On the problems of the 8-inch/55 guns of the heavy cruiser "Des Moines" when firing at long distances

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On the problems of the 8-inch/55 guns of the heavy cruiser "Des Moines" when firing at long distances

This article is heavily laden with mathematical calculations, mean deviations, dispersion ellipses, and other tangents. Therefore, for those esteemed readers who don't have the time to delve into all these subtleties, I will immediately present the conclusions.

Unlike the 220mm/65 guns of the Soviet Project 66 cruiser, artillery The De Moines was ill-suited for long-range combat. Due to its ballistic properties and the large vertical dispersion of its shells ("mortar ballistics"), the accuracy of American 203mm/55 guns at ranges of 100 and 150 kbt was approximately 2 and 2,5 times inferior to that of the Soviet 220mm/65 guns, respectively.

For those esteemed readers who have the time and desire to understand the issue, I suggest considering some of the features of long-distance shooting.

Scatter Ellipse


The concept of dispersion is familiar to absolutely everyone who has ever encountered or theoretically studied firearms. weaponIf, say, a cannon is stationary and fires several shots, the shells won't all land uniformly on the aiming point, but will fall around it with some dispersion. The reason for this is quite obvious. If we were firing a cannon in some ideal world, where it were possible to ensure absolute accuracy of each shot, then yes, the shells would land perfectly, like Robin Hood's arrows. Legend has it that Robin Hood could hit the target with one arrow and then split the first one with the second.

But in reality, shots will always vary. Projectiles, no matter how you handle them, will always have slight differences in mass and shape; the propellant powder in the charges will also vary, albeit slightly, in mass and composition; the effect of wind on the flight of each projectile will be slightly different than on the previous ones, and so on. Therefore, the projectiles don't fall into a single crater, but rather fall over a specific area shaped like an ellipse, the center of which is the aiming point. This is, in fact, the dispersion ellipse.

Since the dispersion follows a normal distribution of random variables, the probability of a projectile hitting a particular part of the ellipse varies. If we superimpose a grid on the dispersion ellipse, the lines of which divide the ellipse into eight parts longitudinally and eight parts transversely, the number of hits in each resulting part will be as follows:


The distance between two nearest lines dividing the dispersion ellipse along is called the median (or probable) directional deviation (or lateral deviation), and between transverse lines – the median range deviation.


There's also the concept of vertical mean deviation, and here's the gist. Generally speaking, the dispersion ellipse of artillery shells is the ellipse formed by the shells' fall in the horizontal plane. But shell trajectories also form a dispersion ellipse in the vertical plane.


As you might guess, the mean deviations of this vertical ellipse are called vertical mean deviations.

On the dependence of dispersion on the range and speed of a projectile's flight


It's interesting to see how dispersion changes depending on the projectile's range and velocity. For illustration purposes, I used firing tables for a domestic 180mm naval gun: the projectiles are the same, but in one case, the data is given for a boosted propellant charge accelerating the projectile to 920 m/s, while in the other, it's for a propellant charge providing a muzzle velocity of 800 m/s. Note: in the firing tables, incidence angles are given in degrees and arcminutes (1 degree = 60 arcminutes), and mean deviations are given in fathoms (1 fathom = 6 feet or 182,88 cm), but for the reader's convenience, I've converted them to fractions of a degree and meters.


This example is convenient because the tables were compiled for the same projectiles, so their ballistic quality doesn't distort the results. So what do we see?

First. It's quite obvious that a projectile with a higher muzzle velocity always has a smaller angle of incidence. This is understandable, since the trajectory of a projectile with a muzzle velocity of 920 m/h is flatter than that of the same projectile with a muzzle velocity of 800 m/s—when fired at the same distance, of course.

Second. The mean range deviation, and therefore the major axis of the dispersion ellipse, certainly increases with range, but remains virtually the same for both "fast" and "slow" projectiles. That is, all other things being equal, the projectile's initial velocity has no noticeable effect on the major axis of its dispersion ellipse.

The third. The lateral mean deviation is small and, one might say, insignificant even at long ranges, but it is smaller for a projectile with a higher initial velocity. This, again, is perfectly understandable, since such a projectile travels the distance to the target in less time and is therefore less exposed to the effects of, for example, wind.

Fourth, and most importantly. The vertical mean deviation of a projectile with a lower velocity is significantly greater and increases faster than that of a projectile with a higher velocity.

At a range of 50 kbt, the "slow" projectile's range is 1,35 times greater than that of the "fast" projectile; at 100 kbt, it's 1,55 times greater; and at 150 kbt, it's a whopping 1,8 times greater! This factor is crucial for assessing the hit probability of various artillery systems at long ranges.

Let me explain with an example: let's say our Project 26-bis cruiser, armed with 9×180mm guns, opened fire on a 120-meter-long, 20-meter-high shield from a distance of 150 cables. Let's also assume that the cruiser's fire control system and gun aiming mechanisms provided an ideal aiming point—precisely at the center of the shield—and the cruiser fired 100 shells at the target. Let's assume the firing was carried out with high-powered shells.

In this case, the cruiser's shells will hit a vertically aligned ellipse with a major axis of 643,7 m (vertical mean deviation of 80,5 m x 8) and a minor axis of 86,3 m (lateral mean deviation of 10,8 m x 8). Since the shield is wider than the dispersion ellipse, and the aiming point is in the center of the shield, lateral deviation is not a problem; no matter how the shell deviates, it will hit the shield, but in terms of elevation...

A vertical mean deviation of 80,5 meters means that 50% of all projectiles will hit (or, more accurately, would have hit, if not for the water) a 161-meter-high zone centered on the aiming point. The remaining 50% of projectiles will fly above or below this zone.


And if we assume that within these 161 meters the shells are distributed evenly (which is not entirely true, but let’s not get into the weeds), then it turns out that with such an ideal aim, 50 × 20/161 = 6,25 shells will hit a 20-meter-high shield, that is, 6–7 shells.

Let's now imagine the same firing conditions: a range of 150 kbt, a 120 x 20 m shield, the aiming point precisely at the shield's center, and 100 shells fired, but with a muzzle velocity of 800 m/s instead of 920 m/s. In this case, the vertical mean deviation would no longer be 80,5 m, but 144,5 m. Consequently, 50% of all shells would be distributed not over 161 m, but over 289 m, meaning that only 3-4 shells would hit the shield, not 6-7.

It turns out that the chances of a projectile with a lower muzzle velocity hitting the target decrease significantly more rapidly with increasing firing range than those of the same projectile with a higher muzzle velocity. This is essentially pure geometry, since the mean range deviation is related to the mean vertical deviation through the projectile's angle of incidence. It's enough to consider the case where dispersion caused a shift in the projectile's trajectory by one mean range deviation.


We'll see a right triangle, the legs of which are precisely the median deviations—the vertical and the range deviation. Accordingly, while the median range deviation remains virtually constant, the vertical deviation increases with increasing projectile incidence angle: the relationship between the median deviations in this case is close to the tangent of the projectile's angle of incidence. As a first approximation, we can say that for projectiles with similar dispersion ellipses, the probability of hitting the target varies proportionally to their tangent of the angle of incidence.

On the dispersion ellipse of the main caliber guns of the De Moines and the Project 66 cruiser


Here we will talk exclusively about the “horizontal” dispersion ellipse, that is, about the mean deviations in range and lateral ones.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any data on the dispersion ellipse of the American cruiser's 203mm/55 guns. Even if I had, a head-on comparison with the Soviet cruiser's 220mm/65 gun mount would have been impossible—development of the Soviet gun was at such a stage that it would have been difficult to determine the dispersion ellipse of the mass-produced version.

Nevertheless, it should be assumed that the dispersion ellipse of the Soviet weapon would have been smaller or, at worst, equal to the American one. Why is this?

In his work "Course of Naval Tactics: Artillery and Armor," Professor L. G. Goncharov of the Red Army Naval Academy cites V. A. Unikovskiy's formulas for calculating mean deviations. These formulas yielded good agreement with the results of firing ranges. I will not bore the esteemed reader with the mathematics of these formulas and will proceed directly to the conclusions: all other things being equal, the higher the kinetic energy of a projectile, the smaller its dispersion ellipse.

For example, L. G. Goncharov uses V. A. Unikovskiy's formulas for two potential guns: one is 203 mm, with a projectile weight of 128,3 kg and a muzzle velocity of 914 m/s, and the other is 190 mm, with a projectile weight of 90,7 kg and a muzzle velocity of 915 m/s, respectively. The kinetic energy at the moment the 203 mm projectile leaves the barrel is 1,41 times greater. And, for example, at a distance of 100 kbt, the mean range deviation of the 203 mm gun will be 42 fathoms, while for the 190 mm gun it will be 47 fathoms.

Thus, the kinetic energy of a Soviet 220mm/65 gun, fired at a muzzle velocity of 985 m/s, would be 1,93 times higher than that of an American 152 kg projectile fired at a muzzle velocity of 762 m/s, while that of a 176 kg projectile fired at a muzzle velocity of 800 m/s would be 1,27 times higher. Accordingly, all other things being equal (similar ballistic coefficients, equal shell and propellant quality, etc.), the dispersion ellipse of the Project 66 cruisers' guns would be smaller than that of the De Moines' guns.

But we'll assume that the Soviet chemical and mechanical engineering industries were somewhat inferior to the American ones, and that all other factors were not equal. And we'll also assume that the dispersion patterns of the guns of Soviet and American cruisers would have been approximately the same.

Assessing the firing accuracy of American and Soviet cruisers


Based on the above, with an ideal sight, the probabilities of hitting a target of the same size for Soviet and American guns are related as the tangents of the angles of incidence of their projectiles.


Accordingly, all other things being equal, when firing shells with a muzzle velocity of 985 m/s, the Soviet cruiser's hit rate at a range of 100 kbt will be twice as high, and at 150 kbt, almost two and a half times higher than that of the American cruiser—simply due to the latter's greater vertical dispersion. When firing 176 kg shells with a muzzle velocity of 800 m/s, the accuracy advantage is not as great, but still remains: at 100 and 150 kbt, the 220 mm/65 guns will provide hit rates of 1,22 and 1,46 times, respectively.

Could the American cruiser compensate for the lower accuracy of its guns with a higher rate of fire?

The American cruiser's turrets, with their automatic loading, were capable of firing 10 rounds per minute per gun. The Soviet turrets, however, were designed to fire 3,2 rounds per gun at elevations above 20 degrees and 5 rounds per minute per gun at elevations of 20 degrees and below. So, when firing shells at a muzzle velocity of 985 m/s, the elevation angle, even at 150 kbt, was 17,08 degrees. In other words, the Soviet Project 66 cruiser would have lost to the De Moines in rate of fire by half, but in accuracy, it would have been 2,48 times better. It turns out that, all other things being equal, in, say, five minutes of deadly fire, the American "machine gun" would have received 24% more hits than the "slow-firing" Soviet cruiser!

To compensate for its relatively low long-range accuracy, the De Moines would have had to close to the Soviet cruiser at 100 cables. At this point, the De Moines' guns would have had a hit rate roughly half that of the Soviet cruisers, but would have fired twice as often—and the number of hits on the ships in a given time frame would have been equal.

Here, of course, one could argue that the De Moines is noticeably smaller in size than the Project 66 cruiser. But in reality, this advantage for the American ship isn't that great. The Soviet cruiser is certainly longer—252,5 meters versus the De Moines' 218,4 meters. But this isn't particularly significant, given that the dispersion ellipses of their guns, 150 cables or smaller, fit on both the American and Soviet cruisers. And in terms of hull height, the cruisers were quite comparable: the Project 66's bow was planned to be 17,6 meters, while the De Moines' was approximately 17,7 meters, with the midship and stern heights, respectively, being 13,8 and 13,7 meters, and 15,2 and 14 meters.

And given the Soviet cruiser's greater draft, the De Moines' freeboard was even higher than that of the Project 66 cruiser. And again, our cruiser was wider—25,7 meters versus the De Moines' 23,3 meters—but this was offset by the fact that, thanks to its anti-torpedo protection, the Soviet cruiser could withstand shell explosions at a much shorter range than the American one without compromising its combat effectiveness.

I've read numerous comments that the De Moines, thanks to its rapid fire, could literally shower an opposing Project 66 cruiser with shells, destroy its radar and other fire control equipment, and thereby achieve victory. However, calculations suggest something entirely different: at a range of 100-150 cables, all other things being equal, the American cruiser would receive more hits per minute than the Soviet one, because the American hit rate, due to the greater dispersion of their guns, would be significantly lower than the Soviet one. But that's only half the Americans' problem in a hypothetical engagement between the De Moines and a Project 66 cruiser.

The fact is, it's often overlooked that the magazines of the most advanced US heavy cruiser are far from limitless. The De Moines, with a rate of fire of 10 rounds per minute, should have expended its ammunition in 15 minutes—as far as I know, this cruiser carried 150 rounds per gun. The Project 66 cruiser had less—only 100 rounds per gun. And although our ship could have carried more than the standard ammunition load, let's stick with the standard ammunition load. With a rate of fire of 5 rounds per minute at a range of 150 kbt, the Project 66 cruiser could expend its ammunition in 20 minutes.

That is, in a decisive battle, and assuming both ships achieved a combat rate of fire close to their technical specifications, both the De Moines and the Project 66 risked rapidly exhausting their ammunition. But in this case, having fired all 900 shells, the Soviet cruiser, at a range of 100 cables, would have hit the De Moines with 33,3% more shells than it would have received from the De Moines, which had expended 1350 shells. In other words, as long as the De Moines retained its ammunition and was firing, the number of hits on both cruisers would have been equal.



However, the De Moines ran out of shells faster, and when its guns fell silent, the Soviet cruiser still had shells left to continue firing and scoring hits. And with both ships' ammunition completely exhausted in a battle with 150 kbt, the Project 66 would have scored 67% more hits than the American cruiser!

Of course, using reduced charges, giving the 176 kg Soviet shells a velocity of 800 m/s, the picture would have been entirely different. In this case, to fire at a range of 150 kbt, our 220 mm/65 gun would have required an elevation of 29,11 degrees, and its rate of fire would have dropped to 3,2 rounds per second. Then the De Moines would have fired three times as many shells per minute as the Soviet cruiser. And the accuracy gap wouldn't have been as great—not 2,48 times, but only 1,46 times. Consequently, the Americans, say, in five minutes of intense live-fire, would have scored 2,14 times more hits on our ship than they would have received on their own.

However, even here, with the ammunition fully expended, the number of hits on the Soviet and American cruisers would remain comparable - the Americans had 1,5 times more shells, and ours would shoot 1,48 times more accurately.

Was there any point in sacrificing the number of hits for the sake of the more "hovering" ballistics of domestic shells?

Conclusions


These were already presented to the esteemed reader at the very beginning of the article. The American 203mm/55 gun should by no means be considered inferior—but it was not designed for firing at the long ranges that the Soviet 220mm/65 gun could handle.

It's worth remembering that the Americans decided to implement automatic loading for the main battery of their heavy cruisers based on the results of night battles, which took place at relatively close ranges. The impact of vertical midpoint deviation on these battles was negligible.

To illustrate this fact, let's again turn to the firing tables for the domestic 180-mm gun. According to the data cited above, at a range of 50 kbt, the vertical mean deviation of a 180-mm shell, even at a velocity of 800 m/s, was only 4,9 m. Consequently, our gun was capable of placing 50% of its shells within a 10-meter vertical interval centered on the aiming point. Moreover, for an American 8-inch shell, which had 1,41 times greater kinetic energy, the vertical mean deviation would have been even smaller, and the accuracy, correspondingly, higher.

Therefore, in the night battles of World War II, at relatively short ranges, the Des Moines truly became a god of naval warfare, capable of tearing any heavy cruiser to pieces. But with the development of radar, close-quarters engagements are clearly a thing of the past—but the American "machine gun" artillery was less than ideal for long-range engagements.

Продолжение следует ...

P.S. De Moines Firing Tables for 100 and 150 Kbt




PPS Flatness Payment


So, guns with a "mortar-like" trajectory had significantly worse accuracy at long ranges. But did they have any advantages? Yes.

In the table of median deviations for the 180mm domestic artillery system, in the column "Adjusting the sight to increase range by 1 cable (deg.)," I indicated how much the sight should be increased to shift the aiming point (in range) by 1 cable. This means, for example, that according to the firing tables, the elevation angle for firing a shell with a muzzle velocity of 800 m/s at 50 cables was 5 degrees and 24 minutes of arc, and when firing at 51 cables, it was 5 degrees and 33 minutes of arc, or 9 minutes of arc or 0,15 degrees more.

The first thing we see is that the greater the distance, the smaller the range error caused by the sighting error. That is, if the gunner, when firing a shell with a muzzle velocity of 800 m/s, makes a mistake and sets the sights 0,15 degrees too far, then when firing at 50 cables, the aiming point will shift 1 cable further than the point they were aiming at. But when firing at 150 cables, the shift will be only 0,21 cables.

Furthermore, the table shows that for a projectile with a higher muzzle velocity, the cost of a sighting error is always higher. Thus, when firing at 50 kbt, a 0,1 degree sighting error when firing a projectile with a muzzle velocity of 920 m/s will result in an overshoot of 1 kbt, while with a projectile with a muzzle velocity of 800 m/s, it will only result in an overshoot of 0,67 kbt.

Accordingly, any sighting error, for example, the effect of pitching that is not fully compensated for, will result in a gun firing a projectile with a relatively high initial velocity having a greater range deviation than the same gun firing the same projectile but with a lower initial velocity.

In the old days, when gunners were forced to compensate for the effects of roll manually, this disadvantage of guns with better roll angles could have been significant. But by the time fire control systems "taught" guns to fire at a given roll angle, its impact was reduced to zero. And from that point on, naval guns with better roll angles, all other things being equal, fired more accurately at enemy ships—at any range.
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  1. + 11
    1 October 2026 04: 39
    In theory, this is true: all other things being equal, the higher the velocity, the less external impact after leaving the barrel. But in practice, drawing conclusions based on paper performance characteristics is overly optimistic. For example, Italian battleship and cruiser guns had the highest ballistics among their classmates, while, judging by battle results and memoirs, accuracy was certainly not their strong point. A similar story was with the Soviet 180mm gun.
    1. IVZ
      +8
      1 October 2026 06: 30
      Italian battleship and cruiser guns had the highest ballistics among their classmates, although, judging by battlefield results and memoirs, accuracy was certainly not their strong point. A similar story was with the Soviet 180mm gun.
      The Achilles' heel of the Italian and Soviet turret mounts you're obviously referring to was the placement of the guns in a single cradle with very close interbarrel spacing. Muzzle pressure, when firing a salvo, literally scattered the shells off their intended trajectory. In some US mounts, for example, in three-gun turrets, a slight delay was incorporated into the firing of the central gun to mitigate this effect, despite the considerable interbarrel spacing.
      1. +9
        1 October 2026 06: 54
        Quote: IVZ
        The Achilles heel of the Italian and Soviet turret mounts that you obviously have in mind was the placement of the guns in a single cradle with a very small inter-barrel distance.

        No. The thing is, it only had a negative impact during salvo fire, and no one was forced to use it—in theory, a cruiser with 3x3 guns should fight by alternating between the 4th and 5th gun chambers. This allows the outer guns of the turret to fire without using the middle ones.
        Well, the Italians' problem was with the shells - with normal shells they gave good accuracy
        1. +4
          1 October 2026 08: 05
          Uh... In the case of placing the guns in a single cradle, only at the expense of a significant reduction in the rate of fire. This is true for turrets with individual cradles: while one gun is firing, the other is waving its barrel while reloading.
          1. +2
            1 October 2026 08: 36
            Quote: Grossvater
            In the case of placing guns in one cradle, only at the expense of a significant reduction in the rate of fire.

            But this isn't entirely true, as it only applies in specific cases. For example, when firing to kill, the difference between volleys is minimal, followed by reloading, so the reduction will be measured in seconds. But when zeroing in, you'll have time to reload the guns that fired before the correction arrives, meaning there's no impact on the rate of fire at all.
            1. IVZ
              +3
              1 October 2026 19: 10
              Half-volley firing was widely used, primarily in the British navy. As for the Italian and Soviet navies... In newsreels and photographs from that era (of the cruiser Kirov, the battleship Oktyabrskaya Revolyutsiya, and their sister ships), I thought all the guns on each turret fired. I could be wrong, though.
              1. +4
                1 October 2026 19: 57
                Quote: IVZ
                Half-volley firing was widely used, especially in the English navy.

                And in German. Our artillery regulations prescribed sighting methods that excluded full-volley fire. In fact, we even installed three-gun turrets with four turrets each, aiming for a four-gun salvo.
                But this is not a dogma, of course.
              2. +2
                2 October 2026 12: 16
                Maybe they were just showing off and blasting it on the poster under a nice shot.
        2. IVZ
          +1
          1 October 2026 19: 16
          There was definitely a problem with the shells, but that doesn't negate the negative impact of closely spaced barrels. And I read somewhere that accuracy testing with "correct" shells was done with the gun mounted on a proprietary rig, not with a volley fired from a wild mount. I'll try to find that book.
      2. +2
        1 October 2026 07: 28
        I suppose so, I haven't looked into it. But the point is that trying to impart excessively high muzzle velocity to larger-caliber shells usually leads to problems. Interestingly, I just looked it up and it turns out modern 127/130mm guns still operate in the 800-850 m/s range.
        1. +5
          1 October 2026 07: 46
          Quote: tjeck91
          What's interesting is that I just looked and it turns out that modern 127/130mm guns still operate in the 800-850 m/s range.

          That's true. But keep in mind that modern guns of this caliber require a very high rate of fire, which is hardly possible with a muzzle velocity of 950+ m/s (we'd ruin the barrel). Meanwhile, our 152mm/57 guns on Sverdlov-class cruisers had a warhead of 950 m/s and were very good guns.
      3. +3
        1 October 2026 11: 59
        Quote: IVZ
        The Achilles heel of the Italian and Soviet turret mounts that you obviously have in mind was the placement of the guns in a single cradle with a very small inter-barrel distance.

        That's how it was for almost everyone. The Yankees on Washington battleships switched to separate main gun turrets only starting with the New Mexico. And their battlecruisers only received separate main gun turrets starting with the Wichita.
        Quote: IVZ
        In some US installations, for example, to reduce this effect in three-gun turrets, a slight delay in the firing of the central gun was provided, despite the decent inter-gun distance.

        In theory, there was another way that the British took on their cruise missiles with three-gun main battleships - to "move" the middle barrel inside the turret (by 30 inches on the Towns), thus spreading the shells out when fired without delay coils.

        But this didn't help them – despite the "exotic" design of the main gun, the early Towns had a shell spread of up to 640 meters. And the British were forced to introduce a firing delay as well.
        1. IVZ
          +2
          1 October 2026 19: 01
          Frankly, I thought this design was used to make loading the central gun easier. In three-gun turrets, this presented a bit of a problem. And for accuracy? I didn't even think about it. Thanks.
    2. +8
      1 October 2026 06: 52
      Good morning!
      Quote: tjeck91
      N.P.: Italian battleship and cruiser guns had the highest ballistics among their classmates, although, judging by the results of battles and memoirs, accuracy was definitely not their strong point.

      But the reason was not the ballistics, but the disgusting quality of the shells, which had a large difference in weight.
      1. +5
        1 October 2026 12: 01
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        But the reason was not the ballistics, but the disgusting quality of the shells, which had a large difference in weight.

        Serial shells. wink
        The manufacturer submitted a specially selected batch of shots for testing, so there were no problems.
        1. +3
          1 October 2026 12: 29
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Serial shells.

          I totally agree hi
    3. +6
      1 October 2026 10: 53
      I would like to point out that at the firing range, Italian guns with specially made charges provided fantastic accuracy.
      But the general level of industry did not allow for the provision of the appropriate quality of charges during their bulk production.
      1. +4
        1 October 2026 11: 25
        Quote: Victor Leningradets
        At the firing range, Italian guns with specially made charges provided fantastic accuracy

        As for the fantasy one, I haven't heard of it, but I read somewhere that it was very good.
        1. +3
          1 October 2026 12: 26
          And here is everything according to Feng Shui:
          At a distance of 20000, according to Ansaldo engineers, they had a dispersion in range of 90 m, which, at an incidence angle of 13 degrees, ensured a hit on a target 20 m high.
  2. +6
    1 October 2026 04: 40
    Excellent and detailed research, Andrey, thank you!
    In my opinion, there is another point: firing with enhanced charges significantly increases the barrel's flare, meaning the accuracy of a domestic gun will drop faster than that of an American one.
    1. +5
      1 October 2026 06: 59
      Thank you! hi
      Quote: Aggle
      In my opinion, there is another point: firing with enhanced charges significantly increases the barrel's flare, meaning the accuracy of a domestic gun will drop faster than that of an American one.

      And here's an interesting point: our team planned to achieve a barrel life of 600 rounds for the 220mm/65 gun with a muzzle velocity of 985 m/s. Whether they would have achieved this is anyone's guess, but the fact is that our artillery has made significant strides since the first 180mm gun, and the foolishness of over-boosting is behind us. Perhaps 600 rounds wouldn't have been achieved, but it seems there was no excessive barrel burnout at such velocities.
      1. +2
        1 October 2026 17: 52
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And here is an interesting point - our plan was to achieve the survivability of the 220 mm/65 gun barrel at 600 shots with an initial projectile velocity of 985 m/s.

        There is a big question here about what was taken as the criterion of survivability...
        1. +2
          1 October 2026 18: 03
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          There is a big question here about what was taken as the criterion of survivability...

          Of course, but I'll say it again: hardly anyone would step on the overboosted barrels a second time. 600 is hard to believe, of course, but what if the beaver were cut in half...
          1. +2
            1 October 2026 18: 14
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            I don't really believe in 600, of course, but what if you cut the beaver in half...

            The question, as I said above, is how to count...
            With the same initial data for the German 20,3 cm SK C/34, the Germans fired 610 shots, ours - 600, the Americans - 500.
            But there is one thing...
            After examining the guns at the firing range, our artillerymen recalculated the survivability of the barrels: it came out to 360-380 rounds of live ammunition.
          2. +2
            1 October 2026 20: 44
            You've already brilliantly answered the question about barrel survivability criteria in a series of articles about the Project 26 and Project 26-bis cruisers:
            Until the projectile starts tumbling when fired with a full charge. Dispersion really has nothing to do with it. And the drop in muzzle velocity at the final stage even reverses its sign. Of course, accuracy is no longer an issue when wear is close to critical.
  3. +6
    1 October 2026 06: 20
    So, with increasing combat range, a return to the "lightweight projectile - high muzzle velocity" concept became justified? That's exactly what the Japanese did with the Yamato. The lighter projectile is compensated for by the increased kinetic energy (it depends linearly on mass and quadratically on velocity). And relative the increase in speed (and energy) losses in flight is compensated for absolute an increase in caliber and, consequently, the mass of the projectile (a 460 mm “light” projectile is heavier than a 410 mm “heavy” projectile not by 1,12 times, but, thanks to the square-cube law, by 1,43 times).
    1. +5
      1 October 2026 06: 59
      Quote: Pushkowed
      So, with the increase in combat range, a return to the concept of “light projectile – high muzzle velocity” has become justified?

      Well, oddly enough, yes:))))))
    2. +4
      1 October 2026 10: 58
      Well, yes, but what, do you think that the Germans with their SKC/34 were dumber than a steam locomotive?!
      By the way, the SM-40 shells have a density coefficient (the ratio of the mass of the shell to the cube of the caliber in dm) of 16,53 - a fairly heavy shell.
      1. +3
        1 October 2026 17: 54
        Quote: Victor Leningradets
        Well, yes, but what, do you think that the Germans with their SKC/34 were dumber than a steam locomotive?!

        The Germans don't mean that...
        Their combat range was 65-100 cables.
  4. +6
    1 October 2026 06: 41
    Thanks Andrew!
    Accessible and understandable, and this is the opinion of a person who is more of a theorist than a mathematician.
    So 220 versus 203 is not 13 mm in terms of the thickness of the shell wall, but significantly more in kilograms of explosive.
    Although our 130mm double-barreled automatic cannon on Peter the Great, if only ejected no more iron per minute than a battleship of the First World War.
    Have a nice day, everyone!
    1. +6
      1 October 2026 07: 00
      Greetings, Vladislav!
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      Accessible and understandable

      Phew... You have no idea how much effort it took me to make this article readable and understandable. And even then, I thought I'd failed.
      Thank you:)))))
      1. +3
        1 October 2026 10: 43
        Thanks for the reminder: statistics are the foundation of any science, whether applied or fundamental. Although it's commonly believed that statistics are a lie, they accompany any measurement. If a scientific article doesn't include any indication of statistical processing of the results, it can be safely thrown out. Medicine, chemical analysis, distance measurements—anything—always contain procedures similar to those described in the article, except that they always include the agonizing search for systematic errors that lead to the maximum probability density of "hitting the bull's eye" lying away from the "center of the target." It's all quite tedious; my student memories of confidence intervals and Student's coefficients still linger—but it was worth it. Thanks again to the author from an old chemist.
        1. +4
          1 October 2026 12: 29
          Quote: astepanov
          thank you for reminding

          You're welcome hi
      2. +3
        1 October 2026 13: 58
        I once came across a book published in the 30s. It was called either "Chemistry in Military Affairs" or "Physics...." The author wrote in the preface: "...everything that is easy to read is difficult to write..." That stuck in my mind.
        1. +2
          1 October 2026 15: 58
          Quote: motorized infantryman
          So the author wrote in the preface: "...everything that is easy to read is difficult to write...".

          It's truly so:))))))
  5. +4
    1 October 2026 07: 08
    It's all very interesting, but, expanding on the author's logic: "In reality, everything is different," I'd like to point out that when describing the effect of muzzle velocity on accuracy, the author doesn't take into account the rigidity of the barrel, whose vibrations during firing can negate all the benefits of increased muzzle velocity. A classic example is the British fiasco with the 50-gauge wire-coated 12-inch rifle.
    And yes, a military steamship is a complex, multi-link structure, the effectiveness of which must be assessed taking into account a very large number of parameters.
    P.S. The article is very interesting. We look forward to more!
    1. +2
      1 October 2026 08: 10
      A classic example is the British fiasco with the 50-gauge 12-inch wire.

      The author doesn't mention barrel rigidity, but the analysis is already very detailed. As for the British, if I remember correctly, the question wasn't so much about a specific gun, but about the fundamental difference between wire and rings.
  6. 0
    1 October 2026 07: 10
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    And here's an interesting point: our team planned to achieve a 220mm/65 gun barrel life of 600 rounds with a muzzle velocity of 985 m/s. What they would have achieved is anyone's guess.

    Well, very fortune-telling!
    1. +6
      1 October 2026 07: 34
      Quote: Grossvater
      The author does not take into account the rigidity of the barrel, the vibrations of which during firing can negate all the advantages of increased initial velocity.

      Quote: Grossvater
      Well, very fortune-telling!

      That's true. I assume it was possible to create a 220mm/65 with a muzzle velocity of 985 m/s, at which the barrel wouldn't burn out after 70-90 rounds (I don't think it would be for 600 rounds, but for 250-300...). After all, our guys had already had their share of troubles with re-boosting barrels, and artillery has improved greatly since then. The 152mm/57 was very good, too.
      It is known that a prototype of the 220mm gun was created and tested at the firing range. I have no data that would discredit the system. But I also don't have the firing results.
      1. 0
        2 October 2026 15: 01
        It was possible to create a 220mm/65 with a muzzle velocity of 985 m/s, at which the barrel wouldn't burn out after 70-90 shots (I don't think it would be for 600 rounds, but for 250-300...). After all, our guys had already had their share of troubles with re-boosting barrels, and artillery has improved greatly since then. The 152mm/57 was very good, too.

        Isn't this an overboost - n/s under 1000 m/s with a relatively heavy projectile?
        The pressure in the channel is 3600 kg/cm2, versus 3200 for 152/57.
        1. 0
          2 October 2026 15: 19
          Quote: Jura 27
          Isn't this an overboost - n/s under 1000 m/s with a relatively heavy projectile?

          Well, how's that? I'm not much of a fan of Shirokorad, but he claims the SM-33 had very good accuracy during testing. And there's a 305mm shell that shoots at 950 m/s.
          1. 0
            4 October 2026 04: 45
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Quote: Jura 27
            Isn't this an overboost - n/s under 1000 m/s with a relatively heavy projectile?

            Well, how's that? I'm not much of a fan of Shirokorad, but he claims the SM-33 had very good accuracy during testing. And there's a 305mm shell that shoots at 950 m/s.

            Accuracy depends on barrel length and the correct choice of rifling, while durability depends on the relative weight of the projectile, the rifling, and the inner tube material. This is clearly over-boosted; the bore pressure of 3600 kg/cm² alone speaks volumes (I can't even remember what other gun had that!).
            The stated 600 shots are probably at 800 m/s and that's just wishful thinking.
            At 985 m/s it would be good if you could shoot one b/c with an acceptable drop in N/S of 4 percent.
            1. 0
              4 October 2026 10: 30
              Quote: Jura 27
              Here there is a clear over-forcing, the pressure in the channel alone is 3600 kg/cm2.

              Are you sure it was exactly like that? Navveps says so, yes, but...
              Quote: Jura 27
              The stated 600 shots are probably at a m/s of 800 m/s.

              No, exactly at 985 m/s.
              1. 0
                4 October 2026 13: 47
                Are you sure it was exactly like that? Navveps says so, yes, but...

                I don’t know about the navips, but ABSh has exactly 3600 kg/cm2.
                No, exactly at 985 m/s.

                It's fantastic!!! Well, unless the inner tube is made of some kind of "iridium-coated titanium" or something similar like adamantium.
              2. 0
                4 October 2026 15: 28
                Sure, it looks fantastic. But the same was said about the famous L7 105mm/56. But it works!
  7. +3
    1 October 2026 07: 44
    In the work of Professor L. G. Goncharov of the Red Army Naval Academy, "Course of Naval Tactics. Artillery and Armor," V. A. Unikovskiy's formulas for calculating mean deviations are presented.

    I wonder how Unikovskiy's formulas have improved the accuracy of domestic guns, or is this just another hoax of pseudoscience for the sake of pseudoscience? I'll say for myself, it hasn't. It'll only tire your brain of calculating mean deviations. Could someone explain the usefulness of these calculations beyond statistical inferences?
    1. +2
      1 October 2026 07: 49
      Quote: Konnick
      I wonder how Unikovskiy's formulas have influenced the accuracy of domestic guns, or is this just another hoax of pseudoscience for the sake of pseudoscience?

      Actually, they shouldn't have. These formulas allow us to calculate the dispersion of projectiles given certain initial conditions.
      Quote: Konnick
      I'll say myself that there's no way, only the brain will get tired of calculating the mean deviations.

      Perhaps before we start calculating, we should first understand what exactly we're calculating? Or is this just another ploy to pump out pseudo-calculations for the sake of pseudo-calculations?
      1. +1
        1 October 2026 07: 58
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Actually, they shouldn't have. These formulas allow us to calculate the dispersion of projectiles given certain initial conditions.

        What's the point of this? And what will the dispersion be if the formula doesn't take into account wind, humidity, or temperature, and instead calculates a fait accompli...
        The heavier and faster the projectile, the less dispersion, but without a formula, this was a mystery? It's already clear.
        1. +3
          1 October 2026 08: 03
          Quote: Konnick
          What's the point of this? And what will the dispersion be if the formula doesn't take into account wind, humidity, or temperature, and instead calculates a fait accompli...

          Well, tell me how the wind affects dispersion... laughing
          For reference: wind and temperature are taken into account in firing corrections. That is, the wind certainly blows the projectile to the side, but this results in a shift in the dispersion ellipse, not an increase in it.
          1. +2
            1 October 2026 08: 17
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Quote: Konnick
            What's the point of this? And what will the dispersion be if the formula doesn't take into account wind, humidity, or temperature, and instead calculates a fait accompli...

            Well, tell me how the wind affects dispersion... laughing
            For reference: wind and temperature are taken into account in firing corrections. That is, the wind certainly blows the projectile to the side, but this results in a shift in the dispersion ellipse, not an increase in it.

            Enough already...the wind is such a constant value both in direction and speed laughing Could you please tell me if anyone in the world, other than the Russian fleet and Unikovskiy, has bothered with the median dispersion formula?
            1. +3
              1 October 2026 08: 32
              Quote: Konnick
              Enough already...the wind is such a constant value both in direction and speed

              Actually, yes. It's clear that the wind blows in gusts, but the average value is taken—experience shows that this is quite sufficient.
              Quote: Konnick
              Could you please tell me if anyone in the world, other than the Russian fleet and Unikovskiy, has bothered with the formula for median dispersion?

              No one, including Unikovskiy, bothered with the formula for median dispersion, because it was a new word in ballistics.
              In general, there are Unikovskiy's formulas and there are the results of practical shooting, and one contradicts the other. What's the problem?
              1. +1
                1 October 2026 08: 35
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                In general, there are Unikovskiy's formulas and there are the results of practical shooting, and one contradicts the other. What's the problem?

                The problem is... it's simply confusing the mind with completely unnecessary formulas... pseudoscience that doesn't provide any practical results.
                1. +5
                  1 October 2026 08: 38
                  Quote: Konnick
                  The problem is... it's just confusing your brain with completely unnecessary formulas.

                  Nikolai, you don't need them, that's clear, but artillerymen do. Because firing tables are created based on several firings (usually at 4-5 elevation angles), the rest is calculated data. Therefore, having a formula will help determine the mean deviations for any firing range.
                  1. +2
                    1 October 2026 08: 50
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Therefore, having a formula will help determine the average deviations for any shooting distance.

                    What does this mean for practical shooting? Why know mean deviations...these "scientists" like Unikovskiy have infiltrated science and begun turning it into their own fiefdom with a steady income; previously, they were kept within the Pale of Settlement.
                    1. +1
                      1 October 2026 09: 19
                      Quote: Konnick
                      What does this mean for practical shooting? Why is it important to know the mean deviations?

                      At least to calculate the probability of hitting the target. At least to determine the dispersion requirements for the designed weapons.
                      Quote: Konnick
                      These "scientists" like Unikovskiy have infiltrated science and begun to turn it into their own fiefdom with a stable income.

                      In this case it sounds like nonsense.
                      1. 0
                        1 October 2026 09: 26
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        At least to determine the dispersion requirements for the designed weapons

                        What do you mean??? And why???
                      2. +2
                        1 October 2026 09: 27
                        Quote: Konnick
                        What do you mean??? And why???

                        Nikolai, dispersion is a measure of firing accuracy. Therefore, dispersion requirements are one of the most important parameters for newly designed weapons.
                      3. +3
                        1 October 2026 09: 52
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Quote: Konnick
                        What do you mean??? And why???

                        Nikolai, dispersion is a measure of firing accuracy. Therefore, dispersion requirements are one of the most important parameters for newly designed weapons.

                        The accuracy of the designed guns is affected by the precision of the barrel's manufacture, its rigidity, and the quality of the ammunition...the accuracy of the load and projectile weights; the more precise, the higher the accuracy for a given barrel length. These formulas for median dispersion are not taken into account in the design...Well, on ships, the proximity of the barrels in the turret and barrel deflection due to heating also have an impact, and of course, barrel vibrations during firing also play a role.
                      4. +2
                        1 October 2026 09: 55
                        Quote: Konnick
                        The accuracy of the designed guns is influenced by the precision of the barrel, its rigidity and the quality of the ammunition

                        These are just generalities, while the technical specifications should contain specific numbers. These are what formulas provide. Similarly, it's important for tacticians to understand at what range and how many hits can be expected. For ground artillery, this is used to calculate the ammunition expenditure for hitting a target, for example.
    2. +3
      1 October 2026 20: 50
      Could someone please explain the usefulness of these calculations beyond statistical inferences?

      The fact that our cities with district heating systems don't freeze in winter is also the result of statistical inference. Just like any array of functions that can be described mathematically. An alternative is the Monte Carlo method. There are no formulas, but rather statistical repeatability of the result under given conditions.
  8. +2
    1 October 2026 09: 54
    The author only considers direct hits. What about high-explosive fragmentation shells, which will also explode upon impact with water?
    1. -1
      1 October 2026 10: 37
      Quote: Melior
      What about high-explosive fragmentation shells that will explode even when they hit the water?

      What about them? How dangerous is a HE shell whistling 400 meters above a ship's deck?
      1. -1
        1 October 2026 12: 04
        What about the one that exploded short of the plane, 40 meters away?
        1. +1
          1 October 2026 12: 30
          Quote: Melior
          What about the one that exploded short of the plane, 40 meters away?

          Will there be many of those? :)))) You understand that everything written about hitting also applies to near falls.
        2. +2
          1 October 2026 18: 01
          Quote: Melior
          What about the one that exploded short of the plane, 40 meters away?

          Well, it will shower the enemy with shrapnel, maybe injure someone, maybe break some rope.
          The most dangerous hits to the citadel involve penetration into the armored volume.
  9. 0
    1 October 2026 10: 26
    And from that moment on, naval guns with better flatness, all other things being equal, fired at enemy ships more accurately – at any distance.

    This is unlikely to be the case at or near maximum ranges. At these distances, the primary range deviation decreases, and the primary target projection is no longer vertical but horizontal.
    1. +3
      1 October 2026 10: 43
      Quote: Kostadinov
      This is unlikely to be the case for maximum distances or those close to them.

      This is true
      Quote: Kostadinov
      At these distances, the main deviation in range is reduced, and the main projection of the target is no longer vertical but horizontal.

      To estimate the probability of hitting, the horizontal projection is converted to a vertical projection, which the projectile's trajectory must cross to hit the ship.
      If it's difficult to evaluate theoretically, try it with an example.
  10. +5
    1 October 2026 10: 46
    Dear Andrey!
    First of all, I would like to offer my official apologies for my insolence during my trip regarding the fate of the Russian Empire’s fleet.
    You have approached the issue of accuracy/rate of fire of these two cruisers quite responsibly, and, as they say, you are moving in the right direction.
    A few notes:
    - Soviet naval gunpowder technology in the 50s was significantly superior to that of the US in the late 30s, both in its genesis and due to the adoption of captured German technology. The Americans neglected this expertise in naval artillery due to shifting priorities;
    - the accuracy of the fired SM-40 guns was not inferior to the accuracy of the German SKC/34 series guns, so it can be stated that, theoretically, the Pr. 66 cruiser was armed with a more advanced ballistic system than its opponent;
    - the SM-40 and 8"/55 Mk16 projectiles are the same not only in terms of ballistic factor, but also in terms of transverse load, which significantly simplifies modeling;
    - the rate of fire of the SM-40 guns changes smoothly from 5,8 to 3,2 rounds per minute from the loading angle up to 50 degrees, and over almost the entire combat range (100 - 164 cables) it is 5,2 - 4,4 rounds per minute.
    And separately - thank you very much for continuing!
    1. +4
      1 October 2026 11: 23
      Good afternoon, dear Victor!
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      I offer my formal apologies

      Accepted:))))
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      A few notes:

      I will accept them with pleasure, but I will be extremely grateful for the sources of this information.
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      And separately - thank you very much for continuing!

      You're welcome!
    2. +2
      1 October 2026 18: 04
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      - the accuracy of the fired SM-40 guns was not inferior to the accuracy of the German SKC/34 series guns,

      In fact, our artillerymen were, so to speak, dissatisfied with the accuracy of the German guns.
      1. +1
        1 October 2026 20: 25
        I understand that Titushkin and Shirokorad are not authorities for you, but they both, without collusion, take SKC/34 as a standard.
        1. 0
          2 October 2026 07: 54
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          but they both, without collusion, take SKC/34 as a standard.

          I have more faith in the reports of the Artillery Group, which studied German naval guns.
          Moreover, a standard is a thing for comparing objects that are similar in characteristics.
          As far as I remember, the Red Navy only had the 8"/45" naval gun and the 8"/50" naval gun in service. Compared to them, a gun 30 years "newer" would likely be the standard.
          Probably the comrades you mentioned were comparing the German 8" with our 180-mm B-1-P... :)
          1. +1
            2 October 2026 09: 51
            I have more faith in the results of the firing of the Admiral Hipper and the Prince Eugen, both in naval battles and against our troops in 1944-1945.
            But in fact, the 38-cm/52 SKC/34 was considered the standard. Allegedly, at OUR firing range, a dispersion of 1/400 was achieved at combat ranges.
            1. 0
              2 October 2026 10: 21
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              I have more faith in the results of the firing of the Admiral Hipper and the Prince Eugen, both in naval battles and against our troops in 1944-1945.

              As for naval battles, the data is difficult to verify, and shooting at the shore is a priori shooting at squares.

              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              But in general, the standard was called 38 cm/52 SKC/34.

              :)

              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              Allegedly, at OUR testing ground, a dispersion of 1/400 was obtained at combat distances.

              Question: where did they get the "live" barrel?
              The second problem was that our specialists considered the accuracy of 1/200 for the German "gun and shell" combination to be unacceptable. They believed it should have been higher.
              1. +2
                2 October 2026 10: 59
                The second problem is that our specialists considered the accuracy of 1/200 for the German "gun + projectile" system to be unacceptable.

                Well, Maxim, think about it yourself:
                - Were the Germans satisfied with such accuracy?!
                The barrel's energy density is only 13,84 tm/dm³. The manufacturing standards are high, both in terms of the gun itself and the ammunition. And suddenly, such an Italian-style tarantella!
                Something's not right here.
                I think I read about the proving ground in Amirkhanov's book. It was about rearming Project 69 ships with twin-gun turrets from unbuilt German cruisers O, P, and Q.
                1. +1
                  2 October 2026 11: 23
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  - Were the Germans satisfied with such accuracy?!

                  The Germans, apparently, were satisfied with everything...
                  Accuracy better than 1/200 is perhaps some inflated expectations of our artillerymen.

                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  and ammunition for it

                  There's also something interesting here: the overall weight tolerance for the projectile was 1,6...1,7 kg for an 8" projectile. 1,3...1,4% seems like a pittance, but it's an additional margin of error in the calculations.

                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  And I think I read about the landfill in Amirhanov’s article.

                  This is most likely about the visit of our specialists to the testing ground in Meppen in the winter of 39-40.

                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  This was the topic of rearming Project 69 with twin-gun turrets from unbuilt German cruisers O, P, Q.

                  The project was heading nowhere: although the project was being actively reworked, even by the second half of June 1941 there was no definitive understanding whether it was worth pursuing at all. The hardware hadn't been delivered by the start of the war.
                  The Germans then used the remaining turrets and guns to rebuild the Gneisenau, and after the New Year's battle, everything went into coastal defense.
                  1. 0
                    2 October 2026 15: 18
                    Thank you, I learned a lot of interesting things!
                    It seems that the Germans were indeed preparing for close/medium range combat, where range dispersion is of little relevance.
                    1. +1
                      2 October 2026 16: 15
                      Quote: Victor Leningradets
                      Thank you, I learned a lot of interesting things!

                      It's my pleasure...

                      Quote: Victor Leningradets
                      It seems that the Germans were indeed preparing for close/medium range combat.

                      That's right... Nothing has changed since Jutland.
                      The decisive battle distance for ships of all classes is 13...18 thousand meters.
                      Opening fire was permitted only at a completely visible target.
                      Therefore, I have a suspicion that on the morning of May 24th, Lütjens was not shocked by the prospect of a battle with battleships, but simply waited for the British to completely emerge from behind the horizon, while Schneider and Lindemann were "walking on the ceiling"...
  11. 0
    1 October 2026 11: 28
    Unlike the 220mm/65 guns of the Soviet Project 66 cruiser, the De Moines' artillery was ill-suited for long-range combat. Due to its ballistic properties and the large vertical dispersion of shells ("mortar ballistics"), the accuracy of the American 203mm/55 guns at ranges of 100 and 150 kbt was approximately 2 and 2,5 times inferior to the Soviet 220mm/65 guns, respectively.

    The sturgeon needs to be reduced... at ranges like 25 km, which is a medium range, our gun's flat trajectory will have a smaller vertical dispersion than a mortar trajectory, but a greater horizontal dispersion... and comparing guns with a 20-year difference in development is incorrect, especially since this is the maximum range for the American gun, while the Soviet gun's stated range of 50 km was only theoretical. The North Caucasus Military District currently uses tanks for indirect fire, but since they fire at a flat trajectory, a standard 122mm howitzer at the same range on a mortar trajectory is much more accurate... Theorists...
    1. +5
      1 October 2026 12: 35
      Quote: Konnick
      The sturgeon needs to be reduced...at distances like 25 km, which is the average range, the flat trajectory of our gun will have less vertical dispersion than with a mortar trajectory, but more horizontal dispersion

      No.
      I specifically gave you an example of a firing table for 180mm guns—the shells are the same, but the muzzle velocities are different. The dispersion over range will be comparable.
      Quote: Konnick
      and comparing weapons with a 20-year difference in development is incorrect

      I'm comparing the guns of specific ships - DeMoine and 66. Who's to blame that the Americans installed old guns on the Demon?
      Quote: Konnick
      and for the Soviet one, the declared range of 50 km was only in theory.

      Actually, the gun was fired at the firing range.
      Quote: Konnick
      then a regular 122 mm howitzer along a mortar trajectory at the same distance is much more accurate... Theorists...

      Precisely theorists. Those who know the theory, but you don't want to learn it. That's why you don't understand the difference between hitting targets in the air defense zone and hitting a ship at sea.
  12. +1
    1 October 2026 11: 33
    Thank you for the article, everything is presented in an easy-to-understand language!
    It is true that there are doubts regarding the errors and corrections for the aerodynamic properties of the projectiles, their rotation speed, temperature, and possibly a host of other factors...
    I read somewhere that near Leningrad, for example, our troops heated up the shells before loading them)))
    1. +2
      1 October 2026 12: 07
      If I remember correctly, they are not shells, but charges.
    2. +3
      1 October 2026 12: 36
      Quote: Dmitry24
      It is true that there are doubts regarding the errors and corrections for the aerodynamic properties of the projectiles, their rotation speed, temperature, and possibly a host of other factors...

      But here everything is simple - these errors are taken into account by separate shooting corrections:)))
    3. +2
      1 October 2026 18: 06
      Quote: Dmitry24
      I read somewhere that near Leningrad, for example, our troops heated up the shells before loading them)))

      As was rightly noted, the charges were heated: this allowed the firing range to be increased slightly.
  13. +2
    1 October 2026 12: 06
    As usual - to the point and informative...
    1. +3
      1 October 2026 12: 36
      Quote: doktorkurgan
      As usual - to the point and informative...

      Thank you! drinks
  14. -1
    1 October 2026 12: 53
    ...for those esteemed readers who don't have the time to delve into all these subtleties, I will immediately present the conclusions.
    Unlike the 220mm/65 guns of the Soviet Project 66 cruiser, the De Moines' artillery was ill-suited for long-range combat. Due to its ballistic properties and the large vertical dispersion of shells ("mortar ballistics"), the accuracy of the American 203mm/55 guns at ranges of 100 and 150 kbt was approximately 2 and 2,5 times inferior to the Soviet 220mm/65 guns, respectively.
    Hmm, it's not even like there's an "owl on the globe" here; there's an owl (Des Moines), but no globe (Project 66)...
    request
    Very strange belay Conclusion: a gun in a single prototype, with unclear characteristics of the barrel and shells in the series, on a ship that was never built with an unrealized fire control system... better laughing "dodymivgego" until the early 70s "Newport News"... at a long distance...
    lol
    Oh, how the author loves "our enormous plans"!
    fellow
    But for now, the "battle of '66 against Des Moines" is epic soldier doesn't measure up to mine love The beloved "battle of the Russian Air Force against Europe" (the F-35s are non-operational there, and there is no agreement between the countries), which is also our victory: "Since 2,177 is significantly more than 1,330, it would seem that the air forces of European NATO member countries are significantly stronger than the Russian Aerospace Forces. But if you dig deeper lol a little deeper, then everything becomes completely different feel definitely.
    ...
    But that's not all. It's not enough to just have planes; you also have to control them. And if the Russian Aerospace Forces are under a unified command and capable fellow from the very beginning of the conflict to act as a single entity, then the air forces of the European NATO members (we listed the air forces of 19 (!) countries) did nothing of the sort laughing they don't represent themselves. But this is very important. Of course, NATO countries conduct joint training of their air forces, but it's unlikely crying whether they are sufficiently intensive and widespread to ensure the kind of coordination and interaction of aviation that is possible within the Air Force of one country.
    ...
    Until recently laughing NATO aviation had a certain superiority in tactical control, missile weapons and electronic warfare systems, and also in pilot training. But it is common knowledge Yes , which is very large in the 2011-2020 State Defense Program Yes attention is paid to the issues of communications and troop control, so we can expect that even if we are not equal lol on this issue, at least they reduced it lol lag. The situation with missile weapons is also gradually stabilizing. feel , for example, by 2020 we should expect a significant number of RVV-SD missiles to enter service. As for electronic warfare systems, there is a complete lag here. laughing liquidated lol , and it can be assumed with a high degree of probability that now in the catch-up laughing laughing laughing It turned out to be NATO fellow The situation regarding combat training has also improved significantly...
    ...
    ...the author of this article may Yes conclude that the Russian Aerospace Forces (given the availability of a sufficient number of trained pilots) may in the very near future achieve not just parity laughing with the air forces of European NATO countries, but even not bad ones laughing chances of gaining superiority laughing in the air at the initial stage of a hypothetical military conflict."

    https://topwar.ru/130894-rossiya-protiv-nato-sootnoshenie-sil-taktichekoy-aviacii.html"
    1. +3
      1 October 2026 13: 05
      Quote: Wildcat
      The Russian Aerospace Forces (given a sufficient number of trained pilots) could in the very near future achieve not only parity with the air forces of European NATO countries, but even a good chance of achieving air superiority at the initial stage of a hypothetical military conflict.

      And what didn't come true?:)))))
      Quote: Wildcat
      a single prototype cannon, with unknown characteristics of the barrel and shells, on a ship that was never built and with an unrealized fire control system

      I have already written about the control system -
      https://topwar.ru/290028-o-sistemah-upravlenija-ognem-otechestvennogo-flota-v-pervoj-polovine-proshlogo-stoletija.html
      Even what was on the Sverdlovs already brought our ships very close to the American ones.
      Artillery culture in the military and post-war USSR was very high, leading to the development of such successful weapons as the 152mm/57 gun, also made by Sverdlov, with a muzzle velocity of 950 m/s with a live charge (not a heavy one). So, to argue that the 220mm/65's performance figures are unrealistic... is certainly possible. If there's evidence.
      So, I have a firm foundation in facts. What about you? Emoticons?
      1. -2
        1 October 2026 13: 22
        And what didn't come true?:)))))
        And how it came true! We're bombing all of Europe at will! We have air superiority NATO hasn't even dreamed of since Desert Storm! And remember how many enemy MiG-29s we've destroyed?!
        good
        That is to say, I have a firm foundation in facts.

        laughing lol drinks good fellow good
        Oh, I haven't laughed like that since Saturday.
        Compare not even design documentation, but something at the level of R&D and design and survey papers with the actual series.... The author has been consistent in his arguments since 2017 - the year of victory over the European Air Forces.
        good good good
        What do you have? Emoticons?
        They're running out already!!! laughing lol
        And the artillery culture in the military and post-war USSR was very high and led to the emergence, for example, of such successful weapons as the 152-mm/57 gun of the same Sverdlovs with an initial velocity of 950 m/s with a combat charge (not enhanced combat).
        Aha, how culture has grown according to the culture's own data...
        And what does the 152mm gun have to do with it? When analyzing the data for the 220mm gun, the only one that didn't leave the testing range, it's unclear. This could be further justified by arguing for the USSR's overall superiority, "because the TT is the best."
        1. +2
          1 October 2026 13: 33
          Quote: Wildcat
          And how it came true!

          So what's the question then? Or do you seriously think that those one and a half aircraft with problematic pilots that Germany and England can get into the air will break us over their knees? Or have you decided that our inability to suppress Ukraine's air defenses is a refutation of my words and a confirmation of the superiority of Western air forces (excluding the US)?!!!
          Quote: Wildcat
          Oh, I haven't laughed like that since Saturday.

          Truly. I haven't laughed like this in a long time.
          Quote: Wildcat
          Not even design documentation, but something at the level of R&D and design and survey papers

          These "R&D and PIR papers" placed the very first salvo at a target of 130+ kbps at night, according to radar data.
          In short, if you don't know, that's your right. If you don't want to research the matter, that's also your right. If you're used to making judgments based on "personal impressions" without analysis or facts, that's not prohibited by law either.
          But why make a fuss?
          1. -3
            1 October 2026 13: 46
            Or do you seriously think that those one and a half aircraft with problematic pilots that Germany and England can get into the air will crush us over their knees? Or have you decided that our inability to suppress Ukraine's air defenses is a refutation of my words and confirmation of the superiority of Western air forces (excluding the US)?!!!
            Or have you decided that the Ukrainian Air Force, created from the Soviet legacy and "here you go, what's no use to me, like the F-16 being replaced by the F-35," is stronger than the European Air Force? lol
            These "R&D and PIR papers" placed the very first salvo at a target of 130+ kbps at night, according to radar data.
            Please don't engage in demagoguery by "substituting the thesis/subject." You've been told that a 220mm gun, which never left the test range, on a ship that never existed, with a fire control system that, like the ship itself, never existed, cannot be compared with the results of a production ship.
            You are putting forward an argument about "and here is the 152 mm gun" and "These "R&D and PIR papers" placed the very first salvo at a target of 130+ kbps at night, according to radar data." It's called "Substitution of thesis (Latin: ignoratio elenchi) is a logical error and one of the demagogic techniques based on the refutation of a fictitious point of view in order to substantiate another statement.
            Allows one disputant to distort an argument made by their opponent, substituting a similar but weaker or absurd one. The disputant then refutes this distorted argument, creating the appearance that the original argument, rather than the one they themselves created, has been refuted.
            (c) Wiki

            In short, if you don't know, that's your right. If you don't want to research the matter, that's also your right. If you're used to making judgments based on "personal impressions" without analysis or facts, that's not prohibited by law either.
            But why make a fuss?
            In short.
            I've pointed out the errors in your reasoning. If you want to continue comparing drawings and real ships, that's your right.
            А laughing booth Yes - because all of the above and with such aplomb is very funny - sorry, not me request I arrange it.
            1. +2
              1 October 2026 14: 05
              Quote: Wildcat
              Or have you decided that the Ukrainian Air Force, created from the Soviet legacy and "here you go, what's no use to me, like the F-16 being replaced by the F-35," is stronger than the European Air Force.

              Air defense is, of course, stronger. And that's what holds everything together. At the same time, European air defense was formed on a leftover basis and was never strong.
              Quote: Wildcat
              Please don't engage in demagoguery by "substituting the thesis/subject"

              It's you, not me, who's engaging in demagoguery, indiscriminately criticizing the weapon on the grounds that it wasn't put into production. You have no basis for this.
              Quote: Wildcat
              It's called "Thesis Substitution"

              No. This is called "extrapolation," since I evaluate the performance characteristics of systems based on the prerequisites for their creation and the achievements at the time of their development. If the Sverdlovs had very good fire control systems, already approaching the American ones and much better than the one on the Chapayevs, then it's logical to assume that the prospective fire control system for the 66 will be even closer to the American one.
              Quote: Wildcat
              I pointed out the errors in your reasoning.

              You pointed out to me the discrepancy between my reasoning and your picture of the world. And for some reason you decided that your vision is more correct.
              1. -1
                1 October 2026 15: 32
                Air defense is, of course, stronger. And that's what holds everything together. At the same time, European air defense was formed on a leftover basis and was never strong.
                It wouldn't be too much trouble for you to back up your argument with numbers, because there are 20 Patriot batteries off the top of my head in poor Europe, not counting Hetz, Aster/Mamba, the Navy, Kamm, MIKA, NASAMS and anything else that could be counted...
                Although... you are ready to explain with numbers that "2,177 is significantly more than 1,330, ... if you dig a little deeper, everything becomes not so clear-cut." good
                It's you, not me, who's engaging in demagoguery, indiscriminately criticizing the weapon on the grounds that it wasn't put into production. You have no basis for this.
                Another substitution of concepts. They explain to you that you can't compare a piece of paper and a series of ships, but you start talking about "denigration."
                No. This is called "extrapolation," since I evaluate the performance characteristics of systems based on the prerequisites for their creation and the achievements at the time of their development. If the Sverdlovs had very good fire control systems, already approaching the American ones and much better than the one on the Chapayevs, then it's logical to assume that the prospective fire control system for the 66 will be even closer to the American one.
                And here you are mistaken, your “extrapolation” is another demagogy in the form of a “false analogy” (you compare existing objects with non-existent ones): “False analogy is one of the most common logical fallacies and demagoguery techniques. Its essence lies in the comparison of two completely different objects or phenomena, based on coincidental or insignificant external similarities, to prove their point.
                The purpose of this technique is to divert the discussion and force the interlocutor to argue about the details of an incorrect comparison, instead of discussing the real essence of the problem."

                request
                You pointed out to me the discrepancy between my reasoning and your picture of the world. And for some reason you decided that your vision is more correct.
                I am very glad that you no longer pass off your reasoning as facts.
                good
                There's just a little left to add: perhaps, if Project 66 had been "finished," it would have been no less of a "wonderful mistake than the Peresvet ballistic missile cruiser" or the Oleg cruiser. In the post-WW2 era, a superheavy cruiser with 220mm main guns and anti-aircraft guns somewhere around the mid-WW2 level would have played the role of the Yamato at best, and the Tirpitz at worst. Because the design was already obsolete during the R&D phase.
                A 220mm main caliber rifle could have been the "swan song" of a relatively large caliber, well-made - like the buttons in the famous Soviet joke about the jacket: "but there are complaints about the buttons."
                And about "66 versus Des Moines": you understand perfectly well who would have "deconstructed" 66 in reality after D-Day. And from the example of your beloved Russian Navy, you know perfectly well what happens when a fleet with real combat experience clashes with a fleet under the slogan "we'll throw hats/R&D/PIR at them."
                request
                1. +3
                  1 October 2026 15: 57
                  Quote: Wildcat
                  It won't be difficult for you to support your argument with numbers, because there are only 20 Patritov batteries off the top of my head in unfortunate Europe.

                  It’s not difficult.
                  Quote: Wildcat
                  Another substitution of concepts. They explain to you that you can't compare paper and a series of ships.

                  You don't explain. You simply declare "no" without the slightest evidence. And this thesis of yours is completely false, as it is both possible and necessary.
                  Quote: Wildcat
                  And here you are mistaken, your “extrapolation” is another demagogy in the form of a “false analogy”

                  Extrapolation, my dear fellow, is a method that allows one to estimate the value of a function or pattern beyond known data, assuming that the identified trends will continue. Extrapolation is one of the methods of scenario modeling the future, meaning it is widely used to determine what doesn't exist.
                  And the false analogy that you write about
                  Quote: Wildcat
                  The purpose of this technique is to divert the discussion and force the interlocutor to argue about the details of an incorrect comparison, instead of discussing the real essence of the problem.

                  This is your reference to my article about the Air Force in the discussion thread about the Navy. That's a false analogy, indeed. Because you dragged a comparison into the discussion.
                  Quote: Wildcat
                  Its essence is that in order to prove his rightness, a person compares two completely different objects or phenomena,

                  Like the Air Force and the 220mm/65, for example. But when I study the development of Soviet naval fire control systems up until the 50s and use that to predict the capabilities of a prospective Soviet cruiser's fire control system, that's just extrapolation.
                  Quote: Wildcat
                  I am very glad that you no longer pass off your reasoning as facts.

                  Another example of demagoguery on your part.
                  1. -1
                    1 October 2026 18: 04
                    It’s not difficult.
                    Good answer. good
                    You don't explain. You simply declare "no" without the slightest evidence. And this thesis of yours is completely false, as it is both possible and necessary.
                    Why I don't explain, I'll explain: you can't compare a paper project and one barrel at the range with a production ship, because a folder with paper and a production ship are two different things.
                    If you don't understand this, that's good.
                    request
                    Extrapolation, my dear fellow, is a method that allows one to estimate the value of a function or pattern beyond known data, assuming that the identified trends will continue. Extrapolation is one of the methods of scenario modeling the future, meaning it is widely used to determine what doesn't exist.
                    This is an extrapolation, or something: "If the Sverdlovs had very good fire control systems, already approaching the American ones and much better than what was installed on the Chapaevs, then it is logical to assume that the prospective fire control system for the 66 will be even closer to the American one." lol Let's continue with your scientific method: "Katya is a size 1, Tanya is a size 2, which means Masha is definitely..." good
                    Why do you even use extrapolation - "by analogy", and not within the framework of one object - from existing objects to non-existent ones?
                    This is your reference to my article about the Air Force in the discussion thread about the Navy. That's a false analogy, indeed. Because you dragged a comparison into the discussion.
                    Why false?
                    The object, excuse me, is the same—your creativity, and your techniques are also the same. Just as back then, you partially presented your opinions as facts, so you do the same now.
                    request
                    But when I study the development of the USSR's ship fire control systems up until the 50s and, on this basis, make a prediction about the capabilities of the fire control system of a prospective Soviet cruiser, this is an extrapolation.
                    This is "false self-confidence."
                    It's unlikely that you've ever touched a fire control system, much less seen it in operation and attempted to measure its parameters and/or analyze them.
                    You collect open information: in the form of educational literature, memoirs, technical descriptions, and, to the best of your ability, try to draw some conclusions.
                    It's funny and a bit naive, you know. request
                    And this kind of research is called "working with secondary sources," because the objects of research (what are you using as a reference, the 50s SOS?) are not available to you.
                    With the same success, for example, having seen a film with Monica Bellucci once, you can sign up as one of her "researchers".
                    Quote: Wildcat
                    I am very glad that you no longer pass off your reasoning as facts.
                    Another example of demagoguery on your part.
                    Okay, let's assume that you continue to pass off reasoning as facts.
                    request
                    P.S. Don't be offended, this is my professional deformation as a former member of several audit committees (I had such a funny experience) - I separate facts from opinions/reasonings/interpretations and evaluate the facts.
                    P.S. You're a good author and bring a wealth of interesting data into circulation, and interesting experts come to comment on your articles.
                    But with interpretation and extrapolation... crying
                    1. +3
                      1 October 2026 18: 11
                      Quote: Wildcat
                      Let's continue with your scientific method: "Katya is a size 1, Tanya is a size 2, which means Masha is definitely..."

                      Exactly the one
                      Quote: Wildcat
                      "False analogy is one of the most common logical fallacies and demagoguery techniques. Its essence lies in the fact that, to prove their point, a person compares two completely different objects or phenomena based on their coincidental or insignificant external similarities.

                      In this case, you compared the process of development and consistent improvement of single-purpose systems (SPS) with a non-representative sample of citizens who are not connected in any way.
                      And these people accuse me of demagoguery....
                      But what's surprising? After all, everyone knows who shouts "stop thief!" the loudest.
                      1. 0
                        1 October 2026 18: 32
                        In this case, you compared the process of development and consistent improvement of single-purpose systems (SPS) with a non-representative sample of citizens who are not connected in any way.
                        Well... everyone has their own research subject, excuse me... feel and it's very good that this sample is "in no way connected to each other citizens", the only thing missing there was a connection between them feel feel ...
                        However, articles about the history of the fleet also have an impact good help, for example, when you need to urgently think about something bad... you can imagine Des Moines... feel feel
                        But what's surprising? After all, everyone knows who shouts "stop thief!" the loudest.
                        Personally, I'm screaming for a sequel to Verb; there was even a cliffhanger at the end!!! I'm not even screaming, I'm just quietly hoping...
                        feel
                    2. 0
                      2 October 2026 10: 23
                      Quote: Wildcat
                      Let's continue with your scientific method: "Katya is a size 1, Tanya is a size 2, which means Masha is definitely..."

                      So, were Katya, Tanya and Masha produced in a factory? wink

                      Here it’s more likely "Before the war, Katya was dressed in tarpaulin boots by the proms, and after the war, Tanya was given chrome ones, so Masha will definitely be given chrome ones, or even something better.". Why on earth are we going to assume that the only thing the proms can give Masha, the last one on the list, is bast shoes?
                      1. 0
                        2 October 2026 15: 42
                        At least one Navy fan got the "ladies' example"...
                        good
                        In your case with Masha, they will give you what is "in stock", from chrome and tarpaulin boots right up to boots, but bast shoes were not included in the supply, IMHO.
                        Regarding the SUBJECT - I responded below to the post "Viktor Leningradets"
                        (Victor)".
                      2. 0
                        2 October 2026 15: 59
                        Quote: Wildcat
                        In your case with Masha, they'll give you whatever they have in stock, from chrome and tarpaulin boots to boots.

                        Our Masha is spoiled... laughing After all, it's a heavy cruiser.
                        So they'll give her "no worse than Tanya," that is, pr. 68-bis. Or even better.
                2. +2
                  1 October 2026 20: 39
                  Another substitution of concepts. They explain to you that you can't compare a piece of paper and a series of ships, but you start talking about "denigration."

                  It's possible and necessary. Every project requires an evaluation, and this can only be done by comparing it to an analogue, preferably the closest one. In this case, the most modern American heavy cruiser, the De Moines-class, was quite rightly chosen as the one chosen.
                  And the fact that the “paper” is compared with a real existing sample is absolutely legal.
                  Another issue is that the highly respected Andrey often resorts to simplification and analogies in his comparisons, replacing design solutions with those of the obsolete Project 68-bis. This is truly unacceptable; the characteristics must correspond to the submitted revised technical design of the Project 66 medium cruiser, and not a hair lower. In terms of the fire control system, it is a complete analogue of the Project 82 fire control system and not a whit lower until the designer makes the appropriate modifications. So, in fact, it is equivalent to GFCS++ (De Moine has GFCS+).
                  1. 0
                    2 October 2026 15: 38
                    Possible and necessary.
                    Well and good.
                    It's clear that the example with the ladies didn't work, so I'll try to explain it using machines.
                    request
                    Situation: there is an American-made car parked in your yard.
                    Someone approaches you and tells you that the USSR has invented a remarkable machine that is much better than the American one, especially at long range. The machine wasn't built in the USSR, but "Due to its /// qualities, because of its large vertical /// accuracy, //// American /// machines were inferior to the Soviet //// machines by approximately 2 and 2,5 times, respectively."
                    If a hypothetical car from the USSR had been made and there had been data on its actual characteristics, there would be no questions.
                    But comparing drawings on paper (both the pr. 66 and the pr. 82 fire control system) and the actual serial mechanism and making such a conclusion is wrong.
                    In this case, the conclusion can only be probabilistic, using words like "possibly," "theoretically," "likely," and so on. Given the Navy's technological lag, the conclusion is likely "unlikely."
                    request
                    1. 0
                      2 October 2026 15: 48
                      Once again, without demagoguery:
                      The project is subject to review in comparison with its current counterpart.
                      This comparison is carried out by a group of experts or by the authors themselves, followed by defense.
                      At the same time, it is not allowed to arbitrarily change the characteristics given in the project (neither for the better nor for the worse!)
                      Over my half-century of professional experience, I've seen all sorts of things, including false expert opinions. But never once has the principle of complete correspondence between the data declared in a project and the data used for comparison been violated.
                      And don't resort to appealing to analogies. They're not considered arguments, much less proof. Only facts, and only on topic.
                      Moreover, after 1945, the topic of main-caliber fire control systems in the US Navy was openly abandoned. And as for how backward we were, remember Eisenhower's response to Congress regarding the starboard satellite.
                      1. 0
                        2 October 2026 16: 05
                        Once again, without demagoguery:
                        A false thesis doesn't become true just by being repeated. But the process of "drawings versus production ships: advantage at long range" seems unstoppable.
                        crying
                        The project is subject to review in comparison with its current counterpart.
                        This comparison is carried out by a group of experts or by the authors themselves, followed by defense.
                        At the same time, it is not allowed to arbitrarily change the characteristics given in the project (neither for the better nor for the worse!)
                        Over my half-century of professional experience, I've seen all sorts of things, including false expert opinions. But never once has the principle of complete correspondence between the data declared in a project and the data used for comparison been violated.
                        Well, that's how the "machines from the USSR" arrived at the result we have today. But it's not your fault, of course; that's just how the system worked.
                        And don't resort to appealing to analogies. They're not considered arguments, much less proof. Only facts, and only on topic.
                        Okay, I'll stop.
                        Another twenty (a hundred would be better) of your posts - and I personally will believe in the decisive victory of the paper projects 66/82 over the serial Des Moines.
                        good
                        Moreover, after 1945, the topic of main-caliber fire control systems in the US Navy was openly abandoned. And as for how backward we were, remember Eisenhower's response to Congress regarding the starboard satellite.
                        Exactly! Pravda has written repeatedly since 1945 about the decay of the United States and its imminent collapse! And it's not just Sputnik that proves this – but ballet, chess, and figure skating and hockey too!
                        fellow
                        P.S. Thank you, I haven't laughed like that since yesterday.
                        good
  15. +3
    1 October 2026 13: 33
    That is, returning to one of the comments
    Quote: Victor Leningradets
    Ahead of us is the "invincible" Des Moines, which will teleport to a distance of 75 cables and shoot the "shameful Soviet" Project 66.

    One can come to the conclusion that Victor is not so wrong)
    All that's left is to develop a teleport and voila hi
    1. +3
      1 October 2026 14: 06
      Quote: Trapper7
      One can come to the conclusion that Victor is not so wrong)

      Can:)))))) hi
    2. +2
      1 October 2026 16: 26
      I already apologized.
      It's just that these senile figures and other leaders are getting on my nerves with their demands for expert comparisons and a result they like. This whole game with Project 66 is a prime example of this approach.
      1. +2
        2 October 2026 10: 26
        Quote: Victor Leningradets
        It's just that these deadbeats and other leaders have had enough of their demands to conduct an expert comparison and come to a result they like.

        But you must admit, the Project 24 Admirals have been reliably supported by such expert assessments. smile
        And the weathercocking of the wise men of science at the departmental level was brilliantly demonstrated in the Khalzan case—two contradictory, strictly scientific conclusions issued a month apart. And not for some third assistant of a fifth official, but for the Council of Ministers and the Central Committee.
  16. +2
    1 October 2026 15: 43
    Quote: Pushkowed
    So, with the increase in combat range, a return to the concept of “light projectile – high muzzle velocity” has become justified?

    Well, if the shell for the 220mm gun in question weighed 176 kg, you can't call it light. In terms of mass, if you do the math, it's a scaled-down version of our 12" shell from 11.
  17. +1
    1 October 2026 16: 53
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    To estimate the probability of hitting, the horizontal projection is converted to a vertical projection, which the projectile's trajectory must cross to hit the ship.
    If it's difficult to evaluate theoretically, try it with an example.

    I tried it at close to the maximum distance and at angles of impact of the projectile to the target of approximately 50 degrees from the horizontal, and interesting results were obtained, especially at certain course angles of the target.
    1. +2
      1 October 2026 21: 09
      I tried it at close to the maximum distance and at angles of impact of the projectile to the target of approximately 50 degrees from the horizontal, and interesting results were obtained, especially at certain course angles of the target.

      To understand, substitute Jurens' formula into your calculations:

      Ph = 10^(2-2,3*D/Dmax) (%)

      where:
      Ph - percentage of hits with absolute accuracy of the sight and calculated correction;
      D - distance to a target such as a large ship;
      Dmax is the maximum range of the projectile at this initial speed;
      2,3 - recalculation of the ballistic factor and transverse load for the American and Soviet projectiles (they, oddly enough, are mutually equal in this case!)
  18. 0
    1 October 2026 18: 47
    I love articles like this one about a "spherical horse in a vacuum"... Yes
  19. +2
    1 October 2026 19: 24
    In general, if we're talking about Project 69, 22, and 82 ships, their excessive speed requirements were their undoing. Just compare a Project 22 cruiser to the Dunkirk. The 22 could only outrun it, and yet their standard displacements were practically identical! And what's more, the Derfflinger and Tiger were in the same weight class.
    1. +1
      1 October 2026 21: 12
      Alexey!
      Please forgive me, but neither Tiger nor Derflinger have the slightest chance of surviving a duel with a Project 66 cruiser. There is indeed an alternative, but I'll tell you about it later. First, let the author of the series present his combat model.
  20. +3
    1 October 2026 19: 27
    Quote: Monster_Fat
    I love articles like this one about a "spherical horse in a vacuum"... Yes

    What a coincidence! Me too. These articles help us understand the most interesting things: the logic of historical events, the logic of decision-making, both political and technical.
  21. +1
    1 October 2026 19: 44
    Thanks to Andrey for the always interesting material! The calculations and graphs are certainly difficult for those with a humanities background to grasp.
    In this case, the high rate of fire is compensation for the excessive dispersion of the shells...
  22. +1
    1 October 2026 20: 19
    When firing 176 kg projectiles at a muzzle velocity of 800 m/s, the accuracy advantage is not as great, but still remains: at 100 and 150 kbt, the 220 mm/65 guns will provide a hit percentage of 1,22 and 1,46 times, respectively.
    Why bother?! Let's go with 16"; the accuracy will be even better. But when the Americans built ships with not even 16" but 12" (Alaska), everyone started shaking their heads.
    Let's now imagine the same firing conditions: a range of 150 kbt, a 120 x 20 m shield, the aiming point precisely at the shield's center, and 100 shells fired, but with a muzzle velocity of 800 m/s instead of 920 m/s. In this case, the vertical mean deviation would no longer be 80,5 m, but 144,5 m. Consequently, 50% of all shells would be distributed not over 161 m, but over 289 m, meaning that only 3-4 shells would hit the shield, not 6-7.
    Hmm... I've come up with a superweapon: a death ray. Make an 8" Krasnopolye-like shell (8" rounds aren't cheap, and adding precision guidance will increase the cost several times, but not by an order of magnitude), highlight the enemy with a laser, and blast them with precision-guided rounds. Instead of a 3-6% hit rate, even an 80% hit rate would be enough to freak the hell out and quickly disappear. And blame the laser beam, as if it was the one that destroyed everything.
  23. +1
    2 October 2026 09: 57
    To understand, substitute Jurens' formula into your calculations:

    Everything is correct for calculating the deviation, but as they say, "there is a nuance."
    1. The difference in maximum range between the Soviet 152, 180, and 220 mm guns and the American 203 mm gun on the De Moines cruiser. In other words, at the ranges of the Soviet guns, the De Moines gun simply doesn't measure up.
    2. The size of the horizontal projection of the target (enemy cruiser) at these ranges and at course angles close to 0 or 180 degrees, respectively, for two cruisers.
    1. 0
      2 October 2026 15: 20
      Case of target coverage angle of 30 degrees.
    2. 0
      2 October 2026 15: 24
      Thus, calculations are made relative to individual firing ranges. The American gun has its own, and ours has its own. Moreover, Dmax is taken as the maximum ballistic range, not the range under turret conditions.
  24. exo
    +1
    2 October 2026 15: 05
    Very interesting and informative. Thank you! The almost mandatory presence of an aircraft carrier in an American naval group changes the whole situation. When our cruiser appeared, this was practically the norm.
  25. 0
    3 October 2026 01: 33
    It's quite interesting how the respected author conceptually transformed the cruiser target into a vertical shield, and based all his constructions on the fact that the "De Moines" has a much higher vertical dispersion when firing at a vertical shield at long ranges.

    The respected author apparently forgot that overhead fire is required not at the vertical, but at the horizontal projection of the target, and has been and is being successfully conducted at targets that do not have a significant vertical projection.

    So, when assessing the effectiveness of long-range fire, a horizontal dispersion ellipse should be superimposed on the target's horizontal projection, because with such fire, hits on the deck rather than the target ship's side were much more likely. And the Des Moines's horizontal dispersion ellipse at long ranges was so much better than that of the Project 66 cruiser, firing its 220 mm guns with increased propellant charges, which provided a muzzle velocity of 985 m/s, that at these ranges, the Project 66 cruiser's guns were simply not planned to fire increased propellant charges.

    It's surprising how the respected author forgot the conclusions of professionals:

    "At ranges of 170–115 cables, it is advisable to use charges with a velocity of 800 m/s, which should be considered the primary charge. Charges with a velocity of 985 m/s should be used at ranges of 115 cables and less, and should be kept on the ship in limited quantities."

    This happens when in your constructions you imagine the enemy ship as a vertical shield, a target without a horizontal projection.

    As a result, your conclusions turn out to be completely contrary to the conclusions of professionals who planned that at distances over 115 cables, firing 176-kilogram shells with an initial velocity reduced to 800 m/s from the 220 mm guns of the Project 66 cruiser would be almost as “mortar-like” as firing from the guns of the cruiser “De Moines” with super-heavy (for a caliber of 203 mm) 152-kilogram armor-piercing shells with an initial velocity of 762 m/s.

    The respected author wrote such a long article, and the entire article, based on the simplification that shooting is carried out at a vertical shield, and not at a real ship, which has not only a vertical but also a horizontal projection of the target, turned out to be erroneous.

    It is a pity.

    And yes, let me remind you of the conclusions of professionals from 1954:

    "At ranges of less than 150 cables, the Project 66 cruiser is inferior to the Des Moines in the frequency of hits and the weight of metal introduced into the enemy ship, and therefore quickly loses the advantages achieved in attacks at ranges greater than 150 cables, that is, outside the range of enemy fire."

    "Due to the small ammunition load of the main caliber cruiser, the Project 66 cruiser cannot solve the problem of disabling the De Moine cruiser at any attack range and is only capable of reliably disabling one Cleveland-class light cruiser. The standard ammunition load for the main caliber artillery completely fails to take into account the increased ranges of artillery attacks in modern naval combat, which are characterized by a low percentage of hits and require a large expenditure of shells to achieve the attack target."

    "The significant range of 220mm guns (260 cables) when firing shells with an initial velocity of 985 m/s can be used, according to the adjustment conditions, only within the range of up to 200 cables with a hit probability of 1,5–2,0%. Therefore, in order to increase the hit probability and the percentage of shells penetrating the enemy's deck, at distances of 170–115 cables, it is advisable to use charges of 800 m/s, which should be considered the main ones.

    Charges capable of 985 m/s should be used at ranges of 115 cables or less, and their availability on board ships should be limited. This requires the development of a special system for quickly transitioning (in no more than 1 minute) from one projectile's initial velocity to another without re-calibration.


    In general, even without taking into account the fact that the Project 66 cruiser was an anachronism from a bygone era in the already-beginning era of guided missile weapons, even as a ship of the artillery era, it did not surpass its American counterpart at long artillery combat distances to the extent that one could expect a significant probability of disabling the American heavy cruiser at these distances.

    And at combat distances of less than 150 cable lengths, at which the Des Moines opened fire from its 203 mm machine guns "The Project 66 cruiser is inferior to the Des Moines in the frequency of hits and the weight of metal introduced into the enemy ship and therefore quickly loses the advantages achieved in attack at distances greater than 150 cables, that is, outside the range of enemy fire,"

    That's it, actually. The Project 66 cruiser proved to be a technical and tactical dead end. The time and money spent on its design were wasted. Fortunately, this became clear after the exploratory tactical game conducted from February 15 to March 1, 1954, and not after the keel-laying of one or more ships. Unfortunately, with the Project 82 cruiser, this only became clear after construction of three ships had begun.
    1. -1
      3 October 2026 06: 43
      At 150 meters, the De Moines' shells fly like crazy, no matter how much you try to believe otherwise. It's like firing a PPSh at 1200 meters—lots of noise, zero hits (about 2% in our case, or one hit every 5 minutes 33,3 seconds AFTER SIGHTING). So you fired your ammunition into the ocean at that range.
      Moreover, the project 66 hits at this distance 10 times more often.
      And the Commission's Conclusion is a typical example of something ordered for an inconvenient project. However, after we've had a chance to test it, I'll write something about it.
      1. -1
        3 October 2026 10: 02
        Quote: Victor Leningradets
        At 150 cables, De Moines' projectiles fly as God wills, no matter how much you try to believe otherwise.

        I don't believe in anything, either directly or indirectly. I simply quoted the experts from 1954: "At ranges of less than 150 cables, the Project 66 cruiser is inferior to the Des Moines in the frequency of hits and the weight of metal introduced into the enemy ship, and therefore quickly loses the advantages achieved in attacks at ranges greater than 150 cables, that is, outside the range of enemy fire."
        Simply because I'm familiar with the conclusions of these experts. I pointed out the methodological error of Andrey. For some reason, Andrey decided to consider only hits on the target's vertical projection and, based on this, "simplified" the target in his understanding to a vertical shield. Whereas, at long ranges in artillery combat, one should primarily consider the target's horizontal projection on the so-called "terrain," and "for the purposes of increasing the probability of hitting and the percentage of shells penetrating the enemy's deck at distances of 170–115 cables. It is advisable to use charges of 800 m/s, which should be considered the main ones." - i.e., at distances of 170-115 cable lengths, it was recommended to “mortar” the ballistics of the remarkable SM-40 guns with their maximum muzzle velocity of 985 m/s to a muzzle velocity of 800 m/s, practically to the ballistics of the 203 mm guns of the cruiser “De Moines”.
        one hit in 5 minutes 33,3 seconds AFTER SIGHTING... Moreover, the project 66 hits at this distance 10 times more often.

        Please provide your calculations. I'd like to point out that radar ranging, with its target range error of just tens of meters, had already solved the issue of zeroing speed by the 1950s.

        But dispersion... based on calculations by specialists from 1954, I note that the hit probability mentioned by these specialists of 1,5-2,0% at long ranges for shells with a muzzle velocity of 985 m/s resulted in an estimated 13-18 hits for 176 kg shells, with the Project 66 cruiser's entire main battery ammunition load of 900 shells expended. Therefore, the specialists proposed "mortaring" the ballistics of the Project 66 cruiser's remarkable guns at ranges of less than 170 cable lengths and greater than 115 cable lengths, up to a muzzle velocity of 800 m/s. "in order to increase the probability of hitting and the percentage of shells penetrating the enemy's deck."

        That's all, actually. Well, since you mentioned the question of faith, you can believe the Soviet specialists from 1954, or you can believe the speculative shooting of the esteemed Andrei from Chelyabinsk at a vertical shield. After all, we live in a free country; everyone can believe whatever they want.
        And the Commission's Conclusion is a typical example of what was ordered in relation to an inconvenient project.

        Oh, these Soviet lies, not only about the most progressive social system, but also about the fact that shells at long ranges mainly hit the deck, and not the side of the naval target. wink

        By the way, the horizontal projection of the Project 66 cruiser was approximately 25% larger than the horizontal projection of the De Moine cruiser, and the major axis of the horizontal projection of the dispersion ellipse on the terrain for 152 kg 203 mm shells with an initial velocity of 762 m/s and 176 kg 220 mm shells with an initial velocity of 800 m/s was, at the discussed long ranges of artillery combat of the said cruisers, more or less the same.

        However, at the indicated ranges of 150 cables and less, the cruiser "De Moines" with the maximum technical rate of fire of its main battery fired 90 shells per minute, and the Project 66 cruiser could respond with more than three times less, at just under 29 shells per minute.

        This is precisely why Soviet experts noted that: "At distances less than 150 cables, the Project 66 cruise missile is inferior to the Des Moines in terms of hit rate and the weight of metal introduced into the enemy ship."

        I hope you didn't find the Soviet specialists' proposal to reduce the ballistics of the Project 66 cruiser's 220mm guns at ranges of 170–115 cable lengths to a muzzle velocity of 800 m/s sabotage? Just kidding.
        1. 0
          3 October 2026 12: 09
          Seriously.
          There is Faith, and there is Mathematics, if there is a fight, I will describe it in all its variations.
          And yes, understating the ballistic data relative to the passport data is sabotage to the Commission, I confirm.
          It's laughable when you write about shooting the Mk16 at 150 cables with some kind of dispersion. In reality, 0,2% is ideal shooting with the correct sight and adjustments. Furthermore, at these ranges, the stabilization system doesn't help; it introduces error, so you have to shoot at two zero points of roll when the vehicle is rolling (which is what the Americans actually did). The machine gun works fine from 100 cables and closer.
          Well, there's no need to lie: at a distance of 150 cables, the theoretical rate of fire of the SM-40 is 4,4 rounds per minute, so it's definitely not "three times"
          1. 0
            3 October 2026 12: 35
            Quote: Victor Leningradets
            Jokes aside, there's Faith, and there's Mathematics. If there's a fight, I'll explain it in all its variations.

            Well, I'll wait for your mathematical calculations that don't coincide with the mathematical calculations of professionals performed in 1954.
            Well, you'll die laughing when you write about some shooting from a Mk16 at 150 cables with some dispersion.

            First, I'll quote. Second, according to the data tables, such firing, albeit at 148 cable lengths with the super-heavy 203 mm AP Mk 21 projectile, was possible. And at 150 cable lengths, only the SP Common Mk 17 projectile, which had a muzzle velocity of 823 m/s, was possible.
            Well, there's no need to lie: at a distance of 150 cables, the theoretical rate of fire of the SM-40 is 4,4 rounds per minute, so it's definitely not "three times"

            Are you directing your "no need to lie" remark at me, or at the respected author of the article who wrote, "Soviet turrets were supposed to fire 3,2 shots per barrel at elevations above 20 degrees and 5 rounds per minute per barrel at elevations of 20 degrees and below"? wink
            And yes, understating the ballistic data relative to the passport data is sabotage to the Commission, I confirm.

            Yes, sure: "Commanders "The professionals have betrayed us!" laughing
            1. 0
              3 October 2026 13: 33
              Don't pick on the Author too much!
              There are many of us - he is one.
              Naturally, when calculating the rate of fire, the time it takes to raise and lower the barrel at the loading angle (eight degrees in our case) is added to the firing cycle, and the rate of fire changes quite monotonously. This is well described in the description of the battleship Yamato's artillery.
              As for canceling the construction of yet another dinosaur of a bygone era in the advent of the atomic age, it's the right move, it's just the argumentation that's flawed. Our bureaucrats and military were guilty of this under both the Tsar and the Soviets, and they've reached their full potential today. I know, I'm guilty; I'm guilty myself.
              1. +1
                3 October 2026 16: 53
                Quote: Victor Leningradets
                Naturally, when calculating the rate of fire, the time for raising and lowering the barrel by the loading angle (eight degrees in our case) is added to the firing cycle, and the change in the rate of fire is quite monotonous.

                That's true, but such calculations are only possible with knowledge of the mount's vertical velocity. Even on our modernized 12-inch three-gun mounts, it reached 6 degrees per second; here, it should be significantly higher. Therefore, I'm considering 5 rounds per minute for the entire +4-20 degrees range—the difference between 5 and 20 degrees is about a second and a half or two at most, but probably less.
              2. 0
                9 October 2026 18: 43
                Judging by videos of American cruisers and battleships firing, vertical aiming didn't slow the rate of fire in any way. And it's enough to remember that our battleships increased the rate of fire by switching the loading to a fixed angle. Only at higher angles did the rate of fire drop. But it's not needed there. The projectile has a long flight time.
    2. +1
      3 October 2026 13: 10
      Quote: AlexanderA
      The respected author apparently forgot that overhead shooting is required not for the vertical, but for the horizontal projection of the target.

      Alexander obviously never knew that shooting accuracy is assessed using a three-dimensional target, reduced to a vertical projection. This is the only way to account for the projectile's trajectory.
      1. +2
        4 October 2026 22: 08
        Dear Andrey, I'm surprised you can't remember that, given your assumptions about "Alesandra obviously never knew," I can easily put you in your place by demonstrating that I did know. See attached images.

        It was precisely because I knew that I was surprised by your erroneous, and frankly, amateurish attempt to calculate the hit probabilities for the guns of the Project 66 cruiser and the cruiser "De Moines" at a distance of 150 cables, simplifying the target ship to a vertical shield 20 meters high, and then superimposing a vertical dispersion ellipse on this shield.

        Using your method for determining the probability of hitting a ship (it's not found in the specialized literature, so you must have come up with it yourself), what was the distribution of hit probability between the side and the deck at a range of 150 cable lengths for the ships in question? Oh, right, you don't even have a deck or its area as such. Your target is an abstract vertical shield with no horizontal projection. wink
        1. 0
          5 October 2026 08: 23
          Quote: AlexanderA

          According to the method developed by you (it is not found in the specialized literature, which means you came up with it yourself)

          Alexandra, if you had taken the trouble to at least briefly read your own links, you would have seen that this horizontal plane can be reduced to a vertical projection, since the affected space of the ship is determined by the trajectories of the shells.
          So congratulations - you couldn't do geometry in about 7th grade.
          1. 0
            5 October 2026 22: 23
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            So congratulations - you couldn't do geometry in about 7th grade.

            Dear Andrey, you failed. You came up with some far-fetched analogy involving a 20x60 meter vertical shield and a vertical dispersion ellipse superimposed on it, without realizing that your so-called method is only suitable for the Spanish-American War of 1898, but certainly not for pursuit firing at 150 cable lengths with a projectile impact angle of approximately 60 degrees.

            Therefore, your so-called assessments did not coincide at all with the calculations of professionals performed in 1954, according to the results of these calculations, professionals proposed to underestimate the ballistics of the Soviet SM-40 when firing in the range of distances of 170-115 cables to 800 m/s (American 203 mm Mk 24 and Mk 25 projectiles had an initial velocity of 823 m/s) "in order to increase the probability of hitting and the percentage of shells penetrating the enemy's deck".

            But that's okay. You have a ton of fans on topwar who will accept any mistakes you make without criticism. It's more important that you be honest with yourself. "It's okay to make mistakes. It's not okay to lie."

            There's nothing terrible about making mistakes; everyone makes them. Mistakes just need to be acknowledged. Unfortunately, when I pointed out your mistake, you started lying.
            1. +1
              6 October 2026 05: 57
              Quote: AlexanderA
              They came up with some far-fetched analogy with a vertical shield measuring 20x60 meters and superimposing a vertical dispersion ellipse on it.

              It's a shame when a humanities major teaches you 7th-grade geometry—and then turns out to be right. Isn't it?
              I used the shield analogy to simplify the understanding—the article is already overloaded with calculations to provide a detailed description of the affected area. And it is absolutely geometrically correct. As for the phrase
              Quote: AlexanderA
              in order to increase the probability of hitting and the percentage of shells penetrating the enemy's deck

              Here, obviously, we are not talking about the percentage of hits on the ship (which is geometrically impossible), but the percentage of successful hits on the deck.
              Quote: AlexanderA
              Unfortunately, when I pointed out your mistake, you started lying.

              Alas, when you realized that I was right, and you missed the mark again, you couldn’t think of anything smarter than to accuse me of lying.
              The litmus test is that on the essence of the question - that is, on bringing the horizontal affected space to the vertical - you have absolutely nothing to object to.
              1. +2
                6 October 2026 18: 34
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                It's a shame when a humanities major teaches you 7th-grade geometry—and then turns out to be right. Isn't it?

                Let's do this: using the rectangle method described above, you calculate the probability of hitting the cruiser "De Moines" at a range of 150 cable lengths (optionally, the distribution between the probabilities of hitting the side and the deck) with a domestic 180mm gun with a muzzle velocity of 920 m/s and 800 m/s. Perhaps then you'll understand the logic of the professionals who proposed using propellant charges with a muzzle velocity of 800 m/s when firing the 220mm SM-40 gun at ranges of 170-115 cable lengths. For now, I'll provide a quick illustration that will help anyone interested understand that even when firing at a 90-degree course (i.e., straight at the broadside), the battleship Marat's 305mm guns, at a range of 53 cable lengths, 90 percent of their hits were calculated to hit the broadside of a Queen Elizabeth-class battleship, and only 10 percent hit the deck. However, at a range of 130 cable lengths, the ratio changed dramatically: 64 percent hit the deck, and only 36 percent hit the broadside.

                Even more dramatic was the ratio of hits on the British battleship's vertical projection to its deck projection at a course angle of 0 degrees (when pursuing or retreating). At a range of 53 cable lengths, 65 percent of hits hit the deck and only 35 percent hit the vertical projection. At a range of 130 cable lengths, 92 percent hit the deck and only 8 percent hit the battleship's vertical projection.

                I hope at least this illustration will help you understand that you were wrong to imagine the target as a vertical shield measuring 20x160 m and superimpose a vertical dispersion ellipse on it in order to estimate the probability of hitting this shield at a distance of 150 cables.

                You should have simplified the target into a horizontal shield and superimposed a horizontal dispersion ellipse on it. In this case, at near-zero course angles, the results of your simplified assessment would have differed from professional calculations by literally a few percent, since at such course angles (pursuit/retreat) and at such a distance, the probability of hitting the deck is over 90 percent, while the probability of hitting the side, turret front plates, vertical components of superstructures, funnels, etc.—everything that contributed to the vertical component of the target projection—is a few percent.
                1. -1
                  6 October 2026 19: 25
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  I hope at least this illustration will help you understand

                  That you again failed to respond to the essence of the question and began to chatter away the topic.
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  You should have simplified the target as a horizontal shield and superimposed a horizontal dispersion ellipse on it. In this case, at near-zero course angles, the results of your simplified assessment would have differed from professional calculations by literally a few percent.

                  You have just written complete nonsense that contradicts the textbook you cited as an example.
                  Ignoring the height of the side (according to the textbook), or more precisely, the height of the target, would be a grave mistake. And again, even a little knowledge of geometry is enough to understand this.
                  1. +1
                    6 October 2026 20: 19
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    That you again failed to respond to the essence of the question and began to chatter away the topic.

                    Actually, I suggested that you use the simplified method used by professionals - rectangles - to determine the probability of hitting a ship at a distance of 150 cables, and not the method that you came up with, which resulted in an erroneous result.

                    I'm certainly familiar with a few other methods, but they're more complicated. The rectangle method, however, produces a very accurate result at a 90-degree heading angle, which is what you were talking about.
                    You have just written complete nonsense that contradicts the textbook you cited as an example.
                    Ignoring the height of the side (according to the textbook), or more precisely, the height of the target, would be a grave mistake.

                    Your article contains a grave error. Ignoring the vertical projection of the target for the Marat's guns at a range of 130 cables underestimated the hit probability by a fraction of the probability of hitting that same vertical projection, i.e., from 36 percent at a course angle of 90° to 8 percent at a course angle of 0°. As the range increased, the ratio increased further in favor of the deck, although at a course angle of 0°, the difference was extremely insignificant.

                    Your calculations are off by several orders of magnitude, not tens of percent. That's why you still don't understand why professionals suggested underestimating the SM-40's ballistics to 800 m/s at combat ranges of 170-115 cable lengths. Your erroneous calculations prevented you from understanding this.

                    Although, by the way, I think you've already understood everything. You're just not ready to admit that the article "On the problems of the 8-inch/55 guns of the heavy cruiser "De Moines" when firing at long distances" - this is a typical example of erroneous conclusions based on erroneous premises.
                  2. +1
                    6 October 2026 21: 53
                    Dear Andrey, do you have any objections to the table of mean deviations attached to this message? If so, please elaborate on your objections.
      2. +2
        4 October 2026 22: 15
        I will attach the last two pages of the chapter "Determining the Probability of Hitting a Ship Using the Rectangle Method"So you don't think I'm hiding anything from you. I won't hide from you that I'm also familiar with other methods for determining the probability of hitting a ship. wink
    3. 0
      3 October 2026 13: 24
      That's it, actually. The Project 66 cruiser proved to be a technical and tactical dead end. The time and money spent on its design were wasted. Fortunately, this became clear after the exploratory tactical game conducted from February 15 to March 1, 1954, and not after the keel-laying of one or more ships. Unfortunately, with the Project 82 cruiser, this only became clear after construction of three ships had begun.

      hi
      In general, this is how I imagined it: "...if Project 66 had been polished, it would have been no less of a "wonderful mistake" than the Peresvet ballistic missile cruiser or the Oleg cruiser. In the post-WW2 era, a super-heavy cruiser with 220mm main guns and anti-aircraft guns somewhere around the mid-WW2 level would have played the role of the Yamato at best, and the Tirpitz at worst. Because the design was already obsolete during the R&D phase.
      A 220mm GK could be the "swan song" of a relatively large caliber, well-made, like the buttons in the famous Soviet joke about the jacket: "but there are complaints about the buttons."
      ...
      ...220 mm, which never left the testing ground, on a ship that never existed, with a fire control system that, like the ship itself, never existed, cannot be compared with the results of a production ship.
      ...But the process of "drawings versus production ships: advantage at long distances" is apparently unstoppable.

      request
      1. +2
        6 October 2026 19: 10
        Quote: Wildcat
        In general, this is how I imagined it: "...if Project 66 had been 'finished,' it would have been no less of a 'wonderful mistake,' like the Peresvet ballistic missile cruiser or the Oleg ballistic missile cruiser. In the post-WW2 era, a super-heavy cruiser with 220mm main guns and anti-aircraft guns somewhere around the mid-WW2 level would have played the role of the Yamato at best, and the Tirpitz at worst. Because the project was already obsolete at the R&D stage.

        Unfortunately, in my opinion, this has been the technical policy for the construction of the domestic Navy for more than 170 years: constantly trying to prepare for past wars.

        As a result, with the start of the next war, a standard situation arose: the Navy was technically unprepared for modern warfare at sea.
        "...But the process of "drawings versus production ships: advantage at long distances" is apparently unstoppable..."

        But they're beautiful—large artillery ships. Even Comrade Stalin succumbed to this technical charm, wishing that in the 1950s, domestic shipbuilders would build "pirates, real bandits" with 305mm artillery, a full displacement of 43 tons, and a speed of 35 knots. To say nothing of modern technical history buffs. How could such a buff admit that the artillery beauties of Project 82 or Project 66 were an anachronistic attempt to squander enormous resources on yet more "peacetime ships" unsuitable for real modern warfare? Absolutely not.
  26. +1
    3 October 2026 09: 24
    Very interesting! Thank you, colleague!
    1. +1
      3 October 2026 13: 10
      Greetings, dear Alexey! You're welcome, glad you liked it.
      1. +2
        3 October 2026 16: 31
        Actually, there is a reason for it, Andrey.
        The work is enormous, interesting and useful.
        I'm wondering, will you be simulating the battle?
        1. +1
          3 October 2026 16: 42
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          Actually, there is a reason for it, Andrey.

          And once again - thank you!
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          I'm wondering, will you be simulating the battle?

          I still don't know the best way to do it. It definitely needs to be done in some form, but I don't see how complete it is yet.
          1. 0
            3 October 2026 19: 30
            I'll try to send my findings. Pr. 66 vs. Salem: a mutual attack option and an attempt to evade combat.
            But I'll keep "Exposing Black Magic" for myself.
            1. 0
              4 October 2026 10: 31
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              I'll try to send my work.

              I will be very grateful :)))
              1. 0
                5 October 2026 19: 55
                Andrey, explain how, I will send EXCEL with explanations.
                There are two options.
  27. +2
    4 October 2026 21: 55
    Quote: exo
    The almost mandatory presence of an aircraft carrier in an American naval group changes the entire situation. At the time of our cruiser's arrival, this was practically the norm.

    It depends on where the American group appears. For example, there are serious doubts about the presence of an American aircraft carrier in the Black Sea in the 50s within range of Soviet air power to Crimea.