Military Review

When replacing means a radical change. Overview of light armored vehicles. (Part of 2) France

44
Part of the second phase of the Scorpion program (Synergie du Contact Renforce par la Polyvalence et l'infovalorisation), which will lead the French army into a new era, is a light vehicle with unusual mobility and fire power known as VBAE (forulele Blinde d'Aide a l ' Engagement). It will not only close the need for reconnaissance tasks for heavier vehicles, such as the Leclerc MBT, but also provide the means for mobile reconnaissance, such as “covering the flanks, escorting and the like” that require a high level of mobility and sufficient fire power. Thus, the set of functions of this new machine will significantly exceed the functions of the VBL (Traffic Blinde Leger), introduced by Panhard more than 25 years ago, and which currently serves as the "eyes" for the armored units of the French army. The company from Paris, which in the year 2006 received as a result of the merger, was named Panhard General Defense, at the last Eurosatory exhibition showed its offer for the VBAE program under the designation Crab (Combat Reconnaissance Armored Buggy).


The picture shows the Panhard Crab in the urban scenario. A light, well-protected and well-armed machine from Panhard was the company's response to the challenges of the near future.


When replacing means a radical change. Overview of light armored vehicles. (Part of 2) France
On the photo of the place of three crew members in the Panhard Crab I and the new electronic equipment Vsys-net from Thales


PANHARD CRAB: In its original version, the Crab, like VBL, will have a crew of three, but the similarity ends there. First, its combat weight is almost three times the mass of the original VBL, which was installed at around three tons for the purpose of air transportation. In the configuration shown at Eurosatory, the Crab had a mass of 8,5 tons, but its chassis components could cope with the mass increased to 10 tons without impairing mobility (this takes into account the experience of VBL, whose weight increase reduced the mobility of the original machine). Mobility is an integral part of Crab's global survivability, which also combines protection and low visibility.

One of the main components of mobility is power density. Currently, Panhard is considering two different engines for its Crab machine, both of which provide a minimum 35 hp / t for a combat weight of 8,5 tons, which means an output power of approximately 300 hp. Power can be increased if necessary at the expense of the 400-ampere starter-generator, which will provide not only additional tractive force, but also allow the Crab to silently move short distances using the electric power accumulated in its batteries (two solar panels are installed on the sides in the rear parts for recharging batteries on a sunny day). The low visibility of the Crab contributes even more to its reduced silhouette of the car, its height over the roof is almost 1,8 meters. The cabin shape was also developed to minimize radar reflection, the slope of its surfaces contribute to low effective reflection and increased protection against ballistic threats.

Let's return to mobility. The crab has a permanent 4 x 4 drive, both of its bridges are controllable and they can be rotated either in opposite directions, allowing you to make a turn with a diameter less than 10 meters, or coordinated in one direction (albeit at a limited angle), allowing the machine to "shift" to the side like crab! In addition, Panhard has another driving mode, with only the rear wheels turning, and the rear-facing video camera and reverse gearbox with two gears allow the car to retreat quickly. It is based on the suspension of the Panhard VBR 4 x 4, which is distinguished by independent air-liquid shock absorbers and adjustable ground clearance (standard clearance is set to 450 mm). It is worth noting that the Crab "shod" in exactly the same wheels as the VBR.

The Crab machine is built around an armored capsule (cabin-compartment) that seats three people and is accessed through two vertical sash doors. Due to the high location of the bottom of the machine, the lower flap has steps to facilitate embarkation and disembarkation. In order to meet customer requirements, Panhard offers its new machine with 2 and 4 ballistic protection levels. As for mine protection, here the company tested solutions for booking bottoms up to the 3 Level, although in this direction the machine has some potential for growth. It should be noted that the lower part of the machine does not have a typical deep V-shape: in the middle part the bottom is flat, only from the sides it rises, the maximum protection is achieved due to the triple bottom absorbing most of the energy. The wings are made of lightweight material; in the event of a mine exploding, they pass “by” most of the energy and thereby reduce the height to which the Crab machine could be raised by an explosion and, accordingly, reduce the force of the subsequent “impact on the ground”. Explosive seats also reduce the likelihood of injury to crew members, but at the same time guarantee maximum ergonomics when the Crab is moving at high speed over rough terrain.

The driver sits in front of three multifunctional color monitors, while the commander and the gunner each have two monitors. To ensure maximum situational awareness, the Crab is equipped with a six-camera circular view system. The windshield consists of three elements and has an angle that provides optimal visibility forward-up, which is essential in urban environments. To this end, Thales has developed an innovative system electronics system (systronics - system electronics) and on-board electronics (vetroniki - vehicle electronics), called Vsys-net, for the Crab machine, which improves the overall system performance regarding mobility, surveillance, protection and fire power. Based on an open and modular non-patented architecture, it makes it easy to connect electronic systems from various manufacturers. Sistronica Crab includes a combat control system and a radio system allowing it to be integrated into the Scorpion digital script. Vsys-net allows you to fully switch functionality between three workstations in order to optimize the workload at different points in the performance of a combat mission. Although the commander retains his privilege, search and shock functions can be transferred to all three jobs. Internal communication can also be used by a dismounted member of the crew (the standard range of communication is about 300 meters, but at the request of the customer a range of one km can be established). Vsys-net allows you to distribute all images from weapons, on-board sensors, local situational awareness systems among crew members, and an image processing system is integrated to perform analysis and generation of warnings. The ultra-compact GPS / inertial positioning system provides accurate geolocation, it is also connected to the target designation system, and the presence of terrain profiles increases mobility.

Two solar panels installed on a Crab machine increase the amount of electrical charge and increase battery life with the engine off


The Mk2 is the current standard for the serial Panhard VBL. Machines of the French army operating in Afghanistan have undergone significant modernization in order to counter the ever-increasing threat of roadside mines and bombs.


As for the armament, the Crab can be equipped with various remote-controlled modules equipped with weapons up to a caliber of 30 mm. The variant shown at Eurosatory was equipped with a Cockerill Maintenance & Ingenierie module armed with a 25 mm Bushmaster M242 cannon, the entire installation weighing about 800 kg. Although the Crab is lighter than many Mrap-type vehicles in service, due to the fact that it has a low center of gravity, it can withstand the recoil force of its weapons up to 40 kN, while the Mrap vehicles have limitations here, since their high configuration makes them unstable ... The CMI combat module was specially adapted for the Crab in order to optimize the turret / chassis connection; a hatch was cut out in it, which allows the commander to directly observe the environment, which is the requirement of the French army. The module has a stabilized panoramic sight with a vertical angle of 60 ° (vertical gun angles range from –10 ° to + 45 °). The dual feed system allows you to shoot two types of projectiles, the total number of which is 150 pieces. The open base of the module allows loading and servicing from under armor with maximum crew safety. Guided missiles are another type of weapon for the Crab, and it is also possible to install various lighter turrets with small caliber weapons and target designation systems. Due to its low profile and limited size, exact figures are not provided, but the Crab is estimated to be five meters long and 2,5 meters wide. The vehicle can be transported to the C-130H, the C-130J will accommodate two vehicles, and the A-400M aircraft as many as three, that is, it can take on board a platoon ready for combat.

According to a source in the company, the Crab was positively received by the headquarters of the French army, as well as the main armaments department, when presenting officials to the officials. Its dimensions perfectly correspond to the military requirements, although they are still at the clarification stage.
When developing the Crab machine, Panhard General Defense did not just mean the local market; they believe that there is a market for light vehicles equipped with medium weapons, since this niche currently has no competitors. Systems such as the Panhard AML and Sagaie or Engesa Cascavel, as well as light tracked vehicles like the Scorpion, for example, have no successors, therefore, the Crab machine equipped with the appropriate weapon systems can take on their tasks. Africa, Latin America and the Middle East are those geographical areas where such systems are still in service, and where the new machine from Panhard can find its buyers. In addition to the technical aspects that make it possible to judge it as a flexible system, the Crab has another marketing plus, cost. Engineers at Panhard focused on cost rather than opportunity. The company is well aware that the budgets of the Western armies are shrinking, while in other parts of the world it often has to compete with products coming from less developed countries and therefore of lower cost. Obviously, Panhard does not disclose its figures (the serial production of the Crab has not yet begun), but it is clear that its goal is to maintain the machine at a competitive level. When the Crab model appears on the market, it depends mainly on the appearance of the first customer; the VBAE program of the French army is still aloof, although the situation may change in a relatively short time.

In recent years, more than 150 Sherpa 4x4 machines have been sold. The machine is available in various versions, including the option of reconnaissance and target designation, radio intelligence, and even a light artillery installation.


Acmat Bastion BTR is constantly being finalized, the newest options are equipped with independent suspension


VBL. Panhard, however, is still actively promoting its VBL machine, currently receiving the additional designation Mark 2. In order to improve protection and fire power, the French army chose an additional booking and remotely controlled combat module, which increased the vehicle weight to a maximum of five tons. Mark 2 with a Steyr 130 horsepower engine It was adopted by Kuwait and is the current standard production vehicle. Regarding the model of Petit videoule Protege (PVP), the French arms management transferred to the army the 993 machine from the 1133 ordered by the armed forces. This means that the total number of PVP Mk3 shipped has now exceeded the 1000 units.

RENAULT SHERPA. Another major French manufacturer of light armored vehicles is Renault Truck Defense, whose Sherpa has orders for more than 150 units, and is currently being supplied. The car was sold in several configurations. The Sherpa armored personnel carrier, a personnel transporter option that seats up to 10 people, was acquired by Qatar, India and an undisclosed Central European country, while the transporter option was delivered to the NATO Maintenance and Supply Agency, as well as to France, which uses it as a platform for your Syracuse Satcom mobile station. Egypt is also a Sherpa user and operates the Station Wagon and Sherpa Light Scout variants, with a remotely controlled combat module from the Romanian company Pro Optica installed on the latter. This stabilized system can be armed with machine guns from 5,56 to 12,7 mm, it was first shown on board an Egyptian machine in June at the Eurosatory 2012 exhibition.

Renault Trucks Defense has worked to protect its Sherpa machines, which are currently armored to Ballistic 3 Level and Mineral 2a / b Level. In addition, the bottom protection of the Scout variant can be raised to the 3a / 2b Level. A relatively new problem with existing armored vehicles is their unsatisfactory ability to integrate new electronic systems with minimal effort; for this purpose, Renault Trucks Defense benefited from its experience gained by the Volvo Group in the civilian market. Her new solution for the vetronic "Battlenet Inside" is a modification of the finished system available on Volvo trucks, which has been made more robust and militarized in accordance with the demands of consumers. The open architecture of the windbreaks offered to customers makes it easy to equip such machines as Sherpa with combat modules, IED silencers, shot detection systems, battle control systems, etc. Another possible option is the installation of active protection systems: the company showed the Sherpa Light Scout in Paris, equipped with the Bright Arrow combined active and passive protection complex designed and manufactured by Israeli Military Industries. The complex includes an optical-electronic directional silencer, which “blinds” the anti-tank missile guidance system, as well as anti-missiles to neutralize RPGs and missiles. Renault is counting on a steady increase in Sherpa sales in the military and paramilitary areas, it is believed that by the end of 2012, a sufficient number of vehicles could be sold.

The program, which could have a significant impact on Sherpa, VLTP (Trafficule Leger Tactique Polyvalent - light universal tactical machine) of the French army. It provides for the replacement of non-armored universal P4 machines with a five-ballistic ballistic protection 2 level and anti-mine protection 2a / 1b level, 7,5 tonnes with a ballistic protection 2 level and anti-mine protection 2a / 2b level truck, 10, and 5, and 7,5b, three tons, but with weak protection. There is a discussion among users about the possibility of combining their requirements for 2000 and 300 ton machines in favor of the latter in order to create a family of machines with a much greater carrying capacity. As for the quantity, the current needs are estimated as follows: over 500 five-ton and from 7,5 to 100 pieces of 2014-toners of which are 2016 ambulances. For both categories, the application must be placed in the 2025 year, deliveries must pass in the period from 7,5 to XNUMX year. However, the program may at some point be given priority to the combat vehicles that are part of the Scorpion program. Renault Trucks Defense believes that its Sherpa is very well positioned for VLTP requirements in the secure XNUMX-ton truck segment.

ACMAT VLRA2: Renault's subsidiary Acmat Defense has developed a Bastion protected machine based on the VLRA2 all-terrain truck chassis. Recently, the company began producing the latest version of this machine called Bastion Extreme Mobility. Unlike the standard version, based on a dependent suspension, the new car has an independent suspension, while the new diesel engine with an 320 hp. replaced the original piston power xnumx hp The ballistic protection varies from the 215 Level to the 1 Level, with correspondingly reduced payload from three tons to 3 tons (2,5 Level) and one and a half tons, while mine protection increases to the Level 2a / 2b. Bastion EM has a crew of two people and transports eight soldiers who can use their weapon straight out of the car. On the Bastion EM, you can install an open turret armed with a machine gun. Bastion can be transported in aircraft of various payloads, starting with the C-160 Transall.
Originator:
Armada Compendium October 2012
Articles from this series:
When replacing means a radical change. Overview of light armored vehicles. (Part of 1) USA
When replacing means a radical change. Overview of light armored vehicles. (Part of 2) France
When replacing means a radical change. Overview of light armored vehicles. (Part of 3)
When replacing means a radical change. Overview of light armored vehicles. (Part of 4)
44 comments
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  1. Ghost of darkness
    Ghost of darkness 3 June 2013 09: 18 New
    +3
    Pretty bad development
  2. JonnyT
    JonnyT 3 June 2013 09: 31 New
    +2
    this is certainly good. But for light armored vehicles, you can use a light grenade launcher!
    1. Tourist Breakfast
      Tourist Breakfast 3 June 2013 10: 39 New
      +3
      this is certainly good. But for light armored vehicles, you can use a light grenade launcher!


      Well, firstly, they still have to get into them from a grenade launcher, because these machines are much smaller and faster than a tank or infantry fighting vehicle.
      And secondly, the article states that the manufacturer puts active protection.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 3 June 2013 10: 43 New
        +2
        Quote: Tourist's Breakfast
        these cars are much smaller and faster than a tank or infantry fighting vehicle.

        About "faster" - not a fact. In Nasiriyah wheeled vehicles could not overcome one street for 6 hours. Blockages.
        1. Roll
          Roll 3 June 2013 11: 50 New
          -1
          laughing And how many hours did BMP blockages in Nasiria overcome?
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 3 June 2013 11: 55 New
            +4
            With the speed of the infantry, cleaning the house with the support of a 30-mm gun.
            1. Roll
              Roll 3 June 2013 12: 11 New
              0
              wassat If we take into account that at a price of 1 BMP it is equal to at least two armored cars, infantry supported by a 23 mm gun bushmaster like a crab and a grenade launcher the flame like our tiger could move faster, and you need to look at the rubble, no BMP like a helicopter flies. Will he overcome such blockages as in the BMP picture, and if they are still mined then in general -
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 3 June 2013 12: 23 New
                +3
                If we take into account that a tracked infantry fighting vehicle is not limited in maneuverability, like a wheeled armored car, no one there will be "quicker" to move. The BMP will easily overcome such blockages as in the picture. And from mines there is an excellent remedy - URka. After the application of which, the terrain for armored cars will definitely become irresistible.
      2. JonnyT
        JonnyT 3 June 2013 11: 30 New
        +2
        with active protection, it will have a cosmic cost. In addition to grenade launchers, there are also large-caliber machine guns. With the current level of development of armor protection, the weight of such a car will be quite decent, it will be difficult for such a car to drive and maneuver at a "breakneck" speed over rocks and other rubbish ...

        There are such wonderful things as laser rocket guidance. Enough to highlight the mashun with a beam. Or the system fired and forgot. And there are ways to overcome active protection and do not stop developing
        1. Roll
          Roll 3 June 2013 11: 45 New
          +1
          angry Well, about inexpensive protection, you need to learn from the Chinese. They, based on our tiger, made their even more successful tiger. So there are smoke grenades attached to the machine gunner’s turrets, like on our tanks, the machine gunner just quickly, it’s not deploying such a tower, it puts a smokescreen, and the armored car safely rolls off, or the crew leaves the car, in principle, you can put infrared lights, like t -90 only for less. In principle, cheap and effective protection can be done, although the best defense is competent tactics, not duel battles. And as for cross-country ability, many armored cars have a self-scattering winch.
          1. JonnyT
            JonnyT 3 June 2013 12: 45 New
            +1
            Well, imagine. The Chinese tiger entered the war zone. He was shot at by a charge with thermal guidance. Yes, even from RPGs. How does smoke help to avoid detonation and how does a Chinese machine gunner understand that protective equipment should be used?
            1. Roll
              Roll 3 June 2013 12: 58 New
              -3
              laughing And how does the tank or bmp in your example understand? The tank drove into the combat zone, a shot was fired at him with thermal guidance. The result is almost the same. And the Chinese machine gunner, who is visually impaired, saw a BMP or a grenade launcher in the distance, pressed a button, and the smoke screen was ready, he shouted to the driver to reverse and wander off. And with ambushes, the smoke screen is generally fine.
              1. JonnyT
                JonnyT 3 June 2013 14: 06 New
                +2
                Well, I don’t argue. I just want to say that the effectiveness of these expensive armored cars is not better than the old BMP, and the security is far gone. The only plus is speed, maneuverability .....

                The French are doing it to counter weakly armed groups, to drive partisans.
              2. Blackgrifon
                Blackgrifon 3 June 2013 19: 17 New
                0
                "How will a tank or an BMP in your example understand? A tank drove into the combat zone, a heat-guided charge was fired at it. The result is almost the same. And the Chinese machine gunner, who is visually impaired, saw an BMP or grenade launcher in the distance, pressed a button, and a smoke the curtain is ready, shouted back to the driver and get away. And in case of ambushes, the smoke screen is fine. " - and nothing - DZ and AZ with a probability of 70% neutralize the shot. But you can't put a DZ on a light armored personnel carrier.
        2. Tourist Breakfast
          Tourist Breakfast 3 June 2013 13: 41 New
          +2
          with active protection, she will have a space cost.


          There are cheaper active protection options for light armored vehicles. And soldier’s life is more expensive for anyone.

          In addition to grenade launchers, there are also large-caliber machine guns. With the current level of development of armor protection, the weight of such a car will be quite decent, it will be difficult for such a car to drive and maneuver at a "frantic" speed over rocks and other rubbish ...


          And this already depends on the specific power. Read the article:

          One of the main components of mobility is power density. Panhard is currently considering two different engines for its Crab machine, both providing a minimum of 35 hp / t for an 8,5 tonne combat weight, which means an output of approximately 300 hp. Power can be increased if necessary due to a 400-amp starter-generator, which will provide not only additional traction power, but also allow the Crab to move silently over short distances, using the energy stored in its batteries (two solar panels are installed on the sides in the back parts for recharging batteries on a sunny day).

          There are such wonderful things as laser rocket guidance. Enough to highlight the mashun with a beam.


          There are no less wonderful things that warn about exposure and shoot smoke grenades or spray aerosols.

          Or the system fired and forgot.


          It’s too wasteful to use such expensive ammunition against light wheeled vehicles.

          And there are ways to overcome active protection and do not stop developing


          Like the active defense itself.
          1. JonnyT
            JonnyT 3 June 2013 13: 59 New
            0
            There are cheaper active protection options for light armored vehicles

            can you give examples?

            300 hp for 8,5 tons is not enough for quick maneuvers in difficult terrain. There is also inertia, but what to do with it?

            There are no less wonderful things that warn about exposure and shoot smoke grenades or spray aerosols.

            such wonderful things are certainly not cheap

            It’s too wasteful to use such expensive ammunition against light wheeled vehicles.

            Well, it's like someone. And against the expensive armored car - just right
            1. Tourist Breakfast
              Tourist Breakfast 3 June 2013 14: 19 New
              -1
              can you give examples?

              Well, for example "Trophy-LV"

              300 hp for 8,5 tons is not enough for quick maneuvers in difficult terrain. There is also inertia, but what to do with it?


              This is one and a half times more than all MBT.

              such wonderful things are certainly not cheap


              Why should they be so expensive? There photodiodes are all just.

              Well, it's like someone. And against the expensive armored car - just right


              Compared to the tank, it’s a dime anyway.

              This car occupies the "Lynx" / "Tiger" niche. As a last resort BMD. What are we arguing about at all?
              1. JonnyT
                JonnyT 3 June 2013 15: 12 New
                +1
                Quote: Tourist's Breakfast
                Why should they be so expensive? There photodiodes are all just

                Your words, yes to God’s ears! What nafig cheap photodiodes ??? Do you like fairy tales?
                a lot of the photodiode will detect))))
                What about the projectile flight path?
                Even to automatically throw out the smoke of a single photodiode is not enough (and indeed I'm not sure that they can help in principle)
                1. Tourist Breakfast
                  Tourist Breakfast 3 June 2013 16: 33 New
                  +2
                  What about the projectile flight path?

                  And here is the calculation of the trajectory of the projectile ??? The task of the device is only to report laser irradiation.

                  Even to automatically throw out the smoke of a single photodiode is not enough (and indeed I'm not sure that they can help in principle)


                  Well, of course there is a digital component. Why photodiodes do not fit?
                  1. JonnyT
                    JonnyT 3 June 2013 17: 04 New
                    0
                    Quote: Tourist's Breakfast
                    And here is the calculation of the trajectory of the projectile ???

                    so we are talking about systems like "Trophy-LV" ... or am I mistaken?


                    In principle, it’s a good idea to put photodiodes for a laser bearing, but in my opinion the photosensitive area is not very extensive. In order for the photodiode to be triggered by the laser, it is necessary to hit the beam precisely on the photosensitive region. I'm not talking about problems in the settings of the photodiode itself exclusively on the spectrum of the laser beam
                    1. Roll
                      Roll 3 June 2013 18: 07 New
                      -1
                      fellow And, so the laser beam surrendered to you, even with a tank shining with a laser, you can not be far from the tank while the projectile is flying, but as it flies up, it can be pointed at the tank and it will react.
                    2. Tourist Breakfast
                      Tourist Breakfast 4 June 2013 10: 43 New
                      0
                      so we are talking about systems like "Trophy-LV" ... or am I mistaken?


                      I was sure that we were on a laser backlight warning system.
                    3. Tourist Breakfast
                      Tourist Breakfast 4 June 2013 14: 55 New
                      0
                      In principle, it’s a good idea to put photodiodes for a laser bearing, but in my opinion the photosensitive area is not very extensive. In order for the photodiode to be triggered by the laser, it is necessary to hit the beam precisely on the photosensitive region. I'm not talking about problems in the settings of the photodiode itself exclusively on the spectrum of the laser beam


                      There are photodiodes in which the sensitivity peak, for example, on 650 nanometer waves. Which just matches the red laser. Well, of course, you need not one single small diode, but a sensor of the appropriate size plus collecting optics.
          2. Blackgrifon
            Blackgrifon 3 June 2013 19: 27 New
            0
            "It's too wasteful to use such expensive ammunition against light wheeled vehicles." - agree - 14,5 mm or 12,7 mm machine gun. Cheap and cheerful. After the turn from it, the crew of a light armored personnel carrier can be safely loaded into bags.

            "Well, first of all, you have to get into them from a grenade launcher, because these cars are much smaller and faster than a tank or an infantry fighting vehicle." - you will be surprised what a skilled BMP or BMD gunner can make of such a machine. And the tanker doesn't even have to hit it for sure - a close enough gap and shrapnel shred the entire car.

            The task of all light armored personnel carriers is to transport personnel to the battlefield and patrol and sentinel functions. Light armored personnel carriers are not a replacement or even an analogue of an infantry fighting vehicle.

            "23 millimeter cannon bushmaster as on a crab" - Crab is a reconnaissance and patrol vehicle. She's not carrying a trooper. It does not belong to the class of light armored personnel carriers. A compound on the Crab will not be able to withstand a linear unit (equipped with tanks or infantry fighting vehicles) - the range of destruction and the level of protection are incomparable.

            Light armored personnel carriers are an excellent replacement for a cheap BMP replacement, but with the expectation that it is better for her not to encounter the latter.
        3. Pimply
          Pimply 3 June 2013 15: 02 New
          0
          The tank complex is the most complex and expensive, in Israel, for example, costs $ 250000. Complex for the car - three to four times less will cost
          1. JonnyT
            JonnyT 3 June 2013 16: 13 New
            +2
            why would it be cheaper? composing the same ...
            OK, but 80000 is too much for an armored car. In Syria, for 100 dollars, meat is fighting.
            The economy of not every state will pull such armored cars. And something vague doubts about the declared characteristics hold me. Maybe this is just a propelled move?
            1. Tourist Breakfast
              Tourist Breakfast 3 June 2013 16: 55 New
              +1
              why would it be cheaper? composing the same ...


              Different systems at all. In the tank complex, radar, in the automotive - sensors.
          2. Blackgrifon
            Blackgrifon 3 June 2013 19: 29 New
            +1
            "A complex for a tank is the most complicated and expensive, in Israel, for example, it costs $ 250000. A complex for a car will cost three to four times less" - may be cheaper, but the question is how effective it will be? And weight? Excess weight negates all the advantages of a light armored personnel carrier.
  3. Roll
    Roll 3 June 2013 10: 05 New
    +4
    wink Great cars, Bravo to the French. We also need to keep up. Of course, it is time to replace a significant part of the armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles with a wide fleet of armored cars. It is time for our soldiers not to ride on armor, like on carts, but in comfort, with a condenser. Since an armored car can be driven by any conscript soldier with category C or even B rights, this suits us. And such an amount, with such power, can easily beat quality like BMP -3. Armored vehicles and wheeled tanks are the most promising thing in the modern armored direction. Yes, and we still need to work out a new charter for wheeled armored vehicles as well as tactics and strategies based on France and China.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 3 June 2013 10: 37 New
      -2
      No armored car can replace the BMP.
      1. Roll
        Roll 3 June 2013 10: 54 New
        +2
        wassat And you would say this to French soldiers from a foreign legion or would offer Ameri soldiers during the Iraqi company to transfer from the haamer to our BMP 1 or 2. Here they are fun to ride for several hours on the armor or in the fighting compartment and not in the comfortable seats of the hamer with the air conditioner .
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 3 June 2013 11: 33 New
          0
          If I offered the American soldiers to change from Bradley or even Stryker to Humvee, they would look at me as if I was insane.
          1. Roll
            Roll 3 June 2013 11: 54 New
            +1
            wink Why, maybe they got in line, although the strike is closer to the armored cars, it’s still an armored personnel carrier, and a limited number of infantry fighting vehicles are needed, who are against it.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 3 June 2013 12: 06 New
              0
              The Stryker is not an armored car, but a full-fledged wheeled armored personnel carrier. As for the "limited number" - the Americans are catching up to 25 of their heavy brigades, the Stryker brigades - up to 8. In turn, the number of lungs is reduced to 40
              1. Mr. Truth
                Mr. Truth 3 June 2013 16: 25 New
                0
                Quote: Spade
                the number of their heavy brigades is catching up to 25 units, the Stryker brigades - up to 8. In turn, the number of lungs is reduced to 40

                They will cut from 8 to 13 brigades according to various sources, the 3rd battalions will be added to the brigades, respectively, their supporting units and an additional battery of howitzers. plus BSB renamed BEB and receives not one but two powerful engineering companies. thus, HBCT becomes ABCT, their number in the active component will be about 15 infantry brigades will reduce in favor of increasing the number of striker brigades.
            2. Blackgrifon
              Blackgrifon 3 June 2013 19: 33 New
              +1
              "Why, maybe they stood in line, although the strike is closer to armored cars, it's still an armored personnel carrier, and BMPs are needed in limited quantities, who is against it." - that I doubt it. The percentage of BM losses - armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles - in comparison with the losses of light armored personnel carriers - is significantly less (in favor of heavy armored vehicles).
          2. Akim
            Akim 3 June 2013 12: 02 New
            +1
            Quote: Spade
            If I were to suggest that American soldiers change from the Bradley or even the Stryker,

            Of course, we are not talking about total transplantation to light wheeled armored vehicles, but do not forget the Americans are now fighting in different conditions than the likely European theater of operations.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 3 June 2013 12: 19 New
              +1
              But what, is it better to storm the enemy’s defense saturated with anti-tank weapons at the European theater of operations in armored cars? Is not a fact.
              1. Akim
                Akim 3 June 2013 12: 29 New
                0
                Quote: Spade
                anti-tank means better defense of the enemy on armored cars? Is not a fact.

                It is logical that no. But the transfer of strike groups along the roads in Europe, which is densely populated, is probably better than the Georgian "Cobras" entered Ossetia where a completely different type of theater of operations. Gone are the days when Europe was girded with a thorn. There will be (God forbid, of course) mobile warfare. The modern version of the Blitzkrieg.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 3 June 2013 12: 42 New
                  0
                  Armored vehicles are applicable only at the stage of occupation. And even then it is limited. Here is a new "colonial" car for the Danes
            2. Roll
              Roll 3 June 2013 12: 30 New
              0
              wassat Looking at how to understand the word transplantation, no one offers to completely abandon the APC, but the soldiers who are now moving in the infantry, why not transfer to inexpensive and comfortable armored cars.
              1. Mr. Truth
                Mr. Truth 3 June 2013 16: 20 New
                0
                Quote: Rolm
                who are now moving on foot

                Such in large quantities only in the United States. NE of the Russian Federation and China are fully motorized and mechanized.
              2. Blackgrifon
                Blackgrifon 3 June 2013 19: 37 New
                +1
                Quote: Rolm
                wassat Looking at how to understand the word transplantation, no one offers to completely abandon the APC, but the soldiers who are now moving in the infantry, why not transfer to inexpensive and comfortable armored cars.


                Quote: Mr. Truth
                Such in large quantities only in the United States. NE of the Russian Federation and China are fully motorized and mechanized.


                However, the% of L / S trucks is very high even in the war zone. The replacement of the latter with armored vehicles and the replacement of morally and technically obsolete UAZs and BRDM with more advanced BMs is justified. Another thing is that replacing BMPs and tanks with light BMs is a reduction in firepower and l / s security at least.
        2. Blackgrifon
          Blackgrifon 3 June 2013 19: 32 New
          0
          "And you would say this to French soldiers from a foreign legion or suggest that Amerovski soldiers during the Iraqi campaign change from Hamers to our BMPs 1 or 2. Here, for fun, they ride for several hours on armor or in the fighting compartment and not in the comfortable seats of a Hamer with condenser. " - at the beginning of the Iraqi war, almost ALL "Hummers" had no armor. On many machines, the doors were dismantled for better visibility and accelerated disembarkation.
    2. Blackgrifon
      Blackgrifon 3 June 2013 19: 30 New
      0
      "It's time for our soldiers not to ride on armor like on carts, but with comfort, with a condenser." - the reason for the ride of our soldiers ON the armor is the design flaws of our BM. By the way, the Yankees do not ride on armor and, if possible, prefer something more protected than a light armored personnel carrier.
  4. Akim
    Akim 3 June 2013 10: 13 New
    +1
    Remember the news that in Russia they want to buy Panhard VBL for border guards? Is this solution still relevant?
    1. Alexey Prikazchikov
      Alexey Prikazchikov 3 June 2013 12: 05 New
      0
      No car a bit old too. But the Britons offered to jointly produce their new armored car with us, but the amers put a lot of pressure on them. But the armored car was too nice, it was already a pity that we don’t have one and it’s also modular, that is, a whole light platform. They specially created a brigade on such armored cars for action in low-intensity conflicts. Plus a brigade with challengers and new behi (also a platform) for serious opponents. Karoche did everything in their wits.
      1. Akim
        Akim 3 June 2013 12: 08 New
        0
        Quote: Alexey Prikazchikov
        But the British jointly offered their new armored car

        Shaw for a miracle?
        1. Alexey Prikazchikov
          Alexey Prikazchikov 4 June 2013 02: 54 New
          0
          Shaw for a miracle?


          Here it is
      2. Mr. Truth
        Mr. Truth 3 June 2013 16: 18 New
        0
        Quote: Alexey Prikazchikov
        Plus a brigade with challengers and new behi (also a platform) for serious opponents. Karoche did everything in their wits.

        False, they have 3 large mixed brigades (1 TB, 1 RB, 2 MPB, 2 PB) and several reserve infantry brigades (1 RB (l), 3-4 PB).
        1. Alexey Prikazchikov
          Alexey Prikazchikov 4 June 2013 02: 41 New
          0
          False, they have 3 large mixed brigades (1 TB, 1 RB, 2 MPB, 2 PB) and several reserve infantry brigades (1 RB (l), 3-4 PB).


          No, just as I said, but the 3rd and XNUMXrd teams are not small.
  5. Apostle
    Apostle 3 June 2013 10: 29 New
    +2
    Normal cars, but is there any correspondence in the issue of price-quality ???
  6. Roll
    Roll 3 June 2013 10: 30 New
    0
    request Still better than Sherpa-type armored cars, or our tiger hitched a Zubrenok type trailer with a 82-millimeter mortar and mines dropped the calculation, and cover it with a machine gun, the enemy just figured out calculating everything on the trailer and in another place, mobile and for urban fights efficiently. And also in conditions of urban battles to pick up the wounded and to deliver ammunition.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 3 June 2013 10: 36 New
      0
      Shooting with one mortar in 82 mm is ineffective
      1. Roll
        Roll 3 June 2013 10: 58 New
        0
        fellow I agree, but if a few dozen ?, of course, you can add a mortar to an infantry fighting vehicle, but this is too expensive.
  7. Dawn
    Dawn 3 June 2013 12: 41 New
    0
    Good machine for deserts.
  8. Mr. Truth
    Mr. Truth 3 June 2013 16: 33 New
    +3
    Here I am touched with comrades who talk about the effectiveness of light brigades, about some kind of mobile war unknown to me on armored cars, about something else.
    The future in land warfare is not for these SUVs. In addition to patrolling and guarding, such machines have no combat missions. Intelligence is better conducted by the BRM, it is safer and faster to transport any modern wheeled armored personnel carrier, passable by any utilitarian special forces jeep. There is no point in such cars.
  9. vomag
    vomag 3 June 2013 17: 34 New
    +1
    The picture shows the Panhard Crab in the urban scenario. A light, well-protected and well-armed machine from Panhard was the company's response to the challenges of the near future.

    Yes, this scenario of current among gay Frenchmen could arise in an inflamed brain! to drive this glamorous armored car into the conditions of a city battle, either from Versace or from Cardin? What will happen to him in 10 minutes of the battle ??? aha the first fighter for "freedom" with RPG7 will give everyone a light there! Then, a light well-protected couple are already taking doubts! so to everything and well-armed and you do not have a caazza that this is already too much! 3 extra ...... it’s a pity it was necessary to add that she also knows how to fly, then it would be a victory. on patrol or reconnaissance yes! Papuans there to drive around the metropolises and beat a show-off for one yes! in a city battle ??? Well, there at the headquarters of a messenger to fill in to a neighbor, but no more.
  10. bublic82009
    bublic82009 3 June 2013 23: 56 New
    +2
    all these cars are designed to conduct expeditionary wars somewhere in the sand. in our mud they are useless
  11. shurup
    shurup 4 June 2013 02: 31 New
    0
    That which has not been tested under permafrost conditions is not worth further discussion.
  12. mirag2
    mirag2 4 June 2013 07: 18 New
    0
    Quote: Tourist Breakfast


    It’s too wasteful to use such expensive ammunition against light wheeled vehicles.

    The cost of a soldier’s life is much higher. You read your post.
    1. Tourist Breakfast
      Tourist Breakfast 4 June 2013 10: 48 New
      0
      The cost of a soldier’s life is much higher. You read your post.


      I don't see the connection. Why spend "Javelin" on a light armored car, which can be shot from the DShK?
  13. sys-1985
    sys-1985 4 June 2013 09: 32 New
    0
    They are good on hard ground, but on our roads, it’s not right ... the paths get bogged down.
    1. Tourist Breakfast
      Tourist Breakfast 4 June 2013 10: 50 New
      0
      Video topic: