The heavy cruiser Des Moines – on armor and maneuverability zones versus the Project 66 cruiser

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The heavy cruiser Des Moines – on armor and maneuverability zones versus the Project 66 cruiser

Let's examine the armor of a ship that, according to our sailors' demands, was supposed to be fair game for Project 66 cruisers. This is perhaps the most difficult element of the De Moines to analyze. The problem is that the Americans, at the time, provided distorted and often inflated performance characteristics of their ships. For example, the Iowa-class battleships were long credited with having a 457 mm thick armor belt, while in reality, it was only 307 mm thick. This is perhaps one of the reasons why today we can find a plethora of contradictory information about the armor of the De Moines-class cruisers in Russian-language sources.

You can find an American cruiser armor scheme online:


But the problem with this scheme is that it corresponds to the preliminary design of the cruiser as of December 1, 1943. But the De Moines was laid down only on May 28, 1945, and during this time, a wide variety of changes could have been made to its armor scheme.

Next, I will go over all the main elements of the defense of "De Moines" and, so that the esteemed reader does not have to constantly refer to my previous material, I will give a comparison with the corresponding protection elements of the Project 66 cruiser.

Vertical protection of the side and beam


The citadel length of the cruiser De Moines, as originally designed, was 420 feet, or 128,016 meters. Given that the cruiser had a design waterline (DWL) of 213,36 meters, its citadel extended 60% of the De Moines' length. The citadel of the Project 66 cruiser also made up 60% of the hull, but since the cruiser was longer than the De Moines (242 meters DWL), it was just over 145 meters.

The De Moines' armor belt was 3,05 meters high, while the Type 66 cruiser's was 4,65 meters. By a strange coincidence, the Type 66's armor was supposed to protrude 3,05 meters above the waterline at normal displacement. The De Moines, of course, had a much lower height, as can be clearly seen in this photograph of her sister cruiser, the Salem.


At sea, the upper edge of the Des Moines' armor belt barely protruded above the water.


The De Moines's belt armor thickness was 152 mm, while that of Project 66 was 155 mm. While this would seem to be the same, the Soviet cruiser's main belt armor plates were 155 mm thick across the entire belt, while the De Moines's, according to most Russian-language sources, tapered toward the lower edge. The exact thickness is unclear.

In fact, descriptions of the De Moines' vertical protection are strikingly varied. Some claim that the armor plates of her belt, 152 mm thick at the top, were 102 mm thick at the bottom, or even 88 mm. However, others claim that the 152 mm armor plates were only present near the engine and boiler rooms, with the belt then rapidly thinning, dropping to 76,2–102 mm near the main battery turret feeder pipes.

Judging by the cruiser's sketch presented above, the armor opposite the propulsion plant was indeed different and stronger. It called for 152/102 mm (6-inch/4-inch) armor plates along the upper and lower edges, respectively. However, forward and aft of the engine and boiler rooms, 152/76,2 mm (6-inch/3-inch) plates were used. But, again, the diagram corresponds to the preliminary design, while in the final version, the entire belt could easily have been 152/102 or 152/88 mm. Furthermore, lacking experience with foreign drawings, I may have misread the diagram.

In any case, the 152mm armor belt within the citadel remained the only protection for the cruiser De Moines' side. The space two decks high above it and the ship's extremities were unarmored. Meanwhile, in the Project 66, the entire length of the citadel, from the upper edge of the main armor belt to the upper deck, was covered by 50mm of armor, and the main belt continued at the extremities with 20mm armor plates.

The De Moines' citadel was flanked by athwartships, but I don't know their thickness. Based on the armor diagram (and I'm not mistaken), the athwartship was 203 mm thick at the belt level, and 152 mm below. This was thicker than the Project 66 cruiser, whose bow athwartship was 170 mm thick at its thickest point, and its stern athwartship was 135 mm thick. However, it's important to remember that to reach the Soviet cruiser's athwartships, American shells would have to penetrate an additional 20 mm of side or deck armor outside the citadel, and the De Moines had no additional protection. Furthermore, according to some sources, the De Moines' athwartships were much more modest, not exceeding 127 mm.

Outside the citadel, the only vertical protection on the De Moines was the steering compartment, which was protected by the same 152 mm armor on the sides and 127 mm traverses; on the 66th, all of this was protected by 155 mm armor plates.

Artillery and conning tower


These components of the De Moines's protection are perhaps the least questionable. Sources more or less agree that her main battery turrets had 203 mm thick fronts, 95 mm thick side walls, and 102 mm thick roofs, while the barbettes were 160 mm thick. The Soviet cruiser had significantly thicker protection for the rotating part of the turret (300 mm front, 180 mm sides, 135-145 mm roof), and 155-180 mm thick barbettes.

Anti-aircraft artillery, including the 127mm turrets and feed pipes to them, judging by the De Moine diagram, had no armor protection at all. According to other sources, it was 19mm. The Project 66 cruiser's barbettes and turrets for the 130mm "universal" guns had 20mm and 25mm of splinter armor, respectively.

The American cruiser's conning tower was protected by 140–165 mm of armor, while the Soviet cruiser's was 170–210 mm.

Deck armor


Perhaps the most mysterious element of the De Moines' defense. I'd venture to call it "Schrödinger armor," because it simultaneously exists and doesn't. But first, a word about its thickness: I'll list all the versions I know from weakest to strongest.

So, almost all sources known to me indicate that the Des Moines' upper deck was reinforced to 25 mm to ensure the arming of ammunition entering the ship. And this deck was essentially "standalone," as it wasn't supported by or attached to any vertical armor.

However, the armor diagram from the preliminary design shows the upper deck to be 40 mm thick, not 25 mm. This, again, proves nothing, as the final armor design could have changed.

Two interdeck spaces below was the armored deck—and Russian-language sources offer a wide range of thicknesses! Some claim it's 65 mm, some 76 mm, and some even 95 mm.

I can speculate as follows. Several publications indicate that the De Moines' armor, with the exception of the 25mm upper deck, was identical to that of the Baltimore-class heavy cruisers. Our sources, however, list the Baltimores' armor deck as having a 65mm thick armor.

I admit this statement is incorrect. The error may be based on the fact that the De Moines' weight report (again, based on Russian-language sources) listed armor as the same proportion as the Baltimore—12,6%. However, equal armor "in proportions" and similar armor patterns do not necessarily indicate equal armor thickness. Moreover, the horizontal armor of the American cruisers was obviously factored into the hull weight.

The armor diagram of the De Moines' preliminary design shows a differentiated layout: 3 in (76 mm) over the propulsion plant and 3,5 in (89 mm) over the magazines. These thicknesses appear reasonable and logical; the only doubt is that such a layout, taking into account the 40 mm thick upper deck, is still a bit heavy for a cruiser with a standard displacement of 17,532 tons, especially one loaded with radars and anti-aircraft artillery.

Except... Judging by the drawings, the De Moines had no deck armor, and its role was performed by ordinary structural steel. Simply put, the Americans had the following definition for armor:

Class A armor - cemented armor;

Class "B" armor - homogeneous armor;

STS — structural steel.

So, if we look at the drawing, we will see STS there.


A small caveat: I came across information that the Americans could indicate category “B” armor with a thickness of 76 mm or less as STS. But “De Moine” does not fit this assumption either, since it indicates STS for a thickness of 89 mm (3,5 dm).

And if we assume that the decks of the De Moines were indeed ordinary steel, and not armored, then this perfectly explains why their weight was taken into account in the mass of the hull, and not the armor.

About underwater structural protection (USP)


Although it's not explicitly stated anywhere, it's quite clear that the De Moines did not have a "battleship-style" PKZ—with special compartments that served as expansion and absorption chambers, as was the case with the Project 66 cruiser. Cruisers weren't typically equipped with such protection due to the narrowness of their hulls, and the PKZ wasn't immediately incorporated into the Project 66. The reason the "battleship" PKZ was included in the cruiser design with 220mm guns was the extremely high standard displacement for this class, even in the first versions of the OTZ, reaching 23,000 tons. Sending a ship of this size to sea without a "battleship" PKZ would have seemed odd, which is why it was ultimately included in the design.

At the same time, the Americans, continuing their line of heavy cruisers, viewed the Des Moines as a ship with a classic cruiser hull design, and her displacement was much smaller. Nevertheless, they used armored transverse bulkheads (or were they thicker steel bulkheads?) to limit the spread of battle damage and, if possible, prevent shrapnel or other penetrations.

In contrast, on Project 66 cruisers, some of the longitudinal bulkheads of the main battery were armored with 30–35 mm of armor, and additional screens opposite the main battery magazines were 20–90 mm thick. According to some sources, the De Moines' main battery magazines had 102 mm of armor.

Perhaps the correct booking scheme for the Des Moines


The respected A. M. Vasiliev and A. B. Morin, in their work "Admiral N. G. Kuznetsov's Medium Cruiser. Project 66," presented what may be the true armor scheme of the American cruiser.


The diagram answers the questions raised above as follows: the De Moines' side was protected by 152 mm of armor, with no reduction in thickness toward the lower edge, but in the magazine areas, the main armor belt continued downward with 102 mm plates. The transverse bulkheads were only 127 mm thick. The internal bulkheads, "thickened" to withstand damage, were only 19 mm thick, and if this is true, their capabilities were little different from standard watertight bulkheads between compartments.

The deck along the entire length of the citadel was 89 mm thick, while the upper deck was thicker, but not to 40 or 25 mm, but only to 22,2 mm. Moreover, in both cases, only structural steel was used, not Class B armor.

Overall, it remains to be seen that the Project 66 cruiser, compared to the De Moines, had significantly more advanced armor. This is fully confirmed by the ships' weight reports. According to the revised draft design for Project 66, the armor mass reached 7742 tons, and its relative weight to standard displacement was 29,4%. The De Moines' armor was significantly less, both in absolute and relative terms: 2189 tons and 12,6%.

And here, it would seem, it would be appropriate to declare the complete superiority of the Project 66 cruiser over the Des Moines in terms of armor protection, but...

The devil, as they say, is in the details.

Homogeneous armor, cemented armor


The enormous weight of the armor intended for the Project 66 cruiser was largely offset by the fact that the designers of the design specifications mandated the use of exclusively homogeneous armor. The use of cemented armor was completely out of the question. The reasons for this decision are unclear, as I've written about before: perhaps the industry wasn't ready at the time to produce cemented armor plates of such size and quantity. But the result, as they say, was obvious. I'd even say, it was plain to see.

A bit of history


The term "cemented armor" encompasses a multitude of different types of armor, varying in chemical composition, cementation methods, and, consequently, durability. It was not uniform even within a single designation. For example, by the time Krupp armor was introduced, early examples of Harvey-cemented armor were 1,4 times less durable than Krupp armor, while later Harvey armor closely approximated the durability of Krupp armor.

The same is true for Krupp armor. When it first appeared, Krupp licensed its production, so its quality was very similar across all countries that adopted its production. This "original Krupp armor" was called "quality 420." But subsequently, each country sought ways to improve its resistance by changing its chemical composition and processing technology. Therefore, even during World War I, Krupp armor of varying resistance was encountered. And during World War II, cemented armor in different countries could vary significantly.

I determine the armor resistance using the coefficient “K” of the de Marr formula, which I have repeatedly cited in my articles, for example here, so there's no need to repeat myself. The higher this coefficient, the stronger the armor.

After analyzing numerous Krupp armor tests conducted in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, I concluded that the "K" of Krupp's "Quality 420" armor tended toward 2275 for shells without armor-piercing caps. The peculiarity of such caps was that they were useless against homogeneous armor, but significantly increased the shell's ability to penetrate cemented armor. Therefore, calculations for World War I shells equipped with armor-piercing caps yielded a significantly lower "K" value for "Quality 420"—2005.

Subsequently, the resistance of cemented armor increased. Thus, Professor L. G. Goncharov, in his work "Course of Naval Tactics. Artillery and Armor," published in 1932, recommended using a "K" value of 2134 for calculating armor resistance against projectiles with armor-piercing caps, and 2456 for projectiles without armor-piercing caps. In his work "Military Shipbuilding," republished in the USSR in 1935, its author, T. Evers, a lecturer at the German Higher Naval and Engineering School, recommended using a "K" value of 2337 for cemented armor. Although he doesn't explicitly state that he's talking about a projectile with an armor-piercing cap, the context suggests that's exactly what he's talking about.

The book "British, Soviet, French, and Dutch Battleships of World War II" (authors William H. Garzke and Robert Dulin) provides the calculated armor penetration of the 406-mm guns of the Nelson and prospective Lion battleships. According to this data, the "K" of British cemented armor was 2514.

But it's important to understand that, according to many sources, the British succeeded in creating the best cemented armor of the World War II era, while American and German armor was somewhat inferior in strength. Nevertheless, based on the above, we could expect a "K" rating of 2350–2400 from American cemented armor.

What did they think about this in the USSR?

On the armor resistance of the De Moines according to Soviet estimates


According to Soviet calculations, the De Moines' side armor could be penetrated by the 220mm/65 gun of a Project 66 cruiser from a range of 117 kbt. This was an ideal scenario for our gun, with the Soviet cruiser at a 90-degree course angle to the De Moines, meaning its armor was perpendicular to the Soviet shell's trajectory.

And here's where the first oddity arises: according to the tactical armor penetration diagram, the De Moines' side armor is not 152 mm, but 203 mm! The first thing that comes to mind is successful disinformation, and that our forces believed the De Moines was better protected than she actually was.



But I tested this hypothesis with calculations. And they showed the following. I took the firing range of the Soviet 220mm gun, firing a 176 kg projectile with a 260 kbt projectile at a muzzle velocity of 985 m/s at an elevation angle of 50 degrees. The projectile's shape coefficient was 0,5057. Accordingly, at 117 kbt, the Soviet projectile should have had an impact angle of 18,29 degrees and a velocity on armor of 461,7 m/s.

In this case, the resistance of American armor, according to de Marr's formula, was expressed as a "K" equal to 1960! This is an absurdly low value for World War II-era armor, but... it is very close to the "K" value I previously calculated in 2005 for the "original" Krupp armor, i.e., "quality 420."

This leads to a hypothesis. Our specialists were not at all mistaken in the De Moines' armor thickness of 152 mm, but, not knowing its exact resistance, they assumed it to be equivalent to 203 mm of "quality 420" for their calculations.

Why then wasn't the same value used in 2005? Firstly, what I calculated at the time for the armor shelling results of German and Russian dreadnoughts was nothing more than an estimate, and specialists, with far more data at their disposal, could certainly have determined the resistance of "quality 420" according to de Marr more accurately than I did. It's also possible that German and Russian armor was already improved and more resistant than "quality 420."

It's possible that the calculation method was different - I calculate armor penetration for the case when the ship is on an even keel and the shell hits it, having a deviation from the normal only by the angle of its impact, and our designers either did not take this angle into account at all, or took into account the ship's roll, which is advantageous for the gun.

But the most rational version seems to be that many years have passed since the time of the 1911 model shells, for which the “K” of 200,5 was calculated, and that shells for 220 mm guns received better material and armor-piercing caps, as a result of which the resistance to them of “quality 420” has somewhat decreased.

And here's what's interesting: if we assume that the De Moines' 152 mm armor was equivalent in resistance to a 203 mm armor plate with a "K" of 1960, then its "K" was 2400. And this is exactly in line with the data I know about armor from the Second World War. It turns out that American cemented armor is roughly on par with German armor in terms of resistance ("K" = 2337 according to T. Evers) and somewhat worse than British armor ("K" = 2514). Therefore, there is every reason to believe that by equating the De Moines' 152 mm side with a 203 mm armor plate of "quality 420" in resistance, the Soviet specialists hit the nail on the head, and that the "K" of American cemented armor was 2400. But what about Soviet armor?

On the durability of Soviet homogeneous armor


The revised design for Cruiser 66 assumed that domestically produced homogeneous armor with a thickness of 155 mm, under the same conditions—that is, when the De Moines was at a 90-degree course—would provide protection against its 203 mm shells at a range of up to 90 kbt. This corresponds to a "K" of 1886. How realistic is such resistance for homogeneous armor?

It's not prohibitive. For example, for the cruiser "Des Moines," the website navweaps.com, with a link to publications of armor penetration curves published in the "Naval" weapons The US Navy's 1942 report shows that for a 203mm gun with the same ballistics as the De Moine, it can penetrate 203mm of armor at a distance of 14,080 m, which corresponds to a K of 1736. The Germans indicated that for their 203mm guns on the Admiral Hipper-class heavy cruisers, it can penetrate a 200mm plate at a distance of 15,500 m, which corresponds to a K of 1754.


It's quite obvious that such a "K" is completely uncharacteristic of cemented armor, and that we're talking about homogeneous armor. However, it's completely unclear what kind of armor we're talking about: perhaps it's World War II-era armor, but... Back then, countries were in no hurry to tell the world about the durability of their armor and often quoted armor penetration values ​​in terms of "quality 420."

Be that as it may, "K" = 1886 for domestic armor appears to be an ambitious, but entirely achievable, goal. Nevertheless, it should be noted that the October 21, 1953, Conclusion on the Project 66 cruiser stated verbatim: "The thickness of the main side belt armor is calculated using increased projectile resistance coefficients compared to current specifications."That is, at the time Project 66 was developed, armor for it did not yet exist. And if it had not been developed, our cruiser's armor would have been penetrated by the De Moines' guns at a greater range than 90 kbt.

Conclusions


The use of homogeneous armor in the Soviet Project 66 cruiser design had a severely negative impact on its maneuverability under fire from the American heavy cruiser De Moines. According to the operational-tactical assignment, the Project 66 (at its worst possible armor position) was supposed to withstand attacks at a range of 90 cables. This, combined with the extremely powerful 220mm/65 guns, capable of penetrating the De Moines at a range of 117 cables, gave the Soviet cruiser a 27-cab zone where it could penetrate the American cruiser's vertical citadel armor while remaining invulnerable. This was an undeniable advantage of the Project 66, but...

Firstly, these figures might not have been achieved if the Soviet Union's development of improved armor had failed. In that case, the ZSM of the Soviet ship would have been even smaller.

Secondly, if the Project 66 cruiser had been equipped with armor of equal strength to that carried by the De Moines, it would have remained invulnerable to American 203mm guns up to 61 kbt. Thus, the Project 66 cruiser's maneuvering zone would have been 56 kbt instead of 27 kbt, effectively giving the Soviet ship overwhelming superiority over the De Moines at all reasonable artillery engagement ranges.

It can be concluded that if the Project 66 cruiser's operational protection requirements had not categorically required the use of homogeneous armor, the Project 66 cruiser, with a displacement of 26,230 tons, would have become a true "De Moines killer." Alternatively, the requirement to ensure the citadel's invulnerability at a range of less than 90 cables could have been satisfied, and the armor thickness could have been reduced by using cemented armor plates, thereby significantly reducing the cruiser's displacement.

Unfortunately, none of this was done.

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  1. +6
    3 September 2026 06: 07
    Out of interest, what is the thickness of the De Moine's hull plating outside the armor belt?
    In light of this:
    In American shipbuilding, there was a clear bureaucratic and design boundary between the concept of "armor" and the concept of "structural steel", even if their thickness was the same.


    Special Treatment Steel (STS) was used. The civilian fleet of that time was built from ordinary mild steel.
    1. +3
      3 September 2026 16: 04
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      Special Treatment Steel (STS) was used. The civilian fleet of that time was built from ordinary mild steel.

      By the way, we had the same thing - well, at least it was planned for the Project 66 cruisers
      1. +2
        4 September 2026 11: 27
        In the drawing where you highlighted in red, the upper armor is not 40 mm, but forty-pound (about 25 mm)
  2. +6
    3 September 2026 06: 43
    Thank you, Andrey, for continuing.
    It's worth noting that deck and athwart armor, regardless of the material, are always included in the hull weight of American ships, as is the torpedo protection. Side armor, barbette armor, conning towers, and turrets are all counted separately. This is due to construction technology and cost estimates, not the quality of the material. Furthermore, STS is close to "soft" homogeneous armor in terms of resistance.
    Regarding the resistance of thin cemented armor and homogeneous armor, the only advantage of cemented armor lies in deflecting oblique strikes. Under normal impact, the higher hardness of the "face" is offset by the low overall tensile strength of the plate. Therefore, cemented armor is of little use against 203mm shells up to a thickness of six inches.
    1. +7
      3 September 2026 06: 54
      Good day, Victor!
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      So, up to a thickness of six inches, cementation is of little use against 203mm shells.

      Well, we have an absolutely indisputable fact - our specialists believed that the armor of the "De Moines" had much greater resistance to the effects of armor-piercing shells than the armor of the Project 66 cruiser.
      1. +5
        3 September 2026 07: 06
        Test sites from 1912-1914 and 1937-1940 show a different story. And it's important to remember that test site reports vary widely. The Americans themselves disliked cemented armor unless it was subjected to oblique impacts (typical of the armor belt). Not quite on topic, but the Dunkirk turret roof armor performed dismally on July 3, 1940. So, the cemented armor situation is more or less clear if the plate thickness is 9 inches or more.
        Far more important (if we consider the hypothetical battle between Des Moines and Project 66 as a kind of analogue to Bismarck's final battle with the British battleships) is the protection of the artillery and the vulnerability of the fire control system. And a disarmed and blinded enemy can be finished off with destroyer torpedoes.
        1. +4
          3 September 2026 07: 52
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          Not quite on topic, but the roof armor of the Dunkirk turret showed itself to be disgusting on July 3, 1940.

          So there was just an oblique blow at an angle close to a ricochet.
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          The 1912-1914 and 1937-1940 testing grounds show something different.

          I don't know what changed, but our tests at the beginning of the century showed that Krupp armor plates of 127-171,45 mm thickness had a higher "K" than 9-12 inch armor plates. That is, they were even more resistant than thicker plates, the latter being stronger due to their thickness, not due to their resistance.
          https://topwar.ru/237600-ispytanija-120-mm-i-6-dm-morskih-snarjadov-1903-1906-gg-po-brone-kruppa.html
        2. +3
          3 September 2026 08: 06
          Not quite on topic, but the roof armor of the Dunkirk turret showed itself to be disgusting on July 3, 1940.

          What was wrong with it? Firstly, the "suitcase" was 381 mm (and the slab was 150 mm), and secondly, it ricocheted.
          1. +7
            3 September 2026 09: 17
            In fact, the shell destroyed the slab and struck personnel and equipment with secondary fragments. In a general sense, this demonstrates how the reaction of a thin slab varies depending on its ductility. A solid impact will cause a homogeneous slab to buckle, while a cemented slab (of which only about two-thirds of the thickness is ductile) will experience brittle failure.
            1. +5
              3 September 2026 15: 49
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              In fact, the shell destroyed the plate and hit personnel and equipment with secondary fragments.

              Usually they write not about the destruction of the armor, but about a hit without a rupture and a dent in the armor with a chip from the rear.
              The first hit the roof of the No. 2 main battery turret above the port of the starboard outer gun, severely denting the armor. Most of the shell ricocheted and fell to the ground approximately 2000 meters from the ship. A piece of armor or part of the shell struck the loading tray inside the starboard "half-turret," igniting the first two quarters of the unloading powder cartridges. All crew members of the "half-turret" perished in the smoke and flames, but the left "half-turret" continued to fire—an armored bulkhead isolated the damage.
              © Sergey Suliga. Dunkirk and Strasbourg.
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              In a general sense, this shows how much the reaction of a thin plate changes depending on its plasticity.

              And also, the Jacob de Mars method, given the multiple difference between shell caliber and armor thickness, doesn't work at any impact angle or effective thickness. Otherwise, the BMP-2's sloped front would have withstood even 152mm shells. laughing
              1. +4
                4 September 2026 06: 32
                Quote: Alexey RA
                And also - that Jacob de Mar does not work with a multiple difference in the caliber of the projectile and the thickness of the armor

                Not quite so. De Marr works perfectly well with this difference, but only on one condition: that the projectile's deviation from the normal remains within reasonable limits.
                Simply put, the de Marr formula is an empirical formula derived from test results. The tests were conducted at relatively small deviation angles from the normal, so it must be used with caution at larger deviations, taking into account the projectile's integrity curves.
                1. +1
                  4 September 2026 14: 29
                  By the 1940s, the DeMarr formula had been abandoned because it didn't take into account armor hardness, projectile warhead hardness, projectile warhead shape, projectile fragmentation, and it didn't work correctly under high-angle impacts. Extensive studies have been conducted on the penetration of the Beriht 166 and Supp 610, detailing the shortcomings of empirical formulas. What's wrong with the modern Facehard and M79 programs?
                  1. +2
                    4 September 2026 17: 41
                    Quote: vetal1942
                    What don't you like about modern Facehard and M79 programs?

                    The perch is a very creepy fish that loved to pull an owl onto a globe...
                    1. 0
                      4 September 2026 18: 24
                      This applies to all empirical formulas and everyone involved in their development. If you don't like Okun, let's go with NBL and Formel. But I'm still curious. Tell me what you didn't like about Nathan?
                      1. +2
                        4 September 2026 18: 53
                        Quote: vetal1942
                        But still, I'm curious, tell me what it is about Nathan that you don't like?

                        He liked to lie in places so that his formulas would work correctly...
                        For example, I was quite surprised when I read from him that the Germans welded armor-piercing caps to shells, and therefore, with spaced armor, removing the cap required a greater thickness of plating than for shells from other countries...
                        Everything would be fine, except that the Germans didn't weld the armor-piercing caps on - they soldered them: welding high-alloy steels in those years was very tedious and without a guarantee of success.
                      2. +3
                        4 September 2026 19: 04
                        I don't like everything about the M79 program either, but it's actually based on ADM, which is the most extensive research into armor-piercing shells I've ever seen. Despite the tediousness, all early Pzgr 39s in 50mm and 75mm calibers have welded caps, and brazed armor-piercing caps are indeed stronger than crimped ones. All empirical formulas are debatable, and one way or another, each formula creator tries to adjust the results to
                        themselves. But all the documents from the 40s and 50s clearly state that Krupp and De Marr were outdated and all countries of the world introduced new calculation systems.
                        formulas.
                      3. +3
                        4 September 2026 19: 10
                        Quote: vetal1942
                        and this is the most extensive study of armor-piercing shells that I have ever seen.

                        Undoubtedly, a large amount of work was done, but, IMHO, extrapolating tank shells to the sea is quite an undertaking...
                      4. +1
                        4 September 2026 19: 23
                        What's the difference? How does tank homogeneous armor differ from naval homogeneous armor? They're absolutely identical chromium-nickel-molybdenum steels. Homogeneous steels aren't subject to scaling effects, so larger calibers and masses won't significantly affect the calculation results. There may be differences when shelling naval structural steels; after all, they're much softer.
                      5. +4
                        4 September 2026 20: 01
                        Quote: vetal1942
                        How does tank homogeneous armor differ from naval homogeneous armor?

                        What if it's heat treatment... with different methods, the difference in hardness can be twofold for the same steels.
                      6. 0
                        4 September 2026 20: 13
                        Heat treatment is the same for chromium-nickel-molybdenum homogeneous armor steels. You harden the steel to austenite, which is quenching and tempering. Depending on the amount of alloying components, the hardening depth and the effect of temper brittleness will vary. But we're talking about the 40s, when everyone knew how to weld steel... In thicker steels, usually over 180-200 mm, you won't be able to properly harden the core, and bainite will develop, which is a potential problem... But with homogeneous armor, such thicknesses are usually out of the question.
                      7. +2
                        4 September 2026 20: 20
                        Quote: vetal1942
                        The heat treatment for chromium-nickel-molybdenum homogeneous armor steels is the same. You harden the steel to austenite, which is called quenching and tempering.

                        Yes. That's true. But depending on the hardening and tempering conditions, different mechanical properties can be achieved for the same set of alloys.

                        Quote: vetal1942
                        But in the case of homogeneous armor, such thicknesses are usually not discussed.

                        It's hard to say. The frontal armor plates of American battleship turrets were made of Class B armor, meaning homogeneous.
                      8. +3
                        4 September 2026 20: 32
                        Okay, you have three types of Wotan: hard (250-280 HBW), medium-hard (200-250), and soft (180-200). Open a grade book, for example, of British tank armor steels, IT80, with thicknesses ranging from 220-300 HBW. Naval armor steels are usually softer because they're much thicker, which is unavoidable if you don't want temper brittleness. But thicker tank armor steels will have the same hardness as naval armor steels. Moreover, we were talking about M79, the American tank armor steels used for the program calculations are very soft in both composition and hardening; they're copies of naval homogeneous steels. The ADA program wasn't strictly for land-based applications; it was a comprehensive study of the effects of projectiles on armor.
                      9. +1
                        4 September 2026 20: 52
                        The theme will need to be updated.
                        Thank...
                      10. +3
                        6 September 2026 00: 03
                        STS and Class B armor didn't contain molybdenum. It hadn't since 1914. The chemical composition of the steel was the same. It's just that Class B armor was 102 mm thick and thicker, and forged, not rolled. Until 1937, that is. STS sheets were thinner than 102 mm and were rolled.

                        Regarding thickness... the Iowa-class battleships had Class B armor on their main battery turret fronts. Ironically, the sides and rear of the turrets were made of Class A armor.
                      11. +2
                        7 September 2026 14: 10
                        Quote: vetal1942
                        But still, I'm curious, tell me what it is about Nathan that you don't like?

                        In the early 2000s, there was an epic story about the "destruction of armor-piercing tips by the plating of American battleships"—or how Okun changed his "world's most accurate method" three times. It is described in detail in the article by Mr. V. Sidorenko, "Some Considerations on Assessing Side Armor."
                        US Navy battleships South Dakota and Iowa.
                        In the works of V.N. Chausov, such as the monograph "Battleships of the South Dakota Type" and the article "Artillery and Armor" from the collection "Battleships of the Second World War", the side armor of the American battleships of the South Dakota and Iowa types is highly praised.
                        It is claimed that the thickened side plating of these ships could destroy the armor-piercing tips of enemy shells before they hit the main armor belt, dramatically reducing their armor penetration and, consequently, significantly improving the overall durability of the side armor. These claims are based on calculations and articles published online by Nathan Okun, a civilian programmer for the US Navy.

                        Initially, Okun claimed that the destruction of an armor-piercing tip (“removal of the cap”) required a thickness of a homogeneous armor of 0.0805 caliber of a projectile, on which, in particular, allegations were made about the inability of the Bismarck LC guns to effectively hit the South Dakota LC armor. That is, 32 mm of the outer skin supposedly should be enough to remove the armor-piercing tip of the 380 mm shell (0.0805 x 380 = 30.59). Bismarck - hello! But then it suddenly became clear (suddenly ?! more than half a century after the war!) That the shells of the German 380-mm gun required minimum external armor thickness, I emphasize - a minimum of 0.12 caliber, i.e. 0.12 x 380 = 45.6. If so, then the thickened lining of the South Dakota-type LC under the fire of the Bismarck-type LC did not play any role. And then what are the grounds for enthusiasm?
                        Under the pressure of this fact, Okun was forced to make changes to his program and set the thickness of the barrier for German shells (in Okunov - “shells with durable APC”) in 0.12 caliber. Incidentally, the same 0.0805 caliber was the basis for the assertion about the inability of the Yamato LC guns to effectively hit the onboard reservation of the Iowa LC. The only thing is that Okun deduced these regularities mainly from the results of experiments with different tank shells and corresponding armor. The results of experiments (very few) with large-caliber marine guns give different numerical patterns, and our fluffy fish was forced to once again raise the minimum required thickness. This time to 0.14 - 0.17 caliber (this is closer to the truth). And finally, the last “revelation” dated February 2004 - “The AP cap is ALWAYS removed by hitting a thick plate (the windscreen by hitting almost anything); the cap is shattered into pieces on face-hardened armor of over 0.25-caliber or so thickness and decapped on homogeneous plates of this thickness (at even less thickness at high obliquity). "
                        But Okun for many years argued categorically that his methodology (and the program written on it) is the most accurate in the world. How should it be evaluated after that?
                      12. +1
                        7 September 2026 16: 19
                        Okun has also taken quite a beating on Western forums. The only question is what the alternative is. While tankers, with access to Soviet, German, British, and American archives, can use real-world firing data and avoid resorting to empirical formulas altogether, I understand that such data is very limited in the case of naval shells and armor. In any case, we'll have to calculate it. Does anyone have any data on how much less accurate Okun is than De Marr?
                      13. +2
                        7 September 2026 18: 08
                        Quote: vetal1942
                        In the case of naval shells and armor, as I understand it, such data is very limited. In any case, we'll have to do the math.

                        For the Germans there is Unterlagen und Richtlinien zur Bestimmung der Hauptkampfentfernung und der Geschosswahl.
                        It contains graphs of armor penetration depending on the distance.
                        The only thing is that the Germans adopted their version of the KS armor and the homogeneous Wh as a standard.
                      14. 0
                        7 September 2026 22: 32
                        Yes, by the way, there are tables for 203mm shells, for cemented and homogeneous armor. However, the report seems to date back to 40, while armor-piercing shells with blunt warheads and thick, superhard tips appeared in US and British service at the end of the war. They are claimed to be much stronger and more effective.
                      15. +1
                        8 September 2026 18: 29
                        Quote: vetal1942
                        Only the report seems to date back to 40, and armor-piercing shells with blunted warheads and thick, super-hard tips appeared in the arsenals of the USA and Great Britain at the end of the war.

                        There are a couple of points here.
                        The Germans used the concept of a solid armor-piercing tip, it was made from the same steel as the projectile and quenched in oil. I have the quenching conditions, but I don’t have the chemistry of the steel, so it’s impossible to say what the mechanics of the end result were.
                        In the late 30s and early 40s, the Germans experimented extensively with the shape of armor-piercing tips and the shape of the projectile's nose (there was even a variant with a "flat" nose). I have no information on whether these experiments were put into production.
                        The only thing known is that the series included a 203 mm armor-piercing projectile, whose armor-piercing tip was made integral with the projectile cup.
                  2. +2
                    4 September 2026 18: 25
                    Quote: vetal1942
                    By the 1940s, DeMarr's formula had been abandoned because it did not take into account the hardness of the armor, the hardness of the projectile's warhead, the shape of the projectile's warhead, or the destruction of the projectile.

                    The beauty of de Marr is that he takes EVERYTHING into account:))))
                    Quote: vetal1942
                    What don't you like about modern Facehard and M79 programs?

                    Nathan Okun? Brrr, thank you very much...
                    1. +1
                      4 September 2026 18: 54
                      Okay. So, you have an American 203mm shell with an armor-piercing tip. At what velocity will it disintegrate against cemented armor, and at what velocity against homogeneous armor? How did you factor this into the formula? How did you account for the hardness of its warhead? After all, later American shells are much harder than earlier ones. How did you account for the hardness of the armor-piercing tip?
                      1. +1
                        4 September 2026 21: 24
                        Quote: vetal1942
                        So, you have an American 203 mm shell with an armor-piercing tip. At what speed will it be destroyed against cemented armor, and at what speed against homogeneous armor?

                        To find this out, we need the results of firing these armor plates with these (or similar) projectiles. We'll use these to calculate "K" and then apply it to these projectiles and armor at various velocities/thicknesses/calibers.
                        That's the whole trick. Real-world firings, with all these warhead hardnesses and so on, yield an empirical ratio between armor resistance and a projectile's ability to penetrate it.
                      2. +1
                        4 September 2026 21: 40
                        I have the utmost respect for your work, but I'm willing to bet you don't have any data on the penetration of American Mk21mod5 shells against Soviet homogeneous and cemented armor. But let's continue with the De Marre formula. Let's assume you have data on normal-angle penetration. How would you use the Krupp formula to convert penetration to other angles? Does the De Marre formula take into account how and when plastic deformation transitions to adiabatic shear?
                      3. +1
                        4 September 2026 22: 23
                        Quote: vetal1942
                        I have great respect for your work, but I'm willing to bet that you don't have any data on the performance of American Mk21mod5s against Soviet homogeneous and cemented armor.

                        Thank you! Of course not. What's interesting is that the programs you recommended don't have this data either. It's not available anywhere. So, to say that this program is more accurate...
                        Quote: vetal1942
                        Does De Marre's formula take into account how and when plastic deformation turns into adiabatic shear?

                        Tell me, why is this necessary? Do you think taking such nuances into account will lead to a more accurate calculation? I seriously doubt it.
                        Armor penetration isn't an exact science. While there are certain points that can be stated with near certainty, the same shells fired at the same armor plate at the same angle can produce completely different results. Examples are here.
                        https://topwar.ru/237600-ispytanija-120-mm-i-6-dm-morskih-snarjadov-1903-1906-gg-po-brone-kruppa.html
                        The physics of armor penetration are very complex. I chose de Marr's formula because it's simple, straightforward, and only works in real-world scenarios.
                        But taking a program where Okun or someone else somehow extrapolated the patterns they themselves had derived... I don't see any guarantees at all that it will be more accurate.
                        That being said, I don't prescribe ZSM based on my own calculations—that was done for me by specialists in the 50s. I'm simply translating their results, which they probably considered more accurate methods, into de Marr's "K."
                      4. +1
                        4 September 2026 23: 00
                        Yes. Because DeMarr isn't suitable for thin armor (shear failure) or very thick and viscous armor (complete plastic deformation). It's mercilessly misleading when fired at high impact angles and misleading when considering shell fragmentation. The figure shows the actual K values ​​for armor-piercing shells; the shells are intact and the impact angle is low. For a 50mm shell, K fluctuates between 2350 and 2550, and for an 88mm shell, it fluctuates between 2000 and 2350. This is simply because the type of penetration changes, and with increasing thickness, the hardness and strength of the armor changes! In the case of failure (severe deformation of the shell), K can jump to 2700-2800, and given that you took 2000 for homogeneous armor, what percentage of error will that be? I completely agree with you: when there's a table with all possible velocities and angles for a given projectile and specific armor, it's possible to derive very precise K values ​​and obtain reliable data. More often than not, this isn't possible.... And in such cases, it's important to be upfront that the calculated data can differ significantly from the actual data.
                      5. +2
                        5 September 2026 08: 36
                        Quote: vetal1942
                        Yes. Because De Marr is not suitable for thin (shear failure) or very thick and viscous (complete plastic deformation).

                        I agree, but these are extreme cases that matter for tanks, not for naval armor or shells. For example, a WWI-era AP shell, at a 40-degree angle, won't penetrate armor even 0,6 times its caliber intact. Consequently, calculations of armor penetration at high angles are completely meaningless.
                        Quote: vetal1942
                        The figure shows the actual values ​​of the K coefficient for armor-piercing shells.

                        Let me question that. Please understand, I'm not trying to defend my position at all costs; de Marr is certainly not a timeless formula. But I seriously doubt this graph is realistic. For example, for an 88mm shell against a 160mm armor plate, the "K" is listed as 2200. Who determined that, and how?
                        To accurately and precisely determine the K for a given thickness, you need to fire at least a dozen shells at a 160mm plate, preferably more. They won't have a single K, but a range of K, and a fairly wide range at that, in which the shell's penetration probability decreases. This process continues for each value on this graph.
                        That is, the graph would be accurate if separate and multiple tests were conducted for each sheet thickness, and then some average value was taken to approximate the penetration. But who would do that?
                      6. +1
                        5 September 2026 10: 02
                        Let's try looking at it from a different perspective. The USA, 1931, adopted the Thompson formula to replace De Marr. Germany, 42, conducted extensive research on armor-piercing projectiles, adopted the Formell formula, with a third of the report citing its superiority over the De Marr and Krupp formulas. Britain, 42-42, conducted extensive research on armor-piercing projectiles, adopted the NBL formula. The USSR, 45-46, abandoned the De Marr formula, and relied on calculations based on actual firing curves. Then there's Okun with his formulas. I don't know which is more accurate, but the conclusion is clear.
                      7. +1
                        5 September 2026 11: 30
                        Quote: vetal1942
                        Let's try to look at it from the other side.

                        With pleasure
                        Quote: vetal1942
                        Germany, 42, global research into armor-piercing projectiles, Formell's formula,

                        Are you talking about it?
                        P = P₀ × (v / v₀)^n,
                        If so, then it's the same empirical evidence, just a different relationship. But the whole point is that in Germany, for 42 years, they conducted what I believe was research not on naval armor or naval shells, but on tank shells. I have no doubt you're right, and that the formulas you recommend yielded the best results. But I'm not sure they should be applied to ships, given the well-known differences between naval and tank shells.
                        If you could provide me with a formula or method instead of de Marr's, I'd be happy to try it out, calculating it on known armor penetration cases, and see what correlates best. But I'm not sure I can do it quickly.
                      8. +1
                        5 September 2026 16: 22
                        You're right, the German and English formulas are based on homogeneous armor. You're more likely to use cemented armor, and using them would be incorrect. But if Okun is so unpopular, why not try Thompson? I wonder if the convergence will improve.
                      9. +2
                        5 September 2026 07: 20
                        Believe it or not, our "experts" didn't calculate anything using any other formulas. Because these ancient postulates of de Marr are the foundation of the Normative Method.
                        But for themselves, the strength specialists concocted a bunch of methods that generated another batch of candidate dissertations, headed by a doctoral dissertation, but did not lead to a change in the Normative Method.
                      10. +2
                        5 September 2026 08: 38
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        Believe it or not, our “experts” didn’t calculate anything using any other formulas.

                        laughing good
                        Thank you, I didn't know:)))))
                        However, they at least had a much larger array of data to draw the correct values ​​for the "K" coefficients - they had a multitude of test results and various experiments at their disposal.
        3. +4
          3 September 2026 18: 03
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          a kind of analogue of Bismarck's last battle with the British battleships

          IMHO, this is an incorrect analogy: the Bismarck was initially without a drive and could not be controlled.
          Otherwise he would have left the British.
          1. +3
            3 September 2026 19: 11
            Greetings, Maxim!
            That's why I wrote "some"
            If my instincts are correct, Andrey is aiming to try and stage a decisive battle of cruisers a la Tsushima, although the tactical diversity of cruiser confrontations is much more varied.
            1. +2
              3 September 2026 19: 14
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              Andrey is trying to arrange a decisive battle of cruisers a la Tsushima

              Then, rather, Ulsan, La Plata, Commanders...
  3. +4
    3 September 2026 08: 50
    An aerial bomb or missile, having penetrated the stern, could have caused damage to the shaft fastenings.
    So, the pipes at the base, the grates, aren't armored at all? Or are the grates 3,5 cm?
    1. +3
      3 September 2026 16: 02
      Quote: Tlauicol
      And the pipes at the base, the grates, it turns out, are not armored at all?

      It's possible that's the case. Perhaps someone who works with English-language literature could comment on this.
      Quote: Tlauicol
      An aerial bomb or missile, having penetrated the stern, could have caused damage to the shaft fastenings.

      Of course. But a cruiser isn't designed to be immune to all dangers, otherwise it would be a battleship. Compromises, sir!
      1. 0
        3 September 2026 16: 53
        There were grates anyway, but what were they made of? That's not really important, though.
        The De Moine is a real gift for the very first anti-ship cruisers - with its draft and the height of the armor belt, it will get a good hole in the side, and water will rush into the boiler rooms.
        1. +1
          4 September 2026 19: 01
          Debatable. The initial success of Soviet missiles was stunning. But then – zero. That was against Israel. The Indians gave the Pakistanis a run for their money. But they hit Pakistan as they pleased. And the Jews quickly found countermeasures against those missiles. Conventional decoys. Helicopters, etc. Remember that the British diverted Exocets with conventional chaff reflectors. And that's a completely different generation of missiles.
          And the De Moines' anti-aircraft armament was second to none. 127mm and 76mm automatic guns with radar fuses and radar guidance. And there were plenty of them.
          1. +1
            4 September 2026 19: 51
            At the level of World War II, yes. But for the 1950s, it's pathetic. The 127mm ones from the 1930s are especially outdated...
            It's still strange that, given their rate of fire, the Mk-16s weren't used for air defense. However, at ranges beyond 100 cables, they would have been useless anyway; the era of large-caliber barrel artillery is over.
          2. 0
            4 September 2026 20: 58
            The first success could have been (hypothetically, of course) not Eilat, but Des Moines. And not Termit, but KSS or Strela. Much earlier.
  4. +1
    3 September 2026 09: 15
    Thank you very much for the interesting continuation!
    1. +2
      3 September 2026 16: 00
      You are always welcome, dear Dmitry!
  5. +4
    3 September 2026 18: 00
    perhaps the true armor scheme of the American cruiser.

    Data from Friedman, source diagram from there too.

    The Germans specified the ability of their 203mm guns on the Admiral Hipper-class heavy cruisers to penetrate a 200mm plate at a distance of 15,500 m.

    Actually, 14850 m seems like a small thing, but it plays a role in the calculations...
    The Germans calculated penetration based on their Wh armor.
    In addition, there is a caveat - the distance at which the projectile penetrates the barrier as a whole, which gives rise to a second caveat - the Germans considered penetration as a whole if the projectile penetrated the armor barrier as a whole by more than half the length of the projectile cup.
    Well, the Germans had very specific testing conditions: they fired at a free-standing slab.
    1. +1
      4 September 2026 06: 11
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Data from Friedman, source diagram from there too.

      Is it good or bad?
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      Actually, 14850 m seems like a small thing, but it plays a role in the calculations...

      Of course. With the changes you've made, "K" will no longer be 1,754, but 1,810.
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      The Germans calculated penetration based on their Wh armor.

      What's very strange is the extremely low "K" for a cemented one. Or was it uncemented?
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      The Germans considered penetration to be complete if the projectile penetrated the armor barrier completely by more than half the length of the projectile cup.

      Perhaps the low "K" is a consequence of the "special" requirements for the shell to penetrate armor. It's also possible that the Germans only considered the velocity on the armor, but didn't take into account the shell's impact angle (if at 90 degrees or 0 degrees from the normal, the K would be 1856, plus the special conditions).
      1. +4
        4 September 2026 17: 57
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Is it good or bad?

        This is a statement.
        Friedman often uses the phrase "according to the project..."

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Or was it not cemented after all?

        Wotan hart - homogeneous armor.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Perhaps the low "K" is a consequence of "special" requirements for the projectile to penetrate the armor.

        There was apparently some kind of deal there: according to the available data, when penetrating, the shell cup cracked in the rear third, at the transition from the cylindrical part to the rear centering thickening.
  6. 0
    3 September 2026 19: 07
    According to the revised draft design 66, the armor mass reached 7742 tons, and its specific gravity in standard displacement was 29,4%. The De Moines' armor was significantly smaller in both absolute and relative terms—2189 tons and 12,6%.
    And wherein
    The Project 66 cruiser, with a displacement of 26,230 tons, would have become a real “De Moines killer”

    The De Moines' displacement is 25000 tons, practically the same, but the armor is much lighter. What did our ships sacrifice to achieve a similar level of armor compared to the De Moines' with a comparable displacement?
    1. +4
      3 September 2026 19: 25
      Actually, according to the reference book All Cruisers of the Second World War Patyanin S.V., Dashyan A.V., Balakin K.S. M.Yauza/Eksmo 2012, the standard/full displacement of De Moine is 17255 t/20950 t.
      According to the Medium cruiser of Admiral N.G. Luznetsov Project 66 Vasiliev A.M., Morin A.B. St. Petersburg Gangut 2013 standard/full displacement of Project 66 - 26230 t/30850 t.
      1. +1
        3 September 2026 19: 40
        Quote: Victor Leningradets
        Actually, according to the reference book All Cruisers of the Second World War Patyanin S.V., Dashyan A.V., Balakin K.S. M.Yauza/Eksmo 2012, the standard/full displacement of De Moine is 17255 t/20950 t.
        I checked, you're right. The issue is resolved.
      2. +1
        3 September 2026 20: 03
        Quote: Victor Leningradets
        17255 t/20950 t.

        The figure is from Conway, but Friedman adds a note to this data: "Design...", that is, "design".
        But how much there actually was is an interesting question.
        1. +1
          3 September 2026 20: 06
          Well, Project 66 is also not factual.
          All these speculative juxtapositions are only possible within the framework of projects. Later, everything either ends up in the hands of practitioners or in the archives.
  7. +1
    3 September 2026 19: 09
    Incidentally,
    Project 66 cruiser with a displacement of 26,230 tons
    , and the Dreadnought had a displacement of 25000 tons. Wouldn't it have been better to build dreadnoughts (which is what they did in the States—Alaska)?
    1. +1
      3 September 2026 19: 15
      Quote: bk0010
      Wouldn't it have been better to build dreadnoughts (which is what they did in the States - Alaska)?

      We have "Stalingrads"...
    2. 0
      3 September 2026 19: 27
      Honestly, my hands are itching to model Alaska vs. Project 66!
      1. +2
        3 September 2026 20: 04
        Quote: Victor Leningradets
        Honestly, my hands are itching to model Alaska vs. Project 66!

        "Overkill" won't work? :)
        1. 0
          3 September 2026 20: 45
          Here, Maxim, a pale shadow of the Duke of York and Scharnhorst's battle is truly possible. And if you skillfully season it with mathematics...
          1. 0
            3 September 2026 20: 47
            Quote: Victor Leningradets
            And if you season this with some math...

            The main thing is not to forget about all sorts of accidents... wassat
            1. 0
              3 September 2026 20: 48
              This is also mathematics, probability theory.
              1. 0
                3 September 2026 21: 18
                Quote: Victor Leningradets
                This is also mathematics, probability theory.

                "Bismarck" and "Hood" exchange winks with "Scharnhorst", which is nervously puffing on a cigarette. :)
                1. +1
                  4 September 2026 09: 23
                  And yet!
                  If there's a chance, there's a certain probability it will be realized. Remember the gentlemen of the Isle of Wight and their prediction of how to repel dive bombers (HMS Willis, Alistair MacLean).
                  1. +1
                    4 September 2026 18: 04
                    Quote: Victor Leningradets
                    Remember the gentlemen of the Isle of Wight and their prediction of how to repel dive bombers?

                    Wale... :)
                    "Ulysses" is beautiful, but the owl is stretched too far onto the globe.
                    Even the "towns" were drawn from something smaller...
              2. 0
                4 September 2026 00: 55
                Well, yes.
                But it is possible to simulate this matter more than once.
                You can simulate 100500 and ultimately get an answer - who will be stronger.
                But here's the rub - the CREW is what's hard to model.

                Once upon a time, I played the game REALMS 9 (real-time strategy).
                So, I had a heavy infantry squad with a whopping amount of experience (a squad is a regiment or battalion, with a strength of 900-1000 at damage; I'll call it a REGIMENT from now on). And this REGIMENT got into a battle – on my side there was only this squad (a regiment or battalion – with a strength of 900-1000 at damage), and on the enemy side there were two light infantry regiments, a heavy infantry regiment, two light cavalry regiments, and a heavy cavalry regiment. The result of the battle – my regiment wiped them all out!!! True, only 25-30% of it remained, but the enemy fled!!! I tried to do this again later, but I couldn't accumulate enough experience to become elite. My point is – a ship isn't just an iron construct; it also has a crew that operates it, and the crew also needs to be taken into account.
                1. +4
                  4 September 2026 06: 14
                  Quote: Evgesha
                  What this means is that a ship is not just an iron structure, but also the crew that operates it, the crew must also be taken into account.

                  It depends on the question we're answering. When comparing ship designs, differences in crew training are NOT taken into account. That is, the crew is assumed to be equally trained—and rightly so.
                  If the outcome of a possible confrontation under specific conditions is being modeled, then yes, the crew needs to be taken into account
                2. +2
                  4 September 2026 09: 32
                  H.R. Haggard. King Solomon's Mines. Chapter: The Last Stand of the Grays.
                  Your particular case is artistically described there.
    3. +1
      4 September 2026 11: 49
      Dreadnought displacement:
      about 17,000 tons - standard
      18,400 t - normal
      21,000 t - full
      In terms of displacement, Dreadnought is similar to the Des Moines.
  8. -1
    4 September 2026 02: 57
    I don't know what you're talking about, but these ships would have had very little chance of meeting in combat. The entire Soviet "large fleet," especially the post-war one, would have been simply bombed by the Americans with carrier-based aircraft. All Soviet projects for coupe-based artillery ships after WWII were floating targets, a waste of resources, and generally insane.
    Just as all the writings of the local Topvarov naval enthusiasts, including the famous sect of Aircraft Carrier Witnesses, are pure insanity and graphomania.
    1. +1
      4 September 2026 06: 15
      Quote: squid
      The entire Soviet "large fleet", especially the post-war one, would have been simply bombed by the Americans with carrier-based aircraft.

      Quote: squid
      including the famous Aircraft Carrier Witnesses sect

      L-logic....
    2. +1
      4 September 2026 08: 11
      Quote: squid
      All Soviet projects for coupe artillery ships after WWII were floating targets.

      Should we have gone straight to missile cruisers?
      1. -1
        4 September 2026 09: 52
        Quote: Trapper7
        Should we have gone straight to missile cruisers?

        Well, not exactly missile-based; anti-aircraft artillery is needed, but MLRS could be used to support ground forces and counter coastal batteries. Such systems were adopted in the early 60s... I think. But for some reason, only on small ships, although they were also effective on cruisers, which could have carried larger missiles.
        During WWII, MLRS were installed on torpedo boats, but the TK chatters like a turtle, and shooting accuracy was a distant dream.
        1. +4
          4 September 2026 10: 28
          Quote: Konnick
          But for some reason only on small ships

          Perhaps it was because MLRS were fundamentally incapable of targeting pinpoint targets and could not replace barrel artillery in any operation?
          1. 0
            4 September 2026 10: 41
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Quote: Konnick
            But for some reason only on small ships

            Perhaps it was because MLRS were fundamentally incapable of targeting pinpoint targets and could not replace barrel artillery in any operation?

            You can fire a salvo at pinpoint targets, and something will hit. I think the admirals' inflexible thinking prevented their implementation. Today, MLRS systems have sufficient accuracy, range, and power. For example,
            The 9M55K5 is a rocket-propelled projectile with a 9N176 cluster warhead and shaped-charge fragmentation warheads (HEAT). The cluster warhead contains 646 118mm-long or 588 128mm-long cylindrical warheads, each weighing 240g. The 118mm-long warheads can penetrate up to 120mm of homogeneous armor, while the 128mm-long warheads can penetrate up to 160mm. It is most effective against motorized infantry on the move, mounted in armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles. A total of 12 projectiles contain 7,752 or 7,056 warheads. It is designed to defeat exposed and sheltered personnel and lightly armored vehicles.

            It will cover a pinpoint armored target very well.
            1. +2
              4 September 2026 11: 45
              Quote: Konnick
              You can hit the pinpoint targets with a salvo, and something will hit.

              I read at one point that when calculating the number of forces and the expenditure of shells for artillery preparation during WWII, our MLRS weren't taken into account. Not at all. Well, they offered no guarantee of destroying pillboxes, bunkers, and all that, and were only effective against area targets.
              Quote: Konnick
              Currently, MLRS systems have sufficient accuracy, range and power.

              No. Firstly, only when using targeting systems. Secondly, you're not talking about today, you're talking about the 50s. Where would you get a Smerch, which went into production in 1987?
            2. +1
              4 September 2026 19: 07
              Yes, there's war here. And the stunning effectiveness of the MLRS isn't noticeable. The damage is purely random. A column on the march—the column is finished. Buried infantry and artillery—the effect is more psychological. The damage is random. Life teaches ground troops quickly. The stupid and lazy die quickly there.
              Until there are normal guided missiles, only those from MLRS can be shown only in programs.
        2. +2
          4 September 2026 10: 36
          Quote: Konnick
          Well, not exactly missile-based; anti-aircraft artillery is needed, but MLRS could be used to support ground forces and counter coastal batteries. Such systems were adopted in the early 60s... I think. But for some reason, only on small ships, although they were also effective on cruisers, which could have carried larger missiles.

          Yes, but why? © smile
          Landings and other troop support operations can only be carried out when you have naval and air superiority. Otherwise, the landing force will sink to the seabed, along with the fire support ships.
          And yes, the USSR began designing missile-armed ships in the late 40s. Based on existing designs, they were designed to carry the first anti-ship missiles (variations on the Kometa design) and ballistic missiles.
          Quote: Konnick
          During WWII, MLRS were installed on torpedo boats, but the TK chatters like a turtle, and shooting accuracy was a distant dream.

          RS were installed in so many places during WWII... and then removed "to be on the safe side." smile
          Gangut published an article about the missile armament of the "sea hunters," citing the report that led to the decision to surrender the missile ships. The report was truly epic: rusty missile ships were discovered at the Ministry of Defense, sitting on their rails for months, with their fuse pins pulled out and their rotors twisted. Even though the fuses were triggered by a slight jolt. belay
  9. +3
    4 September 2026 11: 03
    The author has a poor understanding of an artillery duel between two cruisers. It should occur at sharp angles during pursuit, not like a battleship duel in a line. Side armor is less important in this case, and at angles greater than 45 degrees, homogeneous armor is superior. Deck armor is the most vulnerable, and here it is crucial to have low-power charges to penetrate horizontal armor as closely as possible.
    1. 0
      4 September 2026 11: 51
      Quote: Kostadinov
      The author has a poor understanding of the artillery duel between two cruisers.

      I would say that Kostadinov has a poor understanding of artillery duels at sea.
      Quote: Kostadinov
      It must occur at the sharpest course angles during pursuit.

      Yeah. But what if neither cruiser wants to escape? Should we agree on the radio, like, "Let's say you run today, and I'll catch up, and then the other way around tomorrow?"
      Quote: Kostadinov
      In this case, the side armor is of less importance and at course angles greater than 45 degrees, homogeneous armor is better.

      At course angles of "more than 45 degrees" the deviation from the normal abeam becomes less than 45 degrees - when protecting the side in this way, the bow or stern is exposed
      1. +1
        4 September 2026 14: 10
        And it’s in vain, Andrey, that you don’t listen to Kostadinov.
        He speaks the truth, and when it comes to modeling, it is tactics that will decide the outcome of the battle under the given conditions.
        And yes, what should you do if Newport News comes to Des Moines for company?
        1. -1
          4 September 2026 18: 31
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          And it’s in vain, Andrey, that you don’t listen to Kostadinov.

          No, it was not in vain:))
          You see, all other things being equal, the ZSM doesn't really depend on the course angle - the distance to the enemy changes, yes, but if the course angle is (66th at 90 and Demon at 90, 66th at 45 and Demon at 45), then the ZSM changes little.
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          When it comes to modeling, it is the tactics that will decide the outcome of the battle under the given conditions.

          Tactical advantage is not a strength or weakness of a ship's design. Therefore, when comparing designs, tactics are a superfluous, interfering factor.
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          And yes, what should you do if Newport News comes to Des Moines for company?

          What should Newport News and Des Moines do if two squadrons of Tu-16s with KC-1 Comets under their wings arrive at the 66th? And what does all this have to do with ship designs?
          1. +2
            4 September 2026 18: 56
            What does this have to do with ship designs?

            Direct: all of a ship's characteristics, when combined, constitute its purpose and capabilities. The goal of games is to determine the limits of these capabilities.
            You start, and we (and not just me) will continue. You'll see for yourself.
  10. +3
    4 September 2026 12: 34
    But what if neither cruiser wants to escape? Should we agree on the radio, like, "Let's say you run today, and I'll catch up, and then the opposite tomorrow?"

    If no one wants to run away, then they will also go at sharp angles towards each other until they hit or collide.
    In the real world, the one with the higher speed will maintain an advantageous distance and course angle, staying in a zone where it can maneuver freely and still be able to engage the enemy. And this isn't so difficult for the Project 66, which has a higher speed, a thicker and more robust deck, and a low-velocity charge.
    At course angles of "more than 45 degrees" the deviation from the normal abeam becomes less than 45 degrees - when protecting the side in this way, the bow or stern is exposed

    Of course, the fore or aft traverse and the turret fronts are exposed at this angle. But firstly, they are much smaller as targets than the horizontal projection, and secondly, they are thicker than those of the De Moines. The Project 66 turret fronts are 300 mm thick, so the traverse at a 50-degree heading angle would be 145 mm at 40 degrees, but before that, a 203 mm shell would have to penetrate the forward armor belt at a steep angle. If calculated, the thickness and angle of these two armor barriers would be approximately the same as 300 mm at a right angle. It also needs to be taken into account that the armor belt at the fore end would be pierced by the armor-piercing tip of a 203 mm shell.
    1. 0
      4 September 2026 18: 00
      Quote: Kostadinov
      In the real world, the one with the higher speed will maintain an advantageous distance and course angle and be in a zone where it can maneuver freely and at the same time be able to hit the enemy.

      Can you give some examples from the "real world"?
      1. +1
        4 September 2026 18: 57
        That one against Rozhdestvensky - what else...
        Although one can also recall Spee's squadron at the Falkland Islands.
        1. +1
          4 September 2026 19: 14
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          That one against Rozhdestvensky - what else...

          Was this a battle of cruisers?

          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          Although one can also recall Spee's squadron at the Falkland Islands.

          A classic escape attempt.
          By the way, it's practically your option: "Alaska" versus Pr.66. :)
          1. +1
            4 September 2026 19: 40
            The classic theory is that Goeben is fleeing from Catherine the Great. And the unfortunate Scharnhorst and Gneisenau at the Falklands were simply the prey of a stronger force. So Alaska versus Project 66 is more like Yorkshire Duck versus Charlie (as the British sailors called them). And Project 66 has a chance.
      2. MSN
        +1
        4 September 2026 19: 55
        Can you give some examples from the "real world"?

        Spee's squadron. Near the Falklands.
        1. 0
          4 September 2026 19: 59
          Quote: MSN
          Spee's squadron. Near the Falklands.

          This is not a fight between equal opponents - it is an attempt by the weak to escape from the strong.
          1. MSN
            +1
            4 September 2026 20: 11
            This is not a fight between equal opponents - it is an attempt by the weak to escape from the strong.

            Well, did the speed help? The Germans were a pretty good shot, as always.
            1. +1
              4 September 2026 20: 23
              Quote: MSN
              Well, did the speed help?

              Could the Germans really escape from a pair of Invincibles?
              1. MSN
                -1
                4 September 2026 20: 30
                Could the Germans really escape from a pair of Invincibles?

                No. But they could have, like Bayan and Asama, come closer and riddle the thin-skinned Englishmen. But they didn't let them. Speed. Sarcasm.
                1. 0
                  4 September 2026 21: 35
                  Quote: MSN
                  But they could have, like Bayan and Asama, come closer and riddle the thin-skinned Englishmen. But they didn't let them. Speed. Sarcasm.

                  So you don't know that Invincible and Inflexible turned away from the Germans and even broke the distance beyond the firing range?
                  Quote: MSN
                  What could have prevented you from understanding the issue before writing?

                  ...this comment?
                  1. MSN
                    -1
                    4 September 2026 22: 36
                    So you don't know that Invincible and Inflexible turned away from the Germans and even broke the distance beyond the firing range?

                    Speed. Be careful. That's what we're talking about. Maintaining the right distance. Speed.
                    1. 0
                      5 September 2026 07: 39
                      Quote: MSN
                      Speed. Be careful. That's what we're talking about.

                      Yep. Bayan outscored Asama and could thus determine a favorable engagement range. The British battlecruisers outscored the ShiG and determined the engagement range. The ShiG were unable to close with the British due to their inferior speed, so they relied on other tactics.
                      1. MSN
                        0
                        5 September 2026 19: 15
                        Yeah. Bayan outpaced Asama in speed and could thus determine his own advantageous fighting range.

                        In Andrey's alternate reality. Try doubting yourself. It will do you good.
                      2. 0
                        5 September 2026 19: 17
                        Quote: MSN
                        Try doubting yourself. It will do you good.

                        I'll try to ignore the stupid hate. Not that it's hurting me, but...
                      3. MSN
                        0
                        5 September 2026 19: 22
                        I'll try to ignore the stupid hate. Not that it's hurting me, but...

                        I was being harmful. Since you don't work with primary sources and don't know them, the easiest thing for me to do is ask you once again (soon there will be dozens) to back up your claims with documents. What will happen in response? Well, something about me... and nothing about the essence of the matter.
                      4. +3
                        5 September 2026 19: 42
                        Quote: MSN
                        Since you don't work with primary sources and don't know them, the easiest thing for me to do is ask you once again (soon there will be dozens) to back up your claims with documents. What will happen in response?

                        As usual, I'll respond with the source of my information. And, as usual, it won't satisfy you, because I use not only primary but also secondary sources, and you don't consider them sources. And, as usual, you'll throw another tantrum in the comments.
                        Do you think this is harmful to me?:))))
                      5. MSN
                        -2
                        5 September 2026 19: 47
                        In response, as usual, there will be a source from which I got the information.

                        Andrey, please read more carefully. You make a claim—provide a document. You've already cited a source that refuted you. What's in response? Your interpretations of the source. You don't like it, I don't like it. There won't be consensus. But the primary source—the DOCUMENT—resolves all questions. Doesn't that right?
  11. +2
    4 September 2026 18: 53
    And I'll throw in one more version.
    Judging by everything I've read, we were divided on the issue of large cruisers. And supposedly, Stalin was in favor of them. But only Kuznetsov wrote about that, and I don't really trust him on policy matters. Although, from those same memoirs, Stalin was attentive to naval needs. So, building even the outdated 30-bis destroyers and cruisers is, on the one hand, stupid. But! There are no ships, the factories need work, and personnel needs to be trained somewhere. And here Stalin is wise, and the sailors are not. It's not for nothing that he told the sailors: "You don't know what you want."
    So, let's get back to heavy cruisers.
    And here's the theory. To justify their uselessness, they made this comparison. Where building such cruisers would have been pointless after a battle simulation. And that's exactly what it was. The De Moines and Salem are masterpieces of artillery cruisers. Everything about them is fantastic. Automatic main guns and anti-aircraft guns with remote guidance, radars, power generation. And a large, incomprehensible ship against them. Talking about the number of ships is ridiculous. A sort of Yamato-like equivalent.
    There's a video of the Salem (if memory serves) showing automatic eight-inch guns firing. Yes, the Soviet cruiser would have been simply showered with shells. And even if they hadn't penetrated the armor, there would have been nothing left on top. But disabling the fire control system would have been enough. And then there would have been the fate of the Bismarck and Scharnhorst. And that's not even mentioning the aircraft carriers. wink
    So the characteristics of the Americans could have been taken as the maximum available on purpose.
    1. +2
      4 September 2026 19: 18
      Quote: MCmaximus
      and Scharnhorst

      Not quite a "kosher" example: the Scharnhorst was doing well until it stopped.
      Up to this point he had received only three shell.
      Reason for stopping: debatable...
      1. 0
        5 September 2026 03: 13
        So he was caught because of the radar. He was half blind.
        1. +1
          5 September 2026 12: 27
          Quote: MCmaximus
          So he was caught because of the radar. He was half blind.

          He was caught because he had three cruisers and a destroyer division on his tail.
          1. 0
            7 September 2026 17: 02
            They could hang on their tail for as long as they wanted. The Germans missed the battleship. On the other hand, with a speed greater than the British, it could escape.
            1. +1
              7 September 2026 18: 03
              Quote: MCmaximus
              The Germans missed the battleship. On the other hand.

              According to Willi Gödde's recollections, a combat alert was sounded at around 16:00 and the commander reported over the radio that more enemy ships had been detected on the starboard side by radar.
              So it's not a fact that we missed it.

              Quote: MCmaximus
              At a speed greater than the British, he could have escaped.

              He was leaving anyway, but something happened in the car...
    2. +1
      4 September 2026 19: 44
      You're almost spot on. The Project 66 cruiser is an anachronism, and Des Moines is just as anachronistic.
      And all these advertising stunts are extremely impressive, but completely ineffective in real life. This will be demonstrated in the analysis.
    3. MSN
      -2
      5 September 2026 19: 42
      The "Des Moines" and "Salem" are masterpieces of artillery cruisers. Everything about them is fantastic: automatic main guns and remote-controlled anti-aircraft guns, radars, and power systems.

      I completely agree. But such trivialities as automatic fire control systems, automatic ballistic computers, and computerized calculations are of no interest to the author. A duel with a fire control system would look something like this. Salem empties its magazines before the Pr-66 even has time to zero in. And what's left of the Pr-66 will be a hulk, like the Bismarck before the torpedoes. No artillery, no fire control system, no superstructure.
      1. 0
        6 September 2026 08: 07
        What you just wrote betrays the bookworm. None of your predictions will come true, as you're considering the pros without regard for reality, ignoring the cons (you simply don't know them). It's especially amusing how you're "emptying the cellars" without controlling the combat range!
        Yes, Andrey has a hard life!
        1. MSN
          0
          6 September 2026 11: 17
          None of your predictions will come true in reality, since you are considering the arguments "for" in isolation from reality,

          De Moines and Salem, with their fire control systems and radars, are reality. And their opponent, for whom no working drawings were drawn up, is your and Andrey's reality. If I'm a bookish person, then you're an alternative one?
      2. 0
        7 September 2026 18: 40
        I'll try the link to that video. YouTube is having problems now.
        https://disk.yandex.ru/i/fsh1LZCH6pbMJA
    4. +1
      7 September 2026 14: 21
      Quote: MCmaximus
      So, even building the aging 30-bis destroyers and cruisers is, on the one hand, stupid. But! There are no ships, the factories need work, and personnel needs to be trained somewhere.

      Why do we need seventy destroyers and three dozen cruise missiles to train personnel? Especially outdated designs, dating back to the late 30s?
      And most importantly, why continue building Project 68-bis cruise missiles according to the original design in the second half of the 50s? Even the Marine Shipbuilding Corporation, which typically disliked any changes to ships already under construction, proposed two projects to the Navy for converting both existing and existing Project 68-bis cruise missiles into air defense cruise missiles.
      By the way, the program for the KRL was cut back during the IVS, reducing the number of ships being laid down, if I remember correctly, by 5 units - because the MSP did not have enough slipways and personnel to build a civilian fleet.
      1. 0
        7 September 2026 15: 16
        One can argue about this endlessly.
        But how many officers are needed for 7 destroyers? Very few. And what if these destroyers don't exist? There won't be any at all.
      2. 0
        7 September 2026 17: 54
        Oddly enough, it's quite difficult to find out how many officers there were on these destroyers. I couldn't find the logbook somewhere. I found one place that said 15 officers, 35 petty officers. In any case, that's more or less accurate. 1050 officers of various ranks and lengths of service. Nothing special. But at least it's possible to pick something out of someone.
  12. MSN
    -2
    4 September 2026 20: 25
    The De Moines' main belt armor thickness was 152 mm, while the Project 66's was 155 mm. While this would seem to be equal, the Soviet cruiser's main belt armor plates were 155 mm thick across the entire belt, while the De Moines' main belt, according to most Russian-language sources, tapered toward the lower edge. To what extent - there is no clarity here.

    In general, the description of the vertical defense of the "De Moines" is striking in its diversity.

    But, I repeat, the diagram corresponds to the preliminary design, and in the final version it could well have been that the entire belt became 152/102 or 152/88 mm. Moreover, I, having no experience working with foreign drawings, could have misread the diagram.



    The Des Moines citadel was closed by traverses, but their thickness is unknown to me. If you look at the booking scheme (and I was not mistaken)?, then at the level of the armor belt the traverse had a thickness of 203 mm, and below - 152 mm.

    What could have prevented you from understanding the issue before writing this piece?
    1. +1
      4 September 2026 21: 27
      Quote: MSN
      What could have prevented us from figuring out the issue?

      Lack of consensus in the sources and the possibility that I am misreading the drawing
      1. MSN
        -4
        4 September 2026 22: 45
        Lack of consensus in the sources and the possibility that I am misreading the drawing


        Is searching for the original source taboo? We learned to read blueprints in 9th grade. And Google can help with new foreign terms and symbols. Combine the in-depth knowledge I gained in school with Google's suggestions? No?
        1. +2
          5 September 2026 07: 35
          Quote: MSN
          Is searching for the original source taboo? They taught me how to read blueprints in 9th grade.

          No problem, since everything is so simple, it won't be difficult for you to provide the original source. Which, in fact, are drawings, and clearly legible ones at that, so that
          Quote: MSN
          Google can help

          At the same time, please send me a textbook for 9th grade that teaches how to read American blueprints.
          1. MSN
            -5
            5 September 2026 19: 12
            No problem, since everything is so simple, it won't be difficult for you to provide the original source. Which, in fact, are drawings, and clearly legible ones at that, so that

            So that a certain Andrey from Chelyabinsk could earn money. Andrey. Try to do it yourself.
            1. +2
              5 September 2026 19: 16
              Quote: MSN
              Whatever

              To at least somehow confirm my words. But yes, this is not about you.
              1. MSN
                -5
                5 September 2026 19: 18
                To at least somehow confirm my words. But yes, this is not about you.

                And of course, you forgot to quote my words, which you confirm. Would you mind reminding me?
                1. +1
                  5 September 2026 19: 19
                  Quote: MSN
                  And of course you forgot to quote my words

                  So you'll be brushing them off, as usual. "Oh, they misunderstood me..."
                  1. MSN
                    -5
                    5 September 2026 19: 25
                    So you'll be brushing them off, as usual. "Oh, they misunderstood me..."

                    Of course. It's foolish to expect any other answer to a request to speak about the facts. Fairy tales don't require facts, do they?
                    1. +2
                      5 September 2026 19: 45
                      Quote: MSN
                      Of course. It would be foolish to expect any other answer to a request to speak about the facts.

                      The fact is, you know perfectly well what I'm talking about. You accused me of not finding the primary sources, of not knowing the 9th-grade textbooks... But now you need to immediately forget about that and accuse me of not wanting to speak about the facts.
                      As usual, the thief himself shouts "stop thief!" the loudest.
                      Okay, that's it. I've wasted enough of my time on you.
                      1. MSN
                        -5
                        5 September 2026 19: 49
                        I have already spent enough of my time on you.

                        New fairy tales await? Go for it.
                      2. +3
                        6 September 2026 15: 17
                        You remind me of someone, "Uncle," as if you weren't here before...
        2. 0
          7 September 2026 18: 00
          Well, if there's no copy of the factory drawing, there's nothing to say. But even here, you usually have to look at the supporting documentation. And there, everything can be changed beyond recognition. So, pictures from amateurs who piece it together bit by bit are a mediocre source. Now, if only we knew that this person drew this diagram with such-and-such knowledge... For example, I know of one diagram of the Su-27UB that was the most reliable at the time of its development. It was based on plasma sources. And even the OKB drawing isn't that reliable.
          So we have what we have. And at least that's good.
  13. +2
    5 September 2026 19: 00
    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
    Can you give some examples from the "real world"?

    There are very few examples, as classic cruiser-only artillery duels were virtually nonexistent in World War II. But then why are we evaluating the armor and artillery of these ships? If we want to compare them in such a situation, it must be as realistic as possible.
    In a purely artillery exchange, Soviet cruisers of the Project 66, 26, and 68 types would maintain a distance of more than 28 kilometers from the American ones, and their speed allowed for this, while their fire control systems gave them a chance to hit at that range. How realistic a purely artillery battle between these cruisers is is another matter. But this also applies to battleships, destroyers, and all other surface ships.
    1. +2
      5 September 2026 19: 10
      Quote: Kostadinov
      will maintain a distance of more than 28 kilometers

      Will they be able to hit it?
      1. +1
        6 September 2026 08: 21
        Maxim, really!
        You are anticipating, however.
        Take Jurens' formula, taking into account the ballistic factor, and "empty the magazines" of both ships from a distance of 149 cables. Then admire the expressions on the faces of the Salem sect witnesses.
        Enter the ship's rolling period as a correction factor for the actual rate of fire, and, most fun of all, estimate the conditional weight of a single hit at this range using the Monte Carlo method.
        In short, to understand the concept of these eight-inch machine guns, you need to understand who they were intended to be used against and at what ranges. This will determine the ship's tactics. When they were being developed for the Project 66 cruiser, there was no such idea.
        1. +2
          6 September 2026 12: 00
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          In short, to understand the concept of these eight-inch machine guns, you need to understand who they were intended to operate against and at what distances.

          As if everyone (read: Americans) around knew that the "Des Moines" were a belated echo of the night hand-to-hand fighting at Guadalcanal... :)
          1. MSN
            0
            6 September 2026 12: 21
            As if everyone (read: Americans) around knew that the "Des Moines" were a belated echo of the night hand-to-hand fighting at Guadalcanal... :)

            What kind of "belated echo" is this? They were designed in '44, laid down while the war was still going on. Right on the heels of it. Then again, who could guarantee that a "Guadalcanal" wouldn't happen again in the '50s or '60s?
            1. +2
              6 September 2026 12: 41
              Quote: MSN
              They laid it down while the war was still going on.

              As if in May '45 (the "Des Moines" bookmark) anyone doubted how it would all end.

              Quote: MSN
              Again, who could guarantee that Guadalcanal would not happen again in the 50-60s?

              Considering that American aviation was already in full swing at night?
              1. MSN
                -1
                6 September 2026 12: 52
                Considering that American aviation was already in full swing at night?

                Before the advent of SAR, it wasn't very reliable. And this was the mid-60s. Again, the Gulf of Tonkin. Isn't it a mini-Guadalcanal?
                1. +1
                  6 September 2026 13: 04
                  Quote: MSN
                  Again - the Tonkin Gulf.

                  What moment exactly are you talking about?
                  1. MSN
                    -1
                    6 September 2026 13: 08
                    What moment exactly are you talking about?

                    Destroyers and torpedo boats. A cruiser could have been used instead of a destroyer. Hypothetically.
  14. 0
    5 September 2026 19: 19
    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
    Quote: Kostadinov
    will maintain a distance of more than 28 kilometers

    Will they be able to hit it?

    They say there was a chance with the post-war fire control system and its radar. It could provide target designation and fire adjustments at 30 kilometers or more, achieving a 1% hit rate at that range. Furthermore, at such distances, the primary target is the enemy's horizontal projection, which is quite large.
    But if the Russians had any chance, the Americans had no chance at all - they couldn't make it more than 28 kilometers.
    1. +1
      5 September 2026 19: 25
      Quote: Kostadinov
      It could provide target designation and adjust fire at a range of 30 kilometers or more and achieve a 1% hit rate at that range.

      What is the source of the data?
      1. 0
        6 September 2026 08: 27
        From the firing tables.
        Here, the ballistic factor dispersion formulas come into play. Given the sophisticated fire control system, the hit probability at 30 km for the Project 66 exceeds 2%. Take a look at Jurens' formula, but take the ballistic factor to the power of 0,5—220 mm is not 380 mm.
    2. 0
      7 September 2026 18: 46
      But that's if the target's course and speed don't change. And the accuracy at such ranges isn't mind-blowing. Our naval guns typically overstated their ballistic characteristics at the expense of other characteristics: accuracy and barrel durability. And the amount of ammunition, too. Durability, after all, is limited. Meanwhile, American artillery and industry were very advanced. And their industry was clearly superior to the Soviet Union's.
  15. +1
    5 September 2026 21: 51
    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
    Quote: Kostadinov
    It could provide target designation and adjust fire at a range of 30 kilometers or more and achieve a 1% hit rate at that range.

    What is the source of the data?

    Project 26 cruisers repeatedly fired at land targets at ranges of 140 to 200 cable lengths. For example, on September 19, 1941, Voroshilov opened fire on the village of Alekseyevka at 200 cable lengths and hit the target after the second salvo. (Naval Collection 2003. Kirov-class cruisers)
    Practical firing of Project 68K cruisers took place on October 28, 1958: controlling fire solely according to radar data, at night and at a speed of over 28 knots, three hits were achieved in three minutes from a distance that changed during the firing from 131 kbt to 117 kbt.
    https://navy-chf.livejournal.com/3734154.html
    1. +1
      6 September 2026 12: 07
      Quote: Kostadinov
      For example, on September 19, 1941, Voroshilov opened fire on the village of Alekseyevka at a range of 200 cables and after the second salvo hit the target. (Naval collection 2003. Kirov-class cruisers)

      Shooting at a stationary coastal target is very different from shooting at a ship.

      Quote: Kostadinov
      Practical firing of Project 68K cruisers took place on October 28, 1958

      One question: where did Shirokorad get this data...
      1. +2
        6 September 2026 17: 45
        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
        One question: where did Shirokorad get this data...

        Excuse me, but what does he have to do with this? Zablotsky wrote about this shooting.
        1. +1
          6 September 2026 18: 49
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Excuse me, but what does he have to do with this? Zablotsky wrote about this shooting.

          The idea is formulated rather convolutedly on LiveJournal... :)
          1. +1
            6 September 2026 19: 03
            Quote: Macsen_Wledig
            From LJ

            Oh! Well, yeah, I didn't bother with LJ, I just took that episode from Zablotsky myself :))))
            P.S. I got into LJ - it's my article. But honestly, I didn't think I could use the phrase
            The effective firing range of the domestic B-38, calculated using the "A.B. Shirokorad method," is 126 kbt. This is confirmed by a practical firing test of Project 68K cruisers on October 28, 1958: Controlling fire solely by radar data, at night and at a speed exceeding 28 knots, three hits were achieved in three minutes at a range that varied from 131 kbt to 117 kbt during the firing.

            Take it as if the shooting was taken from Shirokorad. Oh well, anything can happen.
    2. 0
      7 September 2026 19: 47
      Here's another question: what was meant by the word "target"? How big was it? And what was considered the criteria for a hit? Where does a shell have to land for it to be considered a hit on land? A ship is a pretty small thing. You can't fire many shells at it. Anything that misses, misses. 200x20 meters. Well, another 20-30 meters high. And that's it. And it tends to move.
      Given the low explosive content of shells, the ironclad armor, and the ships' armor, anything short of a direct hit is a miss. Shrapnel is a fluke. There's coverage, but no hits. Coverage is great, but then there's just the hit probability. And that could be, as luck would have it, 50%, but still miss a single hit. Most likely, it was assumed that if a certain number of shells landed near the target with a certain dispersion (for example, 10% of those that landed with the calculated dispersion), then everything was fine.
      And where did the Voroshilov hit at 200 cables (that's the maximum range), and who estimated that? It's unclear. Covering a village is no big deal. But where did they hit? But even then: which village? Three houses, twenty, how many? Or the 1958 shooting. Three hits. And how many shells? From 3 to 12 x 3 x 4 = 144, if the rate of fire is 4 rounds per minute. The percentage is from 100 to 2. But 2% is not bad.
      I'm a couch potato here. But as a handyman with all sorts of scribbling, I know you can always whip up a good report for your superiors. And our Armed Forces have always been famous for that.
      For some reason, the Italians' upgraded guns hit far worse, if they hit anything at all, than the old British guns from the Imperialist War. The Americans and British were quite confident in hitting the standing French.
      And back then, we were also chasing range, speed, etc. Typical problems of those lagging behind, hoping to compensate for quantity with individual unique characteristics.
      What kind of artillery experience is this? An American battleship fired more shells in a single operation against a lousy Japanese island than our battleship did in the entire war. And this happened several times, with barrels being replaced. That's experience.
      1. +3
        7 September 2026 20: 49
        Quote: MCmaximus
        What kind of artillery experience is this? An American battleship fired more shells in a single operation against a lousy Japanese island than our battleship did in the entire war. And this happened several times, with barrels being replaced. That's experience.

        Yes... The numbers there are certainly hellish.
      2. +1
        8 September 2026 11: 26
        It's all about the quality of the charges.
        The Italian An 381 mm/50 Model 1934 demonstrated outstanding accuracy at 100-150 kHz at the range, but only when using specially prepared ammunition. However, barrel durability was beyond reproach.
        The Italians primarily fired semi-armor-piercing shells (granata) weighing 824 kg at five-sixths of a full charge (220 kg). While survivability was high, the mass-produced shells resulted in wide dispersion over range.
        1. 0
          8 September 2026 11: 29
          Miracles don't happen. Something has to give way.
  16. +4
    5 September 2026 23: 31
    A small caveat: I came across information that the Americans could indicate category “B” armor with a thickness of 76 mm or less as STS. But “De Moine” does not fit this assumption either, since it indicates STS for a thickness of 89 mm (3,5 dm).


    STS (Special Treatment Steel) and Class B armor were the same steel. Chemically, it was identical to Class A armor, but its processing was homogeneous, unlike the heterogeneous Class A armor.

    In sheet thicknesses up to 102 mm (10 cm), the steel was classified as STS. In thicknesses of 102 mm and above, it was known as "Class "B" armor." The only technological difference was that STS was entirely rolled. "Class "B" armor" was entirely forged before 1937 because:

    https://www.eugeneleeslover.com/ARMOR-CHAPTER-XII-A.php

    "Class B armor with a thickness of less than 10 cm is rolled rather than forged. However, for greater thicknesses, it is forged, as it is believed that rolling thick sheets produces a less uniform metal structure than forging, which, of course, reduces ballistic resistance. For thicknesses over 10 cm, if the sheets are large, forging must be used, as there are no rolling mills in the United States capable of processing the required ingots." 1937 year

    Steel went into production in 1910. Initially, in addition to nickel and chromium, vanadium was used as an alloying additive. "The use of vanadium was discontinued around 1914. Currently, nickel-chromium steel is used, which has approximately the same chemical composition as Class A armor, that is, with a carbon content of about 0,30%, nickel of about 3,85%, and chromium of about 1,85%." November 1937, XNUMX
    1. +1
      7 September 2026 07: 39
      Quote: AlexanderA
      STS (Special treatment steel) and "Class "B" armor" were the same steel.

      Quote: AlexanderA
      When rolling thick sheets, the metal structure is less uniform than when forging, which, of course, reduces ballistic resistance.

      The same armor?
      1. 0
        7 September 2026 11: 55
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The same armor?

        The same steel as Class B armor, only rolled. Class B armor was forged using a hydraulic press. Ultimately, the rolled STS sheet thickness was increased to 127 mm.
        1. 0
          7 September 2026 12: 08
          Quote: AlexanderA
          The same steel as class B armor, only rolled.

          And just less resistant to enemy shells. Otherwise, it's the same thing.
          1. +1
            7 September 2026 12: 56
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            And only less resistant to the effects of enemy shells.

            Thinner armor is, of course, less durable. It's a commonplace that Americans believed that only forging could eliminate imperfections in finished products over 4 inches thick by the 1930s, and over 5 inches later.

            And so, the shell resistance of rolled and forged armor of the same thickness was practically identical, in contrast to cast armor, which was at least 10% inferior in shell resistance.

            What's funny is that by the 1940s, the Americans hadn't developed truly thick cemented armor (over 16 inches). That's why the turret front plates and conning tower plates on the Iowa-class tanks were made of homogeneous Class B armor. And the thickest main battery barbette plates, which had a complex shape of radial segments with variable profile thickness, were cast, although, as everyone says, they were made of heterogeneous Class A armor. At least, I saw a YouTube video discussing this issue and showing traces of a casting mold on the barbette armor.
            1. +1
              7 September 2026 13: 25
              Quote: AlexanderA
              And so, the shell resistance of rolled and forged armor of the same thickness was practically identical.

              Well, the source writes that - no.
              Class B armor, when less than 4 inches thick, is rolled in a mill instead of being forged, but above that thickness it is forged, as rolling thick plates is believed to work the plate less uniformly than forging, a condition which would, of of course, tend to reduce ballistic resistance.

              I'm not very good at English, but how else can I translate it?
              tend to reduce ballistic resistance.
              1. +1
                7 September 2026 14: 20
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Well, the source writes that - no.

                Only for large (more than 102-127 mm) thicknesses of the final product, in the production of which rolling of steel, according to American experts of that time, was worse at eliminating the inhomogeneities of the casting than forging on a hydraulic press.

                With the same thicknesses, it is considered that the protective properties of STS and class B armor were completely identical.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essex-class_aircraft_carrier

                "Yet, these ships were also designed to limit weight and the complexity of construction, for instance including extensive use of flat and straight metal pieces,[10] and of Special Treatment Steel (STS), a nickel-chrome steel alloy that provided the same protective qualities as Class B armor plate, but which was fully structural rather than deadweight.[11]"

                "However, these ships were also designed to limit weight and structural complexity, such as using flat and straight metal parts[10] and special treatment steel (STS), a nickel-chromium alloy that provided the same protective properties as Class B armor plate but was entirely load-bearing rather than dead weight.[11]

                Which, in general, follows from the identical mechanical properties of these steels.

                Incidentally, the order for STS and class B armor was handled by different bureaus of the US Navy Department.

                STS was commissioned by the Bureau of Construction and Repair, which was reorganized into the Bureau of Ships in 1940.

                Class B armor was ordered by the Bureau of Ordnance.

                So the division was not based on the protective properties of the steels themselves, but rather bureaucratic.

                PS Forging on a hydraulic press, as a technological process, was naturally more expensive than rolling.
  17. +1
    6 September 2026 13: 51
    Shooting at a stationary coastal target is very different from shooting at a ship.

    Without a doubt. There were no German cruisers in the Black Sea at the time, and there was nothing to fire on. But this episode shows that with target designation, using a pre-war fire control system, it's possible to hit a target at 200 cable lengths! Many times, they fired at 140-150 cable lengths. But there are pre-war American battleship exercises where they fired at a long-range naval training target (a towed shield) in 1939-40. The Maryland had a 5,4% hit rate at 29865 yards, and the West Virginia had a 3,7% hit rate at 32107 yards. There are formulas for roughly estimating hit percentages depending on range. There are also formulas for more precise estimates. Post-war fire control systems have improved. So 1% hit rate at 90% of maximum range is a very conservative estimate for the 50s.
    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
    One question: where did Shirokorad get this data?

    Ask Shirokorad
    1. +1
      6 September 2026 14: 03
      Quote: Kostadinov
      But this episode shows that with target designation and a pre-war fire control system, it's possible to hit a target at 200 kbps! Many times, we've fired at 140-150 kbps.

      Read about how they fire at a shore target. It's mostly the navigator who does the work, not the gunner. Simply put, the navigator will give the course angle and range, the gunner will aim the guns and fire, and then they'll wait to hear what the corps commander says...

      Quote: Kostadinov
      Ask Shirokorad

      That was a rhetorical question... :)
  18. +2
    6 September 2026 15: 00
    Hmm. I think there's some confusion in the text between Type B and STS armor. They're essentially the same thing—homogeneous armor steel—just classified differently:

    Armor to resist the glancing blow is now called “Class B Armor” in the US Navy, but it is also referred to as deck armor, horizontal armor, and special-treatment steel.


    https://www.eugeneleeslover.com/ARMOR-CHAPTER-XII-A.php
    1. 0
      6 September 2026 23: 12
      There was only one steel. Plates less than 4 inches (102 mm) thick were classified as STS. STS plates were rolled. Plates 4 inches thick and above were classified as "Class B Armor," and armor components were forged on hydraulic presses. There was no way to roll slabs of such thickness to produce armor plates 4 inches thick or more. At least as of 1937.
    2. +2
      7 September 2026 07: 38
      Quote: Destroyermen
      It's like they're the same thing - homogeneous armor steel - just with different classifications:

      Alex, welcome!
      What about
      Class B armor, when less than 4 inches thick, is rolled in a mill instead of being forged, but above that thickness it is forged, as rolling thick plates is believed to work the plate less uniformly than forging, a condition which would, of of course, tend to reduce ballistic resistance.

      which my translator translated as
      Class B armor with a thickness of less than 10 cm is rolled on a rolling mill rather than forged, but with a thickness of more than 10 cm it is forged, since it is believed that when rolling, thick sheets are deformed less uniformly than when forged, which, of course, reduces ballistic resistance.

      So the ingredients are the same, but the staying power isn't the same. Or am I mistaken about something?
  19. -2
    7 September 2026 17: 28
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: squid
    The entire Soviet "large fleet", especially the post-war one, would have been simply bombed by the Americans with carrier-based aircraft.

    Quote: squid
    including the famous Aircraft Carrier Witnesses sect

    L-logic....


    That's it. Your aircraft carriers might have looked good in the 50s and 70s. Now they're the same floating targets as Stalin's post-war "heavy cruisers." A weapon of colonial warfare against an underdeveloped enemy.