Military Review

Armored vehicles of Ukraine: results, potential, prospects ...

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The armored industry is one of the main sectors of the Ukrainian military-industrial complex. The glorious traditions of the creators of the legendary Soviet tanks T-34, as well as the most massive post-war T-54 and revolutionary T-64 in the world, continue to live in the transforming conditions of modern political realities. However, this material is devoted solely to the review and analysis of technological achievements over the past decade, and I will try to distance myself from politics whenever possible.


History

Historically, Kharkov along with Leningrad became the cradle of domestic tank building. Kharkov plant them. Malysheva has had a history since the 1895 year, as a locomotive building. As is known, in the early years of the USSR, it did not have its own tank industry. Therefore, Kharkov Comintern Locomotive Plant, was entrusted with the organization of work on tank construction, and in the future and the development of designs of domestic tanks. This was due to the production of tracked tractors “Kommunar”, which were a good basis for the development of the tank building factory.

The official document determining the start of production of tanks at the plant is the Resolution of permanent mobilization from 1 December 1927 of the year when the General Directorate of the Metal Industry (letter 1159 / 128 of 7 in January 1928 in January) instructed “... to urgently work on the issue about the production of tanks and tractors at KhPZ ... ”

In the 1927 year, when the development of the tank, which had the designation 1-12-32, begins, later it was designated the T-12, the development of which was completed by the end of 1929. In the 1931, the recycled tank, called the T-24, was launched into small-scale production.

Thus, along with the Leningrad plant "Bolshevik", another center of tank production of the USSR appeared.
In the 30s, the designers of the Kharkov plant carried out work on wheeled-tracked tanks of BT type, which were produced in large quantities. Subsequently, Kharkov tank builders created such tanks as the heavy multi-turreted T-35, the legendary T-34, the production of which began in other large enterprises of the country. At the beginning of the Great Patriotic Kharkov, the design bureau was evacuated to Nizhny Tagil, where a modernized T-34-85 and absolutely new T-44 and T-54 tanks were created. After returning to Kharkiv, the converted KB began work on innovative solutions in tank building, which ultimately resulted in the creation of the first domestic tank of the new generation - T-64. And do not forget that the Kharkov design bureau was entrusted by the leadership with the creation of a promising tank, which made the same revolution in world tank building as the legendary T-34. Subsequently, on the basis of the developments on this tank, other domestic tanks were created - T-72, developed by UKBTM, T-80 developed by KB "Spetsmash". However, this diversity in general, similar in its military-technical level of tanks that had little compatibility with each other, laid a heavy burden on the economy of the Soviet Union. Events that produced after the adoption of the T-64 and eventually resulted in the mass production of three main battle tanks in the USSR (although the word “Main” has lost its meaning in this context) goes beyond the scope of this material and is described in more detail in the material History of Russian Tank Building in the postwar period.

At sunset of the USSR, work was carried out on a promising new generation tank in Kharkov, which was to replace the T-64B, T-80U / T-80UD, and T-72B, then produced in production. The first samples of the promising tank “object 477” (Hammer) were manufactured at the end of 80, the tank continued to be worked out in 90 (not without cooperation with Russia), but due to the changed political situation, financial difficulties and problems that arose with interstate production cooperation, work on the promising tank took an increasingly protracted nature. Unfortunately, on this page of the domestic tank building virtually nothing is known.

Half-life


After the collapse of the USSR, the Ukrainian defense industry was not only in a state of crisis, but on the verge of survival. The new stupefied elite was no longer interested in the development of defense, the main interest of the government of both “independent” Ukraine and “democratic” Russia in those years was how to steal a bold piece of national wealth acquired in 70 years. The production of tanks at the Kirov plant in Leningrad ceased, the development of armored vehicles in the Leningrad KB "Spetsmash" was reduced to a minimum, Omsk "Transmash" was also in a critical situation, Uralvagonzavod and the Kharkovsky Plant named after them also found themselves on the verge of survival. Malysheva, as well as design offices at these plants.

However, an unexpected chance saved both Kharkiv and later Russian (this will be explained later) by a foreign customer presented tank builders. In 1994 - 1995, the T-XNUMHSUD tank was sent for testing to Pakistan, where it received high marks from the local military. Wanting to move the balance of power in their permanent confrontation with India, Pakistan in 80 signed a contract with Ukraine for the supply of X-NUMX T-1996UD tanks.

This contract largely saved the domestic tank builders, forgotten by their own government, which, however, realizing the possible benefits from the sale of military equipment to the foreign market, paid them attention, which, by no means, meant any concern for the country's defense.

However, at that time there was no closed cycle for the production of armored vehicles in Ukraine, the wounded leadership of the GABTU of the Russian Federation refused to assist (albeit later as a result of certain intergovernmental agreements and personnel changes, some assistance was rendered).

Therefore, it was decided to establish a closed-cycle production of armored vehicles, this primarily included:
production of tank guns and ammunition for them (produced and developed in Russia - NIMI, NIITM, plant number XXUMX, KBP, etc.)
production of fire control systems - sighting systems (Zverev Plant)
production of armored vehicles protection means dynamic protection complexes (DZ), active protection complexes (KAZ), optic-electronic countermeasure complexes (CEP), etc., were developed in Russia (Steel Research Institute, KBP, NIITM, etc.).

To create a closed production cycle, Ukrainian tank builders were forced to create the entire chain of products, which will be discussed in more detail below:

Production of tank guns

In the shortest possible time Ukraine mastered the production of the necessary modern artillery systems for equipping tanks. Production was able to expand in a short time, because in Ukraine there was a company producing weighted pipes for oil and gas production - the plant. Frunze (Sumy). The plant was, in fact, at 95 percent equipped with the necessary equipment for the production of cannon barrels. It was also necessary to purchase some additional equipment for specific operations. The production of guns was launched in March 1998.

Thus, the production of guns, previously produced only in Russia (Perm), was established, guns are assembled at the Kharkov plant, barrels come from Sumy. The Ukrainian KBA3 cannon is a close equivalent of the Soviet 2А46М-1 cannon. gun variants were also developed for equipping retrofit tanks T-55 (КБА3К) and Т-72 (КБМ1М) as well as a version of the gun of caliber 120 mm (КБМ2). The design of the gun KBM2 meets the requirements of NATO standards and is operated with all types of ammunition caliber 120 mm NATO standard.

Another interesting development of the KMDB is bicalyber (the design of the barrel and breech elements allows for quick installation of barrels of various calibers 120 and 140 mm). Taking into account the developed AZ, located in the niche of the turret, this will allow creating a tank with a large modernization potential. Also successfully passed military tests 30-mm automatic guns ZTM1 and ZTM2 (similar in basic characteristics to the Russian 2А72 and 2А42).



Fire control systems

For tanks, they are mass-produced at Ukrainian enterprises, where production of advanced sighting systems 1А43-U Ros has been established with a 1ГХNNXX PROMIN sight of the advanced sighting and observation complex of Commander PNK-46 AGAT-SM with a built-in range unit and a headset using a dial-up dialer with a dialing-in-to-profile device. (UBBU), produced by NPP Fotopribor, PNK-5 increases the commander’s firing efficiency by 5-20% and reduces the time spent preparing the shot by half. To replace the sighting system "Buran" there is a thermal sighting system "Buran-Katrin" with imported FPU. Kiev research institute "Kvant" developed a fire control system using optical-television sights OTP-50, which is installed on the combat modules "Squall", "Ingul" and others. The production of a full range of components required for a closed-cycle production of armored vehicles, such as stabilizers (20E2M), metering systems for thermal bending of the gun barrel (SUIT-42), navigation equipment (LIO-N), wind sensors (TWO-BS), and much more . Components are also produced for the T-1, T-54, T-55, T-62 tanks for upgrading the Volo, Bastion, Recruit, etc., which are manufactured at the Feodosia Optical Plant.

Production of high-power tank shots

For the period of the collapse of the USSR, obsolete shots for tank guns - BOPS BM32 with a uranium core and BM44 with a tungsten alloy core turned out to be in service with Ukraine and Russia, both shots had a “classic” domestic reference system (stabilization in the barrel of the aluminum sectors and caliber empowerment with bearings , along with the advantages of the low weight of the host device and, accordingly, a very high initial speed at a distance of more than two kilometers, they turn into disadvantages - large sweat Speed ​​loss due to air resistance, accuracy decreases over long distances. Shells are equipped with a composite core.

At the same time, the Russian developers (NIMI) could offer a more advanced “Lead” projectile of high elongation with a new reference scheme, which is up to 1,4 times as effective as the full-time BNG “Mango”, which was adopted in 1991 year. The development of advanced shots with a core of super-dense single-component and composite materials and improved ballistic characteristics also continued.

Ukrainian enterprises have also developed a modern BM44У1 sub-caliber projectile with increased elongation and a new master. In the 2006 year, in accordance with the state armaments program, it is planned to take a new shot with a piercing projectile.

Production of guided missiles ("Combat" and "Stugna", etc.).

Tank guided missiles of 100, 120 and 125 mm caliber were developed by specialists of the Luch Kiev design bureau. The control system is semi-automatic (similar to the Russian KUV “Reflex” and “Svir”), providing tele-orientation in the beam of a quantum generator with a wavelength of 1,06 μm, accompanied by a gunner from the sight control panel. Provided immunity from active and passive interference. Due to the modularity of construction on the basis of this design, a whole series of guided missiles were developed for armament of both tanks and infantry fighting vehicles (T-55 / Tip-69, T-72, T-80UD, "Yatagan" and MT-12 cannons, and BMP-3), as well as ATGM.



The main purpose of "Combat" - defeat targets that are beyond the reach of a conventional smoothbore 125-millimeter cannon, as well as helicopters. The projectile has a tandem warhead. The target firing range is 5 kilometers, this distance Combat travels in 16 seconds, the total weight of the projectile 30 kilogram. According to observers, the party of such shots could be delivered to Pakistan.

Naturally, the Kombat guided missile (as well as its Russian counterparts), as it were, was not presented by its press, it cannot be considered weapons of the future. First, armor penetration even in 900-1000 mm does not give the required probability when defeating promising modernized tanks of leading tank-building countries (М1А2, Leclerc, Leopard-2А6, T-90), secondly, missiles do not provide for overcoming active protection systems (KAZ).

Blow from above.

The armor penetration of a modern tandem warhead (warhead) of an advanced 9М119М1 rocket according to the developers is 900 mm for armor protection, not equipped with a DZ. It is noted that this is not the ultimate possibility of armor penetration within the caliber of 125 mm, however, the creation of warheads with armor penetration indicators in 10-12 calibers is a difficult task. In addition, the development of active defense complexes (KAZ) abroad, which can successfully hit flying guided missiles, is acquiring a large scale. A possible way out is to develop ammunition attacking the tank from above or on the fly with the help of a “shock core” (without entering the KAZ from the height to 20 m without descending the target). Such developments have been proposed by specialists of the Kiev Luch Design Bureau. The use of such a development is also very economically justified (as compared with complexes with autonomous self-homing), since the creation of a new rocket is based on the already developed and mass-produced elements and does not require changes to the fire control system.



Options for the execution of such ammunition is the placement of two combat units with "attack cores" located at an angle 180 deg. one is relative to another. During the flight, a tank is defeated by at least one combat unit.
The second option is the execution of a warhead suspended on an axis of rotation parallel to the longitudinal axis of the projectile with minimal friction in the supports and ensuring two degrees of freedom (installing the warhead on the axis of rotation on the bearings allows it to remain almost stationary when the projectile rotates).
Using this design provides the following benefits:
eliminate the possibility of a projectile collision with natural and artificial obstacles between the gunner and the target, eliminates the effects of dust and smoke of the battlefield;
to neutralize the actions of the active protection systems of the tank;
will give the opportunity to hit tanks that have head-on booking more than 1000 mm homogeneous steel armor with dynamic and multi-layer protection due to the defeat of the tank from above, where booking is much less;
reduce the effects of countermeasures by eliminating the target beam being irradiated by the beam;
will give the opportunity to hit modern tanks using non-pandem combat units;
neutralize the harmful effect of the projectile rotation around the longitudinal axis on armor penetration of the cumulative warhead by placing it almost at an angle 90 ° to the longitudinal axis of the projectile (or increase the probability of hitting the target when using several warheads).

Complexes of dynamic protection (DZ)

Cumulative protection "Knife" (HASKKV)

The development of the Knife complex began in 97-98 after the appearance of problems with deliveries of T-80UD tanks to Pakistan with UD 4-22 developed by the Scientific and Research Institute of Steel. SRI Steel demanded an exorbitant price for the possibility of using the technology (up to 10% of the contract value). In 2003, the "Knife" was adopted.

The advantages of the "Knife" experts attribute the possibility of affective impact on the armor-piercing sabot projectiles, as well as ammunition of the "shock core" type. In addition, in contrast to the “Contact-5” feature of the complex is that when triggered, the transfer of detonation to containers not involved in the impact on the attacking ammunition is excluded.

A great interest was shown to the UDZs abroad, so in 2003, the 3 of the T-80UD tank (T-84) with the Knife complex was purchased by the USA. Representatives of the United Arab Emirates showed interest in the complex (installation at Leclerc). The potential of the complex was also studied by the representatives of France and China.

A modification of the "Knife" has now been developed for installation on light combat vehicles. The “knife” provides protection not only against anti-tank grenades and light anti-tank guided missiles, but also against AP caliber shells of 30 mm (including feathered subcaliber ones).



Cumulative protection "Knife" was developed by SKTB IPP NANU together with GP BTsKT "MIKROTEK", SIC "Material processing by explosion" of the IES them. Paton NASU and KMDB them. Morozov.

The "knife" provides protection for tanks or other combat vehicles from armor-piercing-sifting projectiles, cumulative weapons and impact-cumulative ammunition of the "shock core" type. The main difference between the “Knife” and similar existing types of dynamic protection is the impact on the attacking weapons by a cumulative jet, unlike throwing plates in the direction of the attacking ammunition, which in certain variants is the principle of the impact of analogs. The use of a flat cumulative jet to defeat an attacking munition and deflect it from the original trajectory, giving an angle of attack at which the depth of penetration into the protected object decreases, has several advantages - quick response, high efficiency, reliability, possibility of execution that will provide equal protection when meeting under right angle, etc.

It should be noted that various analysts, for example, Rastopshin, in his article “realism is necessary in assessing the potential of the Ukrainian military industrial complex and the official Kiev’s policy”, published in the military industrial complex No. 4 (21) 4 - February 10 of the year, not only give completely incorrect assessments of the overall situation, but they carry frank misinformation on technical issues. For example, what is the scheme given in the above article called “BPS interaction with the Ukrainian Knife protection module”, where he claims that the Knife modules are put out of action during firing with small-caliber artillery, after which the BPS will hit tanks without difficulty. The conclusion was made on the basis of Rastopshin's fantasies about the presence of plate-contacts in the modules “knife”, which closes an electrical circuit with its case, after which a flat shaped shaped charge is undermined, which has nothing to do with reality - “The Knife” works instantly without special means initiation, does not require preparation for use and maintenance. Authors like Rastopshin need to study what they are writing about before they write, and if they don’t have information to fantasize, just keep silent.

Armored vehicles of Ukraine: results, potential, prospects ...

Installing the complex using the Knife modules increases the level of protection of the tank against cumulative and kinetic projectiles 2-3 times.


KNOWL modules are distinguished by: high reliability (100% response and protection against all types of anti-tank weapons), safety when firing small arms, no detonation from debris and incendiary mixtures, interchangeability with elements of the built-in DZ 4X20 or 4X22 (manufactured by the Russian Federation) in correlation 1: 2, increased 1,8-2,7 times (relative to 4С22) efficiency, reduced magnitude of prohibitive effect on armor, ease of installation, low cost. In 2003, the "Knife" passed state tests and was adopted by the Ukrainian army. Production of UDZ (devices of dynamic protection) "Knife" is already established at several Kiev enterprises. For details, see - Cumulative protection "Knife"

Modular armor - new developments in bonded protection designs



The subsequent increase in the protection of tanks, according to experts, is connected with the use of a modular design of armor protection of the hull and turret of the tank. The modular design of the reservation allows, without changing the thickness and weight of the armor, to increase the counterhard resistance, provides the possibility of improving the armor during the life cycle of the tank and the possibility of replacing the old modules with new ones made of armor created with the latest technological advances. Protection modules can be quickly replaced in case of damage. Moreover, these works can be performed in the field. In addition, it is possible to manufacture protective modules in conditions of mass production, which significantly reduces their cost.

Complexes of active protection (KAZ)

The complex of active protection (KAZ) "Barrier", designed to protect objects from anti-tank weapons with flat and dive trajectories, regardless of the guidance systems used in them and the type of warhead.



For the first time, the new active protection complex of the Zaslon tank, along with other innovations of the Ukrainian military-industrial complex, was demonstrated at the IDEX-2003 exhibition in Abu Dhabi. The complex is manufactured and offered for export by Ukrinmash (a subsidiary of the state-owned company Ukrspetsexport), in 2006, the complex must pass state tests, and according to their results adopted by the Ukrainian army (the developers do not hide the fact that the adoption of active protection by the Ukrainian tanks, first of all, it has a commercial background, it is unlikely that someone from foreign customers will buy such a high-tech complex, which is not in service even in their homeland).

The Zaslon complex was created in order to eliminate the shortcomings of the existing Drozd and Arena tank active defense systems. Unlike the Arena or Thrush, the danger zone for infantry is much smaller, the sensors are moved outside the tank, as a result, the speed of the intercepted targets is increased to 1.200 m / s (700 m / s from the Arena), protection from ammunition attacking from above and possibly in perspective and BOPS.
Impact on attacking ammunition differs from Drozd and Arena, cumulative munitions under the influence of a blast wave and high-speed fragments detonate or change the trajectory, attacking munitions with a solid metal body under the influence of ammunition change their trajectory and either go outside the protected object, or with the main booking at an unfavorable angle.

State tests of the complex are planned for October 2006, after which, the complex can be installed on the Bulat and Oplot tanks. Work is also underway on the complex, which provides full protection against kinetic ammunition (BOPS).

It should also be pointed out that in the Russian press - the magazine MIC (MIC No. 4 (21) 2004 of the Year), which is the mouthpiece of such analysts as M. Rastopshin wrote about this complex, that's what the Ukrainian version of active defense (AZ) Zaslon "demonstrates Ukraine's 30-year lag in this area. Probably Rastopshin believes that all KAZ are the same, and demonstrates its complete ignorance of the KAZ "Barrier". Compared with the "Arena" it has several advantages, in fact it is completely different complexes. Firstly, KAZ Zaslon has an autonomous modular structure and can be installed on any tanks, light and heavy armored vehicles and stationary objects without significant additions to the design, and secondly, compared to the Arena, the Zaslon has a much larger speed range of hit PTS - 1200 m / s. against 700 m / s. Arena and performance (0.001, 0.005 vs. 0.07 with.).

Optical-electronic countermeasures (COEP)

For the first time in the world tank construction, the Shtora-80-KOEP TShU-90-1 “Shtora-7”, created at the end of 1-s, installed the “Shtora” complex, which warns the crew about laser irradiation of a tank in the spectral range, on serial domestic tanks T-80UK and T-0.7. 2.5-XNUMX micron range and provides active jamming anti-tank complexes with a semi-automatic guidance system by setting multi-spectral aerosol curtains that quench the laser radiation.

However, now this complex can not meet the tasks, because The spectral range of wavelengths currently used in rangefinders is 0.63-10,6 μm (erbium lasers with a neodymium with a Romanov shift, lasers on carbon dioxide). A new generation of the complex is being developed. A possible direction could also be the development of complexes involving an active noise generator for laser ranging equipment.

Ukrainian developers have already created an advanced complex, the optical elements of which are made on the basis of zinc selenide (ZnSe) and including coordinate-sensitive photodetectors of detector heads, which provide sufficient sensitivity in a wide spectral range of 0,6-14 μm wavelengths. This is due to the optical transparency of lenses based on zinc selenide in this operating range.

To equip the new and modernized armored vehicles, the Guard (Warta) and Kolos complexes were developed. The basis of the complex is an accurate and coarse detection head of laser irradiation, which are used in the advanced guard-optical opto-electronic suppression system (complete with searchlights) and Kolos (Linkoy / SDR), as well as in ship-based optical-electronic suppression systems "Gyurza", "Owl".



The complex provides detection of laser irradiation of a tank within 360 ° in the horizontal plane and 20 ° in the vertical. The accuracy of determining the direction to the source of radiation by the front (Accurate) receivers is at least the 3 ° 27 'head in the 90 ° sector. Two precise heads, mounted in front of the roof of the tower, and two coarse heads, mounted in the aft part of the roof of the tower.
Means of reducing visibility - "Contrast"
Camouflage design for the protection of military equipment "Contrast" developed by Kharkiv National University. Karazin and the Institute of Automated Systems.
The intensive development of high-precision weapons kills the protection factor of weapons objects among the key problems determining the further development of military equipment. Moreover, the peculiarity of the use of modern means of destruction is that they ensure the destruction of armored vehicles practically throughout the depth of the operational-tactical formation of troops, which is up to 300 km, regardless of the time of day and weather conditions.

In 2002, the construction of the Contrast passed state tests on samples of military equipment: the T-84 tank, the Buk air defense complex and the Grif frontier-launch boat. Measurements made during the tests showed that the Contrast camouflage designs make it possible to reduce the target range by means of high-precision weapons 9 times. In particular, it was found that the T-84 tank, equipped with the Contrast camouflage network, is not recognized by means of visual observation from a distance of more than 500 meters. Tests have confirmed that "Contrast" can significantly reduce the visibility of weapons and military equipment in the infrared, radiothermal and radiolocation ranges and can be used for mobile weapons and military equipment.
The kit is resistant to fuels and lubricants and self-extinguishing.

According to the results of state tests. The Ministry of Defense of Ukraine adopted a set of Contrast camouflage designs for use by the Ukrainian Armed Forces. In turn, the commission that conducted the tests, taking into account the high technical characteristics, low cost and manufacturability of the “Contrast” CCM, recommended organizing its industrial production, which is currently organized in two cities of Ukraine. Now the production of "Contrast" is established in several enterprises, which produced about one hundred sets.

The issue of reducing visibility requires an integrated approach at the sample design level. KMDB them. O. O. Morozova changed the method of designing samples of armored vehicles of tanks with a view to reducing their visibility The KSMD tanks have the following means of reducing visibility: thermal shielding of the roof of the power compartment and the undercarriage, ventilation of the roof of the power compartment, improved sample architecture, reducing the effective dispersion surface (EPR), corner radar reflectors, etc.

New products proposed by KMDB

The main tank T-80UD (Object 478B / 478BE)

Under the terms of the contract, which is estimated at $ 650 million, Ukraine has pledged to supply Islamabad with 320 tanks and spare parts for four years, as well as train personnel and provide service equipment.

The interest of the Pakistani military to Ukrainian vehicles arose during the IDEX-95 exhibition in the United Arab Emirates, where a new, hitherto unknown participant in the Ukrspetsexport market showed three tanks to the public. In the summer of 1996, the contract was signed. Almost immediately, Ukraine received a prepayment of $ 68 million.

The first batch of X-NUMX tanks T-XNUMHUD was delivered to Pakistan in March 15, another 80 tanks were delivered in the middle of that year. The first batch of tanks consisted of tanks produced by the plant to them. Malysheva after the collapse of the Union, but not delivered to the customer. All in all, according to some sources, 1997 tanks T-35UD "Object 145B" from stocks of enticed forces of Ukraine and 80 new vehicles with a welded turret "Object 478БЭ" were left to Pakistan.

175 vehicles of this type were delivered to Pakistan (the remaining 145 tanks were supplied from the Armed Forces of Ukraine) under contract for 320 units.

The main tank T-84 "Hold" (Object 478DU4 "Kern").

Created in 1994 on the basis of the T-XNUMHSUD tank. Mainly differs from the latter by increased mass (80 t instead of 48 t), elongated, approximately 46%, body, welded turret, 10ТD-6 engine with an objective capacity of 2 ths. L. with. instead of 1,2TD-6 with power 1 thousand hp, greater speed, including reverse gear (1 and 75 km / h), the presence of the optical-electronic suppression system "Shtora-35" or "Varta" and weapons of Ukrainian production (1-mm tank gun - launcher KBA-125, machine guns KT-3 and KT-12,7).

The fire control system includes a day sight the gunner 1G46M, thermal sight "snow-storm-Catherine-E" (optional komplekttsii) sighting and observation complex commander PNA-5, anti-aircraft sight ROM-7, ballistic computer LIO-in sensors of input information, an improved 2EX42M stabilizer; sensor measuring the initial velocity of the projectile (complete set version). The commander's sight has a built-in laser range finder, which provides the commander with the ability to measure the distance to the target independently of the gunner, as well as a lateral lead entry device. In general, on Opot, compared with T-80U, T-80UD, T-90, the commander has the best capabilities for searching and self-defeating targets in the DUBL mode. The sight TKN-5 has a built-in laser range finder and a device for inputting lateral lead angles (UVBU).

The armored protection of the Oplot tank is provided by a modern, welded-rolled turret manufactured using advanced technology and high-quality materials. In the cavities of the tower placed highly efficient cellular filler. The roof of the tower is made of one-piece, which increased its rigidity, ensured manufacturability and stable quality under mass production conditions.
A complex of universal dynamic protection of the new generation of “LAW” is installed on the tower and the hull, which provides the tank with an increased level of survivability on the battlefield.

In the latest developments of Ukrainian tanks, the designers went on reducing the ammunition for the sake of increasing the safety of the tank in order to increase its survivability in case of penetration of the main armor. On the T-80, for example, the BC consists of 45 shots placed in the combat and control compartments without additional protection. On the T-84, the ammunition is reduced to 40 shots, 28 of which are placed in the charging mechanism, and the rest in the armored compartments in the hull and turret.
In 2000, the 10 machines were purchased by the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine. In 2006, along with the ongoing upgrading of the T-64B to the standard Bulat BM, funds were allocated for the purchase of new Oplot tanks (article 113 of the state budget for 2006 a year).


The tanks pass through the center of Kiev during a military parade in honor of Independence Day on Friday, 24 in August 2001. On this day, Ukraine celebrated the 10 anniversary of its independence. Photo UNIAN.


The main tank T-84-120 "Yatagan" (KERN-2 120)

This tank was created in 2000. During its development, technical solutions were used that were tested during the modernization of the T-72-120 tank, which was the first to use a new automatic loader for the cannon placed in an isolated autonomous compartment in the stern of the turret. The tank is armed with an 120-mm cannon - launcher complying with NATO standards, it is also possible to install a new 140 mm cannon. This upgrade option is worth considering in more detail below.




Tank "Yatagan" with automatic loader for the gun located in an isolated autonomous compartment in the stern of the tower. Photo by Anna Gene.


Rearrangement of domestic tanks with the use of AZ in a stand-alone module behind the tower.
KP KKBM named after A.A. Morozova has developed a version of the modernization of production tanks of domestic and foreign production (T-54 / 55, T-62, T-72, M60, etc.) as well as when creating new Yatagan tanks. It is possible to install guns caliber 120-140 mm without making significant design changes.



Automatic charging is located in the aft of the tower and is designed as an autonomous armored module. The module is mounted on the tower with the possibility of rotation around a horizontal, vertical, or inclined axis. To access the power plant quickly, it is enough to return the module to the automatic charging device around the axis at a sufficient angle and fix it in this state. In case of defeat of the ammunition of the automatic charge, the danger of the spread of fire.

Ammunition for the gun is forty shots (22 shots are placed in the conveyor of the automatic loader in the turret, 16 shots are placed in the auxiliary combat pack - the body conveyor, 2 shots are in the fighting compartment).

Such placement of ammunition is a significant advantage, significantly reducing the likelihood of destruction of ammunition as compared to domestic and foreign tanks ("Leopard-2", "Leclerc", etc.)

The use of the automatic charging of this data will increase the maintainability, reduce the irretrievable losses on the battlefield and ensure the possibility of retrofitting under the projectiles of different calibers.

In one of the containers are placed a hydraulic cylinder with the help of which they lift and rotate relative to the upper edge of the tower sheet. Electrical equipment is stirred in another armored tank.

Protection of the armored module is provided with the possibility of providing a rebound during shelling within the course angle ± 25 °, which corresponds to the NATO standard. The level of reservation of the autonomous compartment of the automatic loader is similar to the level of the main battle tanks of foreign countries (Abrams, Leopard-2, Leclerc).

An additional advantage of the technical solution is ease of use. This is stipulated, firstly, by the fact that, if necessary, repairs MTV (engine repair, transmission, etc.).

the armored sheepskin coat rises and returns on its hinges relative to the edge of the armor sheet, thus opening free access to the logistic equipment and units.

Heavy infantry fighting vehicle BTMP-84. Developed in 2001 g. It is an unparalleled in the world hybrid of a full-fledged main tank "Oplot" with the preservation of its full armament with the troop compartment. A feature of the design of the machine is the presence in the aft hull of the troop compartment, designed to accommodate infantrymen 5. The door in the stern of the car’s hull opens to the left, a ladder extends downwards, and the chassis roof hatch above the door rises, which allows the infantry to leave the car quickly. BTMP-84 is designed for all types of combat operations in conjunction with tanks. It is believed that the machine provides units mobility, security and firepower similar to tank units. The disadvantage of an infantry fighting vehicle set up in Kharkov on the basis of a tank is the small capacity of the troop compartment, an insufficient overview of it and the difficulty of leaving the machine under fire (in the case of BMT-72, which will be discussed below).

Armored repair and recovery vehicle BREM-84. Created in 1997 on the basis of the T-84 tank and intended for the evacuation of damaged and stuck armored and other vehicles, their field repair, the performance of engineering works and the transport of goods on the battlefield.

The main tank "Al Khalid." After the delivery of the Ukrainian T-80UD party, the Pakistani military continued to develop its national Al Khalid tank. The basis was taken Chinese tank Type-85, which was produced in Pakistan serially, but could not meet modern requirements. China did not produce the engine with the required power and therefore it was planned for the tank to install a diesel engine with 1200 horsepower. domestic or western production. Along with the Ukrainian 6TD-1 engine in Pakistan, three more tank prototypes with various power units were tested. Among them were the MTO with the English Perkins Condor diesel engine with 1200 horsepower, German MTU-871 / MTU-396 and TCM AVDS-1790. All the above-mentioned foreign engines did not stand the test of the harsh hot climate of southern Pakistan. However, preference was given to the Ukrainian MTO with the 6TD-1 engine (hereinafter referred to as 6TD-2). The Pakistani military was satisfied with the reliability of the T-XNUMHUD powerplant, which introduced a number of improvements. The power plant of the tank showed excellent reliability in the extreme desert climate of eastern Pakistan.


MTO with 6TD-2 engine


The production of the installation batch of Al-Khalid tanks was carried out at the Heavy Industries Texila plant in Pakistan. The first of the installment cars was assembled in March 2001 of the year, and the rest by July of that year. On the following series of tanks used engine compartment with an engine 6TD-2, hp power 1200. By the 2007 year, it is planned to manufacture 300 Al-Khalid tanks. Thus, the entire fleet of modern Pakistani tanks (T-XNUMHSUD and Al-Khalid) are unified by logistics and logistics. For the supply of engines Ukrainian tank builders received another 80 million US dollars. During the period of 150, a contract was signed for the supply of logistics equipment to the People's Republic of China, besides, the modernized logistics equipment is planned to be delivered to Pakistan in 2009.



A distinctive feature of the MTO with the 6TD-2 engine in comparison with other Russian and Ukrainian developments is that the transmission provides the 7 front and 5 reverse gears (BP provides an additional four reverse gears and can be installed during the modernization of the MTO other tanks). This ensures a high speed of reversing at speeds up to 35 km / h.

Upgrade Suggestions

The main tank T-64BM "Bulat"

In the period from 1991 to 1999, the KMDB developed a number of technical projects to enhance the security and modernization of the fire control system of the T-64BV and T-64BV-1 tanks to the level of the Oplot tank. In this case, three options for modernization were worked out.

The first option was to install a universal modular dynamic protection of the Ukrainian development for serial tanks T-64BV and T-64BB-1. Six T-64BV-1 tanks overhauled at the 115-m tank repair plant in the city of Kharkov with a built-in dynamic protection mock-up were demonstrated at the parade in honor of the independence of Ukraine 24 August 1999 of the year.


Upgraded T-64BM2.


The second option of modernization, along with the installation of dynamic protection, also included the modernization of the fire control system. A distinctive feature of the tank was the preservation of the searchlight L-4 sighting system TO1-KO1. Two upgraded tanks produced by HZTM were also demonstrated at the August 24 parade of the year 1999.

The third option, according to which it was decided to modernize the T-64 tanks to the Bulat BM standard, is to install the Knife universal dynamic protection, complete with additional passive reservations, and the 1А45 fire control system installed on the T-80У, T -80UD and T-90 and "Oplot". A prototype tank was demonstrated at the 24 August 1999 parade in Kiev. Thus, in terms of firepower and protection, the tank caught up with the best foreign analogues.

In 2005, 17 tanks were transferred to the armed forces (manufactured in accordance with government orders for 2004 year, in 2005, the order for Bulat BM was disrupted for political reasons), which were received by 1 Tank Brigade 8 of the army corps, and 19 will be upgraded in 2006 year. In 2006, from the budget for the modernization of tanks to them. Malysheva allocated about 100 mln. (about 20 mln. cu). According to the 2005 year, the price of upgrading one tank was 2 million 300 thousand. grove

Modernization of T-64 to the standard "Bulat" - the first major state defense order to the plant. Malysheva, starting with 1992 year.



Tank T-64B in the shops of the plant. Malysheva is awaiting modernization. 22 in May in 2006. To the right is a tank upgraded to the standard of Bulat BM.
Photo KP "Plant them. Malysheva.


Modernized tank T-64B (BM "Bulat") on the basic technical characteristics is comparable to the Russian T-90 and is close to the Ukrainian "Oplot" and has prospects for subsequent modernization due to the installation of a more powerful power plant with an 6TD-1 or 6TD- engine 2., Improved sighting devices, active protection system, a more modern communication and navigation system. The service life of the upgraded T-64B tank has been extended by 15 years, the tank's life has been increased to 11 thousand km. (as for the new tank).



Tanks BM "Bulat", made to order 2004 year before being sent to the troops. Photo by Anna Gene.


In the light of the introduction of a modernized BM Bulat tank to the armaments of the Ukrainian army, it is worthwhile to briefly review some materials that appeared about him in the press. For example, one cannot fail to comment on the article “Patches for Bulat” that appeared in the online edition of “OBKOM”, or Worn armor for the Ukrainian army, where the author Pavel Volnov, who is clearly not burdened with technical knowledge, tries to talk about this tank.

For example, the author claims that the “sixty-fours” were considered hopelessly outdated and certainly did not strengthen the combat power of the country. And further informs that in fact he is just “one of”. At the same Kharkov plant, a much more efficient T-84 "Oplot" was created.

First of all, the author of the above lines should understand that the “strongholds” do not produce at all because they do not want to, and therefore. That the cost of upgrading the T-64 to the standard “Bulat” costs 4 times lower than the production of the new tank BM Oplot (the Oplot costs 1. 684 million USD, while the Bulat in 416 .e) At the same time, according to the main characteristics of firepower, protection and mobility, the tank is only slightly inferior to the new “Oplot” tank. Modernization is the main direction in the development of tanks, both abroad and in Russia and Ukraine, for example, in Germany, the Leopard-2 tanks underwent several upgrades. The last of them is “Leopard-2А6”, Russia is upgrading its T-72B and T-80 tanks, Poland is upgrading its T-72 to PT-91A standard, and the Czech Republic, Slovakia, is also modernizing its T-72 as well as the vast majority of other countries. Surprisingly, the author did not notice.

It’s too early to write off the T-64, this is the main tank of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, which, even in its un-modernized form, is capable of performing the tasks before them. It is impossible to completely replace it with a new one, in the amount of at least 350-400 units for financial reasons. Moreover, the upgraded "Bulat" is not inferior, and in some respects it surpasses the most advanced tanks that are in service with Ukraine’s neighbors, such as the PT-91 "Twardy" (the modernized T-72M, Poland), TR-85M1 "Bison" (modernized T-55, Romania), T-72М2 and T-72СZ (Upgraded T-72. Slovakia and the Czech Republic). Tank BM “Bulat” is at the level of the best Russian models of T-80 and T-90, as well as in all characteristics, except for the ability to fight in the dark, such foreign tanks as “Leopard-2А5” and М1А2 “Abrams” .

The main tank T-72. T-72-120, T-72MP, T-72AG

The modernization program provides for the elimination of the lag of the T-72 in combat performance, firepower and survivability from modern main tanks.

The most profound version of the modernization of the T-72 tank proposed by Ukraine is the modernization of tanks under the T-72-120 program. The T-72-120 is equipped with a 120-mm cannon KBM2 (can be installed with a 140 caliber mm). In the stern of the turret of the tank is placed the loading mechanism in the stand-alone module on the 22 unitary shot of the NATO standard. Under the revolving floor placed mechanized protected styling.

The armor protection of the Ukrainian tank is significantly enhanced by the installation of universal dynamic protection of the hull and turret, as well as additional passive protection. The tests of dynamic protection showed that it reliably protects the tank at a distance of more than 500 meters from damage by NATO cumulative and armor-piercing ammunition. The T-72-120 tank is also equipped with the Curtain-1 or Varta CPD.
The fire control system is installed at the request of the customer in versions of domestic and foreign execution. The first version uses the modernized OMS 1A45. The second option - the installation of the French MSA "SAVAN-15". Increased mobility on this and other T-72 retrofit options is provided by the installation of 6ТD-1 hp 1000 engines. and 6TD-2 horsepower 1200 instead of the standard engine power 780 / 840 hp (which does not provide high performance when working in hot conditions).

For upgrading, two less radical programs are also offered, while maintaining the old placement of the automatic charging device in the housing. The modernization programs use many of the main components of the T-XNUMHUD and Oplot tanks. Modernization of the tank to the configuration of the T-80AG includes the installation of the 72-1 MSW, improvements to the protection of the tank, and the installation of a new MTO with 45TD-6 or 1TD-6 engines. At the request of the customer, the T-2 tank can be equipped with the modernization of the commander PNK-72 with the TKN-5 sight. The sight TKN-5 has a built-in laser range finder and a device for inputting lateral lead angles. A closed-type anti-aircraft installation is installed on the tank, providing, with the closed hatch, effective fire at ground and low-flying air targets at a range of up to 5 m.

Heavy BMP BMT-72

Heavy combat infantry vehicles (BMT) are intended for combat operations as part of tank units and subunits, being with them in the same battle formations, as well as independently. In this case, paratroopers paratroopers parachute and continue the battle on foot. The use of BMT, possessing weapons, protection and maneuverability, the same as that of tanks, provides close cooperation on the battlefield of tanks and gunners, paratroopers with the most complete use of the strengths of these types of troops.

BMT-72 was created on the extended seven-base base of the T-72 tank, after carrying out a set of measures to modernize it, including the installation of additional protection on the hull and turret, and the installation of the engine compartment of the Oplot tank.

Due to the compactness of the Ukrainian diesel tank engines, it began to provide it with a new compartment to accommodate the 5 infantry. Unlike the BTMP-84 vehicle design, the Oplot tank was designed on the basis of the chassis of the hull which was supposed to allow the infantry to quickly leave the vehicle on the BMT-72, landing and disembarking from BMT-72 is carried out through the hatches in the roof of the vehicle behind the tower. This solution is hardly optimal.

Medium tank T-54 / 55, T-62. T-55AGM

The modernization program includes bringing their combat characteristics, firepower and survivability and mobility to the standards of modern main battle tanks.

Modernization of tanks T-54 / 55, T-62 is carried out in the directions of increasing firepower, protection and mobility. Modernization can be carried out for each of the proposed areas separately or in any combination thereof.

Modernization of firepower can be provided by installing 125 mm cannon CBA-3 or 120 mm cannon KBM2, new fire control system, weapon stabilizer, etc. At the same time, the tank is equipped with automatic charging in an autonomous container in a buried niche, in principle, similar to those used on the tank "Yatagan" and when upgrading the T-72-120 tanks but calculated not on the 22 but on the 18 shots. In this case, the crew of the tank is reduced to 3 people, while the rate of fire does not depend on the terrain and crew fatigue.

Modernization of the tank's power section is ensured by installing an 5TDF engine with an 700 horsepower. or 5TDFM power 850 hp onboard gearboxes, efficient maintenance systems.

Modernization of protection is carried out by installing passive armor protection (sets) and built-in dynamic protection (VDZ). The set of additional protection (CDS) is intended to increase the level of protection of the tank against cumulative and kinetic attack means with the minimum possible increase in the mass of the tank.

The use of the latest dynamic CLEAR protection devices provides an increase in the protection of the T-55 tank from kinetic attack weapons - in 3,5 ... 4,3 (base tank protection - 200 mm, upgraded protection increases to 700 - 850 mm), which corresponds to the protection of modern main tanks. Such an increase in protection remains unattainable for other developers, who provide tank resistance at the level of 450-500 mm, which is not enough to protect against kinetic action from modern ammunition.

Increased resistance in the event of penetration of the main armor provides an improved automatic fire-explosion suppression system, which has an increased speed of detection and elimination of fire sites. Additionally, measures are taken to reduce tank visibility, increase crew survivability, etc.

Modernization proposals have also been developed for foreign-made tanks, such as the M60. Modernization may include the installation of a modern turret, similar to that installed on the Yatagan tank, the 6TD-2 engine, a set of dynamic protection for the turret and the hull.

Battle Modules

Combat modules are designed to arm the newly created and upgrade light and medium category armored vehicles, as well as heavy infantry fighting vehicles to increase their firepower. Replacing the regular combat unit of outdated equipment such as the BMP-1 / 2, M-113, BTR of various modifications, etc. allows, without modifying the chassis base, to bring the firepower of a combat vehicle to the level of the best modern world analogues. The small dimensions of the modules allow them to be placed on virtually any vehicle (for example, the Ingul module with the 30 mm gun and ATGM can be placed on the BRDM-2) armored personnel carriers, coast guard boats and other carriers.

An analysis of the current state of domestic and foreign light-armored vehicles shows that many countries have a large number of combat vehicles armed with weapons that do not meet modern requirements, which are characterized by a sufficiently reliable undercarriage of their own resources. As an example - infantry fighting vehicles BMP-1. Replacing the entire fleet of armored vehicles with new ones, at this time, is not possible even for the most economically developed countries, so the most acceptable way out is to upgrade using universal combat modules.

Ukrainian enterprises have developed a large number of combat modules, which by the basic indicators correspond to the best world standards, and by many they are superior. Among them are the Typhoon, Thunder, Ingul, Flurry, Bug, ZTM-1, BAU-23 XXNNX, and other modules.



Universal combat module GROM rendered armament for light combat armored vehicles, designed to defeat manpower, combat armored vehicles, firing points and low-flying, low-speed targets of the enemy. The armament is stabilized in two planes with the help of the modern armament stabilizer IED-1000.

It is installed on light combat armored vehicles (BTR-60 / 70 / 80, BTR-3Е, MT-LB, M-113, BMP-2, etc.), providing an increase in their firepower.
Through the use of rendered weapons, the crew’s protection increased, the mass of the combat module was reduced, and the living conditions in the fighting compartment were improved (no gas contamination when fired). The module was installed on the promising Ukrainian BTR-4, as well as on upgraded versions of the BTR-70 and MT-LB. The module was developed by the KMDB named after Morozov.

Universal combat module INGUL

The combat module Ingul was developed by the Kiev Scientific and Technical Center of Artillery and Small Arms (KP NTT ASO) for the modernization of existing models of wheeled and tracked combat vehicles. Distinctive features of the module is its high compactness with high firepower, allowing it to be installed on light-duty machines up to the BRDM-2.

The armament of the module uses an automatic gun ZTM-2 (or another gun, for example 2А42, 2А72) caliber 30 mm and a machine gun paired with it, an example of KT-7.62 (PCT).

The OTP-20 Cyclops-1 optic-television sighting system, which includes a television camera and a laser rangefinder, the carousel SVU-500 stabilizer, provides high accuracy of fire in motion, is used to control the fire on the module. The module is not habitable, the gun is guided by the monitor’s help at the operator’s (commander’s) workplace in the body of the combat vehicle. This provides increased personnel safety, less gas pollution in the internal volume of the combat vehicle.

For launching smoke grenades installed system 902В "Cloud". To combat heavy armored personnel carriers and enemy tanks, the module is equipped with a launcher for anti-tank missiles, for example, the Barrier complex with P-2 missiles or others at the request of the customer.

The module can be installed on the BTR-70, BTR-80, BRDM-2, BRDM-2M as well as small displacement patrol boats.

Universal combat module TYPHOON

The “Typhoon” combat module contains a stabilized gun coupled with a machine gun, means for installing a missile complex, a grenade launcher. The basis of the fire control system is a stabilized aiming-searching equipment with a thermal imaging channel, a laser rangefinder and counting devices of an artillery system. Sighting and search equipment additionally contains an optical-electronic channel, including television surveillance cameras with a wide field of view and a narrow field of view, a video computer, and a video computer monitor at the operator’s workplace.

The sighting and search equipment works as follows: the operator-gunner sets a marker on the selected target and presses the auto-gripping button. Three gyros provide a combination of a marker and a target. At the command of “Auto Capture”, further observation of the target is carried out by a surveillance camera operating in the narrow field of view mode, or a thermal imaging camera with a zoom lens, and the video computer program of the target auto-tracking is activated. In this case, when the tower is mounted on the chassis, the camera automatically tracks the moving target, allowing it to keep the target in the center of the monitor screen.

After that, the operator-gunner chooses the type of weapon, the type of ammunition and presses the "fire" button. The calculating device automatically calculates the vertical angle of the weapon, depending on the distance of the target. After hitting the target, the operator-gunner switches the surveillance camera from the narrow field of view to the wide field of view and selects the next target.

In all modes, there are two stabilization systems. One weapon stabilization system, the other system stabilization of search and sighting devices.
The test results showed that the effectiveness of firing increased compared with similar devices by 20%, the reaction time of the artillery system is 1-2 seconds. The effective firing range is up to 5500 m. The weight of the turret without ammunition is no more than 2000 kg. The module was developed by the Kharkov design bureau "UKRSPETSTEHNIKA".

Universal combat module SHKVAL includes 30-mm cannon, 7,62-mm coaxial machine gun, 30-mm automatic grenade launcher and anti-tank guided weapons. The module was developed by KP "STC ASO". The construction of the Squall combat module is very flexible, which makes it easy to replace the existing weapons with another.

The 30-mm dual-feed gun has ready-to-use ammunition from 350 shells. Ammunition 7,62-mm coaxial machine gun is 2500 ammunition. An 30-mm grenade launcher is mounted on the left side of the turret, in which 29 is ready to use grenades, and in addition 87 grenades are transported in reserve (three stores, each of which contains 29 grenades).

Six 81-mm smoke / aerosol grenade rigs are installed three on each side of the turret for firing ahead.

The fire control system includes the OTP-20 aiming complex, which is integrated with the guided missile firing control system, and the VCA-500 weapon stabilizer.

Universal combat module ShKVAL is installed on the upgraded BMP-1U and on the BTR-3U armored personnel carrier.



On the upgraded version of this module (installed on the base on the BMP-1 base), an advanced fire control system was installed, based on an optical-television multichannel aiming complex with a thermal imaging, laser ranging channel and a guided missile channel in a single unit. Previously, the module included separately placed television cameras TPK-1 and TPK-2 included in the optical television [/ b] OTP-20 Cyclops-1 complex, as well as the VDL-2 laser distance meter and OU-5 IR illuminator.



It is worth noting that the Ukrainian modules look quite good against the background of foreign, including Russian, developments, especially this applies to the Typhoon, Ingul and Thunder modules, which are largely unique in their characteristics. Increased attention in the Ukrainian modules is given to the issues of review and shooting efficiency.

Creation of armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles

Technical and strategic miscalculations - BTR-3U and BTR-94

Another activity of the KMDB and the plant them. V.A. Malysheva in the 1990-ies. was the creation of the BMP and BTR. As a result, exotic heavy infantry fighting vehicles based on the T-84 and T-72 tanks were described above. Also, the BTR-94 and BTR-3 armored personnel carriers were developed, which, in fact, represented the BTR-80 modernization programs. However, here the company was not a big success. This is explained, first of all, by technical reasons, due to the non-optimal layout of the BTR-70 / 80 on the basis of which they tried to create a promising vehicle.
In 1999, the 50 BTR-94 procurement contract was concluded with Jordan. At the beginning, the customer had complaints about the quality of the BTR-94, which were subsequently eliminated. In 2004, all the BTR-94 were transferred as part of the assistance of Jordan to the new Iraqi army.

At the end of the year 2005 plant them. Malysheva (using his status as a special exporter) signed a contract for the sale of 150 combat modules to Jordan to equip light armored vehicles.

BTR-4

Impressed by the Pakistan contract, the rate was placed on tanks and vehicles based on them. Alas, in a very crowded market, in conditions with a very non-flexible marketing policy, it was not possible to consolidate success.

If the KMDB had started the development of the BTR-4 and LTBM Dozor earlier, the situation could be completely different now, even without considering multimillion-dollar contracts for the supply of wheeled combat vehicles up to 30 tons (Poland, Finland, Czech Republic, etc.) to European countries the share of supplies of high-quality cars of this category to the countries of Asia and the Arab states could drastically improve the situation of the KMDB.


BTR-4. Photo KMDB.


The new generation BTR-4 BTR was first introduced in 2006 at the Aerosvit-21 exhibition. Of course, work on a machine of this class was started very late.

The layout of the BTR-4 is completely different from all previously created domestic BTR (BTR-60 / 70 / 80 / 90). The control compartment is located in the front of the hull, the power compartment is located on the left side behind the driver’s back and is provided with a passage on the starboard side into the troop compartment. Next is the troop compartment with double doors for the landing of troops. For the commander and the driver, there are doors in the boards with integrated bulletproof glass blocks. Windshields are also bulletproof glass blocks that can be closed with armored covers.

The combat mass of the BTR-4 in the base version is 17 tons (19.3 tons with the “Thunder” module), in the version with additional armor, the weight can reach up to 27 tons (protection from 30-mm cannons). The landing BTR-4 is eight people and three crew members. The power plant consists of a two-stroke diesel 3TD horsepower 500. with automatic hydromechanical transmission. At the request of customers, it is possible to install an engine from Deutz with a power of 489 or 598 hp. On the basis of the BTR-4, it is possible to manufacture vehicles for various purposes: fire support vehicles, commanding, ambulance, anti-aircraft, combat reconnaissance vehicles or repair and recovery vehicles.

Alternative offers

heavy BMP / BTR

A new vehicle based on the T-64 was created by specialists of the Kharkiv Armored Repair Plant. The base machine for the family of combat and auxiliary vehicles was created by “turning” the T-64 tank in the engine-transmission compartment forward, removing the turret and the equipment of the troop compartment from it. The result was the UMR-64, which can accommodate up to 15 functional modules weighing up to 22 tons. One of the options is to create on its base a heavy infantry fighting vehicle with a landing force to 10 people and an uninhabited combat module. In the base case, the BMP weighs 32,5 tons. On the basis of the machine, it is also planned to create a universal combat supply vehicle (UMBP-64), a highly protected command and command vehicle weighing up to 41 tons, 120 millimeter self-propelled mortar and other machines.

For landing and landing, the BTR is equipped with convenient doors in the aft hull. This distinguishes this development of Kharkov tank builders from competitors both in Ukraine and Russia. Unlike the KMDB specialists, the designers of the Kharkov Armored Repair Plant did not attempt to combine incompatible things — a tank and an armored troop-carrier; as a result, they received a less applicable design that did not fully perform the functions of either one or the other. From the Russian heavy armored personnel carriers (BMO-T, DPM-72), the Ukrainian machine compares favorably with the greater capacity of the troop compartment and significantly better conditions for landing and boarding the car.


BTR-64E. Photo Dmitry (DPD).


Thus, on the basis of the T-64, instead of their disposal, the company headed by V. Fedosov created a number of special equipment, primarily for the foreign customer, so that the buyer could choose the product he liked.

An autonomous module with a front-mounted logistics system with the aim of creating on its base various military vehicles (heavy armored personnel carriers) and civilian design developed by the im plant. V.O. Malisheva, who once participated in the competition for the creation of heavy infantry fighting vehicles for the Jordanian army based on the Centurion tank. Then the designers went easy by installing a compact diesel 5TDF / M on it, which provided a small hatch in the rear of the hull for landing troops. However, the customer preferred the more expensive car of his own design - “Temsakh”. To provide the infantry unit with the possibility of safely dismounting from the stern of the vehicle, a vehicle with a front engine was designed. To achieve this without constructive changes in the hull of the base tank with the aft engine layout, it is used in such a way that in its new look the design of the tank hull front part was reprofiled (the tank aft became the lead part). To use the tank in this form, the direction of rotation of the onboard gears is changed, the suspension geometry is also adjusted to preserve the distribution of track tension. The commander and driver are moved to elevated workplaces behind the partition of the engine compartment.

Autonomous complex

The management of the DP Kharkiv Armored Repair Plant, where the T-64 was overhauled and upgraded (up to the standard T-64BM2), believes that the tank has prospects in the external market, also offered the creation of a heavy machine on its base BMP / BTR, support vehicles, self-propelled mortar, command and staff vehicle, universal combat supply vehicle. All these vehicles, along with the main modernized tank T-64B, can become the basis of an autonomous complex of armored vehicles on a single base of the tank. Such an autonomous complex can be a powerful armored complex based on the T-64 tank, including part of any formation of general-purpose forces, capable of performing tactical tasks in isolation from the rear bases. Imagine how much you can simplify the processes of supporting combat capability, maintenance and repair of equipment of subsections and parts of the Ground Forces of Ukraine, if you unify the base of the main tank, the infantry fighting vehicle of the armored evacuation vehicle, the command-staff sanitary evacuation vehicle and the material support machine. In addition, the complex will include field artillery, air defense complexes, reconnaissance complexes. All this is offered by the specialists of the Kharkov Armored Repair Plant. They do not just offer, individual samples and draft designs are made.

The concept of an autonomous reconnaissance and strike complex is fundamental to the development of the military-technical concept of a new generation armored weapon system. This is the creation of a family of standardized samples on the basis of a single chassis (united in a single information space). Thus, at the beginning of the 21 century, samples of armored weapons again adapted to the changed conditions and turned into ground combat highly protected vehicles, which are part of a unified weapon system. At the same time, they retain the main distinctive feature - a high degree of universality, which allows solving various types of combat missions in all types of combat operations and effectively interacting with other combat weapons.

In this aspect, it is worth looking at the opinion of experts from 38 Research Institute of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and Omsk KBTM. Experts of the Federal Republic of Germany adhere to a similar concept. For details, see Autonomous complex of armored vehicles - Transformation of armored weapons in modern conditions.



However, the initiative of Kharkiv repairmen for the possible export of a family of vehicles based on T-64 was not at all welcomed by the Central Armored Office of Ukraine, it was stated that the task of Kharkiv residents was to repair equipment, and not to argue about its export.
In addition, it should be noted that the modernization of T-64B tanks to the standard of Bulat BM or T-64BM2 tanks, which can be carried out at the enterprises of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine for much smaller funds, is noted by V. Fedosov, director of the subsidiary Kharkiv Armored Repair Plant. and director of the concern "Tehvoenervice" Leonid Sholomitsky. At the very least, it would be wise to divide these tasks between them and the plant. Malysheva in a proportional manner.

Meanwhile, the armored repair plants of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine are now mainly engaged in work on the repair and modernization of armored vehicles for a foreign customer - Pakistan, China, Jordan, Algeria, African countries, etc.



Kiev Armored Plant gives a second life and T-72. The firing efficiency achieved from a distance of three kilometers was equal to 97% - and this despite the fact that the shooting was carried out in motion and at very high air temperatures.

Foreign market competitors

On the external market, the main competitors of Ukrainian tanks are roughly similar to them in price and, in general, according to the main characteristics, tanks representing the approach of the Russian school of tank building, these are primarily T-90, Polish PT-91, Chinese Type-96.

T-90 was created in the late 80-x as a deep modernization of the tank T-72B. In 1989, the UKBTM put the first four tanks to the test, which later became known as the T-90. The main difference of the T-72B from the tank was the presence of an automated OMS borrowed from the T-80U / UD tank, before this the T-72 had not been equipped with an automatic OMS. The tank was also equipped with a built-in dynamic protection "Contact-5", and subsequently also the CEP "Shtora-1". At the same time, the design of the tank as a whole was similar to the T-72B tank, equipped with a cast turret and an HP 840 engine. In response to 1996-99 selling X-NUMX T-320UD India tanks to Ukraine in Ukraine, they urgently decided to restore the balance of power (at that time Indian tankers simply had nothing to do with Pakistani T-80UD, which were a bit overwhelming to their T-80M and T-72) and purchase a batch of T-55C in Russia (export version of T-90). In 90, the 1999 T-3C machines took part in tests in India, one of them with a cast turret and 90 new with welded turrets. The tests of the Russian T-2С tanks, which took place in the desert of Rajasthan, according to the Indian side, turned out to be not quite the same as the Nizhny Tagil tank builders would like. According to the report, which is referenced by an Indian source of “Political Events” (Political Events), B-90-84 engines with a power of 1 hp. all three machines that took part in the tests did not pass the test due to severe overheating. And one of the tank engines failed, unable to withstand operation in conditions of high temperature and dust. But in the end, in Delhi, they did not abandon the purchase of new Russian tanks. In addition, due to the lack of air conditioning over the past four years, because of this, the 840-80 OMS, which costs almost 90% of the total cost of the tank, were unsuitable for use, attempts to solve this problem have not yet been crowned with success. Thus, the supply of Ukrainian tanks to Pakistan, in fact, reanimated the Russian tank construction, which in those years was in the deepest crisis - there was a question about turning off the capacity for the production of tanks at Uralvagonzavod.

So what is the T-90 compared to the Ukrainian tank "Oplot"? In terms of armor, the Ukrainian tank not only greatly exceeds the T-90, equipped with a cast turret, but also new T-90, which began to equip with a welded turret. Steel with the ESR, from which the tower of the Oplot tank is made, provides an increase in durability on 10-15 percent compared to a welded turret made of medium-strength armor steel used on T-90С tanks that were delivered to India. The roof of the tower of the Ukrainian tank is made entirely of stamped, which increased its rigidity, ensured manufacturability and stable quality in mass production conditions, unlike T-90С, in which the roof of the tower is welded from individual parts, which reduces the rigidity of the high-explosive impact. It is also rather strange that the T-90 has a structurally lower tower defense, relative to the hull (theoretically it should be the other way around). It is also worth noting the improved architecture of the "Oplot", which reduces the effective surface scattering (EPR), corner radar reflectors and means of reducing the visibility in the radar and infrared wavelengths. T-90С has 1,2 ... 1,5 times more EPR, about 1,2 times greater thermal contrast in the infrared range (engine exhaust - on the left side), which facilitates targeting of weapons with homing heads, is detected by means of intelligence from a longer range. T-90, with external similarity with T-84 looks more archaic.

In terms of firepower, the Ukrainian and Russian tanks are actually equivalent, since in fact they use the same fire control system with minor modifications. Nevertheless, it is worth noting that the Oplot tank’s sighting system of the PNK-5 commander AGAT-SM with the integrated laser range finder and the lateral lead angle inserter (UVBU), the PNK-5 increases the effectiveness of firing by the commander for 20-50% and halves the time to prepare a shot. Also, to ensure stable shooting accuracy, a SUIT-1, produced by Luch Design Bureau, was installed on a Ukrainian tank (such designs exist in Russia, but appeared later and have not been offered for export yet). In addition, at Oplot, there is a sensor measuring the initial velocity of the projectile, which makes it possible to measure the specified speed with each gun firing and then enter information into the tank ballistic computer of the fire control complex in order to automatically take into account the correction for barrel bore wear, temperature of the charge and other factors.

In terms of mobility, the B-84 engine is significantly inferior to the Ukrainian 6ТD-2 in terms of both power and reliability of desert conditions at ambient temperatures and ease of use. In recent years, Russian developers have managed to catch up with the Ukrainian diesel in power (B92C2 -1000 hp and B99 1200 hp), but further boosting the engine seems unrealistic. At the same time, the Ukrainian diesel 6TD-3 can develop power up to 1500 hp.

conclusions

In 2004, the State Enterprise "Malyshev Plant" fulfilled the state defense order for the modernization of armored vehicles - Bulat BM tanks, this was the first government-paid order to supply armored vehicles for the army from 1992, when T-44UD "Birch" was supplied .
Delivered in the 1999 year and shown on the parade of tanks "Oplot" manufactured by the order of the Ukrainian army, were manufactured at the expense of the own funds of the plant. In vain, the then plant manager, Grigory Malyuk, hoped that they would pay us back this year ... visits to Kuchma, who found a more suitable solution, did not help either - just dismiss the director ... for not paying the workers ’salary, who planned to file a lawsuit against the government if it does not pay until 4 August, the state order for the release of "strongholds". Another explanation for the prompt and decisive action of the Kuchma junta is the intractability of the general director on the delivery of T-XNUMHUD tanks with dynamic protection of “LAW” to the US, as the general director said, Americans are purchasing two or three copies to handle the means of destruction. The director rejected the proposal to put the tanks as targets, with the result that disclosure of certain properties of the machine is not excluded. The 80 tank was later delivered to the USA.

The budget for 2004 year for the modernization of tanks T-64 BM "Bulat" provides 40 mln. In 2004, the plant them. Malysheva fulfilled an order for the manufacture of Bulat tanks for the 17 Ukrainian army, in 2005 the tanks were transferred to the troops. Naturally, this can be called the merit of the government headed by Prime Minister Yanukovych, during which there was a significant growth of the country's economy.

However, due to the aggravated political situation and the onset of political strife in 2005, the. Malysheva - the main performer of the order for the modernization of the T-64. The line for the allocation of 2005 million in 120 in the year, which were allocated by the Yanukovych government to continue the modernization, was removed from the budget and thus the plant was left without a state order. Thus, the empty areas for the production of tanks brought great losses to the plant, and fixed assets came from the production of agricultural and mining equipment, such as deliveries of drilling machines to China and the production of Obriy combines, as well as deliveries of diesel engines for Ukrzheleznoy Road and drilling rigs and pipe layers for Naftohaz Ukrainy. Now it is also possible to separate civil and special production of the plant with its possible subsequent privatization.

Nevertheless, even with the “orange” power on the 2006 year, the plant received a state order, although not to the extent that was required.

The Ukrainian leadership needs to realize that the preservation and normal functioning of the state-owned enterprise "Malyshev Plant" and the KMDB im. Morozov is the most important task for the preservation of Ukraine as a developed industrial power. Without a state defense order, this is not possible; management also needs to realize that for the commercial success of promising high-tech developments, they must be put into service and delivered, at least in small quantities, to the troops. No foreign customer will spend money on the purchase of high-tech complexes of active and dynamic protection, guided weapons, etc., if they exist in single copies and are not in service with the army of Ukraine. This, above all, relates to new developments of KAZ Zaslon, DZ Nizhny, promising TOUR and other promising developments.

In 2009, a new modification of the Oplot tank, equipped with a full-line anti-tandem dynamic knife defense, was released to the state tests.

Sources:
Newspaper "Narodna Armiya" 2006.01.03. "With a rift on the zakordonny rinok ..."
The newspaper "Army of Ukraine" 2005 №10. "Bulat at style Modern"
Magazine "Arms Export" No. 5. 2005. "Production of armored vehicles in Ukraine: a glorious past, a crisis present, a hazy future"
MIC №№4 (21) 2-4.02. 2004. "Realism is needed in assessing the potential of the Ukrainian military-industrial complex and the policy of official Kiev."
Center for Army Studies of Conversion and Disarmament. 08.08.2001. “SERVICES OF THE KIEV ARMORETRIAN FACTORY INTEREST IN MACEDONIA, PAKISTAN, CHINA, JORDAN AND ALGERIA”
Patents of Ukraine № 49978, 22363, 73006, 50850, 32621.


Photo sources:
http://kharkivoda.gov.ua
http://www.morozov.com.ua
http://president.org.ua
http://www.mil.gov.ua
http://unian.net
http://armor.kiev.ua/
Author:
Originator:
http://btvt.narod.ru/4/Ukraine/ukraina_1991_2006.htm
185 comments
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  1. Truffoff
    Truffoff 1 June 2013 09: 48 New
    -7
    And all cry that there is no money in Ukraine.
    And how much do you owe us? Tak.Navskidku:
    To the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation - $ 390 million
    To VTB - $ 3,5 billion
    Well, it's time to return!
    We can of course, and plants to pick up.
    What is your best?
    1. Abakanets
      Abakanets 1 June 2013 13: 15 New
      -13
      With a fright Ukraine should something of the Russian Federation?
      1. Corneli
        Corneli 1 June 2013 13: 24 New
        0
        Quote: Abakanets
        With a fright Ukraine should something of the Russian Federation?

        Because Truffoff said so))) And in fact, he wrote funny figures, I would even say scandalous) For those machinations, Julia, in Russia, first brought a criminal case, but then she entered into a "sweet" gas contract ... And when Yanukovych, after becoming president, tried those affairs and denyuzhku hang on Julia, the Kremlin "suddenly" turned on the wildest "frost". And pritenzii from Russia began to pause, because those lost "penny", just nonsense compared with the new income from the "honest gas contract")))
        1. roma2
          roma2 2 June 2013 18: 04 New
          -3
          But for some reason your sweet contract does not pay back the funds that she stole from you.
    2. Avenger711
      Avenger711 1 June 2013 18: 05 New
      +1
      No money, Andrew breshet.
      1. family
        family tree 2 June 2013 00: 03 New
        +1
        I do not believe in television advertising, Andrei Tarasenko and Khlopotov, more they all are synonymous. Amen!
    3. anton107798
      anton107798 2 June 2013 20: 58 New
      -9
      Quote: Truffoff

      We can of course, and plants to pick up.
      What is your best?



      A sense to give you the plants? what would you like them drove into the abyss, and then throw up your hands? Cleverly
  2. roial
    1 June 2013 09: 51 New
    +3
    if my memory serves me correctly, then your president, before landing on the bench of our Yulichka, she then warmed your MO, said that he had no complaints to her, so decide then.
    1. pensioner
      pensioner 1 June 2013 12: 00 New
      +7
      To her - as a woman, Putin has no complaints ... And he will shake off the debt. Do not even think.
      1. roial
        1 June 2013 12: 20 New
        0
        Well, well.
        First you find out what these contracts were for, who gave guarantees and did he have the right to do so ??
        Consult with lawyers and forget you already about this debt.
        Right, I would be ashamed to blow the whole world like this MO, this pretty (at that time) woman rolled
        1. pensioner
          pensioner 1 June 2013 12: 28 New
          10
          The one who is stronger is right. It seems you should have understood this a long time ago ... Especially since you stole it. And Putin is his own lawyer and consultant. He will consult ... Yes, and his memory is good ...
          1. roial
            1 June 2013 12: 36 New
            -10
            The rights are not the one who is stronger, but the one who has iron eggs.
            I remember before the storming of the Terrible ALL your generals refused to command the group.
            So a brother does not stand true.

            Quote: retired
            And Putin is his own lawyer and consultant. Will consult ...

            that's why there everything has died down.
            1. pensioner
              pensioner 1 June 2013 13: 00 New
              +3
              You move here too much, do not drag it. Touch your eggs, suddenly poured with iron. If not - prepare grandmother. As it died down, it would get annoyed. Soon I feel in Ukraine a new tax will be introduced (in order to pay off debts with Russia) under the name “For all bygone”.
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. pensioner
                  pensioner 1 June 2013 13: 34 New
                  +6
                  hi Thank! Nyo-yo-yo pay. Toko then give the last.
                2. Corneli
                  Corneli 1 June 2013 19: 41 New
                  -6
                  Quote: Truffoff
                  BRAVO!!! hi And then Ohly ave!

                  SO!!! “Violation” is, to put it mildly, nowhere more obvious, I threw the 5-7 clock back !!! Nu-Nu, let's see how the "rules of the site" are observed here)
              2. roial
                1 June 2013 13: 19 New
                -10
                that is not just forgive you all the debts
                1. Rider
                  Rider 1 June 2013 14: 07 New
                  +7
                  Quote: roial
                  that is not just forgive you all the debts


                  we may be forgiven, but for you, definitely not.

                  wink
                  1. roma2
                    roma2 2 June 2013 18: 11 New
                    +1
                    Well, how many years do we return debts to you then 15-17 ??? Wait and continue laughing
                2. O_RUS
                  O_RUS 1 June 2013 22: 29 New
                  10
                  Quote: roial
                  that is not just forgive you all the debts


                  it seems you can call you adequate .... well, you carry such nonsense.
                  It will be necessary ... they will get every penny from Ukraine ... I hope I don’t have to write, who will give the money ... guess?

                  And why the hell did you mention Grozny here? Che for the soul you have? Like to press on the sick? Nothingness

                  Sorry 18-20 summer boys who learned what it is ... war in Chechnya

                  Leave your "iron eggs" (a blacksmith will come and chop off), but better explain how it turned out that the Ukrainian fired at these still snotty summer kids of 18, what pushed him to fight against people like him? I will give one example - the second war in Chechnya, the Zavodskoy district of Grozny ... a group of snipers (international and Ukrainians by nationality) are coming out on a wave of feds and in an open bazaar The boys were told - you don’t crawl, little scams or knees are paid for you cups shot, but for your officers and ensigns pay well
                  1. rolik
                    rolik 2 June 2013 14: 03 New
                    +2
                    [quote = O_RUS] it seems you can call you adequate .. [/ quote
                    These adequate ??? They will become adequate when finally everything asks ... t, not for long. And they will come to us to beg for something. But what about Grozny, yes it was. Then corrected in the presence of normal command. But it was with us. And they still have everything ahead. Even the Tatars in Crimea did not show themselves, and the neighbors in the form of Romania, Turkey, are carefully looking at them. And when in the Square flashes, and it will be necessary. Let's look at news releases with interest)))))
                  2. roma2
                    roma2 2 June 2013 18: 19 New
                    -7
                    And who sent them there then ?? Are we something ?? Is it in my opinion that you have leaped into imperialistic feelings that territory is small? And what is the result? Chechens raped you forcing you to their knees forcing you to pay, how much money do you have from the budget to Chechnya then? Enough for the development of a dozen Russian regions.
                    1. O_RUS
                      O_RUS 2 June 2013 20: 18 New
                      +5
                      Quote: roma2
                      Is it in my opinion that you have leaped into imperialistic feelings that territory is small?


                      open the geographical atlas of 80's ... you will see what nonsense you are carrying
            2. svp67
              svp67 1 June 2013 13: 13 New
              +8
              Quote: roial
              I remember before the storming of the Terrible ALL your generals refused to command the group.
              Oh how, right ALL ... And you personally witnessed this?
              1. Rider
                Rider 1 June 2013 14: 10 New
                +6
                Well, it is true.
                even offered Gromov - refused.
                partly on this, the troops were composed of three groups, without general command and coordination.
                in the GS, no one wanted (or banned) to direct the operation from a single center.

                but this is a separate and very difficult topic.
                1. Yarbay
                  Yarbay 1 June 2013 16: 27 New
                  +5
                  Quote: Rider
                  partly on this, the troops were composed of three groups, without general command and coordination.
                  in the GS, no one wanted (or banned) to direct the operation from a single center.

                  General command was!
                  The minister personally commanded, but how competently this was done is another question!
                  1. Rider
                    Rider 1 June 2013 16: 40 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Yarbay
                    Personally commanded the Minister


                    there is no

                    the rook just afterwards took charge of the failure.

                    I (and not only) have many reasons for wanting this commander in chief is not the very 7 light post-mortem. but tried (partly) on the fact that in the spring of 95 he failed to persuade some leaders to limit the daily shooting of BC on the group.
                    In so many words, he said that Enali should be spent on the destruction of ONE spirit. WAGON cartridge / projectiles
                    then so be it.

                    and after so many years (and the same pile of materials I raised), I found out (for myself) that it was not he who was the bad guy in that tragedy.

                    therefore, God is his judge.
                2. old man54
                  old man54 1 June 2013 21: 02 New
                  +3
                  Well, I think that many generals refused because we saw perfectly well that the operation was not prepared at all, on the military parade of 9 on May 9, and then it is better prepared annually. It was typical of us, Slavs, hats, Pasha "Mercedes" (Grachev) decided to enter Grozny in columns, without careful preliminary reconnaissance and expulsion of preliminary sabotage and assault cover groups on the route. Here is the result! Neither the army nor the power of Russia was ready for a civil war then! And no one was punished for the inept leadership and the death of thousands of soldiers and officers, even the Minister of the Armed Forces.
                  1. Yarbay
                    Yarbay 1 June 2013 21: 09 New
                    +2
                    Quote: old man54
                    Well, I think that many generals refused because we saw perfectly well that the operation was not prepared at all, on the military parade of 9 on May 9, and then it is better prepared annually.

                    Totally agree!
                    Understand the general state of the army, which by that time had been fundamentally destroyed!
          2. roma2
            roma2 2 June 2013 18: 09 New
            -2
            Are you stronger? That YOU nobody in anything puts. In the last 20 years, you have surrendered all your partners and allies. All you can do is express your own inconvenience. That lied the West to YOU ​​and YOUR opinion.
        2. svp67
          svp67 1 June 2013 13: 15 New
          +1
          Quote: roial
          Right, I would be ashamed to blow the whole world like this MO, this pretty (at that time) woman rolled
          Well, that does not do in favor of "the right person." And honestly, by signing a "gas contract", she fully repaid her debt to Russia ...
          1. roial
            1 June 2013 13: 24 New
            -4
            Oh, that brosse you, not so much run over there. That and not much then he and the right she always looked in the direction of the west. Although if the time was shared then yes.
            The gas problem is purely political.
            I pay for that gas a penny, that and businesses it is not much more expensive.
            1. svp67
              svp67 1 June 2013 13: 28 New
              +3
              Quote: roial
              Oh, that brosse you, not so much run over there. That and not much then he and the right she always looked in the direction of the west.

              Did I really say that the "right person" is she? I think this information was beneficial to another person ... And I’ve run into the bill - well, then Ukraine, as it’s now outraged by price and volume, means all the same наб run up ’...
              1. Corneli
                Corneli 1 June 2013 16: 46 New
                -2
                Quote: svp67
                .A has come into the account - well, then Ukraine, now indignant at price and volume, means all the same "has come" ...

                According to the "lucrative Ukraine contract", it came over for approx. 30 tysch cubic meters, and took 19) (But, under the contract we are obliged to pay for EVERYTHING! And resell it LOW !! And it’s absolutely “ridiculous” that no one will buy, for such a “brotherly price". Meaning to buy for 440 if the floor " gayEurope "pays 390? And Ukraine !!! Gets a DISCOUNT !!! 100 cu for 1 per cubic meter, that is, in fact, the price of 540 !!!)))
                As a result, thanks to our ghouls (and this is the most gentle thing I can think of (). "Bratskaya" Ukraine, pays ... How do you say the power of "brat"?)
                1. Rider
                  Rider 1 June 2013 16: 49 New
                  +7
                  Quote: Corneli
                  How do you say the power of "brother"?)


                  Well, as if trying to sit on two chairs - obliges.
                  if it does not reach over the head. drive in through the way.
                  1. Corneli
                    Corneli 1 June 2013 17: 05 New
                    -4
                    Quote: Rider
                    the attempt to sit on two chairs is obligatory.
                    if it does not reach over the head. drive through

                    But to put it differently: A relative (or friend) pays more!) And if you can't stand up for yourself, then they’re holding the flag ... and denyushka to me!) (Do you know who I mean?) And yes ... with (“not completely fraudulent gayUropa” didn’t give up such a number! (There the antimonopoly committee immediately and all that ... right there discounts ... So “bros”), “benefactors-breadwinners” BABLO WINNING EVIL?))
                    P.S. Please read the different news ... not only your "zomboyaschik"! (The EU gay, so beloved by Russia, snapped his fingers and the price immediately dropped (And the enemies, and the fascists, and the gays, and finally ... and by the way, terrible dependent on Russian gas !!! But "Bratskaya" Ukraine ... guess what)))
                    1. Rider
                      Rider 1 June 2013 17: 42 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Corneli
                      (you know who I mean?)


                      Own "about whom" we are now discussing
                      so sho pay you "bratuhi" to stop.
                      Now, just before your arrival, Kaa came to try to get a pipe at Euro prices.
                      but not yet drove
                      for no one except Russia, she and the ... uh, the nose is not needed.
                      and Kaa said, like this is a market, offer someone else.

                      And about the click from the EU, it is the same market if someone delivers cheaper. then Gazprom is forced to reduce prices.
                      Yes, and prices have decreased by how much?
                      10%

                      Quote: Corneli
                      But "Bratskaya" Ukraine ... guess what


                      but the "bratskaya" Ukraine, even if it is looking for a cheaper place, the market is still the same.
                      that's just not nada nod to re-export where you pump Russian gas only from the west.

                      and by the way. here you have European integration,
                      So get ready to pay for a heated kettle at European prices.
                      Europe now you kum brother and matchmaker.
                      1. Corneli
                        Corneli 1 June 2013 18: 53 New
                        0
                        Quote: Rider
                        Own "about whom" we are now discussing
                        so sho pay you "bratuhi" to stop.
                        Now, just before your arrival, Kaa came to try to get a pipe at Euro prices.
                        but not yet drove
                        for no one except Russia, she and the ... uh, the nose is not needed.
                        and Kaa said, like this is a market, offer someone else.

                        So unless I argue? "Bratuha"?))) This is what the conversation is ... who is there and how to treat)
                        Quote: Rider
                        And about the click from the EU, it is the same market if someone delivers cheaper. then Gazprom is forced to reduce prices.
                        Yes, and prices have decreased by how much?
                        10%

                        I can not)))) That is, I wanted, your ENEMIES from NATO !!! (MB, you accidentally forgot who they are? No, not "brothers" but specifically enemies!!! And Russia immediately op ... 10% skidochka! (This is if it is your way) And the "brothers" Ukrainians ... well ... I think everyone will understand in their own way)
                        P.S. And yes ... whoever needs to write schA) Although in the next branch, Hungarians are trying to migrate Mig-29, for ridiculous money, I can only imagine that Schaub used to write our "brothers" if Ukraine tried to crank it out) )))
                        Quote: Rider
                        but the "bratskaya" Ukraine, even if it is looking for a cheaper place, the market is still the same.
                        that's just not nada nod to re-export where you pump Russian gas only from the west.
                        and by the way. here you have European integration,
                        So get ready to pay for a heated kettle at European prices.
                        Europe now you kum brother and matchmaker

                        Do not worry you so ... will pay ... will not go anywhere) And yes, at the moment it is more profitable to repurchase from the same Russian-loved Germans !!! belay Than u "bratuh"! belay But you did it yourself ... nefig to translate arrows into Ukraine) And “European Integration” did NOT light up and DO NOT LIGHT, it’s understandable to any a clever person who has read the latest 15 years news! Some Russian commentators of this site are supposedly “incomprehensible”, or they don’t want to “understand” point-blank)
                        Here is the word ches ... with Yusche, the crypto boom, the "prieststvo" of the EU and NATO by all available and neochen ways, and the welfare of the EU, Ukraine was sent ... And SCHA ,,, FRIEND !!! When there is CRISIS everywhere !!! FULL P ... !!! EU, almost rozvalivaetsya !!! SUDDENLY! belay They will take Ukraine (here before, when everything was jammed ... strained! But they will accept us right now !!!))) PPC! What can be used? (smoke? prick?) So at least for a moment, think about it seriously?
                      2. Rider
                        Rider 1 June 2013 19: 06 New
                        +2
                        Here I read your verses, uh appenient, and a strange impression is created that not everything is alright with logical thinking.

                        Quote: Corneli
                        This is what the conversation is about ... who is there and how to treat

                        Well, yes, the freebie is over.
                        Quote: Corneli
                        That is, I wanted, your ENEMIES

                        I repeat once again - this is the market.
                        if the goods are expensive, they do not take it.
                        it means it is necessary to reduce the price or izdrzhki.
                        Quote: Corneli
                        Do not worry you so ... will pay ... not going anywhere)

                        then why boil?
                        Quote: Corneli
                        And yes, at the moment it is more profitable to re-procure from the same Russian-beloved Germans !!

                        Yes, I have three hands for!
                        Do not you just announce the price of reverse gas prices?
                        and you know. vague suspicions creep in that it’s not so that it’s too cheap that you don’t lower your gas price
                        Quote: Corneli
                        And "European Integration" has not LIGHTED to us and DOESN'T LIGHT, it is clear to any intelligent person who has read the news over the past 15 years!


                        he said that you have something wrong.
                        you look at the news?
                        you (Ukraine) are given a specific requirement, and your guarantor has pledged to fulfill them.
                        in particular, the sale of gas OUTSTANDS at DOMESTIC prices
                        and from this it follows that your principal will raise domestic prices to world prices.

                        And SCHA ,, ,, Suddenly !!! When there is CRISIS everywhere !!! FULL P ... !!! EU, almost rozvalivaetsya !!! SUDDENLY! belay will take Ukraine

                        she will not accept nada so nervous.
                        it’s just UNFIXABLE CONDITIONS OF EUROMORCLE. set for the sole purpose as much as possible to part you and us.

                        good luck.

                      3. Rider
                        Rider 1 June 2013 19: 11 New
                        +5
                        Well, pozhalsta

                      4. Corneli
                        Corneli 1 June 2013 20: 03 New
                        -4
                        Quote: Rider
                        Well, yes, the freebie is over.

                        Yeah, Godiokv that way at least 10 back) Did you notice the current?)
                        Quote: Rider
                        I repeat once again - this is the market.
                        if the goods are expensive, they do not take it.
                        it means it is necessary to reduce the price or izdrzhki.

                        You do not repeat the "mantra", in addition to allegedly "market costs" there are also "political circumstances!"
                      5. Rider
                        Rider 1 June 2013 21: 23 New
                        +4
                        Quote: Corneli
                        Yeah, Godiokv that way at least 10 back) Did you notice the current?)


                        I think only now you noticed it, because crying about the "unfair price"

                        Quote: Corneli
                        In addition to the alleged "market costs" there are also "political circumstances!"


                        certainly there is, from that you pay as much as ordered.

                        and by the way, how do you like the video?
                        Get ready for European integration.
                        wink
                      6. Kars
                        Kars 1 June 2013 21: 30 New
                        +3
                        Quote: Rider
                        I think only now you noticed it, because crying about the "unfair price"


                        No, it just seems to you that there was no freebie at all since the collapse. The low price for gas was compensated by a low price for transit. And so on.
                      7. Corneli
                        Corneli 1 June 2013 21: 49 New
                        -3
                        I just tried to answer ... on all points .. and I know (like neither mats nor insults ... to get shorter ()
                    2. Corneli
                      Corneli 2 June 2013 00: 28 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Rider
                      certainly there is, from that you pay as much as ordered.
                      and by the way, how do you like the video?
                      Get ready for European integration.

                      No way ... I wrote below ... answered all your points, and cut down the site (I broke off writing everything again (((
                      But I will answer about the video: Try to find the same news, only with the "eyes" of CNN or in Ukrainian. 5 channel .... SURE the result will shock you! (everything will be exactly the opposite)
                      P.S. Ches word, like adults, do you seriously think that such an "adequate transfer" with redone-torn "words" out of context will impress me?) I’m not 10 years old) I, if I hear (or see) the "strange" news, I try to double-check it .... and I wish you the same ... maybe you’ll stop carrying on such "hypno-toads")
            2. Pilat2009
              Pilat2009 2 June 2013 17: 52 New
              +2
              Quote: Rider
              the pipe at Euro prices tried to sniff.

              It was necessary to sell while there was a demand, but now it is necessary to modernize it. Well, I wouldn’t have taken the place of Gazprom, there it’s necessary to invest tuyev huchu.
              Yes, you do not worry, we also entered the WTO and soon we will lose our industry and CX
      2. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 1 June 2013 19: 23 New
        +8
        Quote: Corneli
        And resell LOW !! And it is absolutely “ridiculous” that no one will buy for such a “brotherly price”. Sense of buying for 440 if the floor of “geyEurope” pays 390? And Ukraine !!! Gets a DISCOUNT !!! 100 cu for 1 to cubic meters, that is, in fact, the price of 540 !!!)))

        When I hear from Ukraine that they buy gas more expensively than we sell to Europe, the question always arises: why does Ukraine buy gas from Russia, and not in Europe, where is it cheaper? After all, from Europe, even the pipe does not need to be pulled: take it from the main line, and the calculation with Europe, at their low prices.
        Your ministers are aware that it is more profitable to buy where it is cheaper?
        1. Corneli
          Corneli 1 June 2013 20: 39 New
          -1
          Quote: Bad_gr
          When I hear from Ukraine that they buy gas more expensively than we sell to Europe, the question always arises: why does Ukraine buy gas from Russia, and not in Europe, where is it cheaper? After all, from Europe, even the pipe does not need to be pulled: take it from the main line, and the calculation with Europe, at their low prices.
          Your ministers are aware that it is more profitable to buy where it is cheaper?

          Bought) at least last year ... BUT! there are after all such things as contracts) And Gazprom, to put it mildly, got seriously enraged))))
          P.S. Do you generally see and read the news of your "zomboyaschik"? On the same site, for example, it was discussed ... kapets (
          1. Bad_gr
            Bad_gr 1 June 2013 21: 22 New
            +3
            Quote: Corneli
            P.S. Do you generally see and read the news of your "zomboyaschik"? On the same site, for example, it was discussed ... kapets (

            I practically don’t watch TV. On the Internet I read mostly technical topics. But you want-not-want, and stumble upon this political noodle. As here, in the subject of armored vehicles.
            1. Corneli
              Corneli 1 June 2013 21: 55 New
              -2
              Quote: Bad_gr
              I practically don’t watch TV. On the Internet I read mostly technical topics. But you want-not-want, and stumble upon this political noodle. As here, in the subject of armored vehicles.

              Honestly ... I HATE her (noodles) !!! I asked to close ANY news from Ukraine altogether ... Read the "slag" (I’m not about you ... and not all of them ... but there is a lot of it, about and without, the main thing is that the word UKRAINE was just tired ( I myself registered on this site as a reader of advanced "know-how" in military technology ... At that time, I was not aware that there are SO large amount of "Ukraine-love"
  3. Corneli
    Corneli 1 June 2013 13: 37 New
    +1
    Quote: roial
    I pay for that gas a penny, that and businesses it is not much more expensive.

    Ranitsu pays the budget. And there to suck what "not a penny" out. And you fill the budget, including taxes .... So all the same, you (and me as well) pay, just differently, and the money that goes to this "difference" (and there lardov to Baku's 10 year will come) could be spent on something else.
    1. Truffoff
      Truffoff 1 June 2013 13: 42 New
      0
      And I don't have gas in Siberia at all !! And if the state is hell what state will I pay extra for it from the budget. Yes, and spit.
      What do you always whine.
  4. pensioner
    pensioner 1 June 2013 15: 20 New
    +1
    Quote: roial
    I pay for that gas penny,


    Let's fix the problem. Soon. Stock up dung.
    1. pensioner
      pensioner 1 June 2013 16: 07 New
      +2
      I feel: the topic is sick - the dung ends. Well then drown with lard. Polish. Che expensive? But everything is brotherly ...
  • Corneli
    Corneli 1 June 2013 19: 43 New
    -2
    Quote: svp67
    Well, that does not do in favor of "the right person." And honestly, by signing a "gas contract", she fully repaid her debt to Russia ...

    Here you are ... the person said everything correctly ... (
  • Yarbay
    Yarbay 1 June 2013 16: 25 New
    +4
    Quote: roial
    Well, well.
    First you find out what these contracts were for, who gave guarantees and did he have the right to do so ??

    I did not understand!
    If these treaties did not have the right to sign the prime minister and who gave guarantees did not have this right, then why are the treaties not canceled ???
    It's not serious !!
    1. roial
      1 June 2013 16: 38 New
      -4
      And what is there to understand, our Prime Minister Pasha Lazarenko gave state guarantees under a contract of a private company with your Defense Ministry, for which he did not have any right. But since kickbacks were not childish, the contract was signed sawed and forgotten. What can I say if in a recent scandal in your MO, a guarantee of tender was provided with a fake bank guarantee for 1 billion rubles.
    2. Corneli
      Corneli 1 June 2013 17: 18 New
      -3
      Quote: Yarbay
      I did not understand!
      If these treaties did not have the right to sign the prime minister and who gave guarantees did not have this right, then why are the treaties not canceled ???
      It's not serious !!

      MMM ... and this is not a pyramid!) To cancel the contract ... these are not even "iron" eggs! (This is really "space" alloys !!! Head of Gazprom (HE is the head of Russia) SO MANY BUBLA WILL NOT GIVE !!! And it is logical! Themselves demanded (GR. Yushchenko, with its unfair gas prices and cements in ..opa USA. GR. YuVT, it seems like INTERPOL, which is being "searched for", at the request of the machinations with Russia ... And here. ... Voila ... "fraternal agreement" !!!) In the EU, it is logical that such "fraternity" was immediately sent to "..yuh" (although they are not "brothers" at all, but they can probably send it) And Ukraine. .. stupidly tolerates ... m The same "tolerance" (In short, this is really a long and sad explanation of (Especially I do not want to injure the psyche of Russians (and still they will not believe)))
      P.S. Putin-handsome! Our-no! (
      1. Yarbay
        Yarbay 1 June 2013 21: 15 New
        +1
        Quote: roial
        And what is there to understand, our Prime Minister Pasha Lazarenko gave state guarantees under a contract of a private company with your Defense Ministry, for which he did not have any right.

        My MO has nothing to do with your prime minister or to those contracts!
        If they are not laws, they must be repealed!
        If you do not cancel, then nod at others, but sort it out for yourself!

        Quote: Corneli
        To cancel the contract.

        You just have to prove that they are illegal !!
        If by proving that this is not the law, your authorities continue to follow, then they commit such lawlessness!
        And if you do not annul, then why nod toward Russia ??
        In this case, they themselves are to blame, Russia is wrong!
        1. Corneli
          Corneli 1 June 2013 21: 24 New
          -2
          Quote: Yarbay
          You just have to prove that they are illegal !!
          If by proving that this is not the law, your authorities continue to follow, then they commit such lawlessness!
          And if you do not annul, then why nod toward Russia ??
          In this case, they themselves are to blame, Russia is

          Try, to begin with, to really get into all of this many years of kidalovo (there they threw Russia and Ukraine ... and all several times ... I mean ordinary citizens), in short, an extremely muddy-tangled story, for those who somehow not in the know initially ... Then write about "lawlessness". Otherwise ... here I, for example, do not rummage in nuclear submarines ... but theoretically, I can arrange a dispute with those who designed them on this site ... an example is clear, I hope?
          1. Yarbay
            Yarbay 2 June 2013 00: 12 New
            +2
            Quote: Corneli
            Try, to begin with, to really get into all of this many years of kidalovo (there they threw Russia and Ukraine ... and all several times ... I mean ordinary citizens), in short, an extremely muddy-tangled story, for those who somehow not in the know initially ... Then write about "lawlessness". Otherwise ... here I, for example, do not rummage in nuclear submarines ... but theoretically, I can arrange a dispute with those who designed them on this site ... an example is clear, I hope?

            Legally, I am well educated, if the transaction is illegal, then nothing prevents your country from canceling it !! And all other conversations are frivolous and self-justifying!
            1. Corneli
              Corneli 2 June 2013 00: 35 New
              -2
              Quote: Yarbay
              Legally, I am well educated, if the transaction is illegal, then nothing prevents your country from canceling it !! And all other conversations are frivolous and self-justifying!

              Pff, for the first time you hear that the "big" policy is stepping on the throat of law? Or do you crave many examples of when "lawyers" quietly crawl into a corner, because they are hurt by "global" interests?
              1. Yarbay
                Yarbay 2 June 2013 00: 39 New
                +2
                Quote: Corneli
                Pff, for the first time you hear that the "big" policy is stepping on the throat of law? Or do you crave many examples of when "lawyers" quietly crawl into a corner, because they are hurt by "global" interests?

                I have a feeling that you are not reading me, but talking to yourself !!
                That was not, if your leaders do not annul the contract, then it is either LEGAL or your leaders are to blame first !! No need to nod towards the other country!
                That's all!
                Before answering me, I beg you to read carefully what I’m writing about!
                Yours!
                1. Corneli
                  Corneli 2 June 2013 02: 26 New
                  +1
                  [/ Quote]
                  I have a feeling that you are not reading me, but talking to yourself !!
                  That was not, if your leaders do not annul the contract, then it is either LEGAL or your leaders are to blame first !! No need to nod towards the other country!
                  That's all!
                  Before answering me, I beg you to read carefully what I’m writing about!
                  Regards! [/ Quote]
                  I read and carefully, as if to answer so that you understand correctly ... I will try ... You see, we have a kind of democracy, not a dictatorship (like the "immortal" Nazarbayev, Lukashenko or your Aliyevs), but different rulers who rely respectively, on a different electorate and different "patrons". From here and "throwing" in different directions (and by the way ... you DO NOT even PRESENT how many different contracts were canceled! () In general, this is where the "distrust" of the GDP grows (and he is like a "dictator", that is, a person leading a sufficiently concrete and consistent policy designed for a long term, because it’s a little bit “out of control” of our “democratic” extremes. Therefore, he chose the way, tritely “put the squeeze” on our power, and the “democratic” countries of the West act against it (because they don’t need Ukraine, an ally or part of Russia). the region, with its shifts, tritely beat everyone, and since they have neither Russia nor the West for the AUTHORITIES and INFLUENCE (already, they are bored with ... the Reds, tomorrow the Whites), then we have both alone and secondly. And here you can’t annul any agreements, just no one will! ”“ Legitimacy ”doesn’t seem to play a major role here, (was the“ no-fly zone ”legal in Libya?) the role is bare power and concrete the desires of the two camps.
                  If something is not clear, write, I will try to explain the details (
            2. Pilat2009
              Pilat2009 2 June 2013 21: 32 New
              -1
              Quote: Yarbay
              if the deal is illegal

              The deal can be illegal only if the prime minister was illegal. Just at that time, the oil price was likely to be kosher and, accordingly, the gas price too. The growth in oil prices could not be predicted and now all they have to do is squeeze
              1. roial
                2 June 2013 23: 45 New
                -2
                Each official has the right to sign certain documents, the Prime Minister may NOT give guarantees on behalf of the country for a private company.
        2. roial
          1 June 2013 21: 57 New
          -7
          Not where it is? that government money pockmarked private shop from Ukraine? For us, why should these contracts be annulled? Millions of bucks arrived in the country, just like that, and that we don’t need shouting guards ?? You prokinili as l .. in and you wiped. Calm down and prepare more money.
  • MG42
    MG42 2 June 2013 21: 02 New
    +2
    The Ukrainian government has begun to pay the Defense Ministry debt of the corporation "United Energy Systems of Ukraine", which was previously headed by former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko.
    This was announced at a briefing by Attorney General Viktor Pshonka, writes RIA Novosti.
    “The payment has already begun. 15 million hryvnia (7,5 million dollars) has already been paid to Russia,” Pshonka said.
    According to investigators, the corporation’s debt to the Russian defense ministry was formed in the second half of the 1990s, when it was headed by Yulia Tymoshenko. The prosecutor's office believes that it has organized tax evasion of almost 1,3 million dollars and committed a forgery. In addition, law enforcement agencies believe that she was trying to “hang up” the debt of the Unified Energy Systems of Ukraine in the amount of 405,5 million dollars to the Russian Ministry of Defense for the state budget.
    Earlier, Glavred reported that today, on January 18, a meeting of the Kiev district court of Kharkiv took place in the case of the EESU, to which Yulia Tymoshenko refused to come. In this regard, the Kharkov court postponed the hearing of the criminal case of Tymoshenko regarding the EESU corporation to February 12.

    Recall that in October 2011, the SBU filed a criminal case against former Prime Minister Tymoshenko for transferring the debts of the EESU corporation to the budget of Ukraine.

    Tymoshenko “is accused of organizing tax evasion for a total of more than 4,7 million UAH, plundering and attempting to plunder budget funds by illegally reimbursing more than 25 million UAH of value-added tax, forgery and evasion from paying 681 thousand of income tax. The method of plundering the budget funds was the implementation by the UESU corporation of a financial scheme for concealing foreign exchange earnings using controlled offshore companies. ”
    photo: telegraf.dn.ua
  • phantom359
    phantom359 3 June 2013 00: 12 New
    +1
    Not at all pretty.
  • roma2
    roma2 2 June 2013 18: 06 New
    -1
    Who will shake out the company that has had your MO already 15 has not existed for years.
  • svp67
    svp67 1 June 2013 09: 55 New
    +7
    In terms of armor, the Ukrainian tank not only greatly exceeds the T-90, equipped with a cast turret, but also new T-90, which began to equip with a welded turret. Steel with ESR, from which the tower of the Oplot tank is made, provides an increase in durability on 10-15 percent compared to a welded turret made of medium-strength armor steel used on T-90С tanks that were delivered to India

    This is all calculated data. In contrast to Russia, Ukraine is “embarrassed” to show the results of the bombardment of its “miracle tank” or maybe it didn’t conduct them at all?
    An article from the category ADVERTISEMENT.
    Armored vehicles of Ukraine: results, potential, prospects ...

    "Results" - the main one is that, it’s just a miracle that it still exists ...
    "Potential" is, but if you keep the current situation, everything will decrease and decrease ..
    "Prospects" are more than vague, since the buyer, apart from "high qualities", is also interested in volumes, with deadlines, most likely the main focus will be the modernization of the old Soviet technology ...
    1. Kars
      Kars 1 June 2013 10: 02 New
      +7
      Quote: svp67
      Unlike Russia, Ukraine

      And what did you show? Photos of shot tanks? Or where did I miss the plates with reports and millimeters? At the same time, there are doubts about the availability of modern Western tank guns and ammunition for Russia, while we have joint projects with Switzerland on installation and production 120 mm NATO standard guns.

      Think of such a photo can draw competent conclusions?
      1. svp67
        svp67 1 June 2013 10: 07 New
        +7
        Quote: Kars
        Think of such a photo can draw competent conclusions?

        You can ... The main one is that something is checked in practice.

        Quote: Kars
        while we have joint projects with Switzerland for the installation and production of 120 mm NATO standard guns.

        Congratulations. But do you really think that these samples are missing from us?
        1. Kars
          Kars 1 June 2013 10: 16 New
          +2
          Quote: svp67
          You can ... The main one is that something is checked in practice.

          It is impossible, for it can only be said that the landfill is protected by conscripts and poorly comply with security measures and secrecy ..
          Quote: svp67
          Congratulations. But do you really think that these samples are missing from us?

          I think. It can even be seen from the reports on the test of a DZ, when the western BPS was imitated by a metal pin welded to the BPS Mango.
          1. svp67
            svp67 1 June 2013 10: 29 New
            0
            Quote: Kars
            It is impossible, for it can only be said that the landfill is protected by conscripts and poorly comply with security measures and secrecy ..

            As far as I know, things are no better with you ...

            Quote: Kars
            I think. It can even be seen from the reports on the test of a DZ, when the western BPS was imitated by a metal pin welded to the BPS Mango.
            Yes, what do you say ... This is what the "conscripts" told you too? Well, I will not dissuade you, I think for many real clashes will become a very unpleasant discovery ... And by and large, we have not yet developed anything new, we still use the designs of the USSR and therefore know very well who is capable of anything. But in the field of tank building everything will change soon and, alas, not in favor of Ukraine ...
            1. Kars
              Kars 1 June 2013 11: 27 New
              +1
              Quote: svp67
              As far as I know, things are no better with you.

              Find photos of our research site in Kharkov, we'll see.
              Quote: svp67
              Yes, what do you say ... This is what the "conscripts" told you too?

              Yes, just no, it was the developers of armor Relic and told from the Research Institute of Steel.
              Quote: svp67
              and for a long time there are developments with higher rates ..

              Of course they have, only nobody sees them except Khlopotov, as does Lead in the troops.

              The picture is from the developers Relikta, so all the questions to them.
              1. svp67
                svp67 1 June 2013 11: 42 New
                +2
                Quote: Kars
                Find photos of our research site in Kharkov, we'll see.

                I know that your training ground, at one time on foot and on the “tracks” it walked around well. It is located not far from Chuguev, in the area of ​​Malinovka and Bashkirovka villages ... But even then, during the Soviet era, it was much inferior to the Ural "Prospector", honestly, I do not think that during the time of independence, something has changed for the better ...
                1. Kars
                  Kars 1 June 2013 11: 50 New
                  +1
                  But the photo is certainly not

                  1. svp67
                    svp67 1 June 2013 12: 08 New
                    +2
                    [quote = Kars] But no photo at all

                    An interesting video, about our KAZ "Arena" there are a lot of videos, in particular, and such.


                    In the video you proposed, the result of the “interception” of PG-7вр was very interesting, which itself wished to “bury it” in the ground, but “honestly” was recorded at the expense of “Barrier”. Do they show this video to customers? Then I am not surprised that the buyers are not thick ...
                    1. Kars
                      Kars 1 June 2013 12: 44 New
                      +1
                      Quote: svp67
                      Ro our KAZ "Arena" there are many kind

                      What, what is this, is already Soviet, and has never been accepted for service. As for the barrier, and Pg, then you have a very special vision. From the machine into the earth to get and so on.

                      1. svp67
                        svp67 1 June 2013 12: 56 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Kars
                        From the machine to the ground to get and so on.
                        You know at one time had to look through a lot of different materials, so I already know where and how to look. And that would not be unfounded themselves look at the moment of flight and undermining of the PG7vr. In the same place, everything is perfectly visible - the flight, the moment when the ground gas contacts the ground and the explosion, in which a “heap” of dust appears from the beginning, and then a flash, which indicates that the explosion was “ground”, the rest of the explosions start with a flash ...
                      2. Kars
                        Kars 1 June 2013 13: 04 New
                        +1
                        No, wildly apologize but you have something wrong, or you confuse the explosion of a protective element.
                      3. svp67
                        svp67 1 June 2013 13: 21 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Kars
                        No, wildly apologize but you have something wrong, or you confuse the explosion of a protective element.
                        Especially the "fountain" of the earth before the explosion can not be confused with anything ...
                      4. Kars
                        Kars 1 June 2013 13: 26 New
                        +1
                        Quote: svp67
                        Especially the "fountain" of the earth just before the explosion cannot be confused with anything ..

                        what seconds?
                      5. svp67
                        svp67 1 June 2013 15: 16 New
                        +3
                        Quote: Kars
                        what seconds?

                        In between 2.33-2.34 ...
                      6. Kars
                        Kars 1 June 2013 17: 25 New
                        +1
                        __________ I agree, I overlooked it - but there is a whole grenade on the slow-motion camera. It looks like a ricketh off the ground, or a video of another launch. What by the way does not affect the rest of the launches.
    2. svp67
      svp67 1 June 2013 11: 50 New
      +1
      Quote: Kars
      Yes, just no, it was the developers of armor Relic and told from the Institute of Steel

      Chesto - many specialists and I am their supporter, believe that the DZ is a dead-end road, which is very dangerous, both for the tank itself and for its troops. There are solutions based on the properties of new materials that can be derived from the “dead end” of the “DZ”
      1. Kars
        Kars 1 June 2013 12: 01 New
        +2
        Quote: svp67
        Esto - many specialists and I, their supporter, believe that DZ is a dead end road


        I personally do not think so.
        Quote: svp67
        There are solutions based on the properties of new materials that can be derived from the “dead end” of the “DZ”

        At the moment and the next years 20 no such solutions.

        It is more dangerous for their troops to lose their tanks. Multi-layer defenses are a solution.
        KAZ --- DZ --- Basic multilayer bronzashita --- and shielding.
        1. svp67
          svp67 1 June 2013 12: 13 New
          0
          Quote: Kars
          At the moment and the next years 20 no such solutions.
          And at this, and even more so for the future, there are already such solutions, just for various reasons, mostly financial, they do not go beyond the framework of research ... But I repeat, they exist.
          Of the most "cheap", the replacement in your formula "DZ" on "spaced booking ..."
          1. Kars
            Kars 1 June 2013 12: 50 New
            +2
            Quote: svp67
            And at this, and even more so for the future, there are already such solutions, just for various reasons, mainly financial, they do not go beyond the research framework.

            Wow, what did I say about 20 years? And in fact they are not.
            Quote: svp67
            But once again, they exist.

            Somewhere in the same form, and there is a fusion reactor, and an electromagnetic gun, and so on.
            Quote: svp67
            Of the most "cheap", the replacement in your formula "DZ" on "spaced booking ..."

            The combination suits me perfectly.
            Quote: svp67
            oh there is the presence of almost half a ton of explosives on a tank

            Can unload more ammunition from the tank?
            Quote: svp67
            when triggered, there is a threat to the life of infantry interacting with this tank, and at a considerable distance

            Of course, when on the armor of a tank KOS explodes to the infantry that is near, well, nothing threatens. Even minus the tank.
            Quote: svp67
            You consider it quite acceptable

            Something neither in Grozny nor in Syria does not refuse to install a DZ if they have access to it, but you are not satisfied.
            1. svp67
              svp67 1 June 2013 12: 58 New
              0
              Quote: Kars
              Somewhere in the same form, and there is a dermo-nuclear reactor, and an electromagnetic gun, and so on.

              Well, at least the latter was in the prototypes ...
            2. Kars
              Kars 1 June 2013 13: 06 New
              +2
              Quote: svp67
              Well, at least the latter was in the prototypes ...

              From the ordinary to the practice, maybe more 20 years go by.
              Quote: svp67
              Quite, especially since its many modern options ...

              and?
              Quote: svp67
              It is one thing for explosives covered with armor, quite another DZ - fragments of the elements of its operation are very dangerous for manpower at a distance of several tens of meters ...

              You know, the battlefield is generally a dangerous thing, and this argument of yours is not going anywhere. At a level like the Soviet generals, they denied the DZ, but the Jews of Blazer did not use it.
            3. svp67
              svp67 1 June 2013 13: 32 New
              -1
              Quote: Kars
              You know, the battlefield is generally a dangerous thing, and this argument of yours is not going anywhere. At a level like the Soviet generals, they denied the DZ, but the Jews of Blazer did not use it.
              And just as successfully then they refused it ... Do you think that just like that?
            4. Kars
              Kars 1 June 2013 13: 46 New
              +1
              When did they refuse it? In which year?
              At the same time, KAZ Trophy was also made.
            5. svp67
              svp67 1 June 2013 18: 48 New
              0
              Quote: Kars
              When did they refuse it? In which year?
              At the same time, KAZ Trophy was also made.



              A special team of specialists, led by Major General Israel Tal, the designer of the Merkava tank, developed a new special set of armor that can withstand all existing armor-piercing shells. Unlike the Blazer armor tiles, which should be replaced as soon as they work, the new additional reusable armor is attached to the tank's main armor.
            6. Kars
              Kars 1 June 2013 20: 05 New
              +1
              So what? On the merkava with this armor it was necessary to put KAZ.And the question remains in force - when Tsakhal removed the explosive type DZ from armament.

              Quote: svp67
              unlike the blazer tiles, which should be replaced as soon as they work,


              And not the same as you say about opsno.
            7. svp67
              svp67 1 June 2013 20: 13 New
              0
              Quote: Kars
              . And the question remains in force - when the Tsakhal removed the explosive-type DZ from service.

              As soon as the last M60 has been upgraded according to the program MAGAH-7 (Magach 7) Starting from 1980, the year ...
            8. Kars
              Kars 1 June 2013 20: 42 New
              +1
              Quote: svp67
              As soon as the last M60 has been upgraded according to the program MAGAH-7 (Magach 7) Starting from 1980, the year ...

              What is the year for 2000? I saw a blazer in Lebanon in 2001 or 2002.

              М60А3 USMC fought in the DZ in the Red Army in the Netherlands in 1991.

              And I do not bother you KAZ on the Merkava? With danger to the infantry?
            9. svp67
              svp67 1 June 2013 20: 48 New
              -1
              Quote: Kars
              with danger for infantry?

              ???? Then, too, "not bezpepechny for pikhoti" ...
              Found what will replace the DZ, will soon replace and CASA ...
            10. Kars
              Kars 1 June 2013 21: 16 New
              +1
              Quote: svp67
              ??? Then, too, "not bezpepechny for pikhoti" ...
              Found what will replace the DZ, will soon be replaced and KAZY

              All the same you are a funny person)))
              how do you feel about
              set DZ ARAT (Abrams Reactive Armor Tile)
  • svp67
    svp67 1 June 2013 12: 59 New
    -1
    Quote: Kars
    The combination suits me perfectly.

    Quite, especially since its many modern options ...
  • svp67
    svp67 1 June 2013 13: 01 New
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    Can unload more ammunition from the tank?

    It is one thing for explosives covered with armor, quite another DZ - fragments of the elements of its operation are very dangerous for manpower at a distance of several tens of meters ...
  • Bad_gr
    Bad_gr 1 June 2013 19: 45 New
    +3
    Quote: svp67
    It is one thing for explosives covered with armor, quite another DZ - fragments of the elements of its operation are very dangerous for manpower at a distance of several tens of meters ...

    We (Russia) have developed a filling for DZ not explosives. No details were given, it was said only what is already there. Whether adopted, I have no information.
  • svp67
    svp67 1 June 2013 13: 03 New
    0
    Quote: Kars
    Of course, when on the armor of a tank KOS explodes to the infantry that is near, well, nothing threatens. Even minus the tank.

    Not every KOS is capable of destroying a tank, but when it explodes on the armor of a tank, fragments fly a few meters, so the main diagram of the explosion is directed towards the tank ...
  • Kars
    Kars 1 June 2013 13: 30 New
    +1
    Quote: svp67
    Not every CBS is able to destroy a tank.

    Without DZ almost everyone, (though no chance to exclude)
    Quote: svp67
    and when it explodes on the armor of a tank, fragments fly several meters, so the main explosion diagram is directed towards the tank ...

    Would not say for explosive charge in 3-5 kg
    Quote: svp67
    But why not take advantage of what is

    But you say it is very dangerous. And you should not compare it with screening.
  • svp67
    svp67 1 June 2013 13: 36 New
    -1
    Quote: Kars
    Without DZ almost everyone, (though no chance to exclude)

    There are a lot of cases when the CS did not hit the armored vehicle, due to the fact that the conditions of its operation did not correspond to the optimum ... This is especially characteristic of PGs, which not infrequently went to the rebound ... even from the BMP armor.
  • Kars
    Kars 1 June 2013 13: 51 New
    +1
    Quote: svp67
    There are many cases where the COP did not hit the armored vehicle.

    Not so much. Even a little, otherwise what they are used, starting with panzerfaust.
    Quote: svp67
    G, who often went on the rebound ... even from the armor of the BMP.

    Most likely, they fired from a very close distance, and the grenade did not have time to get a whirlpool.
  • Rider
    Rider 1 June 2013 16: 34 New
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    Most likely, they fired from a very close distance, and the grenade did not have time to get a whirlpool.


    I agree, because many people who did not serve and did not face this fact do not know that for raising a grenade after a shot a distance of about 15-30 is needed (from the properties of the power supply)

    but there is another possibility that the grenade ricocheted from armor,
    This is the fault of the grenade fuse itself.
    rather often misfires (failure of shots) from various RPGs occurred due to the expiration of the BP or the storage conditions.

    In general, we always have, the beam rot in the warehouse. or recycle than give the soldiers to shoot.

    alas.
  • svp67
    svp67 1 June 2013 13: 06 New
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    Something neither in Grozny nor in Syria does not refuse to install a DZ if they have access to it, but you are not satisfied.
    But why not take advantage of what is. When it becomes hot and the sand with cement and the netting Chain-link is used, just to stay alive
  • svp67
    svp67 1 June 2013 12: 18 New
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    I personally do not think so.

    That is, the presence of almost half a ton of explosives on a tank, when triggered, there is a threat to the life of infantry interacting with this tank, and at a considerable distance ... You consider it quite acceptable
  • svp67
    svp67 1 June 2013 10: 37 New
    +2
    Quote: Kars
    This is even evident from the reports on the testing of the DZ, when the western BPS was imitated by a metal pin welded to the BPS Mango.

    BNP 3BM42 “Mango” (1986 year; 220 mm / 60 deg.) Along with it were already 3BM32 “Vant” (1985 year; 250 mm / 60 deg.), And after 3BM48 “Lead” XNNXX; 1991 degrees.) And for a long time there are developments with higher rates ...
  • Corneli
    Corneli 1 June 2013 16: 30 New
    -4
    Quote: svp67
    "Results" - the main one is that, it’s just a miracle that it still exists ...
    "Potential" is, but if you keep the current situation, everything will decrease and decrease ..
    "Prospects" are more than vague, since the buyer, apart from "high qualities", is also interested in volumes, with deadlines, most likely the main focus will be the modernization of the old Soviet technology ...

    You forgive me, but ...
    1. "Itogi" - excuse me, does that exist?) Ukraine?))) If yes, then the other former republics exist) AND ALMOST ALL, it’s far from the existence of Ukraine).
    2. "Potential" - on the whole you are right, everything is bad enough, but so far it is not hopeless! As a plant (KB) survived ... even in -90 (and there everything was much more sad)
    3. "Perspectives" - I will not argue, Ukraine, at least in the state in which it is (not the best partner! (((On the other hand, such an advanced "monster" like Russia (in terms of military equipment) does not have " "It seems like there is money, and KB, and the industry is evolving by leaps and bounds" ... BUT, do all orders fulfill on time? Or maybe YOU have some "minor" problems? (And this despite the fact that money, and the desire to just go nuts so much !!! (Especially when comparing with Ukraine!)
  • avt
    avt 1 June 2013 10: 10 New
    +6
    As a review - a good article, the author plus, bothered. And to be honest, a technical reluctance to translate a technical discussion into a general political discussion.
    1. bask
      bask 1 June 2013 10: 55 New
      +4
      Quote: avt
      And to translate the technical discussion into a general political discussion

      Without this, no where.
      You can say one thing. What Uraina, the plant im.Malysheva.
      That constantly modernizes, produces.
      BTR-T, made with aft entrance exit. ((We have on the BTR-T) it is not.
      Made BMP-T72 / 84.
      I repeat, an excellent platform to solve the issue of the removal of the BC of their combat compartment. ((Place the entire BC of the tank in the troop compartment))


      The plant works a lot on its own initiative. And constantly upgrading something, offering it to the market.
      For modernization both in Russia and in Ukraine the future.
      New armored vehicles are not developed ((frozen)). And until the 20-25, the troops will not have it.
  • Algor73
    Algor73 1 June 2013 10: 15 New
    +2
    Developments are good, and the prospects are not important. No need for your army (no money), and the customer is not in a hurry. T-72 has been shipped in large quantities to many countries. By recruitment and by practical identity, they buy T-90. T-64 was not exported, T-XNUMHUD, except Pakistan, as well. There is no practice of their exploitation abroad. Yes, and the tanks are expensive. Europe is slowly disarming, selling its old stocks cheaper than new ones. With the collapse of the USSR, tensions between Europe (NATO) and Eastern Europe (post-Soviet republics) have noticeably decreased, there is no need to build up the Armed Forces. And Asia has many different vectors in the choice of weapons, it’s hard to get into a niche, trying to improve their production. Yes, and China is actively promoting its (?) Development of BT.
    1. Alexey Prikazchikov
      Alexey Prikazchikov 1 June 2013 10: 29 New
      +3
      Well, see if we assume the law of hundreds of 64weap to modernize bulat. All 80s (if any) are easy to remove and store. From the remaining t 64 make bmpeshki well, and there all sorts of machines ensure that everything on one base was. This is not so expensive in principle and you can meet your budget. So look and make it to better times.
    2. Fofan
      Fofan 1 June 2013 11: 17 New
      +3
      Quote: Algor73

      There is only one conclusion - forget about the tank-building industry, like a bad dream.
      1. Alexey Prikazchikov
        Alexey Prikazchikov 1 June 2013 11: 21 New
        0
        There is only one conclusion - forget about the tank-building industry, like a bad dream.


        Not everything is so scary at their PC. Yes, and about xy s nasty s and r and ntsy. I think only one question will be selected in what form. And how many resources will have to drum in order to return the lost.
        1. builder
          builder 1 June 2013 13: 57 New
          +1
          ... the use of such words and derivatives as: crest, ...
          (see the website behavior rules)
          1. Rider
            Rider 1 June 2013 16: 46 New
            +1
            Quote: stroitel
            see rules of behavior on the site)


            I now do not understand how the centuries-old order of self-names within a group of fraternal peoples can offend anyone?
      2. roial
        1 June 2013 11: 57 New
        -1
        Well, you do not really flatter.
        Your tank building at the moment has not developed anything new at all, all that is a little modernized T-72, and a little more than T-90.
        About the BTR and the BMP in general I am silent about everything that you could put it on the Soviet BTR-80 gun module, and to cross the BMD-3 with the BMP-3 it turned out the BMD-4,
        and something new in armored you have ????
        In place of putting minus ones, give examples of how your armored vehicle is developing.
        1. roial
          1 June 2013 15: 54 New
          -3
          And in response, silence

          In Ukraine, produced
          Main battle tank BM PLOT


          Tank Yatagan


          Main battle tank T-80UD


          BTR-4


          BTR-3U


          Armored repair and recovery vehicle BREM Atlet


          Heavy BMP based on T-64
          1. roial
            1 June 2013 15: 56 New
            +1
            Carry out upgrades
            T-72 tanks:
            Upgrade Options
            T-XNUMHAG


            T-72MP


            T-72-120


            BMT-72 heavy infantry fighting vehicle


            BM tank Bulat


            T-64
            1. roial
              1 June 2013 15: 56 New
              +1
              T-62


              The T-55AG tank is a variant of the modernization of the T-54, T-55, T-62 and T-59 tanks.


              T-55M8A2 Typhoon


              BTR-50


              BTR-60, BTR-70, BTR-80


              BRDM-2


              MTLB
              1. roial
                1 June 2013 16: 06 New
                -10
                What about you?
                Model of the tank, created by the OCR "Armata".


                Model BTR "Boomerang"


                Model BMP "Kurganets
                1. svp67
                  svp67 1 June 2013 16: 18 New
                  +3
                  Quote: roial
                  What about you?

                  Yes, there is something to show
                  Omsk plant
                  -black Eagle
                  [img] http://sudden-strike.ru/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7868 [/ img]

                  -T80UM and M1 "Bars" with HYDROVOLUME transmission and T80UK

                  -T-55М6, which was several years ahead of the similar development of Kharkiv citizens

                  - T90 upgrade option
                  1. roial
                    1 June 2013 16: 21 New
                    -8
                    So show me ?? and that something does not believe in the great and mighty tankoprom of Russia.
                    Models glue cool)))
                    1. Truffoff
                      Truffoff 1 June 2013 16: 30 New
                      +3
                      Quote: roial
                      So show me ?? and that something does not believe in the great and mighty tankoprom of Russia.
                      Models glue cool)))

                      What did you do with your tanks to a nuclear power?
                      Build, invent, design as much as you want,
                      we'll take it later. laughing
                      1. roial
                        1 June 2013 16: 41 New
                        -7
                        So you still have model ICBMs? A good collection is obtained. laughing
                  2. roma2
                    roma2 2 June 2013 18: 30 New
                    -1
                    in unit copies and who do not need nafig
                2. svp67
                  svp67 1 June 2013 16: 37 New
                  +2
                  Quote: roial
                  What about you?

                  Omsk plant
                  - BTR-T again a few years earlier Kharkiv

                  N. Tagil plant
                  - about 187

                  - BMO-T

                  -BMPT "Terminator"

                  1. roial
                    1 June 2013 16: 45 New
                    -6
                    and all? sad for xnumx years then ??

                    BMPT didn’t accept 3 pieces from Kazakhs
                    BMO-T released no more than 10 pcs.
                    BTR-T was not accepted for service in the amount of several pieces
                    1. Marek Rozny
                      Marek Rozny 2 June 2013 01: 32 New
                      +2
                      Quote: roial
                      BMPT didn’t accept 3 pieces from Kazakhs

                      It was the first experimental batch. The car was tested, the customer was satisfied. Now we are talking about the alteration of a certain number of old tanks available in Kazakhstan in BMPT. Most likely, the Russians will be engaged in this as part of a joint venture in Kazakhstan.
                    2. roma2
                      roma2 2 June 2013 18: 32 New
                      -3
                      Yes, the Russian land is growing thin for geniuses. over the years, 20 has destroyed everything that has gotten from the union and is proud of the new modernized tank.
                3. Ziksura
                  Ziksura 1 June 2013 16: 42 New
                  +3
                  And is there even the slightest doubt that this is real in the metal and will be massive? If consider:
                  1. Developments are already being completed and are being done: "sensibly, with feeling and alignment, in order to have at least 30 modernization potential in the new technology".
                  2. A large customer is already there.
                  3. Funds for the purchase of large quantities are already budgeted.
                  4.Specialized for their production facilities are upgraded.
                  5.And finally: some of this "model line" is already in the metal, and something is already in the troops tongue
                4. svp67
                  svp67 1 June 2013 16: 54 New
                  0
                  Quote: roial
                  What about you?

                  something called T95 and still forbid to show

                  - Т90 and its upgrades from A to MS

                  By the way, how many Malyshevists released T84 and how many Tagil T90 did not compare? And you compare, and you will understand that Tagil is far ahead
                  - Recent upgrades to T72, the best of which is “Slingshot”

                  1. roial
                    1 June 2013 17: 01 New
                    -6
                    This is already a constructive conversation. There is a product. There is a photo.
                    Only the pathos is a little smaller.
                    And it looks a bit poor. Although the mallas are chic, have you already delivered them for export ?? and then look at them more than you can earn on real tanks.
                    1. svp67
                      svp67 1 June 2013 17: 25 New
                      +4
                      Quote: roial
                      Only the pathos is a little smaller.

                      And what do you see the pathos? The fact that the sales prospects abroad T90 higher than T84 different modifications. So this is a fact. And you have no option to change something. Your country receives most of its revenue from the tanks of still “Soviet” production, and that is T72 ... not modernized, by your specialists.
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 1 June 2013 17: 58 New
                        +1
                        Quote: svp67
                        The fact that the sales prospects abroad T90 higher than T84 different modifications.

                        This is very controversial - against the background of the cause of freezing of Almaty in the deliveries for India T-90, everything in Peru also calmed down - for some Spanish-speaking sources about the start of testing T-90.
                      2. svp67
                        svp67 1 June 2013 18: 01 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Kars
                        This is very controversial - against the background of the cause of freezing of Almaty.

                        Yes "Armatu" NOT WHO HAD FROZEN. Its development as it was and goes, for various reasons, the release of prototypes is suspended, but this will soon change ...
                      3. roial
                        1 June 2013 18: 12 New
                        -5
                        Yes, Kars, you're wrong, they have been developing eskiziki and modelki for a couple of years, soon they will get some money from us for gas and start developing wooden mockups.
                        Did you read the tale of the naked king? So they also do, do, and do at the exit ... laughing
                      4. Kars
                        Kars 1 June 2013 18: 20 New
                        +4
                        Quote: svp67
                        Yes "Armatu" NOT WHO HAD FROZEN. Its development as it was and goes, for various reasons, the release of prototypes is suspended, but this will soon change ...

                        Well, well, something more for me to the Mechanic of the present verits than you. He at least participated in the process.
                        And the news that at the exhibition in the fall in N. Tagil Almaty would not be like it fit into his words.
                      5. Bad_gr
                        Bad_gr 1 June 2013 20: 12 New
                        +3
                        Pictures on the alleged view of Almaty
                        http://rosinform.ru/photo/osnovnoy-tank-t-14--na-baze-tyazheloy-unifitsirovannoy
                        -platformy-armata / # slide-9
                      6. Alexander D.
                        Alexander D. 2 June 2013 12: 03 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        Pictures on the alleged view of Almaty
                        http://rosinform.ru/photo/osnovnoy-tank-t-14--na-baze-tyazheloy-unifitsirovannoy


                        -platformy-armata / # slide-9

                        I wonder how they are going to balance the tower with the 6-meter trunk ??? Then someone relatively recently shouted that the tower is unbalanced on the Oplot, you do not remember who?
                        By the way, the ejector of powder gases is not visible.
                      7. Bad_gr
                        Bad_gr 2 June 2013 17: 52 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Alexander D.
                        I wonder how they are going to balance the tower with the 6-meter trunk ???

                        Even if they do not balance it at all, this tower will turn out to be more balanced than that of Teshek, since it does not have a powerful reservation in front of the tower (it’s not there: the sight will not protect, but the crew is not there)
                        Quote: Alexander D.
                        Then someone relatively recently shouted that the tower is unbalanced on the Oplot, you do not remember who?

                        I did not even read about it, so there is nothing to remember.
                        Quote: Alexander D.
                        By the way, the ejector of powder gases is not visible.

                        And he is not required there: the crew sits in the nose, in an armored partition separated from the crew compartment, a compartment. Powder gases to them are unlikely to fall. Although it is possible that there pneumatic blow gun as in French Leclerc.
                        But on 100% I would not believe these pictures: they didn’t remove the heading "secretly" from the appearance of this object, so although they consulted with Khlopotov, he clearly could not say anything, which means there must be mistakes in the picture.
                        I think that the chassis of Almaty has to be 7-mi katkovy, and not 6-ti, because at the 195 objects (and 640) they came to 7-mi katkovom. Further, the right half of the tower should not be empty. At least, a machine gun paired with a gun should stand there.
                        The transmission, clearly, hydro-volume with an X-shaped engine (passed the full cycle of tests on the 195 object, and there is no sense to change it for another).
            2. Corneli
              Corneli 1 June 2013 17: 29 New
              +1
              Quote: roial
              Only the pathos is a little smaller.

              Quote: roial
              Although mollyki chic

              It is that without pathos, you are welcome! Try to respect yourself, for a start, and not be like banal trolls! (
            3. Patton5
              Patton5 2 June 2013 11: 48 New
              +1
              Dear fellow countryman, I absolutely do not share the views of "who is XXX longer", do not stand on the other hand, but for the sake of objectivity, how much has been taken into service from that list of BTT? and how much has been delivered to In. customers?
          2. Kars
            Kars 1 June 2013 17: 32 New
            +1
            Quote: svp67
            - Т90 and its upgrades from A to MS

            Is it a type one? There is a T-90A and there is ONE tank that is not called as soon as possible. MS, MA, and so on.
            As for the T-80 upgrades, Barca was torn down along with Omsk, like the rest, led by Black Eagle. So they can be mined.
            Armata is also a simplified T-95 frozen.

            But the most interesting thing is to look at these lists through the lens of financing.
            1. svp67
              svp67 1 June 2013 18: 08 New
              +2
              Quote: Kars
              But the most interesting thing is to look at these lists through the lens of financing.

              Start with yourself ...

              Quote: Kars
              There is a T-90A and there is ONE tank that is not called as soon as. MS, MA, and so on.

              Well, are you too crazy?
              -the first were simple T90, which came to the troops, in greater numbers than you have "mainstays" of various modifications ...
              - Т90С - in general out of competition, by the number of copies issued,
              - Т90А and further
              1. Kars
                Kars 1 June 2013 18: 23 New
                +1
                Quote: svp67
                Start with yourself.

                And we do not have government funding, so it will not be received.
                Quote: svp67
                Well, it's you too

                The very thing that it is. Before the A, you can unread it. Almost the usual 72.
                With - well, there was no particular choice for the Indians, the USSR built a plant for them specifically for T-72, even the competition was not conducted.
                Quote: svp67
                90 and beyond

                Further, as I have already written ONE.
              2. Rider
                Rider 1 June 2013 19: 47 New
                0
                Quote: Kars
                Further, as I have already written ONE.


                and how much nada?
              3. Kars
                Kars 1 June 2013 20: 07 New
                +1
                Quote: Rider
                and how much nada?

                How many will come up.
    3. svp67
      svp67 1 June 2013 17: 08 New
      0
      Quote: roial
      What about you?

      -BTR82

      -BTR90 "Rostock"

      -BTR90 "Berezhok"

      -BTR90 "Bakhcha"

      -
      1. roial
        1 June 2013 17: 11 New
        -5
        in a single instance, and then the MO refused it
        1. svp67
          svp67 1 June 2013 17: 15 New
          +3
          Quote: roial
          in a single instance, and then the MO refused it

          You asked for hardware in hardware - please continue here for a long time. And at the expense of someone who refused anything, remember the saying - “He will see a speck in another's eye, for that he will not notice in his log”
        2. Avenger711
          Avenger711 1 June 2013 21: 18 New
          0
          But hundreds of more suitable BTR-82, and in Ukraine only the Soviet finish.
    4. Alexey Prikazchikov
      Alexey Prikazchikov 1 June 2013 22: 58 New
      +3
      May I ask? And when all these metal models will be in the army and you won’t get a crap from envy?
  • svp67
    svp67 1 June 2013 16: 16 New
    +2
    And how many years did the queue of shoppers stretch out? Or have they not yet appeared?
  • Ziksura
    Ziksura 1 June 2013 16: 32 New
    +1
    Quote: roial
    In Ukraine, produced

    Release? !!!! laughing laughing laughing Seriously?!!!! Something for export and then with skip. The rest of the piece with a dubious prospect of launching the series. And most importantly - NOTHING ABOUT THE PRESENT BREAKTHROUGH, or at least INTERESTING. For it needs to be done sensibly, with feeling and alignment, in order to have at least 30 modernization potential for years on the XNUMX. And every year, it is not necessary to rivet slightly improved versions of an already existing mind. Do not confuse work and creating work visibility.
    1. roial
      1 June 2013 16: 42 New
      -3
      That you have that and there is no visibility to repaint the tank in a different color and pyzhitsya and negros in Africa can
    2. Corneli
      Corneli 1 June 2013 16: 54 New
      -1
      Quote: Ziksura
      Release? !!!! laughing laughing Seriously? !!!! Something for export and then with skip. The rest of the piece with a dubious prospect of launching the series. And most importantly - NOTHING ABOUT THE PRESENT BREAKTHROUGH, or at least INTERESTING. For it needs to be done sensibly, with feeling and alignment, in order to have at least 30 modernization potential for years on the XNUMX. And every year, it is not necessary to rivet slightly improved versions of an already existing mind. Do not confuse work and creating work visibility.

      That's just really ridiculous pathos is not necessary (Personally, I am glad! When I read, I see that in Russia something is released and done ... But in the armor-tank area, at the moment, alas and oh (you differ from Ukraine only in the model line and large funding and not the fact that the same Kharkiv KB with such financing would not have troubled you with a “pepelacea” sho you would never have dreamed of in a dream ...). And so ... I wait for Kurganets and Armatu .... and I hope that they will be there! And not as always (
      1. Rider
        Rider 1 June 2013 18: 54 New
        +3
        Quote: Corneli
        That's just really funny pathos is not necessary


        You can easily forward your application to your colleague.
        he was struck by the frenzy of separatism.
        Nasobachit a bunch of beautiful pictures, and modestly keep quiet about the stuffiness of its production
        1. Corneli
          Corneli 1 June 2013 20: 48 New
          0
          Quote: Rider
          You can easily forward your application to your colleague.
          he was struck by the frenzy of separatism.
          Nasobachit a bunch of beautiful pictures, and modestly keep quiet about the stuffiness of its production

          So yes (the guy got carried away, as for me ... It's just that the site does not always adequately convey "new comments", jumping on the "new" ones, missed it for some reason (((
  • Rider
    Rider 1 June 2013 18: 47 New
    +4
    Ay dear guardian of the Ukrainian armored vehicles.
    since they began to post BEAUTIFUL PICTURES, then be kind enough to quote for each sample the number of built, put into service, and sold.
    as well, we will be able to overload the site with pictures.
    The same matryga can be a couple of modifications to bring both beh, and betrov.
    and only different dozens of modifications will be added.
    1. roial
      1 June 2013 22: 47 New
      -2
      From 2005 to 2011, Ukraine repaired, modernized and sold over the hill:
      618 tanks (42 to Azerbaijan, 21 to Algeria, 91 to Georgia, 120 to the Democratic Republic of the Congo, 2 to the USA, 100 to Kenya, 160 to Sudan, 72 to Ethiopia)

      776 BTR, BMP, MTLB, BRDM, etc. (73 - to Georgia, 12 - to Uganda, 2 - Kazakhstan, 20 - to Congo, 40 - to Nigeria, 214 - to Iraq, 166 - to Azerbaijan, 26 - to Myanong , 11 - in the USA, 134 - in Chad, 38 - in Thailand, 36 - in Sudan, 4 - in Ethiopia)

      Upgraded for the needs of their Armed Forces
      76 T-64B to the level T-64BM "Bulat"

      According to the new models, there is no fountain, but there are such figures:

      BTR-94 - 50 pcs.
      BTR-3 - more than 300 pcs.
      BTR-4 - about 150 pcs.
      BM "Oplot" - 10 pcs.
      T-84U - 10 pcs.
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 2 June 2013 01: 45 New
        +4
        Quote: roial
        776 BTR, BMP, MTLB, BRDM, etc. (... 2 - Kazakhstan ...)

        2 BTRs were purchased for testing. Last year, a contract was signed for the assembly of the 100 BTR-4 in Kazakhstan.
        In addition, the Ukrainians helped reanimate the armored machinery repair plant in Semipalatinsk, and also began work on modernizing Kazakhstan tanks, if I am not mistaken, with Kazakhstan Engineering.
  • Conepatus
    Conepatus 2 June 2013 11: 24 New
    0
    MTLB is not produced anywhere in the former Soviet Union. The production line in Bulgaria remained. During the Warsaw Pact, this was not significant, but now no one will be doing a new line for MTLB.
  • svp67
    svp67 1 June 2013 16: 14 New
    0
    Quote: roial
    Carry out upgrades
    T-72 tanks:

    And there are no buyers for one of these modifications ... in the overwhelming majority of the "Soviet-style" T72
    1. Kars
      Kars 1 June 2013 17: 34 New
      +1
      Quote: svp67
      the overwhelming majority of the "Soviet-style" T72

      Even for deliveries to Ethiopia, they are modernizing. How can they do for any customer according to their financial capabilities.
  • Yarbay
    Yarbay 1 June 2013 16: 38 New
    +3
    Quote: roial
    T-XNUMHAG

    I have a friend tanker, very competent and generally in tanks, he says that the best modernization of the T-72 is the T-XNUMHAG!
    What is this modernization super!
    1. svp67
      svp67 1 June 2013 17: 18 New
      +1
      Quote: Yarbay
      I have a friend tanker, very competent and generally in tanks, he says that the best modernization of the T-72 is the T-XNUMHAG!

      Your friend simply didn’t exploit her, after that he abruptly changes his opinion ... The G letter is not casual in it ... You can’t cross a hedgehog with a viper and wait for the appearance of "three meters of barbed wire" ... Т72 Slingshot is better ..
      1. Alexander D.
        Alexander D. 1 June 2013 20: 03 New
        0
        Have you exploited both T-72B2 and T-72AG to make such statements? Then why did the Defense Ministry of the Russian Federation not adopt the Slingshot?
        1. svp67
          svp67 1 June 2013 21: 35 New
          0
          Quote: Alexander D.
          Have you exploited both T-72B2 and T-72AG to make such statements? Then why did the Defense Ministry of the Russian Federation not adopt the Slingshot?

          I have experience in the operation of tanks with engines "TD" and "B". I will say straight - All series B engines are more reliable in operation. For the "TD" requires training mechanics much higher ... It is in the matter of care. A little mech.vod did not follow - all the dust wear to the engine is provided ... and then every engine start starts to become a problem ...
          1. Alexander D.
            Alexander D. 1 June 2013 21: 54 New
            -3
            I didn’t ask about the engine, but about specific vehicles that should be considered as a set of measures taken to improve the combat capabilities of the tank. In this question T-XNUMHAG will be better than T-72 from the words of Yarbay.
            1. svp67
              svp67 1 June 2013 22: 00 New
              +2
              Quote: Alexander D.
              In this question T-XNUMHAG will be better than T-72 from the words of Yarbay.

              Yes, the fact of the matter is that in all our tanks the engine plays a very large role. But, in general, if we compare T72AG, it certainly has advantages over T90, but it no longer has it over T90 ...
            2. Alexander D.
              Alexander D. 1 June 2013 22: 42 New
              -1
              Quote: svp67
              Quote: Alexander D.
              In this question T-XNUMHAG will be better than T-72 from the words of Yarbay.

              Yes, the fact of the matter is that in all our tanks the engine plays a very large role. But, in general, if we compare T72AG, it certainly has advantages over T90, but it no longer has it over T90 ...

              Well, why not have? On the latest 6TD series engines, the power loss at + 55 is 5-10%, on the B series engines at + 45, the power loss is up to 25% - therefore, they were called "night butterflies" in India (they drive only at night - during the day in the heat stalls).
              On the Ukrainian tanks DZ NAZH, which in its characteristics surpasses the Contact-5 and Relic both in terms of armor resistance and in the range of ammunition, which it stops.
            3. svp67
              svp67 2 June 2013 02: 37 New
              +1
              Quote: Alexander D.
              Well, why not have? On the latest 6TD series engines, the power loss at + 55 is 5-10%, on the B series engines at + 45, the power loss is up to 25% - therefore, they were called "night butterflies" in India (they drive only at night - during the day in the heat stalls).
              On the Ukrainian tanks DZ NAZH, which in its characteristics surpasses the Contact-5 and Relic both in terms of armor resistance and in the range of ammunition, which it stops.

              You lead the story about TXNUMHAG? Just not a tank, but "CHUDO". Yes, well, and now "tar" "tablespoons."
              I do not know what kind of "fly bitten" the designers, but they shoved 5TD into MTO Т72, without changing the design of the cooling system, as a result of the power loss on this tank much more than the 5-10% you declared ...
            4. Alexander D.
              Alexander D. 2 June 2013 10: 25 New
              -1
              Quote: svp67

              You lead the story about TXNUMHAG? Just not a tank, but "CHUDO". Yes, well, and now "tar" "tablespoons."
              I do not know what kind of "fly bitten" the designers, but they shoved 5TD into MTO Т72, without changing the design of the cooling system, as a result of the power loss on this tank much more than the 5-10% you declared ...

              Well, who told you that? Do you really think that the CCDB didn’t foresee this, but have you noticed it?
              http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/Modern/T72/t72ag/
              http://www.morozov.com.ua/rus/body/t72ag.php
              http://uos.ua/produktsiya/bronetehnika/59-boevoy-tank-t-72-ag
              http://www.tankinfo.ru/Country/Ukraina/T-72AG.php
        2. Yarbay
          Yarbay 1 June 2013 23: 35 New
          +1
          Quote: svp67
          Yes, the fact of the matter is that in all our tanks the engine plays a very large role. But, in general, if we compare T72AG, it certainly has advantages over T90, but it no longer has it over T90 ...

          I agree!
          In this you are right!
  • Yarbay
    Yarbay 1 June 2013 21: 20 New
    +1
    Quote: svp67
    Your friend simply didn’t exploit her, after that he abruptly changes his opinion ... The G letter is not casual in it ... You can’t cross a hedgehog with a viper and wait for the appearance of "three meters of barbed wire" ... Т72 Slingshot is better ..

    The fact of the matter is that he exploits it))))))
    He is crazy about her !! He says that this tank, or rather, the modernization doesn’t differ from the T-90 in terms of its equipment!
    I trust him because I saw what he can do with a tank!
    On the contrary, it seems to me that you do not know, because what you write is clearly biased!
    1. svp67
      svp67 1 June 2013 21: 36 New
      +1
      Quote: Yarbay
      He is crazy about her !! He says that this tank, or rather, the modernization doesn’t differ from the T-90 in terms of its equipment!

      New tanks, they are new. Let's wait a year, but look there ...
      1. Yarbay
        Yarbay 1 June 2013 22: 48 New
        +1
        Quote: svp67
        New tanks, they are new. Let's wait a year, but look there ...

        It would be stupid to disagree with you, but in our country this modernization has been exploited since 2006, if my memory does not alter my memory!
  • Alexander D.
    Alexander D. 1 June 2013 17: 23 New
    -1
    I have a friend tanker, very competent and generally in tanks, he says that the best modernization of the T-72 is the T-XNUMHAG!
    What is this modernization super!

    Yarbay, by the way, you promised a photo of T-72AG.
    1. Yarbay
      Yarbay 1 June 2013 21: 26 New
      +1
      Quote: Alexander D.
      Yarbay, by the way, you promised a photo of T-72AG.

      Alas, I have not yet found the normal pictures! but I'll think of something !!
      There is one photo from the teachings, I can not find it, looking for forums !!
      the parade will most likely be 26 go !!
  • svp67
    svp67 1 June 2013 16: 12 New
    +1
    Quote: roial
    In Ukraine, produced

    There is a difference between DEVELOPED and RELEASED all the same ...
    From the proposed list, champions of course are
    - 4 BTR
    - T80UD
    The rest of the units ...
    1. roial
      1 June 2013 16: 18 New
      -2
      Well, at least it is embodied in metal, and not layouts are plasmas.
    2. Kars
      Kars 1 June 2013 17: 34 New
      +3
      BTR-3 more than a hundred in Thailand alone
  • Bad_gr
    Bad_gr 1 June 2013 19: 59 New
    +1
    Quote: roial
    And in response, silence

    In Ukraine they produce:

    Main battle tank BM PLOT
    Tank Yatagan
    Main battle tank T-80UD
    Heavy BMP based on T-64


    It would not be bad for the word "release" any numbers to add.
    In the sense of: how much is released, where delivered.
    1. Alexander D.
      Alexander D. 1 June 2013 20: 12 New
      +2
      It would not be bad for the word "release" any numbers to add.
      In the sense of: how much is released, where delivered.

      Vladimir, unequivocally in Ukraine there is no such scale of production of armored vehicles as in Russia, but we do not shout that our products have no analogues ... we first rivet something at factories, sign contracts for the supply of products, and then we only learn that a firm contract was signed or a consignment of military equipment was shipped. If Russia did not sell weapons on credit, then it would be appropriate to compare the sales volumes of our countries.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • svp67
    svp67 1 June 2013 10: 16 New
    +3
    In 2009, a new modification of the Oplot tank, equipped with a full-line anti-tandem dynamic knife defense, was released to the state tests.
    And now it's the year 2013, and what is Nothing from now on? Or the article is old or the author has nothing to say ...
    The management of the DP Kharkiv Armored Repair Plant, where the T-64 underwent major repairs and upgrades (up to the standard T-64BM2), believes that the tank has prospects in the external market,
    - judging by the absence of contracts with buyers, a slightly different opinion ...
    An autonomous module with a front-mounted logistics system with the aim of creating on its base various military vehicles (heavy armored personnel carriers) and civilian design developed by the im plant. V. O. Malisheva,
    an autonomous complex is excellent, but the front location of TD engines is the worst variant of their placement, due to the "inherent" high opacity of these engines ... thanks to which it is good to aim and fire accurately to the side where exhaust gases will be emitted VERY problematic ...
    1. Kars
      Kars 1 June 2013 10: 18 New
      +4
      Quote: svp67
      And now it's the year 2013, and what is Nothing from now on? Or the article is old or the author has nothing to say ...

      What do you have after Relic 2005 year?



      http://fcct-microtek.com/b_duplet_ru.html
      1. svp67
        svp67 1 June 2013 10: 41 New
        +1
        Quote: Kars
        What do you have after Relic 2005 year?

        Let's just say, all this time, we add, far from the best, there was development not only of the “active armor” itself, but also of its “assistants” ...
        1. Kars
          Kars 1 June 2013 11: 19 New
          +1
          Quote: svp67
          Let's just say, all this time

          And specifically? And then you demand a whale, and the answer is not very.
          1. svp67
            svp67 1 June 2013 11: 22 New
            +1
            Quote: Kars
            And specifically? And then you demand a whale,

            This is specifically what I demanded from you? And for what answer refused to keep? You do not confuse?

            If you are talking about the story of An70, then I will not change my position, since the money has been paid and the obligations have been fulfilled, I would very much like this from my partner ...
            Ukraine is not a stranger to me, but I always felt like a Russian, and as a citizen of Russia, I consider it my duty to fight for its interests ... as far as possible.
            1. Kars
              Kars 1 June 2013 11: 51 New
              +1
              Quote: svp67
              This is specifically what I demanded from you?

              Quote: svp67
              2013 is now in the yard, and what is nothing from now on? Or the article is old or the author has nothing to say ..
              1. svp67
                svp67 1 June 2013 12: 23 New
                +1
                Quote: Kars
                2013 is now in the yard, and what is nothing from now on? Or the article is old or the author has nothing to say ..


                I do not refuse my words
                From 2006 to 2013 in the Russian Federation, several interesting modifications of the T72 and T90 appeared, not to mention the testing of "promising" models of tanks, even if they were not accepted for service. And you, during this time, how many new "promising" appeared? Still "64", "72" and "80UD" "upgrade" ...
                1. roial
                  1 June 2013 12: 30 New
                  -2
                  And it is possible in more detail what is all the same for
                  Quote: svp67
                  "promising" models of tanks

                  if you can then photo
                2. Kars
                  Kars 1 June 2013 12: 54 New
                  +1
                  Quote: svp67
                  I do not refuse my words
                  From 2006 to 2013 in the Russian Federation there appeared several interesting modifications of the Т72 and Т90,

                  I am wildly apologizing but you crawl away to the side (otherwise it will not be expressed), we are talking specifically about DZ
                  Quote: svp67
                  2009, a new modification of the Oplot tank, equipped with a full-line anti-tandem dynamic protection “knife”, was released to the state tests. And now it's the year 2013, and what is NOTHING from now on? Or the article is old or the author has nothing to say ...

                  Or are you talking about tank models? Sorry, you only have T-90A adopted and everything. And you don’t have any promising MODELS of tanks, Armata is stopped for an indefinite period, while calling so one unfinished chassis is too loud.
                  1. builder
                    builder 1 June 2013 14: 16 New
                    +3
                    The dispute between Russians and Ukrainians about whose tanks more steeply remind of the dialogue of two one-armed men. One does not have the left hand of the other with the right. Everything that is being done in Russia and Ukraine in the field of tank building - the ideas of the Soviet school of tank building (I will not say anything about Armat until I see a photo). It's time to create joint projects (ideas + money + production capacity). For example, create a tank for export. Ihmo
                  2. Yarbay
                    Yarbay 1 June 2013 21: 37 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Kars
                    I'm wildly apologizing

                    killed)))))))
    2. Alexander D.
      Alexander D. 1 June 2013 17: 55 New
      0
      svp67 Today, 10: 16
      In 2009, a new modification of the Oplot tank, equipped with an all-view anti-tandem dynamic protection “knife,” came out for state tests. And now it's the year 2013, and what is NOTHING from now on? Or the article is old or the author has nothing to say ...

      According to your nickname, I see that you are a man of the age, and not a green kid, so I will answer as politely as possible:
      DZ "Knife" was developed 90x and installed on tanks, delivered to Pakistan. In 1999 was demonstrated on the tank BM "Bulat". After that only in 2006g. UVZ presented the T-72B2 "Slingshot" upgrade copied from Bulat and recognized as the most successful T-72 upgrade. As you could read in the article Relic is not better than KNIFE. And about the new DZ Duplet ...


      And about the engine opacity, so with the T-90 our engines do not incur ...


      Compare T-64 BM Bulat 1999 and T-72B2 Slingshot 2006.
      1. svp67
        svp67 1 June 2013 18: 23 New
        +3
        Quote: Alexander D.
        DZ "Knife" was developed by 90


        The idea of ​​applying this principle arose much earlier, at the end of 1980? S, and was worked out by specialists of the Steel Research Institute.

        http://www.sa100.ru/armor/DZ/dz1/dz1.html
        And this is the Moscow Research Institute ...
        Quote: Alexander D.
        And about the engine opacity, so with the T-90 our engines do not incur ...

        You are right even to this “tired” and “tarred” Т90 engine far in smoke from TD engines
        1. Alexander D.
          Alexander D. 1 June 2013 19: 25 New
          +3
          If this is the development of scientific research institutes of Steel, then why haven’t they put it on T-90 yet, and use Relic (just the modernization of Contact)?
          It is incorrect to compare T-64BV (70x of release, on which only 80x were hung with new armor and sights) and T-90MS "Breakthrough" 2011g. You would also compare the T-34 with the "Armata" ... Oh yeah, sorry - there is nothing to compare.
          1. roial
            1 June 2013 21: 30 New
            +1
            Why so
            Thirty four krasava



          2. svp67
            svp67 1 June 2013 21: 45 New
            0
            Quote: Alexander D.
            It is incorrect to compare the T-64BV (70x of the release, on which only 80x hung new armor and sights) and the T-90MS "Breakthrough" 2011

            I do not understand, we measure the opacity of engines or brands of tanks?


            Quote: Alexander D.
            You would also compare the T-34 with the "Armata" ... Oh yeah, sorry - there is nothing to compare.

            "Chickens in the fall believe ..." Your side is even "hearing" as long as there is nothing to boast about ...
            1. Kars
              Kars 1 June 2013 21: 48 New
              +3
              Quote: svp67
              "Chickens in the fall believe ..." Your side is even "hearing" as long as there is nothing to boast about ...

              Specify only the number of the year of autumn, nothing to be considered in this.
              As for the rumor, before the BM Oplot is quite enough, there is no sense in spending huge money. Although, of course, the UVZ appetites are huge, especially on the threshold of privatization,
            2. Alexander D.
              Alexander D. 1 June 2013 22: 05 New
              0
              I do not understand, we measure the opacity of engines or brands of tanks?

              About smoke, you began to prove that this is a major flaw in tanks and Ukrainian tanks in this regard ahead of the rest, although I have provided you with the arguments to the contrary.
              "Chickens in the fall believe ..." Your side is even "hearing" as long as there is nothing to boast about ...

              This fall, we will definitely not count any chickens on your side, and Oplot-M is today one of the best tanks in its class. And who among us knows that they are now riveting at the KMDB - personally, I don’t have reliable sources there, and you?
        2. Kars
          Kars 1 June 2013 20: 11 New
          +3
          Quote: svp67
          DZ "Knife" was developed by 90

          USSR if you break up collapsed in 1991
          Quote: svp67
          The idea of ​​applying this principle arose much earlier, at the end of 1980? S, and was worked out by specialists of the Steel Research Institute.
          http://www.sa100.ru/armor/DZ/dz1/dz1.html
          And this is the Moscow Research Institute ...

          This only does not matter because it is the same USSR, and you can begin to analyze nationalities in the group.
      2. svp67
        svp67 1 June 2013 18: 37 New
        +3
        Quote: Alexander D.
        And about the smoke


        It is enough just to watch your own commercials and there will be no questions on this topic.
        1. Alexander D.
          Alexander D. 1 June 2013 19: 19 New
          0
          It is inappropriate to compare the prototype BMPT-64 (which was not accepted for armament, it didn’t even pass a full set of factory tests) and the T-90CM (if I’m not mistaken called "Breakthrough"), which is offered for export as the most modern and unparalleled tank.
          1. svp67
            svp67 1 June 2013 19: 34 New
            +1
            Quote: Alexander D.
            Inappropriate to compare prototype BMPT-64

            Do you think that this is just a coincidence that the TD is characterized by a high opacity. I assure you that no. TD is structurally made in such a way that it consumes more oil and smoke because of the fact that it gets into the "combustion chamber" ... And the more the engine is operated, the more the cloud becomes ...
            1. Alexander D.
              Alexander D. 1 June 2013 19: 46 New
              +1
              On the T-64BV stands the 5TDF engine with 700 horsepower. (if you have ever heard it, then you know that it sounds like a circular saw), and on the new Bulat there is an 5TDFM with 850 horsepower. (purr like a kitten and there is no such smoke on it). On a stronghold is 6TD-2Е with 1200 horsepower. (there are generally complied with environmental standards). And if you compare them with the T-90 MS on IDEX-2013, then they are all environmentally friendly!
              1. svp67
                svp67 1 June 2013 21: 50 New
                +1
                Quote: Alexander D.
                Bulat worth 5TDFM power 850 hp (purr like a kitten and there is no such smoke on it).

                Somehow this video suggests the opposite - as there was a problem with smoke, it didn’t disappear much, the new cars are even less so, and they just seem like they start ..
                1. roial
                  1 June 2013 22: 10 New
                  -1
                  You do not confuse dust with smoke, when I am on the UAZ in the field, the food will be followed by a “smoke” plume.
                2. Alexander D.
                  Alexander D. 1 June 2013 22: 14 New
                  0
                  Quote: svp67
                  svp67 Today, 21: 50 New
                  Quote: Alexander D.
                  Bulat worth 5TDFM power 850 hp (purr like a kitten and there is no such smoke on it).
                  Somehow this video suggests the opposite - as there was a problem with smoke, it didn’t disappear much, the new cars are even less so, and they just seem like they start ..

                  On the T-90MS, even on the new blue smoke will be considered a great achievement of the designers. And in a combat situation, the soldiers to one place of what color the tank has smoke - both tankmen and motorized riflemen - if only they were driving and firing.
              2. svp67
                svp67 1 June 2013 21: 54 New
                +1
                Quote: Alexander D.
                On a stronghold is 6TD-2Е with 1200 horsepower. (there are generally complied with environmental standards). BUT


                And here in the clubs of gray smoke, where only environmentalists look, Oplot leaves ...
                1. roial
                  1 June 2013 22: 14 New
                  +1
                  But in a puff of smoke and superscale T-90
                2. Alexander D.
                  Alexander D. 1 June 2013 22: 19 New
                  0
                  Quote: Alexander D.
                  On a stronghold is 6TD-2Е with 1200 horsepower. (there are generally complied with environmental standards). BUT


                  And here in the clubs of gray smoke, where only environmentalists look, Oplot leaves ...


                  In the first frame, the T-84 "Yatagan" with the 6TD-2 engine traveled ... On a primer, the T-84 "Oplot" was driving - also with the 6TD-2 engine ... On the Oplot-M (which is supplied to Thailand) stands 6TD-2E, about which I told you - he has no more opacity than VAZ-99
                3. Corneli
                  Corneli 2 June 2013 00: 15 New
                  +2
                  Quote: svp67
                  And here in the clubs of gray smoke, where only environmentalists look, Oplot leaves ...

                  Well ... creepy tank ... smoke came from the front tracks, I was even scared)
      3. svp67
        svp67 1 June 2013 18: 59 New
        +1
        Quote: Alexander D.
        Compare T-64 BM Bulat 1999 and T-72B2 Slingshot 2006.

        So what? On "Bulat" is
        The multichannel (target, distance-measuring, thermal imaging channels and a channel for guided missiles combined with them) the gunner's sight Sosna, produced by Belarusian OJSC Peleng, is equipped with a second-generation CATHERINE CATHERINE thermal imaging camera from Thomson-CSF.
        1. Alexander D.
          Alexander D. 1 June 2013 19: 12 New
          0
          There is a few years difference between them and for the electronic filling it is a long enough time so that on the T-72B2 at that time they could introduce something more powerful. But in general, you yourself noticed that their appearance is very similar ... and in fact all other upgrades of the T-72 in their appearance were customized to T-90.
          1. svp67
            svp67 1 June 2013 19: 18 New
            +1
            Quote: Alexander D.
            There is a few years difference between them and for the electronic filling it is a long enough time so that on the T-72B2 at that time they could introduce something more powerful. But in general, you yourself noticed that their appearance is very similar ... and in fact all other upgrades of the T-72 in their appearance were customized to T-90.

            And how many people are able to distinguish between photos T64 from T72 or T80. I assure you not much, these machines were created in Soviet times with an “eye on” for T64 and outwardly very similar ... So, it is not surprising that the designers who studied according to one “textbook” invent something similar ...
            1. Alexander D.
              Alexander D. 1 June 2013 19: 37 New
              +1
              As far as we know, UVZ has always strived to create tanks in no way resembling KMDB tanks. The T-72 tried to make as little as possible of the nodes and spare parts similar to the T-64 ... if they could, they would have removed the tracks.
              1. svp67
                svp67 1 June 2013 20: 58 New
                +1
                Quote: Alexander D.
                As far as we know, UVZ has always strived to create tanks in no way resembling KMDB tanks. The T-72 tried to make as little as possible of the nodes and spare parts similar to the T-64 ... if they could, they would have removed the tracks.

                I'm talking about a general view. Here you can say what is what


                1. Alexander D.
                  Alexander D. 1 June 2013 21: 13 New
                  -2
                  1) T-72
                  2) T-64
                  3) T-80
                  1. svp67
                    svp67 1 June 2013 21: 20 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Alexander D.
                    1) T-72
                    2) T-64
                    3) T-80

                    Alas, wrong
                    1) T-80
                    2) T-64
                    3) T-72
                  2. Kars
                    Kars 1 June 2013 21: 27 New
                    +1
                    When such photos, the easiest way to look at the tracks.
                    1. svp67
                      svp67 2 June 2013 14: 29 New
                      0
                      Quote: Kars
                      When such photos, the easiest way to look at the tracks.

                      as well as the position of the illuminator "Moon",
                      - devices meh.voda;
                      - pipes OPVT,
                      - LSD,
                      - boxes of spare parts and AT ...
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 2 June 2013 14: 42 New
                        +2
                        Not by caterpillars is the easiest to identify. If the tower is large, there is no particular problem to distinguish.
              2. svp67
                svp67 1 June 2013 21: 21 New
                0
                Quote: Alexander D.
                if it were possible, they would have removed the caterpillars.

                You will not believe - they removed them and put others ...
        2. Kars
          Kars 1 June 2013 20: 14 New
          +2
          A place for installation is provided. And the boasts of Belorussky and French))) will also be sold to us.
          1. svp67
            svp67 1 June 2013 20: 16 New
            +1
            Quote: Kars
            A place for installation is provided. And the boasts of Belorussky and French))) will also be sold to us.

            That's when they sell, then we'll talk ... The fact is that “Pine” is a development of the Novosibirsk Design Bureau ... So there is something to brag about.
            1. Kars
              Kars 1 June 2013 21: 04 New
              +2
              Quote: svp67
              from when they will sell it, then we'll talk ... The fact is that “Pine” is a development of the Novosibirsk Design Bureau ... So there is something to brag about.

              Quote: svp67
              healer gunner "Pine", produced by the Belarusian OJSC "Peleng"

              Quote: svp67
              That's when they sell

              And what are the doubts? They will line up in the line from Aeglicha to Jews. At least I think they can do it themselves.
              But while Bulat is approximately equal to the Polish a4, and surpasses the Romanian TR-85 M1
      4. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 1 June 2013 21: 36 New
        +5
        Quote: Alexander D.
        Compare T-64 BM Bulat 1999 and T-72B2 Slingshot 2006.



        smile Tank T-80U (Peter). 1985 year.
        1. Alexander D.
          Alexander D. 1 June 2013 22: 28 New
          -1
          Tank T-80U (Peter). 1985 year.

          Vladimir, you are not a stupid opponent, and you understood what I meant - on all tanks of the T-72 and T-90 series there are no rubber cloth guards on the tower, and on Rogatka appeared exactly after Bulat ... On all UVZ tanks the side projection of the tank’s hull is poorly reserved - on Slingshot they tried to change something, although the lateral exhaust makes it difficult ... And finally, only on Slingshot they used the modular arrangement of DZ and VLD, although on all the rest Contact-5 (even those that go to the troops).
          1. Bad_gr
            Bad_gr 1 June 2013 23: 36 New
            +1
            Quote: Alexander D.
            ... on all tanks of the T-72 and T-90 series there are no rubber-fabric guards on the turret

            I came across information that the rubber-fabric shields on the tower (as well as the fabric cape) appeared on the tank to reduce radio visibility. Apparently, such a task was not set before the developers, so there were no screens.
            In addition to the "slingshot," at the time, there were other rather successful modifications of 72 matches that did not go into the series. For example, "Object 172-2M" (ROC "Buffalo"). There was a modification with laser spotlights.
            In general, external similarity does not mean anything. A similar statement of the problem, and as a result, a similar technique.
            1. Alexander D.
              Alexander D. 2 June 2013 00: 22 New
              +1
              Quote: Bad_gr
              Quote: Alexander D.
              ... on all tanks of the T-72 and T-90 series there are no rubber-fabric guards on the turret

              I came across information that the rubber-fabric shields on the tower (as well as the fabric cape) appeared on the tank to reduce radio visibility. Apparently, such a task was not set before the developers, so there were no screens.
              In addition to the "slingshot," at the time, there were other rather successful modifications of 72 matches that did not go into the series. For example, "Object 172-2M" (ROC "Buffalo"). There was a modification with laser spotlights.
              In general, external similarity does not mean anything. A similar statement of the problem, and as a result, a similar technique.

              That is, the latest T-90MS also did not set the task of reducing radio visibility? Then it’s a degradation, because on all modern tanks they’re taking measures to reduce radio stealth (composite armor, etc.).
              1. Bad_gr
                Bad_gr 2 June 2013 01: 03 New
                +1
                Quote: Alexander D.
                That is, the latest T-90MS also did not set the task of reducing radio visibility?
                If set, then the solution there is completely different. For example, the tilt angles DZ turret tank T90ms sharper than the same t80, so the radar beam will be reflected up and down, but not in the direction from where it came.
      5. Yemelya
        Yemelya 2 June 2013 19: 05 New
        0
        Quote: Alexander D.
        DZ "KNIFE" was developed 90s and installed on tanks delivered to Pakistan.


        Photo of Pakistani T-80UD with the DZ "Knife" - in the studio!
  • G_shock_
    G_shock_ 1 June 2013 10: 18 New
    +5
    I consider the political srach inappropriate here. The article seemed interesting and informative to me. As a citizen of Ukraine, I am glad that the tank industry has not yet bent either in our country or in Russia. The main thing is that the state understands the need for development and strives to develop tank building.
    1. Truffoff
      Truffoff 1 June 2013 10: 33 New
      -7
      Quote: G_shock_
      I think the political squad is inappropriate here

      Why is it inappropriate. We need additional funds for the rearmament program. Why deprive our people if it is possible to collect debts from our neighbors? In addition, frames are needed that again can be taken from
      fraternal Ukraine. Until they were completely killed there. So taking into account
      debt a couple of factories can carry out "economic" integration. And let the government of Ukraine go to Geyropa, but without industry. Taking advantage of the situation, we can buy up advanced production, thereby preventing the collapse of what has not yet collapsed, and strengthen our position.
      1. G_shock_
        G_shock_ 1 June 2013 10: 54 New
        +9
        To you, who is this? You are a simple layman of your country. And for you, she does as much as mine for me, that is, nothing. Therefore, I consider hatred for "ours" or "yours" stupidity squared. Give advice, free: you just read articles, get knowledge and do not stir up political disputes between ordinary people. But if you really want to, you can take the flag and go to a rally in the main square of the country.
      2. Roll
        Roll 1 June 2013 10: 58 New
        +3
        tongue What are the shots from Ukraine? retirees, everything that is possible from good has long been taken away by China. And what kind of production to buy? engines, so they cooperate with China, they sell at their MT 2000. We don’t have much to buy from them, and the Chinese will soon be crushed by the mass production and price, But cooperation with China will save their military-industrial complex, although there will no longer be independence.
        1. Truffoff
          Truffoff 1 June 2013 11: 20 New
          0
          Quote: Rolm
          What are the shots from Ukraine? retirees, everything that is possible from good has long been taken away by China. And what kind of production to buy? engines, so they cooperate with China, they sell at their MT 2000. We don’t have much to buy from them, and the Chinese will soon be crushed by the mass production and price, But cooperation with China will save their military-industrial complex, although there will no longer be independence.

          Very sorry. cryingIf this is true. Late.
          Really a pity.
        2. Akim
          Akim 1 June 2013 11: 34 New
          -2
          Quote: Rolm
          What are the shots from Ukraine? retirees, everything that is possible from good has long been taken away by China.

          There are enough young personnel in engineering. In Kharkov universities a competition of 10-14 people per place. Not enough simple upscale workers. Young people eat there, but experience comes over the years. A minimum of 5 years must be done. Not everyone can stand it. The fluid is big.
          1. Roll
            Roll 1 June 2013 11: 52 New
            -1
            wassat The fact that the competition is such a good thing, But how many engineers go abroad, how many go to other specialties and how much is the main dough allocated to scientific developments? if the latter is bad, there are few prospects.
            1. Akim
              Akim 1 June 2013 12: 07 New
              +1
              Quote: Rolm
              But how many engineers go abroad, how many go in other specialties

              Those areas that earn value and their engineers. Abroad, our young specialists are not needed - they still do not know how. Yes, and the military (if it comes to the armored industry) is not easy to break and leave for the hill. Moreover, weapons factories (including the manufacture of ammunition) - earn good money. I'm not talking about the aerospace industry. Especially after they began to cooperate with the United States by supplying them with components. There, apartments are issued, etc.
              And money for research is being allocated. Here for their implementation - there is already no money.
        3. Gecko
          Gecko 1 June 2013 11: 39 New
          +1
          The EU will sooner or later forbid them to cooperate with China, or China will cease to cooperate with this country from the EU.
        4. roial
          1 June 2013 12: 13 New
          -5
          same as yours
          there is nothing to drive a blizzard here or want to say that you have young highly qualified personnel working at your factories ?? The same old people of 40 years and above.
      3. tuts
        tuts 1 June 2013 19: 11 New
        +4
        IMHO The meaning of the article is to create a promising arms market. Well, Russia or Ukraine cannot sell weapons on both sides of the conflict.

        As for the discussion about debts, this is nonsense to me personally, no one should not. As a citizen of Russia, I will make all claims to my government (by type: Dokle), and it is not productive to demand from the citizens of another country mine.
        1. Corneli
          Corneli 1 June 2013 19: 26 New
          +1
          Quote: tots
          As for the discussion about debts, this is nonsense to me personally, no one should not. As a citizen of Russia, I will make all claims to my government (by type: Dokle), and it is not productive to demand from the citizens of another country mine.

          Wow! OFIGEL and just put a plus!) drinks
  • Corneli
    Corneli 1 June 2013 11: 03 New
    0
    In addition, not much proofreading (the text mainly refers to events up to 2006, and 2006 like in the future))) and dubious comparisons with the T-90 (I did not notice any information about its modifications, a feeling that was compared with the very first models) that are generally extremely harmful on this site ... an article for any plus. A lot of material has been given, in detail and with high quality. I am glad that compatriots do not give up and try to do something, the "support" of our state is sad ((When these ghouls get drunk already!)
    1. Ziksura
      Ziksura 1 June 2013 16: 10 New
      0
      Quote: Corneli
      the feeling that compared with the very first models

      Absolutely right. If i have my sclerosis what laughing does not change, and on our site there was a refutation of this "comparative analysis", a thousand times already published. In general, the author of the article is a copy-paste function, and not the one whose signature is at all. request
  • Fofan
    Fofan 1 June 2013 11: 10 New
    -3
    yeah .... at least one contract for 100+ tanks for all the years of independence was?
    1. Corneli
      Corneli 1 June 2013 11: 17 New
      0
      Quote: Fofan
      yeah .... at least one contract for 100+ tanks for all the years of independence was?

      Try to read the article first ... at least one answer was there, and at the beginning fellow
  • Truffoff
    Truffoff 1 June 2013 11: 14 New
    -3
    Quote: G_shock_
    And for you she does as much as mine for me, that is, nothing

    That's nice, it's bad when it suddenly starts to interfere.
    And sometimes to tears it is insulting for his bad-going government.
    Which allows you to drive yourself by the nose, can not pacify the presumptuous,
    who tinkers with absolutely ungrateful neighbors, ready for him
    throw at any moment. And Ukraine as a bride. Who will have it?
    And then my state begins to slow down.
    Well, he has to re-learn to keep his flock in check.
  • Kolyan 2
    Kolyan 2 1 June 2013 11: 15 New
    0
    Quote: roial
    if my memory serves me correctly, then your president, before landing on the bench of our Yulichka, she then warmed your MO, said that he had no complaints to her, so decide then.

    The president and I have different views on this. hi
    1. roial
      1 June 2013 12: 15 New
      0
      Only he doesn’t give a damn about it, he forgave her and has no complaints. And if you have it then you are in the Kremlin.
  • laurbalaur
    laurbalaur 1 June 2013 11: 28 New
    0
    Thanks to the author for a voluminous, unbiased and informative article!
    1. dominatus
      dominatus 1 June 2013 13: 33 New
      +1
      Only the article, obviously 2-3 years old.
      There is not a single word in it about the new Oplot-M tank, and not a word about the contract for the supply of 250 of these vehicles to Thailand.
  • Fofan
    Fofan 1 June 2013 11: 33 New
    -1
    Quote: Corneli
    Quote: Fofan
    yeah .... at least one contract for 100+ tanks for all the years of independence was?

    Try to read the article first ... at least one answer was there, and at the beginning fellow

    yes indeed Pakistan 380 tanks. Well, there is something to be proud of, soon 20 years of signing the contract! the holiday will be!
    1. Corneli
      Corneli 1 June 2013 11: 44 New
      0
      Quote: Fofan
      Quote: Corneli
      Quote: Fofan
      yeah .... at least one contract for 100+ tanks for all the years of independence was?

      Try to read the article first ... at least one answer was there, and at the beginning fellow

      yes indeed Pakistan 380 tanks. Well, there is something to be proud of, soon 20 years of signing the contract! the holiday will be!

      A post in the style of: "I won’t say thank you for the advice, I really wanted to write disgusting ... and wrote, well, at least some"))) Kindergarten!
    2. dominatus
      dominatus 1 June 2013 13: 39 New
      0
      Last year, the most recent Ukrainian tank, Oplot-M, defeated the Russian T-90S in a Thai tender.
      As a result, a contract was signed for the supply of 200 Oplot-M tanks
      The first batch of tanks has already been produced and is being accepted by the Thai commission.
      1. The comment was deleted.
  • yanus
    yanus 1 June 2013 11: 40 New
    +2
    Impenetrable Ukrainian tanks, such impenetrable. So, "The last American A-10 attack aircraft left Europe" - http://topwar.ru/28791-poslednie-amerikanskie-shturmoviki-a-10-pokinuli-evropu.h
    tml
    They are apparently afraid that there will be no sense from the A-10 against Ukrainian tanks - they will not break through.
    With such harsh tanks, the globe of Ukraine is no longer a joke. Nafig conquer the whole world
    1. Corneli
      Corneli 1 June 2013 11: 51 New
      -1
      Quote: yanus
      Impenetrable Ukrainian tanks, such impenetrable. So, "The last American A-10 attack aircraft left Europe" - http://topwar.ru/28791-poslednie-amerikanskie-shturmoviki-a-10-pokinuli-evropu.h

      tml
      They are apparently afraid that there will be no sense from the A-10 against Ukrainian tanks - they will not break through.
      With such harsh tanks, the globe of Ukraine is no longer a joke. Nafig conquer the whole world

      Honestly ... why did you write this? 2 meaningless paragraphs ala Petrosyan wassat I would understand if Ukraine had at least a hint of aggressiveness or tanks would be bad (if you think are bad, then write something ... I’ll read it with pleasure.)
      1. Andrey57
        Andrey57 1 June 2013 13: 11 New
        +1
        Even if the development is not bad, then with a large staff turnover, as mentioned above, and the lack of experience in mass production for various reasons (lack of contracts, lack of funding, stupidity of the MO’s own leadership, etc.), degradation will be inevitable, as an example - sad the experience of delivering armored personnel carriers to Iraq, and in terms of time a lot of complaints and in quality even more, this is what distinguishes quality development from poor-quality production results, albeit for objective reasons, when good design thoughts Here can be crossed out by a low level of production or its complete absence. It’s a pity, of course, that such experience and traditions of tank building flow away like water in the sand.
  • gych
    gych 1 June 2013 12: 08 New
    +5
    as for me it’s a miracle that at least something wasn’t just left but the developer and graduate! not because the mind is lacking or the hands do not grow out of the shoulder, but because our UKRAINIAN ELITE don't give a shit about the defense! frying pan well done! well, maybe x @ yami meryats is enough! the only way to check the equipment in battle and God forbid that the Ukrainians and Russians look at each other through the triplexes as enemies!
    1. Truffoff
      Truffoff 1 June 2013 12: 11 New
      -1
      Quote: gych
      God forbid that Ukrainians and Russians would look at each other through triplexes as enemies!

      Therefore, when we begin to press NATO, you hide somewhere ...
      1. G_shock_
        G_shock_ 1 June 2013 12: 26 New
        +2
        I did not want to say this, but you, young man, have clearly an unhealthy psyche and perception of reality. You need to watch fewer videos on YouTube and read more books. It is unfortunate that some individuals of the Russian people have a heightened sense of hatred for the people around them.
        1. Truffoff
          Truffoff 1 June 2013 12: 39 New
          -3
          Quote: G_shock_
          clearly unhealthy psyche and perception of reality.

          With the psyche, the doctor said everything is fine. I have help laughing
          I just don’t understand: why on the Russian site foreign citizens advertise their products. Moreover, in my language. The CIA is completely insolent.
          1. Corneli
            Corneli 1 June 2013 12: 51 New
            +2
            Quote: Truffoff
            I just don’t understand: why on the Russian site foreign citizens advertise their products. Moreover, in my language. The CIA is completely insolent.

            At the bottom right, the button is "Report Site Violation." If the article, in your opinion, is violating something, click on it) If you just don’t like that on this “Russian” site articles appearing on “foreign products” (or, specifically, Ukrainian) are again all your wishes - the administration). And now .... now you just post some kind of nonsense (for a long time I tried to pick up the word more culturally, but I could not invent it ()
          2. builder
            builder 1 June 2013 20: 31 New
            -1
            Everything from Monday all articles only about t-72, t-90 (the list is attached ...) Articles about foreign technology are considered advertising and the machinations of the CIA! wink
            With the psyche, the doctor said everything is fine. I have help

            There are no healthy patients. There are under-examined! laughing
      2. Corneli
        Corneli 1 June 2013 12: 36 New
        -1
        Quote: Truffoff
        So when we begin to extrude you hide somewhere there

        It’s modestly even ... just to “press NATO”, let’s say right away: “when we take over the whole world ....!”
        1. Truffoff
          Truffoff 1 June 2013 13: 05 New
          -6
          Quote: Corneli
          that's when we take over the whole world ...

          It is tempting of course, but there is still enough territory.
          It would not hurt, of course, to occupy your Ukraine as a preventive measure, otherwise you will have to repulse it from the West.
          But it is impossible, driven by fathers and grandfathers: PEACE - PEACE.
  • Xroft
    Xroft 1 June 2013 12: 59 New
    +1
    Yes, to join eastern Ukraine and Crimea to Russia, and the issue has been resolved and Kharkov is with us and the competition is at the domestic level, and Westerners let the EU lick on further ....... Lviv is their capital, at the national level, if the vote is spent the whole east of Ukraine will voluntarily agree to join to the Russian Federation.
    1. Corneli
      Corneli 1 June 2013 13: 07 New
      -2
      Quote: Xroft
      at the national level, if a vote is taken to conduct the entire east of Ukraine, he voluntarily agrees to join the Russian Federation.

      No offense will be said ... but why did you get this? If in western Ukraine Russia is traditionally badly treated, but in eastern it’s good, that doesn’t mean that someone will immediately run to join ... For example: I am Ukrainian, my wife is Russian (there is living space and relatives in Russia), but we both live in Ukraine and somehow we’re not going to Russia yet ...
    2. Abakanets
      Abakanets 1 June 2013 13: 19 New
      -4
      And then we wonder: "Why do not we love Svidomo?"
      1. roial
        1 June 2013 13: 27 New
        -7
        So why love you? For constant attempts to both .. and on ..?
        1. Corneli
          Corneli 1 June 2013 19: 36 New
          +2
          1. NOT "Svidomo"! Ordinary Ukrainians! And “DON'T LOVE” (Pana Galichchans, usually “deceiving them with their sovereign power of mine”), please do not confuse and do not sculpt everyone and everything under one comb!
          Quote: Abakanets
          And then we wonder: "Why do not we love Svidomo?"

          2. You’ll recognize, dear compatriot, but “filter the market”, our state. The figures are already "neither ... I" take care of us (the people) more smartly and no more (and just drive them on brotherly people (even if they, like us, are fooled and poisoned by "relatives", it’s stupid not to respect ourselves .... although I understand ... infuriates ()
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Abakanets
    Abakanets 1 June 2013 13: 20 New
    +3
    It is necessary to cooperate with Ukrainian tank builders, in the USSR they were leading developers, and their ideas were ahead of the time by 20.
    1. svp67
      svp67 1 June 2013 13: 25 New
      +1
      Quote: Abakanets
      It is necessary to cooperate with Ukrainian tank builders, in the USSR they were leading developers, and their ideas were ahead of the time by 20.
      Alas, modern realities are such that Ukraine has become that "hole" through which everything "flows" into both China and the West ... So, it’s not a pity, but in this situation, we must distance ourselves from it. ..
      1. Kars
        Kars 1 June 2013 13: 32 New
        +4
        Well, yes, it doesn’t leak from Brazil (where they came together to do the type of air defense) or from Turkey)))
        1. svp67
          svp67 1 June 2013 13: 40 New
          -3
          Quote: Kars
          Well, yes, it doesn’t leak from Brazil (where they came together to do the type of air defense) or from Turkey)))
          With them, our country will not when not develop promising weapons. The biggest thing that will happen is the adjustment of the export version of the armament, to the realities of the industry of the partner country.
          1. Kars
            Kars 1 June 2013 13: 52 New
            +1
            Quote: svp67
            . The biggest thing that will happen is the adjustment of the export version of the armament to the realities of the industry of the partner country.

            Then no one will cooperate with you.
            1. svp67
              svp67 1 June 2013 14: 30 New
              -1
              Quote: Kars
              Then no one will cooperate with you.

              Yes, give up - cooperate. After all, they are going to cooperate in an area where they themselves have a complete blockage, and Russian samples, even export ones at the highest world level ...
              1. Kars
                Kars 1 June 2013 14: 32 New
                +5
                Quote: svp67
                Yes, give up - cooperate. After all, they are going to cooperate in an area where they themselves have a complete blockage, and Russian samples, even export ones at the highest world level ...

                And who is this? Do not include the Hindus, or do the Indians have Bramos, which is weaker than the Russian Bramos?
      2. roial
        1 June 2013 13: 36 New
        -1
        And what exactly do not specify?
        All that we sold was created in the USSR and Ukrainians took a direct part in this. After the collapse of the union, we, like all countries of the former union, received full right to dispose of this property. And all YOUR new developments flow into China and the West with the help of YOUR citizens.

        The Tverskoy District Court of Moscow sentenced Ilya Zaslavsky and his brother Alexander, a TNK-BP Management employee, to conditional imprisonment, finding them guilty of attempting to illegally obtain information constituting a trade secret and collecting information constituting a trade secret by bribery.

        The Moscow District Court of St. Petersburg sentenced Valery Oleinikov, an employee of the training center of Spark OJSC, to 6 months in prison, who transmitted information on the technology of repairing Mi-8 helicopters for sale to Iran.

        The Tagansky District Court of Moscow in a special order sentenced Ivan Shvagu, the former specialist of the telephone sales department of Rosgosstrakh-Stolitsa, to the year of the colony-settlement.
        1. svp67
          svp67 1 June 2013 13: 41 New
          0
          Quote: roial
          Moscow, a verskiy district court, sentenced Ilya Zaslavsky and his brother Alexander, a TNK-BP Management employee, to probation

          The difference between "individual" and "state" activities is huge ...
          1. roial
            1 June 2013 13: 53 New
            -2
            It makes no difference the facts of your citizens selling over a hill of new technologies is a proven fact, but selling Ukraine to China or the West of YOUR NEW TECHNOLOGIES is just your imagination.
    2. Corneli
      Corneli 1 June 2013 13: 32 New
      +3
      Quote: Abakanets
      It is necessary to cooperate with Ukrainian tank builders, in the USSR they were leading developers, and their ideas were ahead of the time by 20.

      There with all the desire for cooperation will not be. Firstly, the Ukrainian enterprise, recently opinions have become more frequent about the "hostility" of Ukraine, or at least unreliability (I think anyone can already see it by comments) And secondly, even if Kharkov, suddenly, by a wave of a magic wand would become Russian, it would not matter They would try to close ... There are T-90s and those who produce it, and they don’t need any "Bastions" !!! Himself need a denyuzhka! Right now, not the USSR and 2 MBT will not pull.
      1. svp67
        svp67 1 June 2013 13: 45 New
        +1
        Quote: Corneli
        Himself need a denyuzhka! Right now, not the USSR and 2 MBT no one will pull.
        But the alternative is the separation of duties, in which one of the plants will specialize in the production of tanks for export, do not you consider?
        1. Kars
          Kars 1 June 2013 13: 48 New
          +2
          With UVZ? This is not even funny. And is Omsk really small? How is it by the way?
          1. svp67
            svp67 1 June 2013 13: 52 New
            +1
            Quote: Kars
            With UVZ? This is not even funny. And is Omsk really small? How is it by the way?

            It works, not as surely as in the USSR, but it works - in the military sphere, repairing and modernizing the T80 and creating equipment based on it ...
            After all, it’s not sad, but t80, being an excellent machine, has no prospects in the export market ...
            1. Kars
              Kars 1 June 2013 14: 30 New
              +4
              Quote: svp67
              It works, not as sure as in the USSR, but it works

              Even very wrong. And you are still going to Kharkov to enter this consortium)))
              Quote: svp67
              After all, it’s not sad, but t80, being an excellent machine, has no prospects in the export market ...

              Why doesn’t it? This UVZ doesn’t see it. While the most developed country that bought Soviet tanks, South Korea chose the T-80U. And it’s too complicated for blacks.
              1. svp67
                svp67 1 June 2013 14: 36 New
                0
                Quote: Kars
                Even very wrong. And you are still going to Kharkov to enter this consortium)))

                Why? In the 2006 year, the Omsk plant was almost bankrupt, but already in the 2010 year a profit of 1,158 million rubles was made, and in the 2011 year 2,1 billion rubles. Unlike the Malyshev factory, which is currently experiencing not the best of times ...
                http://tehnoomsk.complexdoc.ru/355166.html
                1. Kars
                  Kars 1 June 2013 14: 39 New
                  +2
                  It was made bankrupt that UVZ would buy it, and profit indicators - as such, the Omsk Tank Plant and its design bureau no longer exist.
                  As regards Malyshev, it is not worth comparing the Russian Federation and Ukraine in this regard. You have more to cut, but the share of military profits in Omsk’s income structure would be interesting to know.
                  1. svp67
                    svp67 1 June 2013 14: 48 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Kars
                    as such, the Omsk Tank Plant and its design bureau are no longer there.

                    Yes, drop it, and this is from where
                    - BREM-80U

                    - PTS-4
                    1. Kars
                      Kars 1 June 2013 14: 53 New
                      +2
                      Are these tanks? Something is not similar as that.
                      1. svp67
                        svp67 1 June 2013 15: 03 New
                        0
                        Are these tanks? Something is not similar as that.

                        It's like that too
                      2. Kars
                        Kars 1 June 2013 17: 35 New
                        +1
                        This is an armored personnel carrier and what? I said that this is a tank?
                  2. Kars
                    Kars 1 June 2013 14: 55 New
                    +2
                    By the way, what would Bremen do to Kharkov with UVZ?
                    http://www.morozov.com.ua/rus/body/brem.php
                    1. svp67
                      svp67 1 June 2013 15: 10 New
                      0
                      Quote: Kars
                      By the way, what would Bremen do to Kharkov with UVZ?

                      I’m embarrassed to ask, but still a strongly armored repair and recovery vehicle BREM Athlete helped the plant named after Malyshev get out of the crisis? And how many have already been produced and delivered?
                    2. Kars
                      Kars 1 June 2013 17: 37 New
                      +3
                      Quote: svp67
                      I’m embarrassed to ask, but still a strongly armored repair and recovery vehicle BREM Athlete helped the plant named after Malyshev get out of the crisis? And how many have already been produced and delivered?

                      Must go complete with Thai Bastions.
                      And I’ll make a counter question about how you are mass-produced? And how much state money it took to UVZ. (Where did they get to Omsk from)
          2. svp67
            svp67 1 June 2013 14: 42 New
            +1
            Quote: Kars
            Why not? This UVZ does not see her.
            Yes, because the price of the T80 GTD is much higher, both during purchase and during operation, in comparison with the T72 and T90, and the fighting qualities are almost identical ...

            Quote: Kars
            While the most developed country that bought Soviet tanks, South Korea chose the T-80U

            The Republic of Korea did not buy them directly - these were supplies to pay off USSR debts. They chose the best tank produced in Russia at that time, we couldn’t sell them to the T80UD, because under the terms of the contract we also served them for some time ...
            1. Kars
              Kars 1 June 2013 14: 50 New
              +1
              Quote: svp67
              Yes, because the price of the T80 GTE is much higher, both during purchase and during operation, in comparison with the T72 and T90, and the combat qualities are almost identical ..

              You flatter the T-72 and T-90, they reached the T-80U level only on the T-90A, and that’s only because they didn’t spend much money on upgrading the T-80, deciding to go along the cost-effective way of creating the T-90, so trodden on the spot for 20 years.
              Quote: svp67
              The Republic of Korea did not buy them directly - these were supplies to pay off USSR debts.

              And vet money could take more 72 on a bowl, but as you can see they were not interested. And a good tank, not necessarily cheap, unless of course we are talking about a total war like WWII
              1. svp67
                svp67 1 June 2013 15: 00 New
                0
                Quote: Kars
                And vet money could take more 72 on a bowl, but as you can see they were not interested. And a good tank, not necessarily cheap, unless of course we are talking about a total war like WWII


                The armament of the Cypriot army is the 41 combat vehicle of this type (contract value - 175 million dollars). The South Korean army delivered 80 T-80U tanks to repay Russian debt to this country.

                They have enough other tanks, including their own development. And so I think that acquaintance with T80 was by no means superfluous ...
                1. Kars
                  Kars 1 June 2013 17: 39 New
                  +3
                  Quote: svp67
                  They have enough other tanks, including their own development. And so I think that acquaintance with the T80 was by no means superfluous to them.

                  But it’s not clear why you said that.
                  Quote: Kars
                  Why doesn’t it? This UVZ doesn’t see it. While the most developed country that bought Soviet tanks, South Korea chose the T-80U. And it’s too complicated for blacks.

                  Something tells me that external contracts with the T-80 were before the UVZ became a monopolist.
                  1. svp67
                    svp67 1 June 2013 17: 54 New
                    0
                    Quote: Kars
                    But it’s not clear why you said that.

                    And besides, Korea itself was becoming a tank designer at that time, and familiarization with models of equipment of the leading powers was not superfluous. As far as I know, at first the Koreans had big problems with the operation of our machines. At the initial stage, several engines were disabled, but then everything became more or less normal.
                  2. Kars
                    Kars 1 June 2013 17: 56 New
                    +1
                    And this is against the background of the fact that for some reason they did not need them to familiarize themselves with the T-72.
                  3. svp67
                    svp67 1 June 2013 17: 59 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Kars
                    And this is against the background of the fact that for some reason they did not need them to familiarize themselves with the T-72.

                    I will repeat again:
                    They chose the best tank produced in Russia at that time.

                    But after that a lot of water had already leaked. at the moment they would choose T90MS ...
                  4. Kars
                    Kars 1 June 2013 18: 13 New
                    +2
                    Lsk production, T-80 tanks from the USSR, also repeatedly politely declined. Former adversaries from NATO were no less interested in new technology, although only in single pieces. The Russian "Spetsvneshtekhnika" readily went forward.

                    In 1992, one T-80U was sold to the United Kingdom, complete with one 2S6M Tunguska air defense system and the corresponding ammunition. The price of $ 10,7 million paid for revealing the secrets of our most modern machine, for competitors, you can count a pretty penny


                    Quote: svp67
                    They chose the best tank produced in Russia at that time.

                    Then managed to persuade South Korea to accept T-80U tanks on account of Soviet debt. According to official figures, in 1996 Russia announced the export of 33 tanks, and the Republic of Korea confirmed the import of 6 vehicles in 1996 and 1997 more in early January 27.

                    T-90s have already been produced.

                    Quote: svp67
                    But after that a lot of water had already leaked. at the moment they would choose T90MS ...
                    Something I doubt it. But there is already no answer to receive.
  • Corneli
    Corneli 1 June 2013 16: 19 New
    0
    Quote: svp67
    But the alternative is the separation of duties, in which one of the plants will specialize in the production of tanks for export, do not you consider?

    If you do not take into account all your polemics with Kars) I will simply answer NO !!! In Russia, even domestic and necessary (and even relatively disjoint, according to some theorems))) MiG and SU, KA and MI are at war! And then the "outdated" tanks! Yes, and Ukrainian (even if they Tipo suddenly become Russian, they still will not forget)) Loot, this is a terrible thing and do not forget, they mainly sold T-72s, (T-90s), and they will modernize them accordingly (which Ukraine is doing now ... including), the T-80 of various modifications (comparable with the UVZ line) isn’t sold so much ... Well, who will be involved in the “export”?) UVZ will just give VERY a lot of money for “beautiful eyes” (service, modernization) Kharkov? Or, on the contrary, it will allow Kharkiv citizens to develop and produce for Russia (eastern Ukraine, hypothetically, it seems like ALREADY in Russia)) MBT?) I think any adult person himself will understand that NO !!!
  • vjhbc
    vjhbc 1 June 2013 13: 21 New
    +3
    I would like to know why the article is negative (although I assume that it is only for Ukraine). Now further on the attacks they are more like fool itself than objective analysis and further the Kharkov tank factory is the best in the USSR and they say that it’s bad and his products are also bad only because he is not very good in Ukraine
    1. Alexander D.
      Alexander D. 1 June 2013 19: 58 New
      -3
      I don’t want to politicize, but the article is negative because it is written about the development of Ukrainian industry. And how is it possible to develop industry in Ukraine, if they are not in the Customs Union and the Collective Security Treaty Organization, and they should have been sitting there in Ukraine for a long time without heating to light the stoves with the last lard.
      This is not what I came up with - these are comments from visitors to this site from Russia.
  • sergey158-29
    sergey158-29 1 June 2013 14: 55 New
    +6
    Quote: vjhbc
    ... Kharkov tank factory is the best in the USSR and to say that it is bad and its products are also bad only because it is not very good in Ukraine


    I support, on posting, in my purely personal opinion, the Kharkov plant with its revolutionary T-64 is the best tank city, maybe it was (I would not want to) with a word ... the article is good, but if you follow the logic of some young men with the Russian flag, then we can say that the T-72 and its modifications are a "weak likeness" of the T-64, since it was the first ...

    Now, essentially, thanks / contrary to the Russian Federation in Ukraine:
    - mastered the production of the necessary modern artillery systems and tank shots
    - production of improved sighting systems has been established
    - developed modular armor - in tower defense designs
    - developed a fundamentally new (compared to Russian) complex DZ "knife"
    - the original active protection complex (KAZ) "Barrier" was developed
    - Improved the complex of optical-electronic suppression "Guard"

    so comrades have something to be proud of, and you need to know, study, and maybe take and improve ...
    1. svp67
      svp67 1 June 2013 17: 56 New
      0
      Quote: sergey158-29
      - mastered the production of the necessary modern artillery systems and tank shots
      - production of improved sighting systems has been established
      - developed modular armor - in tower defense designs
      - developed a fundamentally new (compared to Russian) complex DZ "knife"
      - the original active protection complex (KAZ) "Barrier" was developed
      - Improved the complex of optical-electronic suppression "Guard"


      None of the above are purely Ukrainian developments, all this still has Soviet counterparts ...
    2. Avenger711
      Avenger711 1 June 2013 20: 52 New
      +2
      So what? Someone is buying theirs “knife”? All Russian DZ take.

      The T-64 disgraced itself throughout the Union and its fate, unlike "its miserable likenesses," is sad.

      There is already no armored production in Ukraine.
      1. Corneli
        Corneli 1 June 2013 20: 56 New
        +1
        Quote: Avenger711
        There is already no armored production in Ukraine.

        Infa 100ka !!! SAM Avenger711 said !!! And he, at least, is an adviser to GDP on sales of Russian military equipment ..
    3. Grigorich 1962
      Grigorich 1962 6 June 2013 11: 02 New
      0
      Yes, no one pleads with the merits of Kharkov tank builders. Well, here's what about the cooperation of the Russian Federation and Ukraine in the field of tracked vehicles, nothing is heard .... but in vain .... by the joint efforts of engineers and designers, all myriads and Abrams could wipe their noses for a long time.
  • individual
    individual 1 June 2013 15: 10 New
    0
    The author of the publication called himself, Author Andrey © BTVT.narod.ru
    At the beginning of his article he writes that about politics is not a word.
    But read its text:
    "KBM2 gun design meets NATO standards and is operated with all types of NATO standard 120mm caliber ammunition. "
    “The HCBM’s interesting development is the bicaliber (the execution of the barrel and breech elements allows quick installation of trunks of various calibers of 120 and 140 mm). Taking into account the developed AZ, located in the tower’s niche, this will create a tank with great modernization potential. 30- mm automatic guns ZTM1 and ZTM2 (similar in basic characteristics to Russian 2A72 and 2A42).
    Thus, everything as in independent Ukraine is part in Russia, part in NATO.
    Politics, economics and its derivative weapons are inseparable from the real situation of Ukraine.
    There was such a joke:
    God built the peasants and says: "Who lived with women go to the right to Paradise, who man and man go to the left to Hell." And one turns, rushes, God asks: "What's the matter"? A man replies: "God, but who lived with a donkey, where he will go."
    It is time for Ukraine to find its place in the world.
    1. Kars
      Kars 1 June 2013 17: 41 New
      +1
      Quote: individ
      "The design of the KBM2 gun meets NATO standards and

      You Msta S can also be armed with a tool of the NATO standard - will you draw similar conclusions?
      1. svp67
        svp67 1 June 2013 19: 06 New
        +1
        Quote: Kars
        You Msta S can also be armed with a tool of the NATO standard - will you draw similar conclusions?

        But NONA and VIENNA can use NATO ammunition ... the same can be concluded ...
        1. Kars
          Kars 1 June 2013 20: 19 New
          +1
          Quote: svp67
          NONA and VIENNA can use NATO ammunition ... the same can be concluded ...

          This to
          Quote: individ
          Thus, everything as in independent Ukraine is part in Russia, part in NATO.
  • Sashko07
    Sashko07 1 June 2013 15: 32 New
    -4
    Quote: Truffoff
    What do you always whine.

    Who whines, you yourself started this discussion at the beginning of the topic, and now you are shouting "what are you whining".
  • philosopher
    philosopher 1 June 2013 16: 05 New
    +3
    An article, let me say, is not bad ... But, I don’t want to say that.
    I read comments on this or another article: Russians “drive” the Ukrainians, Ukrainians “drive” the Russians, instead of searching for ideas of understanding and rapprochement, only foolishness and hostility! And the insoluble dilemma arises: who are we all? Formerly a large and branched oak tree, temporarily chopped up by a hurricane? And, if you fasten the branches, fill them with garden varieties and wind them with burlap, then a mighty tree may come to life. (Let not all 15, but at least a few "lost sheep" return to their former home). Or are we still halves of a cut apple? They are, after all, how much not sculpt one to the other, but they will never be able to grow together, but they will only rot separately.
    1. andrey_sk
      andrey_sk 1 June 2013 17: 20 New
      0
      Neither one nor the other. Just different nations with different interests.
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 1 June 2013 21: 01 New
        +1
        Quote: andrey_sk
        Neither one nor the other. Just different nations with different interests.
        For the most part, the people in Russia and Ukraine are one, artificially divided by politicians.
      2. Cat
        Cat 2 June 2013 00: 04 New
        +1
        Quote: andrey_sk
        Neither one nor the other. Just different nations with different interests.

        please do not confuse the interests of peoples - with the interests of the so-called "elites".
        In ancient times, every king who respected himself or there the prince considered it his duty, having packed himself in armor and mounted a war horse, gallop at the head of the army towards the enemy. And the heirs rode alongside. And the current rulers and their offspring? Oh well. And this concerns not only ours with yours ... The same neutral countries like Switzerland - why are they so neutral? And because absolutely all rulers need a place where they can keep stolen over the years of rule. For politics, and especially war, is such a thing, it can turn around: today it’s the tsar, and tomorrow it’s overthrown / conquered / not re-elected, and I’d like to eat tasty food today, tomorrow, and the day after tomorrow, and it would be nice for the kids to leave sweets on sweets . Therefore, the current rulers are ready to sell the interests of the country in general and the people in particular. All rulers without exception - the difference is only in the price of the issue.
  • philosopher
    philosopher 1 June 2013 16: 19 New
    0
    The article, of course, is not bad ... But this is not what I want to say.
    I periodically read comments on various topics: either the Russians “drive” the Ukrainians, or the Ukrainians “drive” the Russians. Instead of looking for common ground and mutual understanding, one is foolishness, mutual claims and confrontation.
    The question arises: who are we all? Cracked branches of a large oak tree chopped by a rushing hurricane? But they can be poured with garden var, wrapped in burlap, fixed. And maybe they will grow together, and again a mighty tree will delight the world with its existence. (Though not all 15, but at least a few "lost sheep" will be the first to return to their father's house). Or, perhaps, we are halves of a cut apple, which no matter how much you sculpt one to another, but they will never be whole alone, they will both rot, albeit separately.
    What do you think people?
    1. Taurus
      Taurus 1 June 2013 17: 38 New
      -3
      Quote: philosopher
      The article, of course, is not bad ... But this is not what I want to say.
      I periodically read comments on various topics: either the Russians “drive” the Ukrainians, or the Ukrainians “drive” the Russians. Instead of looking for common ground and mutual understanding, one is foolishness, mutual claims and confrontation.
      The question arises: who are we all? Cracked branches of a large oak tree chopped by a rushing hurricane? But they can be poured with garden var, wrapped in burlap, fixed. And maybe they will grow together, and again a mighty tree will delight the world with its existence. (Though not all 15, but at least a few "lost sheep" will be the first to return to their father's house). Or, perhaps, we are halves of a cut apple, which no matter how much you sculpt one to another, but they will never be whole alone, they will both rot, albeit separately.
      What do you think people?

      Super said
    2. O_RUS
      O_RUS 1 June 2013 23: 00 New
      -2
      Quote: philosopher
      What do you think people?


      Born in Kiev. Now I travel a lot around Russia.

      ... I want unity

      ,,, unlikely to be a union
  • philosopher
    philosopher 1 June 2013 16: 20 New
    +1
    I apologize twice. There is some kind of idiotic defense climbing. I don’t know what is perceived and what is not ...
  • philosopher
    philosopher 1 June 2013 16: 23 New
    -1
    I apologize twice. There is some kind of idiotic defense climbing. You will not understand when it receives a message, but when it does not perceive.
    It’s not very difficult for me to manage a computer.
  • Corneli
    Corneli 1 June 2013 17: 25 New
    -4
    Quote: Truffoff
    What did you do with your tanks to a nuclear power?
    Build, invent, design as much as you want,
    we will pick it up later. laughing

    From honestly, if this miracle is not banned ... I’ll dump it from here!) Inadequate troll ... and that’s all .. and what for then write about the "rules" of the site !?) Hey, get warm in your "sandbox" ....
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. Corneli
        Corneli 2 June 2013 01: 07 New
        -3
        Quote: Truffoff
        DON'T BAN. laughing Well, nobody holds you here.
        Learn English. Or German. And not horseradish on Runet.
        show your Geyropeysky stigma. Good luck !!!
        Retrain on ABramsy)))

        They won’t be banned, and it’s wonderful, but then it’s inappropriately “noodles” to listen to the rules of the site for everyone, you will se scribble your posts and be happy)
  • Taurus
    Taurus 1 June 2013 17: 36 New
    0
    The philosopher is really wise
  • GEO
    GEO 1 June 2013 17: 51 New
    0
    , in fact there is only one thing - you are all delinquent ... whether! Go to the geyropu, arrange geyparads at your place, kiss the bender with Shukhevych in the ass, despise the Russian language and history at the state level, dance to the tune of zapadentsev ...
    I’m not special in tanks, but tell me, as an amateur, how many tanks are produced by Ukraine per year and how many are put into service?
    Yes, by the way, do not forget to enlighten me about the Victory Parade in Kiev this year.
    You lay under the banderlog. Shame on you?!
    1. Abakanets
      Abakanets 1 June 2013 18: 10 New
      +2
      Watch less than the first channel and NTV, in Ukraine nifiga does not infringe on the Russian language, because it is taught throughout the country, even in “fascist” Lviv almost everyone speaks fluent Russian, and there they will not give you a mug for it. You take too much on yourself.
      1. xan
        xan 3 June 2013 00: 35 New
        0
        Quote: Abakanets
        Less watch the first channel and NTV,

        In love with Ukraine?
        Watch Russian channels about Ukraine and Ukrainian channels about Russia and draw a conclusion.
        Or read our Internet and them.
        Stop writing such nonsense.
  • roial
    1 June 2013 17: 56 New
    -8
    Well, actually, gay parades are held in Russia, I didn’t notice something.
    By the number of gayes, pid..sov and democrats you are ahead of the rest.
  • GEO
    GEO 1 June 2013 18: 00 New
    0
    Quote: philosopher
    The article, of course, is not bad ... But this is not what I want to say.
    I periodically read comments on various topics: either the Russians “drive” the Ukrainians, or the Ukrainians “drive” the Russians. Instead of looking for common ground and mutual understanding, one is foolishness, mutual claims and confrontation.
    The question arises: who are we all? Cracked branches of a large oak tree chopped by a rushing hurricane? But they can be poured with garden var, wrapped in burlap, fixed. And maybe they will grow together, and again a mighty tree will delight the world with its existence. (Though not all 15, but at least a few "lost sheep" will be the first to return to their father's house). Or, perhaps, we are halves of a cut apple, which no matter how much you sculpt one to another, but they will never be whole alone, they will both rot, albeit separately.
    What do you think people?

    Learn the story carefully - your mother. The whole problem is that Ukraine now consists of 2 parts. One - east, southeast, northeast and Crimea, these are our brothers. The center hesitates, for there are many Jews in Kiev. And here, the West, these are not Ukrainians (Little Russians), these are Poles, Hungarians, Romanians, etc. etc. This is an artificial creation of the Austro-Hungarian General Staff. But they are arrogant, persistent and guttural. And ours follow their lead like fools. In the West, there is nothing but the Carpathians, and ours has all the industry, but ours pay banderlogs.
    Sorry for the confusion ...
    1. Kars
      Kars 1 June 2013 18: 01 New
      +1
      Quote: GEO
      that Ukraine now consists of 2 parts. One - east, southeast, northeast and Crimea, these are our brothers

      Who feeds you such nonsense?
      1. Abakanets
        Abakanets 1 June 2013 18: 12 New
        -1
        Do not pay attention to the wretched, they themselves kindle oschr.
      2. roial
        1 June 2013 18: 14 New
        -5
        They come up with something - they assert themselves.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. artem772
      artem772 1 June 2013 20: 04 New
      +4
      Quote: GEO
      This is an artificial creation of the Austro-Hungarian General Staff.

      wassat wassat wassat
  • Truffoff
    Truffoff 1 June 2013 18: 05 New
    -7
    ATTENTION!!
    I turn on the counter "Ukrainians":
    "+" - your own,
    "-" cool.
    Do not pass by comrades, press, press !!
    Buttons do not confuse!
    Now we find out who owns this site.
    1. Kars
      Kars 1 June 2013 18: 24 New
      +1
      Put a minus - are you satisfied?
    2. Corneli
      Corneli 1 June 2013 19: 21 New
      -3
      Quote: Truffoff
      I turn on the counter "Ukrainians":
      "+" - your own,
      "-" cool.
      Do not pass by comrades, press, press !!
      Buttons do not confuse!
      Now we find out who owns this site.

      -2 you are "insane", purposefully inciting "Ukrainophobia" on this resource, out of the blue, without any adequately sound comments ... Stupidly HATE
      1. Truffoff
        Truffoff 1 June 2013 20: 02 New
        -2
        Quote: Corneli
        purposefully inciting "Ukrainophobia" on this resource


        "Ukrainophobia" kindle you yourself. Tell me how?
        1. "Ukraine wants the EU"
        2. "Ukraine is fighting for NATO"
        3. "Ukraine prohibits the Russian language"
        4. "Ukraine is stealing our gas"
        5. "Ukraine holds SS parades"
        6. "Ukraine arrests our fleet"
        7. "Ukraine puts monuments to Bandera"
        Is it enough?
        I foresee counterarguments: "The media carries nonsense,"
        "The government is nonsense."
        And nothing depends on you, and no one asks you
        how to live and where to go.
        Well this is point number 8. Foremost.
        Why am I telling you this? See item No. 8.
        1. Corneli
          Corneli 1 June 2013 20: 09 New
          -1
          Quote: Truffoff
          "Ukrainophobia" kindle you yourself. Tell me how?
          1. "Ukraine wants the EU"
          2. "Ukraine is fighting for NATO"
          3. "Ukraine prohibits the Russian language"
          4. "Ukraine is stealing our gas"
          5. "Ukraine holds SS parades"
          6. "Ukraine arrests our fleet"
          7. "Ukraine puts monuments to Bandera"
          Is it enough?

          And now without p ... well ... At least one of my post where I campaigned your points! If you do not find those (I PERSONALLY SURE IN HIM !!!) Guess who you are? And what do you do?
          1. Truffoff
            Truffoff 1 June 2013 20: 19 New
            +2
            Quote: Corneli
            At least one of my post where I campaigned your items


            And what exactly do you mean? Do you take responsibility for the whole nation?
            You are only a small knock knock:
            Quote: Corneli
            SO!!! “Violation” is, to put it mildly, nowhere more obvious, I threw the 5-7 clock back !!! Nu-Nu, let's see how the "rules of the site" are observed here)

            As if it would help you laughing
            1. Corneli
              Corneli 1 June 2013 21: 18 New
              -7
              Quote: Truffoff
              And what exactly do you mean? Do you take responsibility for the whole nation?
              You are only a small knock knock:

              I can take responsibility for myself and for my children (minors), in all other cases I transmit my subjective opinion based on personal (again subjective) observations ... and no more. And to you personally, I advise you occasionally to read your questions and comments, otherwise you see in the heat you forget where it comes from fasting ... As for the "tuk-tuks," I just keep silent ... You know better)
              Quote: Truffoff
              As if it would help you laughing

              It’s not a fact for me to normal people, including your compatriots, it’s quite possible that at least one inadequate troll account will become less ... maybe)
        2. Alexander D.
          Alexander D. 1 June 2013 20: 20 New
          -2
          Ukraine itself determines its foreign policy without your permission.
          Ukraine has not fought with anyone under the flags of NATO, and even more so personally with you.
          There are 1500 Russian-speaking schools in Ukraine, and about 30 Ukrainian-speaking schools in Russia - who forbids whose language?
          And how much gas have you personally stolen?
          Not Ukraine holds SS parades, but individual parties. You generally have the Nazis walking in the streets and throwing a "zig".
          Ukraine does not arrest anyone's fleet - they came to visit, sit quietly and observe the rules and laws of the owner of the house.
          Ukraine erects monuments to its heroes - with you, Catherine 2 is considered one of the best empresses, and with us she would be torn to pieces for decades of serfdom. Each country has its own heroes.
          1. Truffoff
            Truffoff 1 June 2013 20: 41 New
            +2
            With us, NOBODY WILL NEVER PROHIBIT anyone's language, the concept of language prohibition is completely absent.
            28 deminers in Afghanistan what are they doing?
            We didn’t get enough gas, but haven’t you paid for it yet?
            Do you erect monuments to your HEROES of Bandera?
            All parades are authorized by the government, let it be known to you.
            And if they pass, it’s allowed by someone from above.
            Rules and laws of the landlord? Who is your landlord?
            Whose rules and laws are these? Have you thought about it?
            1. Alexander D.
              Alexander D. 1 June 2013 20: 55 New
              -5
              28 sappers in Afghanistan do not shoot at civilian Iskanders, but make sure that some shepherd is not blown up by Soviet mines, which at one time sold bureaucrats from Russia there.
              Ukraine pays for gas deliveries on time with the Russian Federation, and I don’t know how much they personally haven’t given to you, ask this question about GDP.
              Each country has its own heroes.
              In Ukraine, parades are sanctioned by local prosecutors and the courts.
              The Autonomous Republic of Crimea is a part of Ukraine and the foreign policy of Crimea is also determined by the government of Ukraine.
              1. Truffoff
                Truffoff 1 June 2013 21: 07 New
                +4
                1. Bandera your heroes !!! You from this, I look, do not even refuse.
                2.And all the same, the SS parades allowed the authorities. From this, too, do not refuse.
                For a long time to argue. These two points are enough for the development of persistent Ukrainophobia. There are still questions who is here:
                Quote: Corneli
                inciting "Ukrainophobia" on this resource
                1. Corneli
                  Corneli 2 June 2013 01: 35 New
                  -5
                  Quote: Truffoff
                  1. Bandera your heroes !!! You from this, I look, do not even refuse.
                  2.And all the same, the SS parades allowed the authorities. From this, too, do not refuse.
                  For a long time to argue. These two points are enough for the development of persistent Ukrainophobia. There are still questions who is here:
                  Quote: Corneli
                  inciting "Ukrainophobia" on this resource

                  1. If you really VERY want to believe in it - believe it! This will not become true, well, at least you will be pleased)
                  2. Hmm, say SS? ... well I haven’t heard, I haven’t seen, but I believe ... (and by the way, why do you have gays running around the cities every year? Are they forbidden to them, like? Or are they "naughty"?)
                  P.S. For persistent "Ukrainophobia" on this resource, you don’t need to do anything ... you already had it. And where did it come from, this is a completely different topic, hardly related to the article about Ukrainian tanks ...
            2. Kars
              Kars 1 June 2013 21: 21 New
              +1
              Quote: Truffoff
              We didn’t get enough gas, but haven’t you paid for it yet?

              Are you not aware that we work on a prepaid basis?
            3. Corneli
              Corneli 2 June 2013 01: 28 New
              -4
              Quote: Truffoff
              With us, NOBODY WILL NEVER PROHIBIT anyone's language, the concept of language prohibition is completely absent.
              28 deminers in Afghanistan what are they doing?
              We didn’t get enough gas, but haven’t you paid for it yet?
              Do you erect monuments to your HEROES of Bandera?
              All parades are authorized by the government, let it be known to you.
              And if they pass, it’s allowed by someone from above.
              Rules and laws of the landlord? Who is your landlord?
              Whose rules and laws are these? Have you thought about it?

              1. And? And in Ukraine, Tipo "banned" anyone's language?
              2. apparently mines are cleared, they are there "good" in bulk, but apparently this, in your opinion, is a terrible crime!
              3.Do you have enough gas? Is it possible in more detail? I thought in Russia it’s all right with gas ...
              4. No. On offs, they are not heroes, but if someone puts ... well, in the world there are many who put something (or try), if I find data that some thugs in Russia put a statue of the devil, is that all? All of Russia automatically fall into the rank of "Satanists"?
              5. All parades are authorized by the "local authorities", including you.
              6. These very "local authorities" (and there are different people there)
              7. Well, you, too, are not you, dear, and glory to those Lord!
              8. Laws of a specific country (in this case, Ukraine)
              I tried modestly to answer ... you, dear, below, my nickname was mentioned)
        3. The comment was deleted.
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. O_RUS
              O_RUS 2 June 2013 06: 39 New
              +1
              Quote: Truffoff
              they have something to lose.


              yes there is something to lose ...

              I’m a Kiev citizen myself and would like to live in a strong and united country ... but for now, alas, maybe not when ....
              1. Truffoff
                Truffoff 2 June 2013 06: 48 New
                -1
                Quote: O_RUS
                but for now, alas, maybe more when ....

                Hold on bro!
                You can always get dual citizenship. Just in case.
                Until it settles down.
                1. Kars
                  Kars 2 June 2013 08: 54 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Truffoff
                  Hold on bro!

                  Quote: Truffoff
                  I’m not alone either, this one was created specifically for Okhlov.

                  Sounds like talking to yourself?
                2. Corneli
                  Corneli 2 June 2013 08: 56 New
                  -1
                  Quote: Truffoff
                  Hold on bro!
                  You can always get dual citizenship. Just in case.
                  Until it settles down.

                  Dual citizenship in Ukraine is prohibited
                  1. Truffoff
                    Truffoff 2 June 2013 13: 51 New
                    0
                    Quote: Corneli
                    Dual citizenship in Ukraine is prohibited

                    Poor fools will not let you anywhere laughing .
                    Do not let in and out. Afraid that the infection will spread?
                    Or that the whole country will move together.
                    And let's annul Ukraine as a state. We will declare it a global resort area. Girls, sea, sun ... What tanks? Smelted on yachts and boats. Assign all gaster for life to the place of work.
                    Abolish borders. We will come to you with the whole world and relax.
                    Why do you need any kind of statehood? You will be like old freestyle Cossacks. And then we will figure it out with the geyropa. Think.
                3. O_RUS
                  O_RUS 2 June 2013 09: 39 New
                  +1
                  Sorry ... but it will not settle down

                  Take a look at how an “adequate Ukrainian” reacts to our communication. You are Russian and I am a crest

                  If a geyopa, with the same regularity, "blows his ears" to my homeland ...
                  ...it's only the beginning...

                  Truffoff, and if you look from the other side - such Ukrainian minusers are very convenient for Ukraine - they talk a lot, boil over here on the site, steal Russian and again return to a measured life, that is, to sleep crap
                  1. roma2
                    roma2 2 June 2013 18: 24 New
                    -4
                    Well, where can you shit about it in your blood in this, no one can compare with you, the proof is a gon on this site.
              2. Alexander D.
                Alexander D. 2 June 2013 11: 41 New
                -5
                Quote: O_RUS

                yes there is something to lose ...

                I’m a Kiev citizen myself and would like to live in a strong and united country ... but for now, alas, maybe not when ....

                So what is the problem - a suitcase, a train station, Russia! good
                1. O_RUS
                  O_RUS 2 June 2013 18: 02 New
                  0
                  Quote: Alexander D.
                  So what is the problem - a suitcase, a train station, Russia!


                  ... sorted out? ... letters merge?
                  Inadequate actions will not bring to good
        4. Oleg
          Oleg 4 June 2013 16: 16 New
          0
          A siligerian man ...
  • Avenger711
    Avenger711 1 June 2013 18: 30 New
    0
    We are waiting for Khlopotov with analysis.
    1. family
      family tree 2 June 2013 01: 25 New
      +2
      Khlopotov, the same biased advertising agent, like Tarasenko, on whose behalf the article is, only on the other hand. I do not think that there will be anything new in the comments, there will be exactly the same arguments and facts. And at the expense of Khlopotov’s article, take Tarasenko’s article and change the T-84 to the T-90 and vice versa. Leave the same comments, I’ve already read the tenth time, hoping to see something new, but alas request
      1. Avenger711
        Avenger711 2 June 2013 14: 24 New
        0
        I have no reason not to trust Khlopotov, since everything is confirmed by the supply of equipment, both to our own aircraft and abroad. The successes of Ukraine are close to zero. By the way, what was there in Peru? Tantrums from the Ukrainian side, and as a result, nobody except T-90, and if anyone gets a contract, then only UVZ.
        1. Avenger711
          Avenger711 2 June 2013 21: 42 New
          -1
          Here is the evidence from the Ukrainian battle trolls.
  • Nik One
    Nik One 1 June 2013 18: 46 New
    0
    An old fairy tale about the mighty Bastion))))
  • sergey158-29
    sergey158-29 1 June 2013 18: 56 New
    0
    [quote = svp67] [/ quote]
    None of the above are purely Ukrainian developments, all this still has Soviet counterparts ... [/ quote]

    Then ESPECIALLY must be said that Russia also has “all this still has Soviet counterparts,” although it was written in black in Russian WHAT:
    - no tank guns
    - no fire control systems
    - and much more was not produced in Ukraine ...
    1. svp67
      svp67 1 June 2013 20: 04 New
      +2
      Quote: sergey158-29
      Then ESPECIALLY must be said that Russia also has “all this still has Soviet counterparts,” although it was written in black in Russian WHAT:
      - no tank guns
      - no fire control systems
      - and much more was not produced in Ukraine ...

      As a result, they took Soviet samples and established their production at the factories of the military-industrial complex of the former Union ...
      And Russia is still using the Soviet backlog, although the T-50 is already RUSSIAN ...
      1. Corneli
        Corneli 1 June 2013 20: 11 New
        -3
        Quote: svp67
        although the T-50 is already RUSSIAN ...

        Is it a TANK?) Probably brand new?
        1. svp67
          svp67 1 June 2013 20: 31 New
          +1
          Quote: Corneli
          Is it a TANK?) Probably brand new?

          No, this is a new aircraft, due to the production of which it will be possible to create a new filling for new and old Russian tanks ...
          What about you?
          1. Corneli
            Corneli 1 June 2013 20: 54 New
            -2
            Quote: svp67
            No, this is a new aircraft, due to the production of which it will be possible to create a new filling for new and old Russian tanks ...
            What about you?

            Hmm, I thought you’d understand the “irony”, it happened, it happened (sometimes the article as a whole was not devoted to tanks?). And about the "filling", well, xs ... the Indians know better, they took the T-90 ... and the T-50 ... they take ... and some Amer helicopters, Israeli air defense, French fighters .... (They are strange , these Indians (((
          2. Kars
            Kars 1 June 2013 21: 07 New
            +1
            Quote: svp67
            What about you?

            Why do we need such problems? You have to compete with the Yankees, and the money has nowhere else to go.
      2. roma2
        roma2 2 June 2013 18: 25 New
        -1
        not a fact half amers washed
  • Matt eversmann
    Matt eversmann 1 June 2013 20: 09 New
    +2
    The developments are not bad, but I did not see anything fundamentally new. Ukraine, these projects are on the drum, we have enough of our own. Perhaps these developments will be of interest to the Arab countries.
  • Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 1 June 2013 20: 13 New
    -1
    Garni tanks, garni slam. And then sho steal technology, so well now is not stealing !?
    1. Alexander D.
      Alexander D. 1 June 2013 20: 29 New
      -5
      They do not steal in Russia, but simply and honestly sell them to the Chinese, and everything is clean - from planes to submarines!
  • GEO
    GEO 1 June 2013 20: 18 New
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    Quote: GEO
    that Ukraine now consists of 2 parts. One - east, southeast, northeast and Crimea, these are our brothers

    Who feeds you such nonsense?

    Eyes are given yes to see, and ears to hear ... And the brain, by the way, to think ... I was on your Wed ... th maidan in 2004. I saw, thanks, brothers ...
    1. Kars
      Kars 1 June 2013 21: 08 New
      +5
      Quote: GEO
      I was on your Wed ... oh maidan in 2004. I saw, thanks, brothers ...

      Yours on the swamp.
      And the fact that you imagine yourself is your problem and the psychiatrist.
    2. O_RUS
      O_RUS 2 June 2013 06: 22 New
      +3
      Quote: GEO
      I was on your Wed ... oh maidan in 2004. I saw, thanks, brothers ...


      You were in 2004 and I live in Kiev. Unfortunately, what you mention is there.
    3. xan
      xan 3 June 2013 11: 39 New
      -2
      Quote: GEO
      Saw, thanks, brothers ...

      and all this when it was half hanging
      and now Ukrainians are asking why Russians have a market gas price
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. Kars
      Kars 1 June 2013 21: 09 New
      +3
      Quote: vkrav
      and took a new one from the Soviet Union
      Cool did not know that they are so well preserved on NZ))))
  • GEO
    GEO 1 June 2013 20: 21 New
    0
    Quote: roial
    They come up with something - they assert themselves.

    They come up with limitrophs. we don’t have to invent. We are a great country with a great history. And which of the brothers forgot this, well ... go to the geyropu ...
    1. Kars
      Kars 1 June 2013 21: 10 New
      +1
      Quote: GEO
      well ... go to the geyropu ..

      You’re a latent gay in the campaign, so acutely accept this topic. This is for good reason.))
    2. roma2
      roma2 2 June 2013 18: 27 New
      -3
      Well, asiope
  • ed65b
    ed65b 1 June 2013 20: 44 New
    +2
    It’s a pity, the roads of capitalism have led us on different sides.
    1. O_RUS
      O_RUS 2 June 2013 06: 32 New
      +1
      Quote: ed65b
      It’s a pity, the roads of capitalism have led us on different sides.


      .... not capitalism divided Russia and Ukraine ... Ukraine is full of Ukrainians wanting unification.

      ... divided by two people, people who want to stay in power, who want to get power in their own hands, an "ostrich position" ...
      ... it doesn't matter with whom, the main thing is against the Russians ...
  • GEO
    GEO 1 June 2013 21: 06 New
    0
    Quote: ed65b
    It’s a pity, the roads of capitalism have led us on different sides.

    Capitalism has nothing to do with it ... There is no need to go under Bendera’s ... SHAME !!!
    1. roial
      1 June 2013 21: 44 New
      -8
      You know, I’ve lived in Ukraine for 35 years, but I have never seen a living Bendera, don’t tell me, where did you see them?
      1. Corneli
        Corneli 2 June 2013 01: 42 New
        -9
        Quote: roial
        You know, I’ve lived in Ukraine for 35 years, but I have never seen a living Bendera, don’t tell me, where did you see them?

        Apparently in the "Russian" TV ... and who cares? Bandera, it's like a "gopher" from the movie:
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwPLpFWOTfc
        The main thing is to BELIEVE!
      2. MG42
        MG42 2 June 2013 21: 21 New
        +2
        Quote: roial
        I’ve been living in Ukraine for 35 years and I have never seen a living Bendera, do not tell me, where did you see them?

      3. Sergey_K
        Sergey_K 2 June 2013 23: 06 New
        +2
        He who seeks will always find))
        1. roial
          3 June 2013 00: 01 New
          -1
          That's better than that.
        2. MG42
          MG42 4 June 2013 01: 06 New
          +2
          Quote: Sergey_K
          He who seeks will always find))

          Seek, and you will find; knock, and will open to you ..
          Yes, true Bandera is not so much, but they can’t say that they can’t be found, they live mainly in Galicia ..

          but there were upa marches in Kiev and other cities ..
  • bublic82009
    bublic82009 1 June 2013 21: 22 New
    +1
    Well, 3 months ago, they read an article on modeling, a battle where the Ukrainian Bastion is a cut above all the tanks. everything is fine on the computer. everything is bad in life.
  • sergey158-29
    sergey158-29 1 June 2013 22: 04 New
    -1
    Quote: svp67

    As a result, they took Soviet samples and established their production at the factories of the military-industrial complex of the former Union ...
    And Russia is still using the Soviet backlog, although the T-50 is already RUSSIAN ...


    Based on your theses, as a result, you took the American f-22 (taking into account modern computer modeling / hacking) and set up its production in your factories and the T-50 of the RUSSIAN ASSEMBLY was already drawn ... well, isn’t it funny?
  • Dimkapvo
    Dimkapvo 2 June 2013 01: 15 New
    +1
    It’s a shame to see when citizens of one, basically blood, get together and peep off ... I figured that after leaving the bastard with a moth-beaten face we would be friends again, but it’s not visible in my lifetime.
    Both our and your tank building, in principle, comes from our common past. The only question is financing. There are enough talents on both sides. Unfortunately, I have zero qualifications to judge whose tank smokes more and why, therefore I can only express a general opinion about the discussion. Who offended, sorry.
    1. Corneli
      Corneli 2 June 2013 01: 45 New
      -1
      It's a shame and sad, but apparently someone WELL VERY FAVORABLE! And to find the "frames" that will run around the sites and carry nonsense ... this is not a problem (
  • O_RUS
    O_RUS 2 June 2013 07: 00 New
    +1
    Quote: Truffoff
    Hold on bro!
    You can always get dual citizenship. Just in case.
    Until it settles down.


    ... double ... not I am Ukrainian! I well remember what communism is in its best years. I will not leave my homeland.

    I already have a decent time "money bags" allocate funds for training ... I go to Russia, the benefit of the Russians take as a native
  • crush
    crush 2 June 2013 09: 15 New
    0
    Over the 20 years of independence, Ukrainians have learned how to make guns from sewer pipes. That's all know-how. The most important thing in armored vehicles is a gun. On the Ukrainian armored personnel carrier, guns very quickly fail. This is directly stated by Iraqis who rejected the armored vehicles and refuse to buy them. .Also with strongholds, only the cannon there is more loaded, so even a shot from the stronghold is a feat. And the Russians do not sit still, on the new tank we will have a 152 mm gun. With such a gun we will blow up all kinds of strongholds and the like without even getting close
    1. stranik72
      stranik72 2 June 2013 14: 30 New
      +2
      Young man, I understand that because of your age, you have a normal historical backtrack in your brain thanks to “our” media. So, just in case, the Russian people are closer than Belarusians and Ukrainians, no one on this planet, we have been in many wars and trenches, we were with them to the end both in victories and in death. They tried to divide us for centuries, now it almost happened, so that it didn’t work out at all, and in the future you didn’t go to the harvest, to any regular burgher or khan, watch your words, there will be more benefit. But in fact, in armored vehicles, as in life, the most important thing is the brains that create it and that control it, and so in Ukraine this is an order of magnitude higher than in Russia.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. stranik72
          stranik72 2 June 2013 20: 16 New
          +2
          crush
          don't talk so much about yourself
  • APASUS
    APASUS 2 June 2013 15: 35 New
    +5
    I read komenty and do not believe!
    The enormous military and political potential is used by Ukraine and Russia for "mouse fuss" in the place of releasing military equipment!
    And the forum is one squabble!
    Look around you !! who do the Slavs need if we do not unite?
    Here we are crushed one by one!
    1. Andrey77
      Andrey77 2 June 2013 17: 15 New
      +1
      who do we need the Slavs if we do not unite?
      -
      And to hell with me, a citizen of Russia? What would they feed, and they joined NATO for this?
      1. APASUS
        APASUS 2 June 2013 19: 53 New
        +2
        Quote: Andrey77
        And to hell with me, a citizen of Russia? What would they feed, and they joined NATO for this?

        Perhaps I will answer you as Otto von Bismarck about Russia
        * The power of Russia can only be undermined by the separation of Ukraine from it ... it is necessary not only to tear off, but also to oppose Ukraine to Russia. To do this, you only need to find and nurture traitors among the elite and, with their help, change the self-awareness of one part of the great people to such an extent that they will hate everything Russian, hate their kind, without realizing it. Everything else is a matter of time.

        Laying the seed of misunderstanding between nations - a tree of hatred grows!
        You do not need to feed them, they feed themselves.
  • Yemelya
    Yemelya 2 June 2013 18: 26 New
    -2
    Historically, Kharkov, along with Leningad, became the cradle of domestic tank building.

    Wow, but I always thought that the cradle was N. Novgorod request .
    1. roial
      2 June 2013 18: 56 New
      0
      I agree there started
  • Sashko07
    Sashko07 2 June 2013 19: 00 New
    0
    Quote: Truffoff

    1. "Ukraine wants the EU"
    In what EU medium-sized economy, who needs us there (see Channel One for more, those there will not tell such tales)
    2. "Ukraine is fighting for NATO"
    Go to the doctor, there’s still time, it can help - you will dig there, pills, potions, an enema in the end laughing
    3. "Ukraine prohibits the Russian language"
    How can Ukraine ban the Russian language if it is spoken by most Ukrainians?
    4. "Ukraine is stealing our gas"
    In Russia, they found a humanoid, whom to believe?
    5. "Ukraine holds SS parades"
    100 people with torches in Lviv is not a parade, this is a bunch, for reference in Russia, fascist organizations, ten times more than in Ukraine, do not hold such parades, only your media is silent about it.
    6. "Ukraine arrests our fleet"
    ?
    7. "Ukraine puts monuments to Bandera"
    Once again, I repeat a little more, look at Channel One, they are not hanging such a crap on their ears. What would you know, they break and abuse us at these monuments and do not put them.