On the suitability of the armored cruiser Bayan for its tactical role

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On the suitability of the armored cruiser Bayan for its tactical role

The armored cruiser Bayan was conceived as an armored reconnaissance vessel for squadron service, while still "remaining a combat vessel." And the experience of the battles at Port Arthur demonstrated that, under the circumstances of 1904, the Bayan was fully capable of fulfilling its intended purpose.

On the tasks of a reconnaissance cruiser during the Russo-Japanese War


What was required of a scout? Establish contact with the enemy's main forces, observe them for a while if necessary, then retreat and report to his commander. Or not retreat at all, but maintain surveillance and report information about the enemy squadron to his admiral once he got close enough to the cruiser.

Generally, a reconnaissance vessel conducts its search from somewhere between its own and the enemy's main forces. But the enemy does the same. Therefore, during reconnaissance, our cruiser must be prepared to meet its counterpart.

If so, combat is possible. But the objectives of a reconnaissance engagement are subordinate to their function: for a cruiser, the primary objective is to carry out reconnaissance and prevent the enemy from doing the same. Destroying an enemy reconnaissance aircraft is secondary and important only to the extent that it contributes to achieving key objectives.

The Battle of Jutland provides a good illustration, although it took place much later than the events described. It is generally accepted that the Germans won this clash of vanguards, as the British suffered far greater losses. However, it is often overlooked that, at the cost of two battlecruisers, John Beatty succeeded in locating the enemy's main force (the third British battlecruiser and the Lützow were lost later), while Frederick Hipper did not. Another issue is that John Beatty failed to inform his commander-in-chief of his "discovery," so his apparent success led to no result.

Nevertheless, it was D. Beatty who managed to both reconnoiter the Germans' main forces and prevent them from reconnoitring his own, while F. Hipper failed in both these tasks. Yet, if information about the Germans had reached D. Jellicoe in time, he could have "encountered" the dreadnoughts. Fleet open sea so that the final score of the battle would not be in favor of the Germans.

From this follows three main tasks of a reconnaissance cruiser in a squadron:

1. Conducting reconnaissance to determine the location and composition of enemy forces and promptly informing the command;

2. Observation of enemy forces for as long as required by the assigned combat mission;

3. Ensuring the secrecy of the deployment of our squadron by preventing the actions of enemy reconnaissance cruisers aimed at fulfilling points 1-2 in relation to our forces.

It's easy to see that points 1 and 3 are closely intertwined. Before assessing the Bayan's performance characteristics for its intended role, it's worth taking a moment to consider the adversary it faced.

A little about the Japanese fleet


The main forces of the Combined Fleet were represented by two classes of warships—battleships and armored cruisers, grouped into the 1st and 2nd Battle Divisions, respectively. The Japanese considered it necessary to have six warships in each division, so after the destruction of two battleships by Russian mines, they added the Nisshin and Kasuga to the 1st Division. The 1st Battle Division typically operated at 12–15 knots (at Tsushima, the Mikasa's engines ran between 76 and 100 rpm). As for H. Kamimura's cruisers, according to the respected A. Rytik, they maintained a speed of 15–17 knots in the same battle, and when necessary, accelerated to 18 knots. During the pursuit of the Admiral Ushakov, achieving this speed was already proving problematic.

The Japanese relied on armored cruisers for reconnaissance, and here they relied on quantity rather than quality. The best Japanese ships of this class were the four "doggies," but the normal displacement of the Takasago and Yoshino was only 4150 tons, and only the Kasagi/Chitose pair had it increased to 4760-4900 tons. The attempt to squeeze powerful armament, including two 8-inch guns (except for the Yoshino), and high speed into such modest dimensions resulted in these cruisers being unseaworthy and relatively unstable as platforms for artillery.

Nevertheless, at least on paper, the "dogs" were excellent cruisers, achieving a speed of 22,5–23,4 knots during trials. How long they could sail in everyday service without forcing their boilers is another matter. Based on data from other Japanese cruisers, it can be assumed that they were capable of sustained speeds of 20 knots, perhaps even 21 knots.

Overall, the "doggies" had a very moderate, if not questionable, combat potential, while other Japanese armored cruisers were even slower and weaker. The next six ships of this subclass—the Tsushima, Otowa, Suma, and Akitsushima classes—had a very moderate speed of 19-20 knots with a normal displacement of 2,667-3,366 tons.

But it's important to keep in mind that this speed was only achieved with forced propulsion, and even then only during trials. Under natural propulsion, the same Suma reached only 15 knots during trials in 1903, and only when forced did it reach 16 knots.


Armored cruiser "Suma"

The Akashi, which reference books list as 19,5 knots, only achieved this speed during trials with afterburners, and only 17,8 knots under natural thrust. In 1903, the cruiser only reached 17 knots without afterburners. The Niitaka, which according to its tactical logbook listed as 20 knots, only reached 17,294 knots during trials on January 16, 1904.

The next six armored cruisers (the Matsushima, Naniwa, and Izumi classes) were obsolete ships at the start of the Russo-Japanese War, with speeds of 16-18 knots, often closer to 16 than 18 knots. For example, the Takachiho, under natural propulsion, could only reach 16,3 knots in 1903. The formally armored cruiser Chiyoda, with a normal displacement of 2400 tons, should also be included in this group. Its speed, according to its data sheet, was 19 knots, but in 1903, the cruiser achieved 17,3 knots without forcing.

The armament of Japanese armored cruisers was quite adequate for their displacement. The "dogs" had quite respectable 2 x 8-inch guns (4 x 6-inch guns on the Yoshino) and 10 x 120-mm guns, but after that, things varied. There were 6 x 6-inch guns, or 2 x 6-inch guns with 6 x 120-mm guns, or 11 x 120-mm guns on the Matsushima-class cruisers, since their 320-mm main battery was of no practical use, and 8 x 6-inch guns on the Naniwa and Takachiho...

On the balance of cruiser forces in the theater


The Japanese armored cruisers were frankly weak and slow, but including the Chiyoda, the Japanese had 17 of them. By the start of the war, we had only eight cruisers (including the Bayan) fit for squadron service—half that number. And we immediately worsened this ratio by abandoning the Varyag to the Japanese, personally destroying the Boyarin, and, through our own oversight, sending the Bogatyr into repairs for the entire war.

As a result, the Pacific Squadron was left with only five cruisers, each of which had three Japanese cruisers. And given that of the five available cruisers, two "goddesses" weren't particularly fast, and the Novik was inferior in combat capabilities to virtually any Japanese "classmate," Japanese quantity turned into quality: on any combat sortie, N.K. Reitzenstein's cruiser detachment risked encountering overwhelming enemy forces.

In other words, Port Arthur's cruisers transformed from expendable war material into an extremely valuable resource, worth using only where the risk of loss was justified by the result achieved. These considerations, coupled with the general passivity of the Port Arthur squadron, led to the cruisers being used with extreme caution. The only squadron commander willing to take risks, S.O. Makarov, died a month after arriving in Port Arthur. I'm not saying that under his leadership our cruisers would have necessarily achieved glory in battle, but without him, they never had a chance.

It's very difficult to conduct reconnaissance with a squadron when for every one of your armored cruisers there are two or three Japanese ones, and for every single armored cruiser there are four. It's even more difficult to distinguish yourself serving with a squadron that is determined to remain unwilling to go to sea. Therefore, the reason Bayan failed to fulfill its reconnaissance duties with the squadron in 1904 had nothing to do with its performance characteristics, but was due to the timidity of our admirals and the vastly superior number of cruisers the Japanese had.

Therefore, the Bayan project should be assessed not so much by its successes in the Russo-Japanese War (although by that too), but also by modeling what it could have achieved with a more or less adequate balance of forces and an active position of our naval commanders.

Let us now consider the capabilities of the armored cruiser Bayan, taking into account the above facts and considerations.

Intelligence service


To carry out reconnaissance operations, a cruiser must, at a minimum, outperform a squadron of battleships, but ideally, it must be faster than the enemy's stronger ships, and stronger than those that are faster. Furthermore, a reconnaissance cruiser must have significant coal reserves, allowing it to maintain high speed for extended periods.

According to the available evidence, which I cited earlier, the Bayan was quite capable of sustained speeds of 20 knots. This is indirectly confirmed by the fact that practically identical cruisers with similar propulsion systems—the Bayan II, Pallada, and Admiral Makarov—during World War I, operating in pairs or brigades, easily maintained a speed of 19 knots—and division speed is usually assigned slightly below full speed. But even if the Bayan had only reached 19 knots instead of 20, she would still have been significantly faster than the Japanese battleships, somewhat surpassing their armored cruisers, and, most interestingly, she was also faster than the vast majority of the armored cruisers of the Combined Fleet. Thus, the Bayan was faster not only than those stronger than her, but also than many of those inferior in combat power. Of all the Japanese battleships, armored cruisers, and armored deck cruisers, only the "dogs" were perhaps equal to the "Bayan" in speed, or at least slightly superior to it.

Taking the above into account, it can be concluded that the Bayan's designed speed—21 knots during long-term trials without overclocking—was optimally chosen against a specific adversary, such as the Japanese fleet. Its 20 knots in everyday operation were sufficient for reconnaissance, although further increase in speed would have required greater engine power and, consequently, greater weight, which would have been detrimental to the ship's combat capabilities. Furthermore, an additional knot or two of speed would not have given the Bayan any significant tactical advantage: 20 knots were necessary and sufficient for its intended mission.

The Bayan didn't carry much coal, however—750 tons at normal displacement and 1020 tons at full displacement. The coal reserves of the Port Arthur Squadron's only armored cruiser were roughly equivalent to those of the Askold, which carried 720 and 1050 tons at normal and full displacement, respectively. However, the Askold was noticeably lighter—6000 tons at normal displacement versus the Bayan's 7805 tons. Therefore, the Bayan's cruising range was inferior to both our armored-deck cruisers and the Japanese British-built armored cruisers, although this disadvantage wasn't fatal. At 10 knots, the Bayan's certified range was 3900 miles, while the Askold's was 4300 miles. Of course, the rated range won't tell you much, because during a combat mission, the cruiser will keep all boilers running, which will increase coal consumption even at 10 knots, and reduce range. But this is true for any cruiser.

However, it's worth remembering that the Bayan was built not for ocean raiding, but for combat operations in a very limited theater: for example, the sea distance from Port Arthur to the Japanese naval base at Sasebo is less than 560 miles. So, yes, the Bayan's relatively small coal capacity is a drawback, but for the theater in which it was to fight, it was a tolerable drawback: it in no way interfered with the Bayan's reconnaissance missions in the waters of the Yellow Sea.

As I wrote above, during reconnaissance there is a high risk of encountering enemy cruisers, but I will return to this a little later.

Observation of the enemy's main forces


In the realities of the Russo-Japanese War, even with good visibility, the enemy was detected even before it broke the horizon. Its approach was signaled by the smoke from its ships' funnels, visible when the ships themselves were still obscured. But, of course, to determine the composition of the enemy squadron, its course, and speed, it was necessary to approach significantly closer, and how much closer depended on visibility and weather. For example, on the day of the Battle of Tsushima, both weather and visibility left much to be desired. Nevertheless, the Izumi observed our squadron from a distance of 55-65 cables; according to other sources, around 50 cables.


Armored cruiser Izumi

Our scout should have kept roughly the same distance when establishing contact with the enemy's main forces. What could threaten the Bayan at that distance?

Experience showed that in January-March 1904, Japanese battleships and armored cruisers were unable to effectively fire at ranges of 40 cables or more. This was particularly evident on February 12, when the Bayan, Askold, and Novik found themselves under fire from six Japanese battleships, and then six armored cruisers, at a range of approximately 40-45 cables, even though at one point the range may have been even slightly shorter. The exchange of fire lasted half an hour, and only one hit was scored on the Russian ships: a 12-inch shell struck the Askold's 6-inch gun barrel. However, given the completely unusual damage pattern, it can be assumed that no hits were made, and that the Askold's shell exploded in the gun barrel.

The second incident occurred on March 31, when Japanese cruisers approached to within 40 cable lengths of the Bayan and, while it was rescuing sailors from the destroyer Strashny, opened fire. The exchange of fire lasted 20 minutes, and again the Bayan suffered no hits. It should be noted, of course, that the Japanese transferred their best gunners to battleships and armored cruisers, and in this combat episode, the "dogs" took the lead, while the Asama and Tokiwa brought up the rear. Accordingly, the distance from the Bayan to the best gunners of the Japanese column was significantly greater than 40 cable lengths.

In fact, and contrary to popular belief, the Japanese weren't particularly adept at long ranges in the Battle of the Yellow Sea, although their battleships demonstrated good accuracy at 40-45 kbt. But during the entire first phase of the battle, which lasted 2 hours and 40 minutes, with the ranges being longer for most of the time, they scored 20 hits with 10-12 inch shells. Moreover, the hits weren't evenly spaced, but rather came in bursts.

Thus, 30% of all hits in this phase, or six 12-inch shells, were received by the Poltava in just 10 minutes—from 13:50 to 14:00. Or take the Tsarevich—at the very beginning of the battle on July 28, from a very long range (the distance could have been up to 80 kbt), the Japanese zeroed in on it with exemplary speed and immediately, around 12:20, scored a hit with a 12-inch shell. However, then, from 12:20 to 13:00, i.e., over the course of 40 minutes of battle, they managed to "add" only one 12-inch shell to the Russian flagship. Therefore, it can be concluded that, although the Japanese sometimes managed to demonstrate exceptionally high accuracy at ranges over 45 kbt, overall the effectiveness of their fire at such a distance was random.

The same can be observed in the Battle of the Korea Strait on August 1, 1904, when H. Kamimura's armored cruisers clashed with the Vladivostok cruiser detachment. There, the Japanese ships' fire was effective at ranges of 30–40 cables, where the Russian cruisers suffered the bulk of their damage. Again, there's no reason to believe that the 8-inch guns of the Nissina and Kasuga performed any better in the Yellow Sea: of all the shells that hit our ships, only two were 8-inch caliber and two more were 8-inch or larger. Of course, there could have been more hits, as in many cases the caliber of the Japanese shells could not be determined, but still.

Therefore, I must state that, while performing reconnaissance missions and located at a distance of over 45 cables from the enemy's main forces, the Bayan could not have been exposed to a hail of shells: only isolated and, essentially, random hits threatened her. And the Bayan was very well protected from such hits. Its main armor belt, 167 mm thick at the waterline at normal displacement, could be penetrated by 12-inch, 331,7 kg armor-piercing shells at a range of no more than 48 cables—and this was with an ideal hit angle of 90 degrees. If the deviation from the normal were 25 degrees, the range would be reduced to 42 cables.

Moreover, due to the characteristics of Japanese shells, it can be argued that the Bayan's vertical armor, except for 60mm sections, could not be penetrated even by 12-inch shells. In the best-case scenario for the Japanese, their shell could knock out the plug, similar to what happened to the Pobeda in the Battle of the Yellow Sea, but such a strike could not inflict decisive damage to the cruiser or significantly slow her speed. And even 50,8mm of armor, as demonstrated by the Retvizan, was capable of stopping a large-caliber shell, limiting its damage to light shrapnel damage in the compartment immediately behind the plate.


The Bayan's horizontal armor deck provided better protection at such distances than the carapace deck, simply due to the lack of slopes, as a shell hits a horizontal deck at a significantly smaller angle than a slope.

Comments to previous articles in this series have repeatedly raised concerns about the Bayan's exposed stern, unprotected by an armor belt and therefore vulnerable to enemy shells. The tragedy of the armored cruiser Rurik, which was lost due to a steering failure, is cited as an example. Sometimes one reads that the Bayan was literally doomed due to this armor deficiency...

Those who write this way miss five very important aspects.

At first, the slopes of the Rurik's carapace deck were more vulnerable to the impact of Japanese shells than the horizontal deck of the Bayan.

Secondly, the reason for the failure of the Rurik's steering system was not a lucky hit, but a whole complex of factors that overlapped each other:

1. In total, not one, but four shells struck the Rurik's stern. The "fatal" third hit, which destroyed the rudder drive, did not disable the cruiser at all—it did not lose control and continued to fight as if nothing had happened;

2. The steering compartment was flooded by the fourth hit to the stern. The water could not be pumped out, not because of the size of the hole, but because the bilge turbine burned out completely inappropriately and without any help from the Japanese;

3. When it became clear the rudder would be flooded, the rudder was locked in the "straight ahead" position to allow steering. For a while, this worked, and the cruiser remained under control. But then something happened, causing the lock to fail.

In fact, it can be said that in the case of the Rurik, the stars aligned extremely favorably for the Japanese. There was no "golden" hit, which are rare in themselves; rather, it was a combination of coincidences, each of which worked in their favor. But even "golden" hits are rare, and the likelihood of such a scenario repeating itself should be considered extremely low.

Third, For there to be any hope of the Rurik scenario coming to fruition, the Bayan would have to be peppered with hits, as was the case with the Rurik. However, for the reasons stated above, no "hail of shells" could fall on the Bayan, which was observing the Japanese main forces from five miles away.

Fourth, For reasons unknown to me, the armor belt in the stern is perceived by some commentators as a panacea, along the lines of, "Have a piece of paper—clean as a pigeon. No paper—lost as a Swede at Poltava." But it's important to understand that neither the 60mm belt in the Bayan's bow nor the 89mm armor on the Samoid's ends offered any protection against classic 10-12 inch armor-piercing or semi-armor-piercing shells. In fact, even a 10-12 inch high-explosive shell, loaded with a normal explosive charge that's not prone to detonation on impact with an obstacle and a base fuse, had an excellent chance of penetrating such armor.

Finally, fifthly, a very common mistake in judgment is that a naval enthusiast stories He takes the design of the armored cruiser "Bayan" and searches for vulnerabilities. And when he finds them, he concludes: "If there are vulnerabilities, then the cruiser is unfit for its intended purpose."

This reasoning forgets that everything is relative. During the Russo-Japanese War, reconnaissance missions were usually assigned to armored cruisers, but here we have a cruiser, after all, an armored cruiser. Let's put the same Askold, or, if you prefer, the Kasagi, in the place of the Bayan, which observed enemy battleships from a distance of 45-50 cables and came under their fire. And let's ask ourselves: would they perform better?

The answer is obvious: of course not. Because while the Bayan's stern is relatively vulnerable to 12-inch Japanese-style shells, the Askold and Kasagi's entire waterline—132,5 meters and 114,1 meters, respectively—is vulnerable. And this is despite the Askold and Kasagi having a much higher chance of sustaining serious damage than the Bayan, due to the sloped armor decks.

Of course, the lack of even 60mm of armor on the Bayan's stern should be considered a weakness and a vulnerability. A 10-12-inch high-explosive shell, striking this vulnerable spot and detonating on the deck armor, could, with luck, penetrate it and damage the steering system. Meanwhile, the presence of vertical armor, even 60mm thick, would have detonated the shell before impact, and it would undoubtedly have been able to withstand the impact of shrapnel.

However, it's important to keep in mind that Japanese-type shells tended to detonate immediately upon impact, meaning the likelihood that even a 12-inch shell would explode upon penetrating the plating was very high. The likelihood of a 12-inch shell exploding before impacting the armored deck upon striking the cofferdams was even higher. At the same time, even 60 mm of armor didn't provide absolute protection from Japanese shells—in one case, a Japanese shell penetrated a 102 mm armor plate and exploded behind it.

In view of the above, it remains to be seen: as a scout, the Bayan had incomparably greater combat resilience than armored cruisers. This was achieved not by the Bayan being invulnerable to enemy shells, but by the fact that she had far fewer vulnerabilities than any armored cruiser.

Invulnerable cruisers didn't exist, as the Asama at the Battle of Tsushima clearly demonstrated. This cruiser was larger than the Bayan and better armored. But two 10-inch shells that struck her stern passed over the 89-mm belt and exploded above the armored deck, causing the Asama to list 1,5 meters by the stern, losing speed, and rendering the cruiser incapacitated.

The Russian squadron, suffering defeat, was unable to build on its success and destroy the Japanese cruiser. But in the hypothetical situation I discussed above for the Bayan—that is, if the Asama had been on reconnaissance, separated from the main force, observing the enemy squadron from a distance of 4,5-5 miles, and had suddenly sustained such damage—its fate would have been sealed. Neither its larger displacement nor its superior armor would have saved it.

It's time to move on to the Bayan's ability to counter Japanese cruisers. I've already written extensively on the subject of the Izumo-Bayan confrontation, but that was only in a hypothetical one-on-one encounter. Now I'd like to consider the consequences of Bayan engagements with Japanese armored and armored-deck cruisers in the context of possible combat situations, and also evaluate the Bayan on a cost-effectiveness scale.

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  1. +7
    26 August 2026 05: 30
    The Battle of Jutland provides a good illustration, although it took place much later than the events described. It is generally accepted that the Germans emerged victorious in this clash of vanguards, as the British suffered far greater losses.
    That's not entirely true! Victory in battles is always won by the side that gains the most from it. In the case of the Battle of Jutland, that side was Britain, whose fleet retained naval supremacy, while the German fleet remained blockaded until the very end of the war, never again putting to sea. Back in school, I read a quote from The New York Times, where a witty and most objective assessment of this battle was given, I quote from memory:

    The German fleet attacked its jailer, but he is still in his prison.I don't think it's possible to express this more succinctly, and most importantly, accurately...
    1. +5
      26 August 2026 07: 25
      Good morning!
      The German fleet attacked its jailer, but he's still in his prison. I don't think there's a more succinct, and more importantly, accurate, way to put it...

      To put it simply, the Germans won on points, trading one battlecruiser for two. However, it wasn't the British who smashed the High Seas Fleet, but the Kaiser, who forbade his admirals from seeking a rendezvous with the British main force at sea.
      1. -1
        26 August 2026 07: 42
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        However, it was not the English who attached the castle to the high seas fleet, but the Kaiser

        Yes, he realized that a surface naval blockade would not be possible and they moved on to building modern submarines with diesel engines and snorkels.
        1. -6
          26 August 2026 07: 55
          A cruiser as a reconnaissance vehicle is nonsense; the best reconnaissance vehicles are submarines.
          1. +3
            26 August 2026 08: 03
            Quote: Konnick
            A cruiser as a reconnaissance vehicle is nonsense; the best reconnaissance vehicles are submarines.
            You're looking at it through the eyes of a modern person. A submarine back then couldn't approach a warship without being detected for long, it didn't have the speed of a cruiser, and it couldn't defend itself, unlike a cruiser.
            1. -7
              26 August 2026 08: 14
              Quote: Schneeberg
              You're looking at this through the eyes of a modern person. Back then, a submarine couldn't get close to a warship.

              The submarines of that time were practically no different from modern diesel submarines. At periscope depth (German ones), they also ran on diesel and were difficult to spot, while through a submarine's periscope, the smoke from ships was clearly visible, and you didn't have to get very close for the periscope to be spotted. They approached only for torpedo attacks, based on the torpedoes' range.
              1. +7
                26 August 2026 10: 47
                Quote: Konnick
                The submarines of that time were practically no different from modern diesel ones; at periscope depth (German ones) they also ran on diesel and were difficult to notice.

                The mass installation of RDP on submarines occurred in 1943. Before that, there were isolated experiments.
                And yes, reconnaissance on a submarine, with its speed and range, is an acquired taste. And joint operations with a squadron are downright suicidal... the "Battle of the Isle of Man" and the regular ramming of their own submarines with "large pots" are a case in point.
                The only sensible method of reconnaissance for a submarine is to remain on duty in the area of ​​bases and choke points through which the enemy fleet will pass, reporting any discoveries.
                Quote: Konnick
                Through the boat's periscope, the ships' smoke was clearly visible and there was no need to get particularly close

                Excellent, so the command will never know the type and number of ships, their speed, or their course. Only that there's something smoking in the sea.
          2. + 13
            26 August 2026 08: 08
            Quote: Konnick
            A cruiser as a reconnaissance vehicle is nonsense; the best reconnaissance vehicles are submarines.

            I thought it was a plane?
            However, from orbit it is even easier to see what is happening on Mother Earth...
            1. -4
              26 August 2026 08: 20
              Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Quote: Konnick
              A cruiser as a reconnaissance vehicle is nonsense; the best reconnaissance vehicles are submarines.

              I thought it was a plane?
              However, from orbit it is even easier to see what is happening on Mother Earth...

              Of course, the best reconnaissance aircraft is an airplane, but not all warships were equipped with airplanes. A submarine could even sneak into an enemy port, and the range of the naval aviation of the time left much to be desired. During World War II, aviation became a weapon feared by surface and submarine fleets. But what about a reconnaissance cruiser in World War I?
          3. +6
            26 August 2026 09: 05
            Quite the opposite. A submarine as a reconnaissance aircraft is nonsense.
            1. -7
              26 August 2026 09: 17
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Quite the opposite. A submarine as a reconnaissance aircraft is nonsense.

              The use of a large ship as a reconnaissance vessel is nonsense, and it's your imagination, just as the accuracy of coastal batteries is worse than that of ships, in your opinion...
              Here's a screenshot from the website https://flot.com/science/tactic/substactics.htm?ysclid=mt9p8h5w6483050929
              1. +8
                26 August 2026 09: 38
                Nikolai, before you start talking about the navy, at least learn to distinguish between a submarine from 2026 and a submarine from 1916. They're slightly different, and assigning tasks that a modern submarine can perform to a WWI-era submarine is utterly absurd. Submarines were only slightly better at reconnaissance in WWI than they were at launching nuclear missile strikes, but they couldn't serve as reconnaissance aircraft for a squadron at all.
                Quote: Konnick
                And this is your fantasy, just as the accuracy of coastal batteries is worse than that of ships, in your opinion...

                What nonsense did I just read? The same gun mounted on the shore with the same fire control system will always be more accurate than the same gun with the same fire control system mounted on a ship.
                But if the guns are different, aimed differently, loaded differently, and have different fire control systems, then the coastal defense might lose.
                1. -8
                  26 August 2026 10: 02
                  British submarines were active. They successfully carried out reconnaissance missions and provided cover for minelaying operations, and their persistent attacks on German squadron ships in the Gulf of Riga kept the Germans on constant alert.


                  Despite the enormous advancement of anti-submarine warfare, submarines remained undefeated in naval combat. Even with their imperfect technical state, they achieved significant successes:


                  3. In reconnaissance, interdiction and other operations at sea. The submarine, as a means of tactical reconnaissance, provided significant assistance to the command of the warring countries, and in some cases was the only means of obtaining information.


                  Author: Igor Grigorievich GALUTVA, veteran submariner, retired captain of the 1st rank.
                  article - "Submarines in World War I"

                  https://history.milportal.ru/podvodnye-lodki-v-pervoj-mirovoj-vojne/?ysclid=mt9qpg4n3337933393
                  1. +7
                    26 August 2026 10: 51
                    Quote: Konnick
                    3. In reconnaissance, interdiction, and other naval operations. As a tactical reconnaissance asset, the submarine provided significant assistance to the command of the warring countries, and in some cases was the only means of obtaining information.

                    And where is the intelligence here? at the squadron?
                    Submarine reconnaissance operations of the time consisted of visual reconnaissance of enemy bases and coastlines, or patrolling the bases with alerts to enemy fleet movements. This reconnaissance did not provide the fleet's course, speed, or current position, so cruise missiles still had to perform additional reconnaissance.
                  2. +8
                    26 August 2026 11: 32
                    You have already been asked this question, and I will repeat it - where is the submarine intelligence in the squadron?
      2. +4
        26 August 2026 09: 03
        The British lost three battlecruisers, not two.
        1. +7
          26 August 2026 09: 06
          The third battlecruiser was not lost by Beatty, it was a different combat episode.
      3. +2
        26 August 2026 14: 19
        Counting points is a thankless task. After Jutland, the Germans forgot about the actions of the large fleet. They simply surrendered.
      4. +2
        26 August 2026 16: 47
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        To put it simply, the Germans won on points by trading one battlecruiser for two.
        It was merely a tactical victory. The strategic victory remained with Britain...
    2. +4
      27 August 2026 11: 05
      Quote: Luminman
      The German fleet remained blockaded until the very end of the war

      Strictly speaking, a couple of times they did go out to sea with their main forces.
      In August 1916. And in April 1918. But both times, they achieved nothing. The third attempt to withdraw them ended in a mutiny.
  2. +4
    26 August 2026 06: 21
    Andrey, thank you! Overall, the depth of your insight into the subject is astonishing; the series of articles is at least worthy of a PhD.
    1. +9
      26 August 2026 07: 28
      I agree completely!
      If Andrey published a paper book about the hero of the article, he would definitely buy it.
      1. +4
        26 August 2026 09: 48
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        If Andrey published a paper book about the hero of the article, he would definitely buy it.

        Thank you very much, but I doubt it. Such a pleasure would cost at least 200,000 rubles these days, and that's just the publication itself. You'd also have to scurry off to St. Petersburg to gather up the drawings and photos for the illustrations.
    2. +5
      26 August 2026 09: 46
      Good afternoon! You are always welcome!
      1. +1
        26 August 2026 23: 00
        It's a shame there are so few views. Some parts of the series got 40000+, but this one barely got any :-(
  3. +3
    26 August 2026 09: 01
    Just in case, let me remind you that “forcing” at that time was simply turning on the electric fans in the boiler room. wink
    1. +5
      26 August 2026 09: 26
      Steam fans, however. And not only that. During forced-running tests on all Japanese ships of that time, all non-essential steam consumers were shut off, such as gun elevators, the water pumping system, watermakers, ventilation systems, and refrigeration units.
      1. +2
        26 August 2026 20: 55
        Quote: sergiogerasimo
        Steam fans, however.

        Yes, that's right. Unlike the general ship ventilation, a steam fan was used for pressurization; electric fans of the time still lacked sufficient power. As for the rest, unnecessary steam consumers were also switched off during natural draft tests.
        1. 0
          26 August 2026 21: 52
          Yes, during parquet trials in England until 1901, and in the USA until 1906, when a ship underloaded to its normal displacement, without armament, ammunition, supplies, spare anchors, etc., was sent out for trials with a double complement of factory stokers and a triple complement of engineers. In Russia, a circular from the Shipbuilding Department in 1882 generally prohibited forced-launch trials of completed ships.
          1. 0
            27 August 2026 10: 20
            The design capacity of the Rurik crane was achieved NOT with natural draft, but by forcing with excess pressure in the stokeholds of 1/2 inch of water column.
            1. +8
              27 August 2026 12: 57
              The design capacity of the Rurik crane was achieved NOT with natural draft, but by forcing with excess pressure in the stokeholds of 1/2 inch of water column.

              Half an inch was obtained naturally by running the fans at full power with the stokehold hatches open.
              Artificial blowing was considered to be pressurization with the stokehold hatches closed and the pressure greater than half an inch of water column.
              1. MSN
                0
                27 August 2026 19: 20
                Half an inch was obtained naturally by running the fans at full power with the stokehold hatches open.

                Few people alive today have worked in boiler rooms. And some have experienced excess pressure. When the FVU is operating, the excess pressure is about 35 mm. More than an inch, but this can be achieved with the hatches and ventilation completely closed. With the hatches open, I wouldn't expect the pressure gauge to move even a millimeter.
                1. +1
                  27 August 2026 23: 25
                  Well, while you present the document, I will quote:

                  https://litlife.club/books/198915/read?page=53

                  "During the entire 8-hour continuous full-speed engine test, the ship's main engines operated satisfactorily, correctly, and smoothly, without heating up the rubbing parts or flooding them with water. During the test, the steam in the boilers remained within the pressure limits specified by the specifications. In the stokehold compartments, the fan engines maintained an air pressure of up to 1/2 dm of water... The total indicated horsepower of both engines was 18596,5."

                  "On August 3, 1911, the commission carried out a verification test of the mechanisms for 3 hours at 0,9 of the highest number of revolutions of the main engines obtained during their official test, i.e., at 100-101 revolutions. All 25 boilers were under steam, the fan machines were running without pressure in the stokehold compartments, with the hatches open. ... the total indicator power of both engines was 14713 steam horses."


                  Write why the ventilation machines on the battleship "Emperor Paul I" could maintain an excess air pressure of 1/2 inch of water column in the stokeholds only with the stokehold hatches closed, but with the stokehold hatches open, the operating ventilation machines did not create such excess pressure in the stokeholds?
              2. 0
                27 August 2026 20: 37
                Quote: Jura 27
                Half an inch was obtained naturally by running the fans at full power with the stokehold hatches open.
                Artificial blowing was considered to be pressurization with the stokehold hatches closed and the pressure greater than half an inch of water column.

                Seriously? Will you even provide a document? I'm waiting.
          2. -1
            27 August 2026 12: 52
            at parquet tests in England until 1901, and in the USA until 1906, when a ship, underloaded even to normal displacement, without weapons, ammunition, supplies, spare anchors, etc., with a double set of factory stokers and a triple set of engineers, went out for tests.

            Every trial is different. There are a couple of examples where this happened during admission to the treasury.
            In Russia, yes, they did it that way often - without artillery, parts of the armor and underloaded.
            1. +4
              27 August 2026 16: 35
              Quote: Jura 27
              In Russia, yes, they did it that way often - without artillery, parts of the armor and underloaded.

              But usually, they brought the displacement up to normal with ballast, and if not, they recalculated the result. And, if I remember correctly, this mostly happened outside of acceptance trials.
              1. MSN
                +1
                27 August 2026 19: 24
                But usually they brought the displacement up to normal with ballast, and if not, they recalculated the result.

                Or like with Bayan. The 24-hour tests were split into two 12-hour sessions, 30 hours apart. And they pretended everything was fine.
            2. 0
              27 August 2026 20: 14
              You're lying, though! That's just not how they did it in Russia. The factory ships were always followed by naval ships. Even the Aurora was followed by the Franco-Russian Shipyard assault ships.
    2. +5
      26 August 2026 19: 02
      Thanks, I didn't know that – I thought that Forsage was some kind of short-term experiment that was extremely harmful to equipment...
      Or was it not in vain that I thought?
      1. -1
        26 August 2026 20: 56
        Quote: Dmitry24
        Or was it not in vain that I thought?

        No need. It's just a fan. smile
        1. +2
          26 August 2026 21: 53
          That is, to add a couple of units, you need to shove another steam engine and a dozen boilers into the hold, but it turns out that you could just turn on the fan... Something doesn't add up - everyone would still be sailing on afterburners.
          1. -1
            27 August 2026 22: 27
            Quote: Dmitry24
            Something doesn't add up - everyone would have been on afterburner.

            That's how everyone went. That's why Russian ships had more boilers and fewer guns. However, this didn't last long; after the Russian Revolution, they didn't persist much.
      2. +4
        26 August 2026 21: 46
        Quote: Dmitry24
        Or was it not in vain that I thought?

        Not in vain.
        It depends on the conditions under consideration. Vehicle overboosting can be either standard or beyond design. For example.
        The King George V-class battleships were designed to reach 28,5 knots at standard displacement (35990 tons) and 27,5 knots at full displacement (40990 tons), with a designed maximum engine power of 100,000 horsepower. The design also included provisions for boosting to 110,000 horsepower (to allow for displacement increases during modernization). These were the conditions under which they were tested: the Duke of York achieved 28,6 knots (average 28,3 knots) during four-hour trials, with an engine power of 111,300 horsepower and a displacement of 42550 tons.
        There was also an "emergency" mode for boosting the engines to 125 horsepower - the calculated speed should have been 29,25 knots (or 28,25 knots at full displacement), although there is one catch: the British do not report anywhere that they were able to squeeze 125 kilohorses out of the "kmng" engines.
        Something similar can be found in all fleets...
      3. -1
        26 August 2026 21: 58
        You were right. Both in England and the United States, many ships required replacement boilers after record-breaking voyages.
      4. +3
        26 August 2026 22: 00
        Quote: Dmitry24
        Or was it not in vain that I thought?

        Of course, not in vain.
        Simply put, overheating on steam boilers means operating at a load beyond their design capacity, and boilers absolutely hate that. After all, they have a specific steam output and a circulating circuit designed for it, along with water supply and so on. But when all that goes to waste, overheating occurs, and unburned fuel residue is released instead of flue gases...
        1. +1
          27 August 2026 22: 31
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Simply put, overheating on steam boilers means operating at a load beyond the design capacity, and boilers absolutely do not like this.

          It seems you (and a number of commenters) are confusing forced draft (blowing) with forced (accelerated) boiler heating. The latter is dangerous and can cause boiler damage, while the former is simply a way to increase boiler steam production.
        2. +2
          31 August 2026 15: 01
          Simply put, overheating on steam boilers is operating at a load beyond the design capacity.

          Exactly, and not just by supplying more air, but also fuel. And if the air boost (and fuel supply) are as designed, then everything is OK. But my colleagues are left with the impression that the fans always work as afterburners. And without them, the pressure in the boiler room will be LOWER than atmospheric pressure at that point (how atmospheric pressure changes in winter/summer; in cyclones... that's "different").
      5. -1
        27 August 2026 10: 31
        In the 1890s, for cranes with fire-tube cylindrical boilers and Belleville water-tube boilers, long-term fan-assisted blowing of the stokehold compartments with an excess pressure in them of 1/2 inch of water column was allowed.

        In the French navy, short-term pressurization of up to 1 inch of water column was permitted for fire-tube boilers, which was detrimental to the boiler's firetubes, causing them to leak. In the Russian Imperial Navy, a pressurization of 1/2 inch of water column was permitted for fire-tube boilers and Belleville boilers, and no more. The idea that Russian ships were required to demonstrate the contractual power of their steam engines and, accordingly, the contractual full speed under natural draft in their boiler rooms during sea trials is simply a fairy tale, not supported by historical documents of the time. It's unlikely that anyone will be able to determine who originated this tale, but Andrei, the respected sailor, adheres to it.
        1. +6
          27 August 2026 16: 47
          Quote: AlexanderA
          The idea that Russian ships were supposed to demonstrate the contractual power of their steam engines and, accordingly, the contractual full speed under natural draft in their boiler rooms during sea trials is just a fairy tale, not supported by historical documents of the time.

          Alexander, this isn't a fairy tale, but the harsh truth. You really are telling fairy tales, speculating on the half-inch excess pressure allowed on Russian ships.
          One can argue about the terminology and whether such pressure can be called forcing or not. But one must never ignore the fact that a ship can sail for a very long time at half an inch of overpressure—six or even twelve hours—meaning that in any case, this regime is the norm for a warship's full speed.
          During the trials of the Japanese cruisers you're championing, the mechanisms were boosted at higher pressures, and they couldn't operate at that level for long. Therefore, it's impossible to say that the Asama and Bayan were compared at the same propulsion system operating mode, but that's precisely what you're trying to prove.
          In fact, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Japanese test documents revealed that they had a pressure limit of half an inch under natural draft:))))))))
          1. -1
            28 August 2026 00: 00
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            One can argue about the terminology and whether such pressure can be called forcing or not. But one must never ignore the fact that a ship can sail for a very long time at half an inch of overpressure—six or even twelve hours—meaning that in any case, this regime is the norm for a warship's full speed.

            There's no dispute about the terms. Natural draft was created only by the smokestack. To improve natural draft, the Americans installed smokestacks as long as 100 feet (30 meters) on cruisers (the Brooklyn and Pennsylvania-class cruisers).

            Forced draft fans were used to provide artificial draft. However, to create a 1/2-inch overpressure in the ship's boiler rooms through forced draft (the domestic MTK did not allow for higher pressure for either fire-tube boilers or Belleville water-tube boilers), the boiler rooms had to be sealed, and all hatches and doors had to be closed.

            If you claim that 1/2 inch of water column overpressure isn't forced draft, then that means the Russian Imperial Navy didn't have a single ship with fire-tube boilers or Belleville boilers with forced draft. This isn't true. As you can see above, natural draft was created solely by the smokestack.

            https://textarchive.ru/c-2561191-pall.html

            "The supply of air to the furnace for fuel combustion (blowing) and the removal of flue gases (draft) can be natural—using a chimney—or artificial—using a forced-draft fan and a smoke exhauster. Flue gases, after passing through the flue ducts of the heat generator, are directed to a flue, a smoke exhauster, and a chimney."

            https://toplivopodacha.ru/thrust-blast.html

            To organize the combustion process, air must be supplied to the furnace of a steam or hot water boiler and the resulting combustion products must be removed. Air supply and combustion product removal can be accomplished in two ways: by creating a vacuum in the furnace and flues, i.e., a pressure lower than the ambient air pressure, or by creating excess pressure relative to the ambient air.

            Boiler units operating under vacuum in the flue gas path can have either natural or artificial draft and air supply. Natural draft is defined as a system in which the vacuum in the firebox and flues is created by the chimney, and as a result, the difference in pressure (between ambient air and combustion products) forces air into the firebox necessary for combustion. Artificial draft creates the vacuum in the firebox and flues by a smoke exhaust fan, and air is supplied by a fan.

            Dear Yuri wrote here that:

            "Half an inch was produced naturally by running the fans at full power with the stokehold hatches open.
            Artificial blowing was considered to be pressurization with the stokehold hatches closed and the pressure greater than half an inch of water column."


            Well, as soon as he provides a link to the source of this information, I will confess here and declare that yes, fan blowing with excess pressure in the stokeholds of 1/2 inch of water column is in fact not artificial blowing, but the most natural draft.

            And that all Russian ships with fire-tube boilers, as well as Belleville boilers, equipped with forced-draft fans (it all started with the Admiral Kornilov) did not have any forced draft, they all had only natural draft.

            http://www.navy.su/navybook/melnikov/varyag/02.html

            Forced draft was used in the Russian navy on the cruiser Admiral Kornilov, which increased the power of its machinery and boosted its speed from 16,9 to 17,6 knots. However, this measure required additional energy to drive the fans, increased the load on the machinery, and increased stokers' fatigue. Therefore, the Ministry of Transport and Communications deemed it necessary to achieve contract speeds using natural draft.
            1. +4
              28 August 2026 07: 54
              Quote: AlexanderA
              Well, as soon as he provides a link to the source of this information, I will confess here and declare that yes, fan blowing with excess pressure in the stokeholds of 1/2 inch of water column is in fact not artificial blowing, but the most natural draft.

              It doesn't matter at all:)))) It matters
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              that a ship with an excess pressure of half an inch can go for a very long time - both 6 and 12 hours, that is, in any case, this mode is the norm for the full speed of a warship.
              During the trials of the Japanese cruisers you're championing, the mechanisms were boosted at higher pressures, and they couldn't operate at that level for long. Therefore, it's impossible to say that the Asama and Bayan were compared at the same propulsion system operating mode, but that's precisely what you're trying to prove.

              And you can’t say anything in response to this, but you continue to spam.
              1. MSN
                -6
                28 August 2026 09: 10
                And you can’t say anything in response to this.

                "How can I understand you if you don't say anything?" Ivan Vasilyevich.
                So, finally, provide data on the permissible pressure levels, speeds, and corresponding travel times for Japanese tires. Don't tell fairy tales, give me the numbers.
                1. +4
                  28 August 2026 10: 25
                  Quote: MSN
                  Well, finally, provide data on the permissible pressure levels, speeds and corresponding travel times of the Japanese.

                  Yes, this has been mentioned many times already.
                  Thus, during the trials of the Japanese battleship Fuji, which will be described below, the pressure in the boiler rooms was increased to one and a half atmospheres...
                  ...For example, we all know that the Poltava-class battleships, laid down in 1892, had a speed of 16 knots, while the Japanese Fuji, laid down two years later, reached 18 knots. But if we look more closely at the descriptions of these ships' trials, it turns out that the Poltava achieved an average speed of 16,29 knots during a 9-hour run (it should have been 12 hours, but a storm began)—under natural propulsion, of course. The length of the route was, obviously, 9 hours * 16,29 knots = 146,6 miles. The Fuji, however, achieved its record-breaking 18,5 knots under artificial propulsion during only a 10-mile run (or rather, this was the average speed over six 10-mile runs). At the same time, over a 40-mile distance under natural propulsion, the Fuji achieved a speed of 16,8 knots, not much faster than the Russian battleship. And it remains to be seen how fast the Japanese "speedboat" would have performed over the Poltava's test distance, which was nearly four times faster than the Fuji's natural propulsion.
                  1. MSN
                    -2
                    28 August 2026 11: 57
                    Yes, this has been mentioned many times already.

                    You want to back up your current words with your past words. Very good. I listened, but I didn't believe it. There won't be any documents on the Asama tests?
                    1. +4
                      28 August 2026 12: 17
                      Quote: MSN
                      You want to confirm your current words with your past words.

                      You accuse me of not saying anything. I quoted myself to show you that you are mistaken.
                      Quote: MSN
                      Very good. I listened to it and didn't believe it.

                      Well, you have every right to disbelieve the data Belov and Balakin cited in their works. But to refute them, please provide documents refuting their data.
                      1. MSN
                        -4
                        28 August 2026 14: 09
                        Well, you have every right to disbelieve the data Belov and Balakin cited in their works. But to refute them, please provide documents refuting their data.

                        We're not discussing the work of Belov and Balakin. We're discussing your work. And it contains no references to any documents or works by respected researchers. It's easy to refute your words—I don't believe it.
                      2. +3
                        28 August 2026 14: 21
                        Quote: MSN
                        We're not discussing the work of Belov and Balakin. We're discussing your work.

                        Which, judging by the opinion you expressed, has a fantastic property: the information it cites from the books of Belov and Balakin immediately leads to this information becoming false.
                      3. MSN
                        -3
                        28 August 2026 14: 29
                        The information cited in it from the books of Belov and Balakin immediately leads to the fact that this information becomes false.

                        Let me repeat. Your works contain no citations to the source of the quote. And without citing the quote itself and the source, your words are false, forgive me.
                      4. +4
                        28 August 2026 15: 39
                        Let me reiterate. The fact that you haven't bothered to read the basics of Japanese technology is your own problem. I'm not obligated to list every source I use in my articles. But I'm always willing to explain what's sourced and what's my own. And the fact that you can't even ask for a reference, but instead start with Stanislavsky's "I don't believe it!" speaks volumes about your unconstructive stance and bias.
                      5. MSN
                        -6
                        28 August 2026 17: 15
                        The fact that you haven't bothered to read the ABCs of Japanese technology is your own personal problem; I'm not obligated to list every source I get my information from in my articles.

                        Once upon a time, a long time ago, I was taught that you MUST. Otherwise, it's stealing.
                        And the fact that you can't ask for a link

                        I've already asked a dozen times for links to documents, test results, and so on. The answer is a fairy tale. As a reminder:
                        The rules for formatting references to sources in educational and scientific works are regulated by standards (in Russia, mainly GOST R 7.0.5–2008) and the requirements of a specific educational institution.
                        Main types of links
                        In-text: indicated directly in the text in square or round brackets (for example, [1, p. 15] or [Ivanov, 2025]).
                        Footnotes (footnotes): located at the bottom of the page below the line, contain full or abbreviated source data.
                        Beyond the text: references to the source number from the general list of references, which is placed at the end of the work.
                        Basic rules of citation
                        Direct quote: The text is placed in quotation marks, and a link to the source with the page number must be included after it.
                        Indirect quotation (paraphrase): someone else's thought is conveyed in your own words, but you still need to cite the author and source.
                        Regulatory acts: when referring to laws or official documents, their full official name without abbreviations, date of adoption and number are written.
                        Bibliography: all sources referenced in the text are included in the final list in the order of their appearance in the work or in alphabetical order.
                      6. +5
                        28 August 2026 17: 39
                        Quote: MSN
                        Once upon a time, a very long time ago, I was taught that I MUST.

                        You weren't taught well. Or you're a bad student (which is more likely).
                        Quote: MSN
                        I have already asked a dozen times to provide links to documents, test results, etc.

                        And I gave you links to other sources - publications by other authors.
                        Quote: MSN
                        Rules for formatting references to sources in educational and scientific works

                        My articles are neither educational nor scientific works.
                      7. MSN
                        -7
                        28 August 2026 17: 41
                        My articles are neither educational nor scientific works.

                        "What about the money?" Election Day.
                        But overall I agree. These are the tales of an amateur.
                      8. +5
                        29 August 2026 08: 52
                        Quote: MSN
                        "And the money?"

                        What – money? Can you only get that for articles written according to GOST standards? :)))) Open any "Modeler-Constructor" website and look at the Marine Collection or other relevant articles. No one designed them according to the GOST standards you cited; there are no references or footnotes to them.
                        Quote: MSN
                        But overall I agree. These are the tales of an amateur.

                        Well then, refute them - on the merits.
                      9. +6
                        28 August 2026 18: 30
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        My articles are neither educational nor scientific works.

                        However, they are often referenced on other resources...
                      10. MSN
                        -5
                        28 August 2026 19: 00
                        However, they are often referenced on other resources...

                        That's the problem... For example, Andrey invented the idea that Bayan is stronger than Asama. It seems like nonsense; who's going to pay attention to it? But the frequency of mentions and the author's prolific output compel Google to cite him. And that's a problem.
                      11. +6
                        28 August 2026 19: 04
                        Quote: MSN
                        But the author's frequency of mentions and prolific output compels Google to cite him. And that's a problem.

                        Especially in view of the lack of specialized scientific works on the subject.
                        There's no denying that Andrey does a good job, but sometimes things don't quite work out the way they should, which leads to discussions here that span hundreds of posts.
                        However, no one is immune from this: each author has his own point of view on the problem.
                      12. MSN
                        -6
                        28 August 2026 19: 29
                        However, no one is immune from this: each author has his own point of view on the problem.

                        Of course. But there's a simple solution. Claiming someone isn't using node 81 is a citation. Claiming someone is using node 81 is a citation. Not to himself, but to a document. And Andrey has big problems with that. And even if he does cite it, he's not citing the quote, but his own interpretation of it. Like with Egoriev's work. It's good that he responds to criticism; it's bad that he doesn't. But people like it. Times and customs.
                      13. 0
                        29 August 2026 05: 20
                        Look, Gumilev wrote many good books. Everyone cites him. But that doesn't mean he's right.
                        And Fomenko-Nosovsky... Ooooh!
                        There's an opinion. Whether or not to adhere to it is up to the next author.
                      14. +3
                        29 August 2026 11: 02
                        However, you didn't read the author's opus carefully. Nowhere did he directly say that Bayan was stronger than Asama... The author sympathizes with Bayan, but that's within the logic of a football referee on the home team's field. I suspect the ministries and admiralties weren't fools—in the end, this particular project was scrapped. After Tsushima, they probably blew both ways—meaning they thought carefully about their choice.
                      15. +5
                        29 August 2026 12: 39
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        I suspect the ministries and admiralties weren't fools—in the end, this particular project was scrapped. After Tsushima, they probably didn't give a damn—meaning they thought long and hard about the choice.

                        Here you are slightly wrong: the decision to build new BLKRs of the "Bayan" type was made on December 9, 1904, and the lead ship was laid down on March 22, 1905...
                      16. +5
                        29 August 2026 08: 48
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        However, they are often referenced on other resources.

                        Well, I don't see much of a problem with that. I don't deceive anyone in my articles; I just don't provide footnotes for every fact presented. And I respond to requests. At the same time, it's usually clear from the article what is factual and what is my interpretation of those facts.
                      17. +4
                        29 August 2026 05: 18
                        Well, you're kidding! What's going on here? Are they writing a scientific article for a specialized journal at their own expense? Then everything here would be in footnotes. Who needs that? Just to fill up space? There's no paper on the website.
                        Find out as many details as possible. The author responds. But demand compliance with GOST? Generally, GOSTs are advisory in nature. If a website says that all articles are formatted according to your GOST, then demand it.
                      18. +5
                        29 August 2026 10: 47
                        Formally, you are right, but this way we will get to the references to Cyril and Methodius in the course of using letters...
                        The topic you and Alexander raised is truly interesting, and it's truly deeper than the disputants' attempts at mutual self-affirmation—the essence and the joke lies in assessing the level of domestic incompetence...
                        If Andrey is right, then our shipbuilders have truly reached a level of quality in the most high-tech production.
                        Indeed, if the great and terrible British achieved their supposedly overwhelming superiority through machinations, that is one thing... And there is something to be proud of.
                        And if both of them cheated as best they could (while ours ended up with a consistently worse result), then that's not bad either - again, there's a reason for justification)
                    2. +6
                      28 August 2026 13: 19
                      Quote: MSN
                      You want to back up your current words with your past words. Very good. I listened, but I didn't believe it. There won't be any documents on the Asama tests?

                      During tests of the armored cruiser "Asama", using forced traction, the engine power was 18000, the pressure was 1.97 inches (50 mm), and the speed was 21.25 knots.
                      1. MSN
                        -1
                        28 August 2026 14: 02
                        During tests of the armored cruiser "Asama", using forced traction, the engine power was 18000, the pressure was 1.97 inches (50 mm), and the speed was 21.25 knots.

                        Thank you. A question regarding the discussion about boost. Were there any time limits on the use of boost?
                      2. +4
                        28 August 2026 15: 07
                        Quote: MSN
                        Were there any time limits on the use of supercharging?

                        No, I haven't encountered any specific time limits, but when reviewing sea trial reports for British ships, I noticed one peculiarity. If the pressure exceeded 1,97 inches (50 mm) during the trials, the final data reported was still the one obtained at 1,97 inches (50 mm), and anything above that was ignored.
                      3. +2
                        29 August 2026 05: 27
                        I think the best proof of the aces' poor performance will be in practice. They never once acted as a flying squadron, holding off enemy forces until the main force arrived, and so on. Even the Vladivostok cruisers couldn't catch up. And judging by the numbers, they should have. They were always hanging around behind the battleships.
                        So that no one can accuse me here, I will write that: when we acted with the main forces.
                        It's easy to understand. Why send cruisers to the slaughter when battleships are catching up just fine?
                      4. +3
                        29 August 2026 09: 26
                        Quote: MCmaximus
                        I think the best proof of the aces' poor performance will be in practice. They never once served as a flying squadron, holding off enemy forces until the main force arrived, and so on.

                        So the question was about testing, not about further operation.
              2. +1
                28 August 2026 11: 39
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                It doesn't matter at all:)))) It matters

                It is important that the fire tubes in a fire tube boiler can withstand excess pressure in the boiler room of 1/2 inch.

                We don't know why the MTK initially encountered the "contractual full-speed limitation on natural draft only" issue when switching to the 1894 Belleville boilers. But we do know that the Belleville boilers were poorly suited for forced draft. More precisely, they only allowed for a very moderate amount of forced draft in inches of water column.
                And during the tests of Japanese cruisers, which you are "rooting for," the mechanisms were forced under higher pressure and they could not operate in this mode for a long time.

                Let's start by saying that I'm not a conservative British lord who advocates the construction of cruisers with fire-tube boilers in the late 1890s. Fire-tube boilers had their own serious operational problems, and naturally, after several years of service, the fire-tube boilers on the first Japanese armored cruisers no longer demonstrated the maximum steam output they had demonstrated during sea trials.

                Would you like to provide evidence that on the Izumo, Iwate, and Azuma, whose crane manoeuvres used 24 Belleville boilers, a much higher boiler pressurization in inches of water column was allowed to be used in order to achieve maximum speed during testing than on the domestic Bayans?
                1. +2
                  28 August 2026 12: 08
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  Would you like to provide evidence that on the Izumo, Iwate, and Azuma, whose crane manoeuvres used 24 Belleville boilers, a much higher boiler pressurization in inches of water column was allowed to be used in order to achieve maximum speed during testing than on the domestic Bayans?

                  So the fact that the Izumo, with a 14,500 hp rating according to the specifications, accelerated its output to 15,709 hp (an 8,3% increase) during testing, while the Iwate had 16,078 hp, a corresponding 10,88% increase, doesn't mean anything to you? Considering that the Bayan achieved these figures—16500 hp, nominally 16,848—during testing, and the increase was 2.1%?
                  1. 0
                    28 August 2026 23: 15
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    So the fact that the Izumo, with a 14,500 hp rating according to the specifications, accelerated its output to 15,709 hp (an 8,3% increase) during testing, while the Iwate had 16,078 hp, a corresponding 10,88% increase, doesn't mean anything to you? Considering that the Bayan achieved these figures—16500 hp, nominally 16,848—during testing, and the increase was 2.1%?

                    What can I tell you? Compared to natural draft, fan-assisted forced-draft of sealed stokeholds at 1/2 inch of water column was capable of increasing the amount of coal burned per square meter of grate, and thus the boiler steam output and steam engine power by 20-25%.

                    I'll illustrate this using the battleship Emperor Paul I as an example. The fan engines maintained an excess pressure of 1/2 inch of water in the sealed stokeholds: "The combined indicated horsepower of both engines was 18596,5."

                    In the next cycle of tests, “without pressure in the boiler rooms, with the hatches open... ...the total indicated power of both machines was 14713 steam horses.”

                    The transition from fan-assisted pressurization of sealed stokeholds at 1/2 inch of water column to natural draft reduced the power of the machines by almost 21%.

                    You're comparing the maximum rated power with the maximum power achieved during testing, not the maximum rated power under natural draft with the maximum rated power under forced draft. You get the idea.
                    1. +4
                      29 August 2026 08: 59
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      Well, you get the point.

                      Why are you lying without blushing? I realized that long ago.
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      In the next cycle of tests, “without pressure in the boiler rooms, with the hatches open... ...the total indicated power of both machines was 14713 steam horses.”

                      You quote, but at the same time you are embarrassed to point out that the full quote looks like this:
                      On August 3, 1911, the commission carried out a verification test of the mechanisms for 3 hours. at 0,9 of the highest number of revolutions of the main machines obtained during their official test, i.e. at 100–101 revolutions. All 25 boilers were energized, and the fan engines were operating without pressure in the stokeholds, with the hatches open. The average indicated horsepower of the right engine was 7285,5, the left engine 7427,5, and the combined indicated horsepower of both engines was 14713. At average speeds of 96,7 rpm for the right engine and 99,33 rpm for the left engine.

                      That is, no one tried to give full speed, hence the lower power shown.
                      1. -1
                        29 August 2026 12: 07
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Why are you lying without blushing? I realized that long ago.

                        Well, then you didn't understand. Although I think I'm explaining it clearly. No need to be rude, dear Andrey. It's you, not me, who's constantly misleading your readers. However, I'm not claiming that you're lying to your readers. You told "fairy tales," in particular the "fairy tale" about "natural draft" under the overpressure created by the fan machines in the closed boiler rooms at 1/2 the water column, because you yourself were honestly mistaken.

                        But you do have shortcomings, dear Andrey. They lie in your tendency to persist in your delusions and become rude when they're politely pointed out. I've tried everything, even cited a historical source, claiming that the excess pressure of 1/3 to 1/2 inch of water column created by the fan motors with the stokeholds closed is "moderate forcing," not "natural draft," yet you persist.
                        at the same time, you are embarrassed to point out that in full the quotation looks like this: “at 0,9 of the highest number of revolutions of the main machines obtained during their official test, i.e. at 100–101 revolutions.”

                        Did you seriously think that if you removed the increased pressure in the stokeholds by opening the hatches, i.e., eliminated the effect of the fan blower, you could achieve the same maximum number of machine revolutions as with fan blowing into sealed stokeholds?

                        Confusing cause and effect is a logical fallacy. It wasn't because they were trying to achieve a 10% lower RPM by opening the hatches that the increased pressure in the stokeholds was eliminated, but because opening the hatches eliminated this increased pressure with all 25 boilers operating, the RPM achieved was only 0,9 times the RPM achieved by the machines operating at maximum power with forced air flow into the sealed stokeholds.
                        That is, no one tried to give full speed, hence the lower power shown.

                        They simply determined the engine power output under natural draft, not forced draft. To achieve an engine speed of 0,9 times the maximum, the hatches need not be opened, so the crane manhole cover can operate with all 25 boilers "without (increased) pressure in the stokeholds." So, that's what they determined. And yet, more than a hundred years later, some still haven't figured out why.
                      2. +1
                        29 August 2026 16: 33
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        They simply determined what the power of the machines would be with natural draft, and not with forced draft.

                        Where is this written?:)))))
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Confusing cause and effect is a logical fallacy.

                        learn to read what is written.
                        Not only are you lying, but you're lying in a verifiable and stupid way. The quote clearly states that the tests weren't fully underway.
                        On August 3, 1911, the commission made verification testing of mechanisms for 3 hours at 0,9 of the highest number of revolutions of the main machines obtained during their official test, i.e. at 100–101 revolutions

                        In general, if you are going to lie, then at least try to make your lie at least somewhat resemble the truth.
                      3. -2
                        2 September 2026 13: 18
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In general, if you are going to lie, then at least try to make your lie at least somewhat resemble the truth.

                        In a well-designed and manufactured crane manipulator of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the use of forced blast of 1/2 the water column allowed the machine power to be increased by 20-25% compared to the operation of the crane manipulator using natural draft.

                        Please point out the mistakes in this relic of mine.

                        You stubbornly write about lies, but you never bother to explain what this lie consists of.
                      4. +1
                        2 September 2026 15: 57
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Please point out the mistakes in this relic of mine.

                        The entire remark is a complete error and a distortion. You didn't even bother to distinguish between fire-tube and water-tube boilers.
                        This time
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        You stubbornly write about lies, but you never bother to explain what this lie consists of.

                        And again you are lying - I have more than explained what it consists of - with examples from the text, giving full quotes
                      5. 0
                        2 September 2026 18: 40
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The entire remark is a complete mistake and distortion.

                        More specifically, dear Andrey? Aren't you capable of pointing out specific factual errors?

                        Let's say the increase in power from 9000 hp to 11,000 hp is an increase in power of ~22%, don't you agree?

                        Well, during the battleship Revenge's sea trials, this increase in power was achieved with an excess air pressure in the stokeholds of 0,46 inches of water column. Do you disagree with this fact? In what way, exactly?

                        Please indicate in more detail which figures and facts you disagree with, dear Andrey.
                        You didn't even bother to differentiate between fire-tube and water-tube boilers.

                        Did coal burn differently in fire-tube boilers than in Belleville boilers? How exactly was it different? Please provide facts and figures.
                        And again you are lying - I have more than explained what it consists of - with examples from the text, giving full quotes

                        Well then, it won't be hard for you to quote what my lie is. All you can write is, "The entire remark is a complete error and distortion." So, what figures and facts did I lie about? Provide these specific figures and facts.
                      6. +2
                        3 September 2026 05: 49
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        More specifically, dear Andrey? Aren't you capable of pointing out specific factual errors?

                        I already pointed out one - you ignored it as usual.
                        Alexander, why do I need all this? :)))) I caught you in a lie about Paul I, I don’t need to explain or prove anything to you.
                        You've decided to prove the unprovable—well, go ahead. All you have to do is show how ships in England set record speeds on runs lasting 6-12 hours.
                      7. +1
                        4 September 2026 13: 10
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I already pointed out one - you ignored it as usual.

                        So there was only one factual error? Well, just write down what that factual error was. I don't think it's clear to me or to any casual reader of these comments.

                        At that time, the RIF routinely checked the operation of ship mechanisms with both the stokehold hatches closed and open. According to your information, what excess pressure in the stokeholds was considered acceptable in the RIF with CLOSED stokehold hatches on ships with Belleville boilers?

                        What did the pressure become if the boiler room hatches were opened?

                        You know the answers to these questions, don't you?
                        All you have to do is show how in England ships demonstrated their record speeds on runs lasting 6-12 hours.

                        30-hour sea trials of HMS Powerful and HMS Terrible under natural draft.

                        HMS Powerful: with an average engine power of 18,430 horsepower, the cruiser confidently maintained an average speed of 20,6 knots.

                        HMS Terrible: achieved a better result, averaging 20,96 knots.

                        8-hour contract power test.

                        HMS Powerful: achieved a top speed of 21,8 knots with a recorded power of 25,886 ihp.

                        HMS Terrible: exceeded design performance and reached a top speed of 22,4 knots with an engine power of 25,572 horsepower.

                        After sea trials were completed, the funnels of these cruisers were lengthened by 10 feet (3,05 m) to improve natural draft.
                    2. +1
                      31 August 2026 15: 44
                      repeat, didn't read further
              3. 0
                28 August 2026 22: 53
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                And you can’t say anything in response to this, but you continue to spam.

                Dear Andrey, weren't you the one who said that increasing the pressure in the boiler rooms by 1/2 inch of water column compared to the atmospheric pressure due to the pressurization by fans is NOT forced air, but "natural draft" and thus misled your readers?

                And so, "Kronstadt Herald" No. 148, 1893. Article on the sea trials of the Royal Sovereign-class battleships. The battleships' crane mechanisms were designed for 9000 indicated horsepower with natural draft and 13000 indicated horsepower with forced draft.

                During testing on the Royal Sovereign, the excess pressure in the stokeholds was raised to a whopping 1,6 inches of water column. The engines produced the coveted 13363 indicated forces. Unfortunately for Sir William White, who designed the battleship, and the Portsmouth shipyard that built her, the smoke tubes only lasted three hours. After four hours, the tubes began to leak.

                To prevent the same thing from happening to other ships in the series during trials, the British Admiralty decided not to pursue the desired crane power of 13,000 indicated horsepower and instead limited forced draft to 11,000 indicated horsepower (as I understand, the boiler steam output under forced draft had to be increased by ~22% over that achieved with natural draft). Below is a direct quote (without yats or Latin letters):

                "11,000 horsepower was achieved by moderate forced draught; but the air pressure required for this force turned out to be very different; this once again shows that machines are subject to good and bad luck. Thus, for example, the Revenge, in spite of bad weather, held only 0,46 inches, the Resolution - almost twice as much, the Empress of India and the Royal Oak - a whole inch each. And the Ramillies - only 1/3 of an inch. Of course, the quality of the coal and the experience of the stokers have an influence on the draught necessary for a given force; unfortunately, this last factor, like many others that in one way or another influence the results of the test, does not lend itself to mathematical measurement and cannot be included in any formula."

                So, dear Andrey, please remember this, and I hope dear Yuri will too. A fan-assisted draught of 1/2 inch of water column in the stokeholds is not "natural draft." It's "moderate boost."

                In a well-designed and manufactured crane-manufactured unit from the early 1890s, such pressurization of the stokers was capable of increasing the steam output of the boilers and, accordingly, the power of the machines by ~20-25%, compared to the operation of the same machines under natural draft.

                And yes, with such excess pressure in the stokeholds, the ship could “go for quite a long time, 6 and 12 hours.”

                The smoke tubes in the boilers of the Empress of India and Royal Oak withstood the entire multi-hour cycle of sea trials at full speed with an excess pressure in the stokeholds of 1 inch of water column.

                The Royal Sovereign's smoke tubes started leaking only in the 4th hour of testing at maximum speed with excess pressure in the stokeholds of 1,6 inches of water column and engine power up to 13,363 indicated horsepower (48,4% greater than the design achieved with natural draft).

                I hope this explanatory work of mine today won't be in vain, and you'll remember some of what I've just written. In the future, you won't have to tell your numerous readers "fairy tales" about what natural draft was and what forced draft was in the stokeholds of ships from the 1890s and early 1900s.

                https://viewer.rusneb.ru/ru/000200_000018_RU_NLR_BIBL_A_022630939?page=3&rotate=0&theme=white

                P.S. And yes, the MTK was clearly being cautious when setting the boost limit at 1/2 inch of water column. They could have set it at 1 inch of water column for the 6-hour tests of the crane manipulators with fire-tube boilers. The maximum boost pressure for the Belleville boilers, which were difficult to boost, is a different matter.
                1. +4
                  29 August 2026 09: 01
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  So, dear Andrey, please remember this, and I hope dear Yuri will too. A fan-assisted draught of 1/2 inch of water column in the stokeholds is not "natural draft." It's "moderate boost."

                  to which you have already been told
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  One can argue about the terminology and whether such pressure can be called forcing or not. But one must never ignore the fact that a ship can sail for a very long time at half an inch of overpressure—six or even twelve hours—meaning that in any case, this regime is the norm for a warship's full speed.
                  During the trials of the Japanese cruisers you're championing, the mechanisms were boosted at higher pressures, and they couldn't operate at that level for long. Therefore, it's impossible to say that the Asama and Bayan were compared at the same propulsion system operating mode, but that's precisely what you're trying to prove.

                  And you have nothing to object to - except outright lies, as in the case of the reference to Paul 1
                  1. 0
                    29 August 2026 12: 58
                    I've presented the facts. On the Royal Sovereign, fire tubes on two boilers leaked after three hours of "excessive" overpressure of 1,5-1,6 inches of water column. During trials of subsequent battleships in the project, such excessive overpressure was abandoned, and on these ships, with overpressure in the stokeholds of 0,3 to 1 inch of water column, the engines reached 11,000 horsepower during four-hour sea trials, compared to the designed 9000 horsepower under natural draft—i.e., an increase in power of approximately 22% over the designed power under natural draft.

                    I cite figures, facts, and references to historical sources. And what do I see in response? Your emotional responses to the effect that I'm lying, that I've already been told something, and that I supposedly have nothing to say in response.

                    If you repeat a "fairy tale" too many times, it doesn't become true, dear Andrey. So, like you, dear Andrey, stop being so emotional and start citing facts and figures, citing historical sources. Otherwise, it's like I'm arguing with a woman who thinks that if she gets the last word in the discussion, she's right. Please, stop this feminine approach to "discussion."

                    I expect you to provide figures, quotes, facts, and references to historical sources to support your opinion, whatever it may be. I expect you to provide figures, facts, and references to everything you've said before. If you don't have any, why are you wasting your time on remarks that offer nothing but argumentative ad hominem? Because you're convinced I'm wrong? Well, I need to be proven wrong with figures, facts, and references to historical sources. Instead of repeating, "Oh, that's it!" and claiming I'm a liar.
                    1. +5
                      29 August 2026 13: 26
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      I've presented the facts. On the Royal Sovereign, fire tubes on two boilers leaked after three hours of "excessive" overpressure of 1,5-1,6 inches of water.

                      Dear Alexander, the battleship Royal Sovereign had problems not only with its boilers but also with its engines and shafts. During the 1893 exercises, the Royal Sovereign reached a maximum speed of 14,7 knots, after which it was sent for "routine repairs."
                      During testing of subsequent battleships of the project, such immoderate forcing was abandoned, and on these ships, with excess pressure in the stokeholds from 0,3 to 1 inch of water column, the engines during 4-hour sea trials reached a power of 11,000 horsepower against the designed 9000 horsepower with natural thrust, i.e., they increased the power by ~22% against the designed one with natural thrust.

                      They did not increase the pressure because there was no need for it.
                      "Empress of India" on natural draft power 9507, 96,2 revolutions, speed 16,1 knots.
                      On forced draft, pressure is 1 inch, power is 11625, 102 revolutions, speed is 17,9 knots.
                      At that time, it was difficult to guarantee that all manufactured boilers and machines would be 100% identical in their technical characteristics.
                      1. -1
                        2 September 2026 11: 15
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        Dear Alexander, the battleship Royal Sovereign had problems not only with its boilers but also with its engines and shafts. During the 1893 exercises, the Royal Sovereign reached a maximum speed of 14,7 knots, after which it was sent for "routine repairs."

                        It happened, of course. Only eight battleships of this type were built, all with crane manipulators, according to a single design. But the quality of the manufacturing process varied.

                        And we know what decisions were made by the British Admiralty based on the results of the sea trials of the lead "Royal Sovereign" (no more attempts to "drive" the crane manoeuvres with forced supercharging to 13,000 horsepower) and the crane manoeuvres of which battleships of this type were successful, and which were not so successful.

                        On successful crane manoeuvres on battleships of this type, a forced-blast pressure of 0,3 to 0,46 inches of water column was sufficient to increase engine power from 9000 horsepower under natural draft to 11,000 horsepower under forced-blast. However, on unsuccessful ones, to achieve the same result, excess pressure in the stokeholds had to be increased to 1 inch of water column.
                      2. +2
                        2 September 2026 16: 17
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        And we know what decisions were made by the British Admiralty based on the results of the sea trials of the lead "Royal Sovereign" (no more attempts to "drive" the crane manoeuvres with forced supercharging to 13,000 horsepower) and the crane manoeuvres of which battleships of this type were successful, and which were not so successful.

                        The British Admiralty's dream is to increase the pressure during forced draft to 3 inches. But here, as in the song "Dreams Come True and Dreams Don't Come True,"
                      3. 0
                        2 September 2026 17: 52
                        Well, they later reached it, and then even exceeded it. But then, on the Yarrow, Babcox, and Wilcox boilers.

                        https://www.firgelliauto.com/blogs/mechanisms/yarrow-water-tube-boiler

                        Yarrow Water Tube Boiler Mechanism: How It Works, Diagram, Parts, Calculator and Naval Uses

                        Forced draft casing: Sealed steel casing around the entire boiler maintained at 2-6 inches water gauge above atmospheric by closed stokeholds or fan-fed air ducts. This drives combustion air through the fire at high rates, allowing evaporation rates of 8-10 lb steam per lb fuel.

                        This, of course, does not apply to the times of the Russo-Japanese War.
                2. +2
                  29 August 2026 09: 58
                  Good afternoon.
                  And yes, MTK was clearly being overly cautious by setting the overpressure limit at 1/2 inch of water column. They could have set it at 1 inch of water column for the 6-hour testing of crane manipulators with fire-tube boilers.

                  The MTC made the right decision, based on the experience of the British Navy, which used forced draft. However, your reasoning overlooked an important point. Under combat conditions, the crane manoeuvre hatches are closed, which reduces the engine's power compared to operating under natural draft with open hatches. With a 0,25-inch increase in pressure, the engines cannot achieve the power they produce under natural draft with open hatches. Only by increasing the pressure to 0,5 inches can the engine achieve a power equivalent to natural draft with open hatches, and sometimes even exceed it without significant damage to the crane manoeuvre. Furthermore, the dependence on the area of ​​the firebox grates must be taken into account. This data is also important for understanding the system's operation. Based on these experiences, the British Admiralty also revised the rules for conducting sea trials.
                  As the designs of the crane manipulators improved, adjustments were made to the sea trials.
                  1. 0
                    2 September 2026 11: 03
                    Quote: 27091965i
                    The MTC made the right decision, drawing on the experience of the British Navy, which used forced draft. However, in your reasoning, you overlooked an important point. In combat conditions, the crane manoeuvre hatches are closed, which reduces the machine's power compared to operating under natural draft with the hatches open.

                    It seems you haven't realized that it was the sealing of the stokeholds that allowed for the much-discussed "forced blast" excess pressure in the stokehold compartments to be achieved through the use of fan machines, which allowed for the intensification of coal combustion on the boiler furnace grates from approximately 100 kg per square meter of grate per hour to 145 kg per hour, and even more.

                    Some respected participants have stated here that a 1/2-inch water column of excess pressure in the stokeholds could be achieved using fan-assisted pressure even with the stokehold hatches open. However, they failed to provide any references to support their opinions, and I simply cited the sea trials of the battleship "Emperor Paul I." Fan-assisted pressure provided a 1/2-inch water column of excess pressure in the stokeholds (and the corresponding maximum power of the ship's machinery) only in closed stokeholds. When the stokehold hatches were opened, all fan-assisted pressure immediately escaped into the hatches, and that was it, the pressure in the stokeholds equalized with atmospheric pressure.

                    https://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/BKM/Pavel_1/24.htm

                    "On August 3, 1911, the commission carried out a verification test of the mechanisms for 3 hours at 0,9 of the highest number of revolutions of the main engines obtained during their official test, i.e. at 100-101 revolutions. All 25 boilers were under steam, the fan machines were running without pressure in the stokehold compartments, with open hatches. The average result was: the indicated power of the right engine was 7285,5 steam horses, the left 7427,5, the total indicated power of both engines was 14713 steam horses, at average speeds: right engine 96,7, left engine 99,33 rpm."

                    So, I hope in your next reply you will NOT disagree with the statement that, with the fan engines running, forced air pressure in the stokers of 1/2 inch of water column could only be achieved with the stokers' hatches closed, and that this forced air pressure in the stokers allowed, with a well-designed crane manipulator, to achieve a 20-25% increase in engine power compared to natural draft (that is, when there is no excess pressure in the stokers). On less than successful crane manipulators (see the tests of the Royal Sovereign-class battleships), to achieve the same result, sometimes the excess pressure of the "forced air" in the stokers had to be increased to as much as 1 inch of water column (and on well-designed, i.e. successful, engines, on some Sovereigns, even 1/3 - 1/2 inch of water column was sufficient).
                    1. +2
                      2 September 2026 14: 08
                      It is enough to light a stove once in your life to understand the essence and purpose of stove dampers (the same hatches - side view)
                      1. +1
                        2 September 2026 14: 47
                        I still hope to wait until someone who wrote about natural draft with fan-assisted blowing of closed boiler rooms provides links to sources of their knowledge.

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft_(boiler)

                        Types of draft

                        Drafts are produced by the rising combustion gases in the stack, flue, or by mechanical means. For example, a boiler can be put into four categories: natural, induced, balanced, and forced.

                        Natural draft: When air or flue gases flow due to the difference in density of the hot flue gases and cooler ambient gases. The difference in density creates a pressure differential that moves the hotter flue gases into the cooler surroundings.[2]

                        Forced draft: When air or flue gases are maintained above atmospheric pressure. Normally it is done with the help of a forced draft fan.[2]

                        Induced draft: When air or flue gases flow under the effect of a gradually decreasing pressure below atmospheric pressure. In this case, the system is said to operate under induced draft. The stacks (or chimneys) provide sufficient natural draft to meet the low draft loss needs. In order to meet higher pressure differentials, the stacks must simultaneously operate with draft fans.[2]

                        Balanced draft: When the static pressure is equal to the atmospheric pressure, the system is referred to as balanced draft. Draft is said to be zero in this system.[2]
                      2. +1
                        2 September 2026 14: 56
                        The funny thing is that religion doesn't prohibit turning on fans when the hatches are open...
                        It seems that you can't prove anything to each other (it would be more appropriate this time to write from colleague to colleague, and it's not your fault) -- I already wrote to your opponent that after turning on the air conditioner, you should roll up the windows, but it's not necessary, is it?
                      3. +1
                        2 September 2026 15: 59
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        The funny thing is that religion doesn't prohibit turning on fans when the hatches are open...

                        It doesn't prohibit it. But all the excess pressure escapes into these very hatches, and, as Rafail Mikhailovich Melnikov's book "The Battleship Emperor Paul I" explains:

                        https://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/BKM/Pavel_1/24.htm

                        "All 25 boilers were under steam, the ventilation machines were operating without pressure in the boiler rooms, with the hatches open. The average result was: the indicated power of the right engine was 7285,5 steam horses, the left 7427,5, the total indicated power of both engines was 14713 steam horses, at average speeds: the right engine 96,7, the left engine 99,33 rpm."

                        And with the hatches closed:

                        "During the test, the steam in the boilers was maintained exactly within the pressure limits set by the specification. In the stokers, the fan engines maintained an air pressure of up to 1/2 dm of water column... The indicated power of the left engine was 9410 steam horses, the right 9186,5. The total indicated power of both engines was 18596,5 steam horses. Coal consumption was recorded during the average six hours of the test and amounted to 280126 Russian pounds."

                        280126 Russian pounds is 114,715 kg. Divide by 6 hours. 19,119 kg per hour. Divide by the grate area. 153,71 m². 124,38 kg of coal per m² of grate per hour.

                        For comparison, S. V. Nesolyonny "The Cruiser Gromoboy"

                        "...the normal force of the mechanism at 14500 indicated horsepower is calculated on the assumption that approximately 100 kg per hour will be burned on one square meter of grate. If forcing is allowed and the corresponding amount of coal is increased to 125 kg, then the machine at the same pressure will develop up to 16500 indicated horsepower."

                        It's just that two theses were voiced by respected commentators in the discussions here:

                        1. When the fan machines were operating, excess pressure in the stokeholds of 0,5 inches of water column was achieved even with the hatches open.

                        2. 0,5 inches of water column is not forced air, but a “natural draft”.

                        The respected comrades who voiced these theses did not share links to documents that would provide argumentative support for these theses.

                        And the example of the sea trials of the battleship "Emperor Paul I", in which excess pressure in the stokeholds of 0,5 inches of water column was achieved only with the fan machines operating with the stokehold hatches closed, as well as the coal consumption during these tests of 124,38 kg per meter of grate per hour, demonstrates that the stated theses of the respected commentators were erroneous.
                        It seems that you cannot prove anything to each other (it would be more appropriate to write colleague to colleague this time, and it is not your fault)

                        Alas. Some people are ready to insist they're right to the end, even when they realize they were wrong. I'm not like that. I admit my own mistakes. wink
                    2. +2
                      2 September 2026 16: 13
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      It seems you didn't understand that it was the sealing of the boiler rooms that made it possible to obtain the excess pressure being discussed through the pressurization of the fan machines.

                      Alexander, find W. White's 1892 report "Sea Trials in the English Fleet"; it explains everything well. It's more serious than the "Kronstadt Herald." I can't quote it now; my old laptop is dead, and the new one is empty. I'll remove the hard drive and post some information.
                      1. 0
                        2 September 2026 18: 03
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        Alexander, find W. White's report "Conducting Sea Trials in the English Navy" from 1892, it explains everything well.

                        I don't need an explanation for everything. I need to understand where the esteemed commentator Yuri got this:

                        "Half an inch was produced naturally by running the fans at full power with the stokehold hatches open.
                        Artificial blowing was considered to be pressurization with the stokehold hatches closed and the pressure greater than half an inch of water column."


                        After all, according to R.I. Melnikov's book, a half-inch water column on the battleship "Emperor Paul I" with the stokehold hatches open was impossible. Instead, "the ventilation machines operated without pressure in the stokehold compartments, with the hatches open."
                        I can't quote any excerpts from it right now; my old laptop is dead, and the new one is completely dead. I'll remove the hard drive and write it up.

                        I'll wait. It's not urgent.

                        It is very interesting to know who, and under what circumstances, managed to burn 125 kg of coal per hour per meter of grate in boiler furnaces with open stokehold hatches without "forced blast," and why this was not possible in the Russian Imperial Navy in the 1890s and early 1900s.
                      2. +2
                        2 September 2026 18: 35
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        I don't need an explanation for everything. I need to understand where the esteemed commentator Yuri got this:

                        "Half an inch was produced naturally by running the fans at full power with the stokehold hatches open.
                        Artificial blowing was considered to be pressurization with the stokehold hatches closed and the pressure greater than half an inch of water column."

                        Regarding the question posed, I think the esteemed Yuri himself should answer. I can only say that in the British navy, one type of sea trial involved moving a ship with open hatches and ventilators running.
                        It is very interesting to know who, and under what circumstances, managed to burn 125 kg of coal per hour per meter of grate in boiler furnaces with open stokehold hatches without "forced blast," and why this was not possible in the Russian Imperial Navy in the 1890s and early 1900s.

                        I admit, I've never really thought about this, but we're talking about comparing boilers installed on ships. Even boilers of the same type could have design differences.
                      3. 0
                        2 September 2026 19: 42
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        Regarding the question asked, I think the esteemed Yuri himself should answer you.

                        Dear Yuri is silent.
                        I can only write that in the English navy one of the types of sea trials was the movement of the ship with open hatches and ventilators on.

                        Was it common practice in some fleet to "rape" stokers for several hours by throwing 90-100 kg of coal per meter of grate per hour without cooling or ventilating the stokers with fan machines?

                        Of course, I'm talking about the 1890s, not the 1870s.
                        I admit, I've never really thought about this, but we're talking about comparing boilers installed on ships. Even boilers of the same type could have design differences.

                        Boilers of the same type and period had approximately the same performance indicators for this parameter.

                        https://ru.ruwiki.ru/wiki/Разработка_и_начало_постройки_лёгких_крейсеров_типа_«Светлана»

                        "A conventional Belleville boiler, during normal operation, allowed the combustion of 90-100 kg of coal per 1 m2 of grate per hour, while a Dolgolenko boiler, during testing, allowed the combustion of more than 200 kg of coal per 1 m2 per hour, approaching the "grate tension" parameter of the Yarrow boilers. [Tsvetkov, p. 67, 80]"

                        So, here they tried to tell me that 125 kg of coal per meter of grate per hour for a regular Belleville boiler is not at all a boost.

                        Frankly, it was a waste of time. The respected participants can't find references to the sources they knew that allowed them to believe this before, and the respected Andrey from Chelyabinsk writes to me that I'm disrespected and claims I'm lying about everything, but can't pinpoint exactly what. It happens. wink
                      4. +2
                        2 September 2026 20: 48
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Boilers of the same type and period had approximately the same performance indicators for this parameter.

                        Well, if we started with the Royal Sovereign-class battleships, these eight ships were equipped with a single boiler type with only three different design solutions. One boiler type, installed on the battleships Resolution and Revenge, was deemed superior in terms of performance and design. It's impossible to say that all the boilers installed on these eight ships were roughly identical in terms of technical characteristics: they had different numbers of fireboxes, grate areas, etc.
                      5. 0
                        2 September 2026 22: 12
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        It's impossible to call all the boilers installed on the eight ships approximately identical in technical characteristics: the number of fireboxes, grate area, etc., differ.

                        Can be generalized for all fire-tube cylindrical boilers.

                        https://samlib.ru/t/tonina_o_i/kotli_55.shtml

                        "The hourly amount of fuel burned with natural draft reaches 100 kg, and with Howden blast up to 130-140 kg per 1 m2 of grate."

                        For Belleville boilers, the RIF accepted that the amount of coal burned with natural draft could reach 90-100 kg of coal per 1 m2 of grate, and with forced draft, up to 125 kg of coal per 1 m2 of grate.

                        Unfortunately, a group of witnesses to natural draft in the crane manipulators of Russian ships has gathered here, trying to claim that a fan draft of 0,5 inches of water column is NOT forced draft, just as 125 kg of coal per square meter of grate is not forced draft in Belleville boilers. I've already counted three or four such witnesses here, led by the respected Andrey from Chelyabinsk.
                      6. +3
                        3 September 2026 09: 47
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Can be generalized for all fire-tube cylindrical boilers.

                        https://samlib.ru/t/tonina_o_i/kotli_55.shtml

                        The link you provided contains generalized data that doesn't apply to a specific ship's boiler. For a precise understanding, its design is essential. The use of different grate types affects coal consumption. The design of the furnaces determines how much coal can be loaded. The ability to install mantles on the furnaces affects air pressure and the decision to open or close the crane manholes. Coal quality also plays a role. To understand this issue, it's necessary to study the technical literature of the time, test reports on different boiler types, and experimental results.
                      7. 0
                        4 September 2026 13: 25
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        The link you provided contains generalized data that is not applicable to a specific boiler on a ship.

                        Yes, encyclopedias contain generalized data on both cylindrical fire-tube boilers and Belleville boilers.

                        In particular, information is that in the furnaces of these boilers with natural draft it was possible to burn no more than ~100 kg of coal per square meter of grate per hour.

                        Apparently there were some exceptions. For example, on American cruisers with 100-foot-tall smokestacks, I believe they were able to burn slightly more coal per meter of grate per hour under natural draft, if necessary.

                        Every exception had a technical explanation.
                      8. 0
                        4 September 2026 14: 13
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        In particular, information is that in the furnaces of these boilers with natural draft it was possible to burn no more than ~100 kg of coal per square meter of grate per hour.

                        Alexander, in the German Navy, there was a concept called "underwind," which is what you and Andrey are arguing about. The operation of ventilators with hatches open. I'll give you an excerpt from German documents:
                        " Die Engländer schliefsen den Unterwind in den Begriff »forced draught« ein, und daher kommen, dass man in vielfach den durch Unterwindgebläse erzeugten künstlichen Druck fälschlicherweise als künstlichen Zug bezeichnet. "1890.
                        It is therefore worth considering what different navies meant by natural draft and how much coal was burned.
                      9. 0
                        4 September 2026 14: 52
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        It is therefore worth considering what different navies meant by natural draft and how much coal was burned.

                        Yes, in different fleets the understanding of the term was clearly somewhat different.

                        It can only be noted that in the Russian Imperial Navy, this understanding was quite conservative by the time of the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905, as were the permissible values ​​for excess pressure when forcing boilers with fan supercharging.

                        Dear Andrey, the attitude towards this issue in the RIF was correct, while in the British and, accordingly, Japanese fleets, it was wrong.

                        Well, one can recall only one battle between large artillery ships, the battle in the Korean breakthrough, in which the Gromoboy and Rossiya were able to maintain a speed close to the designed maximum speed of these cruisers for a long time.

                        And even in this battle, the Japanese armored cruisers refused to continue the fight, not because their manoeuvring mechanisms were not up to the task.

                        Admiral Kamimura gave the order to cease the battle only because he considered that he was already low on ammunition, and that he might still have to fight those lone ships of the 1st TOE that had not returned to Port Arthur after the battle and were trying to break through to Vladivostok by the shortest route.

                        Admiral Kamimura was mistaken. He should have closed as close as possible to the Russian armored cruisers, whose fire was already weak but whose speed was still high, and:

                        "Shoot, shoot to the last, and perhaps the last shot will bring you (final) victory."
                      10. 0
                        4 September 2026 15: 48
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        It can only be noted that in the Russian Imperial Navy, this understanding was quite conservative by the time of the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905, as were the permissible values ​​for excess pressure when forcing boilers with fan supercharging.

                        In what actions of RIF did you see conservatism and why did you decide so?
                      11. 0
                        4 September 2026 19: 32
                        The views of the military-political leadership of Russia in general and the leadership of the Russian Imperial Forces in particular on a possible war with Japan were adventuristic, while the decisions of the International Technical Committee reflected technical conservatism and an enthusiastic attitude towards the "advanced technical thought" of the French "teachers".

                        Surprisingly, the Russian Imperial Navy was defeated at sea by a power whose fleet initially consisted of six, and then only four first-class squadron battleships.
                      12. 0
                        4 September 2026 21: 42
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        The views of the military-political leadership of Russia in general and the leadership of the Russian Imperial Forces in particular on a possible war with Japan were adventurous,

                        The main reason lies in the state's governance system. Ships have nothing to do with it.
                        and in the decisions of the MTC there was technical conservatism and an enthusiastic attitude towards the “advanced technical thought” of the French “teachers”.

                        Until 1897, priority was given to designs developed in England. Interest in French designs arose later.
                      13. 0
                        4 September 2026 22: 43
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        The main reason lies in the state's governance system. Ships have nothing to do with it.

                        The army, especially in the defense of Port Arthur, performed much more creditably. However, the army lacked many of the same qualities as the Japanese, including modern high-explosive shells for field artillery. For the newest three-inch guns, the model 1900/1902, the only available shells were shrapnel. Moreover, the military department was much quicker to address glaring technical deficiencies than the navy. The same three-inch melinite high-explosive shell, urgently developed by V.I. Rdultovsky for the model 1900/1902 gun, was accepted into service and put into production in 1905. However, the high-explosive shell for the 75mm Kane gun, for example, was not adopted in time.

                        But it would seem that there is only one system of government...

                        Quote: 27091965i
                        Until 1897, priority was given to designs developed in England. Interest in French designs arose later.

                        Canet cannons, Belleville boilers, French-style gun turrets. The influence of the Jeune École on admiralty minds. That same luminary of thought, Admiral Makarov, was so impressed that he began persistently spouting nonsense about his "armorless ships."
                      14. 0
                        5 September 2026 10: 28
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Although the army lacked many of the same qualities as the Japanese, such as modern high-explosive shells for field artillery. For the newest three-inch guns, the Model 1900/1902, only shrapnel was available. Moreover, the military department was much quicker to address glaring technical deficiencies than the navy. The same round with a high-explosive melinite three-inch grenade, urgently developed by V.I. Rdultovsky for the Model 1900/1902 gun, was accepted into service and launched into production in 1905.

                        Experience from the Russo-Japanese War showed that Japanese shimoza-loaded field artillery shells suffered from the same drawbacks as British lyddite-loaded shells used in the Boer War. Most of them failed to explode when they struck soft soil. Small fragments did not incapacitate enemy infantry, and the blast wave produced by shelling trenches was very limited. Destroying field fortifications required shells of calibers greater than 90 mm. High-explosive shells from 75 mm guns were suitable only for destroying barbed wire. The primary purpose of a 75 mm gun was to destroy enemy infantry. Therefore, the lack of such a shell at that time was not critical.
                        But for example, they didn’t have time to produce a high-explosive shell for the 75 mm Kane gun.

                        As ranges increased, the use of 75mm guns in naval combat became irrelevant. Firing a 75mm gun mounted on a torpedo boat required more luck due to the unstable gun platform. Experimental firing of torpedo boats at various speeds in the British Navy in 1895-1896. Some of the 75mm guns were moved to the stern.
                        Canet guns, Belleville boilers, gun turrets of the French type.

                        The adoption of Canet's guns stems from comparative firing tests in 1892 at Le Havre between Canet's and Armstrong's 6-inch guns. Armstrong's design, while increasing the velocity of the armor-piercing shell, reduced the barrel life of the 6-inch gun to 80-90 rounds.
                        During that period of time, various types of boilers were considered, and the Belleville boilers were considered the most acceptable.
                        The installation of French-style turrets on the armored cruiser Bayan does not indicate that these turrets were the primary turrets of the Russian Navy. Turret design development began long before this.
                        The influence of the Jeune École on the admirals' minds.

                        The ideas of the Jeune École were considered by navies around the world, some accepted, others rejected. Russia never abandoned the construction of battleships in favor of destroyers and cruisers.
                        That same beacon of thought, our Admiral Makarov, was so inspired that he began to stubbornly talk nonsense about his “armorless ships.”

                        It wasn't only S.O. Makarov who was fascinated by the so-called "armorless ships"; Nathaniel Barnaby had become interested in this idea in England much earlier.
                        But it would seem that there is only one system of government...

                        The government is obligated to ensure a high level of education and support the development of production technologies. State-owned factories are still in existence.
                      15. -2
                        5 September 2026 12: 27
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        The experience of the Russo-Japanese War showed that Japanese field artillery shells loaded with shimoza had the same drawback as the British shells loaded with lyddite in the Boer War.

                        Could you provide a quote? Unlike British shells, Japanese shells had a blasting cap and a full-fledged booster detonator consisting of a high explosive. Although, of course, before the transition to more powerful explosives like tetryl, small boosters regularly malfunctioned. This was a common problem of the period.
                        Most of them did not explode when they hit soft soil.

                        British lyddite shells simply didn't produce a full detonation back then because they lacked detonator caps and proper booster caps. See Rdultovsky's essay.
                        Small fragments did not incapacitate the enemy infantry

                        What kind of small fragments had enough energy to "not disable infantry"? Do you know the definition of a lethal fragment?
                        The effect of the blast wave during the shelling of trenches was very limited.

                        Try comparing the Japanese field gun shell of that time with the Soviet 76 mm UOF-354M in terms of explosive mass in the shell. I should also note that the UOF-354M was a fragmentationhigh-explosive You have no objections to the projectile, do you?
                        To destroy field fortifications, a projectile of at least 90 mm caliber was required.

                        It's a shame that Soviet artillerymen often had to rely on the 76,2mm caliber during the Great Patriotic War. The USSR didn't have time to fully implement "howitzerization" and abandon the 76,2mm gun as the most widely used field artillery piece before the war, you see.
                        So the absence of such a projectile at that time was not critical.

                        The Russian army didn't think so.

                        https://history.milportal.ru/rdultovskij-otec-russkogo-fugasnogo-snaryada/?ysclid=mto5n6zr678675175

                        "The Russian field artillery entered the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905 armed only with shrapnel—which, due to a profound misconception, was credited with the universal properties of a 'single shell.' The very first months of the war revealed the inadequacy of such primitive ammunition, and persistent demands for high-explosive grenades began to arrive from the front. Vladimir Iosifovich immediately responded to the needs of the active army, designing the first 76-mm high-explosive grenade and organizing its production in such a way that by 1905 it was already arriving in the Far East. This circumstance is all the more remarkable because the issues of loading high-explosive grenades with powerful explosives had been insufficiently studied in Russia at the time, and the mass production of such shells at that time was in its infancy."

                        What else wasn't critical? The lack of 75mm high-explosive grenades in the Canet guns on Russian destroyers wasn't critical either?
                        The installation of French-style turrets on the armored cruiser Bayan does not indicate that these turrets were the main ones in the RIF.

                        The Bayan's turrets were not of the French type, but of French manufacture. The Poltavas' main gun turrets were of the French type. The Imperator Aleksandr II had a main gun barbette mount of the French type. And so on.
                        In Russia, they never abandoned the construction of battleships in favor of destroyers and cruisers.

                        In France, too, the construction of battleships was officially suspended only in 1886–1887.

                        I don't know why you're trying to argue with the fact that the most authoritative Western "teachers" in matters of naval technology and tactics for the RIF in the 1890s were not the British, but the French, but that's exactly the case.
                        The government is obliged to ensure a high level of education and support the development of production technologies.

                        Why is the Russian government's navy faring worse than its army's for over 175 years? Apparently, there's something unique about the internal workings of the Russian navy that has consistently proven unprepared for modern naval warfare against adversaries relying on technological innovation. The Russian navy could certainly successfully fight the Ottoman Empire at sea, or Saakashvili's Georgia. But that's all.
                      16. +1
                        5 September 2026 21: 39
                        Why be surprised?
                        Perhaps it's a strange coincidence that it was exactly 175 years ago that the scientific and technological revolution took off... The most advanced technologies, of course, fell to the lot of the navy, and the cavalry, for example, continued to rush across the fields with sabers and pikes almost until WWII.
                        Where it's thin, it breaks
            2. +2
              31 August 2026 15: 26
              And that all Russian ships... did not have any forced draft, they were all on natural draft only.

              You're using the wrong terminology. For you, any type of blast is always "forced," and "natural draft" always means without fans (i.e., the pressure in the boiler room is below atmospheric). This is incorrect.
              However, the implementation of this measure required additional energy consumption to drive the fans, increased the load on the mechanisms and increased the fatigue of the stokers.

              Stupid objections. Of course, it's easier with sails)) Without "stressed mechanisms" laughing
              1. -2
                2 September 2026 14: 06
                Quote: anzar
                You're using the wrong terminology. For you, any type of blast is always "forced," and "natural draft" always means without fans (i.e., the pressure in the boiler room is below atmospheric). This is incorrect.

                It seems you didn't understand that when the stokehold hatches were open, the ventilation machines were working... for ventilation, not to pressurize the stokeholds. You see, it was very hot there, and increased ventilation was required. But when the stokeholds were closed, the stokeholds were pressurized, and the coal combustion in the boiler furnaces intensified.

                If, with a pressure in the stokeholds NOT exceeding atmospheric pressure, i.e. with natural draft, it was possible to burn up to 100 kg of coal per meter of grate per hour, then with a formed blast, up to 140-150 kg of coal per meter per hour and even higher.
                Moronic objections.

                People who believe that the pressure in the boiler rooms was noticeably lower than atmospheric pressure during natural draft (by the way, how much lower in inches of water column, can you cite sources?) should be treated with understanding and sympathy.

                And you immediately start writing about some idiots. These are just banal cognitive deficits. wink For those who didn’t understand, the energy (steam) that went into driving the fan machines did not reach the propeller shafts.

                If the stokers were NOT closed, then this energy was spent simply on ventilation of the stokers, without intensifying the combustion in the boiler furnaces with pressurization.
                1. +3
                  2 September 2026 15: 03
                  "Comrade, I can't stand watch
                  Said the stoker to the stoker)))
                  ...The thermometer showed a whopping forty-five!..."
                  -- here is a "document" confirming the need to turn on the fans when the boiler room hatches are open
                2. +2
                  2 September 2026 20: 30
                  People who believe that the pressure in the boiler rooms was noticeably lower than atmospheric pressure during natural draft should be treated with understanding and sympathy.

                  Hmm, that's a bit more gentle... Did you cite figures for the vacuum created by a chimney of a certain height ("natural draft")? You did! Where do you think the vacuum zone ends? Without pressurization, it's not in the furnace or even in the boiler room, because for air to move anywhere, a DIFFERENCE IN PRESSURE is required! In a land-based boiler room, where the inlet openings are large, this difference is minimal, BUT on ships, especially military ones, this is not the case; the size of pipes and hatches is limited (for many reasons).
                  (by the way, how much lower in inches of water column, refer to sources?)

                  A school physics textbook is sufficient (and it should be for you)) If not, I understand and sympathize.
                  For those who don't understand, the energy (steam) used to drive the fan machines did not reach the propeller shafts.

                  More steam energy was released there than without fans—for those who didn't understand. And if we're talking about "savings," sails are more economical, but that's not accurate. wink

                  And finally, the term "forced" cannot always be applied to supercharging, but only to modes exceeding the nominal (calculated) ones. Otherwise, it turns out that all ships after the 10-20s always sailed "forced".
                  As applied to "our rams", a boost of 1/2" is not forced air.
                  And you immediately write about some idiots.

                  I won't write anymore. At all.
                  1. -1
                    2 September 2026 21: 58
                    Quote: anzar
                    Hmm, that's a bit more gentle... Have you given any figures for the vacuum created by a pipe of a certain height ("natural draft")? You have!

                    I've given the draft value generated by a chimney of a given height at a given flue gas temperature. Natural draft is calculated using a physical formula that takes into account the difference in weight between the column of cold air outside and the hot flue gas inside the chimney.

                    But I did not propose to equate this thrust value with a decrease in pressure in the boiler room.

                    In a properly designed boiler room (not in the firebox, but in the room itself), with natural draft, the pressure drops by a maximum of 2–5 Pa (0,2–0,5 mm H2O) below atmospheric pressure.

                    Comparing these 0,2-0,5 mm of water column with the natural draft of a 25-30 m high chimney, or with the 0,5 inches (12,7 mm) of water column of additional draft for blowing the boiler room with fan machines used in RIF, is simply not serious.
                    A school physics textbook is sufficient (and it should be for you)) If not, I understand and sympathize.

                    I don't see any calculations in your reply. Can you help me with the formulas?

                    https://inner.su/articles/tyaga-v-kotle-dymokhod/

                    By the way, the theoretical formula ΔPт = H × g × (ρн − ρг) is not found in school physics textbooks.
                    BUT in ships, especially military ones, this is not the case, the size of pipes and hatches is limited (for many reasons)

                    Can you provide a link to the limited supply ventilation for warships of the late 19th and early 20th centuries?

                    https://www.klimat-kontrol.com/blogs/voprosy-i-otvety/trebovaniya-k-ventilyatsii-v-gazovoy-kotelnoy

                    "The cross-section of the inlet opening is calculated based on an air velocity of no more than 1 m/s. Simplified: for every 10 kW of boiler power, at least 80 cm² of live cross-section is required."

                    So, let's take a 360 kW boiler. What's the required inlet cross-section? Correct, 2880 cm². In other words, the hatch is 45 x 64 cm.

                    I'm waiting for a link from you about the forced limitations of the cross-sectional area of ​​pipes and hatches for supply ventilation in the stokeholds of ships from the late 19th to early 20th centuries.
                    And finally, the term “forced” cannot always be applied to supercharging, but only to modes exceeding the nominal (calculated) ones.

                    I've already informed anyone interested that Belleville boilers, without booster combustion and using natural draft, burned no more than 90-100 kg of coal per square meter of grate per hour. You can read about it at this link:

                    https://ru.ruwiki.ru/wiki/Разработка_и_начало_постройки_лёгких_крейсеров_типа_«Светлана»

                    or directly in the book by I. F. Tsvetkov "Guards cruiser "Red Caucasus"

                    Please describe how these boilers were forced to burn 125 kg of coal per square meter of grate per hour.

                    I would like to inform you that for this purpose, on the same battleship "Emperor Paul I", a fan-assisted pressurization of the boiler rooms was used, with the pressure in the boiler rooms exceeding the atmospheric pressure by 0,5 inches of water column.

                    I look forward to hearing your story about how the Belleville boilers were actually boosted to burn 125 kg of beehive per meter of grate per hour.

                    The same was true for cylindrical fire-tube boilers.

                    https://samlib.ru/t/tonina_o_i/kotli_55.shtml

                    "The hourly amount of fuel burned with natural draft reaches 100 kg, and with Howden blast up to 130-140 kg per 1 m2 of grate."
                    As applied to "our rams", a boost of 1/2" is not forced air.

                    This is your personal, unfounded opinion. But you are certainly welcome to try to substantiate it. I look forward to hearing it.
        2. +2
          27 August 2026 16: 47
          Quote: AlexanderA
          The idea that Russian ships were supposed to demonstrate the contractual power of their steam engines and, accordingly, the contractual full speed under natural draft in their boiler rooms during sea trials is just a fairy tale, not supported by historical documents of the time.

          Alexander, this isn't a fairy tale, but the harsh truth. You really are telling fairy tales, speculating on the half-inch excess pressure allowed on Russian ships.
          One can argue about the terminology and whether such pressure can be called forcing or not. But one must never ignore the fact that a ship can sail for a very long time at half an inch of overpressure—six or even twelve hours—meaning that in any case, this regime is the norm for a warship's full speed.
          During the trials of the Japanese cruisers you're championing, the mechanisms were boosted at higher pressures, and they couldn't operate at that level for long. Therefore, it's impossible to say that the Asama and Bayan were compared at the same propulsion system operating mode, but that's exactly what you're trying to do.
          In fact, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Japanese test documents revealed that they had a pressure limit of half an inch under natural draft:))))))))
  4. +5
    26 August 2026 09: 16
    A good article, and easy to read. However, instead of a photo of the cruiser Suma, there's a photo of the cruiser Magicienne. Regarding range—according to the results of the Bayan's sea trials, with a normal coal supply, its cruising range was 3900 (10) miles and 1100 (20,5) miles. Another issue is that the Arthur had plenty of coal, but mostly stale Chinese coal, so the Cardiff was used only for destroyers. It was this coal that prevented the Novik from reaching Vladivostok without stopping in Korsakov. Although, what prevented its crew from following the example of the Poltava, loading up with Cardiff soaked in kerosene from the holds of sunken Japanese fireships? Incidentally, the minimum 1100 miles is the distance from the Arthur to Vladivostok at full speed, as specified in the design requirements for all ships of the Pacific squadrons. And a note about Jutland. The British battleships suffered the most damage not from German gunfire, but from their own gunfire. The turret foundations sank so much that subsequent repairs and reinforcements increased the battleships' displacement by 1000-2000 tons, and the Royal Sovereign sailed with an immobile aft turret until her decommissioning.
    1. +4
      26 August 2026 09: 49
      Quote: sergiogerasimo
      Only instead of a photo of the cruiser "Suma" there is a photo of the cruiser "Magicienne".

      I had such a suspicion:)))) Thank you!
    2. MSN
      0
      27 August 2026 09: 44
      and the Royal Sovereign sailed with a fixed stern turret until its decommissioning.

      Royal Sovereign did not participate in Jutland.
      The English battle forces suffered the most damage not from German guns, but from their own gunfire.

      "Invincible" and "Inflexible" have viewed this assertion with some surprise since December 8, 1914. For some reason, Puzyrevsky himself makes no mention of such incidents.
      1. +3
        27 August 2026 17: 47
        Quote: MSN
        For some reason, Puzyrevsky doesn’t have anything about such incidents.

        I have a suspicion that my colleague confused the Sovereign with the Warspite: the latter actually served until the end of its career with a jammed "X" turret, which was a consequence of being hit by a guided bomb on 16 September 1943.
      2. 0
        27 August 2026 20: 35
        Maybe Puzyrevsky wasn't aware? Did he take the "Gentlemen" at their word? It's enough to look at the official figures for the full displacement of British battleships before and after Jutland. Or better yet, provide a diagram of the Orion, for example. As well as the Royal Sovereign, for example.
        1. +2
          27 August 2026 21: 07
          Quote: sergiogerasimo
          It is enough to look at the official figures for the full displacement of British battleships before and after Jutland.

          Where can I see these numbers?

          Quote: sergiogerasimo
          It would be better to provide a diagram, for example, of "Orion".

          What data is this diagram based on?
          1. -1
            27 August 2026 22: 05
            Based on monographs on the Orion-class battleships.
            1. +3
              27 August 2026 22: 14
              Quote: sergiogerasimo
              Based on monographs on the Orion-class battleships.

              Can you be more specific?
              1. -3
                28 August 2026 08: 04
                Yeah, now I'll go buy a shovel and a bucket for the sandbox.
                1. +2
                  28 August 2026 13: 02
                  I have no more questions ...
        2. MSN
          -3
          28 August 2026 09: 31
          It is enough to look at the official figures for the full displacement of British battleships before and after Jutland.

          Totally insufficient. In 1944, the Renown's displacement was 1600 tons greater due to unaccounted spare parts and supplies, as it turns out. And how much can you build with 1600 tons of conspiracy theory?
          1. 0
            28 August 2026 09: 54
            It's funny. 1916 is different from 1944.
            1. MSN
              -3
              28 August 2026 11: 03
              It's funny. 1916 is different from 1944.

              It's not funny. The ship's displacement grew steadily throughout its life, including for completely unaccounted-for reasons. 1600 tons.
              1. 0
                28 August 2026 12: 05
                Very funny. All the reasons for the Renown's increased displacement have been thoroughly discussed.
              2. +1
                29 August 2026 05: 35
                There could have been so much paint there.
    3. +1
      27 August 2026 19: 05
      Quote: sergiogerasimo
      and the Royal Sovereign sailed with a fixed stern turret until its decommissioning.

      Their Renaun fought the entire war with a crack in its keel and chased Scharnhorst and Gneisenau.
      Quote: sergiogerasimo
      Regarding the cruising range - according to the results of the sea trials of the Bayan with a normal supply of coal, its cruising range was 3900 (10) miles and 1100 (20,5) miles.

      So, there was nothing stopping Diana/Pallada and Bayan from attempting a breakthrough, along with a fast collier (like Mongolia), when it became clear that anyone who didn't make it would be sunk. And neither Togo nor Kamimura would have even caught them at Port Arthur, with their squadron speed of 17 knots.
      1. +3
        27 August 2026 20: 08
        Yes, the Diana could have escaped to Vladivostok after the battle. However, the senior officer there was the "infamous" brainwasher Semenov, who convinced the commander that there wouldn't be enough coal to reach Vladivostok. Yes, if the ship were to break through at 17 knots, according to Semenov's calculations, while editing the chief engineer's report, 80 tons of coal were missing to reach Vladivostok. However, for this voyage, Semenov somehow strained all 24 boilers instead of the 20 required for this voyage, turning on the watermaker, galley, and refrigeration engine, which together would have consumed at least 40 tons of coal during this passage. Furthermore, the ship could have slowed to economical speed for the last 150-200 miles of the breakthrough. Thirty tons of machine oil could have been used to irrigate the coal in the boiler furnaces. Regarding "Mongolia" - it belonged to the Red Cross, not MorVed.
        1. +1
          27 August 2026 22: 57
          Quote: sergiogerasimo
          But the senior officer there was the "infamous" brainwasher Semenov, who convinced the commander that there wouldn't be enough coal to get to Vladivostok.

          After the Crimean War, Russian officers developed a kind of hydrophobia. And even after building a cruiser fleet, they couldn't find cruiser commanders eager to sail, not terrified of it.
          1. +5
            27 August 2026 23: 07
            Quote: clou
            Among domestic officers

            Semyonov is a truly fascinating character: it would seem he dragged the cruiser to Saigon, interned, signed a non-participation paper – sit back and wait for the war to end, but no... For some reason, at the speed of a worn-out horse, he raced halfway across the world, begged to be sent to Rozhestvensky's headquarters, went with TOE-2, and nearly perished at Tsushima...
            1. -1
              28 August 2026 07: 56
              The cruiser's commander allowed the officers to leave the cruiser before the official internment.
              1. +2
                28 August 2026 13: 00
                Quote: sergiogerasimo
                The cruiser's commander allowed the officers to leave the cruiser before the official internment.

                I won't argue: I reread "Payback" a long time ago.
                However, for some reason Semyonov was very worried that he might be hanged if captured...
          2. 0
            28 August 2026 08: 02
            Russia is not England, where even admirals were hanged.
        2. +1
          29 August 2026 05: 37
          This is ours! When you don't want to do something, you'll find a million reasons. Why go somewhere on a ship? You need to stay in port.
      2. +2
        27 August 2026 20: 51
        Quote: clou
        Their Renown actually has a crack in its keel

        Not in the keel. It seems like cracks have appeared along the upper deck near the smokestack openings.
        However, neither Bert nor Raven and Roberts mention such a fact, nor do they mention any work to strengthen the hull.

        Quote: clou
        (like Mongolia)

        "Mongolia" - a floating hospital since February 1904.
        If only the Angara with its 20 knots, but since July 1904 it has also been a floating hospital...
        1. MSN
          -1
          28 August 2026 14: 17
          Not in the keel. It seems like cracks have appeared along the upper deck near the smokestack openings.

          In 1945, by order of the Admiralty, he was transferred from the Far East to the homeland. He covered the entire distance at an average speed of 25 knots. Everyone should have such problems.
          1. +3
            29 August 2026 05: 40
            This is because in the English navy, inaction was not justified. Quite the contrary.
            1. MSN
              -1
              29 August 2026 17: 25
              This is because in the English navy, inaction was not justified. Quite the contrary.

              That's not the point. If there had been a really serious crack in the deck, they wouldn't have tried to drive the horse.
        2. -1
          29 August 2026 08: 13
          The Angara had problems with its boilers, so its boilers were used as spare parts for the squadron's ships.
  5. +4
    26 August 2026 11: 03
    Good afternoon.
    Dear Andrey, thank you for continuing.
    The armored cruiser Bayan was conceived as an armored reconnaissance vessel for service with a squadron, which at the same time “does not cease to be a combat vessel.”

    The armored cruiser Bayan fully meets the requirements placed upon it. It's difficult to judge whether this ship is better or worse than other cruisers, as the customer's tactical views and financial capabilities play a role in the design.
    It seems to me that the English Admiralty gave a very good answer to this question, better or worse, at one time;

    " An ironclad aims to achieve naval dominance, so its primary characteristics are high combat power and maneuverability. A cruiser, on the other hand, is designed for reconnaissance and the protection of trade routes, requiring good speed and a certain amount of combat power. Due to conflicting requirements for these characteristics, experts have yet to reach a consensus on which type of cruiser is the most effective.
    While it is generally accepted that a cruiser doesn't necessarily need to possess high combat power, there remains disagreement on this point. This is because modern cruisers have a displacement of 2000 to 14,000 tons, and their armament includes guns weighing from 1 to 30 tons, with varying numbers of guns. Some cruisers are similar in performance to second-class battleships, others are only slightly superior to torpedo cruisers, and still others are armed merchant ships.
    With so much variety, it's difficult to pinpoint the perfect cruiser. Not only is it unreasonable, it's also impractical.
    ."
  6. 0
    26 August 2026 12: 51
    The Bayan was very well protected from such hits. Its main armor belt, 167 mm thick at the waterline at normal displacement, could be penetrated by 12-inch, 331,7 kg armor-piercing shells at a range of no more than 48 kbt—and this was with a perfect hit at an angle of 90 degrees. If the deviation from the normal were 25 degrees, the range would be reduced to 42 kbt.

    Dear author! Why is the penetration distance greater with a perfect hit than with a real one?
    Or at a distance of more than 40 cables, do hits occur on the deck and not on the side?
    1. +4
      26 August 2026 13: 05
      Quote: Not the fighter
      Dear author! Why is the penetration distance greater with a perfect hit than with a real one?

      This is pure geometry. When a projectile hits armor at a 90-degree angle, it passes through along its optimal trajectory. In this case, its trajectory is perpendicular to the armor's plane, and its path through the plate is equal to the plate's thickness.
      When a projectile hits an armor plate at an angle, it travels diagonally and is forced to travel a distance greater than the plate's thickness. Therefore, a 90-degree impact is ideal for the projectile and allows it to penetrate the armor at maximum range. However, if the projectile hits at a 25-degree angle (i.e., at a 65-degree angle to the plate's surface), it must travel a greater distance through the armor, and the distance at which it will penetrate is therefore shorter.
      1. +2
        26 August 2026 13: 11
        Thank you, I understand everything, I was wrong.
  7. +5
    26 August 2026 15: 03
    Excellent article, nice to read...... good
  8. 0
    27 August 2026 09: 50
    The Battle of Jutland provides a good illustration, although it took place much later than the events described. It is generally accepted that the Germans emerged victorious in this clash of vanguards, as the British suffered far greater losses. However, it is often overlooked that John Beatty, at the cost of two battlecruisers, succeeded in locating the enemy's main force (the third British battlecruiser and the Lützow were lost later), while Frederick Hipper did not.

    An interesting view of Beatty's forces not as a fast wing of the British battle fleet, but as a "fleet of scout cruisers attached to the battle fleet." wink
  9. 0
    27 August 2026 09: 59
    The Akashi, which reference books give 19,5 knots, even during tests only achieved this speed with afterburner, and with natural thrust it showed only 17,8 knots.

    Dear Andrey, it seems you continue to convince readers that domestic warships of that time with fire-tube boilers and Belleville boilers had to demonstrate during tests the contractual power of steam engines, and accordingly the contractual speed of some hourly full speed, with natural draft in the stokeholds, and NOT with forced fan blowing into the stokeholds providing excess air pressure of 1/2 inch of water column.
    1. +1
      27 August 2026 11: 22
      Good afternoon.
      Dear Andrey, it seems you continue to convince readers that domestic warships of that time with fire-tube boilers and Belleville boilers had to demonstrate during tests the contractual power of steam engines, and accordingly the contractual speed of some hourly full speed, with natural draft in the stokeholds, and NOT with forced fan blowing into the stokeholds providing excess air pressure of 1/2 inch of water column.

      Dear Alexander, sea trials with forced propulsion demonstrated increased speed, but the official conclusions differed from the published reports. For example, sea trials of the armored cruiser Asama showed 20,37 knots with natural propulsion and 22,07 knots with forced propulsion. The conclusion states: "The guaranteed speed was 20 knots," meaning forced propulsion was used to determine the maximum capabilities of the crane manipulator.
      1. -1
        27 August 2026 19: 45
        Let me reiterate: the Rurik crane manipulator was supposed to deliver a contractual (design) capacity of 13250 indicated horsepower (it delivered 13588 indicated horsepower during testing) with the fans running and an excess pressure in the boiler rooms of 1/2 inch on the water pressure gauge. Could you comment on this?

        Otherwise, they're like some kind of "Asams." Dear Andrey, he constantly tells those present that in the Russian navy, the contractual (design) full speed was supposed to be achieved with natural draft. Not like the French and British with their forced-draft engines.
        1. +4
          28 August 2026 08: 05
          Quote: AlexanderA
          Let me reiterate: the Rurik crane manipulator was supposed to deliver a contractual (design) capacity of 13250 indicated horsepower (it delivered 13588 indicated horsepower during testing) with the fans running and an excess pressure in the boiler rooms of 1/2 inch on the water pressure gauge. Could you comment on this?

          Commenting on this fact kills your remarks at the root.
          Rurik developed slightly more power than intended - the deviation was as much as 2,55%, which is normal.
          You're now trying to equate this with the same "Asama," which had a 38,5% power increase with afterburner (13,000 with natural, 18,000 with boost). On the basis that the half-inch "Rurik" is "also afterburner." laughing
          If you didn't have a technical education, I might still be able, albeit with difficulty, to believe an honest mistake. But you do, so I don't believe it. And my question is: why are you lying?
          1. +2
            28 August 2026 12: 55
            Did I understand correctly that during the afterburner, not only was the equipment violated, but the stokers also worked in the pressure chamber?
            1. MSN
              0
              28 August 2026 14: 22
              25-35 mm of excess pressure feels negligible. When the FVU is running, 35 mm of boost is the minimum. When you open the hatch above your head at the end of the run, there's absolutely no sign of increased pressure or pressure equalization.
              1. 0
                29 August 2026 11: 30
                Thanks, the links to personal experiences are a truly valuable resource!
          2. -2
            28 August 2026 23: 39
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Commenting on this fact kills your remarks at the root.
            Rurik developed slightly more power than intended - the deviation was as much as 2,55%, which is normal.

            I already explained to you in another reply that pressurizing the stokeholds by a "whole" 1/3 inch of water column allowed the Ramillies to reach 11,000 horsepower, compared to the 9000 horsepower designed for natural draft, i.e., increased crane manoeuvrability by ~22%. Well, that's okay—fire-tube boilers (like the Rurik).

            Well, on the "Emperor Paul I" (it had Belleville boilers, I hope you remember that), the transition from a fan-assisted pressurization of 1/2 the water column to natural draft (with the stokehold hatches open) reduced the crane manoeuvre capacity by almost 21 percent, from 18596,5 horsepower to 14713 horsepower.

            And here you are suddenly puzzled by the percentage of excess of the actual maximum power during tests over the design maximum power.

            The engines of the cruiser Admiral Makarov (Bayan type) one day developed a power of 19,320 indicated horsepower during testing.

            Could you calculate the percentage by which the actual maximum power exceeded the design capacity? Or should I do the calculation? Or were the boilers on the cruiser Admiral Makarov "the wrong system"?
            1. +2
              29 August 2026 09: 04
              Quote: AlexanderA
              Well, on the "Emperor Paul I" (it had Belleville boilers, I hope you remember that), the transition from a fan-assisted pressurization of 1/2 the water column to natural draft (with the stokehold hatches open) reduced the crane manoeuvre capacity by almost 21 percent, from 18596,5 horsepower to 14713 horsepower.

              And they lied. Because Pavel developed 14,731 hp because the RPM of his cars during these tests was limited to 0,9 of the maximum achieved. That is, no one intended to reach full speed during these tests, and you know it.
              On August 3, 1911, the commission carried out a verification test of the mechanisms for 3 hours. at 0,9 of the highest number of revolutions of the main machines obtained during their official test, i.e. at 100–101 revolutionsAll 25 boilers were energized, and the fan engines were operating without pressure in the stokeholds, with the hatches open. The average indicated horsepower of the right engine was 7285,5, the left engine 7427,5, and the combined indicated horsepower of both engines was 14713. At average speeds of 96,7 rpm for the right engine and 99,33 rpm for the left engine.

              You are a liar, Alexandra.
              1. -2
                29 August 2026 13: 09
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                And they lied. Because Pavel developed 14,731 hp because the RPM of his cars during these tests was limited to 0,9 of the maximum achieved.

                The speed dropped to 0,9 of what had been achieved previously when the machines were operating at full power because the stoker compartments were depressurized, thereby negating the effect of the fan boost on the stoker compartments that had been closed during the previous stage of sea trials.

                With good crane manufacturability, a fan boost of 0,3-0,46 inches of water column was sufficient to increase the engine's power by approximately 22% compared to their power when operating under natural draft. With mediocre crane manufacturability, a boost of 1 inch of water column was required to achieve the same result. Trials of the Royal Sovereign-class battleships demonstrate this.

                The fact that the battleship Emperor Pavel I's control system demonstrated the same effect suggests that it was manufactured with sufficient quality (and the stokers during the sea trials were quite skilled, no worse than the best British ones).

                These are the facts, dear Andrey.
                You are a liar, Alexandra.

                Stop acting like a woman who was wrong, dear Andrey.
                1. +2
                  29 August 2026 16: 31
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  The revolutions dropped to 0,9 from what they had previously achieved when the machines were running at full power because

                  Quote where it is written.
                  Not only are you lying, but you're lying in a verifiable and stupid way. The quote clearly states that the tests weren't fully underway.
                  On August 3, 1911, the commission made verification testing of mechanisms for 3 hours at 0,9 of the highest number of revolutions of the main machines obtained during their official test, i.e. at 100–101 revolutions

                  In general, if you are going to lie, then at least try to make your lie at least somewhat resemble the truth.
                  1. -2
                    2 September 2026 13: 12
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    In general, if you are going to lie, then at least try to make your lie at least somewhat resemble the truth.

                    Are you deliberately pretending NOT to understand that if a crane manipulator designed for maximum power with "artificial draft" (one commentator has already made this point) were tested without this artificial pressurization, at atmospheric pressure in the stokeholds, then this crane manipulator, even with all boilers running, certainly could not demonstrate its maximum power and, accordingly, the ship could not demonstrate its maximum speed, but only demonstrated the speed it was capable of with natural draft in the stokeholds?
                    In general, if you are going to lie, then at least try to make your lie at least somewhat resemble the truth.

                    What am I lying about, dear sir? What exactly did I lie to you about?
                    1. +1
                      2 September 2026 15: 59
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      You are deliberately pretending that you don’t understand.

                      I deliberately caught you in the lie that you wrote about the trials of Paul 1
                      1. -2
                        2 September 2026 18: 27
                        On what lie exactly? Quote this lie. Perhaps I lied when I said that the maximum engine power of 18596,5 hp was achieved with an excess pressure in the closed stokeholds of 1/2 inch of water column? Or did I lie when I said that during these tests, coal consumption was ~124,38 kg of coal per square meter of grate per hour?

                        Could you perhaps cite a Russian historical source from that time that stated that, with natural draft and without forced air in the furnaces, it was possible to burn not 100, but 125 kg of coal per meter of grate per hour? Please cite the source and provide a link.
                      2. +2
                        3 September 2026 05: 49
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        On what lie exactly?

                        See above. Everything has already been quoted.
                      3. 0
                        4 September 2026 12: 49
                        Please specify exactly what lie you have accused me of. Or are you unable to articulate exactly which one?
                2. 0
                  29 August 2026 21: 58
                  Your comment on the quality of the Pavla 1 crane manipulator is right on topic with my previous question...
                  Based on the information you provided, can we conclude that Russian shipbuilders only reached the British level of the mid-1890s on the eve of WWI?
                  1. 0
                    2 September 2026 13: 36
                    You remember when the sea trials of the battleship "Emperor Pavel I" were conducted?

                    You are aware that, at the beginning of the 20th century, following a scandal in Parliament, the British Navy abandoned the use of Belleville boilers on new ships?

                    So, what's the level of comparison? Is the technical level of the Royal Sovereign crane with its fire-tube boilers comparable to that of the Emperor Paul I crane with its later Belleville boilers? Naturally, the technical level of the Emperor Paul I crane was higher.

                    Or should we compare the amount of coal burned during sea trials per meter of grate per hour, i.e., in addition to the technical level, also the level of work of the stokers?

                    I think that the level of British stokers during the sea trials of the Royal Sovereigns was NOT demonstrated during the trials of the Emperor Paul I in 1910.

                    On the other hand, the British Navy had a long and difficult time mastering the Belleville boilers. So much so that, as I mentioned above, in the early 1900s, following a parliamentary scandal, it was decided to abandon the use of these boilers in new designs (and rightly so, as the technically superior Yarrow, Babcock, and Wilcox boilers emerged). Meanwhile, the Russian Imperial Navy still clung to the Belleville boilers and attempted to improve them (the Belleville-Dolgolenko boilers), thereby demonstrating the technical conservatism typical of the Russian Navy in areas where it was unnecessary.

                    So what level exactly did you ask about?
                    1. 0
                      2 September 2026 14: 02
                      I'm like, in general)))
                      It is clear that each question requires a separate answer, which is ultimately useless (the exact formula always contains correction factors, some of which are calculated empirically in each individual case)))
                      I am interested in the qualitative lag of the military-industrial complex of the Republic of Ingushetia, expressed through the universal currency - time....
                      What I've collected together using the formula "half a finger is the ceiling" is 5-10 years...
                      Why do I need it?
                      The point is to reinforce the futility of participating in this race—time after time, we're overtaken on the turn, just by stepping on the gas... It seems to me like a casino-like system—if technology adoption is the rule, we're doomed, because the dealer holds all the cards. The response must be asymmetrical, otherwise we'll see Crimea, Tsushima, the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, and other Guderian-era wars near Moscow and Pauluses on the Volga.
                      1. 0
                        2 September 2026 14: 31
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        I am interested in the qualitative lag of the military-industrial complex of the Republic of Ingushetia, expressed through the universal currency - time....
                        What I've collected together using the formula "half a finger is the ceiling" is 5-10 years...

                        In Great Britain, the final decision to switch to the use of water-tube boilers of the Yarrow and Babcock & Wilcox systems was made in 1904. This decision was made following the work of a special Water-tube Boiler Committee, which put an end to the famous "Battle of the Boilers".

                        https://library.imarest.org/record/8264/files/v35b1p12a.pdf?ln=en

                        "Dreadnought" - Babcock and Wilcox boilers. "Invincible" and "Inflexible" boilers Jarrow.

                        Sevastopol-class battleships - Yarrow boilers.

                        Sea trials of the Dreadnought - 1906. Sea trials of the Sevastopol - 1914.

                        8 years behind.
                        The point is to confirm the futility of participating in this race - time after time we are overtaken on the turn by stepping on the gas...

                        If you are specifically talking about the navy, then it is our more than 170-year-old tradition of lagging behind technically.

                        In other branches of the Armed Forces, they were often ahead. Not under the Tsar, but still.

                        For example, the world's first mass-produced tanks with projectile-proof armor and long-barreled medium-caliber guns are ours.

                        Or the world's first ICBM.

                        Even the navy has its share of technological breakthroughs. For example, the world's first hypersonic anti-ship missile (Zircon) was developed by us.

                        But for the Navy to fight successfully, there must be no systemic technical failures that last for decades. Such was the failure of high-explosive shells, their fuses, optical sights and rangefinders, and artillery targeting methods before and during the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905.

                        Such was the failure of non-contact minesweepers, naval small-caliber anti-aircraft guns and combat boats at the beginning and during the Great Patriotic War.

                        This is the technical failure of the small-sized, single-post, mass-produced anti-aircraft gun to replace the ineffective AK-630M gun, which has been going on since Soviet times, and the failure of ship-based anti-boat guns, which is almost a quarter of a century old.
                      2. 0
                        2 September 2026 15: 26
                        Thanks for the specific details of the overall picture!
                        In general, that's about it.
                        I'm just digging very deep -- into the depths of biogeocenoses)
                        If, over the course of many centuries, we take advantage of the advantages of climate, terrain, soil, etc., such as spending less time and attention on preparing firewood and clearing snow, then the number of man-hours saved will translate into the quality of the final product (compared to the conditions of our tundra-swamp)...
                        And Churchill was even extremely surprised about the T-34 in his famous quote))), apparently hinting at the notorious and obligatory exception to the rule.
                      3. 0
                        2 September 2026 17: 25
                        At one time, I was impressed by A.P. Parshev's book "Why Russia Is Not America," which placed the notorious natural and climatic factors at the forefront.

                        Yes, natural and climatic factors dominated for thousands of years and had a significant impact on the way of thinking of the peoples who inhabited certain regions, but... in the industrial 20th century, much changed.

                        If we talk about the modern “permanent revolution in military affairs,” then in order to move at the cutting edge of progress, two things are needed:

                        a.) support and develop their scientific and engineering schools in all significant areas;
                        b.) fight, checking this:

                        "As you understand, no one else in the world has anything like this yet. It will probably appear someday, but in the meantime, our guys will come up with something else." V.V. Putin

                        In the 20th century, the United States boasted the world's best comprehensive science and engineering school. With the US victory in the Cold War, and especially since the beginning of the 21st century, this "collapsed."

                        Needless to say, there's no one in the US urgently needing to design a proper guided missile frigate. The Italian company Fincantieri won the competition with a slightly redesigned Bergamini-class frigate, a series of which Fincantieri was building for the Italian Navy as part of the FREMM program.

                        In the US, they managed to make this project even worse, and as a result, the frigate construction program... was cancelled, with the completion of two already laid down.

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constellation-class_frigate

                        "On November 25, 2025, then-Navy Secretary John C. Phelan announced that all but the first two ships of the class would be retired as part of a review of Navy strategy to focus on projects that could be completed more quickly.[20] At that time, Constellation was reported to be 12 percent complete.[20]"

                        What "projects that can be implemented faster"—unmanned boats? "That's a disgrace." (C)
                      4. 0
                        4 September 2026 14: 08
                        but... in the industrial 20th century, much has changed.
                        -- and Zhiguli surpassed Volkswagen?

                        a.) support and develop their scientific and engineering schools in all significant areas;
                        -- this card has always been covered by a banal brain drain.... There are tons of examples.
                        Brains follow stomachs to where the cultural and living conditions are better and where it's safer. I've personally proven this – business trips to Europe have weaned me off domestic cheese and beer, though I've come to appreciate the taste of rye bread and the beauty of Russian women.

                        b.) fight, checking this:

                        "As you understand, no one else in the world has anything like this yet. It will probably appear someday, but in the meantime, our guys will come up with something else." V.V. Putin
                        -- You're going to drive me to depression, because I immediately remembered the only talent of goblins in R. Tolkien's description.
                      5. -2
                        4 September 2026 14: 32
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        but... in the industrial 20th century, a lot has changed. -- and Zhiguli has surpassed Volkswagen?

                        The T-35-85 outperformed the Pz.Kpfw. IV Ausf. J.
                        This map has always been dismissed as a simple case of brain drain... There are countless examples. Brains follow their stomachs to places with better cultural and living conditions and safety.

                        You sound like you're writing from the 1990s. Everyone knows how safe the streets of Paris are today and what the cultural conditions are like in Brooklyn. Well, except for those who left long ago and are now trying to convince, perhaps mostly themselves, that they "did everything right" back then.

                        Frankly speaking, the behavioral motives of those "with an unsatisfied stomach" have always smacked of philistinism and have not seemed lofty.
                        Tested from personal experience: business trips to Europe have weaned me off domestic cheese and beer.

                        If you're "on business trips to Europe," you're not the kind of brains who develop weapons and military equipment. Beer is bad for men. Hops contain phytoestrogens, which lower testosterone and cause obesity.
                        You're driving me to depression, because I immediately remembered the only talent of goblins as described by R. Tolkien.

                        You shouldn't form your worldview based on the fantasy of J.R.R. Tolkien, the science fiction of Haruki Murakami, or even the works of Liu Cixin.

                        An interesting look at the role of science in the modern world is presented in the novel "Anathem" by Neal Stephenson.

                        The novel is considered difficult to read, but I didn't find it that way.
                      6. +2
                        4 September 2026 15: 19
                        It's not fair to compare the T-34-85 to the Pz.Kpfw. IV Ausf. J. for the same reason as comparing it to the Panther—they're in different weight classes...

                        About Paris, that's true - a dormitory named after Patrice Lumumba)))
                        However, the safety there, and most importantly not only there, is much better than what is shown on TV.
                        The question of the moral component of selfish interests is demagoguery (this is the first time I've noticed this in you)
                        When I wrote that there are tons of examples, I was of course not referring to myself (why would that be so), but to Sikorsky, for example.
                        Regarding beer, you certainly showed off your erudition, but you yourself should understand where the debate on such topics will go.
                        When it comes to forming worldviews, primary sources are the best foundation. Along with the Bible, there are fairy tales, myths, and sagas... I haven't read the novel you suggested (thanks, I'll have to check it out).
                      7. -2
                        4 September 2026 16: 31
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        It's not fair to compare the T-34-85 to the Pz.Kpfw. IV Ausf. J. for the same reason as comparing it to the Panther—they're in different weight classes...

                        It wasn't weight categories that were at war. But if you want weight categories to match, well, the IS-2 outperformed the Panther. Both tanks were very close in combat weight.
                        However, the safety there, and most importantly not only there, is much better than what is shown on TV.

                        You can wander around Moscow with an expensive gadget in your hand, and the chances of it being snatched from you are much lower than in Paris. Apparently, Paris is already overcrowded with people who come looking for good cultural and living conditions, bringing their Third World culture with them.
                        The question of the moral component of selfish interests is demagoguery

                        I have always considered the old Russian proverb very wise: "It's good where we are not."
                        When I wrote that there are tons of examples, I was of course not referring to myself (why would that be so), but to Sikorsky, for example.

                        To the example of Sikorski, or Kartveli, there is a counterexample of the "Red Baron" Bartini.

                        We live in a post-ideological society today, don’t we?

                        So why, continuing the path of error of first the Russian and then the Soviet intelligentsia, adhere to the ideology of Western centrism?

                        After all, when setting off for Josep Borrell's "flowering garden," one might, due to one's narrow-mindedness, arrive right at Spengler's "Twilight of the West." Or is "for our time" enough?
                        About beer

                        I simply didn't like beer back in my teens. Consider it my excuse for not drinking it.
                        When it comes to forming worldviews, primary sources are the best foundation. Along with the Bible, there are fairy tales, myths, and sagas... I haven't read the novel you suggested (thanks, I'll have to check it out).

                        Yes, I recommend it. There were moments that still make me smile. The main thing is not to give up after the first 200-300 pages, where the author introduces the reader to the world. I don't know why people consider this novel difficult. Unlike Simmons's "Hyperion," which I simply didn't finish, I read "Anathem" with great pleasure.
                      8. +1
                        4 September 2026 18: 14
                        I assume that you have already prepared the following responses to my yet unwritten comments?
                        This is a long-term issue and, frankly, not very interesting, except for the question of Western centrism... Yes, I confess – I'm guilty. But without any particular fanaticism, I simply understand that naked centrocentrism (patriotism) is a path to isolation, limitation, and impoverishment. I would have chosen the East, but it so happens that I don't know anyone there.
                        Of the same writers, perhaps perhaps Rabindranath Tagore, the same picture with directors - I only remember Kurosawa, they probably also had sculptors, artists and musicians there before, but somehow I never heard about them.
                        What can you do? From early childhood, all films and books, starting with those same fairy tales, are purely Western-centric...
                        Incidentally, I just remembered the Chinese detective story series about Bao Gong, but I have no idea who wrote it. The tradition of looking left on the map dates back to Rurik, but there really is something to see there.
                        Turning your head to the right, you see an empty, flat steppe a million parsecs wide, and it’s hard to turn your head with your innate, pro-Western torticollis...
                        Therefore, we will watch our feet for another twenty years, and then again in a circle - when we find out that you cannot be spiritually satisfied with the porridge falling from the beard of kvass patriotism.
                      9. -1
                        4 September 2026 19: 23
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        This is a long-term issue and, frankly, not very interesting, except for the question of Western centrism...

                        With the advent of the Age of Discovery, the West launched a successful, aggressive offensive against the rest of the world. This is not my idea, but that of the British historiosopher Arnold Joseph Toynbee. This idea was coined around 1947, when the USSR had not yet developed a domestic atomic bomb.

                        And now the West, or rather the Post-West, is retreating. If only for demographic reasons. But in reality, demographics are merely a consequence.

                        Today, trying to fit into the West, which is already retreating, is as foolish as trying to proactively cooperate with the Abwehr in 1944 or today trying to find a way to become an SBU agent in Russia.

                        But maybe we should return to our long-suffering Navy, which became intimidated by the "enlightened sailors" back in 1853 and has never recovered since?
                        Therefore, we will watch our feet for another twenty years, and then again in a circle - when we find out that you cannot be spiritually satisfied with the porridge falling from the beard of kvass patriotism.

                        There is no need for this juxtaposition of neatly shaven "Westerners" and "Slavophiles" with cabbage soup in their beards from the 19th century.

                        "For nearly a thousand years, Russians belonged not to Western civilization, but to Byzantine civilization—a sister society of the same Greco-Roman origins, yet a completely different civilization. Russian members of the Byzantine family have always strongly resisted any threat of falling under the influence of the Western world, and they continue to do so to this day."

                        Chronicles of the centuries-long struggle between the two branches of Christianity perhaps truly reflect that Russians have been the victims of aggression, and Westerners the aggressors, far more often than vice versa. Russians incurred the West's hostility through their stubborn adherence to Eastern Orthodox Christianity, a religion alien to Byzantine civilization. Russians adopted Orthodoxy at the end of the 10th century, and it must be emphasized that this was a conscious choice on their part. And after the capture of Constantinople by the Turks in 1453 and the disappearance of the last remnants of the Eastern Roman Empire, the Principality of Moscow, which by then had become a bulwark of Russian Orthodox Christianity's struggle against both Muslims and Catholics, shyly and quietly embraced the Byzantine legacy.


                        That's all, really. Sister civilizations, but different. Nothing lasts forever. But why did Byzantium outlive the Western Roman Empire by almost 1000 years? Perhaps because the Western Roman Empire rotted earlier. And today, the West, one way or another the heir to Western Rome, is clearly already rotting.

                        It's interesting that we are only 100 years removed from the time when 480 million people lived in the British Empire, a quarter of the entire population of the Earth at that time.

                        It was not the fall of the USSR, but the fall of the British Empire, which lasted for several decades, that was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century.

                        In 1926, Great Britain officially possessed the most powerful navy in the world.

                        Did not help.
                      10. +1
                        4 September 2026 20: 45
                        In my opinion, nothing has changed over the past century and a half – Britain just found itself a bigger island across the wider channel...
                        They're not sitting idle with demographics either—I noticed a very interesting detail:
                        In the Netherlands, almost all families (take my word for it - there are plenty of people there besides childfree and homosexuals) have a rule of adopting, in addition to their own children (usually two or three), a child from Asia or Africa, and these are almost always girls.
                        As far as I understand, this is encouraged and, what’s more, financially incentivized.
                        There is no need to go to a granny for advice - it is clear that from the beginning of the century proper selection work has been started with an eye to the ages...
                        And the fact that they seem to have let all sorts of scum into their midst is truly strange...
                        Having Poles and other Romanians at hand to choose roofing felt means we are misunderstanding something, there is definitely a reason.
                        Maybe our post-Soviet ones scared them)
                        -- Man, are you by any chance Polish?
                        -- No, I'm from Russia.
                        -- Oh, how wonderful! And then we had the Poles building here, and can you imagine: they fished in the canals and picked mushrooms in the forest!!!
                        (The girl didn't know that the most common mushrooms in Holland aren't hallucinogens, but the real "Polish whites")))... which grow there until mid-December (what a northern country, how do they position themselves), and also edible chestnuts, like our rowan berries - it's like a refrain about the stomach)
          3. -1
            28 August 2026 23: 58
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            You're now trying to equate this with the same "Asama," which had a 38,5% power increase with afterburner (13,000 with natural, 18,000 with boost). On the basis that the half-inch "Rurik" is "also afterburner."

            The Royal Sovereign achieved a power output of 13,363 horsepower, compared to the design power of 9000 horsepower under natural draft—a power increase of ~48,5% compared to the design power under natural draft, thanks to forced air blast. However, this was achieved with the boilers pressurized to 1,6 inches of water column, and the tubes on two boilers began leaking in the fourth hour of testing.

            38,5% on the Asam? Well, I imagine the pressure in the boiler rooms during the tests didn't exceed atmospheric pressure by more than 1-1,2 inches of water column.

            The smoke tubes of well-made fire-tube boilers withstood several hours of such forced pressurization without leaking.

            The Russian Maritime Transport Company played it safe by limiting the boost in the Rurik's stokeholds to 1/2 inch of water column. They could easily have increased it to 1 inch. However, even with this boost, the Rurik achieved an average speed of 18,4 knots, exceeding the contract speed by 0,4 knots. So, increasing the boost beyond 1/2 inch was pointless.
        2. +1
          28 August 2026 12: 01
          Let's compare the Rurik with the British Blake. Both had four Elder engines, modified versions of the first engines of this type built by Elder for the Russian Livadia and recognized by the British Admiralty as the standard for the British navy. Their output with natural draft ranged from 3500 to 4500 horsepower each. They were installed on more than 40 ships of the British and Russian navies. The Rurik and Blake had twin cylindrical boilers. The Blake's design speed with natural draft was 21,1 knots, with an output of 14000 horsepower and a boiler room pressure of 1/2 inch of water column, or 12,7 mm. Just like the Rurik? However, Blake's tests with open hatches failed, as the maximum power did not exceed 8000 hp. Therefore, the commission authorized closing the hatches. With forced blast, hatches closed, and a pressure of 2 inches (51 mm) of water, Blake's designed power and speed were 20000 hp and 22 knots. Rurik also had a designed power with forced blast, but it was limited to 16500 hp, at 1 inch (23,4 mm) of water. On the same Gangut, the power was 6000 hp and 9000 hp, that is, one and a half times the Blake's.
    2. +2
      27 August 2026 16: 49
      Quote: AlexanderA
      and NOT with forced fan blowing into the boiler rooms providing excess air pressure of 1/2 inch of water column.

      Dear Alexander, you've already received a response to this from both me and Yura 27, and it's been repeated again in this thread. You have nothing to say in response, but you continue to spam nonsense.
      1. 0
        27 August 2026 20: 34
        The design capacity of the machines with fans in operation and excess air pressure in the stokeholds of 1/2 inch according to the water pressure gauge, dear Andrey.

        Stop telling this fairy tale to those present that the design power of engines on Russian ships of the 1890s was only supposed to be achieved with natural draft. On ships with fire-tube boilers, this simply wasn't the case.

        With the introduction of the 1894 Belleville boilers, the Moscow Transport Committee (MTK) developed a quirk: it began requiring the contractual full speed to be achieved only under natural draft. This quirk affected a number of cruiser designs using these boilers. Surprisingly, the contractual speeds were no longer achieved during trials of these ships.

        With the transition to Belleville boilers of the 1896 model, the MTK fad passed, and when using water-tube boilers of Nickloss, Yarrow, Norman, and Thornycroft in the crane manipulators, it no longer appeared.
        1. +4
          28 August 2026 08: 07
          Quote: AlexanderA
          Stop telling those present the fairy tale that the design power of the engines on Russian ships of the 1890s should have been achieved only with natural draft.

          I answered above. You can call it whatever you like, but the fact is that the Rurik and Asama tests used different boiler operating modes. And yes, I think the Rurik test you described is a case of natural draft, meaning that half an inch was considered the boundary separating natural draft from artificial draft (it's clear that, theoretically, even a 0,000001 inch increase in pressure could be considered artificial draft).
          1. -1
            28 August 2026 11: 53
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            And yes, I think that the case of the Rurik test you described is precisely the natural draft, i.e., that half an inch was considered the boundary that cuts off natural draft from artificial draft.

            Who believed this, you or the esteemed Yuri? Name the historical figures who considered a fan-assisted pressurization of 1/2 inch of water column to be "natural draft." Provide quotes from documents that suggested this.

            For example, a 20-meter chimney under standard operating conditions (flue gas temperature about 200 °C, outside air +15 °C) provides a natural draft of approximately 0,37–0,38 inches of water column.

            To ensure a pressure difference of approximately 0,57 inches of water column under such conditions, a 30-meter-tall smokestack would be required. Russian ships did not have such smokestacks.

            And yes, the addition of fan-assisted ventilation to the sealed stokeholds was in addition to the natural draft of the chimneys, rather than replacing that draft.
            1. +1
              28 August 2026 12: 11
              Quote: AlexanderA
              Who believed this, you or the esteemed Yuri? Name the historical figures who considered a fan-assisted pressurization of 1/2 inch of water column to be "natural draft." Provide quotes from documents that suggested this.

              This was considered a requirement of the ITC, which did not allow excess pressure above 1/2 inch of water column.
              And finally, please provide the full-speed test times of Japanese armored cruisers to support your "point of view." Show documents showing they maintained 22+ knots for 6- or 12-hour runs.
              1. 0
                29 August 2026 12: 13
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                This was considered a requirement of the ITC, which did not allow excess pressure above 1/2 inch of water column.

                In Russia in the 1890s, the excess pressure created by fan engines in closed stokeholds, 1/2 inch of water column, was considered "moderate forcing." And you, and esteemed Yuri, believe it's "natural draft." Why both you and esteemed Yuri think so, God knows.

                I haven't seen any references to historical sources from either you or the esteemed Yuri explaining why. I'm still waiting for them. Will there be any?
            2. +1
              28 August 2026 13: 34
              On Russian ships, the blowers were also called "combat" blowers, and were designed, according to the specifications, to compensate for the loss of draft in the event of damage to the funnels during combat. This was their primary function! And you constantly distort the facts. Belleville's boilers differ from those of the Rurik in that they had constant internal pressurization from the Tirion's own blowers, independent of the blowers. That's why Belleville's boilers are so difficult to boost. Only Dolgolenko was able to overcome this difficulty, much later than the Russo-Japanese War.
              1. 0
                29 August 2026 12: 38
                Quote: sergiogerasimo
                On Russian ships, blower fans were also called combat fans and were designed, according to the specifications, to compensate for the loss of thrust in the event of damage to the funnels during combat. This was their primary purpose!

                Could you please cite a historical source that stated that the fan-assisted blowing of sealed stokers, where the stokers were adapted for this purpose, was intended only to "compensate for the loss of draft in the event of damage to the smoke stacks," and not to achieve the design (contractual) capacity of the mechanisms and the design (contractual) full speed?

                Could you point to combat episodes in which, after damage to smoke stacks on Russian ships, the fan-assisted ventilation of closed stokeholds compensated for the loss of natural draft from the damaged stacks during the battle and allowed the ship to maintain its speed?

                I'm quoting historical sources here, and they're just telling me their own ideas in response, without bothering to cite their sources. That's not how things work. Please provide links and quotes from historical sources that support your opinion on the matter, dear sergiogerasimo.

                I'll wait. And if there are no references to historical sources, perhaps you should start your comments by writing "In my (meaning, in your) opinion"?
                Belleville's boilers differ from Rurik's boilers in that they are constantly pressurized internally by Tyrion's own blowers, independent of the blower fans.

                The pressurization of the combustion space by piston machines on Belleville boilers with economizers was constant, i.e. it did not serve the purpose of forcing the crane manoeuvring mechanism, like the fan pressurization of closed stokehold compartments, or the fan pressurization directly into the furnace ash-pits, installed on some Russian ships with Belleville boilers.

                It was used to increase the efficiency of economizers, i.e. to improve the efficiency of crane manipulators, and not to increase the maximum power of the machines.

                We are now discussing the so-called "forced blast" to obtain maximum power from the mechanisms and full speed in combat, and not discussing the efficiency of crane manipulators with boilers of one type or another.
                1. +1
                  29 August 2026 13: 43
                  Your Excellency doesn't understand the first thing about the naval propulsion systems of that era. Arguing with you is disrespectful. Therefore, I use websites not to argue with technically illiterate people like Your Excellency, but to present facts that most people dismiss as unimportant.
                  1. 0
                    2 September 2026 11: 19
                    Quote: sergiogerasimo
                    Your Excellency doesn't have a clue about the naval power plants of those times.

                    Unsubstantiated argumentum ad hominem. Please provide some reasoning for this so-called "thesis" of yours, or simply don't bother me.
                    To argue with you is to disrespect yourself.

                    Well, don't argue, good citizen. Move on.
                    1. +3
                      2 September 2026 12: 31
                      I'm not arguing, I'm refuting the ignorant nonsense of the commentator who calls the 1/2-inch pressure in the boiler room of fire-tube boilers forced draft, although the same Golov calls such pressure "cooling", that is, simply a breeze for the comfortable work of the stokers with natural heating of the boilers.
                      1. 0
                        2 September 2026 13: 43
                        Quote: sergiogerasimo
                        I am not arguing, I am refuting the illiterate nonsense of the commentator who calls the pressure in the boiler room of fire tube boilers at 1/2 inch forced draft

                        All claims against the author of the article in the Kronstadt Herald No. 148 for 1893, who called the forced blast of 0,3-0,46 inches of water column a moderate formed blast.

                        So either turn off your refutation device, or quote a historical source that says that the 0,5 inches of water column created by the fan machine in the boiler rooms is "natural draft".

                        Those who wrote that the 0,5 inch water column of boost from fan-powered machines is "natural draft" have not yet been able to provide references to historical sources that claim something similar.

                        Maybe you'll succeed.

                        I'm waiting for quotes and links. laughing
                      2. +2
                        2 September 2026 15: 33
                        Well, yes, Alexandra doesn't understand analysis and logic, and it turns out the Kronstadt Herald and its opponents are to blame! They refuse to teach and enlighten Sashenka! And how can she be taught if she refuses to accept other people's arguments?
                      3. 0
                        2 September 2026 17: 37
                        Quote: sergiogerasimo
                        Well, yes, Alexandra doesn’t understand what analysis and logic are, and it turns out that the “Kronstadt Herald” and its opponents are to blame!

                        Mr. Sergey, your argumentation is weak. Demonstrate your analysis and your logic before claiming your interlocutor lacks it. wink
                        "Kronstadt Herald" and its opponents! They refuse to teach and enlighten Sasha!

                        Your mother raised you without a father? You argue like a woman.

                        P.S. Where are the links? Where are the quotes? Where are the numbers, analytical and logical Seryozha? Without them, you are completely uninteresting.
                      4. 0
                        2 September 2026 22: 02
                        Yes, please! Take, for example, how our "experts" convert units of boost pressure in the boiler room with forced blast from inches of water column to atmospheres. It's like one inch of water column equals 0,0245 atm. What they don't understand is that this value only applies to hydraulics. If we compare the data from the performance reports of the same battleship "Yashima," we'll find that her boost pressure with forced blast equals 1,5 atm, or 1,5 inches of water column. In other words, one inch of water column equals one atmosphere! Take the "Slava" battleship, for example: her full-speed boost pressure in the boiler room was 4 to 9 psi above atmospheric, or 0,27-0,61 atm, or 7-15,5 mm H2O. Compare that to 38 mm H2O in the stokehole of the "Fuji" and "Yashima." Or with 80 mm (3 atm in the boiler room) on the Askold during factory testing. What's it like to work under such pressure, with the monstrous roar of the blower fans, and the terrifying heat from the boilers, since the hot air exhaust hatches are also closed? How can you compare this hellish experience to Russian propulsion systems, with open hatches, fans running at low speed, and a pressure of half an inch of water column (0,5 atm) above atmospheric?
                      5. +2
                        2 September 2026 23: 31
                        Quote: sergiogerasimo
                        Yes, please! Let's take, for example, how our "experts" convert units of boost pressure in a boiler room with a boosted blast from inches of water column to atmospheres. One inch of water column equals 0,0245 atm.

                        In fact, one inch of water column is equal to 0,0024583 atmospheres. Here are some online calculators:

                        https://www.center-pss.ru/klk/k299.htm
                        https://unit-converter.org/UnitConverter/convert/?uc_class=1&uc_value=1&uc_unit=14&uc_cat=6&commit=Перевести

                        Everyone makes mistakes often. So, my translator made a mistake: he didn't convert inches of water column to atmospheres, but confused one with the other. He was wrong by a factor of ~406,8.
                        What they don’t understand is that this value only applies to hydraulics.

                        Why do you think so?
                        7-15,5 mm H2O. Compare this to 38 mm H2O in the stokehold of the Fuji and Yashima. Or to 80 mm H2O (3 atm in the stokehold) of the Askold during factory testing.

                        Different boiler types allowed for different boost pressures. Judging by the test results of the Royal Sovereign crane manipulator, which experienced tube leaks in two boilers at 1,6 inches of water column in the fourth hour of testing, 1,5 inches of water column was "borderline failure" for the Fuji and Yashima fire-tube boilers. For the Schulz-Thornycroft (Schulz-Afanasyev) boilers on the Askold, a pressure of 2 inches of water column was perfectly acceptable, as were 3 inches for the Norman boilers and 2-3 inches for the Yarrow boilers.

                        During the sea trials of the Askold, as far as I remember, the pressure was not increased above 2 inches.

                        And yes, following the translator of the text about "Yashima", you began to confuse inches of water column and atmosphere, writing "Or with 80 mm (3 atm in the boiler room) at "Askold".

                        There was no hell to be seen in the Askold boiler rooms.

                        https://viewer.rusneb.ru/ru/000200_000018_RU_NLR_BIBL_A_022678899?page=2&rotate=0&theme=white&inversion=off

                        "As for ventilation, the idea of ​​its perfection can be discerned from the fact that at full speed the temperature in the engine room was only +16 K, and in the stokehold +30 R."

                        PS 30 degrees Reaumur (°R) is equal to 37,5 degrees Celsius (°C).
                      6. -1
                        3 September 2026 07: 31
                        Well, I told you Sasha doesn't know a thing about ship steam engines. Now she's blaming the translator!
                      7. 0
                        4 September 2026 13: 17
                        Sergey, I see you've been demoted to junior sergeant. Why do you think that happened?

                        P.S. I didn't participate in your demotion. I know full well that only the grave can reform adults. I'm sure you're an adult and didn't write your comment before going to school. Am I right?
                      8. +2
                        2 September 2026 14: 21
                        Unprovable...
                        Your position and your opponent's objections are equally logical; a reliable document - a primary source - is truly needed here.
                        Well, do you agree that when you turn on the air conditioning in your car, it would be logical to roll up the windows?
                        On the other hand, on a hot day we turn on the fans without closing the windows)))
                      9. +1
                        2 September 2026 15: 26
                        A bright head, able to analyze.
                      10. 0
                        2 September 2026 23: 54
                        Thank you for your kind words, but what's the point of analyzing when the source information is contradictory.
                        Alexander's position looks more attractive due to the citation.
                        Does anyone know the ventilation performance so I can compare it with natural air flow?
                        It seems to be significantly superior to the latter. Then, in theory, at some cost, it would be possible to create excess pressure in the boiler room with the hatches open (with such a through-flow, the cooling effect would be much greater). But as D'Artagnan said to de Jussac: "Paper, sir, paper!"
                      11. +1
                        3 September 2026 08: 02
                        Topware already had an article with calculations for natural and boosted heating, but it's hard to find. This is precisely because the administrator posts old articles in a truncated form, diluted with the latest unsolicited news. The article provides formulas specifically for a marine U-shaped liquid pressure gauge, taking into account both the densities of atmospheric air and exhaust gases, as well as their temperatures. According to these formulas, the natural draft of a 30-meter-high chimney under normal conditions is approximately 20 mm H2O. And by the way, about "paper," that's from de Ward.
                      12. 0
                        2 September 2026 23: 51
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        Unprovable...

                        What exactly is unprovable? That a 0,5-inch water column boost could only be achieved with the stokehold hatches closed? According to R.M. Melnikov's book "The Battleship Emperor Paul I," this is precisely the case. Opening the stokehold hatches while the ventilation engines were running resulted in a "pressure-free" state in the stokehold compartments.
                        Your position and your opponent's objections are equally logical.

                        The position of my opponents (there are several) is completely unsupported. They have failed to cite a single historical source indicating that with the stokehold hatches open, an excess pressure of even 0,3 inches of water column could be achieved, or that when operating on natural draft in fire-tube boilers or Belleville water-tube boilers, more than 100 kg of coal could be burned in the furnaces per square meter of grate per hour.

                        As I have already demonstrated, the excess pressure in the closed stokeholds during full-power tests of the Emperor Paul I's engines was 0,5 inches of water column, and during these tests, an average of 124,38 kg of coal per 1 m² of grate per hour was burned in the battleship's boiler furnaces.

                        This was the forced mode of operation of the crane manipulator, forced by the fan-assisted pressurization of the battleship's sealed boiler rooms.

                        Those who try to claim the opposite only persist in their delusions.
                      13. +4
                        3 September 2026 00: 37
                        Your opponents don't have such a "strong quote" as a support, so it's not sporting to repeatedly beat them with Raphael.
                        Let's put the original source aside...
                        Let's reason calmly --
                        1. Could the fans provide combustion? Yes, they could.
                        2. Could the fans provide combustion at afterburner? Yes, they could.
                        3. Could the fans have provided the firebox and also created excess pressure in the boiler room with the hatches open? I don't know...
                        Or better yet, most likely not, because even a leaky bike tube is hard to inflate (but then the question arises of how big the hole is and what to inflate it with).
                        What do we know about fans, hatches and their operating modes?
                        As an amateur, I wash my hands of it)))
                      14. 0
                        4 September 2026 12: 28
                        It is known that the RIF adopted a maximum fan boost pressure of 0,5 inches of water column for Belleville boilers. The 1896 Belleville boilers used on domestic ships used two booster options: boosting the closed stokeholds or boosting the boiler furnace ash pits directly.

                        This boost increased the amount of coal burned by about a quarter, from ~100-104 kg per square meter of grate per hour, to ~125-128 kg.

                        All the objections of my opponents can be reduced to: "This is not forcing at all! This is natural draft! In the British navy, yes, there is forcing!"
                      15. +1
                        4 September 2026 13: 38
                        Sashenka stubbornly refuses to read D. Golov's 1904 "Manual for the Operation and Maintenance of Belleville Boilers" before displaying her ignorance. It's freely available. This manual has one drawback: it's a service manual; it excludes commissioning modes like the English "full power" ones, which abuse the boiler system for the sake of speeding bonuses.
                      16. 0
                        4 September 2026 14: 08
                        Sergey, you are sharing your argumentum ad hominem in an offended manner, which is of no interest to anyone.

                        This way you can regain your rank of senior sergeant for a long time.

                        If you want to share some interesting information or sources of such with those present, then it is done approximately like this:

                        "Bulletin of the Society of Marine Engineers" Issue I, 1898 (click the "Read" button)

                        https://lib.polytech.one/magazines/832

                        M. Shebalin's article "On Belleville boilers from the point of view of a naval engineer" begins on page 61 of the "Bulletin".

                        And your wounded pride, which has obviously been suffering for a long time, since something forced you to register on topwar in August under a new account - is of no interest to anyone.

                        Do you want to be pitied? Okay, you were pitied.

                        Now try to add more constructiveness to your remarks and people will be drawn to you.
                      17. +3
                        4 September 2026 16: 51
                        Sashenka makes an offended defense, suggesting instead of the official Belleville boiler manual, Golova read the free-wheeling musings of Shebalin, whose "pi" for people like Sashenka is four. But he categorically refuses to read the manual, as it refutes all his speculations!
                      18. -1
                        4 September 2026 19: 35
                        Serezhenka, please cite something relevant from D. Golova's aforementioned guide. I'd like to understand what you read there and what you understood from it.
                      19. -1
                        4 September 2026 21: 20
                        Wow, Sasha can't even read himself! And instead of a Bible, he has a quotation book, just like the Jehovah's Witnesses. He's just spouting quotes!
                      20. -1
                        4 September 2026 22: 18
                        You don't know how to read. A page a day, probably, no more? It happens. That's why you don't know what citation looks like. I'll illustrate it now. Maybe you'll learn. So, the citation is in the attached file:
                      21. +4
                        5 September 2026 09: 25
                        Well, there you go again, using the trimmings to your advantage! In reality, it looks like this:
                      22. +1
                        5 September 2026 11: 05
                        Mr. Sergey Gerasimov, I didn't drink to brotherhood with you, so don't bother pointing that out. So, you've read and learned a few things today. About "normal progress."

                        In particular, the "normal" coal consumption during normal operation was up to 23 pounds per square foot of grate per hour (up to 101,3 kg per square meter of grate per hour).

                        However, tests to achieve full contract speed were conducted during the Belleville pocket formation. Since you didn't highlight this, it seems you didn't read all the way to the description of the pocket formation.

                        The transition from normal operation of the boilers under natural draft to enhanced operation under forced draft was carried out as follows:

                        1. The Belleville compressors were accelerated to obtain a pressure of 14 feet in the nozzles of the overhead supercharging mixers;

                        2. The blower fans were started to work at full power, initially leaving the hatches open for warm air to escape, but closing the boiler room doors;

                        3. They gradually closed the hatches ("doors") to allow warm air to escape, thereby achieving the necessary excess pressure in the boiler rooms.

                        An excess pressure of 3/16 to 3/8 (0,3125 to 0,375) inches of water column was sufficient to burn 25 to 27 pounds of coal per square foot of grate per hour (110 to 119 kg per square meter of grate per hour).

                        An excess pressure of 6/16 to 13/16 (0,375 to 0,8125) inches of water column was sufficient to burn 27 to 34 pounds of coal per square foot of grate per hour (119 to 149,9 kg per square meter of grate per hour).

                        To burn 38 pounds of coal per square foot of grate per hour (167,5 kg per square meter of grate per hour) required an excess pressure of 1,33 inches (1 and 1/3 inches) of water.

                        However, the MTC prohibited forcing the furnaces to a pressure in the stokeholds exceeding 1/2 (0,5) inch of water column. This allowed, even during sea trials at full speed, the ships to burn no more than 124-127 kg of coal per square meter of grate per hour.

                        In fact, by decision of the MTC, all the possibilities for forcing the Belleville boilers in the Russian Imperial Navy in 1904 were not used, although they were described in the "Guide" on boilers compiled (I don’t know, translated from French) by mechanical engineer D. Golov.

                        Later, these capabilities began to be used more actively (though not always). During sea trials at full speed, the "Evstafiy" burned 145 kg of coal per square meter of grate per hour. But that was later, after the Russo-Japanese War.

                        During the war, the Russian Imperial Navy didn't take full advantage of the opportunities to boost Belleville boilers by pressurizing the stokeholds due to the restrictions imposed by the MTC. Unlike the enemy, apparently, who didn't have their own conservative MTC staffed by respectable elderly gentlemen with full beards.

                        So what was I "putting forward in my favor" there?

                        P.S. Statement from the respected Yuri that:

                        "Half an inch was produced naturally by running the fans at full power with the stokehold hatches open.

                        Artificial blowing was considered to be pressurization with the stokehold hatches closed and the pressure greater than half an inch of water column."


                        The "Manual" compiled by D. Golov refutes this more than completely.

                        Nothing could be achieved "naturally." Even to achieve an excess pressure of 3/16 of an inch of water column, which would have allowed the burning of not 101 kg but 110 kg of coal per square meter of grate per hour, required running the compressors and fans at full power, closing the doors, and at least partially closing the stokehold hatches. In the Russian navy, such excess pressure was no longer considered natural draft.

                        And with natural draft, burning a maximum of 23 pounds per square foot of grate per hour (~101 kg of coal per square meter of grate per hour), no more.
                      23. +1
                        5 September 2026 11: 19
                        Go ahead, keep juggling numbers! You can't multiply two by two and get five anyway! All technical manuals are written in such a way as to prevent misinterpretation, otherwise, as in your case, the technical device will fail.
                      24. 0
                        5 September 2026 12: 45
                        Quote: sergiogerasimo
                        Well, well, keep juggling numbers!

                        Thank you for allowing me to continue using numbers, Sergey. Girls, as we all know, aren't very good with numbers. Neither are boys raised by women. I didn't see a single point involving numbers from you either. That's why I concluded you grew up without a father. Thanks again for participating in the discussion!
                      25. +3
                        4 September 2026 14: 47
                        How can one judge without quoting instructions?
                        To read them correctly (God is in the details), it is not enough to be a professional in this field; one must also be a contemporary of the era and personally take part in the trials...
                        It could be like this:
                        The decision to limit excess pressure to a certain value can probably be explained by caution. Caution, in turn, is explained by mistrust. And mistrust is inherently less reliable.
                        Then the conclusion is: everyone forced the quality of their boilers to the extent possible.
                        Based on this logic, you are right - ours also forced the issue, but to a much lesser extent.
                      26. -2
                        4 September 2026 15: 31
                        The banal views of the MTC on the permissible value of the pressure forcing boilers with a booster charge of 0,5 inches of water column led to the fact that in Russia, overweight crane manoeuvres were designed for ships, with a much larger number of boilers, a larger total area of ​​​​the grates and a larger total heating surface than their British and, accordingly, Japanese classmates.

                        And if you have a crane manipulator with a design capacity of 14,500 horsepower, which ends up with 30 Belleville boilers and a mass of almost 2,000 tons, like on the domestic Peresvets, while the British Formideblas have a crane manipulator with a design capacity of 15,000 horsepower, 20 Belleville boilers and a mass of 1550 tons, then you inevitably end up with a ship that is underarmed and underarmored, compared to the British one.

                        It would be fine if this resulted in superior performance in real-world conditions. But no, the Russian ships' crane manoeuvres, conservatively designed for combat acceleration, did not provide any performance advantage to the Russian ships over their Japanese counterparts during the Russo-Japanese War.

                        Let's not talk about the Novik. It wasn't the Bellevilles, the beloved MTKs. And it was the Novik's heavy missile system, which collapsed after the battle in the Yellow Sea, that ultimately led to the Novik's fatal engagement with the cruiser Tsushima.
                      27. +1
                        4 September 2026 17: 03
                        A typical Russophobe's view of Russian shipbuilding! Like stupid Russian engineers, afraid for their own asses, over-engineered the propulsion system. But the smart English didn't do that! Except, in fact, it was just the opposite. The smart Russians designed the propulsion system based on the actual conditions of the ship's service life, while British shipbuilders, until 1906, installed lightweight propulsion systems that they mercilessly overboosted during sea trials, so the ships they built never reached the speeds they demonstrated in service. Sashenka should have read the British Admiralty resolutions on this matter from 1898, 1901, and 1906, as well as the numerous inquiries and speeches in Parliament. But he doesn't like reading; he has a different goal: to prove that everything Russian is worthless!
                      28. +1
                        4 September 2026 18: 29
                        Khe khe ...
                        Something doesn't add up - my colleague Alexander is right here on another branch of this same thread fighting against my Western worship and has already shaken my eyebrows pretty badly (but unlike you, he does it more competently and tactfully - I have to defend myself and retreat)))
                      29. 0
                        4 September 2026 20: 47
                        Sergei is the kind of patriot who is surrounded by enemies who bow to foreigners. Patriots of this type don't understand that there can be an objective technical view of both our military defeats and our military victories (and naval warfare is a very "technical sport"). Sergei, I'm sure, blamed internal enemies for our defeat in the Russo-Japanese War. But not in the MTC. True patriots sat in the MTC. That's why the technology was brilliant! The best in the world! Better than the British and Japanese! wink
                      30. +1
                        4 September 2026 21: 20
                        ROAR...
                        In this and other cases (from Crimea to Crimea) technical backwardness is, as it were, secondary...
                        It has always been and remains, but not to the extent that it was like at Tsushima...
                        Here we see a subtle calculation of timing - if the undisputed leader in the yellow jersey also takes off first, then by chasing him we will have time to invest resources, but will be late in terms of results - these devils choose the moment - they put us under time pressure (even having built ships, we do not have time to master them and drive them halfway around the world).
                        It's possible that the practice of saving on the VI was caused not so much by a lack of money, but by a lack of time - if we had ordered the "Borodinets" in 15ktn, the deadline would have been extended by another year (although, in truth, thanks to hindsight, it's better this way)...
                        So it turns out that we should have either attacked ourselves at the turn of the century, or hid the whole gang in the Baltic until 1906... Or, as an option, we should have redrawn the shipbuilding programs, but then we would have to start in advance (and the enemy, in turn, in response to the change in our plans, will make adjustments to their preparations).
                        It's nonsense anyway - imagine two chess players, one has twice as many pieces, and the other moves twice in a row.
                      31. +1
                        4 September 2026 22: 12
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        In this and other cases (from Crimea to Crimea) technical backwardness is, as it were, secondary...
                        It has always been and remains, but not to the extent that it was like at Tsushima...

                        The failure to win a single naval artillery battle during the entire Russo-Japanese War was only possible due to the glaring technical backwardness of naval artillery. And that's exactly what happened.

                        The Russo-Japanese War is a blatant example of self-inflicted technological backwardness, multiplied by stupid "savings" - on shells, on sights, on basic rangefinders, on fuses, on the development of high explosive mixtures, on artillery firing, etc.

                        Perm factories announced their readiness to begin production of 12-inch forged steel projectiles with a bursting charge of 7,75% of the total weight (25,7 kg) made from high-quality steel with an elastic limit of 3,800 atmospheres. However, the price of 265 rubles for such a projectile turned out to be too high.

                        A less technologically advanced, cast, thick-walled 12-inch shell made of open-hearth steel with an elastic limit of 2,700 atmospheres, containing a bursting charge of no more than 3,8% of the total weight (12,5 kg), was priced at 100 rubles by the same Perm factories. This was adopted into service in 1894.


                        Spending over half a billion gold rubles over 20 years on warship construction alone, while "saving" on 12-inch high-explosive shells at 165 rubles each (for 4000 such shells, that's 660 rubles) and losing—that was incredibly stupid.
                      32. +3
                        5 September 2026 11: 44
                        The Borodino-class battleships were designed with the understanding that their normal-displacement draft would allow them to navigate to the Far East via the limited-depth Suez Canal. In the British Navy in 1903, only the Centurions, Renowns, and Canopuses could navigate this canal without being unloaded. The Japanese battleships sailed from England to Japan at nearly standard displacement, with a steamship aft carrying all their supplies, ammunition, almost all their guns, and spare parts. But "thanks" to Rozhestvensky, who oversaw the construction and supply of the Borodino-class battleships, they were unable to navigate the Suez Canal due to artificial overload. Add to this the hysteria at Dogger Bank, orchestrated by Rozhestvensky himself, and what kind of arrival at Port Arthur in January could there have been? Only the Japanese benefited from Rozhdestvensky's actions. For example, the Mikasa received its fourth 12-inch gun from repairs only on May 3, 1905. And in January, two Japanese battleships and four armored cruisers were still undergoing major repairs. For example, on the Yakumo, they were replacing the boilers burned out during the summer and the damaged propeller shaft, while the Asama's ripped belly was never fully repaired.
                      33. +1
                        5 September 2026 23: 12
                        "Borodino residents"?
                        It's fun!
                        Especially their construction overload.
                        Like "what to do" and "who is to blame"?
                        A young specialist, practically a teenager, who had truly distinguished himself during the war, miraculously survived, and, having suffered in captivity, ended up on a high platform...
                        From there he told the commission that the shipbuilders had nothing to do with it...
                        And who will say a word to him?
                        Kostenko got his corporation (and the "customers" along with the "contractor") off the hook by shifting the blame to Rozhdestvensky.
                        Everyone nodded in unison, everyone was happy with everything—personifying blame is a good old two-step scapegoat. I honestly don't feel sorry for Rozhdestvensky—he really screwed up, and he was lucky to have been wounded early in the battle.
                        But as for “what to do,” there are three possible answers.
                        1. Three ships perished - their ends in the water(
                        2. The Japanese have trimmed down their trophy quite considerably - instead of six SC turrets with a total weight (with magazines and reinforcements) of 1200 tons, they installed six 8" deck turrets - a weight of about 0,5 kilotons. They removed another 100 tons of coal from the already very modest supply and replaced the boilers (I don’t know how much the Miya Bara weighs, but everyone and everywhere criticizes the Belleville as the heaviest)...
                        It's not good to round off roughly, but I think one kiloton is about right.
                        3. We were left with the unfinished EBR "Slava" - they finished it in no hurry, they didn't stuff it with tropical junk, the crooked conductors and boatswains didn't hide three hundred tons of contraband in the cracks... And-and-and?
                        Hello - 900 tons of construction overload...
                        Everything?
                        No, not all of them - once things calmed down, they started to decide what to do with it - a commission was assembled under the leadership of Admiral Parenago... They weighed, measured, counted and issued an order to remove 1300 tons.
                        Where would he go in Suez?
                        Do you think four sister ships were better?
                        Although, according to Kostenko, they could have, if you subtract the overload he mentioned from the normal coal reserve, then everything is in order!
                        Shpak has a tape recorder, the ambassador has a medallion (they lightened Iwate by about 1 kiloton, Slava by either 0,9 or 1,3 kiloton) – I am tormented by vague doubts.
                      34. 0
                        5 September 2026 23: 42
                        Oh!
                        Of course "Iwami")))
                      35. -2
                        6 September 2026 08: 03
                        Yes, people are becoming dumb before our eyes from baseless malice! Kostenko defended the squadron officers and Rozhestvensky at the trial, telling tales of how the shipbuilders had built four worthless battleships with a 2000-ton overload. However, the lead ship, the "Alexander III," under construction in 1903, wasn't particularly overloaded. The whole thing started later, when Rozhestvensky, Chief of the St. Petersburg Port and responsible for the construction of all ships at the St. Petersburg shipyards, resolutely accepted proposals from all sorts of idiots aimed at "improving" the new battleships. He continued to do the same thing later, now as commander of the Second Pacific Squadron. As a result, not only were the battleships overloaded, but their commissioning was also delayed by modifications. Rozhestvensky, in his hysterical, tyrant manner, refused to listen to anyone! That same Birilev, reviled by all historians, proposed loading all the additional cargo, mine launches and longboats, food and supplies, water, and other supplies onto the transports accompanying the squadron, as the British and Japanese had done, but Rozhestvensky was unconvinced. Apparently, his Stockholm branch of the London Masonic Lodge had him in hot water. The navy was full of such Masons. That's why the ships' hulls somehow became deformed when docked, why the ships would run aground on all the sandbanks marked on the charts while en route to Kronstadt, or why they sank, like the "Oryol," because "someone" had "stolen" the wooden plugs from the armor holes! Particularly noteworthy is the story of the 12-d shells for the Second Pacific War, for which Brink himself was responsible for loading. After examining the unexploded shells from the Sveaborg bombardment, the commission determined that the cause was the fuses, in which dry pyroxylin had been "someone" moistened with seawater, causing the aluminum strikers to corrode and swell. And then everyone wonders: why didn't the Russian shells explode at Tsushima? They didn't explode because London ordered it that way.
                      36. +2
                        6 September 2026 10: 49
                        So I don’t justify Rozhdestvensky...
                        I just don't remember who said it --
                        Like, there's no need to attribute malicious intent where everything can be explained by stupidity and carelessness.
                        There is nothing fundamentally criminal in the case of the Borodinets - a kiloton of construction overload was a common sight, and even worse - it is difficult to find a Russian nuclear-powered ballistic missile with an overload of less than a kiloton...
                        In my comment, I objected to your suggestion about the shortcut through Suez. I believe it was impossible, as the Borodino-class ships simply couldn't get through...
                        And Kostenko is a truly intelligent and courageous person, an excellent professional, and the very suspicious data of his report are completely justified by the goal of preserving the domestic school of shipbuilding (whatever it is – in a backward, but catching up with Europe, Russia)
                      37. -2
                        6 September 2026 12: 15
                        Don't believe the Russophobes' fairy tales, repeating their lies. There were no ships in the Russian Navy with a construction overload of a thousand tons—not a single one! Even the "Sisoy Velikiy" didn't have such an overload, nor did the "Oslyabya" and "Peresvet." The "Sisoy"'s 8800-ton displacement wasn't a design feature, but a sketch. If you look at all the photos of the "Sisoy" in service, you'll see the edge of the main armor belt above the waterline on all of them, and the tips of the waste disposal arms are also visible above the waterline, below the upper edge. Therefore, the "Sisoy" never had a construction overload of 1900 tons!
                      38. +2
                        6 September 2026 22: 42
                        Nice)
                        Judging by the photo, the ship really is in good order...
                        But ...
                        It's all complicated...
                        First of all, it's not 1900 tons, but "only" 1520)))
                        Secondly, the project itself is cool - the belt is kind of raised up - only 122 cm below the VL... but 96 cm from above (according to the project) ...
                        And minus the overload of one and a half kilotons, it will not be completely submerged - in any case, there will still be about ten centimeters left...
                        Thirdly, it is impossible to determine the load from the photo - if you throw out the normal reserve, then in total the upper edge will rise above the water by almost half a meter.
                        Your idea has a right to exist, but a photo is not exhaustive evidence.
                      39. -1
                        6 September 2026 23: 49
                        Polenov didn't provide all the information about the Sisoy in his monograph, so you don't know everything about this battleship. The Sisoy was designed as a Baltic battleship, capable of operating in the Finnish and Swedish skerries, so her draft was initially limited to 6,71 meters. The height of her armor belt, which you disliked, was due to the fact that this battleship's primary area of ​​operation was, after all, the Baltic Sea and, if necessary, the world's oceans. Therefore, the Sisoy had two design displacements: one for operations in the skerries and shallow waters (8880 tons), and the other, larger, for regular service (9790 tons). It is this second displacement, with the belt rising 30,5 cm above the waterline, that accounts for the overload. You can calculate this yourself by taking the Sisoy's known full displacement of 10400 tons and subtracting the difference between its full (975 tons) and normal (550 tons) coal reserves, which is 425 tons. The result is 9975 tons, which is quite consistent with the 10000 tons quoted by Chief Engineer Paromensky. This yields a construction overload of only 185 tons, which, if we factor in the approximately 100 tons of boiler water assumed at full displacement, is even less. In other words, by simply conducting a simple analysis, which our so-called "Masters" of naval history are so reluctant to employ, we arrive at true, not fabricated, figures, and ones that perfectly correspond to the geometric dimensions of not just one, but many photographs of the Sisoy from various years.
                      40. +2
                        7 September 2026 01: 07
                        Your position seems logical, which makes me even more wary.
                        There is something of the historian Fomenko in this - everything is upside down, but in the end it comes together.
                        Well... The idea is beautiful, original - if it's yours, then I take my hat off to you, because it's interesting and fresh).
                        Go for it. After all, what difference does it make what they screwed up a century and a half ago? We should sort things out with our contemporaries before they give us another Tsushima.
                      41. 0
                        7 September 2026 09: 45
                        You're funny. You pretend to be a maritime history buff, but in reality...
                      42. +1
                        7 September 2026 12: 48
                        It's funny because it's scary to trace the analogies - the spiral of the arms race has taken another turn, just like on the eve of the Russian Nuclear Forces.
                        And our problems are similar to those that existed in the Russian Empire at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries.
                        .
                      43. -1
                        7 September 2026 13: 08
                        You're right. More than right. The Spiral has once again elevated to power all that... that our great-grandfathers and grandfathers painstakingly cleansed Russia of.
                      44. +1
                        8 September 2026 09: 15
                        The problem there wasn't aluminum corrosion, but its softness. This has been discussed here many times.
                        Andrey has a very interesting article about the 11DM and Brinka two-cap fuses.
                        There is a quote from "An Essay on the History of Tubes and Detonators" by Rdultovsky.
                        Everything has been chewed over long ago.
                      45. -4
                        8 September 2026 13: 18
                        The problem with the shells assembled in Sveaborg was precisely the corrosion of the firing pins. And any idiot can reprint Rdultovsky's writings as their own. Actually, no one idiot could. He wrote that the 12-inch shells of the Second Pacific War failed to explode due to an over-wetted pyroxylin explosive charge and the soft firing pins of a two-stroke fuse. Unfortunately for him, wet pyroxylin cannot be over-wetted, especially in the 12-inch shells of the Second Pacific War, since 12-inch shells for it were loaded with rifle powder and single-stroke fuses of the 1884 model. Nevertheless, the Japanese were surprised to find two-stroke fuses with seawater-soaked pyroxylin on 12-inch dud shells recovered from their ships, even though the pyroxylin should have been dry. Isn't that proof of a conspiracy theory?
                      46. -3
                        7 September 2026 23: 28
                        You're lying and distorting again. There's no objectivity in any of your comments, just endless repetition of the mantra: "Everything Russian is bad, the designers are idiots, the builders are incompetent, everything is overloaded," and so on. But you praise everything English like a true Anglo-Saxon patriot!
                      47. +2
                        8 September 2026 00: 29
                        Seryozha, I am providing those interested with the correct information.

                        And you, as expected, got everything mixed up.

                        The Belleville company, headquartered in Saint-Denis, whose manuals and instructions were used by Dmitry Andreevich Golov, senior clerk of the Marine Technical Committee, to compile the "Manual for the Operation and Maintenance of Belleville Boilers" (and where royalties for every Belleville boiler manufactured in Russia were sent) was FRENCH. Remember, FRENCH.

                        The British, however, fared poorly with their Belleville boilers, both due to the quality of their production in Great Britain and a number of flaws in their unskilled operation. As a result, the British abandoned the installation of Belleville boilers on new warship designs in 1901.

                        They could afford it. After all, by 1901 they had their own Yarrow water-tube boilers, as well as water-tube boilers from the American company Babcock & Wilcox. Both were more advanced than the Belleville boilers, with better specific parameters and allowing for a greater degree of boost.

                        But the Naval Technical Committee, so stubbornly clinging to Belleville boilers that they nearly made it onto the Sevastopol-class dreadnoughts (though in a form already improved by Viktor Yakovlevich Dolgolenko), not only did it NOT advocate for any domestic company to develop domestic water-tube boilers with a high degree of boost, but it also explicitly prohibited the boosting of Belleville boilers on domestic ships to the extent permitted by the Belleville company's own manuals and instructions.

                        As a result, domestic military ships received much heavier and larger cranes with Belleville boilers, calculated per indicated horsepower of contract power, than warships of foreign navies with the same Belleville water-tube boilers, manufactured under license from a French company.

                        The technical backwardness of domestic ship boiler-machine installations, as a consequence of warships in general, compared to foreign warships, was thus predetermined by a directive decision of the Marine Technical Committee, adopted back in the 1890s, apparently for reasons of "just in case," prohibiting significant (over 0,5 inches of water column boost) forcing of Belleville boilers even during sea trials of domestic ships.

                        The decision remained in effect until the Belleville boilers ceased to be used in the domestic navy.

                        I'd like to clarify: are you, Seryozha, a fan of "The Russia We Lost," the loser of the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905? Are you a patriot of Schubert waltzes and the crunch of French bread? My sympathies.
                      48. -2
                        8 September 2026 13: 00
                        Another set of truisms and a tame attempt at irony! Go study, ignoramus.
                      49. 0
                        9 September 2026 10: 38
                        Your case is typical, Sergey. Adults who haven't received a fatherly upbringing continue to behave like spoiled brats: taking advantage of online anonymity to address strangers informally, tease, and bully.

                        If you find any relevant information, such as a link to the electronic version of the first edition of Dmitry Andreevich Golov's "Guide" to Belleville boilers, please let me know.
                      50. 0
                        4 September 2026 20: 27
                        Quote: sergiogerasimo
                        A typical Russophobe's view of domestic shipbuilding! Like stupid Russian engineers, afraid for their own asses, made the propulsion system overweight. But the smart British didn't do that! Except, in fact, it was just the opposite.

                        Seryozha, how many kilograms of coal were burned per square meter of grate per hour during the battleship Emperor Paul I's sea trials in 1910? Don't know? I'll tell you: 124,38 kg.

                        How many kilograms of coal were burned per square meter of grate per hour during the cruiser Bayan's sea trials in 1902? Those were the same ones where they never achieved the contract speed of 21 knots (they only managed 20,97). Don't know? I'll tell you. Up to 127 kg of coal.

                        Do you know what excess pressure in the boiler rooms with Belleville boilers was necessary to burn 150 kg of coal per square meter of grate per hour?

                        You've read "Manual for the Operation and Maintenance of Belleville Boilers" compiled by D. Golov, 1904, haven't you? It's written there.

                        Or did you not read and should I give you a hint?
                        Sashenka should have read the British Admiralty resolutions on this matter from 1898, 1901, and 1906, as well as numerous inquiries and speeches in Parliament. But he doesn't like to read.

                        I look forward to your reply. Let's find out what kind of reader you are. laughing
                      51. +1
                        4 September 2026 21: 17
                        Well, yes, Sasha knows everything! And that water is wet, and that winter can be cold! But in reality, besides chatter, she knows nothing!
                      52. 0
                        4 September 2026 21: 50
                        I see. "Manual for the operation and maintenance of Belleville boilers" compiled by D. Golov, 1904. You haven't read it.

                        Well, Sergey, in order to burn 150 kg of coal per square meter of grate per hour according to D. Golova's "Manual", an excess pressure of 13/16 inches (0,81 inches) of water column was required in the stokers.

                        As you hope to remember, the MTC officials did not allow the pressure to rise above 0,5 inches.

                        So yes, Sergei, there were enemies, of course. Respectable-looking ones, often in admiral's uniforms, with long beards.

                        The Naval Technical Committee met. They weren't particularly interested in high-explosive shells, optical artillery sights, and basic rangefinders, nor were they interested in the fuses developed for coastal artillery by P. O. von Gelfreich, a member of the Main Artillery Artillery Committee—another department.

                        But they didn't allow the boilers on Russian ships to be fired up significantly. Only moderately. Moderation was generally a conservative approach.

                        But you understand, Sergei, they didn't do this out of malice, but out of thoughtlessness. And if it's out of thoughtlessness, then it's as if they're no longer enemies? Right? A fool is a man of God. And a man of God in our God-saved homeland cannot be an enemy.

                        Especially since ships are for naval parades and imperial reviews, not for combat. War is dangerous and expensive. The truth is, the respectable ones didn't want to fight anyone. It's sinful to fight. Even with "yellow-faced apes."
                      53. +2
                        5 September 2026 09: 46
                        Are you distorting the facts again? You're a cheat, my friend! The MTK prohibited the use of boiler boost only during sea trials, "so as not to render the boiler system unusable for the sake of a single effect." But even when boosting boilers, the service did not recommend increasing the pressure in the stokeholes above 1 1/8 dm (28,6 mm H2O). The English term "full power" was defined as a pressure in the stokeholes of 1,5 dm (38,1 mm H2O) and higher. So, I see your actions as not just "ignorance," but a clear attempt to deceive site users.
                      54. 0
                        5 September 2026 11: 30
                        Quote: sergiogerasimo
                        Are you exaggerating again? You're a cheat, sir! The MTK only allowed boiler boost during sea trials.

                        Yes, yes, and those modes that weren't even tested during sea trials at the maximum "contract" speed in the Russian Navy were, of course, used in combat. After all, as we know, in combat conditions, "the sine value reaches four."

                        There is no need to take the naval engineers and mechanics of that time for fools, who were ready in combat to force the crane control system into modes that had not even been tested.

                        Or are you ready to cite a description of a couple of combat episodes where this was done on Russian ships during the Russo-Japanese War, raising the pressure in their stokeholds to over 1/2 inch of water column? We're talking, of course, about ships with Belleville boilers.
                        The English "full power" began at a pressure in the stokeholds of 1,5 dm (38,1 mm) of water column and higher.

                        Sergei Gerasimov, unpatriotically servile to the terminology then in use in the Royal Navy, already considered a 3/8-inch boost pressure in the stokeholds to be forced draft, not "natural draft," in the Russian navy. This allowed for a mere 10% more coal to be burned per square meter of grate than with natural draft. And tests for maximum "contract" speed were conducted at a boost pressure of no more than 0,5 inches, allowing for a maximum of 124-127 kg of coal to be burned per square meter of grate per hour. However, Belleville boilers clearly could withstand the combustion of 145-150 kg of coal per square meter of grate per hour at an excess boost pressure of approximately 0,81-0,82 inches of water column (which, incidentally, is noted in technical encyclopedias).
                        So, in your actions, I specifically see not just "foolish thinking," but a clear attempt to deceive the site's users.

                        Yes, yes, and the Russian Imperial Navy also won a brilliant victory in the naval war of 1904-1905. I am clearly trying to deceive the knowledgeable readers of this site by claiming that the Russian Imperial Navy was defeated, and by describing the individual technical reasons why the fleet was defeated in the war of 1904-1905.
                      55. -3
                        5 September 2026 11: 54
                        Well, yes, the Russian fleet suffered a defeat, precisely because of the sabotage of Anglophiles and Freemasons in its ranks, like you.
          2. +1
            29 August 2026 00: 23
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Answered above. You can call it whatever you want,

            It should be called what its contemporaries called it. 1/2 inch of water column is "moderately forced draft." Firetube boiler tubes of the early 1890s would begin to leak within hours at forced drafts of ~1.5-2 inches of water column. One inch of forced draft was considered quite safe. In Britain. Not by the domestic MTK.
            The fact is that during the tests of the Rurik and the same Asama, different boiler operating modes were used.

            The fact is that the Royal Sovereign-class battleships went from a designed power of 9000 horsepower at natural draft to a forced power of 11,000 horsepower at varying excess boost pressure in the stokeholds, from 1/3 inch on the Ramillies to 1 inch on the Empress of India and Royal Oak.

            I don't know what happened during the Asam's sea trials. It's unlikely that the boost pressure exceeded 1-1,2 inches. In the UK, back on the Royal Sovereign, they figured out that with boost pressures of 1,5-1,6 inches, the tubes start leaking within a matter of hours. A pressure of 1 inch was deemed safe.

            https://forum.korabli.su/topic/6851-эскадренные-броненосцы-типа-royal-sovereign/

            "With an average draft of 8,4 meters, the lead ship of the series reached 18 knots at 13360 horsepower, becoming the first battleship to break this speed barrier. The pressure in the stokeholds was 1,5 inches, and everything went well for the first three hours, but during the last hour of testing, pipes in two boilers leaked, leading to a significant loss of power. Therefore, to calculate the average full-speed run data, the data from the first three hours of testing were used.

            At that time, when a ship was handed over to the contractor during a four-hour test run under forced draft, an excess pressure of 2 inches was allowed, which led to colossal overloads on the boilers due to the uneven expansion of their tubes and other components. This led to endless problems that could arise at any moment—both during the test itself and later, when fatal stress accumulated as fatigue in the tubes and sooner or later manifested itself... A pressure of 1 inch came to be considered the maximum pressure."
            And yes, I think that the case of the Rurik test you described is precisely the natural draft, i.e., that half an inch was considered the boundary that cuts off natural draft from artificial draft.

            What do you think? What historical source will you cite? I can cite the Kronstadt Herald, No. 148, from 1893, where 1/3-1 inch of water column was called "moderate forced draft."

            What historical source can you cite in your opinion that 1/2 inch of fan blower in stokeholds is "natural draft"?
            1. +4
              29 August 2026 09: 07
              Quote: AlexanderA
              I can refer to the Kronstadt Herald, No. 148, 1893, where 1/3-1 inch of water column was called “moderate forced draft.”

              That's entirely possible. Unfortunately, whatever the mode in which Russian ships were tested, they could operate at it for 6 or 12 hours. Can you cite sources that say, for example, Izumo or Iwate operated at afterburner for 6-12 hours during trials? No?
              That's exactly it. And stop lying to people about Paul I.
              1. -1
                2 September 2026 12: 11
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                That's entirely possible. Unfortunately, whatever the mode in which Russian ships were tested, they could operate at it for 6 or 12 hours. Can you cite sources that say, for example, Izumo or Iwate operated at afterburner for 6-12 hours during trials? No?

                Arrogant demonstrated full speed during the 8-hour trials.

                https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1897/october/professional-notes

                "The second-class cruiser Arrogant, during eight hours of full-power trials, averaged 19,6 knots with a total indicated horsepower of 10,290. During 30-hour trials at 2000 horsepower, the speed was 12,5 knots, and at 7624 horsepower, 17,8 knots."

                I'll see what kind of sea trials the manufacturer agreed upon with the Japanese for Izumo or Iwate.

                But you won’t object to the fact that for the British fleet ships with Belleville boilers, 8-hour sea trials at full speed took place in 1897?

                10,290/18 = 571,7 horsepower from one Belleville boiler. As you understand, not without forced draft.

                If 571,7 hp were "taken" from a single Belleville boiler on the same "Diana", then the maximum power of the cruiser's crane would be 13,720 hp and the cruiser would demonstrate 19,7-20 knots during sea trials.
                And stop lying to people about Paul I.

                What did you think I "lied to the people" about the Emperor Paul I's trials? That during those trials, with the ventilation engines running and the boiler room hatches open, there was a "no pressure in the boiler rooms" situation?

                Maybe it wasn't me who was lying, but the respected Yuri, who wrote that: "Half an inch was obtained naturally when the fans were running at full power with the boiler room hatches open"?

                As for the fact that forced injection of ~1/2 inch of water column increased the power of a well-made crane manipulator by 20-25%, you should be accusing me of lying, not of lying, but of Alexander Anatolyevich Belov, the author of the book "Cruisers of the Matsushima type. 1888-1926", as well as of the author of the article about the trials of the battleships of the Royal Sovereign type in the "Kronstadt Herald" No. 148 of December 19, 1893.

                Surely you wouldn't object that the intensification of coal combustion on the grates of the boiler furnaces at the specified excess pressure in the stokeholds did not depend on whether these were fire-tube boilers or Belleville water-tube boilers?
                1. +6
                  2 September 2026 16: 09
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  Arrogant demonstrated full speed during the 8-hour trials.

                  Yeah. You won't believe it, but Nissin and Kasuga also went on six-hour trials. At full speed. And they achieved 18,74 and 18.46 knots, respectively.
                  And they showed their 20,05-20,15 with afterburner on during 1,5 hour tests.
                  Attention, question. What do you mean by this phrase?
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Can you provide sources according to which the same Izumo or Iwate went afterburner 6-12 hours during testing? No?

                  Unclear? Where in your footnote is the instruction about afterburner?
                  1. -3
                    2 September 2026 18: 18
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Yeah. You won't believe it, but Nissin and Kasuga also went on six-hour trials. At full speed. And they achieved 18,74 and 18.46 knots, respectively.

                    Dear Andrey, just write down how much coal was burned per meter of grate per hour during these tests. After all, in the Russian Imperial Navy, it was believed that under natural draft, no more than 100 kg of coal per meter of grate per hour could be burned. But let's say 125 kg of coal per meter of grate per hour, only "if forced draft is allowed."
                    Unclear? Where in your footnote is the instruction about afterburner?

                    Are you still unclear about forced-draft fan blowing? Say, in terms of the excess pressure created by the fan machines in the stokeholds, or in terms of the amount of coal burned per square meter of grate per hour? Then we just need to define these figures.

                    I provided a link, figures (boost values ​​in inches of water column) and a quote from my historical source about upgrading the crane manoeuvres of the Royal Sovereign-class battleships from 9000 horsepower to 11,000 horsepower.

                    What's in the phrase: "11,000 horsepower was achieved with moderate forced traction; but the air pressure required for this power varied greatly; this again shows that machines are subject to good and bad luck." - Is this something you don't understand or don't like? Perhaps it's the phrase "moderate forced draft"? Right?
                    1. +3
                      3 September 2026 05: 45
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      Dear Andrey, just write down how much coal was burned per meter of boiler grate per hour during these tests.

                      Alexander, why do I need all this? :)))) I caught you in a lie about Paul I, I don’t need to explain or prove anything to you.
                      You've decided to prove the unprovable—well, go ahead. All you have to do is show how ships in England set record speeds on runs lasting 6-12 hours.
                      1. -1
                        4 September 2026 12: 45
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Alexander, why do I need all this? :)))) I caught you in a lie about Paul I

                        What specific lie about the battleship "Emperor Paul I" have you accused me of? Please formulate this lie in your own words. This will make the essence of your complaint against me clearer.

                        "The supply of air to the boilers to increase draft caused considerable trouble during sea trials. On the "Ivan Zlatoust," due to the lack of traditional wide-mouth deflectors, which were used in the steam production calculations, the Franco-Russian shipyard decided to conduct the tests not with open boiler compartments, as stipulated in the contract, but with closed boiler compartments and air-exhaust fans. This resulted in pressure in the compartments exceeding accepted standards. The designers of the boiler system for the "Evstafiy" chose a different approach, although they did not fully coordinate their actions with the MTK. On their own initiative, they used air supply from the same fans directly to the boiler ash pans.

                        This method allowed for greater boiler boost, which was confirmed during testing, when the Evstafiya burned 145 kg of coal per hour per meter of grate, while the Ivan Zlatoust only burned 104,5. Despite the fact that this method was radically different from the then-common naval system for supplying air to the boilers (improved draft was achieved by increasing the pressure in the boiler room), the acceptance committee decided not to redesign the pressurization system directly into the boilers, but only to make some design changes to allow for the traditional air supply. On the Ivan Zlatoust, the MTC permitted the pressure in the boiler rooms to be increased beyond technical requirements during long voyages.


                        During sea trials of the battleship "Emperor Paul I" conducted on October 19, 1910, "Coal consumption was recorded over an average of six hours of testing and during this time it turned out to be 280126 Russian pounds," i.e., on average, 124,38 kg of coal was burned per m² of grate per hour.

                        Just answer for yourself, was it forced combustion of coal in the furnace of the Belleville boilers of the battleship "Emperor Paul I", or was it a normal operating mode of the furnaces of these boilers.
                        You decided to prove the unprovable - well, go ahead.

                        People are complex creatures. Some of them are NOT ready to accept basic facts. Simply out of sheer stubbornness. To avoid changing their previously stated opinion.
            2. -1
              29 August 2026 13: 54
              Again, you're full of nonsense. The "Voevoda" and "Posadnik" had fire-tube boilers and a pressurization of 80 mm of water. On destroyers, it was sometimes as high as 140 mm.
              1. 0
                2 September 2026 11: 29
                Quote: sergiogerasimo
                You're talking nonsense again.

                You are being vulgarly rude, citizen.
                The same "Voevoda" and "Posadnik" had fire-tube boilers, and a boost of 80 mm of water column.

                The discussion focused on the command and control systems of NOT destroyers, counter-destroyers and other mine cruisers, but on the command and control systems of large artillery warships (in particular, armored cruisers).

                You can tell the respected Andrey from Chelyabinsk that 1,5-2 inches of forced-blast water column for the crane manipulator of a cruiser with fire-tube boilers, say, the cruiser "Asama," is good.

                He strenuously states the opposite.
                1. -1
                  2 September 2026 11: 41
                  You're lying, though! In every comment. And now, about the supposed "destroyer" boilers. Boilers of this type, of naval design, were installed not only on destroyers and mine-fighting cruisers, but also on many cruisers and even battleships. Every educated person knows this. Unlike others like, "...I'm Sasha, a tender child, I can count to five!"
                  1. 0
                    2 September 2026 13: 49
                    Quote: sergiogerasimo
                    You're lying, though!

                    Calm down, citizen. And here you are, lashing out like a woman in a lost argument, with exclamation points in your very first sentence.

                    I'm waiting for your quotes and links on the topic that 0,5 inches of water column excess pressure in boiler rooms from fan machines is "natural draft."

                    And if there are still no quotes or links, but only emotions, then write the sacramental: "Oh, that's it" and proudly leave.
        2. -1
          28 August 2026 11: 28
          The first ship banned from trials with forced-draft propulsion at the Russian Navy was the Gangut. This was in 1894. The Nikolai entered service in 1891, the Nakhimov, the Donskoy, and others even earlier, but none of them used forced-draft propulsion during official (non-factory) trials after the 1882 Circular. In England, all trials before 1901 were factory trials, and only after that were the ships sent to the arsenal for the installation of armament and missing armor.
          1. +1
            28 August 2026 12: 10
            Oh yes, yes, the British, with their excessive boost in the boiler rooms during sea trials.

            https://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10711&p=31

            "Thus, in the Kronstadt Bulletin No. 148 of December 19, 1893 https://viewer.rusneb.ru/ru/000200_0000 … heme=white an article was published with generalized data on the tests of the Royal Sovereign-class battleships and Afanasyev’s calculations on their actual speed with the appropriate displacement. The tone of the article is quite skeptical regarding the English Ebrs. Skepticism due to the insufficient, in the author’s opinion, area of ​​the heating surface of the boilers. The main thing is that the article provides data on the pressure in the stokeholds during tests with natural and forced draft. Thus, the forced moderate forcing mentioned in the article to develop 11,000 hp was achieved at a pressure of 1/3 to 1 inch. "Georgiy Pobedonosets" with such "moderate forcing" developed at 2500 hp more.

            In addition, a couple of numbers with tests of the "Revenge" https://viewer.rusneb.ru/ru/000200_0000 … heme=white
            under natural draft; tests of the "Revenge" and "Barfleur" https://viewer.rusneb.ru/ru/000200_0000 … heme=white under forced draft. Both issues provide information on the pressure in the stokeholds during the tests."

            P.S. I'm eagerly awaiting references from the esteemed Yuri and Andrey on who and when called the fan-assisted boost of the stokeholds at 1/2 inch of water column not "moderate boost," but "natural draft."
  10. +3
    27 August 2026 12: 53
    Quote: sergiogerasimo
    You were right. Both in England and the United States, many ships required replacement boilers after record-breaking voyages.

    In more detail - where and when was it necessary to replace the boilers?
  11. 0
    27 August 2026 19: 11
    The Boyan/Novik pairing was better than the 6-class fleet, even if there had been one less. Even taking into account the Bayan's underarmament and its odd "splinter-proof" armor on the surface side, despite the fully armored main belt.
    If you had put the same demands to the Germans, you would have received a better equivalent from Bogatyr.
    1. +1
      27 August 2026 20: 52
      Quote: clou
      If you had put the same demands to the Germans, you would have received a better equivalent from Bogatyr.

      "Yakumo" does exist... :)
      1. 0
        27 August 2026 21: 12
        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
        "Yakumo" does exist... :)

        Even with single-gun main battery mounts, the Germans would have left the deck sloped and the outer belt would have been uniformly 90-100 mm. And the speed would have been 21-22 knots.
        1. +2
          27 August 2026 23: 35
          And they (the Germans), back then (at the turn of the century) already knew how to make Krupp in 90-100mm?
          1. +2
            28 August 2026 07: 54
            Quote: Dmitry24
            And they (the Germans), back then (at the turn of the century) already knew how to make Krupp in 90-100mm?

            For the German Grossen Kreuzer "A" it was planned to use 100 mm thick steel-nickel armor.
            1. +4
              28 August 2026 10: 27
              Quote: 27091965i
              For the German Grossen Kreuzer "A" it was planned to use 100 mm thick steel-nickel armor.

              Yes, but it seems to be homogeneous...
              1. +2
                28 August 2026 10: 49
                Good morning.
                Yes, but it seems to be homogeneous..

                That's right, I've seen two initial designs, and there may have been more. Displacement: 8800-9000 tons, speed: 21 knots, armament: 2 x 240mm and 10 x 150mm guns, four 150mm guns in turrets, six in casemates. The second design is the one that was built. According to German sources, the design took into account that three Grossen Kreuzer "A" ships would operate as part of the so-called "foreign fleet."
          2. +2
            28 August 2026 13: 09
            Quote: Dmitry24
            And they (the Germans), back then (at the turn of the century) already knew how to make Krupp in 90-100mm?

            Yes, if you're talking about Krupp Cementiert. Around the same time, the lower "feasibility limit" for manufacturing slabs using the KS technology was established: 70...75 mm.
            Below these thicknesses, KS armor is equal to or worse than conventional homogeneous armor.
            1. +1
              28 August 2026 20: 00
              Good evening.
              Yes, if you're talking about Krupp Cementiert. Around the same time, the lower "feasibility limit" for manufacturing slabs using the KS technology was established: 70...75 mm.
              Below these thicknesses, KS armor is equal to or worse than conventional homogeneous armor.

              Dear Maxim, could you please provide the year and add a little more information? I've come across sources that indicate the French were the first to cement thin armor. If I'm not mistaken, that was 1903.
              1. +1
                28 August 2026 20: 43
                Quote: 27091965i
                I have come across sources that indicate that the French were the first to begin cementing thin armor.

                Here it would be good to understand what the French meant by the term "cementation".
                The fact is that there's a separate type of heat treatment for steel (including armor) called case hardening: saturating the steel with carbon to increase hardness and wear resistance. Essentially, this is part of the KS armor production cycle, but without further hardening and tempering.

                Quote: 27091965i
                Could you please provide the year and add a little more information?

                I need to look in the books: I can’t answer right away.
            2. 0
              31 August 2026 13: 39
              At thicknesses less than 127 mm, the shell resistance of Harvey-nickel (cemented, water-shower-hardened) and Krupp chromium-nickel (cemented, water-shower-hardened) armor was identical. However, the aforementioned Krupp armor appeared after 1903. Cemented Harvey-nickel armor was 75 mm thick, while Krupp cemented chromium-nickel was 89 mm thick. Plates with thinner thicknesses cracked during production.
      2. -1
        31 August 2026 13: 27
        Yeah, there is, with a speed of 15 knots in July 1904, and with effort.