Military Review

“Chopper” of communication channels: new EW aircraft

80
The other day, "Izvestia" opened the veil of secrecy over one of the new projects designed to update the Air Force. The publication became aware of the end of flight tests of the IL-22PP aircraft with a new electronic warfare system (EW) installed on it. By early May, the staff of the Flight Research Institute. M.M. Gromov did all the necessary work and handed over the plane with the EW system to state tests. Over the next few months, a new system for jamming will go on board.


A prototype of the jamming and airborne reconnaissance aircraft Il-22PP (OKP "Porubshchik") after re-equipment at OAO 20th aviation repair plant "in Pushkin. The aircraft has registration RA-75903 (serial number 0393610235, built as IL-22 in 1979). 03.04.2012/XNUMX/XNUMX (c) Vyacheslav Babaevsky / russianplanes.net


The new complex is called the “Feller” and has higher characteristics than previous similar systems. In addition, when creating this EW system, some technical solutions were applied that significantly increased its combat capabilities. The main feature of the "Beater" was the ability to influence only the signals of a certain frequency, without affecting others. Earlier, the EW systems of previous models, as Izvestia wrote, often suppressed not only the signals of enemy electronic systems, but also their own, which had corresponding tactical consequences. The new "Chopper", according to the source of the publication related to the tests, is able to work selectively.

So, before turning on the active jamming system, the complex scans all the available radio signals and finds the frequencies at which the enemy’s transmitters operate. At this time, the aircraft itself does not emit anything - the equipment operates exclusively in the reception mode. After finding the most important communication channel of the enemy or the signal of an enemy radar station, the equipment operators turn on the jammer and interfere with the desired frequency range. In addition, the new “Fischer” complex can radiate interference only in the right direction, which will be useful in certain circumstances.

IL-22М11 RA-75925 after upgrading to EMZ them. Myasishchev


The equipment of the “Cutter” complex is said to be able to effectively deal with all possible targets, such as airborne early warning and control aircraft, air defense systems, as well as manned and unmanned aircraft. In fact, several aircraft equipped with an electronic warfare complex will be able to disrupt or even paralyze the operation of the potential enemy in a given area.

During the tests, the IL-22 aircraft (air command center based on the IL-18) was used as a carrier of the electronic warfare complex. The car built in the late seventies, before installing special electronic equipment, was repaired, and some changes were made to its design. The work was carried out at the Experimental Machine-Building Plant. V.M. Myasishchev. The most notable difference in the IL-22PP aircraft from the base machine was a few large fairings on the sides, inside which the antennas are located. Interesting reasons why the "Fischer" was installed exactly on the plane, whose age is close to 35 years. According to Izvestia, the command of the Air Force wanted an EW complex based on more advanced technology, but none of the existing modern aircraft met the flight performance requirements, primarily the flight duration.

The use of an old aircraft had corresponding consequences. "Izvestia" cite the words of an unnamed representative of the Air Force, according to which, even after repair, the renewed IL-22P will be able to serve no more than ten years. Thus, over time, a new carrier will be needed for the “Feller” complex. Taking into account the reasons for which the Il-22 was chosen as the basis, it is possible to draw appropriate sad conclusions about the future selection of a new basic aircraft.

However, it is in its current form that the new aviation complex of electronic warfare Il-22PP has entered the state tests. Approximately by the end of the year, the jamming aircraft designer will complete all the necessary checks and will be put into service. According to Izvestia, it is planned to introduce five such machines into the air force, including a prototype.

News The completion of the main work on the new electronic warfare complex for the Air Force is undoubtedly pleasant and positive. Domestic Air Forces have not received new special aircraft with similar equipment for a long time, and therefore the IL-22PP complex with the “Chopper” system is of great importance for the renewal of military aviation. After the start of the service, new aircraft will close an important tactical niche, the priority of which has been constantly increasing in recent years.

The armed forces of leading foreign countries are constantly updating their control and communication systems, as well as launching new equipment for various purposes. For example, a modern war with the participation of NATO is unthinkable without the use of long-range radar detection aircraft and unmanned aerial vehicles of various classes. Thus, IL-22PP aircraft with the “Chopper” can become one of the main means designed to impede the actions of the enemy, paralyzing its communication channels, detection systems, etc.

There are works on the modernization of the IL-22 in the IL-22PP version. A serial modernization of the first side is planned for the 2012-2013, the next two are being worked on - on the 2013-2014 (http://www.redstar.gr)


On the materials of the sites:
http://izvestia.ru/
http://lenta.ru/
http://i-mash.ru/
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/
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  1. Professor
    Professor 3 June 2013 07: 55 New
    13
    So, before turning on the active jamming system, the complex scans all available radio signals and finds frequencieson which the enemy’s transmitters work.

    A dog is buried here. The problem is to find these frequencies when they jump across the entire spectrum hundreds of times per second in a pseudo-random sequence, which is practically impossible to decipher — there simply will not be enough time because the key is changed quite often.
    1. Forget
      Forget 3 June 2013 08: 24 New
      +7
      Well, by how they jump, you can identify the desired signal and track it .. game theory allows you to do this
      1. Professor
        Professor 3 June 2013 08: 32 New
        +5
        Quote: Forget
        you can identify the desired signal and track it .. game theory allows you to do this

        Theoretically possible, practically not. Not only is it unknown at what frequency the next signal will appear in the next mile second (that is, only UAVs and control stations or satellites are known), but these bastards, in addition to this useful signal, simultaneously transmit a duplicate signal and even several, as well as false signals . Here go, know what, where and when to jam.

        Game theory has nothing to do with it. request
        1. leon-iv
          leon-iv 3 June 2013 08: 57 New
          +2
          Game theory has nothing to do with it.

          Everything correctly rolls speed and processing power.
          1. elmir15
            elmir15 3 June 2013 21: 19 New
            +2
            Such aircraft with an electronic warfare complex are very necessary; by their usefulness they can probably be equated to long-range radar reconnaissance aircraft. We need not tens, but hundreds of EW aircraft
            1. old man54
              old man54 3 June 2013 23: 14 New
              +2
              15 pieces would be done and it would be happiness! And you ... hundreds)
              1. elmir15
                elmir15 4 June 2013 00: 07 New
                +1
                why think small? under the USSR, orders were more ambitious, it was time to move to a large-scale level.
                1. old man54
                  old man54 4 June 2013 00: 51 New
                  +3
                  oh oh I have these dreams of the past USSR then! :))) That's when Russia will reach the economic indicators of the USSR at least the 90 of the year (its record is far from record), then I will seriously take such statements and posts! After all, I don’t mind that principle, but ... But it turns out like in life often, when someone receives an average of 20tr a month, but seriously looks at the new Mercier S class! :) you must first stretch the economy, thieves for hang the pillars, restore the military-industrial complex, and then already about the Napoleonic Wishlist to stutter.
                  1. elmir15
                    elmir15 4 June 2013 10: 08 New
                    +2
                    In the 90 years, just a little money was allocated to the army, but now it’s not a little money. So there is financing, it’s another matter that they steal a lot and reach the addressee a little. We have our own “merci” in the army: Su, Migi class airplanes, ISKANDER, S-300,400 systems and a lot of excellent equipment, and yet we find money to buy, so that some plants do not keep up with orders and build new plants to increase output. So not everything is as bad as it seems)))
                    1. old man54
                      old man54 4 June 2013 18: 00 New
                      +1
                      Well, God forbid that they emit! Once again - I am not against this. :) But I am categorically against the fact that again the whole country would begin to “work” only for the defense industry, as it already was, even if they even stop stealing at the top. Then the generals with big stars, stupefied by such an abundance of funds, will again literally be scattered with folk money (of a taxpayer) and constantly order new equipment and not at all cherish and value the one that they already have! I am in favor of the very expedient and prudent conduct of the military operations, as a whole, and not only in the sphere of Moscow Defense! I think we will not recall the domestic history of the creation of ICBMs for nuclear submarines when new nuclear powered ships were designed and built for each new type of sea-based ICBMs! And now, again, such trends are clearly visible again, both in the speeches of the military-industrial complex commanders and in the actions of your high-ranking military commanders, which is already beginning to annoy! The fact that now a lot of money is spent on defense does not mean at all that there will be a lot of it tomorrow! The price of oil / gas will fall and that’s all ... we arrived! :)) Eat what will we then? And we have no other, in the sense of industry, or that there is already no way! Sorry, I’m telling you about a strategic, state approach to the budget, and you tell me ... by the type of thinking of the military in Soviet times! Here was an article about the fact that recently Su-24 was equipped with the Hephaestus sighting system, find it, read it carefully, you will understand what I am explaining to you about!
                      1. elmir15
                        elmir15 5 June 2013 11: 21 New
                        +2
                        Of course, economics is the foundation of everything. Without a good economy, no army can last long. At one time, playing games - strategies before trying to conquer to develop the economy, the welfare of the country, he tried to maintain a well-equipped army, on the contrary it did not work. The country is not able to drag a huge army on its shoulders, especially in wars. It sounds funny but the strategy games well develop strategic, tactical thinking, a kind of chess, therefore it is useful for the younger generation to play at least a little bit of them. I see your thought - a lot of money is allocated to the army, a lot does not reach the addressee because a lot is stolen, and oil and gas prices will not be forever high. Salaries to the military that raised well, but I think that a little overdone since now the difference in salaries between the military and civilians has greatly increased. If you increase then the other too. In general, I think that only a person like Lukashenko can restore order in the country, he reminds me of Stalin. I would like our country to unite with Belarus and Lukashenko to be president, otherwise Lukashenko would refuse to unite without a presidency. Well, he quickly put things in order everywhere.
                      2. old man54
                        old man54 6 June 2013 01: 48 New
                        0
                        No, perhaps the fact that the salary was raised by the military is not bad, now for this salary it is necessary to ask them accordingly and strictly, and the preparation of drugs and their personal level. Whatever it was, just like on the stove, they sat happily and scratched their belly. :) And this happened before, and now even more so ...
                        the economy and power of the state is certainly yes, I agree with you completely. But it’s very annoying that the generals don’t cherish what they have, not even the old one, although our country's economy is frivolous today, it seems everyone understands this, but ... This applies to the Navy and the Navy and to the NE. Instead of re-equipping, upgrading existing and not bad equipment, especially the carriers of arms, they write off, ruin, and under the sauce that money is allocated today, they shout that it’s better to build a new one!: ((Is this for someone better? For the military-industrial complex? For officials and generals, do they have excessive kickbacks for this? Is it better for our common economy? And they write wild nonsense on the topic that it’s more efficient to build a new one than to change the stuffing, as a rule electronics, in existing ships, planes , tanks, SAM, etc. But under this under we don’t have enough money to bring the army into a more or less adequate form, corresponding to the external threats of the country !!! And it’s directly readable and it’s sad that you won’t be able to transfer it !! There’s something like that in 35 / 39 of the last century during the time of the temporary detention facility was put up against the wall, or sawed wood for years, so they sent it to 15!
      2. Firstvanguard
        Firstvanguard 4 June 2013 08: 41 New
        +1
        Professor and here a great specialist, educates the illiterate wassat
        1. Professor
          Professor 4 June 2013 10: 25 New
          -1
          Quote: Firstvanguard
          Professor and here a great specialist, educates the illiterate wassat

          To educate such literate people as you are not great, you can start with arithmetic laughing
  2. Aeneas
    Aeneas 3 June 2013 08: 41 New
    +5
    the interference is broadband, and the range is known. If this is a plane, it means that the jammer is strategic and will interfere at the level of the army corps or AUG. The ranges of the radio communications of these compounds are known, even by the shape of the antenna can be determined. Of course, the adversary will not sit "clasped hands" and will oppose. The aircraft is slow moving and needs to be covered from missiles and aircraft. There is a tactical director too. This is the Mandate complex by helicopter.
    1. Professor
      Professor 3 June 2013 08: 52 New
      +6
      Quote: Aeneas
      the interference is broadband, and the range is known.

      The article refers specifically to narrowband interference.

      Quote: Aeneas
      The ranges of the radio communications of these compounds are known, you can even determine by the shape of the antenna

      Determine by the shape of the antenna in my car at what frequency I am now listening to the radio, 88.8, 107, etc.? wink

      There is still such a chip:
      Problems with noise immunity and "repeated image" were the most difficult to solve. They led to the introduction of the technology of so-called “smart” antennas, usually based on “digital beamforming” in software. The idea behind this technology is simple, but as usual is complicated in detail. A conventional GPS antenna receives signals from the entire upper hemisphere above the rocket, thus including GPS satellites, as well as enemy interference. The so-called Controlled Reception Pattern Antenna (CRPA), using software, synthesizes narrow beams directed to the intended location of the GPS satellites, resulting in the antenna being “blind” in all other directions. The most advanced designs of antennas of this type produce the so-called “zeros” in the antenna pattern aimed at interference sources to further suppress their influence.
      1. Aeneas
        Aeneas 3 June 2013 09: 54 New
        17
        They “crush” the frequency bands of the VHF range on which radio communications operate, essenically initially revealing the enemy’s location and frequency with the help of RTR. To “suppress” the entire VHF band in all directions, we need very powerful transmitters, but the VHF is good because the interference can be narrowly targeted. Well, and regarding the jamming of GPS on cruise missiles. So yes, ideally you need to put an obstacle “from above”, almost from space, within the visibility of the radio horizon (the microwave signal has no envelope properties). These stories about the Serbs that turned on the microwave ovens and pointed them towards rockets and planes were mixed already in the 90s .... By car, it’s not easy to identify your receiver, but radio transmitters, and even more so transceivers, are very easy to identify the appearance of the antenna (LW, NE, HF, VHF) range, and therefore their purpose: short-wave stations, microwave, tropospheric or satellite. This means that they are servicing the communication center at what level of the unit-part headquarters, which means that the headquarters itself is nearby, etc.
        1. Professor
          Professor 3 June 2013 10: 12 New
          0
          Quote: Aeneas
          They “crush” the frequency bands of the VHF range on which radio communications operate, essenically initially revealing the enemy’s location and frequency with the help of RTR.

          I agree with you, however, the article talks about specific frequencies that press, and they can only be determined if the enemy uses only this frequency. In practice, these frequencies jump across the entire spectrum and it is possible to drown them out only with white noise (unless of course there is enough power laughing ) leaving their troops unconnected.

          The so-called antenna with a controlled beam pattern (Controlled Reception Pattern Antenna, CRPA) is not only on the RC, but also on the UAVs with a link to the communication satellite.

          In short, the "Chopper" against advanced UAVs is powerless. request
          1. Aeneas
            Aeneas 3 June 2013 10: 53 New
            +5
            a controlled radiation pattern does not change the frequency in some quasi-continuous mode or algorithm. The antenna simply focuses on a certain angle in azimuth and elevation angle mechanically or electronically according to the flashed software algorithm ... It seems to me :-)
            1. Professor
              Professor 3 June 2013 11: 41 New
              0
              Quote: Aeneas
              A directive radiation pattern does not change the frequency in some quasi-continuous mode or algorithm. The antenna simply focuses on a certain angle in azimuth and elevation angle mechanically or electronically according to the flashed software algorithm ... It seems to me :-)

              It is also capable of changing the operating frequency according to the algorithm I described earlier. hi
          2. Mikhail3
            Mikhail3 3 June 2013 16: 39 New
            +6
            The article primarily says that you can determine the approximate position of the transmitter and crush it. Jumping over a range? Let them ride. Read carefully - you can crush the entire range EXCEPT those frequencies at which our equipment operates. And there will be few of them. How much data from the package will survive? Are they enough to control the same UAV? In addition, if there is an approximate direction, nothing prevents you from checking if our equipment is there, and if not, you can click with white noise. If a newfangled antenna cuts its diagram using software, I wouldn’t be so sure that the interference would be ineffective, since the use of mechanical devices for rotating the antenna will significantly reduce the life. Most likely the antenna is omnidirectional, or it is a package of antennas. And the software chooses those that work in the right direction ...
            1. Professor
              Professor 3 June 2013 20: 56 New
              -1
              Quote: Mikhail3
              Read carefully - you can crush the entire range EXCEPT those frequencies at which our equipment operates.

              To crush the entire range, it is necessary to fly with a nuclear reactor, otherwise there will not be enough power. White noise is very gluttonous.

              Quote: Mikhail3
              If a newfangled antenna cuts its diagram using software, I wouldn’t be so sure that the interference would be ineffective, since the use of mechanical devices for rotating the antenna will significantly reduce the life. Most likely the antenna is omnidirectional, or it is a package of antennas. And the software selects those that work in the right direction ..

              CRPA is a serious thing and no one has yet drowned it. request
    2. nakaz
      nakaz 3 June 2013 22: 13 New
      +1
      It is enough to identify the signal source and cover the area with carpet bombing :-)
  3. JonnyT
    JonnyT 3 June 2013 08: 42 New
    +3
    And how then is the synchronization between the receiver and the transmitter?
    1. Professor
      Professor 3 June 2013 08: 45 New
      +2
      Quote: JonnyT
      And how then is the synchronization between the receiver and the transmitter?

      And there are atomic clocks, small and expensive. There is an option with a request at a certain frequency after receiving which there is synchronization. That is, after establishing a connection, you can start drinking beer.
    2. Aeneas
      Aeneas 3 June 2013 09: 56 New
      +3
      But what about electro-magnetic compatibility with other means of communication, data transfer, navigation, operating in the same range?
  4. mogus
    mogus 3 June 2013 09: 38 New
    +3
    The main feature of "Chopper" was the ability to act only on signals with a certain frequency, without affecting others. Earlier, electronic warfare systems of previous models, as Izvestia writes, during operation often suppressed signals not only of enemy radio-electronic systems, but also of their

    We conclude: before that, everyone was jammed, including his own. Now added the ability to "disable" the desired frequency (at which your own). The rest of the transceivers can be jammed constantly at certain frequencies of the enemy.
    1. Aeneas
      Aeneas 3 June 2013 10: 15 New
      +3
      in order not to jam your own ones, the antenna must be oriented towards the enemy (if VHF), but if the HF (the antenna is visible from the tail to the cockpit in the picture) then yes, some sort of selection is necessary.
  5. svp67
    svp67 3 June 2013 11: 13 New
    +3
    Quote: Professor
    which is almost impossible to decrypt, it’s just not enough time because the key is changed quite often.
    And the “Logger” sets as his goal, to make sure that the “masters” of the signal also could not decrypt anything ...
    1. Professor
      Professor 3 June 2013 11: 43 New
      0
      Quote: svp67
      And the “Logger” sets as his goal, to make sure that the “masters” of the signal also could not decrypt anything ...

      That is, to clog the whole spectrum with white noise is not for oneself. Probably they put a nuclear reactor on this plane. wink
      1. leon-iv
        leon-iv 3 June 2013 11: 49 New
        +4
        Probably they put a nuclear reactor on this plane.
        nuclear is not nuclear but energy on board be healthy I know from several other aircraft.
  6. AlexAl
    AlexAl 3 June 2013 11: 26 New
    +5
    Professor! You need to carefully read the text. It says there will be 5 aircraft. Everyone will jam their narrow range. They are configured during the manufacturing process of the system and have versions from .01 to .05.
    And at the reception they listen only in order to make sure that there is no Russian mat, and not to drown their own.
    The above is a joke.


    Like an adult, but believe in fairy tales. So they wrote to you about the width of the range, and other technical characteristics.

    And the pilots are extremely drunk fly, according to sinusoidal technology.


    Sincerely.
    1. leon-iv
      leon-iv 3 June 2013 11: 42 New
      +4
      her professional writes about something else. Everyone thinks that the wunderwaffle will fly in and drown out the control channels from the satellites. He also describes the complexity thereof using the example of a quick change of frequencies and a narrowly targeted antenna. That's all. ALL question AS is muffled. And the IL-22PP is a very suitable and necessary device and the IL-18 platform is almost eternal.
    2. Professor
      Professor 3 June 2013 11: 46 New
      -2
      Quote: AlexAl
      Everyone will jam their narrow range. They are configured during the manufacturing process of the system and have versions from .01 to .05.

      If they will jam a narrow range without knowing what frequencies are broadcast, then why do we need such a plane? He will cope with his task, he will not break communication with the UAV. request
      1. AlexAl
        AlexAl 3 June 2013 15: 39 New
        +6
        I wrote - they listen to the Russian mat on the air, if there is no deafening mat. If 5 planes is not enough - we will make another 100 and drown out a lot of narrow-band signals. And there’s nowhere for enemy’s planes to fly, since there are 105 planes in the sky simultaneously, flying in a sinusoid or cosine wave (it depends on which foot got up on the rise before departure) - this is such traffic that the pilots will get confused and run away! am


        Professor! What do you think is the principle of electronic warfare? Before the appearance of the aircraft described in the article and after its appearance. And where does the attempt to decrypt the signal (sending) the enemy and the dynamic restructuring of the channels to bypass electronic warfare.
        Or are you alluding to the fact that our designer with his hands is not from that place, but all the rest of the world's luminaries?
        I think you shouldn’t have clung to the channels and a narrow range here.
        Yours!
        1. Professor
          Professor 3 June 2013 16: 13 New
          -3
          Quote: AlexAl
          I wrote - they listen to the Russian mat on the air, if there is no deafening mat. If 5 planes is not enough - we will make another 100 and drown out a lot of narrow-band signals. And there’s nowhere for enemy’s planes to fly, since there are 105 planes in the sky simultaneously, flying in a sinusoid or cosine wave (it depends on which foot got up on the rise before departure) - this is such traffic that the pilots will get confused and run away!

          Amused me. You can take all the aviation into the air and jam the whole spectrum, because you don’t know what specifically to jam.

          Quote: AlexAl
          Or are you alluding to the fact that our designer with his hands is not from that place, but all the rest of the world's luminaries?

          The laws of physics do not recognize either political or national affiliation. They are universal for everyone. The bourgeois designers and operators of electronic warfare are also faced with the problem of recognizing the broadcast frequency. And this problem has not yet been solved by anyone.
          1. AlexAl
            AlexAl 3 June 2013 17: 14 New
            +4
            But what the hell in the first post of the article to shit what you do not know? Some problems jumped from frequency to frequency were invented. I jokingly respond to your stupid post with frequency hopping.
            And you say to me with plain truths:
            "The laws of physics do not recognize either political or national affiliation. They are universal for everyone. The bourgeois designers and operators of electronic warfare are faced with the problem of recognizing the broadcast frequency. And this problem has not yet been solved by anyone."


            I wrote to you: "I think you shouldn’t have clung to the channels and a narrow range here."


            Yours!
            1. Professor
              Professor 3 June 2013 20: 59 New
              -4
              Quote: AlexAl
              But what the hell in the first post of the article to shit what you do not know? Some problems jumped from frequency to frequency were invented. I jokingly respond to your stupid post with frequency hopping.

              I'm sorry you didn’t understand anything. sad
              1. AlexAl
                AlexAl 3 June 2013 22: 52 New
                +3
                Professor! You made the wrong conclusion about me. I understand what you are writing about, but this is a little off topic, as I think. The task is not to intercept the signal, but to analyze the spectrum of the signals in a wide range, and then jam the bands that we consider necessary and which we consider, depend on many that are not known to us. So, the radiation power can be changed depending on the spectrum through the channels and only in a certain range, and on the others - a different power. Then the reactor can not be carried. And in this airplane, a jump in frequencies will probably be faster than you voiced in the first post. And it jumps in frequency not to intercept enemy messages, but to induce interference in the ranges of the enemy transmitters, taking into account their jumps through the channels for channel encryption.
                with respect.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. Professor
                  Professor 4 June 2013 10: 21 New
                  -3
                  Thank God, I got a clear answer.

                  Quote: AlexAl
                  The task is not to intercept the signal, but to analyze the spectrum of the signals in a wide range, and then jam the bands that we consider necessary and which we consider, depend on many that are not known to us.

                  And I about it. In order to suppress “those bands” they need to be found, but as it is known, frequency hopping does not necessarily use “bands”, but the whole spectrum. Accordingly, it can only be jammed with white noise. Here is an example of a “domestic” MFC, and not the most advanced one. Try to explain how the bourgeoisie can drown him. You can recall both probability and expectation; according to statistics, I had a solid “five”. wink

                  Q-MAC frequency hopping option

                  Quote: AlexAl
                  And in this airplane, a jump in frequencies will probably be faster than you voiced in the first post. And it jumps in frequency not to intercept enemy messages, but to induce interference in the ranges of the enemy transmitters, taking into account their jumps through the channels for channel encryption.

                  Once again: no one knows where to jump and what to jam.
                  The frequency hopping pseudo-random sequence algorithm provides 7.2x1016 different frequency hopping codes. It means that code repeat period is 457 million years, thereby providing the highest level of communication security.
                  1. AlexAl
                    AlexAl 4 June 2013 17: 22 New
                    +2
                    Professor!
                    Well, how do you explain. Channel hopping has strictly defined steps (discreteness), due to the laws of physics, which you will not argue in any way at all, the channel bandwidth directly depends on the data transfer rate both during FM modulation and QPSK-x. So, even if you are shifted by an arbitrary bias step, the channel bandwidth will be the same, using a spectrum analyzer with a small frequency tuning step, and even simultaneous analysis over the entire band, and knowing the principle and width of your transmission systems, choose at which frequencies to jam I think there are no problems. And the receivers also have the selectivity parameter for the adjacent channel, and it is exclusively a finite value, so about 100-140 dB for very cool stations.

                    Considering that two-way communication is usually not used - for obvious reasons (source limitation, slow communication and other restrictions), then spoiling for example of 100 packets of 50 will result in legibility violation or failure of the command, well, something like that. And as you know, the "progressive" world is constantly using thick channels (to look at girls naked on the beach :)) and here we are waiting for an answer from you to a previously asked question, after which the person went for popcorn.


                    Best regards
                    1. Professor
                      Professor 4 June 2013 21: 53 New
                      -2
                      Quote: AlexAl
                      So, even if you are shifted by an arbitrary bias step, the channel bandwidth will be the same, using a spectrum analyzer with a small frequency tuning step, and even simultaneous analysis over the entire band, and knowing the principle and width of your transmission systems, choose at which frequencies to jam I think there are no problems.

                      Started for health, finished for peace. Now I will try to explain to you. The data transfer speed and channel width are inversely proportional; they have nothing to do with hopping from frequency to frequency, and even more so to detect broadcast frequencies. For example, you broadcast a compressed video signal at a frequency of "X" with a channel width of plus / minus "x" (catch Europe Plus). After a minute, jump to the "U" frequency with the same channel width (listen to Russian Radio). Suppose I have the opportunity to interfere wherever I want (to listen to which radio station you are currently listening to). So, I have no way to predict at what frequency (wavelength) you will broadcast in the next minute (which radio station out of 1000 you will listen to in the next minute). Deciphering this sequence is simply not realistic. Now you begin to jump from one wave to another with a sequence known only to you a hundred times per second, and use the entire possible spectrum (radio stations from 88FM to 108 FM wink ) What wave do I jam? All? Then I will not hear any radio ...

                      Quote: AlexAl
                      And the receivers also have the selectivity parameter for the adjacent channel, and it is exclusively a finite value, so about 100-140 dB for very cool stations.

                      Crosstalk for what reason dragged? request

                      Quote: AlexAl
                      Considering that two-way communication is usually not used - for obvious reasons (source limitation, slow communication and other restrictions), then spoiling for example of 100 packets of 50 will result in legibility violation or failure of the command, well, something like that. And as you know, the "progressive" world is constantly and nearby uses thick channels (to consider naked girls on the beach

                      In civilian communications, the acceptable Bit Error Rate (BER) error is one in 10 in the thirteenth minute. In military systems, a completely different opera. hi
                    2. AlexAl
                      AlexAl 4 June 2013 23: 44 New
                      0
                      about the bandwidth, you are absolutely right, I earned it and learned at the same time.
        2. AlexAl
          AlexAl 3 June 2013 17: 32 New
          +1
          Yes, we are all ready to drown, anyway (whatever) there was no war!
      2. old man54
        old man54 3 June 2013 23: 31 New
        +1
        Quote: AlexAl
        Professor! What do you think is the principle of electronic warfare? Or are you alluding to the fact that our designer with his hands is not from that place, but all the rest of the world's luminaries?
        Yours!

        N-yes, this is a “professor” (sour cheeks), and that’s it! :) Now, if an article about a similar aircraft made in Israel were delivered to the OAI, then yes, then everything would be on fire !: )) And what good can they do in lapatny Russia? :)) Already entered a person on the black list so as not to react, but even according to the answers of others to his pearls, it becomes sad here. :( How to be, huh :)))
  • yanus
    yanus 3 June 2013 17: 07 New
    10
    Quote: Professor
    A dog is buried here. The problem is to find these frequencies when they jump across the entire spectrum hundreds of times per second in a pseudo-random sequence, which is practically impossible to decipher — there simply will not be enough time because the key is changed quite often.

    And the frequency range is of course endless?)))
    In general, stop repeating this heresy. All this frequency change is intended primarily to complicate access to “useful” information.
    By the way, about "jumping across the entire spectrum hundreds of times per second." In digital communications, what is the packet size, channel width and ping in order to transmit video data? And what will happen if EW will "spoil" part of these packages?
    :: went for popcorn ::
    1. AlexAl
      AlexAl 3 June 2013 17: 18 New
      +4
      Well, finally a sane person appeared. I’m joking all about it, but they don’t understand me, and they are trying to convince me of the problem of jumping from frequency to frequency when solving the electronic warfare problem. Yes, seriously so!
    2. beard999
      beard999 3 June 2013 19: 16 New
      12
      Quote: yanus
      went for popcorn

      I think in vain. You will not learn anything new and interesting from the professor. The same mantra will be repeated - “hundreds of jumps per second across the entire spectrum”. And that’s all. He repeated this here more than once, and to add to this, he has nothing, because in the subject under discussion, the professor swims openly. According to an Israeli legend, frequency hopping is a kind of super technology that makes it impossible to suppress a radio-emitting object, in principle. The fact that this technology has existed for more than 70 years (patented in 1941), neither the professor nor his countrymen, apparently even guess. As well as the fact that during this time, frequency hopping did not become an absolute technology that could reliably protect radio-emitting means from suppression. Although, the fact that this is quite feasible has been written more than once in popular science literature (for example: http://www.sozvezdie.su/science/izdaniya/pomehozashishennost_sistem_radiosvyazi_
      4/ ). The funny thing is, if you ask the Israelis whether it is possible to suppress them with electronic warfare, for example, Russian S-300 / S-400 type air defense systems, they will certainly answer you - you can! The fact that the radars of these systems (the same 91N6 detection radar) operate in the frequency hopping mode does not bother them at all. But Russian electronic warfare systems, Israeli (and generally Western) radio-emitting objects, with the frequency hopping mode, cannot suppress. Here is such a “logic." In general, kindergarten ...
      The professor refuses to communicate with me (he is blacklisted). Perhaps you can dispel his dense fallacies.
    3. Professor
      Professor 3 June 2013 21: 01 New
      -2
      Quote: yanus
      :: went for popcorn ::

      When you return, let me know that I still have this heresy. wink
      1. aviamed90
        aviamed90 4 June 2013 22: 03 New
        +3
        As our teacher on electronic warfare said - "So that the adversary does not clog your radio in the air - chat on its frequency. It will be more fun."
  • omsbon
    omsbon 3 June 2013 08: 53 New
    +3
    I liked the name - BURNER!
  • Forget
    Forget 3 June 2013 08: 58 New
    +3
    Quote: Professor
    at what frequency the next signal appears in the next mile second is unknown

    But this is the theory of games, cat and mouse
  • Owl
    Owl 3 June 2013 09: 16 New
    +1
    Now it is necessary, during the operation of this instance, during classes and participation in exercises to identify deficiencies, eliminate the identified ones, work through and start a program to improve the complex. so that on a new board (IL-18 launched too long ago) to establish a reliable workable complex, which will be on a par with the world's best electronic warfare systems.
  • Svarog
    Svarog 3 June 2013 09: 23 New
    +1
    A wide range for a serious opponent, narrow for the Papuans, so as not to disturb others - tolerance is now everywhere :). For the war of 2008, I think such a system would be useful.
  • Straga
    Straga 3 June 2013 09: 44 New
    +3
    And there are atomic clocks, small and expensive.

    Is that something, professor?
    A signalmen in lead underpants walk.
    1. Professor
      Professor 3 June 2013 10: 18 New
      +6

      Researchers in the US have developed the world's first commercial portable atomic clock, which could be yours for just $ 1500. The SA.45s Chip Size Atomic Clock (CSAC) has been jointly developed by US firm Symmetricom, the Draper Laboratory in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and Sandia National Laboratories. About the size of a matchbox, the clock weighs 35 g, has a power requirement of only 115 mW and could be used for everything from disabling bombs to searching for oil.

      But this is not necessary. GPS satellites transmit accurate time signals using even non-atomic clocks ...
      1. leon-iv
        leon-iv 3 June 2013 11: 43 New
        +1
        GPS satellites transmit accurate time signals using even non-atomic clocks ...

        Naturally, it’s not for nothing that centers around the world that Glonass and GPS are stumbled. Yes, and in any large organization there is a time server.
      2. screw cutter
        screw cutter 3 June 2013 18: 18 New
        0
        And what GPS frequencies do they work at? And change the frequency several times per second, and if at that moment several packets drop out, then what? And you can also record and broadcast packets, but at different frequencies.
        1. Professor
          Professor 3 June 2013 21: 05 New
          -1
          GPS operate at the primary and backup frequencies without jumping across the entire spectrum.
  • Dangerous
    Dangerous 3 June 2013 10: 12 New
    +4
    They should have been better than the Pe-8 of the Second World War as the equipment carrier to choose. And what, very well, this plane has proved itself in due time. As it is now fashionable to say, they would “modernize” it and put it into service. And a big plus - you can launch from unpaved airfields, beauty! Well, what if they cannot master the production of new Tu-95 aircraft, or at least on the basis of current civilian aircraft, then I think this is able to produce
    1. Forget
      Forget 3 June 2013 11: 06 New
      +3
      yes .. and maybe Ilya Muromets (Sikorsky) can be revived smile
  • Straga
    Straga 3 June 2013 11: 13 New
    0
    But this is not necessary. GPS satellites transmit accurate time signals using even non-atomic clocks ...

    But just for GPS they are used. By the way, as for GLONASS. Otherwise, professor, how do we calculate the exact location of the navigation satellites?
    1. Professor
      Professor 3 June 2013 11: 47 New
      +2
      GPS signals are used not only to calculate the location of an object, but also to determine the exact time. The size of the atomic watch removed the questions?
  • Enot-poloskun
    Enot-poloskun 3 June 2013 12: 32 New
    +2
    The news is definitely good!

    We must send to Syria for testing!

    But Israel is small, maybe it will cover it all with hindrances.
  • lazy
    lazy 3 June 2013 15: 01 New
    +1
    the worst thing is that the filling is new and the glider is old, there is no adequate replacement for the IL, and how much does it fly after modernization?
    1. old man54
      old man54 3 June 2013 23: 47 New
      +1
      Quote: lazy
      the worst thing is that the filling is new and the glider is old, there is no adequate replacement for the IL, and how much does it fly after modernization?

      Strange, it seems that not so long ago the Tu-95 MS was released, which means the slipways should still be alive and the technologists couldn’t get anywhere. He, Tu-95 (Tu-114), for LTH for these purposes will be better. This decision of the Moscow Region is not entirely clear, and the explanation for this in the article is indistinct. And the fact that the plane is old ... I do not think that we need to develop a special plane for it. The guys under the flag from the prison robe are still using the Boeing-707 for these needs, and nothing, he is a little IL-18 younger. :)
  • Brummbar
    Brummbar 3 June 2013 15: 36 New
    +2
    Professor, why do you not like Russian so much?
    1. Professor
      Professor 3 June 2013 16: 16 New
      0
      Quote: Brummbar
      Professor, why do you not like Russian so much?

      Young man, we didn’t switch to “you”.

      I have nothing against the Russians and you will not find a single disrespectful statement against the Russian people. Here we discuss a very specific materiel and the principle of its operation. No more and no less.
      1. AlexAl
        AlexAl 3 June 2013 17: 26 New
        +4
        Sorry Professor, but it didn’t smell like a materiel - so some thoughts about anything that are in no way related to this topic. My purely personal opinion.

        It’s just that your urge towards the plane and narrowband suppression of the frequency band by it causes a response in people who think a little with their heads and do not selectively cling to journalistic terms, and belittle the advantages of the developed technology, a priori that it was developed in Russia, especially not having complete data on its performance characteristics.

        Yours!
        1. Professor
          Professor 3 June 2013 21: 14 New
          -4
          Quote: AlexAl
          Sorry Professor, but it didn’t smell like a materiel - so some thoughts about anything that are in no way related to this topic. My purely personal opinion.

          It’s just that your urge towards the plane and narrowband suppression of the frequency band by it causes a response in people who think a little with their heads and do not selectively cling to journalistic terms, and belittle the advantages of the developed technology, a priori that it was developed in Russia, especially not having complete data on its performance characteristics.

          I do not apologize and send you to study the materiel, namely the principle of operation of the antenna with a controlled radiation pattern and frequency hopping radio frequency communications. Good luck.
          hi
          1. AlexAl
            AlexAl 3 June 2013 23: 02 New
            0
            Professor, be careful, otherwise I will send you too for the materiel. Your prprch has been known for many years and there are a lot of works on them, and as there were no absolutely reliable communication channels, there are none and are unlikely to be. Our overseas friends have everything in absolute terms, tanks, f16, and other non-vulnerable elements of weapons, and we have the probabilities and expectations.
  • Zubr
    Zubr 3 June 2013 17: 11 New
    +2
    Quote: lazy
    the worst thing is that the filling is new and the glider is old, there is no adequate replacement for the IL, and how much does it fly after modernization?


    IL-18 on the basis of which this complex was developed, for the entire half-century history of service as a passenger and special aircraft, crashed only once with the death of the crew. According to the feedback of flight technical personnel, the machine is very reliable and easy to pilot and operate.
    I think years 20 still serve. Why not ? All the same, there are modern materials that reduce its radar visibility, despite its rather impressive dimensions. And how softly its engines work. Fairy tale.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 3 June 2013 17: 24 New
      +1
      In principle, everything is possible. B-52s are still serving. Question in the stuffing
  • Zubr
    Zubr 3 June 2013 17: 17 New
    +1
    The trouble with these directors is how to turn on your barrel organ, you can’t close the car from the remote control from a long distance and the mobile Internet will go out .. smile
  • Odysseus
    Odysseus 3 June 2013 18: 28 New
    +1
    Oh, this is great news. New EW aircraft need like air! Here are just 5 planes, this is not enough ...
  • Black Colonel
    Black Colonel 3 June 2013 18: 51 New
    0
    Ay-yai-yai-yai-yay, what a useful invention! (Georges Miloslavsky. "Ivan Vasilievich Changes the Profession")
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  • Dimanrus86
    Dimanrus86 3 June 2013 18: 58 New
    0
    "Chop" Americans on a salad
  • Avlasevsky
    Avlasevsky 3 June 2013 19: 12 New
    0
    A comment slipped on the AS: was it really so small. Time left before the war?
  • ICT
    ICT 3 June 2013 20: 25 New
    +1
    an ordinary airplane producing jammers (I think there’s nothing radically new in the filling),
    and this conclusion but not one of the available modern aircraft met the requirements for flight performance, especially in terms of flight duration. was made even after the first Chechen one, though with respect to the VzKP
  • old man54
    old man54 3 June 2013 23: 52 New
    0
    The news is very good, positive! I am glad that the Defense Ministry and the government finally took up their heads a little, and not only took care of their personal accounts on caimans!
  • phantom359
    phantom359 4 June 2013 00: 35 New
    0
    And they could not find another platform, except for the ancient Il18? I watched this miracle at 88m and even then they were going to clean it, and throw all the new equipment onto the Tu204. Candy will not come out of feces. Il a good plane, but he ran back. like Lockheed Electra.
    1. aviamed90
      aviamed90 4 June 2013 22: 39 New
      0
      What does the old man IL-18 (22) not suit you?

      As the saying goes - "Small bug and smelly!" (no offense to the designer)

      It is economical, a decent time is kept in the air, 4 engines, the speed is small (and large and not required), the payload is also nothing .. What else?

      Typical EW aircraft! You can’t imagine any better! Or are there options?
      1. ICT
        ICT 4 June 2013 22: 54 New
        +1
        Quote: aviamed90
        What does the old man IL-18 (22) not suit you?


        it’s precisely that he’s an old man of Leo-Yevtsy who will finish him off when testing in the army, a dead machine will leave. (if it comes to that) they would do them at least from scratch. "done, so you can be completely tired
        1. aviamed90
          aviamed90 4 June 2013 23: 13 New
          0
          The Americans B-52 with 1955 in service. And it’s not an EW plane that flies, but a “strategist”. Only the filling and the engines change.
          What is worse than IL-18?
          1. phantom359
            phantom359 5 June 2013 13: 18 New
            0
            Quote: aviamed90
            The Americans B-52 with 1955 in service. And it’s not an EW plane that flies, but a “strategist”. Only the filling and the engines change.
            What is worse than IL-18?

            It is better that it passes the regulation as it should and is constantly being modernized and not used for commercial purposes. And how many IL18 remained in service? It has not been released for a long time, and even equipment in factories, probably. replaced.
      2. phantom359
        phantom359 5 June 2013 13: 15 New
        0
        Quote: aviamed90
        What does the old man IL-18 (22) not suit you?

        As the saying goes - "Small bug and smelly!" (no offense to the designer)

        It is economical, a decent time is kept in the air, 4 engines, the speed is small (and large and not required), the payload is also nothing .. What else?

        Typical EW aircraft! You can’t imagine any better! Or are there options?

        Of course. Tu204,214, An148, 158.
        1. aviamed90
          aviamed90 7 June 2013 21: 02 New
          0
          phantom359

          What are they produced in the series?
          Yes, the IL-18 is also not produced, but it is ALREADY manufactured.

          There will be decent aircraft in sufficient quantities modify the EW aircraft! Who is bothering?

          We proceed from what is available.
  • ICT
    ICT 4 June 2013 23: 26 New
    0
    Quote: aviamed90
    The Americans B-52 with 1955 in service. And it’s not an EW plane that flies, but a “strategist”. Only the filling and the engines change.


    Yes, it’s not a matter of principle the plane is really worthy, if only it were included in the series and did not stop on a single copy, like the Tu-204
  • Russ69
    Russ69 4 June 2013 23: 30 New
    +1
    Quote: aviamed90
    What does the old man IL-18 (22) not suit you? As they say - "Small bug and smelly!" (no offense to the designer)

    They would be brand new at least a couple of dozen ...
    The plane turned out successful, early they were removed from production.
    1. phantom359
      phantom359 6 June 2013 22: 43 New
      0
      Let's restore both Tu16 and Il2 in production. They were also successful cars. And the T34 will begin to produce. New cars are needed, not junk to upgrade.