The Battle of the Voronezh River in 1237: Possible Scenarios

9 231 101
The Battle of the Voronezh River in 1237: Possible Scenarios


Yuri and Batu: war or peace?


As part of the Russo-Golden Horde series, this article will discuss Batu's conquest of Ryazan. What was the principality's military potential, and was it capable of repelling the attack? Where did the second clash between Russo-Mongol forces, after the Battle of Kalka, take place, and was it truly a battle? Why, given the obvious numerical superiority of the enemy, did Grand Prince Yuri Ingvarevich of Ryazan withdraw his troops beyond the city walls? What were Batu's forces, and what tactics could his commanders have employed in battle? Let's discuss.



In the year 6745 (1237). In the twelfth year after the transfer of the miraculous icon from Korsun, the godless Tsar Batu, as stated in the "Tale of Batu's Destruction of Ryazan," came to the Russian land with a multitude of Tatar warriors and encamped on the Voronezh River near the Ryazan land. He sent dissolute ambassadors to Ryazan, to Grand Prince Yuri Ingvarevich of Ryazan, demanding a tenth share of everything: princes, all sorts of people, and everything else.

Explanation of the quote: in the previous article “The Chronicler's Mistake, or Why Guyuk Was the First Tsar to Subjugate Rus'" Batu's title, Zhuvan, is given, and the erroneousness of calling him "king" is explained.


The ancient settlement of Old Ryazan, with the ruins of the Borisoglebsky Cathedral visible in the photograph.

Now, on to the questions posed. Let's start with the Ryazan residents and their assessment of the enemy.

Yuri undoubtedly knew about the concentration of Mongol tumens on the border. He likely received reports from neighboring Vladimir, where a stream of refugees from Volga Bulgaria, routed during the campaigns of 1229, 1232, and 1236, had flocked. The first two campaigns failed to bring the nomads the success achieved after the all-Mongol campaign, the result of the decision taken at the kurultai in 1235.

It is more difficult to answer the question: did people in Ryazan, and at the same time in Vladimir, have a clear understanding of the tactics of the Mongol troops and did they understand how they differed from the Polovtsian ones they were familiar with?

Yes, the refugees said something, but in their shock, they were unlikely to reveal anything intelligible. The enemy's tactics and numbers should have been discussed with professionals. Their remains lay atop the walls and ashes of Bulgar cities, amid the weed-covered fields of his once-thriving emirate.

The invasion of Batu's army in winter came as a surprise to Yuri: the Russian princes were accustomed to the Polovtsian summer campaigns.

Moreover, the Ryazan guards, who apparently knew about the concentration of enemy troops, missed their advance directly into the borders of the principality, since the Mongols were advancing, covered by the forest and concentrated in the area of ​​the mouths of the Lesnoy and Polnoy rivers in Voronezh (modern Michurinsky district of the Tambov region).

Yuri responded by sending an embassy to Batu's camp, headed by his son Fyodor, and by taking military measures that seem illogical to us from the vantage point of the 21st century: he led his forces into the field against a more numerous enemy.

It seems that the reason for such a step should be sought in the prince's worldview, which fit into the European tradition of chivalry, within which it was customary, under certain circumstances, to meet the enemy in the field.

With a certain degree of caution, I admit elements of social and religious superiority in Yuri's motivation: a Christian army against wild nomads. The Polovtsians, for example, were called Hagarenes in the chronicles. Without going into details, I will note the derogatory nature of this epithet.

An integral part of the knightly corporation's military culture was an appeal to the Lord before battle and faith in His aid in confronting pagans or "infidels." Thus, Yuri's underestimation of the enemy was religious and psychological in nature.

Another nuance: the Middle Ages witnessed relatively few battles, since within the knightly worldview, they were perceived as divine judgment. I'll suggest that the final battle, in the prince's worldview, would have occurred if Feodor's negotiations with Batu had failed. And where else would that be if not in the field? In other words, we're faced with the very circumstances I mentioned a few paragraphs earlier.


Yuri Ingvarevich on the lithograph by B.A. Chorikov 1846, reflecting ideas about the Mongols and Russian princes of educated Russian society of the 19th century

I will also put forward a more prosaic hypothesis about Yuri’s withdrawal of the army beyond the city walls: the same mistake that was later made by his Vladimir namesake, who withdrew part of his forces to the Sit River, perhaps hoping to settle the matter with Batu peacefully.

In other words, both princes lacked a clear plan of action, seeing their primary objective as preventing the Mongols from entering their borders. However, diplomatic solutions were also possible.

The prince's textbook response to Batu's demand that he acknowledge his dependence on the Mongols and pay a tithe is legendary, especially in light of Feodor's embassy to Batu bearing gifts. But the prince's son's response is similar in content to the legendary one: "When you defeat us, then you will rule over our women."

Of course, the author of the story accuses Batu of treachery. Perhaps that was the case. But could Fyodor, having violated his father's instructions, including in a fit of anger, have come into conflict with Batu, paying with his life? I believe such a scenario cannot be ruled out.

As for the source itself.

How reliable are the reports in the Ryazan novel? To what extent, asks historian A. V. Mayorov, can they correspond historical realities of the mid-13th century? Several attempts to find answers to these and similar questions have so far yielded no convincing results. In modern literature, a generally skeptical attitude toward the original accounts of "The Tale of the Sacking of Ryazan" prevails.

In turn, Yuri Vladimirsky, as stated in the article “In memory of L.N. Gumilyov", sought to avoid military conflict with the Mongols and even paid some semblance of tribute. A.V. Mayorov's arguments for this are presented in the aforementioned material.

There is another aspect to the situation under consideration: from the second half of the 12th century, the Vladimir-Suzdal princes sought to place the Ryazan princes in vassal dependence, and, as the medievalist D.G. Khrustalev believes, by 1237 they had succeeded.

Accordingly, the Ryazan prince's well-known appeal to the Vladimir prince for assistance can be interpreted as a desire to receive instructions on further action and an attempt to shift the burden of settling relations with Batu to his overlord. The Mongol embassy sent from Ryazan to Vladimir also supports this hypothesis.

In general, the traditional version about the Ryazan people's unwillingness to submit to Batu is called into question by D.G. Khrustalev:

The Ryazan people, who were effectively vassals of Suzdal, were required to act within the framework of their overlord's policies, that is, to yield, pacify, and accommodate the Tatars. Yuri Ingvarevich, likely meeting the envoys outside the city, which could have been considered a friendly gesture, immediately agreed to Batu's demands and allowed his troops to move for the winter from Nuzla (presumably a settlement on the border of the Ryazan Principality – I.Kh.) to Voronezh, where they would await the Grand Duke's envoys. Since Ryazan believed that it could not independently (without the consent of its overlord) conclude a peace treaty with the Mongols, it sent envoys to Vladimir, where important foreign policy decisions were made.

Let me emphasize that this is not an unfounded version of events, but it is still one of them.

In science, there is a point of view about the desire of the opposing side to avoid bloodshed:

The only alternative to military subjugation was voluntary recognition of the Great Khan's authority. In the case of Northeastern Rus', writes A.V. Mayorov, the peaceful alternative appears to have been preferable for the Mongols, and they initially intended to pursue it, preserving their forces for the war against the Cumans and their main ally in the West, the Kingdom of Hungary. This explains the peace proposals made by Batu to the princes of Ryazan and Vladimir-Suzdal.

One version is that Batu was driven to war with Ryazan by a quarrel with Fyodor, with Vladimir – by Vsevolod’s forced entry into the battle near Kolomna on the side of the Ryazan prince Roman Ingvarevich, Yuri’s brother, who owned the city.

The Prince of Vladimir intended to bring Kolomna under his control and therefore sent his eldest son there, not at all to wage war against Batu. For some reason, Vsevolod sided with Roman, possibly after being attacked by the Mongols, who failed to recognize that they were not facing an enemy, and engaged in combat, which escalated into a battle.

Thus, as a hypothesis: both sons violated their fathers' instructions aimed at resolving the problem of relations with the Mongols through negotiations.

Have there been any cases of peace negotiations ending positively? Yes.

In the same year of 1236, writes A.V. Mayorov, Atabeg Avag, one of the rulers of the Georgian Kingdom, submitted to the Mongols. This was preceded by his peace negotiations with the conquerors, during which he made demands similar to those presented to the Sultan of Rum (who also submitted – I.Kh.). When, after much hesitation, Avag finally agreed to submit to the Mongols, he was brought to their leader, Noyon Chormagan. Avag swore allegiance to him, after which the Mongols began to regard him as an ally. A feast was held in Avag's honor, and Chormagan "ordered all his troops not to besiege the fortresses and cities belonging to him. And his country breathed a sigh of relief; many captives were released for his sake." Chormagan returned Avag's entire country to him and, moreover, established an unbreakable friendship with him. And, taking Avag and his entire army with him, he marched on the city of Ani."

In response to the potential criticism that the author believes the Russian princes should have surrendered without a fight, my goal is to attempt to reconstruct the logic behind the Ryazan prince's decision-making, not to evaluate it.

Now, regarding the numbers on both sides. Regarding Batu's forces, I share the view that they numbered 25–30 warriors. One must also take into account the total number of horses in the army, approximately 50, plus draft animals. It seems to me that it would have been simply impossible to manage or feed a larger army.

In any case, this number, multiplied by the colossal combat experience and skill of the commanders, above all the greatest of them, Subedei, provided the Mongols with a total advantage over any army from the Ural Mountains to Gibraltar.

On the issue of the number of Ryazan troops


The size of the Ryazan army, as well as the Russian principalities as a whole, is more complex. The problem is as follows:

Despite the emergence of new scholarly works, writes historian A.V. Zelenov, and the clear desire of scholars to advance the study of Rus' history, there are objective reasons why estimating the size of Russian armies is either extremely difficult or downright impossible: the problem lies in the state of the source base itself. This problem primarily concerns the pre-Mongol period. After all, scholars often rely on chronicles, a very specific historical source, for this source base. Chronicles are primarily a religious and literary work, and only secondarily a factual and historical one.

The figures cited by chroniclers uninitiated by military matters are symbolic and should not be taken seriously.

It is also necessary to take into account:

A. V. Zelenov notes that no full-text official data, diplomatic correspondence, charters, or documentary materials have survived to this day, which would allow for a comprehensive assessment of military affairs (training, conscription, and personnel) in pre-Mongol Rus'. Birch bark manuscripts are quite patchy in their geographical and temporal coverage. The accounts of medieval travelers and geographers are extremely fragmentary and insufficiently informative.

The aforementioned researcher nevertheless attempts to make a rough estimate of the military strength of the Russian princes. In his view, the combined population of the principalities on the eve of the Mongol invasion was approximately 2 million people.

In attempting to determine the troop strength of some of them, A. V. Zelenov relies on the approximate, pardon the tautology, populations of the cities. Smolensk is used as an example, with a population of 10–11, according to the medievalist V. A. Kuchkin's estimate, shared by A. V. Zelenov.

Based on this, A. V. Zelenov writes:

Even assuming a hypothetical figure of 1–5% (the highest, most unlikely estimate) of the urban population capable of providing itself with weapons, Smolensk could have fielded around 100–500 warriors (i.e., cavalry). The other cities of the Smolensk lands had even fewer. Similarly, Kyiv had up to 500–2500 warriors, Novgorod up to 300–1500, and the rest had fewer or much fewer.

Old Ryazan had a population of approximately 8–10, while Pronsk and Murom had significantly fewer. Accordingly, I believe the principality's capital could muster around 400 mounted warriors, while the Murom and Pronsk populations could muster around 50, considering that these were not the wealthiest cities in Rus'.


Armor of a Russian warrior. Photo by the author from the Ryazan Historical Museum.

These are normal figures for the Middle Ages, not just in Russia but throughout Europe as a whole. It's enough to read the work of the eminent French medievalist François Contamine, "War in the Middle Ages."

Historian A. A. Fetisov, who studies the warrior culture of pre-Mongol Rus', cites similar figures, citing Ibn Fadlan:

An Arab traveler writes that along with the king of the Rus, “there are always 400 men from among the heroes, his companions.”

Yes, the period is earlier, but one must take into account the relatively closed nature of the military corporation in Rus' on the eve of the Mongol invasion. Entry into it was difficult, including for material reasons: weapons and war horses were expensive.

While the indicated number of princes was sufficient for internecine wars, which were expressed not so much in battles - the famous Battle of Lipica in 1216 was, after all, an exception, that very judgment of God - as in the devastation of the enemy's territory, the undermining, in modern terms, of his economic base.

The latter happened regularly in the lands of the Ryazan Principality:

“Ancient Russian history does not know of a more brutal and bloody internecine struggle,” writes D.G. Khrustalev, “than that among the Ryazan princes.”

It's worth noting that no foot soldiers, warriors, or other militias participated in the campaigns; at most, they could be used to defend cities. Medieval warfare was the domain of professionals, which was the weakness of agricultural states in their confrontation with nomads, where every man capable of riding a horse and wielding a bow was a warrior.

A separate topic: the armament, organization of the Mongolian army, its supply system, etc. These should be discussed separately.

The only thing I'll note is that among the currently fashionable illustrations of Mongol warriors, one can see heavily armed ones. However, their percentage relative to the lightly armed is difficult to determine.

The question of the presence of specialized armored units in the structure of the Mongolian army, writes Kazakh military historian A.K. Kushkumbayev, which included warriors, as a rule, armed with heavy protective armor (armor, chain mail, helmets), continues to be a controversial issue in military history in recent decades.

On the question of the Mongol tactics in the battle with the Ryazan army


What tactical maneuvers might Batu's army have employed at Voronezh? Unfortunately, we know virtually nothing about the details of the battle. However, we will attempt to reconstruct its possible scenarios in general terms.

One of the Mongol army formations was called the "bull horn," characteristic of nomads in general. Its essence is as follows. According to A.K. Kushkambaev, the army's flanks had striking protrusions extended far forward to envelop the enemy's flanks. This formation truly resembled a bull's horns. I believe, in some sense, it could have provoked the enemy to attack the Mongol center.

Perhaps this is what Prince Vsevolod did at the Battle of Kolomna in February 1238, when—unprecedented for the Mongols—one of the Chingisid cavalry, Kulhan, perished. That is, the powerful spear charge of the Vladimir cavalry allowed them to break through to the center of the Mongol line—perhaps even pierce it, cutting through like a knife through butter—where the aforementioned Chingisid was located. But then the "horns" did their job, enveloping the flanks of the Vladimir cavalry—if Vsevolod's attack had any flanking cover at all—encircling and destroying his army.

However, the "bull's horn" made sense in open-field combat. Yuri, awaiting news from Fyodor, may have taken up some sort of fortified position.

And in this case, the conquerors could carry out flanking maneuvers against the enemy by forming a “goose wing” formation.

One of the Chinese sources tells about the war between the Mongols and the Jin Empire.

Thus, writes A.K. Kushkumbaev, according to Gan-mu (we are talking about a source from the end of the 12th century – I.Kh.), the Mongol detachments, having discovered the Jin army in front of them, which had taken up defensive positions, “lined up like goose wings”, having completed a maneuver, went to the rear of the Jurchen cavalry.

The description of the battle is interesting because it mentions the Jurchens occupying a defensive position, outflanked by the Mongols. This is where Mongol tactics differ from those of the Cumans. The latter, after all, also used outflanking tactics, but when confronted with defensive positions, they preferred not to engage in combat.

According to the Nikon Chronicle: "The princes fled to their cities." Was this the result of a defeat or a breakout from encirclement?

The second scenario is also possible, and I have drawn attention to it in connection with the tactics used by the Mongols in the battle with the Hungarians on the Sajo River on April 11, 1241:

The Mongols, having surrounded and exhausted the Hungarian warriors with attacks, forced them into a disorderly flight. Meanwhile, the Tatars, writes A.K. Kushkumbaev, quoting lines from the historian Utemish-haji's "Genghis-name," "seemed to open a passage for them and allow them to escape, but they did not attack them, but followed them from both sides, preventing them from turning back or forth. Then they attacked from all sides and destroyed almost the entire Hungarian army."

Finally, another tactical maneuver was employed by the invaders on the Sit River on March 4, 1238, when one of their best commanders, Batu Burundai, brilliantly maneuvered to the flank of Yuri Vsevolodovich's army, which probably hadn't even had time to form up. Presumably, the Ryazan troops were defeated in a similar manner.

Prince Yuri and other Ryazan princes, writes military historian V.V. Kargalov, managed to gather an army and, without waiting for the forces from Vladimir and Chernigov, advanced toward the Voronezh River. They wanted to reinforce the few garrisons on the border fortified lines and prevent the Mongol-Tatars from penetrating deeper into the Ryazan land. However, the Ryazan regiments did not manage to reach their fortified lines: the hordes of Batu Khan swiftly invaded the Ryazan Principality. Somewhere "near the borders of Ryazan," the first battle with the conquerors took place.

In short, there are cautious grounds to believe that the Ryazan army was attacked either on the march or during a halt and did not have time to line up for battle.


The Chapel of St. Paraskeva on the site of the Tolpino settlement in the Korablinsky District of the Ryazan Region. To the right of the chapel flows the Pronya River, along whose banks Batu's tumens advanced. In the 12th century, the Nerinsk Fortress, part of the Pronya Principality, was built here. The fortress was one of the first to encounter the Mongols; after heroic resistance by its defenders, it was captured and razed.

Archaeologist V.P. Darkevich, who specialized in excavations in Old Ryazan, also writes that the battle at Voronezh could have unfolded according to the scenario of the battle at the City:

Probably, the same thing happened here as later in the battle on the Siti River, a tributary of the Mologa, where the Vladimir-Suzdal troops were defeated.

V.P. Darkevich also presents arguments in favor of the destruction of the main forces of the professional Ryazan army outside the city walls:

The absence (in Old Ryazan – I.Kh.) of finds of swords and helmets – expensive weapons The presence of professional warriors indicates that the main defenders (of the principality's capital – I.Kh.) were the "voi" – the people's militia. The druzhina – the elite core of the prince's bodyguards – was greatly depleted after the Battle of Voronezh.

Of the versions of the battle presented, the one presented by V.V. Kargalov and V.P. Darkevich seems to me to be the most probable.

To summarize: neither the Ryazan nor Vladimir princes apparently had a coherent strategy against the Mongols. I believe Yuri Ingvarevich was awaiting news from Vladimir with instructions on further action until he was attacked by the enemy.

After the defeat at Voronezh, the prince had no illusions about Batu's intentions. He fought his last battle within the walls of his hometown, captured on the sixth day. The scale of the destruction was so total that Ryazan never recovered, and the capital of the principality was moved to Pereslavl-Ryazansky.

References
Darkevich V. P. Journey to Ancient Ryazan: Notes of an Archaeologist. – Ryazan: “New Time”, 1993
Izmailov I.L. Defenders of Iskander's Wall. Kazan, 2008
Kargalov V.V. Mongol-Tatar invasion of Rus'. M., “Enlightenment”, 1966
Zelenov A.V. The problem of the number of Russian troops in pre-Mongol times / "PARABELLUM novum". No. 19 (52). St. Petersburg, 2023 "PARABELLUM novum". No. 19 (52). St. Petersburg, 2023
Kushkumbaev A.K. Military-tactical structure of the Chingizid armies of the 13th – 15th centuries. // // History of historical and military records No. 1/2016 Part 2. The era of Old Russia. pp. 55 – 82
Mayorov A. V. Women, Diplomacy, and War: Russian Princes in Negotiations with Batu on the Eve of the Mongol Invasion // Steps. Vol. 7. No. 3. 2021. Pp. 124–199
"The Tale of the Destruction of Ryazan by Batu": translated from Old Russian / D. S. Likhachev // Reader on Old Russian Literature / compiled by M. E. Fedorova, T. A. Sumnikova. - Moscow, 1969. - Pp. 80 - 88
Tropin N.A. In the South-East of Rus': Chernigov-Ryazan borderland in the 9th-15th centuries:
textbook. – Yelets: Yelets State University named after I.A. Bunin, 2019
Khrustalev D.G. Rus' from the Invasion to the "Yoke" (30s-40s). - St. Petersburg, "Eurasia", 2008
Fetisov A.A. Druzhina culture of Ancient Rus.// The oldest states of Eastern Europe: 2010: Prerequisites and paths of formation of the Old Russian state. Moscow, 2012. Pp. 406–436
Makarov D.A. The legal and political significance of the medieval squad
101 comment
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +2
    27 August 2026 04: 29
    The composition of Batu's marching army raises questions... who and what percentage made up the hodgepodge of his ranks.
    And how Batu maintained discipline among the motley nomadic warriors with their own manners, habits, and incentives.
    1. 0
      27 August 2026 10: 17
      And how Batu maintained discipline among the motley nomadic warriors with their own manners, habits, and incentives
      - very simple - by taking hostages, Batu's warriors betrayed him on campaign, they chickened out - the whole family was slaughtered...
    2. 0
      28 August 2026 00: 34
      And how Batu maintained discipline among the motley nomadic warriors with their own manners, habits, and incentives.
      Judging by the results, he handled it with flying colors.
  2. +1
    27 August 2026 04: 39
    Quote: The same LYOKHA
    And how Batu maintained discipline among the motley nomadic warriors with their own manners, habits, and incentives.
    With the help of carrots and sticks. As usual.
  3. 0
    27 August 2026 05: 31
    Quote: Schneeberg
    With the help of carrots and sticks. As usual.

    what You can find out more details.
    1. 0
      27 August 2026 07: 09
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      You can find out more details
      Yes, it's possible. It's an age-old way to get people to do what's necessary. If you do well, you get a carrot. If you do poorly, you get a stick! It's a pedagogical method of combining reward and punishment to stimulate biomass, where the stick symbolizes punishment, and the carrot, reward.
  4. +3
    27 August 2026 05: 40
    What's interesting here is something else: more or less realistic estimates of Batu's army are around 40-45 thousand. Each had at least two horses, plus some baggage train. Total—around 100 thousand horsemen, most likely more. The question is: what did this whole crowd feed on during the campaign against Rus'? After all, it took place in winter, and even in summer, there's not much feed for steppe horses in our forests. They're not accustomed to eating straw, and horses in northern Rus' aren't exactly plentiful, meaning a corresponding amount of feed is stored for them for the winter. The villages aren't large, a maximum of five households. How much food can you take there? Besides, you still have to find it, which is no easy task in our winter forests. You can't carry much hay in a saddlebag, only enough for a week at most. The same goes for a baggage train—the horses pull it, and they'll eat everything you carry. Yes, pushing large convoys along our winter roads is quite a task... The cities are not particularly large either, and most of them burned down, meaning the winter food supplies along with them.

    Plus, the Mongols almost always managed to achieve surprise, demonstrating a remarkable knowledge of the routes through forested Rus'. Where did this come from? Even simply crossing frozen rivers isn't easy; we have plenty of them; it's hard to figure out which one to take to get to the right place. And an unshod horse moves across the ice without any enthusiasm. Basically, you have to know our roads, and know them well. Spies from, say, merchants, won't suffice.

    All in all, it was a strange campaign, very strange indeed. To plunge a large steppe cavalry force into the Russian winter forest—it's your choice, but the decision was highly questionable. However, it was made and successfully carried out! How?
    1. +5
      27 August 2026 06: 42
      What typical military clashes occurred during that period? For example, the Battle on the Ice, which involved approximately 35-40 knights, as well as 150 knechts (combat servants) and 100 Estonian mercenaries. The opposing side had a similar force. However, we're talking about hundreds of men. By uniting with neighboring principalities, it would have been possible to muster several thousand warriors. However, it should be noted that relations between the princes were complex, and they often used the Mongols to resolve territorial disputes. Under such conditions, forming a united front against the Mongols was extremely difficult. Moreover, according to the most conservative estimates, the Mongol army numbered 20-25 thousand men, making the tactics of the small Russian army against such superior forces practically pointless. It's not surprising that Batu's troops were able to reach the Adriatic Sea, as there was no single force capable of stopping such an army.

      As for Mongol tactics, they didn't move as a whole army at once. They would approach a common rallying point via different routes, then unite for a combined attack.

      At that time, most cities in Rus' were located along rivers. Whether you wanted to or not, you were bound to reach a city. Moreover, all trade was conducted by water. Batu's Mongol army attacked along rivers, which, incidentally, solved the horse's water shortage problem quite well. Provisions were more difficult, as they had to haul a huge supply train and rely on plundering local towns and villages to replenish it.
      It was also easy to learn about the location of settlements in Rus' from Polovtsian traders who regularly roamed along these same rivers.
      1. +2
        27 August 2026 17: 21
        Quote: kebeskin
        Well, what were the typical military clashes that took place during that period?

        There was the Battle of Lipitskaya, there was the campaign against Kalka...
        in both places the armies were clearly more than 10,000 people.
    2. +4
      27 August 2026 07: 01
      Quote: paul3390
      Whether to push a large steppe cavalry into the Russian winter forest is your choice, but the decision is rather dubious.

      That's also true... however, as further west, "maintaining" huge masses of horses is quite a task and requires immeasurable resources; these aren't the boundless eastern steppes where half-wild horses feed themselves, and there was still a limited number of purebred, select horses for the nobility
      1. +3
        27 August 2026 07: 10
        Another question: why the hell did Batu need the northern forest zone of Rus'? The region, frankly, isn't particularly rich compared to the south; strategically, it's a dead end; there's simply nothing of value beyond us. But such a campaign would be a huge hassle; they must have lost a lot of horses alone. It's doubtful the spoils would cover the costs—this isn't China or Khorezm. Then again, the forests mean it's unsuitable for steppe dwellers.
        The theory that this was to secure the flanks for a campaign in Europe also doesn't make much sense. I seriously doubt the northern principalities would rush headlong to help the southern principalities, much less Europe. Why would they? And how many troops would they be able to send on a long campaign—five thousand? Ten thousand at full capacity? Certainly not more. It's not much of a threat, no matter how you look at it... It would have been easier to agree to keep their noses in where they weren't wanted.
        1. +2
          27 August 2026 07: 18
          Quote: paul3390
          Frankly, the region isn't particularly rich compared to the south. Strategically, it's a dead end; there's simply nothing of value beyond us. But such a campaign would be a real pain in the ass.

          That's almost what I'm talking about, in the sense that you're absolutely right... "it's strange"@
        2. +6
          27 August 2026 07: 42
          The question remains: what the hell did Batu need in the northern forest zone of Rus'? The region, frankly speaking, isn't particularly rich compared to the south; strategically, it's a dead end; there's simply nothing of value beyond us.


          The most adequate assumption on this matter is that of Yu. V. Krivosheev: the Mongol campaign into the territory of northeastern Rus' was connected with the fact that they were trying to secure their right flank during their march to the “last sea.”
          But southern and western Rus', as well as the nomadic camps of the “historical enemies,” the Kipchaks, lay directly in the path of the Mongol army’s advance.
          Incidentally, the author relies on relatively secondary works, without using such fundamental works as Yu. V. Krivosheev's "Mongols and Rus'," which reveals many of the processes and events associated with the invasion.
          In particular, there would be no need to guess about the size of the army.
          1. +2
            27 August 2026 07: 50
            There's also a conspiracy theory. According to it, Batu wasn't just invited to this campaign, but also ensured its success. Who? Those who benefited most from these events... and who later rose to high positions under him, clearly out of rank...
            1. +7
              27 August 2026 08: 11
              Paul,
              "Theories", in the scientific sense, must be supported by data in historical sources, otherwise it is... some kind of fabrication.
              There one can assume that it was provoked by aliens, the Mongol invasion was requested by the Yem and Sum tribes, or the Zavolochskaya Chud, who did not want to pay tribute to Rus', perhaps the Order of the Swordsmen, or the English King Henry III: the English "were doing harm" to Rus' from time before time. laughing

              Yours!
              1. +1
                27 August 2026 09: 24
                Well, you're kidding... So, in your opinion, can we safely erase all pre-written human history? There are no historical sources from time immemorial? Or can you actually cite the chronicles of Neanderthals or erectus? Heck, no more than a dozen difficult-to-interpret inscriptions remain from the first pharaohs—does that somehow prevent us from constructing theories about the origins of Egypt?
                1. +2
                  27 August 2026 11: 36
                  What's more, no more than a dozen difficult-to-interpret inscriptions remain from the first pharaohs - does this somehow hinder the construction of theories about the beginning of Egypt?

                  If they are close to the written data, there is no problem. good
              2. +5
                27 August 2026 09: 35
                Good morning!
                Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                "theory"

                Only this "theory" can clearly explain why some cities were destroyed while others were left untouched, how the Mongol army was supplied in winter, how it navigated the terrain, how it knew about the movements of Russian troops, and why the princes did not unite, as on the Kalka River.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. +3
                  27 August 2026 11: 46
                  Good morning!
                  Over two hundred years of historiography on this matter, we know everything, or we know those points that are controversial.
                  Even in school textbooks, of course, given the level of development of children, everything is written adequately.
                  BUT...if a person learned about the Mongol-Tatar invasion yesterday, for him, of course, everything will be new, just like if he learned that the earth is round, and that the moon is not a pancake, but a satellite of the earth.
                  Those who skipped school but are still able to master a modern gadget and type something on the keyboard also love these "paradoxical" questions: scientists don't understand anything.
                  It's even more difficult if a person has bipolar disorder, or even prelogical thinking, then even if you personally brought him a letter from Batu, he will still think that the "truth" is hidden in the basements of the Vatican libraries:
                  The Truth Is Out There
                  1. +2
                    27 August 2026 13: 44
                    Exactly!! Especially when, in response to any suggestion, someone inevitably demands that very personal letter from Batu, in which he details his devious plans. Preferably, one certified with the Great Khagan's personal seal as a sign of approval...
                    1. +2
                      27 August 2026 16: 09
                      Т
                      In person!! Especially when a person demands that very personal letter from Batu for every suggestion

                      good good good
                  2. +1
                    27 August 2026 18: 08
                    Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                    Even in school textbooks, of course, for the level of development of children, everything is written adequately

                    For me, the key questions are the size of the Mongol army; the size of the forces that Rus' could field (ideally, broken down by principality); and who could have guaranteed Batu that Rus' would not act as a united front, as it did before the Battle of the Kalka River.
                    If there is literature where these issues are explained, I would be grateful for a link.
                    1. +4
                      28 August 2026 08: 28
                      Good morning,
                      good question.
                      From the latest professional works of R. P. Khrapachevsky The Mongol Army during the Conquest of Ancient Rus / M.: Quadriga, 2011. - but there, in my opinion, the numbers are extremely overstated.
                      1. +2
                        28 August 2026 09: 11
                        Good morning!
                        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                        R. P. Khrapachevsky's Army of the Mongols during the Conquest of Ancient Rus'

                        Thank you!
                      2. 0
                        30 August 2026 17: 30
                        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                        From the latest professional works of R. P. Khrapachevsky The Mongol army during the period of the conquest of Ancient Rus' / M.: Quadriga, 2011

                        Good afternoon!
                        Found another good job.
                        Sabitov Zh.M. About the size of the Mongol army
                        in the Western campaign (1235-1242) // ISSUES OF HISTORY AND ARCHAEOLOGY OF WESTERN KAZAKHSTAN. No. 1/2010

                        We estimate the size of the Mongol army in the west
                        a campaign of approximately 60 thousand people at the beginning of the campaign, 40 thousand people after the departure of Mengu and Guyuk to Mongolia (taking into account the losses of the Mongols in battles with the Russian principalities, the Kipchaks-Polovtsians, Bulgars, Bashkirs, Ases, Mordvins, etc. + the withdrawal of troops from their uluses by Mengu and Guyuk after the end of the campaign to Rus') and about 30 thousand during the campaign in Hungary
                      3. 0
                        31 August 2026 15: 55
                        Thanks for the information!!!!
            2. +4
              27 August 2026 08: 53
              It's clear who. Prince Yaroslav Vsevolodovich. He was a real bastard, having orchestrated the civil war of 1216. It didn't work out that way. He brought the Mongols, then showed them the way to Sit. It was important to him to slaughter Yuri's entire family so he could reign and rule over everything himself. That's why Novgorod wasn't touched.
              1. +2
                27 August 2026 09: 35
                Exactly. His subsequent biography raises a host of questions. For example, who did Batu send to Karakorum to install Guyuk as khanate? Yaroslav! A minor prince from the middle of nowhere, not even a Genghis Khan, let alone a Mongol! What nonsense—Batu had few brothers, let alone any noble Mongols. And yet Yaroslav was accepted in Karakorum. And if Plano Carpini's version is true, that he was poisoned there personally by the Great Khan's mother, Doregen, it's simply mind-blowing. Why would she poison him? What danger could he possibly pose to her? Moreover, she only had to blink an eye, and such an insignificant figure would have been slaughtered right outside the yurt, if she didn't want to soil the carpets. In the eyes of the Mongols, he's a nobody. But no—she's poisoning him, that is, treating him as an equal, a dangerous equal! Why is this all of a sudden?
                1. -1
                  27 August 2026 13: 37
                  After this, only his descendants ruled in Northeast Rus'. Therefore, all documents have been carefully sanitized.
                  1. 0
                    27 August 2026 13: 40
                    And were there any documents, anyway? People aren't usually inclined to document such nasty behavior. Why bother? They made a verbal agreement with Batu, shook hands, and that's it. There's no point in throwing them away later, and it's extremely dangerous for them.

                    It's the same as today, for example, demanding a receipt for a bribe.
                2. +1
                  27 August 2026 13: 45
                  This must be viewed through the prism of Batu's looming conflict with Karakorum. He considered himself strong enough to ignore the central government. That's why he sent such an insignificant ambassador to them, to show them how he controlled them. And by poisoning him (for executing an ambassador isn't quite Yasa-style), Karakorum sent Batu a message: "This is what happens to your ambassadors."
          2. +2
            27 August 2026 07: 53
            There's no need to even speculate about the numbers—northern Rus' couldn't possibly feed more than a hundred thousand horses in winter... No way. That means 40-45 thousand mugs at most. More likely, 35-40 thousand.
            1. +3
              27 August 2026 11: 32
              Most likely - 35-40 in reality

              Probably less. Otherwise, this isn't a campaign of conquest with diplomatic maneuvering, but rather some kind of primal survival. The search that the nomads unleashed in northeastern Rus' was easily within the power of 15-20 thousand horsemen.
              1. +1
                27 August 2026 17: 17
                Quote: Aleks
                The search that the nomads carried out in North-Eastern Rus' was quite within the power of 15-20 thousand horse heads.

                But on one condition: Rus' will not act as a united front!
    3. +1
      27 August 2026 09: 42
      Quote: paul3390
      Whether to plunge a large steppe cavalry force into the Russian winter forest is entirely up to you, but the decision seems highly dubious. However, it was made and successfully carried out!

      It's easy, you've painted a modern picture of the landscape, but the rise of the Mongols and their expansion were associated with drastic climate changes—aridization. Southern Rus' turned into Mongolia. What northern Mongolia looks like today: no snow, steppe, copses, shrubs along the river valleys. No one in Mongolia feeds horses hay; they feed themselves. When I visited Mongolia, I understood how they came to Rus' at full gallop. That ended later, and so did the Mongols, with the exception of a few places where such landscapes remain. The Kalmyks are an example.
      1. +2
        27 August 2026 09: 54
        I've never heard of there being a steppe in the northern Russian principalities in the 13th century... belay what

        In Mongolia, they don't store hay for the winter for an obvious reason: although it's cold, there's little snow there. Horses can dig up withered grass from under the snow themselves. Here, the situation is completely different. A horse won't dig through our snowdrifts, especially if there's been even one thaw and ice forms under the snow. If you read anything about the Polovtsian economy, you'll see that they were the ones who stocked up. Along the route of their future spring migrations. And it was there, in the spring, that the Russian princes usually caught them, because their route was known, and the horses weakened considerably over the winter on the meager forage.
        1. 0
          27 August 2026 10: 03
          I've long wondered how much it would have cost the Mongols to bring siege weapons to Rus'. They couldn't be manufactured locally in a reasonable amount of time. So they had to be dismantled and transported from far away. And the stones for the stone throwers had to be transported from far away, too. Essentially, that meant a huge convoy, which they still had to somehow maneuver through our impassable terrain.
          And, an important detail: the Mongols didn't shoe their horses. This is relevant to the issue of winter travel along rivers.
          1. +4
            28 August 2026 06: 42
            I've long wondered how much it would have cost the Mongols to bring siege weapons to Rus'. They couldn't be manufactured locally in a reasonable amount of time. So they had to be dismantled and transported from far away.

            It is enough to have specialists in the army, and key elements and mechanisms of throwing machines in the convoy.
            1. 0
              28 August 2026 09: 07
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              and in the convoy are the key elements and mechanisms of the throwing machines

              What do you propose next?
              Building cars from raw wood? No, that's not possible. And drying wood isn't a quick process.
              1. +3
                28 August 2026 10: 25
                Building cars from raw wood? No, that's not possible. And drying wood isn't a quick process.

                Before discussing this topic, it is necessary to at least understand how Chinese battering rams differed from European ones.
                For fingers, horsehair, sinew, and individual bronze or iron parts were more important. The quality of the wood wasn't crucial, not like ships.
                However, even eminent scientists have made these same mistakes. A classic example is the creation of replicas of ancient Greek and Roman throwing machines in France during the reign of Napoleon III.
                1. +1
                  28 August 2026 11: 22
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  Before discussing this topic, it is necessary to at least understand how Chinese battering rams differed from European ones.

                  There's an article about Chinese throwing machines: https://xlegio.ru/throwing-machines/asia/chinese-pre-gunpowder-artillery/consruction-and-some-characteristics-of-chinese-throwing-engines.html

                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  If on the fingers, horsehair, tendons and individual parts made of bronze or iron were more important.

                  What specific type of machines are you talking about? Are they mentioned in the article mentioned above?
          2. 0
            28 August 2026 08: 18
            And just imagine how to water so many horses at once when they stop. In winter, the rivers are frozen, the ice is half a meter thick?
            1. +2
              28 August 2026 10: 26
              Quote: ALARI
              And just imagine how to water so many horses at once when they stop. In winter, the rivers are frozen, the ice is half a meter thick?

              I wonder how they watered livestock in Rus'?
              1. +2
                28 August 2026 10: 47
                Water. Every yard has a well and maybe ten livestock. And here's a detachment of 1000 men and 3000 horses marching down the river. They reach the shore. And then what? A horse needs about 40 liters of water a day, and not all at once, but three times. How many meters of ice should there be every day, and not just once a day? A horse drinks several times a day. hi .
                1. 0
                  28 August 2026 11: 37
                  You ask good questions.
                  Plus, the wagon horses needed to be fed. If the horses were sent out to forage for grass under the snow, how would they be able to haul the wagon train? Taking supplies from the local population was impossible; there were no villages in northeastern Rus' back then. So, were they supposed to carry the forage themselves?
                  1. +1
                    28 August 2026 12: 00
                    And there's another very unpleasant issue: winter company with sub-zero temperatures. Sleeping in the snow is so dangerous you can catch a cold. You still need to stay warm; in the steppe, you can pitch a yurt with heating. But here they don't write about that; they rely on speed, meaning no yurts. If it were with yurts, there would be no speed at all. They're like terminators there, and the horses practically eat rocks and ice.
                    1. +1
                      28 August 2026 15: 26
                      Quote: ALARI
                      You still need to stay warm. You can pitch a heated yurt in the steppe. They don't mention that here, though. They rely on speed, so no yurts.

                      A Mongol won't freeze in the steppe, the Mongols themselves told me this, Mongolian yurts - Ger in Mongolian - are heavy, twice as heavy as others, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, etc., definitely without yurts.
                2. +3
                  28 August 2026 20: 35
                  The Vladimir-Suzdal Principality was home to approximately two million people. Roughly 5-10 people per household. Roughly 300,000 households. Each household had livestock, which also needed to be fed and watered. Moreover, unlike the steppe horse, our cows and ponies weren't trained to forage for food themselves.
        2. +3
          27 August 2026 10: 08
          Quote: paul3390
          Our situation is completely different. A horse can't dig through our snowdrifts, especially if there's been even a single thaw and ice has formed under the snow.

          Before the Mongols came to Rus', it turned into Mongolia, sharp climatic changes - aridization.
          And you are looking at the modern climate, that’s why you can’t understand.
          I'm a specialist, a geological engineer. I've traveled the entire steppe belt from Mongolia to Montenegro, and over 40 years I've understood how the landscape has changed. Moreover, I've always been interested in history and have worked professionally with archaeologists, providing them with geological conclusions.
          1. +2
            27 August 2026 12: 00
            Here, we mustn't forget about the so-called "medieval climatic optimum" or "medieval warm period," which lasted from approximately 950 to 1250 and later. The climate was significantly milder.
            1. -1
              27 August 2026 12: 11
              Quote: Sergey Tkach
              The Medieval Warm Period, or Medieval Climatic Optimum, lasted from approximately 950 to 1250 and beyond.

              The Middle Ages' optimal period ended before 1250, which may be true for Western Europe, where the Mongols never reached. The rise and expansion of the Mongols is linked to the end of the optimal period and the onset of aridization, which occurred in the late 12th and early 13th centuries. The Mongols "feared" snow in the north and west, conquering everything that was snowless at the time. In the south, where there was essentially no snow, they conquered agricultural civilizations weakened by desiccation. Rus' also shrank and weakened, moving from the desiccated Kyiv region north to Vladimir, where it was more important. The Mongols never ventured into Novgorod, where there was snow.
              1. +1
                27 August 2026 12: 13
                Yes. That's when the so-called opoljes appeared. Suzdal, the smaller Kasimovskoye, and so on.
            2. +3
              27 August 2026 12: 28
              In archeology, pre-Mongol and post-Mongol deposits are often of different colors. Pre-Mongol deposits are characterized by a mild climate, a medieval optimum, and dark, blue deposits represent a reducing environment for iron, which gives color to soils; it is in a divalent form. Post-Mongol deposits are yellow, representing a dry period; iron gives the same color, but in a trivalent form, an oxidizing environment.
              1. +3
                27 August 2026 12: 36
                Yes, I agree. I had to make soil pits too.
                1. +1
                  27 August 2026 12: 43
                  Quote: Sergey Tkach
                  Yes, I agree. I had to make soil pits too.

                  What I described isn't necessarily true. Specific natural conditions can vary, and modern ones are closer to optimal, while lower ones can also change them. But this happens quite often. That's why archaeologists invite me for consultations at excavation sites.
      2. 0
        27 August 2026 19: 13
        Moderately arid steppes are highly productive. This is precisely the climate found in the mammoth steppes, and their production was sufficient for huge herds of ungulates, mammoths, and woolly rhinoceroses.
        In fact, people once survived in Europe thanks to this productivity; glaciers not only froze them, but literally fed them.
    4. +5
      27 August 2026 10: 10
      Come visit us in Yakutia and meet the descendants of Batu's horses. The Yakut horse is a short, frost-resistant breed used under saddle, in harness, in sleighs, and in carts. When not in use, its owners simply let it out to graze, where it forages for itself, year-round, whether in meadows or in the taiga. So, unless you're racing or trudging through the desert, you don't really need to carry feed. Large warhorses, however, do need a feed trough, but I think these horses accounted for less than 10% of the total horse population.
      1. +1
        27 August 2026 10: 39
        Quote: faiver
        But for large fighting horses, a feed trough is needed, but I think that such horses made up less than 10% of the total horse population.

        In modern Mongolia, in addition to the short Mongolian horses, there are also large horses, but they are kept only in the valleys of large rivers and are also not fed, but there is more grass there; they will not survive in the larger territory of Mongolia.
    5. +3
      27 August 2026 11: 15
      Quote: paul3390
      All in all, it was a strange campaign, very strange indeed. To plunge a large steppe cavalry force into the Russian winter forest—it's your choice, but the decision was highly questionable. However, it was made and successfully carried out! How?


      Mongolian horses are skilled at tebenevka. This is why they were highly valued during WWII, as they continued to work despite the lack of food.

      As for the method of warfare involving advances across frozen rivers, it was unknown to the Polovtsians and Russians, but had been masterfully perfected by the Jurchens during the destruction of the Manchu-Korean urban civilization in the Amur region. Genghis Khan also used it successfully during the conquest of present-day Buryatia.
      1. 0
        27 August 2026 11: 23
        They can. In the Mongolian steppe, where there's little snow. For example, in the southern Russian steppes—nomads never practiced that, where snow piles up. And even more so in our winter forest. You can't always get to the grass with a bulldozer, let alone a hoof.

        Did the Russians not know how to drive on frozen rivers????
        1. +4
          27 August 2026 11: 57
          In the Yakut taiga, there is more snow than in Central Russia, and yet the local horses are calmly hoofing their feed
      2. 0
        27 August 2026 15: 26
        Why did he need to conquer Buryatia? The Buryats are northern Mongols, and Genghis Khan was their own. But in Tuva, he met resistance; the Tuvans' ancestors were Turkic. To them, Genghis Khan was a stranger.
    6. +3
      27 August 2026 14: 20
      Quote: paul3390
      The question is, what did this whole horde feed on during the campaign against Rus'? After all, it took place in winter, and even in summer. There isn't much feed for steppe horses in our forestsThey are not accustomed to eating straw; there are not that many horses in northern Rus', which means that a corresponding amount of feed is stored for them for the winter.

      The memoirs of cavalrymen from the Great Patriotic War come to mind. In the second half of the war, so-called Mongolian horses began arriving in large numbers in cavalry units. To the soldiers' surprise, these horses even turned their heads away from oats. lol (at least at first), because they had never seen such food before—only pasture, and what food! Where an ordinary horse simply couldn't graze, the Mongol woman would tear up and eat this grass, roots and all. belay earth.
    7. 0
      28 August 2026 00: 40
      Plus, the Mongols almost always managed to achieve surprise, demonstrating a remarkable awareness of the routes through forested Rus'. Where did this come from? Even simply crossing frozen rivers isn't easy; we have plenty of them; it's hard to figure out which one to take to get to the right place.
      The Mongols had impressive intelligence; they knew who was where in Europe without a written language. The simultaneous invasion of Poland and Hungary, with the almost simultaneous defeat of their main armies, is something beyond medieval strategy, more like the 1940s.
      And it's not surprising that they found something to feed their cavalry with. It's amazing how they rushed through the deserts of the Middle East and Tibet, where there's nothing to eat, nothing to drink, nowhere to make arrows, and yet they managed belay
    8. -1
      28 August 2026 15: 32
      In fact, there is a different version of the size of the Russian army at the Battle of the Voronezh River.
      Vladimir - 10,000
      Moscow - 1000
      Smolensk - 1000
      Ryazan - 500
      Kolomna - 500
      other militia - 8000 (on the flanks)
      The Mongol losses were about 25000.
      Smolensk residents went home
      The Vladimir and Moscow troops then took part in the battle at Kolomna, and after that part of it went to Vladimir and further to the Sit River.
      Near Kolomna the Mongols lost Kulhan and 20000
      In fact, only 15000 reached Kyiv by 1240, and 10000 of the 300,000 troops went to the Horde
  5. -3
    27 August 2026 05: 48
    Quote: paul3390
    In general, it was a strange trip, very strange.

    There is a theory that Batu's army was a hodgepodge of robber princes from the Cossack and Tatar tribes...then that explains a lot. what
    It was the Middle Ages after all...brother went against brother...son killed father and so on.
    1. 0
      27 August 2026 06: 57
      Quote: The same LYOKHA
      Batu's army is a hodgepodge of robber princes from the Cossack and Tatar tribes...then that explains a lot.

      This is also one of the plausible hypotheses... but someone "secretly" disagrees :)
    2. -3
      28 August 2026 16: 30
      Rus' has multiplied the Mongols by 0, from 300,000,
      In 1238, 15000 people joined the Horde, and another 10000 left Kyiv in 1240.
      275000 Mongols perished in our fields and forests.
      1. +1
        28 August 2026 16: 33
        Hmm...the numbers don't inspire confidence.
        Back then, the princes hadn't invented Rostat yet...who conducted the survey? what
        1. 0
          28 August 2026 16: 37
          Hmm... we were multiplied by 1000 for "100 years"
  6. +2
    27 August 2026 06: 55
    “To this day,” notes A. V. Zelenov, “full-text official data, diplomatic correspondence, charters, and documentary materials have not reached us, which would allow us to judge military affairs to a sufficiently full extent.”

    In fact, this is where the main problem of the history of Rus' lies, starting from the 9th century, and therefore, reflections and comparisons are welcome, rich soil for reflection and hypotheses
  7. +6
    27 August 2026 08: 03
    Even assuming a hypothetical figure of 1–5% (the highest, most unlikely estimate) of the urban population capable of providing itself with weapons, Smolensk could have fielded around 100–500 warriors (i.e., cavalry). The other cities of the Smolensk lands had even fewer. Similarly, Kyiv had up to 500–2500 warriors, Novgorod up to 300–1500, and the rest had fewer or much fewer.

    This quote completely misunderstands the demography of this period in Rus', the social composition, and population distribution. A typical mistake when the author attempts to create a TRANCING from the "knightly" WESTERN EUROPEAN SOCIETY of this period.
    Northeastern Rus', like all of Rus', is not a feudal society: there are no feudal lords, and therefore no feudal militia. Such a militia would only appear in our territory with the enslavement of the rural population in the 16th century.
    This is a pre-class society, the main subject is a free community member, rich or poor, but free - he is also a participant in the Veche - the supreme power on Earth - the "city-state".
    The prince and his retinue, at the time of the Mongol invasion, the executive power: "the path is clear" – it was not only Alexander Nevsky and his “zhvor”-squad who received it.
    It is clear that this was not a period "hay-hay" of democracy: The land or “city” was interested in the professional protection of the prince, in the power that resolved disputes – otherwise there would be anarchy, but The veche, or all armed citizens, were superior to the forces of any princely retinue.
    The city was a large village, because, especially in the North-East, the process of colonization of these lands was underway: there were no villages!!!!!
    Villages, in the modern sense, appeared in Rus' with feudalism; before that, they were either small towns or small farmsteads – up to and including the 16th century!!!
    In the 13th century, these were sparsely populated lands with dense forests, which would be developed (cut down) in the 14th-15th centuries.
    As many men as there were in these “cities”-“small villages” could participate in the battle + squad.
    All the "city-states" were on their own, and the constant hostility between them before and during the Mongol invasion did not allow any opportunity for unification: everyone was for himself.
    Under such conditions, the Mongols didn't need an invasion force of 50 or 30, and a significantly smaller force swept through the northeast like a knife through butter. And the fortifications of Russian cities for Mongol siege equipment are clearly not the work of the Southern Song Empire.
  8. +1
    27 August 2026 08: 31
    To author +
    "Have there been any cases of positive conclusions to peace negotiations? Yes."
    "Puresh, the Moksha prince (inyazor), in September 1237 supported the Mongols, accepting Batu's offer and became his vassal.
    Puresh and his army accompanied the Mongol-Tatars on their campaigns, including into Central Europe. In early 1241, Puresh's army participated in the capture of Lublin and Zawichost as the vanguard of the Mongol army.
    1. +1
      27 August 2026 09: 38
      The Erzya prince Purgas opposed the Mongols, having previously sought support from Volga Bulgaria in his struggle against the Russian principalities. In 1229, he unsuccessfully besieged Nizhny Novgorod, managing only to burn the posad and surrounding villages. Puresh, from 1220, had been an ally of the Vladimir prince Yuri Vsevolodovich in his conflict with Purgas. That same year, 1229, his son Atyamas, having allied with the Polovtsians, utterly defeated Purgas's forces.
      In the Ryazan region there is the Purgasovo settlement (near Mordovia, Kadomsky district)...
  9. -1
    27 August 2026 08: 53
    The Battle of the Voronezh River in 1237

    and right there:
    In the year 6745 (1237).

    The entire history of our land is described not from surviving documents, but from their retelling...
    Where is the history of the previous 5508 years?
    1. +1
      27 August 2026 10: 15
      Dear sir, there is no need to take anything away, 1237 AD is 6745 AD from the creation of the world...
    2. +1
      28 August 2026 00: 44
      Where is the history of the previous 5508 years?
      in the Old Testament for the most part laughing
  10. 0
    27 August 2026 09: 18
    The author continues the manipulations that began in the 19th century, replacing the Tatars we are accustomed to with mythical Mongols.
    "ideas about the Mongols and Russian princes of educated Russian society in the 19th century" (c)
    That is, if you consider yourself educated, then you see the Mongols, but if you are ignorant and read primary sources where only Tatars are mentioned, then do not trust your eyes and mind at the same time.
    When you start counting, the numbers baffle historians.
    The well-documented departure of Ivan Vasilyevich's army from Velikiye Luki, with a size similar to the figure voiced by the author, lasted more than a week.
    I recommend anyone interested in this topic to read "The Horde Trap." It was published last year, and as the author noted, not a single historian has even bothered to criticize it since then.
    1. -1
      28 August 2026 11: 21
      The author continues manipulation, which began in the 19th century, replacing the Tatars we are accustomed to with the mythical Mongols.

      off topic, but -
      Here's the latest from this list, apparently another dissertation will be written:
      Magdeburg Gate in Veliky Novgorod called an ancient comic

      https://www.myweekend.ru/doc/8908142?from=vertical_lenta
  11. +3
    27 August 2026 09: 20
    Quote: paul3390
    What's interesting here is something else: more or less realistic estimates of Batu's army are around 40-45 thousand. Each had at least two horses, plus some baggage train. Total—around 100 thousand horsemen, most likely more. The question is: what did this whole crowd feed on during the campaign against Rus'? After all, it took place in winter, and even in summer, there's not much feed for steppe horses in our forests. They're not accustomed to eating straw, and horses in northern Rus' aren't exactly plentiful, meaning a corresponding amount of feed is stored for them for the winter. The villages aren't large, a maximum of five households. How much food can you take there? Besides, you still have to find it, which is no easy task in our winter forests. You can't carry much hay in a saddlebag, only enough for a week at most. The same goes for a baggage train—the horses pull it, and they'll eat everything you carry. Yes, pushing large convoys along our winter roads is quite a task... The cities are not particularly large either, and most of them burned down, meaning the winter food supplies along with them.

    Plus, the Mongols almost always managed to achieve surprise, demonstrating a remarkable knowledge of the routes through forested Rus'. Where did this come from? Even simply crossing frozen rivers isn't easy; we have plenty of them; it's hard to figure out which one to take to get to the right place. And an unshod horse moves across the ice without any enthusiasm. Basically, you have to know our roads, and know them well. Spies from, say, merchants, won't suffice.

    All in all, it was a strange campaign, very strange indeed. To plunge a large steppe cavalry force into the Russian winter forest—it's your choice, but the decision was highly questionable. However, it was made and successfully carried out! How?

    Mongolian horses are unpretentious; in winter, they graze, grazing, and digging for dry grass from under snow up to half a meter thick. For example, Yakut horses easily survive in the forest during winter.
    Five to six kilograms of dry, coarse feed (hay, grass under snow) was enough to sustain their horses per day, plus four to five kilograms of harvested grain (oats, barley) per day for forage. Again, each Mongol warrior had several horses, each loaded with pack animals.
    Byty dispersed the army into detachments.
    Again, the Mongols conducted reconnaissance before the raid and could have been informed about the economic and military state of the enemy.
    In winter, the ice under the snow is less slippery. I'm sure not many horses were shoed in Rus'. hi
    1. -3
      27 August 2026 10: 10
      It sounds good if a horse grazes all day instead of carrying a warrior. A horse, under load, needs 10 kg of oats per day, meaning the Tatars had to carry a ton of oats per horse. The loot wouldn't be enough to feed 30 warriors, who also ate a couple of kilograms of food per day. And here the question arises: was the boy, or the Tatars, real?
      1. -1
        28 August 2026 00: 47
        Horses, under load, need 10 kg of oats per day
        What kind of oats are there in the steppe? Were the Mongols plowmen? The horses ate whatever they found, so they returned by a different route. The Mongols traveled through the forest-steppe zone, rarely going deep into the forests. And the herders knew how to feed their cattle in winter.
      2. +1
        28 August 2026 14: 54
        If you'd been to the real steppe—Mongolia—you wouldn't ask such questions. Organizing food and travel is simply a vital necessity for nomads. It's simply something learned through life. Everything is remembered.
        Yes, the same reports of the so-called Russian pioneers. Everything was recorded and noted. Roads, non-roads, watering holes, lands, rivers. Everything. The reports were sent to Moscow.
    2. 0
      27 August 2026 10: 28
      Quote: Lynx2000
      5-6 kilograms of dry, coarse feed (hay, grass under the snow) to support the life of their horse per day is enough, plus 4-5 kg ​​per day of weaned grain (oats, barley) for forage.

      Mongolian horses don't eat forage at all, they don't know how. During WWII, horses supplied from Mongolia were primarily taught to eat grain from a bag.
      Once, while riding a horse in Mongolia, I treated her to bread, but she didn’t eat it, snorting and continuing to chew on the branches of bushes. This was while fishing, near a river.
  12. -2
    27 August 2026 10: 05
    I'm translating the article into Russian: no one knows anything, but everyone's talking about it. It's just so interesting, a bunch of speculation and not a single fact, except for Batu's defeat of Rus', and how and where, we don't know.
  13. +2
    27 August 2026 11: 13
    Quote: Victor Sergeev
    It sounds good if a horse grazes all day instead of carrying a warrior. A horse, under load, needs 10 kg of oats per day, meaning the Tatars had to carry a ton of oats per horse. The loot wouldn't be enough to feed 30 warriors, who also ate a couple of kilograms of food per day. And here the question arises: was the boy, or the Tatars, real?

    You are mistaken, the basis of a horse's diet (if not summer grass in the pasture) is hay, roughage, oats, barley - supplement.
    Example: daily rations in the Red Army from 1937:
    draft horse: 4 kg oats, 4,85 kg hay, 15 g salt;
    artillery horse: 5,5 kg oats, 6,2 kg hay, 15 g salt;
    draft horse: 4 kg oats, 5,3 kg hay, 15 g salt.

    Mongolian horses do just fine without grain. So what if a warrior's horse runs amok while crossing the river? There are replacements, so I switch to another...

    Where did you get this information that a horse needs 10 kg of oats during exercise? Horses need to be fed small portions frequently throughout the day.
    1. +1
      28 August 2026 08: 37
      And the horse still needs watering. In winter, the rivers are frozen, and you can't haul enough water from the well for everyone.
      1. -1
        28 August 2026 14: 56
        Every warrior gets a bucket from the river. Not all of God is a problem.
  14. +2
    27 August 2026 11: 21
    Quote: Andobor

    Mongolian horses don't eat forage at all, they don't know how. During WWII, horses supplied from Mongolia were primarily taught to eat grain from a bag.
    Once, while riding a horse in Mongolia, I treated her to bread, but she didn’t eat it, snorting and continuing to chew on the branches of bushes. This was while fishing, near a river.

    What a coincidence, my small homeland (the Altai Mountains) is also near Mongolia, and I'm familiar with Mongolian horses. My father-in-law has horses for herding cows on his dairy farm, and I'm treating one of the horses, which has a sprained ligament in its left hind leg. He also doesn't eat bread, but he loves apples and cucumbers.

    Regarding accustoming Mongolian horses to grain or feed mixture (granulated, vitamin-enriched compound feed), they sniff, taste, and eat well.
    I've already told you that my paternal grandmother, a Buchuchi teenager, participated in the herding of livestock (camels, sheep) and horses from Mongolia to Biysk during WWII. The weak horses were fed oats.
    1. -1
      27 August 2026 12: 49
      Quote: Lynx2000
      Regarding accustoming Mongolian horses to grain or feed mixture (granulated, vitamin-enriched compound feed), they sniff, taste, and eat well.

      Yes, they train and habituate, and the Mongolian horses have been trained. But this had to be done; the Mongols don't feed their horses grain at all.
  15. 0
    27 August 2026 11: 23
    By the way, according to more recent archaeological data, the Battle of the City as a field battle did not exist; the army was confined to farmsteads and villages and was destroyed piece by piece.
  16. +1
    27 August 2026 12: 19
    Quote: paul3390
    They can. In the Mongolian steppe, where there's little snow. For example, in the southern Russian steppes—nomads never practiced that, where snow piles up. And even more so in our winter forest. You can't always get to the grass with a bulldozer, let alone a hoof.


    So, there was no Great Patriotic War in the southern Russian steppes?

    As for movement on ice, it was _not_typical_ for_the_Turks_, with whom the Russians had previously had to deal, so the northeastern princes were completely unprepared for such an unexpected turn of events.
  17. +2
    27 August 2026 13: 08
    Quote: Andobor

    Yes, they train and habituate, and the Mongolian horses have been trained. But this had to be done; the Mongols don't feed their horses grain at all.

    Well, they don't do any crop farming, and very, very rarely does anyone make hay, and when there's jude in the steppe, they come to us for hay...


    Here he is, "sick", eating a mixture of oats and compound feed, while I was changing the bandage, an hour ago.
  18. 0
    27 August 2026 14: 10
    How reliable are the accounts of the Ryazan Tale? To what extent, asks historian A.V. Mayorov, can they correspond to the historical realities of the mid-13th century? Several attempts to find answers to these and similar questions have so far yielded no conclusive results. In modern literature, a generally skeptical attitude toward the original accounts of "The Tale of the Sacking of Ryazan" prevails.

    The author then answers himself as follows:
    Despite the emergence of new scholarly works, writes historian A.V. Zelenov, and the clear desire of scholars to advance the study of Rus' history, there are objective reasons why estimating the size of Russian armies is either extremely difficult or downright impossible: the problem lies in the state of the source base itself. This problem primarily concerns the pre-Mongol period. After all, scholars often rely on chronicles, a very specific historical source, for this source base. Chronicles are primarily a religious and literary work, and only secondarily a factual and historical one.

    A religious literary work, that is, first and foremost, a religious one. If the facts contradict the chronicler's understanding of Holy Scripture, so much the worse for the facts. sad sad sad
  19. -1
    27 August 2026 16: 06
    I look at the photo where:
    Yuri Ingvarevich on the lithograph by B.A. Chorikov 1846, reflecting ideas about the Mongols and Russian princes of educated Russian society of the 19th century

    and I can't understand, is Chingangchgook and his Mohican comrades standing on the left side?
    I wonder where this idea about the Mongols came from - almost 200 years ago?
    1. +2
      28 August 2026 13: 14
      Quote: Dedok
      and I can't understand, is Chingangchgook and his Mohican comrades standing on the left side?

      This is a shaman. They depicted him based on those encountered among the peoples of Siberia. And the warrior comrades were based on Kalmyks.
      1. 0
        28 August 2026 14: 21
        This is a shaman. They depicted him based on those encountered among the peoples of Siberia. And the warrior comrades were based on Kalmyks.

        Apparently, at that moment, it was impossible to imagine it any other way
  20. +2
    27 August 2026 20: 03
    Quote: fiberboard
    Why did he need to conquer Buryatia? The Buryats are northern Mongols, and Genghis Khan was their own.


    Yeah, so close to us that Temuchin was in stocks with the Taijiuts, and they tried to finish him off several times, and the Merkits, allied with them, kidnapped his wife.
  21. 0
    28 August 2026 00: 57
    1. Batu had no intention of accepting Ryazan's capitulation; he deliberately made increasingly brazen demands to be sent away. He destroyed the city as a showpiece for others, so that they would recognize the power of the new ruler and remain quiet.
    2. For a couple of hundred years, Russian princes fought in open fields; sieges were extremely rare. Sitting behind walls means depriving yourself of the opportunity to maneuver. Then you'll end up burning to death with your entire retinue in a wooden town behind a wooden palisade.
    Ryazan could have been saved only if some brilliant time traveler had gotten there with at least a machine gun request
  22. +2
    28 August 2026 08: 58
    Quote: ALARI
    And the horse still needs watering. In winter, the rivers are frozen, and you can't haul enough water from the well for everyone.

    I remember just 30-35 years ago, in my grandfather's village (2,5 thousand people), which was located on the river bank, they kept livestock in each yard (1-2 cows, a calf, some had horses), with a centralized water supply in the houses and water pumps on the streets, in the winter they cut holes in the ice on the river, where they watered the cattle.
    In extreme cases, when tebenevka is used in winter, horses or calves eat snow, which is not very desirable.
  23. +1
    3 September 2026 12: 39
    So, Ryazan had a population of approximately 8-10, including several hundred professional warriors and perhaps a thousand skilled in the art of war. An army of 20-30 men, who had fought in wars with China, Khorezm, the Caucasus, and Bulgaria, had experience storming cities far beyond Ryazan's, and possessed siege equipment, approached its walls. So, who would win?