Military Review

"An unheard of army has come ..." To the 790 anniversary of the Battle of Kalka

53
790 years ago, on the Kalka river, the Russian-Polovtsian army suffered a heavy defeat from an "unheard of rati." The Russian chronicler wrote in 1223: “An unheard army arrived. Nobody knows them well who they are from and where they came from, and what their language and tribe are, and what their faith is. ”


In 2013, the “Mongol-Tatar” invasion was already discussed in detail in a series of articles on the Military Review. Russian land before the Batu invasion. The problem of the "Mongol" invasion of Russia. In this work it was concluded that the traditional presentation of the "Tatar-Mongol" invasion is a myth and deception, extremely beneficial to Russia's geopolitical rivals in the West and the East. A more reasonable and politically advantageous Russia is the hypothesis of supporters of the “Scythian” (Indo-European) origin of the “Tatars”. Proponents of this theory argue that Russia as a civilization and geopolitical reality existed almost always and within the borders of Northern Eurasia. Our direct ancestors entered the world history under different names - Aryans, Cimmerians, Scythians, Wends, Sarmatians, Roksolans, Dews, Rasens, Varangians, Rugs, "Mughals" ("Powerful"), etc. In the territory of Northern Eurasia - from the Pacific Ocean and North China to Central Europe and the Black Sea anthropological, cultural and often political unity can be traced from the times of the Neolithic and Bronze Age (this time of the Proto-Indo-Europeans and Aryans) to the Middle Ages. The Russian people (Ruses) did not come from anywhere to the territory of the present settlement, as we are told, he originally lived here. Although no one denies migrations of individual clans and tribal unions.

It is clear that a single empire from the Pacific to the Carpathians did not exist. But from time to time our ancestors created huge state formations that existed during the life of one great ruler, or several generations. The Northern Empire had a huge impact on the whole history of mankind. Migrants from it created the Indian and Iranian civilizations. And in India, many traditions were mothballed up to the present, when in the north they were already forgotten or they were deliberately destroyed. Great Scythia also had a huge impact on the Middle East, the formation of the Western world and Chinese statehood.

Belonging to the same civilization did not exclude serious military conflicts between different lands, tribal unions and state entities. This is not surprising - look at the modern relations of the Russian Federation and Ukraine, both states populate the descendants of the Rus, with a common language, culture and faith (with minor local features), but this does not prevent them from conflicting with each other. We see the same conflict in the 13 century, when the heirs of the great northern civilization - Scythia, who inhabited the territories of the Southern Urals and Southern Siberia, modern Mongolia (the “Scythho-Siberian world”) experienced a passionate surge and included Turkic tribes in their movement and created a huge empire. It was these “Scythians” that came to Vladimir-Suzdal and Kievan Rus. They were the only real fighting force capable of crushing China, Khorezm, dozens of state formations. The semi-wild Mongolian shepherds would never have been able to create an empire, for this we need a serious cultural, economic foundation. Anthropologically and genetically, these late Scythians were the same Rus (“white, bright”), like the Russians of Ryazan and Kiev. They differed in the form of clothing - the “Scypho-Siberian bestial” style, with their dialect, preserved the traditional faith for the most part - were pagans (“unclean”). Therefore, the "Mongolian" yoke did not leave the slightest change in the anthropological image of the population of Russia, and the khans found common with most of the princes, became related to them, fraternized, and crushed the western knights together.

On the whole, there were few Rus- “Siberians”, they constituted the military-political elite of the created empire and were subsequently assimilated by the masses of Mongoloids and Turks. At the same time, they gave a passionate impulse to the Turks. The memory of them was preserved in the legends and tales of many nationalities, who considered their ancestors to be light-eyed and fair-haired giants. The “giants” were considered by the Russ to be more puny representatives of the Arab and Mongolian-Turkic world.

In addition, it is necessary to note the negative role of Islamization of the Horde. The consolidation processes of the Horde and Russia, which had gained strength, were cut short, and the Horde state began to rapidly deteriorate. In the future, the fragments of the empire began to collect Moscow.

This view of the "Tatar-Mongols" allows us to explain a lot of inconsistencies, "white spots" in the history of Russia. Russia does not need a myth made up in Rome and supported by the political elites of western and eastern countries. We must create a history of Russia that will go deep into the millennia, and not end at the place of the baptism of Russia.

prehistory

In 1206, Temuchin was elected the great Khan, the supreme leader of the "Mongols". He received a new name - Genghis Khan. Temujin was able in many wars to unite most of the "Mongol" genera. In 1207, the tribes living to the north of the Selenga and the upper reaches of the Yenisei, the Tangut state Si-Xia, were included in the powers. 1209, the "Mongols" subjugated the country to the Uighurs and land in southern and central Siberia. In 1211, a large-scale offensive against China began, and in the third year Temujin’s warriors took Peking. In the 1219-1221 years, the lands of Central Asia were subordinated. According to the Persian historian Rashid-ad-Din, Genghis Khan ordered his eldest son, Jochi, to "conquer all the regions of the North, that is, Ibir-Sibir, Bular, Desht-i-Kipchak, Bashkird, Russia and Circassian." But during the life of Genghis Khan, this broad aggressive program was not implemented - the main armies were fighting in China and Central Asia.

In Eastern Europe, a reconnaissance campaign was undertaken by only one detachment. In 1220, the Great Khan received news that Mohammed Khorezmshah was assembling an army on the banks of the Amu Darya. To clarify the situation and defeat the forces of the ruler of Khorezm, he corrected three tumens (“darkness” - 10-thousand cavalry corps) under the command of his best generals - Jebe (Zhebe), Subedei (Subudai) and Tokhuchara. Subsequently, the Tohuchara Corps was recalled. The search for Khorezmshah poured into a long hike. 30-thousand army (it was replenished with various mining seekers) passed Northern Iran, plundered the lands of Azerbaijan and invaded Georgia. The Georgians gathered an army and fought, but the “Mongols” ambushed them, surrounded and destroyed their army. The Georgians continued to resist in the mountainous areas, Subudei and Chebe did not linger to capture the mountain strongholds and moved towards Derbent. Applying a trick, they broke into the lands of the North Caucasus.

Alan tribes called for help Polovtsy, their combined army withstood the onslaught of the "Mongols". Then the "Mongols" again went to the military trick. They turned to the Polovtsy: "We and you are one people and from one tribe, but Alans are strangers to us." Polovtsi were also the heirs of the Scythian-Sarmatian state - direct descendants of the Siberian Scythians. They, like the Russians, had a "Scythian" anthropological appearance - they were blond Caucasian. The Polovtsy were offered to conclude a peace treaty and give them gold and “dresses, how much your soul desires.” The "Mongols" did convey a lot of good to the Polovtsy, and they left the Allies, the Alans. This mistake cost them dearly. The Polovtsian elite will be defeated by the "Mongols", while the ordinary Polovtsians will constitute the majority of the population of the Horde.

The "Mongolian" army defeated the Alans, and then set to the Polovtsy. In the fierce battle on the Don, the Polovtsian army was defeated - the princes Yuri Konchakovich and Danila Kobyakovi fell in battle. The remnants of their troops fled to the west, where they joined forces with Kotyan Sutoyevich, who roamed between the Dnieper and the Dniester. At the beginning of 1223, the troops of Sudubei and Chebe appeared in the Black Sea region. They invaded the Crimean peninsula and ravaged it, the city of Sudak (Surozh).

Russian princes hike

Polovtsian Khan Kotyan, who was a relative of the Galician prince Mstislav, “came with a bow from the Polovtsian princes to Galich to Prince Mstislav, to his son-in-law, and to all Russian princes, and many gifts were made by horses, camels, girls, and gave the princes of the Russians, and said so: “Our land was taken away today, and yours will be taken tomorrow, defend us, if you don’t help us, we will be cut now, and you will be cut tomorrow!” I must say that the Polovtsi were not only rivals of Russia in the south, but also the allies of various Russian princes, often supported by their Roads tvennikov, in various internecine conflicts or wars with external enemies. Prince Mstislav Mstislavich Boldly in the spring of 1221, with the help of the Polovtsian troops, beat off Galich from the Hungarians. Besides. Russian and Polovtsian were tied by the dynastic marriages of the ruling elites, trade relations.

In Kiev, the council was assembled South Russian princes. The elders on it were the prince of Kiev Mstislav Romanovich, the galician prince of Mstislav Mstislavich and the Chernigov prince of Mstislav Svyatoslavich. After much wrangling, generous gifts and persuasion Kotyan and Mstislav Galitsky decided: "If we do not help them ... then the Polovtsi will stick to enemies, and their strength will become greater." Began to collect troops to march in the steppe.

In the middle of May, 1223, on the Dnieper, near Oleshya, were assembled Russian squads. In the campaign took part up to 20 princes with the squads. The most significant forces exhibited Kiev and Chernigov grand dukes with assistant princes, they had infantry. A strong squad was at the Galician prince Mstislav, under his own command was the Volyn prince Daniel Romanovich. Polovtsi also submitted to him - their squad was led by the Galician prince Yarun. 400 warriors arrived from Smolensk. The squads from Kursk, Trubchevsk, Kozelsk, Turov and other cities arrived. The exact number of the Russian-Polovtsian army is unknown. It is estimated at 80-100 thousand soldiers, from one-third to half of the troops were Polovtsy. But apparently, the more real number is 40-50 thousand soldiers. South Russia has not collected such rati. Volyn-Galician army went down the Dniester into the Black Sea, and then up the Dnieper to the island of Khortytsya at the rapids, where it connected with the main forces.

The main weakness of this army was the lack of a unified command. The princes could not agree on unity of command and a general plan of action. Princely squads, even when assembled together, were not a single force. This predetermined defeat, despite the superiority in numbers. In fact, there were three ratios. The Kiev army was headed by the Grand Duke of Kiev Mstislav Romanovich, the formal leader of the campaign. This corps included the Kiev militia (infantry), the guards of the Grand Duke and his son Vsevolod Mstislavsky, son-in-law of the Kiev Prince — Turov Prince Andrey Ivanovich, Svyatoslav Ingvarevicha Shumsky, Yuriy Yaropkovych Ostravsky, ovoryan Dubrovitsky, ostrov ogravichsky ostrovsky ostrovsky ostrovsky ostrovsky ostrovsky ostrovsky ostrovskyy The Chernihiv-Smolensk army under the command of Mstislav Svyatoslavich: the squads of Mikhail Vsevolodovich Pereyaslavsky, Oleg Svyatoslavich Kursk, Izyaslav Vladimirovich Putivl, Svyatoslav Vsevolodovich Trubchevsky, Dmitry (Vasilko) Mstislavich Kozelsky (the eldest son of the Chernigov prince) The third party - Galician-Volyn-Polovtsy, was under the authority of the initiator of the campaign of the Galician prince Mstislav the Remote (or Udatny). His corps included the Galician brigade, the Volyn brigade of Daniil Romanovich, the brigade of Mstislav Yaroslavich Mute Lutsk, Izyaslav Ingvarevich Dorogobuzh, Polovtsy Yarun.

The number of "Tatars" is also unknown. The core of the "Mongolian" troops were two "darkness" Sudubei and Chebe - about 20-30 thousand soldiers. In addition, along the way they were joined by a number of different adventurers and prey hunters, brigands from different nationalities, including Russian vagrants, who some researchers consider to be precursors of the Cossacks.

The “Mongolian” command, before the start of the Russian campaign, sent an embassy that offered peace - “we did not touch your land, neither your cities, nor your villages; they did not come to you, but they came, by the will of God, to slaves and grooms of the Polovtsy. " Polovtsev in the Russian lands offered to expel and take away their property. The princes thought it was a hoax and ordered to kill all the messengers. The Mongols sent a second embassy, ​​already with a declaration of war: “You listened to the Polovtsy and killed our ambassadors; now come at us, well, go; we did not touch you: God is above us all. ”

The Kiev prince Mstislav Romanovich Old proposed to give the battle to the "Tatars" on the Dnieper, to choose defensive tactics. Given the lack of unity in the troops, this was the right proposal. The Russian command practically knew nothing about the enemy - its strength, combat tactics, fighting spirit. Mstislav Udaray insisted on the offensive, offered to strike at the enemy himself, to move to the steppe. The Chernigov prince Mstislav Svyatoslavich waited, not supporting either the proposal of the Galician or the Kiev prince.

At this time, the Dnieper advanced "Mongolian" hundreds. The first to be picked up by Mstislav Galitsky’s squad on the left bank of the Dnieper, he attacked the “Tatar” watchmen and overturned them. This first victory dispelled doubts. Most of the princes and boyars came out for offensive actions. The Chernigov prince stopped hesitating and supported Mstislav Galitsky. For the Galicians moved the rest of the troops. 23 May, the main forces crossed the river and moved into the steppes. Ahead went the troops of Mstislav the Remote, followed by the troops of the Chernigov prince, closed the column of forces of Mstislav the Old. The troops went joyfully, the enemy fled. They beat the captured cattle, feasted. They hoped to overtake the enemy and take away the booty that the "Mongols" had seized in the plundered lands. The feeling of victory and superiority over the enemy relaxed the warriors. The princes did not know that the "Mongols" used their usual tactics - luring the enemy to a place convenient for them.

Battle

The chase lasted 8 days. Princely squads stretched across the steppe, lost sight of each other. When 31 of May 1223 of the year behind the river Kalka was discovered by enemy forces ready for battle, the Russian army did not have all the forces that went on the march. Galician prince did not wait for the approach of other princes, and crossing the river, hit the first enemy line. With this he angered the Kiev and Chernigov princes. Mstislav of Kiev was cautious and ordered to build a fortified camp.

The most experienced "Mongolian" generals immediately used the adversary's mistake - the enemy allowed him to split his forces separately. The troops of Mstislav the Boldy pressed the enemy’s forward units, and then collided with the main forces of the enemy. The strike of the Russian-Polovtsian troops was stopped and then crushed by the Polovtsy. Their wave hit the still standing Russian squads. Chernihiv troops generally found themselves in a situation where advanced units had already entered the battle, while others had only forced the river. They did not have time to prepare for the battle, and were crushed. It was a disaster. The flight has become general. Separate squads that continued to resist or only approached the battlefield could no longer change the situation. The prince of Kiev with impotent fury watched the slaughter from his camp. Russian bogatyrs - the Rostov boyar Alexander (Olesha) Popovich and Dobrynya Ryazanich Zlat Belt (one of the prototypes of the epic Dobryni Nikitich) laid down their heads in this massacre. Some units did not participate in the battle, lagging behind the main forces. They joined the stream of runaways.

"An unheard-of army has come ..." To the 790th anniversary of the Battle of Kalka


The Kiev army remained away from the first stage of the battle, so some researchers accuse Mstislav Romanovich Old of defeat. Like, if he supported the offensive of Mstislav the Remote, or joined the battle later, it was possible to turn the tide. But, most likely, this is a misconception. Galician-Volyn-Polovtsian and Chernigov troops were already defeated and fled, it was not possible to assemble them. Part of the "Mongolian" army pursued them, it was already a massacre, not a battle. Only a part of the Polovtsy, Mstislav Udalai, Daniel Romanovich and some other princes with small groups of warriors who had excellent horses could leave. The main "Mongolian" forces besieged the Kiev camp. For three days, the Kievans fought off enemy attacks. Take the strengthening of the Kiev prince did not work, then he was offered a life for something. Mstislav the Old and his assistants to the princes sent the chieftain of the wanderers Ploskinu. There was nothing surprising in this agreement. During the wars with the Polovtsy, the captured princes were not just released for ransom. The troops ran out of water, and the princes decided to go to this agreement. The "Mongols" were not going to let their enemies go: they tied up the princes and threw them under the platform on which they held a "feast on the bones", and the ordinary warriors, who laid down weaponinterrupted.

It was one of the worst defeats in Russian history. The chronicles report that nine of ten warriors died, including 12 princes and many boyars and warriors. Southern Russia was exsanguinated by the death of thousands of the best warriors and was unable to restore its military potential to the emergence of the Batu army. The "Mongolian" army, apparently, also suffered heavy losses, since it could not take advantage of the fruits of the victory. When rati from Vladimirskaya Russia appeared under the command of Vasilyk Rostovsky, who was late for the start of the march, the “Mongols” refused to strike at Kiev and left for the Volga. There they were defeated by the troops of the Volga Bulgars (Bulgarians).
Author:
53 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. Mikhado
    Mikhado 31 May 2013 08: 25 New
    11
    Alas, the logical victory of a single, united force over the loose mass of poorly controlled troops.
    Then the Russians studied unity for a long time, Moscow became the center of the new Russian power and led to Kulikov Field, and the Chingiz empire lost this integrity.
    And so, Kalka is one of the black pages of Russian history, fortunately - not the last for us.
    1. Prometey
      Prometey 31 May 2013 10: 45 New
      0
      Quote: Mikhado
      And so, Kalka is one of the black pages of Russian history, fortunately - not the last for us.

      That is, we are waiting for new black pages?
      1. adg76
        adg76 31 May 2013 13: 55 New
        +3
        History teaches that in order for us to unite, we must first wash our own blood. Stop talking, cement, become one. Have a single leadership and common goal
  2. Yun Klob
    Yun Klob 31 May 2013 08: 37 New
    +1
    Alyosha Popovich and Dobrynya Nikitich died in this battle?
    1. Guun
      Guun 31 May 2013 14: 03 New
      0
      Fell in battle. Not knowing and underestimating the enemy always leads to defeat, even with a large numerical superiority. The Mongols then went through so many wars and the baggage of experience was enormous, and their main army was cavalry - in the steppe the infantry had no chance against it.
  3. Andrew 121
    Andrew 121 31 May 2013 09: 46 New
    +3
    Yes muddy with the history of our homeland oh how muddy. Perhaps the roots of the union are hidden in it.
  4. avt
    avt 31 May 2013 10: 16 New
    +2
    Quote: Andrey 121
    Yes muddy with the history of our homeland oh how muddy. Perhaps the roots of the union are hidden in it.

    Read the intelligence reports of Plano Carpini 1180-1252, Wilhelm de Rubruk 1253-1255, Dominican Andre 1245 and you can well imagine that the nomads did not receive any super-passionary kick and the Sun did not bake the heads of thousands of steppe dwellers, with all my deep respect to Gumilyov. There was a really big country where the Uyghurs played the leading role, and a Christian country, under the leadership of Presbyter John. So they wrote then. But he died childless and as a result of a short war, well, like in England the war of the Scarlet and White Roses, Genghis reigned, quite a successful military leader and statesman, as evidenced by his subsequent affairs.
    1. Andrew 121
      Andrew 121 31 May 2013 11: 37 New
      +5
      Thanks for the answer. It seems that in the Republic of Altai Gorny in 1993 a mound was opened with the remains (mummy) of a woman, her princess was nicknamed Altai. After restoring the appearance and studying the jewelry and other things found, it turned out to be a woman of Slavic appearance or as the Scythian is written. Read is also interesting. wink
      http://osoznanie.org/1180-altayskaya-princessa.html
      1. avt
        avt 31 May 2013 11: 47 New
        +2
        Quote: Andrey 121
        After restoring the appearance and studying the jewelry and other things found, it turned out to be a woman of Slavic appearance or as the Scythian is written. Read is also interesting. wink

        I know, there’s a whole cemetery, and a number of mummies were destroyed. They said that after opening the graves they could not save from decomposition. And the Princess of Altai is one of the last, if not the last.
        1. rapira99
          rapira99 31 May 2013 19: 44 New
          +1
          I wedge a little ....
          Inflating the problem from finding the so-called "princess" is trivial - money.
          The funding for that expedition came mainly from abroad. In particular, the Japanese. They are in the mountains of Altai looking for their roots. They just do not want to agree with the version of their Chinese origin.
          So - it was not possible to take the mummy out of the country quietly. Novosibirsk did not. Then we agreed with the Altaians - something about a million dollars .. This is 1993 .. They raise a butch .. And then the mummy is sent to Moscow. You get the figs - scream, do not scream .. When only the money issue was resolved only then they returned to Novosibirsk. And note - returning to Altai, do not bury .. Who knows?
          And in Akademgorodok next to the "princess" there was another mummy - a warrior. Slightly different in safety and tattoos. However, there is no mess on this "comrade" ...
      2. yurta2013
        yurta2013 2 June 2013 15: 06 New
        0
        Scythian appearance and Slavic are not the same thing. The Scythians, like the Slavs, were racially indigenous to the Indo-Europeans. However, the Indo-Europeans (Scythians, Slavs, Germans, Iranians, Indo-Aryans) also differed among themselves according to racial characteristics (face shape, skull, bone length, etc.).
  5. Ross
    Ross 31 May 2013 10: 22 New
    +3
    The selfishness of the princes led to defeat. So now the Anglo-Saxons are trying to beat us in parts.
  6. Nayhas
    Nayhas 31 May 2013 10: 23 New
    +7
    The author forgot to mention that Subaedeus sent Christian ambassadors to the Russians, but despite this they were killed, the murder of the ambassadors led to dire consequences for all of Russia, because for this felony had to answer with blood. Also, the author speaking about two tumens for some reason cites the number of 20-30 thousand, which is clearly not true, because Tumen should consist of 10 thousand soldiers, but often there weren’t as many as, for example, there can be 12 thousand people and 15 thousand in the division, depending on the number of regiments, peacetime or military personnel, whether there are military operations, etc. d. All that can be said is that Subedea and Jebe had up to 20 thousand people, but given that they acted in isolation from the Khan’s headquarters and didn’t have replenishment, there were actually less than 15 thousand of them. Subedea’s campaign itself and Jebe is unprecedented, nothing like this has ever been done in military history, nor has it happened in future history.
    1. Guun
      Guun 31 May 2013 14: 27 New
      +3
      When Genghis Khan sent Muslims - ambassadors to the cities of Otrar Desht and Kipchak, where, shortly before, the governor of Otrar Guir Khan ordered to plunder the caravan of the Mongols, and all who were executed with him. The ambassadors demanded that the city give the criminals to the Mongols, despite the fact that the ambassadors came to the governor of the Muslim city, they were declared stray Muslims (heretics) and killed - after some time the Mongols stormed Otrar, and then destroyed. Guyr Khan was waiting for a sad fate - his head was doused with gold and a mask was made. One and the same mistake is visible that you have and what we have. I wonder why many imagine the Mongolian cavalry in dressing gowns, it was a heavily armed cavalry which at one time crushed many armies into the ground.
      1. yurta2013
        yurta2013 2 June 2013 14: 53 New
        0
        Quote: Guun
        I wonder why many imagine the Mongolian cavalry in dressing gowns, it was a heavily armed cavalry which at one time crushed many armies into the ground.

        In fact, the Mongols had both light and heavy cavalry. Each of these species had its own tasks and played its own role in the battle.
  7. Standard Oil
    Standard Oil 31 May 2013 10: 28 New
    0
    Yes, not the most glorious page of our military history.
  8. Prometey
    Prometey 31 May 2013 10: 51 New
    +1
    Quote: Nayhas
    The author forgot to mention that Subaedeus sent Christian ambassadors to the Russians, but despite this they were killed, the murder of the ambassadors led to dire consequences for all of Russia, because for this felony had to answer with blood.

    And why was it to kill them? Or again they want to say that the Rus were so wild barbarians that they did not comply with any codes? I don’t believe something in it.
    1. Egoza
      Egoza 31 May 2013 12: 06 New
      +4
      Quote: Prometey
      And why was it to kill them?

      Unfortunately it was (and in history more than once). Everything depended on the "level" of PRIDE of this or that prince.
  9. asadov
    asadov 31 May 2013 11: 50 New
    0
    yes, there is a lot of obscurity with the ambassadors ... But there is also a lot of incomprehensibility with the princes .. Why wasn’t there an action plan?
  10. tomket
    tomket 31 May 2013 14: 54 New
    +2
    in general, it strongly resembles counterattacks near Dubno and Brody, just as formal numerical superiority was nullified by the phased introduction of the corps into the battle, which is called when history does not teach anything.
    1. yurta2013
      yurta2013 2 June 2013 14: 49 New
      0
      Are you sure that the Soviet generals in 1941 knew well the history of the Battle of Kalka and, in general, the history of Ancient Russia? Especially when you consider that in the 20s and early 30s (when future commanders received their school education), history was not taught at all in our schools (even there were no textbooks yet).
  11. Trapperxnumx
    Trapperxnumx 31 May 2013 15: 27 New
    +1
    There would be no Kalki, there would be no Kulikov field. By the time of the battle, Kalka had no united Russia at all. Individual principalities whose inhabitants did not at all consider themselves to be a single people with the inhabitants of the neighboring principality. So Kalka is one of the episodes, albeit a mournful one, on the way to becoming the United, Great and Mighty Russia !!! This must also be remembered.
  12. Svyatoslav72
    Svyatoslav72 31 May 2013 17: 28 New
    0
    History teaches that practically nothing teaches, the same "rake" only in a different form. (((
  13. Fibrizio
    Fibrizio 31 May 2013 21: 26 New
    +3
    You know, everything connected with the invasion of the Tatars to Russia, the seizure of China, there are a lot of discrepancies. I personally familiarized myself with the book by A. Bushkov "Mirage of the Great Empire" with pleasure. In it, the existence of "monogolo-Tatars" in the understanding familiar to classical history is argued. The book is less than 300 pages, if anyone is interested in History, he would very much like to hear the opinion of knowledgeable people. In short, the main concept of the book boils down to proving that "TATARS", "HORDE" in Russia were simply called an army (squad), and tribute in the form of tithes has always existed in Russia. Another thesis submitted for consideration is that when Siberia was colonized under Van the Terrible, no remnants of the horde were found. And those local that were found were at a primitive level of development and clearly did not belong to the descendants of the Golden Horde. In short, there are many reasonable arguments, so for some time now I began to be skeptical about our history, at least up to Peter 1.
    1. tomket
      tomket 31 May 2013 21: 30 New
      0
      Bushkov is a new adherent of the Fomenkovschina ????
    2. Horde
      Horde 31 May 2013 21: 52 New
      0
      Quote: Fibrizio
      under Van the Terrible colonized Siberia,


      well, at least not to Ivashka under the yogurt ... laughing
    3. yurta2013
      yurta2013 2 June 2013 14: 41 New
      0
      Before you are skeptical of our official medieval history, you need to know it well first. Two or three articles on the Internet will not get off here. Read, read and read, preferably not on the Internet, but in a scientific library. Start with what are considered historical sources and how to use them correctly to gain historical knowledge. Only starting from this can you distinguish scientific knowledge from unscientific and pseudoscientific.
  14. Serg_Y
    Serg_Y 31 May 2013 21: 42 New
    0
    Every time I read, and wonder how you need to be self-confident in order to go this way, without intelligence.
  15. Horde
    Horde 31 May 2013 21: 49 New
    +2
    yes ridiculously all the same the forum users persuaded Alexander Samsonov to include the RUSSIAN component in the Scythian and Mongolian, as well as Polovtsian. This is already progress. Although to figure out what kind of people were such Scythians-Mongols-Polovtsy? What language is balakali in? Where are the centers-centers of culture? On the Yenisei? But have the remains of a significant culture been found there capable of, say, making war iron in thousands of tons to equip the army of Genghis Khan? It turns out that the Scythians are the nomadic people who created the army of Genghis Khan, but the nomads are not able to create such a high-tech civilizational product as weapons steel. a settled way of life and long and hard research - to get through the trial and error method of creating precisely the technology of iron smelting, then they began. If the Scythians achieved all this, then where are these wonderful fortifications?
    Further, the Scythians mean separately, and the Russians separately two different peoples, the Scythians created the Golden Horde, and the Russians Kievan Rus, Novgorod Rus? The Scythians spoke Turkish, and the Russians, respectively, in Russian?
    So here it means? But what about the terrible destruction of the Russian cities during the conquest of Russia? I don’t know some questions.
    1. Prometey
      Prometey 2 June 2013 00: 07 New
      +1
      Quote: Horde
      But have the remains of significant culture been found there capable of, say, making war iron in thousands of tons to arm Genghis Khan's army?

      Any historian-theorist on the fingers will prove that it was not more difficult for the Mongolian steppes to extract and melt iron than to make lamb skins laughing
      And in general, the Mongols were ahead of all the military thought of the East and West for centuries ahead (just it is not clear how they themselves remained at the level of the Middle Ages until the 20th century?) Well, I will not say anything about the general worship of their military genius, but their technological innovations simply "amaze" - from massive catapults and trebuchets, to various flamethrowers and rockets on powder charges. When I asked where it all went, when the Europeans sailed to China, who found the army polls armed only with melee weapons, I did not achieve anything worthy of intelligibility.
      1. Horde
        Horde 2 June 2013 10: 02 New
        +1
        Quote: Prometey
        Any historian-theorist on the fingers will prove that it was not more difficult for the Mongolian steppes to extract and melt iron than to make lamb skins


        the fact of the matter is that "any historians" and even the most venerable DO NOT PRESENT at all what it means to melt iron. Now there are many videos on YouTube, where demonstrators show how to properly obtain iron from, say, swamp ore, so this process requires SIGNIFICANT and PROLONGED efforts, that by laying tens of kilograms of ore and three times the amount of charcoal at the exit, pitiful GRAMS of real iron are obtained, and at the same time that smelting can take more than a dozen hours and at the same time you cannot stop the process of supplying raw (not heated) air in A LOT of very intensively it is necessary to inflate the furs, the demonstrators use electric fans so as not to fall near the furnace. At the exit from tens of kilograms of ore it turns out that something is suitable for making a KNIFE. And thousands of tons ??? the mind is incomprehensible.
        By the way, do not tell me a link to this historical site? please.
  16. Truffoff
    Truffoff 31 May 2013 22: 00 New
    0
    N-yes received, pindyuley. The only consolation is that those from whom they received are now mostly in the country.
  17. Fibrizio
    Fibrizio 31 May 2013 22: 17 New
    0
    Quote: Horde
    yes ridiculously all the same the forum users persuaded Alexander Samsonov to include the RUSSIAN component in the Scythian and Mongolian, as well as Polovtsian. This is already progress. Although to figure out what kind of people were such Scythians-Mongols-Polovtsy? What language is balakali in? Where are the centers-centers of culture? On the Yenisei? But have the remains of a significant culture been found there capable of, say, making war iron in thousands of tons to equip the army of Genghis Khan? It turns out that the Scythians are the nomadic people who created the army of Genghis Khan, but the nomads are not able to create such a high-tech civilizational product as weapons steel. a settled way of life and long and hard research - to get through the trial and error method of creating precisely the technology of iron smelting, then they began. If the Scythians achieved all this, then where are these wonderful fortifications?
    Further, the Scythians mean separately, and the Russians separately two different peoples, the Scythians created the Golden Horde, and the Russians Kievan Rus, Novgorod Rus? The Scythians spoke Turkish, and the Russians, respectively, in Russian?
    So here it means? But what about the terrible destruction of the Russian cities during the conquest of Russia? I don’t know some questions.

    If you are familiar with some works on this topic, share the list, I do not like to study the issue one-sidedly. At the institute, I studied classical history well, and I even loved it, but what about the "reasonable" alternative versions, I find it difficult.
  18. Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 31 May 2013 22: 41 New
    0
    The power of Russia is determined by the sword. And you need to know the history of the country. And draw conclusions.
  19. eJik
    eJik 31 May 2013 22: 54 New
    0
    Polovtsy-Goths-Getae-Saki-Sarmatians-Scythians-Huns-
  20. eJik
    eJik 31 May 2013 22: 56 New
    +4
    The myth of the Tatar-Mongol yoke
    1. arkgrz
      arkgrz 2 June 2013 02: 42 New
      +2
      looked .. in general, I also think so
  21. Horde
    Horde 31 May 2013 22: 57 New
    +2
    Quote: Fibrizio
    If you are familiar with some works on this topic, share the list, I do not like to study the issue one-sidedly. At the institute, I studied classical history well, and I even loved it, but what about the "reasonable" alternative versions, I find it difficult.


    the creation of a new vision of historical distant is now engaged in a large historical enthusiasts. These are, of course, first of all the creators of the New Chronology of mathematics Fomenko and Nosovsky. Modern mathematical processing applied to the old historical records of observations of lunar eclipses allow us to conclude that the "ancient" ancient dates of the lunar eclipses do not correspond and should be considered no earlier than AD 900.
    Fomenko and then his co-author Nosovsky created mathematical methods for processing annalistic textual chronicles and obtained remarkable results. Financial and Mathematical Studies proved mathematically that the ancient catalog of Ptolemy was created not in hoary antiquity, but in the Middle Ages.
    And much, much that FINA could achieve by applying modern mat methods to the old historical chronology. It turned out to be WRONG.
    I recommend that you familiarize yourself with the works of the remarkable Russian scientist-encyclopedist 19-20v Alexander Morozov.
    Recently, the works of the professional historian Alexander Kas "The collapse of the Empire of the Russian Tsars" deserve to be noted. uses previously unused historical sources in the investigation of that period.
    http://www.chronologia.org/
    http://istclub.ru/
    http://razgovorchik.ru/index.php?s=06d5379dc80b1397df080606220f4ccd&act=idx
    get acquainted is informative.
    1. yurta2013
      yurta2013 2 June 2013 14: 28 New
      -1
      A story written by a mathematician without a historical background is roughly the same as a solution to a complicated mathematical problem proposed by a historian without a mathematical background.
  22. kavkaz8888
    kavkaz8888 1 June 2013 00: 42 New
    0
    We stuff in the search engine:
    Russia-Horde
    Tartary
    The story is true or fiction (Fomenko and Nosovsky)
    Ornelius (medieval cartographer) (very interesting maps)
    1. yurta2013
      yurta2013 2 June 2013 14: 20 New
      +1
      Fomenko and Nosovsky are mathematicians, not historians. In historical science, they are the same laymans as almost all the participants on this site. The negative side of freedom of speech today is the ability for all kinds of charlatans from science to print and sell their delusional works on an unlimited scale.
  23. bublic82009
    bublic82009 1 June 2013 00: 51 New
    0
    different stories about this battle are written by different scientists. the essence of one fragmentation destroys the state.
  24. Horde
    Horde 1 June 2013 00: 52 New
    0
    Quote: kavkaz8888
    Ornelius (

    ... Ortelius
  25. Old warrant officer
    Old warrant officer 1 June 2013 02: 42 New
    0
    "In general, there were few Siberian Russians, they made up the military-political elite of the created empire and were later assimilated by the masses of Mongoloids and Turks. At the same time, they gave a passionate impulse to the Turks. Their memory was preserved in the legends and tales of many peoples, which considered their ancestors light-eyed and fair-haired giants. "Giants" were considered Russes by the more puny representatives of the Arab and Mongol-Turkic world. "
    Wouldn't such a definition serve as an excuse for another round of separatism like "Rus-Pomors"? In the West, they try to use every clue to drive wedges between peoples in Russia, so the greatest care must be taken in such matters.
  26. Old warrant officer
    Old warrant officer 1 June 2013 02: 43 New
    -1
    "In general, there were few Siberian Russians, they made up the military-political elite of the created empire and were later assimilated by the masses of Mongoloids and Turks. At the same time, they gave a passionate impulse to the Turks. Their memory was preserved in the legends and tales of many peoples, which considered their ancestors light-eyed and fair-haired giants. "Giants" were considered Russes by the more puny representatives of the Arab and Mongol-Turkic world. "
    Wouldn't such a definition serve as an excuse for another round of separatism like "Rus-Pomors"? In the West, they try to use every clue to drive wedges between peoples in Russia, so the greatest care must be taken in such matters.
  27. barbiturate
    barbiturate 1 June 2013 07: 35 New
    0
    they invented some kind of yoke, lived together for centuries and here you are, it seems like someone attacked) well, it smells very hard of a bullshit, doesn't it? The usual showdown between the princes and their sidekicks from the steppe in the armies is full of both of these. At that time, no one had ever heard of any Russians and robbed the lands of their neighbors quite calmly, as these and these, and no one thought that we were Russian, but these were not.
  28. svp67
    svp67 1 June 2013 08: 30 New
    +1
    There are a lot of signs that history, alas, is repeating itself ...
  29. OLGRIN
    OLGRIN 1 June 2013 09: 47 New
    0
    Isn’t it funny for us to rock the fraternity ...
    "The Word about Igor's Regiment" - according to the time of writing, "The Word" refers to +1187 year.

    Why weren't there Russians then? Have already been. We were called Russians already during Oleg's campaign against Tsargrad (Constantinople) in 907. There is an opinion that they named it from the word "routs" (Varangian - rowers) because they came on boats. It seems to be not a docking, but if you read the text of the treaty dated 907 (Rus-Byzantium), then the names are all Viking:
    “We are from the sort of Russian. carls. Inegeld Farlof. Veremud. rulav. goudes | roadald. carn. frelav. rual. act. Truan. Lee | Dole Fost. stemid. even sent from the olga of the great prince roska and from all izh saut under the rook of his light and great prince. and his great boyars. ”
    Further in confirmation:
    “In the year 6415 (907). Oleg went to the Greeks, leaving Igor in Kiev; he took with him many Varangians, and Slovens, and miracles, and Krivichi, and Meru, and Drevlyans, and Radimichi, and Polyans, and northerners, and Vyatichi, and Croats, and Duleb, and Tiver, known as tolmaks: these were all called Greeks "Great Scythian". And with all these Oleg went on horses and in ships; and there were ships of 2000. And he came to Constantinople: the Greeks closed the Court, and the city was closed. And Oleg went ashore, and began to fight, and he committed many murders in the vicinity of the city to the Greeks, and they set up many chambers, and the churches were burned. And those who were captured were excised, others were tortured, others were shot, and some were thrown into the sea, and many other evils were done by the Russians to the Greeks, as enemies usually do. ”
    - "The Tale of Bygone Years" is the oldest surviving Old Russian chronicle of the XNUMXth century.
    It is this "Great Scythian" that leads us to an understanding of the origins. After all, our common great-great-ancestors are Aryans for: Slavs, Germans, Indians, Iranians and even modern Kazakhs (they are descendants of the Türks), and the Scythians are direct descendants of the Aryans, and the Türks are the descendants of the Scythians through the Huns. The Aryans presumably settled from the Urals, respectively, it was the Russians who did not come to the territory of modern Russia from anywhere, the Russians (well, not yet Russians at that time) always lived here.
    In 4-8 centuries, the Türks (natives of Eastern Altai) created a huge state (Turkic El of the XNUMXst and XNUMXnd) from the Pacific Ocean to the Black Sea. It is believed that the Koreans (they are also from Altai) are to some extent our relatives and not the Chinese.
    Timuchin (Genghis Khan) was a descendant of the Turks. He simply recreated this state within the same limits. The fact that he is a Turk is confirmed by the Chinese chroniclers who were sent to participate in the celebrations on the occasion of the announcement of Timuchin the Great Khan (1206). As they recorded in their chronicles, his oath began with the words: "I swear by the great blue sky ...". Only a Tengrian could say such words, and Tengrianism (worship of the spirit of Tengri) is the religion of the Turks.
    And if we summarize all this information, then we get such a picture as it is described in this article.
    Please note that all these are only my conclusions, made from everything that I read, saw and understood.
    And what happened on Kalka is science, but even after 900 years we remember Alyosha and Dobrynya.
    1. Horde
      Horde 1 June 2013 10: 17 New
      +1
      The Tale of Bygone Years is the oldest surviving ancient Russian chronicle of the XNUMXth century.


      there is no such chronicle "The Tale of Bygone Years", there is the Radziwil List, the Ipatiev List, the Lavrentev List, the Moscow Academic List, all of these lists presumably were copied from an UNSAFE source having the general name The Tale of Bygone Years.

      The word about Igor's regiment "- according to the time of writing" The word "refers to the year 1187-1188.


      The first word about Igor’s regiment was found by Musin-Pushkin in the late 18th century and of course the list. The style of the poetic work was very different from other works dating from the same time 12c so that the work is unique. There is an assumption that the Word was created in the creative laboratory of Catherine .
      1. OLGRIN
        OLGRIN 1 June 2013 10: 25 New
        0
        I agree that the collection.
        But how to understand: deducted from a non-preserved source? Or yes or no.
        1. Horde
          Horde 1 June 2013 10: 32 New
          +1
          Quote: OLGRIN
          I agree that the collection.
          But how to understand: deducted from a non-preserved source? Or yes or no.


          What's not clear? there is no CHRONICLES of Nestor 12v, but there are Lists with a murky origin 16v, 17v and so on ...
          1. OLGRIN
            OLGRIN 1 June 2013 11: 31 New
            +1
            Then it turns out that there was no Tale, There was no Word about Igor’s regiment, and it’s impossible to quote or read them.
            And then where is our ancient history?
            Well then, you need to read: Read the intelligence reports of Plano Carpini 1180-1252, Wilhelm de Rubruck 1253-1255, Dominican Andre 1245. Oh, they are exactly in the subject, who is Oleg, who is Igor, and who went where.
            1. Horde
              Horde 1 June 2013 13: 07 New
              +1
              Quote: OLGRIN
              when it turns out that there was no Tale, there was no Word about Igor’s regiment, and you cannot quote or read them.


              Our history is of course there, but there you have another Rembrandt 1632 portrait of a noble Slav, pay attention to how our ancestors turbaned, from the Russian word brow, an emblem with a crescent on the chest, a crescent-an imperial symbol. And the empire was supposedly called the MOSCOW KINGDOM.
              Were the SILNERS of our ancestors represented in those days?
              Who is this "noble Slav" - the name appeared only later, so the paintings are not called, and this Slav is probably invested with power, possibly the imperial governor in Holland.
      2. yurta2013
        yurta2013 2 June 2013 14: 04 New
        0
        Quote: Horde
        There is an assumption that the Word was created in the creative laboratory of Catherine2.

        Yeah, you still say that Catherine the 2nd was the direct heiress of the rulers of the Scythians-Rus and secretly wrote the history of ancient Russia.
    2. yurta2013
      yurta2013 2 June 2013 14: 13 New
      0
      It seems that you did not quite correctly understand the main idea of ​​this article. Its author, the ancestors of all Indo-European (and not only Indo-European) peoples, considers it to be the Rus (Scythian-Rus), that is, actually Russian, without any transitional stages. This explains why there are some common words in Russian and other languages ​​of Eurasia, as well as other minor coincidences in the language of history and culture of these peoples.
  30. dixonis
    dixonis 1 June 2013 10: 07 New
    0
    What they got to, it’s necessary))). Soon all nations will come from the Rus. This article still smacks of that sweetheart. But what about the fact that, according to science, the Scythians-Sarmatians-Alans were one Indo-European Iranian super-people, like the Slavs, for example.
    1. OLGRIN
      OLGRIN 1 June 2013 10: 20 New
      +2
      Yes, that is right. Just do not come from the Russians but take it from the Aryans.
      Therefore, the Nazis and Annenerbe created, wanted to draw strength in the ancient heritage and rights to the whole world.
      They just smeared with brown shit and the swastika and the Aryan race.
    2. Horde
      Horde 1 June 2013 10: 27 New
      +1

      But what about the fact that, according to science, the Scythians-Sarmatians-Alans were one Indo-European Iranian super-people,


      you can be stunned how much stupidity has been done up and Indian, and Iranian, and European, and all in one pile, and this is called science? laughing

      What they got to, it’s necessary))). Soon all nations will come from the Rus.


      it’s nice to come from such a people. smile

    3. Horde
      Horde 1 June 2013 10: 46 New
      +1
      Quote: dixonis
      But what about the fact that, according to science, the Scythians-Sarmatians-Alans were one Indo-European Iranian super-people, like the Slavs, for example.


      incomprehensible to the mind, how could Russians come from such peoples?
      What kind of science is this?
      1. IllI4
        IllI4 1 June 2013 11: 40 New
        +2
        Here is some interesting material with possible answers to your question.

        http://gklimov.livejournal.com/34762.html
        1. OLGRIN
          OLGRIN 1 June 2013 11: 50 New
          0
          Could not open the link, please specify.
          1. IllI4
            IllI4 1 June 2013 16: 08 New
            +1
            Google "Ancient Russians Discovered in Pakistan". This is what the article is called by reference. Will give it out immediately.
        2. Horde
          Horde 1 June 2013 12: 58 New
          +1
          I saw this photo of a Kalashka girl. From the point of view of HX, it is easy to explain until the middle of the 19th century. Central Asia, Afghanistan, Pakistan is an Independent Tartar, part of the Great Tartar of the Russian state of the fragment of the Horde Empire.
          And in the 18th century on the territory of India there was a state of the Mughals (Mongols), also the Russian state (in control) was destroyed by the British during the conquest of India (sepoy uprising.
          Well, the Tishniks, too, are not asleep, they have come up with a theory of "Indo-European peoples" and all the intersections and coincidences in the images of peoples, cultural coincidences are explained as follows - "everything appeared from one progenitor of the Indo-European" - this is the official science.
          1. IllI4
            IllI4 1 June 2013 16: 12 New
            0
            And what does HX mean, and who are THIS people? I'm not quite in the subject)
            1. Horde
              Horde 1 June 2013 16: 36 New
              +1
              HX is the new chronology of Fomenko, Nosovsky.
              TI - traditional historians followers of medieval monks - scholastics of Scaliger and Petavius
  31. OLGRIN
    OLGRIN 1 June 2013 11: 10 New
    +2
    So it’s not us who came from them, rather the opposite.
    PS, traveled a couple of times on a bike from Lhasa to Kathmandu. It is great because it gives almost full contact with the country (unlike an airplane or a train), I noticed such a difference: in China, Tibet there are no loungers along the road, everyone is doing something. As soon as you cross the border with Nepal, there are plenty of loafers. In India, generally Achtung.
    1. Horde
      Horde 1 June 2013 11: 20 New
      +1
      Quote: OLGRIN
      As soon as you cross the border with Nepal, there are plenty of loafers. In India, generally Achtung.


      so here they are all yogis, they feed on the light of the sun, therefore everything material is deeply alien laughing , but seriously, then all this pack that is the caste of yogi-priests should be kept by local peasants, cows should not be touched, taboos, monkeys do what they want, therefore everyone around is malnourished, skinny, but at the same time I do not forget to produce the same poverty.
  32. yurta2013
    yurta2013 2 June 2013 13: 54 New
    0
    All kinds of nonsense you can see on the Internet. Anyone who has read at least two lines from the first pseudoscientific book that comes to their eyes wants to feel like a historian or ethnologist. The main content of this article fits into the first seven paragraphs. The rest is a simple retelling of the "official" history of this event, which was sworn by the author himself. The essence of the article lies in the assertion that for Russia the most politically beneficial myth is that all the peoples inhabiting it are direct relatives, since they come from a common ancestor - the ancient Rus. There is no doubt that such a myth would certainly be very useful to domestic political strategists to unite the nation, but what does science have to do with history? The main purpose of any science is to get closer to the truth. But the truth is, just, the author of this article is not at all interested.
  33. Marat
    Marat 15 June 2013 15: 58 New
    0
    It turns out that the Russians did everything in order to lose the battle ... It remains only to guess that there was a Mongol with the troops, force the Russian Kalka with all his might ...