On the projects of Soviet heavy cruisers with 220-mm guns

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On the projects of Soviet heavy cruisers with 220-mm guns

The Project 66 cruisers were planned to be armed with 220 mm guns, which were not available in either the Russian or Soviet navy had not been used before. Let's look at where the idea of ​​arming our ships came from. artillery of this caliber.

Heavy cruiser project 82


As is well known, before the Great Patriotic War, the USSR developed both heavy and light cruisers. Moreover, while the first light cruiser designs (Project 26 and 26-bis) carried 180mm guns, which were quite unusual for the navy, the subsequent Project 68 already featured a 152mm main caliber, standard for this class of ships. It should be noted that the transition from 180mm to 152mm was not final, as plans subsequently surfaced repeatedly to arm light cruisers with 180mm guns, although these plans were never realized.

As for the heavy ships of this class, their mission was believed to be to destroy "Washington" cruisers armed with 203-mm artillery. That's why our Project 69 heavy cruisers were armed with 305-mm guns already at the design stage—their shells were undoubtedly capable of quickly disabling and destroying a relatively lightly protected cruiser with a displacement of 10–12 tons.


The problem, however, was that the ship, armed with 305mm guns, was much larger than the "Washington" cruisers, but significantly weaker than small battleships such as the French Dunkerque, the German Scharnhorst, and the battlecruisers Kongo and Repulse, although it was already approaching their displacement. A rather predictable desire arose to make the Project 69 cruiser more or less able to fight on equal terms with these ships. This was realized, but it resulted in the standard displacement of the future "Washington scourge" increasing to over 35 tons, effectively making the ship too large and expensive for large-scale production. And the large fleet planned by I.V. Stalin required many heavy cruisers.

So the idea of ​​creating a cruiser whose capabilities would fall somewhere between the Project 68 light cruisers and the Project 69 heavy cruisers was a natural one. And then our sailors got their hands on the German Lützow—an Admiral Hipper-class heavy cruiser acquired from Nazi Germany...

Naturally, under such conditions, the emergence of a "medium" cruiser project was only a matter of time. And just before the war, on May 15, 1941, the People's Commissar of the Navy approved the operational-tactical assignment (OTZ) for the Project 82 heavy cruiser. In terms of armament, the ship was almost a complete copy of the Lützow—the same 8×203mm guns in twin turrets (although prior to this, all projects had favored triple turrets) and 12×100mm dual-purpose guns.

Other anti-aircraft and torpedo armament was somewhat weakened: 12x37mm anti-aircraft guns and 2x3 torpedo tubes on the Project 82 versus 12x37mm, 10x20mm, and 4x3 torpedo tubes on the Lützow. On the other hand, given the extremely low rate of fire of the German 37mm anti-aircraft guns, our option seemed undesirable, although a dozen small-caliber anti-aircraft guns were, of course, far too few for a large ship.

But in other performance characteristics, the Project 82 cruiser differed significantly from the Lützow. Firstly, N. G. Kuznetsov wanted a cruiser with speeds superior to those of most light cruisers: the Project 82 was to reach 36 knots, even faster than the Project 68 light cruisers, whose speed was specified at 34,5 knots at the time of laying. The Lützow, without afterburners, had a specified speed of 32 knots. The cruising range was also expected to be increased: while the Hippers were supposed to have a range of 6800 miles at 19 knots, but in reality it was much less, the Project 82 was required to reach 10,000 miles at 20 knots.



In addition, the People's Commissar of the Navy wanted to obtain a very decently protected ship - the sides, beams and conning tower of the Project 82 cruiser were to be covered with armor providing protection from 203-mm shells at a distance of 60 kbt and above, and the deck was to "withstand" 250 kg of aerial bombs.

When assessing the Admiral Hipper-class cruisers, it's often noted that while this cruiser didn't boast exceptional armament or armor (the latter, incidentally, is highly debatable), the Germans invested heavily in its fire control systems—and this is indeed true. However, the USSR, too, traditionally placed a great deal of emphasis on fire control, and upon acquiring the Lützow, they sought to adopt all of its fire control system features. Therefore, there's no reason to believe that the Project 82 cruiser's fire control system was planned to be more modest than what was intended to be installed on the Lützow.

In short, the 1941 heavy cruiser design specifications made no compromises—the requirement was to design a very fast and extremely well-protected cruiser with the armament of a standard Washington cruiser, but with a highly sophisticated fire control system. In terms of its combined combat capabilities, Project 82 was expected to leave the Hipper-class cruisers far behind.


The result was immediate: the ship's displacement (apparently standard), meeting the OTZ of May 15, 1941, was to be 25,000 tons, compared to 14,990 tons for the Lützow. This increase in displacement was, of course, entirely predictable, as a cruiser always represents a compromise between combat potential and size, and the OTZ, other than armament, made no compromises. But for a 25,000-ton cruiser, the 8×203mm main caliber seemed completely inadequate.

Naturally, with this result, the naval command faced a choice. They had to either reduce the requirements for armor, speed, and range to a level that would allow the ship to be designed with a relatively cruising displacement. Or they had to accept the enormous displacement, but then strengthen the main battery.

Naturally, the second path was chosen, resulting in 210-230 mm guns being considered for the Project 82 cruiser's main battery. In 1944, N. G. Kuznetsov approved the design specifications for the Project 82 cruiser, which significantly rebalanced its characteristics.

The anti-aircraft armament was significantly enhanced, now to include 16×130mm general-purpose guns, 32 anti-aircraft machine guns of 45mm and 12×25mm calibers. While the displacement remained within 25,000–26,000 tons, the speed was sharply reduced to 30 knots. The cruiser's main battery, however, was to consist of nine 220mm guns. This is where things really begin. history development of heavy cruisers with 220 mm artillery, which were included in the first version of our shipbuilding program for 1946–1955.


The initial version of the naval shipbuilding program for 1946–1955 included 12 heavy cruisers with 220-mm artillery; N. G. Kuznetsov later reduced this number to 10. At the same time, according to the esteemed A. M. Vasiliev and A. B. Morin, Project 82 was modified yet again—its displacement was reduced to 20–22 tons, though I, unfortunately, do not know the exact reason. Interestingly, this heavy cruiser design survived the first meeting with I. V. Stalin, which N. G. Kuznetsov attended. Stalin insisted on building heavy cruisers with 305-mm main guns, but N. G. Kuznetsov defended the 220-mm heavy cruisers.

Nevertheless, the Project 82 heavy cruiser did not become the forerunner of the Project 66 cruiser. When I. S. Yumashev became Commander-in-Chief of the Navy on January 17, 1947, a meeting on naval matters was held just a few days later. At this meeting, I. V. Stalin again proposed arming the Project 82 cruisers with 305 mm guns, and I. S. Yumashev did not oppose this. In the summer of 1947, three variants of Project 82 were prepared, of which the smallest had 220 mm artillery, 150 mm of side armor, a speed of 33,5 knots, and a standard displacement of 30,000 tons, and the heaviest had 305 mm artillery, 200 mm of side armor, and a speed of 32 knots. and a displacement of 40,000 tons. The third option was intermediate - it had 305 mm guns, but the thickness of the side armor was 150 mm, a speed of 32,5 knots and a displacement of 38,000 tons.

When these designs were considered, the heaviest version of the Project 82 cruiser, with 200 mm of armor and 305 mm guns, naturally emerged victorious. This design later evolved into the Stalingrad-class cruisers. The version with 220 mm guns was rejected and never revisited.

Second approach


This may seem strange, and indeed it is, but another project for a cruiser with 220 mm artillery appeared among our sailors during the development of a subclass of light cruisers.

It all started out quite well and logically. Just before the war, Project 68 light cruisers, very good for their time, were laid down. They combined a powerful (by subclass standards) armament of 12 x 152mm guns with a high (but not excessive!) muzzle velocity, an acceptable displacement of 10,000 tons, very well-developed armor of decent thickness (100mm side), and a speed of 34,5 knots.

But during the war, Project 68 had, of course, become somewhat obsolete. The anti-aircraft armament needed to be reinforced, along with the installation of radar and other equipment, but it was no longer possible to fit all of this into the old hull. So even the modernized Project 68K Chapayev-class cruisers didn't fully meet the navy's requirements. To remedy this, the development of Project 68-bis cruisers was undertaken, but simultaneously with the ship's reinforcement. weapons and the equipment grew and its displacement...

At the same time, our sailors initially understood that a light cruiser shouldn't be too large: therefore, it was decided to complete the five Project 68K cruisers already laid down before the war, then lay down seven Project 68-bis cruisers, but then move on to the more modest Project 65 light cruisers. Their main caliber was to be reduced to 9×152 mm guns, and their displacement was hoped to be reduced to 8000–8500 tons.

The plan was sound, but, as often happens, the execution was lacking. The Project 65 cruiser's displacement quickly skyrocketed, and despite the sailors and designers exploring numerous options, all of them more or less corresponded to the 68-bis design, leaving no reason to switch to a new cruiser design. Ultimately, at the same meeting in January 1947, where Joseph Vissarionovich insisted on developing a Project 82 heavy cruiser with 305mm guns, it was decided to suspend work on Project 65 and expand the Project 68-bis cruiser series to 25 units.


Despite the mothballing of Project 65, the idea of ​​creating a light cruiser with a combination of performance characteristics significantly superior to Project 68-bis still lingered in the minds of the sailors. Therefore, in 1947, a new design specification was drawn up for a light cruiser with a main battery of 9×180mm guns in triple turrets, an anti-aircraft armament consisting of 8×130mm dual-purpose guns, 24×45mm guns, and the same number of 25mm automatic guns. The armor was to protect against 152mm armor-piercing shells, a speed of 33 knots, and a cruising range of 6000 miles at 18 knots.

This would seem to be no big deal, but to meet these requirements and accommodate post-war equipment, the standard displacement of this light cruiser reached 17,000–18,000 tons. This was a significant increase, even compared to the rather immodest 13,230 tons of the Project 68-bis cruisers' standard displacement, and it is therefore not surprising that the government rejected it, arguing that the project's combat capabilities did not correspond to its displacement.

And that's when perhaps the most amusing iteration in the history of Russian light cruiser design was undertaken. The design was too weak for its displacement, which had already far exceeded the limits set for light cruisers? So let's make it stronger!

In fairness, however, it should be noted that an attempt was made to combine the increased armament of the new light cruiser design with a reduction in its displacement. The design specifications for a light cruiser with enhanced armament and lighter armor were approved by I.S. Yumashev on October 30, 1947. According to the specifications, the cruiser was to have the following characteristics:

Main caliber: 3x3x220mm guns, 125 rounds per barrel;

Long-range anti-aircraft caliber (LRAC) - 5x2x130 mm, but it was proposed to work on installing a sixth turret, ammunition - 250 rounds/barrel;

Anti-aircraft guns - 4x4x45 mm with 1000 rounds of ammunition per barrel;

Torpedo and aviation weapons - no;

Armor: side, beams, main caliber barbettes - 60 mm, deck - 50 mm, conning tower - 20 mm;

Speed: 37 knots full, 18 knots operational-economic speed;

The power plant consisted of 3 turbines, 55,000 hp each, for a total of 165,000 hp. A diesel engine was also provided for operational and economic operation;

Fuel reserves: for the main boilers – for 6 hours of full sailing (a total of 222 miles!), for the diesel plant – 4000 miles. With the combined use of the main machinery and diesel, a cruising range of 6000 miles was expected to be achieved;

Seaworthiness - must ensure the use of weapons up to and including sea state 8;

Standard displacement is 15,000 tons.

In other words, the actual design was that the diesel engine was the core of the propulsion system, which was supposed to "pull" the 165 horsepower of conventional turbines, with the latter being used only in combat. The scheme is certainly ingenious, if one doesn't remember that similar German ideas, implemented in their K-class and Leipzig-class light cruisers, didn't prove as effective as expected.

And one more thing. Much is said today about how the Soviet Navy, immediately after the war, was replenished with obviously obsolete ships, that our naval theory was ossified and unresponsive to the experience of war, and that it largely ignored scientific and technological progress. Well, here's evidence of the broad-mindedness of our military theorists and analysts: according to the OTZ of October 30, 1947, designers were instructed to develop the installation of A. Lyulka's jet boosters on the cruiser to temporarily increase speed to 39-40 knots for 2-3 hours!

Checkmate to anyone who doubted!

And what's interesting is that none of the above was the brainchild of a single individual. The design specifications for such a light cruiser were based on the results of a study of the tactical properties of light cruisers conducted by the Naval Academy. It's a relief that no one thought of designing a light cruiser with hydrofoils or even one capable of flying over islands and isolated areas of land.

But seriously, in a sense, Soviet naval thought returned to its roots—the ideas that underpinned the design of the first Soviet Project 26 cruisers. High speed, very weak armor (which was improved on the 26-bis), but at the same time, a main caliber that was more powerful than the 150-152 mm guns that were the generally accepted standard for light cruisers.

But in the pre-war years, the parameters of the Project 26 cruisers were fully justified by the realities in which they were created. At that time, our designers were not yet ready to create modern cruiser designs from scratch, so they drew on Italian experience.

The Italian light cruiser design we acquired naturally imposed certain limitations, and the industry wasn't yet ready to build large warships—hence the displacement restrictions. The need to operate in concert with destroyers—hence the high speed. The anticipated engagement with superior enemy forces under the concept of concentrated attack—hence the 180mm caliber—and at that time, we had no other modern guns suitable for these cruisers.

But what considerations guided our sailors when issuing the OTZ for a light cruiser with 220mm artillery, a speed of 37 knots, essentially splinter-proof armor, and a standard displacement of 15,000 tons? I don't know for sure, but I can try to guess.

When N. G. Kuznetsov presented his naval program, it included a considerable number of heavy artillery ships, but after the "chainsaw massacre" perpetrated by the shipbuilding industry's leadership, only four heavy and 30 light cruisers remained. Meanwhile, the US and British navies, including the ships under construction, could have had up to 40 heavy and large cruisers, not counting the light cruisers, by the time our 1946-1955 shipbuilding program was completed. Consequently, even if our cruisers had somehow managed to engage in artillery combat with the squadrons of our "sworn friends," they would certainly have been confronted by units including heavy cruisers, to which the light cruisers of Projects 68K and 68-bis were clearly inferior.

Of course, if these considerations were followed, the most logical course would have been to revise the program, reducing the number of light cruisers in favor of heavy ones. But the sailors were powerless to do anything about it, as I. I. Nosenko categorically declared that the industry would not be able to build more than 30 light cruisers, and I. V. Stalin agreed.

What choice did our sailors have? Of course, they could try to "slip" a heavy cruiser into the design as a light cruiser, but it was clear that this would require sacrificing some characteristics. Such a ship clearly couldn't be too large. It can be assumed that 15,000 tons of standard displacement was the limit that would allow the designed ship to be classified as a light cruiser. The powerful 220 mm guns provided an advantage in artillery firepower, but sacrificing anti-aircraft fire was impossible—only armor and speed remained. However, seriously protecting a ship with 220 mm main guns and a displacement of 15,000 tons was clearly unrealistic, while maintaining speed would allow the cruiser to operate alongside destroyers.

Whether our sailors reasoned this way or not, I don't know. But while the OTS itself seems grotesque, it may have had some sound basis, at least at the conceptual level.

KRL-22


In accordance with the OTZ dated October 30.10.1947, 6, work began on the KRL-22 (light cruiser-22). The design bureaus of the Central Research Institute of the Air Defense Forces and TsKB-17 developed 20 variants, six of which were unconventional and deviated from the OTZ requirements. The conclusion, however, was quite predictable.

Provided the OTK requirements for armament, speed, and armor are met, the standard displacement of a light cruiser would be 19,000–19,500 tons. However, this would be with a traditional hull architecture typical of light cruisers, which lacks any significant protection against underwater explosions, which is hardly acceptable for a ship of this size. With a "traditional" hull, the KRL-222 could have the following performance characteristics:

Artillery - 9×220 mm, 10×130 mm, 16×45 mm;

Armor: side 60 mm, deck 50 mm, anti-splinter bulkhead 20 mm;

Speed: 37 knots with a propulsion plant power of 220,000 hp (4×55,000 hp);

Standard displacement – ​​19,500 t.

A more balanced version, which provided side and bottom protection from high-power explosions, as well as armor capable of protecting the ship from 152-mm armor-piercing shells, looked like this:

Artillery - 9×220 mm, 12×130 mm, 24×45 mm;

Armor: main armor deck and side armor belt - 60 mm, "citadel armored screen" and upper deck - 30 mm, anti-splinter "pickup deck" and, apparently, bulkheads of the same purpose behind the main armor belt - 20 mm. As for the citadel armored screen - apparently, the 60 mm armor belt was internal, that is, recessed into the hull, and the 30 mm "screen" was light armor plating, probably designed to detonate high-explosive shells and remove armor-piercing caps from armor-piercing shells;

Speed: 35 knots with a propulsion plant power of 220,000 hp (4×55,000 hp);

Standard displacement: 22,000 tons. A light cruiser. I imagine that at that moment, somewhere, the two surviving Sevastopol-class battleships, whose standard displacement at the time of their laying down was quite comparable, quietly began to cry.

Following this, 40 more KRL-22 variants were developed, but their conclusions remained the same. The KRL-22, with its traditional light cruiser hull design and 9×220mm guns, was only feasible with a standard displacement of 18,000–19,000 tons. Reducing the displacement below this limit would only be possible by reducing armament or completely eliminating armor and underwater protection. At the same time, the lack of adequate underwater protection on a ship with a standard displacement of nearly 20,000 tons was considered a significant drawback.

Ultimately, three of the best options were selected. The most promising, from the naval specialists' point of view, was the design that called for 9×220-mm, 10×130-mm, and 16×45-mm guns and anti-aircraft machine guns, 100-mm armor on the sides, 65-mm on the deck, 20-mm on the sides outside the citadel, and a splinter deck, as well as mine protection—from explosions at the side and at a depth of 5 m under the FAB-500 bottom. It was assumed that the armor would protect against 152-mm shells at a distance of 70–100 kbt at all course angles. With a propulsion plant of 260,000 hp (4×65,000 hp), the speed was to be 36 knots, and the cruising range was to be 6000 miles at 18 knots. The ship's standard displacement was 19,000 tons. It was recommended that further development reduce the displacement by another thousand tons, and increase the number of 45mm anti-aircraft gun barrels to 24.

Of interest is another of these three variants, which envisioned a radical reduction in displacement—to 10,800 tons. The hull was standard for a light cruiser, without advanced underwater protection. The propulsion plant was 165,000 hp (3 x 55,000 hp), producing 37 knots. The cruising range was 5000 miles at 18 knots. Armor was apparently at the level of the original OTZ, with 60 mm sides and 50 mm deck. This radical reduction in displacement was achieved by reducing the main caliber guns from nine to six. However, the artillery arrangement was not planned to mimic "pocket battleships," but rather to be placed in three twin-gun turrets.

However, the "small" variant wasn't even considered by the Main Naval Staff. As for the "most promising" variant, it was quite rightly noted that its armor protection was very weak, and that upgrading it would result in the ship's displacement approaching that of the Project 82 heavy cruisers. Therefore, it was decided that continuing work on the KRL-22 was impractical, and work on this ship was discontinued.

Thus, neither the Project 82 heavy cruisers nor the "light" cruisers developed under the designation KRL-22 served as prototypes for the Project 66 medium cruiser. However, during the development of Projects 82 and 22, our designers and sailors certainly gained considerable experience in balancing the performance characteristics of a cruiser armed with 220mm guns. And this experience undoubtedly proved very helpful in the design of the Project 66 medium cruisers.

At least, no one has proposed installing jet boosters on Project 66 ships.

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  1. +3
    30 July 2026 07: 16
    The problem, however, was that a ship with 305mm guns was much larger than the Washington cruisers, but at the same time noticeably weaker than small battleships such as the French Dunkerque, the German Scharnhorst, and the battlecruisers Kongo and Repulse, although it was already beginning to approach them in displacement.

    It is worth mentioning the American subclass of large (battle) cruisers Alaska with 9 305mm (3x3) guns.
    Andrey, thank you for continuing the series, I liked it.
    1. +2
      30 July 2026 08: 47
      Good afternoon!
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      Worth mentioning is the American subclass of large (battle) cruisers, Alaska

      I mentioned it earlier, but they had nothing to do with Project 69, since they were built after the project was formed.
  2. + 10
    30 July 2026 07: 50
    It's somewhat reminiscent of the Svetlana design before WWI. They so wanted something "unparalleled" that they had to fight without any light cruisers at all. sad
    1. +3
      30 July 2026 09: 14
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      It's somewhat reminiscent of the design of the Svetlana before WWI.

      Of course, dear Ivan:)))) But at least here we still got some cruisers - 68K, 68bis
  3. +1
    30 July 2026 08: 25
    Apparently, 8" guns were needed to increase the range. After all, the cruiser "Kirov" with 180 mm guns went down in history as a light cruiser, although its armament was closer to heavy.
    1. +3
      30 July 2026 11: 42
      Quote: dragon772
      Apparently, the 8" guns were needed to increase the range.

      The Soviet 180/57 B-1-P had a slightly further range (approximately 25-30 cables) than the German 20,3 cm SK C/34.

      Quote: dragon772
      After all, the cruiser "Kirov" with its 180 mm guns went down in history as a light cruiser, although its armament was closer to heavy.

      Formally (according to the contractual system) it was considered heavy, but the USSR had its own division of ships into classes.
      1. 0
        30 July 2026 12: 12
        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
        The Soviet 180/57 B-1-P had a slightly further range (approximately 25-30 cables) than the German 20,3 cm SK C/34.

        I disagree. Ours hit the maximum altitude of 28,862 m (920 m/s initial), while the German one, at 37 degrees elevation, seemed to go over 30 km.
        1. +3
          30 July 2026 12: 57
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          I do not agree.

          Here you need either a cross or panties... ;)
          An initial velocity of 920 m/s was achieved with a reinforced combat charge, which at an elevation angle of 57 degrees gave a range of 36580 m.
          A range of 28862 m was achieved when firing a live charge (initial velocity of 800 m/s) at an elevation angle of 48 degrees.

          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          The German one at 37 degrees elevation seemed to be going 30 km

          With brand new liners, the firing range was approximately 36000 m, with "run-in" ones - 33500 m.
          1. +1
            30 July 2026 13: 14
            Quote: Macsen_Wledig
            An initial velocity of 920 m/s was achieved with a reinforced combat charge, which at an elevation angle of 57 degrees gave a range of 36580 m.

            And at 50 degrees - 37,677 m. This is my mistake, I looked in the wrong place - 28,862 - this is at 800 m/s
            Quote: Macsen_Wledig
            With brand new liners, the firing range was approximately 36000 m, with "run-in" ones - 33500 m.

            But that's at 37 degrees. The B-1-P has a range of 35,117 m at 37 degrees for 18 minutes.
            1. +2
              30 July 2026 13: 27
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              But that's at 37 degrees. The B-1-P has a range of 35,117 m at 37 degrees for 18 minutes.

              The Germans didn't need more. Even 37 degrees was too much. :)
              Not only did they not like over-the-horizon shooting and only started using it in 44-45 when shooting at the shore, but they also did not practice shooting at a partially hidden target.
              1. +1
                30 July 2026 13: 38
                Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                The Germans didn't need more. Even 37 degrees was too much. :)

                I agree, but we were talking about the gun's range, and it should be compared either as the maximum overall or at the same elevation angles. And for the German gun, as I understand it, the firing range is given as the maximum of the Hipper at an elevation of 37 degrees?
                1. +2
                  30 July 2026 13: 51
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  And for the Germans, as I understand it, the firing range is given as the maximum for the "Hippers" at an angle of 37 degrees?

                  Yes, for the reason that this was the maximum vertical aiming angle of the Drch.Tr. LC/34 turret mounts.
                  The Germans also installed the 20,3 cm SK C/34 on railway transporters, but I have not come across any data on their ballistics.
        2. +1
          30 July 2026 13: 17
          We collaborated with the Italians before the war; our light cruisers, like our destroyers, reflected the Italian school of shipbuilding. As for the 180mm guns, it's questionable whether they were worth it. They suffered from poor barrel life, problematic feed and loading mechanisms, weak protection, and cramped turret mounts, partly due to the placement of three barrels in a single cradle. Acceptable accuracy could only be achieved with minimal barrel wear, which was quickly lost when they wore out quickly. The pursuit of records in speed and firing range also characterized the ships of the Italian Navy. Even on the Littorio-class battleships, increasing the range of the 380mm guns yielded no results, as accuracy was essentially sacrificed for record-breaking range. The drawings show "brothers" of an Italian cruiser and ours.
          1. +2
            30 July 2026 13: 40
            Quote: Per se.
            As for the 180 mm guns, the question is whether it was worth doing.

            Definitely:))) There were no others.
            Quote: Per se.
            Low barrel life,

            It's normal. It's just that we usually write about the enhanced combat version, but at a standard combat speed of 800 m/s, the survivability was quite acceptable.
            Quote: Per se.
            problematic feeding and loading mechanisms

            They would have been the same for the 152mm turret - after all, it’s the first time in first class.
            1. 0
              30 July 2026 19: 10
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Definitely:))) There were no others.

              What about the Vickers 203/50s, along with the twin-gun turrets from the Andrei and Pavel? Wouldn't it have been easier to add another 5 calibers to the barrel than to design an artillery system from scratch?
              1. +1
                30 July 2026 20: 12
                Quote: clou
                and the Vickers 203/50 together with the two-gun turrets from Andrei and Pavel?

                It's just old stuff.
                Quote: clou
                Wouldn't it have been easier to add another 5 calibers to the barrel than to design an artillery system from scratch?

                Maybe it's simpler, but the issue is different: they didn't add more, but went with the 180mm. And when the question of new KRLs arose, there was nothing else available except the 180mm. If they'd gone with the 203mm, it would have been 203mm and nothing else.
                1. +1
                  31 July 2026 02: 13
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  If they had taken up the 203mm, it would have been 203mm and there would have been nothing else:))))))

                  There was also the Tsarist 254/45 with a pretty good shell. In general, the Red Army and Red Navy, both before and after the war, were engaged in endless artillery research, both with very limited resources. They kept trying to invent a similar artillery system from scratch and ended up with nothing.
                  1. +2
                    31 July 2026 07: 42
                    Quote: clou
                    There were also the Tsarist 254/45 with a very good projectile.

                    But the 203mm and 254mm guns were already old. Even the far-from-stellar British 8-inch gun, which armed the likes of Kents and Yorks, was as bad as our 8-inch/50mm. Something new was still needed.
                    Quote: clou
                    They were trying to come up with an analogous artillery system from scratch.

                    In the case of the 180mm, we ended up with a very powerful, good gun. It's no wonder the sailors wanted to return to it after WWII. And as for other artillery, the overall picture is quite good. Consider, for example, that the Soviet Navy entered WWII as one of the world's leaders in rapid-fire automatic weapons... On land, things were pretty good, too.
                    1. +2
                      31 July 2026 14: 10
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Let's remember, for example, that the USSR Navy entered WWII as almost the world leader in rapid-fire automatic weapons...

                      You're exaggerating a bit... at the beginning of the war, the main "large-caliber" small-caliber anti-aircraft gun was the 21-K "forty-five"; rearmament to the 37-mm began in the fall of 41...
                      1. 0
                        31 July 2026 14: 40
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        You're going a bit too far...

                        At the start of WWII, we had 133 70-Ks. How many fleets could boast that?
                      2. +2
                        31 July 2026 14: 49
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        At the beginning of WWII we had 133 70-K.

                        Can I have a list of the ship's personnel?
                      3. 0
                        31 July 2026 15: 38
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Can I have a list of the ship's personnel?

                        You need to collect statistics on the ships, but I haven't done that. And not all 70-k could have been installed on the ships yet.
                      4. +3
                        31 July 2026 15: 43
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And not all 70-k could have already been installed on ships

                        That's what I'm getting at... :)
                        There could have been a lot of machine guns, but not on ships.
                      5. 0
                        31 July 2026 15: 45
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        There could have been a lot of machine guns, but not on ships.

                        Of course, but they existed, and were installed on ships whenever possible, but to find out when - you'd have to delve into the archives, I don't think such information is on the surface.
                    2. 0
                      1 August 2026 17: 28
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Only the 203mm and 254mm - all of these were already old guns.

                      The guns were old, but the shells were quite good. It's unclear why they needed to invent new calibers when the existing ones were in use. Incidentally, Project 69, for example, started with a 9x254 caliber, didn't it? They only later decided to improve it and beef it up to the size of a battleship.
            2. +1
              31 July 2026 09: 20
              [quote]Normal. It's just that we usually write about enhanced combat performance, but at a regular combat speed of 800 m/s, survivability was quite acceptable.[/quote]
              The Italian 381/L50 had decent survivability with a 5/6 propellant charge (220 kg), and this is precisely what was used in combat against all non-battleship-class ships. The only drawback was the wide dispersion due to the inconsistent quality of the propellant charge.
              In general, there is a casuistry of terminology here, since in our country such charges are called "low-combat" charges, while in the British, on the contrary, the maximum charge is called a "super charge".
              1. 0
                31 July 2026 09: 32
                Quote: Victor Leningradets
                In general, there is a casuistry of terminology here, since in our country such charges are called "low-combat" charges, while in the British, on the contrary, the maximum charge is called a "super charge".

                That's true, of course, but whatever you call it... Our firing tables for the 180mm were compiled for three charges - muzzle velocity of 920, 800 and 720 m/s.
              2. +1
                31 July 2026 14: 17
                Quote: Victor Leningradets
                and the British have the opposite idea - the maximum charge is called "super charge".

                So, for the 180 mm we had enhanced combat (920), combat (800), reduced combat (720) and reduced (600 m/s).
                With a reduced one, you can only hit the decks - you'll be amazed: range - 100 cables, angle of incidence - about 60 degrees.
                1. +3
                  31 July 2026 15: 25
                  Getting into the narrow deck on such a trajectory would be like William Tell's Circus. Perhaps only for the chase gunfire.
                  1. +1
                    31 July 2026 15: 33
                    Quote: Victor Leningradets
                    Getting into the narrow deck on such a trajectory would be like William Tell's Circus. Perhaps only for the chase gunfire.

                    Anything is possible... But the fact of the existence of such a charge for firing live ammunition is present.
                    The Germans (for 8"), for example, had reduced charges only for illumination shells and training shells, and each type had its own charge.
          2. +5
            30 July 2026 16: 00
            Quote: Per se.
            and the cramped conditions of the turret installations, including due to the placement of three barrels in one cradle.

            So, this is a global practice. If I remember correctly, the Americans switched to individual cradles in the BS GC KRT only on the "Wichita."
            But our question was simple: 6 barrels with individual VN or 9 barrels in three common cradles.
            Quote: Per se.
            Even on the Littorio-class battleships, increasing the range of the 380mm guns did not produce any positive results, as accuracy was essentially sacrificed for record-breaking range.

            They write that the Italians had problems not with forcing the guns, but with the lack of strict control during the serial production of charges at the enterprise and during the acceptance of charges in the navy.
            During gun testing, specially selected propellant charges were used, and there were no dispersion issues. Meanwhile, the naval magazines received standard propellant charges, which varied in weight and propellant properties.
            1. +2
              30 July 2026 16: 04
              Quote: Alexey RA
              But our question was simple: 6 barrels with individual VN or 9 barrels in three common cradles.

              Actually, no: in both cases the valves were located in the same cradle...
              1. -1
                30 July 2026 19: 12
                Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                Actually, no: in both cases the valves were located in the same cradle...

                You're right. Sclerosis and laziness are a terrible combination. fool
                Indeed, the two-gun turret was also made with Italian assistance, but at that time they only had a common cradle.
                1. 0
                  31 July 2026 09: 27
                  Absolutely not:
                  Both on heavy cruisers (all of them), and on light cruisers of the Giuseppe Garibaldi type, as well as on battleships of the Vittorio Veneto type, the guns had individual aiming.
                  The attempt to squeeze two or three barrels into one cradle is caused by an inexplicable desire to save weight in an effort to fit into the Procrustean bed of a given displacement.
                  1. +1
                    31 July 2026 14: 32
                    Quote: Victor Leningradets
                    And on heavy cruisers (all of them), .... the guns had individual guidance.

                    You are very much mistaken: the Italian battleships (all of them) had their main guns located in one cradle.
                    For example...
                    1. +1
                      31 July 2026 15: 28
                      Your truth!
                      The shape of the embrasure let me down. I thought too much about pasta lovers.
      2. +2
        31 July 2026 08: 25
        In the USSR, it was classified as a light cruiser. It's a shame there was no artillery duel with the Kriegsmarine cruisers.
        1. +1
          31 July 2026 14: 35
          Quote: dragon772
          In the USSR it was defined as light.

          But according to the contractual system (which the USSR joined in 1937), it is still difficult...

          Quote: dragon772
          It's a pity there was no artillery duel with the Kriegsmarine cruisers.

          If it were a difficult game, then I think that for our team, at best, it would have ended in a draw...
  4. +7
    30 July 2026 09: 25
    Honestly, the Benny Hill theme song kept playing in my head as I read it. This is our Russian tragedy—the chronic inability to keep a project within its given boundaries. "Let's make it bigger..."
    1. +2
      30 July 2026 11: 44
      Quote: Scaffold
      This is our Russian tragedy—the chronic inability to keep a project within its given framework. "Let's make it bigger."

      The issue here is rather that the spending of funds was not closely monitored.
      1. +1
        30 July 2026 12: 27
        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
        The issue here is rather that the spending of funds was not closely monitored.

        Well, why not? These are, in essence, preliminary design studies, on the basis of which decisions were subsequently made, including taking into account the economy.
        1. 0
          30 July 2026 12: 58
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Well, why?

          And you should read about how the British designed their ships... :)
          1. 0
            31 July 2026 08: 43
            Every country has its own path of trial and error, a path to gaining experience and expertise. England's was the richest at the time, and for a time, they possessed the greatest expertise. Because they built more than anyone else and could afford it. But after WWI, that wasn't quite the case.
            As for the "medium" cruiser for the USSR Navy, in those conditions (armed with hindsight, although this information was available then), realizing that the USSR needed to build a "Big Fleet" practically from scratch in the shortest possible time, it was necessary to try to combine the American experience of maximum standardization and construction of ships in large series, with the experience of the Japanese fleet before WWII, when they simply replaced the 3-gun 152 mm on their light cruisers with 2-gun 8 ", and got "heavy" cruisers from light cruisers, replacing them with 15 x 6 " for 10 x 8 ". And they turned out to be pretty good cruisers.
            The "better is the enemy of the good" principle is especially important in military shipbuilding, especially when it comes to large-scale production. Using Project 68-bis as a basis and with minimal changes, instead of 12 x 6" we get the desired 8 x 8". Don't play with three-gun turrets, otherwise it will be a completely new project, otherwise we will waste time and have a slower construction rate. Simply create a "medium" cruiser with minimal changes based on a light cruiser. With a twin-shaft propulsion plant. With a slightly larger vertical displacement and draft due to the heavier turrets and ammunition, albeit with a loss of 1-1,5 knots in speed, but very quickly create a project for which the industry will say "Thank you very much!" Because with this level of unification, it will be simple and convenient for all cooperation chains to simultaneously produce a large series of light and a large series of "medium" cruisers. Time, deadlines, established cooperation, ease of operation of both types of cruisers, and ease of crew training would provide significant synergies. And the cost of such cruisers would be at most 20% higher than that of light cruisers (estimated).
            And hindsight suggests that when, in the 60s, they were already actively abandoning artillery ships, but still keeping a certain number in service, one could have said with relief, "We didn't spend much." And kept them as ships for artillery support of landing forces. Some of them, like the Project 68-bis, could well have survived until the late 80s.
            but this is just mental gymnastics on a given topic.

            And now Kolobov will come running and quietly put a minus. Yes
            1. +1
              31 July 2026 14: 04
              Quote: bayard
              Each country has its own path of trial and error, a path of gaining experience and competencies.

              If you haven't noticed, I'm not talking about competencies, but about money... :)

              Quote: bayard
              with the experience of the Japanese fleet before WWII, when they simply replaced the 3-gun 152 mm guns on their light cruisers with 2-gun 8" guns, and got "heavy" cruisers from light cruisers, replacing the 15 x 6" with 10 x 8". And they turned out to be pretty good cruisers.

              Things weren't all that rosy there either.
              Read Lacroix and you'll find out how it really was...
              1. 0
                31 July 2026 20: 01
                Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                I'm not talking about competencies, but about money...

                The USSR's problems lay in its capabilities, not its funding. While it had plenty of money, it needed to beef up its production capacity, personnel, design experience, radars, targeting systems, and fire control systems. The USSR/Republic of Russia also lacked experience in building a large ocean-going fleet. Nor did it have any real naval commanders or naval theorists. That explains the constant back-and-forth during regime changes.
                Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                Things weren't all that rosy there either.

                I know about this, but the Japanese simply took existing cruisers and swapped out the turrets. In this case, they simply used Project 68 as a basis and, based on it, with minimal changes, but taking into account all the requirements for guns of this caliber, designed a "medium cruiser" with the greatest possible standardization. And even then, if a cruiser with such artillery was truly considered necessary for the navy. In other words, the project was based on the principle "the best is the enemy of the good": simply build the cruiser that was needed/deemed necessary based on the existing project, with minimal costs (including timeframes). The VI would increase to 19,000-20,000 tons, the speed would decrease by 1-1,5 knots, but then 10-12-15 such cruisers could be built quickly and without any problems. The deadlines were tight; a blue-water fleet had to be built in 10-15 years, with aircraft carriers and battleships, hundreds of submarines, and destroyers. Building a "unique snowflake" under such conditions would be foolish, because it would just end up like "usual." But nothing came of it—not even the program drawn up under Stalin. They got carried away with designing "ships of maximum capability," got carried away with perfecting them, when they simply needed to build good ships. Not "the best," but good ones, but in series, not prototypes or pilot runs.
                1. +1
                  1 August 2026 11: 05
                  Quote: bayard
                  In this case, we simply take Project 68 as a basis and, based on it, with minimal changes

                  Quote: bayard
                  The VI would increase to 19,000 - 20,000 tons, the speed would decrease by 1-1,5 knots.

                  Yeah... Let's take a MANPADS and, with minimal modifications, make it an anti-satellite air defense system. But—so that it can be carried by just one person! Or, let's take an assault rifle and, with minimal modifications, make it a high-caliber, high-powered artillery system. But so that it can fire in bursts! laughing
                  1. -2
                    1 August 2026 15: 00
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Yeah... Let's take a MANPADS and, with minimal modifications, make it an anti-satellite air defense system. But—so that it can be carried by just one person! Or, let's take an assault rifle and, with minimal modifications, make it a high-caliber, high-powered artillery system. But so that it can fire in bursts!

                    Well, you've done it again.
                    1. +1
                      1 August 2026 16: 25
                      Quote: bayard
                      Well, you've done it again.

                      You see, if you had even a passing familiarity with the hardware, you'd understand that it's fundamentally impossible to turn the 68th into a 19,000-ton cruiser with any "minimal modifications." And writing about it is as foolish as trying to turn a MANPADS into an anti-satellite missile system or an assault rifle into a heavy cannon.
                      However, you obviously don’t understand.
                      1. -3
                        1 August 2026 17: 04
                        You have succeeded again.
                        Let's just look at the "heavy cruisers" of the interwar period. Their VI was significantly lower.
                      2. +2
                        1 August 2026 19: 14
                        Quote: bayard
                        Let's just look at the "heavy cruisers" of the interwar period. Their VI was significantly lower.

                        It was stupid to write that the 68 would become a 19000-20,000-ton cruiser. What does the interwar period have to do with it? You've decided to change the subject from one of your stupidities and are asking me to discuss another instead? Fine.
                        Why do you think the Americans built a heavy cruiser with three 3x3*203mm main guns and a displacement of 10,136 tons before the war (New Orleans), and afterward with three 3x3*203mm main guns but a displacement of 17,532 tons? However, judging by what you write, you don't think about this at all. So I'll give you a hint - because, 1) the main battery itself became heavier, since the turrets had fully mechanized loading - the technical rate of fire was increased to 10 rounds per minute. 2) the anti-aircraft armament was greatly enhanced; 3) a bunch of equipment appeared that was mandatory to install on a post-war cruiser, but which did not exist before the war.
                        Do you know why I didn't downvote your first comment? Because yes, indeed, the Sverdlovs' three-gun 152mm turrets could have been replaced with two-gun 203mm turrets, and there probably wouldn't have been any advantage. And, perhaps, such a solution would have actually benefited the Sverdlovs, as their artillery power would have increased.
                        But the problem is that the Sverdlov-class cruisers, armed with 203mm guns, would have been no match for American heavy cruisers—either the wartime Baltimore or the post-war Des Moines. This includes their lesser firepower, their weak armor against 203mm shells, and their inadequate air defense. So, yes, the 68-bis would have been more powerful, but they still wouldn't have been able to fulfill the missions of classic heavy cruisers, and, of course, they wouldn't have met the requirements for a medium cruiser.
                        But to create a cruiser capable of fighting on equal terms with the Des Moines - here, yes, it would be necessary to focus on 19-20 thousand standard, but such a cruiser would be impossible to mold even from the 68-bis, not to mention the 68.
                      3. -2
                        1 August 2026 20: 00
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It was stupid to write that the 68th would become a cruiser of 19000 - 20,000 tons.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        and then - with 3x3*203-mm main guns but with a displacement of 17,532 tons?

                        Don't you find that you are contradicting yourself?
                        The Project 68-bis was a perfectly acceptable variant of the Project 68. But the main question is: for what purpose and mission was this "medium" cruiser planned? For escorting the "Big Fleet" with aircraft carriers? And were the technical specifications for this project correct? And how much time and effort would be required to design and build a series?
                        The history of the "Big Fleet" ended in the spring of 1953 with Stalin's death. Some work continued for a while due to inertia, but everything was shut down. So what are we talking about? A cruiser that was given vague specifications and then "improved" along the way? And which turned out to be a complete failure, like a WWII battleship.
                        I wrote that if the desired 10-12 "medium" cruisers were needed within 10-15 years as cruisers with enhanced artillery, to support light cruisers in combat and to be included in prospective strike groups, then the most rational approach would be to design and build not "ships with the highest possible characteristics," but simply good cruisers for the defined range of tasks. The Japanese built such cruisers for themselves and even converted light cruisers into "heavy" ones. To solve the problem in the outlined 10-15 years, the most rational approach would be to build a "medium" cruiser based on a light cruiser, with the same propulsion plant and based on the same design, but with a slightly larger HI. Industry was capable of this, production cooperation was ready, and they would be 20, or even 25% more expensive than the light 68-bis. This would have been a rational solution within the stated timeframe. But it all turned out to be "unnecessary" in the form of the closure of all shipbuilding programs for large artillery ships. Even with 220mm guns, the specified 20,000 tons could have been met if the design had been done without fanaticism, but with a specific range of tasks in mind.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        That is, yes, the 68-bis would have become stronger, but they still wouldn’t have been able to solve the problems of classic TKRs.

                        And what were those tasks, especially considering that 10-12 "medium" cruisers had to be divided into four fleets? They certainly weren't tasked with conquering the Pacific Ocean. Our fleet was built almost from scratch, and for the next 15 years, all its missions were strictly defensive.
                        But being similar in design to the 68-bis, they would have been built on time and to acceptable quality, but most importantly, on time. And they would have remained in demand after navies abandoned heavy artillery ships in favor of missile ships, as fire support ships for amphibious forces, just like the 68-bis, some of which served until the late 80s and even until the demise of the USSR.
                        Even according to Stalin's plans, a fully-fledged navy capable of taking to sea and competing with the American fleet was not expected to be formed before the early 60s. And that's if industry had been working hard to implement these plans. And even then, the navy would have been "raw" and unequal to the enemy. "Navies take a long time to build."
                      4. +1
                        1 August 2026 20: 58
                        Quote: bayard
                        Don't you find that you are contradicting yourself?

                        There's no contradiction here. You're simply not up to speed with the basics of shipbuilding.
                        Quote: bayard
                        The 68th turned out to be a good example of the 68-bis.

                        It didn't work out. The 68-bis is a different project, developed using the same propulsion plant, some of the weapons, and equipment.
                        There was the Project 68, a pre-war design; the Chapayevs were laid down according to it before the war. After the war, they were completed according to the Project 68K, which was a modernization of the Project 68, and with it, the modernization potential of the Project 68 was completely exhausted. The 68-bis, however, is a completely different project.
                        Quote: bayard
                        To solve the problem in the outlined 10-15 years, the most rational thing was to make an “average” one based on a light one

                        It's impossible. Technically. We need a completely different project.
                        The main battery artillery was different. The ZKDB-100mm Sverdlov guns were frankly so-so; a different weapon was needed for proper air defense. The 37mm V-11s were obsolete, after all; more powerful anti-aircraft guns were needed. More powerful armor. A completely different hull. The only thing they could have done was keep the propulsion system, meaning they could have installed the same TV-7 GTZA engines with the same boilers, but they would have had to switch to a three-shaft configuration.
                        Quote: bayard
                        About a cruiser that was given vague technical specifications and then "improved" along the way? And which turned out to be a complete failure, like a WWII battleship.

                        This is Project 82, but there was a project for a "medium" cruiser (66), whose standard reached 26 thousand tons. But in reality it was possible to make less.
                        Quote: bayard
                        The Japanese built these for themselves and even converted light cruisers into "heavy" ones.

                        You're tempted by false analogies, failing to understand the essence of what the Japanese did. They didn't build light cruisers. They initially built heavy cruisers, but temporarily armed them with 155mm artillery.
                        Quote: bayard
                        And what were these tasks?

                        The key was to successfully engage a cruiser with 203mm artillery, which required superiority in artillery and protection from 203mm shells, creating a free maneuvering zone where the American cruiser could not penetrate ours, but ours could.
                      5. -3
                        1 August 2026 22: 37
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        There is no contradiction here.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        with 3x3*203 mm main guns but a displacement of 17,532 tons?

                        Right?
                        So, after the war, the Americans built a "heavy" cruiser with nine 203mm guns and a 17532-ton capacity and were quite satisfied with it, but the USSR couldn't build a "medium" cruiser with eight 220mm main guns and a 20,000-ton capacity? Isn't that a bit of a presumptuous statement? Or is it a contradiction?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        68-bis is a different project, in the development of which the same propulsion plant, some weapons and equipment were used.

                        That is, it was a development of project 68, which is why the index was not changed, but only the prefix “bis” was added.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        68-bis is a different project.

                        Based on the previous project 68.
                        And since Project 68-bis was a post-war project, it was possible to quickly and conveniently develop a "medium" cruiser of the required parameters, with enhanced artillery in four twin-gun turrets, based on this project. That is, with minimal changes compared to the Project 68-bis.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        but it would be necessary to switch to a three-shaft design.

                        What's that for? To make the propulsion system more powerful than the Iowa's? For a "medium cruiser"? A third turbine means 1.5 times the fuel capacity, and that means the propulsion system's size and growth are out of this world. And when they start upgrading the armor and torpedo protection to a battlecruiser level, you get a "monster" propulsion system the size of a WWII battleship, larger than the Alaska's, but with artillery two to three times weaker.
                        What's the Alaska's propulsion system's capacity? What about the Japanese super-battleship Yamato's? 150,000 horsepower? Was that enough for both of them?
                        It was these kinds of eccentricities with the three-shaft propulsion system that led to this abomination. Three-shaft propulsion systems were planned for the pre-war battleship and light cruiser design, and you insist on the same for a "medium cruiser"?? So we got the design we got. They kept improving it.
                        A 140,000-horsepower propulsion plant is more than sufficient for a good VI-20,000-ton cruiser, with eight 220-mm guns in four turrets and anti-aircraft artillery like Project 68-bis. This would be a reasonable and easily mass-produced "medium cruiser" design, if that's what they really wanted. It would have a speed almost like Project 68-bis, be capable of operating alongside light cruisers in a single formation, conduct defensive combat as part of a carrier strike group, and be no less protected than its American counterpart. Improving on such a design would only ruin it. And they could have built as many of these as needed, not as many as they could afford.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You are not up to date with the basics of shipbuilding.

                        ...said a man with no connection to the Army, Navy, or shipbuilding. Especially not about the "basics." I'm explaining the basics to you now. A ship is always a combination of compromises. Therefore, the pursuit of the "best" always leads to unrestrained cost, price, and difficulties in construction and operation. As a result, such a ship cannot be built in large numbers; its construction and operation are unreasonably expensive, and its impact on the balance of power at sea is negligible. As happened with the Japanese Yamato-class superbattleships.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You are seduced by false analogies, without understanding the essence of what the Japanese did.

                        No, those are normal analogies. Remember their VI? They had five turrets, after all. Our prototype (Project 68-bis) only has four, and the VI is larger, and it will be designed from the start based on the requirements for 220mm guns, meaning the barbettes will probably be different, tailored to the specific turrets, and the ammo will add weight. But it's still possible to stay within the required 20,000 tons.
                        And if it seems that it is “weak”, then just build not 10-12 pieces, but 15-18, quantity always matters.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        a free maneuvering zone arose where the American cruiser could not penetrate ours, but ours could.

                        The superiority in artillery alone would have provided this advantage. The rest depended on the crew's training and the captain's experience. And since the cruiser was relatively inexpensive, we could simply build more and take advantage of the numerical advantage. Although, even with Stalin alive, we couldn't even dream of this until around the mid-60s. It would have been a grueling race for the leader.
                      6. +1
                        1 August 2026 23: 11
                        Quote: bayard
                        So, after the war, the Americans built a "heavy" cruiser with nine 203mm guns and a 17532-ton capacity and were quite satisfied with it, but the USSR couldn't build a "medium" cruiser with eight 220mm main guns and a 20,000-ton capacity? Isn't that a bit of a presumptuous statement? Or is it a contradiction?

                        As I've already said, you simply don't understand what you're writing about. However, I'll cover these issues in future articles, and perhaps you'll learn something from them. Although it's unlikely – you're unteachable.
                        Quote: bayard
                        No, those are normal analogies. Remember their VI? But they had 5 towers each.

                        You can't even comprehend that displacement can't be compared like that. Even after I wrote to you about it. A simple question: How long would the Mogami have lasted in a duel with the Des Moines?
                      7. -3
                        2 August 2026 00: 04
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You are unteachable.

                        And this from a "man without a profession"? Don't try to cover up your lack of evidence with empty pathos. And yes, you especially touched me about the third turbine—about its "necessity."
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I will cover this in the following articles,

                        I'm not sure I'll read it, you'll just be fantasizing again. You could just publish the notes; they might be interesting as reference data, at least.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        A simple question: How long would the Mogami have lasted in a duel with the Des Moines?

                        These are ships of different generations. And yes, remind me of the "De Moines" VI.
                      8. +1
                        2 August 2026 08: 41
                        Quote: bayard
                        Don't try to cover up the lack of arguments with empty pathos.

                        Very funny.
                        You stated that a 20,000 ton cruiser could be made from the 68. I explained that it was impossible using the 68-68K-68-bis as an example, and you cannot object.
                        You claimed that a heavy cruiser could be made from the 68-bis, appealing to the Japanese and the Mogami. I explained that the Japanese did not convert a light cruiser into a heavy one, but initially built a heavy cruiser, temporarily installing a 155-mm gun on it. And you cannot object.
                        So, does that mean I have no arguments? laughing
                        Quote: bayard
                        And yes, you especially touched me about the third turbine - about “its necessity”.

                        It's hard for me to talk to uneducated people; I always subconsciously assume they know at least something. But you, besides your pomp, have zero knowledge.
                        Do you know what speed the 68-bis will have with a displacement of 20,000 tons and the same propulsion system?
                        Actually, no, that's the wrong question. Do you even know what speed the 68-bis had? :))))
                        The Sverdlov achieved 32,69 knots at rated power (111,400 hp), and 33,04 knots only with the engines boosted.
                        Well, if you knew anything about ships, you'd be able to estimate the Sverdlov's speed at 20 standard knots, even if you used the Admiralty coefficient formula. But since you don't know, I'll tell you—it'll be around 29,9 knots. That's the cruiser's maximum. The De Moines, by the way, had 32,5 knots.
                        So, here's the answer to why a 20,000-ton ship needs a standard third turbine. The only thing is, if you take the TV-7 GTZA, it will give the cruiser a speed of about 34,1 knots, which is not what it needs. So, for the ship you're imagining, two turbines from a Project 68-bis cruiser are too few, while three are too many. And the turbines for it will need to be designed differently. laughing
                        The point is, for the 68-bis, the propulsion system from a cruiser with a standard displacement of 10,000 tons was noticeably insufficient, bordering on acceptable. And only a complete naval ignoramus would suggest fitting it onto a ship with a standard displacement of 20,000 tons. What's especially funny is that you even manage to puff out your cheeks while saying this, completely unaware of the nonsense you're spouting.
                        Quote: bayard
                        What's the Alaska's propulsion system's capacity? What about the Japanese super-battleship Yamato's? 150,000 horsepower? Was that enough for both of them?

                        Enough for what? :)))))) With a displacement of 33,148 tons and a power output of 173,808 horsepower during trials, Alaska's speed was 32,72 knots. However, her hull had to be so narrowed that the Americans themselves deemed the design unsatisfactory in terms of survivability. In fact, the US considered the ship a failure. Meanwhile, Yamato's 153,3 kiloponies were sufficient for 27,4 knots.
                        It's scary to even imagine how your illiteracy managed to combine the Alaska and Yamato power plants with the cruiser in question.
                      9. -1
                        2 August 2026 09: 59
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Do you even know what speed the 68-bis had? :))))
                        The Sverdlov achieved 32,69 knots at rated power (111,400 hp), and 33,04 knots only with the engines boosted.

                        Was the Sverdlov the only one in the series? The design capacity of these turbines was 65,000 hp (before the war) and 70,000 hp for the post-war ones. That's why the three-shaft cruiser, which failed but is so defended by you, has a design capacity of 210,000 hp, i.e. 3 x 70,000 hp. This is also indicated in all reference books. The fact that after the war the turbines on the Sverdlov didn't show the declared capacity only confirms that they were designed for exactly 140,000 hp, which is what was achieved on other ships of the project. Perhaps the boilers were modified.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The speed of the Sverdlov is 20 thousand standard, even if it is calculated using the Admiralty coefficient formula

                        Are you suggesting to simply load the Project 68-bis?
                        We were talking about a new project based on the Project 68-bis (read my first comment, which I didn't write to you), the hull of which is proportionally increased (length, width) for acceptable draft and streamlining. Read the text of the interlocutor, and don't squirm like an eel in a frying pan. And then perhaps you will understand that the power of a propulsion plant of 140,000 hp is quite sufficient for a cruiser with a VI of 20,000 tons and a maximum speed of about 32-32,5 knots. And don't give an example of a cruiser with a defective propulsion plant, which was significantly below the design capacity. And even a speed of 31,5 knots would be enough for such a cruiser to be and be considered a good cruiser. And the antics with the example of the Project 68-bis overloaded to 20,000 tons... that's something else entirely. Read the texts they write to you, and don't attribute your fantasies and lies to the other person. I wrote about a project "based on Project 68-bis," not about a banal "tower replacement."
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        combine the Alaska and Yamato power plants with the cruiser in question.

                        To illustrate the issues of sufficiency and redundancy. The UNBUILT cruiser project you're defending has a design powerplant capacity of 210,000 horsepower! That's more than the Iowa-class battleships! But you don't even realize that this is excessive, and that it was the third turbine that led to the exorbitant increase in power output and price, despite the more than modest combat capabilities for such a turbine. This was recognized as a mistake. That's precisely why the project, even before the closure of the artillery shipbuilding programs, was considered absurd and irrational, to put it mildly. And the root of all this is the "third turbine" you so defend. Recalculate the speed of a 20,000-ton cruiser with a 140,000-horsepower propulsion plant, and in a rational Project 68-bis hull, not the one you've overloaded, and you'll see for yourself. But you, true to your stubbornness, will again twist and turn to prove the opposite. And the opposite is unprovable. It will simply be like with AWACS—you'll end up with a failure and unlocking.
                        And calm down, these conclusions I've laid out were drawn before you and me. There simply weren't any experienced naval theorists in the USSR back then, so the technical specifications were issued in such a way that they gave free rein to designers and naval customers. This isn't the only example of such hyperactive activity in creating "no analogues" in domestic shipbuilding. And without a mature theory, "the sleep of reason produces monsters," as this failed cruiser exemplifies. If you're planning to prove the validity of the flawed technical specifications in future articles, I simply sympathize with your readers. You couldn't and won't be able to refute my arguments, because the Navy's leadership came to the same conclusions at the time. And I wasn't insisting on the necessity of such a project (the one I proposed), but rather presented an alternative, how it could have been accomplished under those conditions, quickly and without burdening the industry. I wasn't insisting on the need for such a cruiser; in fact, I doubted it. Just reread what I wrote in my first comment, which wasn't addressed to you.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Very funny.

                        Your face probably looks like the picture in your opus now - stupid.
                      10. +1
                        2 August 2026 10: 11
                        Quote: bayard
                        And was the Sverdlov the only one in the series? The design capacity of these turbines was 65,000 hp (before the war) and 70,000 hp for the post-war ones.

                        Hand-face... 55,000 is the nominal power, approximately 60,000 is in afterburner.
                        In general, you are not even able to watch the power of TV-7.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Are you suggesting to simply load the Project 68-bis?
                        The discussion was about a new project based on the Project 68-bis (read my first comment, which I did not write to you), the hull of which is proportionally increased (length, width) for acceptable draft and streamlining.

                        laughing good
                        It was rightly said: "Boyars in the Duma should speak about what is not written, so that the stupidity of each one is visible."
                        Keep it streamlined:))))))))))))))
                        You don't even understand what the Admiralty Coefficient is. And you're so stupid that you can't even see what it is when I refer to it.
                        The adm. coefficient is an indicator that links a specific ship's displacement, speed, and propulsion power. To estimate the speed of the 20,000-ton cruiser you've imagined, I'm using the ratio achieved on the Sverdlov. So, it will be a cruiser with the same... oh, I can't take it anymore... streamlining:)))))))))
                        Go learn the technical stuff already... you're so streamlined laughing
                        P.S. I upvoted this comment for its "streamlining."
                        Such refined nonsense... good
                      11. -2
                        2 August 2026 10: 52
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Hand-face..

                        Truly, the stupidity of a stubborn person knows no bounds. We're talking about a 140,000 hp propulsion plant, Kolobov. These are exactly the turbines planned for the three-shaft cruiser you're describing: 3 x 70,000 hp.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The adm. coefficient is an indicator that links the displacement, speed and power of the propulsion system of a particular ship.

                        So, calculate the speed using this coefficient for a 140,000 hp propulsion plant, or is religion getting in the way? I specified exactly these turbines for the propulsion plant. These are exactly the turbines specified for the three-shaft cruiser you're defending. Are you reading what they're telling you? Can you distinguish between the numbers? Or are you making this up yourself, having fun? Like the typical internet troll you are. No. This is simply disgusting, but for you, this is a natural state—a mentally warped consciousness. You should get treatment, not publish fantasies. About the unsuccessful project of an unbuilt cruiser, which, although 10,000 tons heavier than the "De Moines," was completely inferior in rate of fire. A ridiculous project. I didn't even write this to you, and Kolobov even initially agreed with the arguments, but then his troll nature took over, and the antics and clowning began. No.
                      12. +1
                        2 August 2026 11: 12
                        Quote: bayard
                        Truly, the stupidity of a stubborn person knows no bounds.

                        Indeed. First, the stubborn one cries out for a cruiser based on the 68-bis, and then he demands completely different turbines, from a different cruiser. And different armament. And displacement. But continuity with the 68-bis must be ensured! laughing
                        Quote: bayard
                        This is just disgusting.

                        Of course. Bayard is always right, and if he's not, see paragraph one. And here he is, with his nose in the facts...
                        It's disgusting, of course, who's arguing? laughing
                      13. -3
                        2 August 2026 11: 52
                        Kolobov, have you READ what was written to you? And not just you. Stop spouting nonsense and making up tall tales. I wrote everything in the first post, exhaustively, about what a "medium" cruiser might look like if there was a real need for one. And Kolobov, after initially agreeing and unable to object, nevertheless began to grimace and pull stupidity after stupidity out of his own finger.
                        What's the hull capacity of the "De Moines," the cruiser you're planning to fight against with your imaginary three-shaft cruiser? 17,500 tons? And after that, you claim it's impossible to build an "average" cruiser with a hull capacity of 20,000 tons? Absolutely impossible, Kolobov? Was it really necessary to build a three-shaft monster that would even be inferior to the "De Moines" in combat?
                        The three-shaft cruiser you've chosen is designed with three 70,000-horsepower turbines. And when I point out that this cruiser is perfectly capable of running on two of those, and that it's almost as fast as a light cruiser, the antics begin again, and Kolobov points to a completely different propulsion system. fool
                        Are you sure you're in good health?
                        Reread what I wrote and be ashamed. You couldn't refute anything, nor competently counter it. Your rants alternate between the original Project 68 (even though I wrote about the Project 68-bis in my very first comment), and the Sverdlov's propulsion plant, which fell far short (111,000 hp) of the designed 128,000 hp. Wherever I listed the power, I mentioned a 140,000 hp propulsion plant; reread it and see for yourself. And these are the turbines of the cruiser you're describing. There are only two of them, which would have been more than enough, just as two turbines were enough for the De Moine.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        nose, yes, into the facts...

                        So you have to drag your nose into the facts you presented. But Kolobov doesn't see his own contradictions, doesn't read the texts, doesn't answer direct questions, lies, dodges, and grimaces like a clown. No. What disgusting stuff.

                        That's why they don't keep you at work.
                      14. +1
                        2 August 2026 12: 15
                        Quote: bayard
                        In the first post I wrote everything, and exhaustively - what kind of appearance an "average" cruiser could have if there was a real need for it.

                        Yeah. They wrote it right here.
                        Quote: bayard
                        In this case, Project 68 is simply used as a basis and, based on it, with minimal changes, but taking into account all the requirements for guns of this caliber, a "medium cruiser" is designed with the greatest possible standardization. And even then, if a cruiser with such artillery was truly considered necessary for the navy. In other words, the project is based on the principle of "the best is the enemy of the good": simply build the cruiser that is needed/deemed necessary based on the existing project, with minimal costs (including timeframes). The VI would increase to 19,000-20,000 tons, the speed would decrease by 1-1,5 knots, but then 10-12-15 such cruisers could be built quickly and without any particular problems.

                        As usual, the one who shouts the loudest, “Why are you writhing like an eel in a frying pan?” is the eel himself. laughing
                        Well, that's all for now – I'm satisfied with the Sunday hysteria of this inflated bayard. Until next time!
                      15. -3
                        2 August 2026 15: 15
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Yeah. They wrote it right here.

                        I was too lazy to read below. You're wriggling like an eel in a frying pan. He'll either offer a defective turbine as an example, or he'll "ignore" the comparison with the De Monda engine, or he'll start wailing about a "third turbine."
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The one who shouts loudest is "Why are you wriggling like an eel on a frying pan?"

                        Not at all. I stand by everything I've stated, and you couldn't come up with a coherent argument (the defective Sverdlova power plant doesn't count). You're jumping between "three turbines" and ignoring the De Monda VE, which was cited as an example.
                        And don't say never, never, never, in case we meet again. You have to answer for your actions, both before the law and before people. I did warn you about the consequences of anti-state activity. And that's not even like losing your job. So yeah, see you later.
                      16. -3
                        2 August 2026 19: 37
                        Well, Kolobov, can you stand one more round?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It turns out that for the ship you invented, two turbines from a Project 68-bis cruiser are not enough, but three are a lot.

                        Now let's take 2 x 70,000 hp turbines = 140,000 hp, and calculate the speed for a 20,000-ton cruiser. What's your Admiralty coefficient? About 32-32,5? Or even 33 knots? You remember that these turbines already existed by that time (an upgrade of the previous ones), and they were included in Projects 66 (3 units) and 69 (4 units). And where do all your calculations go with the defective Sverdlov propulsion plant, which fell far short of the designed 128,100 hp. It turns out that the speed of such a "medium" cruiser would be roughly equal to that of the Project 68-bis light cruisers, and they would be able to operate in the same formation, at the same speed, as part of a single strike group (since we're talking about aircraft carriers). And the naval command came to roughly the same conclusion when they saw what they were designing for this three-shaft, lightly armed "medium" cruiser, almost like the "Alaska," and with a lower rate of fire than its opponents.
                        Quote: bayard
                        The "better is the enemy of the good" principle is especially important in military shipbuilding, especially when it comes to large-scale production. Using Project 68-bis as a basis and with minimal changes, instead of 12 x 6" we get the desired 8 x 8". Don't play with three-gun turrets, otherwise it will be a completely new project, otherwise we will waste time and have a slower construction rate. Simply create a "medium" cruiser with minimal changes based on a light cruiser. With a twin-shaft propulsion plant. With a slightly larger vertical displacement and draft due to the heavier turrets and ammunition, albeit with a loss of 1-1,5 knots in speed, but very quickly create a project for which the industry will say "Thank you very much!" Because with this level of unification, it will be simple and convenient for all cooperation chains to simultaneously produce a large series of light and a large series of "medium" cruisers. Time, deadlines, established cooperation, ease of operation of both types of cruisers, and ease of crew training would provide significant synergies. And the cost of such cruisers would be at most 20% higher than that of light cruisers (estimated).

                        This is from my first comment, not directed at you. If you pay attention, the Project 68-bis is listed as the prototype (the project that could be used to create a good "medium cruiser"). Yes , and in subsequent comments I omitted the full writing of the prototype project.
                        As I indicated to you, the capacity of the power plant that should be installed is 140,000 hp, which was implied initially.
                        I actually didn't look into the reference book, thinking that the Project 68-bis already had this propulsion plant. But at least the first of them had an "intermediate" propulsion plant with a capacity of 128,100 hp, and only the "Sverdlov" had a defective one, which was significantly below the design capacity. So, with two 70,000 hp turbines, such a cruiser will run no worse than the "De Monda". The gun turrets will fit, and the standardization for industry with the Project 68-bis will be very high, and the price will be acceptable for a large series. I think in the region of 450 million Soviet rubles. Do you remember what the price tag was calculated for the Project 66, which you defend so much? More than 900 million? And the Project 68 - 322 million rubles? That is, Even if the cruiser I'm proposing costs approximately 1,5 times more than the Project 68-bis, it will still be half the price of the protected Project 66. And it can be built on the same slipways as the Project 68-bis.
                        You are a "professional economist," even if you trained in the 90s. What do you say to that?
                        And this despite the fact that in my first comment, not directed at you, I indicated that I wasn't at all sure the navy needed such a cruiser... but then I did the math, looked at it... and yes, it turned out to be a decent cruiser. The De Mondu can't match its rate of fire, but it was inexpensive, easy to build and operate, and could have been built in large quantities and would have served usefully even after the cancellation of all of Stalin's major shipbuilding programs. This is precisely the case when abandoning the "best" in favor of the "good" was entirely justified. And two cruisers for the price of one is much better than none, because the project (66) is unusable.
                        All this was clear from my first comment, but you butted in with your antics, got lost in three turbines and made a mess beyond all measure.
                        I wrote to you that I would keep an eye on you, warned you against anti-state activities and propaganda (it's been a long time, you probably forgot), but you've started doing it again. Be careful, and I'll think about what to do about it.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        combine the Alaska and Yamato power plants with the cruiser in question.

                        The Kolobov's propulsion system, relative to the power of the ships, is 140,000 horsepower for a 20,000-ton vessel, much more than the Alaska's 173,808 horsepower. And compared to the Yamato, their propulsion systems are almost equivalent. But the Project 66, with its 210,000 horsepower, is even more powerful than the Iowa's. Don't you think that's a bit much? That's what I mean.
                        And what are you talking about, Kolobov?
                        And be careful with anti-government propaganda. You're in Yekaterinburg now, right? You have a good governor there, remember where he's from?
                      17. -4
                        4 August 2026 02: 29
                        So, having screwed up yet again, just like with his claim that the AWACS is a radar aircraft by primary purpose, and just as striving to prove the unprovable, the "professional economist" fired from his job for failing to fulfill a defense contract, incompetence, incompetence, and a quarrelsome nature, has once again crawled away, having downvoted two of his accounts. lol In the future, he will pour water on the history of the design of the most absurd and unsuccessful project of the Soviet ship, claiming that "without three turbines there was no way" in several subsequent articles, and when the exhausted and fooled readers will be "convinced" by him that "well, there was simply no other way", in the end, like a magician, he will pull out the "De Monda" project (with a displacement almost like our Project 68-bis) and pompously declare - "And here is what the Americans created at that time, behold and be ashamed, looking at its rapid-fire guns with an automatic loader making up to 10 rounds per minute and its sighting systems." And all this water of his narrative will be only for this. Well, and for the sake of royalties for articles, which the entire cycle could have been condensed into one, and quite compact one at that.
                      18. +1
                        2 August 2026 08: 41
                        Quote: bayard
                        Don't try to cover up the lack of arguments with empty pathos.

                        Very funny.
                        You stated that a 20,000 ton cruiser could be made from the 68. I explained that it was impossible using the 68-68K-68-bis as an example, and you cannot object.
                        You claimed that a heavy cruiser could be made from the 68-bis, appealing to the Japanese and the Mogami. I explained that the Japanese did not convert a light cruiser into a heavy one, but initially built a heavy cruiser, temporarily installing a 155-mm gun on it. And you cannot object.
                        So, does that mean I have no arguments? laughing
                        Quote: bayard
                        And yes, you especially touched me about the third turbine - about “its necessity”.

                        It's hard for me to talk to uneducated people; I always subconsciously assume they know at least something. But you, besides your pomp, have zero knowledge.
                        Do you know what speed the 68-bis will have with a displacement of 20,000 tons and the same propulsion system?
                        Actually, no, that's the wrong question. Do you even know what speed the 68-bis had? :))))
                        The Sverdlov achieved 32,69 knots at rated power (111,400 hp), and 33,04 knots only with the engines boosted.
                        Well, if you knew anything about ships, you'd be able to estimate the Sverdlov's speed at 20 standard knots, even if you used the Admiralty coefficient formula. But since you don't know, I'll tell you—it'll be around 29,9 knots. That's the cruiser's maximum. The De Moines, by the way, had 32,5 knots.
                        So, here's the answer to why a 20,000-ton ship needs a standard third turbine. The only thing is, if you take the TV-7 GTZA, it will give the cruiser a speed of about 34,1 knots, which is not what it needs. So, for the ship you're imagining, two turbines from a Project 68-bis cruiser are too few, while three are too many. And the turbines for it will need to be designed differently. laughing
                        The point is that for the 68-bis, the propulsion system from a cruiser with a standard displacement of 10,000 tons (which is what the 68 had according to the original design) was noticeably insufficient, bordering on acceptable. And only a complete naval ignoramus would suggest fitting it onto a ship with a standard displacement of 20,000 tons. What's especially funny is that you even manage to puff out your cheeks while saying this, completely unaware of the nonsense you're spouting.
                        Quote: bayard
                        What's the Alaska's propulsion system's capacity? What about the Japanese super-battleship Yamato's? 150,000 horsepower? Was that enough for both of them?

                        Enough for what? :)))))) With a displacement of 33,148 tons and a power output of 173,808 horsepower during trials, Alaska's speed was 32,72 knots. However, her hull had to be so narrowed that the Americans themselves deemed the design unsatisfactory in terms of survivability. In fact, the US considered the ship a failure. Meanwhile, Yamato's 153,3 kiloponies were sufficient for 27,4 knots.
                        It's scary to even imagine how your illiteracy managed to combine the Alaska and Yamato power plants with the cruiser in question.
                      19. 0
                        4 August 2026 08: 44
                        So, after the war, the Americans built a "heavy" cruiser with nine 203mm guns and a 17532-ton capacity and were quite satisfied with it, but the USSR couldn't build a "medium" cruiser with eight 220mm main guns and a 20,000-ton capacity? Isn't that a bit of a presumptuous statement? Or is it a contradiction?
                        I don't see any contradictions)
                        The technological lag hasn't gone away - compare the Retvizan with the Pobeda and Borodino and you'll see that with the same VI, one of them is poorly armed and weakly protected, while the other is burdened by overload and limited cruising range (to be completely happy, they should have been built in 15 kilotons).
                        Just arithmetically:
                        17,5 x (15/13) = 20kt... That is, ours could theoretically repeat the American project, but the option you proposed looks preferable, therefore, it weighs more.
                      20. +4
                        4 August 2026 11: 06
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        The technological gap has not gone away

                        Dmitry, don't make hasty judgments:))))) The cycle is far from over.
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        Compare Retvizan with Pobeda and Borodino

                        No need:)))) The Pobeda was built to an older design, but even here it had some advantages over the Retvizan. It had a forecastle, while the Retvizan did not. One can argue about whether this forecastle was necessary, but if the admirals decided it was, there's no point in blaming the designers for meeting those requirements. After all, the weight it took could have been used to strengthen its armament and defenses.
                        But the most important reason was the legacy of the Pobeda's outdated three-shaft propulsion system. At the time of its keel-laying, it was considered obsolete, and we could have designed and built a two-shaft system with far better parameters—which would have also freed up weight for guns and armor. But this was abandoned—not because they couldn't redesign it, but because the ship needed to be laid down urgently (one of the Borodino-based ships was supposed to replace Pobeda, but the design was delayed), and there was no time to rework it.
                        Therefore, Pobeda in no way indicates technological inferiority. Moreover, Pobeda was faster than Retvizan, and its small displacement was achieved at a high cost: Nikloss boilers, which were so unsuccessful that the Americans themselves later abandoned them, replacing the boilers on the ships they built.
                        About Borodino... there's a separate story there, which I'll tell someday:))))
                      21. +2
                        4 August 2026 12: 11
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        About Borodino... there's a separate story there, which I'll tell someday:))))

                        It would be interesting to read hi
                      22. +2
                        4 August 2026 12: 21
                        Quote: Trapper7
                        It would be interesting to read

                        Definitely:)))) I just don’t know when yet.
                      23. +2
                        4 August 2026 19: 03
                        Hmm ..
                        We seem to agree with Pobeda - is this the best achievement of the domestic military-industrial complex (with a deadline)?
                        Regarding the twin-shaft installation for the Pobeda, there are stability considerations—a third crane manipulator would balance the high sides, but it's not like they're going to be carrying ballast, and then again, the updated crane manipulator doesn't fit in terms of weight and dimensions, so they'd have to sacrifice the torpedo tube compartment...
                        But your opinion on the "Borodinites" is even more interesting...
                        Finally, open this Pandora's box - that's where the real tsimus is)
                        Especially the actual construction overload (not the reported one, Kostenkovskaya, for the drowned, but the other one - with a meticulous analysis of the loads of the survivors)...
                        I can't say for sure, but it looks like (PROJECT!!!)
                        the overload of the latter is more than a kiloton...
                        Even purely logically, creating a counterpart to the Mikasa with a couple of kilotons of less explosive power, given our military-industrial base, is a gamble justified only by the pressure of deadlines (like, less explosive power means we'll build it faster)...
                        In general, "Victories" had to be stamped out... And "With this you will conquer"
                      24. +1
                        5 August 2026 07: 19
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        We seem to agree with Pobeda - is this the best achievement of the domestic military-industrial complex (with a deadline)?

                        I wouldn't call it that and I don't understand your criteria for why you consider it the best.
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        There are stability considerations regarding the two-shaft installation for the Pobeda.

                        No - of course, a certain rebalancing of the weights will be required, but it is not difficult to do, these are just further changes to the project
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        the third crane manoeuvre balanced the high-sidedness

                        So Borodino wasn't low-sided either :)
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        Open this Pandora's box already

                        We'll definitely have a drink. But later (c)
                      25. 0
                        5 August 2026 18: 56
                        In the Far Eastern theater of military operations, mobility comes to the fore...
                        Here "Pobeda" has no competition.
                        And if it’s for the Baltics and the World Cup, then yes, floating pillboxes like the same “Borodino” rule there.
                        How to redesign the Pobeda for a twin-engine engine?
                        It would be interesting to see, but I'm afraid the end result will be a defective "Retvizan" - without a long, high forecastle, with 12" and suddenly, out of nowhere, with an overload of 1,0-1,5 kt...
                        (they wanted the best)))
                      26. +1
                        1 August 2026 19: 14
                        Quote: bayard
                        Let's just look at the "heavy cruisers" of the interwar period. Their VI was significantly lower.

                        It was stupid to write that the 68 would become a 19000-20,000-ton cruiser. What does the interwar period have to do with it? You've decided to change the subject from one of your stupidities and are asking me to discuss another instead? Fine.
                        Why do you think the Americans built a heavy cruiser with three 3x3*203mm main guns and a displacement of 10,136 tons before the war (New Orleans), and afterward with three 3x3*203mm main guns but a displacement of 17,532 tons? However, judging by what you write, you don't think about this at all. So I'll give you a hint - because, 1) the main battery itself became heavier, since the turrets had fully mechanized loading - the technical rate of fire was increased to 10 rounds per minute. 2) the anti-aircraft armament was greatly enhanced; 3) a bunch of equipment appeared that was mandatory to install on a post-war cruiser, but which did not exist before the war.
                        Do you know why I didn't downvote your first comment? Because yes, indeed, the Sverdlovs' three-gun 152mm turrets could have been replaced with two-gun 203mm turrets, and there probably wouldn't have been any advantage. And, perhaps, such a solution would have actually benefited the Sverdlovs, as their artillery firepower would have increased.
                        But the problem is that the Sverdlov-class cruisers, armed with 203mm guns, would have been no match for American heavy cruisers—either the wartime Baltimore or the post-war Des Moines. This includes their lesser firepower, their weak armor against 203mm shells, and their inadequate air defense. So, yes, the 68-bis would have been more powerful, but they still wouldn't have been able to fulfill the missions of classic heavy cruisers, and, of course, they wouldn't have met the requirements for a medium cruiser.
                        But to create a cruiser capable of fighting on equal terms with the Des Moines - here, yes, it would be necessary to focus on 19-20 thousand standard, but such a cruiser would be impossible to mold even from the 68-bis, not to mention the 68.
                      27. -1
                        4 August 2026 21: 55
                        Why do you think the Americans built a heavy cruiser with 3x3*203 mm main guns and a displacement of 10,136 tons (New Orleans) before the war, and after - with 3x3*203 mm main guns but a displacement of 17,532 tons?
                        -- and because the authors of the Washington Accords should have had a nail driven into their heads or been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize)...
                        Specific reptilians – that only happens in fantasy stories about four-track railways.

                        .
                      28. +1
                        5 August 2026 07: 20
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        , and then - with 3x3*203-mm main guns but with a displacement of 17,532 tons?

                        The requirements for air defense and equipment were completely different. And, of course, 10 kilotons was still a bit low.
                      29. -3
                        1 August 2026 18: 40
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It is basically impossible to make a 19,000 ton cruiser out of the 68th

                        Don't multiply stupidity, especially about
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        from a MANPADS anti-satellite air defense system or from a machine gun - a heavy gun.

                        you are already filled with it.
                2. -1
                  2 August 2026 22: 45
                  Ok
                  What if it's the same thing but taken to the extreme?
                  We are changing 4x3x6" not to 4x2x8", but...
                  On 4x1x10"!!!
                  Of course, having taken into account in advance the "reserve" of strength and weight and dimensions...
                  Compared to eight-inch guns, we get three times fewer fired shells (from here on, according to the formula half a finger is the ceiling),
                  We win twice as much in terms of combat accuracy,
                  and even twice as effective (yes, perhaps even more) in case of defeat.
                  Again, as a bonus, there is a fundamental difference in the impact on protected targets.
                  1. -4
                    3 August 2026 07: 37
                    Quote: Dmitry24
                    What if it's the same thing but taken to the extreme?

                    Write about this in the magazine "Murzilka".
                    1. +1
                      3 August 2026 17: 24
                      These are not my minuses, by the way)
                      I think my colleagues simply disagree with you—the magazine "Funny Pictures" is more suitable for our options.
            2. +1
              1 August 2026 11: 07
              But I won't give you any minuses for this - for once I managed not to say a single outright stupid thing.
    2. +8
      30 July 2026 12: 22
      Quote: Scaffold
      This is our Russian tragedy—the chronic inability to keep a project within its given framework. "Let's make it bigger."

      An insatiable thirst for improvement from the series "Let's also hang a flashlight on our forehead!". smile
      As a result, for example, the Navy stepped on the same rake of the "heavy cruiser" twice in a row: in the pre-war and post-war programs, when considering the next iteration of the battlecruiser design, the thought arose, "Well, in principle it's not bad... but it would be good if it could also cope with more powerful opponents." As a result, Project 69 grew from "certainly large, but still a battlecruiser" to "a Soviet Renown" with six 38-cm guns, and Project 82 grew from a "Hipper" to a "Stalingrad."
      This naval malady persisted—remember Project 1144? Or how Project 1164, from "1134B with anti-ship missiles," grew by a third and became the Slava? But at least they managed to build these...
      1. +2
        30 July 2026 12: 33
        Quote: Alexey RA
        An insatiable thirst for improvement, like "let's put a flashlight on our forehead!"

        It's hard to argue:))))
  5. +3
    30 July 2026 11: 35
    In general, the game of "medium cruiser" began somewhat earlier: the Italians drew up for us several projects of a battlecruiser of 19 - 22000 tons with 3x3-250 mm main guns.
    1. +1
      30 July 2026 12: 28
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      In general, games of "medium cruiser" began a little earlier

      You could say that, but I'm not talking about a medium cruiser, but about cruisers with 220mm artillery. If my sclerosis isn't lying to me, then it seems like it first appeared on the Pr 82.
      1. +4
        30 July 2026 12: 59
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        If my sclerosis doesn't lie to me, then it seems like it first appeared on pr 82

        No, he's not lying... When we first approached the projectile in the form of Project 82, it was precisely this that figured.
      2. +3
        30 July 2026 16: 20
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        You could say that, but I'm not talking about a medium cruiser, but about cruisers with 220mm artillery. If my sclerosis isn't lying to me, then it seems like it first appeared on the Pr 82.

        My sclerosis tells me that there was no 220mm caliber before the war. They wanted to install 240mm main guns on cruisers back then (miracle-yudo fish-whale large cruiser of the "X" project) and 254-mm (the very first version of the 69 project). smile
        1. +2
          30 July 2026 16: 58
          Quote: Alexey RA
          My sclerosis tells me that before the war there was no 220 mm caliber.

          Hooray! Our scleroses have reached a consensus laughing hi
  6. +5
    30 July 2026 12: 18
    Thanks to the author for the pleasure of wandering with him through all the well-known nooks and crannies of the naval command's shipbuilding thought... A wonderful article, well-researched and highly technical.

    As a side note, I believe there's a lack of archival research into the material, conducted by designers and shipbuilders (or rather, ministries). Some design bureau archives provide access to documents over 75 years old, albeit within the context of research papers and with supporting documentation from research institutes or ministries. It seems the author is familiar with some of the documents, but for some reason chose not to cite them... drinks

    Why am I talking about archives? They reveal the real reasons behind certain decisions and the grounds for project development limitations—the reasons for the impossibility of building a particular ship design, the available resources, and what can be gained from these resources—shipbuilding capacity, the ability to produce the required grades of steel and other materials, logistical difficulties, the economics of the issue, the availability of productive capacity in shipbuilding and steelmaking locations, the alignment of shipbuilding program needs with overall economic capabilities, and so on.
    Of course, "The Party said it must! We'll answer: Yes!"—that slogan worked, but even it had its limits. The country could handle several large projects, but could it handle something as large as this, requiring vast human resources of sufficiently high qualifications? And not just any project, but in combination with other urgently needed projects?

    It would be interesting to read the author's account of the research conducted at the Krylov Research Center (and research was conducted there, as far as I know)?
    The issue of weapons... near Leningrad (or rather, in the suburbs – near Vsevolozhsk, which for a time was even the Leninsky district of Leningrad in 1927-1930...) is the oldest artillery range for testing and researching naval artillery – the Rzhevsky range, where the calibers listed in the article were tested...

    The author, unfortunately, neglected to address the issue of caliber selection, other than a very brief statement—"we chose it," and that's it. A new caliber for our naval artillery is no small feat, so to speak. Who would produce it, and how? Was there not only the production capacity (which was already gone), but also the research itself? As we understand, it wasn't simply a matter of drilling a hole in a piece of iron, as some believe. And the caliber issue could have been decisive in determining the path taken by the naval and national leadership.

    Good article, respect to the author hi
    1. +2
      30 July 2026 12: 41
      Quote: Vasily_Ostrovsky
      Good article, respect to the author

      Thank you very much for your kind words!
      Quote: Vasily_Ostrovsky
      lack of archival processing of material

      It's a pain in the ass, but there's nothing I can do about it. When I work, even until recently, I couldn't visit the archives—their opening hours clash with work hours, and they're closed on Saturdays and Sundays. I had such high hopes... Anyway, I only go there on vacation, but I have a large family, they rarely see me, and I spend my vacations with the archives, not with my family...
      And when I'm out of work, the fee for an article doesn't even cover the cost of a ticket.
      So I'm either relying on documents digitized by libraries (like with the Russian Academy of Sciences), or on gifts from those who work in the archives, or, as is the case now, on secondary sources.
      1. +3
        30 July 2026 16: 39
        I'm all too familiar with your archive woes, but on the other hand: I foolishly collected so much that I wouldn't have time to process it in a lifetime. I had electronic access, wrote a short script, and collected electronic images until I was completely stupefied... but the trouble is, it wasn't the topic I needed... hmm... One thing is comforting - I was in the right place at the right time. The archive has been closed for electronic access for six months now, and when will it reopen...
        By the way, I'm using AI for processing, but it occasionally lies like a grey gelding... without its own intelligence, nothing works, that's the problem...
        Try a good LLM model or something similar, it really helps with handling large volumes, but don't trust it 100%...
        1. +1
          30 July 2026 17: 42
          Quote: Vasily_Ostrovsky
          but here's the problem - it's not the topic I needed

          What is the topic, if it’s not a secret?
          1. +2
            30 July 2026 18: 13
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            What is the topic, if it’s not a secret?

            Now it's gone... Initially - some questions about the development of the repressive organs of the Russian Empire in the Far East... the topic died, the material led in the wrong direction, everything spread out and spread out... what to do with it... I should have limited myself to a couple of files in the archive and that's it, but the devil possessed me to collect a whole bunch of material...
            1. +1
              30 July 2026 20: 01
              I understand and sympathize. Historical research—what was that thing Bilbo said in Tolkien's novel?
              "It's a dangerous thing, Frodo, going out of doors; once you set foot on the road, if you let your feet go, you know not where they may carry you."
  7. 0
    30 July 2026 12: 20
    In the game "World of Ships," is the cruiser "Petropavlovsk" a ship of this series?
    1. 0
      30 July 2026 12: 31
      Quote: Seaflanker
      In the game "World of Ships" the cruiser "Petropavlovsk"

      No, in the world of ships, the Project 66 cruiser is the Moskva.
    2. +2
      30 July 2026 16: 28
      The ships have as many as three battlecruisers with 220 mm main guns: two early versions of Project 82 and Project 66.
      "Riga" is the second version of Project 82.
      "Petropavlovsk" is another variant of the Project 82 before the transition to 305 mm.
      "Moscow" - pr. 66.
      1. +2
        30 July 2026 18: 03
        In the game, the 220mm gun is credited with colossal armor penetration, comparable to the 16-inch guns of a battleship—is this based on reality?
        1. +2
          30 July 2026 18: 26
          Quote: Seaflanker
          In-Game

          In "Ships," all the characteristics will be as the developers have written them.
          I remember in one of the tests, they assigned the armor penetration and damage of the Yamato main gun to the Nevada's anti-tank gun... It was really funny.
          1. +4
            30 July 2026 19: 39
            Quote: Macsen_Wledig
            In "Ships," all the characteristics will be as the developers have written them.

            Since the time bloody potatoes It is known that historicism is not playable. smile
            I remember a joke on LiveJournal that, to ensure historical accuracy in "tank games," playing the T-34 requires a keyboard with a key force of 30 kg (for the control levers) and a mouse of the same weight (for the turret aiming wheels).

            Complete historical accuracy in vehicle parameters is impossible or impractical due to balance requirements and game logic. ©
            1. +3
              30 July 2026 19: 42
              Quote: Alexey RA
              It's been known since the days of the bloody potatoes that historicism is not playable.

              Thanks, Cap... ;)
  8. +4
    30 July 2026 12: 32
    Excellent article!!! Bravo to the author!!! Now, to the point. The point is that the author has skillfully demonstrated that the Navy's leadership was completely out of touch with reality. Before the war, we couldn't build such ships due to technological backwardness and personnel shortages. And after the war, building artillery ships in the era of air power was foolish, as the wars in the Pacific, Baltic, and Black Seas demonstrated. We planned to build a powerful fleet, but in reality, the Black Sea Fleet's large surface ships had exhausted their gun barrels by mid-1943, and this problem was never resolved. It's very sad. It feels like the fleet was built for the sake of having one, built for some kind of "toy soldiers" game, and then it turned out the fleet couldn't blockade the Germans in Crimea in 1943, that there were no minesweepers, that there were no good patrol ships for convoys, no naval aviation, etc. But there are truly beautiful photographs of the fleet. The most offensive thing is that history is repeating itself. The Black Sea Fleet's actions since 2022 are a disgrace to the Navy. If, in eighty years, history repeats itself, then we should be talking not about technology, but about people incapable of making decisions, unwilling to organize personnel training, in short, who WANT NOTHING... including victory. Then these naval commanders will write heroic opuses and fill every page, but will recommend not to talk about the problems; that's unpatriotic.
    1. +2
      30 July 2026 16: 43
      Quote: alberigo
      One gets the feeling that the fleet was built just for the sake of having one, built for some kind of game of "soldiers," and then it turned out that the fleet couldn't blockade the Germans in Crimea in 1943, that there were no minesweepers, that there were no good patrol ships for convoys, no naval aviation, etc.

      Thus, the navy was regularly built not for what the navy needed, but for what industry could. The navy needed a miniature anti-aircraft gun for destroyers—industry only produced three sets during the entire war. Miniature anti-aircraft guns with power drives and director control, which became the standard during the second half of WWII, are not and will not be produced; they would only begin to be produced in the 50s for ships of entirely post-war designs. As a result, maneuvering, not anti-aircraft guns, became the only reliable means of protecting ships from air attack, making escorting ships impossible, since the escort would disrupt the formation when attempting self-defense.
      In the Black Sea Fleet during WWII, the situation was aggravated by the fact that the theater of military operations was completely closed, and all shipbuilding capacities were captured or blockaded by the enemy back in 1941. While the Baltic Fleet and Northern Fleet more or less received new ships, the Black Sea Fleet, from 1942 onwards, was limited by what could be brought in by rail.
    2. +1
      31 July 2026 06: 49
      After the war, building artillery ships in the era of aviation dominance is stupid


      I'd like to see "air supremacy" in a storm. Keep in mind that no one had anti-ship air-launched missiles back then.
      1. +3
        31 July 2026 11: 18
        Are you going to conduct an artillery battle in a storm?
        1. +2
          31 July 2026 11: 27
          Quote: alberigo
          Are you going to conduct an artillery battle in a storm?

          According to the OTZ, the Project 66 cruiser was required to be capable of using its armament, including main battery guns, in sea conditions up to and including 8 points.
          1. +4
            31 July 2026 14: 04
            You can write whatever you want, but where have you seen combat in a force-eight storm? How will you zero in, how will you monitor hits, how will atmospheric conditions affect the radar, how will the wind affect the projectile's trajectory? In my opinion, such demands are pure nonsense and demonstrate a detachment from the realities of combat. Which, no doubt, is what our naval leadership is demonstrating.
            1. +3
              31 July 2026 14: 29
              Quote: alberigo
              You can write whatever you want, but where have you seen battles during a force eight storm?

              Let's put it simply. At Tsushima, the ships fought in seas of force 3-4 and winds of up to force 5. At Coronel, Spee's cruisers defeated Cradock in winds of force 6.
              With such initial conditions, WWII carrier-based aviation flights could have already been cancelled.
              In 1943, the Glasgow and Enterprise engaged a German force of 11 destroyers and torpedo boats in sea state 5-6, which meant there was absolutely no chance of carrier-based aircraft. The cruisers, however, irritated the Germans, sinking a destroyer and two torpedo boats.
              At the same time, Project 66 would have had slightly better equipment than Glasgow. Therefore, the sea conditions it could have fought in are debatable, but it is certain that it could have fought at sea, when carriers were unable to deploy their carrier-based aircraft.
              Quote: alberigo
              How will atmospheric phenomena affect radar?

              As usual. And no problem, radar was even used in WWII in the north and in snowstorms, and it helped.
              Quote: alberigo
              How will the wind affect the trajectory of the projectile?

              This is taken into account by the tables.
              Quote: alberigo
              How will you sight in and control your hits?

              As usual.
  9. 0
    31 July 2026 06: 48
    Today, much is said about the fact that the Soviet Navy was replenished with obviously outdated ships immediately after the war.


    Well, that's a common misconception. The post-war program may have been overly conservative, but overall it was the right one. Aircraft carriers couldn't fill every gap back then; missiles didn't exist yet. Gunships, however, still had certain niche uses, which, in fact, haven't disappeared. So more guns were needed.
    1. 0
      31 July 2026 19: 31
      If there are no large ships, then the admirals have nothing to command, and it doesn’t matter that a large ship takes a long time to build, is expensive to operate, the number of places for their basing is severely limited by natural conditions, and most of the time it will be at the pier, and then in the post-war country there were other tasks besides the construction of heavy cruisers,
      1. +1
        31 July 2026 22: 20
        The same can be said about tank forces. And about infantry, and about aviation. Everything takes a long time to build (and is easy to break), is expensive to operate (especially if you do it through the anus), and from a civilian perspective, is completely unnecessary, except to give the military something to command.
        Then, however, it turns out that it is easy to destroy the defense industry, but without the defense industry the casualties are off the charts.
        And to keep costs within reasonable limits, we need civil authorities who will make such decisions with a clear head. And for 300 years, since Peter the Great, we've been swinging from one extreme to another according to the same pattern:
        1) Lya, we need a fleet, all the money goes to the fleet.
        2) Who the hell needs it? I don't have enough money. Let it rot.
        3) Oh, we've covered ourselves in blood. We urgently need a navy, all the money for the navy.
        And so in a circle.
  10. +2
    31 July 2026 19: 44
    Destruction of Washington's cruisers and battle with the "battleships" of the Scharnhorst, Dunkirk, Kongo and Renown types.
    This contradiction, inherent in the genesis of the heavy cruiser Project 69, has always baffled me:
    - if you are starting a fight with a patrol consisting of a pair of Washingtons (where, under what conditions?) - then the armor should be chosen based on the conditions of this confrontation, but the speed should be sufficient to force the enemy to fight;
    If you can have incidental contact with the aforementioned battleships, the objective is to immediately end it and disengage. Armor is of little importance, as a decisive engagement with these ships is not part of the mission. Speed ​​is crucial, and given the primary mission, it is a priori sufficient for disengaging. The main battery is also quite adequate, as its primary purpose is not to sink such formidable opponents, but to provide effective target coverage, for which the B-50 gun is ideal.
    As for the displacement, the result should be accepted as providing a combination of the necessary combat qualities.
    1. +2
      31 July 2026 20: 31
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      This contradiction, inherent in the genesis of the heavy cruiser project 69, has always baffled me.

      When the Krasnoyarsk Navy issued the technical specifications for the Project 69, they had in mind combat only against the Scharhorst at acute course angles (from 30 degrees), hence the 230-mm belts (+ data from German penetration charts).
  11. +1
    31 July 2026 22: 28
    A good article; I almost missed it, expecting a continuation of Bayan's series. "Broad interests" saved me. For lack of anything better, I decided to look again at Stalin's love of numbers like "Soviet dwarf - the largest dwarf in the world.") And I wouldn't have believed it if...
    ..according to OTZ dated October 30, 1947 The designers were ordered to work out the installation on the cruiser jet A. Lyulka's accelerators for a short-term, 2-3 hour, increase in speed to 39-40 knots!

    You don't even have to be a (workers' faculty) engineer to try to imagine this and... not have time))
    Truly "Checkmate to anyone who doubted!"
    And what's interesting is that none of the above was the fantasy of just one person. The design specifications for this light cruiser were formulated based on the results of a study of the tactical properties of light cruisers, carried out by Naval Academy!.

    Well, fashionable things are still popular today, "scientific managers" are shoving them everywhere. In the forties- reactive...in the 50s atomic (bomb, gun, engine...); in the 80s automated (ACS, computer, etc.); in the 2010s 3d printers ; in the 2020s AI (artificial intelligence)...
    In the summer of 1947, three variants of Project 82 were prepared, of which the smallest had 220 mm artillery, 150 mm side armor, a speed of 33,5 knots and a standard displacement of 30,000 tons, and the largest heavy — with 305 mm artillery, 200 mm side armor, a speed of 32 knots and a displacement of 40 000 t. The third option was intermediate — it had 305 mm guns, but the thickness of the side armor was 150 mm, the speed was 32,5 knots and the displacement 38 000 t.

    I was always surprised by this "in-betweenness" (even in Kaiserliche Marine projects) "Economy" - 5% (2Kt) of VI.
    Of interest is another of these three options, which called for a radical reduction in displacement—to 10,800 tons. Armor—apparently at the level of the original OTZ, that is, 60 mm sides and 50 mm deck. Moreover, such a radical reduction in displacement was achieved by reducing the main caliber guns from 9 to 6 (220 mm).

    This is more realistic and represents a "return to roots" like the "Kirov"). By increasing the armor, etc., we will get a "Sverdlov" not with 9x152, but with 6x220mm.
  12. -2
    1 August 2026 09: 39
    [quote=Evil Eye] The same can be said about tank forces. And about infantry, and about aviation. Everything takes a long time to build (and is easy to break), is expensive to operate (especially if you do it through the anus), and from a civilian perspective, is completely unnecessary, only so the military has something to command.

    Initially, the discussion was about large ships that are long and expensive to build, and then difficult and expensive to operate, and about the fact that due to the cold climate and geography, the number of places where they can be based is very small, and in reality, only a few units can be built (it is easier to build 7-10 units of highly specialized ships with a displacement of 2-2.5 thousand than one universal ship of 25-35 thousand, and the service life of all will be approximately the same), but the admirals have their own logic
    In general, not a single boss (no matter where or what) will admit that the area he is in charge of has become irrelevant, for example, the Airborne Forces, what about it?
    1. 0
      1 August 2026 10: 09
      >> due to the cold climate and geography, the number of possible locations for their deployment is very limited

      So what?

      >> It is easier to build 7-10 units of highly specialized ships with a displacement of 2-2.5 thousand than one universal ship of 25-35 thousand

      This is true at first, but the more ships you build, the more resources are disproportionately wasted on trivialities, including personnel (one minute you need one captain, the next you need ten), while combat capabilities don't increase (the quantity of small ships compensates for their quality only in certain cases, such as anti-submarine warfare). So, the Union ended up churning out a huge number of highly specialized ships—and for each task, they had to build new ships instead of upgrading the existing ones.

      >> In general, not a single boss (no matter where or what) will admit that the area he is in charge of has become irrelevant

      And not just the boss. That's what a civilian government is for.
  13. +1
    1 August 2026 16: 08
    The US Iowa-class battleships had nine 406mm main guns. They fought in several wars. What a powerhouse they were! I saw one of these at a museum in Virginia.
  14. +1
    2 August 2026 08: 53
    Quote from Evil Eye
    So, in the Union, they ended up churning out a huge number of highly specialized ships - and for each task, they had to build other ships

    It is a common misconception that universal items can replace specialized ones, and no one wants to tighten nuts with a "universal" adjustable wrench. Universal items are never effective; they always and everywhere lose to specialized ones. There is even a well-known legend where the god Krishna told his warrior Arjuna that there is no universal weapon, but here there are people who demand a single machine gun, a single cartridge, a large universal ship for all occasions.
    1. +1
      3 August 2026 00: 18
      Can you write everything in one thread? lol
      No need to be doctrinaire. You're surrounded by universal items, and you rarely use specialized ones. Your regular kitchen knife is a versatile tool, but a straight razor isn't. How many people own straight razors these days?
      In the armed forces, versatility is needed to reduce costs, so the cost of one cartridge, one machine gun mechanism, etc., allows for more to be produced for the same amount of money. Or the same amount, but cheaper. But in the navy, the critical issue is the number of hulls. If you were to build a new hull for every task (and an incomplete one at that, due to insufficient displacement), even the Soviet budget would not be able to withstand it.
  15. +1
    2 August 2026 11: 17
    design a light hydrofoil cruiser

    I want to see it!
  16. 0
    4 August 2026 22: 06
    After World War II, Soviet naval shipbuilders had only one truly successful design for heavy artillery ships: the "small battleships" of TsNII-45.

    If these "small battleships" with the displacement of Project 82 heavy cruisers could be combined with the small light cruisers that were developed on an independent basis in 1948-1950 by OKB-5, OKB-172, and OKB-196 of the IV Special Department of the USSR Ministry of Internal Affairs, the result would be quite reasonable.

    And so... a complete waste of public funds on obsolete, still in the drawing boards, unnecessary artillery ship projects of little use for real combat operations.

    In the first post-war decade of the USSR Navy as usual He was preparing for a "past war that never happened," the very possibility of which was negated by the successes of Japanese carrier-based aviation by the late 1930s. To say nothing of the 1950s, the pre-rocket "golden era" of jet aviation, including carrier-based aviation.
  17. 0
    5 August 2026 09: 59
    Quote from Evil Eye
    Can you write everything in one thread?
    No need for doctrinaire thinking. You're surrounded by universal tools, and you rarely use specialized ones. Your regular kitchen knife is a universal tool, but a straight razor is not.

    The kitchen knife example is a bad one. There are a lot of different cutlery, and you probably have at least three types of spoons alone in your kitchen. Although everything around you may seem universal, you certainly wouldn't go to a universal doctor for a universal cure. Even in savage tribes, they'd prefer underwear or shorts to a universal loincloth, but you want a highly complex object—a large, universal ship for all occasions—which takes a long time to build at first, and then quickly becomes obsolete.
    1. +1
      5 August 2026 21: 49
      Small ships become obsolete quickly, while large ones can last 50 years if modernized in a timely manner. And the potential for modernization should be built in advance.