Military Review

Automatic control systems for self-loading firearms (Part of 1)

I do not remember in the comments to which article and by whom, but it was proposed to make several materials that would describe the basic principles of firearms weapons, as well as the individual nuances of a system. It was proposed in the context of the popularization of weapons, as for many that the automatic system with a long barrel stroke, that the free gate is just a set of words and nothing more. Well, about the fact that people are tight on the trigger, and so on, you can not even mention. Let's start right away from the complex, namely, just from automation systems, since, having dealt with them, people at least will have an understanding of how a particular sample works.

Usually in weapon reviews I try to at least briefly describe how automation works, but sometimes there are several articles in a row about weapons with the same automation system as a result, writing the same thing is not at all interesting, and I don’t always want to describe in detail what and where is moving. In this material I want to cover at least what has been and is being used in firearms at the moment, naturally with concrete examples. The material will be big, sometimes tedious, I will try to write without the use of terms, that is, roughly speaking, I will explain on my fingers. So who in the subject can safely skip the article, because you will not learn anything new from it, and who wants to figure out how and what works, then it is necessary to read it. May be added new visitors due to this article in the sections "Individual weapons" and Sniper weapons ", otherwise we sit here with our company, we will expand.

Automation system with free shutter.

Let's start with the simplest, namely with the automatic shutter system. The Makarov pistol will be the closest example to our compatriots; besides, the free bolt is often used in machine pistols and in those models that use low-power ammunition. In pistols, the free bolt is mainly used with cartridges with a small kinetic energy of a bullet, the limit for such a system can be called 9x19 ammunition, for which there are several models of automatic pistols with a free gate. But such a weapon works, in the literal sense, at the limit of its capabilities, because of which its resource is very small, and the requirements for the quality of materials are very high, which naturally affects the cost. If we talk about submachine guns, then in them the automatic system with a free gate is used more widely and with a wide variety of ammunition. But first things first.

Automatic system with a free gate for pistols.

Automatic control systems for self-loading firearms (Part of 1)We will analyze the automatic system with a free gate for pistols using the example of the same PM, as for people interested in weapons there is always an opportunity to get acquainted with this gun due to its wide distribution, at least in the “traumatic” version, which does not differ from the original automatic system . Inside the casing of the weapon, the same part that is being pulled to move the cartridge from the magazine to the chamber, the uppermost moving part of the pistol, is the shutter, because for most of the pistols in the description they say not just the shutter, but the shutter-casing, as these are two parts rigidly interconnected. There are variants of pistols, where the bolt is represented by a separate piece of its own, but there are few of them. Despite the fact that the automation system with a free shutter, the shutter is actually not that free, its movement is hampered by the return spring of the weapon, which is wound around the barrel in a Makarov pistol. The return spring abuts against the front of the casing-bolt, so that in order for the casing-shutter, and accordingly the shutter itself to be in its extreme rear position, it is necessary to compress the return spring. And now how it all works.

As is known, the bullet moves along the bore due to the fact that the powder during its combustion releases combustion products in a volume that is much higher than the volume of the powder itself. Due to this phenomenon, the pressure between the cartridge case and the bullet increases very quickly, and accordingly a larger volume is required to reduce this pressure. The increase in volume free for powder gases occurs precisely because the bullet moves along the barrel and the distance between the cartridge case and the bullet increases. To make it more clearly you can present all this in the form of a piston, but with one reservation. Powder gases, expanding, put pressure not only on the bullet itself, but also on the walls of the bore, as well as on the bottom of the liner. If the sleeve did not support the bolt, it would fly out of the chamber in the same way as the bullet, but since the weight of the bolt, casing and sleeve is greater than the weight of the bullet, and plus the whole casing-gate does not allow the return spring to move freely, the sleeve remains in the chamber.

It is quite timely to ask how the recharge occurs in this case. I will try to explain back on a simpler example. If you take two metal balls with a big difference in mass and put a compressed twisted spring between them, then when the spring straightens and pushes the balls, they will move at different speeds, and if the difference in weight is very large, then one of the balls can remain on place In our case, to ensure trouble-free and proper operation of the weapon’s automation system, it is necessary to ensure that the bolt-cushion is moving after the bullet leaves the barrel, that is, that it is not powder gases that push the barrel with the bolt its mass preserved energy obtained through the sleeve from the powder gases, pulled the sleeve from the chamber.
I feel heaped up the forest, “imagine that, imagine it”, because a lite-version of the description of the automation system operation with a free gate:

When fired, the powder gases expand, push the bullet at high speed through the barrel bore, press against the sleeve, which transfers the energy received from the powder gases to the shutter. Due to the greater mass of the casing-bolt, in comparison with the bullet, its speed is much lower than the speed of the bullet, but due to the greater mass, the casing-bolt picks up speed more slowly, because it is often said that the casing-bolt begins to move after the bullet has left barrel that is not quite right. Thus, the automation system can be represented as a system with two movable pistons in one cylinder, differing in the effort necessary for their movement. Well, speaking roughly and do not take into account the fact that one of the pistons continues to move even when the second one jumped out of the cylinder, and the pressure in it returned to normal.

Well, in order to make it completely clear, we will try to go through the points of what happens when fired by the example of a Makarov pistol:
1. The powder ignites, begins to burn, increasing the pressure between the sleeve and the bullet.
2. The bullet moves along the barrel, picking up speed, the shutter-casing begins very, very slowly, almost imperceptibly, to accelerate.
3. The bullet leaves the barrel of the weapon, the bolt continues to move due to its mass, even though nothing pushes it through the sleeve anymore. In the process of movement of the shutter is constantly compressed return spring.
4. The shutter casing removes the cartridge case from the chamber and throws it through the window for the cartridge case.
5. Having reached its rearmost point, the casing of the bolt cocks the gun trigger and stops
6. Since the return spring is compressed, after the casing-shutter stops, it tries to straighten up, as a result, the casing-shutter begins to move forward.
7. In the process of moving the cover-shutter, a new cartridge is removed from the magazine, which is simply pushed forward.
8. The shutter casing inserts a new cartridge into the chamber and stops.

Despite the fact that everything is really very simple, even such an automation system may not work correctly. Above was given an example with two metal balls of different mass, between which a compressed spring was laid. Just this example most clearly demonstrates two options for the improper operation of the weapon automation system. In the first variant, when one of the balls is too heavy, in comparison with the second, it simply will not budge. In our case, this will mean that the shutter-casing will simply prop up the liner and recharge will not occur. In the second case, the automation system does not work with a free gate, the shutter can start moving even before the bullet left the barrel, respectively, the thin walls of the sleeve will take the whole “blow” from the powder gases to themselves and most quickly fail or withstand. Both of them are not good for us, since a deformed or torn sleeve can jam the cover and slide, and the powder gases burst through the broken sleeve, instead of pushing a bullet through the barrel, will simply go slower.

It may seem that ensuring the proper operation of the automation system is an incredibly complex task, connected with an accurate calculation of the weight of the housing-gate, but this is not so. In the case of balls of different mass, between which a compressed spring is laid, we can really “play” only with weight and with nothing else. In the case of a gun, we have another opportunity to act on this system, namely, through a return spring. Since the return spring is directly connected with the shutter casing, by changing its rigidity, we can also change the speed of the casing-shutter, without changing its weight.

Naturally, examples of the improper operation of the automation system cannot be found in military weapons, since such samples are designed by specialists and such “childhood diseases” are a disgrace for the designer. Yes, and military ammunition for its energy is more or less stable. It is possible to meet the improper operation of the automation system with a free gate in pistols except in very old samples or in case of outright marriages in the manufacture of weapons or ammunition. But to look at this mess is an opportunity. Provided this opportunity traumatic weapons. Immediately I would like to say that the reason for the malfunctioning of the automation system with a free gate in the traumatic system is not a mistake in the design of the weapon. The true reason is that the traumatic cartridges have a very large difference in their kinetic energy. Here is an example. The weapon is designed to use sufficiently powerful ammunition, the seller decided to sell very weak cartridges to the gun owner, praising them and calling them ideal for training firing, and that's the inscription on the box “Training”. Having decided to shoot and hone their skills, the owner of a pistol unexpectedly discovered that he had turned the gun from self-loading into a weapon with a manual reload, because the energy of weak cartridges is not enough for the bolt to go all the way back. Naturally, the gun and the manufacturers are “guilty” of this, but if you replace the return spring with a weaker one, everything will work like a clock. Or the opposite example. Weapons, designed for weak ammunition, charged more powerful. As a result, when the cartridge case is similar to shooting, it is not clear what, and the gun itself periodically refuses due to stuck cartridge cases. We omit the point that in weak samples not only the automation system is designed to use weak cartridges and the use of more powerful ones will lead to weapon breakage, but in this case a more rigid return spring will ensure reliable operation of the automation system, although not for long.

In general, the automatic system with a free gate proved itself in the pistols as the simplest and most reliable, and if it were not for restrictions on the power of ammunition, the free gate would have become the most common in the pistols. However, they were once the most common when self-loading pistols just appeared.

Automation system with a free gate for submachine guns.

In pistols, machine-guns, the free bolt, which occupied its leading place in distribution, continues to occupy, although other automation systems try to press it while the leadership remains behind it. The reason for this spread is not in the fact that only low-power cartridges are used in the free-gate PP, this is a much greater variety of ammunition, but because the designers have found solutions that were unacceptable in pistols.

The simplest solution to the problem is the long stroke of the shutter. Everything works in the same way as in pistols, but at the same time the bolt has a longer stroke, which reduces the load on the parts of the weapon. In pistols, unfortunately, it is difficult to apply, as the dimensions of the weapon will increase dramatically. An example of such an automation system can be the domestic submachine gun Kedr, which can also be seen on the example of its traumatic version of Esaul, although it is not very common and deprived of the opportunity to conduct automatic fire, so that acquaintance is incomplete.

Much more tricky way is the automation system, in which the shot comes from the open shutter. In the previously discussed variants, the normal position of the bolt before a shot is its frontmost, when it rests against the breech breech, in this case everything is exactly the opposite. The normal position of the shutter is its rearmost, with a compressed return spring. Thus, when a shot is fired, the bolt is released, on its way forward, it picks up the cartridge from the magazine, inserts it into the chamber and breaks the primer.

Such an automation system has its advantages and disadvantages. On the positive side, it is worth mentioning the fact that sufficiently powerful ammunition can be used in weapons while maintaining a relatively short stroke of the bolt. This happens because in order for the shutter to start moving in its opposite direction, it must first be stopped, that is, a part of the energy of the powder gases is spent on stopping the shutter and a part so that it starts moving backwards. The negative quality is that the moving parts of the weapon knock it from the aiming point before the shot, therefore, the weapon becomes less accurate. I'll try to write down the points, how it all works.
1. The shutter is in the rearmost position, the chamber is empty, the return spring is compressed.
2. The bolt begins to move forward, picks up a new cartridge from the store.
3. The bolt inserts a new cartridge into the chamber and breaks the primer.
4. A shot is fired, powder gases push a bullet through the barrel, and the bolt is braked through the sleeve.
5. Shutter stops
6. The shutter, receiving energy from the powder gases through the sleeve, begins to move backwards.
7. The bolt pulls the cartridge case from the chamber and throws it out.
8. Having reached its rearmost point, the shutter stops, compressing the return spring (for a single fire mode).

In general, everything is simple, you can even say that everything is the same, just the numbering of the actions was shifted. An example of the use of such an automation system can be at least PCA. The free shutter automation system is inherently the first automation system on the basis of which the first self-loading weapon models were made, so that it can be said that this system is one of the oldest. Despite all its limitations on the power of ammunition, it still remains a fairly common system, and its reliability and ease of production make many gun manufacturers pay attention to it.

Fixed shutter automation system.

Unlike the previous automation system, the fixed shutter is very rare, one can even say that it does not occur at all, but since such an automation system exists, it cannot be missed, especially since it, just like the previous one, does not lock the bore rigidly so they are somewhat similar. At the same time, an automatic system with a fixed shutter is a kind of exception, since all the other options used in self-loading weapons cannot do without it. Weapons with a similar automation system are very, very few, the most famous is the gun Manlichera M1894.

It is not necessary to paint this automation system for a long time, everything works very simply and clearly. As you know, there are rifling holes in the barrel bore, and the bullet itself must pass tightly enough along the barrel bore to maximize the use of powder gases. Thus, if the barrel of the weapon was mobile, then when fired, the bullet would push it forward due to the friction force that occurs when it passes through the barrel. It is on the basis of a rolling barrel and fixed-gate automatics works. In other words, instead of using a mobile gate for reloading, pushed by the energy obtained from the powder gases, a completely different principle of operation was used, in which the powder gases, although participating, do not have a direct relationship to the automation system. It all works as follows.

1. When the powder charge ignites, the bullet begins to move along the barrel, pushed by the powder gases, while the barrel of the weapon, having a greater mass than the bullet, also begins its advance, but this is almost imperceptible.
2. The bullet leaves the barrel of the weapon, and the barrel itself, having received enough energy from the bullet to roll forward completely, begins to move, compressing the return spring.
3. The barrel goes forward, freeing the cartridge case, which falls out, having received the long-awaited freedom, independently, or else pushed by a spring-loaded element.
4. The barrel reaches its extreme front point, maximally compressing the return spring.
5. Under the action of the recoil spring, the barrel begins to move back, while it picks up a new cartridge from the chamber.
6. The barrel rests on a fixed bolt and the weapon is ready for the next shot.

As is clear from the description, there is nothing difficult to associate a moving barrel with a gun trigger, for its automatic cocking, well, or to introduce a double-action firing mechanism. This automation system is quite interesting and simple, but its implementation requires a very precise fit of parts, in particular, the barrel and frame, so that the movement of the barrel does not affect the accuracy of the weapon. Naturally, the durability of the weapon will depend on the quality of the materials used, and in this case it is in any case subject to very rapid wear. Thus, weapons with such an automation system will need constant lubrication, will be very susceptible to contamination and will not last long, even with the highest-quality production. Actually this was the reason that weapons with a similar automation system are very rare.

For the first part of the material on weapons automation systems, I think that will be enough, and there is still a lot of interesting things ahead.

PS The first photo is not a suicide club, people have ice cream in the form of pistols in their hands.
Photos used:

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  1. Yozhas
    Yozhas 29 May 2013 08: 55
    Now spreading is a weapon with electric ignition - an electric hammer. For example, trauma OSA. The Germans and Americans are already developing a military weapon with an electric hammer. It will be reliable, unpretentious - we'll see.
    1. scrabler
      29 May 2013 09: 51
      It is simpler, you can not argue here, but there are doubts about reliability, although this principle has been used for a very long time, but personally I don’t think that 50 will change something in this direction in the coming years.
      Question to all, is it worth continuing to write a series of articles on automation systems, how do you think it is useful in general? And then I look minus people, or I screwed up somewhere or just not interested in well-known facts to sort through smile
      1. bazilio
        bazilio 29 May 2013 10: 20
        Quote: scrabler
        The question to all is whether to continue to write a series of articles on automation systems, do you think it is useful at all

        Sorry for the immodesty, but it was my suggestion to write a number of similar articles. And I believe that this series should be continued.
        Let me explain why. A boy of 12-13 years old played in what kind of shooter like CoD MW4, he liked some kind of barrel there, wanted to know what was it. I went to the topvar, saw an article about this barrel and reads, for example, "this pistol uses the classic automatic scheme with a short barrel stroke, where to lower the breech of the barrel, a figured cutout is used in the high tide under the chamber, which interacts with a rigidly fixed pin (finger)" Do you think , the kid will understand what it is about? I think no. And if this article contains a link to a similar reference article, then there is a chance that the kid will become interested.
        It also happened on the site that some enlightened readers are also unfamiliar with some fundamental principles of automation schemes, ballistics, etc. I, as it turned out, had a somewhat erroneous idea of ​​free-hanging trunks, until in the comments on the article about the American remake of the mosinka, knowledgeable comrades explained to me what was happening, for which I thank them.
        And lastly, do not consider it criticism, but it seems to me that understanding requires more pictures, schemes, and preferably animated ones.
        Cyril, thanks for the article
        1. anomalocaris
          anomalocaris 31 May 2013 17: 50
          I do not know. Young people are crushing today. I depicted my first arson at the age of 11. And what did I do at 13 ... As I recall, the hair stands on end, and in all places.
          1. dustycat
            dustycat 23 June 2013 16: 46
            In xnumx?
            My first was the alteration of a children's cannon under construction K4.
            I was 9 then ...
            Passed a lightweight cast aluminum bolt-bolt to replace with steel.
            But what was the effectiveness !!!
      2. denisey
        denisey 29 May 2013 10: 40
        Quote: scrabler
        Question to all, is it worth continuing to write a series of articles on automation systems, how do you think it is useful in general? And then I look minus people, or I screwed up somewhere or just not interested in well-known facts to sort through

        No, the series must be continued. Interesting all the same!
        1. I think so
          I think so 29 May 2013 13: 50
          I would like to continue, but here really schemes and drawings on the principles of action would need more. But it’s clear that this is so time-consuming ... and it is not known who will spend their efforts and time on such a thing ... and even after spending whether to get a QUALITY product that is beautiful and understandable to everyone ...
          1. anomalocaris
            anomalocaris 30 May 2013 16: 58
            Typing in the search engine "Fedorov VG History of the rifle", Fedorov VG The evolution of small arms "," Blagonravov A.A. Material part of small arms "," Markevich V.E. Hand firearms "... There is a lot more. And much more serious, only you do not read the comments ... And, accordingly, this literature is beyond your understanding.
      3. carbofo
        carbofo 29 May 2013 14: 41

        Find on the Internet animation schemes of automation, I saw such.
        The people will like it.
      4. anomalocaris
        anomalocaris 29 May 2013 17: 14
        More than doubt.
        By taxonomy, writing articles makes sense only for review. Anyone who is interested can download the wonderful monographs of Markevich, Fedorov, Bolotin, Blagonravov, Fedoseev and others. Alas, the format of the articles will give nothing but general education.
        1. bazilio
          bazilio 29 May 2013 17: 33
          Quote: anomalocaris
          Alas, the format of the articles will give nothing but general education.

          Well, at least a general education will be already good. If you look, interest will appear and young people will begin to be deeply interested
          1. anomalocaris
            anomalocaris 30 May 2013 16: 02
            But the same Fedorov wrote so that you read as fiction.
          2. anomalocaris
            anomalocaris 31 May 2013 17: 47
            Youth ... And is she interested?
      5. folds
        folds 29 May 2013 20: 51
        It seems to me that there are no articles on the site without cons. Not a minus in terms of the content of the article, but simply someone who is even neutral, will certainly put a minus to any opinions that do not affect the article. It is necessary to make this correction for the error in the evaluation of articles;)
      6. dustycat
        dustycat 23 June 2013 16: 41
        For most victims of the exam, reading such articles is required.
        That would not appear sulfur sulfate.
        And "slides! Slides! Slides!" pictures of schemes would be more.
      7. Alex
        Alex 17 September 2013 21: 46
        Cyril, be sure to write, I will read with interest and pleasure. Someone, of course, is not interested, someone, naturally, knows a lot, for someone, of course, it is very simple and primitive, but many will be both interested and useful. Big "+". It's a pity that one, that's why hi fellow good
    2. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris 30 May 2013 15: 59
      With electric ignition - hardly. Very unreliable during more or less long storage outside the boundaries of specially equipped warehouses. Weapons with an electromagnetic drummer have already been around for 70 years.
  2. avt
    avt 29 May 2013 09: 55
    Likbez for lazy people laughing Soon the author will have to give explanations personally for mitofanushki. laughing
    1. scrabler
      29 May 2013 21: 53
      Well, for what man zaminusovali? smile
      1. avt
        avt 29 May 2013 22: 11
        Quote: scrabler
        Well, for what man zaminusovali?

        Yes, did it laughing It’s so easy. Well, maybe those who are too lazy even to find something on the Internet themselves, see, comprehend and only then, if they do not understand, ask.
      2. crambol
        crambol 29 May 2013 22: 18
        I answer. If avt considers himself a great specialist in weapons, this does not give him the right to dismiss those who are interested in this issue. I know several great specialists who, at a venerable age, flipped with interest the old issues of "Young Technician" - the textbook on which our technical intelligentsia was brought up.
        1. scrabler
          29 May 2013 22: 29
          Well, a man without anger wrote, we are the kindest section of the resource, we do not put minuses smile So if you have an internal conflict there, then let's put up wink
        2. avt
          avt 30 May 2013 10: 11
          Quote: crambol
          I know several great specialists who, at a venerable age, flipped with interest the old issues of "Young Technician" - the textbook on which our technical intelligentsia was brought up.

          As a "great specialist" I can recommend the publishing house "Children's Literature" of Soviet times, you will learn a lot of interesting things, very interesting people retired there, again in Soviet times, as well as in "Foreign Literature". For example, Pavel Sudoplatov , after serving a full term in Vladimir Central. And the old "Yuniy Tekhnik" was a worthy magazine, as well as "Tekhnika Molodezhi" from the time of Zakharchenko.
          1. bazilio
            bazilio 30 May 2013 16: 07
            Comrades avt and crambol
            Let's just not get personal, remember UT, TM, and Murzilka magazine. Articles are read and commented on by people with different levels of knowledge in the arms business. If someone said something wrong, you can simply and calmly explain to the person what he is wrong about.

            Quote: avt
            we are the kindest section of the resource

            but even here there were holivar offtops about ovs, geyropa, Jews, who stole what from whom, etc.))) For example, read the comments to the article "Izhmash" turned his attention to the bullpup layout, which was written by Kirill.
  3. scrabler
    29 May 2013 10: 00
    And I am always "for", if a person is interested, then why not explain?)))
  4. PSih2097
    PSih2097 29 May 2013 10: 04
    visual material:
    Side view

    View from above
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris 29 May 2013 17: 18
      Above "High Power" diagram Below is a diagram of HK P9. One on a short barrel stroke, the other on a semi-free bolt. Where is the correlation?
      1. PSih2097
        PSih2097 29 May 2013 21: 58
        Where is the correlation?

        I'm talking about the general principle of automation in pistols, I know that manufacturers have their own patented subtleties, but the general principle is the same everywhere ...
        For the full, I can finish the work of Luger and Colt automation, but the meaning will remain the same ...
        1. anomalocaris
          anomalocaris 30 May 2013 15: 55
          Hello. This is why the principle of automation is "the same everywhere"?
          There are no special subtleties. By the way, "Desert Eagle" generally has a gas outlet automation.
          In the P08 and Colt M1911A1, the automation is based on a short barrel stroke.
    2. scrabler
      29 May 2013 22: 12
      And these pictures we will spionerim for the following articles smile
  5. bunta
    bunta 29 May 2013 10: 22
    Dear Cyril! Of course he screwed up in some places. But I didn’t set a minus. It’s worth continuing anyway! Unfortunately, I don’t have time to parse the errors yet. But, by the way, in specialized literature, these errors are also present. So it's okay. Go ahead and with the song!
  6. karbofos
    karbofos 29 May 2013 13: 29
    Dear Cyril, The article is a definite plus, you must continue! if something the guys on the site will correct in some issues but such articles are needed. And yet, yes, more pictures and schemes for clarity. with uv.
  7. Pablo_K
    Pablo_K 29 May 2013 13: 59
    It’s necessary to explain elementary things so tedious and long,
    A 12-year-old kid reading an example about balls will become even more confused.
    1. Alex
      Alex 17 September 2013 21: 58
      The picture with balls is from a school textbook on physics, just for that age. The topic is the law of conservation of momentum (in fact, all automation is built on it, because recoil is its manifestation in its purest form, I myself cite this example in the classroom). So if something is not clear to your kid - to school, to teach physics.
  8. vkrav
    vkrav 29 May 2013 14: 10
    Who understands - to whom it is useless. And who does not understand - to that Beetle to help. With pictures :).
  9. USNik
    USNik 29 May 2013 14: 13
    There is a wonderful program for virtual 3D assembly / disassembly of weapons, called Gun disassembly 2 . It offers several models for free to review, a bunch of the rest of the trunks can be bought at a price of 1 to 3 dead raccoons. Offsite
    Also, a lot of information on the former, 4pda wink ...
  10. Terrible ensign
    Terrible ensign 29 May 2013 15: 03
    An article in the topic. Useful. Especially for those who have not served, but who are interested. Well, and, of course, A.B. Beetle to the rescue! ..
  11. alex-cn
    alex-cn 29 May 2013 15: 48
    Quote: Hedgehog
    Now spreading weapons with electric ignition

    FN proposed the first samples of small hunting weapons with electric ignition back in the 60s, since then this either disappears. except the wasp and the guard, where this system is scolded for unreliability (of course, these are the jambs of the manufacturer), in my opinion, this system took root only in LNG-9 and 2a28
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris 30 May 2013 16: 26
      I will disappoint you. The first electric ignition systems date back to the 80s of the XNUMXth century.
    2. Trdtt
      Trdtt 24 March 2014 21: 05
      Ay yay! But what about all our tanks with 125mm guns. ??
  12. bunta
    bunta 29 May 2013 16: 22
    I will try to explain the inaccuracy of the description of the free-gate circuit. If we consider it as
    a system of tubes with two pistons, the question arises - why do you need an ejector? Indeed -
    gases press on the bottom of the sleeve, it is on the shutter mirror, then the gases simply have to spit the sleeve out of the chamber.
    Why is it necessary to fix the sleeve in the cup of the shutter by means of an ejector if the gases are already pressing in the same direction both on the sleeve and through it on the shutter? It turns out like Baron Munchausen, who pulled himself out of a swamp by a pigtail. The sleeve presses on the shutter, and he pulls out the sleeve. It’s strange.
    1. scrabler
      29 May 2013 21: 52
      Not exactly, the sleeve transmits energy from the powder gases, that is, roughly speaking, a short-term pulse equal to the time the bullet moves along the barrel, after the bullet leaves the barrel, the sleeve no longer affects the gate, the pressure in the barrel decreases sharply to ambient pressure. Since the shutter has a mass, the shutter continues to move even without being pushed, so it’s not the sleeve that pushes the shutter, but the shutter pulls the sleeve. And when extracting a spent cartridge case, which is held by the ejector, the sleeve is pushed onto the reflector, something turns out like a case tilt when the reflector locks the sleeve on one side and the ejector continues to pull it back. Well, something like that) Probably started from the wrong side, it was necessary to describe such nuances for a start, and then move on to automation systems smile
      1. bazilio
        bazilio 30 May 2013 16: 18
        sorry for the offtopic, the topic about mitrofanushek and the technique of young people- That's what I mean. Comrade Bunta disagreed with Kirill, but did not begin to declare "Metrofanushka, you think what you write, go teach materiel", but calmly stated his opinion in expanded form. Cyril, in turn, did not answer "Himself, kill the wall," and just as calmly, without becoming personal, stated his point of view. Here you can conduct dialogues in a human way.
        1. scrabler
          31 May 2013 20: 33
          Well, tyk Christmas trees, I always say that before you swear, you need to figure out what's what) The Russian language is of course the height of perfection, but even in text form it cannot convey emotions in full, therefore very often the interlocutors during correspondence do not understand each other friend. And then we have already become a tradition, almost swearing and "Baba Yaga is against" almost so immediately, you need to be more tolerant of each other wink
    2. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris 30 May 2013 16: 32
      Fixation of the sleeve is necessary for its normal positioning in the chamber before firing. In addition, there were systems in which the ejector was absent, moreover, the cartridges of these units did not even have a groove. That's just their reliability was below the plinth.
  13. crambol
    crambol 29 May 2013 17: 07
    Quote: avt
    Educational program for lazy people Soon the author will have to give explanations for mitrofanushki personally.

    The ability to clarify a complex problem, mitrofanushki, not everyone is given. The simplicity of presentation often helps to find new ideas and approaches to problems in scientific research. The respected Cyril has this ability.
  14. Colonel
    Colonel 29 May 2013 17: 28
    Thanks to the author, and a competent person to look through an interestingly published alphabet.
  15. leonardo_1971
    leonardo_1971 29 May 2013 18: 09
    there were still cartridges for the PMM. more powerful. but then they disappeared. who unknowingly used them in the PM then the bolt broke as a result. and in the PMM there were cuts in the cartridge for more effort when ejecting the cartridge case. Who doesn’t know the Makarov’s PMM gun .12 charging.
  16. scrabler
    29 May 2013 22: 13
    By the way, the picture with the PM is flash, you need to click on the "Device" button
  17. luiswoo
    luiswoo 30 May 2013 00: 16
    the most famous is the Manlicher M1894 pistol.

    Maybe more famous, but the video was found only with a Schwarzlose gun, the 1908 model of the year ...

    (shooting from 9: 20)
    Beautiful machine. I want to ...
    1. luiswoo
      luiswoo 30 May 2013 00: 35
      He is almost a slow motion:
      1. scrabler
        30 May 2013 08: 11
        Thank you so much for the info, and even video. I did not know about such a device smile
        1. luiswoo
          luiswoo 30 May 2013 14: 58
          I wonder why everything was amicably hammered on on this type of automation? Schwarzlose 1908 looks quite viable ..
          1. anomalocaris
            anomalocaris 30 May 2013 16: 49
            It is not very viable. At low energies, you have what is visible on the video - that is, a very sharp return, and then a jerk forward. This is extremely uncomfortable. for more powerful cartridges this system is generally not acceptable, because it provides a very early exit of the sleeve from the chamber, which leads to its transverse rupture, or bloating. Although there have been attempts, and not entirely unsuccessful.
            1. luiswoo
              luiswoo 30 May 2013 20: 45
              Quote: anomalocaris
              that is, a very sharp return, and then a jerk forward

              Actually, he manages to recharge even during the recoil - that is, there is no jerk forward. The fact that the return is sharp is the fault of an excessively narrow handle, if I understood correctly.
              I agree about a more powerful cartridge. For 9 × 19 would have to fence gardens ...
              Although there have been attempts, and not entirely unsuccessful.

              If not difficult, which ones?
              1. anomalocaris
                anomalocaris 31 May 2013 17: 45
                The impulse of a very heavy trunk is given to the handle before the barrel reaches an extremely forward position. And then follows the blow of the barrel on the frame. This, by the way, is very clearly visible in the video.
                There was such a system of Yasnikov in the early 30s. That's just, unfortunately, in addition to 4 paragraphs in different sources, I have not met. The only thing I know is that this unit passed the field tests in 1931.
          2. Trdtt
            Trdtt 24 March 2014 18: 57
            I am referring to the work of the luminary of weapons AB Zhuk "Revolvers and pistols" and I do not want anyone to think that I am very smart. The reasons why such a weapon scheme did not take root ".. very sharp recoil and a tangible blow to the arrow's index finger when the barrel reaches the forward position"
  18. bunta
    bunta 30 May 2013 00: 51
    Quote: leonardo_1971
    in the PMM there were cuts in the cartridge for more effort when ejecting the sleeve

    How can rifling increase sleeve ejection force? They are inside the chamber, reduce the area of ​​contact between the chamber and the sleeve. That is, they reduce friction (force when ejecting the sleeve). Barbs are needed to increase friction! The fact is that there really are grooves. Their full name is Revelli's grooves. They feed part of the gas from the barrel into the space between the liner and the chamber just to facilitate the extraction of the liner. A more powerful PMM cartridge led to the fact that the sleeve was more closely sealed to the chamber, and this could lead to a transverse rupture of the sleeve. Revelli grooves, if my memory serves me, were used in Stg-44.
    PS Cyril, I'm sorry, but so far I can’t expand on the topic. The work does not and yet grabbed bronchitis.
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris 30 May 2013 17: 12
      You confuse Revelli's grooves a little with the transverse grooves in the chamber that are not connected to the bore. When fired, the sleeve is strongly deformed and pressed against the walls of the chamber. Revelli grooves at a certain length compensate for the internal pressure due to the pressure of the powder gases in the bore, because they are connected with it. The transverse grooves are not connected to the bore. Accordingly, the sleeve is extruded into them, which increases friction. And very seriously. So much so that provides the ability to shoot very powerful ammunition with a free shutter.
      1. bunta
        bunta 30 May 2013 23: 16
        Quote: anomalocaris
        Transverse grooves

        Weapon model studio!
        1. anomalocaris
          anomalocaris 31 May 2013 17: 57
          Well, just like that, in the states in the 50s they depicted a pistol under .30karabayn. He just had such grooves, just for now, at least kill me, I don’t remember what he was called.
          PMM had a similar chamber profile.
          1. bunta
            bunta 31 May 2013 23: 20
            Quote: anomalocaris
            even kill, I don’t remember

            And do not try. For the simple reason that no grooves or grooves are needed to slow down the ejection of a sleeve. It is much cheaper to increase the stiffness of the spring or increase the mass of the shutter. In the end, do you seriously believe that changing the transverse profile by tenths of a percent can significantly reduce the effort of a few centners per square centimeter? What is available in the PMM is the Revelli grooves or the Pletsky-Shigapov recesses ( wink ) only serves to facilitate extraction and to prevent transverse rupture. The only difference is that the narrow grooves of Revelli are easily clogged with soot ...
            1. anomalocaris
              anomalocaris 1 June 2013 07: 46
              We read and are moved.
              Not cheaper. Moreover, an increase in the mass of the shutter (especially for a pistol) as well as an increase in the stiffness of the spring are very limited, otherwise you can get something insanely.
              You don’t understand what the change in profile at such pressures means. Moreover, the area of ​​the walls of the liner is several times larger than the area of ​​the bottom.
              1. bunta
                bunta 1 June 2013 08: 38
                Quote: anomalocaris
                We read and are moved.

                Sorry, but condescending ... An unsuccessful attempt to reduce the energy of a kilo-joule (weapons!) Cartridge by bending lips... wink in the gun ... wink
                Indeed, the article clearly states how this venture ended:
                "The Kimball company ceased production after 238 specimens had been made."
                And above it is clearly stated why - not a damn thing, this depression did not work.
                1. anomalocaris
                  anomalocaris 1 June 2013 08: 56
                  Firstly, I did not say that such a chamber device was viable; I said that it was.
                  Secondly, it worked, but how effective is another matter.
                  Thirdly, I don’t know where the lip of the pistol is and where they tried to bend it. Please explain.
                  Fourth, leave your indulgence to yourself, it will come in handy.
          2. Trdtt
            Trdtt 24 March 2014 19: 05
            It was called "Air Cru" chambered for the Grand M-1 carbine.
  19. Ilya Mikhalych
    Ilya Mikhalych 30 May 2013 15: 52
    Interesting article . In principle, I knew how automation works with a free shutter, but I just don’t understand how the shutter lag occurs.
    1. bazilio
      bazilio 30 May 2013 16: 37
      It's pretty simple. When, after firing the last cartridge, the bolt rolls back, the magazine feeder raises the very bolt delay. For clarity - in this article the picture "PM device" is a GIF, at the bottom of the picture there is a "device" button (if you hover over the button, the cursor instead of an arrow will become a hand with an index finger), click on it. The picture with the appearance of the PM will change to a picture of the PM in a section, buttons will appear to remove the fuse, remove the magazine, etc. When you get to "pull the trigger" shoot the entire magazine and after the last shot you will see how the slide delay works.
  20. Trdtt
    Trdtt 24 March 2014 18: 45
    Good day to all gun lovers! I am pleased to join the forum. I would like to share my opinion on the article. The design is on the level, everything is almost sensible. But here are some of the inaccuracies in theory somewhat upsetting. So about the work of automation with a free shutter. The explanation with balls and pistons is somewhat inaccurate. The author does not explain why and from what the bolt of the weapon (in particular the PM) is accelerated, which, having received an impulse further due to inertia, reloads the weapon. Everything is very simple. The "highlight" is the thickened bottom of the pistol cartridge case, which serves as a gas piston. When fired (before the bullet leaves the muzzle), the pistol bolt just accelerates in an area equal to the thickness of the sleeve bottom (while the walls of the sleeve still do not extend beyond the chamber cut and, as a result, do not swell). In addition, in the design of the PM (whoever disassembled it, he probably paid attention), the shutter at the beginning of the movement has a free stroke approximately equal to just the thickness of the sleeve bottom, after which it rests on the trigger, additionally slows down and cocks the trigger. By the time the bottom of the case leaves the chamber, the bullet leaves the barrel.
    There is an error on the PCA. The author confuses the PPSh automation system, with a weapon that fires "on rollout" where the shot occurs before the shutter stops when it moves forward (such automation was occasionally used and is used in anti-aircraft guns to increase the rate of fire). This does not happen in the PPSh, since the shutter sends the cartridge with the front edge of the ejector. When the cartridge rests in the chamber, the spring-loaded ejector is reflected from the edge of the case bottom, jumps into the groove and passes the bolt with a fixed drummer, which in turn pricks the primer and stops. So there can be no question of dampening the inertia of the shutter during a shot. I hope the information will be useful and in no case do I want to offend the author.