Project 66 cruisers. About the first post-war shipbuilding program for 1946-1955.

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Project 66 cruisers. About the first post-war shipbuilding program for 1946-1955.

Project 66 cruisers were not included in the Soviet fleet: in fact, they never even reached the point of being laid down. Work on them was stopped at the stage of approving the preliminary design, which was adjusted in accordance with the Navy's wishes.

And yet in stories These ships can be considered a milestone in shipbuilding. The fact is that work on them was finally stopped only in September 1954, making Project 66 the last project of a large ship designed to destroy the enemy in artillery combat, developed in the USSR and, most likely, worldwide. Let's look at how the Soviet Navy came to the need for such ships in its arsenal.

On the first iterations of the post-war shipbuilding program


In 1945, the People's Commissar of the USSR Navy, N. G. Kuznetsov, began formulating a program for the post-war revival of the fleet. The project was undertaken with great seriousness: in January 1945, a commission was established, comprising leading specialists from the Naval Academy, as well as several high-ranking naval officers. This commission developed recommendations, based on which the Main Naval Staff (GMSh) drafted a ten-year shipbuilding plan for 1946–1955.

According to this plan, the fleet was to have the following in 1956:

1. 9 ships of the line - later their number was reduced to 4;

2. 12 heavy cruisers with 220 mm main caliber (MC) - the number was reduced to 10;

3. 30 cruisers with 180-mm main gun artillery;

4. 54 light cruisers with 152-mm main battery artillery;

5. 12 aircraft carriers, including 6 squadron and 6 small;

6. 358 destroyers, including 132 large ones with 6*130-mm guns in twin turrets and 226 “regular” ones;

7. 495 submarines, including 168 large, 204 medium and 123 small.

On the ten-year shipbuilding plan for 1946-1955.


Unfortunately, it must be stated that this plan demonstrates the presence of a systemic crisis in domestic naval thought of those years.

First, our naval theorists failed to recognize the decisive role played by aircraft carriers in the battles of World War II. The Americans and British concluded that aircraft carriers had become the navy's primary striking force, while heavy gunners were relegated to ensuring the combat stability of carrier squadrons and supporting landings. But in 1945, our naval thinking still viewed heavy gunners as the navy's primary force, and aircraft carriers as a means of ensuring the combat stability of battleships and cruisers.

In defense of our sailors, it should be said that in 1945 they likely didn't have much of the information we have today about military operations in the Pacific, or even about the naval battles of 1939–1944. It can be assumed that the naval experience of World War II wasn't deliberately ignored, but simply hadn't yet reached our sailors. At the same time, combat encounters and fleet tactics, of which our sailors should have been familiar, indicated that gunnery ships largely retained their supremacy at sea. I'm talking now about the Royal Navy's actions in the north, about convoy escort operations in the USSR: here we have the threat of Tirpitz's raiding operations, broadcast by the British, and the British naval groups providing long-range cover for convoys, the backbone of which, after all, were battleships. The destruction of the Scharnhorst in an artillery battle, finally!


Secondly, the extremely questionable balancing of the program by classes and performance characteristics of warships is striking.

Take submarines, for example, with which the Soviet Navy did have some combat experience. This experience demonstrated the extremely limited utility, or rather, the almost complete lack thereof, of small submarines. Nevertheless, according to the plan, almost a quarter of all submarines were to be small. Why?

Dividing submarines into large and medium-sized ones would seem to have had its logic and meaning, as medium-sized ones would be more appropriate for use in limited naval theaters—the Baltic and Black Seas—while large ones would be assigned to the Northern and Pacific Fleets. However, wartime experience has irrefutably proven that, given the current level of US and British anti-submarine warfare, submarines are incapable of operating effectively against ocean lanes without the support of surface ships. aviationBut the surface ships currently in the program couldn't provide such support. And, in any case, if we were to attempt to interrupt ocean communications with submarines, we would obviously need far more of them than the 168 large submarines planned for construction.

The Kriegsmarine's experience showed, once again, that medium-sized submarines were quite suitable for ocean operations. Was there much point in creating so many projects?

The cruisers raised even more questions. The post-war US Navy consisted of two "large" Alaska-class cruisers armed with 305mm guns (and one under construction), 21 heavy cruisers with 203mm main guns (with seven more under construction), 33 relatively modern light cruisers with 152mm guns (and four under construction), six Atlant-class cruisers with 127mm guns, and ten older, combat-depleted Omaha-class cruisers armed with 152mm guns. One of these, the Milwaukee, was in the Soviet Navy at the time; it was returned to the Americans in 1949.

As for Great Britain, it had 12 heavy cruisers, two of which, the Hawkins class, were completely obsolete; 24 relatively modern light cruisers with 152mm guns; 11 Dido and Improved Dido-class cruisers with 133mm guns; and 14 completely ancient cruisers of the C, D, and E classes (and the Adelaide class alone). The latter were built during and immediately after the First World War, so they had completely lost their combat value—as had the Hawkins class and the American Omaha-class cruisers. In addition, the British had eight light cruisers under construction, although work on them was halted shortly after the end of the war, and only three (the Tiger class) were subsequently completed.

Thus, excluding obsolete cruisers, the USA and England had at their disposal 2 “large” cruisers with 305-mm guns, 31 heavy cruisers with 203-mm main guns (7 under construction), 57 light cruisers with 152-mm artillery (12 under construction) and 17 light cruisers with 127-133-mm guns, and a total of 107 cruisers in service and 19 under construction.



Here we see an extremely strange imbalance in the shipbuilding program for 1946-55. N.G. Kuznetsov did not strive for parity in battleships—the US and UK had 14 modern battleships and 5 under construction. Accordingly, even without the keel-laying of new ships of this class in the US and UK, and with 100% fulfillment of N.G. Kuznetsov's proposed plan, the balance of forces would have been 9:19, more than twice as unfavorable for the Soviet Navy. Moreover, even before the plan was submitted to I.V. Stalin, the number of battleships had been reduced, and the ratio would have been 4:19.

The situation with aircraft carriers was no better: the US had 18 heavy carriers in service, not even counting the Ranger and Lexington, and 12 under construction, while there were 8 light carriers, and this number, of course, doesn't include dozens of escort carriers. Britain had 6 heavy carriers in service and 3 under construction, and 7 light carriers in service and 4 under construction. Therefore, in the best-case scenario, the ratio for this class would have been 6:39 for heavy carriers and 6:19 for light carriers. As with battleships, we can speak of the absolute superiority of the US and British navies in this class of ships.

At the same time, in accordance with N. G. Kuznetsov's proposals, the number of cruisers was planned to be increased to 96. Thus, of all large warships, the ratio of forces for this class of ships would be the most favorable—94:126.

And this desire to approach parity in cruisers seems a completely inexplicable phenomenon. The naval experience of Soviet sailors indicated that it was the Nazi battleships concentrated in Norway that became a serious deterrent to the British fleet, not the German cruisers.

It's also very difficult to imagine for what purposes and in what operations Soviet admirals intended to use their cruisers, who would have to operate against an overwhelming enemy superiority in battleships and aircraft carriers. According to the concept, fleet forces were to be organized into operational-tactical formations—squadrons—but in such a case, it would be logical to expect a clash with an enemy of equal or superior numbers. At the same time, even without considering aircraft carriers as the fleet's primary striking force, our sailors should not have ignored the increased situational awareness provided by carrier-based aviation. And since the enemy would have far more such aircraft, it was to be expected that US and British admirals would find it much easier to intercept a Soviet squadron with superior forces than for a Soviet squadron to catch them off guard.

All this suggests that, even with the views of our naval warfare theorists, who still considered artillery ships to be the backbone of the fleet, Soviet cruisers should have been prepared:

1. To counter the heavy cruisers of the USA and England:

2. Support your battleships by firing at enemy battleships.

Clearly, heavy cruisers best met these requirements, but only 12 of the total 94 were planned for construction. And before the report to I.V. Stalin, this number was reduced to 10!

The plans to build cruisers with 180mm and 152mm guns raise equally many questions. The use of 180mm guns as the main battery could be justified if, for one reason or another, light cruisers were required that could better counter heavy cruisers than ships with 152mm guns.


Therefore, if the Soviet Navy had completely abandoned the construction of light cruisers with 152mm main guns and instead armed them with 180mm guns, there might well have been some tactical justification. However, it's extremely difficult to find any logic in building cruisers with both guns simultaneously. Of course, in certain combat situations, the 152mm caliber would be preferable to the 180mm, but the difference isn't so great as to justify arguing with two different types of ships.

Here, of course, one could argue that the British and Americans also had two types of light cruisers: one with 152mm and the other with 127-133mm guns. But the fact is that their intended purpose was very different. While the "six-inch" cruisers of World War II were a development of the classic light cruiser line, ships with 127-133mm guns should be considered a kind of intermediate class between destroyer leaders and light cruisers. The purpose of such ships was primarily to lead destroyers, and secondarily to strengthen the formation's anti-aircraft defense, as the 127-133mm guns were universal. There were, of course, nuances here, stemming from the fact that the British 133mm guns weren't particularly suited for targeting aircraft, while the Atlant-class 127mm "universal" guns, while certainly excellent, were significantly less effective on ships of comparatively small displacement. Nevertheless, unlike 152mm gun mounts, even those that were technically capable of repelling aerial threats, the main battery guns of the Dido and Atlant-class ships could not only fire at aircraft but also occasionally hit them.

Thus, the British and American division of light cruisers into two branches was, to some extent, theoretically justified, although this theory was not tested in practice. However, it is very difficult to come up with any sensible theoretical basis for the plans to simultaneously build cruisers with 152mm and 180mm guns for the post-war Soviet Navy.

So, I've listed two serious shortcomings of the domestic ten-year plan for military shipbuilding, but there was a third. This shipbuilding plan completely failed to take into account the capabilities of the domestic industry. The point here isn't that the proposed construction rates were overly optimistic, but that the plan was completely divorced from reality. It's certainly conceivable that the People's Commissar of the Navy was attempting to achieve some political objectives with this plan, acting on the logic of "if you want a lot, you'll get little, but that's no reason to ask for little and get nothing." Or perhaps he wanted to demonstrate to the country's leadership what kind of navy was needed to accomplish the tasks assigned to it, so that these objectives could be adjusted. It's also possible that the People's Commissar of the Navy was initially tasked by I.V. Stalin with preparing a plan for the construction of a "dream fleet" as a kind of basic document, through the discussion of which a realistic plan would emerge.

All of this is possible. But there's little doubt that politically, such a plan wasn't the right decision. The fact is that declaring a gigantic and obviously unfeasible naval construction program could in no way facilitate the establishment of a working relationship with the People's Commissariat of the Shipbuilding Industry, then headed by I.I. Nosenko, or with V.A. Malyshev, Deputy Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars, who oversaw the People's Commissariat of the Shipbuilding Industry.

After all, if the sailors had pushed through their plan, the People's Commissariat of the Shipbuilding Industry would have been held accountable for its implementation, and I.V. Stalin would have held it accountable in the most strict manner. Meanwhile, the post-war country lay in ruins; the construction of large warships had practically stopped during the war, there was a drastic labor shortage, and so on and so forth.

It's now very difficult to say how events might have unfolded if N.G. Kuznetsov had presented a more or less realistic plan, drawn up taking into account the capabilities of the domestic post-war industry. But in reality, the People's Commissariat of the Shipbuilding Industry, defending its departmental interests, launched a decisive attack on the navy.

In fact, it was then that the sailors lost their aircraft carriers, and the problem wasn't Stalin's fault—he wasn't a principled opponent of them. Stalin himself raised the issue of the Northern Fleet's need for aircraft carriers when, at a meeting with N.G. Kuznetsov, he realized that our warships would need to operate not only in the Barents Sea but also much further west. It was then that Stalin, on his own initiative, suggested, "Perhaps we should build two small ones for now?" And after a brief explanation from the sailors, he concluded, "Let's build two small ones."

But I.I. Nosenko declared that the USSR's shipbuilding industry was incapable of constructing such new, unusual, and highly complex ships, and he stood firm. The People's Commissar of the Shipbuilding Industry was defending his departmental interests, of course, because the aircraft carrier of that era did not represent the pinnacle of technological progress; it became so much later. However, it was precisely the pressure of I.I. Nosenko and V.A. Malyshev that led to the exclusion of two small aircraft carriers from the final version of the 1946-55 shipbuilding program.

Certainly, the sailors' demands were extremely high. But it's impossible to say that the People's Commissariat of the Shipbuilding Industry's position was more sound—in fact, I. I. Nosenko insisted that in the post-war decade, the country build ships exclusively to pre-war designs, slightly modernized by installing new equipment.

The truth undoubtedly lay somewhere between the polar positions of the sailors and the People's Commissariat of the Shipbuilding Industry. It is, however, completely unknown whether any of N.G. Kuznetsov's actions could have led I.I. Nosenko and V.A. Malyshev to constructive compromises. But it is certain that the presentation of a program that included, in addition to ships of other classes, nearly a hundred cruisers and five hundred submarines, was clearly not conducive to such compromises.

In general, the number and classes of ships to be built were determined as a result of a struggle for influence over I.V. Stalin between the Navy and the People's Commissariat of the Shipbuilding Industry, and it can be said that the latter won this battle. However, since issues of military shipbuilding acquired a distinctly political tint, adherence to one position or another became a political matter, capable of affecting the career advancement of the person declaring such adherence.

These were likely the considerations that guided Admiral of the Fleet I.S. Isakov when, in his 1947 article on aircraft carriers, he compared them to "dead bodies and floating coffins." It's certainly possible that Isakov genuinely considered aircraft carriers an obsolete rarity, which raises questions about the competence of this admiral, who had served as Deputy Commander-in-Chief of the USSR Navy for the Study and Application of War Experience since February 1947. However, it is highly likely that Isakov's article sought to "decisively distance himself" from the line taken by the disgraced N.G. Kuznetsov, who had urged I.V. Stalin, among other things, on the need to build an aircraft carrier fleet.

I.S. Isakov certainly received some dividends: in 1950, he became Deputy Minister of the USSR Navy. But it was probably with him that the persecution of aircraft carriers in the USSR Navy began. weapon aggression, which we certainly don't need. And, without a doubt, I.S. Isakov is one of the culprits behind the fact that the USSR's nuclear-missile ocean-going fleet never received the ships of this class it so desperately needed.

Ultimately, the shipbuilding program for 1946–55 was approved by the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR by Resolution No. 2988-883 of November 27, 1945, "On the Ten-Year Plan for Military Shipbuilding." According to the resolution, we were to build:

1. Heavy cruisers - 4 units;

2. Light cruisers - 30 units;

3. Destroyers - 188 units;

4. Patrol ships - 177 units;

5. Submarines - 367 units;

6. Submarine hunters - 945 units;

7. Torpedo boats - 828 units;

8. Minesweepers - 816 units;

9. Landing ships - 195 units;

10. Monitors - 54 units;

11. Armored boats - 370 units;

12. Auxiliary vessels – 1,876 units.

In addition, as of 1955, it was planned to have under construction:

1. Battleships - 2 units;

2. Heavy cruisers - 3 units;

3. Light cruisers - 7 units.

I'm inclined to rate this program as completely unbalanced and highly ineffective, even without the benefit of hindsight. Reading it, one gets the feeling that the sailors, albeit not entirely voluntarily, have once again embraced the idea of ​​a "mosquito" fleet, thereby preparing to throw away a ton of public money.

Both N.G. Kuznetsov and I.V. Stalin considered the number of light cruisers completely insufficient, but they agreed with I.I. Nosenko's categorical assertion that industry would not be able to build more ships of this class in ten years. The handful of heavy cruisers included in the plan was the result of a compromise, a concession on the part of the People's Commissariat of the Shipbuilding Industry, which clearly recognized I.V. Stalin's passion for these ships. Battleships were practically eliminated from the program entirely, as the keel-laying of two ships of this class was not scheduled for 1955—and this, undoubtedly, is one of the few advantages of this plan. One can understand the desire to secure anti-submarine defenses on their borders by building numerous patrol ships and submarine hunters. But relying on small ships with a displacement of 70-170 tons would, of course, have meant that these hunters would be unable to perform their functions even at close range from their own shores, and their combat value, given their modest size, would be extremely questionable. At the same time, it was quite clear that in the next decade, the country intended to begin building an ocean-going fleet, which would require neither submarine hunters, nor torpedo boats, nor minesweepers—nearly a thousand ships of each class.

In my opinion, the country overreached in terms of small ships and submarines, planning to create a "mosquito" fleet, excessive for coastal defense and useless at sea. Undoubtedly, the navy definitely needed submarines, small submarine chasers, minesweepers, and torpedo boats, but in much more modest quantities. However, that's just my opinion.

As for the cruisers, things got quite interesting. The fact is that N. G. Kuznetsov, while putting forward his utopian program, was attempting to build a balanced fleet. True, as mentioned above, the balance of this fleet was off on all fours, but that was precisely the commander's aspiration. At the same time, the program actually adopted made no attempt at balance whatsoever: they planned to build a fleet from whatever the People's Commissariat of the Shipbuilding Industry agreed to build.

In other words, I. I. Nosenko agreed to build 34 cruisers between 1946 and 55, but there was no tactical justification for such construction. The original program of 9 (later 4) battleships, 12 aircraft carriers, 94 cruisers, etc., did have a tactical justification, albeit based on extremely dubious premises.

It's not that the Soviet Navy didn't need cruisers. They provided sailors with long-distance experience, developed officers, and, in the event of war, would have been useful for operations close to their own shores, including supporting the army's coastal flank, supporting tactical landings, and so on.


But their quantity of 34 units was categorically insufficient for the naval warfare plans according to N. G. Kuznetsov, especially considering the absence of heavy ships of other classes, and for the above-mentioned tasks it was excessive.

In my opinion, it would have been more rational for the USSR in those years to reduce the number of ships of all classes planned for construction, abandon heavy cruisers altogether, and instead lay down at least “two small” aircraft carriers, which would have allowed them to finally begin to gain experience in their operation and develop carrier-based aviation.

But, again, in my opinion, such a program reduction was absolutely impossible. The fact is that the People's Commissariat of Shipbuilding demanded enormous investments to fulfill the ten-year military shipbuilding plan. The problem, as I mentioned above, wasn't that our shipbuilding industry refused to build much; it wanted to build a lot, but not what the fleet needed, but what it could build, what was easier to build. Clearly, a reduction in shipbuilding programs would have entailed a reduction in investment in military shipbuilding and a diminution of its role, which, of course, would have been completely undesirable for I.I. Nosenko.

At the same time, it would have been extremely difficult for the sailors to voluntarily reduce the fleet after the first, "megalomaniacal" version of the shipbuilding program. It would also have been completely wrong politically: it would certainly be possible to reduce the fleet's missions for the next decade, but where is the guarantee that, having agreed to a "coastal" fleet once, it would be possible to justify the need for an ocean-going fleet in the future? Moreover, it seems there was a perfectly reasonable assumption that shipbuilding would not be able to cope with this reduced program.

It was in such an interesting setting that the story of the last project of a large artillery ship of the USSR began.

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  1. +8
    23 July 2026 04: 04
    According to this plan, the fleet was to have the following in 1956:
    1. 9 ships of the line - subsequently their number was reduced to 4;
    2. 12 heavy cruisers with 220 mm main caliber (MC)
    These admirals learned nothing from either the First or the Second World Wars.
    1. +4
      23 July 2026 11: 16
      No offense (to the glorious USSR Navy), but in both WW I and WW II, the fleet (to put it mildly, no offense) was simply moored in ports... for various reasons, but... compared to others (even the much-maligned Italians), it looked... hm, pale... The army managed to restructure itself, and the Red Army of 1945 and the Red Army of 1941 were like heaven and earth... but the fleet... for example, only the Black Sea Fleet commanders were replaced (for their complete failure, by the way), but not the Northern Fleet and Baltic Fleet... (imagine Timoshenko and Pavlov commanding in 1945 instead of Rokossovsky and Konev... well, well).. So what could the admirals learn... how to make excuses to the temporary detention center for sunken ships (and vessels)...
      1. + 12
        23 July 2026 12: 05
        Quote: WapentakeLokki
        No offense (to the glorious Soviet Navy), but in both WW1 and WW2, the fleet (to put it mildly, no offense) was simply parked in ports...

        The Black Sea Fleet in WWI was arguably the most combat-ready navy of any power. Our own "Maria" spent 30% of its allotted time at sea—neither the British nor the Germans had anything comparable.
      2. +1
        26 July 2026 21: 35
        The army restructured itself because it was 100% necessary. The navy, however, was simply robbed throughout the entire war of 1941-45, taking everything they could, primarily personnel. The navy never received any significant reinforcements. It fought with the ships it had in 41. And considering that our admirals were crap even before the war, the ships weren't what was needed. So it turned out that the navy, lacking the necessary personnel and training, couldn't show any results to the leadership, only wasting what it had. And this provoked the leadership to continue to ignore the navy. And so it went until 45, then everything started all over again—the admirals were crap, the government needed to rebuild the country, and it all came to the point that the navy once again demonstrated its weakness in the Cuban Missile Crisis.
    2. 0
      23 July 2026 15: 41
      Strategists don't always prepare for the past war.
    3. -2
      24 July 2026 20: 29
      These admirals learned nothing from either the First or the Second World Wars.

      On the contrary, it taught me. Yes
      1. Russia needs a MOSQUITO fleet. During WWII, boats were frantically built in the US and shipped across the ocean. The MOSQUITOes were in operation, while the destroyers sat in storage ponds. Just like today, basically. wink

      2. A mosquito fleet is REAL for industry, unlike aircraft carriers. Who and where are we planning to carry aircraft? What are the goals?

      So the approved program was just right. hi
    4. 0
      30 July 2026 11: 33
      I wonder what the Second World War should have taught Kuznetsov specifically? In my opinion, many of his decisions were correct. "Death Stars" like the Yamato and Tirpitz failed to justify the investment. Even then, it was clear that it was better to build several ships of smaller displacement (like cruisers) than a single battleship with a displacement of over 50,000 tons. The combined firepower would be greater, and the eggs would be kept in different baskets.
      As for aircraft carriers... The USSR wasn't tasked with projecting its power anywhere on the globe, unlike the West, so the Soviets had unsinkable aircraft carriers—Crimea, Murmansk, Kaliningrad. They could set up any number of airfields for various purposes anywhere.
  2. +5
    23 July 2026 04: 36
    And what's more, the article's last photo shows a Project 68 bis cruiser, the lead ship of the Sverdlov-class series, even though the article is specifically talking about Project 66 cruisers. There's not a single word about Project 68 bis cruisers in the article.
    Look at how they built it! In just a couple of years, the USSR built a whopping 14 of these cruisers, while it took less than a year to build a single Vasily Chapayev-class anti-submarine ship!
    1. +6
      23 July 2026 05: 41
      Quote: north 2
      If the article is specifically talking about Project 66 cruisers

      The author started from afar, talking about plans and post-war shipbuilding in general. Of the completed cruisers, only 68 bis can be shown.
    2. +3
      24 July 2026 11: 33
      Quote: north 2
      And what's more, the article's last photo shows a Project 68 bis cruiser, the lead ship of the Sverdlov-class series, if the article is specifically talking about Project 66 cruisers.

      Because the article is currently discussing the post-war shipbuilding program and the ten-year plan, in which 30 of the 34 planned cruise missiles were to be light.
    3. 0
      30 July 2026 11: 28
      Something else surprises me. The author's article states that Project 66 was the last large ship with artillery armament built in the world.
      "Thus, Project 66 became the last project of a large ship designed to destroy the enemy in an artillery battle, developed in the USSR and, most likely, in the world."
      What about the 68 Bis? Especially since that project evokes memories of my youth. As a cadet in the mid-80s, I completed my internship on the Shura Nevsky, based in Severomorsk.
  3. +7
    23 July 2026 04: 55
    The same mental chaos and gigantomania as before the war. The leaders still haven't gotten any brains.
    1. +3
      23 July 2026 08: 50
      Quote: Jura 27
      The same mental chaos and gigantomania as before the war. The leaders still haven't gotten any brains.


      So,
      We are limited by our production base, and therefore we are forced to choose what to build; sailors have always been distinguished by their ignorance and unwillingness to take into account the capabilities of industry; they have never wanted to come down from the sea to land.

      (c) It's a known fact at a known meeting. Incidentally, he recommended there to Kuznetsov that they build more destroyers because, quote, "you'll train the crews on them, which is important. Don't argue, you can't accept German destroyers right now."
      1. +4
        23 July 2026 10: 36
        The navy lapped up what industry provided. As for the navy, we didn't have a military-industrial complex, but an industrial-military one! That's how it was always in the USSR. Let's recall two cruisers with similar functionality: the Atlant, also known as the Slava, and the Kirov. Why the hell were there TWO projects that differed only in their main caliber, and yet they even managed to stuff "boat-mounted" Granit missiles onto the Kirov?! Unified vertical launch systems? No, no... there'd be so much approval involved!
        P.S. "Kirov", 4 buildings were built. No two are alike!!!!
        P.S. In 1990, we had a whole zoo of anti-ship missiles, all sorts of them...
        1. +1
          23 July 2026 11: 14
          P.S. "Kirov", 4 buildings were built. No two are alike!!!!
          P.S. In 1990, we had a whole zoo of anti-ship missiles, all sorts of them...

          That's how it is and still is: the rejection of "our own" - regardless of the performance characteristics of the equipment they proposed, and at that time financial flows were the main driver of decision-making - that's how it should be considered, apparently
        2. +3
          24 July 2026 15: 30
          Quote: Not the fighter
          Why the hell were there TWO projects that differed only in their main caliber, and yet they managed to cram "boat" Granits onto the "Kirov"!!!

          Because the navy wanted a cheap missile cruiser. The nuclear-powered 1144s weren't up to the job.
          According to the initial specifications, the 1164 was actually "1134B with anti-ship missiles"—a cheap, mass-produced missile cruiser, a "return to the roots" (the original 1134 was, in fact, an anti-ship cruiser). But then came the Navy's much-loved minor improvements, the displacement increased by a third... and the result was a new design.
          Thus, the dimensions of the missiles again directly "crawled out" through the ship. “Armed men” did not understand this at all: “Just think, they added“ just something ”(!) Less than a meter of length and less than a ton (!) Of weight” (meaning a new rocket). Looking ahead, we note that these “only something” cost the ship an extra 13 m of length, 2,3 m of width and 2700 of displacement.
          © Kuzin.
          Quote: Not the fighter
          Unified vertical launch systems? No, no... there's so much to coordinate!

          Everything will have to be redone there. Because supersonic long-range anti-ship missiles don't fit into the vertical-warfare zone. And the Navy wants anti-ship missiles with a range of over 1000 km, reasonably wary of approaching a potential enemy's strike group.
          Quote: Not the fighter
          P.S. "Kirov", 4 buildings were built. No two are alike!!!!

          T - Tradition.
          Remember the trio of EBR-KR Peresvet-type submarines - even their armor was different. smile Or how the Black Sea Fleet commander, upon visiting the Yevstafiev-class submarines under construction, was surprised to discover that the internal layout of the two submarines differed from each other and from their prototype, the Potemkin. And the Yevstafiev-class main battery turrets differed from the main battery turrets of the Andreichi-class submarines, even though they were supposed to be manufactured using the same designs.
          1. 0
            27 July 2026 22: 03
            The "1134B with anti-ship missiles" is a cheap, mass-produced missile cruiser, a "return to the roots" (the original 1134 was precisely an anti-ship cruiser). But then came the much-loved Navy. minor improvements, the displacement increased by a third

            But for some reason, a different propulsion plant, a different radar, different armament, different everything—it all turned out to be a complete mess again. If there had been a desire to build the "1134B/K" ("Corrected, Anti-Ship"), I think we could have ditched the anti-tank missiles, the RBU-1000, the Rastrubov missiles, and the rather awkward splayed frame of the "Storm" in favor of a 6x2 P-500 and S-300F launcher like the "Azov."
            1. +1
              28 July 2026 10: 44
              The desire was there. But the design bureau dangled a pretty carrot in front of the fleet: 12 Bazalt launchers instead of 8. And so it went... even the Platina was somehow shoved in, even though the carrier of the DD PKD and DD SAM systems didn't need it at all.
      2. +5
        24 July 2026 11: 39
        Quote: deddem
        Sailors have always been distinguished by their ignorance and unwillingness to take into account the possibilities of industry; they never wanted to come down from the sea to land.

        Probably because it's the sailors who will have to die on the ships the industry wants to build, if necessary. Because these ships are incapable of anything else in wartime. Destroyers with non-universal main guns and cruisers with non-automatic anti-aircraft guns and manually-guided small-caliber anti-aircraft guns are even worse than "preparing for the last war."
      3. 0
        27 July 2026 21: 51
        ...first, waste the crews, especially highly skilled personnel, in a land-based meat grinder, then frantically train new personnel, but there's nothing to train them with. The traditional domestic disconnect, not between sailors, but between staff and the lower echelons, and between industry and everyone else, I think.
  4. + 14
    23 July 2026 06: 12
    Wow, what an interesting topic! The author never ceases to amaze!
    1. + 10
      23 July 2026 08: 36
      I'm glad you find this interesting :)
  5. +8
    23 July 2026 06: 55
    Thank you, Andrew!
    You're doing great.
    I remember I recently wrote about tanks that instead of creating what was needed, our designers and, especially, production workers preferred to build what we knew how, like a drunk who looks for his wallet not where he dropped it, but where the flashlight shines.
    In naval construction, the situation is far more tragic. The totalitarian nature of government elevated a certain class of leaders who excelled less in naval construction than in pleasing the Supreme Commander and evading responsibility for the failure of their assigned task. Therefore, the modest results the navy achieved during the war are unsurprising, as are the shipbuilders, who were willing to pass off their unfinished construction project, along with the responsibility for its failure, as a scapegoat.
    In fact, through great labor and thousands of broken lives, a world-class shipyard was built near Arkhangelsk, and the shipbuilding city of Molotovsk grew. Theoretically, it should have been occupied with some useful activity.
    But our admirals and industrialists couldn't offer anything other than another budget appropriation. The General Staff, too, couldn't clearly formulate the fleet's mission in the upcoming war in the Far East. As a result, the proverbial opposite happened: you don't tell us where to go, but we'll tell you what we're going to do (and it's up to you to agree). And so the tail wagged the dog.
    1. +9
      23 July 2026 08: 35
      Good morning Victor!
      We're trying:)))))
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      Therefore, it is not surprising that the fleet achieved modest results during the war.

      That's not entirely true, though. The fleet found itself in an impossible situation in the Baltic—in Leningrad under siege, there wasn't much to fight for. The Black Sea Fleet in WWII—yes, it was an extremely sad spectacle. But then again, it was growing pains. A navy is a complex thing, not something you build haphazardly, and unfortunately, like tanks, we have a lot of ships, but no one has really learned how to fight with them. Well, the Northern Fleet did do what it could with such forces.
      1. +4
        23 July 2026 15: 13
        A navy is a complex thing, not something you build haphazardly, and unfortunately, we're just like tanks—we have a lot of ships, but no one's really trained to fight with them. Well, the Northern Fleet did do what it could with such forces.


        After the Civil War, the RSFSR (USSR) had neither a full-fledged navy nor production of aircraft or armored vehicles.
        All of this had to be revived or created from scratch.
        Neither the North nor the Far East had what they were able to create by 1941.
        Even the Norwegians bravely sent the battleship Heimdal into Soviet waters to protect their poachers from Soviet border guards.
        The Japanese acted even more aggressively in the Far East.
        So the Soviet government had to choose where to spend money.
        Only "the caftan was very holey" and there was very little money.
        And the domestic industry was able to produce tanks on a mass scale, although not without the help of foreign models.
        With warships it was more complicated and difficult.
        They themselves are much more complex than a single tank or armored vehicle.

        The main thing was the shortage of personnel.
        And there was no way to defeat him quickly.
        1. +5
          23 July 2026 15: 18
          Quote: hohol95
          The main thing was the shortage of personnel.

          That's true. After the Civil War, we barely had a navy, then we slowly began rebuilding it, and in the pre-war years—bam—a ton of destroyers, submarines, small ships, and even cruisers arrived. But where are we going to find the people to man all this, from ship commanders to sailors? You can build ships, but the people capable of operating them effectively...
          And command. We had people who served as junior officers for a year or less, then a year older, then a year older, a ship's commander, and then they were promoted... The Tsarist census, no matter how you look at it, had some merit—but when and how were our sailors supposed to earn their census?
          1. +2
            23 July 2026 15: 37
            It seems that even during the tsarist reign there were times when there were sailors, but no ships.
            Or Peter the Great built masses of ships, and then most of them simply rotted or were used as firewood.
            Before the "Baltic Tigers" joined the Soviet Baltic Fleet, it was completely locked in a "puddle".
            And then he received a sharp increase in his area of ​​responsibility.
            In "alternative dreams," you could send half the Baltic Fleet to Murmansk, but in reality, the infrastructure wouldn't be able to handle such a number of warships and their crews.
            On the Black Sea, there was what there was.
            The enemy dealt with it thanks to its Air Force and victories on the ground.
            And the sloppy attitude towards their duties of some Black Sea Fleet commanders.
            But what happened, happened...
      2. +3
        24 July 2026 11: 57
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The Black Sea Fleet in WWII is, yes, an extremely sad sight.

        The Black Sea Fleet's main problem during WWII was the lack of shipbuilding and ship repair. The entire theater of operations had only one 10-kilometer floating dock, which was used in halves to avoid losing it. This forced you to take care of the ships, especially after the catastrophic repairs of the KyrKav and Molotov.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Well, the SF did do something that it could with such forces.

        And with such basing conditions and rear areas. If I remember correctly, by the start of the war, the Northern Fleet had managed to bring the propulsion plants on half of its new destroyers to a state requiring repairs—because the ships at base couldn't even get power from shore.
        1. +3
          24 July 2026 12: 20
          Quote: Alexey RA
          And with such basing conditions and rear.

          Indeed. The fleet did little objectively, but given the conditions it found itself in, it did a lot.
        2. +2
          24 July 2026 15: 46
          T - tradition
          The problem of power and steam for ships from shore to the Northern Fleet is fundamentally unsolvable. The only exception is the Kuzya, which was immediately powered from shore because the admirals clearly understood there would never be another such ship. That's why the Kuzya has survived to this day. The Kirov was running boilers and freezing at its home pier in 1992. The orderly in the forecastle wore a greatcoat. On the destroyers, people practically covered themselves with mattresses.
          1. +2
            24 July 2026 18: 01
            Quote: Not the fighter
            The problem of power supply and steam for ships from the shore to the Northern Fleet is fundamentally unsolvable.

            Oh yes... the misadventures of submarines with liquid metal cooled reactors immediately come to mind - How to get the power plant resource just by logging into the database.
            Quote: Not the fighter
            The only exception was the Kuzya, which was immediately powered from the shore, as the admirals had a clear understanding that there would not be a second such ship.

            If I remember correctly, the Kuznetsov was immediately based at SRZ-35 upon its arrival in the Northern Fleet. Well, to be precise. smile
            1. 0
              24 July 2026 19: 41
              No. First, Kuzya stood at his own floating dock, and only then...
      3. Eug
        0
        27 July 2026 11: 26
        What kind of training was needed to anticipate the disastrous results of the raids on enemy shores in 1941 and 1943? Both times, they went with a desire to distinguish themselves, and both times... this is not about the command, not about the sailors who died or survived.
      4. 0
        27 July 2026 22: 08
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The Black Sea Fleet in WWII

        If only there had been at least one combat training aircraft from the unfinished building... And at least five 122s plus another ten MO-4s (but with diesel engines. However, this is from the wildest dreams of the Vologda wilds; there was no one and nothing to make a normal 1200 hp marine diesel back then; the same Dagdizel couldn't have duplicated the Leningrad).
    2. +1
      23 July 2026 11: 15
      brought to the top a certain class of leaders who were not so successful in the matter of building a fleet as in the ability to please the Supreme Commander and avoid responsibility for the failure of the task entrusted to them.

      the bureaucracy was already strong back then
      1. +2
        23 July 2026 17: 53
        Quote: Dedok

        the bureaucracy was already strong back then

        Today's will be stronger. hi
    3. +2
      23 July 2026 23: 49
      Well, when totalitarianism ended, how our navy flourished! It became great and powerful...
  6. +4
    23 July 2026 08: 35
    All this suggests that, even with the views of our naval warfare theorists, who still considered artillery ships to be the backbone of the fleet, Soviet cruisers should have been prepared:

    1. To counter the heavy cruisers of the USA and England:

    2. Support your battleships by firing at enemy battleships.


    A battleship for every admiral...
    Crazy spending on pointless weapons. All these cruisers were never properly armed with anti-aircraft artillery, aircraft carriers were abandoned, and anti-aircraft missile systems were only just being conceived. According to WWII statistics, the majority of warship losses were due to air attacks.
    The NATO fleet would not even allow our battleships and cruisers to come within artillery range...destroying them with their aircraft from aircraft carriers.
    1. +6
      23 July 2026 09: 19
      This question is a clash of two true statements, which at the same time exclude each other:
      - Armadas of aircraft from the American force are capable of sweeping away any surface formations of ships from the sea surface;
      - Aircraft carriers are nothing more than floating airfields, extremely vulnerable to naval warfare, and in the future, to missile weapons, the loss of which turns a formation into a collection of ships incapable of independent action and doomed to be destroyed if air cover is lost.
      But to properly assess the role of aircraft carriers in modern warfare, they must first be available. And they must be accompanied by carrier-based aircraft, specially trained pilots, specialized weapons for carrier-based aircraft, and bases equipped to protect, repair, and maintain these extremely expensive combat units.
      Thus, given the fact that the USSR's Far Eastern policy in the late Stalinist period inevitably led to confrontation with the United States, it was necessary to determine the role of our fleet in this conflict.
      Clearly, the USSR cannot counter the United States in the vast Pacific Ocean. Therefore, the navy's role is seen as conducting operations in the closed waters of the Western Pacific coast, building on previous experience—conducting its own amphibious operations and preventing the enemy from carrying them out. Once air superiority over these seas is achieved (an extremely difficult prospect), offensive operations against Japan can be launched.
      Operations against enemy communications are only possible with submarines. However, the lessons of the Battle of the Atlantic do not inspire optimism.
      In the current situation it was appropriate to:
      - Consider the issue of buying back captured ships from the Allies for their subsequent modernization in the interests of the Pacific theater of operations;
      - Continue the construction of light forces and landing ships to support operations in closed seas;
      - Urgently develop a network of bases and airfields for basic aviation in the theater of operations.
      As can be seen from the list, no heavy artillery ships or aircraft carriers are visible in such a program.
      Nevertheless, it would be rational to utilize the backlog of unfinished Project 23 battleships (built by the Soviet Union and Soviet Russia, using designs from Soviet Ukraine) to build two combat-training aircraft carriers similar to Shinano, which would be useful for training naval pilots and practicing carrier-based aviation. Given their significant size, the primary universal carrier-based aircraft could initially be variants of the Tu-2, in the dive bomber/torpedo version, and a high-speed variant, a heavy fighter.
      So let's see where they try to adapt the Project 66 cruiser in real history.
      1. +1
        25 July 2026 01: 26
        Quote: Victor Leningradets
        Thus, given the fact that the USSR's Far Eastern policy in the late Stalinist period inevitably led to confrontation with the United States, it was necessary to determine the role of our fleet in this conflict.

        A navy takes a long time to build. If we hadn't acquired nuclear weapons in time, we wouldn't have had much of a chance in a war with the US in the Far East. All logistics are based on a single double-track Trans-Siberian Railway, which will be bombed regularly and relentlessly. And a backup railway is impossible to build quickly due to the terrain and climate. That's why they built the Northern Latitudinal Passage (or whatever it was called back then) so hard, to achieve at least some transport connectivity and ensure the conduct of the inevitable (before nuclear weapons) war. And what role could the navy have played there... only coastal defense. We didn't have a navy in the Pacific, and building one quickly wouldn't be possible. And Vladivostok is a real challenge for basing.
        But Stalin made a clever move in the Far East. After Chiang Kai-shek chose the United States as an ally, making our position in the Far East completely bleak, Stalin handed over all the Kwantung Army's field armaments to Comrade Mao, who quickly seized power. And with one such feint, the USSR gained a very serious ally in the Far East, one that was certainly weak economically and militarily, but possessed enormous potential geographically and demographically. Together with the USSR's acquisition of nuclear weapons, this ensured the balance of power in the region, alleviated the urgency of an inevitable and imminent war, and also provided considerable geographic advantages and freedom of maneuver for air forces. And Port Arthur was then ours again and could potentially accommodate our ships so as not to freeze in Vladivostok. But only in the future, since the navy had yet to be built.
        What else ?
        Stalin began construction of an underwater tunnel to Sakhalin. Having a rail and road connection to this remarkable island would make it possible to significantly fortify it and reliably supply our air bases and, potentially, naval bases in ice-free waters... and to get very close to Hokkaido, which would make it possible to conduct an amphibious operation there in the event of war. For the Americans would have to be driven out of Japan anyway.
        Before Stalin's death, we had already launched the magnificent Tu-16 and put it into mass production. With nuclear weapons, the question of war in the Far East was simplified, and Comrade Mao ensured its wide maneuverability at Chinese airfields.
        As for aircraft carriers, Kuznetsov was certainly fascinated and inspired by their capabilities demonstrated in the Pacific War, but he only very weakly considered the "curse of geography" in his desires. Where to base such ships? This is still a pressing and painful question. We are a northern country with freezing naval bases. The Black Sea is a closed waterway, and without resolving the strait issue, stationing them there won't be possible. So, ordering 12 aircraft carriers is certainly possible. smile So what next? Kill them in their bases? Freeze them at their piers? The US is a southern, warm country, it's easier for them. We could try again in Kwantung, in the Far East (Arthur is unlikely to work), but that's leased territory and the Chinese wouldn't be thrilled. In Korea, of course, it's possible, but then we'd have to liberate the southern part from the Americans. See what a pile of problems. And the experience already acquired (negative) inexorably proves - "A fleet takes a LONG time to build" and building ships alone is not enough, you need SAILORS and naval commanders. And since it takes "a long time," it needs to be built gradually, from simple to complex - first light cruisers in large series, so that the industry gets the hang of it, and the sailors have something to sail on and gain experience. Then came battlecruisers (I deliberately skipped the heavy ones, as they were a waste of time and money even at that point) as an experience in building truly large ships with powerful propulsion systems (280,000 hp on four shafts is a serious undertaking), with the development of high-quality torpedo protection, unsinkability systems, fire extinguishing systems, and everything else. Such ships had never been built in Russia before, although they tried. After all, we were seriously aiming for heavy aircraft carriers. They were seriously aiming for them, and they were seriously designing them. However, such crucial components as a four-shaft propulsion system, armor, torpedo protection, and all the other ship systems, it would have been preferable to first develop on a more classic ship – a battlecruiser. But the main feature of this light cruiser was not even its size and speed (35 knots), but its guns - 60-caliber 12" with record-breaking characteristics. Kuznetsov, seeing this, was surprised by the words "What range of missions does this ship have?", and the developers answered him with the words of Stalin ... but the main thing they did not say or did not know (probably it was classified) is that this light cruiser would fire not only conventional shells, but also nuclear ones - on Stalin's orders, such shells were then being developed by Kurchatov's group, and 12" was the minimum in which a nuclear weapon could fit at that time.
        What did this give?
        The guns had a maximum range of 60 km, and accordingly, the effective firing range was about 40 km. For a time when anti-ship missiles had not yet been invented, much less to have them on a ship, the ability to fire nuclear shells at the range of the first anti-ship missiles... is worth a lot. Special accuracy is not needed here, there would be target designation. And as part of a carrier-carrying group, such a light cruiser would be worth much more than a classic light cruiser. That is why Comrade Stalin attached such exceptional importance to the development of such a cruiser, that he personally monitored the design process, delved into it and even made recommendations and changes. So the history of the light cruiser design is much more understandable and logical than the project of the strange Project 66, which, judging by the power of its propulsion plant, was also conceived as a three-shaft one (210,000 hp is exactly 3 x 70,000 hp). And the main gun = 220 mm. It's like "neither a candle for God nor a poker for the devil," and for such a large VI and cost, it's too small. The US had a similar VI "Alaska," but it had 9 x 12" guns, like our LKR, only the guns were shorter.
        So, I absolutely do not understand and do not accept Project 66. It is an expensive, complex, and absurd project. It would have been better to use its propulsion plant as the basis for a light AV VI project with a capacity of 40,000-45,000 tons.

        The attack aircraft they designed for the future AV were quite interesting—with a coaxial propeller, an engine layout similar to the Airacobra, fairly large, and powerfully powered. But they never materialized. Khrushchev canceled all the programs.
        Quote: Victor Leningradets
        So let's see where they try to adapt the Project 66 cruiser in real history.

        He didn't live to see the real thing. Apparently because he was never built, but they started designing rocket ships.
        1. 0
          25 July 2026 05: 59
          Dear readers, do I need to comment on a fantasy about nuclear missiles?
          1. +2
            25 July 2026 07: 38
            If possible, briefly, Andrey. And also about ultra-long-range turbojet projectiles.
            1. +3
              25 July 2026 09: 55
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              If possible, briefly, Andrey.

              In short, nuclear shells have nothing to do with the 12-inch caliber guns on the Project 82 heavy cruisers. Stalin's interest in cruisers with such artillery arose even before the war, when no one was even talking about nuclear weapons. The sailors didn't want the Project 69 cruiser, Kuznetsov tried to get rid of it, and it was precisely thanks to Stalin that it was retained in the pre-war shipbuilding program.
              Then, in January 1947, when Stalin was pushing for 305mm on 82, 12-inch nuclear shells were still a thing of the past; we didn't even have a project for the very first atomic bomb, let alone a shell. Accordingly, the story about
              Quote: bayard
              By order of Stalin, such shells were then being developed by Kurchatov's group

              They're pure science fiction—in those years, Kurchatov wasn't working on projectiles, but on the very first atomic bomb. And the design of those atomic bombs, to put it mildly, was completely unsuitable for a projectile.
              Furthermore, the Americans hadn't yet developed their 280mm atomic cannon (they hadn't even started making them), so it was impossible to reason "by analogy." And when we ourselves began making atomic shells, we couldn't squeeze them into anything smaller than a 406mm (Capacitor) shell, but that was already the 50s. Therefore, predicting that an atomic shell would absolutely require a 12-inch caliber in early 1947 was also impossible.
            2. 0
              25 July 2026 09: 55
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              If possible, briefly, Andrey.

              In short, nuclear shells have nothing to do with the 12-inch caliber guns on the Project 82 heavy cruisers. Stalin's interest in cruisers with such artillery arose even before the war, when no one was even talking about nuclear weapons. The sailors didn't want the Project 69 cruiser, Kuznetsov tried to get rid of it, and it was precisely thanks to Stalin that it was retained in the pre-war shipbuilding program.
              Then, in January 1947, when Stalin was pushing for 305mm on 82, 12-inch nuclear shells were still a thing of the past; we didn't even have a project for the very first atomic bomb, let alone a shell. Accordingly, the story about
              Quote: bayard
              By order of Stalin, such shells were then being developed by Kurchatov's group

              They're pure science fiction—in those years, Kurchatov wasn't working on projectiles, but on the very first atomic bomb. And the design of those atomic bombs, to put it mildly, was completely unsuitable for a projectile.
              Furthermore, the Americans hadn't yet developed their 280mm atomic cannon (they hadn't even started making them), so it was impossible to reason "by analogy." And when we ourselves began making atomic shells, we couldn't squeeze them into anything smaller than a 406mm (Capacitor) shell, but that was already the 50s. Therefore, predicting that an atomic shell would absolutely require a 12-inch caliber in early 1947 was also impossible.
              1. -4
                25 July 2026 14: 47
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                When Stalin was pushing through 305mm at 82, 12-inch nuclear shells were still a thing of the past

                And why did he push through it? And especially in the post-war period? Or was it just "stupidity" again, like in the Kuropatkin case?
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                When we started making atomic shells, we couldn’t fit it into less than a 406mm (Condenser), but that was already the 50s.

                What caliber of shell was the original request? The fact that they didn't fulfill it doesn't mean the task wasn't set. The request was specifically for a 12" shell, which immediately raises the question: why was that specific caliber chosen? Where else had we used that caliber besides the navy? It was only after it became clear that it wouldn't fit into that caliber that the "Kondensator" story began. This was long-term planning. While the ship was being designed, built, and commissioned, Stalin intended the shell to be ready. The "Kondensator" story began with an order for a 12" shell.
                The US Navy also made such (nuclear) shells, including for the Iowa-class battleships.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                It was also impossible to predict that a 12-inch caliber would be required for an atomic projectile at the beginning of 1947.

                This wasn't a prediction, but long-term planning. And at that stage, no one was planning to tell the sailors that they would be receiving nuclear missiles.
                1. +2
                  25 July 2026 15: 05
                  Quote: bayard
                  It was forward planning.

                  You can, of course, prove your point by referring to relevant historical documents or literature. laughing
                  1. -3
                    25 July 2026 17: 07
                    Yes As soon as you prove that AWACS is an SAR aircraft and this is its main function.
                    1. +3
                      25 July 2026 17: 51
                      Well then, all that remains for me to state is that
                      Quote: bayard
                      And the task was exactly for 12"

                      Quote: bayard
                      And only after it became clear that it wouldn't fit into such a caliber, the story with the "Capacitor" began.

                      Quote: bayard
                      The history of the "Condenser" began with an order for a 12" shell.

                      Quote: bayard
                      By order of Stalin, such shells were then being developed by Kurchatov's group

                      A lie from the first to the last word.
                      We first approached the topic of an atomic artillery shell only in 1952. The basis for this research was a report from the General Staff of the USSR Armed Forces, "On the Development of Atomic Weapons in the United States for the Solution of Operational-Tactical Problems," submitted on April 15, 1952, to I.V. Stalin. The report stated that, according to our source, the United States had developed prototypes of "tactical" atomic bombs and shells, including a 280-mm shell. It was this report that became the trigger for work on our atomic shells, but how?
                      The materials were transferred to KB-11 for processing. There, after some thought, they came to the conclusion that they could make an atomic projectile, so two special departments were formed: Department 4 in May, and Sector 11 in July 1953.
                      That's the whole story. Until 1953, no one in the USSR was working on nuclear weapons. Moreover, it was completely impossible to even consider them, as even planning the development of tactical nuclear weapons required at least the theoretical foundations for miniaturizing atomic charges. These foundations emerged only during the development of the RDS-2, which was not completed until 1951.
                      Therefore, there was no work or plans for atomic shells in 1947, and there could not have been. Period.
                      Quote: bayard
                      As soon as you prove that AWACS is an RTR aircraft

                      As soon as you substantiate your fantasies about Kuropatkin with reference to sources laughing
                      1. -3
                        25 July 2026 20: 53
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        At least theoretical prerequisites for miniaturizing atomic charges were needed. These only emerged during the development of the RDS-2, which was completed only in 1951.

                        And when did it start?
                        To pluck out quotes that Nibelmes doesn't understand, that's all Kolobov has to offer.
                        Stop trying to wriggle out of it, Kolobov. Reread your text in the first part, what you've done there. About 12 aircraft carriers in 10 years being too little, and about Kuznetsov not understanding the importance of aircraft carriers. You've even delved into the history of nuclear weapons.
                        I only occasionally check your opuses a few days after they're published. I thought there was actually something coming out of the project, but no, it's all just a bunch of fluff again. Are you deliberately dragging it out just to make money? This is a topic for one article, and he didn't even finish the preface of the entire article.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        There was no work or plans for atomic bombs in 1947, and there could not have been. Period.

                        I came up with the idea about 1947 myself, I put the period myself. laughing
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        As soon as you substantiate your fantasies about Kuropatkin with reference to sources

                        What a pain, even the Kuropatkin series on VO has it all. You just need to understand it by reading. As someone with no education or military experience, you can't even comprehend the implications of 1000+ km marches on foot for infantry, like a baby. Or the need to reinforce units of new recruits with units of experienced fighters to transfer experience and speed up combat training and coordination. For you, these terms are pure gibberish, not to mention the underlying concepts. Any soldier who served in the military would immediately understand what I'm talking about. For you, it seems fundamentally incomprehensible. So much so that you point to "Kuropatkin's incompetence" because he supposedly reinforced newly arrived units of new recruits with units of experienced fighters. Once you've at least completed the KMB, we can return to this topic.
                        And I'm waiting for AWACS, don't try to get out of it, Kolobov!
                      2. +1
                        25 July 2026 21: 08
                        .
                        Quote: bayard
                        What a pain, even on VO in the series about Kuropatkin there is everything about this.

                        Well, there you go. You're failing miserably with sources. The best you can do is cite a publication on VO. Oh, and of course, you must have read it somewhere before...
                        So you have no right to demand anything from me. No AWACS or anything like that. You don't stand behind your words, so why would you demand anything from me?
                        As for history... I don't think I'll ever get tired of watching epic nuclear flames erupt in your rear end every time you're confronted with the facts.
                        Don't get involved in history; it's not your thing. Better yet, tell stories about how you saved Gazprom from inflation; at least that's funny.
                      3. -2
                        26 July 2026 01: 29
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You can't find any sources, it's enough to make you cry.

                        Well, how could it not be? Even without leaving the site, a quick glance at it is enough to find links and quotes. If you strip away some of the author's excesses and just use Kuropatkin's own quotes, you'll get what I, an ignoramus, was telling you. But you're too lazy and conceited to be convinced of your own stupidity and stubbornness. And you're not up to it, as follows from that very debate, from foot wraps, boots, and marches to the time required to train a recruit into a battle-ready soldier. It's impossible not to understand this, which means it's the usual trollish meanness.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You have no right to demand anything from me. No AWACS.

                        Kolobov is right. laughing Because this was epic, illiterate heresy and stubborn denial. Kolobov, where is the promised proof of your nonsense that AWACS is an RTR aircraft? laughing fool You promised you'd make it "easy." So do it.
                        You are just a graduate of an "accounting technical school", as Mikhail Khazin calls people like you, i.e. a person without a profession, which is why you are regularly out of work.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Don't get involved in history, it's not your business.

                        How could one not get involved when an unemployed "economist" wrote in an article discussed on this very forum that Admiral Kuznetsov was so incompetent and underestimated aircraft carriers that he ordered "only" 12 of them laughing to be built in 10 years. And he argued with all his might that this was not enough.
                        Do you seriously think so?
                        Or did you write under the influence of psychoactive drugs?
                        When the country after two wars was unable to build anything.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Gazprom saved from inflation

                        Not Gazprom, but the oil industry. Not me, but my program and Romanov's group. And Gazprom took advantage of it a little later, not for "salvation," but for efficiency. You've got it all mixed up again.
                        So what's Kolobov saying about 12 aircraft carriers and Kuznetsov's "stupidity" in not ordering more? Are we going to look into it? bully
                      4. +1
                        26 July 2026 07: 58
                        Quote: bayard
                        Well, how can it not work, if even without leaving the site it is enough to take a look, there you have links and quotes

                        Open https://topwar.ru/269494-antigeroi-russko-japonskoj-vojny-istinnye-i-mnimye-a-kuropatkin-ego-rol-v-porazhenijah-russkoj-armii-sudba-generala.html
                        And we see - there are no links, but there are quotes, yes
                        But the initial period of the struggle, given the superiority of the Japanese forces and their greater combat readiness, must be generally defensive in nature. Our available forces must, whenever possible, avoid decisive clashes in order to avoid isolated defeats before concentrating sufficient forces to defeat the Japanese.

                        And it’s not that this is not exactly a quote, because the correct one would be
                        But the initial period of the struggle, given the superiority of the Japanese forces and their greater combat readiness, must be generally defensive in nature. Our available forces must, whenever possible, avoid decisive clashes in order to avoid isolated defeats before concentrating sufficient forces to defeat the Japanese.

                        The thing is, Ryzhov is only talking about Kuropatkin's PLANS here. I was saying that Kuropatkin failed miserably in his plans. You objected, but the problem is, the article contains nothing to support your objections.
                        So once again, "I congratulate you for lying" (c), you cannot even find confirmation of your pro-Kuropatkin fantasies at the level of Internet publications.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Not Gazprom, but the oil industry. Not me, but my program and Romanov's group.

                        Not at cards, but at the casino, not a thousand, but a million, not won, but lost...
                        Quote: bayard
                        So what's Kolobov saying about 12 aircraft carriers and Kuznetsov's "stupidity" in not ordering more? Are we going to look into it?

                        The analysis here is very simple. You, being incapable of a substantive objection, are now trying to avoid an uncomfortable topic and attempting to appropriate theses from my article that aren't there.
                        That's the whole analysis:)))))))
                      5. +1
                        26 July 2026 07: 58
                        Quote: bayard
                        Well, how can it not work, if even without leaving the site it is enough to take a look, there you have links and quotes

                        Open https://topwar.ru/269494-antigeroi-russko-japonskoj-vojny-istinnye-i-mnimye-a-kuropatkin-ego-rol-v-porazhenijah-russkoj-armii-sudba-generala.html
                        And we see - there are no links, but there are quotes, yes
                        But the initial period of the struggle, given the superiority of the Japanese forces and their greater combat readiness, must be generally defensive in nature. Our available forces must, whenever possible, avoid decisive clashes in order to avoid isolated defeats before concentrating sufficient forces to defeat the Japanese.

                        And it’s not that this is not exactly a quote, because the correct one would be
                        But the initial period of the struggle, given the superiority of the Japanese forces and their greater combat readiness, must be generally defensive in nature. Our available forces must, whenever possible, avoid decisive clashes in order to avoid isolated defeats before concentrating sufficient forces to defeat the Japanese.

                        The thing is, Ryzhov is only talking about Kuropatkin's PLANS here. I was saying that Kuropatkin failed miserably in his plans. You objected, but the problem is, the article contains nothing to support your objections.
                        So once again, "I congratulate you for lying" (c), you cannot even find confirmation of your pro-Kuropatkin fantasies at the level of Internet publications.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Not Gazprom, but the oil industry. Not me, but my program and Romanov's group.

                        Not at cards, but at the casino, not a thousand, but a million, not won, but lost...
                        Quote: bayard
                        So what's Kolobov saying about 12 aircraft carriers and Kuznetsov's "stupidity" in not ordering more? Are we going to look into it?

                        The analysis here is very simple. You, unable to offer a substantive rebuttal, are now trying to avoid the topic by jumping to another. And since you're unable to substantively counter what I've written, you're trying to appropriate points from my article that aren't there. Many have done this before you—when there's nothing substantive to counter, but you really want to...
                        The analysis is complete:)))))))
                      6. -3
                        26 July 2026 11: 07
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The thing is, Ryzhov is only talking about Kuropatkin's PLANS here. I was saying that Kuropatkin failed miserably in his plans.

                        Your words, as someone without a profession (your phrase in relation to "professional economists"), without even the experience of military service and simply being unemployed, are worth nothing. For in the basics of army life, service, not to mention war, you are swimming... in your own stupidity and stubbornness.
                        Kuropatki waged the war entirely according to his own plan, avoiding decisive battles (those that did occur typically lasted no more than a day, followed by a retreat to new positions). He drew the Japanese deeper into Manchuria, stretching their lines of communication, harassing them with small skirmishes, and stalling for time. Meanwhile, he received arriving reinforcements after grueling foot marches of over 1000 km, recuperated, treated them, and organized an entire network of shoe repair shops, since the marching columns sometimes arrived in bast shoes and footcloths, their boots completely torn to shreds during the march. Then began training, combat coordination, and the transfer of experience from veterans to new recruits. Throughout this period, the arriving units were practically unprepared for combat, and efforts were made to avoid committing them to battle.
                        He was not given any cadre units from the European part. So he formed his army on the spot, and already during the war.
                        He consciously accepted the blame for the lost war, in agreement with other General Staff generals and members of the commission that reviewed the war's results. The commission's findings were classified. Those responsible were assigned from among the innocent, so as not to place the entire responsibility for the preparations for war and the war on the Tsar. The First "Russian" Revolution was raging across the country; in fact, the Empire almost descended into civil war. Therefore, a lightning rod for deflecting blame from the Tsar was needed; otherwise, the country would have simply exploded, the Romanovs would have been deposed back then, and it's scary to even imagine the consequences. However, we saw all of this in 1917, but it could have happened earlier. Therefore, the official blame was placed on Kuropatkin and Rozhdestvensky (for Tsushima). All of this is well known both in professional circles and in the historiography of that war, revolution, and historical period. You are unable to see the whole picture of events due to a lack of education, life experience, and mental predisposition. But as always, you refuse to acknowledge the stupidity and error of your judgments.
                        Apparently, this is why you don't get along with your colleagues and management at work. People like that are neither liked nor appreciated.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Not at cards, but at the casino, not a thousand, but a million, not won, but lost...

                        Yes, Kolobov, you've screwed up again, made up stories and lied. But you really shouldn't be getting involved here, with your track record and your regular status as an unemployed "economist."
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Quote: bayard
                        So what's Kolobov saying about 12 aircraft carriers and Kuznetsov's "stupidity" in not ordering more? Are we going to look into it?

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The analysis is complete:)))))))

                        Oh, what nerves, Kolobov. laughing Are you back in your own shoes again? The analysis isn't finished, especially since this is a forum for an article you concocted. So, do you really think Kuznetsov was being modest when he submitted an order for 12 aircraft carriers in 1945? bully
                        Did you need more? laughing
                        Now about your scribbles in this article.
                        I am genuinely surprised by your... bewilderment regarding the presence of battleships and other items on the list in the order, but especially regarding the presence of light cruisers with 180 mm main guns in the application. No. Are you seriously unaware that a large number of ships were stalled on the slipways and under completion at the start of the war? And that in 1945, Kuznetsov planned to receive these ships first after completion? Among them were battleships, light cruisers, and Maxim Gorky-class cruisers with 180mm main guns (a gun with decent ballistics but a very short barrel life). These guns were not even wanted on light cruisers, but the USSR didn't have a good 152mm naval gun. Therefore, until one was developed and ready, they decided to install 180mm guns. That's why two types of light cruisers are on order, so that all the pre-war keels can be completed, and the new ones can be built according to a proper design and with proper 152mm artillery. It's embarrassing not to know this. Have you fallen from the moon with your reasoning and opinions about "Kuznetsov's competence"?
                        And yes, some of the battleships, cruisers, and heavy cruisers laid down before the war were proposed to be completed as aircraft carriers. At least, this possibility was considered. But it was wisely rejected. Kuznetsov, when submitting the order for 12 aircraft carriers, had precisely this possibility in mind. And this was supposed to be merely a topic for future discussions.
                        It's shameful not to know this. Not to understand that the order primarily includes ships already laid down before the war is astonishing.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The analysis is complete :)

                        No, Kolobov, it's just the beginning. You haven't even finished the introduction yet. I'm afraid to even imagine what will happen next.
                        And yes, I'm waiting for proof that AWACS is an electronic warfare aircraft (its primary function). If you said "easy," then do it. Or admit your ignorance, stupidity, stubbornness, and rudeness.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The analysis is complete:)))))))

                        No, Kolobov, it's just the beginning. And I'll try to analyze you from now on during a live forum. That is, immediately after your next opus is released. You've been working towards this for a long time.
                      7. +2
                        26 July 2026 11: 25
                        So where are the links to sources on Kuropatkin?:)))))
                        Quote: bayard
                        But you shouldn't interfere here at all.

                        I'm just curious what you're making up about yourself here. Are you probably going to try to peg taxes to the dollar exchange rate and the price of oil and gas on foreign exchanges?
                      8. -2
                        26 July 2026 12: 09
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        So where are the links to sources on Kuropatkin?:)))))

                        Are you nervous again?
                        I'll provide them to you as soon as I see your "easy" proof that AWACS is an SIGINT aircraft (in its primary function). You swore you could do this easily, so don't anger your god.
                        And also, after answering the simple question you posed in this article, that Kuznetsov was incompetent and, underestimating the role of aircraft carriers, ordered "only" 12 units by 1955. If you published such nonsense in an article on the forum we're currently on, please explain yourself. I'll be very interested in watching your contortions.
                        If you've written a whole series of articles on the topic of an unbuilt cruiser and haven't even finished the introduction in the first article, I'm afraid to even imagine what else you've concocted, or are planning to concoct. It usually takes me a long time to get to your opuses, but this time I'll be attentive and try to visit the still-active forum.
                        Are you sure you haven't screwed up something even worse there?
                      9. +1
                        26 July 2026 12: 17
                        Quote: bayard
                        I will provide them to you immediately.

                        No, you won't. I've been asking you for them for a long time, and I'm not the only one. And I've received nothing. And, by the way, you did the right thing by remaining silent when I asked about your economic program.
                      10. -2
                        26 July 2026 14: 08
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        No, you can't imagine.

                        Kolobov bully Well, it's so easy to check. Let's talk about AWACS, which, in your opinion, are intended for electronic warfare and only slightly "optionally" for AWACS. You promised to make it "simple." So do it.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        about his economic program.

                        Why do you need this, Kolobov? You're completely clueless about this. Besides, I had more than one program. But that was a long time ago. After that, I started my own business. Maybe you should do something useful too?
                      11. 0
                        26 July 2026 14: 17
                        Quote: bayard
                        Well, it's so easy to check.

                        Yes. And I already checked.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Why do you need this?

                        I had no doubt that you would be afraid to present your work to the judgment of a real economist.
                      12. -1
                        26 July 2026 14: 58
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I already checked.

                        So present it.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You will be scared to be judged by a real economist.

                        Kolobov, you're not an economist. By your own admission, you're "a man without a profession," because "economist is not a profession." I checked your credentials and they're very, very average. You've already scared me with them. Have you forgotten?
                      13. +1
                        28 July 2026 17: 06
                        Quote: bayard
                        Are you seriously unaware that a large number of ships were stalled on the slipways and in the process of being completed at the start of the war? And that in 1945, Kuznetsov planned to receive these very ships first after completion? Among them were battleships, light cruisers, and Maxim Gorky-class cruisers with 180mm main guns (a gun with decent ballistics but a very short barrel life).

                        The last two Project 26-bis cruisers were laid down in 1938 and completed during the war for the Pacific Fleet. After them, no cruisers with 180mm main guns were laid down, and in 1939, Project 68 cruisers with 152mm main guns were ordered for the "Big Fleet."
                        Quote: bayard
                        These guns were not wanted on light cruisers at all, but the USSR did not have a good 152 mm naval gun.

                        So where did the 152mm B-38 gun, accepted into service in 1940, go? These were the guns that were supposed to be installed on the Project 68 cruise missiles laid down in 1939. And these are the guns that the post-war Project 68-K and 68-bis cruise missiles received.
                      14. -1
                        28 July 2026 18: 30
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        The last two Project 26-bis cruisers were laid down in 1938 and completed during the war for the Pacific Fleet.

                        I've read that the Amur Shipyard had some unfinished cruisers left at the start of the war. Perhaps Kuznetsov had them in mind when he included them in the program. In any case, not a single Project 68 had been built yet, so there was a certain risk.
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        And where did the 152 mm B-38 gun, accepted into service in 1940, go?

                        That's what we're talking about; they were waiting for her for a proper light cruiser project. In January 1945, when the war with Germany was still going on and war with Japan was looming, quick solutions and projects that industry could build were needed. The Project 26-bis was certainly capable; they were sufficient for the Baltic and the Black Sea and could fight heavy cruisers in those waters. They weren't planned for anything more – they were the first signs. Were all these cruisers really completed before or during the war? Because all the large ships that had been laid down remained on the slipways.
                        And, of course, after the war ended, there was no longer any talk of any Maxim Gorky clones. Even during the design process, they wanted to have them armed with 152mm guns. But only 180mm guns were available.
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        B-38, accepted into service in 1940.

                        So they were waiting for him. No ship with such weapons had ever been built. And Kuznetsov's application was just a rough idea—a pretext for discussion at a meeting.
                      15. +1
                        28 July 2026 19: 05
                        Quote: bayard
                        I came across that at the Amur Shipyard there were unfinished cruisers left at the beginning of the war.

                        "Kalinin" entered service on December 31, 1942.
                        Kaganovich - December 30, 1944

                        Quote: bayard
                        That's what we're talking about, it was what they were waiting for for a normal light cruiser project.

                        Why isn't Project 68 "normal"?

                        Quote: bayard
                        And, of course, after the war ended, there was no longer any talk of any Maxim Gorky clones. Even during the design process, they wanted to have them armed with 152mm guns. But only 180mm guns were available.

                        Can you decipher it?
                      16. -1
                        28 July 2026 19: 54
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Why isn't Project 68 "normal"?

                        This is an excellent cruiser. However, when the Project 26 was being designed, the USSR didn't have anywhere near a good 152mm gun. So they chose what was available—180mm—but had to limit themselves to three triple turrets. It was decided to build according to this design until a good 152mm gun was ready. So, initially, two designs were considered: the Project 26 as a first-stage light cruiser with limited endurance, and the Project 68 (a little later) as a light cruiser with four triple 152mm turrets, a cruiser with high endurance.
                        In January 1945, Kuznetsov didn't know what the industry was capable of after suffering losses in the war, so he included both types of cruisers in the list. And this list/application for the meeting served as a pretext for discussion. But the industry was in a difficult situation; it needed to bring specialists back from the front, from evacuation, and restore all industrial cooperation enterprises, which would take time. And since this was a delay, Project 26 was immediately abandoned. But the fate of the unfinished battleships and light cruisers was a difficult decision. Completing them according to the original designs was deemed irrational – they were outdated and inadequate. Completing them as aircraft carriers was considered, but that was also abandoned – the industry wasn't ready for that, there were no designs, and such ships had never been designed. So they were simply dismantled on the slipways.
                        It's a shame about the new project, the development of which was supervised by Stalin himself. They were interesting ships, and would have served for a long time. The experience gained by industry, and the groundwork for propulsion plants, hulls, mine protection, and general ship systems would have been very useful. The USSR had no problems with funding. We had a sovereign financial system and didn't borrow money; there was money for all the projects. The material base, personnel, production capacity, and the will of the leadership would have been there. The abandonment of all these projects was a political decision. Then Khrushchev dissolved the USSR government (introduced a direct party leadership) and abolished Gosplan (the previous personnel under Brezhnev never returned, none of the previous staff, I knew a former employee of that Gosplan). So not only were new ships cut up for scrap metal, artillery guns and aircraft (this happened a little later), but the entire state as a whole was turned upside down. And they were never able to fix this until the collapse of the USSR.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Can you decipher it?

                        Deciphered.
                      17. +1
                        28 July 2026 20: 03
                        Quote: bayard
                        So, initially, two projects were considered: Project 26 as a first-stage light cruiser with limited autonomy, and Project 68 (a little later) as a light cruiser with four three-gun 152 mm turrets, as a cruiser with high autonomy.

                        You have a good alternative history...

                        Quote: bayard
                        In January 1945, Kuznetsov did not know what the industry was capable of after suffering losses in the war, so he included both types of cruisers in the list.

                        The industry was unable to produce 180mm guns and turrets for them: production of turrets had been discontinued due to lack of need, and there was a backlog of guns in warehouses.
                      18. -1
                        28 July 2026 20: 32
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        You have a good alternative history...

                        The history of the cruiser's design based on the Italian project is well-known and widely covered. And why the 180mm gun was installed is also well known. They wanted 152mm guns, but at a world-class level. The gun was ordered, and then a new design was developed for it.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        There was a reserve of guns in the warehouses.

                        Well, it's unlikely that Kuznetsov included 180mm cruisers in the list because of this backlog, although who knows, given the need to build new ships as quickly as possible. These were likely replacement guns for the short-lived 180mm guns without a liner.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        tower production was stopped

                        Apparently they were disappointed with the guns and were already waiting for a new project and new guns.
                      19. +1
                        28 July 2026 21: 16
                        Quote: bayard
                        Although they wanted 152, but at the world level.

                        They didn't want to... 180mm was originally included in the specifications, but only in a 3x2 configuration...

                        Quote: bayard
                        Apparently they were disappointed with the guns and were already waiting for a new project and new guns.

                        No... They simply signed the Anglo-Soviet Naval Agreement, according to which ships with 180mm artillery could no longer be built.
                        Only 6 planned corps + "Red Caucasus".
                      20. -1
                        28 July 2026 22: 26
                        An irrelevant topic, old and long gone. It's educational for the young, but nothing more. What was interesting was "why did Kuznetsov include such a huge number of light cruisers in the order, twice the reasonable requirement?" These were two alternative positions on what industry could do.
                        - What type can you lay down right now?
                        - None. We need time to recover, people from the front and evacuation, new ones to be trained, cooperation to be restored.
                        - Okay, we'll cross out Project 26 and refine Project 68 to its most advanced form based on the experience of the Pacific War. Then we'll lay them down.
                        How many of them did they order later?
                        25 piece.
                        That's it, the question is closed. I'm not interested anymore.
                      21. +1
                        28 July 2026 23: 00
                        Quote: bayard
                        That's it, the question is closed. I'm not interested anymore.

                        Nothing is clear, but it’s very interesting. :)
                        However, as you wish... hi
                      22. +1
                        29 July 2026 11: 49
                        Quote: bayard
                        I came across that at the Amur Shipyard there were unfinished cruisers left at the beginning of the war.

                        They were completed before 1945. With deviations from the project, but they were completed.
                        Quote: bayard
                        In any case, not a single Project 68 had been built at that time, so there was a certain amount of risk.

                        Project 68 was already in serial production by 1941. Part of the cruise missiles had already been launched—the Molotov had just had the stern of the Frunze transplanted onto it.
                        So if the factories can't build Project 68 after the war, they certainly won't build cruise missiles with 180mm artillery either.
                        Quote: bayard
                        That's what we're talking about, it was what they were waiting for for a normal light cruiser project.

                        Why wait? The first 152/57 guns were produced before the war, and they fought during it as waiting tanks. If Bolshevik can't produce the 152/57, then they won't produce the 180/57 either.
                        Quote: bayard
                        In January 1945, when the war with Germany was still going on and the war with Japan was still looming, quick solutions and projects that industry was capable of building were needed.

                        By 1945, the industry had five unfinished Project 68 cruise missile hulls on hand, plus a backlog of pre-war unfinished construction of the same project. It would be difficult to find a more rapid solution. wink
                      23. 0
                        29 July 2026 12: 37
                        Nevertheless, Kuznetsov included both Project 26 and Project 68 in the list for consideration at the meeting, specifically as alternative options for discussion and consideration. This is precisely why the total number of light cruisers was abnormally large, as only one had to be chosen. Naturally, the more advanced Project 68 was selected.
                        Other large ship positions obviously implied the completion of battleships, light cruisers, and heavy cruisers laid down before the war, and also as a list for consideration, since a proposal immediately arose to complete some of them as aircraft carriers. This, however, was also rejected due to a lack of designs and the unpreparedness of the industry.
        2. +2
          25 July 2026 07: 35
          Thank you for the detailed comment. It's nice to read well-reasoned thoughts. Regarding the Navy and Admiral Kuznetsov, here they're discussing a ten-year plan, while there, conditions for the Pacific Fleet were supposed to change.
          Okay, let's see how Andrey will reproduce the analysis of a hypothetical duel between the Pr. 66 and the cruiser De Moine (as if the Americans were building a heavy cruiser for a duel).
          1. -2
            25 July 2026 16: 35
            Quote: Victor Leningradets
            As for the Fleet and Admiral Kuznetsov, here they are discussing a ten-year plan, and there the conditions for the Pacific Fleet were supposed to change

            Stalin ordered Kuznetsov to prepare such a plan in January 1945. That is, the war with Germany wasn't over yet, and the war with Japan was still ahead. So it was time to do something with the fleet and restart the shipyards that had been idle during the war, but... and this is also interesting - we were facing a war with Japan. There was no immediate certainty that it would happen, so Kuznetsov drew up the plan with the future objectives of the war with Japan in mind. The ships, of course, wouldn't be ready in time, but the Yalta Conference had already taken place. Roosevelt promised the USSR Sakhalin, the Kuril Islands, and Hokkaido for its participation in the war. Stalin insisted on the latter. So yes, Kuznetsov could have had in mind future/promising naval bases in the Pacific Ocean. Although industry was fundamentally unable to fulfill such an order at that time.
            Quote: Victor Leningradets
            At the same time, about ultra-long-range turbojet projectiles.

            The characteristics of those guns are known. One could try to argue that there is no point in shooting so far beyond the horizon, because how can one make adjustments? But what if we look deeper?
            Kolobov mentioned the "Kondensator," which is 406 mm. "And they couldn't make it smaller." But the task was specifically for a 12" shell, and they were working on that, but they couldn't do it—"We can only do it in 406 mm." And what did Stalin say to that? "Well, let's go with 406 mm for now."
            Now let's take a closer look - where do we have such calibers and where are we planning on having them in the future? Yes, here they are - old, but modernized battleships with 52-caliber 12" guns, and now new light cruisers are being designed for the same caliber. So it turns out that we already have ready-made ships for the 12" shell, and prospective ships are being designed. That's why Stalin insisted on this caliber, not for two or four new light cruisers back then, but also for very real old battleships with very long-range guns. That is, the requirement for a 12" shell was set taking into account that we already have such ships. Just as we have coastal guns of the same caliber (after all, we are now facing two leading naval powers, and we practically have no navy).
            Why then did you agree to the 406 mm shell, even with a heavy heart?
            Because we also have a ship with such guns – the battleship Julius Caesar – a WWI battleship modernized in the interwar period. And it does indeed have 10 x 16" guns. But it's the only one. But with 12" main guns, there are still more. And even having agreed to the 406 mm shell, there was still hope that a 12" nuclear shell would eventually appear.
            Quote: Victor Leningradets
            Okay, let's see how Andrey will reproduce the analysis of a hypothetical duel between the Pr. 66 and the cruiser De Moine (as if the Americans were building a heavy cruiser for a duel).

            Now this is pure alternative thinking. It might be amusing, of course, but for the same money and in the same military unit, they could have built an Alaska-like design with 9 x 12" .52-caliber guns. A ship of a completely different class and capabilities, and there was no need to create yet another non-standard caliber.
            Fantasies will remain fantasies, but a realistic analysis of events, possibilities, and plans is far more interesting. A heavy cruiser with 220mm main guns, especially with such a powerful weapon, price, and construction time. It's no surprise they abandoned it.
            Although Khrushchev generally abandoned the entire surface ship program.
            1. 0
              27 July 2026 23: 37
              Quote: bayard
              And it does have a 10 x 16"

              At what point does 320mm become 16 inches? Come to my senses, it's 12,5".
            2. +1
              28 July 2026 17: 10
              Quote: bayard
              Although Khrushchev generally abandoned the entire surface ship program.

              The Project 58 RKR, the Project 57-bis EM (plus the modernized Project 56) and the Project 61 BPK look at this statement with bewilderment. smile
              The NSH abandoned artillery ships. It had no objection to ships carrying guided missiles. Incidentally, the same thing happened in aviation—missile defense and missile-carrying ships continued to be built as if nothing had happened.
              1. -2
                28 July 2026 18: 47
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Project 58 RKR, Project 57-bis EM (plus modernized Project 56) and Project 61 BPK

                We're talking about large ships. As a result, during the Cuban Missile Crisis, there was simply nothing to send as escort for the transports. And missile armament for ships was only just being drafted back then, it was imperfect, and as a result, the USSR only acquired a blue-water fleet in the 70s. Then they remembered about aircraft carriers, although their design had begun under Stalin. Was that the right decision? The US military-built aircraft carriers, albeit modernized, sailed and fought until the 80s. And the Iowa-class carriers were pulled out of reserve in the 80s and returned to service. So, a full series of Project 68 and LEr-class ships would not have hurt the USSR at all. But the industry would have gained experience, and the sailors would have gained large ships for long voyages, and escorts for the aircraft carriers, which were also planned. But Stalin, of course, was a "Terran."
                1. +1
                  29 July 2026 12: 05
                  Quote: bayard
                  We're talking about large ships. As a result, during the Cuban Missile Crisis, there was simply nothing to send as escort for the transports.

                  "Simply Nothing" refers to the 14 Project 68-bis cruise missiles already accepted by the Navy before construction of large artillery ships was halted. Minus the Nakhimov and Dzerzhinsky prototypes, that leaves 12 remaining.
                  If the Navy hasn't decided to send these Sverdlovs to Cuba, what good will another 7 practically identical cruise missiles and 2 light cruise missiles do?
                  Quote: bayard
                  ...as a result, the USSR only acquired a blue-water navy in the 70s. Then they remembered about aircraft carriers, although their design had begun under Stalin. Was that also the right decision?

                  The navy had always had aircraft carriers in mind. But it wasn't until the 70s that it was able to push through their construction, albeit in the form of the Frankenstein-like Project 1143. The same Project 85 project of the mid-50s was nixed by Gorshkov, who replaced Kuznetsov—apparently, the newly appointed commander-in-chief didn't want to stir things up in the Central Committee and the army.
                  1. 0
                    29 July 2026 12: 55
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    "Simply Nothing" refers to the 14 Project 68-bis cruise missiles already accepted by the Navy before construction of large artillery ships was halted. Minus the Nakhimov and Dzerzhinsky prototypes, that leaves 12 remaining.

                    But these ships and their crews weren't ready for such a mission; readiness and availability are two different things. After the debacle of the naval construction program, they simply weren't taken seriously and weren't prepared for such missions. That's why they sent submarines. According to American sailors, if our convoys had been escorted by Soviet ships, even if only symbolically, the American fleet wouldn't have dared to stop them, much less impede their passage to Cuba with weapons. Still, the visible presence of a nuclear power cooled their hotheads, and they wouldn't have resorted to madness. They might have stood their ground, but American sailors claimed that even if our convoy had ignored their orders to stop, given the presence of Soviet warships, they wouldn't have dared to use force. Perhaps this is the opinion of individual sailors, and there were certainly hawks, but Kennedy certainly didn't want war. Everything would have been decided as it was, but the presence of warship escorts with the convoy of transport ships would have been more convincing. After all, the main point of the American accusations was that we secretly brought missiles to Cuba. This meant that we were allegedly preparing a surprise attack on the United States. The presence of escort ships would have eliminated this accusation. It would no longer be "secretly," but "without notification." To which the response would have been that the American missiles in England and Turkey were also not coordinated when deployed there. But this is already the reasoning of old diplomats, politicians, and military men. Things are long gone. The events of today are no less vehement.
                    1. +1
                      30 July 2026 11: 31
                      Quote: bayard
                      But these ships and their crews weren't ready for such a mission; readiness and availability are two different things. After the debacle of the Navy's construction programs, they simply weren't taken seriously and weren't prepared for such missions.

                      And who is to blame for the fact that, 10 years after the end of the war, the Navy continued to carry orders for artillery ships based on redesigned pre-war designs? wink The navy was simply asking for a pogrom.
                      And there was already the first warning sign - In December 1954, the Council of Ministers issued a decree refusing further orders for Project 56 destroyers.They were replaced by modernized Project 56-M and EM anti-ship missile carriers. That is, during the rearmament to missiles, production of the series continued. Instead of purely artillery-launched Project 57 EMs, Project 57-bis EMs with anti-ship missiles were ordered.
                      But no—construction of the artillery-launched cruise missiles continued. And even when industry, usually extremely negative about any design changes, finally proposed two projects to the Navy for upgrading the Project 68-bis to anti-aircraft cruise missiles, the Navy drowned them in approvals, confirmations, and improvements. The end is a bit predictable ... ©
                      1. 0
                        30 July 2026 15: 58
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        And who is to blame for the fact that, 10 years after the end of the war, the Navy continued to carry orders for artillery ships based on redesigned pre-war designs?

                        But back then, in 1953-1954, were there any suitable ready-made anti-ship missile and naval air defense missile systems? The previous program had been approved and was being implemented. Before that, we had no ocean-going ships (cruisers) at all. The Project 68 was just that; it allowed our fleet to go ocean-going, represent the country's interests in various corners of the globe, was impressive when our delegations arrived on board, and aroused the interest and even admiration of the local population. And that alone is no small feat. And as an artillery ship, it was indispensable for amphibious operations as a fire support ship. It was in this capacity that they were kept until the collapse of the USSR.
                        And such ships had potential for modernization. With the advent of the first sensible anti-ship missiles, their launchers (four missiles each) could replace the main battery turrets. At least the second and third, and at most all four. There was no possibility of reloading them at sea, but for those times, a warhead of eight or even 16 heavy anti-ship missiles was quite impressive.
                        But Khrushchev's decisions to curtail shipbuilding programs for all large ships (and especially aircraft carriers) were political in nature, not military-strategic or even economic. Khrushchev collapsed the economy even without shutting down shipbuilding programs, especially in the consumer goods and services sector. The abolition of the government and Gosplan alone was costly.
    2. +4
      23 July 2026 10: 31
      Quote: Konnick
      The NATO fleet would not even allow our battleships and cruisers to come within artillery range...destroying them with their aircraft from aircraft carriers.

      In reality, things aren't quite that simple. Immediately after the war, gunships still retained their importance, and aircraft carriers became the dominant force, but artillery remained important and necessary.
    3. +5
      23 July 2026 14: 16
      A battleship for every admiral...

      Generals (Admirals) are preparing for the past war, not the future one!
      1. +3
        23 July 2026 14: 53
        If the country lies in ruins, it’s difficult to prepare for Star Wars and invent lightsabers.
        1. +3
          23 July 2026 15: 38
          Quote: hohol95
          If the country lies in ruins, it’s difficult to prepare for Star Wars and invent lightsabers.

          Good day Alexey!
          The thesis I have put forward concerns not only the post-war USSR, but all countries, fleets and armies.
          As for us, in 1945, we received a number of interesting ships from the Axis powers as reparations. So the first program was designed with an eye, including on trophies.
          1. +2
            23 July 2026 16: 10
            It would be difficult without looking back at the trophies.
            But ship trophies were not the latest fashion.
            If we don’t take into account the German submarines.
            1. +1
              24 July 2026 03: 54
              Well, it’s not always appropriate, but….
              For example, in what category of value should captured training sailing vessels be included?
              1. +1
                24 July 2026 08: 02
                How many training ships were there in the USSR before June 22, 1941?
                How much was left on May 9, 1945?
                This is how you can calculate the value of UPS at the end of the 40s.
              2. +4
                24 July 2026 20: 21
                Well, it’s not always appropriate, but….
                For example, in what category of value should captured training sailing vessels be included?

                Top-notch value, as it turns out. Still working. laughing
        2. +3
          24 July 2026 12: 01
          Quote: hohol95
          If the country lies in ruins, it’s difficult to prepare for Star Wars and invent lightsabers.

          The problem is that money and resources were still spent on the construction of projects that were inferior even to the already built ships of a potential enemy. sad
          1. +2
            24 July 2026 12: 18
            Even before the war, they spent a lot of money on "paper" from the Italians, and then they scratched their heads and thought about how to justify the expenses.
            Money and resources were spent.
            If they hadn't spent it, wouldn't it have resulted in a return to what happened in the 20s and 30s on the Soviet maritime borders?
            The combined naval forces of the US and UK could enter Soviet territorial waters without any problem, and the USSR Navy would then have nothing with which to counter such provocations.
            1. +1
              24 July 2026 15: 35
              Quote: hohol95
              If they hadn't spent it, wouldn't it have resulted in a return to what happened in the 20s and 30s on the Soviet maritime borders?

              That could have been spent wisely. Those same destroyers could have at least been equipped with the SM-5-1. Yes, the caliber is smaller. But there was the experience of the previous war, in which the main enemy at sea was the aircraft.
              1. 0
                24 July 2026 15: 57
                Would the EM body be able to handle this installation?
                Still, the rotating part weighs 43 tons.
                1. +2
                  24 July 2026 18: 04
                  Quote: hohol95
                  Would the EM body be able to handle this installation?
                  Still, the rotating part weighs 43 tons.

                  The mass of the rotating part of the standard B-2LM "thirty" is 42 tons.
                  1. 0
                    24 July 2026 19: 22
                    Plus 1 ton...
                    There was probably a safety margin.
                    But universal twin 100mm.
                    Wouldn't it have been better to create an anti-submarine ship project based on the 30 bis project?
                    With one torpedo tube, twin hundred-meter tubes and enhanced anti-aircraft armament.
                    But that's just my guess.
  7. BAI
    +1
    23 July 2026 08: 46
    The plan shows the presence of a systemic crisis in domestic naval thought of those years.

    There was no crisis. Europe was supposed to be the main theater of military operations, and there everything was under the control of ground aviation—aircraft carriers were not needed.
  8. +3
    23 July 2026 09: 00
    What is most interesting is that the plan included the construction of aircraft carriers. The USSR had no such experience, nor any specialized aircraft (deck-based aviation).
    It was interesting to see the first Soviet aircraft carrier in 55.
    1. +4
      23 July 2026 13: 07
      Quote: dragon772
      It was interesting to see the first Soviet aircraft carrier in 55.
      If only... Before the war, the construction of two Soviet aircraft carriers (Project 71, with 15 fighters and 30 torpedo bombers each) was planned. The war intervened, after which four large and four small aircraft carriers were planned for construction by 1956. However, for economic reasons, Stalin agreed to the construction of only two small carriers, which, like the heavy cruisers, were not completed after the leader's death.
      The drawings show what we could have had (pre-war Project 71), and the Soviet nuclear "Ulyanovsk", which was dismantled on the slipway after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
      1. +4
        23 July 2026 14: 54
        Quote: Per se.
        Before the war, the construction of two Soviet aircraft carriers (Project 71, with 15 fighters and 30 torpedo bombers each) was planned. The war intervened.

        How useful they would be, especially in the Black Sea, instead of battleships and cruisers
        1. +3
          23 July 2026 15: 39
          But what kind of planes would take off from their decks?
          Even the British were in dire straits with carrier fighters.
          Until the Americans started supplying them.
          1. +1
            23 July 2026 18: 59
            Quote: hohol95
            But what kind of planes would take off from their decks?
            Even the British were in dire straits with carrier fighters.
            Until the Americans started supplying them.

            The same goes for the I-15 "Chaika." This fighter-attack aircraft could take off and land at 120 meters. It would have been able to protect against the "Laptezhniki." And it could have fought a Messerschmitt in horizontal flight, just like the I-16.
            1. -1
              23 July 2026 19: 37
              Would you like to joke?
              Which I-15 versus the Ju-87, Ju-88 or Me-109?
              4 7,62 machine guns and 2 for 50 kg of bombs.
              Who are we going to shoot down?
              Who shall we sink?
              1. +1
                24 July 2026 07: 02
                Quote: hohol95
                Would you like to joke?
                There were projects in the early 30s, including the SHON (special purpose attack aircraft). In 1936, the R-5T carrier-based torpedo bomber was added to the SHON. Later, carrier-based modifications were developed, including the I-180K (based on the I-180), the I-190F, and the Yak-30 (developed by the Yakovlev Design Bureau). What's the point of all this, if the aircraft carriers were never built?
                1. +1
                  24 July 2026 08: 05
                  The aircraft carriers were not built.
                  And all attempts to turn the R-5 into a torpedo bomber were not very successful.
                  It turns out there was a lot of paper and there weren’t even any experimental products.
                  1. +2
                    24 July 2026 10: 22
                    Quote: hohol95
                    It turns out there was a lot of paper and there weren’t even any experimental products.

                    It's hard to say... Back in 1927, the conversion of the training ship Komsomolets (formerly Okean) into a prototype aircraft carrier began. It entered service in 1934. The first carrier-based aircraft were the SHON attack torpedo bombers and I-5K fighters.
                    Also in 1936, the R-5T carrier-based torpedo bomber entered service, complementing the SHON attack aircraft. The 450mm torpedo was purchased from the Italians. That same year, the I-5K carrier-based fighters were replaced by I-15Ks.
                    The R-5T's shortcomings included its single-seat design and the lack of any defensive armament, so development of a new carrier-based torpedo bomber began in 1937. In 1938, fleet maneuvers were held in the Baltic, featuring the aircraft carrier Krasnoye Znamya (the new name of Komsomolets). As part of the exercise, aircraft carried out reconnaissance for the Reds, provided fighter air support for the squadron, and conducted mock bombing and torpedo runs against the decommissioned battleship Mikhail Frunze.
                    In 1940, the training aircraft carrier Krasnoye Znamya underwent modernization and received new aircraft – I-153K fighters.
                    The air group was significantly reduced, now comprising only 18 aircraft. A single large lift elevator was installed in place of two small ones, and the carrier received a pneumatic catapult for testing, which also facilitated the takeoff of I-153K fighters.
                    The aircraft carrier Krasnoye Znamya departed for Kronstadt shortly after June 22, 1941. Its air group participated in the defense of Leningrad, operating primarily from coastal airfields. The ship itself was camouflaged and suffered repeated damage. It was decommissioned in 1945.
                    It wasn't all that way on paper.
                    1. +1
                      24 July 2026 12: 45
                      Where does this "alternative" come from?

                      The lack of funds for the ship's refit and technical design development, as well as the desire to undertake any work in this direction, sealed the fate of this project. It produced no results. Building a fleet according to the "Small Fleet" concept precluded any possibility of constructing aircraft carriers. They disappeared from shipbuilding plans for ten years.

                      http://www.xliby.ru/transport_i_aviacija/tehnika_i_vooruzhenie_1999_07/p2.php
                      1. +3
                        24 July 2026 13: 05
                        As Semyon Semyonovich (in "The Diamond Arm") said, it's from there. Consider it a sad fantasy—an alternative, although in 1927, the possibility of converting the Komsomolets training ship into a training aircraft carrier was indeed considered. Personally, I haven't found a single real photo of such a carrier in the Baltic. Fantasies about the Graf Zeppelin are no less colorful. My apologies.
                      2. +4
                        24 July 2026 17: 41
                        Quote: Per se.
                        Personally, I have not found a single real photo of our aircraft carrier in the Baltic.

                        Because there weren't any, not at all...

                        Quote: Per se.
                        Fantasies on the theme of "Count Zeppelin" are no less colorful.

                        There were several options: from a floating deck aviation stand to a complete restoration...
                      3. 0
                        28 July 2026 08: 05
                        After a thorough inspection, there was no option for restoration. Only scrap metal.
                      4. 0
                        28 July 2026 11: 42
                        Quote: dr5r
                        After a thorough inspection, there was no option for restoration. Only scrap metal.

                        So you're suggesting that in report No. 963ss of July 30, 1946, addressed to Comrade I.V. Stalin, People's Commissar of the Navy Kuznetsov simply lied when he described the possible uses of the Zeppelin?
                      5. 0
                        29 July 2026 10: 32
                        If he wasn't lying, he was exaggerating. In fact, after the destruction of the propulsion plant, it would have been cheaper to rebuild everything, especially since the shipyard and its employees were partially transferred to the USSR (Gotenhafen, or Gdynia, and Stettin, where the Graf was moored).
                        Well, Joseph the Terrible's reluctance to continue building the galosh, but testing the means of air destruction on it, they say, "not everything is so clear-cut" :-)
                      6. +1
                        29 July 2026 12: 03
                        Quote: dr5r
                        In fact, after the destruction of the power plant mechanisms, it is cheaper to build everything anew,

                        During the complete restoration, the option of partial (TZA) replacement of the power plant was considered.
                      7. 0
                        30 July 2026 18: 51
                        Do you really believe that even the most experienced machine-gun crew officers and long-serving Red Navy sailors wouldn't have blown the boilers the first time? There are sixteen of those extremely capricious, gluttonous, and crooked LaMonts, and the fact that they were left relatively intact is a sabotage worse than blowing up the main engines. If she's dead, she's dead (c)
                      8. +1
                        30 July 2026 19: 03
                        Quote: dr5r
                        Do you really believe that even the most experienced machine command officers and long-serving Red Navy sailors wouldn't have blown the boilers the first time?

                        Well... there weren't any big problems with the Wagners.

                        Quote: dr5r
                        gluttonous and crooked LaMonts

                        I have a suspicion that the rumors about the "crookedness" of German cars are somewhat exaggerated and a lot depended on the quality of their manufacture.
                        Example: the twin ships were equipped with identical Wagner guns, but Operation Berlin had to be abandoned due to the Scharnhorst's boiler tubes beginning to rupture en masse. Upon arrival in Brest, an inspection revealed that the Gneisenau would require approximately a month of routine repairs (it was planned to be sent to sea with the Bismarck and Eugen), while the Scharnhorst needed a three-month overhaul of its main engine room...
                      9. 0
                        31 July 2026 23: 45
                        If there are critical errors from everything—the curvature is what it is, whether it's the designers' work or not—the end result is crap. Sharn apparently received a dose of unboiled water in the turbines, which could have turned some of the blades into lace.
                      10. +1
                        1 August 2026 11: 32
                        Quote: dr5r
                        If there are critical errors from everything, then the crookedness is what it is, whether it’s the hands or the designers, the result is crap.

                        But the joke is that there were no such problems at Gneisenau.
                    2. +1
                      28 July 2026 08: 05
                      Silently holds out the box
              2. -1
                24 July 2026 07: 46
                Quote: hohol95
                Would you like to joke?
                Which I-15 versus the Ju-87, Ju-88 or Me-109?
                4 7,62 machine guns and 2 for 50 kg of bombs.
                Who are we going to shoot down?
                Who shall we sink?

                Why four ShKAS? They had other armaments, even the ShVAK cannon. But most importantly, they could accurately use the RS-82, unlike the Il-2. Rechkalov, flying a Chaika, shot down a 109th fighter on June 27th, using an RS-4.
                In August 1941, eight Bf-109Es attacked four Chaikas attacking an enemy motorized column. On command from their leader, A. Smirnov, the I-153s performed a combat turn (eight seconds, while the Messerschmitt took 20). During the battle, our pilots shot down two Bf-109Es without losing a single one of their own.
                Many examples can be cited... The I-15's survivability during ground attack was much higher than that of the armored Il-2. These aircraft could not be used as interceptors, but they would have been quite capable as fighter escorts for naval convoys.
                1. +1
                  24 July 2026 08: 09
                  You are confusing I-15 with I-153.
                  Ask the Soviet pilots who died in Mongolia taking off in I-15s against Japanese Ki-27s about how to "cover sea convoys" and shoot down Messerschmitts in I-15s.
                  1. -1
                    24 July 2026 08: 32
                    Quote: hohol95
                    You are confusing I-15 with I-153.
                    Ask the Soviet pilots who died in Mongolia taking off in I-15s against Japanese Ki-27s about how to "cover sea convoys" and shoot down Messerschmitts in I-15s.

                    Is there anything else to complain about? Well, the I-153 has a takeoff run of 106 meters...
                    1. 0
                      24 July 2026 09: 41
                      What's there to find fault with?
                      In 1941, the I-15 and I-153 were no longer able to protect their ships from enemy air raids.
                      1. 0
                        24 July 2026 10: 00
                        Quote: hohol95
                        What's there to find fault with?
                        In 1941, the I-15 and I-153 were no longer able to protect their ships from enemy air raids.

                        It's a pity...that this Baltic Fleet pilot, Senior Lieutenant N.P. Khromov, cannot respond to your unsubstantiated report.
                      2. +1
                        24 July 2026 12: 33
                        You are trying to compare a land-based fighter with a "mythical" naval modification.
                        For every one Khromov there were "ten Ivanovs/Petrovs/Sidorovs" shot down on an I-153/Yak-1/LaGG-3 and so on.
                        The use of the I-153 in 1943 was due to poverty and constant losses of new model aircraft.
                      3. -1
                        24 July 2026 12: 40
                        Quote: hohol95
                        You are trying to compare a land-based fighter with a "mythical" naval modification.
                        For every one Khromov there were "ten Ivanovs/Petrovs/Sidorovs" shot down on an I-153/Yak-1/LaGG-3 and so on.
                        The use of the I-153 in 1943 was due to poverty and constant losses of new model aircraft.

                        What does land-based aircraft have to do with it? The I-153 Chaika was a ready-made fighter for an aircraft carrier with a 120-meter flight deck.
                        You said he was incapable of fighting the Messerschmitts. What does land-based support have to do with it?
                      4. +2
                        24 July 2026 12: 58
                        You have an aircraft carrier, but which was actually the base for the I-153?
                        Or were experiments carried out to land the "Seagulls" on the deck?
                        The Chaika could not fight the Messer on equal terms.
                        Or do you think that if the British in their Gloucester Gladiator carrier-based biplanes sometimes managed to shoot down Messerschmitts, then the Gladiator is on par with the Me-109?
                        The same thing happens with "The Seagull".
                        An ace pilot on an I-153 could have shot down even a Ju-88 under certain circumstances.
                        An ordinary private pilot could not have shot down a Heschel-126 even in a Yak-1.

                        And land-based, given that the carrier-based aircraft differs slightly in its design from its land-based brother.
                        The Finns, having purchased the Brewster fighter from the Yankees, removed from their design all the gadgets for using the fighter from the deck of an aircraft carrier.
                        Thus lightening the fighter.
                        The British, having received the Brewsters, did not do this.
                        For the Finns, the Brewster became one of the best fighters, while the British "drooled over it."
          2. +2
            24 July 2026 08: 52
            Quote: hohol95
            But what kind of planes would take off from their decks?

            They could have done it while the ship was being built. It's not that big of a problem.
            Quote: hohol95
            Even the British had a sad situation with carrier fighters

            The British were in a fundamentally poor position with their carrier-based aircraft because they didn't attach any importance to them—that was just their tactical outlook at the time, with 90% of their air group being torpedo bombers. By the time they realized they'd screwed up, it was too late, and besides, industry simply couldn't come up with anything new right away; it was quicker and easier to borrow from the Americans through Lend-Lease.
            1. +1
              24 July 2026 09: 39
              They took it from the Americans.
              But they also placed their own "Spitas" on the deck of aircraft carriers and it turned out that the "great and terrible" was completely unsuitable for service at sea.
              They would have done the same in the USSR.
              They would have taken a land-based fighter model and, by order, sent it to the deck of an aircraft carrier.
              1. +1
                24 July 2026 09: 57
                Quote: hohol95
                But they also placed their own "Spitas" on the deck of aircraft carriers.

                Quote: hohol95
                They would have done the same in the USSR.

                No. You're not taking into account that the Seafires were an impromptu move, because the British urgently needed a carrier-based aircraft carrier. That is, after the fighting, they realized they had made a mistake by ignoring carrier-based aircraft carriers—and they had two options: urgently adapt something of their own or borrow from the Americans. So, the impromptu move failed.
                In the USSR, an aircraft carrier would have been built for years, and during that time, aircraft would have been built for it in a planned manner.
                1. +1
                  24 July 2026 12: 09
                  The aircraft carrier would take more than one year to build.

                  And his air group would age in terms of its performance characteristics faster than the aircraft carrier could be built.
                  1. +3
                    24 July 2026 12: 22
                    Quote: hohol95
                    And his air group would be aging in terms of its performance characteristics.

                    Well then there is no need to develop any airplane - it’s getting old...
                    1. +1
                      24 July 2026 12: 36
                      Just like the ship!
                      Especially in the case of long-term construction.
                      Having adopted one type of carrier-based fighter, it would be necessary to immediately begin designing its replacement or a thorough modernization.
                      Would a similar conveyor of design work be able to afford the "wallet"?
                      1. +2
                        24 July 2026 13: 23
                        Quote: hohol95
                        Would a similar conveyor of design work be able to afford the "wallet"?

                        Alexey, are you kidding me? :)))))) Designing an aircraft back then wasn't the same as creating a 5th-generation fighter. Look at the kaleidoscope of aircraft we designed in the lead-up to WWII. One more, one less—it's practically unnoticeable on a national scale.
                      2. +1
                        24 July 2026 13: 38
                        That kaleidoscope was almost entirely in the hands of the Red Army Air Forces.
                        Fleet aviation probably received much less attention.
                        And the main design bureaus that worked for the Navy designed seaplanes.
                        And the torpedo bombers, attack aircraft and fighters were equipped with equipment designed for the Air Force.
                        I don’t think that the DB-3T or Il-4T differed very much in the composition of their equipment from their land-based brothers.
                        Of course, special equipment was installed, but this did not lead to a drastic change in the aircraft’s design.
                      3. -1
                        26 July 2026 12: 25
                        At the turn of the 40s and 50s, the USSR, in anticipation of its own aircraft carriers, did indeed develop specialized carrier-based aircraft. This included a carrier-based attack aircraft with a coaxial propeller and an engine layout similar to the Airacobra (the engine shaft, encased, was located between the pilot's legs). It was quite large and powerful, and specifically designed for carrier-based use. An article about this aircraft appeared on VO about 10 years ago and should be in the site's archives in the aviation section. But they didn't have time to build it—after Stalin's death, Khrushchev shut down all shipbuilding programs for large surface ships.
            2. +3
              24 July 2026 18: 11
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              They could have done it while the ship was being built. It's not that big of a problem.

              There will be two problems. The traditional one is the engine. A carrier-based aircraft is always heavier than a similar shore-based one: a reinforced structure plus purely marine equipment. So the increased weight will have to be compensated for somehow. The second problem is light alloys, as I somehow doubt the durability of plywood on the deck. wink
              Oh, and there's a third problem: communications and navigation. Even the leading forces, the United States, had this problem. In a battle report from early 1943, the Big E commander wrote that the radio range prevented the SAR from carrying out long-range interceptions—fighters simply couldn't hear the aircraft. So, they had to resort to contrivance, guiding the fighters using radio navigation signals. This problem has been reported to the higher-ups for a year now, but it's still the same.
              1. +2
                24 July 2026 19: 34
                Quote: Alexey RA
                There will be two problems. Traditionally - the engine.

                This is an eternal problem of the USSR aviation and nothing happened - they kept circling around.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Because a deck-based aircraft is always heavier than a similar shore-based one: reinforced structure + purely marine equipment.

                Конечно.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                And the second problem is light alloys, because I somehow doubt the durability of plywood on the deck.

                You're absolutely right. That's exactly how the mass issue is resolved.
                We didn't have alloys for tens of thousands of Air Force aircraft. But for dozens of carrier-based aircraft, we would have found alloys, which, incidentally, would have resulted in a significant weight savings, significantly offsetting the added weight of carrier-based aircraft.
                And one more thing. This carrier-based aircraft is needed primarily not for combat with "skinny" aircraft, but for intercepting torpedo bombers and bombers. And the latter could not always be covered by land-based German aircraft.
              2. +1
                24 July 2026 19: 39
                A striking example of this comes from the UK -
                Fairey Fulmar.
                Two-seat fighter - pilot + navigator.
                They write that when attempting to "defend" the aircraft carrier Hermes off Ceylon, the Fulmar crews had a difficult time even fighting Japanese Aichi D3A1 Kanbaku dive bombers.
        2. +1
          24 July 2026 06: 51
          Quote: Konnick
          How would they come in handy?
          Could anyone have imagined back then that the Germans would be in Sevastopol and on the Volga? They would have been useful in the Pacific or in the North, and even in the Black Sea, they could have provided cover for the fleet during its raids on enemy shores, and kept Turkey from temptation.
          1. +3
            24 July 2026 18: 56
            Quote: Per se.
            They would have been useful in the Pacific Ocean or in the north, and in the Black Sea they could have covered the fleet during its raids on enemy shores, and kept Turkey from temptations.

            In the Black Sea, the aircraft carriers would have perished without a proper base. Because all shipbuilding and ship repair facilities would have been either seized (Nikolaev) or blockaded (Sevastopol).
            This would have been the case if the Germans had not bombed them right in the port - as they did on July 2, 1942 in Novorossiysk.
            The raid lasted until 12:51 a.m. and resulted in the sinking of the warship Tashkent, the destroyer Bditelny, the ambulance transport Ukraina, the rescue tug Chernomor, three fishing boats, one barge, and the unfinished hull of the transport Proletary. The cruiser Komintern, the destroyers Soobrazitelny and Nezamozhnik, the patrol ships Shtorm and Shkval, the submarine L-24, torpedo boat No. 41, the transport Kursk, and the floating dock with the transport Voroshilov sustained varying degrees of damage.
            1. +2
              27 July 2026 07: 21
              Quote: Alexey RA
              In the Black Sea, the aircraft carriers would have died without a proper base.

              If we assume that the AV is an alternative history, why can't we assume that the Germans wouldn't have reached Crimea? Don't you think it's impossible for one assumption to be objective, while the other is based on reality? Who knows, cause and effect changes a lot. Perhaps, had the aircraft carrier idea been implemented, something else would have changed, in our favor... We need to think about this; history teaches nothing if we ignore the "subjunctive mood" and don't analyze all the possible scenarios.
              1. +2
                27 July 2026 10: 39
                Quote: Per se.
                If AV is considered an alternative history, why can’t we assume that the Germans would not have reached Crimea?

                You're right. If the USSR, with its traditional preference for boots over burnouts, found the resources, industrial capacity, and personnel to build and operate anti-aircraft guns in 1941, that means its army was definitely stronger than it actually was. smile
                Because in a sensible alternative, no one will allow us to deal with maritime affairs without solving the problems on land.
                Quote: Per se.
                Perhaps, if the aircraft carrier theme had been implemented, something else would have changed, in our favor...

                If the pre-war USSR builds and operates aircraft carriers, then it is a completely different USSR with a different industry.
                This USSR has no problems with steel—unlike in reality, when between 1937 and 1941, orders for guns tripled, for ammunition quadrupled, and iron and steel production increased by 3-5%. And they had to cut corners, producing one system at the expense of others.
                This USSR has no problems with engines and aluminum. This USSR has no problems with communications.
                This USSR has no problem with skilled labor. Unlike in real life, when factories in Leningrad and Nikolaev are operating at 50% of their full complement, while in Molotovsk they're dismantling a battleship due to defective riveting.
                And from somewhere this USSR got sailors who understood aviation. smile
                1. 0
                  27 July 2026 12: 30
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  And from somewhere this USSR got sailors who understood aviation.
                  Alexey, should we have laid down three Sovetsky Soyuz-class battleships? Perhaps it would have been better to modernize the Tsarist dreadnoughts to a modern standard, as the Italians did? Perhaps destroyers, minelayers, and submarines were more necessary? Was everything right on the eve of the war, where aircraft were huddled on airfields and new tanks "in sheds"? Therefore, it's not a given that this alternative scenario, with the conversion of at least one training aircraft carrier, could not have happened. Even with what we had, the Germans, had the USSR mobilized for a possible attack, had virtually no chance of victory, of a blitzkrieg, of reaching the Volga and Crimea. Fatal errors and miscalculations led to the pogrom of 1941; without them, there would have been no loss of Sevastopol and the fleet's withdrawal from Tallinn.
                  Whatever happened, happened; in any case, the evacuation boosted industry and science in Siberia and the Urals, and, ultimately, they got a bloc of socialist countries, a new world pole of power.
                  1. +2
                    27 July 2026 16: 01
                    Quote: Per se.
                    Alexey, we should have laid down three battleships of the Sovetsky Soyuz type.

                    In retrospect, no. But the industry needed to be modernized to accommodate them.
                    Quote: Per se.
                    Perhaps it would have been better to modernize the Tsarist dreadnoughts to a modern level, as the Italians did?

                    There's no way to bring Seva up to today's level. Their limit is the Parisian.
                    There are two main problems: anti-tank protection (or rather, the lack thereof) and the extreme difficulty of reinforcing the anti-aircraft guns with the current turret layout. If only we could buy Limey's 114mm twin-link underdeck mounts... smile
                    Quote: Per se.
                    Perhaps destroyers, minelayers, and submarines were more needed?

                    All the navy's problems in WWII were a consequence of the army's problems. No matter how many "small fleets" you build, if the army retreats to Leningrad and Novorossiysk, it won't end well.
                    Quote: Per se.
                    Even if the USSR had been mobilized for a possible attack, even with what we had, the Germans had virtually no chance of victory, of a blitzkrieg, of reaching the Volga and Crimea.

                    If we start working on the army in the late 30s, even with a timely mobilization, it will be a disaster. Because the personnel will be the same as in reality.
                    "As a result of all these activities, the operational training of senior officers has grown significantly and is assessed mediocre."
                    ...
                    "Infantry.
                    ...
                    Conclusion: the units and formations of the district, fulfilling your demand for the coordination of companies and battalions, are quite ready for solving simple combat missions "
                    “The training of mortar units and subunits is mediocre, with the exception of the 24th OMB, which is poor. The training of the 45th and 76th regiments of artillery is mediocre.
                    ...
                    The conducted artillery firing and viewing exercises showed that the division’s artillery of the District was prepared to perform combat missions in the main types of combat mediocre.
                    ...
                    The training of the regiments of the ARGK is mediocre, with the exception of 311 popes and 318 hap RGKs, whose training is poor. "

                    © REPORT TO THE COMMISSAR OF DEFENSE OF THE USSR MARSHAL OF THE SOVIET UNION Comrade. TIMOSHENKO S.K. ABOUT THE RESULTS OF BATTLE TRAINING THE TROOPS OF THE WESTERN SPECIAL MILITARY DISTRICT FOR THE WINTER PERIOD 40/41 ACADEMIC YEAR

                    In general, we will get Senno-Lepel on the border.

                    Here we need to start looking for alternatives from the beginning of the 30s... and look for money to train personnel for industry and the army.
                    1. 0
                      28 July 2026 06: 29
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      In retrospect, no. But the industry needed to be modernized to accommodate them.
                      This way, the industry could have been modernized for aircraft carriers or new heavy cruisers, with shorter construction times.
                      The "Seva's" limit is the "Parisian," as you said... Why not just remove the second main battery turret, increase engine power, and lengthen the bow, as the aforementioned Italians did with their old battleships? Even without boring the guns from 305mm to 320mm, we would have produced quite capable heavy cruisers. We've already collaborated with the Italians on the navy; our destroyers and light cruisers are based on Italian designs, even the "Soviet Union" is not without influence. Moreover, we bought the "Tashkent" from the Italians and purchased 100mm twin anti-aircraft guns. The solutions were there, if only there was a will. Regarding the inevitable defeat, I disagree; we've already had the experience of the Finnish campaign, and Khasan and Khalkin-Gol. Let's consider these personal opinions, thank you for the dialogue.
                      1. +2
                        28 July 2026 10: 33
                        Quote: Per se.
                        The limit of the "Seva" is the "Parisian", as you said... Why not remove the second main caliber turret, increase the power of the engines, build up and lengthen the ship's bow, as the already mentioned Italians did with their old battleships.

                        In general, to obtain a Frunze-type light cruiser based on the 30s design.

                        Essentially, it's building a new battleship. We're redesigning the hull's bow, replacing the propulsion plant (they wanted a propulsion plant similar to that on Italian cruise missiles on the Frunze), rearranging the turrets with their under-turret compartments, barbettes, etc., replacing the armor, replacing the plating and rivets in the underwater and partially above-water sections (corrosion, just like in real life), modernizing the turrets (in reality, the industry only managed to do this in the late 30s; the 981st battery received Poltava turrets with the original depression/depression systems), etc. Plus, during the "major modernization," problems that were hidden under a thick layer of paint during minor upgrades will inevitably surface. smile
                        Quote: Per se.
                        I don’t agree with the inevitable defeat; there was already experience with the Finnish company, and Khasan with Khalkin Gol.

                        After all, keep in mind that for the entire existence of Soviet power we have not yet fought a real modern war. Minor episodes in Manchuria, near the lake. Hasan, or in Mongolia, is nonsense, this is not a war, these are isolated episodes in a strictly limited patch. Japan was afraid to unleash a war, we didn’t want that either, and some test of strength on the spot showed that Japan had failed. They had 2-3 divisions and we have 2-3 divisions in Mongolia, the same number on Khasan. Our army has not yet waged a real, serious war.
                        © the best friend of athletes
                        Rebuilding and training the army in real life only began after the SFV. With well-known results...
                    2. +1
                      28 July 2026 11: 47
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      If only I could buy some of their below deck 114mm twins from Limey...

                      Our people themselves designed something similar before the war in a 130mm caliber for the Tashkent and new monitors.
                      But the story there is dark... It seems that it even reached the point of an iron tower.
            2. +2
              28 July 2026 08: 15
              "Tashkent" perished amid the euphoria of a successful return from the shores of Crimea and the appearance of S.M. Budyonny to the people The crew, as well as the awarded (and possibly celebrated) orders and medals. Pure bad luck, coupled with the air defense's incompetence—if they had planned their departure for repairs in Poti at least eight hours earlier, at 6:00 a.m. on July 2, it would have departed.
      2. +1
        24 July 2026 08: 24
        The war got in the way, after which it was planned to build four large and four small aircraft carriers by 1956, but for economic reasons, Stalin agreed to build only two small ones, which, like the heavy cruisers, were not built after the death of the leader.

        So, in essence, Khrushchev refused to build?
        1. +1
          24 July 2026 09: 58
          Essentially, all naval expenditures were cut, and after the explosion of the battleship Novorossiysk, not only was Admiral Kuznetsov (one of the main ideologists of the construction of cruisers and aircraft carriers) punished and dismissed, but Admirals Kalachev, Parkhomenko, Galitsky, Nikolsky, and Kulakov were also punished; they were demoted in rank and position.
          Incidentally, Nikita Sergeyevich shifted military development priorities not only to the detriment of the navy but also of aviation. However, the missile forces and space forces experienced tremendous development. It's hard not to remember that every cloud has a silver lining...
          1. +4
            24 July 2026 18: 21
            Quote: Per se.
            Essentially, all fleet costs were cut.

            Rather, they were redistributed. The emphasis was on the means of delivering light and heat to American citizens (SSBNs with SLBMs and cruise missiles), as well as the means of intercepting similar American delivery vehicles (torpedo submarines and large anti-submarine ships).
            At that time, the anti-submarine aircraft needed to be promoted as a means of air cover for anti-submarine groups—then there would have been a chance. And an air group should have been created from missile carriers—since cannon fighters and iron carriers also fell under the redistribution of resources.
            Quote: Per se.
            By the way, Nikita Sergeevich shifted the priorities of military development not only to the detriment of the navy, but also of aviation.

            The same strategy—deliver the "mushroom growers" themselves and prevent the enemy from doing the same. All aircraft that couldn't carry missiles (air-to-ground and air-to-air) were targeted. Meanwhile, production aircraft modified to carry cruise missiles, anti-ship missiles, and missiles continued as before—the MiG-19 and Tu-95.
            The NSH strategists were 146% right—given the hundreds of Nike-series SAM batteries deployed in the US homeland, Soviet carriers of free-fall nuclear missiles stood practically no chance by the late 50s. But ALCMs offered a chance to fire back and get the Yankees.
          2. +1
            27 July 2026 10: 35
            I remember how the attack aircraft went under fire.
      3. +2
        28 July 2026 00: 50
        Hmm. Doesn't Ulyanovsk have a catapult system? And I don't remember the Yak-44 being designed for a ski-jump.
        1. +2
          28 July 2026 11: 58
          Quote: dr5r
          Hmm. Doesn't Ulyanovsk have a catapult system? And I don't remember the Yak-44 being designed for a ski-jump.

          Combined, so to speak.
          For fighters - a ski-jump, for Yaks - two catapults on the left side with an exit to the bow cut of the corner deck.
          1. 0
            28 July 2026 15: 40
            Thank you! So they use the "over-the-shoulder strap," which is the main boarding method, right?
            1. +1
              28 July 2026 16: 11
              Quote: dr5r
              So they are on the "over the shoulder strap", which is the main landing, it turns out?

              Yes.
              In principle, on 1143.7 they completely repeated the American solution, which they have been using since the Forrestals: one catapult is parallel to the DP (the one closer to the side), the second (the one closer to the DP) is at an angle both to the DP and to the axis of the landing deck.
  9. +5
    23 July 2026 10: 26
    If possible, I'd also like to describe the situation with the fleet's supplies. For example, before the war, Kuznetsov laid down Project 23 battleships, which couldn't even sail due to their draft! And they were planning to spend as much on dredging as on the fleet itself.
    There are a lot of typos in the text, starting with the name of the cruiser "Atlanta", but thank you very much for your work!
    1. +4
      23 July 2026 10: 33
      Quote: uber
      There are many typos in the text, starting with the name of the cruiser "Atlanta",

      I checked the draft - these are not my typos, the editors did their best :))) I don't have "Atlantov", but "Atlant"
      1. +5
        23 July 2026 11: 14
        Then I apologize. Greetings to the editors.
        1. +3
          23 July 2026 11: 17
          Quote: uber
          Then I'm sorry.

          Well, you're welcome - especially since you simply noted the presence of typos without criticizing the author. :)
  10. +6
    23 July 2026 11: 44
    The question isn't even what kind of ships they're planning to build, but what kind of armament they'll carry. A combat surface ship, excuse me, is a "carriage" for its armament. ("A tank is a carriage for a cannon" (S. Grabin).

    Since December 1944, the USSR had possessed a prototype of the American VT-type radio fuze. In November 1945, by decision of the State Defense Committee (GKO), a specialized research institute, GNII-504 (today NPP Impuls), was established, tasked with developing Soviet equivalents. In the early 1950s, the Soviet Army received a full line of the first mass-produced AR-series non-contact radio fuzes.

    And what about the USSR Ministry of Shipbuilding Industry? The USSR Ministry of Shipbuilding Industry built the largest series of large surface ships in Soviet history in the post-war USSR – seventy Project 30-bis destroyers, with... NOT universal 130mm B-2LM guns. The small-caliber anti-aircraft armament of these destroyers was weaker than that of the American Fletcher-class destroyers from June 1943. Curtain call!

    "It seems to me, gentlemen, that this was... a comedy" (C)
    1. 0
      23 July 2026 12: 17
      Quote: AlexanderA
      seventy Project 30-bis destroyers, with.... NOT universal 130 mm AU B-2LM

      Name the universal 130mm mounts that could be installed on the 30-bis destroyers.
      Quote: AlexanderA
      The small-caliber anti-aircraft armament of these destroyers was weaker than that of the American Fletcher-class destroyers from June 1943.

      Not much – 8 37mm and 6 25mm barrels versus 10*40mm and 7*20mm. Considering that the 25mm had almost twice the range of the 20mm, it's more like parity.
      1. +2
        23 July 2026 13: 20
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Name the universal 130mm mounts that could be installed on the 30-bis destroyers.

        The development of the universal 130mm AU (the future SM-2-1) began in the USSR in 1943 (a bit late, isn't it?). The official start of work was a special assignment from the Artillery Research Naval Institute (ANIMI), issued on September 2, 1943. The prototype SM-2-1, after production at Plant No. 232, underwent factory trials from April 5 to May 30, 1949, at the plant, and from October 20 to December 12 of the same year, at the proving ground. State trials of the mount were conducted in two stages: from May 10 to August 5, 1950, and from November 24, 1950 to March 30, 1951. In 1950, Plant No. 232 manufactured two serial SM-2-1 mounts based on the prototype drawings, adjusted based on the results of proving ground tests. The installations were installed on the lead destroyer of Project 41 "Neustrashimy".

        The lead destroyer of Project 30-bis, Smely, was laid down on May 16, 1948, and entered service on December 21, 1949. The date of entry into service was timed to coincide with the birthday of I.V. Stalin.
        Insignificant - 8 37mm barrels and 6 25mm barrels versus 10*40mm and 7*20mm.

        The destroyer Smely was armed with seven 37mm 70-K automatic guns (the twin-gun V-11 guns, commissioned in 1946, somehow never made it onto the destroyer). The 25mm 2M-3 guns were also missing from the Smely at the time of its commissioning.

        In 1949, three prototypes of the AU 2M-3 were manufactured: two for a boat and one for the Rzhev Proving Ground. All of them failed both the proving ground and naval trials, and on December 14, 1949, a decision was made to revise the drawings for a new prototype of the AU 2M-3, with corresponding changes to its specifications. New working drawings for the AU 2M-3 were developed by OKB-43 in February–May 1950. The prototype AU 2M-3 was manufactured at Plant No. 535 in October 1950. This prototype of the AU 2M-3 underwent combined factory and proving ground trials in November–December 1950 and passed them. The commission recommended it for naval trials. That same year, 1950, Plant No. 535 produced three more prototypes of the AU 2M-3 (with the 110-PM automatic gun), which underwent state naval trials on a Project 183 torpedo boat from January 26 to March 5, 1952. The 110-PM automatic gun was noted to be unreliable, along with a number of other shortcomings. The state commission decided that the AU 2M-3 prototype had to be further refined and subjected to repeat state naval trials. These were successfully completed from October 20 to November 5, 1952, with the report approved on November 25, 1952.

        The AU 2M-3 with the 110-PM assault rifle was adopted into service by the Decree of the Council of Ministers of the USSR No. 659-336 of February 27, 1953 and the Order of the USSR Naval Minister N. G. Kuznetsov No. 00159 of March 05, 1953.

        The 2M-3 AU was an intriguing example of "dark genius." Hydraulic aiming and reloading drives, yet for some reason the first production 110-PM assault rifles used a clip-fed system. It's no wonder it took so long to get this AU to a working condition.

        This is despite the fact that back in 1944, Factory No. 88 developed and tested the 25mm Z-1 twin mount, with two oscillating parts from the 84-KM and manual guidance (in tests, the vertical guidance speed was 23 degrees per second, and the horizontal guidance speed was 48 degrees per second). The Z-1 was never accepted into service and never entered serial production.

        The maximum slant firing range of the 2M-3 against airborne guns was ~3000-3100 m, and was limited by the self-destruct fuses of the B-23, B-23U, A-23 25 mm OZ-85/OZ-85M projectiles.

        The effective slant firing range of the 20mm Oerlikon AU is usually estimated at 2500 m, and the altitude reach is up to 3000 m.

        So, regarding the parity of the lead destroyer of the Project 30-bis "Smely" in small-caliber anti-aircraft fire with the "Fletchers" from the summer of 1943 - well, that's just hooray-patniotic!

        And yes, the serial 25mm AU 2M-3 is far from the main domestic "soft spot" in this caliber. For Project 82 heavy cruisers and destroyers, 25mm quadruple automatic mounts BL-120-I and BL-120-II were developed, differing in their power supply systems (DC and AC). The first two mounts were manufactured at Plant No. 535 in 1950. The mounts have electrohydraulic aiming drives, and the ammunition feed... A CLIP! Barrel cooling is AIR-cooled! The forward firing rate is 30 degrees per second. The forward firing rate is 40 degrees per second. The deck-turret mount weighs 4 tons. laughing

        In 1953, the BL-120-I and BL-120-II mounts were redesignated 4M-120-I and 4M-120-II. In 1954, two 4M-120-I mounts were installed on the Project 41 Neustrashimy destroyer for state trials. A few years later, both mounts were removed and replaced with 45mm SM-20-ZIF guns. The 4M-120 mounts never entered serial production.
        1. 0
          23 July 2026 13: 44
          Quote: AlexanderA
          The development of a universal 130 mm AU (the future SM-2-1) began in the USSR in 1943 (a bit late, isn't it?)

          You "forgot" about the B-2-U, the design of which was completed on December 26, 1939. But this work was stopped due to the Great Patriotic War at the stage of assembling the pilot plant.
          Everything else you wrote about 130mm artillery speaks to one thing: the USSR had a choice: build ships with outdated artillery or not build them at all. Fortunately, there were no people like you in the country's leadership, so they built what they could.
          As for the 25mm, you are here as always - you are asked one question, and you are trying to answer a completely different one.
          1. +3
            23 July 2026 15: 53
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Everything else you wrote about 130mm artillery speaks to one thing: the USSR had a choice: build ships with outdated artillery or not build them at all. Fortunately, there were no people like you in the country's leadership, so they built what they could.

            There was also the option of building ships with reserves for rapid modernization, so that these ships could be upgraded later and not serve to the end with outdated weapons. But this is NOT a domestic choice.

            "Despite the rather active intentions of the USSR Navy to modernize the Project 30-bis ships, which took place in the mid-1950s, this was never accomplished for various reasons. Therefore, not counting the modernization of eight ships of the Project 31 series and two of the Project 30BA, all the rest served out their life practically in their original form." "Marine Collection" No. 7, 2014 "Destroyers of Project 30-bis Part 2" p. 32

            Our choice is to mass-produce ships that are obsolete even in the design stage. It's common practice to later admit that these ships lack modernization potential and continue to operate them for decades "as is." In peacetime, that's fine. In wartime, defeat is inevitable "for technical reasons." The Soviet Navy was lucky after 1945. It didn't participate in any wars. It could safely maintain its now-traditional technical unpreparedness for modern warfare.
            You "forgot" about the B-2-U, the design of which was completed on December 26, 1939. But this work was stopped due to the Great Patriotic War at the stage of assembling the pilot plant.

            It's also traditional for us, for one reason or another, sometimes even objective, to "suspend work" on the next promising weapon model, and then "forget" to resume it. Since the B-2-U never existed as a finished technical prototype, I didn't mention it. But since you remembered... The design gross weight of the B-2-U is 48,4 tons. The gross weight of the B-2LM is 49 tons. The gross weight of the SM-2-1 is 52,325 tons. That's basically it. Project 30-bis didn't have the modernization potential to install the SM-2-1 gun. And the promising SM-62 gun, designed to the same weight and dimensions as the SM-2-1 in 1955, also never made it anywhere, neither to the Project 56 nor the Project 57 destroyers. They "suspend" and forgot about it. The next time the USSR remembered the 130mm gun was in the 1970s. The total weight of the AK-130 gun with its automated ammunition magazine is 138 tons. Plus the Lev-218 self-propelled air defense system weighs 12 tons, 8 tons of which is the radar antenna post. This was the peak of Soviet gigantomania. That's somewhere around 150 tons. If you mounted four A-192M guns on a ship today, it would be much lighter.
            As for the 25mm, you are here as always - you are asked one question, and you are trying to answer a completely different one.

            What about 25mm? Should I compare the Mark 14 gyroscopic anti-aircraft sight with automatic lead detection, which was delivered to US Navy ships in 1942 and used with the infamous 20mm Oerlikon guns since that same year, with the KMT-25 collimator ring sight for the 2M-3 mount, or are you suggesting it yourself?

            You know that the Japanese had optical gun sights in 1904, while we only had mechanical ones. But you apparently haven't inquired about how the Russian Navy continued to successfully reduce the effectiveness of naval gunfire much later. In vain. The devil is always in the details. Details that have long been of no interest to the Russian Navy's leadership.
            1. +2
              23 July 2026 16: 11
              Quote: AlexanderA
              There was also a choice to build ships with reserves for rapid modernization,

              Only in your fantasies, alas. Those same 30-bis class submarines were truly outdated in many respects, artillery being just one of them. And their modernization was not practical—the money that should have been spent on it would have been better spent building modern warships with modern armament. And they fulfilled their role as school desks for sailors of the ocean-going nuclear-missile fleet.
              1. +4
                23 July 2026 18: 50
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Those same 30-bis were truly outdated ships in many respects, artillery being just one of them. And modernizing them wasn't practical—the money that should have been spent on it would have been better spent building modern warships with modern armament.

                After all, the USSR was destroyed by "ideologically impeccable" mismanagement, when enormous resources were "buried in the ground" to satisfy group/departmental interests, or, as in the case of the Project 30-bis destroyers, "drowned at sea" by building a series of 70 destroyers with non-universal main battery artillery. In the event of a war with the US and NATO, these destroyers would have been destroyed in huge numbers by enemy carrier-based attack aircraft, with minimal losses to enemy aircraft.

                If we assume that these destroyers were commissioned into the Navy not in anticipation of an imminent war, but as "school desks," then from the standpoint of national interests, there was even less sense in "rushing the plan to the wall" in a "come on, come on" manner. But the short-term "corporate" interests of the Navy and the short-term "corporate" interests of the Ministry of Shipbuilding Industry, in such a "socialist" manner, demanded precisely the increase in "gross production plans" at the expense of the qualitative, combat-oriented, characteristics of these "products."

                And "then we'll replace them with modern ones"? Well, some of the Project 30-bis destroyers served as combat ships until the second half of the 1980s.

                https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Совершенный_(эсминец,_1952)

                The Soviet Navy did not like to "change to modern ones," but rather to increase its numbers by any means necessary.
                1. 0
                  23 July 2026 20: 09
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  In the event of a war with the US and NATO, these destroyers would be destroyed in huge numbers by enemy carrier-based attack aircraft with minimal losses to enemy aircraft.

                  You won't believe it, but in the event of a war, the 30-bis with universal turrets would have been destroyed by air strikes with minimal enemy losses. They would have just been a little taller.
                  1. +4
                    23 July 2026 21: 55
                    "When repelling an attack by A-1 Skyraider piston-engine attack aircraft, a Project 56 destroyer has a combat effectiveness 5-6 times greater than a Project 30-bis destroyer. A Project 56 destroyer is guaranteed to disrupt an attack by a single aircraft or a pair, while a Project 30-bis has a high probability of sustaining critical damage due to the technical inferiority of its air defense systems.

                    [...]

                    Calculations show that the Project 56 destroyer is completely protected from single attacks by A-1 Skyraider attack aircraft, destroying their targets at a safe distance. The Project 30-bis destroyer has an outdated air defense system that is incapable of providing the required density and accuracy of fire, which would lead to a high probability of the attack aircraft reaching the bomb release point.

                    When repelling an A-4 Skyhawk jet attack, the gap in combat effectiveness between the ships becomes catastrophic. The Project 56 destroyer maintains its high effectiveness thanks to its automated radar gun guidance, while the Project 30-bis is virtually defenseless and unable to prevent the precise bombing.

                    Probability of destroying a jet air target.
                    A Project 30-bis destroyer. The ship is unable to defend itself. An A-4 attack aircraft approaches the bomb release point unhindered.
                    Project 56 destroyer. The overall probability of destroying a single A-5 attack aircraft, taking into account preliminary shelling from 130mm guns, is 75-80%. Tactical result: The destroyer has a high probability of destroying a single attack aircraft or knocking it off course, disrupting targeted bombing.

                    [...]

                    To disable a ship (cause severe damage that deprives it of combat capability), it is necessary to achieve at least 2-3 hits from bombs of 227-454 kg (500-1000 lb) caliber.
                    Taking into account the previously calculated air defense effectiveness, calculation of the required force (number of aircraft) of A-1 Skyraider attack aircraft to guarantee the ship's incapacitation with a probability of at least 80–90%.
                    A single flight of four A-1 Skyraider attack aircraft is sufficient to disable a Project 30-bis destroyer. Expected aircraft losses: one aircraft may be damaged, with a 30% chance of permanent loss.
                    To disable a Project 56 destroyer, a squadron of 12 A-1 Skyraider attack aircraft (3 flights of 4 aircraft) attacking in a coordinated manner from different directions is required.
                    Expected aircraft losses: The ship's air defense will have time to destroy or critically damage 3 to 5 attack aircraft before the fire density drops or the ship receives its first hits.
                    To disable a Project 30-bis destroyer, an American Essex- or Midway-class aircraft carrier would need to launch a minimal tactical unit—a flight of four A-1 attack aircraft. Attacking a modern Project 56 destroyer would require an entire squadron of 12 aircraft, knowingly incurring high losses to hit the target.

                    [...]

                    A pair of A-4 Skyhawk attack aircraft were sufficient to disable a Project 30-bis destroyer (2-3 hits). Expected air losses: 0 aircraft. The ship's air defenses would have been able to inflict only incidental shrapnel damage during barrage fire.
                    To disable a Project 56 destroyer, 4-6 A-4 Skyhawk attack aircraft were needed, attacking simultaneously from two different directions (two pairs or two trios). Expected aircraft losses: 1 aircraft. The Project 56 destroyer's air defenses will manage to lock on to the escort and destroy the leading aircraft of one of the groups, but the remaining 3-5 attack aircraft will reach the bomb release point unhindered."
                    They would just be a little bit taller.

                    Here a little bit higher, there a little bit higher, and now the operation is not going as previously planned, with a different, more optimistic assessment of the “friction of war.”

                    But for your confidence, as a graduate of the US Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland, that no amount of qualitative reinforcement would have helped the Soviets even bring the war at sea to a state of mutual exhaustion, one can only be proud of you.

                    O beautiful for spacious skies,
                    For amber waves of grain,
                    For purple mountain majesties
                    Above the fruited plain!
                    America! America!
                    God shed His grace on you,
                    And crown thy good with brotherhood
                    From sea to shining sea!

                    Well, etc. laughing
                    1. +1
                      23 July 2026 22: 15
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      Calculations show that the Project 56 destroyer is fully protected from single attacks by A-1 Skyraider attack aircraft, destroying the target at a safe distance.

                      The British thought so too: that radars, automatic SAM systems, and modern guns with modern fire control systems could repel air attacks. Alas, the Falkands proved they couldn't. Although the layered defense of the Sea Dart and Sea Wolf SAMs was considered impenetrable and reliable.
                      The Argentines showed that the English were wrong. And that those same
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      A-4 Skyhawk.

                      They break through the order very well - with free-falling ones.
                      What's even more unfortunate for the calculations you've provided is the presence of guided weapons on American aircraft, which appeared on them back in WWII—the ASM-N-2 Bat. And in the 50s, the AGM-12 Bullpup also appeared.
                      In general, it's important to study such calculations. But it's even more important to understand the cost of these calculations. Yes
                      1. +3
                        24 July 2026 02: 20
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The British thought so too: that radars, automatic SAM systems, and modern guns with modern fire control systems could repel air attacks. Alas, the Falkands proved they couldn't. Although the layered defense of the Sea Dart and Sea Wolf SAMs was considered impenetrable and reliable.

                        During the 1982 Falklands War, anti-aircraft guns from British ships shot down 21 Argentine aircraft, according to official Royal Navy figures. Several independent researchers and the Argentine side confirm the destruction of 15 to 18 aircraft by the ships, attributing the remaining losses to maneuvering near water, ground fire, or technical malfunctions.

                        Distribution of victories by naval anti-aircraft systems:

                        Sea Dart SAM system – 8 aircraft. This long-range system (installed on Type 42 destroyers) has proven to be the most effective area air defense system.

                        Sea Wolf SAM system — 3-5 aircraft. The short-range system (on Type 22 frigates) intercepted low-flying attack aircraft as they approached the ships.

                        Sea Cat SAM system – 6 aircraft (according to British claims). An obsolete, short-range system. The actual number of hits is disputed by historians, who estimate the success of this SAM system at 2-3 destroyed targets.

                        Naval artillery (4,5-inch guns, 20-mm Oerlikon cannons and machine guns) - 2 aircraft.

                        I won't be revealing anything new if I point out that the British arrived at war with outdated naval air defense systems. British ships didn't carry a single small-caliber AIR defense system developed in the 1970s. After the war, the Royal Navy began purchasing the Vulcan Phalanx and Goalkeeper AIR defense systems.

                        Barrel-based air defense is generally effective against masthead bombing, provided reaction time allows. It was masthead bombing that cost the Argentine Air Force the Royal Navy the most.

                        The Argentine Air Force's Exocet anti-ship missiles were frankly inadequate. The Argentine Air Force had only five missiles, and they all were used. Two hits resulted in two catastrophic fires and subsequent sinkings: the guided-missile destroyer Sheffield and the container ship Atlantic Conveyor, converted into an auxiliary airlift. Three anti-ship missiles were missed. Another MM38 missile was launched from a converted shore-based naval launcher. The guided-missile destroyer Glamorgan was hit. Fourteen sailors were killed and the ship sustained serious damage, but it remained afloat. This aging County-class destroyer lacked an aluminum alloy superstructure.

                        So, Argentine aircraft sank four British ships and one landing craft with free-fall bombs, and damaged another dozen ships with bombs, their fragments, and aircraft cannon fire. This is all because the British ships lacked modern small-caliber anti-aircraft guns with their reaction time of 3,5-5 seconds.
                        In general, it's important to study such calculations. But it's even more important to understand the cost of these calculations.

                        In approximately three to four dozen cases of combat use of ASM-N-2 Bat guided homing aerial bombs, no more than six hits were achieved.

                        Throughout its long career, the AGM-12 has never been successfully used against a warship. Apparently, manually aiming the missile at a target under fire using the Manual Command Line of Sight (MCLOS) was difficult. And yes, the GAM-83A, also known as Bullpup A, was deemed "useless" in Vietnam and retired after just a few combat missions. The missile only received the designation AGM-12 in 1963.

                        If you find even one warship sunk or seriously damaged by an AGM-12 missile... I'll provide some calculations involving Bullpup missiles.
                      2. 0
                        24 July 2026 08: 07
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        During the 1982 Falklands War, anti-aircraft guns from British ships shot down 21 Argentine aircraft, according to official Royal Navy figures.

                        In reality, anti-aircraft missile systems and artillery shot down 7 Argentine aircraft.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        In approximately three to four dozen cases of combat use of ASM-N-2 Bat guided homing aerial bombs, no more than six hits were achieved.

                        Calculate the average number of classic free-fall bombs that hit a ship.
                      3. +3
                        24 July 2026 12: 42
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In reality, anti-aircraft missile systems and artillery shot down 7 Argentine aircraft.

                        You write as an eyewitness. wink

                        https://www.naval-history.net/F64argaircraftlost.htm

                        Sunday, May 9

                        Two A-4C Skyhawks of FAA Grupo 4 lost. Possibly damaged by Sea Darts from HMS Coventry or crashed in bad weather, with one aircraft found on South Jason Island. Lt Casco and Lt Farias killed.
                        Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 shot down over Choiseul Sound by Sea Dart fired by HMS Coventry (4.10 pm). Crew of three lost.

                        Wednesday 12th May

                        Two A-4B Skyhawks of FAA Grupo 5 shot down off Stanley by Sea Wolf fired by HMS Brilliant and third aircraft hit sea trying to evade missile (1.45 pm). All three pilots, Lt Bustos, Lt Ibarlucea and Lt Nivoli killed.

                        Friday, May 21st

                        Dagger A of FAA Grupo 6 shot down near Fanning Head by Sea Cat fired by HMS Argonaut or Plymouth, or more likely Sea Wolf from HMS Broadsword (10.30 am). Lt Bean killed.
                        A-4Q Skyhawk of CANA 3 Esc damaged over Falkland Sound by small arms fire from HMS Ardent and again in the same incident as above by Lt Morrell using 30mm cannon. Unable to land at Stanley with undercarriage problems and Lt Arca ejected (3.30 pm).

                        Sunday, May 23

                        A-4B Skyhawk of FAA Grupo 5 shot down over San Carlos Water by unknown SAM (1.50 pm). Claims that day include "Broadsword" Sea Wolf, "Antelope" Sea Cat, and land-based Rapiers and Blowpipe. Lt Guadagnini killed.

                        Monday, May 24

                        A-4C Skyhawk of FAA Grupo 4 damaged over San Carlos Water by ship and ground-based air defenses and crashed into King George Bay, West Falkland on flight home (1.30 pm). Claims that day include "Argonaut" and "Fearless" Sea Cat, and Rapier and Blowpipe SAM's. Lt Bono lost.

                        Tuesday, May 25

                        A-4B Skyhawk of FAA Grupo 5 shot down north of Pebble Island by Sea Dart fired by HMS Coventry (9.30 am). Lt Palaver killed.
                        A-4C Skyhawk of FAA Grupo 4 destroyed over San Carlos Water by a variety of weapons, claims including small arms fire, "Yarmouth" Sea Cat, and Rapier and Blowpipe SAM's (12.30 pm). Lt Lucero ejected.
                        A-4C Skyhawk of FAA Grupo 4 damaged over San Carlos Water in the same attack, and then brought down north east of Pebble Island by Sea Dart fired by HMS Coventry (12.45 am). Lt Garcia killed.

                        Thursday, May 27

                        A-4B Skyhawk of FAA Grupo 5 damaged over San Carlos Water by 40mm Bofors from HMS Fearless or Intrepid, and crashed near Port Howard (5.00 pm). Lt Velasco ejected.

                        Sunday, May 30

                        Two A-4C Skyhawks of FAA Grupo 4 shot down east of Falklands by Sea Darts fired by HMS Exeter, although 4.5 inch gunfire from HMS Avenger may have hit one (2.35 pm). Lt Vazquez and Lt Castillo killed.

                        Monday, June 7

                        Learjet 35A of FAA Photo-Reconnaissance Grupo 1 shot down over Pebble Island by Sea Dart fired by HMS Exeter (9.05 am). Wing Cmdr de la Colina and crew of four killed.

                        Sunday, June 13

                        Canberra B.62 of FAA Grupo 2 shot down west of Stanley by Sea Dart fired by HMS Exeter (10.55 pm). Pilot, Capt Pastran ejected safely but Capt Casado is killed.

                        17 aircraft and 1 helicopter
                        Calculate the average number of classic free-fall bombs that hit a ship.

                        It wasn't calculated "on average," but rather, as the esteemed O.V. Rastrenin liked to write in his books: "Calculations show that a pilot with good flight, gunnery, and bombing training, under real combat conditions, could already ensure..."

                        In 1945, the ASM-N-2 Bat demonstrated no greater hit probability than a well-trained pilot during dive bombing or masthead bombing. Tests conducted in 1948 demonstrated the bomb's seeker's poor resistance to jamming. The ASM-N-2 Bat was retired from service in 1953.

                        After which, until the official acceptance of the ASM-N-7 Bullpup A into service with the US Navy on April 25, 1959, American carrier-based aviation remained without guided weapons suitable for use against BNCs.

                        The US Air Force adopted the missile as the GAM-83A, but abandoned it after its first use in Vietnam.

                        In general, before the ASM-N-7A Bullpup B was adopted into service by the US Air Force in 1964 (in 1963, as part of the interagency work to unify the designations of weapons systems, the renamed AGM-12B), all this was not serious.

                        And yes, the AGM-12B, over 22 thousand of them were produced before 1970.

                        https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/agm-12-variants.htm

                        The US Air Force's AGM-12B missile was equipped with an advanced guidance system that eliminated the need for the pilot to keep the target in sight, allowing it to attack targets outside the carrier's flight path.
                      4. -1
                        24 July 2026 13: 40
                        Do you like English-language Murzilkas? :))))
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Sunday, May 9

                        Two A-4C Skyhawks of FAA Grupo 4 lost. Possibly damaged by Sea Darts from HMS Coventry or crashed in bad weather, with one aircraft found on South Jason Island. Lt Casco and Lt Farias killed.
                        Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 shot down over Choiseul Sound by Sea Dart fired by HMS Coventry (4.10 pm). Crew of three lost.

                        True, Woodward claims that both SeaDart missiles fired at the Argentine aircraft missed their targets. But who is some Falklands fleet commander in the eyes of such authority?
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        https://www.naval-history.net/F64argaircraftlost.htm
                      5. +2
                        24 July 2026 15: 28
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Do you like English-language Murzilkas? :))))

                        In Russian-language murzilkas, the 1982 Falklands War is covered using English-language sources. I prefer primary sources.
                        True, Woodward claims that both SeaDart missiles fired at the Argentine aircraft missed their targets. But who is some Falklands fleet commander in the eyes of such authority?

                        Apparently, Woodward personally observed with eagle eyes the flight of two SAMs that flew dozens of kilometers from the ships and missed. In any case, the launches took place in bad weather conditions, and the Argentine air force lost both aircraft.

                        Yes, regarding the attack on a Project 56 destroyer during the day in good visibility conditions by four A-4 Skyhawks carrying two AGM-12B missiles each.

                        In the case of a careless destroyer crew, acting in the same way as the crew of the Stark guided missile frigate, except perhaps tracking an approaching group of air targets with weapons and opening fire at the beginning of a missile attack, the probability of successfully disabling a Project 56 destroyer is estimated to be high (about 75-85%), while the expected losses of attacking aircraft are from 0 to 1 unit (the probability of loss is about 15-20%).

                        However, in the case of a destroyer crew aware of the enemy's and their own ship's capabilities, whose commander would order a smoke screen to be laid in advance, to open anti-aircraft fire from a 130 mm gun in time, and to turn away from the group of attack aircraft behind the smoke screen as the group approached the missile attack line:

                        "The skillful actions of the Project 56 destroyer commander (a well-timed smoke screen, turning the stern behind the smoke screen, and firing early) radically changed the course of the battle. They deprived the attack aircraft of their main advantage—a safe launch range. By forcing the A-4 to skirt the smoke screen and enter the kill zone of the 45mm machine guns, the ship reduced the probability of a serious hit to 35% and guaranteed losses to the enemy air group."

                        In the case of simultaneous jamming of the missile control radio channels (and the AGM-12’s radio channel had practically no resistance to jamming):

                        "The use of electronic countermeasures (ECM) by a destroyer deals a devastating blow to the offensive potential of a group of A-4 Skyhawks armed with AGM-12B missiles. The use of electronic warfare systems reduces the probability of successfully disabling a Project 56 destroyer to near zero (less than 2%), making this attack a guaranteed failure.

                        The radio command link (the AN/ARW-73 system on the A-4 and the AN/ARW-77 receiver on the AGM-12B Bullpup missile) was developed in the 1950s and lacked jamming resistance. The signal encoding was extremely primitive, and the frequency channels were fixed. Soviet naval jammers (such as the Krab or MP-150) were capable of overloading the missile receivers with a barrage of noise at ranges of several kilometers.

                        "An attempt to attack a Project 56 destroyer with four A-4 Skyhawk attack aircraft armed with AGM-12B Bullpup missiles while the ship is operating according to combat regulations (preliminary barrage fire, laying a smoke screen, escaping behind the smoke cloud while minimizing the angle of attack, and setting up electronic jamming) would result in the complete destruction of the air group. The Bullpup missiles proved completely ineffective in penetrating the ship's organized defenses. To successfully defeat such a destroyer, American aircraft would have to change their armament: employ low-altitude masthead bombing tactics with conventional bombs, employ AGM-45 Shrike anti-radar missiles to disable the ship's radar, or employ heavy AGM-62 Walleye television missiles (uninhibited by radio interference)."


                        A curtain.

                        "He who knows his enemy and knows himself will not be in danger even in a hundred battles." Sun tzu
                      6. 0
                        24 July 2026 16: 48
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Apparently Woodward personally, with eagle eyesight, observed the flight of two SAMs that flew several tens of kilometers away from the ships and missed?

                        So you don't know that
                        1) Targets were captured at the limit of range
                        2) Immediately after the missile salvo, the Argi turned away and left the SAM's range.
                        3) The commander of the Coventry, who recorded all of this using radar data (without target illumination, the Sea Dart SAM cannot be guided) reported that the targets were not hit.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        I prefer primary sources.

                        You prefer Murzilkas rather than the original sources.
                      7. +2
                        24 July 2026 20: 10
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        So you don't know that
                        1) Targets were captured at the limit of range
                        2) Immediately after the missile salvo, the Argi turned away and left the SAM's range.

                        I know that two A-4Cs fired upon by Sea Darts from the guided missile destroyer USS Coventry did not return. The wreckage of the aircraft was found on South Jason Island. Both pilots were killed. I know that destroyer Commander David Hart Dyke stated that the A-4Cs were damaged by Sea Dart anti-aircraft missiles fired from his destroyer. Did you conduct a seance with the spirits of the pilots and learn that they evaded the SAMs and their aircraft were not damaged by the attack?
                        3) The commander of the Coventry, who recorded all of this using radar data (without target illumination, the Sea Dart SAM cannot be guided) reported that the targets were not hit.


                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Coventry_(D118)

                        Coventry's captain, David Hart Dyke, claimed that two A-4C Skyhawks of Grupo 4 were shot down by Sea Darts (C-303 and C-313).

                        Let's look for the book Hart Dyke, David (2007). Four Weeks in May: The Loss of "HMS Coventry". Atlantic Books?
                        You prefer Murzilkas rather than the original sources.

                        I'm waiting for a scan of a page from David Hart Dyke's book with the phrase "targets not hit" in English. wink
                      8. +3
                        24 July 2026 22: 26
                        https://www.hmscoventry.co.uk/d118/falklands/

                        "As for two of the four A-4s that took off to sink the two ships, they did not return home. The Argentines later reported the loss of two A-4s that day (C-303 and C-313, piloted by Lieutenant Jorge Farias and Lieutenant Jorge Casco). After the war, the wreckage of the C-313, the body of pilot Lieutenant Jorge Casco, and a 450-pound bomb from his aircraft were found on South Jason Island (55 miles west of Pebble Island) by a Wasp helicopter from HMS Hecate. Apparently, the A-4 crashed into a ridge and then into a cliff on the northwest side of the island, heading west-southwest, that is, back towards Argentina. A few more meters to the left or right and it would have missed the island.

                        It's entirely possible that this pair of A-4s were indeed fired upon by the Coventry and turned away, abandoning their mission, but what exactly happened during the engagement remains a mystery. Of the two detected targets, the one that descended to the west and disappeared from radar north of Pebble Island, if continued westward, matches the suspected crash site of the C-313. It's possible the aircraft was damaged, but it's more likely that Lieutenant Casco was simply unlucky: he was flying home at low altitude in poor visibility and crashed into the island without even realizing anyone was there. It's odd that he retained the bomb—perhaps the damage sustained during the near-miss with the Sea Dart had caused the release mechanism to malfunction, or did he believe he had enough fuel to make it home with the bomb still on board?

                        As for his wingman, it's possible the plane, which landed south of the Falkland Sound, was damaged by a Sea Dart missile, or perhaps not. But neither Lieutenant Farias nor the C-303 were ever found, and we'll likely never know for sure.

                        Argentine sources report that a pair of Learjets from their Phoenix Squadron were on a reconnaissance mission that day and were targeted by Sea Dart missiles. The time and location (over Teal Bay) match the first pair of missiles, but the third Learjets that reported a close Sea Dart pass claimed to be well east of Port Stanley, which simply doesn't add up.
                      9. +3
                        24 July 2026 23: 33
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

                        True, Woodward claims that both SeaDart missiles fired at the Argentine aircraft missed their targets. But who is some Falklands fleet commander in the eyes of such authority?

                        Woodward made no such claim.

                        https://samojlov.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/vudvord_folklendskaya-voyna-memuary-komanduyushchego-folklendskoy-udarnoy-gruppoy_rulit_me_552620.pdf

                        Стр. 236

                        Dear Andrey, you've made too many erroneous statements on this trivial, completely irrelevant issue. You're like an eyewitness; every one of your assertions needs to be verified. Verification shows that your assertions are often incorrect.
                      10. The comment was deleted.
                      11. -1
                        25 July 2026 05: 41
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Woodward made no such claim.

                        I claimed it. You just don't like it, and you ignore everything you don't like.
                      12. +1
                        25 July 2026 08: 04
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Claimed.

                        I cited Woodworth's assertion with a link to the book page. Your alternate reality is very alternate.
                      13. +1
                        25 July 2026 08: 20
                        In your reality, there's only Woodworth, who believed that "the missiles missed their target" that day. But there's no later Woodworth, who, while writing his book, already knew that two Argentine Skyhawks hadn't returned to their airfields and wrote: "Years later, it turned out that such an exchange (about the 'whites of the eyes') between David and me was perhaps unnecessary. Some Argentine sources admitted that two of their planes... didn't return home. Could it be that the Coventry shot them down?"

                        In your reality, there's only the Woodworth of May 9, 1982, the reality you prefer, but there's no later, more informed Woodworth. Just as there's no such thing as the guided missile squadron commander, David Hart Dyke, who wrote in his memoir that two A-4C Skyhawks of Group 4 were shot down by Sea Darts.

                        So: “Everything you don’t like, you ignore” - this is how you characterize yourself.
                      14. -1
                        25 July 2026 09: 10
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        In your reality, there is only the Woodworth of May 9, 1982, the reality you like, but there is no later, more informed Woodworth.

                        You see, you managed to write here
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        I cited Woodworth's assertion with a link to the book page. Your alternate reality is very alternate.

                        So you haven't even read Woodward. You skimmed through it, found a quote you liked, and then ran off to show me how wrong I am.
                        It's very funny to watch how you declare page 236 of Woodward's book to be the ultimate truth, and page 234 of his book to be an alternative reality:)))))
                        That's the first point. And the second point—the book makes it clear—is that Coventry didn't think he'd hit the target for the reasons I described above. It was only the appearance of SOME (do you know what "some" means? It means "not all") sources that led Woodward to suggest that Coventry might have been mistaken after all.
                        That is, Woodward, when he wrote his book, believed that the planes were not shot down, but he allowed for the possibility that he was wrong.
                        For you, this turned into confirmation that the planes were shot down. wassat
                      15. 0
                        26 July 2026 13: 34
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It's very funny to watch how you declare page 236 of Woodward's book to be the ultimate truth, and page 234 of his book to be an alternative reality:)))))

                        Kolobov laughing laughing Kolobov!!! Can you even hear yourself? laughing You didn't read your own source, out of laziness and incompetence. If two planes were found crashed on the island, bearing traces of missile impacts, then FIRSTLY, they are definitely and are considered lost by Argentina in combat (and the discussion was about Argentina's losses), and secondly, the author of the source himself admits that the planes were shot down (hit and later crashed on the island). Why are you so stubborn about your own stupidity? And why are you being rude to a reasoned and professional interlocutor again? Maybe it's time to see a psychiatrist?
                        And yes, I'm waiting about the AWACS. Yes I'm very interested. bully
                      16. -1
                        26 July 2026 19: 45
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        So you didn't even read Woodward. You skimmed through it, found a quote you liked, and then rushed off to show me how wrong I was.

                        You often draw erroneous conclusions. You're wrong about what I read just now. So, Admiral Woodward told the reader in the book that at the time he thought the Sea Dart missiles had missed, but a couple of pages later he revealed that when he wrote the book, he already knew the Skyhawks hadn't returned from their sortie, and so he asked the reader a rhetorical question: "Did the Coventry really shoot them down?"
                        It was only the emergence of SOME (do you know what "some" means? It means "not all") sources that led Woodward to suggest that there might have been a mistake about Coventry after all.

                        The facts are that the Skyhawks with tail numbers C-303 and C-313, not "according to some Argentine sources", but according to all sources, did not return from their combat mission that day.

                        Furthermore, the wreckage of one of the Skyhawks was later discovered and examined, revealing a 1000-pound bomb that had failed to detonate during the crash, along with the pilot's skeletal remains. Some sources claim that wreckage from a second aircraft was also found. However, DNA testing in 2008 was conducted on the skeletal remains of only one pilot, Lieutenant Jorge Casco. Only the skeletal remains of Lieutenant Jorge Casco, who flew a combat mission in an A-4C with the tail number C-313, were reburied with honors in 2009. The remains of Lieutenant Jorge Ricardo Farias, who flew an A-4C with the tail number C-303, were never found.

                        Some sources indicate that the A-4C C-313 wreckage was scattered in such a way that it can be assumed that the aircraft struck the ground on South Jason Island while flying from east to west, i.e., returning to the continent and Argentine airfields on the mainland. The fact that the aircraft returned with its bomb undropped suggests that the aircraft suffered combat damage from a British Sea Dart SAM, which caused the bomb release mechanism to fail.

                        According to Spanish-language sources, both aircraft simply crashed during a combat sortie at extremely low altitude in bad weather.

                        The issue is that South Jayston is located approximately 200 km west of Port Stanley, in the area where Lieutenant Casco and Lieutenant Farias were supposed to attack British ships from the coast of East Falkland Island. Therefore, there was no point in the Argentine pilots flying this part of the route when returning after an unsuccessful search at extremely low altitude in conditions of poor visibility.

                        A number of sources indicate that it was not these Skyhawks that were actually fired at by Sea Dart missiles, but rather the Learjet 35A business jets of Phoenix Squadron used for reconnaissance, but a number of sources indicate that the reports of the crews of these aircraft about being fired at by Sea Dart missiles do not match the British descriptions of the location of the air targets fired at.

                        Thus, two historical versions have the right to exist today:

                        1. A Sea Dart SAM from the Coventry guided missile destroyer was fired upon and possibly damaged, followed by the crash of a pair of Skyhawks that failed to return from a combat sortie and were attempting to reach the area from the shore where the Royal Navy ships were shelling Port Stanley.

                        2. The Sea Dart SAMs fired not at the pair of Skyhawks that failed to return from a combat mission that day, but at Learjets that had flown solo reconnaissance missions and returned safely. Both Skyhawks that failed to return crashed simply because they were flying at extremely low altitude in poor weather conditions and crashed, one into island rocks, the other somewhere else, perhaps into the water.

                        Of these two versions, you have only one left: the British Sea Dart SAMs missed, and a pair of undamaged Skyhawks crashed because their pilots were performing a risky flight during WWI in poor visibility conditions and, so to speak, "lost control" in these conditions.

                        You simply deny the other version. Moreover, you cite Admiral Woodworth, who actually informed his reader that on May 9, 1982, he believed the missiles had missed, and later, knowing that a pair of Argentine Skyhawks had failed to return from their combat mission, wrote in his book, "Did the Coventry Really Shoot Them Down?" And the commander of the guided missile destroyer Coventry, David Hart Dyke, who wrote in his book that missiles from his destroyer shot down the pair of Skyhawks.

                        I caught you there. And what do I see? I see your grimaces, your smiley faces, your complete denial of your erroneous assertions, and your attribution to me of the claim that these planes were definitely shot down by British SAMs.
                        For you, this turned into confirmation that the planes were shot down.


                        In fact, I just quoted: "Two A-4C Skyhawks of FAA Grupo 4 lost. Possibly damaged by Sea Darts from HMS Coventry or crashed in bad weather, with one aircraft found on South Jason Island. Lt Casco and Lt Farias killed."

                        Which translates into Russian as: "Two A-4C Skyhawk aircraft from FAA Group 4 were lost.They may have been damaged by Sea Dart missiles. from HMS Coventry or crashed in bad weather, one aircraft was found on South Jason Island. Lieutenants Casco and Farias were killed."

                        That is, I immediately quoted both existing versions of the loss of these Skyhawks and the death of the pilots who piloted them.

                        For some reason, you attributed to me only one of these historical facts, and in the form of a statement, not an assumption, and in an attempt to "refute" something that I did not assert, you began to refer to "authorities", Admiral Woodworth, and the commander of the destroyer "David Hart Dyke", although Woodworth in his book did NOT express confidence that the missiles missed, and Hart Dyke wrote in his book that they were shot down.

                        And this is your standard behavior - to attribute to your interlocutor something that he did not say, to refute the statements you attribute to your interlocutor by citing sources that sometimes state the exact opposite.

                        I've already written to you that you have a very feminine way of arguing. It's roughly the same way wives argue with their husbands. Please be less emotional and more logical in your attempts at debate. Don't attribute things to your interlocutors that they haven't stated, don't try to cite authorities that don't support your opinion on the matter, in particular, don't write: "Woodward claims that both SeaDart missiles fired at Argentine aircraft missed their targets." Particularly because Admiral Woodworth hasn't claimed anything for a long time; he died in 2013. Admiral Woodworth wrote in his memoirs that back then, on May 9, 1982, he believed the missiles missed the Argentine aircraft. Years later, upon learning that the Argentine Skyhawks had failed to return from their combat mission, he began to doubt his certainty on May 9, 1982, and wrote: "Did the Coventry really shoot them down?"

                        And yes, I'm still waiting for you to quote from the book by the commander of the Coventry guided missile destroyer, Hart Dyke, confirming your assertion: "The commander of the Coventry, who recorded all this using radar data... reported that the targets were not hit."

                        Or will there not be such a quote?
                      17. +1
                        26 July 2026 22: 21
                        It's simple.
                        You mentioned the loss of up to 21 Argentine aircraft to ground-based air defense. I stated that there were seven. You provided a rationale for your point of view. I took the very first example of your rationale and demonstrated that it was unreliable because the British didn't believe they shot down those two Skyhawks—that's what Woodward described, the description I quoted to you.
                        You've just churned out a ton of words again, but the point is that none of them proves that these aircraft were shot down by Sea Darts. Accordingly, they can't be counted as losses due to anti-aircraft fire—at best, from your perspective, they could be listed under a separate column, "losses from unexplained causes."
                      18. 0
                        27 July 2026 00: 40
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It's simple.
                        You mentioned the loss of up to 21 Argentine aircraft to ground-based air defense. I reported seven.

                        And when I responded by citing a description of the loss of 17 aircraft and 1 helicopter of the Argentine air force "with the participation" of British naval air defense fire, you, citing the authoritative opinions of Admiral Woodworth and the commander of the Coventry guided missile destroyer, began to dispute only two A-4C Skyhawks, possibly damaged by Sea Dart missiles from the Coventry and not returning from a combat sortie on May 9, 1982?

                        What about the other 15-7 = 8 aircraft, the loss of which from British naval anti-aircraft fire you did not dispute?

                        And it was unfortunate on your part with those two Skyhawks when it turned out that Woodworth, judging by his book, was certain the missiles had only missed them on the day of the incident. And a few years later, when he learned that, according to Argentine sources, that pair of A-4Cs hadn't returned from their combat mission, he was already asking, "Did the Coventry really shoot them down?"

                        Your reference to the opinion of guided missile destroyer commander David Hart Dyke made matters even worse. He didn't ask; he wrote in his book that Sea Dart missiles fired from his destroyer shot down that pair of Skyhawks.

                        Whether these two A-4Cs were damaged by shrapnel from the explosions of two Sea Darts or crashed in perfect condition when the Skyhawk pilots, frightened by the missile attack, turned west at extremely low altitude in poor visibility and "failed to pilot" under these conditions, can no longer be reliably determined. History will forever remember these two Skyhawks as having been hit, perhaps by a Sea Dart SAM, or perhaps having descended too riskily to avoid the SAMs and lost their position during a vigorous turn. As a result, they collided with the South Jason cliffs and crashed (sources differ on the crash site of aircraft number C-303. Some claim the wreckage of C-303 was NOT found, while others claim it was. In any case, the pilot's remains have definitely not been found). But, in your picture of the world there is only one “correct” version, based on an inattentive reading of Admiral Woodworth’s memoirs.

                        And yes, your habit of distorting the statements of historical witnesses you cite to suit your current preferences, forcing you to constantly double-check your claims, is certainly telling. Your words simply cannot be trusted.

                        I await your counterarguments (naturally in your characteristic "distorting" manner) regarding the other 8 Argentine aircraft, the loss of which from British naval air defense fire you dispute.
                      19. +1
                        27 July 2026 08: 07
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        And when I responded by citing a description of the loss of 17 aircraft and 1 helicopter of the Argentine air force "with the participation" of British naval air defense fire, you, citing the authoritative opinions of Admiral Woodworth and the commander of the Coventry guided missile destroyer, began to dispute only two A-4C Skyhawks, possibly damaged by Sea Dart missiles from the Coventry and not returning from a combat sortie on May 9, 1982?

                        Of course. I wanted to show you that your source was inaccurate, and I did. You can analyze the other cases yourself (apparently not, but why should I do it for you?)
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        He didn't ask, he wrote in his book that Sea Dart missiles fired from his destroyer shot down that pair of Skyhawks.

                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        And yes, your manner of distorting the statements of historical witnesses you refer to in the direction that suits you at the moment, forcing you to constantly re-check your statements, is certainly telling.

                        There's no distortion here. There's Woodward's description, and it suggests that at the time of the attack on the Coventry, they didn't think they'd shot down the Argentines. And there's Hart's book, in which he says they did. This means:
                        1) Either Woodward is lying - and that is unlikely.
                        2) Either Hart changed his mind after information about the crash of two planes appeared.
                        But, since there is no reason to believe that these planes fell from Sea Dart (which you yourself admit), then there is no reason to trust Hart’s book.
                        I constantly have to work with contradictions in sources, and filtering out some versions in favor of others is a natural process. In articles, I try to describe this (and even then - not always, otherwise the series would be endless), but in the comments, I do not strive for this.
                      20. +1
                        27 July 2026 08: 07
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        And when I responded by citing a description of the loss of 17 aircraft and 1 helicopter of the Argentine air force "with the participation" of British naval air defense fire, you, citing the authoritative opinions of Admiral Woodworth and the commander of the Coventry guided missile destroyer, began to dispute only two A-4C Skyhawks, possibly damaged by Sea Dart missiles from the Coventry and not returning from a combat sortie on May 9, 1982?

                        Of course. I wanted to show you that your source was inaccurate, and I did. You can analyze the other cases yourself (apparently not, but why should I do it for you?)
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        He didn't ask, he wrote in his book that Sea Dart missiles fired from his destroyer shot down that pair of Skyhawks.

                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        And yes, your manner of distorting the statements of historical witnesses you refer to in the direction that suits you at the moment, forcing you to constantly re-check your statements, is certainly telling.

                        There's no distortion here. There's Woodward's description, and it suggests that at the time of the attack on the Coventry, they didn't think they'd shot down the Argentines. And there's Hart's book, in which he says they did. This means:
                        1) Either Woodward is lying - and that is unlikely.
                        2) Either Hart changed his mind after information about the crash of two planes appeared.
                        But, since there is no reason to believe that these planes fell from Sea Dart (which you yourself admit), then there is no reason to trust Hart’s book.
                        I constantly have to work with contradictions in sources, and filtering out some versions in favor of others is a natural process. In articles, I try to describe this (and even then - not always, otherwise the series would be endless), but in the comments, I do not strive for this.
                      21. 0
                        28 July 2026 22: 08
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Of course. I wanted to show you that your source was inaccurate – and I did.

                        The source I cited regarding this episode informed the reader of both historical versions:

                        1.) "They were possibly damaged by Sea Dart missiles from HMS Coventry (and fell on the way back. The pilot of the same C-313 was unable to get rid of the bomb);
                        2.) "Crashed in bad weather" (i.e., they were NOT damaged by Sea Dart missiles. Simply evading the missiles, they descended to extremely low altitudes, where they crashed in poor visibility on the rocks of South Jason Island, where the wreckage of the A-4C C-313 and the remains of its pilot were later found).

                        What more precise could you possibly get?

                        Perhaps there is some third, or even fourth historical version of this episode that the source I cited forgot to mention?

                        Well, then quote these versions with reference to the sources.

                        A conscientious historian introduces his readers to all historical versions of events whose historical accuracy can no longer be reliably established.

                        But that's not your method, dear Andrey? You only introduce your readers to the versions of historical events you like?

                        Your emotional denial that this couple is A-4C POSSIBLY was shot down by Sea Dart missiles fired from the Coventry, which illustrates your stubborn adherence to only those versions of historical events that you like.

                        You are biased, dear Andrey. A very poor quality for a historian.
                        But, since there is no reason to believe that these planes fell from Sea Dart (which you yourself admit), then there is no reason to trust Hart’s book.

                        An A-4C C-313 piloted by Lieutenant Jorge Farias, while flying at extremely low altitude, struck a rocky ridge on South Jason Island and crashed while flying west, away from the destroyer Coventry, not toward it. The aircraft crashed with a 1000-pound bomb attached, suggesting that the aircraft was damaged because the pilot, after abandoning his attack on British ships and returning to a continental airfield, was unable to jettison the bomb, thereby increasing the range and maneuverability of his attack aircraft.

                        I mentioned this above. So what am I admitting there?
                        I constantly have to work with contradictions in sources, and filtering out some versions in favor of others is a natural process. I try to describe this in my articles (and even then, not always, otherwise the series would be endless).

                        The source I cited regarding this pair of A-4Cs that did not return from a combat mission mentioned both existing historical versions of events - in two lines.

                        Two A-4C Skyhawks of FAA Grupo 4 lost. Possibly damaged by Sea Darts from HMS Coventry or crashed in bad weather

                        Two lines - which contain both historical versions of events - is a whole series, yes.

                        But I'm more interested in the "series" you've unleashed in the comments, citing Admiral Woodworth's DIDN'T believe these aircraft were shot down, or even damaged, by Sea Dart missiles from the Coventry. You forgot to mention that, according to his book, Admiral Woodworth DIDN'T believe this at the time of the events. But a few years later, having learned from Argentine sources that this pair of A-4Cs failed to return from their combat mission, he began to doubt his accuracy at the time of the events and even posed a rhetorical question to readers in his book: "Did the Coventry really shoot them down?"

                        Perhaps you shouldn't decide for your readers which versions of historical events they should know and which they shouldn't, and stop voluntarily or involuntarily imposing on your readers only your only correct opinion?
                      22. 0
                        26 July 2026 13: 23
                        Ignore this upstart's antics; he always acts like a common internet troll in debates. Lacking a military education or even military service experience, this "child of the 90s," a loser "economist" who constantly loses jobs due to his character and professional qualities, torments VO visitors with his... strange, sometimes absurd, and sometimes malicious articles. And he regularly gets rude in the comments when he's accused of errors, inaccuracies, or the stupidity of his own fantasies. Reread the beginning of his article, what he scribbled there about Kuznetsov's "incompetence," his "underestimation of the role of aircraft carriers," and that... wassat ordered "too few aircraft carriers" in the 1945-1955 program. I understand that most people simply skimmed over this part without paying any attention, but that's Kolobov for you. He managed to claim that the main purpose and function of AWACS is... SIGINT, with AWACS being an option. And then he was rude to a forum member who pointed out his stupidity. When I corrected him and demanded an apology to the forum member (he was being really nasty), he started being rude to me. lol while foolishly claiming that he could "easily" prove his heresy. But... he couldn't, and now he's avoiding the answer, and I'm interested. bully Yes, and satisfaction is necessary.
                        I read your dialogue with him with interest and was once again convinced of how easily this canary, losing his arguments but showing utter stubbornness, gets out of it every time and resorts to rudeness and insults.
                        The initial discussion was about the number of Argentine aircraft shot down, but he simply didn't read the source he cited, and even after being convinced of his own inaccuracy, he stubbornly insists on his already proven heresy and starts grimacing like a buffoon. That's just Kolobov. That's why he's unemployed. That's why his articles are increasingly boring and untalented—for him, it's simply a way to earn extra money due to the lack of work in his field. Which, by the way, is "not really a field at all," according to his own assertion, which is certainly true in his case.
                        And the materials you provided are really interesting for refreshing my memory. hi
                      23. +1
                        26 July 2026 13: 38
                        And yes, this troll has a small "support group", so don't be surprised by the downvotes.
      2. MSN
        +2
        23 July 2026 15: 53
        Considering that the Bofors has a 1,5 times greater effective firing range, a more powerful shell, and primary fire control via the Mk 51 director, while since 45, the Fletchers have been equipped with quadruple Bofors and a guidance radar, it's impossible to talk about parity. They are weaker.
        1. 0
          23 July 2026 16: 05
          Quote: MSN
          Considering that the Bofors has an effective firing range that is 1,5 times greater and the projectile is more powerful,

          In 1940, comparative tests of the Bofors and 61-K were conducted in the USSR, and based on the results, the commission noted the approximate equivalence of the weapons.
          Quote: MSN
          and the main fire control is via the Mk 51 director

          Here we need to compare it with what was on ours
          1. MSN
            +2
            23 July 2026 17: 28
            Here we need to compare it with what was on ours

            For the 85mm MPUAZO "Soyuz-30bis", but for the 37mm - nothing. Local guidance. AZP 37.
            1. +2
              23 July 2026 18: 49
              Quote: MSN
              and for 37 mm - nothing. Local guidance.

              But here we need to look at the concept that the Red Sea soldiers professed.
              There are Americans who used centralized control of the small anti-aircraft guns, and there are Germans who played with centralized control and returned to individual targeting of the installations.
              1. MSN
                +1
                23 July 2026 19: 48
                It's not a matter of concept. It's not the main caliber. It's more straightforward. Each Bofors mount had its own director. There were several modifications of the Mk 51 and 57. It was a device that automatically calculated the impact point of the projectile and the target and automatically aimed the mount at that point. The same Mk 51 or, later, a fire control radar. One director could control fire either individually for its own gun or centrally. The Soviet 37mm gun had an AZP 37-1 sight, which manually set the target speed, pitch angle, and bearing angle, and all this data was determined by the mount commander by eye. Only the range was determined by a rangefinder. As you can imagine, success depended entirely on the experience and knowledge of each mount commander. And a lot of luck.
            2. 0
              23 July 2026 19: 11
              Quote: MSN
              For 85 mm MPUAZO "Soyuz-30bis", but for 37 mm - nothing.

              I'm not sure about this, since our MZA was "clung" to the MPUAZO ZKDB
              1. +3
                23 July 2026 19: 31
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                since our MZA was "clung" to the MPUAZO ZKDB

                The MPUAZO Soyuz-30-bis only worked on 85 mm.
                The quadruple 46-K should have been linked to the MPUAZO
              2. MSN
                +1
                23 July 2026 20: 07
                I don't know how, but the Soyuz-30bis MPUAZO operated in a single plane, and therefore wasn't effective against dive bombers. How could that help the 37 caliber?
                1. +3
                  23 July 2026 20: 29
                  Quote: MSN
                  I don’t know how, but the Soyuz-30bis MPUAZO worked in one plane, and therefore did not work on dive bombers.

                  It is likely that the specifications prescribed for her were for conventional anti-aircraft barrage fire at high altitude/long range.
                  That is, the classic tasks of the ZADB, plus, probably, they also decided not to complicate things for the EM.
      3. +4
        24 July 2026 18: 25
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Name the universal 130mm mounts that could be installed on the 30-bis destroyers.

        SM-5-1. smile
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Insignificant - 8 37mm barrels and 6 25mm barrels versus 10*40mm and 7*20mm.

        The issue of fire control is tactfully omitted. smile Because there is director control (optics + radar) and power guidance drives in the heavy Yankee MZA versus the “bulging naval eye” and manual drives in the Soviet MZA.
        You might as well say that Japanese naval small-caliber anti-aircraft guns at the end of WWII were in no way inferior to the American ones - look at how many guns the Japanese crammed onto their ships. wink
        1. +2
          24 July 2026 19: 10
          Quote: Alexey RA
          SM-5-1.

          Alexey, do you really want to troll me on a warm summer evening? laughing hi
          SM-5-1 is not 130 mm, it's a hundred :))))
          Quote: Alexey RA
          The issue of fire control is tactfully omitted.

          Of course. Initially, it was just a question of the number of guns—there's no point in blaming our guys for the lack of directors, since we didn't have any at the time.
          1. +4
            24 July 2026 19: 42
            hi
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            SM-5-1 is not 130 mm, it's a hundred :))))

            I apologize for the inattention - indeed, you indicated 130 mm. fool

            But, IMHO, given our war experience, the universal 100mm is better for destroyers than the non-universal 130mm. Look, the Limeys also switched from the 120mm to the universal 114mm.
          2. +4
            24 July 2026 19: 50
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Of course. Initially, it was just a question of the number of guns—there's no point in blaming our guys for the lack of directors, since we didn't have any at the time.

            The naval directors should have been on the Murmansk—it definitely had twin 40mm guns. But everything there depends on the guidance drives and all that SSP stuff.

            And also neighboring department There was a remote fire control system with a central aiming station that allowed firing from a moving carrier at a moving target. smile
            The PV-20 defensive system included four turret mounts, a tail turret, automatic sights, and a central aiming station. The system provided 24 fire control combinations. Using one of the PS-48 aiming stations, the defensive system could be controlled from any turret.
      4. 0
        28 July 2026 08: 25
        Proximity fuse type VT fits onto 76/50 Mark 22 shells virtually without changes.
        That is, it should fit both the Soviet 85 mm and 100 mm.
  11. -6
    23 July 2026 15: 26
    First, our naval theorists failed to recognize the decisive role that aircraft carriers played in the battles of World War II.

    Aircraft carriers played no decisive role in World War II. They played virtually no role in the main European theater, played a secondary role in the defeat of the Japanese fleet (after submarines), and played a minor role in the defeat of Japanese ground forces.
    But even more importantly, after World War II they fell hopelessly behind nuclear submarines, which had replaced battleships as the main combat ships of the fleet.
    The USSR's coastline is very long in the north, where no aircraft carriers can be used. The USSR's other shores are closed inland seas—the Baltic and Black Seas—where aircraft carriers also have no place.
    1. +3
      23 July 2026 15: 29
      Quote: Kostadinov
      Aircraft carriers did not play any decisive role in World War II.

      Hmm:)))))) Have you tried studying the history of WWII?:))))))))
  12. +2
    23 July 2026 15: 40
    "The sailors didn't have full information about the battles in the Pacific Ocean," but they knew perfectly well about the battles in the Black Sea, where the Nazis didn't have a single warship or submarine, except for a few torpedo boats. But only thanks to aviation and the very small amount of anti-aircraft weapons on Soviet ships were a large number of Black Sea Fleet ships lost. Subsequently, the remaining Black Sea Fleet ships, including the battleship, withdrew to distant Black Sea ports and remained there until the end of the war.
    1. +1
      23 July 2026 16: 12
      Quote: vadim dok
      BUT only thanks to aviation and a very small amount of anti-aircraft weapons on Soviet ships, a large number of Black Sea Fleet ships were lost.

      But in the Northern Fleet, there wasn't, even though convoys were regularly attacked by aircraft. Conclusion?
      1. 0
        23 July 2026 18: 20
        The command in the fleets was different.
        1. +1
          24 July 2026 08: 10
          Quote: vadim dok
          Command of the fleets

          On the Northern Fleet, did it repel aerial bombs and torpedoes with its chest?
  13. -2
    23 July 2026 15: 50
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Have you tried studying the history of WWII?

    I studied how aircraft carriers saved Leningrad and Moscow, and how they crushed the Germans from Stalingrad and Kursk to Berlin. Of course, these are minor events and have no bearing on the outcome of World War II. I can add about the decisive role of aircraft carriers on the Volga, Lake Ladoga, the Black Sea, and the Baltic.
    1. +4
      23 July 2026 16: 13
      Quote: Kostadinov
      I studied how aircraft carriers saved Leningrad and Moscow,

      Then I'm not at all surprised by your statements. But I still recommend making an effort and at least saying "sometimes" to hard drugs, since you can't live without them at all.
  14. +3
    23 July 2026 18: 39
    3. 30 cruisers with 180-mm main gun artillery;

    Here's an interesting point.
    When the discussion turned to completing the Lützow/Seydlitz pair (46-47), the sailors drew up a 4x3-180mm MK-3-180 main caliber in the specifications, to which they received the following response from the shipbuilders: guns are not being produced, nor are turrets, and there are no plans to resume production...
    After this, the project was redesigned for 4x3-152 mm with MK-5 turrets.
    1. +1
      23 July 2026 19: 12
      Quote: Macsen_Wledig
      The guns are not being produced, nor are the turrets, and there are no plans to resume production...

      So they probably weren't included in the plans after that meeting :))))
      1. +3
        23 July 2026 19: 25
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        So they probably weren't included in the plans after that meeting :))))

        I don’t think so... turret production was stopped after the completion of work in the interests of Project 26/26-bis. Gun production (taking into account the stocks in warehouses) was most likely reduced to the production of liners.
        Well, the sailors always wanted something strange: the desire for a 180mm grew out of a desire for unconditional superiority in artillery over the "Clevelands". :)
        1. +2
          24 July 2026 08: 11
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig

          I don't think so... tower production was shut down after the completion of work in the interests of Project 26/26-bis

          That's true, but the question is what
          Quote: Macsen_Wledig
          There are no plans to resume production...

          If the plan for 30 cruisers with 180mm guns had been accepted, then this artillery would have appeared in the plans.
  15. +2
    23 July 2026 20: 59
    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    So they probably weren't included in the plans after that meeting :))))

    I don’t think so... turret production was stopped after the completion of work in the interests of Project 26/26-bis. Gun production (taking into account the stocks in warehouses) was most likely reduced to the production of liners.
    Well, the sailors always wanted something strange: the desire for a 180mm grew out of a desire for unconditional superiority in artillery over the "Clevelands". :)


    So Project 66 grew out of the desire for unconditional superiority over the "Des Moines", and Project 82 over the "Alaskans".
  16. +4
    23 July 2026 21: 55
    The author, despite his meticulous attention to detail, missed one point. In March 1946, the People's Commissariat of the Shipbuilding Industry was transformed into the Ministry of Shipbuilding Industry of the USSR. Therefore, when discussing post-war history, it's appropriate to refer to the ministry and its leaders—the ministers.
    1. +2
      23 July 2026 22: 19
      Quote: balabol
      People's Commissariat of the Shipbuilding Industry

      Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. That's what the source said, but I didn't check.
      1. +2
        23 July 2026 23: 19
        There is such an organization—the Scientific Research Institute of Shipbuilding and Armament of the Navy, twice awarded the Order of Lenin, the Order of the October Revolution, the Red Banner, and the Order of the Red Banner of Labor—of the Military-Educational Center of the Navy "Naval Academy" (NII KV VMF)—the leading scientific organization in the Navy system of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation. The institute is located in St. Petersburg.
        Many of the issues you write about have been the subject of research at this institution. Do you use their materials, for example, from the Soviet period?
        Entire departments worked on your topics there.
        1. 0
          24 July 2026 08: 14
          Quote: balabol
          You don’t use their materials, for example, from the Soviet period?

          Unfortunately, no. Where can I get them?
  17. +2
    23 July 2026 22: 06
    The court's leadership wasn't easy. Look at the management changes.

    Nosenko held the position of People's Commissar/Minister several times.
    From January 1939 - 1st Deputy People's Commissar, from May 17, 1940 - People's Commissar of the Shipbuilding Industry of the USSR.
    During the Great Patriotic War, he was simultaneously (September 1941 – February 1942) the 1st Deputy People's Commissar of the Tank Industry of the USSR.
    On March 19, 1946, he was relieved of his post and appointed Deputy Minister of the Shipbuilding Industry of the USSR.
    From December 29, 1947 to January 10, 1950 - Minister of Transport Engineering of the USSR.
    From January 1950 to October 1952 - 1st Deputy Minister of the Shipbuilding Industry of the USSR.
    From October 31, 1952 to March 5, 1953 - Minister of Shipbuilding Industry of the USSR.
    In March–June 1953, he was the 1st Deputy Minister of Transport and Heavy Engineering of the USSR.
    From June 29, 1953 to April 19, 1954 - Minister of Transport and Heavy Engineering of the USSR.
    From April 19, 1954, Minister of Shipbuilding Industry of the USSR.

    Another Minister of the Court of Industry during the period described was also a "native" of the tank industry.
    Alexey Adamovich Goreglyad (1905-1986, Moscow)
    In September 1941, he was appointed deputy to the People's Commissar of Tank Industry V. A. Malyshev, and in 1943-1945, first deputy.
    March 19, 1946 – January 10, 1950 Minister of Shipbuilding Industry of the USSR.
  18. +2
    23 July 2026 22: 11
    The level of Soviet admirals is immediately apparent, approaching zero. During the war, the US built a hundred aircraft carriers, 33 of them heavy and medium. Not knowing this is a sign of one's own stupidity. I can only assume that through this ugly shipbuilding program, foreign intelligence was trying to bankrupt the USSR, siphoning resources from other, more important programs. Apparently, the current Navy leadership hasn't progressed very far.
    1. +5
      23 July 2026 22: 57
      Quote: alberigo
      The level of Soviet admirals is immediately apparent, approaching zero. During the war, the US built a hundred aircraft carriers, 33 of which were heavy and medium. Not knowing this is a sign of one's own stupidity.

      Everything was much simpler: they planned to build an "anti-landing" fleet that would operate under the "umbrella" of coastal aviation...
      1. +3
        24 July 2026 19: 04
        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
        Everything was much simpler: they planned to build an "anti-landing" fleet that would operate under the "umbrella" of coastal aviation...

        Moreover, the radius of the "umbrella", apparently, was determined by the full combat radius of the fighters, and not by the time it took for reinforcements to arrive at the duty group after the enemy was detected.
        Because the second scenario is a very bleak one: the effective range of coastal air defense coverage (the distance between the ships and the coastal airfield) is approximately 90% of the detection range of enemy aircraft relative to the naval group being covered. If the ships have moved further, the shore-based reserves simply won't have time to arrive before the enemy launches an attack.
  19. +3
    23 July 2026 22: 18
    An interesting article with an unconventional approach and unexpected criticism of the attitudes accepted in public discourse.

    The title refers to Project 66, but the author correctly started with the general shipbuilding program; Project 66 is only a small element of a complex mosaic.
    At the same time, some of the author's conclusions seem somewhat hasty, or even superficial. In analyzing a specific shipbuilding program presented by the Navy command, the author became engrossed in technical and quantitative details. This, apart from the Navy General Staff's general understanding of the Navy's threats and missions in the immediate postwar period and the naval leadership's understanding of its capabilities in terms of personnel availability, the inertia of its training, and the combat experience gained in the last war, as well as an understanding of industrial capabilities, does not lead to objective conclusions.

    Of course, the proposed program was clearly a compromise, in some ways even clearly unrealistic, and here one can agree that it was a bid for "shrinkage and shrinkage"...

    But in defense (or justification) of such a program, perhaps crooked, and also in defense of the industrial leadership, one can and should take into account that our country, upon exiting the war, was clearly not in the best economic, financial, or industrial shape, had suffered enormous losses in human capital, and was seriously lagging behind the United States, which could and did churn out ships like hotcakes.

    We lacked the capacity for mass production of heavy ships, not only in terms of metalworking, but also in terms of the required skilled labor force. The 10-year program—in my opinion—is a "test run" program that can be quickly adjusted. It's important to remember that we have four fleets, each with distinct operational theaters, different adversaries, different climate zones and ship repair resources, different regional populations (and who will operate and support the fleet bases?), and the practical inability, other than the Baltic Fleet-Northern Fleet combination, to provide rapid, substantial support to each other.
    And most importantly, people. Someone has to serve on the ships. These people need to be recruited from civilian life, put through academy, and become capable ship and combat unit commanders a full 3-5 years after graduation, plus the training itself takes 4-5 years. And people also need to build the ships—but where are they going to find them in such numbers? And as for the resource base and production capacity, it's a complete disaster.

    So, building a mosquito fleet allows us to solve this problem quite quickly, and even the personnel of a torpedo boat allows commanders to quickly ascend to the top, to a "heavier" weight class...
    If the author were to add to his article an assessment (even a shortened one, otherwise the article would swell into a multi-volume work) of the tasks that the country's leadership set for the naval command, the capabilities of industry, and the lack of understanding of the navy's role in the past war (and necessarily - taking into account the experience of allies and adversaries, the USA and Japan with Great Britain, of course) - in my opinion, the article would benefit significantly.

    And the author's reasons about the actual program of the first decade of shipbuilding will inevitably win.

    Moreover, this is not just a dry academic historical review - I wrote it and put it in a drawer...
    Today, the same problem persists: the naval leadership's inability to identify and formulate the correct role for the navy in the current and future wars. The naval leadership's intellectual impotence is astounding...

    The role of the fleet will be seen by its high command, and the tasks set for it by the highest military-political leadership will be the same... unfortunately, not the other way around...

    The article is undoubtedly controversial and interesting, I look forward to the continuation.
  20. +1
    24 July 2026 13: 46
    Things are going horribly wrong with aircraft carriers. And no one even considered the need for ground-based infrastructure. Although that's not just for aircraft carriers.
  21. 0
    24 July 2026 21: 42
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    The Black Sea Fleet in WWI was perhaps the most combative fleet of all the powers.

    I'd be interested to hear your opinion on the quality of shipbuilding program planning between 1895 and 1914 and between 1945 and 1955. Is it fair to say that under the Tsar there was a problem with implementation, while in the post-war USSR there was a problem with systems analysis?
  22. 0
    25 July 2026 13: 55
    The figures presented in the Mosquito Fleet Program are perplexing. I wonder if anyone has done the math and economics. Perhaps, by abandoning two or three hundred small vessels, a couple of aircraft carriers could have been built in the post-war era?
  23. -2
    26 July 2026 19: 18
    No need for a continuation. The so-called "analysis" is Solzhenitsyn-style writing and has nothing to do with the Review.
  24. 0
    27 July 2026 10: 41
    Quote: RR_Vernadsky
    The figures presented in the Mosquito Fleet Program are puzzling.

    If Russia had fulfilled the USSR's military shipbuilding program from November 1945 at the beginning of the 21st century (of course, on a new technical basis), then Odessa and Nikolaev and the entire Ukrainian coast could have been occupied even before the negotiations in Istanbul in 2022.
  25. 0
    27 July 2026 22: 39
    Quote: Victor Leningradets
    using designs from Soviet Ukraine

    It doesn't seem possible. The Germans have bitten and bitten everything they could.
  26. -1
    29 July 2026 19: 00
    Stalin's navy always had one drawback: the glorious future of its dreams didn't correlate with the vile present reality. When the country was living in dugouts, plans for four battleships and a ton of other ships...well, how can you explain to the feeble-minded that this is...unlikely!!!
  27. +1
    30 July 2026 10: 40
    Quote: Rooivalk
    Stalin's fleet always had one drawback: the wonderful future of dreams did not correlate with the vile present of reality.

    Stalin's navy always had a bright present and a bright future. The present was victory in the war, the wonderful November 1945 program, and the creation of the foundations of a nuclear submarine and missile fleet.
    1. +1
      30 July 2026 11: 15
      Quote: Kostadinov
      Stalin's navy always had a bright present and a bright future. The present was victory in the war, the wonderful November 1945 program, and the creation of the foundations of a nuclear submarine and missile fleet.

      That's just creation of the foundations of a nuclear submarine and missile fleet had very little to do with wonderful program of November 1945The same Project 627 submarine was initially designed as a "mind game" for nuclear scientists - and after reviewing the plans for this "suicide boat," the sailors' hair stood on end.
      Khrushchev should probably be considered the patron of the nuclear submarine and missile fleet. He was absolutely determined to inflict unacceptable damage on the United States in the event of a nuclear war and limit the damage to the USSR. And so he focused all his efforts on building SLBM and GLCM carriers (as the only weapons capable of reaching US territory at the time) and torpedo-carrying submarines to protect his SSBNs and hunt enemy SSBNs. And as for the "missileization" of surface ships and the abandonment of the artillery ships of the "Stalin fleet" under the National Security Service, everyone knows about it.