Some challenges of drone acoustic location: why sound is not radio

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Some challenges of drone acoustic location: why sound is not radio


On systemic issues that get lost in the conversation about spectra and neural networks



I'm 80 years old and have been retired for a long time. In the past, I served for a long time at a military academy and was involved in applied research in the field Defense, so I'm familiar with this area professionally. Reading open publications about the fight against drones, I increasingly find myself with the same feeling: the techniques for specific issues have been sorted out, but the systemic level is lagging. The comments keep throwing up "complex numbers," "Fourier spectrum," "cepstrum," "neural networks," and "artificial intelligence," and they're far from always appropriate. I want to partially fill this gap. My starting point was The Acoustic Signature of Drones: Detection, Identification, and Countermeasure Possibilities, where technical details are present but higher-level tasks are absent. The word "some" in the title is not coquettish: this is a sketch, not a finished solution.

First questions, then spectra


Before diving into analyzing the signal structure in the time and frequency domain, it's helpful to ask and answer a few questions before doing any math.

First: what are we actually considering—a single receiving station or a distributed system? Second: what do we want to obtain—just the signal detection or an estimate of its parameters? And which ones specifically—bearing (that is, the direction of the sound source), coordinates, speed? The answer is up to the user: an air defense crew needs one thing, a warning system another.

Next comes the location method. Off the top of my head, there are three: angle-measuring (measuring directions), differential-range-measuring (measuring distance differences), and a combination of both. The choice isn't abstract: it determines how many points to place and how to count them.

And only now – about the range. According to open data, a single microphone “hears” Drone per unit of kilometers. This value fluctuates widely and depends on the type of apparatus, background levels, and atmospheric conditions. Precise values ​​should be verified using specialized sources. If the microphone array is highly focused, a separate question arises: how to survey the space with it? Without answering this, it is impossible to estimate the size of the detection zone, and therefore the cost of covering a given defense area. Angular accuracy also comes into play. Does a single microphone provide an acceptable bearing? What about the array? Until these accuracies are known, it is simply too early to talk about pinpointing the source with the required accuracy.

Why one point is not enough and where do ghosts come from?


From a single point, the range to a target can only be estimated very roughly, based on sound volume. And if there's more than one target in the air, especially at close bearings, separating them from a single point is impossible. Therefore, at least two measuring points are needed. The target's position is then determined by the intersection of the bearings, simply and clearly.

It's simple, as long as there's only one target. As soon as there are multiple, the problem of identification arises. Let's say two points each provide N bearings to N targets. There will be N² points of intersection of these bearings, and only N of them are true. The remaining N² − N are false, geometric ghosts created when a ray from one point intersected with a foreign ray from another. They need to be filtered out, preferably cheaply, without a ton of calculations.

Three or more points significantly simplify matters: the true point is aligned with all pairs of bearings at once, while the false one is not. This is a reliable indicator for rejection. But there is a second type of ghost, independent of the number of points—multipath. Sound arrives not only directly but also reflected from the ground and local objects. Each such reflection acts as an imaginary source and generates additional false intersections. Eliminating them is a separate task, and it will not go away.

Correlation, hyperbole, and "we're there"


Let's return to the difference-ranging method. The idea is familiar: the coordinates of a source are found by the difference in signal arrival times at two points. A pair of points yields one such difference. On a plane, this difference corresponds not to a point or a line, but to a hyperbola—a line along which the difference in distances to two points is constant. To obtain a point, a second hyperbola is needed, that is, a third point. Or, instead, a sufficiently accurate bearing from one of the two points.

All that remains is to find the actual arrival time difference. A correlation function comes in handy here—in simple terms, it's a measure of how much two microphones hear the same thing, but with a time shift. We shift one recording relative to the other and see at what shift they match best. This shift is the desired arrival time difference. It seems the job is done, and we've reached our goal.

But don't rush. In the radio range, the correlation-difference-ranging method works perfectly: there, the signals are noisy, meaning weakly correlated, and the correlation peak is sharp and singular. With sound, the first difficulty arises: periodicity.

The drone's sound source is periodic: the fundamental harmonic, the engine RPM, dominates the spectrum. Since the signal is periodic, so is the correlation function. It has more than one maximum: false peaks repeat with the signal period. And when the signal period is shorter than the desired delay (the difference in arrival time), distinguishing the true maximum from the adjacent, false one becomes difficult, creating ambiguity. These false peaks have to be filtered out. One approach is to not focus on a single fundamental harmonic, but to use the broadband component of the spectrum. Why this is truly important, I'll explain later.

The Doppler Effect: Why Sound Doesn't Behave Like Radio


The second challenge is more serious, and I once encountered it firsthand. While observing an An-2 aircraft with the S-200 anti-aircraft system's target illumination radar, I saw a Doppler shift of approximately 2 kHz. Let me clarify up front: this is an empirical estimate from personal experience, an illustration of the scale, and not a universal reference result. But it illustrates the point well.

From the textbook, we take the general formula for the Doppler shift for the case where the source is moving, while the receiver and environment are stationary (no wind). This is precisely the case we need, since the sound is emitted by a drone:

dF = F V/(c−V),

Where F is the radiation frequency, V is the source's velocity relative to the receiver (positive for an approaching source), and c is the propagation velocity of the oscillations. This case should not be confused with others: if the receiver is moving and the source is stationary, the formula is different (as a first approximation, dF = F V/c), while in windy conditions, it has its own formula. The total observed frequency for an approaching source can conveniently be written as F' = F c/(c − V).

The key to this formula is that the shift is directly proportional to the frequency. It is this proportionality that creates the entire difference between radio and sound.

Let's check it on the radio range. Let F = 6 109 Hz, V = 50 m/s, c = 3·108 m/s (the speed of light). Then the shift will be dF = 6 109·50/(3·108 - 50) ≈ 2000 Hz. I observed this on the S-200 while accompanying a slow-moving An-2 aircraft.

Note the proportion: the target's speed is negligible compared to the speed of light, V ≪ c. Therefore, the Doppler shift is practically the same for all sections of the spectrum, with the relative difference at its edges vanishingly small. This difference is safely ignored, and the spectrum simply shifts as a single spot.

In the audio range, the picture is the opposite. The speed of sound is only c = 340 m/s, and a drone with a speed of V = 50 m/s is already moving at a noticeable fraction of this speed. Let's take a signal with two spectral components, 100 Hz and 1000 Hz, that is, a width of 900 Hz. We calculate the shifts: for 100 Hz, this is 100 x 50/(340 − 50) ≈ 17,2 Hz, for 1000 Hz - 1000 x 50/(340 − 50) ≈ 172 Hz. At the receiving point, the lines will be at 117,2 Hz and 1172 Hz. Now the spectral width is the distance between the outer lines: 1172 − 117,2 ≈ 1055 Hz. That is, the spectrum expanded from 900 to 1055 Hz, by 155 Hz, by approximately 17%.

Here's the crux of the matter. In radio, Doppler is additive, adding almost the same amount to all frequencies. In audio, it's multiplicative: it doesn't shift the spectrum, but rather stretches it unevenly. Low frequencies shift only slightly, while high frequencies shift significantly more. And this stretching varies at different receiving stations because the target approaches them with different radial velocities. Two stations no longer hear the same shifted signal, but two differently deformed ones, and the correlation between them disintegrates. This is a significant difference from multi-position passive radar, where this subtlety can be ignored.

Why bother with this at all? For the sake of range. From an air defense tactical perspective, the range of passive sound ranging is always insufficient, and it must be squeezed out of the entire signal energy, the entire spectrum, and not just the fundamental harmonic. But it is the periodicity of the correlation function (the same one from the previous section) and multiplicative Doppler that prevent us from working with the entire spectrum. We'll overcome them, and we'll get the range. There's also a pleasant side effect: the spectrum stretching coefficient is uniquely related to the target's radial velocity. This means that by selecting a correction that removes Doppler distortion, we simultaneously measure the radial velocity itself, the projection of the target's movement toward the target. And from three points, three radial projections form a complete three-dimensional velocity vector. Knowing this, we can account for the sound delay and calculate the target's actual location at the time of calculation, not where it was when the sound was transmitted.

And there's another fly in the ointment. The speed of sound is variable: it depends on temperature, humidity, and air composition. Wind and atmospheric temperature stratification bend sound rays, a phenomenon known as refraction. All of this impacts both range and accuracy, adding to the aforementioned multipath effect.

Why "some"


Problems similar to those discussed have likely long been solved in another field, sonar. However, for obvious reasons, the results haven't appeared in the public domain there. Interestingly, physics favored the sonar scientists in this problem, not ours. Sound in water travels more than four times faster than air, about 1500 m/s versus 340. And objects of interest to sonar—submarines and torpedoes—move several times slower than drones, not to mention other aerial targets. This means the ratio of target velocity to the speed of sound is an order of magnitude smaller, and with it, the multiplicative spectral stretching. It's safe to assume that this effect is simply ignored in sonar, and the correlation method works almost without exception. Air doesn't afford us such luxury.

These notes are just a sketch of a future, more detailed analysis. In the sequel, I hope to refine two components into practical form: an algorithm for calculating the correlation function with correction for Doppler spectral stretching and a procedure for filtering out false intersections of bearings in a spaced system. If the topic proves interesting to readers, I will try to complete the solution and publish the results.

38 comments
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  1. +5
    19 July 2026 04: 22
    Solid article.
    Question: Do you use a directional microphone to scan the area for bearings? Are you considering sound receiver arrays?
    1. +4
      19 July 2026 04: 55
      Quote: Sensor
      Are you considering sound receiver grilles?

      Are you hinting at the possibility of analyzing the phases of a sound wave front? Then, for acceptable accuracy, such a grid would be roughly the size of a football field, plus an external reference signal for continuous calibration of this sound grid. People around you won't like it, but the enemy will hear and see it.
      When it comes to acoustic scanning, laser methods, currently used in law enforcement eavesdropping devices, are the most suitable. They easily achieve ranges of up to several kilometers and direction-finding accuracy within centimeters.
      1. +5
        19 July 2026 05: 42
        Regarding the "football field-sized antenna." There's a well-known formula for estimating the antenna's main lobe width in degrees: Phi = 60*Lamda/L, where Lambda is the wavelength and L is the antenna aperture (microphone array) width.
        To obtain an antenna beamwidth of Phi=1 degree, an aperture of 60 wavelengths is required.
        For example, at a sound frequency of 340 Hz, the wavelength is exactly 1 meter. A microphone array 60 meters wide is required. For frequencies around 100 Hz, the resulting size is, yes, about the size of a football field. For a polar pattern width of, say, 10 degrees, the dimensions are compressed by a factor of 10.
        1. +2
          19 July 2026 08: 23
          Quote: VPKirillov
          There is a known formula for estimating the width of the main lobe

          You've forgotten that each microphone requires a spatial signal selection system. Otherwise, you'll be analyzing atmospheric noise and ground vibrations, not the useful signal front. Clearly, this won't work with a horn device like the ones used during the Great Patriotic War. With a resolution of 1 degree, the spatial scanning speed must be very high and precise. Therefore, a multichannel receiver similar to a digital phased array antenna will need to be developed immediately. In my opinion, the optimal solution is to adapt to the task the towed sonar antennas of submarines. Clearly, the acoustic properties of water and air are different. But this will only affect the cable length. The main thing is that the mathematics and software, as well as the hardware systems, are well-developed and are mass-produced.
  2. +5
    19 July 2026 04: 38
    If I could, I would give this post a few likes! good
    Unfortunately, there are very few truly competent articles on the topic of air defense!
  3. +6
    19 July 2026 04: 39
    It's a pleasure to read articles written by an expert. I hope those commenters who offer ideas like the hedgehog joke will understand the profound difference between "I've been writing this for a long time" and bringing something to practical application.
  4. +5
    19 July 2026 04: 43
    When radars capable of recognizing targets based on their radar signature, like the 22Zh6, were being developed, this was a real problem. Unfortunately, I didn't see one in operation at a university or at a test site, but the theory behind ultra-wideband signals and their processing is quite compelling. Then, in the early 2000s, some scientists proposed breakthrough dual- and tri-band radars. True, when they did the math, they shed tears, settled on two, and forgot about them. But even then, it was clear that no single form of electronic, optoelectronic, or acoustic technology could independently guarantee timely and high-quality target detection. The most comprehensive solutions are needed, preferably using the targets' own radiation energy across all acoustic, optical, and electronic bands. Ideally, of course, it would be better to use the radiation energy of external sources such as TV towers, cellular base stations, navigation satellites, and communications satellites. In this case, the survivability of radars and on-board radars, as well as their carriers, could be much more confidently guaranteed. But for now, this is limited by the dynamic ranges and processing speeds of signal processors, which are practically non-existent in Russia. Designing with imported components is foolish, given the current global trends of technological isolation, theft, and even murder of leading scientists.
    In any case, it's already possible to integrate all reconnaissance systems using the existing hardware components in automated control systems, tie them into a single network-centric complex, and distribute the necessary information regarding firepower. Moreover, modern technologies make it entirely possible to create missiles and even UAVs capable of targeting without any additional radars that would reveal the air defense control center. All that's needed is to implement algorithms that analyze the quality of the information using well-established methods. These methods, again, are currently used in very limited form due to the need to avoid overloading processors and memory in systems operating in real time with statistical analysis algorithms.
    1. +3
      19 July 2026 06: 01
      My comments on your post.
      1. In the radio range, to identify aircraft types (for example, to distinguish a fighter from a bomber by size), a signal spectrum width of 30-50 MHz is required. I am not aware of such radars. It is also possible to use sound waves that modulate the reflected signal and can be detected by Doppler radar. This didn't progress beyond experiments until the late 1980s.
      2. The problem of detecting aerial targets using signals emitted by television broadcasting centers was studied in the USSR as early as the late 1980s. Development work can now begin.
      3. The use of mobile networks for this same purpose has not only been carried out but even reached the experimental stage. But not in our country, but in the UK.
      Io, the work has been going on for a long time and is probably still ongoing, but it's all classified. Only the British foolishly published something. Including a photo of the rather bulky radar antenna.
      But this is all in the radio range.
      1. -3
        19 July 2026 06: 54
        Use of mobile networks

        These are all variants of passive radar. They were never fully developed for one reason: there were no customers. The military didn't count on cell towers and other sources of random radiation on the battlefield. They had no such needs, which arose because the military operation was a special one, on the horizon or beyond.
      2. +5
        19 July 2026 08: 04
        Quote: VPKirillov
        I am not aware of such radars.
        I designed the 22Zh6 radar. The leading theorist of target recognition based on radar patterns was Professor Yakov Davidovich Shirman. You might remember him as the inventor of the autocompensator. Unfortunately, I only witnessed his work when, after the dissolution of the Kharkiv Engineering Academy, some of the faculty transferred to the Zhukov Academy in Tver. The 22Zh6 radar has a special target recognition mode. In this mode, a chirp signal with a spectrum width of 100 MHz is generated, theoretically achieving a range resolution of 1-1,5 meters. As a result, the target appeared as a group of shiny dots, which, of course, changed depending on the angle. An entire laboratory was created where statistics were accumulated on mock-ups. Back then, as cadets, we trained an artificial intelligence system, simulating the work of several hundred neurons, to recognize these target patterns.
        Quote: VPKirillov
        emitted by television centers was studied in the USSR back in the late 1980s.
        At that time, the work was officially shut down due to a lack of the required components. Unofficially, pluralism and perestroika had already created ideal conditions for Western agents, a brain drain, and the closure of promising projects.
        Quote: VPKirillov
        But not here, but in Great Britain.
        The first to be developed was the US company Lockheed Martin's Silent Sentry radar. Similar systems followed in France a few years later, followed by Britain. Russia also developed several systems, one for maritime applications, and the second, more recently, was developed by the Vector Research Institute, which developed a semi-active radar system (PARLS) designed to locate moving and radio-silent targets. The system also operates by detecting and processing digital television signals reflected from the target.
        1. +2
          19 July 2026 13: 33
          What I've published here represents a pressing scientific challenge. And more than one. Some professor at the Zhukov Military Academy of the Aerospace Defense Forces is currently scratching his head, trying to figure out what to do with his adjuncts. Maybe he should throw them a bone to chew on. At least one PhD dissertation could be devoted to exploring the feasibility of a distributed acoustic system for providing defense against drones against a point target—a radar or air defense missile system. Among other things, an algorithm should be developed for instantly extracting target velocity from an audio signal without trajectory tracking. And a patent application should be filed for the invention. I don't claim co-authorship. I'm offering the idea to anyone interested.
  5. +1
    19 July 2026 05: 15
    The speed of sound is variable: it depends on temperature, humidity, and air composition. Wind and atmospheric temperature stratification bend sound rays, a process known as refraction.

    The question is: how large will the difference in direction-finding accuracy be if we take, say, the extreme values ​​of all these parameters? Could it be that under some conditions the drone's speed will be determined as 70 m/s, and under others, 100 m/s (even though it's actually flying at the same speed). Or will the difference be smaller?
    Interesting article, thanks
    1. +4
      19 July 2026 06: 14
      First, we need to learn how to determine wind speed and direction with high accuracy. Once this problem is solved, we can begin to understand the bearing errors.
      1. +5
        19 July 2026 08: 35
        Quote: VPKirillov
        learn to determine wind speed and direction with high accuracy
        and dozens of other parameters such as humidity, dust, temperature, etc.
        The solution is simpler. Reference signal generators are placed on telephone or cellular towers. These generate short beeps at regular intervals upon command, preferably outside the hearing range in the low and high parts of the spectrum. Knowing the exact coordinates of the reference signal simulators allows adjustments to be made to the measurement algorithms. This allows not only to take into account all possible factors but also to determine the performance of the entire system, including the parameters of the detection zone itself, which can vary significantly due to natural conditions.
  6. -3
    19 July 2026 06: 50
    Good article.
    I'd like to remind you, however, that with modern computing technology, the difficulties discussed by the author are largely straightforward and easily overcome. This includes taking into account the speed of sound as a function of temperature (using a sensor or even a microphone) and even air pressure (using a microphone as a function of sea level).
    Another level of circuit design and power now.
    A single microphone presents quite a few challenges. But processing from multiple (at least two) microphones is a fairly straightforward mathematical problem. No more complicated than a fairly standard digital radio.
    But the idea of ​​equipping cell towers (where there is always internet) is quite feasible without much expense.
    Targeting on combat modules is significantly more complicated, especially if there's no way to develop custom SoC chips.
    1. -1
      19 July 2026 10: 54
      Quote from tsvetahaki
      But the idea of ​​equipping cell towers (where there is always internet) is quite feasible without much expense.

      Not feasible if you are talking about radar.
      I have an article on this topic almost ready. It would be interesting to read your arguments as someone with a relevant education.
      1. +1
        19 July 2026 20: 28
        Quote: Bongo

        Not feasible if you are talking about radar.

        Regarding sonar. Towers scattered throughout Russia will certainly provide additional data for air defense.
        1. +2
          20 July 2026 10: 07
          Quote from tsvetahaki
          Regarding sonar. Towers scattered throughout Russia will certainly provide additional data for air defense.

          Sonar has very limited potential for detecting drones far from large population centers, highways, and railways.
          1. 0
            20 July 2026 22: 16
            Quote: Bongo
            Sonar has very limited potential for detecting drones far from large population centers, highways, and railways.

            I don't think so. Crossing cell phone coverage (in terms of sound direction finding) is inevitable during long-range raids.
            And to increase the radius, autonomous sensors at the edge of the cellular internet coverage (for transmitting a short data packet) are sufficient.
            Moreover, background noise levels in sparsely populated areas are significantly lower, increasing the detection range for early warning.
            The problem is more likely a lack of proper electronics. It's not hard to make something extremely cheap—using specialized chips, preferably SoCs. But that's out of the realm of science fiction... with such Chinese friends.
            The sound processing of a typical 7.2 home theater receiver far exceeds all needs, taking into account all the "difficulties" described by the author of the article.
            1. 0
              21 July 2026 03: 15
              Keyword:
              Quote from tsvetahaki
              background noise level in sparsely populated areas

              The number of cell towers in sparsely populated areas is typically low. Furthermore, I doubt such systems will meet the cost-effectiveness criteria.
              1. 0
                21 July 2026 05: 13
                Quote: Bongo
                Keyword:
                Quote from tsvetahaki
                background noise level in sparsely populated areas

                The number of cell towers in sparsely populated areas is typically low. Furthermore, I doubt such systems will meet the cost-effectiveness criteria.

                You don't need a lot of towers for early detection...
                Cost/efficiency - for our industry - I completely agree with the previous comment.
                For the US/China, based on my company's experience with dozens of chips, the mass production cost is $20-30. Plus the development cost—it depends on whether you're developing SoCs or looking for a bulk part.
  7. +2
    19 July 2026 06: 52
    Thank you. The excellent Soviet military scientific school is evident.
  8. 0
    19 July 2026 10: 17
    Even at the beginning of the Second World War, the Penicillin acoustic counter-battery warfare system was advertised.
    It's just a software update. It's not a technical issue, but a scaling one.
  9. +4
    19 July 2026 12: 11
    Well, perhaps the most important and fundamental thing to consider is that none of these methods is a "panacea"—they only work as part of a comprehensive system. It's no coincidence that the photograph chosen for illustration is a sound direction-finding post from the Prozhzvuk system—which, in turn, was part of the VNOS (Airborne Surveillance, Detection, and Communications) system, created and effectively operating long before the advent of computers and digital processing. In my humble opinion, of course, but only recreating such a system using a modern component and technical base will be able to truly and effectively combat all types of drones at all boundaries and ranges.
  10. +3
    19 July 2026 13: 42
    I hastened to state that, using the Doppler shift of the spectrum, the target's instantaneous velocity vector can be determined from data from three widely spaced receiver stations. This is only possible with active ranging, where the frequency of the signal, uncorrupted by the Doppler effect, is known. A passive ranging system would require more receiver stations to eliminate the uncertainty. Alternatively, in a three-position system, the velocity should be estimated in conjunction with the trajectory measurement, which would ensure increased accuracy.
    1. +2
      19 July 2026 14: 15
      A similar situation occurs in the GPS system. To determine the receiver's coordinates, signals from three navigation satellites are sufficient. BUT! This requires the precise timing of each satellite's signal. Conventional GPS receivers lack such precise timing of received signals. Therefore, a fourth satellite is used to eliminate this uncertainty. This is the bare minimum.
      In our case, we don't know the undistorted frequency spectrum of the observed drone. At each receiving point, the spectrum is distorted by the Doppler effect by an unknown amount. Using four receiving points, we can determine all four unknowns: the three components of the velocity vector and the drone's sound frequency when it is stationary.
  11. 0
    19 July 2026 13: 54
    Interesting. And most importantly, everything is clear; I'm just a bit in the know myself. I'm looking forward to the promised continuation. good
  12. +1
    19 July 2026 16: 51
    Sorry, but this can drown out any question. I got the impression the author is trying to solve the entire complex of problems with microphones at each specific point.
    There's no need for any of this. Such a system would be incredibly expensive.
    I already wrote about this in one of the discussions.
    Each specific point should be as simple as possible. But there should be many of them.
    For example, four microphones with horn-shaped plates. With a module for communication with the central processor.
    The easiest way to place such points is on cell towers. Let them broadcast audio 24/7 to the center.
    It is possible to provide simple filters for ranges characteristic of the task, but most likely it is not worth it.
    And in the processing center of, say, a positional area, you can do whatever you want with signal processing. Doppler, humidity, temperature, whatever. You can fine-tune the software on-site. Refine calculation methods, change the signatures of the signals being sought, and so on.
    The main thing is the number of sensors in the area and their location. Then we calculate the direction, speed, possible type, etc.
  13. 0
    19 July 2026 18: 50
    Quote: Aleksandr Bezfamilnuy
    And in the processing center of, say, a positional area, you can do whatever you want with signal processing.

    I'm not yet ready to discuss how to build a drone detection system on a large scale. In fact, in this article I've only covered one specific problem—using the Doppler effect. And even that isn't fully covered.
    I'd like to add a few words about the organization of the lower level of the system in a small area. This doesn't even apply to the entire "position area," if we're talking about, say, the combat zone of an air defense division.
    In what spatial region does it make sense to transmit original audio signals for combined processing at a local center? The answer is quite simple. Sound received beyond the detection range of another receiving station is practically useless because there is nothing to process it with. It makes sense to transmit the processed data—for example, the bearing and individual characteristics of the sound source. Otherwise, the processing center will be overloaded with unnecessary details that are pointless to process together.
    Thus, we arrive at the size of a passive acoustic locator's position. Its receiving points must be spaced so that the sound signal can be heard simultaneously at several receiving points. From there, it must be transmitted to a central location for combined processing. This means we're talking several kilometers between all the points. Such a locator could, for example, cover the position of an S-400-class air defense missile system battalion and even be part of its equipment. Or, say, an oil refinery. This locator could also serve as a source of information for higher-level and neighboring air defense command posts.
    To ensure continuous coverage of an area, provision should be made for the exchange of primary data (i.e., received sound waves) with neighboring radars. This means that similar radars can be used with other units. This will allow for the sharing of data from adjacent radars within overlapping sound signal detection zones.
    1. +1
      19 July 2026 20: 14
      Quote: VPKirillov
      I'm not ready to discuss how to build a drone detection system on a large scale yet.
      Because you're trying to solve the problem from scratch. In such cases, it's better to rely on existing solutions in the field of acoustic target detection. For example, towed sonars on ships and submarines. Or acoustic anti-helicopter mines. The simplest option was proposed back in MK magazine in the early 2000s. One inventor proposed placing an anti-tank mine under an ordinary wheelbarrow filled with gravel. Microphones, located about 100 meters from the mine, would be used as detonators. The detonation signal would be the sonic Doppler effect when a low-altitude aircraft passes over the microphone. It is claimed that a single mine would reliably destroy a target at altitudes up to 300 meters.
    2. 0
      20 July 2026 13: 00
      Sound received beyond the detection range of another receiving station is almost useless because there's nothing to process it with.

      The sound from four microphones already provides an approximate direction and possible nature of the target. For example, the sound of a propeller is difficult to confuse with the sound of a jet engine.
      At the antenna site itself, all that can be done is initial filtering and analysis, and then transmit the data in REAL time to a processing center with a fully-fledged calculation system, even with AI. That's all. The center, knowing the tower's coordinates and signals from other towers, then calculates the rest.
      The reason is that the equipment must be:
      1) Inexpensive. Mass produced.
      2. Remotely programmable at any time. This could be a minicomputer, for example, or even a Rasberry Pi. Or even boards like Arduino. The task is to extract the spectrum using specified masks and report the analysis from the microphones. Even Doppler effects are not so essential to consider.
      The approach you're proposing requires years. Do we have them? Ukraine ALREADY has something similar.
      I'll also add that such a system is essential. It could, for example, track the flight of cruise missiles flying along terrain profiles that radars might otherwise miss. And these systems should be deployed on the country's western borders, not to mention its southern ones.
      Remote programmability is necessary to adapt to new types of targets.
      That's why I suggest using cell towers. They have power and a connection.
  14. +2
    19 July 2026 22: 42
    Good evening everyone!
    Even at the beginning of the martyrs' flights, about 8,000 poles with microphones in combination with mobile terminals were installed in the 404 area...
    That is why from that side they always show us clear trajectories of UAVs and cruise missiles, and not the directions of flight as from our side.
    Place 4 microphones at one point, scanning their sector and one communication channel, what could be simpler?
  15. 0
    20 July 2026 00: 21
    Above is a photo of a sonar system... Listeners were recruited from among those with a musical ear as operators. These operators, completely unaware of all the complexities described here, detected the direction of approaching aircraft (single or in groups) from a distance of twelve kilometers. This allowed anti-aircraft gunners to prepare for the "meeting" well in advance.
    1. 0
      21 July 2026 03: 58
      Some questions for you off the top of my head.
      1. How many air targets can this sonar detector detect simultaneously?
      2. With what accuracy can he measure their coordinates?
      3. Is this accuracy sufficient for target designation by air defense weapons?
  16. 0
    21 July 2026 04: 02
    Quote: Aleksandr Bezfamilnuy
    a processing center with a full-fledged payment system, even with AI, providing information in REAL time.

    Do the algorithms for these calculations exist? Could you please elaborate on them?
    And one more thing about AI. What exactly do you mean?
  17. 0
    21 July 2026 04: 15
    Quote: Aleksandr Bezfamilnuy
    The approach you propose is years.

    I'm not yet proposing a system design principle. I'm merely discussing some technical nuances.
    Off the top of my head, I see two types of passive sound location systems. They differ in their purpose.
    1. For (if possible) early detection of drone flights. Something like a line or several lines covering large areas.
    2. To provide target designation to specialized drone-killing systems within a target group. For example, to cover the firing position of an S-400 air defense system.
    In these cases, passive sound location systems must meet different requirements and will therefore be designed differently.
  18. 0
    21 July 2026 10: 45
    dF = F V/(c−V)
    V is the velocity of the source relative to the receiver

    However, a more precise definition is needed here: RADIAL velocity relative to the receiver. Therefore, if a "directional" microphone is used and the UAV is moving nearly perpendicular to the observation axis, at a sufficiently high UAV speed and close to the microphone, the radial velocity will change very rapidly over time, causing the signal to simply "disintegrate" due to the Doppler shift, making it impossible to isolate even the "fundamental" harmonics of the acoustic signal.
    1. 0
      21 July 2026 22: 51
      Yes, of course, we are talking about radial velocity.