"The IS-3 turret does not provide reliable protection against German armor-piercing shells": a 1945 model

19 750 55
"The IS-3 turret does not provide reliable protection against German armor-piercing shells": a 1945 model


Point blank with a KwK 43


The IS-3 turret firing tests conducted at the Uralmashzavod (technical report of TsNII-48 and UMZ “Selection of armor steel grade for a cast turret with sharply varying dimensions in thickness in different sections”, 1945) and the materials of a special commission for testing turrets (test report for medium and high hardness turrets, 1945) showed that the turret tank The IS-3 does not provide completely reliable protection against the German 88mm armor-piercing shell with a muzzle velocity of 1000 m/s. This conclusion was recorded by researchers at the Armor Institute (TsNII-48) in 1945 and signed by Doctor of Technical Sciences and metallurgist Andrei Sergeevich Zavyalov. For the remainder of the narrative, we will remind readers of the specific terminology.



The rearward strength limit (RSL) is the maximum projectile velocity at impact at which the armor can withstand the impact without causing lethal fragments on the inside of the turret. In practice, even if a projectile doesn't completely penetrate the armor, a strong impact can break off pieces of metal inside the tank, injuring the crew. The through-penetration limit (PSP) is the projectile velocity at which it completely penetrates the armor. Brinell hardness is a parameter measured by the diameter of the imprint left by a steel ball. The lower the number in mm, the harder the steel—the ball penetrates to a lesser depth.


KwK 43

In a test report on the IS-3 turret, Uralmashzavod specialists noted the impossibility of protecting it from the German 88mm KwK 43 cannon. The cannon, it should be noted, was extremely powerful – it was mounted on the King Tiger and delivered 1000 m/s at the muzzle. Field firings revealed a non-obvious physical pattern concerning the properties of thick cast armor (from 100 to 150 mm). Three turrets were used as test subjects – with armor of high, medium, and low hardness. Statistics show that increasing the hardness of the steel does not lead to an increase in its resistance to high-energy projectiles. A comparative analysis of the turret parameters demonstrates this quite clearly: in the "high-hardness" section of the turret (turret #18), with a wall thickness of 146-152 mm, the ultimate rear strength is reached at a projectile velocity of 900 m/s, equivalent to a firing range of 1000 meters. However, the same section of the "medium-hardness" turret (turret #10), with a thickness of 146 mm, can withstand the same projectile at a velocity of 990 m/s, equivalent to firing from a range of only 100 meters.

Simply put, for thick cast armor (over 100 mm), excessive hardness is a recipe for disaster. Hard armor becomes brittle. Under the colossal impact of an 88 mm shell, it shatters like glass. But armor of medium and low hardness is more "ductile." It dents and deforms, but absorbs the projectile's kinetic energy without cracking or splintering.
The Uralmashzavod report states the following:

Based on the tests conducted, it was established that turrets with medium and low hardness exhibited greater shell resistance and survivability than those with high hardness. However, even medium-hard turrets did not provide complete protection against the German 88mm armor-piercing shell, as they were penetrated from a distance of up to 1000 meters within the course angles of 0 to 90° (thicknesses from 90 mm to 150 mm), i.e., in areas subject to the most intense shelling during combat.

As a result, the staff of the Leningrad Central Research Institute-48 had to make proposals for improving the penetration resistance of the IS-3 turret without changing its weight.

The objective was formulated as follows: to evaluate the reliability of the armor protection of the existing version of the IS-3 tank turret in combat conditions under fire from an 88-mm German gun with an initial velocity of 1000 m/s, to determine the possibility of increasing the reliability of the armor protection of the turret by redistributing its thickness in the direction of ensuring complete non-penetration in the front sector (0-90°) by reducing the thickness of the rear sector (90-180°) while maintaining the overall weight and design angles, and to provide specific proposals for changing the design of the armor protection of the turret.

To solve the problem, a method for assessing and calculating tank armor developed by the Moscow Branch of the Central Research Institute-48 was used. The essence of the method lies in assessing the reliability of armor protection based on the magnitude of losses in combat from penetration by tank and anti-tank shells. artillerySince the magnitude of losses from penetration of armor protection is taken to be proportional to the total probability of penetration of armor protection, the latter value is an indicator of the reliability of armor protection.

Before us is an example of mathematical modeling of armor resistance, perhaps the first in stories Soviet tank design. Engineers from TsNII-48 proposed abandoning expensive, time-consuming full-scale testing.

Plastic surgery for the tower


As mentioned above, TsNII-48 was faced with a challenging task: strengthening the turret without increasing its weight. This could only be accomplished through "plastic surgery": removing some metal from another part of the tank and transferring the freed mass to the front, making it impenetrable. Instead of casting turrets at random and then shooting them down, the engineers performed mathematical calculations. They applied probability theory, decomposing the tank's risk of destruction into three variables.

Hit chance: What's the likelihood that an enemy will hit the turret? This depends on the turret's size, its shape, and the dispersion of the cannon's shells when fired.

Penetration chance given a hit: If a shell does hit the armor, what is the probability that it will penetrate it? This depends on the thickness and quality of the steel at the specific point.

Total tower failure risk: this is the main final figure. It is calculated by adding up all the risks for each tower piece.

On paper, it was all simple: the turret's given weight needed to be distributed to ensure the lowest overall turret penetration probability, assuming no penetration of the turret's front sector (0-90°). Seems simple.


The following initial data were used for the calculation:

1. Armor type - medium hardness turret.
2. Caliber and type of projectile: 88 mm German armor-piercing, sharp-nosed with an armor-piercing tip, weight: 10,16 kg, muzzle velocity: 1000 m/sec.
3. Data on the armor's anti-projectile resistance according to the anti-tank weapons system were taken from the work of engineer M. Ya. Gerasimov, "Tactical properties of domestic homogeneous rolled armor" (Proceedings of the Central Research Institute-NKTP and Tank Industry No. 20, 1945).

When calculating the turret armor's resistance, the cast armor thickness was reduced by 10% to match the rolled armor's resistance. This is because the turret was cast, not welded from solid sheets, and the metal inside could be non-uniform. Using engineer Gerasimov's data ensures a greater margin of protection against projectiles compared to the actual data obtained during turret shelling.

4. The following conditions for firing at a tank in terms of range are adopted: the maximum firing range at a tank is 2000 m. The most probable firing range at a tank is 500 m.

It's worth noting that the simulated tank fire conditions were more stringent than those for the heavier and more armored IS-7. For the IS-7, the most probable range of fire from the KwK 43 was a whopping 800 meters, compared to 500 meters for the IS-3.




To assess the tank's protection reliability without actual firing, Soviet engineers used a method of geometrically dividing the complex hemispherical turret into smaller sections. They mentally divided its surface into eighty individual fragments, creating detailed specifications for each. These specifications meticulously recorded the exact metal thickness at each point and the armor's slope angle relative to the firing enemy. Given that cast steel is somewhat inferior to rolled steel in its properties, the specialists deliberately underestimated the calculated thickness of each section by ten percent to ensure that all subsequent calculations would have the necessary margin of safety and reliability.

The next step was to determine the vulnerability of each such fragment in a mobile combat situation. To do this, they applied the logic of probability theory, according to which the overall risk of damage to an element was determined by multiplying two factors: the probability that an enemy gunner would hit that specific area at all, and the probability of a complete penetration of the armor in the event of a successful hit. To ensure these calculations reflected reality, the researchers took into account the complex geometry of the turret and calculated its proportions. This allowed them to mathematically describe how often different sections of the armor would be exposed to a shell at a perpendicular, most dangerous angle, and how often at an acute angle, conducive to ricochets.

The final stage involved modeling the ballistic characteristics of the enemy's KwK 43 cannon. Using the most probable tank engagement range of 500 meters and the average height of an armored target as a basis, the engineers calculated the shell dispersion ellipse. They determined the probable vertical and horizontal deviation of the ammunition when fired from this distance. By combining data on the German cannon's accuracy, the shell impact angles, and the adjusted thickness of each individual fragment, the Soviet designers were able to conduct a full-scale virtual firing test of the tank on paper, accurately predicting the turret's resistance to enemy fire.

To accurately determine the tank's vulnerability, Soviet engineers had to calculate how enemy shells would strike the tank's surface, taking into account the gun's accuracy. Because the turret had a complex shape and was offset from the vehicle's hull's central axis, the engineers had to determine the precise coordinates of the center of impact dispersion, both horizontally and vertically. All these offsets for each individual turret sector were carefully recalculated, taking into account the probable deviations of the incoming projectile, and compiled into supporting tables. Essentially, the specialists linked the mathematical model of the "cloud" of incoming projectiles to the actual dimensions of a specific combat vehicle.




The most astonishing stage of this study was the calculation process itself, which replaced 3D computer modeling in the 1940s. To calculate the hit probability for each curved armor element, engineers used standard tracing paper. On it, they drew the silhouettes of turret sections and specific tactical penetration diagrams to exact scale. This transparent tracing paper was then superimposed on a special calculation grid consisting of numerous small rectangles. The researchers manually meticulously counted the number of grid rectangles within the outline drawn on the tracing paper. The ratio of the counted cells to the base-scale formula yielded a precise percentage hit or penetration probability for each piece of armor.

The result of this colossal graphic and analytical work was a complete "vulnerability map" for the entire turret. It consolidates all the initial data for each of the dozens of small fragments of the front and side projections: the physical thickness of the cast metal, its inclination and rotation angles. The resulting risk indicators, obtained by counting the squares on tracing paper, are separately identified. Thus, the designers obtained a visual and mathematically sound survivability map, precisely showing which areas would withstand a strike and which required immediate redistribution of the steel mass.




Mathematical modeling showed that at least half a ton of additional armor would be required to completely protect the IS-3 turret from the German KwK 43. This was unacceptable, so it was decided to trim it from the least vulnerable rear portion of the hull. A crucial engineering decision was that the tank's external shape and the armor's slopes remained completely unchanged—only the internal geometry of the metal casting changed.

The historical document "Changing the design of the IS-3 tank turret to improve the reliability of its armor protection (subject B-128)," which attests to the high qualifications of Soviet scientists, is kept in the Russian State Archive of Economics.
55 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. + 23
    19 July 2026 07: 16
    The finite element method is the primary method for solving differential and integral equations numerically on a computer. And here, everything is done on tracing paper. I can only imagine how labor-intensive that must be! How many sleepless nights engineers and designers must have spent with tracing paper and slide rules! My deepest respect!
    1. + 22
      19 July 2026 09: 57
      But these aren't just some old cadres; they're mostly young, engineers from Stalin's time. In 20 years, we'll have to create not just people, but a school. I'm not hinting at anything... lol
      1. +5
        20 July 2026 03: 51
        Quote: novel xnumx
        In 20 years, to create not just people, but a school. I'm not hinting at anything...

        Yes, it's possible to create something even now. If only there was the desire, or rather the will...
        But... apparently the ruling class doesn't have such a goal. And judging by the education "reforms," ​​their goals are quite the opposite...
  2. +2
    19 July 2026 08: 03
    Enough already, look at the photo online of the IS-3 in the Middle East against the Jews, there are dozens of hits on the turret hull and not a single penetration, the tank was simply abandoned by the Arabs...
  3. +1
    19 July 2026 08: 53
    In WWII, there were no tanks capable of countering the German 88mm gun. But the IS-3 easily held up against the 75mm gun carried by the T-4 and Panther. There were weapons that were ahead of their time. The Germans had rockets and jets, the striped ones had the B-29, and we had the IS-3.
    1. +2
      19 July 2026 10: 03
      To be fair, this isn't a classic "flak-flak" gun; it's an even more powerful gun, with a longer barrel; it even sounded excessive, so that's what they measured it against. Wisely. Yes
      1. + 12
        19 July 2026 11: 46
        Actually, ah-ah. And flak-flak is anti-aircraft gun-anti-aircraft gun
        1. +4
          19 July 2026 13: 11
          Shame on my grey bald spots! crying
    2. 0
      19 July 2026 13: 04
      Did the Germans have tanks that could reliably defend against IS-3 shells? And the IS-2 was also quite capable of turning German tanks into junk.
  4. +3
    19 July 2026 09: 40
    Creating an invulnerable tank, especially within a strictly specified weight, is a task that is impossible in principle.
    The IS-3 is a masterpiece of engineering and yet a complete failure as a combat vehicle. Individually, the solutions employed in it work perfectly, but within the overall design they don't fully work together, and they interfere with each other.
    The IS-3 concept envisioned a traditional breakthrough tank, virtually impervious to enemy anti-tank artillery and tank guns. German tank guns were considered for the latter role. German shells were also used.
    Since the tank was designed for the future, it had to be designed to withstand not only German shells, but also shells from the still-Allied forces, and this is where problems arose.
    Since the current version of the T-44 looked extremely weak as the main tank here, the IS had to become the main tank.
    In this case, the following requirements had to be met:
    1. Using a 122mm gun with boosted ballistics as a weapon, implementing Grabinsky's principle: the projectile is fired manually, and the cartridge case with the charge is fired automatically. He developed this device in draft form for the 107mm gun of the KV-3 tank. Testing sub-caliber projectiles with a discarding sabot.
    2. Using castings to manufacture tank hulls to achieve differentiated protection and reduce manufacturing labor intensity. The path taken by the first ISs should have been continued.
    3. Drastically improve the ergonomics inside the tank, ending the senseless struggle to reduce armored volume at the expense of combat effectiveness.
    4. Improve the tank's mobility by using a boosted engine and an improved transmission. This work was essentially being carried out in parallel with the development of the IS-4.
    5. Increase the cruising range of internal tanks by using conformal protected fuel tanks and the use of rack tanks.
    It is clear that such a tank could not have actually appeared in production before 1947, but this would have provided our troops with a real transition to a main tank and the solution to the problem of a general offensive in the European theater of operations.
    I understand perfectly well that these theses were born largely from knowledge, but all the prerequisites for the creation of such a machine were already in place by the winter of 1944/45.
    1. + 10
      19 July 2026 10: 34
      But I don't agree :))))
      In my opinion, at that time, the division of tanks into heavy and medium was still relatively justified, but making a main tank out of a heavy one... It's not a very good idea, again, for those years.
      1. -5
        19 July 2026 11: 15
        You know, Andrey, you do have the necessary analytical skills, so imagine how medium tanks would have fared in a potential Soviet-Allied conflict in Europe, circa late 1946. Given the Allied weapons, developed on German tanks, our early T-34-85s and T-44/54s would have been unable to solve a single operational problem. So what's left to do—hope to overwhelm them with sheer numbers?
        Like you won't shoot them all?!
        Zhukov was right to a certain extent in advocating for the T-10, but the tank's low technological advancement put an end to its mass production. The key to the war in Europe at that time was to deprive the enemy of maneuvering space and its tactical aviation of airfields. And most importantly, avoiding entanglement in a trench warfare. This required tanks and motorized infantry, but tanks that combined the firepower of heavy tanks with the maneuverability of medium tanks. The issue of protection, then, was a compromise between frontal protection against tank guns and overall protection against infantry anti-tank weapons.
        Until this tank was developed, production of existing models should have continued. Particular emphasis should be placed on using medium tank chassis for self-propelled guns of various types, primarily 152mm howitzers like the Hummel and 23mm and 37mm self-propelled guns.
        1. +8
          19 July 2026 11: 40
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          Taking into account the weapons available to the Allies, developed on German tanks, our T-34-85 and T-44/54 of the first modifications would not have been able to solve a single operational task.

          Why? Let's go back a bit to 1944 - the T-34-85's protection is completely inadequate compared to the anti-tank guns. Nevertheless, the Bagration and the like... What you're proposing is certainly interesting, but I doubt that the objectives
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          To dramatically improve the ergonomics inside the tank, ending the senseless struggle to reduce armored space at the expense of combat effectiveness.

          и
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          It was necessary to provide for resistance not only to German shells, but also to shells from the still-allied forces

          could have been solved. The Germans tried it and got the King Tiger, which, by the way, even with good armor, still wasn't invulnerable. Especially not against advanced weapons.
          1. -1
            19 July 2026 12: 09
            Bagration-44 was carried out with our total superiority in shelling in horsepower, artillery, tanks, and aircraft. Plus, the surprise of choosing the direction of attack. Take all this away, and we're looking at a repeat of the winter skirmish with the Germans in 1944.
            In Europe, we were faced with at least equality in personnel, our superiority in tanks and artillery, and the enemy's dominance in the air.
            One successful Ardennes-style operation could have saved us. But that would require thousands of new main battle tanks, wheeled infantry, and mobile artillery. And super-anti-aircraft defenses. And to exploit the success and clear the area, our T-34-85 reserves and regular infantry would be more than enough.
            As for protection, the tank's frontal surface should be effective against enemy tank guns, plus or minus 30 degrees to the side. Anything beyond that is truly impossible to protect (e.g., the IS-4). Other protection should be effective against shaped-charge projectiles.
            1. +4
              19 July 2026 12: 42
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              In Europe, we were expecting at least equality in personnel,

              No, not really, on the contrary, there was a significant superiority in personnel numbers. If we recall the assessments given in "The Unthinkable," then
              Planners note that only 47 Anglo-American divisions, including 14 armored, will be able to participate in offensive operations. They estimate that they will face forces equivalent to 170 Allied divisions, 30 of which are armored.

              They went too far, of course, but we had the advantage. And in post-war Europe, it simply didn't have time to unite its armies, which were scattered across Europe, or to transfer the US army to the continent—we would have turned around and struck much faster. In fact, this advantage existed in the 80s, too.
              1. +1
                19 July 2026 12: 57
                Well, not really.
                The Americans had time to build up their forces in Europe, plus they were supposed to use German formations.
                Incidentally, the Allies had no fewer tanks than we did, though their quality wasn't quite as good. However, their artillery and infantry were much more mobile, which is a crucial factor in maneuver warfare.
                Specifically for this article:
                The designers attempted to create a conical turret of equal strength that would provide reliable protection against the most powerful German tank gun.
                The result was a cramped, non-functional turret that provided no protection against more advanced projectiles.
                In this regard, the IS-4 turret, with its advanced zaman and well-designed frontal plate, looks more advantageous. And with a more complex combination of a high-hardness cast outer shell, absorbent material, and internal welded shrapnel protection, this design practically meets the protection requirements.
                1. +5
                  19 July 2026 13: 05
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  But the mobility of artillery and infantry was much higher, and this is a crucial factor in maneuver warfare.

                  Yes, but the Allies never learned how to maneuver. Their armies were vastly uneven in quality—those units that fought in Africa, yes, but the new ones... Have you read Carius?
            2. +2
              19 July 2026 13: 09
              There would have been no quantitative parity in the 40s and 50s. Democracies back then would not have been able to field a troop group comparable to the Red Army, something Western generals themselves acknowledged. The Soviet side would clearly have had numerical superiority. Air superiority is also questionable, as the Korean War clearly demonstrated. American anti-tank weapons also shouldn't be overestimated.
              1. +3
                19 July 2026 14: 58
                In fact, a four-million-strong Allied force, fully equipped with modern weaponry and with no logistical problems, was moving toward the Red Army. It boasted approximately 12 tanks and countless air support. Of course, their troops weren't prepared for a military confrontation with an equally powerful enemy, but that wasn't required of them. They successfully fought the mechanized forces with air power, leaving ground forces to effectively clear the area and seize key objectives behind enemy lines.
                Regarding the Korean War, there can be no talk of any equality in the air. The Americans flew wherever they wanted, accomplished what they planned, and supported ground operations from start to finish. Our air force managed to inflict significant losses on them in a number of air battles, but that's all.
                1. +1
                  20 July 2026 04: 05
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  Regarding the Korean War, there can be no talk of any equality in the air. The Americans flew wherever they wanted, accomplished what they planned, and supported ground operations from start to finish. Our air force managed to inflict significant losses on them in a number of air battles, but that's all.

                  Why didn't they just take over all of Korea then?
          2. MSN
            -2
            19 July 2026 17: 41
            We got the Royal Tiger, which, by the way, even if it had good armor, still wasn't invulnerable.

            Very interesting. And who penetrated the Tiger B's frontal armor? Don't suggest the BL-10. Penetrations of the side and rear projections are also unheard of.
            1. +4
              19 July 2026 18: 01
              Quote: MSN
              And who penetrated the Tiger B in the forehead?

              BS-3, D-25T, QF 17
              Quote: MSN
              Penetrations in the side and stern projections as well.

              Why did you decide that an impenetrable front, despite the otherwise vulnerable hull and turret, makes a tank invulnerable?
              1. 0
                19 July 2026 18: 15
                The conditioned VLD - only along the edges, the lower one - only from a close distance without axial deviations.
                The only gun that could penetrate the Tiger-B's frontal area was the KwK 43 L/71 with a sub-caliber round. And even then, it did so at inappropriate ranges.
                This does not mean that the Tiger-B is a successful machine.
              2. MSN
                +1
                19 July 2026 18: 47
                The D-25 couldn't penetrate the Tiger B's front at point-blank range. Nothing. 160mm at normal angles could only dream of penetrating 230mm equivalent armor. And 180mm, too. The BS-3 couldn't penetrate the upper glacis. Except in tests, and only in the armor joints. The same 160mm at normal angles. The 17-pounder could only penetrate the SABOT, which was incredibly accurate. Hitting the tank from 500 meters is a stroke of luck. On the other hand, it couldn't penetrate the Tiger from more than 500 meters either. A lucky coincidence.
                Why did you decide that an impenetrable front, despite the otherwise vulnerable hull and turret, makes a tank invulnerable?

                For the simple reason that ALL tanks can be penetrated from the sides and rear. And talking about vulnerability in this context is nonsense.
                1. +1
                  19 July 2026 20: 01
                  Quote: MSN
                  The D-25 couldn't penetrate the Tiger B's forehead at point-blank range. Nowhere.

                  Yes, you're right, it was A-19. And as far as BS-3 goes, I understand you have no objections.
                  Quote: MSN
                  For the simple reason that ALL tanks can be penetrated from the sides and rear. And talking about vulnerability in this context is nonsense.

                  In my opinion, the desire to jump into a discussion without understanding it, with your own—the only correct, of course—opinion, is delusional. However, I'm not insisting.
                  The debate centered on whether the USSR should have developed a MBT based on a heavy tank at the end of the war and immediately after. My esteemed opponent believes it should have, by improving protection to a level that would make it impervious to advanced guns and increasing the armor space for crew comfort. I believe it should not have, as even the King Tiger won't achieve invulnerability, and it would have required a great deal of sacrifice.
                  1. +2
                    20 July 2026 06: 45
                    Intervening.
                    The main problem with medium tanks is that they're cheap and ideologically expendable. One march, one battle. You're lucky to survive, but the tank is still a wreck.
                    This concept didn’t work for us in the summer of 1941. Thousands of BT and T-26 tanks, having set out on a “furious march,” remained there.
                    Frankly, the Vistula-Oder Offensive (the pinnacle of armored success) also barely scraped by. The Wehrmacht simply didn't have the strength for a serious counterattack like in 1943, otherwise the "Miracle on the Vistula" of 1920 could easily have been repeated in February 1945 on the Oder.
                    Where we came to in 1945:
                    1. The T-34 is massive, cheap, reliable, but poorly armed, virtually unprotected, and effective only against a disorganized enemy.
                    2. The T-44 is somewhat better protected, but, according to some estimates, it was not put into mass production. Its successor, the T-54, received more advanced armament, but in reality, that's the limit of this design.
                    3. The IS-2 is a technologically advanced, well-armed, reliable, protected, and armed vehicle. However, it has two drawbacks as a main battle tank:
                    - small ammunition load;
                    - low rate of fire in a head-on tank battle
                    4. The IS-3 is an interesting vehicle from the point of view of its protection concept, but it is not fully developed, and most importantly, the artificial limitation on weight and armored volume does not allow the combat qualities of this vehicle to claim any significant step in relation to the IS-2.
                    5. The IS-4 is a conceptually flawed machine with extreme parameters, but a number of technical solutions look promising.
                    From all this, it was necessary to determine which tank should be further developed. The experience of the Panther, IS-2, and Pershing clearly indicates that, once a number of issues are resolved, a mass-produced heavy tank has incomparably greater potential than the medium Komets and T-44s. Therefore, the line of a powerfully armed, highly mobile, and optimally protected heavy tank should be pursued throughout.
                    The picture is somewhat confused by all sorts of monsters in the form of super-heavy vehicles like the Jagdtiger, IS-4, Conqueror, and the heavy Americans, but the very fiasco of this direction indicates that the solution to the problem of the modern tank has some optimum.
                    Relying on a cheap medium tank in a total war might not work. If, having suffered massive losses, our tank forces can't quickly drive the enemy back into the Atlantic, we won't be given a second chance, and our bombed-out production won't be able to organize timely replacements. So what then? Will we roll back to the East? Lend-Lease isn't in sight, and the enemy is also capable of amphibious assaults.
                    1. 0
                      20 July 2026 07: 47
                      Quote: Victor Leningradets
                      The IS-4 is a conceptually flawed vehicle with extreme parameters.

                      So what did the military customers expect based on the research described? They got impenetrability... a turret with variable thickness... and a tank weighing 60 tons, and then they complained about it not being able to cross bridges, the transmission failing, the engine underpowered... The IS-4's inferiority isn't the fault of the designers and factory workers, but the incompetence of the customer, who wanted to fight in an invulnerable tank and not worry about the enemy, and that's not how it works.
                      1. 0
                        20 July 2026 08: 09
                        The IS-4 story is murky. Zaltsman and the GABTU played a crucial role here. It was perfectly clear to everyone except the Austrian artist that creating some kind of invulnerable tank was an impossible task. The designers have only one criticism: a loss of moderation and conscience. But, oddly enough, there was a silver lining to the whole affair. The transmission, designed for such loads, proved itself to be a success.
                      2. 0
                        20 July 2026 08: 56
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        The history of the IS-4 is murky.

                        Isn't the Armata a bit shady? The Americans were already developing a similar tank concept back in the 70s. Well, we're making the same mistake... we got crew protection, but the tank's survivability is terrible. The gun is practically unprotected, as are all the other equipment, which would be damaged even by a nearby high-explosive fragmentation shell, as well as by a small-caliber rapid-fire automatic cannon. The crew is alive to be surrendered. But it weighs 60 tons and has the dimensions of a King Tiger. The tracks are still easily damaged by mines, although they could have been focused on the more resistant double-decker...
                    2. +4
                      20 July 2026 12: 14
                      Good afternoon!
                      Quote: Victor Leningradets
                      This concept did not work for us in the summer of 1941.

                      No:))) In 1941, it was not the concept that failed, but our inability to use tanks, infantry and artillery together.
                      Quote: Victor Leningradets
                      The main problem with medium tanks is that they're cheap and ideologically expendable. One march, one battle. You're lucky to survive, but the tank is still a wreck.

                      I understand everything, your arguments are sound, and I never doubted you.
                      But, in my opinion, there is a point that you are not taking into account.
                      What was the 1945 war like? It was an encirclement maneuver. A classic military operation looks like this: the enemy's defenses are breached by combined arms armies with attached heavy tank battalions/regiments, then tank armies are introduced into the breach. And a tank army is made up of medium tanks. Why? Because tank armies need speed and tempo—they must complete the encirclement of the enemy before the latter can deploy relief forces.
                      When a tank advances through the rear, it encounters little resistance, striking the enemy on the move, and any localized qualitative advantage (like a random Tiger battalion) is immediately overwhelmed by its quantitative advantage. Of course, this leads to increased tank losses, but they are repaid a hundredfold by the encirclement of some enemy forces. Then, having completed the encirclement, the tank goes on the defensive—and the medium tanks rely on ambushes, where their weak armor is no longer so fatal.
                      What will a MBT gain over a heavy tank? Yes, far more tanks will survive head-on collisions. But due to its heaviness and poor cross-country ability (limitations on bridges, for example), it's not suited for high-speed sprints over long distances. If I remember correctly, the IS-3's suspension problems were quite serious. So, we'll save the tanks, reduce losses, but fail to carry out the encirclement operation. Ultimately, by abandoning deep maneuver operations, we'll maximize, not minimize, the army's losses and reduce its ability to defeat the enemy.
                    3. +1
                      20 July 2026 12: 14
                      Good afternoon!
                      Quote: Victor Leningradets
                      This concept did not work for us in the summer of 1941.

                      No:))) In 1941, it was not the concept that failed, but our inability to use tanks, infantry and artillery together.
                      Quote: Victor Leningradets
                      The main problem with medium tanks is that they're cheap and ideologically expendable. One march, one battle. You're lucky to survive, but the tank is still a wreck.

                      I understand everything, your arguments are sound, and I never doubted you.
                      But, in my opinion, there is a point that you are not taking into account.
                      What was the 1945 war like? It was an encirclement maneuver. A classic military operation looks like this: the enemy's defenses are breached by combined arms armies with attached heavy tank battalions/regiments, then tank armies are introduced into the breach. And a tank army is made up of medium tanks. Why? Because tank armies need speed and tempo—they must complete the encirclement of the enemy before the latter can deploy relief forces.
                      When a tank advances through the rear, it encounters little resistance, striking the enemy on the move, and any localized qualitative advantage (like a random Tiger battalion) is immediately overwhelmed by its quantitative advantage. Of course, this leads to increased tank losses, but they are repaid a hundredfold by the encirclement of some enemy forces. Then, having completed the encirclement, the tank goes on the defensive—and the medium tanks rely on ambushes, where their weak armor is no longer so fatal.
                      What will a MBT gain over a heavy tank? Yes, far more tanks will survive head-on collisions. But due to its heaviness and poor cross-country ability (limitations on bridges, for example), it's not suited for high-speed sprints over long distances. If I remember correctly, the IS-3's suspension problems were quite serious. So, we'll save the tanks, reduce losses, but fail to carry out the encirclement operation. Ultimately, by abandoning deep maneuver operations, we'll maximize, not minimize, the army's losses and reduce its ability to defeat the enemy.
                      1. +3
                        20 July 2026 14: 00
                        Thank you, I'll come back to this topic sometime.
                        It's just that tank designers were involved in that problem of thermal stress in submarine nuclear-powered submarine components (thankfully, they were from the same plant and had the necessary clearance). Unlike us, they masterfully solved problems of cyclic fatigue and predicted fragmentation in the event of a severe accident.
                        We worked together for months, and I heard plenty of stories. But one thing they said for sure: nothing should be taken on faith, only analysis, as impartial as possible.
                        Well, they told us, in particular, about the IS-3 and T-54 mod. 46. The tanks were frankly crude, and at the top, when all the deadlines had passed, they began handing out elephants.
                        The IS-3 was intended to gradually transition into the IS-3M class, with planetary gearboxes on both sides, a seven-wheel suspension per side, a 750-hp engine, a 122-mm gun with enhanced ballistics and a rammer, and more.
                        But Morozov hit a nerve: how much would this miracle cost? A medium tank is a whole other story – three times cheaper, no fancy bells and whistles needed, we'll have it perfected in a year. We can build thousands, and if they burn it, no problem. In short, he pushed through his idea and then spent seven years actually perfecting the vehicle.
                        There were warning signs that things weren't going well. The fact that the Acht-Acht followers were dangerous for these tanks, and the fact that the time for daring raids was over, and most importantly, they would have to fight mostly with vehicles prepared before the war.
                        And yes, everyone said the 40-ton limit was an artificial one, that all tanks had already outgrown it. But Morozov (he was a brilliant engineer, after all) made the T-62 on a bet, and then the T-64, and they both met the limit. True, the price was reliability and ergonomics, but the performance chart was mesmerizing.
                        And when they started to figure out what kind of tanks were actually needed, then the Nizhny Tagil developments on the mobilization vehicle and the Leningrad developments on the gas turbine power plant came into play.
                      2. +1
                        20 July 2026 15: 31
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        Thank you, I'll come back to this topic sometime.

                        Excellent, I’ll be happy to read it and let’s talk!
                  2. MSN
                    0
                    20 July 2026 16: 34
                    Yes, you are right, it was A-19.

                    Same ballistics, same shells. 165mm penetration at a 90-degree impact angle. Yeah, right... I wrote about the BS-3, too.
                    In my opinion, the desire to jump into a discussion without understanding it, with your own—the only correct, of course—opinion, is delusional. However, I'm not insisting.

                    "And who was it that penetrated the Tiger B's frontal armor?" is a question. Not the only correct one, nor an opinion. It's a question.
                    The debate centered on whether the USSR should have developed a MBT based on a heavy tank at the end of the war and immediately after. My esteemed opponent believes it should have, by improving protection to a level that would make it impervious to advanced guns and increasing the armor space for crew comfort. I believe it should not have, as even the King Tiger won't achieve invulnerability, and it would have required a great deal of sacrifice.

                    The first true Soviet main battle tank, in terms of armor, was the equivalent of a fast heavy tank. 305/405mm of armor in the mid-60s was practically invulnerable in real combat, just like the Tiger B. Creating something like that before the advent of 700+ engines was unrealistic.
                    1. 0
                      21 July 2026 07: 37
                      Quote: MSN
                      Same ballistics, same shells. 165mm penetration at a 90-degree impact angle. Yeah, right... I wrote about the BS-3, too.

                      (shrugging) The 1944 report on the results of the shelling showed otherwise
                      Quote: MSN
                      The first real MBT of the Union in terms of armor and was an analogue of a fast heavy tank.

                      Who argues.
                      1. MSN
                        0
                        21 July 2026 12: 08
                        It would be nice if you answered it yourself.
                        2) If Alexey's data is about explosive shells, then, alas, they are not representative - the entire history of the Russian Nuclear Forces is evidence of this. Simply put, Even if they penetrated armor during tests, they almost never did so in combat., and this either means that there were too few tests and chance played a role, or that the tubes and explosive shells used in the tests were of better quality.
                        Simply put, the fact remains: Japanese shells in the Russian Nuclear Forces failed to penetrate armor, and no tests can disprove this. If the test results were different, we must seek the cause—the difference between the shells tested and those actually used in combat.

                        You don't like test data, neither on performance nor on armor penetration. Obviously, you have numerous photos and videos of Tiger B tanks' penetrated frontal armor. Share it.
                      2. 0
                        21 July 2026 12: 54
                        Quote: MSN
                        It would be nice if you answered it yourself.

                        The answer is very simple.
                        Quote: MSN
                        Simply put, even if they penetrated armor during testing, they almost never did so in combat.

                        We have dozens of cases of Japanese large-caliber shells hitting Russian armor (recorded and described cases), but there are almost no cases where the shell penetrated this armor.
                        Now, I don’t know whether it’s conscious or mistaken, you’re distorting the facts and reducing everything to the fact that I allegedly don’t like trials.
                        Quote: MSN
                        You don't like the test data, neither the running data nor the armor penetration data.

                        Firstly, if you have already read my articles, you should know that in the cycle
                        https://topwar.ru/256153-snarjady-i-bronja-russko-japonskoj-vojny-uroki-i-vyvody.html (финальная статья) я как раз и определял бронепробиваемость через результаты, достигнутые на испытаниях. То есть испытания я как раз-таки люблю.
                        Secondly, since you have read my articles, you might know that I only ignore test results when there is clear evidence that refutes the test results.
                        Thirdly, the quote you took from me was said in a conversation where there is no clarity at all about how these tests were carried out.
                        Quote: MSN
                        2) If Alexey's data is with explosive shells, then, alas, they are not representative

                        Because if they were without explosives, then such shells should have penetrated the armor.
                        Quote: MSN
                        Obviously you have numerous photos and videos of Tiger B's foreheads being pierced. Please share.

                        No. And if you really want to follow my logic, then YOU should present numerous photos of A-19 and BS-3 shells striking the Tiger B's frontal turret, which failed to penetrate the armor mentioned. Once you present these, you'll be able to prove that the 1944 test results were "unrepresentative," as I said about the Japanese tests—based on a wealth of factual material.
                        Good luck
                      3. MSN
                        0
                        21 July 2026 15: 26
                        I don't even need to do anything.
                        We have dozens of cases of Japanese large-caliber shells hitting Russian armor (recorded and described cases), but there are almost no cases where the shell penetrated this armor.
                        Now, I don’t know whether it’s conscious or mistaken, you’re distorting the facts and reducing everything to the fact that I allegedly don’t like trials.

                        We have dozens of cases of Japanese hits (Soviet and allied) large-caliber (all calibers) shells into Russian (German) armor (recorded and described cases), while there are almost no cases when a shell penetrated this armor. (No)
        2. +1
          20 July 2026 03: 59
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          T-10, but the low technological level of this tank put an end to its mass production.

          What do you mean? They produced fifteen hundred... Or is that not mass production?
          1. +1
            20 July 2026 06: 03
            In other words, production must be capable of producing 1500 of these tanks (if it's the main battle tank) in two months. That's at least 9 per year.
            The T-10 (not the T-10M) suffers from an outdated gun, transmission, and welded hull. The engine is also at its limit. The road wheels don't provide dynamic performance.
            Taking into account the labor costs for rolling, cutting, and welding, such a tank can only be assembled in three factories and in homeopathic quantities.
            In this sense, vehicles with cast hulls can be assembled at any tank factory or mobilized enterprise.
    2. +3
      19 July 2026 17: 31
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      Since the current version of the T-44 looked extremely weak as the main tank here, the IS had to become the main tank.

      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      The IS-3 concept was intended to be a traditional breakthrough tank, virtually invulnerable to enemy anti-tank artillery and tank guns.

      You're thinking in a nutshell, and please don't take offense. How can a breakthrough tank become the backbone of armored forces? And what happens after a breakthrough? Tanks are a means of exploiting success, so who the heck needs heavy tanks there? Operational space and defensive density plummet, and what isn't taken immediately is outflanked, and the armored vehicles are sent into a raid. And the T-44 is an absolutely and uniquely ideal vehicle. Even during a breakthrough, the T-44 serves as a second line tank; we don't need to rely solely on IS tanks for that.
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      In my opinion, at that time, the division of tanks into heavy and medium was still relatively justified, but making the main tank out of a heavy one...

      Absolutely right, Viktor just doesn't fully understand the process of where and how a Shock Army (UA) should operate, what it should contain, and what tank destroyers are. The Germans, for example, focused their tank destroyers, mechanized infantry, and tank divisions on combining these two functions. That's why they stalled, just as we'd perfected our anti-tank defense and the anti-tank regiments gained confidence, resilience, and experience. The Germans were chasing the Allies (in the Ardennes), but we quieted down after the summer of 1943. And if they did make a move (at Balaton), they were quickly silenced.
      1. +1
        19 July 2026 18: 22
        We didn't have a solid anti-tank defense in 1945 either. Just like all other participants in WWII, by the way. And the counterattack near Budapest was more powerful than the offensive in the Ardennes.
        But that's beside the point. The Germans had nothing to build on their initial success with.
        Deep penetrations by the defenseless T-44/54s were simply impossible due to enemy air superiority. Even if they temporarily eliminated air power, the Allies had sufficient means to destroy the poorly protected tanks. The Korean War demonstrated that relying on mass numbers was not justified.
        1. +2
          19 July 2026 19: 23
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          We did not establish anti-tank defense in 1945 either.

          What about the Battle of Kursk? And Balaton?
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          The Germans had no way to build on their initial success.

          Well, yes, when the 6th SS Tank Army turns into a six-tank unit, there's nothing left to develop. There's not much left of the 2nd Tank Army.

          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          The counterattack near Budapest was more powerful than the offensive in the Ardennes.

          So in the Ardennes the Germans attacked with a force 2,5 times stronger, and at the same time the 6th SS Tank Army advanced almost a hundred kilometers (and if the bad weather had held out longer).
          And at Balaton, the 3rd Ukrainian Front was inferior to the Germans (slightly) in everything except artillery. Two field tanks and two tank destroyers attacked. Even the latter managed to penetrate a couple dozen kilometers, losing all their equipment. And when Fedya was given 6 tank destroyers (ours), within a couple of weeks Vienna was in his hands.
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          And deep breakthroughs by the defenseless T-44/54s were simply impossible due to the enemy's air superiority.

          And how did things turn out in the Ardennes? In 1945, we had better air power and more tanks.
          1. 0
            20 July 2026 06: 07
            Don't confuse the counterattack near Budapest in December/January with the Balaton Operation in March. There, the advance was greater than in the Ardennes, and our troops were at risk of serious encirclement.
            1. +1
              20 July 2026 10: 23
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              Don't confuse the counterattack near Budapest in December/January

              You're getting this confused. It was a frontline operation aimed at breaking the blockade, and by the way, the advance was somewhat slower than in the Ardennes. Tolbukhin managed it on his own, and the Germans were struck down by a kondraty.
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              Our troops were in danger of being seriously encircled.

              There was no threat to us; the Germans struck and outflanked several of our divisions, penetrating our defenses, and that was all. And Fedya had enough of his reserves (he didn't even bother headquarters; they had no time for him), while holding back the 100-ton force in Budapest, to push the Germans back to their starting points.
              But at Balaton there was a strategic offensive (that's where the Germans had superiority in all respects except artillery), and with the corresponding consequences.
          2. +1
            21 July 2026 11: 26
            Quote: chenia
            So in the Ardennes the Germans attacked with a force 2,5 times stronger, and at the same time the 6th SS Tank Army advanced almost a hundred kilometers (and if the bad weather had held out longer).

            If the bad weather had held out longer, nothing would have changed dramatically. There were simply too many Allies. And what's the point of advancing down the right flank if the center is stuck, and on the left, the Germans are being beaten in their favorite way—holding Bastogne's "corner post," while Patton, who had already arrived, is preparing to cut off the wedge.
            Quote: chenia
            And how did it turn out in the Ardennes?

            The weather, sir... smile
            Quote: chenia
            In 1945, we had better aviation and more tanks.

            Unfortunately, the Allies had one argument in 1945 that the USSR couldn't counter: strikes on communications centers with B-17s, covered by Mustangs. The USSR had virtually no high-altitude fighters. And all of the Red Army's supplies in Europe relied on a few railways (if I remember correctly, D. Shein wrote that in April 1945, the 1st Baltic Fleet had one direct railway line).
            1. 0
              21 July 2026 17: 01
              Quote: Alexey RA
              If the bad weather had lasted longer, nothing would have changed dramatically.

              Why were you arguing about that? The Germans would have advanced a couple dozen kilometers. The Wehrmacht could have thrown off the Allies in June 1944, but their generals had already decided who would surrender and waited until July 20th. Until then, they were completely stupid. Only when Hitler, with piano strings, instilled love for the Reich, and for himself personally, did they begin to move, but it was already too late.
              And that's not what the argument was about. The Germans, having made a narrow breakthrough to Budapest, could have ended up encircled themselves (with such perky flanks, worse than the 2nd UAV at Leningrad). Tolbukhin and his main forces were occupied there, with Budapest. But Balaton is a different matter. And the Germans, with their Panthers and Tigers at short range, couldn't do anything. And Viktor claims that our tank defenses have remained almost at the level of 1941, when the Germans tore them to shreds in threes.
              Quote: Alexey RA
              In 1945, there was one argument that the USSR could not counter - attacks on communication centers by B-17 fighter jets under the cover of Mustangs.

              Bombing crossings and railway lines from 10 km away is a daunting task (and the payload is lower than that of the Yak-130). The stations were unloaded in forested areas. And then there's the best air defense, tanks on the airfields. The Allies would have been quickly destroyed. But with the Allies and the Wehrmacht in close quarters, that's a task we definitely can't handle.
        2. 0
          26 July 2026 01: 30
          The Korean War showed that relying on mass numbers does not pay off.

          And where in the Korean theater of operations are you planning to use tank armies?
  5. +1
    19 July 2026 11: 28
    By the way, solving the problem of protection in accordance with the probability of hitting a given element of the tower's surface is not at all an application of the finite element method.
    I had to work with him quite a bit in 1988-1990 during the calculation and experimental determination of the thermal stress state of submarine equipment during the emergency commissioning of a nuclear power plant.
  6. 0
    19 July 2026 14: 46
    Every poison has an antidote. The IS-3, too, was not a completely invulnerable armored vehicle. However, its first real combat test occurred not on the battlefields of World War II, but on the streets of Budapest during Operation Whirlwind, where several vehicles were destroyed. According to available information, two tanks were destroyed (one had its turret blown off by an explosion), while the rest were disabled, suffering damage to the chassis and engine. This was the tank's only use by the Soviet Armed Forces; the rest of its service was during the Middle East wars between Egypt and Israel (67 and 73), where they proved themselves to be aging vehicles, although they inflicted some losses on Jewish armored units. The Six-Day War cost the Arabs approximately 20 (figures vary) combat losses of these vehicles and over 30 units abandoned by their crews, becoming enemy trophies. But this was already a new, different war, with the use of ATGMs and modern types of artillery ammunition, which negated the advantages of the most powerful tank at the end of World War II. Yes
  7. +1
    19 July 2026 20: 06
    I don't understand anything about tank protection, but it seems to me that no armor can guarantee 100% protection for the crew.
  8. 0
    20 July 2026 10: 32
    A tank's most vulnerable spot is its tracks, no matter how armored its turret and sides are.
    Hit the tracks, the tank is immobilized, then hit the side.
    Even in the drone era, this method hasn't changed. First, a tank is immobilized, then destroyed by other drones. 90% of tanks destroyed in the NBO were first immobilized, then finished off.
    And WWII is about the same.
  9. 0
    20 July 2026 10: 48
    Vulnerability Passport: In the Tundra, there are vulnerability zones depending on the range and type of projectile.
    It is shown very clearly in the 3D model.
  10. +1
    20 July 2026 11: 12
    And here, everything is on tracing paper. I can imagine how labor-intensive that must have been! How many sleepless nights did engineers and designers spend with tracing paper and slide rules! My utmost respect!!!

    Mine is also extremely frustrating. But I don't think my Soviet colleagues spent any sleepless nights. For people skilled in these calculations, it's actually quite interesting, and several people could have done all this work in an eight-hour workday in about two weeks.
  11. 0
    20 July 2026 16: 43
    Bravo, bravo, and once again bravo to the Soviet tank-building school and its engineering school and engineers! What a country and its people.