Port Arthur as a naval base in the Russo-Japanese War: its shortcomings and alternatives

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Port Arthur as a naval base in the Russo-Japanese War: its shortcomings and alternatives


"An error made in the initial concentration of forces can hardly be corrected during the course of a campaign." Moltke. "On Strategy".



Defense of the Far East and the choice of location for the naval base


The Russian Far East is significantly remote from the center of the country, and before the construction of the Trans-Siberian Railway, the lack of roads made it difficult to transport troops there. For example, artillery The battery, which left Central Asia as an experiment in 1895, took almost a year to reach Primorye—a year minus 17 days (Oleg Airapetov, “On the Road to Collapse”).

Therefore, before the construction of the railway, Primorye was defended mainly fleet: the troops located here were transported and supplied by sea.

Due to the small number of Russian troops in Primorye, any attempt by Japan to occupy part of northern Chinese or Korean territory and transfer its army there threatened Russia with the loss of Primorye: reinforcements could not be brought in by land, and the navy would not be able to simultaneously defend the coast and prevent a landing.

In Japan, the construction of the Trans-Siberian Railway was considered unacceptable, since after its completion, Russia's power in the Pacific Ocean, which had previously been very limited, would increase significantly according to calculations at that time.

The Russian fleet's mission was to prevent the Japanese army from landing on the mainland and disrupt its supply lines if it did. Therefore, the location of the naval base, which could theoretically be located in three places, was crucial.

Vladivostok



The railway construction options are shown: green along the Amur, blue – the Tsurunkhai-Blagoveshchensk option.

In the event of war, Japanese troops would have landed in Korea, which was separated from Japan by a narrow strait. Vladivostok was far from the possible landing sites, and the Russian fleet would have been unable to prevent it.

Japanese troops could also have landed in Dalny on the very first day of the war, which would have been faster than advancing through Korean territory. This is discussed in the article "Provided Our Fleet Doesn't Interfere with the Peaceful Sea Transport of the Japanese Landing Force" (link in the appendix)—which, incidentally, doesn't idealize Port Arthur.

Vladivostok froze in winter, and for four months of the year the fleet could only sail with the aid of an icebreaker. Following it in column, the squadron would have been deprived of freedom of maneuver and, near the point of reaching open water, risked being fired upon by an enemy squadron in an advantageous position. "stick over the T" (When enemy ships line up across the course of the departing column and fire with their entire broadsides, while the latter responds only with their forward guns.) To achieve this, the Japanese only needed to know the departure time in advance and ambush the squadron at that moment.

Here is what the British naval historian Sir Julian Corbett wrote about Vladivostok as a naval base:

"Vladivostok was out of the question. True, as a naval base, it had advantages that Port Arthur lacked. Its docking facilities were better, it was more spacious, and its two entrances made a blockade more difficult. However, this last consideration gave it no strategic significance beyond serving as a base for cruisers and raiders. The only reason for concentrating the fleet was to give it the opportunity to seek a decisive battle with superior force. Allowing the enemy to attempt to blockade the fleet was out of the question. If it were concentrated in Vladivostok, it would have to put to sea at the outbreak of war and immediately seek a solution. But even for a decisive battle, the northern port was a poor starting point for the obvious reason that it was located eccentrically [that is, off-center, away from the main combat area] relative to the vital theater of operations."


The phrase "immediately seek solutions" at that time meant "engaging the enemy in a decisive battle," which required the Russian fleet to have a superior force over the Japanese, as Corbett explicitly points out. If the Japanese fleet prevailed, the Russian fleet could only play a supporting role. The army would then have to shoulder the burden of defense, which became possible only after the Trans-Siberian Railway was completed and its capacity was increased (the second track, the Amur Line, was built in the mid-1910s).

The Trans-Siberian Railway's single track, with a gap at Lake Baikal that had not been closed by early 1904 (the Circum-Baikal Railway had not yet been completed, and cargo had to be shipped across the lake), prevented the rapid delivery of troops. Therefore, had the fleet been based in Vladivostok, events would likely have unfolded along the same lines as they did at Port Arthur: the Japanese, having landed, would have pushed back the small Russian forces and besieged the base itself—the siege of Vladivostok would have been little different from the siege of Port Arthur.

Moreover, when based in Port Arthur, the Russian fleet slowed down the deployment of the Japanese army, but if based in Primorye, it would not have been able to do this.

If based in Primorye, the best port would be Wrangel Bay:
  • she hardly froze;
  • was further from the border than Vladivostok;
  • Nearby were the Suchan coal mines, individual layers of which were not inferior to the English cardiff.

In this case, the railway to Vladivostok had to be built through its own territory, otherwise it would be easy to cut and the naval base would be cut off.

But if Port Arthur had still belonged to China, a Japanese landing there would have meant war with China, from which China, considered a Russian ally, had in reality withdrawn. China would then have diverted part of the Japanese army, thereby aiding the Russian army.

On the other side of the Tsushima Strait: Port Arthur or Dalniy



These ports had the advantage over Vladivostok of being ice-free. The Russian naval plan for the war with Japan, drawn up with the fleet based in Port Arthur in mind, stated the following:

“It is impossible to prevent the landing of the Japanese army on the east coast of Korea with our naval forces, given its proximity to Japan and its possession of a strong and convenient base - the Fusan-Tsushima-Sasebo-Kure barrier, since 1) Port Arthur is 600 miles from the east coast, while only 100 miles from Japan and 2) the initiative ... of offensive actions at sea will be on the side of Japan.”


The only way to prevent a landing anywhere was to be in the Tsushima Strait, but to do that, a base was needed there. The fleet couldn't remain at sea permanently: while coal and food supplies could still be delivered, the machinery would require repairs, and the fleet would be forced to return to Port Arthur.

If, however, part of the fleet were kept in the strait and periodically replaced, then the enemy would defeat the Russian fleet piecemeal.

In his report on practical exercises in strategy, “The War between Russia and Japan in 1905,” N. L. Klado mentioned the task of capturing the port of Mozampo in the south of Korea to support the combat operations of the Russian fleet (see map).

Admiral Fyodor Dubasov, commander of the Pacific Squadron in 1897–1899, gave the following assessment of Port Arthur in a note to the head of the Naval Ministry, P. P. Tyrtov, in 1895:

“Port Arthur is completely inadequate, being five hundred and fifty miles from the middle of the Korean Strait, the junction of communications between Siberia, China, Korea and Japan, and does not provide the opportunity to observe, much less command, these communications.
Then, being away from our natural line of defense along the coast of the Sea of ​​Japan, and being at a distance from it of from six hundred to a thousand miles, it cannot serve as a support for our naval operations along that coast, leaving it completely open to enemy attack.
In particular, the entire southeastern coast of Korea, with the Japanese outpost of Fusan existing there, remains open to capture with impunity.
And, located six hundred to twelve hundred miles from the northern ports of our main enemy, Japan, our fleet at Port Arthur would be completely unable to hinder or even threaten a Japanese fleet advance toward the Korean or our coast. This base doesn't even cover the western coast of Korea or the approaches to Seoul...
Finally, being located at a distance of one thousand eighty miles from our main base - Vladivostok, Port Arthur remains, as it were, completely cut off from it, since the line of communication, on the one hand, has no intermediate strongholds, and on the other, is exposed along its entire length to attack by the Japanese fleet.
The connection of Port Arthur with the Siberian Railway will not eliminate these inconveniences...
On the peninsula itself, this connection, due to its insignificant width, can always be destroyed by an attack from the sea by an enterprising enemy.”

(Quote from Galenin's book "Tsushima as a sign of the end of Russian stories. ")

The addressee of the note, Admiral P. P. Tyrtov, head of the Naval Ministry, agreed with Dubasov:

“Port Arthur is… important for our influence on Northern China, but… for our influence on Japan, its strategic importance… is insignificant… both due to its distance from Japan and due to the existence of magnificent bays in the south of Korea, which would allow the enemy fleet to establish itself there firmly and stop all communication between Vladivostok and Port Arthur…”

(From Oleg Airapetov's article "Port Arthur. On the Creation of a Naval Base and Fortress.")

Admiral Makarov wrote in his note “Opinion on the Organization of the Defense of Port Arthur” in 1900:

"Japan will occupy Korea first, and our fleet, far from their bases, will be unable to prevent the Japanese from landing anywhere. Having occupied Korea, the Japanese will move toward the Kwantung Peninsula and concentrate more forces there than we do... The fall of Port Arthur will be a terrible blow."

(Quoted from Shirokorad's book "The Fall of Port Arthur." From here on, my emphasis.)

At the strategic naval games at the Nikolaev Academy, the following response was given:

"...the forced assignment of Kwantung, due to its weakness, as the primary objective of the enemy's operations forces our fleet to defend a land fortress; and, as it is not suited to it, this task can only be accomplished to a limited extent. For the same reason, the fleet is diverted from its primary missions and finds itself in a very unfavorable starting position for naval operations."

Kuropatkin, a poor commander but former chief of staff to Skobelev, in a note entitled “On the advisability of Russia’s occupation of Northern Manchuria” in November 1903, listed some of the shortcomings of Port Arthur and proposed exchanging it for any territory in Northern Manchuria.

Our contemporary, Sergei Vasiliev, in his article “The Port Arthur Tragedy as an Example of Domestic Corruption” writes:

"The process of creating the Russian fortress of Port Arthur resembles a game of poker, which Britain won against Russia by desperately bluffing: 'If you don't take it, we will!'" It was necessary to prevent Nicholas II from strengthening Russia's position in the Pacific Ocean, which was brilliantly accomplished, for Port Arthur did not strengthen, but rather weakened, those positions.
Shirokorad believes that the crucial matter of choosing a naval base fell into the hands of two Russian naval amateurs. I disagree: the true "professional" here was British envoy Nicholas O'Connor, who pitched the idea, lucrative for London, to occupy this godforsaken location.
If you look at the map, it is easy to see that the Liaodong Peninsula, located in the depths of the Yellow Sea, cannot control any ocean communications at all, but can effectively divert resources and disperse Russia's forces along the entire coastline, which now stretches for thousands of kilometers."



The author of the article cites the opinion of army specialists who did not find any military significance for Port Arthur:

"...If Port Arthur is important to Russia as a stronghold and the head of a railway route, it will only be if this route has global transit significance. Protecting the southern branch of the East China Railway, which is primarily of local importance, with such an expensive asset as Port Arthur, with its fortifications, navy, and 30-strong garrison, is completely unnecessary for Russia, economically speaking."

When discussing Port Arthur, two of its most important features are often omitted:

  • due to its size, it could not accommodate all the ships of the Pacific squadron;
  • It was only possible to pass between the inner and outer roadsteads during high tide, during which 8-9 large ships, that is, only part of a large squadron, managed to pass through - for which Admiral Chikhachev called Port Arthur a trap.


Pay attention to the inscriptions on the map: “dry place at low tide” and “drying place”.

Therefore, during the Japanese attack, the fleet was located in the unprotected outer roadstead, which led to the destruction of the most powerful ships during the Japanese mine attack.

Soviet military theorist M. A. Petrov writes:

"The fleet received a port... which, by its very nature, was quite inconvenient. Port Arthur had only one outlet to the sea, accessible to ships only at high tide. Its outer roadstead was completely open. This alone made it unsuitable as a base during wartime, or else necessitated the enormous expense of deepening and digging a second outlet."

Thus, basing in Port Arthur, given its remoteness from Korea, was not suitable for preventing an enemy landing on the mainland, and given the restrictions on entry and exit, it was not suitable for a decisive struggle for supremacy at sea.

Although Port Arthur was connected to the country's territory by a railway line, Admiral Birilev, in a note to Bilderling, called it "a colony cut off from the country."

In 1900, three-quarters of the railway was destroyed by the Boxer Rebels. Lukoyanov writes: "In 1900, the CER was guarded by 11 men, with guns, armored trains, and gunboats, and it was planned to increase their number to 16." Shirokorad cites a guard of 25 in 1903, when the Boxer Rebels were no longer in existence, but the Honghuzi remained, operating even on Russian territory.

If the Japanese landing in Korea wasn't prevented, this railway route would be cut. Sea transport was cheaper and allowed for the transfer of larger quantities of cargo, so in peacetime, Port Arthur was supplied by sea.

Our contemporaries sometimes write about the possible occupation of Port Arthur by England and the creation of "armies of Chinese sepoys" against Russia. But after the two Opium Wars, the Chinese saw Russia as a lesser evil than England, and there was a strong movement among them against any Europeans, which led to the Boxer Rebellion. For the English, arming those who hated them would have been an act "to their own detriment."

As for the Indian sepoys, "the Anglo-Indian army could not send more than 35 people outside India, as the war with the Boers proved" (Ayrapetov, "On the Road to Collapse"); English power there was not firm, and some Indians pinned their hopes for liberation on the Russians.

Finally, protecting the port from British capture didn't require its long-term occupation—the very occupation Russia actually achieved by bribing Chinese officials and threatening military force. Moreover, it wasn't necessary to make Port Arthur a major naval base.

South of the Korean Peninsula


“If Russia were to take possession of a port on the Korean coast that would simultaneously oversee two seas—the Korean and Japanese—and command the straits, then it would become the mistress of the eastern seas.” Elisée Reclus, geographer and historian.

Soviet naval theorist and historian M. A. Petrov writes in his book “Overview of the Major Campaigns and Battles of the Steam Fleet”:

"Such an inconvenient location of the Russian naval bases has more than once given rise to the desire to seize bases in the Korean Strait itself - either in Mozampo (Fusan), or on Tsushima Island, which lies in the middle of the Korean Strait (incidentally, Tsushima Island was given to the Russians under the Treaty of Beijing, but our short-sighted strategists and politicians considered it possible to renounce it under pressure from England)... But these projects were never realized."


A fleet permanently stationed in the Tsushima Strait would have prevented a Japanese landing anywhere in Korea. Japan would have needed a decisive victory in a decisive naval battle to achieve a landing.

The fleet's deployment in the strait had a limitation: according to the findings of the first strategic naval game, "War with Japan," it required the Russian fleet to be equal in strength to the Japanese. The feasibility of this requirement will be discussed below.

Even in this case, the Russian fleet would have been in a worse position - due to the backlog in repairs for battle damage and due to the more developed network of convenient Japanese naval bases.

Therefore, Admiral Makarov believed that Japan's greater repair capacity in the Pacific required compensation from a stronger Russian fleet.

Having a base in the strait did not prevent the establishment of a second base in Primorye, since one base was not enough for the fleet:

“The Japanese fleet had the following bases that could serve as a support for the conduct of the war: the first-class military port of Sasebo (in the Korea Strait), Takeshiki, Shimonoseki, Nagasaki, and the equipped ports of Maizuru, Tsuruga, Hakodate, Kure, Kobe, Osaka, Saigo, Uraga, Yokosuka (a first-class port), Yokohama, and Tokyo,” writes M.A. Petrov.

In this case, Port Arthur would remain in Chinese hands. If Japan achieved naval superiority, the navy's main base would become Wrangel Bay (or Vladivostok), and the base in the strait would become a forward base, constraining the enemy's actions like a fortress, requiring the diversion of its forces.

Moreover, only this base prevented the exit from Russian Primorye to the Pacific Ocean (the Kuril Islands belonged to Japan).

The supporters of a naval base in the Tsushima Strait were: Admiral Ivan Fedorovich Likhachev, who occupied Tsushima in 1861, the Minister of the Navy A. B. Lobanov-Rostovsky (1895), the Minister of War Vannovsky (1895), and admirals Dubasov, Makarov, Gildebrandt, and Alekseev in 1897 (Galenin, “Tsushima as a Sign of the End of Russian History”).

Suitable bases in the strait were Fusan (modern-day Busan), chosen by Makarov, and Mozampo (modern-day Masan), with the island of Kargodo, which protected it and was called Eastern Gibraltar (modern-day Kojedo). Fusan and Mozampo are different ports in southern Korea; in the plan cited above, they were mistakenly identified.

Dubasov wrote in 1897:

"Our occupation of the Kargodo Archipelago, with its bay and port of Mozampo, which I have just thoroughly examined, fully resolves the issue of Russia's strategic consolidation on the shores of the Pacific Ocean. This will give us a base commanding Korea's communications with Northern China and Japan... I can fully occupy and hold them, mining the secondary passages and protecting the main ones with a squadron..."

However, on the same day the emperor issued an order to occupy Port Arthur.

Unlike Port Arthur, whose single, narrow entrance could be sealed off with fireships and which battleships could only navigate at high tide, Kargodo Bay had two entrances. The main one was 5 kilometers wide and approximately 20 meters deep, making it impossible to block. It was clearly visible from the heights of Kargodo and could be penetrated by coastal artillery, preventing the penetration of enemy minesweepers, which were impossible to attack here.

The inner bay of Kargodø Island has a depth of about 17 meters, which would allow the deployment of battleships with a draft of 8,5 meters, and its size would allow the deployment of a fleet larger than the entire Russian fleet.

Even with this basing option, for security reasons, the Trans-Siberian Railway would have to be built on its own territory—or the Tsurukhaituy-Blagoveshchensk option would have to be adopted, with the annexation of the surrounding territory.

The possibility of having a fleet on the ocean by 1904 that was not inferior to the Japanese one, and the comparative combat effectiveness of the fleets


As we see, in order to successfully combat the Japanese fleet, the Russian fleet—regardless of the location of its base—had to be equal in strength.

According to the 1899 shipbuilding program, Russia was supposed to have a fleet comparable to Japan's in the Pacific Ocean by 1905. Russia was late compared to Japan, as Finance Minister Witte convinced the Tsar that, according to his own sources, the Japanese fleet would not be ready for war until 1905.

Russia had every opportunity to build a fleet simultaneously with the Japanese:
  • the inevitability of war became known already in 1895;
  • the state of Russian finances was much better than Japanese ones;
  • Russia itself built warships of all types, while Japan by 1904 could only build light cruisers;
  • Russia, like Japan, could build ships abroad.

Some argue that the Japanese navy was so superior in quality that it would have won in any case. However, this view is not shared by the 1930s military theorist and historian M. A. Petrov, a captain of the second rank before the revolution who graduated from the naval cadet corps in 1905—thus a living witness of the era, having formed as an officer during the war itself. Nor is it shared by the historian V. L. Kofman, who is convinced of the approximate qualitative equality of the fleets; and the canal. naval-manual, who compared the combat training of both fleets.

But in almost all combat engagements, the Japanese fleet was superior in numbers, which allowed it to win and accumulate experience. By Tsushima, it had accumulated a year's worth of warfare, while the 2nd Pacific Squadron lacked it. However, it wasn't this that proved decisive in the battle, but rather its superiority in numbers and speed.

The Japanese fleet gained numerical superiority in 1901, after Chukhnin's detachment left for the Baltic. After the commissioning of the armored cruisers of the class Garibaldi (Nissin и Kasuga) this superiority increased by slightly more than a third—and this superiority was precisely what was considered a prerequisite for victory at the time. The initial, unexpected Japanese strike was also of great significance.

Supply and defense of the naval base in Kargod


Kargodo (Mozampo) becomes the naval base if the Russian fleet is equal in strength to the Japanese. If the Japanese fleet is superior, the Russian fleet will be based in Primorye, and Kargodo, as a naval fortress, must be prepared to withstand a year-long siege, during which time relief will arrive from the Baltic.

Supply of the Pacific Fleet based in Kargod


The railway line across Korea has been under construction since 1895, and a branch line from Vladivostok could be built to the intersection. It would be no longer than the South Manchuria Railway, which is unnecessary in this scenario. However, this line was not operational until after the outbreak of hostilities, so this option remains for the future.

The naval fortress could receive provisions from southern Korea, and coal and ammunition via guarded convoys from Vladivostok. (In reality, the coal was delivered by British merchant ships.)

The sea route had advantages over the railway:
  • sea ​​vessels carried more cargo than railways, so it would be enough to conduct convoys once every few months;
  • In order to intercept the convoy, the enemy would have to, without knowing the exact route, first organize a search at sea, and then manage to catch up with the convoy;
  • Unlike the railway route, the sea route is invulnerable to sabotage.

Auxiliary cruisers with a speed of 19,5 knots and high seaworthiness could serve as supply transports. "Lena", "Angara", Rion, which most Japanese cruisers would not have been able to catch, as this required a speed of more than 20 knots.

To intercept the convoy, it was necessary to be located between Vladivostok and Mozampo. The Japanese naval bases listed by M.A. Petrov were located as follows:
  • 4 on the east coast (Tokyo, Yokohama, Yokosuka, Uraga);
  • 3 in the Inland Sea of ​​Japan (Kure, Kobe, Osaka);
  • 5 in the Korea Strait (Sasebo, Takeshiki, Shimonoseki, Nagasaki, Saigo);
  • 2 north of the Tsushima Strait, on the Japanese coast of the Sea of ​​Japan - that is, on the route of the Russian convoy from Vladivostok (Maizuru and Tsuruga);
  • 1 opposite Vladivostok (Hakodate).

The Hakodate base was out of the question: if it was used, the Japanese would also face the issue of supply, and while there, their fleet would have to catch up with the Russian convoy, which would be impossible given the great distance between Hakodate and Vladivostok.

It's not worth counting on knowing the convoy's departure date in advance and intercepting it in advance: reconnaissance might fail or fail to transmit the data in time, the Japanese fleet might not have time to use it, and the data itself might change later.

Only two ports remain for basing, allowing the interception of Russian convoys: Maizuru and Tsuruga, located along the convoy’s route.

But Kargodo, as a naval fortress, needed to have provisions for a year of siege, and the fleet needed several peacetime ammunition supplies. Given this, the fleet at Kargodo could avoid worrying about supplies for six months.

However, with the Japanese fleet based in Maizuru or Tsuruga, Japan's most important trade routes, all of which ran beyond the Tsushima Strait in the south and southeast of the country, would remain defenseless. In this case, nothing would prevent the Russian fleet from sailing south and raiding Japanese ports. This would be far more painful than stopping nominally neutral ships carrying contraband at sea (which would result in protests and pressure from their host countries), whereas attacking enemy ports is a legitimate objective in war.

This means the Japanese fleet must be based south of the Russian base at Kargodo, otherwise it will be unable to intercept the fast Russian cruisers heading south. But then the likelihood of intercepting Russian convoys becomes negligible.

For the Japanese fleet, even basing on Tsushima is questionable: it is justified for blockading the significantly weaker Russian fleet, but if the forces are equal, it will allow Russian cruisers to go south, to the developed trade routes and ports of Japan.

To conduct a convoy, a Russian escort detachment could leave Mozampo, reach Vladivostok, pick up already loaded transports and return back.

To intercept a convoy, the Japanese must know its departure date in advance, freely pass by the Russian base (which is only possible if the Russian fleet is completely passive), and be able to meet the convoy at sea.

There are few Japanese cruisers capable of catching ships at 19,5 knots. Most Japanese armored cruisers can travel at 20 knots, and given their poor seaworthiness, they would be slower, meaning they would be unable to catch the convoy.

This can be done by 4 armored cruisers of the 3rd detachment and, possibly, Otova, which entered service in September 1904. But they do not have the strength to interfere with a well-guarded convoy.

Another four cruisers have a speed rating of 20 knots, which isn't fast enough to catch Russian transports during daylight hours, and at night they can easily outrun a faster pursuer. However, they have no real speed advantage: like armored cruisers, they are unseaworthy due to their heavy artillery load.

A rare case may arise when the Japanese come directly towards the convoy, and in order to break through, it will have to accept a fight - for which armored cruisers are needed.

Japanese armored cruisers, according to their creator F. Watts, were small battleships, for which they, like large battleships, paid with worse seaworthiness.

This means that Russian armored cruisers must either be equal to them in strength or have numerical superiority, and it is advisable to conduct the convoy in rough seas, when it will gain an advantage in speed and combat capability due to its better seaworthiness.

During the passage of the convoy, the main forces of the Russian fleet must send reconnaissance to the Tsushima Strait and, in the event of detection of Japanese forces moving in the direction of the convoy, act according to the circumstances.

At night, the convoy could be attacked by destroyers, meaning the fleet must have fast cruisers armed with 120mm artillery. The 152mm caliber is significantly less suitable for counter-torpedo warfare: one 152mm gun weighs the same as two 120mm guns, has a lower rate of fire and ammunition capacity, and takes longer to turn.

Thus, a fleet with a strong cruiser component is needed—such as the fleet plans of Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich (1895) and Admiral Alekseyev (1897). This differs sharply from both the actual fleet composition and the one planned for 1904, as cited by N. L. Klado in his report on practical exercises in strategy, "Russia's War with Japan in 1905."

If circumstances unfold unfavorably, the Russian fleet will retreat to Primorye—the route there is half as short as the route from Port Arthur, which ran past Japanese naval bases (by traveling along this route, the Russian squadron could not avoid a battle with the Japanese). Gunboats and slow-moving ships operating near the fortress will remain at the base, and the Japanese will be forced to blockade it and likely storm it, diverting their troops.

Defense of the naval base in Kargod



At the time, references to Mozampo and Kargodo often meant both, due to their proximity. It would be better to locate the naval base directly on the island:
  • An assault on the island is difficult, as crossing a water obstacle is the most complex operation. It would be impossible if a small Russian squadron were stationed in the bay, and the entrances were defended by shore batteries. Since a gun on land has better support than the same gun on a rocking ship, it was believed that "a gun on the shore is worth a ship at sea." Even if the Japanese fleet broke into the strait, it would suffer serious losses, giving the Russian fleet the opportunity to fight for naval supremacy.
  • the island does not require a large garrison, whereas at Port Arthur the garrison consisted of two divisions and a regiment of infantry - more than 42,000 men, who were confined to the fortress due to the general shortage of Russian ground forces;
  • the island will allow for settling away from the local population, among whom there will be many Japanese agents;
  • In any case, the island of Kargodo must be defended and fortified, since if the enemy occupies it, the fleet in Mozampo will be blockaded.

The inner bay of Kargodø is blocked on one side by the heights of this island and on the other by a smaller island. Even if the port were besieged, the enemy would not be able to see the ships' moorings. The German 11-inch mortars that actually fired upon the ships in Port Arthur harbor would not have had the range (7800 meters) to reach the island's inner bay; that would have required a range of 15,000 meters. Furthermore, mortars are ineffective for firing over vast areas or at ships without constraints.

Torpedoing the fleet anchored in Mozampo or the inner Kargodo Bay is impossible: at night, without lights, even with a pilot, a destroyer doesn't know where it will end up in the vast bay. But it must be spotted from observation posts on the Kargodo heights opposite the strait, illuminated by searchlights, and fired upon by batteries—thus signaling the fleet. To reach the fleet, the destroyers would not only have to break through the fire but also travel at least another 20 minutes, during which time the fleet would be ready to repel the attack, giving it no chance of success.

The Impact of Baltic Aid


The important question is when we can expect assistance from the Baltic and what kind it will be. If it's a squadron of older, mixed-species ships, its assembly and preparation for the voyage will take a significant amount of time, while a larger squadron will move slowly.

If these are only new ships, they will be able to reach their target within two months. Their higher speed will make them more difficult to intercept and engage.

If the Russian fleet, which is equally powerful, becomes active, the Japanese fleet will not be able to devote half its forces to searching for and destroying the Baltic detachment. At the final stage of the campaign, the Pacific Fleet must move out to meet the detachment.

Once the Baltic squadron joins the fleet, the balance of power will shift to Russia, which will determine the victory of the war. If this squadron arrives in the Far East less than six months after the start of the war, the difficulties in conducting convoys will disappear, as the Japanese fleet will then be forced to go on the defensive.

Mistakes of the Russian command


The main mistake was that for the fleet The initial goal was not to gain supremacy at sea, and this gave the initiative to the enemy.

This explains the calm attitude towards the issue of maintaining an advantage in forces over the enemy, as the channel writes naval-manual:

"A relaxed attitude toward maintaining superiority over the enemy was expressed, in particular, in the decision to send Chukhnin's detachment to the Baltic at the end of 1901—after which the question of Japanese superiority was… finally resolved. If the goal had been naval supremacy, then no sacrifice of the advantage we had initially enjoyed in 1895 would have seemed acceptable… In the spring of 1895, the question of superiority in forces was raised—our admirals wanted to field 150,000 tons against the Japanese 126,000 tons. However, the lack of a focus on fighting for naval supremacy made superiority in forces… desirable, but not necessary."

But, as the military proverb goes, “a fortress that only defends itself is doomed to fall”: a passive strategy sooner or later leads to defeat.

Not intending to fight for supremacy at sea, the Russian command believed that it could get by with fewer forces without allowing itself to be defeated, and was not concerned that the Japanese fleet outnumbered it—a factor that was facilitated by the lagging Russian shipbuilding program and its reduction for the sake of economy.

Russia failed to seize the opportunity to launch a preemptive strike against the Japanese fleet, which Admiral Dubasov requested in 1897. Later, Admiral Alekseyev, now in worse circumstances, requested the same permission.

There was also an underestimation of the enemy's preparations - this had grounds several years before the war, before the start of intensive training of the Japanese fleet in 1903.

The most complex type of battleship was chosen, despite the General-Admiral's acknowledgement that medium-caliber turrets would not offer any significant advantages at the time, but were "promising in the future." At the time, their advantages were outweighed by their disadvantages, but it was the choice of this more complex type of battleship that delayed the construction of the Russian fleet, which entered service piecemeal.

Even the actual navy, having been built by the start of the war, prevented a Japanese attack: Japan was prepared to call off its intervention if the Russian fleet had 10 battleships in the Pacific Ocean or if new battleships were completed by 1904. But in that case, it could have postponed the war until later.

To guarantee the prevention of war, it was necessary to fulfill Admiral Makarov's condition, and to do this, to increase the fleet's displacement. This was possible, since the question of purchasing ready-made ships abroad (two battleships of the type) arose twice. "Swiftshur" and five Chinese cruisers) and there was a willingness to allocate money for this.

Moreover, the cost of maintaining the fleet could be reduced by optimizing the naval department's spending, as Admiral Makarov wrote in his "Note on the Shipbuilding Program of 1903": he claimed that, following the example of foreign fleets, it would be possible to achieve savings of 20%.

One could say, as Alexander III once did: "the entire treasury for the war." And besides the treasury, there were also the imperial family's personal funds, which could also be used for the navy.

At this time, not only Japan but also Germany was rapidly expanding its navies—they needed a navy there, too. It was already reasonable to begin creating a Murmansk (Northern) Fleet, as Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich wrote about in 1895 in his memo "On the Desired Composition of the Fleet."

And if the fleet had not served in the Pacific Ocean, it could have served in Europe - if not in battle, then by the very fact of its existence, as a “fleet as a factor of influence” (fleet in existence): even without entering into battle, he would force the enemy to hold his forces against him.

In reality, Russia, despite spending a great deal of money, built too few ships, a situation fueled by naval corruption. It was no wonder that the admiral-general was said to have "stolen more than the Japanese sank," and before the war, to have "wasted one battleship a year on ballerinas."

There were also expenditures on deepening Port Arthur's inner roadstead, which, had the work been fully completed, would have been enough to build a detachment of battleships; on Dalny; on the South Manchurian Railway, which would have been useless without Port Arthur (and a kilometer of the CER and this road cost twice as much as building it on our own lands); and on battleships of the most expensive type.

One could even suggest that Russia was deliberately led to defeat, and that Count Witte, who had connections with international financial circles, played a major role in this: he delayed the shipbuilding program, achieved its reduction, placed warships in "armed reserve," and built the only strategic road through foreign territory.

One might assume that in the scenario considered, Japan would have taken out more loans, and its navy would have become even stronger. But Japan wasn't given the money irrevocably: it took the loans as long as it could repay them, and made no commitment to use them. And if England used Japan against Russia, it was only to the extent that Japan itself considered it consistent with its interests. It had a clear estimate of the size of the Russian fleet, at which point the attack would be called off.

Blog author naval-manual In the entry "Russo-Japanese. Local Difficulties," he writes: "The strain on Japanese forces during the creation of the 6-6 fleet was similar to the strain on Russia's forces if Russia had tried to create a fleet equal to the British during the same period."

This means that the Japanese fleet could hardly have become stronger than it actually was by 1904, unlike the Russian fleet.

In the event of the occupation of the base in the Tsushima Strait, the passive Russian strategy would probably inevitably be transformed into a more aggressive option.

Opposition to the conclusion of an alliance between Japan and England and the English threat


One way to combat an enemy is to isolate it, that is, to destroy its alliances and prevent it from forming new ones. For Russia, this would mean an alliance with Germany in the Pacific—an alliance that would not conflict with the existing alliance with France in Europe.

Oleg Airapetov writes:

"The Kaiser had high hopes for the development of Russian-French-German cooperation in the Pacific. He… shared… his conviction that Japan would not pose a threat to the combined forces of Germany and Russia."

These wishes were expressed to the Russian ambassador in Berlin, which means that an official response was expected.

Had this agreement been concluded before 1902 and contained specific provisions for military support, it would have complicated the conclusion of the Anglo-Japanese alliance. After all, it was one thing for England to threaten to prevent Russia's allies from entering the war, and quite another to enter a war itself for someone else's interests, something it had never done in its entire history.

It was advantageous for Russia to maintain good relations with both France and Germany; and since England was its main adversary, the best option would have been to form an alliance with these states against England—each of which had historical scores to settle and friction with it.

In the event of a direct war between Russia and England, the latter would not have limited itself to the Tsushima Strait or the Pacific Ocean. England reacted very sensitively to the strengthening of Russian forces in Turkestan, concerned about its own India, and considered this threat real.

Moreover, England had two areas that required more effort and attention than the Pacific Ocean: the English Channel and the Mediterranean. To threaten the Russian base in the Tsushima Strait, England needed to weaken these areas and establish a naval base in the immediate vicinity of the strait.

Since the Russian naval base at Kargod would be adjacent to the mainland, it would be impossible to blockade it with the fleet alone. A railway line from south to north was already being built in Korea, and it was only a matter of time to connect it to Vladivostok—instead of building the South Manchurian Railway.

In Europe, France was Russia's ally. The goal of Russian diplomacy had to be to ensure that Germany, which had already firmly decided that its future lay in the oceans and colonies, became such an ally, at least in the Pacific.

Used materials


And also articles from the channel naval-manual:
  • "Colomb coefficient".
  • "Russo-Japanese: Intuitive Defeat and Theoretical Victory."
  • "Blonde's Fortune, Brunette's Misfortune: A Brief Revision of the Russo-Japanese War."
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  1. +5
    12 July 2026 04: 11
    Alternative history.
    The admirals and generals of Nicholas II were not prepared for modern wars and could not prepare the fleet and army for war.
    1. 0
      12 July 2026 06: 13
      Feel free to swap Nicholas II for Vladimir Putin)))
      1. 0
        13 July 2026 12: 20
        Quote: belost79
        You can safely replace Nicholas II
        There's a difference here: one is supposedly "God's Anointed," while the other is delegated rights and powers for the good of the country and the people. While an autocrat might consider exploits on the "galley" and great favors to his subjects a blessing, for a president this must be a constitutional duty and an immediate obligation.
        There are fundamental differences, but why is everything so similar is the question.
    2. 0
      12 July 2026 17: 16
      Quote: Bearded
      The admirals and generals of Nicholas II were not prepared for modern wars and could not prepare the fleet and army for war.

      No, they could, they wanted, and they strove to, as evidenced by the plans that were proposed and considered. Having unexpectedly found himself on the throne... the narrow-minded and seriously limited Nicholas II was simply incapable of thinking on such a scale, not only constructing, but even listening to the strategies of his late father... he simply didn't understand them and was afraid to show his own stupidity. Therefore, he gradually alienated his Clever Father's allies and found himself completely at the mercy of the scoundrels who manipulated him, flattered him, and promised to "do everything themselves."
      The fleet wasn't built not because "they couldn't" or "they didn't have the money." For example, when the Russian Revolution finally broke out in the spring of 1904, Witte "miraculously" found 100 million gold rubles to buy... Chilean (3) and Argentine (4) armored cruisers. Through "an intermediary with payment through the Rothschild bank." So, in one moment, "in one lump," the money for ships for the fleet was suddenly found. Only these ships were weak, already obsolete, and completely incomparable to the ships of the Japanese fleet. And what would have happened if this money had been "found" back in 1898? When Witte cut the shipbuilding program, he changed the designs of some ships, dramatically worsening them (the Diana-class cruisers were originally supposed to be built according to a completely different, much more advanced design).
      Let's just estimate what could have been ordered for that amount from foreign shipyards in 1898. At that time, the American shipbuilder Crump was in St. Petersburg at the invitation of the Moscow Shipbuilding School. He was offered the opportunity to build two battleships, two large armored cruisers, up to 50 destroyers, several auxiliary ships/vessels, and also to facilitate the construction of two large modern shipyards in Artur and Dalny. And he was ready to build all this and facilitate it (he had a friend in the USA – a very experienced shipyard builder, and his son – already an experienced shipbuilder, whom he proposed as manager/interim manager during the construction and launch of the shipyards). As is known, the cost of the "Retvizan" built by Crump under the contract was 8 million rubles. gold, and together with the cost of developing the project and changes made during construction amounted to more than 9 million. Let's calculate with a good estimate that 10 million. It turns out that Kramp could have built 10 large armored ships for these 100 million rubles in gold. And not only that - he could have built them. After all, in 1899, he bought another shipyard in the neighborhood and doubled his shipbuilding capabilities. And he REALLY needed the money - a large order with a delivery date by mid-1903 (in the fall, he had to repay a very poorly structured loan, which he was unable to repay or refinance and lost his life's work in the fall of 1903 through bankruptcy proceedings). So Kramp would have jumped out of his skin, delivered the order on time. He built the lead "Retvizan", which was built as a prototype, from laying down to delivery in 2 years and 8 months !! If a series were built, subsequent ones would be built even faster.
      What ships?
      He was to be ordered two battleships of the "Improved Prince Potemkin" design and two armored cruisers of the "Improved Peresvet" design—two-shaft, with a 20,000-horsepower propulsion plant and a speed of 21 knots. With a lowered forecastle, a continuous upper armor belt, and a casemate like the Retvizan/Potemkin for 12 six-inch guns. Taking into account Kramp's expected acquisition of a second shipyard and doubling of its capabilities, this order could even be doubled. And the ships would still have been completed on schedule. And if not all of them had arrived in the Far East by the end of 1903, the rest would certainly have already been in Kronstadt, receiving armament, ammunition, settling the crew, and undergoing combat training.
      Moreover, the cruiser "Varyag" could have been built... in two copies, according to the "improved Bayan" project - as high-speed armored cruisers of the 2nd rank with 2 x 10" 45-caliber guns in two single-gun turrets. Still, its engines were not 17,000 hp like the "Bayan", but 20,000 hp. And they would have received two reconnaissance cruisers in the squadron, capable of withstanding a fight with Japanese armored cruisers at medium range, having a very serious advantage over them in the quality of main battery guns (in range, armor penetration, flatness, accuracy and projectile weight). In VI about 8500 - 9000 tons, at a speed of about 22 knots.
      And this is instead of the outdated 7 "exotic cruisers" that they were never able to buy, but the money for which suddenly appeared from somewhere (a loan, although the money was already in the treasury).
      And the Frenchman Lagan was also counting on an order for two battleships and two armored cruisers, and he could have built them on time, too. It was a good order, and there was enough slipway space for it. The Russian Empire had the money, the needs, the calculations, and the plans from the General Staff and the Marine School... but the Tsar, preoccupied with the birth of an heir (and nothing else), sent everyone... to Witte, who scuttled all shipbuilding programs, and more. But he did build a very convenient and well-equipped port, Dalny, for the Japanese.
      This is such a "hallelujah".
      If the Tsar refused to transfer the Army to the Far East by sea, did not provide money for strengthening bases and ports, forbade preemptive deployment of troops, refused to purchase high-quality new shells for the fleet with cries of "You will ruin me with your shells", and refused to purchase machine guns (!!), much less set up production under license, he refused - "There is not enough ammunition for them, fight like this."
      And what do generals/admirals have to do with it when DyR@k is on the throne?
      When he surrounded himself with crooks who flattered and didn't bother him with difficult questions, such questions and reports left him stupefied and panicked. Witte was much more pleasant—he said, "I'll do it myself," and DID. And only later, after all the defeats and universal disgrace, when all the machinations and intrigues of this "Rothschild at the court of the Romanovs" (from the French branch of this clan, according to the halachic line) were revealed, did the unfortunate Nicky give him the title of "My Personal Enemy." request But it was too late.
      1. 0
        13 July 2026 11: 31
        Quote: bayard
        Found 100 million rubles in gold to buy... Chilean (3 pcs.) and Argentine (4 pcs.)
        Don't be like Nicholas II, who called the Japanese macaques.
        The Buenos Aires metro opened in 1913. Argentina's per capita GDP at the beginning of the 20th century was twice that of Italy, higher than France, and only about 20% lower than the US level.
        1. -3
          13 July 2026 13: 32
          Quote: ism_ek
          The Buenos Aires metro opened in 1913. Argentina's per capita GDP at the beginning of the 20th century was twice that of Italy, higher than France, and only about 20% lower than the US level.

          What does this have to do with it? I read Ilf and Petrov in my youth and I remember exactly where Ostap Ibrahimovich dreamed of going, like to heaven on earth.
          This doesn't change the fact that there was an attempt to purchase these cruisers, but it was impossible due to the terms of the peace treaty between these countries, between which England acted as the mediator. A special clause was noted there that the sale of their warships, both those in stock and those on order and those still under construction, could only be carried out with the permission and approval of England. That's why it was impossible for us (RI) to purchase either the two Garibaldians (the future Nishin and Kasuga), or the two battleships that were being completed for Chile in England, or the cruisers from stock. This was simply a scam by Witte to force Rozhdestvensky's squadron to sail around Africa to meet these seven cruisers at a rendezvous off its coast, which the intermediary was supposed to overtake. The wait and the actual voyage around Africa, crossing the equator twice, were in vain, but at least Rozhdestvensky was guaranteed not to make it to Arthur before its fall. Had he gone directly in a formed march, he would have had ample time, and the 1st Squadron was supposed to go out to meet him for a rendezvous at sea or to distract part of the Japanese fleet.
          Well, yes, Argentina was a fairly successful developing country at the time. And I didn't mean to offend those countries in the least. They just didn't have a war, so they didn't need the ships. But England covered everything. And yes, they were willing to pay 100 million rubles in gold for those seven cruisers, taking into account the broker's premium (10%), overhead costs, one and a half times the ammunition cost, and the cost of transportation.
          1. 0
            13 July 2026 17: 22
            Quote: bayard
            Even in my youth I read Ilf and Petrov and I remember where exactly Ostap Ibrahimovich dreamed of going, like to earthly Paradise.

            Actually, in Rio de Janeiro.
      2. +1
        13 July 2026 12: 15
        Quote: bayard
        For example, when the Russian Revolution finally broke out in the spring of 1904, Witte "miraculously" found 100 million gold rubles to purchase... Chilean (3) and Argentine (4) armored cruisers. Through an "intermediary with payment through the Rothschild bank." So, in one fell swoop, the money for ships for the fleet suddenly appeared. However, these ships were weak, already obsolete, and completely inferior to the ships of the Japanese fleet.

        Without a doubt, the Argentine BR-KR Mariano Moreno and Bernardino Rivadavia were weak, already outdated and completely unequal in comparison with the BR-KR Nissin and Kasuga. smile
        Quote: bayard
        What would have happened if this money had been “found” back in 1898?

        It's like asking the question - and if the money that could be allocated to the army in 2008 had been found in 1998? wink
        1. -2
          13 July 2026 14: 00
          Quote: Alexey RA
          It’s like asking the question: what if the money that could be allocated to the army in 2008 had been found in 1998?

          Not at all. According to the rules of those years (and still largely the same today), the customer could only pay a deposit (or none at all), and the actual payment would only occur after the ships were delivered. It's not for nothing that I cited the example of the possibility of placing this entire order with a single contractor, who could even and very much wanted to receive it. So, if the ships were delivered between late 1901 and mid-1903, then... then the spring of 1904 would be just around the corner. And this sum would be paid in installments, as the ships were delivered, and not in one lump sum, as they were prepared to pay in the spring of 1904 (that's when the "negotiations" began, which were simply bluff and disinformation). And don't consider the General Staff and the Marine School to be financial amateurs—they drafted their original shipbuilding program based on the capabilities and solvency of the Russian Empire. It's just that in mid-1898, a "quiet coup" occurred at court, and all these programs were immediately ruthlessly cut, "adjusted," and "moved to the right." Completely out of nowhere and under the pretext of "saving money."
          Or do you think the Russian Empire didn't have the money to purchase/order machine guns in a timely manner? And organize their production on its own territory? No! It was Niki #2 who categorically refused to allocate funds for this. "Someone taught him" that money must be saved before the war. Not even for training ammunition to equip the gunners of the 2nd Squadron. And he didn't give it – he screamed like crazy (Niki's famous falsetto), refused, and ran away, throwing out a parting shot, "Fight with what you have." I mean, with old ammunition that was completely unsuitable for this war and against such enemy ships. And he didn't allow the troops to be transferred to the Far East by sea – "to save money." Where did he put all this money? Or didn't have enough for ballerinas?
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Without a doubt, the Argentine BR-KR Mariano Moreno and Bernardino Rivadavia were weak, already outdated and completely unequal in comparison with the BR-KR Nissin and Kasuga.

          The four Argentine battlecruisers were exactly the same, except they had single-gun turrets with 10" 40-caliber guns, like the aft turret of the Kasuga. The French-built Chilean cruisers, however, were far more exotic – with a hexagonal arrangement of the main guns in four turrets, but only three guns could be fired broadside. It was simply that, given the lack of options, even these seven obsolete ships seemed a serious reinforcement for the 2nd Squadron. But even that was absolutely impossible – the terms of the peace treaty between Argentina and Chile required the British government's approval and permission for such a sale. It seems we simply didn't know about this and decided to take a gamble.
          And for that same 100 million rubles in gold, it would have been possible to order not only 10 modern armored ships from Kramp, but also have enough left over to order several large, high-speed ocean-going steamships—to supply the Pacific Fleet and conduct maritime trade in peacetime. That's the order of magnitude of the numbers and the comparative possibilities when spent and applied CORRECTLY.
          1. +3
            13 July 2026 16: 09
            Quote: bayard
            So, if the ships were to be delivered between late 1901 and mid-1903, then... the spring of 1904 would be just around the corner. And this sum would have been paid in installments, as the ships were delivered, and not in one lump sum, as they were prepared to pay in the spring of 1904 (that's when the "negotiations" began, which were simply bluff and disinformation).

            Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity. ©
            Negotiations on "exotic cruisers" fell apart because they were being conducted by the wrong people and with the wrong people. At first, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs attempted to conduct them in parallel, interfering with each other. Then the Ministry of Foreign Affairs was completely removed from international negotiations. And when a single person in charge was finally appointed and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs was brought back in, it was already too late.
            He went for the tree for the third time and got it... But that was already in the spring, and he took the tree back.
            ©
            Quote: bayard
            And for that same 100 million rubles in gold, it would have been possible to order not only 10 modern armored ships from Kramp, but also have enough left over to order several large, high-speed ocean-going steamships—to supply the Pacific Fleet and conduct maritime trade in peacetime. That's the order of magnitude of the numbers and the comparative possibilities when spent and applied CORRECTLY.

            Heh-heh-heh... would you like me to show you where Morved could have gotten the money for the ships without involving extra entities in an attempt to "base" the ship procurement program on a hypothetical future emergency wartime loan?
            Just three words: Port of Alexander III.
            As for future funding and the general increase in the navy's budget through loans... let me remind you of the resolutions on the issue of purchasing a second set of shells:
            The petition for the allocation of loans for the formation of a second combat kit was considered at a special meeting on the issue of additional appropriations to the maximum budget of the Maritime Ministry in the period 1900 - 1904 - HIGHLY approved on August 14, 1900 by the journal of the special meeting It was confirmed that it was necessary to eliminate for the entire remaining period of the maximum budget any further burden on the treasury by increasing the loans of the Naval Department.
            Then, upon consideration of the special journal of the general meeting of the State Council on the financial estimates of the Ministries and Main Directorates, and on the State list of income and expenses for 1903, It is HIGHLY commanded: to direct the most energetic efforts to curb the growth of expenses.
            © Testimony of the Assistant Head of the Department of Structures of the Main Directorate of Shipbuilding and Supply, Major General Ivanov.

            Translating into Russian - no money but you hold on. ©
            1. -1
              13 July 2026 17: 48
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Translating into Russian: there is no money, but you hold on

              This is closer to the truth: "There's no money, it's in the piggy bank." Just like now. And what's the point of the piggy bank if even on the eve of an inevitable war you can't get a single penny out of it?
              But in the case of those very 100 million GOLD rubles (!!!), the question is especially intriguing - instead of spending them on purchasing 10 brand-new armored ships + a few supply steamers to boot, they were ready, in sheer desperation, to spend them on 7 weak and outdated cruisers through shady intermediary schemes. Not to mention that it would have been impossible to buy them for that money, since England had a veto on such things (according to the peace treaty between Argentina and Chile). I just gave this example to illustrate how unnatural everything was back then. And stupidity alone cannot explain it, since the original plans and programs were quite competent and well-thought-out. But the "conspiracy theory" and "Witte's role" immediately explains almost/practically everything. It would be useful to realize this, looking at our current realities. Doesn't it seem similar?
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Just three words: Port of Alexander the Third.

              what I don't even know how to decipher this. No, the point is that Sharapov (both under Alexander III and under Nika No. II until mid-1898) always had as much money as he needed... And the treasury of the Russian Empire was bursting with gold and especially silver. Moreover, Sharapov's group and the General Staff were already launching a very serious program for the highly profitable extraction of gold from their foreign trade with Europe and the USA... with a profitability almost on par with... drugs.
              Let me digress a bit here and ask a question: have you heard anything about Saint Seraphim of Vyritsa, canonized by the Russian Orthodox Church? He's that two-meter-tall, stately fellow who "prayed on a rock for 1000 days" during WWII?
              stop I'm not talking about his prayers and other miracles. I'm talking about WHO he was before becoming a monk.
              He was a 1st guild merchant, a millionaire, widely known in Europe and the USA. And he traded in... Russian fur.
              Can you already guess what I'm talking about?
              Yes Yes, what Sharapov's students organized in the USSR (in the 30s) was already being started back then! Those same fur farms that produced luxurious Russian furs on an industrial scale.
              To put this into perspective, during the four years of WWII, the USSR earned enough currency from fur exports to the US to buy four tank armies (with all their associated equipment). This money was used to fund Soviet industrialization—not a cent of credit, just parity trade. But (!)—you're opening your market to us. Other goods were also exported, but it was Russian furs that drove women, young ladies, and mademoiselles absolutely crazy and drove their husbands crazy.
              These were the furs the future Seraphim (his name was different in the world) traded in, earning gold for the imperialist Motherland. When the First Revolution broke out, he gave away his property and capital and went (and his wife, by agreement) to a monastery, fortunately they had no children. He decided that he couldn't save Russia with his mind and gold, but instead try prayer. He was one of those who started this industry of extracting gold from Western economies.
              So back then, you could confidently take gold out of your piggy banks—merchants would import it from abroad in a few years, all you had to do was print banknotes and stack the gold in coffers. That's how the "Sharapov group" worked. We bow deeply to them for industrialization, collectivization, agricultural mechanization, reforms of the education and healthcare systems, the GOELRO plan, the military reform, the financial reform, and the reliable three-circuit Soviet ruble. For this Golden Key to our Bright Future, in which we have at least a glimpse. And if Alexander III hadn't died prematurely, all these reforms would have begun in the mid-1890s. And we would live “under communism”, with the “father tsar”, richer and happier than anyone else on the Planet.
              It was in order to prevent this from happening that they killed Alexander III (after a whole series of assassination attempts), put his wayward son on the throne, organized the Russian Revolution, the First Russian Revolution, the Entente, WWI, the February Revolution, the collapse and abolition of the Empire... And only the Bolsheviks and the General Staff managed to snatch Russia, which was already flying into the abyss, and, having saved it, stitched it together again under a new "brand", bring it to the status of a Superpower and the Second Economy of the World.
              But what if all this hell had never happened? What if everything had been set in motion back in the mid-1890s? By 1920, Russia would have been a superpower that no one would have been able to catch up with. Schiff (Jankel, a confidant of the English Rothschilds) spoke and wrote about this in his report.
              So Russia had everything as long as it was governed by Smart people who were well-disposed towards Russia and its people.
              And it doesn’t matter whether it was under the Tsar or under communism, they were always effective.
              1. +1
                14 July 2026 10: 37
                Quote: bayard
                But in the case of those very 100 million rubles in GOLD (!!!), the question is especially interesting - instead of spending them on purchasing 10 brand new armored ships + a few supply steamers to boot, they were ready to spend them with reckless desperation on 7 weak and outdated cruisers through shady intermediary schemes.

                These are different types of money. smile There was no way to get those hundred million in peacetime—the navy was already stretched beyond all conceivable limits in terms of funding. To squeeze them out of the treasury, a war was needed.
                Quote: bayard
                I don’t even know how to decipher it.

                The base in Libau, built to accommodate two Baltic fleets, was soon successfully stripped of its fortress status. belay
                Then the question arose that the Libau fortress, due to its proximity to the border and the presence of the land gorge of the Grobiński and Kapsidenski commanding heights ahead of it, did not provide the fleet with land cover. Consideration was expressed for occupying these heights. However, it also became clear that a military port, connected to the open sea by long, narrow underwater channels, was not at all suited to the task of an active naval base.

                In general, the idea of ​​building a first-class naval base next to the border with a state that is a long-standing enemy of the Empire's main creditor is quite... extraordinary. smile
                1. -2
                  14 July 2026 12: 45
                  Quote: Alexey RA
                  These are different types of money.

                  Of course, it's gold, not banknotes. Gold was used to pay for foreign orders; international trade back then was generally conducted in gold, less often in silver. So 100 million in gold is money specifically for purchases and orders abroad. For domestic shipyards, banknotes were sufficient; they could simply be printed. As they did during the construction of the Trans-Siberian Railway. With the fatal under-monetization of the domestic market of the Russian Empire (as it is now), any liquidity injected through large orders was beneficial for the country and the economy; it revived industry and business activity, stimulated consumer growth, and the prices of industrial goods began... to fall. Such is the nature of money, with targeted investment in an under-monetized economy. And this demonstrated its stunning effect already during the construction of the Trans-Siberian Railway. Not to mention the Stalin period and Industrialization, which was ensured by expanded targeted monetization. But that was a digression.
                  To build a fleet at one's own shipyards, fully utilizing them and expanding their capacity, it was sufficient to simply print the necessary funds for future orders and gradually inject them through direct advance payments and government loans, with payment in products (ships). This was also the case during the construction of the Trans-Siberian Railway; Putilov's factories thrived on such orders (Sharapov specifically sought him out as a competent engineer with a good education and training in Germany); it was Sharapov who introduced him to the Tsar (Alexei III) and proposed him as the main contractor. Exactly the same could have been done for the rapid, yet painless and unburdensome construction of a large new fleet for the Far East. The economy would have flourished, and the budget, instead of excessive spending, would have received excess tax revenues (thanks to the expanded circulation of new money). Money that has turned over twice is considered secured; such is the law and rule of the financial market. And for this it is not at all necessary to borrow. At interest. From foreigners.
                  But gold (less often silver) was needed to order ships abroad. And it wasn't necessary to borrow it from the Rothschilds (as Witte did); the Treasury had gold and silver, and plenty of it. This could even be formalized as an internal interest-free loan of gold from the Treasury. And then, it could be replenished by withdrawing gold from foreign trade proceeds—simply exchanging the gold from such proceeds with our merchants for domestic banknotes. And of course (and this was a special operation)—receiving gold from the state-stimulated foreign fur trade from the fur farms then underway. The state simply provided a loan in banknotes for the development of this business, with the obligation to repay it with gold from export proceeds and with the obligatory exchange of gold proceeds for state banknotes. There you have it, a source of replenishment for the internal "loan" of gold from the Treasury. But the sailors from the MS didn't even need these intricacies. You just need to properly draw up programs and plans for fleet construction, distribute orders between domestic and foreign shipyards, and receive comprehensive funding from the state. A well-managed state (Russia) only thrives on such programs, while the domestic market is filled with fresh, secured liquidity, revitalizing the economy like an organism with a fresh stream of blood. This is the ABC of the domestic financial and economic school from Sharapov; it formed the foundation of the Soviet financial school, and this explains the economic miracles performed in the USSR by the "Sharapov group," which created and headed/staffed the Soviet (Stalinist) Gosplan. In 1955, Gosplan was liquidated, and these people later, when Gosplan was restored under Brezhnev, did not return. I knew some of the employees of that Stalinist Gosplan. And believe me, I know what I'm writing about. And Sharapov certainly knew, knew, and could have done all this. The country would have flourished from such massive investments. Just as happened during the construction of the Trans-Siberian Railway, when huge sums of money poured into the economy and a truly frenzied economic growth began. And who started stopping this growth? Who then started talking about "economic overheating"? Who started fighting it, "saving money," and even introducing/reintroducing gold coins, which foreign traders immediately and happily exported?
                  That's right - a half-Sakhalin Rothschild-Witte. And precisely for this reason, he not only managed to turn the foolish tsar away from his father's wise ally, but also blocked his access to the tsar. And then he confidently led Russia toward a resounding defeat. He did everything imaginable to ensure the Empire's unpreparedness for war. There is no area, direction, section, case, or program that he hasn't interfered with, cancelled, distorted, banned, delayed, or otherwise violated. Sharapov's programs were detrimental to the interests and plans of the Rothschilds not only in Russia but throughout the world. Read Sharapov's 1905 book, "After the Victory of the Slavophiles." It was republished in 2005 and digitized; it is available online.
                  And those 100 million rubles in gold that could have been used for orders at foreign shipyards are simply an example of HOW the sabotage, subversion, and profanation of Witte's name was carried out. The Military School had already issued orders for the construction of the required number of ships for the Far East, designs were already being developed, and some ships were even laid down and under construction. The Military School had no doubts about the Empire's solvency; they did their job honestly and conscientiously, selecting and preparing designs for new ships and distributing orders. Thus, three types of cruisers were ordered from Germany, but not simply as prototypes. The Shachau firm was to build four Novikovs and facilitate their construction at Russian shipyards. The Askold, as a high-speed armored cruiser, was also to be built in two copies, and at least four more were to be built at Russian shipyards. The Bogatyr was originally conceived as an armored cruiser, the design of which was based on an improved version of the Peresvet project, featuring a lowered forecastle, a continuous upper armor belt, and casemates similar to the battleships Potemkin/Retvizan. The Vulcan firm was to build two of them.
                  Due to the scandal involving the theft of the complete set of technical documentation for the Novik by agent Witte, who also started a fire there (in the Schichau office itself, to cover his tracks), the management of the Germania company demonstratively and in the presence of journalists burned all the design and construction documentation for the Askold cruiser - as a sign of solidarity and protest at the Schichau factory. And the Kaiser, whom Nicholas had refused to conclude a military-political alliance in the Far East the day before, banned German shipyards from accepting foreign orders for the construction of armored ships. Thus, in one fell swoop, Russia lost three more Novik-class cruisers (Witte himself refused the order, which started the scandal), another cruiser. The Askold project and the ability to build such cruisers in their own shipyards were abandoned, while the Bogatyr had to be built not as an armored cruiser, but as an armored deck cruiser, and its clones were built domestically, replacing the Askolds already approved for construction. And that's not to mention the shame that this rogue at the court of the last Romanov, Rothschild-Witte, brought upon Russia. His role in the demise of the Russian Empire cannot be overstated; it is fundamental.

                  Well, the base in Libau was, yes, inconveniently located. To use it safely during the war, they would have had to annex at least the entire eastern half of Sweden to the Russian Empire. It's a joke, but with a grain of salt – such a location is akin to the same idea of ​​building the main Pacific Fleet base in southwestern Korea. In close proximity to Japan. Without reliable rail links... in a word – overconfidence, madness, and courage. For which they had to pay every time – withdrawing ships and evacuating the base during the next war.
                  For the Pacific Fleet, given the combination of conditions and capabilities, the optimal base was Dalny, with Artur serving as a base for light forces. And after sufficient naval forces had been amassed in the Far East, several Korean ports would be occupied as operational naval bases. This would have been the correct and most efficient approach. But this was a very large, complex program that could only have been implemented by competent, conscientious, and well-disposed Russian patriots. And they were then removed from power. Russia was simply being led like a cow to the slaughter by Witte's gang. So all of this was simply an alternative, one that Russia had been deprived of back in mid-1898.
                  1. 0
                    29 July 2026 03: 13
                    Quote: bayard
                    And those 100 million rubles in gold that could have been used for orders at foreign shipyards are simply an example of HOW the sabotage, subversion, and profanation of Witte's name was carried out. The Military School had already issued orders for the construction of the required number of ships for the Far East, designs were already being developed, and some ships were even laid down and under construction. The Military School had no doubts about the Empire's solvency; they did their job honestly and conscientiously, selecting and preparing designs for new ships and distributing orders. Thus, three types of cruisers were ordered from Germany, but not simply as prototypes. The Shachau firm was to build four Novikovs and facilitate their construction at Russian shipyards. The Askold, as a high-speed armored cruiser, was also to be built in two copies, and at least four more were to be built at Russian shipyards. The Bogatyr was originally conceived as an armored cruiser, the design of which was based on an improved version of the Peresvet project, featuring a lowered forecastle, a continuous upper armor belt, and casemates similar to the battleships Potemkin/Retvizan. The Vulcan firm was to build two of them.
                    Due to the scandal involving the theft of the complete set of technical documentation for the Novik by agent Witte, who also started a fire there (in the Schichau office itself, to cover his tracks), the management of the Germania company demonstratively and in the presence of journalists burned all the design and construction documentation for the Askold cruiser - as a sign of solidarity and protest at the Schichau factory. And the Kaiser, whom Nicholas had refused to conclude a military-political alliance in the Far East the day before, banned German shipyards from accepting foreign orders for the construction of armored ships. Thus, in one fell swoop, Russia lost three more Novik-class cruisers (Witte himself refused the order, which started the scandal), another cruiser. The Askold project and the ability to build such cruisers in their own shipyards were abandoned, while the Bogatyr had to be built not as an armored cruiser, but as an armored deck cruiser, and its clones were built domestically, replacing the Askolds already approved for construction. And that's not to mention the shame that this rogue at the court of the last Romanov, Rothschild-Witte, brought upon Russia. His role in the demise of the Russian Empire cannot be overstated; it is fundamental.

                    Well, the base in Libau was, yes, inconveniently located. To use it safely during the war, they would have had to annex at least the entire eastern half of Sweden to the Russian Empire. It's a joke, but with a grain of salt – such a location is akin to the same idea of ​​building the main Pacific Fleet base in southwestern Korea. In close proximity to Japan. Without reliable rail links... in a word – overconfidence, madness, and courage. For which they had to pay every time – withdrawing ships and evacuating the base during the next war.

                    In a galaxy far, far away... Were there brain wars going on???
          2. +1
            19 July 2026 16: 20
            Quote: bayard
            Yes, the four Argentine cruisers in service were the same, only they had single-gun turrets with 10" 40-caliber guns, like the stern one on the Kasuga.

            The Kassuga had a ten-inch turret on the nose...
          3. 0
            19 July 2026 16: 34
            Quote: bayard
            But even this was absolutely impossible—the terms of the peace treaty between Argentina and Chile required the British government's approval and permission for such a sale. It seems we simply didn't know about this and decided to take a gamble.
            And for that same 100 million rubles in gold, it would have been possible to order not only 10 modern armored ships from Kramp, but also have enough left over to order several large, high-speed ocean-going steamships—to supply the Pacific Fleet and conduct maritime trade in peacetime. That's the order of magnitude of the numbers and the comparative possibilities when spent and applied CORRECTLY.

            I have another question for you... Where do you get this nonsense from???
        2. +1
          19 July 2026 16: 18
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Without a doubt, the Argentine BR-KR Mariano Moreno and Bernardino Rivadavia were weak, already outdated and completely unequal in comparison with the BR-KR Nissin and Kasuga.

          Lex, is this trolling??? Does it matter that these are the same ships???
          1. +2
            20 July 2026 08: 49
            Quote: Ragnar
            Lex, is this trolling???

            Pure water. Unclouded, I would even say.
            1. +2
              22 July 2026 15: 42
              Quote: Trapper7
              Pure water. Unclouded.

              98% medical???
          2. +2
            22 July 2026 13: 33
            Quote: Ragnar
            Lex, is this trolling???

            How could you even think that? It's just a test of your attentiveness. laughing
    3. +1
      14 July 2026 03: 33
      I wrote that M.A. Petrov, historian Kofman and author of the "naval-manual" channel, would disagree with you. He has articles on comparing the admiral composition of the fleets and on their training. Unfortunately, in the text of my article, there was a link to a review article that contained links to articles on specific topics. It was removed during editing of this article. There are two other unfortunate passages where my words are distorted.
      My article is not an alternative approach, but an analysis of errors, but to prove that these are indeed errors, it is necessary to indicate different behavior.
      If you read books on military history, you'll often find phrases like "this is what should have been done here...," which means they could also be considered alternative history. The first edition didn't mention either the supply or defense of the base, but I had to add them in response to questions. Yes, the first article was published seven years ago, and it's true, it was on an alternative history website.
      1. +2
        14 July 2026 08: 00
        Quote: Alexander Iloev
        My article is not an alternative

        You see, here's the thing. All aspiring alternative theorists make the same mistake. They know how things unfolded in real life and think something like this:
        1) I will act differently.
        2) The enemy will act as in real life.
        3) I will defeat everyone!
        Alas. But the trick is that the enemy will act in accordance with the changed situation.
        1. 0
          14 July 2026 12: 05
          Senior Seaman, I'm not an alternative historian; thank God, I took advantage of their resource. An alternative historian is usually someone who thinks they should have simply rebuilt the 20 dreadnoughts from 1914. For example, in your article on the Alternative History website, dedicated to the Russian Navy, it's easy to see that such battleships were commissioned no earlier than five years after the events in question, and your 4000-ton cruisers simply couldn't accommodate 12 152mm guns—in 1904, of course. But I didn't rush off, eagerly (or not) to find your errors.
          And since I'm not an alternative thinker, I don't write a lot of articles on different topics. I focus on just one topic, and I draw on the opinions of experts of that time and today, not my own. It's understandable that it's hard to argue with them, but try arguing with them, not with me.
          1. 0
            14 July 2026 14: 26
            Quote: Alexander Iloev
            I'm not an alternative guy

            You are right, to be a good alternative writer you need to know the real history.
            I left the AI ​​website a long time ago and a lot has changed since then)))
            1. 0
              14 July 2026 17: 14
              Senior Seaman, it's funny to read this from someone who's solely guided by their own opinion, writing that I'm "hiding behind someone else's opinion" without a single reference. This is the opinion of an alternative expert who doesn't need sources. I don't claim to be a good alternative expert; if you want, be one.
              1. -1
                14 July 2026 18: 19
                Quote: Alexander Iloev
                It's funny to read this from a person

                Laughter for no reason ...
                Quote: Alexander Iloev
                who doesn't have a single link.

                If you had read really carefully, you would have seen the links.
                But, alas ...
                Quote: Alexander Iloev
                Yes, 10 years (7 years to be exact) ago you deeply insulted me, that's true

                Can you remind me?
                Even if you kill me, I don't remember. recourse
                Quote: Alexander Iloev
                It is under construction.

                Us?!
                Quote: Alexander Iloev
                Initial data: the fleets are equal.

                That is, when it is advantageous for you, you appeal to real history (like, they didn’t have time to deepen the fairway), but when it’s the other way around, the initial data of the fleets are equal!
                Do I need to remind you that such initial data simply did not exist?
                Quote: Alexander Iloev
                The Japanese fleet near its base is objectively stronger than the Russian one.

                So you are pushing our fleet towards Japanese bases, depriving it of one of its few advantages.
                Quote: Alexander Iloev
                Therefore, a general battle at the base of an enemy of equal strength is not the best solution.

                Why are you suggesting it?
                Quote: Alexander Iloev
                Next. How many cruisers do you have? 17

                And that's more than the ones in Arthur, of which four are truly fast: "Bayan," "Askold," and "Novik" with "Boyarin."
                Plus, for a serious boost, there's a squad of six Asamoids, who will turn any fight into a Chemulpo. And no matter how bad their actual speed is, they'll definitely catch up with the "goddesses" and the "Varangian." The rest will be forced to flee.
                And one more thing. In reality, the Japanese were forced to separate Kamimura's detachment from their main forces. If our main base is in Mozampo, that won't be necessary. They'll all be nearby.
                This is exactly what I was talking about. You think the Japanese will continue to act as before. But the situation has changed...
                Quote: Alexander Iloev
                I don't pretend to be a good alternative writer.

                You won't succeed. request

                Quote: Alexander Iloev
                Will the Russians expect this? I doubt it. They won't. Imagine how things will play out before you make assumptions.

                Unlike you, I know very well how this actually happened. And I see absolutely no reason why things would become more difficult for the Japanese near their shores.
                regarding links:
                1. -1
                  14 July 2026 20: 00
                  Senior sailor, it's too small for me, but from the link it seems you have it.
                  Now compare it with my list, and better yet, with their content. And with the weight of its authors in the scientific world.
                  You see, when I speak to you normally, you suddenly become rude ("You can't do this...") and the only way to prevent it is to start being rude yourself. Then you back off a little. It's no wonder you don't remember. Stick to your guns and stick to your guns. "Let all kinds of flowers grow in this garden"—whoever said that, I hope you know.
                  1. 0
                    15 July 2026 07: 50
                    Quote: Alexander Iloev
                    too small for me,

                    Small font? All questions should be directed to the site's engine and moderators. Yes
                    Quote: Alexander Iloev
                    Now compare it with my list, and better yet, with their content. And with the weight of its authors in the scientific world.

                    В scientific in the world?))))
                    Quote: Alexander Iloev
                    It's no wonder you don't remember.

                    Let me guess. The insult consisted of refusing to accept your "genius" at face value and daring to object?
                    Quote: Alexander Iloev
                    You become rude (“you won’t succeed…”)

                    This is not rudeness, but a statement of fact. request
                    Let's just say it's not for everyone. For example, I'll never be able to compare to Andrey Kolobov and many other authors in this regard.
                    Besides, when putting forward your alternative, you need to be prepared for it to be completely trashed. And you're really bad at that. You don't like criticism (secretly, no one does)))) but you have to hold on.
                    Regarding the list, the fact that it's long and the article is overflowing with quotations, both at the right time and out of place, doesn't make it comprehensive or the selection representative. Because you rely only on sources that support your point of view. And you don't even attempt to consider other opinions, let alone question the authors' conclusions.
                    It's understandable that the sailors considered Cargodo and Mozampo more convenient base locations. They are indeed more convenient. And the most convenient one is actually Scapa Flow. But did we have a chance of taking it? (Yes, I'm exaggerating.))))
                    The whole point is that in addition to purely “maritime” factors, other factors must also be taken into account.
                    1) General military (how will we defend ourselves?)
                    2) Political. (How to present all this?)
                    3) Logistics (how will we supply?)
                    4) Economic (where will we get the money for all this beauty?)
                    The authors you rely on didn't even consider this. Because it wasn't their job description. And some of them were writing at a time when the Tsarist regime and all its decisions were expected to be mercilessly criticized, and any attempt at approval could backfire. Incidentally, that's exactly what happened to the author.
                    And all of these points are in a very, very bad way. If the Russian government of that time had tried to build a base on the southern tip of Korea and a railway to it, it would have signaled that we wanted to swallow up the ancient country of Joseon in one fell swoop. And no one would tolerate that!
                    As for the railways, we managed to complete the Trans-Siberian Railway and the CER with great difficulty by the start of the war. This was already such an epic feat that it's simply impossible to ask for anything more.
                    All that remains is supply by sea, which in wartime is not just difficult, but practically impossible. And don't point the finger at Gibraltar or Malta. For the British had something we never had and never will have: a powerful navy of dual-power standard (meaning superior to the navies of the two most powerful maritime powers) and, without a doubt, the largest merchant navy.
                    The example of Libau shows that defending a base so close to the enemy is such a hopeless endeavor that it's a shame Chikhachev and his ilk managed to push through their opinion. Even so, it's undoubtedly a more convenient naval base than Moonzund, let alone Kronstadt.
                    And finally, the economy. Why do you think a second dock with a larger, more spacious battalion port was never built in Arthur? Why, instead of the latest artillery, were antiques collected from all over Russia for its batteries? Why wasn't the line of defense extended beyond the Green Mountains?
                    The answer is simple - there is no money (but you hang in there))
                    So it turns out that four are against and only one is for. feel
                    1. +1
                      17 July 2026 12: 58
                      Quote: Senior Sailor
                      The answer is simple - there is no money (but you hang in there))

                      Ivan, you finally found yourself an adventure...
                      1. +2
                        17 July 2026 14: 53
                        Quote: Ragnar
                        Ivan, you finally found yourself an adventure...

                        That's where we stand!)
                      2. +1
                        17 July 2026 15: 12
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        That's where we stand!)

                        Well, if you're bored and have time... have fun... with you in your thoughts...
                      3. +1
                        17 July 2026 16: 32
                        Quote: Ragnar
                        Well, if you're bored and have time...

                        To be honest, I'm stupid.
                        Quote: Ragnar
                        my thoughts are with you...

                        drinks
                    2. 0
                      27 July 2026 13: 55
                      Senior seaman, I answer for the last time.
                      Your words about “my genius” are a desire to insult, not the first and not the last - evidence of anger or irritation.
                      It doesn't take a genius to piece together the opinions of pre-war admirals of 1904, a military theorist, and some modern historians. Is it my fault that they don't align with your opinion of Port Arthur?
                      If Chikhachev called it a "trap" before the war, should I write about your "genius" now, or should we do without it? After all, the opinions of these people mean nothing to you.
                      The idea of ​​locating a naval base in southern Korea is not only the opinion of Dubasov—"the most dangerous Russian admiral," according to the Japanese—but also of M.A. Petrov, a military theorist who was only too young to fight in this war. Do you think they understand nothing about military affairs, logistics, and supply? So who among us truly claims to be a "genius"?
                      To the people mentioned we must add Klado, someone considers him a military theorist: that in the war of 1905 the Russians will have to
                      Take Mozampo. Why would he do that, and how would he supply it, in your opinion? We could add Grand Duke A.M. Volkonsky with his memo "On strengthening our forces in the Far East." And many others. So who's the "brilliant"?
                      During peacetime, Port Arthur was supplied by sea, not by rail. Admiral Birilev called it "a colony cut off from the mother country."
                      Not only British bases but also colonies of all countries, including Tsingtao, were supplied by sea. Do you think its fate would have changed if it had been connected to Germany by rail? But unlike all of them, the base in southern Korea is not very far away.
                      There's an article on this website that says the construction of the CER was a mistake. But by your logic, does that mean Port Arthur was also a mistake, or would you have supplied it by sea?
                      To criticize, you must clearly identify the enemy, their capabilities, their logistics, without pretending they are endless. Could (apparently) England have deployed large forces here, or does it need them in far more important places? Your reasoning, "The side I support can by definition do anything, but you have to prove it about yours," is a one-sided, unequal approach.
                      Somewhere around here, you turned Japanese auxiliary cruisers into wonder weapons. They'll surround the Russian base, making escape impossible, and they'll lay mines—but their speed is only 10-12 knots, and they're ordinary steamships. In reality, they can transport troops if there's no enemy nearby, and Russian mine-laying transports are much better at laying mines.
                      I have no doubt that you will respond with new insults, so I am ending the dialogue on my part.
                      1. +1
                        27 July 2026 14: 44
                        Quote: Alexander Iloev
                        Senior seaman, I answer for the last time.

                        I see you thought about it for a long time?
                        Quote: Alexander Iloev
                        Your words about “my genius” are an attempt to insult

                        You have strange ideas about insults)))
                        No. I was just trying to figure out what had upset you so much. And I was obviously right...
                        Quote: Alexander Iloev
                        If Chikhachev called it a “trap” before the war, should I now write about your “genius,” or can we do without it?

                        You are free to write and think whatever you want.
                        But the trouble is that we we know, how Chikhachev's idea of ​​a naval base in Libau ended. And there's no reason to think things would have been any different in Mozampo. Except that the Russian fleet would have had a much harder time escaping from there.
                        Quote: Alexander Iloev
                        Do you think they don’t understand anything about military affairs, logistics and supplies?

                        Hard to say.
                        I would venture to suggest that when Dubasov proposed seizing a base in the South of Korea in 1898, the Russian fleet had an undeniable (though not very large) advantage, and he could not even imagine that we would lose the shipbuilding race.
                        Quote: Alexander Iloev
                        To the people mentioned we must add Klado, who is considered by some to be a military theorist.

                        Who is this someone?
                        And by the way, can you remind me what battles Klado took part in?
                        Unlike Petrov, he was able to keep up with his age...
                        Quote: Alexander Iloev
                        This website has an article claiming that the construction of the CER was a mistake. But by your logic, that means Port Arthur is also a mistake.

                        Let's put it this way. If we're building the CER, then occupying Port Arthur is practically the only option. If not, then there's nothing to talk about. request
                        Quote: Alexander Iloev
                        To criticize, you need to clearly indicate the enemy, and HIS capabilities, HIS logistics, without presenting them as endless

                        The thing is, we know possibilities The Japanese. And they handled the landing and supply of the siege army perfectly well, even over a much longer distance. The fact that our fleet will be trapped in Mozampo instead of Arthur won't affect this in any way.
                        Quote: Alexander Iloev
                        Can add Grand Duke A.M. Volkonsky

                        Yes, you can. But you can find out what beforehand. Grand Dukes are different from all the others. Hint: the Volkonskys were neither "great" nor even "most illustrious"
                        By the way, which one are you talking about? The one who joined the Uniates in his old age?
                        Quote: Alexander Iloev
                        Somewhere around here you turned Japanese auxiliary cruisers into a wonder weapon, they will surround the Russian base, making it impossible to escape, and they will lay mines - only their speed is 10-12 knots, and these are ordinary steamships.

                        Don't distort things))
                        It was you who turned the Japanese auxiliary cruisers into cardboard boxes that would fall apart at the first hit of a Russian shell.
                        I recommend you read Yegoriev's book about the VOK's actions. There's a remarkable episode there, where, if I remember correctly, the Rurik sank a small Japanese steamship over the course of 6.5 hours, firing point-blank and expending over 70 shells of calibers ranging from 120mm to 203mm. Moreover, as you probably understand, the ship didn't fight back or maneuver.
                        After you read it, think about why it will be different with the VSKR?
                        And in a few hours, not only the Asamoid, but the entire first fleet will come to his aid.
                        Quote: Alexander Iloev
                        In reality, they can transport troops if there is no enemy nearby.

                        In reality, they were quite capable of transporting troops to Bydzevo, which is quite close to Port Arthur and the Russian squadron.
                        Quote: Alexander Iloev
                        and Russian mine transports are much better at throwing mines.

                        We look at Krestyaninov's monograph "Naval Mine Warfare near Port Arthur"
                        Quote: Alexander Iloev
                        I have no doubt that you will respond with new insults.

                        And I have no doubt that any disagreement is offensive to you)))
                        Colleague, if you are interested in communication, learn to listen to your opponents and not attribute to them things they did not say.
                        Or continue to cherish and nurture the seven-year-old grievance
                      2. 0
                        27 July 2026 16: 34
                        Dear readers: regarding minelaying by auxiliary cruisers: it is known that the Japanese laid mines using gunboats, not auxiliary cruisers - one example of my opponent's selective approach.
                      3. 0
                        28 July 2026 11: 34
                        Dear readers, also: according to the opinion of those years (the 1st naval games on the theme of "War with Japan") - supplying the base in the south of Korea is POSSIBLE provided that the Russian fleet is equal to the Japanese one.
                        I make this assumption in the article and write, “if Russia’s forces are smaller, then they are based in Primorye.”
                        Therefore, I propose to close this topic - supplies.
                      4. +1
                        28 July 2026 18: 16
                        Quote: Alexander Iloev
                        supplying the base in the south of Korea is POSSIBLE provided that the Russian fleet is equal to the Japanese one.

                        You see what the matter is....
                        Given the equality and, in particular, the superiority of our fleet over the Japanese war can it just won't start regardless of where our fleet is based. feel
                        Quote: Alexander Iloev
                        "If Russia's forces are smaller, then they are based in Primorye."

                        And in that case, we would now be discussing the heroic defense of Vladivostok. request
                        And it is quite possible that with the same result.
                      5. +1
                        28 July 2026 15: 00
                        Quote: Alexander Iloev
                        Dear readers: regarding minelaying by auxiliary cruisers: it is known that the Japanese laid mines using gunboats, not auxiliary cruisers - one example of my opponent's selective approach.

                        No, this is an example of your poor knowledge of the subject matter))
                        Because the Japanese laid mines with the help of destroyers и auxiliary gunboats, which are essentially the same armed steamers as auxiliary cruisers.
                        Who did you cite as an authority there? Naval-Manual? Are you sure you read him?
                        The main tasks were assigned to the 1st and 3rd combat detachments, the 2nd, 4th, 5th fighter detachments, the 14th destroyer detachment and auxiliary gunboat Koryu-MaruThese forces were scheduled to leave Haeju on the evening of April 8 (March 26) and arrive at the so-called "Seventh Rendezvous Point" at 15.00:000 on April 9 (March 27). The advance guard for the crossing was the 3rd Battle Detachment and the 2nd Destroyer Detachment, which occupied a position 4 meters from the 1st Battle Detachment, which was escorting the minelaying party: the Koryu Maru, the 4th and 5th Destroyer Detachments, and the 14th Destroyer Detachment.
                        The minelaying party was to lay 48 mines in four barriers in the outer roadstead of Port Arthur (Fig. 2). Two barriers to the east of the harbor exit were laid by the 4th Destroyer Detachment (16 mines) and Koryu-Maru (12 min),
                        https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/4165.html
                        Further, you wrote:
                        Quote: Alexander Iloev
                        and Russian mine transports are much better at throwing mines.

                        Everyone knows how well the Yenisei laid mines. The question is, if the Amur was so good at minelaying, why the hell did the Russian command do exactly the same as the Japanese, converting the civilian steamship Bogatyr for minelaying?
                        The answer is essentially simple. Russian minelayers, for all their sophistication, could lay only one type of mine—the very one they had in their holds. Therefore, after exhausting those, the Amur became a regular steamship. Not particularly fast and lightly armed. request
                2. -1
                  15 July 2026 08: 28
                  Quote: Senior Sailor
                  Quote: Alexander Iloev
                  Next. How many cruisers do you have? 17
                  And that's more than the ones in Arthur, of which four are truly fast: "Bayan," "Askold," and "Novik" with "Boyarin."

                  Are you sure you counted everyone? Did you forget the Vladivostok detachment? They were also cruisers, and fast ones at that, even taking into account the old Rurik, they were quickly getting away from the Asamid detachment.
                  Quote: Senior Sailor
                  I don't see any reason why things will become more difficult for the Japanese near their shores.

                  With the forces available at Arthur, of course. And with the forces available to Russia, it was quite feasible. It would have been enough to realize in mid-1903 that the Far East was in a critical situation, come to their senses, and immediately equip the Sisoes and Navarin to return there. Instead of holding up the Russian detachment in Suez with idiotic orders to "tow the numbered mini-ships to Arthur with battleships," the entire detachment, along with the Navarin and Sisoes, would have sailed for the Far East. And by autumn, they would have had... those same "ten battleships," albeit not in the original planned composition. And the armored Bayan to boot.
                  Moreover, having already confirmed the Varyag's inherent disability in the fall, instead of sending her to Chemulpo as a stationary ship, she should have been removed from all 12 x 6" guns (for the Dalny coastal artillery) and sent to Kronstadt for repairs and boiler replacement. After repairs, she would have joined the 2nd Squadron and received her guns again, and hopefully with armored shields. The gunners and the entire 6" BC remain with their guns in Dalny. There you have a normal base for the fleet, and 10 battleships + "Bayan". Of course, no base in Korea should be established ahead of time. But what is needed is that in the same time that "at the top" they came to their senses and sent the finished ships to Arthur, at least 3 divisions are transferred by sea: one to form the garrison of Dalny, two (and preferably mountain rangers) - to Korea, to the mountain passes, approximately on the modern border of the DPRK and South Korea, with machine guns and mountain guns. Of course, they will not disrupt the landing of the Japanese in South Korea, but they can certainly stop the encroachment of Japanese landings above the 38th parallel. The Japanese will not land in Manchuria - the fleet will not allow it. And even with The cruisers won't be able to make a dent with the Varyag gone. The Aurora will easily replace it, after all, it can travel at 20 knots and fire almost as broadside (versus the Varyag's permitted "maximum of 17 knots"). And the Svetlana will be added to the small fry—not a huge increase, but an extra pennant.
                  So the entire character of the war has changed. It will now be transferred primarily to Korea, if the Japanese decide to do so, since the Russian fleet is guarding the approaches to Manchuria. And there's not much room for expansion in Korea anyway.
                  And in 1904, 4 “Borodinites” will come and everything will change radically.
                  Can the Japanese do something?
                  They will be able to—by delaying the start of the war and requesting more loans—procure "exotic cruisers" with English assistance. It was only in mid-1904 that our "Borodinets" were ready, and as early as 1903, a series of new, reinforced 17,000-ton battleships was laid down. And it is quite possible that they will not be built according to the haphazard design of the "Pervozvanets," but with a 20,000-horsepower propulsion plant, three-gun turrets, and a speed of 20 knots. They will not be ready for war, but they loom as a potential under construction, and if a delayed war begins in late 1904 or early 1905, they may well make it to the climax.
                  This is if something changes at the throne in 1903, and realizing that Witte is a villain and is leading the country to defeat, he... well, at least they will simply expel him from their country, like Chubais.

                  Incidentally, in Vladivostok, after the cruisers were re-armed with new artillery, they somehow managed to repurpose the old guns for coastal defense. But in the case under consideration, this is no longer relevant for Dalny.
                  1. +2
                    15 July 2026 18: 35
                    Quote: bayard
                    Are you sure you counted everyone? Did you forget the Vladivostok detachment?

                    1) We have four more, the Japanese have six more.
                    2) If they are based in close proximity to Japanese bases, then one day they will have to meet not the second, but the first detachment.
                    With a somewhat predictable result.
                    It would have been enough to realize in mid-1903 that a critical situation was developing in the Far East, to come to one's senses and urgently equip the Sisoes and Navarin to return there, and not to slow down the detachment of Russian ships in Suez with stupid orders.


                    Quote: bayard
                    With the forces that were in Arthur, of course. And with the forces that Russia had, it was quite possible.

                    Let's just say that the admirals' decision-making logic won't change even if they change their base locations. Therefore, they'll likely do the same as they did in RealI.
                    But if not... it will work to our advantage at the Port Arthur base.
                    Quote: bayard
                    Moreover, having become convinced in the autumn of the Varyag’s congenital disability, they did not send it as a stationary to Chemulpo, but, having removed all 12 x 6” guns from it (for the Dalny coastal artillery), sent it in the autumn to Kronstadt for repairs and replacement of boilers.

                    I need to explain what this is
                    a) Unreal?
                    b) does not depend in any way on the location of the naval base in Mozampo or Kargodo?
                    Quote: bayard
                    And in 1904, 4 “Borodinites” will come and everything will change radically.
                    Can the Japanese do something?

                    It's the same as in real life. They'll start the war before the Borodino troops are ready. The location of the base has no bearing on that.
                    Quote: bayard
                    And by the way, in Vladivostok, after the cruisers were rearmed with new artillery, they somehow managed to adapt the old guns for coastal defense.

                    What do you mean?
                    1. -1
                      15 July 2026 20: 12
                      Quote: Senior Sailor
                      1) We have four more, the Japanese have six more.

                      Six of what? 4 "Asamid" and 2 dogs? Or 6 dogs?
                      The Vladivostok detachment was created precisely to draw away forces greater than itself.
                      Quote: Senior Sailor
                      2) If they are based in close proximity to Japanese bases,

                      I don't share the author's opinion that the main base of the Pacific Fleet should be built in the south of Korea. I don't share it at all and have already justified this several times, including to him.
                      Dalny was to be the main naval base on the eve of the Russian Navy. Both the 1st Squadron command and the entire squadron agreed. The water there was deep, ships could pass through regardless of the tide, and there was a dock (as far as I understand, large ships could fit in there, which was important for servicing and emergency repairs).
                      But Witte prevented the occupation of Dalny as a base for the main forces. Not only did he, with his prohibitions and orders, but also with the lack of troops for a second garrison (after Arthur), and the absence of any coastal artillery. That's why he wrote that if the capitals had come to their senses at least in the spring of 1903, they would have had time to transfer three desperately needed divisions by sea (at least one of them mountain rangers) - one for the Dalny garrison, the other two - to the Korean passes, where the PMC (those same "lumberjacks") simply didn't have time to recruit and train. And the coastal artillery would have consisted of those same 12 x 6" from the Varyag, along with the gunners. Not much, but not a bare base either.
                      Quote: Senior Sailor
                      Let's just say that the admirals' decision-making logic won't change even if they change their base locations. Therefore, they'll likely do the same as they did in RealI.

                      I have no doubt that they would have done the same, they simply did not have the opportunity to refuse - they were given loans and all this military luxury specifically for this war, with the condition that the war would begin in the second half of 1903. The British demanded that they begin military action as early as mid-summer 1903, right from the moment the last built ships were handed over. And since the Japanese were unsure, and the ships had to be mastered by their crews and the voyage completed, they delayed. Then, to eliminate their doubts about their own strength, a group of American banks issued the Japanese a loan "for the war", and England, in a fantastic time, organized their purchase of the Nishina and the Kosugi. So, a few days after the arrival of the "Garibaldians", they attacked. So they could not refuse the war, absolutely could not.
                      But the basic conditions and balance of power changed significantly if three additional battleships and two cruisers appeared in Arthur (Dalniy) by the end of the year. I don't recall whether there were any decent (not 120-ton) destroyers in Suez back then; maybe two, three, or four more would have been added. But the main thing was that the main forces of the fleets were equalized with our superiority in main guns, and they wouldn't have been able to dominate the seas as they would in real life. If they had four Asamid ships deployed against the Vladivostok detachment, then our main forces only had 10 pennants to our 10, but with a superiority in main guns plus the Bayan, which, while not designed for line combat, was still a combat unit. And they wouldn't have had an operational base in Taiwan. And a landing in Manchuria would have become impossible. And therefore, the nature of the war would have been completely different. The Japanese would have had no choice but to land in Korea, which we would have been unable to prevent. And precisely because the Tsushima Strait was their home (there were bases nearby, everything was within easy reach), while for our fleet, it was almost the limit of operational reach—far away. So the war would have been fought in Korea and for Korea. If only we had managed to deploy and fortify our positions with two divisions at the passes.
                      And if our troops were to stand at the passes (approximately along that same 38th parallel), we could think about an OPERATIONAL base for our fleet in the part of Korea controlled by our troops. And from there we could operate, supporting our troops from the flank with naval artillery and preventing the enemy from conducting amphibious landings in northern Korea.
                      Things would have been more difficult on the opposite side of the Korean Peninsula. Only the Vladivostok detachment could have countered the landings there. It would have been possible, in principle, to reinforce it with Peresvets, which would have drawn Kamimura's entire force onto itself. But I certainly wouldn't advise dividing the fleet's forces. Ultimately, the landings on the east coast of Korea could have been countered by periodic raids by the squadron's main force. They could have fought their way through, but that would have been a last resort. It would have been difficult in any case, but not as catastrophic as in reality.
                      "Varyag" and "Koreets" wouldn't have perished so uselessly, the squadron wouldn't have been caught in the outer roadstead like in Arthur, and its best battleships wouldn't have been destroyed. So Togo wouldn't have even approached Liaodong—the risk was too great. But he would have hung around the Korean coast, preventing our squadron from reaching Tsushima. A normal scenario with equal naval forces, but the enemy's land forces being three to four times superior. The passes in Korea can be defended with relatively small forces, but if they had all been drawn in en masse, Kuropatkin would have brought his main forces there too. And simply held the line. Like at Shipka. They might even have broken through, but certainly not right away and not in the right direction.
                      could land in the Vladivostok area?
                      Easy.
                      But not in the winter (!!), when the war began, but in the spring or closer to summer, which gives us a head start. By then, our reserves are already arriving. And they shouldn't be marching through the spring mud of northern Manchuria. They should be moving up right to Korea.
                      And already in 1905, and most likely already in the summer (for if they had come to their senses in the spring of 1903, then the construction of the "Borodinets" would have been carried out at an accelerated pace and without delays in financing. And the new battleships would have already begun to be laid down then, but that's another story. That is, in the second half of 1904, the "Borodinets", "Oleg", the "Varyag" repaired and armed with guns and shields, the "Kamushki" and the entire future 3rd squadron (now there is no need to form it, all ships are part of the 2nd squadron) are combing to the Far East without delays and unnecessary stops. And when all this comes to Arthur and Dalny, the entire war at sea changes radically. Russia has 14 1st rank battleships in the Far East, and already enough cruisers and destroyers And a "mighty handful" of old battleships and coastal defense battleships, so essential to support our troops in Korea from the flanks. The enemy's defeat at sea begins, and the supply lines to the Japanese expeditionary forces in Korea are already being securely cut off. There's no need to rush, but organizing a naval blockade of Japan is absolutely essential.
                      In a word, until the arrival of the 2nd squadron, the 1st squadron will hold out quite well, and after the arrival of the 2nd Yes it's in the bag.
                      So, the change in the naval bases is of fundamental importance in this case. I would even say decisive.
                      But in reality, this couldn't have happened in principle while Witte was on the throne. The only way for those in the "tower" to become wiser was by removing him and returning to common sense.
                      1. +2
                        15 July 2026 20: 34
                        Quote: bayard
                        Six of what? 4 "Asamid" and 2 dogs.

                        Yes.
                        Quote: bayard
                        I do not share the author's opinion that the main base of the Pacific Fleet should be built in the south of Korea.

                        On the one hand, it's good that we at least agree on something, but on the other hand, why explain it to me, and in such a long-winded way?))
                        Quote: bayard
                        I have no doubt that they would have done the same.

                        See above.
                        Quote: bayard
                        I don’t remember if there were normal (not 120-ton) destroyers in Suez at that time.

                        Colleague, there are things that it would be shameful for people who position themselves as "RYaV experts" not to remember (especially considering that the composition of Virenius's squad can be found out in two clicks).
                        Yes, in addition to the numbered destroyers, there were seven destroyers of the "Buiny" type, which later became part of the VTE.
                        Quote: bayard
                        And already in 1905, and most likely already in the summer

                        The Japanese fleet was already combat-ready in 1903. The Japanese were delayed by the purchase of the "Garibaldi" ships. The rest is talk for the poor.
                        Quote: bayard
                        But in reality this could not happen.

                        Alleluia!
                        Sorry, but in between destroying evidence on Wikipedia, I'd still like to know what exactly you meant when you said:
                        And by the way, in Vladivostok, after the cruisers were rearmed with new artillery, they somehow managed to adapt the old guns for coastal defense.
                      2. -1
                        16 July 2026 01: 47
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        On the one hand, it’s good that we at least agree on something, but on the other hand, why explain it to me, and in such a long-winded way?

                        Firstly, you're not the only one reading this forum, so we need clarity not only on the "what" (Korea was not a safe place for the navy's main base), but also on the "why." The author is sincerely mistaken in relying on the authorities of the time, but their opinion is just one opinion, and it's wrong.
                        I always approach problems holistically, including entertaining ones like analyzing the causes and course of the Russian Revolution. Solving such problems can be useful for understanding many contemporary events and problems; analyzing key moments in history is always instructive.

                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Yes, in addition to the numbered destroyers, there were seven destroyers of the "Buiny" type, which later became part of the VTE.

                        You see, it's so simple. Why the prelude? I've already written more than once that our internet is extremely poor these days, and the search engine I use (tautology) doesn't work because it's Chrome. I don't use any others—they're full of ads. That's why I made this transmission to you while talking to an ordinary person. I remembered there were destroyers, but I didn't recall their number. Seven brand-new destroyers... that would have been a very solid addition to Arthur's squadron.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        The Japanese fleet was combat-ready as early as 1903.

                        I know, I wrote about it. But they weren't confident of success; they were hesitant. So, to instill confidence, they organized an emergency (not even urgent) sale of "Garibaldians." And having received them, they started the war a few days later.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        The rest is talk in favor of the poor.

                        This is not an argument. But not only everyone knows about the better training of Japanese sailors, and most importantly gunners.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        What exactly did you mean when you said:

                        A documentary on central television about the history of Vladivostok's coastal batteries. It started with a historical overview, including the Russian Naval Air Force (RYAV), and how cannons removed from cruisers when their old artillery was replaced with new ones were adapted for coastal defense in otherwise undefended Vladivostok. "They became Vladivostok's first coastal guns." Without going into detail, it then went on to talk about the well-known battery with battleship turrets. I also read about it somewhere, but it was also just a factual reference. I've never been interested in the details; the topic has never been my area of ​​interest. So I know the facts, but not the details. And I have no interest in digging into them either.
                        In the Russian Nuclear Forces, I'm interested in strategic, political, economic, and military-technical issues in the context of fulfilling the first three objectives. I'm not interested in old guns, only their performance characteristics, operational features, and combat potential. Everything else is fluff and can be ignored, as this is mainly for entertaining reading and writing posts.
                      3. 0
                        16 July 2026 07: 32
                        Dear Bayard, it's good that you noticed that I'm relying on the authorities of the time. But then you write that they're incorrect.
                        But how can you judge this? After all, these are the opinions of military personnel, one of whose opinions is more powerful than a thousand historians. I simply know how humanities articles are written. This is an area where experiments cannot be conducted.
                        Even if ALL historians wrote that the occupation of the Polish-Azerbaijani Peninsula was correct, I preferred the opinion of M.A. Petrov or Admiral Dubasov to theirs. But I also read historians, and I only come across those who write that the occupation of the Polish-Azerbaijani Peninsula was a mistake. I cited one quote, which mentioned another. Why didn't you notice or ignore them? Science is just as selective in its approach to facts: "This fact suits me, but that one doesn't, so we bury it." Therefore, one can recall the saying, "They say that when you milk hens, they lay eggs."
                        Therefore, from all the pile of facts, we must take the opinions of those who were present at the events, which are closer to the truth; the further from the events, the more frothy. But you consider them all to be wrong.
                      4. The comment was deleted.
                      5. 0
                        16 July 2026 08: 05
                        Bayard, I'll continue. It's even stranger that one opinion was written before the war, and it was confirmed. The other's opinion was written BEFORE the war, and it was confirmed. Petrov's opinion was written after the war, he has practical experience, and he's a military theorist whose importance is undisputed, but he's also "wrong." And those who shout the loudest are right.
                        You write, "EVERYONE knows the training was worse than the Japanese." Maybe you meant it ironically, maybe not. But that means if I cite even one person who disagrees, the statement is false. The article cites the opinions of those who disagree. Take, for example, the channel "naval-manual."
                        And most importantly, we need to look for the systemic, root error, and not dismiss it as "bad shooting"—that's a consequence, not a cause. People learn to shoot in war, that's what war is for. At the beginning of WWII, they also shot poorly, and that's okay. We have this idea: "Everything was done correctly, the ships let us down... and now a new war is underway, and it feels like Kuropatkin is in charge." But that's just it, I don't want to delve into that. So what root errors did you see?
                      6. -1
                        16 July 2026 13: 31
                        After all, I've clearly explained, using facts and figures, that under the conditions that had developed by the end of 1903, Russia's Far East was completely unprepared for war. The squadron was weak and couldn't withstand open combat with the enemy's main forces (it would accept the fight and retreat, at best), meaning it wouldn't be able to counter the landings. The enemy would have complete initiative and the choice of place and time—where, when, and with what forces to land the troops; they would have well-organized supply logistics by sea, while our ground army would be fundamentally incapable of countering the landings—it simply wouldn't be able to respond. Being three-quarters inferior on land to the enemy (their landings/expeditionary forces), the army would be unable to fight decisive battles in the coastal theater of military operations. and therefore will be forced to retreat deep into the territory and draw the enemy to pre-prepared defensive positions, lure the enemy with rearguard actions as deep as possible (besides, this is not our territory), stretching his communications, complicating his supply, wearing him down with fleeting battles and maneuvers. Not to accept a general battle, but to wear down the enemy and buy time by maneuvering and acting defensively. Time is gained to bring up reserves (by foot marches of 1000+ km!), to prevent the enemy from reaching Northern Manchuria. And to drag on, buying time while the KBM is being completed, troops are accumulating in the Baikal region and their training and preparation is underway, since these units and formations are newly mobilized from reservists and new recruits. Preparing and deploying such an army to a theater of operations would require (brace yourself) at least a year and a half, if not more, according to all the laws of war and military logistics under those conditions. And these basic conditions could not be changed in any way, because the upper echelons of power not only failed to prepare the country, the Army, and the Navy for war, but also obstructed such preparation and the proper work of professionals in every possible way. The military (and sailors, too) were powerless to prevent or change this. Their reports were rejected or ignored. And by the time the war began, it was too late to change anything—preparation time was lost, "money wasted," troops not deployed, the fleet unfinished. Both the Navy and the Army were simply betrayed by the political leadership of the Russian Empire. That very leadership—the weak-willed and abnormally... stupid Tsar, and his spy-vizier Rothschild-Witte. So, for anything to change in the pre-war period, Witte had to be gotten rid of, but that wasn't done. That's why it happened, that became the main factor in the catastrophic course of the entire preparatory period and the course of the war itself. So any attempt to rethink and replay the war comes down to this very factor. As long as this key figure and culprit de facto rules the Empire, everything will continue to go on as it is or worse.
                        Before this scoundrel's final seizure of power, everything in the country, the Army, and the Military School was planned and executed quite competently, professionally, and sensibly. But these plans were rejected or radically scaled back, defunded, "shifted to the right," and sabotaged. So we got what we got—a shamefully lost war and revolution. And given the fundamental conditions and the political balance sheet, things simply couldn't have happened any other way. Any correct decision, even on the very eve of war, could have mitigated and even rectified the situation. I presented one such decision on this forum, based on the expectation that the government would cleanse itself and come to its senses—that in the spring of 1903, Witte would be ousted and the situation would begin to be rectified, with only six months left to act. But even under these conditions, it would have been possible to reinforce the 1st Squadron with the battleships Sisoy, Navarin, and Oslyabya, the cruisers Aurora and Svetlana, and seven new destroyers. The main fleet base would have been moved to Dalny, leaving Artur as a base for light forces (until it was fully restored), and at least three divisions would have been transferred by sea—one for the Dalny garrison and two to the Korean mountain passes approximately along the 38th parallel. This was all that could be accomplished, but it might have been enough to prevent Japanese landings in Manchuria and to establish naval dominance for the Japanese fleet. Combat operations would have been conducted primarily in Korea and at sea, with equal forces and our main guns superior. And in the second half of 1904, the 2nd Squadron would have arrived, and the tide of the war at sea would have turned.

                        Forget about the base in Korea; it's not only a mistake from a military-strategic perspective, but also because this whole story began with the lease of Liaodong-Arthur and Dalny. It was a political and economic decision; it was the basis for all the problems and the beginning of events. That's why all the fuss is centered around the consequences of that lease. We didn't need Korea back then, and we weren't interested in it. Only an operational base in its northern part under our troops' control, if such a decision had been made. Everything else is the fantasy of theorists who had no idea of ​​the events and facts that governed the processes. From the moment of the lease, those were the conditions.
                        And regarding the military professionals who made such proposals, this is, after all, a primarily military, veterans' site, and it boasts many military professionals with excellent educations, combat experience, and extensive life experience. For us, the proposals you've cited are the erroneous opinions of colleagues from the past. Moreover, our opinion is based on hindsight, unlike the theorists of the time. They proposed such solutions based on the assumption that Russia would always have an advantage in the number and quality of its navy in this region. They knew our capabilities and those of Japan, but they didn't take into account the sabotage factor, and that the Russian Empire in a future war would always fight significantly or significantly inferior to the enemy in numbers, personnel training, supply quality, and even the armament of the Army and Navy. Thus, Japanese field guns fired from indirect positions, while ours were always deployed on high ground for direct fire. As a result, we almost always lost artillery duels and were suppressed. At sea, the Japanese always had the initiative and dominance, while our gunners were vastly inferior to theirs in the actual results of naval battles and engagements. This is the level of preparation for war. The Japanese had been preparing all these years, while we... had "Koekaka" on the throne, who considered the Japanese simply "yellow-faced monkeys." Wars are not won with such leadership. So don't break your heart and read the book I've suggested to you. It will clarify a lot for you.
                      7. +1
                        16 July 2026 07: 42
                        Quote: bayard
                        that's why clarity is needed

                        That may be true, but you're grafting this clarity onto not just every article, but literally every comment. Take my word for it, everyone involved is already in the know.
                        Quote: bayard
                        A documentary on central television about the history of the Vladivostok coastal batteries

                        Four 36-pound cannons removed from the corvette "Griden" in those distant times when the design of naval and fortress cannons was the same?
                        And you decided that since this happened with the old, light smoothbore guns, it would also be easy with the newest multi-ton guns.
                        Quote: bayard
                        At RYaV I am interested in strategic issues

                        Ага. Yes I wrote about it wink
                        Quote: bayard
                        Everything else is just fluff and can be ignored.

                        It is because of your disregard for the "little things" (which are not little things at all) that you write nonsense that is simply delightful in its clarity!
                        And then you try to get out of it like a child, not realizing that you're digging yourself in even deeper)))
                        They couldn't repair the Sevastopol's mount in Port Arthur, but they couldn't carry out the most complex disassembly of the gun in order to remove the jacket (after heating) and be able to replace the inner tube with a similar one, but with trunnions, which would have to be made on site... that was easy!
                      8. -1
                        16 July 2026 15: 12
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Take my word for it, all interested parties are already aware)))

                        As you can see from the comments of the author of this article, not all.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Four 36-pound guns removed from the corvette "Griden" in those distant times

                        Where are you going?
                        Wouldn't you like to remember about the oared galleys?
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Yeah, I wrote about that.

                        You've written a lot. Remember how you argued to me that the Aurora, built according to the original design, while remaining an armored cruiser, would not only "easily" defeat the Nishin or Kasuga individually, but both combined? You argued with all your might. laughing And now they've taken aim at poor Kolobov about the equivalence of "Bayan" and "Asama," and he's been trying to prove it, article after article, with a tenacity worthy of something better. It's not even funny anymore. Apparently you were so battered for such pearls of wisdom on the alternative-speaking website where you posted your phantasmagorias that you fled, buried yourself in books, and now you're here to churn out criticism, all the while continuing to spout nonsense about the "equivalence of Bayan." Were you the one spouting this nonsense on "Fairvater," trying to stretch the Owl onto a Spanish globe? So Kolobov (an unemployed economist who never even served his mandatory military service) fell for your latest bait. Well, that's his business; let him have his fun; at least he gets paid for it.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        You write nonsense that is simply amazing in its clarity!

                        And this is written by the one who stuffed 8" into the casemates of the "Potemkin"?? laughing Who defeated two Garibaldians with the Aurora (even if armed like the Bayan)?? But I readily believe that you are an expert in nonsense, because you directly brought it to me.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        but to carry out a very complex disassembly of the gun in order to remove (after heating) the jacket and be able to replace the inner tube with the same one, but with trunnions,

                        Ochenkov, calm down. You're picking on my exhaustive review of options for finding artillery locally for the coastal defense of Dalny, for the relocation of the naval base there. The first to be considered were the Sisoes and Navarin, which were proposed to be disarmed before being sent to Kronstadt. That option was dropped because the guns turned out to be "of the wrong type," and I didn't insist on that at all. But you're suspiciously ignoring the proposal to disarm the Varyag and send it for repairs back in the fall, picking at what I've already discarded by proposing a new solution. I understand that the senior sailor didn't participate in military councils or even meetings; he was just amusing himself with his fantastic alternative, but that's not how things will work. The goal of the question raised was to equip the Far East with coastal artillery. I settled on the 12 x 6" guns of the Varyag as the most accessible and efficient solution. And you continue to brag about the smoothbore guns of some "Gridn" or other. Were you kicked out of your previous site for this behavior? Judging by the reviews of its former visitors, that's true. I understand that suggesting something to you myself (I don't even know how to put it) is "scary" based on previous experience, because then they'll pick apart your heresy, and you might end up talking about the Bayan, invincible against the Asamid, or the all-conquering armored deck Aurora, or even the super-armed Potemkin with 8" and 6" guns in casemates.
                        Have you forgotten how fiercely you tried to convince me that the Aurora (built according to the original design) would defeat two Garibaldi ships? And offered me your fantasy opus to read?
                        The forum is openly discussing a topic, a topic that is purely... entertaining in nature—an analysis of the history of a distant and extremely unsuccessful war for Russia. Specifically, an analysis of the reasons for its failures, lack of preparedness, and the astonishing quality of its governance. The war was long lost, and it's known why; people are simply having fun proposing their own solutions.
                        - Was it possible to remove the guns from the old recalled battleships and adapt them for coastal batteries?
                        - No, the design of the guns excluded this.
                        - That's it, the issue is resolved, we're looking for another solution.
                        - A solution has been found: disarming the Varyag and sending it for repairs. The issue of coastal artillery for the new naval base has been resolved.
                        - No, the main guns of battleships do not have trunnions, they are not smoothbore guns.
                        "Calm down, Ochenkov, the topic is closed. No one remembers the battleships; they simply don't respond or return to Arthur on the eve of the war and fight as part of the 1st Squadron. No one remembers your trunnions anymore, but if you like, you can poke around in them."
                        And stop wasting your time on chutzpah and start educating yourself. If that's within your capabilities, of course. I understand that reading the same books on the same topic for so many years can lead to them being memorized, especially if they're on a shelf nearby, but that doesn't give you the right to be rude. I also have books, a good library and archive, some books with memorable signatures from the authors and publisher. But my books have been unavailable to me for 12 years now, so I can't take them off the shelf and refresh my memory or use reference books, and I might never be able to, the war is on. So, a pin to a cannon is certainly interesting, but for a topic touched upon in passing and discarded almost immediately, it has no significance. Not even for entertainment. Just as it didn't have any significance back then. You can suggest this topic to Kolobov, he'll write a new paper, and he'll earn some money.
                      9. +2
                        16 July 2026 17: 35
                        Quote: bayard
                        As you can see from the comments of the author of this article, not all.

                        What did you expect? A person has been cherishing an old article and the grievances inflicted on him for seven years.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Where are you going?

                        Me?! )))
                        It was you who remembered them)))
                        I, sinner, thought that you had some newer example...
                        Quote: bayard
                        Remember how they proved to me that the Aurora, built according to the original design, while remaining an armored cruiser, would not only “easily” defeat the Nishin or the Kasuga separately, but also both of them combined?

                        Me to you?!
                        You should have a snack, by God.
                        Quote: bayard
                        But my books have been unavailable to me for 12 years, so I can’t take them off the shelf and refresh my memory and use reference books,

                        Did Google ban you for being stubborn?
                        I won't even bother to analyze the rest of the stream of consciousness.
                      10. -1
                        16 July 2026 18: 45
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Me to you?!

                        And they even sent a link to their opus.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        stream of consciousness

                        As for the "Potemkinites", it was truly a stream of consciousness.
                      11. +1
                        16 July 2026 18: 58
                        Quote: bayard
                        And they even sent a link to their opus.

                        Seriously?
                        Quote: bayard
                        As for the "Potemkinites", it was truly a stream of consciousness.

                        Hard case...
                        It’s not too bad that you got stuck after all
                      12. -1
                        16 July 2026 20: 17
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Seriously?

                        Don't act like you're a misunderstanding person; you're not much of a know-it-all.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Heavy case

                        So go to a doctor you know, he will treat you.
                      13. +1
                        17 July 2026 13: 37
                        Quote: bayard
                        - A solution has been found: disarming the Varyag and sending it for repairs. The issue of coastal artillery for the new naval base has been resolved.

                        Oh, what, why just one cruiser? Just recently, you sent the entire Pacific Fleet to Kronstadt on the eve of the war. Why this curtailment of appetites?
                      14. -1
                        15 July 2026 20: 37
                        Quote: bayard
                        And already in 1905, and most likely already in the summer (for if they had come to their senses in the spring of 1903, then the construction of the “Borodinites” would have been carried out at an accelerated pace and without delays in financing.

                        Of course, it’s a typo - the “Borodinites” would have been ready already in the summer of 1904 thanks to normal financing and acceleration of the work.
                  2. 0
                    19 July 2026 18: 34
                    Bayard didn't calculate it because a squadron or fleet must be balanced, and the Vladivostok cruisers weren't part of the Port Arthur squadron. 2) The Vladivostok cruisers have three wardens. These are very specific ships that cannot be used for anything other than raiding. They couldn't be used as mine countermeasure vessels or reconnaissance vessels. Admiral Alekseyev concluded in 1897: "The construction of such expensive ships for the specific task of cruising is questionable." So, they are not suitable as cruiser forces (not raiders).
                    1. -2
                      19 July 2026 23: 18
                      The Vladivostok detachment was formed to draw the attention and forces of the Japanese fleet. Only Kamimura's cruisers could fight them; the dogs were a bite away from such monsters. And there were still four cruisers, the fourth being the Bogatyr—a fairly powerful armored cruiser, and quite fast (24,35 knots during acceptance trials). Against these four, it was necessary to have at least four Asamid cruisers plus at least two dogs as scouts and avisos. That's what actually happened—they drew off four cruisers plus two.
                      And they could not be left without attention - they would break out into operational space and go to destroy the defenseless Japanese ports and Japanese landing forces.
                      So, even if the Japanese forgot about this detachment and gathered all their main forces to confront Arthur's squadron, the Vladivostok Four would cause such an Armageddon for the Japanese landing forces and all Korean and Japanese ports... that they would have to dispatch forces anyway. And end up in a 10-10 ratio with our firepower superiority plus the "Bayan."
                      But I've run through dozens of scenarios for this war, assuming a normal course of preparation and war without any Witte in power (he was hanged immediately after the assassination attempt on the royal family in Borki, when he was the prime suspect/organizer and was under house arrest), with all the plans of the General Staff and the Military Staff being implemented without any changes or exceptions. And this is the most optimistic scenario, giving the Japanese no chance of success. And ending with the most difficult, with Witte exposed and hanged in the spring of 1905 and not allowed to send the 2nd and 3rd squadrons to certain death. They remain in Cam Ranh and await victories for Kuropatkin's army, looming from the south as a factor. Or they even return to Kronstadt and wait for the Slava and the Pervozvanets to be completed. Meanwhile, Kuropatkin begins crushing the Japanese in the summer, driving them out of Manchuria, Kwantung, and at least North Korea, and then the Russian squadron arrives in liberated Arthur. The forces aren't exactly impressive, but they have eight new 18-knot battleships, plus the Sisoes and Navarin, plus the 3rd Squadron of "auxiliary forces." This is enough to repel the Japanese fleet, and their army has already been routed. Considering that we critically needed Manchuria (and northern Manchuria at that), and Kwantung was just an option, the war could have ended at the 38th parallel, but with the withdrawal of Japanese troops from Korea. But with recognition of their protectorate over South Korea. That would have been the worst possible outcome.
                      Such a scenario as this simply couldn't have happened in reality. But Witte managed it thanks to the inexplicable influence of... a very specific last Russian tsar.
                      Any normal General Staff always develops several plans for future wars for each TVL, against each of the possible opponents or their coalitions, and precisely several for each, so that when something happens, even suddenly, there is a ready-made war plan at hand for approximately the same case.
                      It's no wonder that the Russian Navy was considered a "training war" in every headquarters and military academy around the world. For it was so poorly and illogically prepared for the Russian Empire, and waged so paradoxically, that there are arguably no "mistakes" or "miscalculations" that didn't occur. And this wasn't due to the "stupidity of the General Staff of the Russian Empire" or the "incompetence of the Military Staff." An examination of their plans for this war—the original plans, the original shipbuilding programs—demonstrates the complete adequacy and competence of their planning, with a realistic timing of the "point of inevitability of war," a proper calculation of the necessary forces and resources in the upcoming theater of operations, and a shipbuilding program that took into account the ships ordered and potentially acquired for the Japanese Navy and the date of the Japanese Army and Navy's readiness for war. The Russian shipbuilding program was also developed based on this. The selected ship designs were carefully considered, ensuring qualitative parity and numerical superiority in the main forces. An analysis of each initial design shows that by mid-1903, Russia would have a stronger navy in the Far East in all categories. A series of new battleships should be laid down already in 1898 or at the very beginning of 1899 (and not at the beginning of 1900 as in reality) according to the “improved Potemkin” project - with a 12 x 6" casemate battery and a propulsion plant (initially planned for 15,500 hp) of 17,000 hp, because at that time the “Bayan” had already been designed and built. Moreover, the MS planned to build “Pobeda” and “Gromoboy” according to a completely different project - on the basis of the “Peresvet” project, it was planned to lay down a reworked project with a two-shaft propulsion plant of 20,000 hp from the German company “Vulcan” (it was ready in the fall of 1898, developed by order of the MS RI). With a lowered forecastle, a full-fledged upper belt including ends, with a casemate battery like the Retvizan/Potemkin and improved 10" main battery guns. At a speed of 21 knots. It was planned to have at least 4 of these cruisers by the deadline, but they were going to order 6. It was these "best cruisers in the world" that Cramp was going to build for the Russian Empire; he really wanted to build these ships - two such armored cruisers and two battleships. Not counting the Varyag. And there was also Lagan, which had already accepted the order and was building the Bayan and really wanted to build battleships. It was also supposed to order 2 + 2. All the dancing with cuts, design revisions, etc. began around the middle of 1898. But it is the MS plans before Witte's intervention that are interesting. They are essentially flawless. When I first met them, I was surprised by their almost complete correspondence with my estimates for such a program, based on shipbuilding capabilities, existing weapons systems, and prospective projects. I was especially struck by the similarity in the appearance of a rank 1 armored cruiser—a near-total match. Which is logical, but for me, it's based on their hindsight, while the MS is based on long-term planning.
                      Cruisers.
                      The Diana project was planned to be a twin-shaft design with a 15,500 hp propulsion plant, 2 x 8" single-gun turrets, and 8 x 6" propellers. It was similar to the Bayan, but without belt armor. A speed of 22 knots was entirely achievable. The powerplant was approximately 7000 tons. Now compare this design with the real "goddesses." Three or four such cruisers could have been built, with the keel laid down in 1898.
                      And from 4 to 6 "Askolds", 2 of which are at the "Germany" shipyard.
                      The Novik for the Russian Imperial Fleet could have been built to a completely different design. In early to mid-1898, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Empire approached the Schichau firm with a request to consider reworking the nearly completed three-shaft Novik design for a two-shaft propulsion plant with a 20,000-liter capacity, similar to the Vulcan, which was already under construction. According to the official version, Schichau protested, as the design was almost ready and the ship's keel was being prepared. This allegedly led to the refusal. In reality, things were somewhat different – ​​the firm expressed willingness to create a new design, but only the completed design would be paid for. This was a cost overrun, but it would have given the RIF the opportunity to acquire not a 3000-ton light three-shaft cruiser with limited range, but a fully-fledged light cruiser with excellent range, good seaworthiness due to a well-developed forecastle, a 4000-45000-ton capacity, and better armament (8-10 x 120 mm), with a speed of 25 knots+. Such cruisers were built in Germany, but for themselves and in fairly large series. They turned out to be very successful for their time. But the idea for such a light cruiser was suggested to the Germans by our MS. But Witte refused to pay for the new project, reduced the order from Schichau from 4 cruisers to one prototype, and even got into trouble with it by sending his agent to steal technical documentation for Novik, which the company refused to give up without payment.
                      If we had excluded all of Witte's antics and simply allowed the original plans and programs of the Military School to be realized, Russia would have had a fleet in the Far East in 1903 of such strength that it would have precluded even the thought of war with Japan. And Russia had the money for it. And all the expenses would have been more than recouped by the consolidation of new, vast and very promising territories for Russia to develop.
                      This is what you need to know to assess the real capabilities of the Russian Empire and the ability of the General Staff and the Military Staff to plan and program for future wars. But these plans were simply not implemented. The evil will of Witte and the stupidity of the last Russian Tsar.
                      1. -1
                        20 July 2026 12: 50
                        Bayard, according to the military theory of the time, the ratio of cruisers to battleships should be at least 2 to 1, especially for the Pacific Ocean. (This was no longer true for World War I, due to the advent of seagoing destroyers of 1200-1400 tons, which took over the role of light cruisers.) Now let's look at what forces we should have concentrated by 1905: 10 battleships, including three light Peresvet-class semi-raiders, five armored cruisers (three renders, the Bayan, and the Dm. Donskoy, as a training vessel), seven six-thousanders, three of which were slow Dianas, and five small ones, including Almaz. I'm retelling my other article now, but it's an "alternative." Total: 1,7 cruisers per battleship—less than necessary. Of these: 3 Ruriks, an Almaz, and 3 Dianas (also built as raiders, and with design errors) - are unsuitable for either reconnaissance or mine defense. So, out of 17 cruisers, minus 7, only 10 remain. By 1904, it is possible to concentrate an equal fleet, due to the redistribution of resources (we are not deepening the P-A, here are the 11 million already allocated, but there are other sources. Finally, Chukhnin's detachment. That is, an equal fleet is not a problem, but a better ratio is needed. I achieved it, with slightly different ships (real for that time, and not transferred from the future), with a different fleet structure - Admiral Alekseev from 1897, two Peresvets operate not against Ebrets, but against Brks, with their Brks.
                        Regarding the real fleet: 1) a lack of cruisers for reconnaissance; 2) a lack of cruisers for mine defense, and the 6000-class cruisers are very poorly suited for it. 3) Rurik-class cruisers are weak and very expensive, and there is no need to build pure raiders (Admiral Alekseev's opinion in 1897). 4) From a raiding perspective, being in Vladivostok will not yield any success – all Japanese sea routes are south of Tsushima and on the east coast – therefore, the benefit of raiding is minimal. Regarding raiding, I have five juicy quotes from admirals of that era, the gist of which is: "Raiding only has a chance if the enemy's battlefleet is first defeated." From this perspective, Russia's infatuation with raiders is pointless against England (it would only need to blockade the Danish straits and ports in the Russian Far East—and there would be no raiding. Makarov states this directly: "All Russian raiders will be doomed."
                        The Far Eastern fleet must be stronger than the Japanese (at least not weaker) – wherever it's deployed. If it's stronger, then Mozampo is begging to be captured. Professor Kladov's 1903 quote should be added to the list: "The Russian fleet in the 1905 war must aim to capture Mozampo." Then why not 1897? It's much simpler. The Japanese are still weak and won't act against Russia, since Germany and France supported them a year ago. As for the Tsar and Witte, I agree. Dalny is apparently a money-laundering den – Sergei Vasiliev. The CER is strategic folly; the route runs through foreign territory, it needs to be guarded, troops must be kept in place, the surrounding area is unstable – a massive waste of resources.
                      2. -2
                        20 July 2026 15: 57
                        Have you decided to review the entire course of events since the early 1890s? Al-3 was still alive then. It's enough to protect him from assassination attempts, and he'll rule for another 20 years. This means that only the right and optimal decisions will be made. He was killed (poisoned, disguised as medicine during a cold) to ensure Russia's defeat. Then the Japanese wouldn't have dared to act so quickly, and he wouldn't have brushed aside Friars Grand Duke Wilhelm's offer, but would have set strict conditions. And he probably would have drawn Paris in as well (I've already explained how and why France itself would have asked to join this alliance). Let's not forget that P. Arthur was hired after Germany acquired Jin Dao. Even if Liaodong had been chosen under his rule, it would have been immediately strengthened and developed. It was already clear why and at what cost. The funds were there. Read Sharapov.
                        Quote: Alexander Iloev
                        The ratio of cruisers to battleships should be at least 2 to 1, especially for the Pacific Ocean.

                        It was planned like this: 10 battleships, 4 armored cruisers, 10 2nd rank cruisers (six-thousanders), 10 3rd rank light cruisers.
                        That's how many (at least) they planned to build and assemble in the Far East by mid-1903 (the deadline for the Japanese ships to be ordered). And they would have been built, if the slipways hadn't been idle for over a year, if they hadn't started changing the designs, revising the deadlines and quantities, or delaying financing (the money was there!).
                        Quote: Alexander Iloev
                        10 battleships, including 3 weak Peresvet semi-raiders.

                        At the time, no one considered the Peresvets to be battleships. They were called "cruiser-raiders," and they certainly weren't counted. And when Russian admirals wrote about expensive raiders after the war, they had them in mind first and foremost, not the Rurik, Rossiya, or Gromoboi.
                        In Artur they planned to have exactly 10 battleships equivalent to the Japanese ones: 5 of the newest "Borodinets" of the "Improved Potemkin" design, 2 battleships of foreign construction, and 3 "Poltavets". A total of 10. By mid-to-late 1903.
                        With armored cruisers it was a bit more complicated. In the spring of 1898, the Marine School insisted on laying down the Pobeda and Gromoboy according to the Improved Peresvet project - a 20,000 hp blower propulsion plant, a lowered forecastle, a casemate battery like the Potemkin at 12 x 6 ". A continuous upper armor belt to the ends, a speed of 21 knots. The propulsion plant from the Vulcan company was ready by the fall of 1898, so there was just time to complete the project and place orders for laying down no later than the beginning of autumn. Two more of the same cruisers were to be built by Kramp, as well as two battleships. If the plans had remained unchanged, the battleships would have been ordered and laid down (all 5) back in 1898 and 1899. And they would have entered service on A year and a half earlier. That is, in the spring-summer of 1903, the last of the four, "Slava", was understandably behind, but she would have been ready a year and a half earlier than the actual deadline for her delivery. So, even without taking into account the construction of two armored cruisers in Germany, we have quite a beauty in armored cruisers. 4 newest + 2 "Peresvetets" + two German (the Kaiser would never have banned the construction of armored ships for us, if not for Nikola's refusal of the alliance and Witte's antics with the theft of technical documentation and the cancellation of previously placed orders. In total, with the German ones, we have 6 full-fledged, the most powerful high-speed (21 knots) armored cruisers in the world at that time, 2 "Peresvetets", which in terms of speed were only suitable for use as battleships, and this is not counting the "Bayan", of which they actually wanted to order 4 units. And they ordered it. Only after the war. fool
                        That is, the "Bayans" were not considered armored cruisers at all; they were armored reconnaissance aircraft attached to the squadron and were considered on a par with the rest of the "six-thousanders."
                        The "Goddesses" were supposed to be built according to the original design - like the "Bayan" but without belt armor. The armament was the same: a 15,500 hp propulsion plant. Speed ​​22 knots. These would have been good cruisers, which the dogs would better not get in their way. So, to these 3-4 "goddesses" add the "Varyag", two German-built "Askolds" and 3-4 domestically built ones. That's the complete beauty and set. Even without taking into account the "Bayans", of which there could have been at least 2, and 4 as an optimum.
                        And this is without taking into account that Lagan wanted to build us not one, but two battleships.
                        And despite the fact that in the spring of 1898, we already had access to a 17,000-horsepower propulsion plant (Bayan was already under construction), our battleships could easily achieve 19 knots during trials. Just how easily the Retvizan achieved this after the Japanese replaced their propellers with efficient ones after the war.
                        Should I remind you about "Novikov"?
                        Four of them were to be built by Schichau, the remaining six we ourselves, but with their technical support. And that's without counting the small "Boyarin" - a gift from the Danish royal family.
                        We managed to build everything without rush jobs, stress, or unnecessary expenses - calmly, systematically, but laying down ships ON TIME, and financing their construction rhythmically, promptly, and in full.
                        None of this was done under Witte, so they built just the right amount, and LITTLE, untimely, with constant mockery of Common Sense.
                        So, either Arthur or Mozampo. But Liaodong was convenient for maintaining order in the enclave. Arthur was inconvenient as a base, but we could have brought it into order. Simply by buying two more dredges, which would have dug both fairways by the deadline. And for our already quite large fleet, we would have two bases - Arthur and Dalniy.
                        You understand, Russia at that time certainly wasn't looking to occupy or seize anything else. We'd already grabbed too big a chunk, and it had to be held first, and then "assimilated." We didn't need Korea, but we also didn't need Japan in Korea. If we had an equal or stronger navy, Japan might have decided to land in Korea, but nothing more. And we would have stopped their troops at the 38th parallel. That's where the war would have continued while we finished building the railway. Then the reserves would have arrived, and Kuropatkin would have done to Japan everything he had planned as the outcome of the war.
                        I'm tired of going over the possible scenarios of that war. The authorities did absolutely everything in it contrary to common sense, military science, and Russia's political and geostrategic interests.
                        But any alternative would have been possible only if Witte had been promptly exposed and hanged for treason and the attempted murder of the Tsar's family during the collapse he orchestrated in Borki. Then, all the above-described plans would have been realized, and we would have a completely different history today.
          2. The comment was deleted.
    4. 0
      19 July 2026 19: 49
      Bearded Man and the admirals, given the system they served under, were remarkably capable. But it was a very inflexible system that undermined their qualities.
      1) The Japanese held two admirals in high esteem: Makarov and Dubasov. They even considered Dubasov "the most dangerous Russian admiral." However, he was appointed head of the MTC, where he failed to perform at all—a very unfortunate appointment, if not downright sabotage. His place should have been either a combat admiral or a diplomat.
      Example 2: Admiral Rozhdestvensky. If he had been given free rein, he would have broken through to Vladivostok while the Japanese were repairing their ships. But he was delayed several times.
      This reveals a Russian flaw that hasn't gone away: a lack of trust in those responsible, keeping them on a tight leash of approvals, meetings, and the like. This is very different from the German system: "There's a directive, there's a task. How you carry it out is up to you." Generally, it was followed and worked. That is, the admirals were quite capable, but the conditions they worked in didn't allow them to demonstrate their best qualities. More information about admirals can be found on "naval-manual."
      1. +1
        20 July 2026 08: 53
        Quote: Alexander Iloev
        A Russian flaw that hasn't gone away: a lack of trust in performers, and keeping them on a short leash of approvals, meetings, and the like.

        To be fair, a similar situation existed in the British navy, where the advent of radio allowed the Admiralty to attempt to "direct the war live on air."
    5. 0
      27 July 2026 11: 49
      Bearded Man, please tell me which of the historical figures I quoted in the article is an alternative historian.
  2. +3
    12 July 2026 04: 32
    Quote: Bearded
    Nicholas II's admirals and generals were unprepared for modern warfare.
    Throughout the history of warfare, admirals and generals have never been prepared for modern warfare. This applies to both our own and foreign generals and admirals.
    1. +4
      12 July 2026 07: 22
      Tell that to the Prussian generals during the wars with Austria and France in the second half of the 19th century. Or to the German generals in Poland and France in 1939-1940. They were the ones who created these "modern wars."
      1. -3
        12 July 2026 10: 26
        Thanks to the author for a very detailed article! hi But Soviet naval analysts were a bit ahead of him. They took everything apart, piece by piece. No need for complications, it's all very simple. What Tsushima ports, what Cargodo? stop It's very simple. The entire Pacific Fleet was trapped in vulnerable Port Arthur, and only four cruisers remained in Vladivostok. But these cruisers nearly disrupted all Japanese logistics. negative If the bulk of the Pacific Fleet had been based in Vladivostok, the Russo-Japanese War would have been a resounding loss for the yuppies! good negative And this is not my opinion, I just warmly support it! good
        1. +4
          12 July 2026 11: 59
          Quote: Proxima
          But these cruisers almost disrupted all Japanese logistics.

          It's just a pity the Japanese didn't notice this.
          Quote: Proxima
          If the bulk of the Pacific Fleet were based in Vladivostok

          Blocking it would be even easier.
          1. +1
            12 July 2026 19: 13
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            It's just a pity the Japanese didn't notice this.

            It's immediately obvious you're not aware of it. You've "noticed" it very much. Numerous ships carrying ammunition and even soldiers were sunk. The Japanese took the Russian cruisers' raiding actions extremely seriously!
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            Blocking it would be even easier.

            Well, who told you such nonsense? fool Well, look at the map, look at the logistics. It even says so in the article. My opinion is that Blockading Vladivostok is, to put it mildly, much more difficult than Port Arthur.
            1. +1
              12 July 2026 19: 41
              Quote: Proxima
              It's obvious you're not in the know.

              Yes, I know about it)
              Quote: Proxima
              Many ships were sunk

              10 transports and 12 schooners. A drop in the ocean. Another 4 transports were captured. A pittance.
              The Japanese took the raiding actions of the Russian cruisers extremely seriously!

              This didn't stop them from fighting.
              Quote: Proxima
              Well, who told you such nonsense?

              I'm telling you.
              Quote: Proxima
              Well, look at the map, look at the logistics.

              Read Yegoryev's book. Vladivostok is extremely far from both Japanese trade routes, which ran primarily along their southern shores, and from the army's supply routes, which ran along the western coast of Korea.
              Quote: Proxima
              Even the article says so.

              There are enough absurdities in the article.
              Quote: Proxima
              My opinion

              There's as much as you want. The Internet is still a free zone.
              Quote: Proxima
              Blockading Vladivostok is, to put it mildly, much more difficult than Port Arthur.

              On the contrary. Vladik couldn't be blockaded only because the main parts of the Japanese fleet were occupied by Port Arthur. If Port Arthur didn't need to be blockaded, then all of Togo's forces were occupied by Vladivostok.
              There are only four exits from the Sea of ​​Japan. Two of them (the Tartary and La Perouse Straits) are extremely difficult to navigate. That leaves Tsugaru and Tsushima. Even if our forces manage to break through, they won't have enough coal to last long. And they'll be intercepted on the way back.
              1. +2
                13 July 2026 12: 37
                It should be added that Vladivostok also has such a factor as ice cover; this may be more or less pronounced, but the sea can actually freeze over.
                Port Arthur made sense when our army dominated the mainland, Manchuria, and Korea. Alas, this did not happen; the war was lost on land first, and only afterward did the devastation of Tsushima occur. In many ways, this characterizes Nicholas II himself; at the very least, the outcome of Tsushima could have been avoided and more favorable terms obtained during the armistice negotiations had he stopped the squadron, whose campaign became futile with the loss of Port Arthur.
                Since it was not destined for such a king to win the war with the "macaques"...
              2. +1
                14 July 2026 04: 26
                Senior Seaman. You write about "many absurdities" because, by some twist of fate, you wrote an article with the opposite opinion. But you didn't include a single quote. My article is based solely on quotes, and not everything was included. You should have written, for example, that the authors mentioned are writing absurdities. Of course, that requires experience at sea, and you probably have that, but do you also have command experience? Forgive me, I'm reminded of our previous altercations about alternative history, where you also didn't bother with arguments and immediately resorted to personal attacks.
                1. +1
                  14 July 2026 08: 05
                  Quote: Alexander Iloev
                  You write about “many absurdities” because, by the will of fate, you wrote an article with the opposite opinion.

                  No, I wrote it this way because I read a lot about the Russo-Japanese War and thought about it. I advise you to do the same.
                  Quote: Alexander Iloev
                  You should write, for example, that the authors mentioned write nonsense.

                  I wrote something in the comment that neither you nor the mentioned authors paid attention to.
                  Quote: Alexander Iloev
                  Forgive me, I remembered the previous skirmishes on alternative history

                  What nickname were you there with?
                  Quote: Alexander Iloev
                  You also didn't bother with arguments and immediately resorted to personal attacks.

                  Are you sure you haven't confused me with someone else?
                  1. 0
                    14 July 2026 12: 21
                    The older question is, "The turkey also thought." He "thought," you see, but somehow nothing changes in your versions except the boats. Do you know the era so well that you don't have to engage the opinions of the participants and historians? Please argue specifically with Makarov, Chikhachev, and others, but you prefer to ignore them, as if I'd expressed my own opinion. I naively assumed that an interested reader would consult the bibliography. If I give the name of an article, they'll read it. I must have had references somewhere that weren't missed. Then there would be no need to argue with me.
                    1. +2
                      14 July 2026 15: 04
                      Quote: Alexander Iloev
                      "The turkey thought so too"

                      And this person accused me of being rude and making personal attacks))))
                      I probably offended you a lot ten years ago, why are you so angry?
                      Quote: Alexander Iloev
                      Please argue specifically with Makarov, Chikhachev, and others.

                      I don't usually argue with the dead; they can't answer questions like, for example, how to build a railway to Kargod? Or how to hold Korea, given that in reality, the great powers even looked askance at our border guards in Manchuria.
                      You see, even authoritative authors shouldn't be taken lightly. After all, they're human too and could make mistakes.
                      Or how Mikhail Alexandrovich wrote his works in the late 20s, while being a “former”
                      Quote: Alexander Iloev
                      Then there will be no need to argue with me.

                      I have no need to argue with you. I expressed my opinion and substantiated it as best I could.
                      P.S. You mentioned Chikhachev...
                      But it was his idea to move the naval fleet's main base in the Baltic to Libau! Apparently, he had a thing about building bases right under the enemy's nose, where neither the navy nor the army could defend them. feel
                      1. +1
                        14 July 2026 17: 26
                        Senior Seaman, Yes, 10 years ago (7 years, to be exact) you deeply insulted me, that's true. I'm far from that, despite all my efforts.
                        Never mind. Regarding the railway, do I need to repeat what the article says? It's being built. From the south of Korea across Korea. It's being built without me. But I know where it will end, and I can build a railway to that point. It won't be longer than the South Manchurian Railway, judging by the map. In one place, Petrov laments that the Russians didn't keep the base on Tsushima. How did he expect to build a railway there? The answer: "no way." Just as there was no railway from England to Gibraltar, or from England to Malta. But unlike him, I don't "claim" that place.
                        Next. How did admirals Dubasov, Tyrtov, and Makarov plan to "build a railway" to southern Korea? Write something about their professional incompetence.
            2. 0
              13 July 2026 18: 54
              Quote: Proxima
              My opinion is that blocking Vladivostok is, to put it mildly, much more difficult than Port Arthur.

              Japan simply wasn't interested in Vladivostok. How many people lived in Primorye at the time? The climate was harsh. No one was stopping them from fishing anyway.
              This war was about dividing China, so the naval base was built in China. Korea was also of no interest to anyone back then.
              The war at sea was secondary. While the small ships were certainly attractive, the squadron's goal was to prevent an amphibious landing on the Liaodong Peninsula, and that was all. The fleet was to work closely with the ground forces.
              Another thing is that when the war began, there were no politicians in Russia who would take a sensible look at the situation and put the war in reverse. If we were losing on land, how could we achieve anything at sea?
              1. +2
                14 July 2026 04: 42
                Proxima, Vladivostok was of great interest to Japan. The first version of the article cited a historian who claimed Japan wanted to take Sakhalin, all of Primorye, and Kamchatka—the entire access to the sea. I don't remember this historian now; I sifted through a lot of them for this article, and the article is seven years old. Maybe I'll remember it, but there's no guarantee.
            3. +1
              14 July 2026 04: 33
              Proxima, please read the article on this topic, the title of which is listed in the "Vladivostok" section. I should have had a link, but it's gone now. But you can find it by title. It will explain why Vladivostok was worse defensively than Port Arthur. The article distorts my words, suggesting that Vladivostok would be taken by landing troops near it. I wrote nothing of the sort. Simply note the route to Vladivostok, my statement that the Japanese would be able to land in Dalny on the first day of the war, and that the single-track railway accumulated troops more slowly than the Japanese by sea. More details are in the aforementioned article, which is taken from a resource entirely devoted to the Russian Nuclear Forces, which also contains much more interesting information.
              1. -1
                14 July 2026 13: 26
                Well, the Japanese did enter Vladivostok a little later and took Primorye during the Civil War, so the course of real history itself confirmed their intentions.
                Do you intend to continue this topic? It's extensive, but extremely underdeveloped in terms of the true reasons, pretexts (true ones), role, and extent of participation of England and the United States in preparing and encouraging Japan for war. Witte's role, Russia's goals and objectives in Manchuria, and why the false start with Arthur's lease and Witte's sabotage of the financing of the Russian Empire's preparations for war were so disastrous. This is an interesting topic; consider continuing it.
                1. 0
                  14 July 2026 20: 07
                  Bayard, what's most interesting is that I don't remember the link, but I'll just convey the gist of what I read: before World War I, Japan purchased a lot of military equipment from England. When asked why, they answered, "for the war," but they refused to say with whom. Then World War I began, and apparently everything changed. Japan fought Germany. My hypothesis is that they wanted to fight Russia specifically, since the goals of 1904 hadn't been fully achieved.
                  1. -1
                    15 July 2026 09: 43
                    Japan might have tried to start a war with Russia if Russia had remained out of the conflict. But that would have immediately pushed Russia toward rapprochement with Germany. WWI would certainly have taken a radical turn, even though Germany, without Russia as its opponent, was already capable of quickly crushing France, and England would likely have simply seized its colonies, as it had a navy.
                    For the Russian Empire, a new war with Japan would have been no less difficult than the previous one—all logistics were suspended on the thin, single-track Trans-Siberian Railway. The Japanese could have captured part of Manchuria and even Primorye in the initial phase (they had no navy to counter it), but then everything would have rolled back, as happened in the 20s, when the USSR recaptured Primorye. Moreover, an alliance with Germany would have made this easier. If England hadn't withdrawn from WWI after losing France, it would have been in serious trouble. After all, all it had was a navy. Therefore, the capture of Gibraltar by land, and if necessary, the withdrawal of all allied naval forces to the eastern Mediterranean and the transfer of ground armies through Turkey (OI) to Suez. Next, the British are driven out of India and... the already built German and Russian fleets destroy the British fleet right on its shores.
                    So it was VERY unfavorable for England to allow Japan to attack Russia during WWI, especially if it was not participating in it... And especially (!) if it was participating in it.
                    Can you imagine the Russian Empire withdrawing from WWI and making a separate peace with Germany under the pretext of needing to repel Japanese aggression in the Far East? Everything is exactly as described above, but at the same time, we will be beating the British and the traitorous French far more fiercely than we would the Germans in the real WWI. And we have enough troops for the Far East.
                    England certainly could not afford such (stupidity/oversight).
                    1. 0
                      15 July 2026 21: 50
                      Bayard, as I read, Japan wanted to attack someone before World War I, and there were only two countries available at the time: Germany or Russia. I'm assuming it was Russia, simply by logic: you have to finish one before moving on to the other, and all the goals set in the 1904 war were not achieved.
                      1. 0
                        16 July 2026 02: 31
                        Japan simply knew that a war of all against all was about to break out in Europe and was planning to profit from it. It didn't matter whether it was Germany or Russia. Well, the fact that it had its eye on all of Manchuria was obvious.
                        Japan had already bitten off too much in the previous war and was having a hard time digesting it. After all, it wasn't until 1945 that it was able to economically develop the captured territories. But that's just the way the mentality works. It can only be cured by a VERY severe defeat. And that's the defeat they suffered.
                2. 0
                  19 July 2026 18: 47
                  I don't want to, in light of such extensive criticism.
                  Just on this website, there's an article about the CER—what a mistake it is. But if that's the case, then the construction of Port Arthur must also be a mistake, since the only "strong" argument for its supporters is the railway, which is declared a mistake. Yesterday, I found another article on this topic: both the CER and Port Arthur.
                  I actually have some estimates for how to redistribute resources to make the Russian fleet in the Far East stronger than the Japanese one.
                  But there's also criticism of the Russian fleet, not just my own, but with sources cited, in which Kolchak played a significant role—he became a military theorist by analyzing the Russian navy's mistakes. And since it's been said how not to build it, I could have written about how it should have been built: the fleet's structure, the types of vessels. Otherwise, they'd say I'm criticizing without offering anything. But I've already been labeled an alternative writer, so this article won't be published. I hate this squabble, which I find myself the target of. There are analyses of the shortcomings of the Russian army in 1812 and later, and that topic is infinitely closer to my heart. This article will probably remain the only one; I simply wanted to preserve it.
                  1. -1
                    20 July 2026 00: 38
                    Don't pay any attention to these canaries, they're here mainly for sR@4@. And Kolobov from Chelyabinsk is an ordinary economist who never even served in the army. Out of boredom, he read a bunch of books and now posts his notes and essays. He digs into the details and doesn't do any systematic analysis, which is simply beyond his capabilities. Sailor just comes here to make a mess, even though he's already dreamed up so much. There are four trolls here. I think you've already recognized them.
                    Two respected authors of this site asked me to write a series of articles on the subject of the Russian Revolution from the political, economic, and financial perspectives (I've touched on this topic many times). However, circumstances prevent me from preparing truly high-quality material – my library and archives are currently unavailable, and they contain much interesting material. The topic needs to be explored exhaustively and based on documents. I have them, but they're not here. However, I also suggested you read one book that will allow you to examine those events, their nature, causes, and motives with a clear eye. It could set the right direction for the study of Russian history and history in general.
                    You submitted proposals for the Pacific Fleet base before Artur was leased. Several options were under consideration, and no one could have imagined the sabotage and mayhem Witte would unleash in the run-up to the war he had made inevitable. Russia had every chance, opportunity, capability, means, plans, and desire to acquire a powerful fleet in the Far East, superior to the Japanese fleet with ample reserves. And on the eve of war, up to 300,000 and even 500,000 bayonets and sabres could have been brought in by sea for ground forces. Moreover, it was planned to allocate land to soldiers and sailors after their service, i.e., populate new lands (with leave to start a family), and provide relocation allowances and cash loans. New cities would be populated, factories and plants built, and trade and industry engaged. Read Sharapov's account of these plans. Read about the original shipbuilding program for the Far East. The Japanese never had a chance if it had been implemented. That's why Witte distorted, shortened, and thwarted it. Read what Sharapov wrote about him; they were archenemies and antagonists. A genius (Sharapov) and a villain. Unfortunately, there are no modern works on this topic. I was asked, but I'll pass now. You try. But first, gather some material and be sure to read the suggested book. If you decide to, I'll suggest more sources. But I warn you, this is a dangerous topic, and similar canaries will jump around like crazy, just like on this forum. Which means you're headed in the right direction.
                    Or try analyzing the original shipbuilding program from the Moscow School for the Russian Navy. I suggested this topic to Kolobov, and he actually found the material and posted an article. But there was no analysis, no valid conclusions, just a list of projects that were planned and under consideration. He can't go deeper. He doesn't want to. And he has a grandmother. And he's even more afraid to touch on Witte.
                    It's easier for me. In the early 90s, I worked in one of Jacob Rothschild's (English, former clan leader) main control and management structures in the USSR/Russia. Right at the turning point.
                    1. 0
                      20 July 2026 13: 40
                      Bayard, unfortunately, I'm not a historian either. But I'm a techie, and I know I shouldn't offer up versions off the top of my head. I've been interested in the Napoleonic Wars since I was seven, and I became interested in the Russian Yamalo-Nenets Autonomous Region seven years ago when I read a few articles by amateurs. I found them to be overlooking certain points, so I wrote my own article about the P-A, the first edition, with only quotes from Alternat. Histories. There I met Senior Sailor, who is now very polite compared to what he's capable of, Andrey, and another opponent. Frankly, I'm very uncomfortable after every interaction with opponents; it ends with personal attacks, and the personalities of those whose opinions I'm citing.
                      I don't have time for new articles right now. I wanted to "close the loop," because I keep returning to the topic. I forgot about it for about four years, and then again. Yesterday I found an article and realized I'd missed a powerful argument against the P-A. It's not that I didn't know, but I merely hinted: "The occupation of the P-A is the end of a real Russo-Chinese alliance against Japan," after which China didn't even think about adhering to it.
                      So I won’t write any articles now, besides, I’m starting to write about what needs to be changed, and that’s already an alternative.
                      1. -1
                        20 July 2026 16: 23
                        Well, as you know, the topic has really been beaten to death, but not by normal researchers, conscientious military specialists and analysts, but by trolls like the ones you mentioned. No one can enjoy interacting with people like that. So just don't feed the trolls with your conversations. Or beat them with arguments, but specifically as trolls, not as opponents or manipulators. Target their weaknesses, and they are well-known. That's their job here.
                        Besides, this area (the history of a distant war) falls into the "entertaining reading" category. Serious authors haven't published on this site or in this area for a long time. It's a shame. I'd like both serious material and thoughtful analysis. But trolls always come running. Being untalented themselves, they always try to shit under the door. But they really don't like it when you force them to eat what they've dumped on you. And that's exactly what you should feed trolls. Or just ignore their dancing.
      2. +1
        13 July 2026 04: 31
        Tell that to the Prussian generals during the wars with Austria and France in the second half of the 19th century. Or to the German generals in Poland and France in 1939-1940. They were the ones who created these very "modern wars."

        The whole point is that French and Austrian generals were far less prepared for modern warfare than German generals. That's the whole answer. You forgot to mention World War I, which transformed from a war of maneuver into a trench war, for which the generals were completely unprepared. Just as the admirals were unprepared for a war involving submarines.
    2. +3
      14 July 2026 05: 06
      Bearded man, the admirals turned out to be up to par, as you can find on the "naval-manual" channel, by name, but the system is to blame, and I've tried to illustrate this within the allotted space. There's a saying, "order beats class," and it's true for both good and bad. It's so easy to say, "The admirals are to blame," which means everything was done correctly, and there's no need to draw any conclusions. For example, even today, you could cite one decent general, but he didn't fit into the system... and he's stuck in jail.
  3. 0
    12 July 2026 04: 45
    Thanks to Comrade Stalin for the Kuril Islands and Sakhalin. He just fell for the US's "friendliness" and, for some reason, gave them half of Korea.
    1. +1
      12 July 2026 17: 30
      They took South Korea with their landing force; our troops simply didn't have time. And the preliminary agreements were more or less the same. The USSR didn't have the navy back then to take the "Hokkaido" we were supposed to.
  4. 0
    12 July 2026 07: 19
    In Europe, France was Russia's ally. The goal of Russian diplomacy was to ensure that Germany, which had already firmly decided that its future lay in the oceans and colonies, became such an ally, at least in the Pacific.

    Unrealistic. By that time, war between the Germans and the French was inevitable.
    1. -1
      12 July 2026 17: 53
      Quote: Dart2027
      Unrealistic. By that time, war between the Germans and the French was inevitable.

      Not yet. Just the day before, Japan was expelled from Kwantung by the "triple ultimatum" of Russia, Germany, and France. The Germans then took over the trading port of Zindao, also establishing a naval base there. But they were very concerned about the security of this acquisition. That's why the Kaiser tried to persuade Nika to form an alliance in the Far East. Russia benefited from such an alliance in many ways, including counterbalancing the undesirable strengthening of France's influence in its foreign policy. It could also, through its mediation, arbitrate their territorial disputes. Why would they start a world war for a disputed patch of territory in Europe when there was so much land overseas for development and as markets? Alexander III would have done exactly that – he would have balanced the treaty with France with a treaty with Germany, limiting this treaty to the Far Eastern and Pacific regions. And there would have been no Kaiser's ban on the construction of armored ships in Germany for foreign customers. The Vulkan firm (as originally planned) would have built two large armored cruisers to our order, based on the "improved Peresvet" project, with a 20,000-hp propulsion plant, a lowered forecastle, a continuous upper armor belt, and a casemate battery like the Retvizan/Potemkin. With a displacement of 12,500-13,000 tons and a speed of 21 knots, they would have become the "swallows" of our Pacific Fleet during the Russian Nuclear War. With two similar, domestically built (instead of the Gromoboy and Pobeda, as planned by MS), and two more built at the Cramp shipyard in the USA, we would have our own high-speed wing of the armored forces to counter the Japanese, with complete superiority in quality, combat, and firepower. Practically, a cut above.
      "An alliance of three continental powers"—that's what the British called these countries after their joint ultimatum to Japan. And England feared such an alliance. That's why it urgently began arming and building the Japanese navy, and then proposed a "defensive alliance," while also urging the United States to join the "alliance of maritime powers" against the "alliance of continental powers."
      The author is certainly right that Port Arthur was chosen incorrectly as the naval base and became a trap for us, wasting forces, time, and resources. At that time, we were only interested in Northern Manchuria and Korea. And we would have had enough resources and time to prepare for war, to strengthen and hold them.
      This is not an alternative fantasy, but real plans and calculations that the foolish king brushed aside... and lost EVERYTHING. Even his life and the life of his family.
      1. -1
        12 July 2026 18: 05
        Quote: bayard
        Not yet. Just the day before, Japan was expelled from Kwantung by the "triple ultimatum" of Russia, Germany, and France.

        They might have been situational allies, somewhere on the other side of the world, but overall they waited and prepared. And eventually, not alone of course, they launched WWI.
        Quote: bayard
        The author is certainly right that Port Arthur was chosen incorrectly as the main naval base and became a trap for us.

        Maybe. On the other hand, we don't know if there was an alternative.
        1. -1
          12 July 2026 21: 11
          Quote: Dart2027
          They could be situational allies

          They were, and became, situational allies. Remember their joint suppression of the Boxer Rebellion. But if they had worked together twice on a fairly serious matter and it had generally worked out well, then why not continue? Let's not forget that the Kaiser really wanted it, and it was advantageous for us. And through us - the Russian Empire (having a single and very necessary ally for them), and they themselves could already resolve their squabbles without beatings. This often happens in life, and it happens in politics too. We would not have become friends, but it would have become easier to resolve disagreements - there is always a mediator. And yes - both of these alliances were local in nature - with the French in Europe, and the Germans in the Far East. But this alliance did not take place, despite the fact that many in Russia, including the General Staff and the Ministry of Defense, advocated it, this gave us greater stability. But there were also Anglophiles at court, there was also Witte, who was categorically against it, and made the decision on Arthur almost single-handedly "through the Tsar". As a result, in the Russian Empire there was one against the "coalition of the willing". England and the USA intensively financed and supplied Japan, incited and hurried it to war. And the Minister of Finance (and then the Prime Minister) did everything in his power to slow down and limit the funding of the construction of the Navy, the training of the Army, the purchase of shells, machine guns, preemptive deployment due to the proximity of war, the early transfer of troops from the European part by sea, recalled "extra" ships from the Far East, delayed ships heading to Arthur in Suez with his telegrams under the most ridiculous pretexts (for example, he ordered numbered destroyers to be towed behind the battleships. They could not withstand the waves, ran into the sterns of the battleships, one or two tore their bows apart and were forced to stop in Suez for repairs ... There is a real detective story there, if you start to look into it.
          Quote: Dart2027
          We don't know if there was an alternative.

          There was an alternative, as the author's article discusses, with links and quotes from primary sources. Many sailors and commanders wrote about this both before and especially after the Russian Nuclear War, analyzing the reasons for its unfortunate course and outcome.
          I don't entirely agree with the benefits of locating the naval base in southwest Korea. Simply because there simply wouldn't have been time to extend a railway there before the war, and to reliably supply the squadron and garrison by sea alone, naval dominance, repair facilities, and docks were essential. Without these, it would have been impossible to rebuild everything before the Russian Nuclear War. I'm neither prepared to support nor refute this because there's insufficient data for analysis; a good review series is needed, and if the author continues to publish on this topic, I'd be very grateful.
          There was an alternative to stationing the fleet not at Arthur, but at a distant port, where there was more space, sufficient depth, and less dependence on the tide. And they even managed to build a dry dock there, unlike at Arthur. The problem was that Witte didn't allow military personnel there, categorically refusing to establish coastal defenses or station a garrison, because "it's a commercial port; military personnel would only get in the way." As a result, the port, the city, and the railway leading to it were built for the Japanese, which they happily took advantage of.
          There aren't just many alternative options for the Russian Nuclear Forces... there are an infinite number of them, because on the Russian side, almost everything was done incorrectly, at the wrong time, insufficiently, and vice versa. Although in the original plans of the General Staff and the Military Staff, everything was carefully considered and quite competent. But they weren't the ones making the decisions.
          1. 0
            12 July 2026 22: 05
            Quote: bayard
            Remember the joint suppression of the Boxer Rebellion. But if they worked together twice on a fairly serious matter and it worked out well overall, then why not continue?

            But they didn't continue. What prevented them from reaching an agreement without Russia?
            Quote: bayard
            Although the initial plans of the General Staff and the Military Staff were well-thought-out and quite competent, they weren't the ones making the decisions.

            From a military point of view, yes, but there is also politics.
            1. -1
              12 July 2026 23: 12
              Quote: Dart2027
              What prevented them from reaching an agreement without Russia?

              Almost everything. The French were terrified of the Germans, so they requested an alliance with the Russian Empire to keep the Germans from reconquering Paris. The Germans considered it unfair that weak European countries had so many colonies, while the most developed and powerful country in Europe, Germany, had no colonies, and what they had bought for themselves as trading posts was small. They wanted to get what they needed from the French colonies; they needed it to expand their markets and for economic development, to dump their surplus population there. They couldn't agree in principle, so they often spoke through Russia.
              But the situation in the Far East was different: the Germans had acquired a new colony/trading post in Jin Dao, but felt insecure there. So, when the Russian Empire began its Far Eastern program and took over Arthur, the Kaiser immediately proposed a so-called "regional union" for mutual support. This was very useful and promising for the Russian Empire, but stupid Nicky didn't understand it. Germany could support (and did support) our shipbuilding program "for the needs of the Far East." The Germans developed modern, fast, and very good cruisers and destroyers for our fleet, their colliers supplied the 2nd Squadron during all their ordeals, and even the best song of that war, "Varyag," was written by a German officer, inspired by the heroism of the Russian sailors and in solidarity with them. We have such mournful songs from that war that you want to hang yourself listening to them. But "Varyag" was our favorite marching song during our cadet years. So the Germans were truly sincere supporters of ours back then and could have become very reliable allies in the region and in general. Not like the French, who were "with a fig in their pocket."
              And we didn't have to create some kind of "triumvirate"; it was enough to become an ally of both individually, and everything would have leveled out on its own. But England was very afraid of this alliance. Three of the most powerful economies in Europe, three of the most powerful land armies in the world, covering (mostly Russia, but nonetheless) the entire northern part of Eurasia, two of which had begun expansion into China (where England itself had already encroached from the south and even waged several Opium Wars)... and England immediately began to act.
              Quote: Dart2027
              From a military point of view, yes, but there is also politics.

              It wasn't even politics, but rather the state governance of the Empire, intercepted by the Spy at the Throne. From mid-1898 until his expulsion from the Russian Empire, the spy Rothschild-Witte almost single-handedly manipulated the Empire and the stupid Tsar like Karabas-Barabas rag dolls. Where do you think Alexei Tolstoy wrote his "Golden Key"? And what was meant by this Golden Key? What door did it open, and where did it open?
              And I will answer - the door to the Bright Future.
              Karabas-Rothschild-Witte also hunted for this Key, and even captured it by killing its creator (that's a whole other story), but the Key is Magic. And it only goes to a worthy person with a pure heart. And when such a person was found, the Key fell into his hands, and Soviet Russia soared into a Bright Future like Gagarin on a rocket. And when this person was gone, the successors stole it, ruined his inheritance, plundered and plundered the House he built, and then lost the Key itself. And now swindlers (Basilio and Alice) deceive foolish dolls "with four fists" and take their "gold coins" by deception or force.
              This will continue until the Man with a Pure Heart returns to this world. And then the Golden Key to a Bright Future will be in his hands again.
              But for now, only fools are on the horizon. Let the residents of... "our country" plow the "Field of Miracles." And in the Central Bank, Old Lady Shapoklyak hums her song.
              For a Miracle to happen again, it must be earned.
              1. +1
                13 July 2026 19: 30
                Quote: bayard
                Almost everything. The French were terrified of the Germans.

                That's the point - the union was impossible.
                Quote: bayard
                The Kaiser immediately proposed a so-called "regional union" to Russia for mutual support. This was very useful and promising for the Russian Empire, but stupid Nicky didn't understand it.

                But here, there were possible options—an alliance with Germany, without France, was possible. The problem here was the conflict with Austria-Hungary; whether it was possible to resolve it, I don't know.
                Quote: bayard
                It wasn't even politics, but rather the state administration of the Empire, intercepted by the Spy at the Throne.

                Yes, he was not alone there.
                Quote: bayard
                This will continue until the Man with a Pure Heart returns to this world. And then the Golden Key to a Bright Future will be in his hands again.

                You know, I have nothing against communism, if it were possible. People, alas, remain people.
                1. -2
                  13 July 2026 21: 08
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  That's the point - the union was impossible.

                  A trilateral one is a definite, I didn't even mention it. But an alliance with Germany in the Far East is perfectly possible. Moreover, the alliance with France was ending, and it would have been her choice – to renew it under new terms or to revert to England. After Russia's defeat in the Russian Revolutionary War, she did just that – reverted to England, but then dragged Russia and its stupid tsar into it. And that was definitely the end and death of the Empire. And all thanks to that idiot on the throne.
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  But here, there were possible options—an alliance with Germany, without France, was possible. The problem here was the conflict with Austria-Hungary; whether it was possible to resolve it, I don't know.

                  What problems are there with Austria-Hungary? We didn't have any territorial problems with them, although the Rusyns were drawn to us; I read their books from that time. And what does that have to do with the Far East?
                  It was important to Germany that Russia and its Pacific Fleet become the dominant force in the region; then the Germans would be secure in their possessions and their trade, which they were rapidly developing in Jindao. They couldn't maintain a powerful squadron there, and its maintenance wouldn't have paid for itself. But securing a regional alliance with the Russian Empire was a very advantageous solution. And it was advantageous for us, too. It was generally advantageous for us to have, if not an alliance, then a close partnership (as they say now) with Germany. This was a counterweight to England (and the Great Game was ongoing, it only ended after the disaster of the Russian Nuclear Forces), and also to balance France, as I've already written above.
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  Yes, he was not alone there.

                  But it was he who was the curator of both all the "Francophiles" and all the "Anglophiles." And if you remember how the whole yellow camp stood behind him (and in the Russian Empire it turned out to be almost entirely yellow, the only exception was stop Don't laugh\\ "Russian Invalid", and several church publications like "Troitsky Leaflet") press, as he deferred to it... But there were many others there too. There were also a lot of Germanophiles at court, darkness in the darkness, but at least they were neighbors, and the Empire had plenty of its own Germans. So it was the alliance with Germany that ruined many of the plans of England and its City, made France even more dependent (well, England won't save her from the Germans with its fleet, no matter what, they would still have to appease Russia. But not against Germany (as before), but for intercession and for keeping Germany out of war with France. And for this you have to pay. And pay generously. And not only with money, but also with loyalty, trade preferences, assistance with industrialization. And always with a bow.
                  Well, as for communism... the Chinese simply translated this term into their language, and they got it - "Power of Clans" (i.e. communities).
                  - Look, as the Chinese exclaimed, this is our village way of life, we are used to living in clans and communities. A good system, it suits us. And they began to build communism with Chinese characteristics. And as we can see, they were quite successful. The main thing is to shoot traitors in time and send the bill for the spent bullet to their relatives, and often, as a preventative measure. And Chinese communism did not abolish wealth. And Stalin's, by the way, did not either. It was Khrushchev who first abolished wealth, then prosperity... it's good that DyR@k@ was removed in time, otherwise he would have shod the country in bast shoes again.
                  1. +2
                    13 July 2026 21: 38
                    Quote: bayard
                    Trilateral - definitely, I didn't even mention it. But an alliance with Germany in the Far East - quite possible.

                    An alliance with Germany, with whom? France? No. Russia? Possible.
                    Quote: bayard
                    What are the problems with Austria-Hungary?

                    Balkans.
                    Quote: bayard
                    But it was he who was the curator of both all the "Francophiles" and all the "Anglophiles." And if you remember how the entire tabloid press (and in the Russian Empire it turned out to be almost entirely tabloid, the only exception being stop, don't laugh, "Russian Invalid," and a few church publications like "Troitsky Listok") stood behind him.

                    I'm not laughing, because "invalid" meant "combat veteran," not disabled as in crippled. In today's parlance, it would be "Russian war veteran." Back then, there were so many people at court wanting to form alliances, it was impossible to resist.
                    Quote: bayard
                    And they began to build communism with Chinese characteristics. And as we can see, they were quite successful.

                    No need, it's communism there only in name - billionaires, corporations, etc.
                    1. 0
                      13 July 2026 22: 45
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      Alliance with Germany of whom?

                      Of course, Russia and Germany, what does France have to do with it? Only in Indochina. However, it kept its cruiser as a stationary in Chemulpo.
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      Balkans.

                      The Balkans, yes, were difficult there; the liberated "Slavs" fought among themselves and with Turkey. But after Germany established its influence there, Austria could only grumble at Serbia. It was not worth our while to even meddle in that viper's nest. We simply needed to strengthen our influence by strengthening our economy, military potential, and navy. They were obliged to reach out to us, not us to draw them in with our diplomacy. There's no need to entice anyone. Our success in the Far East (the capture and economic development of Manchuria) would have made the Russian Empire far more attractive without any effort on our part—people always gravitate toward the Strong. And the failure of all these programs and the defeat in the Russian Empire orchestrated by Rothschild and Witte dealt such a severe blow to Russia's prestige and authority that even the absolute European border states began to openly despise us. These are the consequences of the stupidity, obtuseness, cowardice, and critical incompetence of the "last Romanov." Under him, no diplomacy could save him—the entire country was judged by his idiocy.
                      But before the Russian Revolution, the status of the Russian Empire was quite high, and Germany, not yet having a powerful fleet, sought an alliance, friendship and support from Russia.
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      I'm not laughing because "disabled" meant "combat veteran."

                      This is true, but even as early as 1905, the word "invalid" was perceived precisely as a cripple. This was an old veterans' newspaper. It was the only one to accept Sharapov's articles and publications; the entire press during the revolution turned out to be tabloid, and this even prompted special investigations by the Secret Chancellery and the General Staff. Sharapov himself wrote precisely this about his publications in "The Russian Invalid," that the newspaper's name was already strange and offensive. Later, he began publishing his own newspapers and founded his own printing house. He was completely surprised at the extent to which the "Russian" press was controlled by foreign banks and governments.
                      There have always been plenty of lobbyists for various unions and alliances, the point being that such an alliance was more beneficial to us than even an alliance with France. Well, I've already written about that. I generally consider it a great misfortune that Russia and Germany fought against each other in two world wars without any fundamental or even serious territorial claims. And our alliance against England was especially terrifying for the pirate island. Two of the strongest land armies, and with France (and where would it have gone?) – three of the largest armies, three of the largest economies (all in the top five economies). Given the stated goal and objective, the Russian Empire and Germany could have built a navy equal to England's, and with France, England would have simply cracked from the strain and gone bankrupt. Therefore, it was England that sowed discord and did not allow even an indirect alliance (through an alliance with Russia) between these three states.

                      Quote: Dart2027
                      There, communism is only in name - billionaires, corporations, etc.

                      Stalin was not at all in favor of poverty. The USSR during Stalin's time did not prohibit the opportunity to earn a lot and live richly. Production cooperatives and artels were encouraged by the state in every possible way, as were individual patents and copyrights for writers and scientists. If Stalin had lived another 10 years, the USSR would have become completely different from the Khrushchev-era slush we know today. Stalin was building a state of universal welfare and abundance, not Khrushchev's barracks for the poor.
                      The Chinese simply have their own form of communism – Chinese communism. Everyone lives well there, but some do better. This isn't forbidden, but every billionaire bears a social burden, and is controlled and directed by the CPC. Everything there is very interestingly arranged. It's not our fault; the current generation couldn't even cope with capitalism, and even under communism, the Chinese have the most billionaires. lol We should be envious here, not criticized as degenerates. They don't drape the Mausoleum, they honor Lenin and Mao Zedong, Pioneers in ties and white shirts salute, and Komsomol members (!!) are the most progressive youth. And the economy is booming.
                      And we have ?
                      And here we have it "like under Nicholas II".
                      1. -1
                        13 July 2026 22: 59
                        Quote: bayard
                        Of course, Russia and Germany, what does France have to do with it?

                        So, you initially wrote about the possibility of a permanent triple alliance? An alliance with Germany without France was possible.
                        Quote: bayard
                        We shouldn't have even gone into that snake pit before the time came.

                        But back then, there were strong ideas of Pan-Slavism. I don't approve of it, but that was the reality of the time.
                        Quote: bayard
                        the entire press during the revolution turned out to be yellow

                        Fact: Every first one should have been shot.
                        Quote: bayard
                        I generally consider it a great misfortune that Russia and Germany fought against each other in two world wars without having any fundamental or even serious territorial claims. And our alliance against England was especially terrifying for the pirate island.

                        True, but unfortunately the past cannot be changed.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Two of the strongest land armies, and with France (and where would it go?)

                        Here we go again. I agree about England.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Stalin was not at all in favor of poverty. The USSR during Stalin's time did not prohibit the opportunity to earn a lot and live richly. Production cooperatives and artels were encouraged in every possible way by the state.

                        But communism is precisely about striving for the abolition of private property and the transition to public ownership of the means of production.
                      2. -1
                        14 July 2026 00: 29
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        So, you initially wrote about the possibility of a permanent triple alliance?

                        This triple alliance was "potentially possible," but not directly, but first indirectly—through Russia's separate alliances with France and Germany. Let's imagine that the alliance with Germany (based on the "Far Eastern consensus") took place. What do we have with France? Three options:
                        - France says "fie" and, in tears, rushes into England's arms. This is possible, but disastrous for France, as it makes her vulnerable to Germany, where England's navy is certainly no help, and her land army is weak.
                        France is gritting its teeth, but remains in alliance with Russia until the end of the alliance treaty, especially since Russia continues to convince it that it will use all its influence to prevent a Franco-German war. But after the treaty expires, France will again be faced with a choice: renew the treaty, but under new conditions, or go over to England, which will not save it.
                        - France, having cried, but having used its wits, realizes that by entering this union as a third party, it becomes part of a truly Great Power, and this simultaneously eliminates/minimizes the threat from Germany - which is increasingly looking overseas and building a fleet.
                        Even France's most irrational choice in favor of England is, for Russia, a case of "the woman off the cart is easier for the horse," and it is immersed in its Far Eastern programs, increasingly devoting attention to them—a new industrial, economic, and military center of the Empire is being created there. European affairs are of less and less concern to us, and Germany has a free hand. This will lead to tension and confrontation between Germany and England, so Germany (as in reality) is building a strong navy. The Russian Empire, without suffering any damage or disruption to its plans due to the Russian Nuclear War, without losing its fleet, also continues to build a powerful fleet—notably in the Baltic, the Black Sea, and the Far East, where two large shipyards (in Artur and Dalniy) were planned back in 1898. Our approach remains the same: in the Baltic, the fleet must be equal to Germany's, and in the Far East... well, initially "stronger than Japan's," but if Japan or its fleet no longer exists, then it simply means the strongest fleet in the region. At the World Cup, we're simply building a sufficiently strong fleet, taking into account its deployment to the Mediterranean. Turkey, being Germany's ally, becomes... not an enemy for us, and our fleet easily allows it through if necessary. So what do we have?
                        If war breaks out in Europe and Germany crushes France, then England will ostensibly join in. No problem, Germany can handle both of them on land and won't let them into the Baltic. In the Far East, we have a powerful Pacific Fleet and a squadron of German cruisers nearby in Jin Dao. And since the war is already underway, Russia itself decides when to enter. But... since the main forces of the British fleet are guarding the motherland and blockading Germany from the sea, and also control Gibraltar and Suez... in the Far East (Asia Pacific), their naval forces remain very limited. And we have a powerful Pacific Fleet and German cruisers there. If France is against us, then the first thing we will do is take Indochina with the forces of our allied fleet - it's a matter of security. And then... Hong Kong, Singapore, the Straits of Malacca... what British forces will be there? They could easily be harassed or driven out altogether, if not destroyed. Besides, we have a fairly large permanent army in Manchuria, and already have mobilization potential. This means we can conduct large-scale amphibious operations. If England persists and doesn't leave the war, and Russia practically doesn't participate with its troops in Europe... we have the opportunity to send an army group of at least 500 to Northern India. Local princes have long been sending delegations to the tsar's viceroy asking for protection from the British. And now there is an excellent opportunity to honor these requests. A German corps could join the campaign. The Indian princes are promised and guaranteed the restoration of sovereignty and an alliance (or a protectorate, depending on the host country's wishes). As a result, a wave of anti-British uprisings will spread across India ahead of our troops, and the British will be driven out of India like a cork, having lost the "Pearl of the British Crown." And then the Pacific Fleet with its German cruisers will arrive.
                        In Europe, everything is also very interesting - the Entente without Russia and even against Russia ... is unviable and gathering everyone who got into it into this coalition in our reality will not be easy at all. Take Italy ... it is in historical conflicts with France, whose side will it take? In two world wars, it fought for both. But this time, the Entente will be fatally weaker on land ... and why join the weak? And Turkey is with us too. And Austria, no matter what. What am I getting at? To the fleet. The Black Sea Fleet, having entered the Eastern Mediterranean, joins up with the allied fleets and ... it is no longer clear how things will go at sea, especially if France has already been defeated on land. And without the French fleet, England is again alone against the entire collective farm. And from the Baltic, the Russo-German allied fleet is already advancing ... and, oddly enough, it is approximately equal to the entire British fleet. The British fleet is divided across several theaters of war. It's an unenviable situation, especially after the loss of India and all of Southeast Asia. Near Gibraltar, the British fleet is holding back the Allied naval forces, but the Pacific Fleet with German cruisers is already approaching from the south. Naval battles a la the old days are already raging near the British homeland, only the Russian Empire and Germany have twice the forces of the Germans back then... and the Russian Novik destroyers.
                        USA?
                        Who will the US side with in this scenario? Definitely on England's side? But why? After all, if the British Empire is being dismantled, now is the time and place for the US to start picking up the "British legacy"—it's more profitable that way.
                        So, even with France's defection to the Enemy (England), everything gradually shifts in our favor, and the British Empire ceases to exist as an Empire, or even as a state. And all participants are left to sort out its legacy. And it is truly vast, enough for everyone.
                        All that was needed was to hang Witte promptly for the assassination attempt on the royal family in Borki. He was then arrested and charged, but... the press, which was his accomplice, raised such a fuss that... Alexander III not only spared him, but even brought him closer to "calm the public." But he should have simply been hanged, and he himself would probably have lived a little longer. Maybe he would have had time to choose a smarter heir, so as not to ruin Russia.
                        Russia, in principle, could not have lost the Russian Nuclear War under normal circumstances, but... by some miracle it managed to do so, and perished 12 years after the end of the Russian Nuclear War.
                      3. -1
                        14 July 2026 00: 39
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        But communism is precisely about striving for the abolition of private property and the transition to public ownership of the means of production.

                        But public ownership doesn't necessarily mean state ownership. Not at all. Stalin believed that the most socialist form of ownership was public, i.e. collective, when enterprises belonged to the entire team. That's why he actively developed production cooperatives (even scientific and design ones), artels, and wrote a "uniform charter" for them, in which the rights of all cooperative members were protected and guaranteed. The state helped - it provided loans for development and working capital, allocated funds in the form of raw materials and other components on par with state-owned enterprises, helped with marketing, and often acted as the customer itself. Our famous Mil and Kamov design bureaus began as design cooperatives. And what do you think, if a jewelry cooperative established the production of exquisite jewelry from gold, platinum, silver, and precious stones... will its members definitely be "poor"? Or a cooperative producing televisions, radios, and tape recorders (all of this was produced ONLY by cooperatives back then), and highly artistic ones at that (when I was a kid, my jaw dropped the first time I saw such perfection)... All of this developed very rapidly in the USSR after the war, right up until 1955. And then Khrushchev took everything from the people. And put everyone on a beggarly tariff. Thus ended Stalin's Socialism and Khrushchev's Voluntarism began. hi
                      4. -1
                        14 July 2026 19: 01
                        Quote: bayard
                        This triple alliance was "potentially possible", but not directly, but at first indirectly

                        In real life, France did everything possible to enter the war with Germany. An alliance with Germany against F&A was possible, but an alliance with F&G was not.
                      5. -1
                        15 July 2026 09: 25
                        That's what I'm saying to you. Both of these alliances were beneficial to us individually, and that's exactly what Wilhelm proposed to Nicholas. He didn't understand, didn't appreciate the possibilities, and missed the chance due to Francophile influence. And who was the closest Francophile back then? That's right – Witte (from the French Rothschild clan, halachically speaking). And yet he and Willie were cousins...
                        We were interested in an alliance with a rising Germany; it could have been much more reliable, including in the event of a confrontation with England. With the French, there was little hope. But France would have been FORCED to seek a place in this (triple) alliance out of fear of Germany. It would have matured and come/begged to join. But eventually. And certainly – in the event of a successful outcome of the REV (under a scenario completely different from what actually happened).
                        But!
                        Such an alliance with Germany (in the Far East) also carried a certain threat. This threat came from England, which in 1903 had entered into a military alliance with Japan, with the condition that if more than one country were at war with Japan, England would enter the war. So, in the Russian Far East, we would have had to fight alone, as would Japan. But support, supplies, logistics, and even intelligence (information exchange) would have been very useful. At the time, the Tsar was offered to guarantee Wilhelm that such an alliance would be concluded immediately after the war with Japan, and in the meantime, to conclude a verbal and secret royal agreement. It was simply that the Russian leadership had already reached the point of inevitability of war with Japan under extremely inconvenient circumstances for itself, in terms of timing and logistical readiness.
                      6. +1
                        15 July 2026 20: 19
                        Quote: bayard
                        We were interested in an alliance with a growing Germany; it could have been much more reliable, including in the event of a confrontation with England.

                        Once again, I consider an alliance with Germany possible, provided that we could somehow quell the Axis powers. But a simultaneous alliance with France is already...
                      7. -1
                        15 July 2026 23: 49
                        Quote: Dart2027
                        But the one at the same time as France is already...

                        So, the alliance with France wasn't critical; in the event of a war with England (and it was possible), that sissy would have jumped ship immediately. But with Germany, the circle of common interests was truly vast and promising. It's just that France could have asked to join this alliance on its own initiative. To avoid war with Germany. Precisely on its own. In my opinion, the probability is 60-70%. And in the event of a decisive victory of the Russian Empire over Japan.
                      8. -1
                        16 July 2026 19: 03
                        Quote: bayard
                        It's just that France itself, on its own initiative... could have asked to join this alliance. To avoid war with Germany. Itself. In my opinion, the probability is 60-70%.

                        She could. But if she asked... Personally, I seriously doubt it.
                      9. -1
                        16 July 2026 21: 18
                        Sometimes they ask not because they really want to or "love it," but because they really need it. In Europe, they had no one else to ally with against Germany. And England wouldn't have saved them. So, even in the worst-case scenario, the odds are 50/50.
                      10. 0
                        16 July 2026 22: 05
                        Quote: bayard
                        In Europe, she had no one else to ally with against Germany.

                        In Europe, it was really only England, but by that time the US had also begun to look overseas. I wonder what their role was at the start of WWI.
                      11. -1
                        16 July 2026 22: 41
                        Fundamental. On the very eve of WWI, the Rothschilds established the Federal Reserve System—a cartel of banks from leading European countries and the United States—as a supranational body not subject to state control. And as soon as the war broke out, all of Europe's capital rushed to the United States for safety. And then there was the economic boom from trade with the warring countries.
                        And yes, England was counting on US assistance at the critical moment, but they would only allow participation in the final phase of the conflict. They would simply have picked apart the assets of the losing sides. So without Russia, and if France had been defeated quickly (and it would have lost very quickly if Germany had fought on only one front), the US would certainly not have entered Europe with its expeditionary forces. And if the subsequent war with England had already begun in earnest... And if Russia had entered the war at this stage, reaching Suez through Turkey (in this case, an ally), and the German army to Gibraltar... We would have sealed off and cut off England from the main sea route to India, where resources came from, as well as from other colonies. Her fleet is strong, but the Mediterranean Sea would have become a trap for it. And the German army would already be entering North Africa through Algeria and Libya. And Russian troops through Kushka and Persia to India. It would have been a systemic defeat. If only the Russian Empire had had a competent monarch like Alexander III.
                        And in that case, the US would likely have joined the victors and enthusiastically set about seizing Britain's legacy—its colonies. Africa, Australia, New Zealand, and other islands. The US navy was almost on par with the British fleet at the time, while the British fleet was concentrated at the mother country, defending the island. That's how they would have devoured it, either by forcing it to capitulate, or by gathering allied forces, defeating its fleet, occupying the island itself, and dragging its monarch before a military tribunal. Maybe they would have exiled him somewhere. It all depended on the mood. And the Rothschilds would have moved to the US.
                        By the way, according to some plans, the Black Sea was supposed to become an internal Russian sea, Western Asia, Syria, Jordan up to Suez... but this is already about the plans for dividing the Ottoman Empire.
    2. +1
      14 July 2026 05: 19
      Dart, War between Germany and France: Not inevitable. There was a real possibility of the former adversaries uniting against England. On the other hand, given that English diplomacy was head and shoulders above everyone else, your assertion is correct: in the end, it outmaneuvered everyone. Moreover, it was Germany that wanted peace with France, and since we're accustomed to considering it the aggressor, it must have wanted to attack it again. In fact, the assassination in Sarajevo was a setup, and since they write that the Serbian "patriot" party—"The Black Hand," I believe (if I'm not mistaken about the name)—was overseen by England, not Russia, it's clear whose setup it was. "Look who benefits."
      1. 0
        14 July 2026 19: 07
        Quote: Alexander Iloev
        Moreover, it was Germany that wanted reconciliation with France

        That's the point - the French wanted to fight the Germans and there was nothing they could do about it.
        Quote: Alexander Iloev
        They write that the Serbian party of "patriots" - "Black Hand", it seems (if I'm not mistaken with the name) - was supervised by England

        Yes, "The Black Hand." As for who commissioned it, I suspect my father knew. Their relationship wasn't very good, and the funeral ceremony was extremely humiliating, which was impossible without the emperor's consent.
  5. +1
    12 July 2026 07: 46
    Quote: belost79
    Feel free to swap Nicholas II for Vladimir Putin)))

    Ivan, it's unlikely that even in a hundred years they'll be singing the same song about the cruiser "Moscow" as they did about the cruiser "Varyag"...
    1. +4
      12 July 2026 08: 03
      It's a moot point, but as history shows, rulers are quite good at brainwashing the people...
      1. +1
        12 July 2026 09: 39
        Quote: faiver
        It's a moot point, but as history shows, rulers are quite good at brainwashing the people...

        As history shows, the government is not at all interested in the opinion of the people.
  6. +8
    12 July 2026 08: 09
    When discussing Port Arthur, two of its most important features are often omitted:

    due to its size, it could not accommodate all the ships of the Pacific squadron;
    It was only possible to pass between the inner and outer roadsteads during high tide, during which 8-9 large ships, that is, only part of a large squadron, managed to pass through - for which Admiral Chikhachev called Port Arthur a trap.

    Well, actually, both of these problems were well known and work was being done to fix them.
    The Western Basin and passage were deepened. Plans were also made to dig a second passage from the Western Basin for destroyers.
    But in general, it would have been possible to avoid the cramped Port Arthur harbor and establish a base in Dalniy or Talienvan. There's plenty of space there, and the passages are easy to block...
    Speaking of Mozampo and Kargodo

    You need to understand the following
    1) Japanese public opinion will be much more outraged than by the occupation of Port Arthur.
    2) We won't be able to build a railway there. until War. You can talk all you want about the Trans-Siberian Railway's low capacity, but even such a railway is better than no railway at all.
    3) Ports in the southern Korean Peninsula are closer not only to maritime communications but also to Japanese bases and ship repair facilities. While in reality they had to base themselves on Eliots and rely on floating workshops, in this alternative, they will have access to well-equipped bases in the mother country.
    4) We won't be able to supply the base during the war. While Ginzburg was able to send several ships with provisions to Port Arthur in real life, they simply won't be able to break through to Korea.
    1. +2
      12 July 2026 10: 28
      We won't be able to supply the base during the war. While Ginzburg was able to send a few ships with provisions to Port Arthur in real life, they simply won't be able to break through to Korea.

      Why won't they break through? I look at the first map; Mozampo is closer to Shanghai than Port Arthur. And you can buy provisions from the locals, that's not the problem. You can't buy hardware or shells from them, that's for sure :(
      1. +4
        12 July 2026 11: 57
        Quote: Not the fighter
        I look at the first map, Mozampo is closer to Shanghai than to Port Arthur.

        The problem isn't the distance, but the Japanese patrols. It's easier to ensure the necessary density close to the bases.
        1. 0
          12 July 2026 12: 05
          Again, let's look at the map. The distance from Shanghai to Mozampo is shorter, and fishing at the entrance to the Korea Bay is easier.
          1. 0
            14 July 2026 23: 15
            Not_a_fighter. I meant supplies from Vladivostok to Mozampo. Vladivostok is connected to the rest of the country by the Trans-Siberian Railway. Shanghai won't provide the Russians with either weapons or coal. In reality, it was delivered by British ships, just like it was to the Japanese. Primorye has the Suchan coal mines. There are various seams there, some good ones. There's no way you can transport weapons through Shanghai. No "patrols" will save you here: the Japanese don't have the manpower for such "patrols." And enemy patrols near their naval base are driven out: no one will tolerate them. This isn't Rozhdestvensky, which didn't have enough cruisers, and dates are among the old ones. There will be no control over the base or control over the routes. It's also important where the Japanese naval base is. The closer it is, the less the ships' resources are wasted, the more they can be used for reconnaissance, etc. Regardless, a Japanese armored cruiser, say, would need 10 times the range of a Russian armored cruiser to drive off a Japanese light cruiser. But the Japanese only have four long-range reconnaissance ships and six cruisers with a speed of about 20 knots, which is marginal: they can only be used for close-range reconnaissance, so that when pursued, they can retreat to the main force. Bottom line: the Japanese lack the strength to organize "patrols" because only four cruisers are suitable for long-range reconnaissance. Convoys will depart from Vladivostok, where the necessary supplies will be delivered by rail. The Japanese base will most likely be in Sasebo: basing at Tsushima will not protect their communications from Russian raids. Unlike the Japanese, the Russians will have faster cruisers, for the simple reason that in 1895, they practically didn't exist: only raiders. This means they must be built, just as in reality. Therefore, the number of Russian high-speed cruisers will be greater than that of the Japanese—as in reality. Under these conditions, there is no "blockade" of "patrols," as Starshiy_Satros writes about, due to the numerical superiority of Russian high-speed vessels. Look at it in reality: against 4 Japanese: Askold, Bogatyr, Varyag, Oleg (should be in the Far East by 1905), 2 Zhemchug, Novik and Boyarin, that is 8 against 4. There is a question whether Bayan should be counted. Further, I wrote that the fleet structure should be different: for example, Alekseev has it like this: 8 battleships, 8 brKr, 8 medium cruisers, 4 small, 4 aviso of 1500. Peresvets will have to be taken into account here, among the armored cruisers, if of course they are built, for the sake of plausibility, I believe that 2 units. I write so that Japan will not have dominance in the cruiser forces, although perhaps their Eyups will be slightly stronger and faster (15,000 tons against 13000 tons). So convoys will be possible. Japan's reconnaissance will be very poor: 4 units, in addition to them, 6 near their squadron, 7 as patrol and other auxiliary services.
          2. 0
            15 July 2026 05: 07
            Not_a_fighter. Yesterday I wrote incoherently.
            You probably wrote about the breakthrough to Shanghai just to make fun of it. Because it's impossible to supply Mozampo/Cargodo from Shanghai.
            If the Russian fleet is in Mozampo and the Japanese in Sasebo, then Vladivostok is the rear for the Russians. Why other places aren't so good for the Japanese is explained in the text.
            To "send out patrols," as the Senior Seaman writes, one must have a preponderance of high-speed cruisers. The Japanese only have four, which achieve high speeds with afterburners, meaning they're only for short periods, and when operating under abnormal conditions, their mechanisms wear out quickly.
            Now about the fleet structure. Japan's fleet is appropriate for the theater: 17 light cruisers. The only problem is that they are mostly slow-moving and many are old. The Russian fleet structure, on the other hand, is appropriate for European seas, meaning the number of cruisers is small. However, in reality, by 1905, there would have been eight fast cruisers. This structure needs to be adjusted to match the Pacific Ocean, meaning the number of light cruisers needs to be increased. But even against eight fast cruisers and four Japanese ones, there won't be any "cloud patrols."
            It's impossible to compare this to the 2nd Pacific Squadron. While the 1st Squadron's structure was unbalanced in theory at the time, in practice it would have been suitable for a theater like the Baltic, the 2nd Pacific Squadron's was even more so: 12 units of the line had 8 cruisers, including 2 slow-moving ships and 1 yacht, the Almaz, but 5 actual cruisers, 2 of which were Svetlana and Aurora, each with a speed of 19 knots, for a total of 3 actual reconnaissance ships. Cruising operations were out of the question, so Togo could afford "patrols" in the narrow Tsushima Strait—he needed to catch a squadron whose location and timing were known. Here, the conditions were entirely different.
            Therefore, there will be no Japanese "patrols" behind Russian fleet lines. One could imagine that a detachment of the 3rd Japanese fast cruiser squadron entered the area, and that's it. But this only makes sense if the Japanese knew exactly when the Russian convoy would arrive, which is not guaranteed. If they don't know, then the Japanese ships can't hang around in the Russian rear for weeks "on preventive patrol"; they'll have to return to base. If the Russians learn that a detachment has passed through their rear, they must attempt to intercept it.
            The senior sailor imagines his opponent as a "dummy in a card game"—one who indicates his presence but does nothing. He plans to patrol near his opponent's base, while the opponent is supposed to sit at his base and do nothing. In reality, under certain circumstances, the balance of forces turned out to be four to three in favor of the Japanese, with their strongest ships destroyed. Here, a different scenario is proposed: a parity of fleets. Ideally, the Russians should have superiority—the reason is explained in the article. Fine, let it be parity. This is a completely different situation, and no one will need to "break through," because with only four real scouts and not being in direct proximity to the Russians, you can't chase them away daily, wasting their resources. Therefore, constant surveillance of the Russian base is simply impossible: at most, two Japanese high-speed cruisers will be near it daily, two on maintenance/rest. Driving away two cruisers is no problem. Once again: they achieve their speed by using afterburners, that is, by intensively using up the engine's resources.
            1. +1
              15 July 2026 09: 15
              Dear Alexander, you obviously really liked the idea of ​​a base in Korea.
              Allow me to disagree with you.
              So you write
              To "send out patrols," as the Senior Sailor writes, one must have a predominance of high-speed cruisers.

              I can't imagine why bother? Japan has over 20 (!) auxiliary cruisers (armed steamships) with decent seaworthiness and endurance. They'll be the ones organizing the patrol—their main task is to promptly report the Russian convoy's departure from Vladik and retreat while maintaining surveillance. After that, they'll deploy the Assamoids to intercept, and that's it. In any case, this approach seems logical to me.
              Therefore, there will be no Japanese “patrols” in the rear of the Russian fleet.

              It will be. Only it won't be the way you see it.
              In reality, the circumstances were such that the balance of forces was 4 to 3 in favor of the Japanese, with their most powerful ships destroyed. Here, a different scenario is proposed: a parity of fleets. Ideally, the Russians should have superiority—the reason is explained in the article.

              All this could have been ensured anyway. Why Sisoya and Co. were sent away for repairs remains a mystery to me to this day. With them, this very equality was ensured.
              You can't run them every day, wasting their resources.

              Auxiliary cruisers will easily survive this.
              To be honest, I also have serious doubts about the possibility of building a railway in Korea. And even if they did build one, it would be very easy to cut it.
              Frankly, and this is my personal opinion, we would have lost the Korean base by the summer if war had happened. Along with the fleet, or part of it. After which, Japan could have fully engaged Vladivostok.
              1. 0
                15 July 2026 20: 42
                Dear Trapper, not much, Port Arthur isn't my idée fixe. If you convince me that Nikolaevsk-on-Amur or Kamchatka is better, I'll accept it. I even considered Sakhalin, though not for long.
                But what about the opinions of the people I listed? I’m obviously a dreamer, but what about them?
                2) Now about the Japanese auxiliary cruisers. They are mobilized steamships, and their speed of 12 knots isn't average, as I wrote earlier, but their maximum. Even a Russian auxiliary cruiser—a former German steamship—if armed, would cut them down like sheep, thanks to its greater speed of 19 knots and its displacement.
                Next, it's not enough to just know you have a tool; you need to show how to use it.
                The only thing I can see is deploying auxiliary cruisers somewhere in a chain and waiting for months for me to conduct a convoy, wherever and whenever – they don't have the autonomy. But that's if I'm passive. I (forgive me, I'm putting myself in the commander's shoes, that's why I say "I") will attack them, and destroy one or two every day. In two weeks, you'll have none left. Mobilize new ones – I repeat. You'll probably say that they'll be covered by Japanese light cruisers – there aren't enough of them to assign one to every auxiliary cruiser, and I've written about their characteristics. So you'll likely lose not only the auxiliary cruisers, but also some of the light cruisers. In general, this is a very passive strategy; it only appears active. A thin network can be cut anywhere.
                The circumstances of one situation can't be automatically transferred to another: the 2nd Pacific Squadron had no base, the order was to break through, and it had only three normal cruisers, two of which were light. If all three had been like Oleg, with nowhere to rush due to the presence of a base, the Japanese auxiliary cruisers would have been smashed to pieces.
                1. 0
                  16 July 2026 09: 17
                  Quote: Alexander Iloev
                  If you convince me that Nikolaevsk-on-Amur or Kamchatka is better, I will accept it.

                  It never even occurred to me.
                  But what about the opinions of the people I listed? I’m obviously a dreamer, but what about them?

                  The people mentioned above are military men. And they think in terms of war, first and foremost. And yes, let's look at the context in which Russian admirals proposed their ideas for the future base. This, if I remember correctly, was around 1897-1898. Now let's look at our navy. Our navy at that time had absolute superiority. Against a couple of Japanese battleships, we already had at least four combat-ready battleships—Nikolai I, Sisoy, Navarin, Poltava—and Petropavlovsk and Sevastopol were approaching. That's why Dubasov even proposed starting a war with Japan; in other words, in modern parlance, he was a pure hawk. And he had every reason to do so, but, I repeat, in the context of the second half of the 1890s.
                  The same can be said about other people's suggestions.
                  Port Arthur, if I remember correctly, is the idea of ​​the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
                  Now, to summarize: the military is eager to start a war itself, invest in a navy, and defeat the enemy. To do this, they truly need such a base in southern Korea. This is justified and reasonable.
                  But only if Russia deliberately escalates the situation and initiates military action first. This is a very, very important point.
                  In reality, Russia chose a different path – a more diplomatic one.
                  Perhaps Dubasov and Co. were right.
                  But then, having said A, we had to also say B. Otherwise, as I already wrote above, for us the base in Korea would become even worse than Port Arthur.
                  And yes, I'm inclined to agree with Senior Seaman Ivan's argument that neither the US nor England, who themselves had their sights set on Korea, would have forgiven us for a base in Korea. They were already fully supportive of Japan, and if Mozampo had been occupied, they would have simply flooded it with money and weapons, just to drive Russia out.
                  Now regarding the curtain of auxiliary forces.
                  deploy auxiliary cruisers somewhere in a chain and wait for months to see where and when I conduct the convoy - they don't have enough autonomy

                  Why do that? There's a wonderful Russian word for "patrol." To do this, you don't have to hang around right next to Vladik (which you can even plant mines on the way out—Russia won't let you lie), set up a screen of patrols, and as soon as activity is noticed, telegraph and retreat, with a cover group deployed. If you're going to play the role of an admiral.
                  (Forgive me, I put myself in the commander’s place, that’s why I write “I”

                  Personally, I'd do exactly that: an Asamoid + 2-3 light cruisers as a covering force. And you don't need to cover every ship. It's a couple of hours' sailing distance away—no Bogatyr can catch up with anyone in that time, but it'll eat up the ships' resources, and there's no proper repairs...
                  Personally, I'm not opposed to establishing a base on my native territory (Nakhodka and Vladik). But to do that, we'd have to abandon the idea of ​​"Yellow Russia."
                  And if they have decided to really get involved in China, and don’t want to start a war themselves, then I personally don’t see any other real alternative besides Port Arthur.
                  And the "admirals"' opinion is, yes. Correct. But, as I already said, only in the reality of complete dominance at sea, which we will be forced to maintain for decades. Or, alternatively, crushing the enemy with a single blow, with minimal bloodshed, and on foreign soil. But we're usually not very good at that.
                  1. 0
                    16 July 2026 10: 01
                    Tapper, regarding the base, I have a clear opinion that P-A is no good, and this is not my personal whim - but based on the quotes that are in the article.
                    And I checked other possible places, including some that seemed improbable or stupid at first glance.
                    2) Regarding what happened next, you're right that the military thought so, and they had superiority in 1897. Who better to judge this than the military? And what prevented them from extending their superiority until 1904? The article quotes from the channel "naval-manual": "If superiority in force were considered necessary, then no sacrifice would be considered unnecessary."

                    Now, regarding mine laying: the ocean is big, where will you lay mines? Are there roads there? All over the ocean?
                    Or maybe at the entrance to the Russian base?
                    There are minesweepers for that. We can discuss why the Makarov was blown up, but it wasn't inevitable, just like the explosion of the two Japanese battleships.
                    And this game can be played by two players. Incidentally, the enemy doesn't have two specialized mine-laying ships.

                    Now about the Asamoids. I understand that you and your colleague want to deploy support vessels almost daily. But Asamoids can't be deployed daily, because then their propulsion systems will fail by the time the decisive battle begins. They can, of course, be used for cruising operations, but sporadically, not daily. And this game (mines) requires two players.

                    I'd like to draw your attention to Noah's initial condition: "the Russian fleet is not inferior to the Japanese." Even in terms of finances, if you don't spend money on deepening the Pacific, you'll have another battleship. But I would have chosen the extra cruisers, since they were the ones cut in the program, and the fleet structure wasn't appropriate for the Pacific Ocean. I got this from the "naval-manual" channel, so again, "nothing personal" here.

                    The issue wasn't so much the enemy mines, but the fact that the fleet's structure was flawed. With a proper structure, mine losses are less likely.
                    Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich wrote about the improper structure of the navy; I'll quote from memory: "Building only battleships is nonsense [his version is stronger, but I don't remember exactly, the meaning is 'idiocy'] – it's like an army without cavalry, that is, without eyes." The "naval-manual" has two articles devoted to the structure.
                    So, with a normal structure, battleships will be protected, including from mine laying.
                    1. +1
                      16 July 2026 10: 20
                      Tapper, that is, you and I actually agree on one thing:
                      "Besides the battleships, there must be many small ships to protect them from the danger of mines."
                      This is where “naval-manal” sees the main vulnerable spot of the Russian fleet.
                      But still, it would be preferable for these to be ships built specifically for this purpose, rather than mobilized steamships.
                      1. +1
                        19 July 2026 14: 39
                        Trapper, I can refrain from adding to the answer: let's say, the scheme you proposed, where Asamoid protects Japanese auxiliary cruisers so that they lay mines.
                        1) Laying mines in international waters is just as risky for Japan as it is for Russia. Therefore, the mines will be laid near the Russian base.
                        2) The Russians must see this caravan approaching their base—after all, according to military theory, long-range patrols should be posted near the base. Therefore, some forces must be dispatched to intercept it.
                        3) Why this was not the case in Port Arthur: the critical shortage of Russian cruisers, which was initially included in the fleet’s composition, as well as the losses in them (Varyag, Boyarin).
                        4) The Asamoid will travel at the speed of auxiliary cruisers, meaning no more than 12 knots, and likely less. This weakens it in combat, as even battleships are becoming faster.
                        5) Therefore, the Asamoid, at best, should remove the auxiliary cruisers' crews and leave, but this is contrary to the samurai code of honor. The second option is to die in an unequal battle.
                        6) Therefore, where combat is possible (on patrols - only near your base), the presence of auxiliary cruisers is not a strength, but a WEAKNESS: they will not help in any way in combat,
                        but they need to be protected, which means they will reduce the speed of combat ships.
                        7) Now I want to talk about the inertia of thinking. I quoted V.K. Alexander Mikhailovich's 1895 statement that "a fleet without a large number of cruisers is an army without cavalry, or without eyes" on an amateur blog. Instead of listening to the opinion that corresponded to the military theory of the time (two cruisers per battleship, or better yet, three – although only the fleets of England and Japan matched the latter (three units)), he starts laughing at the stupid captain of the first rank and asking, "How would these cruisers fare in battle?" But the point is that they have about 10 purposes, among which combat, if any, is in the last place. (The German Gazelle doesn't even have one). I say this because it's impossible to understand how combat might proceed based on modern concepts. This can be understood from Kolchak’s report “What kind of fleet does Russia need” – it is available online, in M.A. Petrov’s articles, and in “naval - manual”.
        2. +1
          14 July 2026 05: 54
          Senior Seaman, regarding supplies, you write, "It's a matter of Japanese patrols." You didn't read carefully. Will you always have them at sea, Japanese patrols? And the Russians certainly won't stop them from patrolling in their rear. While waiting for the 2nd Pacific Squadron, the Japanese knew it was coming, roughly where it was going, and when it was coming (and I almost missed it). Here, however, they know none of that. Who will be on these patrols? Japanese auxiliary cruisers? But they have an average speed of 12 knots, and the Russian cruisers will sink them one by one. Perhaps they will be Japanese light cruisers? How many are there, and how many of them can make 20 knots? Are you suggesting that Japan be left without cruisers? I don't mind. It's just to defend my long-held belief that Port Arthur is the best port in the world. I don't mind, but what about the opinions of the people I mentioned?
          1. +2
            14 July 2026 07: 57
            Quote: Alexander Iloev
            You read inattentively.

            I'm afraid you didn't write carefully.
            Quote: Alexander Iloev

            Will you always have Japanese patrols at sea?

            I have no reason to suspect the Japanese of stupidity. So yes.
            Quote: Alexander Iloev
            While waiting for the 2nd Pacific Squadron, the Japanese knew it was coming, roughly where it was going, and when it was coming (and even then, they almost missed it). Here, however, they know none of that.

            The Japanese don't know where the Russian base is? How original!
            Quote: Alexander Iloev
            Who will be on these patrols? Japanese auxiliary cruisers?

            Compare the numbers of Japanese and Russian cruisers and stop messing with my head.
            Quote: Alexander Iloev
            they will be sunk one by one by Russian cruisers

            And how much did they sink near Port Arthur or in Tsushima?
            What makes you think it will be any different off the coast of Korea?
            Japanese cruisers didn't sail alone. A detachment of superior forces would always be nearby, behind a screen of auxiliary ships. And the proximity of our own bases would help keep them in good order. However, our repair capabilities, due to the lack of railways, will likely be lower than in reality.
            Quote: Alexander Iloev
            Just to defend my long-standing point of view that Port Arthur the best port in the world.

            Where did I write that? Don't attribute your fantasies to me only to then refute them with flying colors. There are plenty of those here without you.
            Quote: Alexander Iloev
            What should we do with the opinions of the people I listed?

            No way. Their arguments were heard by their contemporaries and found to be untenable. I don't consider myself smarter than my ancestors.
            Quote: Alexander Iloev
            I'm not against

            Quote: Alexander Iloev
            I'm not against

            Thank you, dear father! hi
            1. 0
              14 July 2026 12: 37
              Senior Seaman, please. Over the past seven years, I've had the opportunity to fact-check what I write, and I typically write from other people's perspectives—either those who took part, those who predicted how this war would unfold, or historians. So, I'm doing well with my attention span. On the other hand, to convince someone, they shouldn't have a firm desire to "defy anything," and it's not a matter of propositions—I emphasize, any proposition—but of that desire.
            2. 0
              14 July 2026 17: 49
              Senior Seaman, as I understand it, knowing the location of the Russian base, you want to maintain complete control over it. The basic data: the fleets are equal. So, the Russian fleet near its base is objectively stronger than the Japanese fleet near its base. The Japanese fleet near its base is objectively stronger than the Russian fleet. If you decide to engage in a decisive battle near the enemy base, then even if the damage is equal, your ship won't reach the shipyard, and the enemy will escape. Therefore, a decisive battle near the base of an equally powerful enemy is not the best solution.
              Next. How many cruisers do you have? 17. How many not only fast but also powerful ones? Only 4. There are about 6 more, 20- and 19,5-knot, but not powerful. They'll be caught and sunk if the enemy has 23-knot cruisers. The rest are neither powerful nor fast. Under these conditions, it's impossible to talk about controlling the base of an enemy of equal strength. Auxiliary ships have been mentioned; there are plenty of them, but they only have a speed of 12 knots and lack serious armament. Good.
              Let's say your cruisers (by chance) happen to be exactly where they need to be, and they've seen exactly what they need to see. They still need to relay the information they've received to their fleet, which needs to be ready to deploy, deploy on time, and arrive in time. Will the Russians expect this? I doubt it. They won't. Imagine how they'll operate before you speculate.
              1. 0
                14 July 2026 20: 18
                Senior Seaman, continuing my answer about Japanese control of the Russian base. So, you have 17 cruisers, seven of which, due to their low speed, cannot be sent on reconnaissance missions. The remaining 10 should be given rest, not driven daily. Sending armored cruisers on daily reconnaissance missions is a waste of their resources. That's not what they're designed for.
                In fact, at Alternative History, I gave lengthy excerpts from Kolchak's 1907 report "What Kind of Navy Does Russia Need?" It outlined the fleet's composition and the objectives of its various types of vessels. You didn't even read them back then, because you already knew everything. And if we hadn't been squabbling, I would have given the title to M.A. Petrov's article on naval battles and the paths to victory.
                1. +2
                  15 July 2026 07: 58
                  Damn, I almost put it all in one comment to avoid scattering it all around, but no...
                  Quote: Alexander Iloev
                  So, you have 17 cruisers, 7 of which cannot be sent on reconnaissance due to their low speed.

                  It's a pity that the Japanese didn't know about this and calmly sent the same Izumi and its contemporaries on reconnaissance missions. request
                  Quote: Alexander Iloev
                  Sending armored cruisers on daily reconnaissance missions is a waste of their resources.

                  See above.
                  Resources must be conserved, of course. But you're missing the point that the Japanese's repair capabilities near their shores are far greater than what they actually had on the Elliotts. Meanwhile, our cruisers don't have an infinite resource either, so their capabilities will be, at best, the same as in Port Arthur, if not worse.
                  Remember what happened to the Novik CMU?
                  Quote: Alexander Iloev
                  What if we hadn't fought?

                  If there was no way to chat about my favorite topic, why would I come here? wink
    2. +1
      12 July 2026 12: 21
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      But in general, it would have been possible not to bother with the cramped harbor of Port Arthur, but to set up a base in Dalniy or Talienvan.

      Fact. Especially since the fleet's primary mission was to defend Dalny. P-A had an old Chinese naval base, which is probably why they latched onto it. It could have continued to be used as a base for light forces, while the main forces were stationed in Dalny.
      1. +1
        12 July 2026 21: 36
        Quote: Saxahorse
        It would have been possible to continue using it as a base for light forces and station the main forces in the Far East.

        This is exactly what they proposed to do, it would have been the best solution, but there was a ban from above - "Dalny is a commercial port and the military there will only interfere with trade." Moreover, when they started talking about it on the very eve of the war, it was also a risky undertaking, because Dalny was completely undefended both from the sea (not a single coastal battery) and from the land (there were no fortifications or even a garrison). Such decisions had to be made in advance. Yes, at least the artillery could have been removed from the "Sisoy" and "Navarin" before their departure for Kronstadt. They were scheduled for repairs and modernization anyway, and at the same time they would have rearmed. And Dalny would have acquired coastal artillery. 8 x 12 "and 14 x 6" is still a considerable force for coastal defense. And the remaining time for this would have been quite enough.
        But the main problem wasn't Arthur itself as a base, but that the fleet wasn't built on schedule. Therefore, both the 1st Squadron and Arthur and Dalny themselves were doomed. They lacked the forces to successfully resist either on land or at sea.
        Therefore, Kuropatkin proposed in early 1903, given the squadron's insufficient strength, to withdraw it in full force to Kronstadt and return with the 2nd Squadron once it was ready. He was prepared to wage war on land with his small but concentrated forces until the construction of the KBM was completed and sufficient forces had accumulated for a decisive offensive. By all accounts, this was the middle to second half of 1905. By this time, the Pacific Fleet, consisting of two or even three squadrons, should have arrived – by the time Dalny and Artur were liberated by the ground army. Such a scenario was entirely viable and would have spared our fleet all those defeats. By leaving Artur before the war began and returning with guaranteed superior forces to achieve victory and establish naval supremacy, it would still have been possible to save the fleet from defeat and lead it to victory. But the ground army in Manchuria would have had a hard time – the Japanese army's strength at the start of the Russian Yamal-Nenets Autonomous Area War was approximately three times greater than Kuropatkin's. However, it was already difficult.
        1. +3
          13 July 2026 15: 53
          Quote: bayard
          They could have at least removed the artillery from the Sisoes and Navarin before they left for Kronstadt. They were scheduled for repairs and modernization anyway, and they would have been rearmed at the same time. And Dalniy would have acquired coastal artillery. 8 x 12" and 14 x 6" are still a considerable force for coastal defense.

          Well, 6" is understandable; they're even better off on the shore than on deck—their arcs will be intact. But what will the army do with the naval 12" turrets? The best the army has is Durlacher mounts for 10" Brink. They're still ten years away from the "Zhuravli"...
          1. -3
            13 July 2026 16: 55
            Why remove 12" guns from battleships along with their turrets?
            I removed the cover, lifted the guns out with a crane, and removed their mounts piece by piece. I mounted them at a coastal position, anchoring them in reinforced concrete—and there you have it, coastal artillery.
            I remember reading a story about those very same 10" barrels from Electric Cliff. These five barrels were sent as replacements for the Peresvet guns in case of breakage, damage, or critical wear of the rifling. And then they decided to adapt them for coastal artillery and ordered mounts for them. This is how the 10" Electric Cliff battery appeared. And in this case, even the mounts from the turrets can be dismantled. And leave the empty turrets on the battleships - let them go home since they were recalled. There they are for repairs anyway, and new artillery will be installed there. If there are any problems with the mounts from the turret mounts with their installation on the creature - just order mounts for them and deliver them by sea. After all, in principle, there was still enough time (when the Sisoya and Navarin were recalled). I did not go into this issue purely technically, but using the 10" as an example, which is also a 45-caliber (i.e. their mount is designed for almost the same load as the 12" 40-caliber Sisoya or 35-caliber Navarin). In any case, such a possibility was also there. And if such a coastal battery/batteries appeared at Dalniy - here you have a naval base convenient for war for the Pacific Fleet, and what's more, with a normal dock for repairs.
            If you know what kind of machine tools were in the turrets of these battleships and how realistic it would be to dismantle them for coastal batteries, it would be interesting to hear/read.
            And by the way, the naval gunners could have been left to man the coastal batteries. Because there's no other way—where would such artillerymen come from?

            Although this is one possible option. The most reliable one is to leave these two battleships in Artur and ignore Witte's hysterics (it was his initiative). As a result, by the start of the Russian Yamal-Nenets War, we would have had 10 battleships in Artur: the Tsarevich, the Retvizan, three Poltavts, the Sisoes and Navarin, two Peresvets, and the Bayan. Considering that the Japanese had to keep four of their best armored cruisers against the Vladivostok detachment, then, including the Garibaldians, Togo would also have only 10 ships against Artur. Moreover, we have 9 battleships (if we count the Peresvets as such), while Togo only has 6. And it would have been quite possible to fight and even actively operate the fleet. And wait for the arrival of the 2nd squadron, after which the superiority of the Pacific Fleet of the Russian Empire would have become simply overwhelming. It is quite possible that the Japanese would have simply abandoned the war, or limited themselves to a landing in Korea, which we could really only interfere with with great difficulty. And then everything would have been limited to just the war in Korea.
            And all that was needed was to leave two old battleships in Arthur to maintain parity between the main forces of the fleet and the Japanese.
            1. +2
              14 July 2026 10: 57
              Quote: bayard
              I removed the cover, lifted the guns out with a crane, and removed their mounts piece by piece. I mounted them at a coastal position, anchoring them in reinforced concrete—and there you have it, coastal artillery.

              How will we carry out horizontal guidance?
              To obtain a fully functional anti-tank weapon, rather than a concrete-encased mount, the turret and rollers will have to be dismantled and a full-fledged base with a concrete ring built. Oh, and we'll also have to somehow arrange for the feed and loading system.
              Here are the 12" Sisoya guns in the rear turret, which was exposed after the explosion:

              Quote: bayard
              I remember reading a story about those very same 10" barrels from Electric Cliff. These five barrels were sent as replacements for the Peresvet guns in case of breakage, damage, or critical wear of the rifling. And then they decided to adapt them for coastal artillery and ordered mounts for them.

              So there was no need to invent coastal machines for 10" - they already existed both in drawings and in hardware.
              1. -1
                14 July 2026 13: 42
                No, it was definitely not worth removing the turret from the battleships and installing it; they certainly wouldn’t have made it on time. We are talking about installing individual guns on rotating mounts, approximately like the 10" El. Utes. But here I am not even insisting, but rather offering it as an option for consideration. The optimal solution would have been to simply leave these battleships in Arthur, and they would have ensured approximate parity of forces with the Japanese fleet. The proposal was a reaction to the fact of their recall to Kronstadt. Dalny was a more convenient base for the fleet, but strengthening it for these purposes had to be done first and foremost. Removing the guns of ships recalled from the Far East is one of the sources for obtaining coastal artillery, and if they had taken care of this in a timely manner, then the mounts for them would have had time to be made and sent by sea. But paradoxically, they did not think about the defense of Dalny at all. Or rather, the sailors were thinking about it, but they were not allowed there and were not given money. With Witte on the throne, war was guaranteed in advance. lost, everything possible and even impossible was done for this.
            2. +1
              14 July 2026 14: 44
              Quote: bayard
              I remember reading a story about those same 10" barrels from Electric Cliff. These five barrels were sent as replacements for the Peresvet guns in case of breakage, damage, or critical wear of the rifling.

              Don't talk nonsense! Naval and coastal 10" guns had different designs and were in no way interchangeable!
              1. -3
                14 July 2026 16: 11
                Calm down, Vanya, read more carefully and study the material. The gun barrels initially arrived in Arthur as replacements for the Peresvets, and only later were specially made traversing mounts sent for them to set up a coastal battery. I wrote about replacement barrels, not guns removed from ships. Similar measures could have been taken with other guns, if time and technical capabilities had allowed. Dalny could have been fortified and turned into a naval base, if not for Witte's prohibition ("it's a commercial port, the military would only get in the way") and his refusal to allocate funds for it.
                The same thing happened with the dredges. Two more dredges were needed to deepen at least the main fairway, but no money was allocated for that either.
                1. 0
                  14 July 2026 17: 56
                  Quote: bayard
                  The gun barrels arrived in Arthur initially as replacements for the Peresvets.

                  Oh, these tales, oh, these storytellers.
                  Your problem is not even that you live in captivity of fantasies, but that you impose them on others.))
                  Quote: bayard
                  It would have been possible to do the same with other weapons if time and technical capabilities allowed

                  Coastal shafts had trunnions, while naval shafts did not. Therefore, they were not interchangeable.
                  Quote: bayard
                  if it weren't for Witte's ban

                  I would ask for confirmation that these were indeed naval guns, but I don’t want to run into another dose of nonsense about Witte and Sharapov.
                2. 0
                  15 July 2026 08: 07
                  Quote: bayard
                  The gun barrels arrived in Arthur initially as replacements for the Peresvets, and then specially made rotary machines were sent for them to organize a coastal battery.

                  I won't tell you now exactly how many naval guns were manufactured at the Obukhov plant before the Russian Navy, and that there simply weren't five spare guns of this type.
                  Just look at the famous photo of the Electric Cliff battery.
                  Do you see the trunnion on the body of the nearest gun?
                  This is a land weapon, not a naval one.
                  1. -2
                    15 July 2026 09: 07
                    I read about the five interchangeable guns for the Peresvets in the history of the Electric Cliff battery. I see a trunnion, but as far as I understand, it's not on the body of the interchangeable barrel, but on the "casing" (I don't know what that part of the barrel is called). The casing doesn't change when the barrel is changed. I can't remember the source now, but I read about it a long time ago. You yourself, sailor, should look into the history of these guns. The barrels were already in Artur when the mounts for them were ordered from Obukhovsky. And specifically for a coastal battery.
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    This is a land weapon, not a naval one.

                    And so it became that way. Or rather, the barrels (the barrels, Ochenkov, the replacement barrels, not the guns) became an integral part of the coastal battery's guns. Study the topic, the history of the creation and operation of these guns; it's all there. And stop being rude on the forum; you've already become quite famous among alternative enthusiasts... lol I read it, I came across it... That's where the heresy was splashing with an unbridled imagination. Jumped to another site and now you're slapping on a "critic"?
                    Less for rudeness.
                    1. +1
                      15 July 2026 11: 18
                      Quote: bayard
                      The barrels were already in Artur when the mounts for them were ordered from Obukhovsky. And specifically for the coastal battery.

                      Only the Obukhov plant was engaged in mass production of 10"/45 coastal guns. By August 25, 1901, one 10"/45 gun was being tested at the Main Artillery Plant, one was being fitted to a gun carriage at the Putilov Plant, and two more were loaded onto the steamship "Korea," bound for Port Arthur.

                      By the beginning of the war, five 10"/45 guns out of the 10 required by the regulations were installed at the Electric Cliff battery in Port Arthur.
                      1. -2
                        15 July 2026 13: 22
                        I don't remember the source; it's been at least 5-6 years. But the battery's history was described in detail there. However, there's so much nonsense on the internet these days, which this same sailor Ochenkov spawned. Perhaps this swindler even interfered with Wikipedia; anyone can edit it, after all. Just his "essay" on the history of the Black Sea battleships like the "Prince Potemkin" was worth something. And he created a photoshopped image that looked just like a real photograph. He also made up a story about how before WWI the 6" part was changed to 8", and the other part was left intact. lol (8 + 8), and give us the whole story of their “combat path”, running after the “Goeben” and other depictions, photographs laughing It's honestly true. Maybe it was from the same scammer/imitator that time. Or maybe it was from him himself. He's spun a lot of this nonsense—he admitted it himself. But apparently they even kicked him off the alternative site for this behavior, so he's stuck around here, but now he's posing as a "critic."
                        I remember once checking Wikipedia for information on British battleships of that period, and people like Ochenkov (or himself? He could have) had posted a whole series about some "intermediate series" of British battleships with 8-inch auxiliary guns. And they went on and on, so thoroughly and plausibly, "but they were all written off on the eve of WWI because it was difficult to fire the guns, and the gunners confused the bursts of the main guns with those of the 8-inch guns." I treated it as reference data, since that's how it was presented, along with a brief history of the ships. And then, once, a comment mentioned "there were also some like that, though they didn't last long and were considered failures," and this swindler-fabricator started being rude and boastful out of nowhere. I went to Wikipedia, and this heresy was gone—it'd been deleted. But I've been reading fakes from the same guy (or himself, since that's what he used to do) Ochenkov for several days now. And he himself admitted to the "strange modernization of the Potemkinites," and laughed again.
                        My search engine isn't working on Chrome right now, and ads are constantly popping up on other devices, which I don't use, so it's hard to search for anything like before. And the power goes out periodically (in Donetsk), when you could research and double-check any question or scam from a crook. A forum isn't a publication for scientific papers or articles; it's a place for exchanging opinions and information. This includes discussing topics from a long-gone and ultimately unsuccessful war. And the alternative-minded Ochenkov was always grazing on this topic, and now he's only here for sR@4@ and antics. Either that's just how it is, or they're paying extra for it.
                        The possibility of removing guns from ships recalled from Arthur was mentioned only in passing, as if to say, "Well, at least they'd leave some usefulness." Without delving into the technical possibilities. Besides, in Vladivostok, the old guns from the cruisers (during their rearmament) were somehow adapted for coastal defense. And already during the war. So it worked.
                        But Ochenkov is repulsed by Sharapov, whose book was offered to him for review, by the source of that time, by the one who drafted all those development programs for the Russian Empire back then, by the ally and confidant of Alexander III. But no, the alternative historian and falsifier Ochenkov doesn't need the truth of events and their true causes; he needs sR@4.
                        Just keep that in mind when this sailor pops up in the comments. hi
                      2. +1
                        15 July 2026 18: 54
                        Oh, are you having another flare-up?
                        fool
                    2. +1
                      15 July 2026 18: 52
                      Quote: bayard
                      I see the trunnion, but as far as I understand it is not on the body of the replaceable barrel.

                      You're misunderstanding. This trick won't work.
                      Quote: bayard
                      I don't remember the source now, I read it a long time ago.

                      Who would have doubted it)))
                      In general, the source of this is most likely... English Wiki.
                      But there's a problem. It says there that only 30 of them were produced before the Russian Nuclear War.
                      27 were mounted on ships (12 on Peresvet, 11 on BBO, and 4 on the Rostislav. A total of 27). That leaves three, and at least one was completely destroyed at the firing range. But there were likely more, as this gun had three models, weighing 22.5, 24, and 27 tons.
                      Quote: bayard
                      And so it became like this, or rather the barrels (barrels, Ochenkov, replaceable barrels, not guns)

                      Do not hurt the crap, it hurts!
                      Quote: bayard
                      Study the topic, the history of the creation and operation of these weapons, everything is there

                      Take your own advice.
                      Quote: bayard
                      You've already become so famous among alternative artists...

                      I have a little sin. I don't like insane people.
                      And you've really gotten on my nerves. So I don't want to argue with you anymore. But I think it's necessary and right to point out the nonsense you regularly spew.
                      You are the last person on this site whose approval I need.
                      I communicate normally with normal people.
                      1. -2
                        15 July 2026 21: 21
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        In general, the source of this is most likely... English Wiki.

                        No, it was an article or even an essay about the history of the Electric Cliff battery, including details of the guns' operation.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        I have a little sin.

                        I'm sure I'm not alone. Especially when it comes to diverting the conversation from the main topic. The discussion was about the possibility of using naval artillery from ships recalled from Arthur to strengthen coastal defenses. As a potential option. And generally as a passing topic. How to exhaustively solve a problem. But a sailor intervened and diverted the conversation. And in a useless direction.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        You are the last person on this site whose approval I need.

                        Ochenkov, alternative sailor, with your track record of fabrications and sick fantasies on your former website? After everything you scribbled there? And disgraced yourself? After all your creativity? Especially when such heresy from you and your alternative accomplices has started spreading across the internet and Wikipedia (which anyone can edit). I've come across it. True, they were deleted fairly quickly, but I remember your crafts well. And the reaction of someone who's taken a dump under the door and is waiting for someone to step on it will be taken in by your creativity. Remember your scribble about the history of the rearmament of the Black Sea "Potemkin" ships? And how you vividly described... campaigns and battles. lol And who was it that spread this and similar nonsense across various resources and Wikipedias? And he admitted it, without any shame.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        I also communicate normally.

                        Sailor, were you spanked as a child?
                      2. 0
                        16 July 2026 07: 52
                        Quote: bayard
                        No, it was an article or even an essay about the history of the Electric Cliff battery, including details of the guns' operation.

                        But no one else saw her?
                        Quote: bayard
                        And they caused a scandal?

                        Only in your fantasies.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Especially to divert the conversation away from the main topic

                        Said the man who is always printing irrelevant foot-wraps, both in and out of place...
                        Quote: bayard
                        Do you remember your scribble with the history of the rearmament of the Black Sea "Potemkin" ships?

                        Unlike you, I can't remember things that never happened.
                        You've got it all mixed up again. request
                        Quote: bayard
                        And he admitted it and wasn't ashamed.

                        A psychiatrist I know advised me to agree with people who are mentally incompetent in everything I do when talking to them.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Sailor, were you spanked as a child?

                        Looking for a partner for sexual play? wassat
                        I pass right away! stop
                      3. -2
                        16 July 2026 15: 35
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        I can't remember what didn't happen))))

                        Don't get out of it, Ochenkov.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Looking for a partner for sexual play?

                        I'm talking about timely educational procedures.
                        However, the old pervert in you woke up immediately.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        A psychiatrist I know advised me
                    3. +1
                      18 July 2026 15: 02
                      Quote: bayard
                      I read about 5 replacement guns for the "Peresvetites" in the history of the Electric Cliff battery.

                      Well, where did you get this from???
                      1. The "Peresvetites" have different weapons...
                      2. For the 8 "different" guns of the Peresvet, they sent 5 spare ones, but how many spare 12" guns were sent to the other five battleships??? - not a single one, and not even from the Sisoy leaving for the Baltic, where is the logic???
                      3. Why, after one of Peresvet's guns was damaged, wasn't the gun from Electric Cliff mounted on it? It was clearly more necessary at the time.
                      4. The fleet's spare guns would have been placed under the control of the Port Arthur commander... But he would never have given them over to the land forces...
                      5. Your internet connection should be acting up somewhere around here...
                      6. Before accusing someone of rudeness, look in the mirror...
                      1. +1
                        18 July 2026 16: 58
                        I won't even ask whose downsides they are, it's all pretty obvious, bayard, are these your only arguments???
                      2. +2
                        18 July 2026 23: 07
                        Quote: Ragnar
                        bayard, are these your only arguments???

                        The guy lives in a fantasy world...
                  2. +3
                    15 July 2026 11: 09
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    Just look at the famous photo of the Electric Cliff battery.
                    Do you see the trunnion on the body of the nearest gun?

                    There is also a close-up photo of one of the guns of battery No. 15:
            3. +1
              18 July 2026 14: 21
              Quote: bayard
              And if such a coastal battery/batteries appeared near Dalniy, then you would have a naval base for the Pacific Fleet that would be convenient for war, and, what's more, with a normal dock for repairs.

              Alas and alack... In Dalny there was only one functioning dock, measuring 115 x 15 meters, meaning it could accommodate a maximum of a second-rank cruiser... Another dock, measuring 131 x 27,4 meters, was being built, but it was not ready by the end of 1903... Its subsequent fate is unknown to me...
            4. 0
              18 July 2026 14: 35
              Quote: bayard
              Considering that the Japanese had to keep 4 of their best armored cruisers against the Vladivostok detachment, then together with the "Garibaldi" Togo also had only 10 ships against Arthur.

              Nothing of the sort... Togo detached Kamimura for action against the Vladivostok detachment only after the destruction of the Petropavlovsk and the damage to the Pobeda left two serviceable battleships in Artur, the crippled Sevastopol and Bayan...
          2. 0
            13 July 2026 17: 27
            Quote: Alexey RA
            No, well 6" is understandable, they are even better off on the shore than on the decks - the arches will be intact.

            On these ships, they're mounted on mounts with a side pin. So, yes, they can be removed, but putting them in a shore position is a real pain. request
            1. +2
              14 July 2026 05: 41
              Senior Seaman, by the way, you didn't read carefully. "The problem was being solved" – you see how perfectly it was solved by 1904. But no, let's argue anyway.
              1. +2
                14 July 2026 08: 12
                Quote: Alexander Iloev
                "The problem was being solved" - You see how beautifully it was solved by 1904.

                It's not me who has a problem with attentiveness, but you who have a problem with understanding.
                "Was decided" and "was decided" are by no means synonyms.
                The fact that you don't know that the passage's depth has been increased (by more than 3 feet, if I remember correctly), that the Western Basin has been dug, and that work has begun on a new passage for destroyers, only testifies to a poor grasp of the material.
                Moreover, I directly wrote that all these problems could have been avoided by setting up a base in Dalniy or Talienvan, but some people were “inattentive”
                How will this help intercept the Japanese landing in southern Korea?

                Well, the base in Kargodo won't really help here. request
                1. 0
                  14 July 2026 12: 41
                  Senior Seaman, you could say, "I fixed your TV well, replaced the capacitor, but I ran out of time." It's not the interim goals that matter, but the overall result.
                  1. 0
                    14 July 2026 14: 47
                    Quote: Alexander Iloev
                    Senior sailor, that is, you could say, “I fixed your TV well, replaced the capacitor, but I ran out of time.”

                    False analogy.
                    I rather suggested buying a new part, but you were stingy with the money. As a result, you were left without money and without a TV, but someone else is to blame.
            2. +1
              14 July 2026 10: 40
              Quote: Senior Sailor
              It is on these ships that they are on machines with a side pin.

              Thanks for the tip. I'd somehow forgotten about the peculiarities of early EBR machines.
        2. 0
          18 July 2026 13: 51
          Quote: bayard
          This is exactly what they proposed to do, it would have been the best solution, but there was a prohibition from above: “Dalniy is a trading port and the military there will only interfere with trade.”

          Who prevented us from handing over Talienwan for use by the fleet???
          1. +2
            18 July 2026 23: 09
            Quote: Ragnar
            Who prevented us from handing over Talienwan for use by the fleet???

            Bayard's sick fantasy
      2. 0
        14 July 2026 04: 56
        Bayard, there's a quote in the article that Port Arthur (and therefore Dalny) isn't needed to defend the East Siberian Railway. And the port itself is worthless without the road. Did you notice that phrase? Then why are you writing something that contradicts it? After all, that was the conclusion of those years.
        1. -1
          14 July 2026 14: 15
          The problem with Arthur (and Dalny) began with the fact that they were simply leased along with the entire Kwantung. This fact created the problem - Arthur and his squadron were not supposed to defend Russian possessions in Manchuria, but they themselves became that suitcase without a handle, in the event of insufficient squadron strength and a small number of Russian troops in the theater of operations. Witte's motivation was: "We leased the peninsula for a trading port and a naval base, we need it for trade, and let the military do whatever they want to do with its protection. But I won't give the money." That was his logic - they need trade, and the military will survive. In other words, he created a pretext for war with this lease, and then did everything possible to prepare Russia for it. Look at it in this light. He insisted that Dalny was important, Arthur was secondary, and they should defend it as best they could. So they defended it. And he built Dalny for the Japanese.
          Then everything was classic - the Japanese attacked our fleet piecemeal, because thanks to the efforts of the same Witte, the fleet was not built on schedule. The only chance to save the fleet from defeat was to recall the squadron to Kronstadt and wait there for the second squadron to be ready. Artur and Dalny were temporarily abandoned, guns and supplies were removed, the army was reinforced with a garrison and the fight on land was gaining time. By mid-1905, KBM was completed, supplies and communications were established, the army could advance and drive the Japanese out of Manchuria and Korea. In the second half of 1905, the fleet returned to the Far East in full force and seized control of the sea, Artur and Dalny returned, Korea was liberated and became a Russian protectorate. Such were Kuropatkin's proposals in the spring of 1903 as a plan for the future war. He was refused and told "fight as it is." That's how they fought.
          Quote: Alexander Iloev
          The article contains a quote that Port Arthur (and therefore Dalny) is not needed to defend the East Siberian Highway

          The military didn't need them; they had other locations in mind for a future naval base. But Witte had already made his choice and made his decision – he needed Dalny "for trade." And for that, they had already paid just 50 million rubles in gold as rent for 50 years. So there was no turning back from Kwantung, and the military was simply presented with a fait accompli.
          1. +1
            18 July 2026 15: 34
            Quote: bayard
            The only chance to save the fleet from defeat was to recall the squadron to Kronstadt and wait there for the second squadron to be ready. Artur and Dalniy were temporarily abandoned, guns and supplies were removed, the army was reinforced with a garrison, and the battle on land was fought to buy time.

            Oh, I told you... And then fight them back... And what would the Russian fleet find there??? Blown up docks... Destroyed workshops with a complete lack of machine tools... zero coal reserves... Zero material reserves... Blown up batteries... Zero food... How do you plan to base yourself at a port like that???
      3. 0
        14 July 2026 06: 03
        Saxahorse, okay, they moved the port to Dalny. How will that help intercept the Japanese landing in southern Korea? After all, in Corbett's quote about Vladivostok, the main point is its distance from the scene. So why does this point apply to Vladivostok but not to Dalny? What's the logic?
        Also, reread Vasiliev's cited points—they all apply to Dalny as well. Isn't this just inertia?
        1. +2
          14 July 2026 09: 04
          Quote: Alexander Iloev
          Saxahorse, okay, they moved the port to Dalniy. How will that help intercept the Japanese landing in southern Korea?

          The landing in southern Korea and from Mozapo couldn't be intercepted. There's a narrow strait there, easily crossed overnight and landed. But from there to Dalny it's 500 kilometers of mountain trails. At that time, not only was there no railway there, but even the regular roads were poor. Supplying a large army over the mountains by donkey was a poor strategy. By sea, however, was a different matter. Landing directly on the Kwantung Peninsula solved the Japanese supply problems. A base in Korea only made sense if they achieved complete naval supremacy and occupied all of Korea.
          1. +2
            14 July 2026 14: 48
            I never thought I'd ever agree with you)))
          2. 0
            15 July 2026 22: 00
            Saxahorse, then what about the above quote from Makarov, that the Japanese will land in Korea, advance to Port Arthur, concentrate more forces, and take it?
            But I'm not even interested in Makarov; he made mistakes. I'm more interested in the opinions of Admiral Dubasov and M.A. Petrov. And the latter, in his book about the battles of the steam fleet, explicitly wrote that the naval base should have been in the south of Korea?
            1. 0
              16 July 2026 08: 51
              Quote: Alexander Iloev
              I value the opinions of Admiral Dubasov and M.A. Petrov more. Did the latter, in his book about the battles of the steam fleet, directly write that the naval base was supposed to be in the south of Korea?

              The Korean base is attractive as a forward base, as it would be right at the epicenter of events. However, the lack of communication with Russia would severely limit its capabilities. Coal and ammunition could be shipped in advance, but spare parts and materials for repairs would be impossible to bring in. Therefore, a second, primary base would be needed, where ships could depart for repairs.
          3. 0
            15 July 2026 22: 21
            Saxahorse, in addition to what I wrote, which I can't find: in all three places, to successfully fight the Japanese fleet, you need to have at least a smaller one. In fact, a larger one – see Makarov's words about the superiority of Japanese shipyards. If we decided to fight with a smaller force, as in reality, the result will most likely be the same. And if we decided to concentrate a larger fleet, then why not immediately at Cargodo, to preclude any landing? I'm writing this from hearsay. As for building a larger fleet, I believe it would be possible to build about 10% more for the same price. This is, of course, not the topic of this article. But indirect confirmation is Makarov's note on the 1903 shipbuilding program. Moreover, I actually wanted to achieve 10% from other resources, including funds allocated for deepening the Port Arthur harbor.
            What do you think should be the path to take: to continue fighting with smaller forces, or to deploy larger ones than the Japanese?
            1. +1
              16 July 2026 08: 56
              Quote: Alexander Iloev
              What do you think should be the path to take: to continue fighting with smaller forces, or to deploy larger ones than the Japanese?

              There's no such choice. Russia must concentrate greater, or at least equal, forces, and there will be no war. The defeat of the Russian fleet is a prerequisite for landing and supplying the army. The Russians could have fought successfully with a smaller force; they could have simply continuously threatened Japanese communications in the Yellow Sea, which would have made supplying the army in Manchuria problematic. But this requires an active, aggressive style, like Makarov's. Simply sitting at home can only lead to a lost naval war.
              1. +3
                16 July 2026 09: 23
                Quote: Saxahorse
                But this requires an active, aggressive style, like Makarov’s.

                Makarov only responded to new threats, and always belatedly. He never sent the FOC to sea at a rather convenient moment, waiting for the battleships to be repaired, and, predictably, it never arrived.
                Quote: Saxahorse
                The defeat of the Russian fleet is a prerequisite for the landing and supply of the army.

                Just not a rout, but a blockade.
                You know, some say the Japanese repeated all our mistakes at Plevna. I mean, they allowed us to finish building Port Arthur's fortifications. Had they landed troops straight away at Bydzyvo or even directly at Dalny, we, with our current combat readiness, wouldn't have had the strength to repel them.
                It's clear the Japanese didn't dare attempt such a gamble, as it was too risky, but... it was against the rather remote Port Arthur. But against Cargodo, with its meager transport reach, Amaterasu herself ordered them to try.
                1. +1
                  16 July 2026 20: 55
                  Quote: Senior Sailor
                  Makarov only reacted to new threats, and always with a delay.

                  Makarov had been in command for less than a month, but he stirred everyone up; before him, they'd been sitting idle. So what if it wasn't Makarov, or maybe Skrydlov, the main thing is that they get moving and don't just sunbathe by the sea.
            2. +1
              18 July 2026 15: 46
              Quote: Alexander Iloev
              What do you think should be the path to take: to continue fighting with smaller forces, or to deploy larger ones than the Japanese?

              Of course, bigger ones are better. For some reason, everyone keeps mentioning "Sisoy Velikiy" and "Navarin", forgetting about "Three Saints", "Rostislav", "Georgiy Pobedonosets"... Aren't these ships from the Russian Imperial Navy???
              1. +3
                20 July 2026 09: 10
                Quote: Ragnar
                Forgetting about "Three Saints", "Rostislav", "Georgiy Pobedonosets"... Are these ships not of the Russian Imperial Navy???

                IMHO, it seems that Türkiye did not let them through the Straits (this is in relation to the question of the need for the Straits for Russia).
                Speaking of which, I once read a financial breakdown in Makhov's book that, had the Straits zone been captured, maintaining the fortifications would have been cheaper than all the Black Sea fortresses combined. And a significant saving in the navy would have been possible after that—after all, maintaining a separate squadron was no longer necessary.
                1. +1
                  20 July 2026 10: 19
                  Quote: Trapper7
                  IMHO, it seems that Türkiye did not let them through the Straits (this is in relation to the question of the need for the Straits for Russia).
                  Speaking of which, I once read a financial breakdown in Makhov's book that, had the Straits zone been captured, maintaining the fortifications would have been cheaper than all the Black Sea fortresses combined. And a significant saving in the navy would have been possible after that—after all, maintaining a separate squadron was no longer necessary.

                  In this case, the following correspondence could hardly have taken place...
                  1. +2
                    22 July 2026 22: 00
                    Quote: Ragnar
                    In this case, the following correspondence could hardly have taken place...

                    This was a typical situation for sailors back then. He made a proposal, but how to implement it under the prevailing conditions was none of his business.
                    Actually, it's the same story with the base in Kargod. Not a single sailor even considered the consequences.
                    1. 0
                      25 July 2026 21: 11
                      Are you saying that people from the highest levels of naval command are discussing measures that are initially impossible (the passage of Black Sea Fleet ships through the straits)???
                      1. +1
                        25 July 2026 21: 24
                        Quote: Ragnar
                        Are you saying that people from the highest levels of naval management are discussing measures that are initially impossible?

                        This is a normal state for them.
                        Quote: Ragnar
                        passage of Black Sea Fleet ships through the straits

                        They probably believed that if the Sultan granted a firman for the passage of individual gunboats and even cruisers in peacetime, the same would be true in wartime. Moreover, as in the case of the exotic cruisers, they first announced their plans to the world and only then consulted diplomats.
                        And they explained to them in simple terms that such things don’t happen for free and that something will have to be sacrificed.
                      2. +1
                        25 July 2026 21: 44
                        Apparently, with members of the Imperial family on board, they let us through without question?!?!?!?! And we certainly had plenty of Grand Dukes and their uncles...
                      3. +2
                        25 July 2026 21: 47
                        Happy New Year to all those involved and simply concerned...
                      4. 0
                        27 July 2026 10: 00
                        Quote: Ragnar
                        Apparently, with members of the Imperial family on board, they let us through without any questions?!?!?!?!

                        To be honest, I only read about this from Doinikov.
                        But actually, "Memory of Azov" was allowed into Sevastopol to follow the Tsarevich. So maybe that's true.

                        Quote: Ragnar
                        We had plenty of Grand Dukes and their uncles...

                        That's true. But while, say, almost everyone went to the Russo-Turkish War, only two "Vladimirovichs" went to Manchuria. Sandro, it seems, was also planning to go, but he wasn't allowed. However, this is only known from his memoirs...
                      5. 0
                        27 July 2026 13: 10
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        That's true. But while, say, almost everyone went to the Russo-Turkish War, only two "Vladimirovichs" went to Manchuria. Sandro, it seems, was also planning to go, but he wasn't allowed. However, this is only known from his memoirs...

                        So they don’t need to go to war, they just need to ensure the passage of Black Sea ships through the Turkish Straits...
                      6. +1
                        27 July 2026 14: 45
                        Quote: Ragnar
                        So they don’t need to go to war, they just need to ensure the passage of Black Sea ships through the Turkish Straits...

                        The decision on whether to let them in or not will be made not even in Istanbul, but in London...
                      7. 0
                        27 July 2026 16: 20
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        The decision on whether to let them in or not will be made not even in Istanbul, but in London...

                        Do you think there's an English admiral who would open fire on a ship with a member of the Imperial family on board? Or would he ram it?
                      8. 0
                        27 July 2026 16: 16
                        "Bogatyr" entered the Black Sea, and even without the "princes", apparently the body of some general...
                      9. 0
                        28 July 2026 15: 02
                        Quote: Ragnar
                        "Bogatyr" entered the Black Sea, even without the "princes"

                        In 1909. Peacetime.
                      10. 0
                        28 July 2026 17: 46
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        In 1909. Peacetime.

                        In 1904, it was also a time of peace for Turkey...
          4. 0
            16 July 2026 19: 13
            Saharose. Landing is a very difficult and lengthy operation; it doesn't happen in a few hours. It's the most difficult operation possible. You also have to transport artillery and supplies. It will last several days.
            1. 0
              16 July 2026 20: 59
              Quote: Alexander Iloev
              Landing is a very difficult and lengthy operation; it does not take place in a few hours.

              The landing itself takes just a few hours. For example, the Japanese landed at Chemulpo in three hours. But then, yes, the problem of supply begins. This is where an enemy fleet can create a ton of problems for the army on the other side of the sea.
              1. 0
                20 July 2026 14: 35
                Salaries, why are you arguing? If you're landing no more than a battalion, you're right. But if you're landing a division, it can't do without artillery and provisions. Landing at least an army makes sense—for the Japanese, that's 3-4 divisions and reserve brigades. Rummaging through local villages for provisions won't work; they won't feed your troops, and ammunition doesn't grow in your garden. Artillery and supply trains can't be landed just anywhere; you need a port, and several days—by then, the Russian fleet will arrive.
                Okay, you've landed successfully. But you're out of supplies. Previously, the Russians, let's say, didn't know where you'd be landing (though that's not true; they must have had reconnaissance, if you're not landing a battalion, then such places are few and far between). Now, knowing where the Yavas have landed, they're cutting off your supplies.
                Similarly, in the 1941-1945 war, a British general was asked, "What if a German division lands on your territory?" He replied, "I'll send some policemen to them, they'll show them where to go to the nearest prisoner of war camp."
                1. +1
                  20 July 2026 21: 49
                  Quote: Alexander Iloev
                  Salaries, why are you arguing? If you're landing no more than a battalion, then you're right. But if you're landing a division, then

                  I don't understand why we're arguing if you agree on the main point. The navy's primary mission is to disrupt Japanese supply lines. Intercepting the landing force itself is unlikely. In this regard, a base in Korea would provoke a sharp escalation from the very first minutes of the war; the Japanese won't be able to ignore such a base in the rear. They'll likely try to unleash a decisive battle on the very first day. And the Russian forces are in a less favorable position here; such a base serves as a staging airfield; sustaining prolonged combat operations without supplies is impossible using the base.

                  Quote: Alexander Iloev
                  Similarly, in the 1941-1945 war, a British general was asked, "What if a German division lands on your territory?" He replied, "I'll send some policemen to them, they'll show them where to go to the nearest prisoner of war camp."

                  There's a subtle nuance here. The Englishman said this while standing on his own soil. But in Korea, Russian forces will be on equal terms with the Japanese landing force, just as cut off from supplies.

                  Incidentally, the base in Korea is also a political provocation. Let me remind you of the demarcation of zones of influence along the 55th parallel. The actual reason for the rupture in relations and the start of the Russian Nuclear War was the deployment of Russian troops to concessions near the Yalu River. That is, a violation of the influence-sharing agreements. An attempt to establish a base in southern Korea would immediately lead to a rupture and, of course, become a pretext for war.
                  1. 0
                    27 July 2026 11: 05
                    Saxarose, in this case it is not so important.
                    In this case, I meant that troops cannot operate without a stable supply. Where they are located is not so important. Even if you land in Korea, but do not defeat the Russian fleet, you will not have reliable supplies.
                    You're arguing not with me now, but primarily with M.A. Petrov (and others, too). He has many years of service in the navy, and was just a little too young to fight in this war. Compare that to yourself—is it worth arguing?
                    1. +1
                      28 July 2026 08: 57
                      Quote: Alexander Iloev
                      Saxarose, in this case it is not so important.

                      What exactly is unimportant? Please formulate your thought. smile

                      I completely agree that fighting without supplies is problematic. And this will fully apply to the Korean base, cut off from Russia after the war begins.

                      I'm not entirely sure where you're citing Petrov. Perhaps I'm arguing not with him but with your interpretation of some of his statements. smile
        2. -1
          14 July 2026 15: 19
          Quote: Alexander Iloev
          How will this help intercept the Japanese landing in southern Korea?

          Absolutely not. Given the current balance of power, it's impossible in principle. Our fleet is far weaker than the Japanese and wouldn't be able to withstand a direct fight. At best, it would attempt to intervene and then retreat after a failure. And on land, we have Kuropatkin's army, which is three to four times inferior to the Japanese expeditionary force in terms of numbers, as well as weapons and supplies. There were no capabilities or forces at that time to counter a Japanese landing in Korea. Especially since they had the initiative in choosing the place and time. These are the basic initial conditions of this war.
          If the people of St. Petersburg had truly thought and acted to prepare for war and ensure victory, they would have taken steps in advance to transport additional troops by sea (a half-million-strong army could have been transported there with all its equipment, weapons, and supplies in two or three years), and to build new ships for the navy in a timely manner to ensure a numerical and qualitative superiority over the enemy. The Tsar (and his vizier) did none of this; on the contrary, funds for all the needs of the coming war were constantly being cut, slashed, and delayed. So don't break your heart and don't try to replay a guaranteed-lost war with the same cards. Even simply preventing it could have been relatively simple and inexpensive. Let's just say they didn't recall the Sisoes and Navarin from Arthur—with these two old but combat-ready battleships, we would have had 10 armored ships in Arthur. It would have been possible to avoid returning the Oslyabya to Kronstadt for repairs (her condition there was not critical), and instead send her with the others to Artur and undergo repairs there (at the same Dalny dock). And this doesn't even begin to consider the possibility, with better and more timely funding, of completing the Borodin series somewhat earlier, and even managing to transfer one or two of them to Artur along with the Tsarevich and Bayan. Simple organizational and management decisions on the eve of an already inevitable war, and Russia would have had a fully combat-ready squadron in Artur, which would have been able to impede the Japanese landings. But it still wouldn't have been able to even land troops in Korea to control and hold even one or two Korean ports as naval bases—it lacked the ground forces for that. The Japanese would have landed anyway, and it would have been very difficult to prevent them from doing so—everything was very close there, no long journeys for landing forces or supply ships. And we wouldn't have been able to maintain a fleet there permanently. And we didn't have the strength to hold the base in Korea.
          To win, it was simply necessary to have an army and navy sufficient in numbers, equipment, and supplies, superior to the Japanese. None of this existed, meaning victory under those conditions was impossible. Kuropatkin had a plan for this contingency, too—a difficult one, very challenging for the Army, but a saving one for the Navy. But it was rejected.
          1. 0
            15 July 2026 09: 24
            Quote: bayard
            Absolutely not. Given the current balance of power, it's impossible in principle. Our fleet is far weaker than the Japanese and wouldn't be able to withstand a direct fight. At best, it would attempt to intervene and then retreat after a failure. And on land, we have Kuropatkin's army, which is three to four times inferior to the Japanese expeditionary force in terms of numbers, as well as weapons and supplies. There were no capabilities or forces at that time to counter a Japanese landing in Korea. Especially since they had the initiative in choosing the place and time. These are the basic initial conditions of this war.

            good
            1. -1
              15 July 2026 11: 44
              hi
              But the basic conditions could have easily been changed, having recovered in St. Petersburg, if in 1903 the Sisoes and Navarin had been returned to the Far East, and the Oslyabya, with its "scratch," had been transferred there as well. After all, the double bottom was intact, and the leak in the hull was minor. It would have been quickly repaired in the Far East. The Aurora and Svetlana (it seems she was hanging around in Suez with the others) would have strengthened the cruiser force. The main forces of the squadron were transferred to Dalniy, and the coastal batteries were set up with 12 six-inch guns from the Varyag, which, as a boiler-damaged vessel, was sent to Kronstadt in the fall of 1903 for urgent repairs and modernization (replacing the boilers with those of the Belleville, arming it with guns with armored shields). This way, it would be quite capable of returning to Arthur in 1904, along with the "Borodinites."
              So we would have had the 10 battleships we were looking for by the end of 1903 + the Bayan and a small addition of cruisers - essentially a replacement for the Aurora, which still has a 20-knot speed, the departed Varyag + the old light Svetlana, but would also be suitable for combat protection from destroyers.
              And now we can fight.
              Not very confident in Tsushima (too far from the bases), but the Japanese definitely had no chance of landing in Manchuria.
              And if, having recovered in the spring of 1903, they had managed to transfer three divisions by sea before the end of 1903... One to garrison Dalny, and two to advance to Korea and take up positions in the mountain passes (approximately in the area of ​​the current border of the DPRK and South Korea), then it would have been possible to stop and contain the Japanese landing forces in Korea. It would have been desirable if these (at least one of the two divisions) had been mountain rangers. With mountain guns and the correct mountain warfare skills. And the war as we know it would have unfolded in a completely different direction.
              Having at least some troops in Korea and favorable defensive positions, the Pacific Fleet could have already considered establishing an operational base in Korea, under our control. Not in the south, as some proposed at the time, but in the central part of its coast, facing Arthur. Or even a little further north. From there, the fleet could provide support for our defending forces in Korea from the sea flank and hinder amphibious landings. The threat of Japanese amphibious landings from the northern coast of Korea would remain, but the Vladivostok detachment could prevent this. To the best of its ability, of course. But even here, there were options: occupy another Korean port as a second operational base and reinforce the Vladivostok detachment with, say, three Peresvets. This would certainly have been worse for Kamimura's detachment, and seven squadron battleships plus the Bayan would have remained in Dalny.
              Or not to split the squadron's forces (which would be even better), but to periodically conduct raids with the entire squadron's forces from one coast of Korea to the other. But that's a distraction; the main thing is that we had an opportunity to equalize our forces with the Japanese in 1903, and it was wasted.
              And in the second half of 1904, four Borodinets-class ships and Nebogatov's entire 3rd squadron, plus the repaired Varyag, would have arrived in the Far East. Coastal defense battleships would have been very useful for naval support of our troops in Korea and in a future (if it came to that) landing operation in Japan. From liberated Korea.
              This is roughly what Kuropatkin proposed when he asked to send troops by sea to set up a barrier at the passes in Korea.
              There were many possible scenarios for that war, but they all boiled down to the need to hold out without decisive battles until the second half of 1905, when rail links with the European part of the country would be established and sufficient troops for offensive action would arrive in the Far East. And maintaining stability until then could only be achieved through sufficient naval forces in the theater of operations, capable of neutralizing the Japanese fleet and preventing a landing in Manchuria. Such a fleet had not been assembled there, although the ships for it were available. And the main problem was that the Russian Empire was then led by... an incompetent ruler (the tsar). But then, what did they have?
              1. +1
                15 July 2026 13: 43
                Quote: bayard
                But the basic conditions could have been easily changed.

                My favorite activity.
                If in 1903 they had returned the Sisoya and Navarin to the Far East, and had also transferred the Oslyabya there

                This issue isn't all that simple either. Look here:
                1. It is believed that Japan has decided for itself that if Russia concentrates 10 ebrs in the Far East, then the conflict must be resolved peacefully.
                2. Let us assume that Russia concentrated these forces (Sisoy, Navarin, Oslyabya) and in 1904 the parties came to a peace agreement.
                And here's where things get interesting: on the one hand, we're beginning to actively develop the Far East and China, among other countries. This requires colossal investments, and most importantly, we're forced to continue maintaining a large fleet. But our commitments to France remain, the budget is finite, and we'll inevitably face budgetary choices. It's important to understand that the loans to Japan for strengthening its fleet weren't given out of great friendship, but for specific purposes. And those purposes are in Russia.
                What I'm getting at is that a possible peace agreement with Japan in 1904 might not be a solution, but merely a postponement of the conflict. And how things will unfold after that is highly uncertain. Could it be that as soon as we decide to strengthen the Baltic Fleet against Germany and transfer new ships to Libau, Japan won't attack our fleet? I can also remind you of the ships already under construction for the Mikado's fleet, and they were very good and powerful.
                In general, perhaps strategically the war with Japan in 1904 turned out to be less dramatic than it could have been in 1907. Or even in 1914.
                1. -1
                  15 July 2026 16: 41
                  Here, everything is both simpler and more complicated - Japan was required to start a war back in the summer of 1903, immediately after the last ships being built for it in England were handed over. The Japanese were hesitant. Then they were given another loan (by American banks) to purchase the Nishin and Kosugi, and the British organized this purchase in an emergency (since the builder of these ships for Argentina really wanted Russia to buy them, but Witte refused to pay, and this deal was impossible due to the terms of the peace treaty between Argentina and Chile). American banks (a group of banks managed by J. Schiff - a trusted person of the English Rothschilds in the USA) also gave Japan a "war loan", supposedly $100 million (400 million rubles at the exchange rate) and demanded that it begin immediately. So, literally a few days after the arrival of the Nishin and Kosugi in Japan, the Japanese began. So they couldn't help but start. The war had to break out before the Trans-Siberian Railway and the KBM were completed. In the summer of 1903, when they were demanding to start the war, the Trans-Siberian Railway had not yet been completed. And the Japanese had until mid-1905 to succeed in the war, and everyone knew this.
                  But I'll continue and answer the next question: what would Japan's situation be if it postponed the war, say, until new ships (and you know which ones) were built? Japan is up to its ears in debt, it mobilized its army, built a navy (and it's becoming obsolete so quickly), and mobilized a huge number of ships for landing operations and supplying expeditionary forces. It prepared very seriously and invested heavily. Should it cancel the war, leave it as is, and wait another two years for the ships to be built/completed? Its economy won't be able to handle it.
                  You wrote that the Japanese have already ordered several new ships of a new type, so-called "pre-dreadnoughts." But Russia, too, was planning to immediately follow the "Borodinets" series with a series of 17,000-ton battleships. And not in the form of "Pervozvanets"—this confusion arose entirely by accident. The new ships were supposed to have radically enhanced main battery artillery. And the 12" guns themselves were supposed to be 45 calibers long, i.e. with very high armor penetration at medium ranges. Such guns were going to be installed on the "Borodinets". But Russia did not have machines of such length for turning barrels, they were ordered (in France, I think), but they definitely did not have time for the "Borodinets". But they would have had time for the next series. Several projects were considered, the most likely was a project with a 20,000 hp propulsion plant, with two three-gun turrets and a conventional composition of auxiliary artillery (12 x 6"). There were other projects, including those similar to those that the Japanese turned out. And they were going to build at least 5-6 of them. So, the Japanese were not the only ones building a fleet, but Russia had more money (and not borrowed).
                  And war in Europe in the Russian Empire could have been avoided simply by concluding an alliance treaty with the Kaiser—an alliance in the Far East and neutrality in Europe. That's all. Russia has a free hand and resources for its Far Eastern projects.
                  And don't think that the Republic of Ingushetia took money from the budget for these projects. stop That would be sheer blasphemy. The Russian Empire got the money for all its projects from the same place it got it for the Trans-Siberian Railway and the KBM—from a "nightstand." And that "nightstand" is called "Investment Issue." Stalin had exactly the same "nightstand" for Industrialization and all the other miracles of the Soviet economy. To better understand this, it's worth reading the book "After the Victory of the Slavophiles" by the Russian economic genius Sharapov, published in 1905. It has been digitized and is available online.
                  So, for Japan, war was inevitable just as it was for us. But the basic conditions (in the case of transferring the "Sisoya", "Navarin", "Oslyabya", "Aurora" and "Svetlana" to Artur (possibly with several new \\not 120-tonners!!\\ destroyers and supply ships) ... have changed very seriously. And if we also have time to transfer the three divisions that are so lacking there (one to the Dalniy garrison, two to the Korean passes) by sea fellow Everything now plays with completely different colors.
                  We're reinforcing Dalny with Varyag artillery (he's already changing the cauldrons in Kronstadt), deploying two divisions at the passes, then taking one of the Korean ports (in the part under our control) and... our fleet begins regularly cruising back and forth and around Kwantung. Light naval forces are still scurrying around—reconnaissance, patrol, and scouts from the Korean operational base are running to Tsushima. An old gunboat and one or two numbered tugboats are stationed in Chemulpo as aide-de-camp.
                  The forces are equalized; we have more battleships and superiority in main guns. It is now extremely dangerous for the Japanese to march to the shores of Manchuria, and it is far away—it is difficult to replenish coal.
                  But!! The Japanese still have the option of landing in Korea. They will definitely start a war, but now they will do so in order to hedge against failure. It will be easier to retreat and evacuate troops from Korea, and it will be more convenient to supply them. It will be difficult for us to interfere with them. So the war will then not be in Manchuria, but in Korea.
                  And don't forget that if we "smartened up again" in the spring of 1903 (Witte was hanged or exiled from the Empire, and the "Sharapov group" returned to power), then four brand-new "Borodinets" and "Oleg" with "pebbles" would be in Arthur by the end of the summer of 1904. And we would already have 14 battleships in Arthur + "Bayan" (where would we be without it). And then successful and aggressive raids on the shores of Japan and South Korea would become possible, disrupting logistics and destroying ports. The Japanese fleet would no longer be able to stop us.
                  But until then, we'll have to endure. Distract the main forces of the Japanese fleet with the Arthur squadron, harass their logistics with the Vladivostok cruisers, hold the line in Korea, where all the reserves arriving in the Far East will now be sent. And wait for the KBM to be completed.
                  Well, you have to admit, it's definitely more fun this way. The war wasn't called off, Arthur wasn't lost, and the 2nd (and 3rd) squadrons were finally here, although they'll just be the 2nd squadron, but with all the coastal defense battleships and the shamanized oldies. They'll still have a blast supporting the Imperial Russian Army's naval landings.
                  The Japanese might, of course, in desperation, land in Primorye... but not in winter! Most likely in spring or summer. And they might even succeed (perhaps) in taking Vladivostok temporarily. stop This is all temporary and short-lived. The second squadron is already on its way, troops are arriving in the Far East, and a new series of powerful 17-ton battleships is being built in the Baltic, which will tear the new Japanese battleships apart like a Tuzik destroyer. 45-caliber guns with new-style shells... that's a terrible thing. And they will be handed over to the navy by the end of 1905.
                  The new cruisers will be built as a cross between the Bayan and the Bogatr - a 20,000 hp propulsion plant, 2 x 10" in single-gun turrets, 10 x 6" in casemates, 12-14 x 75 mm., an upper belt of 76 mm., the main one - like the Bayan or a uniform thickness of 152 mm., VI 9000 tons, a speed of 21,5 - 22 knots. Oh yes - with the help of the Vulcan company, the power of the propulsion plant can be increased to 22,000 hp, and the speed to 22,5 knots.
                  And no one will stop or curtail the shipbuilding program (as after the defeat), and there was no intention of doing so. Shipbuilding will be constantly being laid, and the slipways will not be idle. And then the Far Eastern shipyards will begin operating – in Artur (destroyers, light cruisers, repairs and modernization) and Dalniy (a powerful, state-of-the-art shipyard for building large warships and ocean liners). And the money for all this will come not from budget revenues, but from the Development Budget.
                  These funds will gradually be used to buy up land in Manchuria (in the plans), everything is fair, Russia had no intention of offending anyone there. Settlers and colonists will come (the plan was to resettle them only in Manchuria from overcrowded rural areas of the western provinces, to ease the tension in the "Land Question." There will now be enough land for everyone. Manchuria will become a "New Marten, Health Resort, and Granary." All of this is part of the real plans of the Russian Empire for the development of the Far East.
                  And as a result of the war, Japan will be demilitarized, deindustrialized (this is very important), and will receive a Russian protectorate (like Korea). But Japan will also pay. And repent. And their emperor's family will be deported to Russia. They will live somewhere near St. Petersburg or in Kalmykia and atone for their sins.

                  If you want to know how events would have turned out if Witte had not seized power in 1898, I will tell you. The projects and plans are known, as are the possibilities and aspirations of the parties.
                  1. -1
                    15 July 2026 16: 52
                    Quote: bayard
                    In Chemulpo there is an old gunboat stationed and one or two numbered tugboats as a notice.

                    Of course, not two tugboats, but two numbered destroyers. Either a typo, or the AI ​​is playing around.
                  2. -1
                    15 July 2026 17: 15
                    Quote: bayard
                    The settlers-colonists will go (it was planned to resettle them only to Manchuria from the overpopulated rural areas of the western provinces, in order to relieve tension in the "Land Question"

                    I didn't finish it. The plan was to resettle 30 million young families from the western provinces to Manchuria in a short period of time. Resettlement would be at government expense, plus a relocation allowance. Each family would receive a train car for the move. The land could either be purchased inexpensively with a long-term installment plan, or (more rationally) the land would become property after five years of receipt, for as long as the family (or community) had managed to develop during that time. The latter option was considered the primary one. Demobilized soldiers and sailors would receive land immediately and free of charge (without any delays) – as having earned it in the service of the state.
                    And just imagine how these people will defend their land after this if the Japanese try to capture the bird of happiness again.
          2. 0
            15 July 2026 22: 27
            Bayard, in my article I suggest that we decided to build a fleet AT LEAST as large by 1904. In 1896 and 1897, no ships were laid down at all—start building earlier. "Not enough funds"—I once read how much Russia spent on Manchuria; I don't remember the exact figures, but it seems like it could have built two or three fleets. Finally, there's the royal family's resources. If only there was a will.
            1. -1
              16 July 2026 04: 03
              Alexander, I've written a lot about this on the VO forums, so I won't repeat myself now. If you'd like, just go to my profile and read my comments on this topic; it'll be easier. But most importantly, search for Sharapov's book "After the Victory of the Slavophiles"; it was digitized and republished in 2005 (it was written in 1905). His other articles and works are there as well. He wrote very interestingly, it's easy to read, and it reveals a lot about those events. About many events you didn't even suspect. This man and his group created, wrote, and designed all those programs for the strategic development of the Russian Empire, starting in the late 19th century. He was an advisor and ally of Alexander III; the Tsar approved all of these programs, and they even began to be implemented. But the Clever Tsar was ultimately killed after a series of assassination attempts. And the heir, on whom nature not only rested but danced... removed his father's associates, ruined all his undertakings and the Empire itself. Read this book, and much will become clear to you. Without understanding the Sharapov phenomenon, the entire history of our country seems like a continuous mess and vacillations. But you will understand the nature of everything that happened to our country after reading this book. It was Sharapov's students and associates who created the great Soviet Gosplan, it was they who brought Lenin the GOELRO plan back during the Civil War, it was they who carried out all those incredible Stalinist reforms – industrialization, collectivization, agricultural mechanization (inter-district technical stations), financial reform, reform of the healthcare and education systems. It was members of his organization (the leadership of the General Staff) who chose the Bolsheviks to save Russia, brought them to power and won the Civil War, and then helped the Stalin-Dzerzhinsky group seize power from the permanent revolutionaries and build the first state of a new (human) type in history. I knew one of the members of that, Stalinist, Gosplan.
              As for the question of whether the Russian Empire could have properly prepared for the Russian Revolution and overcome all the traps it set, I'll answer simply: if Rothschild-Witte hadn't seized power in the Russian Empire in 1898, the Russian Empire would have had no problems with this at all. And the navy would have been built not just "equal"... (who was there to equal?), it would have been unattainably overwhelming for Japan. And troops would have been transferred by sea in sufficient numbers to repel any landings, and our bases in Artur and Dalny would have been put in order on time. And there would have been enough resources for this. The slipways wouldn't have sat empty for a year or more, the most optimal ship designs would have been assigned (and they were available to choose from), and ships would have been built for us at foreign shipyards, not as prototypes, but in series. And there was money for everything. You can't even imagine how comprehensively these issues were resolved. But in 1898, everything went downhill. Accepted and already approved programs were cut, altered, stretched out in time, there were delays in financing, many contracts and agreements even concluded with foreign shipyards were terminated. So, Kramp came to St. Petersburg at the invitation to conclude a contract for 4 large armored ships, 50 destroyers and a number of auxiliary vessels, and upon arrival he was also asked for assistance in the construction of two large new shipyards in Artur and Dalniy, to which he happily agreed, he had a friend - an experienced builder of modern shipyards, and he proposed his son as a manager for these shipyards, as an experienced shipbuilding engineer. And then literally in an instant everything changed and it was decided to refuse Kramp the order altogether. Not the MS, and not General-Admiral Witte. And only through a terrible scandal and the intercession of the MS and General-Admiral Kramp was given an order for a single Retvizan (the Varyag had already been ordered and was under construction), and even then, after twisting his arm over the price. Then Witte even cheated him when paying for the finished ship, paying not in gold (as in the contract), but in silver, which was then even cheaper. And that's not to mention the scandals surrounding the stolen technical documentation for the Novik from the Germans and the refusal to order the agreed-upon three more similar cruisers. The scandal with the creators of the Askold cruiser, of which they also planned to order two, and they then demonstratively burned all the technical documentation for the Askold in the presence of journalists. But in Russia they were planning to build a series of “Askolds”, and not “Bogatyrs”.
              These are not accidents, not historical curiosities, not stupidity or foolishness. This is a consistent effort to bring Russia to a shameful defeat in a war with a third-rate power, to organize a revolution there and to collapse the country. Witte consistently and purposefully led the Russian Empire to this goal. He is the author and organizer of the first "Russian" revolution, the shooting of workers on Senate Square. He is not alone; their name is legion, but he was the leader and curator of this process. Read the book, it's there. Sharapov fought this ghoul, he exposed him in publications, he organized the Union of the Russian People to suppress the "revolutionary" obscurantism with the forces of the people themselves. And it was thanks to his organizations that Witte was ultimately disavowed, removed from office, and exiled from the country. The tsar couldn't touch the relative of his main creditor, but he designated him "my personal enemy." On the very eve of Witte's departure, his agents attempted to assassinate Sharapov at his estate, resulting in his death shortly afterward. Immediately after his death, the same agents secretly entered his house and stole/carried away his entire archive. But his students remained, and they carried out many of their mentor's plans under Stalin.
              1. 0
                18 July 2026 16: 16
                Quote: bayard
                But most importantly, search for Sharapov's book "After the Victory of the Slavophiles"; it was digitized and republished in 2005 (it was written in 1905). His other articles and works are also there. He wrote very interestingly, it's easy to read, and it reveals a great deal about those events.

                Your memoirs, Sharapova's, and Krampov's for that matter, are somehow very reminiscent of the memoirs of Hitler's field marshals, generals, etc. Only in their case, Hitler was to blame for everything, while in yours, Nicholas II and Witte, well, if it weren't for them... Oh, how would we... And also... Stop calling the Russian Emperors, starting with Peter III, "Romanovs"... Total Germans...
                1. +2
                  18 July 2026 23: 13
                  Quote: Ragnar
                  Your memoirs Sharapova

                  That's the point, it's his))
                  The whole point is that Sergei Fedorovich would have been very surprised to learn what an important role he played during the reign of the Peacemaker.
          3. 0
            18 July 2026 16: 01
            Quote: bayard
            And this is without going into the possibilities, with better and timely financing, of completing the Borodin series a little earlier, and even having time to transfer one or two of them to Artur, along with the Tsarevich and Bayan.

            Absolutely impossible... Should I remind you why the "Emperor Alexander III" didn't leave for the Far East in 1903, as it was the most ready? And how much trouble did it suffer with its keels, keel notches, and stern windows? And the repeated dockings (including ice docking), with damaged bottom? Are you only thinking about money?
            1. 0
              27 July 2026 12: 01
              Ragnar and Borodin are impossible, thanks to their curved sides, which allow for good visibility without damaging their own ship with their side turrets. I'd like to avoid discussing ships, as it's endless, but I've heard opinions that if more traditional battleships had been built, each of them would have entered service about a year earlier. Furthermore, after the Peresvetovs were laid down, not a single warship was laid down for two years, if I remember correctly.
              1. +2
                27 July 2026 12: 24
                Quote: Alexander Iloev
                Moreover, after the laying of the Peresvetov, not a single warship was laid down for 2 years, if I remember correctly.

                Pallada, Diana, Aurora, Gilyak... And the destroyers...
              2. +1
                27 July 2026 14: 45
                Quote: Alexander Iloev
                I would like to move away from the discussion of ships, because it is endless, but I have come across opinions that if battleships of a more traditional type were built, then each of them would enter service about a year earlier.

                There is such an endless debate... Alas and alack... Personally, it hardly affects me...
                1. First of all, we didn't have gunpowder... just kidding...
                2. The Retvizan and Slava were built around the same time. How did the curved sides play into this? The Oslyabya and Potemkin are more traditional battleships... how did that help them?
                3. "Palladas"... cruisers in general... The curved sides or the turret arrangement of the 6" guns forced us to fiddle with them for 6-7 years????
                4. By "more traditional" battleships, we naturally mean the Retvizan; there simply wasn't another design... But even that wouldn't have been immediately produced at domestic shipyards...
                A. They definitely wouldn't install Nikloss boilers...
                b. Retvizan's steam engines weren't exactly the height of perfection (four-cylinder engines were coming into fashion)...
                V. Ventilation... would our people bother with these hollow balls??? I don't think so...
                Russian factories did not have the shipbuilding technology used by Cramp...
                d. And would the manufacturers of guns, turrets, vehicles, boilers, and armor have pulled out new deadlines???
                e. And the mania for constantly improving everything has not gone away...
                And these are new calculations, recalculations, drawings... And the most important thing is time... And considering that in MTK the drawings could "lie dormant" for years, what are we surprised about???
                5. Why are we muddying the waters? The program is scheduled to end in 1905. So that's how it was implemented...
                When is the Port Arthur fortress scheduled for completion? 1909? Then why are we surprised it wasn't ready by early 1904? What a PARADOX, indeed...
          4. 0
            27 July 2026 11: 25
            Bayard, I don’t know if it’s worth retelling the article.
            Wherever a floa base is located, to avoid losing the war at sea, it's necessary to have at least as many forces at one time. The question arises: was it really possible?
            The answer is yes. But that's a separate topic. And if this topic is declared alternative—I'd like to ask which of the people I've cited is an alternative—then what can I say about it? Therefore, I won't even share my estimates, which are naturally rough and approximate. I won't be forgiven for that. Some of my critics are allowed to do so, because I don't want to waste time searching for their mistakes, of which there are many, and much more serious ones.

            Having a navy in the Far East that rivals Japan's isn't a piece of cake, but it's possible. Let me quote from the naval-manual channel again: "If a decision had been made to do so, no sacrifice to our initial superiority would have been excessive."
            In other words, it's not a matter of technical or financial difficulties, which Japan had, although considerably greater, didn't stop them. After all, we don't ask, "How was it possible for an industrially weak Asian country to challenge a Great Power and the world's third-most powerful navy?"
            So you're writing about Japanese superiority again. It all happened because one side DECIDED it NEEDED such superiority, while the other decided it DID NOT need it.
            Please write me the full title of the book and the author that was recommended to me.
            1. 0
              27 July 2026 15: 36
              Quote: Alexander Iloev
              For some reason, we don’t ask “how was it possible for an Asian country with weak industrial capacity to challenge a Great Power and the third most powerful navy in the world?”

              Oh, come on, that's exactly where all the questions about this war started. VO recently published a very good article about who financed and armed Japan for this war, and to what extent. And believe me, such sums are indicated there that remember how Witte at the same time "spared on matches", cut the programs for the construction of ships and equipment for the naval bases in the Far East, and also changed already approved plans and revised / indicated which projects should be built (remember how instead of the powerful and high-speed "Diana" of the original project, ridiculous, weak and slow "goddesses" appeared, how instead of a new project of an armored cruiser based on the Peresvet project, but without its absurdities and with a two-shaft propulsion plant of 20,000 hp, "Pobeda" and "Gromoboy" were built as they were built) ... in short, the financial statements reveal not only everything. And Japan was financed by the Bank of England (Rothschild) and a group of American banks in the USA, headed by Jacob Schiff (a trusted person of the English Rothschilds in the USA).
              But to have a fleet in the Pacific Ocean more powerful than Japan's, we simply had to complete our own program on time, in the planned volume, and within the planned timeframe. We had everything we needed, including the money. The "spy at the throne," Rothschild-Witte (from the Halachic line of the French Rothschilds), prevented this. So we simply had to hang him immediately after the "crash" he orchestrated (detonating a bomb under the dining car) of the Tsar's train in Borki. And then the Japanese would not have had even a shadow of hope for success with the amphibious landing in January 1904, and the Rothschilds would have had to wait for the USA to build its "White Fleet" and be ready for war in the Pacific (the armored race in the USA began precisely for the future probable war with Russia in the Far East). And they would also have had to arm and deploy the Chinese against the Russian Empire. But they could not have done this before 1906, only sabotage. The US fleet was built and fully ready for war no earlier than 1906, and in the form as we know the "White Fleet" (18 battleships), it was fully ready only at the end of 1907. By that time, we could have had at least no less in the Far East, and having already defeated Japan. But this would have happened only in the normal course of events. And they were absolutely abnormal.
              Quote: Alexander Iloev
              Write me the full title of the book and the author that was recommended to me.

              The book "After the Victory of the Slavophiles" by S. Sharapov, published in 1905, was republished in 2005 in Moscow under the editorship of O. A. Platonov. It has been scanned and is available online; I checked. hi
              1. 0
                27 July 2026 16: 25
                Quote: bayard
                as instead of a new armored cruiser project based on the Peresvet project

                What kind of armored cruiser is this??? Armored??? Armored deck or unarmored???
                1. -1
                  27 July 2026 18: 02
                  This is for Kolobov, he will tell you.
    3. 0
      14 July 2026 05: 31
      Senior seaman, given the circumstances, it was simply impossible to anger the Japanese public with anything more than the occupation of Port Arthur. I'm suggesting that Russia leave Port Arthur to China. And secondly, it's not the public that's at issue, but the fact that Japan has been preparing for war with Russia since 1895. And some are writing even earlier. It's in the plans. And the "public" is perfectly manageable, both then and now—look at Ukraine. "It won't work to supply"—of course it won't, because you don't want that. However, for example, English steamships were perfectly capable of supplying both Russian bases with coal; I would also say that's impossible. And that's an order of magnitude more impossible than what's being proposed here. Better write, "By the way, whoever that is, M.A. Petrov doesn't understand anything about maritime affairs."
      1. +1
        14 July 2026 08: 17
        Quote: Alexander Iloev
        The senior sailor, given the circumstances, could not have angered the Japanese public with anything more than the occupation of Port Arthur.

        This is what you think.
        Quote: Alexander Iloev
        look at Ukraine.

        Well, of course, how could I not bring it up...
        Quote: Alexander Iloev
        However, for example, English steamships supplied both Russian bases with coal perfectly

        Was it absolutely wonderful? Or did you only get through it a couple of times by miracle?
        Quote: Alexander Iloev
        It would be better to write that “M.A. Petrov, by the way, who is this, doesn’t understand anything about maritime affairs.”

        Trying to hide behind other people's quotes and authority figures? Well, well...
        1. 0
          14 July 2026 12: 48
          Senior Seaman, you write, "That's just your opinion." I prefer to think within the confines of sufficient information, rather than "in general"—that's the domain of alternative theorists, which, by the way, you've emerged from. Many historians have written about the inevitability of war with Japan, regardless of Russia's policies. It can only be delayed or hastened. If that's the case, then what does "my opinion" have to do with it?
          "I'm trying to hide behind other people's opinions" - you see, I'm not a participant in the events, not a military theorist like Petrov, and therefore if he writes that "Port Arthur was completely unsuitable," and in another place that "the naval base should be moved to the south of Korea," then I believe him, and not, forgive me, the alternative theorists who haven't read him.
      2. +2
        16 July 2026 11: 34
        One last remark.
        Quote: Alexander Iloev
        Given the circumstances, it was simply impossible to anger the Japanese public with anything greater than the occupation of Port Arthur.

        You cite people whose opinions you consider authoritative, specifically Naval-Manual. But if you'd read not only the articles but also the discussion threads, you might have noticed this.
        The occupation of Mozampo would likely have led to an almost immediate war with Japan, for which Korea was a matter of life and death. It's very difficult to say how we would have fought Japan in 1898-1899.

        But the whole point is that the Russian authorities did not want a war, which in this case would become not only inevitable, but also immediate.
        That's all.
  7. +4
    12 July 2026 12: 30
    This topic has already been discussed on Topvar. Ideally, given the vast coastline, not one or two, but at least five bases are needed, from Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky to Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky. Clearly, everything can't be done at once; they had to start somewhere, and Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky is the right decision in terms of economic prospects. The base in Mozapo looks interesting, but it will be practically immediately cut off from supplies. Why the Kuril Islands and Tsushima were given to the Japanese is unclear; our tsars, as usual, created their own problems for the future.
    1. 0
      12 July 2026 22: 06
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Ideally, given the vast coastline, it needs not one or two, but at least five bases, from Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky to Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky. Clearly, everything couldn't be done at once; they had to start somewhere, and Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky was the right solution in terms of economic prospects.

      Precisely economic ones. However, if the fleet had been built at the pace initially planned by the MS, they would have been on schedule and would have had superior forces at Arthur by the end of 1903. To achieve this, it would have been necessary to order the ships from foreign shipyards that had already been planned, and even to invite foreign shipbuilders to St. Petersburg. If Witte hadn't cut plans and budgets, and hadn't played around with the newfangled French bottling at their shipyards, the battleships would have been laid down a year earlier, according to a simpler design for shipbuilding (the "improved Prince Potemkin" design with a 15,500 hp propulsion plant), and they would have been ready for the transfer to Arthur as early as the spring of 1903. Having received the entire promised order, Kramp would have also built at least two battleships and two heavy, fast armored cruisers by the deadline. He planned to build the same number for the Russian Empire and Lagan. All these ships would have been at Arthur by mid-1903 and would have enjoyed overwhelming superiority over the Japanese fleet. War would have become fundamentally impossible for them, and by mid-1905, troop and supply trains would have been flowing directly from the European part of the country along the completed KBM. And any attempt by Japanese landings would have been doomed. They simply had to carry out the previously adopted plans and utilize all available resources. Then Arthur, as a naval base, would have been considered only the first sign for the Pacific Fleet, after which other bases in Korea and Primorye would have been established. But for this to happen, at least something had to be done right.
      Or, realizing that they didn’t have time, withdraw the fleet from the attack, fight on land and return with the full force of the entire Pacific Fleet (two or three squadrons) and resolve the issue for sure.
      As a result (in reality), nothing was done, and the Russian Empire not only lost everything, but also simply ceased to exist 12 years later.
      1. 0
        18 July 2026 16: 35
        Quote: bayard
        If Witte had not cut the plans and budgets, and had not played with the new-fangled French bottlings at his shipyards, then the battleships would have been laid down a year earlier, according to a simpler shipbuilding project (according to the “improved Prince Potemkin” project with a 15,500 hp propulsion plant), and they would have been ready for the transition to Arthur already in the spring of 1903.

        Again, all you can think about is money... Would the metallurgical plants have time to supply that much steel??? And the armor factories - the armor??? And the guns, and the turrets??? And the mechanisms and boilers??? I'll let you in on a terrible secret... Guns don't shoot with money, and stormtroopers don't eat money and aren't equipped with money...
    2. 0
      15 July 2026 22: 35
      Saxarose, I don't think I meant any offense, but you didn't agree with anything written in the article.
      And fine if those were my words, but what about the quotes I've cited? For example, they say the port in Dalny isn't that valuable. At that time, sea freight would still be cheaper, and the Trans-Siberian Railway is described as "primarily of local, not global, significance."
      Building five bases is unrealistic; one would be better, but in a key location. While supplying the enemy is impossible, the assessment at the time suggests otherwise: "It's possible if the Russian fleet is not inferior to the Japanese." Petrov believes it is possible, because he writes that the DB base is in southern Korea.
      1. +1
        16 July 2026 09: 04
        Quote: Alexander Iloev
        For example, it says the port in Dalny isn't that valuable. At that time, sea freight would still be cheaper.

        The Dalny Railway was built as a tool for expansion into China and Southeast Asia as a whole. The Trans-Siberian Railway and the CER are also not so much a means of transporting cargo as a prerequisite for developing the territories they pass through. Land cut off from logistics is useless; as soon as a road is built, it immediately becomes a valuable resource. Therefore, comparing rail and sea transport is inappropriate.
  8. +1
    12 July 2026 16: 38
    Quote: Proxima
    Thanks to the author for a very detailed article! hi But Soviet naval analysts were a bit ahead of him. They took everything apart, piece by piece. No need for complications, it's all very simple. What Tsushima ports, what Cargodo? stop It's very simple. The entire Pacific Fleet was trapped in vulnerable Port Arthur, and only four cruisers remained in Vladivostok. But these cruisers nearly disrupted all Japanese logistics. negative If the bulk of the Pacific Fleet had been based in Vladivostok, the Russo-Japanese War would have been a resounding loss for the yuppies! good negative And this is not my opinion, I just warmly support it! good

    There is a novel by V. Pikul, "Cruisers," dedicated to the events surrounding the cruisers you describe.
    During that period, winter was difficult, as the bay froze over. The article notes the difficulties of the Pacific Fleet's basing.
    Now it’s simpler, as they say in Primorye: the latitude is Crimean, and the longitude is Kolyma.
    1. -1
      12 July 2026 18: 18
      Quite a channel was made in the ice.
      1. -2
        12 July 2026 22: 09
        Yeah, they blew it up and sawed it up. And that's just for four cruisers. What if the entire squadron had frozen into the ice?
        1. 0
          13 July 2026 08: 37
          So what? If you want to win the war, go and drink. In war, even sine can take on a value of 4. The Soviet Union invented many phrases for such situations. If you don't have the strength to attack standing, attack lying down. And so on.
          This is precisely the problem with the Russian Yamal-Nenets Autonomous Region. Instead of simply fighting and gritting their teeth, the leadership looked for reasons and excuses to avoid military service.
          Any Soviet idiot would have driven those Japanese off the continent with whatever force they had. Simply by sheer force of will and morale.
          1. -3
            13 July 2026 12: 26
            Quote: MCmaximus
            Any Soviet idiot would have driven those Japanese off the continent with the forces they had.

            The main idiot, or rather DyR@k, with panic attacks, hysterics, and a fear of exposing his subjects to even greater stupidity, was Nikolai Alexandrovich Romanov (the second). The birth of this unfortunate and flawed boy, and especially his ascension to the throne, was not just a disaster, but a civilizational catastrophe for the Russian Empire. The fish rotted from the head down. He simply refused to allow his generals and admirals to prepare the country, the Army, and the Navy for the inevitable war, stupidly calling the Japanese "yellow-faced monkeys," claiming that "they wouldn't dare," because "I don't want war, and therefore there won't be one." He prohibited the preemptive deployment of our forces in the region, did not provide funds for the construction of a fleet, for the production of high-quality shells ("you will ruin me with your shells, fight with what you have"), refused to purchase and establish production of machine guns in Russia ("there won't be enough ammunition for them"), prohibited the transfer of troops by sea from the European part of the Russian Empire to the Far East, did not provide funds for coastal artillery of Russian naval bases, for their fortification, for the deepening of the Arthur fairways for the squadron to sail in any weather (two more dredges were needed). And when in the spring of 1903 Chief of General Staff Kuropatkin, seeing that war was near and inevitable, and the squadron in Artur was fatally weak, proposed to withdraw the squadron in full force from Artur to Kronstadt and there wait for the completion and readiness of the ships of the 2nd squadron, so that after that, in full force, they could return by mid-1905. And before that, to fight the Japanese on land using the "Scythian war" method, wearing down the enemy, luring him deeper into the territory, stretching his communications, right up until the completion of the construction of the KBM (southern branch) and the concentration in the Far East of forces sufficient for an offensive.
            Quote: MCmaximus
            Simply on moral and volitional grounds.

            So Kuropatkin's small army fought against them, initially outnumbered by the superbly trained, armed, equipped, and supplied Japanese army by a factor of three or four. Without reliable supply lines—horsebacks across the muddy spring roads, with thousands of kilometers of foot marches for the newly mobilized divisions, untrained and lacking in combat coordination. As already noted above, the Passion-Bearer didn't allow them to mobilize and deploy them in advance, and didn't provide the funds for it. So they fought on a moral and volitional basis, maneuvering without engaging or giving a decisive battle, while simultaneously organizing suitable units of NEW RECRUITS, training them, and conducting combat coordination right on the spot. To fight with an army of THIS quality, you need... well, at least a year to prepare and train it, to turn the new recruits into soldiers. After all, the officers with these units and formations were called up from the reserves... these were ENTIRE divisions of new recruits. This is the kind of organizational and logistical hell the Passion-Bearer created for his Army in the Far East. Because he was afraid to send regular units from the European part... Although there was certainly no threat or problems with neighbors then. Simply panic attacks after whispers from someone he later called "My Personal Enemy."
            By mid-1905, the Russian Army had already achieved a sufficient level of combat readiness for offensive action; the KBM had been completed, Army supplies were returning to normal, the number of Russian troops in the Far East had reached 1 million, and all of Japan's prepared reserves had already been exhausted. By that time, Kuropatkin had a two-to-one superiority over the enemy; his armies were preparing for an offensive. And then DyR@k, on the throne, removed him from command and sent Witte to the United States to sign the capitulation (we called it a "shameful peace"). For such behavior, the Guard was obliged to hang DyR@k@ in Senate Square and bury him upside down. But this did not happen either. The First Russian Revolution of 1905-1907 happened.
            That's why there was such jubilation among the people when DyR@k@ was removed from power in February 1917... scoundrels and traitors who finished off/abolished the Empire. When such a Miracle Yudo is on the throne... it's not even fate, it's a sentence.
            But remember how they fought and developed the country under Stalin. "From bast shoes to space." So there's no point in blaming the Army. The same Russian people fought under Stalin, trained in academies and military schools by those same Russian generals and officers from the Russian Revolutionary War and World War I. But they fought differently! For at the head of the Army and the People stood the Lion.
            And not b@R@N .
            1. +1
              13 July 2026 16: 15
              Quote: bayard
              By mid-1905, the Russian Army had already acquired a sufficient level of combat readiness for offensive operations, the KBM was completed, the Army’s supplies were normalized, the number of Russian troops in the Far East reached 1 million bayonets, and all of Japan’s prepared reserves were already exhausted.

              Let me just remind you that the maximum capacity of the CER in 1905 was 20 pairs of trains per day. The average was 16-18 pairs.
              If I remember correctly, a “train” in those days was 40 carriages of “forty men or eight horses".
              And the army and navy have no other supply line.
              1. 0
                13 July 2026 18: 45
                What's been done to increase capacity? Have they bought more powerful locomotives? Have they started using two locomotives? Have they even started anything? Are they installing paired tracks to separate trains? Where possible? Or something else?
                They started boring tunnels on the Circum-Baikal Railway. Why didn't they build the railway where it is now? The location was well-known back then. The Circum-Baikal Railway isn't long. But it's not short either. Yes, the Tsar left us a monument to technical culture. But there it is – tunnel-bridge, tunnel-bridge. And so on, many, many times. Beautiful, of course, but...
                There was plenty of money in the country. But, like now, they were careful about it, lest, God forbid, inflation or the like. So, with a strong ruble, they squandered the empire.
                The war should have been fought from above, not shot at by crows.
                They needed steam locomotives—the Bolsheviks bought them from anyone they could find. They bought rails. Even excavators were used to build the railway from St. Petersburg to Moscow under Nicholas I. The Italians made money on the Circum-Baikal Railway, for example. Later, this railway became a constant bottleneck. That's why they abandoned it. And yes, the beginning was flooded.
                In fact, this later became known as General Lyautey's principle. If trees take 50 years to grow, then they should have been planted 50 years ago. Or right now.
                1. 0
                  14 July 2026 15: 57
                  Quote: MCmaximus
                  What's been done to increase capacity? Have they bought more powerful locomotives? Have they started using two locomotives? Have they even started anything? Are they installing paired tracks to separate trains? Where possible? Or something else?

                  They did everything there, everything possible, just look at the dates. The golden spike at the completion of the Trans-Siberian Railway was driven in the fall of 1903, the KBM was built until mid-1905. And this was a record time and pace for that time; no one built faster then, especially in such climate conditions and landscape. The Trans-Siberian Railway only became double-track under Stalin, and before that, they made do with organizing passing points along the route as often as possible. Well, and the speed of movement along the KBM is also limited for obvious reasons. But this supply line was already sufficient for Kuropatkin's army by the summer of 1905, he was already able to begin offensive operations. But before that, he couldn't - horse-drawn wagons on soggy soil cannot carry much for such an army, especially with a range of 1000+ km. He warned that the first year and a half would be filled with difficulties and setbacks, calling on the public to be patient and not expect quick victories. They would come, but in 1,5-2 years. So he dragged it out for those 1,5 years, maneuvering, not engaging in a decisive battle, only rearguard actions (and battles), luring and drawing the Japanese deeper into Manchuria, cutting them off from supply lines, wearing them down. Meanwhile, he gradually built up the strength of his army, with units and formations arriving through grueling foot marches. New recruits arrived who first needed training and combat coordination. They couldn't be committed to battle immediately. This was how he gained time to prepare these reinforcements. And at the same time, he didn't let the Japanese get anywhere near Harbin, our army's main base of support in Manchuria. He succeeded in all this; his army was ready to attack in the summer of 1905, already twice as numerous as the Japanese (at the beginning of the war, it had been three to four times inferior), supplies were being established, there was already enough ammunition, as well as other equipment. The Tsar removed Kuropatkin on the very eve of the offensive and sent Witte to the United States to sign the capitulation.
                  That's exactly how it was.
                  And exactly the same thing happened again in 1917, when the Russian Army had already gained strength and was ready for a general offensive. A Russian victory was terrifying and unacceptable for both Germany and the Entente allies. Therefore, they organized the February Revolution.
                  And after everything that followed, it was the Bolsheviks and the General Staff of the Republic of Ingushetia who saved us. Together. And they succeeded.
                  1. 0
                    14 July 2026 21: 40
                    Quote: bayard
                    And exactly the same thing happened again in 1917, when the Russian Army had already gained strength and readiness for a general offensive.

                    It was after the spectacular failure of 1916 that she suddenly gained strength!??
                    1. 0
                      15 July 2026 10: 28
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      It was after the spectacular failure of 1916 that she suddenly gained strength!??

                      Are you talking about the "Brussilov breakthrough"? Or about the German advance into the Baltics?
                      So, after the (truly) "phenomenal" retreat in 1915 (not on its own territory), Russia went on the strategic defensive and began a large-scale mobilization and deployment of the Army. The Allies were told that there would be no offensive actions until 1917; Russia would simply hold the front. The Army's offensive readiness date was set for mid-1917. Here, exactly the same story unfolded as with Kuropatkin: it's not enough to mobilize the army; it needs to be TRAINED and coordinated for combat. And this requires at least 1,5 - 2 years. Back then, officers weren't just called up from the reserves; even former students of civilian universities were hastily trained in short courses. By 1917, the Russian Army already had approximately 11 million bayonets and sabres. And most of it was sufficiently trained. The German army could not possibly withstand her offensive, and the German General Staff understood this perfectly well. Therefore, they gave money to Parvus and intensified their efforts to negotiate a separate peace with the Russian Empire. Through that same "Uncle Fredericks," the Minister of the Tsar's Court. But to no avail.

                      stop The minus is not mine, I corrected it.
                      1. 0
                        15 July 2026 20: 59
                        Quote: bayard
                        Are you talking about the "Brussilov breakthrough"?

                        Yes, including him. Aren't you aware that this "Brusilov Breakthrough" was only part of a general offensive? And the main attack was planned in the center. Where did it, that attack, fail miserably? Only Brusilov managed to break through the front, and even then only briefly.

                        Quote: bayard
                        In 1917, the Russian Army already had about 11 million bayonets and sabres.

                        And there were only 2 million rifles left for 1916. TWO! They were frantically scrambling, buying old junk like Berdan rifles, ordering three-line rifles and Winchesters from America, but all this was a drop in the ocean and wasn't expected before 1918. And then you suddenly write about a new offensive. These plans accelerated the army's collapse. The dire state of the troops and the inadequacy of all these plans were obvious to everyone.
                      2. -1
                        16 July 2026 02: 25
                        The very fact that Russia entered this war was inadequate; we had absolutely no need for it; we had no goals worth taking such risks for. And again, it all comes down to the cognitive abilities of the last Tsar. He was conned like a liar, blackmailed with debts by the French Rothschilds, and egged on by the British. And he jumped in like a chicken being plucked. And he destroyed the Empire. Because being a liar is fate. Unfortunately, it is the fate of the entire Empire.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        And there were only 2 million rifles left in 1916. TWO!

                        For what period in 1916? Rifles were ordered wherever available, primarily from the USA and even Japan. And the offensive was planned for the summer of 1917.
                        And the fact that he tore the country apart, yanked 11 million peasants from peasant life, and they were the breadwinners; who would support their families without them? But the main thing was that no one could really explain, and therefore understand, what we were fighting for? For the loans Witte took out, which not only got us into the war but also forced us to send Russian troops to "defend Paris"? Or for Gavrilo Princip, who wasn't even a Serb? Or for the Straits, which the peasants didn't care about?
                        So the men grumbled.
                        And in the capital and beyond, everyone has long known about the cognitive characteristics of the “sovereign”.
                        And here I'm no longer talking about the actual combat capability of the Army (although it was simply enormous, and perhaps it was precisely the "mass of soldiers" that they wanted to suppress the German machine guns). I'm talking about how this was perceived by the Germans, who were already running out of steam, and not only the army, but also the economy and the population. The Germans were probably the most tired of the war, and their resources were running out. They would have been highly unlikely to withstand our offensive. Especially since the Anglo-French were planning to attack at the same time. And the latter, seeing the exhausted Germans and the growing strength of the Russian Empire (11 million under arms is a very serious matter), decided to get rid of it and cope themselves. And they did.
                        So it turned out that we fought for God knows what, lost even though we were part of the winning coalition, and then our “allies” robbed us by bringing in interventionist troops from all sides.
                        This is how one DyR@k destroyed the country, caused the deaths of tens of millions of its citizens, and was glorified by the Russian Orthodox Church as a "passion-bearer." It's time to put an end to this obscurantism, but in the current reality, it is obscurantism that is destroying us.
                      3. +1
                        16 July 2026 09: 11
                        Quote: bayard
                        Rifles were ordered from wherever available, primarily from the United States and even Japan. The offensive was planned for the summer of 1917.

                        That's what I'm writing about. The men were plucked from the economy, herded into reserve regiments, and there was nothing to arm them with. Send them with sticks to machine guns? Even the dim-witted Tsarist generals understood that this was not serious. And the orders placed abroad (mainly in America) took a long time to fulfill. That's why I write that no significant revenues were expected before 18. Which didn't stop Headquarters from planning offensives in both 1916 (which failed miserably) and 1917 (which, fortunately, never took place).
                      4. 0
                        16 July 2026 15: 45
                        I remember they even suggested arming unarmed soldiers with halberds—axe handles mounted on long shafts. Out of desperation. Such was the quality of government back then. Apparently, this is what Peskov meant when he said, "We are building a state like the one under Nicholas II."
                        All they had to do was distance themselves from Europe and let them have their fill of fighting. Then the Black Sea Straits issue would have been easily resolved in the final stages of the war. They would have simply occupied Thrace and the Straits zone under the pretext of ensuring freedom of navigation. Without fighting, during that time they could have more or less built a fleet, rearmed the army, and profited from trade with both warring parties. That's exactly what was proposed on the eve of that war (back in late 1905) – rise while everyone else was crushing each other and falling. But... apparently, that wasn't possible with this tsar.
                      5. +1
                        16 July 2026 21: 03
                        Quote: bayard
                        All that was needed was to distance ourselves from Europe and let them fight their fill.

                        I agree here. Incidentally, that's exactly what the Americans did.
                      6. 0
                        16 July 2026 21: 57
                        It was easier for them - they were overseas.
                        But in his book, written nine years before the start of WWI, Sharapov wrote about precisely this. He described how, who, and with whom the coming war would occur, how Russia should behave to avoid getting involved, and how to take advantage of its position at the end of the conflict. He himself died in the autumn of 1911.
                      7. 0
                        29 July 2026 02: 59
                        Quote: bayard
                        It's exactly the same story as with Kuropatkin - it's not enough to mobilize the army, it needs to be TRAINED and coordinated. And that will take at least 1,5 to 2 years.

                        Well, at least now I know for sure that you didn’t serve in the Army...
                      8. -2
                        29 July 2026 03: 19
                        What a persistent little troll.
                        Young man, you are uninteresting. You are being ignored.
              2. -3
                13 July 2026 18: 47
                Quote: Alexey RA
                The maximum capacity of the CER in 1905 was 20 pairs of trains per day. The average was 16-18 pairs.
                If I remember correctly, a “train” in those days was 40 carriages with “forty people or eight horses” each.

                And these capabilities were already sufficient for the normal supply of the Army. Because there were already at least 1 million bayonets and sabres in the theater of military operations, so it wasn't "little soldiers" and "horses" that were transported in wagons then, but mainly shells, other ammunition, equipment, and supplies. This was already sufficient. Resources were being accumulated for the offensive and the final preparations of the troops were underway.
                The CER's capacity could have been increased by increasing the number of sidings, and the necessary rails, switches, and other equipment could have been delivered to the railway from the European part. These were already working issues; the main task—reliable rail service—was solved. The million-strong army was regularly supplied, its strength grew, and so did its training.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                And the army and navy have no other supply line.

                By that time, the Tsar and his "vizier" had already destroyed the fleet, but this supply line was already quite sufficient for the army. By the summer of 1905, the Japanese already had half the manpower and no one to replace their losses—their prepared reserves were exhausted. Their supplies also came primarily by horse-drawn carts or even Chinese porters, and the part of the railway they had was also single-track with minimal sidings and limited rolling stock. All the Japanese supply advantages evaporated. They faced either complete defeat or flight with rearguard actions. No chance of success. But the USA intervened (an ultimatum from their president), and the foolish Tsar chickened out and sent Witte to sign the capitulation, removing Kuropatkin in the process, so as not to inadvertently defeat the Japanese.
                Another thing is that without the fleet we no longer needed Arthur.
                But if Rozhdestvensky had remained in Cam Ranh to await the results of Kuropatkin's offensive, that would have been a completely different matter. And even in the event of negotiations, his two squadrons looming from the south would have been a very serious argument. But it happened as it happened – the Tsar lost his nerve. And capitulated. And there's no need to look for anyone else to blame. This unfortunate Passion-Bearer destroyed and ruined EVERYTHING he touched. And in the end, he ruined the Empire, getting himself embroiled in WWI.
            2. +1
              13 July 2026 16: 17
              And Kuropatkin lost to the Japanese, despite having complete superiority
              1. -3
                13 July 2026 18: 29
                The stupid Tsar lost the war because of his stupidity and cowardice. He chickened out because of the US President's ultimatum (we've heard about it), and to ensure that his army, which was already ready to attack and win, was stopped, he REMOVED Kuropatkin and sent his spy Witte to the US to sign the capitulation.
                And don't confuse warm with soft. Even in that battle in which Kuropatkin supposedly had superiority in forces (in reality, it was roughly equal – slightly more manpower, slightly less artillery and machine guns), Kuropatkin decided not to give a decisive battle (he had 500 against the same number of the Japanese) and retreated. Within six months, he had a million-strong army and supplies were established. That's when he was removed from command, so that he wouldn't interfere with the capitulation with his victories. For they were already inevitable, the Army's supplies were established and the combat training of new recruits was in full swing. The Japanese no longer dared to attack. All their prepared reserves were exhausted, supply was becoming increasingly difficult, they could not increase their numbers, but Kuropatkin's forces were growing and were supplied better and faster. The Army already had ample ammunition. And a huge superiority in cavalry, which had already become accustomed to the unfamiliar/uncharted region. Don't read the tabloid ditties of the time; study the logistics, statistics, and learn how long it takes to turn a horde of recruits into a full-fledged unit (at least a division). Pay attention not only to the numbers, but also to the dates, statistics, and the rate of supply by horse-drawn wagon trains over a distance of over 1000 km, as it was before the completion and launch of the KBM. Even after the defeat of the 2nd and 3rd-3rd squadrons (Tsushima), orchestrated by the "vizier" and the foolish tsar, the Russian Army was already prepared not only to defeat the Japanese army, but even by cutting it off from supplies and retreat routes, completely destroy it or capture it in the steppes of Manchuria, completely clearing all of Manchuria. And Korea from Japanese troops. The strength, quality of troops, and supplies were more than sufficient for this. What was missing was a competent tsar on the throne who at least wouldn't interfere with the work of professionals... and who had at least some understanding of people, so as not to later kick himself for "trusting a scoundrel" and not to title Rothschild-Witte "My Personal Enemy."
        2. 0
          17 July 2026 15: 40
          Quote: bayard
          Yeah, they blew it up and sawed it up. And that's just for four cruisers. What if the entire squadron had frozen into the ice?

          So what??? Build 2-3-4 icebreakers, they cost pennies...
    2. 0
      14 July 2026 06: 37
      Lynx200. Please read the article cited in the Vladivostok section. It suggests that, given the railway's location in Manchuria, Vladivostok is much more vulnerable than Port Arthur. The article is titled something like "What Will Happen if the Rapid Landing of Japanese Troops Is Not Prevented"—that's the exact title. It was written by a modern researcher and taken from a website about the Russian Navy. Furthermore, all modern researchers and historians unanimously agree that Port Arthur was a failure, but all amateurs are convinced it was the only alternative. This was especially true seven years ago, with the first version of this article. I was told that anyone who thinks Port Arthur is... bad is... a three-story, almost obscene sentence. So, writing it again is simply popularization.
  9. +3
    12 July 2026 18: 17
    From a trade perspective, the CER, Dalny, and Port Arthur were the right choice. Defending them was difficult. Therefore, effective diplomacy was needed while there was no superior force. Nikola II had zero sense for this. A base in Korea was a pious aspiration. Japan considered Korea its own in exchange for Liaodong. If a war started over timber, then it would have started over Mozampo even more so. And the ease of defending the islands is a myth. Food and ammunition would run out, and that's it.
    The blockade of Vladivostok and the Japanese landing there are nonsense. It's far from the main theater of operations and of no use to the Japanese. It's a long way for the Japanese to travel there, and it's also a long way for our forces to intercept Japanese shipping and so on.
    There's only one conclusion: there was no point in provoking the Japanese. We had nothing in the Far East or Siberia back then. No roads, no population, no industry. Until we developed everything, we shouldn't have shown off.
    The Emperor and his entourage had a primitive mindset. They had absolutely no idea what they were doing.
    1. -1
      12 July 2026 22: 23
      Quote: MCmaximus
      There was no point in provoking the Japanese. We had nothing in the Far East or Siberia back then. No roads, no population, no industry. Until we developed everything, we shouldn't have shown off.

      This was the original plan: no naval bases or trading ports in the "warm seas" until we built and equipped the Trans-Siberian Railway, the KBM, and the CER (which no one had planned to build before Arthur). Alexander III's planners were interested in Northern Manchuria. Witte imposed and forced through Port Arthur and the Kwantung Peninsula with his unilateral decision. At court, in the General Staff and the Military Staff, almost everyone was categorically against it. This was a challenge not only and not so much to Japan as to England, and England accepted the challenge and began preparing Japan for war. As a result of the disagreements that arose on this (but not only) issue, all of Alexander III's former associates were dismissed and removed from court. From mid-1898, Rothschild-Witte seized power in the Empire and over the Tsar. Everything that happened to the Empire subsequently was entirely his work, his merit, and his fault. By the time even the stupid Tsar, terrified of his own stupidity, realized how this scoundrel had tricked him, it was too late. All that remained was to label him "My Personal Enemy" and send him back to Europe in peace... for the debts of the Russian Empire to the head of his clan, after the lost RYAV, had become so great that executing or sending to hard labor a member of the family of its main creditor was utterly impossible. And so this poor fellow "reigned" until he reached the basement of engineer Ipatiev's house.
      1. -1
        13 July 2026 08: 41
        But Witte didn't go to Korea to chop wood. With the CER, Port Arthur, and Dalny, it was perfectly possible to live with the Japanese. Or, to delay the war as long as possible, a very promising place in peacetime was China. Of course, that was it. But diplomacy could have solved a lot. Mao himself didn't even care that our people were in Port Arthur. But Stalin had already begun preparing Arthur for the handover. He could have sat there for his 25 years.
        1. -3
          13 July 2026 13: 03
          Quote: MCmaximus
          But it wasn’t Witte who went to Korea to chop wood.

          NO! It wasn't Witte's idea at all (he OBSTACLED it in every way). And our "PMCs" weren't there to "cut firewood," but were trying AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE (the General Staff and a number of Russian entrepreneurs) to organize a defensive line on the mountain passes of Korea, in order to prevent the Japanese from passing through Korea to Manchuria and Primorye. They didn't make it!
          Why did you start with such an exotic thing (PMC)?
          Because the Tsar wouldn't allow the transfer of enough troops to even organize a defense of the vast mandated territories (they weren't even ours). And when they suggested to him, "Well, let's at least do it this way, under the guise of logging, we'll organize barriers there from the hired militia"... do you know what he (the Tsar) replied?
          "I'm not against it, you can try, but I won't give you any money for it. Do it at your own expense!" That's why they didn't succeed, because "at their own expense" and not with the regular army, but with private military contractors, they tried to save Russia from disaster.
          DyR@k on the throne, it's not even Fate, it's a Sentence. Despite such idiocy and the machinations of Rothschild-Witte, Russian patriots (Slavophiles, the "Sharapov group"), the General Staff and the Military Staff tried their best to save the situation or at least reduce the scale of the catastrophe. The courage and heroism of Arthur's defenders, the desperate ingenuity and skillful maneuvering (despite all the libel) of Kuropatkin minimized Russia's damage in this war. The Passion-Bearer accumulated all the major defeats and all the shame from them in the war at sea - he ruined, lost the entire fleet. For a whole complex of reasons - forcing it to fight constantly in the minority, on motley and unevenly speeding ships, with poor, outdated shells, driving the fleet piecemeal from trap to trap. In this case, Niki was simply a brainless rag doll in the hands of the real Karabas-Barabas - Rothschild-Witte, but this does not absolve the guilt of the one in whose name all this was done.
          Quote: MCmaximus
          Stalin had already begun preparing Artur for the transfer. She could have sat there for her 25 years.

          That's a lie. Stalin had no intention of doing that. But he wasn't in any rush to invest heavily in it either—the country lay in ruins after WWII, and a new war was looming. And the Chinese had no intention of renewing the lease after it expired. Khrushchev, on orders from England, ordered Arthur to abandon it overnight. He ordered a lot of things abandoned back then. In a state of emergency and hysteria (there were two assassination attempts on him in a row after the ultimatum, both times they tried to blow up the cruiser he was on at the time. Both times by planting magnetic mines under the bottom with combat swimmers. Both times he got away with it, but after the second he went into complete hysterics. Don't confuse Stalin's plans with the actions of this ghoul. Stalin wasn't going to just give up Arthur. But the USSR Navy was just beginning to build back then, after WWII, there simply wasn't much to base there. A few destroyers and a naval aviation regiment (torpedo bombers). Stalin then began building a tunnel to Sakhalin, planning to thoroughly develop the Far East. But all this was subject to amendments and taking into account the possibility of a new war with the USA, England, and NATO.
          1. 0
            13 July 2026 16: 18
            Arthur's transfer began under Stalin. Khrushchev merely signed off.
            1. -1
              13 July 2026 19: 01
              Stalin didn't consider Arthur a valuable asset, but he had no intention of abandoning it prematurely. Don't get confused, and don't confuse others. Khrushchev didn't just order it abandoned; he abandoned all the material assets, supplies, and weapons there. Find out how it really happened. The order to abandon Kwantung caught everyone there by surprise. Khrushchev left a lot of things behind, not just Arthur; remember the ships abandoned in Indonesia.
              1. 0
                13 July 2026 19: 10
                I'm not trying to confuse anyone. I've read about it. Everything is laid out there by time. If you want to believe in fairy tales, go ahead. I can't help you with that.
    2. 0
      14 July 2026 13: 49
      MsMahius, you write that “from a trade point of view… you were correct.”
      There's a direct quote in the article under this topic, right below the diagram showing the distance from Port Arthur to Vladivostok. This is a conclusion from those years, and it concerns trade specifically. You apparently disagree with it.
      But then, in military affairs, one cannot rely on trade interests—it's a recipe for defeat. "One bird, one bird," and one bird, and you can't mix them. According to the quote in the article, the significance of Dalny, which "supposedly will make Russia rich," is greatly exaggerated. This is supported by the article "Port Arthur as a Model of Russian Corruption," cited in the bibliography, from which I took two lengthy quotes.
  10. +1
    12 July 2026 19: 40
    It started out as an interesting article, but ended with tales of stolen battleships, a global conspiracy, and non-scientific fiction about an alliance with Germany.
    There was no successful strategy for Russia in the Pacific as long as the Triple Alliance existed in Europe, period.
    If Japan had suddenly been able to win, it could have led to an alliance between Britain and Germany.
    1. +1
      13 July 2026 11: 14
      Quote: Cartalon
      It started as an interesting article, but ended up as a fairy tale.

      I agree.
      There was no successful strategy for Russia in the Pacific as long as the Triple Alliance existed in Europe, period.

      It would have been better to seriously address the issue of the Straits. We needed them much more. But that's my opinion, as an amateur.
      If Japan had suddenly been able to win, it could have led to an alliance between Britain and Germany.
      I've also thought about this a couple of times: what if we had won? What then?
    2. -3
      13 July 2026 15: 46
      Quote: Cartalon
      An interesting article, but it ended with fairy tales about stolen battleships, a global conspiracy, and not science fiction about an alliance with Germany.

      You really haven't heard about Wilhelm's proposals to Nicholas for this alliance? Seriously? And that the Kaiser needed this alliance specifically in the Far East, to hold on to his new possessions in Jindao? And that he was the one who insistently advised the incompetent Nicholas to "build as many ships as possible for the Far East" in order to become the dominant power there? Wilhelm, in fact, ardently supported Russian expansion in the Far East and was counting on Russia's alliance and support in that region. Where did you get this idea of ​​"fantasy" when a German dynasty rules in the Russian Empire and at least a quarter of the nobility are German or have German roots? He and Nicky were cousins, and "Uncle Fredericks" was a minister of the royal court. We had no hostility towards the Germans back then, and no persistent antagonisms. All of this emerged only after two consecutive world wars, in which we fought in opposing coalitions. At that time, the Russian Empire was planning to temporarily withdraw from European affairs and focus on its own Far East, its exploration and development. This was preceded by a considerable period of preparation, assessments, calculations, and planning. This required considerable resources, but the expected return was enormous – comparable to the development of the "Wild West" (access to the western/Pacific coast) of the United States. All of this was conceived and prepared long before the lease of Port Arthur. Moreover, the "access to the warm seas" itself was planned for a later period, only after the construction and full development of the Trans-Siberian Railway, the KBM, and the CER. The Russian Empire was primarily interested in Manchuria, whose climate, landscape, and soils were very similar to our lands in the "middle belt" (in the north) and Ukraine, Kuban, and Stavropol in the south. Northern Manchuria alone was an area two or three times the size of France. This created the conditions and made it possible for our peasants to resettle there. Manchuria was supposed to ensure food autonomy for our entire Far East and Southern Siberia, since the lands and climate north of the Amur River did not allow for normal agriculture or the feeding of any significant population in the region. Food could not be transported that far by sea or rail. This was a truly comprehensive program for the development of the Far East region. There was no talk of Korea, Kwantung, or Port Arthur back then. This could have been thought about closer to 1920, when Manchuria would already be populated (there was a VERY small population there - the Manchus, and the Manchu dynasty did not allow the Chinese there) and there would be a surplus of goods for foreign trade.
      Arthur, by his own decision, leased Witte. That's when all this chaos began. The Russian Empire was simply unprepared for this, neither in terms of logistics, nor in the composition of its navy, nor in the capabilities of its own industry. If the former comrades of his father (Alexander III) had remained at court and among the young Tsar's advisers (he remained youthful even until his death), then, even in a rush job and in a rush, the Russian Empire would have managed to build a sufficiently powerful navy (with guaranteed superiority over the Japanese), transfer more or less sufficient ground forces in advance by sea and on foot, and would have been able to correctly, competently, and successfully respond to all the current challenges and surprises of that war. But these people were removed from court, so the Russian Empire was doomed from the moment the "Sharapov group" lost its influence with the Tsar.
      An alliance with Germany was possible; the Kaiser strongly desired it and urged the Tsar to it, but Witte was on guard, and a rapprochement with Germany, let alone an alliance, was thwarted (the French would be offended). The author laid everything out correctly, and options for placing a Pacific Fleet base in Korea were discussed, and no one liked Artur (a very problematic base in many ways), but I personally am not ready to agree with the wisdom of building a base in Korea. Not least because it is simply impossible to connect a railway to this base before the start of the Russian Nuclear War. It would have been far more practical to choose Dalny as such a base, and to use Artur as a base for the light forces of the fleet (destroyers, gunboats, light cruisers). Until Artur was completely put in order in terms of fairways, clearing the inner basin. Far more important was the construction of the fleet itself. And if they did not meet the deadline, the squadron had to be withdrawn and fight on land until the completed ships of the 2nd Squadron were ready and both squadrons were ready to return with overwhelming force, with the immediate seizure of supremacy at sea. Only then could the question of new naval bases in Korea arise, as support bases for control of the Tsushima Strait and for operations against Japan itself.
      Japan had a chance of defeating the Baltic Fleet alone only by committing it to the war piecemeal. This is precisely what was ensured. The combined forces of the fleet built in the Baltic (plus foreign-built ships) overwhelmed the entire Japanese fleet like a bull over a sheep. But to achieve this, it was necessary to maintain the naval forces in a single fist. And if they couldn't assemble these forces in Artur, the squadron would return to Kronstadt and then advance from there with all its combined forces. This was proposed by Kuropatkin (Chief of the General Staff) in the spring of 1903. He was not allowed to do so.
      Just as they did not allow the transfer of troops by sea.
      That's all the reasons.
      DyR@k on the throne is not even fate, it is a Sentence.
      1. +1
        13 July 2026 15: 53
        Do you really think Wilhelm II's words had any value? Do you really think he had any other goals besides destroying the Franco-Russian alliance, so he could subsequently crush both countries individually?
        1. -2
          13 July 2026 16: 23
          He was not as crazy as you portray him.
          Destroy the Franco-Russian alliance?
          Yes. And what German wouldn't want that? They have had a long-standing "high relationship" with the Frogmen. But dreaming of a war on two fronts?
          Besides, where would France have gone/run away if Niki and Wilhelm had concluded such an alliance (the Far Eastern one!)? All in tears, wringing their hands? To England?
          So she came running to her after the defeat of the Russian Empire in the Russian Empire. And what would Wilhelm have gained from that? The alliance collapsed, France fled... to England, which was much stronger at sea and richer (thanks to maritime trade). Did he win? Or was he screwed? When did these two then drag/lured Russia into their Entente? He had only France as an enemy and Russia as a partner, and here it is – a solid coalition, and everyone is against him. A dream come true, idiot?
          And if stupid, stupid Nikki agreed to such an alliance... Would France run away? Really? England doesn't have a land army to save the frogs. Especially when the Germans and Russians are in cahoots. The Germans don't have to sail to France - they'll march across it on foot to the accompaniment of a harmonica and that's it. If you ran away from Russia and it doesn't stop its ally. Do you understand? France would be forced to adhere to this alliance willy-nilly - for the sake of security. And on the contrary, this wouldn't burden Russia at all, but on the contrary - the influence of one ally would be balanced by the influence of another. Whenever the French offered something nasty, you could answer "this will offend the Germans" and thus avoid the intrusive proposals. And exactly the opposite. And solve all your problems using not only your own resources, but also the capabilities of your allies. So, for the Industrialization, planned back then, we need a lot of machine tools, equipment, production lines. And here we are, the suppliers of all this. Do we need to quickly build a fleet for the Far East? The Allies are helping with their shipyards again. Do we need to solve the problem of the Black Sea Straits? Well, no one will object to this either - we will resolve it amicably so that all interests are respected, and that will be it. And we will send England and its desires far away. And no Entente will be possible. And England without France in Europe is nothing at all... just an island in the north. A completely different configuration. But it is England that is losing in it. So it started the game of smashing all these plans. And it succeeded.
          1. +1
            13 July 2026 16: 45
            Wilhelm, a triple invalid whose beloved mother had also broken his psyche, was just that crazy, and then there was the German General Staff, who were sure that they had won the war, and not some Bismarck, and for whom it would be a piece of cake to start a war against all their neighbors and even drag Britain into it, because that's what our plan required.
            As for the rest of your reasoning, that's on Author Today, where even more intricate schemes are at work. I was particularly pleased with the "if you want the straits, take the straits" part. Bismarck was willing to give Russia the straits, but he would have taken a good price for them, most likely in the form of eliminating France as a significant military force, after which Russia would become a German protectorate, and Wilhelm himself would have gladly taken the straits.
          2. 0
            13 July 2026 17: 15
            Quote: bayard
            For the Industrialization that was planned back then, we need a lot of machines, equipment, and production lines. And here are our suppliers of all this

            My opinion is that you're mistaken on this issue. Let's recall the Customs War: Russia is trying to develop industry, but Germany is flooding the Russian market with its cheap, high-quality goods (hello, China, only better). We're trying to impose tariffs, and in response, Germany is raising tariffs on Russian grain, etc.
            Well, it wasn't in the Germans' interests for the Russians to develop their own industry. They needed a market, not a competitor. And this is one of the reasons why I don't take seriously the dreams and hopes of many to "sit out" WWI. After the defeat of the Franks, we would have 100% been invited to a serious discussion.
            Need to solve the Black Sea Straits problem? No one will object here either – we'll settle it amicably so everyone's interests are respected, and that's it.

            Oh, I wish I could taste some honey through your lips)
            And let's send England and its desires far away.

            To send the only true superpower of its time packing, you'd have to have some seriously strong... muscles. I mean muscles.
            1. -3
              13 July 2026 20: 01
              Quote: Trapper7
              Let's remember the Customs War - Russia is trying to develop its industrial base, but Germany is flooding the Russian market with its cheap and high-quality goods.

              And it all ended with the German industrialists being told (Alexander-3) "If you want to trade in Russia, open your enterprises here." And they did start opening them in Russia. But it was then that the decision about Industrialization was made. And they were going to pay for the supplies under it not with grain (unique), but with what they had been paying for in the 30s, 40s and 50s - counter-deliveries of Russian fur. Fur farms as an entire industry began to develop precisely then.
              Quote: Trapper7
              I don't take seriously the dreams and hopes of many to "sit out" WWI. After the defeat of the Franks, we would 100% have been invited to a serious discussion.

              What about the "all-powerful and sole superpower" England? Wouldn't it have saved its friend France from destruction?
              And why, if it's so all-powerful and such a superpower with "muscles of steel" (I'm talking about muscles too). They should have been practicing in WWI to see who has the most powerful muscles. And Russia would have been:
              - did not suffer losses,
              - would have received time for rearmament (she again started later than everyone else) and the deployment of the Army, and the completion of the ships that had just been laid down,
              - would continue to trade freely and very profitably with all parties to the conflict, maintaining armed neutrality.
              Germany certainly wouldn't have decided to fight two fronts on its own, and we had time to prepare for a possible war. Without fighting. Without incurring unnecessary costs. With a free choice of which side to support. And it wouldn't necessarily have been the side of defeated France and the age-old enemy of the Russian Empire, England. And why not solve our own problems with the straits when the English, Franks, and Germans are exhausted to the point of astonishment? Simply under the pretext of ensuring freedom of navigation. Because while everyone else is fighting, trade is also necessary. Perhaps even by somehow cunningly faking it, through Greece, Bulgaria. Do you really think the Russian Empire absolutely had to get involved in this unnecessary war?
              And for what purpose? What interest did we have? The Straits? Seriously?
              For these "straits," the mobilized Russian peasants were ready to skin the Tsar alive. Why do they need war? Who attacked Russia? Who threatened it?
              Ah, stand up for Serbia?
              So, those who wanted to intercede should open a corridor for volunteer combatants, so that everyone can satisfy their desires. What does Russia have to do with this? The Austrians killed their heir in Serbia, and he wasn't even a Serb at all, but... a representative of the most international of nationalities. Well, let them sort it out.
              France is coming there with its ultimatums?
              Well, that's France's business, since it hasn't fought for a long time.
              Did Germany stand up for Austria?
              So let them fight. Let them have fun and be happy. This could have been a great blessing for Russia, when all of Europe is fighting, even England is fighting... with its land army! Well, that's great.
              That is, it doesn't matter, but it's interesting to watch. Much like Trump's Persian races now. And we have our own things to do. The economy needs to be developed, industry needs to be boosted. Foreign trade, since there is such a demand, can make a fortune. And they will sell you everything for your goods: machines, equipment, and technology. Because war consumes a lot. And get rich - like the USA in both wars.
              And strengthen the army, deploy it (the war is still going on nearby), but without mobilization, simply by expanding recruitment, deploying units to full strength, but calmly, in a working order. Rebuilding and developing our industry, selling our grain and other goods at a high price - at wartime prices, and to both sides of the conflict. And let the French not be shy about mobilization, raking in everyone in a row, and not begging for "Russian troops to save Paris." And let the British not be shy - let them strain themselves with their entire empire. They barely survived WWI and almost went bankrupt (after WWII, they did), and otherwise, you see, they could have dealt with it in one war.
              And then they could have gone and supported Germany when it was on its last legs. If only they'd managed to build a navy, not just by fighting, but by itself. You never know, the queen of the seas would have gone belly up at the end of the conflict. It's not at all necessary, but why not? They've already renegotiated with the US: "You and we are on the sidelines for now, so let's not fight each other, but together, and against whoever offers the most trophies and reparations." And who are these rich people? Who has the most colonies and definitely has something to profit from there? England? France? fellow So let's use their inheritance to help the Germans. It's much more fun to fight for trophies and generous booty. What can you expect from that Germany? But from these ones, very much so.
              And it's quite possible that they would have come to an agreement. Roosevelt and Stalin definitely came to an agreement. At England's expense. Even though they fought on the same side. And back then, it would have been even more interesting.
              And it would have been easier with the straits. Turkey, as Germany's ally, was being tormented by the English and Franks back then. And we would have offered to help the Ottomans at the end. Just give them the straits with Thrace, even under a protectorate. And we will help.
              When everyone is fighting, and you stand aside and trade – that's good. That's right. It means the country's leadership cares about its country and its people, knows how to profit where everyone else is losing, and receive everything it's long wanted with gratitude from those who give. That's the right policy. This is exactly the policy Sharapov proposed long before WWI, back in 1905-1907 (he died in the fall of 1911 as a result of an assassination attempt). Read his works; they are quite entertaining. And instructive. Even now.
              Quote: Trapper7
              Oh, I wish I could taste some honey through your lips.

              Honey is tight these days. "Like under Nicholas II." What was built, that's what we built. I hope you remember the result of the previous reign.
    3. 0
      15 July 2026 19: 04
      Cartalion: My article was written seven years ago. The beginning simply outlined the opinions of admirals, a military theorist, and a modern historian.
      But the same people who are arguing with me now, and some others, wrote that the author has no idea, that it will not be possible to supply the squadron, that it will be shot at by German howitzers in Kargod, and even before that it will be sunk by Japanese destroyers, and I had to get into the details and clarify this for myself, which is what I have set out.
      I could simply say: “Since the military theorist Petrov M.A., who is highly valued, believes that
      1) Port Arthur was unsuitable.
      2) the naval base had to be moved to the south of Korea
      3) it was possible to supply and, accordingly, protect it in the south of Korea,
      then personally I am forced to agree with him.
      And his opinion is higher for me than the opinion of those who did not sail, were not officers before the revolution, and were not military theorists.
      If Dubasov, Makarov, and Tyrtov thought the same way even earlier, then what's the point? I could have written it like this.
      But the questions would remain, and they would be addressed not to Petrov, but to me.
      Moreover, for me the opinions of Dubasov, Makarov and Tyrtov are important, but some readers began to pick them apart, for example, Dubasov turned out to be the “tsar’s bloody satrap”, and Petrov, accordingly, the “red bastard”.
      I answered these questions to the best of my ability. You can think for yourself how Dubasov, Makarov, and Tyrtov planned to supply the fleet in southern Korea. I don't claim that my version is the most correct. For me, it's more important to convey the opinions of Petrov and the aforementioned admirals.
  11. +2
    13 July 2026 09: 25
    Quote: Saxahorse
    It is unclear why the Kuril Islands and Tsushima were given to the Japanese; our tsars, as usual, created problems for themselves for the future.


    As usual, they lacked the necessary hindsight and a laptop with direct internet access, so they considered these points secondary, to be traded off against similar points from their opponent during diplomatic negotiations.
    1. 0
      14 July 2026 21: 51
      Quote: deddem
      As usual, they didn't have hindsight or a laptop.

      Without any laptops, a simple paper map shows that these islands block access to the ocean from Primorye. So, on one side, we've been fighting for 200 years over the straits into the Black Sea, while on the other, the empire is generously handing out straits. fool
  12. +2
    13 July 2026 11: 19
    Kargodó Bay had two outlets. The main one was 5 km wide and about 20 meters deep, making it impossible to block.

    But controlling such a wide passage at night was also quite difficult. A breakthrough by Japanese destroyers was entirely possible.
    And how many forces and troops would be needed for a nearly all-round defense? The Polish-Afghan Army had the advantage in this regard, but they couldn't defend it either. Personally, I think southern Korea is a utopia and pure science fiction.
    1. 0
      13 July 2026 15: 55
      This was one of the options under consideration at the time. It was also far from optimal, but the author took the time to consider it. The key wasn't "where to place a base," but WHAT to place in that base. Is there a navy strong enough to reliably outmatch the Japanese? If such a navy exists, then even if it's based in Artur or Dalny, it would only need to capture a few Korean ports and make them its operational bases. If its forces are insufficient, even if you base it in Tsushima itself, it will still be blockaded and defeated.
      As the saying goes, "First things first, first things first - battleships, and then the bells and whistles." The Russian Empire's fleet wasn't built in a timely manner, so there simply couldn't have been any other outcome.
    2. +1
      16 July 2026 19: 23
      Trapper, I didn't notice your message.
      I wrote about this in the article. 5 km—at sea, in this war, battles were fought from even greater distances. Is 1 cable 185 meters? From what cables did naval battles take place?
      And the coastal defenses were manned by naval guns. I looked, and even a 75mm gun seemed to have a range of 5 kilometers, though not very accurate.
      120mm and 150mm are perfectly fine. Destroyers don't have armor.
      On the Electric Cliff, for example, there are 254-mm guns. I wrote about the night attack in my article. I repeat, I'm not taking anything from myself.
      You can think whatever you want about me, but please don’t think that Dubasov or M.A. Petrov are amateurs.
      1. +1
        16 July 2026 19: 58
        Trapper: Also, in wartime, part of the 5-kilometer strait would likely be mined, leaving a narrower, easier-to-control passage. Patrolling it is another option, but mining is easier.
  13. 0
    13 July 2026 22: 54
    The Russo-Japanese War has one crucial similarity with the Central Military District: the country's leadership's adherence to foreign rules. The army wasn't fighting, but trying to please global public opinion. And then it was too late.
  14. +2
    14 July 2026 10: 22
    At the time, references to Mozampo and Cargodo often meant both, due to their proximity. It would be better to locate the naval base directly on the island.

    An impregnable fortress and a jewel in the crown British Russian Empire. I've seen somewhere in those parts before, the main naval base on an island captured by the Japanese... smile
    1. 0
      14 July 2026 11: 46
      All coincidences are coincidental. No historical parallels.
  15. 0
    14 July 2026 11: 59
    In fact, the Author is great!
    It's just a shame the author didn't consider the real advantages of Port Arthur itself. They were there (railroad communications, a dock, and relative ease of defense)—otherwise, it wouldn't have been chosen.
    And again, the navy's ability to operate in the Yellow Sea, far from the potential enemy's main bases. And the "walking across Korea" aspect has already been discussed.
    1. +2
      14 July 2026 14: 51
      Quote: Trapper7
      It’s just a pity that the Author didn’t consider the real merits of Port Arthur itself.

      Petrov and his ilk didn't write about them like that. And he has no thoughts of his own. request
    2. 0
      16 July 2026 19: 31
      Thanks, Trapper, but they'll write about it without me. Besides, it's like saying, "The honey is good, but there's just one problem: there's a fly in the ointment. Would you like to eat it?"
      One drawback spoils all the advantages.
      There is a quote from strategic games that says it is inconvenient for defense and puts the fleet in a worse position against the enemy.
      The bibliography contains the exact name of the resource; a link was previously assumed.
      Have you read Dubasov's report? Where are the advantages?
  16. +1
    14 July 2026 18: 23
    Quote: Alexander Iloev
    Lynx200. Please read the article in the Vladivostok section. It says that, provided that
    ......

    I was told that anyone who thinks Port Arthur is... bad is... a three-story swear word. So, writing about it again is just popularization.

    But did I ever downplay the role of Port Arthur for the Pacific Fleet of the Russian Empire?!
    Any port must have the infrastructure for successful operation and logistical support, as well as all-weather capability (year-round navigation); as of 1905, the Vladivostok-Khabarovsk railway line was functioning.
    The Civil War demonstrated that from Siberia to Primorye, all major military operations, so-called fronts, and troop movements were carried out along the Trans-Siberian Railway. Similarly, in Korea and Manchuria, all troop movements were carried along railway lines...

    I was once in Dalian, but I didn’t manage to get to the Lushun region (Port Arthur). My paternal great-great-grandfather settled in Siberia (Novonikolaevsk) after the Russo-Japanese War, and my maternal grandfather took part in the naval landing during the liberation of Korea.
    1. 0
      16 July 2026 19: 40
      Lynx, did you read the criticism of Port Arthur in the article? If you think I made it up, check it out, including in my bibliography. Just because your ancestor fought at Port Arthur doesn't automatically mean it's a good position. The article assesses it as a position. A railway through foreign territory is a strategic vulnerability.
      I think those who see something in an article that doesn't align with their opinion simply skip it. And so they write their own criticism.
  17. +2
    15 July 2026 11: 24
    The funniest thing is that when they write about the Port Arthur base in relation to the Russian Empire, this base becomes a collection of only shortcomings, one of the main reasons for losing the war and, in general, why the damned tsarist regime took it in the first place.
    But it's worth moving forward half a century - and immediately for abandoning the same base, one of our general secretaries is practically demanded to be crucified. laughing
    1. +1
      15 July 2026 13: 04
      It was a bad base, imperialist. And inconvenient for the navy. In a word, it was disgusting.
      And then it became good - anti-capitalist, quite necessary, essential and useful. feel
    2. +2
      15 July 2026 18: 56
      Quote: Alexey RA
      But it's worth moving forward half a century - and immediately for abandoning the same base, one of our general secretaries is practically demanded to be crucified.

      + 100500! good
    3. 0
      16 July 2026 19: 45
      Alexey, if you're talking about me, no, I think the P-A was a bad position even in Soviet times. But it had symbolic significance. Whether it should have been given up is not for me to judge.
      But I looked at the depth maps, both for Kargodo and Artur. Kargodo's depth is 17 meters, and Artur's is astonishing. According to the map, battleships wouldn't be able to stand there today, because the map showed 5 meters, while the battleships' depth is 8,5. Perhaps they were sucked in by what they dug up earlier. So, judge for yourself whether it's good or bad.
      1. +1
        17 July 2026 15: 53
        Quote: Alexander Iloev
        Alexey, if you're talking about me

        In no case! hi
        I'm talking about those who advocated for maintaining the lease of Port Arthur in the 50s - although even at the end of the century before last, the navy was disgusted by this base.
        Quote: Alexander Iloev
        ...no, I think the P-A was a bad position even in Soviet times. But it had symbolic significance. Whether it should have been given up is not for me to judge.

        The development vector of the Navy (and indeed of the entire USSR Armed Forces) under the National Security Council was aimed at inflicting unacceptable damage on the United States and mitigating damage to the USSR in the event of a global war. Anything that was useless in this regard was cut down.
        Because I have no time for fat - I just want to stay alive: the situation in the 50s was such that the USSR lacked the means of guaranteed delivery warmth and light To another continent. All the Soviet Union had at the time was strategic aviation with "cast iron." But by the late 50s, the airspace approaching the United States was blocked by mass-produced Nike-Hercules air defense systems.
        So, if necessary, the US could crush the USSR with impunity, sacrificing only Europe. But what did the US care about that Europe?
        And yes, the threat of a total nuclear war on the USSR was not an invention of Red propaganda. At the time, the US military leadership was extremely radical, undoubtedly facilitated by the complete impunity of their actions. in which case.
        Maybe if we do this flyby properly, we can start World War III.

        We would have been a hell of a lot better off if we had started World War III back then.
        © Curtis LeMay, Commander of the U.S. Air Force Strategic Command. 1954.
  18. +1
    17 July 2026 02: 02
    Quote: Alexander Iloev
    Lynx, did you read the criticism of Port Arthur in the article? If you think I made it up, check it out, including in my bibliography. Just because your ancestor fought at Port Arthur doesn't automatically mean it's a good position. The article assesses it as a position. A railway through foreign territory is a strategic vulnerability.
    I think those who see something in an article that doesn't align with their opinion simply skip it. And so they write their own criticism.

    Port Arthur was not the Pacific Fleet's main military port. It was a naval base for protecting the interests of the Russian Empire in China, similar to those of other European powers.
    If I'm not mistaken, Vladivostok was designated the main military port of the Pacific Fleet in the Far East in 1871. Yes, by the start of the Russo-Japanese War, it was developing, but at that time, it had some limitations for year-round use, the mooring of several squadrons, and their logistics...
    I am not advocating that Port Arthur is very important for the Russian Empire, or that it was necessary to focus on developing the port of Vladivostok.
    It is a historical fact that what happened happened, and Port Arthur was the base for representing the interests of the Russian Empire in this region...
    1. +1
      17 July 2026 15: 57
      Quote: Lynx2000
      Yes, by the beginning of the Russo-Japanese War it was developing, but at that time it had some limitations for year-round use, the mooring of several squadrons and their logistics...

      Judging by the testimony of the Commander of the Vladivostok Port and his subordinates, all that Vladivostok could offer the squadron in 1905 was a place to anchor.
      There are no spare guns (the small reserve was partially allocated to coastal artillery). There are no large-caliber ammunition. The artillery workshops require completion and full staffing with machine tools and specialists. For ship repair facilities, see the history of the Bogatyr.
  19. +2
    19 July 2026 16: 06
    It was clearly visible from the heights of Kargodø and could be shot through by coastal artillery, which would prevent the penetration of enemy mine ships, which could not be attacked here.

    The outer roadstead of Port Arthur was also visible from the heights of Golden Mountain and Liaote Shan... and was shot through... this somehow prevented the enemy's mine ships from turning it into a dumpling soup???
    P.S. I mean to talk, not to quarrel...
  20. 0
    27 July 2026 17: 23
    On the other side of the Tsushima Strait: Port Arthur or Dalniy
    Where is even a word about Dalniy?