Military Review

Siberians about Siberia and not only ....

124
As I wrote in the previous article, hunters are peculiar people. Yes, and the hunt itself has become an obsession. Proximity to nature, common interests, freedom from office, rank, merit, give rise to very special relations. And the evening gatherings around the fire, after a few hours in the reeds or a dozen kilometers on the plains, set up a benign, philosophical mood.


So. Evening. Crackle logs on fire bonfire. The soup gurgles in a pot. In the circle is another portion of "glasses of tea." And a few completely different, both in age and in the position of people, united for a short three days of hunting.

I did not write down who said what. It was important for me to learn the general opinion on some issues. Therefore, the hero will not. Will the Hunter ...

About Siberia
And what about Siberia? - The richest country. Earth - heaps! And you dig the ground - in general, all heaps. Only now not everyone is given. Midge, swamps, frost. Each creature has a pair. A lot of people came here in Soviet times. And remained units. Siberia accepts only real people. Without a wormhole. How to build a railway with the king, and we live, for the most part, on this road. And about the birds, fish and animals, and I will not speak. I saw it myself. And if you turn your head, then you will see - the owl flies.

Previously, the state needed to develop these lands. Not only oil was pumped, but bread was also raised, cattle were raised. Our area ten neighboring fed. But then. Everything stopped. Farmers are trying to do something, just confused - a little.

Yes ... distance from us. Two airports were before. One front, for airplanes from other cities and regions. And the second is local. Corncroppers, helicopters, and all sorts of AN-24 and YAK-40 flew to regional centers, like buses. People from the most distant, bearish corners flew into the city to shop, just to rest. Now there is no local airport. In areas even strip dismantled. Only out in the next district center remained. And that is simply because he redeemed and uses his aged Moscow showman - a pilot with good pressure.

About the city
Our city is beautiful. Soon we will celebrate three hundred years. Yes, and a millionaire. When there was not yet this rampant democracy, we lived in a garden city. So everywhere they wrote - "Garden City". We lived well, did not want to leave. We looked at cities in other places and saw that we live no worse. And then came the restructuring. Easy money came from the western regions, oil companies came and that's it. The city is dead. Huge factories began to work with us, and the money went to other places.

The governor began to invest in the village. And now, you see, the village is half-dead and the city is the same. But probably the worst thing that happened is hopelessness. People live, instead of living. Old people after 40-45 years of work simply do not. No. And the one that will be taken will cost a maximum of 10-12 thousand.

Small and medium businesses were squeezed so that in the first quarter of this year alone, more than four thousand entrepreneurs revoked their licenses.
So, those who are willing and able to work are fleeing the region. Run to Russia, to Moscow, Peter. Recently, the son of a friend in Peter left. Toyota assemble at the factory. The work is hard, the apartment is rented with friends, but they are not going to return.

There used to be a garden city, but now it has become a city - a garbage dump. In the literal sense of the word. In any yard deposits of garbage. Not to mention the paint. Probably to us it is delivered only for private traders. You will not see a border painted, a fence. And we have patching roads. The climate itself, as you can see, is cold in winter and snow, and in summer it is hot, in spring and in autumn it is slush. Here our asphalt roads together with snow and washes away. And in chunks, or rather pits. And repair these pits all summer. Annually. And in September, another layout will draw. So that all people had. And there is winter, everything is under the snow and in the spring everything is new.

About utilities
Well, it's like everywhere, I guess. It seems that something is being done, but for some reason on a global scale. About the repair of houses, people no longer remember. They are shabby from the Soviet times, well, let them stand. But if the wall falls outside or there the plates by centimeters 20-30 diverge - then yes! Will repair and oboshyut, so it was not visible. In short, I don’t want to talk about it.

About youth
Our youth is normal. No worse than other places. They study, work, serve in the army. There are, of course, problems. How without them? Drug that's divorced. Like and catch, but to sense?

Ours are stubborn. If they decide - they will. Therefore, there are many universities in the city, academies. I would even say that we have a student city. Was and is. And good specialists come out. Only use them nowhere. Leave.

About Siberians
What to talk about us? Here we are. We can work and relax. And we can drink and eat. And when it is necessary - and tighten the belts. We can not climb out of the beams for months (residential cabins on wheels), we can build a house and get food.

Roots from where? Yes, someone like. Most are Siberians from war or post-war years. You see the lights in the distance - the German village. Probably a third of the area Germans, once evicted by Stalin, occupy. Just what are the Germans now? Ours are Siberians.

When Gorbachev left a lot in Germany. But the majority remained - Motherland. The only difference - the monuments in the cemeteries on the contrary put. Yes, a little more order. And so, Siberians, the roots are purely Soviet. You understand about the German villages, but there are also Kazakh, Tatar, Chuvash villages. Yes, what we do not have?

About religion
Yes, we are Orthodox. True, not particularly pious, but sometimes we go to church. There more old women live. But, you know, people are different. So faith is different. And we have a mosque. And the church. There are some prayer houses. What about us? Well, people pray to their God. They are in their own way, we are in their own way, so what? Nobody teaches anyone: how to live, whose God is better. Over in the North, the Old Believers live on their own. Live well. No one thinks they are better or worse. As they say now, in this issue we have tolerance.

About patriotism
Well, brother, you love high words! You know, every kid with our mother's milk absorbs us - there is a house, a village, a city, a country. And you, as a man, are obliged to convey this to your son, daughter. Obligated to protect girls and women from the fierce beast, whatever his guise would come. Probably you know the Siberian divisions were killed near Moscow? Even the famous Panfilovs were leaving our station. It’s not me that the fighters are better or more mastered than ours. Simply, probably, we are more solid, stockier, or what? Patriotism begins, you know, with what? In wartime childhood playing? So it begins with the fact that the snotty boys want to be for ours.

About weapons
Are you allowed to carry guns? Pampering all this and will not lead to anything good. There, in the corner of the borrowing, you see - a hole? Random shot. An experienced hunter and voila! And the old woman is prorukha.

Well, tell me, what will give you a gun? Confidence? Protection? An opportunity to help someone in trouble? Nonsense it all. If you go with a gun - you do not even have time to get it. And if with a knife - you will sit down for a long time for excess of self-defense measures. According to current laws, you can't even shoot from your tulku to a criminal. She must lie in the iron box. Already better in the old way - with a knife or an ax.

About power
What is pop, so is the parish. No, and we will not have power. No, there will be more and more officials every year. Deputies of different. But there will be no power. Look, a man has become a deputy or mayor there. Power sea, and I want more and money. And begin to seize. Because temporary workers. Because it’s not the city or country that cares for them, but their own purse.

Here in the era of stagnation and decomposition of the rules by the region of our first secretary of the CPSU regional committee Manyakin. I was still a kid then. So the democracy came, the communists began to blame, and the name of this Manyakin street was called, and recently the ship. It is in our time! Can you imagine the street of any of the modern rulers? That's the same!

About migrants
Migrants come to us. Not so, of course, as in Moscow. But go. Already Chinese villages have appeared. True, citizenship is not taken, but as bugs. One wound up, wait a couple of months a hundred. Kazakhs in general - local. The south of the region is almost completely Kazakh. And the city is half.

Once on the coat of arms of the city depicted the fortress wall. Protection from Kyrgyz. Now, that's only from the Kyrgyz and protects. But all sorts of Uzbeks, Tajiks almost do not go. Draw in summer and freeze in winter.

Of course, I would like Siberia to remain Russian after all. Just does not work. Children leave, old people die out. You drove here, saw how many abandoned houses and entire villages? Since Gorbachev's times is. So we will soon return the property to the owners of this region before Yermak.

... These are the notes I brought in a notebook from the hunt. With something from the stated I agree completely, something causes a protest. But I did not edit the thoughts and words of others. It seemed to me that against the background of the victorious reports of the leadership of the region (such as the average salary in 22 thousands of rubles), it would be appropriate to give the floor to the simple Siberians. People who live here, who survive here.
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  1. avant-garde
    avant-garde 27 May 2013 07: 10 New
    11
    Our city is beautiful. Soon we will celebrate three hundred years.
    ____
    I understand that you write about the glorious city of Omsk ???
    1. Phantom Revolution
      Phantom Revolution 27 May 2013 11: 39 New
      +6
      Campaign, about Omsk, I can add that there really is no one going to employ young people. In fact, I listened to the bureaucrats speaking on the radio when I was on business there, so they said, "We can only train young professionals, but let them look for work in other cities." So think for what bureaucrats get this money?
      Regarding the people, to be honest, there are so many frankly drunkards who can be seen with the naked eye with tincture of chamomile or something else alcohol-containing. Young people are degrading, maybe such an area has come across. But I saw a picture of three 11 summer girls sending the veteran “closed by censorship” for making a remark to them that they shouldn’t swear, and then they broke the bottles and the floor, taking them out of the trash, until I came up, they didn’t want to calm down. The question is, where are their “mothers” and “dads”, whom are they raising for their replacement?
      The city is beautiful, but the bureaucrats only want to fill their pockets, if everything stolen were allowed to open factories, the city would get a second wind.
      PS I’ll add on my own with pedestrian crossings they have trouble, to be honest, in the center of the city, there is not a normal crossing everywhere, if only they would draw a zebra.) IMHO.
      1. Hleb
        Hleb 27 May 2013 11: 53 New
        +2
        there is such youth throughout Russia. but not all. there are much fewer than normal ones.
        if everything stolen was allowed to open factories, the city would receive a second wind.

        there are enough plants. we breathe
        1. Phantom Revolution
          Phantom Revolution 27 May 2013 14: 09 New
          +2
          Why, then, the youth is not employed?
          1. Hleb
            Hleb 27 May 2013 18: 22 New
            +1
            who told you this? and who works there? pensioners from the USSR chtoli? niece and husband, for example, work there. There are colleagues in the fire and security. What is it about?
      2. avant-garde
        avant-garde 27 May 2013 11: 56 New
        +5
        I don’t want to be the sandpiper who only praises his swamp, but here I am just embarrassed by what people see only the bad ??? My tongue will not turn to say that in Omsk there are no drunkards, but where are they not ??? There are no roads in Omsk, but where are they ??? In Omsk, young people are stupid people, and this is, and where are they not ??? The feeling is that a person arriving in another city just counts, as if to consider more crap, and then write on the Internet. You did not try to drive to Victory Park, the 30th anniversary park of the Komsomol, visit the Cathedral Square, go along Lenin, and there are many more places. Why do we like to delve into dirty laundry. After all, I’m not telling Muscovites that when you go to the Aeroexpress train from Domodedovo the feeling is that it’s not Moscow, but a dump, mountains of garbage, gray houses, etc. etc. Do not judge a book by its cover !!!!
        1. Hleb
          Hleb 27 May 2013 11: 59 New
          +9
          there are also young people who are champions for the second year in a row
          1. astra
            astra 27 May 2013 17: 05 New
            +8
            No offense to others it was said that Siberians, northerners are generally a special people. Now they are difficult to distinguish from others, and in moments of danger they are revealed. Take, for example, the Great Patriotic War — how many heroic acts they committed along with others, and the North — On the Kola Peninsula, the Germans on separate sections of the border were not able to go through it at all and fought at the border throughout the war. Maybe the north brings up great resilience in people and many useful qualities. It's a shame that such vast expanses are not mastered. We don’t have enough people of the Stolypin level to master and settle all over Mother Russia.
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 27 May 2013 17: 48 New
              +1
              1) In my opinion, Siberians (and generally northern Russians) as soldiers are better than Russian natives of southern Russia. But this is only a subjective opinion, I can be completely mistaken. Moreover, other regions of Russia also gave their country enough heroes.
              2) The Stolypin resettlement program looked beautiful on paper. On the territory of Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, the Stolypin region ended in great bloodshed both by Russians, and Kazakhs, and Kyrgyz in 1916-1917. For several centuries, the steppes because of these pastures with the Dzungars waged a war of total annihilation, and then officials and immigrants arrived and declared that now it was their land, and the locals should leave these pastures. In the end, what happened happened. But in Siberia, Transbaikalia and the Far East, where the population was less than very small, it didn’t come to such stabbing.
              The fact that it is necessary to develop new mechanisms for the flow of the population into the man-deficient regions of Russia is unambiguous.
              By the way, in addition to Stolypin, the program for the settlement of recently acquired or simply old, but sparsely populated territories was successfully dealt with by Catherine the Second - Crimea (after the mass migration of the steppes to Turkey), Kuban (there really stupidly genocide all the locals), the Germans settled Little Russia, Astrakhan, the Volga region, and the colonization of Siberia. Even she understood the need for redistribution of human resources, as well as the development of the outskirts.
              I don’t know why in Russia for 20 years no one in the Kremlin raised a finger to tackle these issues. Maybe they just understand that it is necessary to transfer the capital to Siberia (or not far from Siberia), but don’t want to be far from its London real estate and Prague Sunday walks?
              By the way, Catherine was not afraid to create compact ethnic regions in the country from among foreigners - Germans, Kalmyks, Little Russians, etc., to opponents of migrants from the CIS. I understood that it was better to populate the land with Kalmyks, Germans or Cossacks (who were often not quite Russian) than have weeds overgrown with weeds. And she was absolutely right. And do not recall that she herself spoke Russian with an accent, her policy was generally correct. She staked out empty lands by foreign nations for the good of Russia and the Russian people. In the same way, later all kinds of peoples - Central Asian Uigurs, Dungans, as well as Siberian, Mongolian, Far Eastern peoples from under the rule of the Qing emperor to move to Russia were lured to resettle in the 19th century.
              1. baltika-18
                baltika-18 27 May 2013 18: 10 New
                +1
                Quote: Marek Rozny
                By the way, Catherine was not afraid to create compact ethnic areas in the country from among foreigners who opposed migrants from the CIS

                Less for valuable advice.
                1. DeerIvanovich
                  DeerIvanovich 27 May 2013 20: 21 New
                  -2
                  I support your initiative, the more pearls are enough: at least drop
        2. Phantom Revolution
          Phantom Revolution 27 May 2013 14: 18 New
          +5
          Quote: avant-garde
          I don’t want to be the sandpiper who only praises his swamp, but here I am just embarrassed by what people see only the bad ???

          And what if it is, then this must not be noticed? It is common for each person to compare about what you have listed, it is everywhere, but since in Omsk, alas, it was too striking. Everywhere there are problems and it is necessary to solve them, and if you do not notice them and say that they say everywhere is like that, then it will be very sad for Russia.
          PS About the roads, I didn’t speak about the quality of the roads themselves, I’m talking about a hundred pedestrian crossings, often not enough, maybe this is the problem of Omsk’s extension.
          About the parks, I was there, but beautiful, as in other places, but their beauty does not solve the problem.
      3. Papakiko
        Papakiko 27 May 2013 16: 13 New
        +4
        Quote: Phantom Revolution
        I’ll take it off myself with pedestrian crossings, they have trouble, to be honest, in the center of the city, you don’t see a normal crossing everywhere, even if you’ve drawn a zebra.) IMHO.

        What a "foul little town", and yet he is a city-HERO and is only deprived of the advanced outpost of Siberia. meaning to wash bones ?!
        Novosib, Tomsk, Kemerovo, Region and so on. how do they differ from Omsk?
        The real Siberia is shorter than Omsk, this is the Yenisei papo.

        Watch the video in 4 parts and then talk about Siberia and the people inhabiting.
        1. Yen
          Yen 28 May 2013 03: 41 New
          +1
          Yes, brother. Yenisei, father, a mad river, she always attracted me. Are you from where?
      4. Tartary
        Tartary 27 May 2013 17: 45 New
        +5
        Certainly disgusting to get into the upper thread of the discussion, but ...
        I want to say just that -

        Although "domocle" is an old resident of the site, but there are also older, and more insignificant ...

        The story is very, very useful, who is not in the know, but there are clarifications ...

        Perov - the so-called "Siberian divisions" - are not exactly divisions from Siberia, or rather, the Far East, since the commander of the Far Eastern District, General Apanasenko, while arguing personally with Stalin, sent completely equipped troops from the borders of today's Far Eastern Federal District, a he was able to very quickly replenish the border defense by mobilizing the local population of the Far East, Siberia and Kazakhstan, after the 22nd divisions of the Far East and 4 from Kazakhstan went in full force to the front near Moscow and not only ...
        No one can argue that Siberia was left out of work ... But to argue that the divisions were accurate and only Siberian was not at all right ...
        Second - very little was said about the housing and communal services ... It seems like Siberia and the Far East live in the Krasnodar zone ... Perhaps this is due to the fact that the "domocle" clearly does not want an additional outflow of the settled population ... Therefore, it softens, yes and does not stipulate conditions and tariffs ...
        Third, the theme of the hunter was not disclosed .. Well, since we are talking about the core, about HIM - the primordial earner ...
        The fourth is the mosquito kingdom (!)
        What can be compared with the taiga in the hills of the Far East and the piles to the west, as well as coniferous forest-burs, as well as the birch trees of Siberian taiga (!) Open spaces and tracts?
        Not many exotic countries can compare with such beauty,
        As it cannot compare with them in its severity, the darkness of mosquito varieties, which, hour after hour, changing each other, rests on everything that has warm blood ...
        Once in such a kingdom, know that no chemistry will help you and no means will save ...
        I won’t even talk about different sprays - forget the hunter who came here ... Mosquito nets - throw out, if not a beekeeper, because with handfuls from beneath them you will at once rake the darkness of various creatures with full palms all the time, without stopping ... Do not dream of looking at your face in the mirror for another two days ... However, traditional doping somewhat softens the suffering of the body, but not very ...
        Mosquitoes and gadflies of different sizes and abilities at different times of the day - o.o. but the question is ... You can not discuss them - horror those who see without keen eyes in the dark, it is very difficult ... And their types of gnawing you are everywhere - a few ...
        And they gnaw from dusk until the morning ... You wish to rest on an extreme hunt forgetting yourself a dream - do not dream ... The edge when you sleep is noon, but the gadfly and other TV creatures will not allow you to really sleep ...

        Here it is such Siberia and the lands of Russia to the east in summary ...

        P.S. Everything else, plus unsaid, the fellow countryman outlined as it is ...
        1. Ruslan67
          Ruslan67 28 May 2013 05: 21 New
          +1
          Quote: Tartary
          P.S. Everything else, plus unsaid, the fellow countryman outlined as it is ...

          To you + though rare hi And you didn’t have to be in northern Karelia? I crawled there during the service. Impressions are unforgettable. wassat
          1. Tartary
            Tartary 29 May 2013 05: 41 New
            0
            Quote: Ruslan67
            Quote: Tartary
            P.S. Everything else, plus unsaid, the fellow countryman outlined as it is ...

            To you + though rare hi


            Thank you ... Great human - thanks. hi
            But whose is it immediately rare? As a plus, as rare as a minus bold?! Is there a tooth for what?
            So do not lurk - the truth between the eyes, this is the lot of the strong ...
            Hints between the lines, this is the fate of the weak ...
        2. Danash I
          Danash I 28 May 2013 20: 36 New
          +2
          and yesterday mosquitoes killed our cow right before our eyes .... don’t scare people ... the latter will run away. smile after three days you don’t pay attention. But you’re alive.
  2. Alexander-Tomsk
    Alexander-Tomsk 27 May 2013 07: 22 New
    +6
    I agree with something, with something not, but really a lot of people are leaving, I myself think after school to move somewhere ...
    1. Maks111
      Maks111 27 May 2013 08: 37 New
      +1
      I myself think after study somewhere to move ...
      Support.
  3. Svobodny
    Svobodny 27 May 2013 07: 25 New
    +2
    Quote: avant-garde
    about the glorious city of Omsk

    I also learn Omsk))) I had a chance to live there for a while. There are many pleasant memories left. You have to come back ...
    1. avant-garde
      avant-garde 27 May 2013 07: 27 New
      +2
      Welcome drinks
      1. Hleb
        Hleb 27 May 2013 08: 00 New
        +2
        Welcome
        wink


        1. avant-garde
          avant-garde 27 May 2013 08: 09 New
          0
          And what did you mean by that ??? What city do you live in if not a secret ??? Right now I'll find the sea of ​​such pictures too!
          1. Hleb
            Hleb 27 May 2013 08: 11 New
            0
            I live in oil industry
            1. avant-garde
              avant-garde 27 May 2013 08: 15 New
              +2
              Well then, not only here, lay out such pictures, well, and others
              1. Hleb
                Hleb 27 May 2013 08: 21 New
                +1
                I’ll spread what I’m interested in. If you saw this evil (!) irony, you’re mistaken. I’m used to not only dusting, but touching all sides and looking really. If in the morning the residents were stunned by a strange raid on the streets, this caused a great resonance .if they build a silicon plant, it also excites many. I live a few minutes from the arena.
                (honestly. sometimes annoying lack of sense of humor)
                1. avant-garde
                  avant-garde 27 May 2013 08: 26 New
                  +1
                  Well, let's not show one-sided city! Indeed, in all cities there are problems. And yes, in the first photo, I can’t understand this either)
                  1. Hleb
                    Hleb 27 May 2013 08: 33 New
                    +1
                    these are the same rainfall from the factory

                    (and personally for you. may come in handy for an avatar))
                    1. avant-garde
                      avant-garde 27 May 2013 08: 52 New
                      +1
                      Thanks for the picture! That came in handy)))
            2. Nayhas
              Nayhas 27 May 2013 08: 48 New
              +2
              Condolences, live near the exhaust pipe tin ...
          2. Hleb
            Hleb 27 May 2013 08: 35 New
            +1
            here is also an interesting point
        2. domokl
          27 May 2013 12: 22 New
          +9
          lol Funny pictures ... Yesterday I walked along the Irtysh embankment .. It's beautiful. Just right at the side of the road there are a lot of different cars, beer on the roofs, something stronger ... And even at the Ocean hookah was lit right on the side of the road ... A lot of interesting things is in Omsk.
          And especially for the Vanguard ... I know this city probably more than you. And I know the story, and the sights. Only the article is not written about the glorification or blackening of the city ... The article is written more about problems. And the city including ... If you will find inaccuracies, please inform ... And it turns out, for the sake of a red word, I started to lie ..
          1. avant-garde
            avant-garde 27 May 2013 12: 26 New
            0
            Did I catch you somewhere in a lie ???
          2. Z.A.M.
            Z.A.M. 27 May 2013 14: 12 New
            +4
            domokl

            Article plus. drinks
      2. Grey74
        Grey74 27 May 2013 09: 15 New
        +2
        And I studied at OVOKU))) for a long time it was))
    2. Hleb
      Hleb 27 May 2013 08: 05 New
      +3
      Lots of fond memories left
      wink
      1. Svobodny
        Svobodny 27 May 2013 09: 04 New
        +2
        Not without "harmful production," of course. Everyone sees what he wants.
    3. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 28 May 2013 09: 26 New
      0
      Quote: Svobodny
      I also learn Omsk))) I had a chance to live there for a while. There are many pleasant memories left. You have to come back ...


      20 years of hesitation - is it too long? "You are either there or here" (c).
      Otherwise, it is called "temporary psychology." So, the Kazakhs need to be treated in relation to your person accordingly - as a random person, a temporary migrant, a disloyal element, a potential traitor, a “fifth column”, a saboteur and simply as a person who should not be trusted in the country. And all this taken together. We’ve gotten away with my scarecrows “I’ll leave, I won’t leave”. Normal Russians have long been determined and look in the eyes of the Kazakhs - absolutely their own. And the “undecided” ones will never inspire confidence among Kazakhs.
      I do not wish for your departure as much, but it is high time to decide. After that you and you can calmly breathe and continue to live and work.
      1. Svobodny
        Svobodny 29 May 2013 09: 04 New
        0
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        it's time to decide

        Everything is defined: I live on my land. And with the “fifth column” we are building the Eurasian Union and call its representatives brothers forever))) In my opinion, we are building a single space, without borders and, possibly, with a single citizenship. From here, “I will leave — I will not leave” is no longer relevant for a long time, since we have no division into friend or foe. For me, Omsk is as dear as Alma-Ata or Karaganda - all these are cities of one country.
  4. Hleb
    Hleb 27 May 2013 07: 33 New
    +1
    basically say so everywhere
  5. Refund_SSSR
    Refund_SSSR 27 May 2013 07: 34 New
    12
    And what about Siberia? - The richest country. Earth - heaps! And you dig the ground - in general, all heaps. Only now not everyone is given. Midge, swamps, frost. Each creature has a pair. A lot of people came here in Soviet times. And remained units. Siberia accepts only real people. Without a wormhole. How to build a railway with the king, and we live, for the most part, on this road. And about the birds, fish and animals, and I will not speak. I saw it myself. And if you turn your head, then you will see - the owl flies.
    Multiply by two and get the Far East, that's just not the severity of the people matter, but the need for the country.
    Siberians and Far Easterners were needed and cities bloomed, land was being developed, and now? And the land seems to be no less and people like the same, but the population is still thinning and thinning.
    What's the matter? Yes, the fact that they actually selected the northern ones at the same time they were loaded with such prices that they could break away from our not-so-friendly beauties for humans, and even in the season, to Moscow it costs 60-80 tr Aeroflot ...
    Yes, the fishers still live somehow, but at the expense of the fishers they live, and those who dress, feed, wash, treat, protect, and so on .... Well, whoever manages these fishers also lives on and the business is understandably comfortable.
    But to live, or rather survive, in such conditions, not everyone, even the most severe people, wants to leave now or in the future.
    Those who lived in the villages have already left for the cities, even large though small. Those who lived in small cities, those who left for large cities, those who lived in large cities, have already left or will soon leave for Siberia or the south of the country, where they at least somehow still live and live in civilization.
    I would like to believe that our wonderful lands will be in demand again and will develop not only in the plans for the "development of the Far East", which bureaucrats didn’t move further than the food ...
    Of course, you can sing praises to big cities about wonderful life - you can, but reality ... reality is not in that color ... They certainly haven’t forgotten about us .. in fact, they remember us at the top of power and calmly "have "and in return for those leaving, more and more slaves are being imported from abroad, and why should theirs pay a lot of money if it is possible for a Tajik and the like to pay three less?
    I’m silent about the fact that the cost of housing in Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk is comparable to the cost of housing in Moscow on the areas between the third transport and Sadovy (Muscovites immediately figured out prices, right? Now look at the map where Moscow and Sakhalin are). And in such circumstances, even the most severe and brutal youth with brains and all that is, stupidly forced to leave, because a young family, even in a mortgage can not buy a one-room apartment for 3,5 million in a house that is already 20-40 years old , not because it’s a pity to take a mortgage for 20 years, but because it’s scary that by the time of payment, the house will be so old that at best it will not fall apart. Well, how can you not leave here?
    This is a cold calculation for squeezing crumbs from the rich, but hard-to-reach parts of the Russian Federation.
    Well, the beauty of nature ... Come and see for yourself, you won’t see this in your own taiga :) Why are the legendary mugs 2,5 meters high and a half meters in diameter with the umbrella itself. laughing You are welcome to our fishing and hunting (unless of course you pull the price tag, the cost of the tail for amateur fishing this year is 90 rubles ... Is it a joke, but to live on the island and not be able to catch the fish for your own pleasure? Bit the price ..)
    1. avant-garde
      avant-garde 27 May 2013 07: 48 New
      +4
      Quote: We refund_SSSR
      to Moscow it costs 60-80 tr Aeroflot ...

      Do not fuck yourself. belay, I don’t often fly to Moscow with the S7 company; an Omsk-Moscow ticket costs an average of 10t.r. Somehow I even bought it back for 9500r!
      1. Refund_SSSR
        Refund_SSSR 27 May 2013 07: 51 New
        11
        Well, this is me in the summer season, one way gave the price tag. And so, in winter you can fly for 12 in both directions, but what to do in Moscow in winter then? laughing
        By the way, the Internet is also at a ticket price laughing
        Unlimited 1 megabit costs 1,5 thousand rubles laughing two megabits cost 2-2,5 thousand, and more than 4 megabits there is no speed at all. And this is in the regional center ... and what can we say about the outback :)
        Sakhalin burdock

        Speaking of mugs ..
        1. Refund_SSSR
          Refund_SSSR 27 May 2013 08: 16 New
          +3
          Housing and utilities
          Come and experience for yourself, cold batteries in 30-35 degree frosts at 80-90% humidity (this isn’t puppies -50 in Siberia at a humidity of 40-70% .. These are real, evil frosts that make the skin on your face tear )
          or 12 hours without light at any time of the year and without any excuses .. they knocked it all down .. I wanted to (and you can write off, in the case of an investigation that does not happen, you can do anything, whether it’s frozen coal in the summer or some other fiction )
          At the same time, these pleasures are for such a price tag that it immediately throws it into sweat in the cold and in summer the frost penetrates the skin ...
          About the fact that someone should take revenge on the yards and wash the entrances, they may have heard something in the housing and utilities sector, but the housing and communal services are sure that there is no money for it, but we pay regular service bills and the prices are not for children.
          About the pipelines that have been broken forever and their repair, every year in the same place and certainly after laying the asphalt - I won’t say))) Otherwise, Petrosyan will have to eat his hat because after this story, he will definitely not be funny.
          1. Refund_SSSR
            Refund_SSSR 27 May 2013 08: 35 New
            15
            About patriotism
            "The farther east, the stronger the character of a person"(C) So imagine the harsh Siberians, what kind of people live in Kamchatka, Chukotka, Sakhalin Island and the Kuril Poisons .. Represented? Spin the globe in your hands?
            How do you think a person living in such conditions and shouting "Kul to you and not smoked!" Should love the motherland! When is the question of transferring the islands of Japan ???
            This is not a children's war game for you ...
            It’s even scary to imagine what a person capable of loving his life in such a country is capable of!
            I would think in the place of our enemies whether it would be worth going to Siberia and the Far East if, on the outskirts of Moscow, the enemy has been raking such craps throughout history that they are still afraid am laughing
            1. regsSSSR
              regsSSSR 27 May 2013 23: 10 New
              +3
              Yeah! there before this article was about patriotism, so this is what I want to say about this HERE WHICH YOU NEED TO LEARN TO LOVE THE HOMELAND in the Moscow region and, in general, the whole central snickering part of Russia IN THIS SIBERIANS AND FAR EAST RESIDENTS !!
          2. mogus
            mogus 27 May 2013 09: 46 New
            -2
            Come and experience on
            cool batteries in
            30-35 degree frost with
            80-90% humidity (this is for you
            not puppies -50 in Siberia at
            humidity 40-70% .. These are real, such evil
            frosts from which the skin is on
            face is torn)

            Well, I already heard a lot about these stories about humidity :) My mother, when I was young in my studies in Khabarovsk, wondered why everything in Primorye is growing in the open air, as we only have in a greenhouse / greenhouse. It's all about humidity, it protects well from frost and softens the climate. We only have tomatoes with human height in the greenhouse. My classmate is now in Blagoveshchensk and another in Vladivostok, because there are no complaints at all about the climate.
            In eastern Siberia, when snow comes (humidity rises) it warms up to 20 degrees ... If the air is damp in the morning, then frost will fall in the frost at dawn (in the clear sky, crystals similar to snow fall) and the temperature rises in degrees by five. In general, when you complain about humidity, my antifreeze in the radiator from the porridge becomes liquid :) MORE: July. I disassemble the old buildings, digging the ground. Clay, a day at 40 degrees, I dig up 20cm. and I find ice in the putty! Sandstone, pit under the pillars, depth 70cm, at the bottom something shines and does not dig further. I rested. Nothing glitters (the ice has melted), a couple of centimeters to shine. In Krasnoyarsk, an artificial reservoir changed the climate from sharp to moderate. You are very lucky with humidity.
            1. Refund_SSSR
              Refund_SSSR 27 May 2013 10: 13 New
              +8
              did you even finish school? laughing mother told him laughing oh nonsense ..
              Do you have any idea how stupid it is to tell the builder engineer what and how the humidity of the climate affects it?
              Well, for example, go to the bathhouse, take a steam bath in a dry bathhouse, and then mold some water, thereby increasing humidity and compare the effect.
              That's exactly the same way only with a minus sign burns and frost with greater humidity.
              So softness is where the humidity is lower.
              A radiator and a person to compare - just aerobatics laughing
              1. baltika-18
                baltika-18 27 May 2013 10: 36 New
                +7
                Quote: We refund_SSSR
                So softness is where the humidity is lower.

                I’ll support it. I lived in the Irkutsk region, Sayansk, -40, is tolerated normally. Now in the Ivanovo region, in -30 frost, it is much harder than in Siberia.
                1. SCS
                  SCS 27 May 2013 13: 39 New
                  0
                  Quote: baltika-18
                  Quote: We refund_SSSR
                  So softness is where the humidity is lower.

                  I’ll support it. I lived in the Irkutsk region, Sayansk, -40, is tolerated normally. Now in the Ivanovo region, in -30 frost, it is much harder than in Siberia.

                  maybe it still depends on the state of the body, and so he lived in Moscow -30 standards, this year in Barnaul -40-odd, well, just not at all ... especially when he crushes for two weeks!
              2. mogus
                mogus 27 May 2013 10: 46 New
                +2
                school in the 2000th. Come to us and compare. Antifreeze freezes when below -40, regardless of humidity, when the engine starts, the heater for 2 hours, no less, does not work. Warms up with the arrival of precipitation. It also burns dry air, but getting frostbite at -40 in dry air or -20 in wet, does it make a difference?
                Sensation of moist air and real frosts ... do you have construction equipment being stopped due to humidity? And they stop us, they are afraid of cable breaks on cranes and humidity do not care.
            2. Stas
              Stas 27 May 2013 13: 36 New
              +1
              Khabarovsk is not Primorye !!! You are telling some tales. Primorye is quite large: on the coast, the climate is quite cold and damp. In the summer, often in the evenings I had to walk in a leather jacket (not every year, but even so). Therefore, not everything grows there, especially when typhoons come from the sea in summer and the rain pours for weeks. And the areas are closer to the center (Spask Dalniy), there really is a good continental climate, hot, dry summers, cold winters.
              1. mogus
                mogus 27 May 2013 16: 02 New
                +2
                there is a great influence of the marine climate. This winter, ZIL-131, an electric boiler of 220 volts, below -40, was connected at 9.00, the engine started only at 16.00. Passenger car, antifreeze freezes, the boiler heats the engine, in the radiator of the heater porridge which for two hours keeps with the engine running, then fine. Cranes do not work if -38. Eternal Frost.
          3. komendor
            komendor 27 May 2013 17: 42 New
            0
            Sorry for the minus, this is a mistake.
          4. Alexander-Tomsk
            Alexander-Tomsk 27 May 2013 18: 35 New
            +3
            Quote: We refund_SSSR
            Come and experience for yourself, cold batteries in 30-35 degree frosts at 80-90% humidity (this isn’t puppies -50 in Siberia at a humidity of 40-70% .. These are real, evil frosts that make the skin on your face tear )


            Uncle I’m not going to measure with you, but I doubt that it’s snowing in mid-May. tongue

            Quote: We refund_SSSR
            About the forever torn pipelines and their repair, every year in the same place and certainly after laying asphalt - I will not say


            And it’s not right, believe me, not only in the Far East, but in all of Russia (Irodes dig under my window every year, right at the bus stop) and it’s not about geography, but about cutting money allocated for repairs. wink
        2. stroporez
          stroporez 27 May 2013 09: 19 New
          +2
          in the depths laughing ----- 12 megabits of fiber, 940 rubles. month. the scene is Yamal ...
          1. Refund_SSSR
            Refund_SSSR 27 May 2013 09: 31 New
            +2
            Sakhalin region. the city of Okha (a dwarf town).
            100 kilobits - 1,5 thousand.
            Here about these remote places ...
        3. sanych
          sanych 28 May 2013 07: 50 New
          0
          Here are the prices !!! belay I have 580r., 30 Mbps. home wired, 250r. 3 Mbps - USB modem (actually a 7 Mbit / s modem, but the operator does not pull it out. MTS) I also live in the regional center, in Irkutsk. Still, our regions vary greatly!
    2. Warrawar
      Warrawar 27 May 2013 08: 33 New
      -1
      Quote: We refund_SSSR
      This is a cold calculation for squeezing crumbs from the rich, but hard-to-reach parts of the Russian Federation.

      Bullshit! Whose is this "cold calculation", tell me specifically? This statement is from the category of "alien conspiracy against earthlings."
      The fact that everything is expensive in the Far East and people live little is due to the difficult climate and all other costs of this region. And there is nothing to be done about it. It's just a matter of common sense and no more. Look at the most populated regions of the world - these are usually the most climate-friendly countries. A striking example of this is Europe, where the climate is very mild (without differences +/- 50) and a fruitful year of 6-9 months and access to the seas and plains. It was for such lands that wars always went and the most aggressive and disciplined nations took possession of them. The Slavs from "prosperous" Europe were smoked by the Germans, because they were stronger.
      And the “difficult” regions have always remained sparsely populated, because it’s hard to live there and the powers that be simply did not go there, and hence the high cost of everything (logistics costs) and the outflow of the population (closer to the capitals).
      Remember how Russia grew these lands - Ermak arrived and dispersed the local Aboriginal people - the Chukchi. It was so simple because at that time these lands were not of great value and no one needed them by and large.
      And not what a conspiracy of "bloody Moscow gebni" is. Do not be like Ukrainians - they also blame the "oaths" for everything (although they have been independent for almost a quarter of a century).
      1. Refund_SSSR
        Refund_SSSR 27 May 2013 08: 41 New
        +9
        I’ll just tell you one phrase “northern and district allowances”, which equalized high prices due to transport costs. So the northern ones did not formally go anywhere, only in inflationary growth, prices somehow wildly overtook salaries, and now the Far Easterners get the same money as we say in Moscow, and the prices are two or three times higher.
        Whose conspiracy, so elementary thoughts say that this is the stupidity of our "effective" who want benefits today and now, not wanting to invest. More precisely, those who want to get the greatest profit with a minimum investment.
        It’s elementary to mine, and if I am not able to understand such trifles, then why should I bother explaining something more serious to you?
        Quote: Warrawar
        And the "difficult" regions have always remained sparsely populated
        over 10 years, the population has decreased from 1,5 million to 700 thousand, and this, given the total population of "Tajiks" and the like ... And what are you trying to prove to me to the Far East? What do you see in your life only on the Internet ?!
        Just because you cannot believe in something does not mean that it is not.
        1. Warrawar
          Warrawar 27 May 2013 09: 00 New
          +1
          I don’t have to explain anything, all the more “more serious”. Everything is clear here - wild costs and a region unsuitable for living, because everything is bad and everything is expensive. But we live under capitalism and steers the "invisible hand of the market", and this hand makes prices "three times higher", because the warehouse with products is somewhere near St. Petersburg, and you need to take it to Sakhalin, this amount is invested in the final price on the shelf (do not forget that the store owner will at least throw 40%).
          1. Refund_SSSR
            Refund_SSSR 27 May 2013 09: 12 New
            +6
            How can a region that is financially capable of living on self-sufficiency only through trade in resources be problematic? How? Yes, this is actually autonomy, if not a separate state! (It’s another matter that everything goes to a penny to Moscow, and returns in the form of tiny subsidies in the form of federal programs for the “development of the Far East”).
            And what kind of nonsense about extra charges? I clearly said in my opinion that the final salary is affected by the salary multiplied by the district coefficient, which means that all transport and "invisible hands of the market" should be compensated by allowances, as until recently. People went to Sakhalin for the "long" ruble! And they rebelled when Khrushchev, drunk, simply thoughtlessly joked that in September Sakhalin is hotter than in Sochi and the northern ones can be swept away. But then the fool was enlightened that the Far East could be lost in this way ... But now they really have done it.

            In other words, for the gifted: For example, bread costs 100 rubles in Moscow and 300 rubles in the Far East .. So be it, but the district coefficient. should equalize the purchasing power of people from different regions, that's just how in Moscow and in the Far East people get the same, the last ice is 10-15 ... People are fleeing from this poverty.
            How does this relate to the "effective"?
            Elementary
            :
            All the profits of company A go to the head office in Moscow, from where it is returned in the form of funds to the RFP account and this amount is strictly limited by Muscovites, how can an employer pay more on the spot than is limited by the head office?
            In the same way with state employees and with service and resource and processing enterprises.
            And you really give, that it is fair to select district? And to make people of one country, from a neighboring region, live at the expense of residents of the same country from more complex regions? In this case, I would vote for the division of the country into many small states because it is no better than slavery ... Any work, and even more so labor in difficult conditions, must be paid fully and evenly!
            1. Warrawar
              Warrawar 27 May 2013 09: 19 New
              0
              Quote: We refund_SSSR
              In this case, I would vote for the division of the country into many small states because it is no better than slavery ... Any work, and even more so labor in difficult conditions, must be paid fully and evenly!

              Ahahahah, I initially understood the meaning of this entire article. This is a bona fide separatism.
              You think before you write such nonsense next time. in Ukraine, 22 years ago, they also said that they fed Moscow, but received less than the required 3 times. And now look with them.
              This barrel organ will be eternal until Russia becomes.
              1. Refund_SSSR
                Refund_SSSR 27 May 2013 09: 20 New
                +4
                you did not understand anything...
                1. Warrawar
                  Warrawar 27 May 2013 09: 26 New
                  -3
                  On the read, maybe you will find similarities

                  http://www.nr2.ru/pict/arts1/r72/dop1/09/11/92.jpg
                  1. Refund_SSSR
                    Refund_SSSR 27 May 2013 09: 36 New
                    +2
                    the conversation is not about separatism, but about return equal purchasing power in the Far East in Moscow.
                    Or do you think that a person living outside Moscow is able to live on the same loaf of bread and everything is fair? At the same time, do state corporations have every right to receive excess profits at the expense of people's hunger?
                    1. Warrawar
                      Warrawar 27 May 2013 09: 41 New
                      +1
                      Quote: We refund_SSSR
                      the talk is not about separatism, but about the return of purchasing power equality in the Far East in Moscow

                      When they talk about dividing Russia into many small states, it is SEPARATISM, and not "the return of equal purchasing power."
                      And I have never said that lower wages at high prices are fair.
                      You just have to understand that Moscow has nothing to do with it at all. If you transfer the capital to Khabarovsk, then everything will be absolutely the same. State corporations will have superprofits and the people will not get anything.
                      I’ll tell you one more thing - there are practically no Muscovites among the bureaucrats. The president’s team is purely St. Petersburg, there are many immigrants from the Urals, Siberia, etc., but they often do not live in Russia at all.
                      1. Refund_SSSR
                        Refund_SSSR 27 May 2013 09: 55 New
                        +4
                        Speaking of Moscow, the capital is implied, and if the capital is transferred. then naturally nothing will change!
                        How much can you chew that the problem is in power, which in turn is concentrated in Moscow and the Russians do not care if they are at the helm or not, Muscovites or Ryazans ... Yes, at least Zimbabweans damn it.
                        This does not change the essence, but the essence is that the problem is in the government, and not in the remoteness of the region, because the same region managed to flourish and hold records in terms of growth in due time, under a different government.
                        The conversation about dividing into small states is a return to the fact that Medvedev blurted out somehow that it is very difficult to manage a large state. And the fact that a large state is difficult to manage is a problem of power and not of the people.
                        So what are people guilty of then? And I do not in any way prejudice, but rather try to convey that the riots also happened because of smaller problems. The people of one state are divided and the confidence of the people in the capital is lost.
                        Well, my favorite: Putin's gang under the court! laughing
                        Actually during his reign, the Far East fell even lower than during the days of Borka drunk.
                        By the way, how to explain by the laws of the market that the packaging of fish caught and packaged on Sakhalin in Moscow is MUCH CHEAPER ?! AS?! if according to all the laws of the market, transport markups are valid in both directions!
                        Or why Japanese goods and cars in Moscow are cheaper than on Sakhalin?
                        Is Japan closer ??? And there are many such examples, so the Far East does not need to explain the laws of the market, we have already studied them for a long time and we know how to survive in this country better than yours.
                      2. Stas
                        Stas 27 May 2013 13: 51 New
                        +6
                        I support. People in the Far East, Siberia, and the North (the Providence on the ship in the 90s was actually an abandoned village) were thrown by powerlessness to the mercy of fate, to survive in harsh conditions. The population runs away from these places in order to somehow survive !!!
                        There is a call here not for separatism, but for the authorities to think a little if they need these people !!! Why should the same goods be shipped from China, Korea, Japan, first to Moscow, and then back to the Far East ???
            2. mogus
              mogus 27 May 2013 10: 05 New
              +2
              By links: 2/3 of the entire currency comes from over the Urals.
              http://gnkk.ru/articles/stsenarii-razvitiya-sibiri.html
              http://gefsimany.com/?p=2842

              In Moscow, the office manager receives about 100t.r. My friends in the north of the Irkutsk region are repairing power lines, fiber. Z.p. 50-80t.r.
            3. djon3volta
              djon3volta 27 May 2013 10: 09 New
              +1
              Quote: Warrawar
              This is a bona fide separatism.
              You think before you write such nonsense next time.

              for sure! these fools live in Siberia, take a look http://nstarikov.ru/blog/15407
              On February 4, in Novosibirsk at a rally “For Fair Elections”, a group of local separatists deployed a banner with the inscription: “Democracy is self-determination,” and the flag of Independent Siberia was also hoisted.

              Today in Siberia the film “Oil in exchange for nothing” is actively promoted. The film is distributed quite actively outside of Siberia (not to mention the fact that the film is distributed among students of Novosibirsk). The idea of ​​the film is simple: “Stop feeding Russia!”. Resources are taken from Siberia and nothing is given in return.
              It’s not possible to separate the Caucasus from Russia, they are trying to begin the dismemberment of our country on the other hand.

              President Obama believes that Siberia is rich in minerals, and that the United States has unique capabilities for their development and use. Will Obama get oil in Siberia? “Absolutely not,” a White House spokeswoman said. "President Obama, by the end of his second term, wants to stop drilling oil wells around the world." Over the past six months, the United States has been quietly working to help Siberia gain independence.
            4. sergo0000
              sergo0000 27 May 2013 10: 36 New
              +9
              Quote: Warrawar
              Quote: We refund_SSSR
              In this case, I would vote for the division of the country into many small states because it is no better than slavery ... Any work, and even more so labor in difficult conditions, must be paid fully and evenly!

              Ahahahah, I initially understood the meaning of this entire article. This is a bona fide separatism.
              You think before you write such nonsense next time. in Ukraine, 22 years ago, they also said that they fed Moscow, but received less than the required 3 times. And now look with them.
              This barrel organ will be eternal until Russia becomes.

              Well, why is separatism immediately !? The banal cry of the soul and by the way is absolutely fair! The fact that the head office in Moscow takes all the money is absolutely true. Although I am not from the Far East, but also from the northern regions. an oilman or a gasman from LUKOIL or Gazprom, for example, receives 45-50 thousand rubles. At the same time, working in the field itself, in cold weather, directly extracts “blue” or “black” gold on a midges. A cleaner of the head office in Moscow of the same enterprises receives exactly the same same salary or even more! .Where is justice!? So I wrote something We will return the USSR -absolute truth!
              Quote: We refund_SSSR
              Return_SSSR (
              1. Captain45
                Captain45 27 May 2013 16: 14 New
                +5
                Quote: sergo0000
                So, in our Khanty-Mansi Autonomous Okrug and the Yamalo-Nenets Autonomous Okrug, an oilman or gasman from LUKOIL or Gazprom, for example, receives 45-50 thousand rubles. At the same time, working in the field itself, in cold weather, directly extracts “blue” or “black” gold in the midges. Cleaning the head office in Moscow, the same enterprises receive exactly the same salary or even more !.

                A similar picture is in Taimyr. Ore is being digged from us, gas is extracted from us, and money from the sale is shared in Moscow.
          2. ATATA
            ATATA 27 May 2013 10: 53 New
            0
            Quote: We refund_SSSR
            In other words, for the gifted: For example, bread costs 100 rubles in Moscow and 300 rubles in the Far East

            Have you ever bought the last time you bought bread yourself?
            Judging by your prices, the year 93 is similar.
            For example, you would first go to the store before writing nonsense and embarrassing people.
            Only for this you minus the topic and profile.
            1. Sibiryak
              Sibiryak 27 May 2013 15: 54 New
              +4
              Quote: ATATA
              Have you ever bought the last time you bought bread yourself?
              Judging by your prices, the year 93 is similar.
              For example, you would first go to the store before writing nonsense and embarrassing people.

              They are trying to explain to you that with an equal level of prices for goods, the salary level in the Far East is three times lower than in Moscow, and I think it’s an order of magnitude, and you go to the store! I’ll also offer you to go to a store in Igarka, it’s in the north of the Krasnoyarsk Territory if you aren’t in the know, and then I want to see if you will ask stupid questions later.
              1. ATATA
                ATATA 27 May 2013 16: 11 New
                +2
                Quote: Sibiryak
                They try to explain to you that with an equal level of prices for goods, the salary level in the Far East is three times less than in Moscow

                1 So you have to write like that, and not write provocative phrases that bread in the Far East is 3 times more expensive than in Moscow.
                2 And that in the USSR the inhabitants of Moscow were on an equal footing with the rest of the country?
                I lived in Tula, so we had a joke:
                "- What is green, long, does it smell like sausage?
                - An electric train from Moscow. "
                For sausage, butter, and good clothes, we went to Moscow every two weeks.
                That's how it was in the USSR.
                Both Muscovites and in the USSR did not like. The expression "Ch_M_O" went from the time of the USSR: "Чman МOskov Оblasts.
                And the USSR collapsed, including with such slogans: "We want sausages and butter!"
                The Soviet Union collapsed, and sausage and butter appeared in stores, only because they are expensive.
                Therefore, there is enough incitement. Well, where we do not.
                No need to throw slogans at the masses of Goponshchina smacks of.
                "With good intentions the road to AD is paved!"
                1. Sibiryak
                  Sibiryak 27 May 2013 17: 03 New
                  +2
                  Quote: ATATA
                  So you have to write like that, and not write provocative phrases that bread in the Far East is 3 times more expensive than in Moscow.

                  Who is to blame that you literally understand everything ??? If you read the posts of Sergey more closely, then he did not write any provocative statements and did not call for anything, but talked about the harsh reality that is currently present in our country. And yet, "3 times" - it is very easy to say!
                  Quote: ATATA
                  For sausage, butter, and good clothes, we went to Moscow every two weeks.

                  Some comparison you have is not correct, where is Tula and where is Sakhalin! I see you see you don’t catch the difference at all!
                  Quote: ATATA
                  Therefore, there is enough incitement. Well, where we do not.
                  No need to throw slogans at the masses of Goponshchina smacks of.
                  "With good intentions the road to AD is paved!"

                  That you really put everything upside down, neither who nor anyone incites to anything! Just come and live in Siberia or the Far East and you will have time to compare what is written with reality!
      2. Warrawar
        Warrawar 27 May 2013 09: 07 New
        -6
        Quote: We refund_SSSR
        over 10 years, the population has decreased from 1,5 million to 700 thousand, and this, given the total population of "Tajiks" and the like ... And what are you trying to prove to me to the Far East? What do you see in your life only on the Internet ?!
        Just because you cannot believe in something does not mean that it is not.

        What is the argument)) I'm just talking about this. The more difficult the climatic conditions, the smaller the population. 1,5 million is generally a penny, especially since it also decreased by 10 times over 2 years. This just confirms what I'm talking about.
        At the North Pole, several hundred people generally live - scientists from all over the world. And it costs more and more there every 10 times than in Moscow. And you won’t take a mortgage there, because they don’t build houses there, since the cost of such a house will be comparable to the price of a whole metropolis in Europe.
        So, after some time the population will not remain there at all - everyone will move to the European part of Russia, and they will go to work in the Far East on a rotational basis.
        1. Refund_SSSR
          Refund_SSSR 27 May 2013 09: 22 New
          +5
          You are 15? Judging by the reasoning rich in youthful maximalism, it is precisely this impression.
          The main thing is that with such considerations, the MKAD does not have to go to work on a rotational basis ... fool
          And bullshit, that the population of the whole of Russia is only 149 million? the population of the mini state of Japan is equal to the population of the Russian Federation .. so what? Muscovites are already preparing to go on duty? Or hire a Kargiz?
          Actually, what is it that we are losing land voluntarily settling them with Tajiks and Kyrgyz, and we are losing the titular population.
          And now read the beginning of the discussion about the fact that by stupidity or by conspiracy about the "cold calculation" to replace the population with a less demanding one.
          1. Warrawar
            Warrawar 27 May 2013 09: 33 New
            0
            Quote: We refund_SSSR
            And now read the beginning of the discussion about the fact that by stupidity or by conspiracy about the "cold calculation" to replace the population with a less demanding one.

            And in Moscow and St. Petersburg, in your opinion, is the population also being replaced with a “less demanding" one? It's just that almost all Kyrgyz and Tajiks are there.
            1. Z.A.M.
              Z.A.M. 27 May 2013 14: 04 New
              +3
              Quote: Warrawar
              And in Moscow and St. Petersburg, in your opinion, population is also replaced by "less demanding"?"


              I will answer, from the Leningrad region - YES. However, as elsewhere. Perhaps we have more of this rabble.
              Treating them like this - "rabble", he always warned that it is impossible:
              1. generally them here to Russia, "lure", at least legally, at least somehow;
              2. If they are already here, in no case, do not treat them like slaves and humiliate them. They will remember everything when the number exceeds 10-15% of the indigenous population, and new, equally illiterate, their children grow up.

              To the author for the article plus. Refund_SSSR - I support in everything.
              Yes and -
              Quote: We refund_SSSR
              Putin's gang under the court!
              laughing
        2. Stas
          Stas 27 May 2013 14: 07 New
          +1
          Think first, and then write! With such an approach, Russia would have long slipped into a Moscow principality. With you, the business manager is rather weak. Not everything is bought for money. The well must first be dug up, and only then take water from there. And throwing your population is the last thing!
      3. stroporez
        stroporez 27 May 2013 09: 33 New
        +5
        Quote: We refund_SSSR
        "northern and district allowances"
        --- Not a gram is felt. Prices --- exorbitant. green, vegetables --- generally “golden.” two years ago a kilogram of potato in Yamal --- 60-70 rubles. familiar, DOCTOR PEDIATRIC (with a capital letter) she said - we have absolutely healthy children NO. It is probably difficult to calculate the sales, how much money is needed to raise a healthy child.
        1. Refund_SSSR
          Refund_SSSR 27 May 2013 09: 38 New
          +1
          Well, according to some, we deserve it only because we were born here and everything is fair ...
  6. Egen
    Egen 27 May 2013 11: 01 New
    +1
    Quote: We refund_SSSR
    What are the legendary mugs in 2,5 meters tall and one and a half meters in diameter with an umbrella

    In my garden, burdocks grow only 2,1 tall :( :)
  • mogus
    mogus 27 May 2013 07: 42 New
    +9
    Well, I see, Domocles laid out, as promised. Let's see how many minuses they put, because patriotism is for everyone only for the good. And if there are problems, it’s from the evil one.
    Yes, people are leaving, and they will not return back. And the government does not want to hear about problems, but to move where, so "come in large numbers here." And we cry that Moscow (I always write with a small letter, because the farther east, the lesser the word has meaning) takes everything away, but we don’t do anything - so try to do it if zp just above 10t.r., 15t.r. generally good, 20t.r. rich?
    1. Stas
      Stas 27 May 2013 14: 12 New
      0
      You +++, support. It is time to turn around with the local population, and not ... sing.
  • bashkort
    bashkort 27 May 2013 07: 52 New
    +4
    I will say the same about the Urals. But, there is one difference. Either because we are closer to Moscow, or because of something else, we live not so extreme. We live, and that’s it!
    1. Armata
      Armata 27 May 2013 08: 50 New
      +2
      Quote: bashkort
      I will say the same about the Urals. But, there is one difference. Either because we are closer to Moscow, or because of something else, we live not so extreme. We live, and that’s it!
      Yes, about the same. The Urals and Siberia are not much different both in terms of living standards and in the nature of people. I know because I often have to go to Novosibirsk.
  • UFO
    UFO 27 May 2013 07: 57 New
    +2
    I set the minus article - I didn’t finish it very somehow, almost hopelessly. We also have Siberia, even further away, but for some reason they come more, even became a millionaire, and not everything is so sad, although life is more expensive than in Omsk. request
    1. older
      older 27 May 2013 08: 43 New
      +2
      It's just that there is no owner in our city. You are apparently lucky
    2. Irkutsk
      Irkutsk 27 May 2013 09: 10 New
      +4
      And everything is normal on Baikal. And there are always and everywhere dissatisfied, a character warehouse such
    3. Egen
      Egen 27 May 2013 11: 17 New
      +7
      Quote: UFO
      We also have Siberia, even further, but for some reason they come more, even became a millionaire, and not everything is so sad, although life is more expensive than in Omsk

      Duc, why compare :) What is our Kuzbass that your Krasnoyarsk is natural resources. It’s clear the owners in Moscow, everything flows there or there, but it falls to us as the author wrote “for the service” :)
      And they have that in Omsk, that in Novosibirsk - one city - that’s the whole region, it’s not clear what they live on. Although what the author is so, Omsk is famous for its agricultural production - at least the Omsk condensed milk is by the way even better than our Tyazhinskaya :). Near Novosib, almost all agricultural
      By the way - and Siberia is different for that matter :) Omsk and Nsk - the steppe, forest-steppe, swamps and only to the north of the taiga, and we have Kuzbass, Tomsk, Krasnoyarsk and Irkutsk - on the contrary, taiga, mountains + even the tundra :) where most of all is found :)
      As stated in one film, "everyone has their own shortcomings" :) Do not be discouraged, everywhere there is good and bad. Look, the Chinese stick to you like cockroaches, we have fewer of them, that means ....... :))
      Threat and about the road you are in vain! Yes, the quality is not very good, we have the best roads in Kuzbass :), but one tremendous +: entry into the city! Only a 1 road enters from us from Novosibirsk and 2 leaves from us - to Omsk and Barnaul (and where do you get from the swamp :))), even from Bolotny to owls. times it was not possible to accelerate, but now it would be nice to crawl 60! Well, they made a ring, _passage_ is easier and _passage_ is practically the same :( And in your Omsk there are a bunch of rotundas and three only large entrances! I have never even seen a cluster of cars! :)
  • avant-garde
    avant-garde 27 May 2013 08: 17 New
    +4
    Well, or such
  • older
    older 27 May 2013 08: 40 New
    +3
    Everything is correctly written and debated on the last hunts. And the hole in the wall, I repent, mine yes
    1. domokl
      27 May 2013 14: 28 New
      +2
      lol I wanted to post a photo from the hunt so that the people knew their heroes, but then thought ... Dear man, a site veteran and scorching angles like a rookie ... They’ll laugh ...
      1. Hleb
        Hleb 27 May 2013 14: 30 New
        +1
        faces can be covered. so interesting
        1. domokl
          27 May 2013 16: 09 New
          0
          Quote: Gleb
          faces can be covered. so interesting
          Yes, we are not so encrypted ... I agree with Odder and lay out ... Let him sit on the site laughing
  • pav-pon1972
    pav-pon1972 27 May 2013 08: 45 New
    +7
    Since 1993 I have been traveling by train Moscow (Nizhny Novgorod, Kirov, Kazan) - Khabarovsk (Spassk-Dalniy, Ussuriysk) and back. In reality, the villages along the highway are less and less. It’s especially dreary when you go after Chita ... You look out the window, it takes such a longing ...
    1. mogus
      mogus 27 May 2013 09: 03 New
      +3
      if at night you drive through the villages by car, it’s generally scary, there is no light in the windows. You see a sign that the lapel is on the village, but where is it? Once he slipped through, a friend had to, was driving at night, had to turn around. Passengers sometimes asked me: "Have we not lost our way? No lights for several hours now." Distances ... yes if in the rain. But for some reason I love night riding ...
      1. Irkutsk
        Irkutsk 27 May 2013 09: 16 New
        +3
        so people sleep at night, in the morning to work, there are no night clubs and neon signs are useless. You didn’t live in the village, they don’t burn lactricity there in vain, everyone is sleeping
        1. mogus
          mogus 27 May 2013 11: 03 New
          +1
          Good day, Irkutsk. Born and live in the village. If to the west of Chita, then there is lighting on the streets, some kind of equipment drives, lanterns in the fences, shops are lit.
  • Nayhas
    Nayhas 27 May 2013 08: 56 New
    +3
    At first I thought about Tomsk, but it turned out Omsk. When Polezhaev was just starting the city was not bad, good roads, lots of parks, fountains, and now ... And it’s true about roads and dirt, although it’s no worse than in Novosib. The metro, which they’ve been building for a decade, can be built at last, at least some happiness will prevail ...
    Hi Omicham!
    1. Refund_SSSR
      Refund_SSSR 27 May 2013 09: 00 New
      +3
      Tomsk is a very beautiful and cozy city! good drinks He lived there a couple of years (after the 400th anniversary and restoration).
      1. Egen
        Egen 27 May 2013 11: 19 New
        0
        Quote: We refund_SSSR
        Tomsk is a very beautiful and cozy city!

        beautiful yes but cozy no :)) - the streets are narrow and the road to the city is only one :))
  • taseka
    taseka 27 May 2013 09: 04 New
    +3
    And you’re sad as you read the article and joyfully that - "Patriotism begins, you know, why? Did you play war games in childhood? So it starts with the fact that snotty boys want to be ours."
  • Airman
    Airman 27 May 2013 09: 25 New
    +4
    What a pop, such is the arrival! Yesterday I put this proverb into the discussion of the article on GDP, so they zapped me. Apparently, edrosa really hurts my eyes.
  • afire
    afire 27 May 2013 09: 43 New
    10
    On the site the last few days some kind of turbidity is happening ...
    Delusional opinions are published, what are they talking about? for what - it’s not clear. And here is a military review?
    It’s just that they’ve wrapped the site with advertising ribbons from all sides, it loads even on the computer for a minute, I don’t want to talk about mobile - I opened the page and wait 10 minutes until all the ads load. What the hell?
    Moderators - are you aware that the thematic mess in a particular niche has a very bad effect on site profitability?
    Are you not enough tanks? what for you click clicked?
    Sometimes I don’t even want to check the news, as you recall what awaits on your site.
    I understand that you’ll laugh and that’s all, but turning the site into a mess of various topics, you will scare away those who you don’t earn, but who belong to the military commissar and attract the Rambler audience.
    Maybe then there was no point in creating a military site - they would have created a news portal right away and let it go, but they would have raised more on advertising ...
  • Kolyan
    Kolyan 27 May 2013 09: 46 New
    +6
    Need back to the USSR. Stop putting capitalist experiments on the country!
  • stroporez
    stroporez 27 May 2013 09: 52 New
    11
    He lived in Yamal for more than 30 years. I think I can say. SIBERIA is a STRENGTH. which is hard to imagine. who can raise and direct this STRENGTH, yet, no ......... because those who come from Moscow and St. Petersburg have a desire one thing is to take it away and separate it, grab it more ....... but a lot depends on the people. there is the city of Noyabrsk in Yamal. and so there people ask the local authorities "why," why "is not" weak. "A year ago, I moved from there to the Don, people are completely different ... the roads are broken, there are no sidewalks, but people swear under their breath and ...... everything. because, I think, it is necessary to start with the people holding the local authorities firmly behind the “piers” and making them work, Schaub's bureaucratic position was a little more comfortable than a hot pan. the position is sought by those who aim to snatch .......
  • werr17
    werr17 27 May 2013 10: 18 New
    +6
    Thanks for the good article! I myself am from Siberia and relate to this region with some special tremulous love. Even Lomonosov said: "Russia's wealth will grow Siberia"
  • Semurg
    Semurg 27 May 2013 10: 38 New
    10
    The decline in the already small population over the past two years, from two times from 20 million to 1.5 thousand is essentially a terrible figure, which is not good. side by side for a long time, they got used to each other not without roughness but more or less (as the Kazakhs say a good neighbor is better than a distant relative) I hope they will overcome this pit, I can’t believe that the people who created such a state will not find in themselves internal reserves for restoration. And still since I’m writing the advice of an outsider, it’s necessary to transfer the capital to Siberia, this gives a multiplier effect, but for this we need the will of a politician of caliber Peter 700. There will be terrible opposition, there will be laughter and mockery, we also called the NAS crazy when he announced the transfer of the capital to Astana, and now the fact of where all the detractors of the transfer have gone? are they all in jo-pe with their clever thoughts.
    1. Hleb
      Hleb 27 May 2013 17: 30 New
      0
      and what has changed from the transfer of the capital? Well, Astana has been built and so what? (while bending the periphery of the cancer to the end)
      along with the transfer of the capital to Siberia, all this political trash and emigration hordes will flood. Do you think who will be happy about this? Or will the Siberians give birth? Now they don’t know how to get rid of the Chinese, but in the case of the capital it will be like in Moscow. Really, "effect " will be..
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 27 May 2013 19: 09 New
        +2
        1) Unlike Russia, in Kazakhstan, the periphery does not bend, but develops. Not as fast, of course, as Astana, Almaty or Atyrau, but nonetheless. We have no "wild" gap.
        2) The transfer of the capital forced a lot of people to move from the former capital, and also redirected the flow from the overpopulated South to the North, where demography was awful for two reasons - population migration in the 90s to Russia and Germany, low birth rate (and sometimes negative birth rate) ) Slavic population (the same as the Russian in Russia).
        If in 1991 in Astana (Tselinograd) there were 250 thousand people, then in 2013 the number of inhabitants became 800 thousand (plus somewhere around 300 thousand unregistered, but permanent residents). Moreover, the people travel not only to Astana itself, but also to the nearby settlements of Northern Kazakhstan, correcting the demographic damage of the 90s.
        3) The birth rate in the country has increased due to rising living standards. Plus, migration to Kazakhstan is ABOVE the level of migration from Kazakhstan. Due to this, the number of residents of the republic has already exceeded the level of 1991.
        4) The construction of a new capital is a gigantic project that has become one of the locomotives of the Kazakhstani economy. Thousands of small, medium and large enterprises were opened in the country that produced products for the Big Construction. Personally, in the early 2000s, I invited representatives of KAMAZ to Kazakhstan with a proposal to create a car factory with us, because new construction projects needed trucks. And a few months later the first Kazakhstani KAMAZ trucks were manufactured. And now this plant is working with good performance. It’s not like cars, we don’t even produce nails and wallpapers in Soviet times. And now I can build a whole multi-storey building with a complete repair and furniture entirely from Kazakhstan materials. Without the New Capital project, this would not have happened, or it would not have been soon.
        Now the pace of construction of Astana has slowed, but the wound up economy has now switched to the arrangement of other cities. Now that we have created a bunch of new industries, launched a program to improve all the cities of Kazakhstan, right down to the repair of residential buildings, the state gives loans to residents, and then citizens slowly pay the cost of reconstruction of their housing. Of course, like everywhere else, there are also jambs, kickbacks, poor-quality repairs, but in general the program works. Moreover, even the construction companies that were left out of work, accumulated financial resources in order to switch to new niches - primarily agriculture. And some firms that emerged from small companies during the construction boom in Astana are already operating in the Russian market (contractors at Russian Olympic venues) as large, serious construction companies with large annual turnover.

        Well, if you do not want to transfer the capital, then with another “construction of the century”, take people in the right regions. Surely a lot more needs to be built in Russia.
        1. Hleb
          Hleb 27 May 2013 19: 32 New
          +1
          Marek, why are you hanging this on me? Well, tell those who have not been to Kazakhstan. I grew up and regularly go to my homeland. What was the rise? Yes, it was. I remember that there was no light or gas. Then everything began to improve. The city was being built. It was with the transfer of the capital that everything got up. I tell you that 18 km from the regional center, people drink water from the river. Drunkenly. They die between the ages of 30 and 50. The medicine is in full ... through me sex Kazakhstan has passed. Since friends and acquaintances go to the clinical center. Where to spend the night, where to spend. I recently buried a person in Kazakhstan. They brought me to the hospital, and the "sister" gives out what kind of clothes you’re wearing. You can’t walk and they sent to another hospital. the type of profile is not the same. and they didn’t even provide an ambulance. it’s some kind of pi ... ec. a German doctor (very highly qualified), said that if I were in the city, I would have saved.
          how much do you pay a fine for forgetting to turn on the turn signal, don’t fasten your belt, move completely? tell forum users here, let them be a little surprised. and all these fees from people went to Astana. The periphery rolls back, and Astana is being built. There is nothing to feed cattle in the village. there is compound feed in Russia, they feed bran there. Can you tell me the price of bran?
          sheer clannishness. moreover, I’m not talking about Russian-Kahakhi, it’s often not my lot.
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 27 May 2013 20: 47 New
            0
            1) What city "got up" with the transfer of the capital? Sound it. As the name of the village "18 km from the regional center."
            2) As for the water supply of villages - in Soviet times, most of the small villages did not have a water supply or telephones. Now the number of settlements where normal water appeared has increased significantly. For many years, the Taza Su and Ak Bulak programs have been operating. Imperfect programs, there were problems with transferring constructed water pipelines to the balance (local akimats refused to accept ready-made objects, because the villages they managed were very small and they could not keep these water pipelines and stations at their own expense), there were kickbacks, but in the end, most auls received normal water. I worked on the republican budget for three years and then was in the regions to watch everything with my own eyes. So do not tell horror movies. In Kazakhstan, out of 17 million people, only a few tens of thousands of people use imported water. Compared to Soviet indicators, this is a miserable one. The programs provide for bringing the indicator to 100%.
            3) Massive drunkenness - you are probably confusing this with Russia. Kazakhstanis drink much less Russians, and every year the amount of alcohol consumed decreases. Even our Russians drink relatively little. And meeting a drunken man in the afternoon is generally a difficult task.
            4) Medicine - yes, a sore point. Although, again, medicine in the Soviet times in Kazakhstan was limping on both legs. While we put medicine on its feet, it will take a lot of time.
            5) The fines in Kazakhstan are really high. And this is very good. People began to ride better, less traffic accidents, less trash on the streets. Before you drop a cigarette butt on the asphalt, you once again think about whether it is worth the risk. In South Korea, a fine for a street goby is generally $ 200. High fines are a real tool to change our psychology. BUT! It is not necessary to set up so that only due to high fines (and aimed at improving security and culture) is Astana being built. In the end, the capital was moved to the 90s, and fines were raised only a couple of years ago.
            6) If the hands are from the ass, then there really is nothing to feed the cattle. I, like the Kazakh, most of my relatives live in the village. No one has problems with livestock feed. Do I not know this question, if I constantly visit them for meat. At the bazaars, Kazakhs rarely buy meat, most of them are received from relatives from the villages. Ask any Kazakh on the site. The village feeds itself, and numerous relatives from the city.
            7) And which clans dominate in our country? Do not tell? And from what zhuz Marchenko, Bakhmutov, Korzhov, Shkolnik, Petrov (from the Ministry of Emergencies), Petrov (from the Ministry of Defense), Rogov, Dyachenko, Rau, Merkel, Lukin, Kulagin, Meister, Bozhko, Masimov and hundreds of other large non-Kazakh officials in office? I will no longer recall other surnames such as Khrapunov, Otto, Dernovoy, Ryabtsev, Brown, Tereshchenko, and others. Which clans are they from? And note - these are the names from the highest apparatus of state administration.

            All that is missing is the phrase about how you were oppressed in Kazakhstan and not allowed to live and work.
            1. Hleb
              Hleb 27 May 2013 21: 00 New
              0
              Speech about Petropavlovsk in particular.
              in Soviet times, most small villages did not have any water supply
              I don’t care if the majority or not. I’m talking about a specific village. There were columns, the track was always in Soviet times.
              tell these tales about clean water programs to your neighbor.
              And meeting a drunken man in the afternoon is generally a difficult task.
              are you writing from Mars?
              Sound the fines? What do you think is normal, I'm not surprised anymore
              Sound the prices of bran?
              to prove to you visually? I recently did this when you said that hazing is not in Kazakhstan. you turned out to be a balabol again.
              1. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 27 May 2013 22: 08 New
                +2
                1) Information - Industry of Petropavlovsk for 2012:
                The volume of industrial production amounted to 81,2 billion tenge.

                For January – March 2013, industrial enterprises of the city produced industrial products in 22,1 billion tenge.
                Compared to the same period last year, the IPO in the manufacturing industry is 110,4%, the volume of production is 13,9 billion tenge.
                The volume of food production in January – March 2013 amounted to 7,1 billion tenge, IFO - 108,5%.
                Light industry produced products worth 193,7 million tenge, which is 2012 times more than the same period in 1,3. Increased production: working clothes - 7,8 times, textile products - 3,3 times. In the production of leather and related products, shoes, leather goods and leather semi-finished products were produced by 8,2 million tenge, which is 14,8 times more than the corresponding period last year.
                In the volume of industrial production of the city, the production of wooden products occupies 0,8%. In the 1st quarter of 2013, products amounted to 180,3 million tenge, with an increase of 2012 times by 1,7.
                In the production of rubber and plastic products, products were produced in the 1st quarter of 2013 by 403,8 million tenge, with an increase of 2012 times over the same period in 1,6.
                In the production of other non-metallic mineral products this year products amounted to 131,2 million tenge, which is 1,7 times more than the corresponding period last year.
                In urban volume of industrial production, the share of engineering is 21,5%. The volume of production amounted to 4,8 billion tenge, IFO - 124,2%.
                Increased production of oilfield equipment (1,3 times), parts of drilling machines (1,2 times), parts and accessories for automobiles (2,8 times).

                Report on Petropavlovsk for the last 2012 - http://www.petropavl.sko.kz/rus/index.php?pid=otchetnyi_doklad_akima_goroda_petr
                opavlovska_2013

                2) Tales about water - only in your head. You can search the Internet for articles on this topic. You will find critical articles in the opposition media, but nevertheless a general idea will emerge.
                Although this is very characteristic of "refugees", it is obstinate to believe that life in Kazakhstan stopped with their departure.

                3) You can also see fines in the internet. The fact that Russia has low fines for violations of traffic rules and for garbage on the streets is stupid. But at the same time think about whether there is a connection between severe punishment for this and a decrease in the number of offenses in this area.

                4) Do not suck in that Kazakhstan supposedly thumps more than Russia. This is generally not funny. Of course, we are far from Saudi Arabia, but we are very far from Russian drunkenness.

                5) Once again I say that the normal owner is always in abundance of cattle feed. There are enough cattle in the villages. Not only ourselves enough (except chicken), but also preparing to start exporting to Russia within a few years. In all regions, the state is building for this additional production capacities (feed, meat processing, etc.).

                6) There is practically no hazing in Kazakhstan. Everything happens, as in any army in the world, but there has been no total hazing for a long time. And you can not shove me the news, I do not miss absolutely no military notes on Kazakhstan. And moreover, I regularly visit military units of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Ministry of Internal Affairs (on my own business). I have a significant part of my relatives serving in law enforcement agencies - from rank and file and cadets to colonels, and personal acquaintances up to the first leaders. I know how the military is served today excellent.
                Z.Y. What did you do? When did you prove something to me?
            2. Hleb
              Hleb 27 May 2013 21: 14 New
              0
              is it a prosperous Kazakhstan? where they put a couple of bags of flour in order to brush it off. do not people starve?
              I will repeat the video.
              1. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 27 May 2013 22: 51 New
                0
                Do not flip everything. In the event of the death of a soldier, the state pays the normal amount in compensation. The leadership of the unit, on its own initiative, added food from itself. This is a private initiative.
                Well, and the fact that the parents of the hanged soldier do not believe in suicide, well, so when will the parents believe in the suicide of their child? Even if there was a video recording, they would still prefer to assume that SOMETHING is to blame, but not their son. This is a 18-year-old kid who can lay hands on himself for unhappy love, for failure to study, for lack of authority in the team, etc. In civilian life, is it that young people do not hang themselves out of stupidity?

                In addition, it’s not entirely clear to me what your phrases are about supposedly starving people? Once again I explain - food is a private initiative of officers to help the family. Monetary compensation is not allocated by the military unit, but by the government represented by the Ministry.

                Regarding this particular case, THREE THAN, at the request of the parents, they carried out a medical examination, and in all three cases the answer was one - suicide. But parents do not calm down, and as usual, a "professional survivor" from the Committee of Soldiers' Mothers adds fuel to the fire, persuading them to sue the Moscow Region, because in case of victory, it will have a percentage (as it participates in the work of the court). The amount of the claim, which she recommends 10-15 million tenge (up to 100 thousand dollars). Now it’s clear why, in all tragic cases, the chairman of the Committee of Mothers is spinning? This is a tragedy for the soldier’s parents, and for her - work and salary. We had no cases where the soldier did not die, and she did not interfere with the claim.

                In short, I understand that I explain this to a blank wall that does not want to hear anything. You are not the first "refugee", but everyone’s brains are built the same for you - a stubborn desire to see Kazakhstan in ruins, and people in rags. And forever crocodile tears "what a wonderful Soviet Kazakhstan was, and how Kazakhs shook it ...".

                By the way, why are you dangling in Kazakhstan? Nothing to do? You seem to have "survived" from here? There is no life here, hunger, cold. What back ride? Or are you, as a typical "refugee" of your parents, left to the "nationalists" to tear to pieces? There are many refugees who left their parents in the KZ - Vladsolo, Jtsuken, and someone else. I just can’t get into how they can sleep peacefully, leaving their parents in the country of "frenzied nationalism and poverty" ...
                1. Egen
                  Egen 28 May 2013 08: 31 New
                  +2
                  I’ll stick in a little about Kazakhstan from my point of view :) Your Karaganda-rubber technology, coupled with Saran-rubber technology, in our Siberia has practically replaced other manufacturers of conveyor belts. There was a production complex in Kemerovo: Nitrogen made caprolactam, distributed it half a city to Khimvolokno, where they made a good polyamide thread 187 tex, and it was through a fence at KShT where they made fabric for conveyor belts. Then it was sent to the Ural RTI for impregnation, the impregnated there was turned into a finished conveyor belt.
                  Now yours ousted Uralsky, its share well, somewhere around 5-10% of the tapes remained. The share of Polish tapes is also under 10-15%, and Belarusians occupy the same amount somewhere, the rest are Kazakhs, and after all they started only% with 5. At our place, Nitrogen began to produce fertilizers more, Chemical fiber was already pulled away for spare parts, KWT tissue pressure was also closed. Total for the Urals nothing of this in the Russian Federation has remained.
                  On the one hand, this shows that the Kazakhs are well done. But let's look at their merits in this matter.
                  The whole chip of commercial success is that they first began to take Chinese threads 187PA and 167-330PE, whose strength is 10% higher, respectively, they can reduce the cost. Then they began to take simply ready-made Chinese fabrics impregnated under the conveyor belt and only apply rubber. And that's it, telemarket - the price is lower, your market. In Russia, this did not work because of the longer delivery distance.
                  Therefore, on the 1 side, Kazakhs are great, what can you do - the market, but on the other hand, their benefit turned into a collapse in the Russian Federation and, by and large, the Kazakhs help / promote China, and not even themselves, because only 1 operations are performed at home, and if the Chinese want to enter our market with ready-made tapes and certify them (they simply don’t want because of the small size of our market by their standards, how many conversations I did not have with them :)), then the Kazakhs just find themselves in ... unnecessary :)
                  1. Marek Rozny
                    Marek Rozny 28 May 2013 08: 59 New
                    0
                    Well, here is purely business, of course. In some industries, your enterprises have been ours, somewhere ours, and where, and generally, distant Belarusians dominate. For example, in terms of dairy products.
                    Many enterprises in the KZ open at first as screwdrivers, but the government forces everyone to work on localization so as not to depend on foreign allies.
                    In addition, in Kazakhstan it is more profitable to conduct production than in Russia, because our tax burden is lower, and our bureaucratic barriers are significantly less. And according to all sorts of bourgeois competitiveness and doing business ratings, we have already overtaken Russia, although a few years ago Russia stood at higher positions in them.
                    Since last spring, the Russian government has been thinking about the difference in economic laws with us, it seems they are going to introduce amendments to the laws in order to put Russian business in more favorable conditions than in the KZ. I can only wish the Russians that this will happen faster. The bad economy in the ally and partner country is not needed by the Kazakhs.
          2. Alibekulu
            Alibekulu 27 May 2013 23: 55 New
            +5
            Here, in parallel, the theme of "VO" - "Is there a future for the Russian village?" http://topwar.ru/28544-est-li-buduschee-u-russkoy-derevni.html
            The question is simple: - "And what is better in a Russian village than in a Kazakh village (aul) ?? !!
            Quote: Gleb
            medicine in full w ... ne
            Well, as in Kazakhstan, so immediately and ... pa. You "former" Kazakhstanis, speaking in medical language, have general symptoms ...
            Quote: Gleb
            continuous clan
            But the Russian Federation is clean, smooth and truncated by the way ?? !! what Shoigu's daughter where works ?? And, you can throw as many examples as you like .. like about Kazakhstan, but about Russia .. You can remember about the St. Petersburg clan (or zhuz repeat ??) .. Yeltsin's "family" is generally a classic ..
            P.S. What is interesting on other topics is the "former", as a rule, reason reasonably .. but how it comes about Kazakhstan ... wink
        2. vaddy72
          vaddy72 28 May 2013 01: 38 New
          -2
          "We don’t have cars, we didn’t even produce nails and wallpapers in Soviet times." It's not even a lie, it's some kind of absurdity
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 28 May 2013 02: 48 New
            +2
            Well, tell us about the building materials produced in the Kazakh SSR. Willingly ready to listen.
        3. vaddy72
          vaddy72 28 May 2013 02: 09 New
          0
          "And now I can build a whole multi-storey building with a complete repair and furniture entirely from Kazakhstan materials .. the established economy has now switched to the arrangement of other cities. Now that we have created a bunch of new industries .." What industries? Production of building materials? This is in return for the ugly mechanical engineering - heavy, mining, transport, agricultural, tractor, metallurgical, aviation, electrical? Instead of producing sophisticated weapons systems for the ground forces, missiles, missile systems, ballistic missile rocket engines, self-propelled launchers, military instrumentation? Instead of a unique chemical industry? How much will the "wound up economy" stretch for painting porches and patching roofs? Economy - is it paying residents to repair a house? Is this the goal of everything? I will say how long it will last - until the oil runs out, i.e. not for long
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 28 May 2013 03: 52 New
            +2
            Quote: vaddy72
            in exchange for the whacked mechanical engineering ...

            1) Let's talk about mechanical engineering in the Kazakh SSR. Equipment for the extraction of raw materials (and is now being produced, look at least at PZTM), agricultural machinery - the Pavlodar tractor never worked at full design capacity even in Soviet times, after the collapse of the USSR, its products became instantly obsolete. Agricultural machinery in Kazakhstan began to be produced again and the scale is growing - machinery licensed by modern Russian and Western manufacturers. Kostanays in this regard are generally well done. And everything else was produced in small doses by small enterprises, which, in the conditions of breaking economic ties and being dependent on Russian components, were corny dead.
            What about aircraft, electrical and transport engineering - what do you mean? Which plant? It seems to me that you just wrote the text indistinctly from somewhere)))
            As for the military-industrial complex, the production of missiles was not ruined by the Kazakhs, but Moscow, by signing the relevant documents with the Americans back in Soviet times. And the production of the rest of the military not only did not decrease, but even increased. Go to the Kazakhstan Engineering website and look at the product range of enterprises included in this holding. Yes, we don’t make Cliff machine guns, but we have already stamped them so much that you can booty them. But they began to make ships for the Navy, armored vehicles, automotive vehicles, fire extinguishers, small aircraft and much more. And no need to moan about the "screwdriver assembly" - localization is already at a good level and growth is ongoing.
            Locomotives, which we already sell to the Baltic States and Asia, already comprise 30–40% of Kazakhstan parts. By the way, in Soviet times, tractors were assembled not from Kazakhstan parts, but from parts of allies from neighboring republics, as well as much more.
            And before you groan about the "lost" industry, do not remember what was sold in the Kazakh SSR in stores from domestic Kazakhstani products? Medeo cigarettes, vodka, bread, sugar, salt, a three-liter can of juice, a piece of fabric from the AHBC, a Medeo radio (from the late 80s, but expensive and almost in short supply), some clothes (and not always that) - socks / coats / boots / galoshes / earflaps, carpet path. If you had friends in the army, then you could get hold of the Semipalatinsk stew in solid oil. That’s basically all.
            All consumer goods we had in Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Uzbek, Baltic production.
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 28 May 2013 03: 53 New
              +1
              The economy of the Kazakh SSR was mainly raw. Industrial output was extremely low. And compared with neighboring republics (even Uzbekistan) - generally miserable.
              Want to return Soviet factories and their products? I found a bunch of Soviet products in the garage a few years ago. Nostalgia was five minutes, and then I realized that, thank God, I did not use them. An exception is cast iron utensils (Made in the RSFSR and the Uzbek SSR).
              To cry that we destroyed the mythical Kazakhstan radio electronics or something else like this is stupid. In Kazakhstan, we did not deal with the development of these things; it was usually developed somewhere else in other regions of the USSR. In the three-programmer Medeo - there was practically nothing of ours. Only the case and a couple of uncomplicated elements. Radio electronics died in Russia, and we automatically kicked in.
              Etc.
              And the fact that they brought the economy is good. By the way, the amers launched their economy during the Depression also after the Big Construction - Hoover Dam. Then, too, everyone was thinking, what's the point of building some kind of giant dam when the country is in the railroad? They started the flywheel, and then by the beginning of WWII they already had all the prerequisites for building up the industry.
              Well, if you are only counting on oil, unlike our government, then don’t worry, oil is not only not going to run out from us, Big Kazakh Oil has not yet begun to be produced. Kashagan is yet to come. So if soaped up somewhere, then take your time laughing We have not even become an oil power)))) There is only preparation for such a status))))
      2. Semurg
        Semurg 27 May 2013 22: 45 New
        +3
        Quote: Gleb
        and what has changed from the transfer of the capital? Well, Astana has been built and so what? (while bending the periphery of the cancer to the end)
        along with the transfer of the capital to Siberia, all this political trash and emigration hordes will flood. Do you think who will be happy about this? Or will the Siberians give birth? Now they don’t know how to get rid of the Chinese, but in the case of the capital it will be like in Moscow. Really, "effect " will be..

        One example, all the trash and the horde wants to eat, so in the district you need to raise the agricultural workers, and who will raise the youth who are now leaving for Moscow, and if people have stable jobs and live on the land, they will probably start giving birth to children. And such examples are likely You can bring a lot. Well, if Astana (which bent the periphery with cancer) hurts, we’ll write St. Petersburg which gave impetus to the development of the whole north-west of Russia. Well, if you write, you’re afraid that political trash will come (to call your state power to be trash?), an emigration wave (will their youth go for their chance?), the Chinese (why not Russians?), then you need to sit and do nothing.
        1. vaddy72
          vaddy72 28 May 2013 02: 15 New
          0
          And according to Marek Rozny, Astana did not bend the whole periphery with cancer, but "started the economy." But Aktau and Atyrau smoke aside ..
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 28 May 2013 04: 06 New
            +1
            You did not understand the irony of Semurg. The phrase "cancer has bent the periphery" is not him, but Gleb. In his opinion (Gleb), in Kazakhstan there is rampant drunkenness, hunger and other horrors.
            But Atyrau you still mentioned here in vain. Off topic. Commodity money "does not start the economy", they can only arrange the "Dutch disease." The economy is being launched by large infrastructure projects, coupled with reasonable legislation, taxation, and everything else.
        2. Hleb
          Hleb 28 May 2013 11: 37 New
          0
          then in the district you need to raise s.kh

          much has been raised in the Moscow region? read what they write here who live near the capital. maybe people live better in the environs of St. Petersburg? and how does the industrial Urals give way to Moscow or Peter? what kind of agriculture? will it revive from the transfer of the capital? and about emigrants too ask the Muscovites. they will explain to you what they think about the Ravshans. I'm not talking about the cut sheep in the squares.
  • Kolyan
    Kolyan 27 May 2013 12: 12 New
    +2
    And Muscovites consider Siberians fools, because they live in the cold and have nothing to do with it. They are still surprised when separatist sentiments in Siberia grow.
    1. Hleb
      Hleb 27 May 2013 12: 22 New
      +4
      and in the army, for example, they were always considered Muscovites to be whiners. And what separatist sentiments are we talking about?
      1. Kolyan
        Kolyan 27 May 2013 14: 25 New
        0
        And here the article was recently about Siberia.
        1. Hleb
          Hleb 27 May 2013 14: 29 New
          +2
          I didn’t read. But in our city there are no swamp rallies. The authorities are not going to overthrow. So, the Communists will go on holidays. The rally against the construction of a silicon factory. No, I have not heard about separatism
      2. vaddy72
        vaddy72 28 May 2013 02: 29 New
        -2
        Correctly. Panicer and all-crawler Domocles - snot
    2. Garrin
      Garrin 27 May 2013 19: 20 New
      +1
      Quote: Kolyan
      And Muscovites consider Siberians fools, because they live in the cold and have nothing to do with it.

      Are you a Muscovite?
  • domokl
    27 May 2013 12: 14 New
    +3
    I didn’t think that the first comment would get to the point ... Indeed, I described Omsk. But I didn’t specifically give the exact address, simply because such a situation is not in one region, but in almost all of Siberia and the Far East, with the exception of maybe the Tyumen region and the Khanty-Mansiysk Territory.
    1. Nayhas
      Nayhas 27 May 2013 12: 17 New
      +2
      There are no particularly dirty industries in Tomsk, although there is Seversk, but it is still far from the city, with the taiga around. And Tomsk is really a city of students, many universities. True, the streets are narrow, cramped, and the city is beautiful, probably the most beautiful in Siberia.
      1. Egen
        Egen 27 May 2013 16: 20 New
        0
        Quote: Nayhas
        There are no particularly dirty industries in Tomsk

        and TNHK type very far out of town? :))
        1. Nayhas
          Nayhas 27 May 2013 20: 25 New
          0
          Yes next, just do not compare it with the same Neftyanniks in Omsk, KRAZ in Krasnoyarsk, and even about Novokuznetsk and Kemerovo in general it is not worth mentioning. Tomsk in Siberia is the cleanest city, only when the taiga burned last year, the Tomsk citizens were terribly ...
    2. Stas
      Stas 27 May 2013 14: 25 New
      +2
      Thank you for the article! I recognize in it the Far Eastern regions. We must be able not only to rejoice for the country, but also to fix problems that have long been ripe for us. Information is not only for the authorities, but also for all who care about the homeland.
  • Eric
    Eric 27 May 2013 12: 58 New
    +1
    What do you!? Brothers! We rise from our knees ... Only no one knows about it ...
  • varov14
    varov14 27 May 2013 13: 13 New
    +3
    For some reason, the garden city turned into a landfill with patching roads, but it’s very simple - the enterprises collapsed and handed over for scrap, but those who work taxes pay in Moscow or in general somewhere in Cyprus. This is a widespread disaster. Moscow, like a tick, has snickered, there is no fire on it. And they still complain about high prices - empty money, such and such prices, but they slave labor for 5 thousand, slave labor. In Arguments, Ustinova dismissed the snot among migrant workers, living in Russia without seeing. But the flock of binoculars is multiplying, although there is also some kind of work, a piece of bread and butter in the family. The less responsible the authority, the more managers, each superior wants to transfer his functions to a lower one, but well, as always, some nameless clerk for 10000 rubles does the job, at best, there’s demand from him.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Hleb
    Hleb 27 May 2013 14: 17 New
    0
    Americans about Siberia and not only
  • Kolyan
    Kolyan 27 May 2013 14: 24 New
    0
    Quote: Gleb
    what kind of separatist sentiments are we talking about?


    And here the article was recently about Siberia.
  • Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 27 May 2013 14: 26 New
    +4
    I immediately realized that we were talking about Omsk)
    There is something to be said about the emblems and the Kirghiz. The fortress wall was really depicted on the first coat of arms of Omsk at the end of the 18th century, since Omsk was actually a military base surrounded by uncontrolled Kazakhs (or, as they said then, the Kyrgyz). However, at the beginning of the 19th century, the Omsk region was formed (before that, Omsk belonged to the Tobolsk province). And the emblem of the Omsk region was a Kazakh in military equipment:
    “The shield, which has a red field, depicts a rider in Asian clothes on a white horse, galloping to the left and holding a bow stretched behind an arrow, and a quiver with arrows behind his back” (1825).
    And in 1854-1868, Omsk was already the center Regions of the Siberian Kyrgyz (Kazakhs). The region was formed after the division of Kyrgyz lands (present-day Kazakhstan) between the Siberian and Orenburg departments. Well, before the revolution, Omsk was the capital of the Akmola region (the current metropolitan area of ​​Kazakhstan, if anyone does not know).

    So do not hint that the Kazakhs are “leftist people” in Omsk and focus on the fact that Omsk is a “fortress from Kazakh migrants”. Kazakhs in Omsk are an indigenous autochthonous population, and in this respect they cannot even be compared with Germans-exiles or other migrants of all nationalities.
    1. domokl
      27 May 2013 14: 41 New
      +3
      And what was wrong about talking about the emblem? The fact that they didn’t give a detailed answer, how did you get the answer? So there wasn’t such a task ... People just talked about life ... By the way, in the description of the emblem it was said so directly- means a fortress to protect against the Kyrgyz
      Thanks for the help.
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 27 May 2013 14: 50 New
        +3
        But the whole article is a plus. It is very vividly written, the feeling that I myself am chatting with these people. Yes, and many of our problems are similar (but about the mentality and climate - I’m not saying at all, I’m a neighbor from Astana))))
  • Marek Rozny
    Marek Rozny 27 May 2013 14: 45 New
    +4
    And the second observation, Panfilov’s division was formed from residents of the Almaty region, not Omsk. And in October-November 1941, there were no Siberian divisions near Moscow. In reality, there was only the aforementioned 316th Almaty SD and 312nd Aktobe SD. Plus, a few days later divisions appeared from the Far East, and only then, at the beginning of 1942, the Siberians. But, if I’m not mistaken, by November 1941, not a single unit from Omsk was directly at the walls of Moscow. At this time, only one battalion of communications managed to arrive at the disposal of the first shock army. I can be mistaken in this, but Panfilov’s definitely have nothing to do with Omsk.
    1. baltika-18
      baltika-18 27 May 2013 17: 34 New
      0
      Quote: Marek Rozny
      And the second observation, Panfilov’s division was formed from residents of the Almaty region,

      Well, here you are not quite right. It was formed not only from residents of Alma-Ata and the region, but also from Frunze residents. The national composition as a percentage of the Kyrgyz is 11%, Kazakhs 11%, Russians 67%, Ukrainians 8%, 3 % -other nationalities.
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny 27 May 2013 18: 05 New
        +2
        Absolute rubbish regarding the percentage composition. The personnel of the 316th SD formed in July-August 1941 in Alma-Ata consisted of 11347 people. Russians - 4460 people, Kazakhs - 3556, the rest - Ukrainians, Uzbeks, Tatars, Tajiks, Turkmens, Belarusians.
        As for Kyrgyzstan, it was Panfilov himself who was from there, in Frunze he was a military commissar, but was sent to Alma-Ata to form a division from among the residents of the Alma-Ata region. And the second attitude towards Kyrgyzstan is that after the war it was stationed in the Kyrgyz SSR (it is still there).

        And your numbers are not clear where they came from. Either these are the numbers taken after the battles near Moscow (replenishment later came from the Russian regions) or these are OTHER 316th rifle divisions of other formations, one of which died, and the other under this number "316" fought until Victory.
        1. baltika-18
          baltika-18 27 May 2013 18: 26 New
          0
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          As for Kyrgyzstan, it was Panfilov himself who was from there, in Frunze he was a military commissar, but was sent to Alma-Ata to form a division from among the residents of the Alma-Ata region. And the second attitude towards Kyrgyzstan is that after the war it was stationed in the Kyrgyz SSR (it is still there).

          Alma-Ata-1075 Rifle Regiment
          The villages of Nadezhdinskaya and Sofiyskaya-1073 rifle regiment
          The city of Frunze-1077 rifle regiment, was formed in schools number 2, number 12 on Klyuchevaya street Frunze city (Bishkek)
          The place of formation of the 857 artillery regiment is not known to me.
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 28 May 2013 02: 00 New
            +1
            Quote: baltika-18
            Alma-Ata-1075 Rifle Regiment
            The villages of Nadezhdinskaya and Sofiyskaya-1073 rifle regiment
            The city of Frunze-1077 rifle regiment, was formed in schools number 2, number 12 on Klyuchevaya street Frunze city (Bishkek)
            The place of formation of the 857 artillery regiment is not known to me.

            This is what the Russian “historians” are composing, as well as the percentage ratio according to the nationalities, in order to make the Panfilov’s “more Slavic”.

            The real names of the regiments in the fall of 1941:

            1073th Talgar Rifle Regiment
            1075th Kaskelen rifle regiment
            1077th Kyrgyz Rifle Regiment

            An example from the book of Alexander Beck "Volokolamsk highway": "In these two months we, the first battalion of the Talgar regiment, took thirty-five fights; at one time were the reserve battalion of General Panfilov; entered into a fight, as it should be, in desperately difficult moments; fought near Volokolamsk, near Istra, near Kryukov; overcame and drove the Germans. "
            You will now blame Bek for Kazakh distortion of history.

            And the ears of the "village" names grow clearly from where: the Sofia village, established in 1858, was located on the site of the Kazakh settlement of Talgar, known since the early Middle Ages. And now 24 Cossack families are exhibited by the founders of this settlement, although it is mentioned in chronicles from the 10th century.
            But apparently the “discoverer” of the village names in the Panfilov division clearly knew the history of Kazakhstan and its geography, and therefore confused the Cossack name Kaskelena - "Lyubavinskaya" - with another village "Nadezhdinskaya". And so he managed to get burned on his lies by calling the Kaskelen regiment “Nadezhdinsky”, although logically it was necessary to call then “Lyubavinsky”. By the way, Kaskelen existed before the arrival of Russian Cossacks. And this name itself has remained from the time of the Kazakh-Dzungarian wars, this is the name of the Dzungarian batyr. Cossack artificial names did not take root, and even at the dawn of Soviet power, the historical names Kaskelen and Talgar were returned. And in these settlements, the Russians certainly were never the majority. My relatives live in Kaskelen, including my parents. Even under Khrushchev and Brezhnev - the main population there was Kazakh, and even more so before the war.

            And the name "Kyrgyz Regiment" in relation to 1077 joint ventures was given because indeed part of the regiment was Kyrgyz, but the regiment was finally staffed by residents of the Alma-Ata region.

            And in addition to the three regiments, naturally, other divisions of the division were formed:
            589 separate anti-aircraft artillery division,
            203 reconnaissance company,
            597 combat engineer battalion,
            762 separate communications battalion,
            242 health battalion,
            395 separate chemical protection company,
            291 motor company,
            445 field bakery,
            688 Division Veterinary Hospital
            993 field postal station.
        2. domokl
          27 May 2013 18: 32 New
          0
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          Absolute rubbish regarding the percentage composition.

          Dear Marek, once you had to answer the mek, you have to answer the second one. Have you read the article carefully? Where does it say that the Panfilov division was FORMED in Omsk? Kazakhstan.
          In my opinion, you have a painful attitude to everything Kazakh ... Nobody is against the Kazakhs and Kazakhstan, and now we are not talking about our relationship ...
          And last, on the coat of arms of Omsk in 2002, the serf camp of the Kyrgyz line was painted again .. We returned to the elements of the first coat of arms
          1. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 27 May 2013 18: 53 New
            +1
            But how did she go to the front from Omsk? except that they were passing through. What is the relationship between the division formed in Alma-Ata and Omsk? There were divisions that were formed from among the residents of the border regions of the RSFSR and KazSSR (for example, residents of Western Kazakhstan were called up to divisions formed in the Russian Urals, etc.), but Omsk residents had nothing to do with the Panfilov division.
            Why the phrase "was sent precisely from Omsk" if the division there could only be a passage? Just the myth that the Siberians defended Moscow at the end of 1941 is time to forget. Yes, the Siberians showed their steel character in other sectors of the front, but they have almost nothing to do with the defense of Moscow. I myself am ready to speak with pleasure about the Russian Siberian character, about the masculinity of the Siberians, but why should I add the Siberians to what they have nothing to do with? They have enough other merits and feats.

            Regarding the coat of arms - I know that the coat of arms of the city has changed, becoming closer to the historical one. But, as far as I know, the regional emblem is also going to be returned to the pre-revolutionary image of the Asian horseman that was before, although with changes, of course.
            And if before the fortress on the emblem of the city meant that Omsk was at the forefront of the border struggle, now now this wall was returned to the emblem because of the "it was painted like that before." We understand that there is no real border between Kazakhstan and Russia. And in general, we are moving to a new Union.
            1. baltika-18
              baltika-18 27 May 2013 19: 26 New
              0
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              the myth that the Siberians defended Moscow at the end of 1941 is time to forget

              Again wrong. Omsk-362,364 divisions.
              Tyumen-368,384 divisions, Novosibirsk-370 divisions, Altai-372,380 divisions, Tomsk-366, Kuzbass-376, Krasnoyarsk-374,378,382 divisions.
              Separate infantry brigades 43,44,45,71,72 in Novosibirsk and Krasnoyarsk. This is the formation of the second wave. The first was part of the 25th army.
              The fact that I bring the data is far from complete.
              1. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 27 May 2013 21: 24 New
                +2
                Were these divisions in the fall and in December 1941 at the walls of Moscow?
                362nd SD - "The first battle was taken directly from the march 15.02.1942 three kilometers south-east of Nelidov (Tver region) ...
                364th SD - The army entered the 01.03.1942 ...
                368th SD - fought the whole war in the Finnish direction in Karelia.
                384th SD - the first battle since February 16 in the area of ​​Demyansk - Staraya Russa ...
                370th SD - fought until 1944 near Leningrad
                372nd SD - fought near Leningrad
                380th SD - the first battles in February 1942
                366 - the first battles in January 1942 near Leningrad
                376 - the first battle 30.12.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX near Leningrad
                374 - the first battle of January 7, 1942 near Leningrad
                378 - the first battle of January 7, 1942 near Leningrad
                382 - the first battles - January 1942 near Leningrad

                Etc. So which of the Siberians participated in the Battle of Moscow?
                1. baltika-18
                  baltika-18 27 May 2013 22: 38 New
                  0
                  Quote: Marek Rozny
                  So which of the Siberians participated in the Battle of Moscow?

                  24th Army (100,107,120,127 divisions).
                  78,258,119,133,32 rifle divisions became the guard divisions after the battle of Moscow.
                  The battle for Moscow was attended by 20 divisions formed in Siberia.
                  1. Marek Rozny
                    Marek Rozny 28 May 2013 00: 51 New
                    +1
                    100 SD - the first formation in Ukraine, the second formation in Vologda.
                    107 sd - a "pre-war" division, formed in Altai, took part in battles from the very beginning of the war, but already in mid-September it was put into reserve due to heavy losses near Yelnya. In the "Battle for Moscow" (which began on September 30) did not take part.
                    120 SD - the first formation in Orel, the second - in Kazan.
                    127 SD - the first formation in Kharkov, The combat period of the second formation: 12.7.42-15.1.43
                    78 sd - was formed in Tomsk in 1932, but before the war it was transferred to the Far East. The war found the division in Ussuriysk, so that it can only conditionally be considered Siberian.
                    258 sd - formed in Orel
                    119 SD - formed in Krasnoyarsk. In battles since July 41st. Retreated to 30.10. to the Volga, where it was before the start of the Kalinin operation.
                    133 sd - formed in Novosib, the main part of the division fought near Kalinin, the combined "detachment" of several battalions - near Moscow (Ruza), as a result of the retreat, the commander of the combined detachment was shot. The main part of the division was transferred to Moscow after the end of the defensive part of the battle for Moscow and took part in the offensive phase of the operation (with new replenishment in exchange for losses near Kalinin)
                    32 sd - the first formation - the Volga Military District in 1922, in the pre-war time it was located in the Far East; second formation - Murom
                    1. Marek Rozny
                      Marek Rozny 28 May 2013 11: 45 New
                      +3
                      Quote: baltika-18
                      Separate infantry brigades 43,44,45,71,72 in Novosibirsk and Krasnoyarsk. This is the formation of the second wave. The first was part of the 25th army.

                      43 sd - The division was formed in the Leningrad Military District in 1924-1925. On June 22.06.1941, XNUMX, it was stationed in Enso (Svetogorsk).
                      43 GSD - formed on 5.10.1942 by transforming the 201st Latvian Rifle Division.
                      44 SD - the first formation - in Ukraine; the second formation is based on the 3rd Guards Division of the Leningrad People’s Militia on September 24, 1941.
                      44 GSD - formed on 05.10.1942/5/XNUMX by transforming the XNUMXth Vitebsk Infantry Division (formed in Penza, it met the war on the Neman).
                      45 SD - the first formation - in Ukraine, the second formation - in Karelia
                      71 sd - formed in Petrozavodsk
                      71 GSD - formed on 01.03.1943/23/1922 by transforming the 1935rd Infantry Division (in turn, this division was formed in XNUMX as the Zavolzhsky SD, and since XNUMX it was subordinate to the Kharkov Military District).
                      72 sd - formed in December 1941 on the basis of the 7th Marine Brigade. She participated in the Tosno-Mginsky operation in 1943.
                      72 GSS is another legendary division formed in Kazakhstan (formed on December 15.12.1941, 459 as the 22.01.1942th regiment in Akmola from military-obliged northern regions of Kazakhstan, renamed the 29th rifle division of the third formation on January XNUMX, XNUMX), which was called "Irreplaceable, Waterproof and Unspectacular, "due to the fact that the division was never taken away from the front line for reserve, nor for rest, nor for reorganization for any long time. On Wikipedia, the link is made so that, allegedly, this division originates from the almost "homonymous" 29 SD militia of Moscow. Again, the division from Kazakhstan was put up allegedly "Russian." Only for some reason, a copy of the combat banner 72 GDS Volgograd solemnly handed over to Kazakhstan, and not Moscow. Apparently, the descendants of the Stalingrad residents do not need to be convinced that the 72nd State Duma, which covered itself with glory in the Stalingrad battles, was from Akmolinsk, and not from Moscow or Siberia.

                      Still there are options for "Siberian" divisions that defended Moscow in the fall of 1941?
                      I propose to finish this topic. I say again, the Siberians (to whom I respect sincerely just because they are Siberians) have valiantly shown themselves in various sectors of the front, including those that directly or indirectly influenced the balance of power in the Moscow battle. However, there is no need to talk about any massive "Siberian" participation directly in the battle under the walls of the Capital on the critical days of the fall of the first year of the war. Although it should be noted that the Kalinin offensive operation is included in the second part of the Moscow battle (when ours switched from defense to offensive). Here the aforementioned 119 and 133 sd participated (although specifically the Siberians were already there a little - they died in previous battles near Kalinin and in other places).
        3. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 27 May 2013 18: 33 New
          +1
          This is for the 312th SD that is. and according to the 316th, half were Kazakhs, and a third were Russians.
          1. Genady1976
            Genady1976 27 May 2013 21: 58 New
            0
            So I did not understand near Moscow in 41g. Che there were no Siberians and who were there tady. sad what
            1. Ducksar
              Ducksar 27 May 2013 22: 11 New
              +1
              Well, who? Kazakhs! isn't it clear
          2. baltika-18
            baltika-18 27 May 2013 22: 15 New
            0
            Quote: Marek Rozny
            and according to the 316th, half were Kazakhs, and a third were Russians.

            Quote: Marek Rozny
            The personnel of the 316th SD formed in July-August 1941 in Alma-Ata consisted of 11347 people. Russians - 4460 people, Kazakhs - 3556, the rest - Ukrainians, Uzbeks, Tatars, Tajiks, Turkmens, Belarusians.

            When are you lying, Marat?
            Or maybe the process is constant and extremely running?
            1. Genady1976
              Genady1976 27 May 2013 22: 22 New
              +2
              In the Mozhaisk direction, the Siberian 32nd Infantry Division of Colonel Viktor Polosukhin fought. On the fields of Borodin, the division, the backbone of which consisted of residents of the Novosibirsk Region, Altai and Krasnoyarsk Territories, met the elite German SS division “Reich” and the French volunteer legion. Near Borodin, four French battalions suffered such losses that a few days later the legion was transferred to the rear and then sent west. On this, the campaign of the French fascists in the USSR ended. After seven days of fighting, the loss of the Reich, one of the best German divisions, reached 40 percent.
              1. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 28 May 2013 01: 07 New
                +4
                32nd SD of the first formation: formed in 1922 on the basis of a rifle brigade in the Volga Military District.
                On June 22.06.1941, XNUMX, it was stationed in the Far East (Slavyanka).

                32nd SD of the second formation: the division began to be formed on June 16, 1942 in Murom. Located in the village of Borisoglebsk, Gorky region. The formation of the division was completed on August 30, 1942.
            2. Was mammoth
              Was mammoth 27 May 2013 22: 45 New
              -4
              Quote: baltika-18
              When are you lying, Marat?

              It looks like a diagnosis.
            3. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 27 May 2013 23: 28 New
              +1
              Baltic, do not distort. And if you quote my phrases, then do it completely:
              Quote: Marek Rozny
              this is for the 312th sd that is. and according to the 316th, half were Kazakhs, and a third were Russians.

              In the heat of the dispute, I wrote data on the 312nd division, but indicated number 316. When I noticed a typo, I tried to fix it, but it was too late, so after a few minutes I wrote that it was data for the 312nd division.
        4. Was mammoth
          Was mammoth 27 May 2013 22: 35 New
          +1
          Quote: Marek Rozny
          Absolute rubbish regarding the percentage composition. The personnel of the 316th SD formed in July-August 1941 in Alma-Ata consisted of 11347 people. Russians - 4460 people, Kazakhs - 3556, the rest - Ukrainians, Uzbeks, Tatars, Tajiks, Turkmens, Belarusians.
          As for Kyrgyzstan, it was Panfilov himself who was from there, in Frunze he was a military commissar, but was sent to Alma-Ata to form a division from among the residents of the Alma-Ata region. And the second attitude towards Kyrgyzstan is that after the war it was stationed in the Kyrgyz SSR (it is still there).

          And your numbers are not clear where they came from. Either these are the numbers taken after the battles near Moscow (replenishment later came from the Russian regions) or these are OTHER 316th rifle divisions of other formations, one of which died, and the other under this number "316" fought until Victory.

          Again, Marek Rozny tells us that, as always, the Kazakhs saved the world and Russia. Where are your figures from? It is weak to go to the memorial of 28 Panfilov’s and count how many of them are Kazakhs. The division was formed in Alma-Ata and Talgar. For me, the news is that in 1941, Kazakhs made up the majority of citizens. It is amazing. I especially liked that there were already several Panfilov divisions in the Soviet army. And, it seems, one of them is virtual. I never thought about the national composition of the division. And he did not seek information about him. I took the Almaty Book of Remembrance and at random opened three pages. You can repeat the experience and tell us all about the result.
          1. Ducksar
            Ducksar 27 May 2013 22: 44 New
            +1
            Let the army and the country finally recognize their proud names. The trenches were Klotchkov Basil G., Dobrobabin Ivan Evstafievich, Shepetkov Ivan Kryuchkov Abram I. Mitin Gavriil Stepanovich, Casa Alikbay, Petrenko Yavlinsky, Esibulatov Narsutbay, Kaleynikov Dmitry Mitrofanovich, Natarov Ivan Moiseevich, Shemyakin Grigory Mikhailovich, Dutov Peter Danilovich, Mitchenko Nicholas Shopokov Duishenkul, Konkin Grigori, Shadrin Ivan Demidovich, EHKO Nicholas Yemtsov Peter Kuzmich, Kuzhebergenov Daniil Timofeev Dmitry Fomichev, Trofimov Nikolay Ignatievich Bondarenko Yakov, Vasily Larionov Romanovich, Belashev Nikolai Nikonorovich, Bezrodnyi Gregory Sengirbaev Mustafa , Maksimov Nikolay, Ananyev Nikolay ...
            1. Marek Rozny
              Marek Rozny 27 May 2013 22: 59 New
              +1
              let's not make ourselves innocent, and be honest. The theme of 28 Panfilov’s is fictitious. the overall feat of the division is undeniable, but this moment is simply an ideological fake. in Kazakhstan, everyone understands this, but they continue to maintain this cult as useful for education. and just to demolish the memorial in honor of them, no one’s hand will go up. and I’ll be the first to knock in the face who will give a hint about this.
              but there was no “feat of 28 pancylovites”.
              1. Ducksar
                Ducksar 27 May 2013 23: 39 New
                +1
                The feat was! however it was, people and their affairs are not invented. Embellished only that there were only 30 and 28 died ... there were more and 100 died and only 28 were awarded the hero. And please do not confuse the feat of soldiers with "ideological fake", and a tribute to these people as a "cult" .. sounds very rude.

                http://obd-memorial.ru/html/info.htm?id=51895574&page=1
                1. Marek Rozny
                  Marek Rozny 28 May 2013 02: 34 New
                  +2
                  The feat was a division. And the story that became known from the newspaper about 28 Panfilov’s was not. What to fence something further? The journalist who published this opus in the newspaper made up the story from beginning to end. Most of the "28 Panfilov" not only did not die during the "legendary" battle, but also met Victory. And some died before this battle - Kozhabergenov, for example. By the way, take an interest in the fate of some of the "dead" Panfilovites - Dobrobabin, Kozhabergenov (who is Daniel). If you don’t know, then you’ll be very surprised how real a story is sometimes beyond the scope of myth.
                  The Panfilov’s feat I’m not at all diminishing. Moreover, like any Kazakhstani, I am very proud of them. Not a single Soviet division during the war deserved a personal name except Panfilov.

                  It’s just that some in Russia are offended that the bulk of the Moscow group of troops (military personnel) were crushed by the Germans in the Vyazemsky cauldron, and some Kazakhs from Almaty and Aktyubinsk (non-personnel military) shot up absolutely all of the German force that attacked Moscow in October-November 1941 of the year.
                  Georgy Burkov, who played the role of General I.V. Panfilov in the film Volokolamsk Highway, said: "I have always said and will say that Kazakhs defended Moscow."
                  General Erich Göpner, who commanded the 4th Panzer Group, whose strike forces were defeated in the battles with the Panfilov Division, had to justify themselves with the commander of the Center group F. von Bock, calling the 316th SD - "a wild division fighting in violation of all the charters and rules of warfare, whose soldiers do not surrender, are extremely fanatical and not afraid of death".
                  But this is a general who fought in the First World War, triumphantly passed the Polish and French campaigns, successfully took the Baltic states and defeated 4 Soviet armies in the Vyazemsky cauldron! Göpner was eventually removed for the shameful failure with the Panfilov’s, kicked out of the Wehrmacht with a wolf ticket, and deprived of the right to wear military uniforms and awards.
          2. Marek Rozny
            Marek Rozny 27 May 2013 23: 24 New
            +2
            1) about the participation of Kazakhstanis during the war and their role regarding the Moscow battle - think what you want.
            2) about 28 Panfilov’s - answered below
            3) the figures relate to 312 divisions, and I wrote about it, I just pointed out 316 in a fever, and then I could not fix it, so a few minutes later I added a message that this is data for 312 divisions.
            4) the division was formed from the inhabitants of the region, including the city. the majority of Russians in Kazakhstan only became under Khrushchev. and even more so in the Alma-Ata region there were more Kazakhs than Russians. I don’t know the data in the city.
            5) 316th divisions existed during the war years, three pieces. Panfilov’s became - 316 sd of the first formation. And then there were two more divisions with this number.
            6) I come across memory books and bases on the Red Army several times a month, because I’m doing very little searching for soldiers from Kazakhstan. What "result" do you want to hear? Speak more clearly.
            1. Was mammoth
              Was mammoth 28 May 2013 23: 44 New
              +2
              Marekou.
              “About the participation of Kazakhstanis during the war and their role regarding the Moscow battle - think what you want.”
              I think that they have fulfilled their duty to the motherland. Now we owe them, the dead. Therefore, I answer you.
              “Let's not make ourselves innocent, and be honest.” the theme of 28 Panfilov’s is a fictitious one .... ”
              Let's.
              “It is disproved that there is a literary fiction in the transfer of the Specialty to Georgy A. Kumanev, a doctor of historical sciences, professor, head of the Center for Military History of the Russian Academy of Sciences, Russian Academy of Sciences http://specistoriya.ru/index.php/stenogrammy/voprosy-txt/voprosy-5-txt .html the confusion with the number of Panfilov’s was connected with the fact that the regiment really was at first, but the right flank, led by regiment commissar Mukhamedyarov and regiment commander Colonel Kaprov, retreated, 29 left on the left, one of whom tried to surrender. After his execution, 28 people remained on the left flank. The left flank reflected the attack of 50 Nazi tanks and a company of machine gunners. The attack stopped for 4,5 hours, 18 tanks were shot down. 6 people survived: Daniil Aleksandrovich Kozhubergenov - connected political instructor Klochkov, Ivan Evstafievich Dobrobabin, Grigory Melentievich Shemyakin, Ivan Demidovich Shadrin, Illarion Romanovich Vasiliev. The historian met with them all repeatedly. They lived in different places. Three lived in Alma-Ata. One of them is in Tsimlyansk. The other is in Kemerovo. The reasoning that this whole myth is based on the instructions of the chief military prosecutor Afanasyev based on the fact that 5 out of 6 Panfilov’s prisoners was the basis for reasoning that this is a myth. A team of investigators ejected confessions that there was no battle, and Krivitsky, threatened with exile, stated that he had invented the article, and did not write it according to the recollections of the wounded hero of the Soviet Union, Ivan Moiseevich Natarov. It is impossible to rely on the testimony of the regiment commander Kaprov and the regimental commissar Mukhamedyarov since they retreated and accordingly could not be witnesses of the battle. They were immediately removed from command, and they were threatened by a tribunal. I would like to emphasize in evidence that the case is falsified, that the case was not given a move. Zhdanov said that everything was done clumsily and embroidered with white thread and ordered that the case be pushed into the special police ”
              1. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 29 May 2013 14: 20 New
                0
                well, kanesh! again, the evil NKVD officers tried to hide the truth from the people ... think what you say. it was the authorities who needed to support the legend of the “28 Panfilovites,” and not to torment people in the “gloomy dungeons”, trying to refute this story. We now know about the heroes of Brest and other cases of heroism in the summer and fall of 1941, and then the leadership of the country and the army did not have any striking example to inspire soldiers. "28 Panfilovites" is an ideal story for propaganda and raising morale. True, then this story crackled at the seams, but there was no turning back.
                By the way, in my Soviet childhood, even in the 80s, it was obstinately asserted that all 28 fighters were killed.
                And now, people who have written these myths for decades are trying to justify themselves and are ready for anything to save their face. What did you count on? That the propagandists of these myths, who have written hundreds of books and scientific papers on this topic, will begin to say: "Yes, I admit, I have been telling lies all my life, forgive me, good people"? No, of course, they will, until their death, insist that they wrote exclusively the truth, and any doubt about the interpretation of events is “an attempt to denigrate Panfilov’s.” No more, no less.

                A sufficient amount of materials is already known on this issue to form a picture together. In Russia, before the revolution, there were popular prints for the illiterate. I think you know about that. Many in Russia live only with these pictures.
                1. Was mammoth
                  Was mammoth 2 June 2013 02: 02 New
                  0
                  Marekou.
                  “Ears” of lies about 28 Panfilov’s people have been growing since February 23, 2010 when Azattyk radio spread the article “The myth of 28 Panfilov’s people has long been scattered, but Soviet propaganda is kept in Kazakhstan.” Wasn’t they trying to “fix” the Panfilov’s memorial for the sake of “historical” the truth?
                  You are not satisfied with the refutation of Georgy Aleksandrovich, who is a doctor of historical sciences, professor, head of the Center for Military History of the Russian Academy of Sciences, RAS [/ quote]. And how is your Kazakhstan professor, doctor of historical sciences Laila Akhmetova? Silently about the veterans, they have seen enough popular prints.
                  “The Panfilov division near Moscow dispelled the myth of the invincibility of the Nazis. Do you know what inscription can be read on the Reichstag’s wall?” “We are Panfilov’s! Thank you, Dad, for your felt boots!” I didn’t know about such an inscription, so thanks to you I found out.
            2. Was mammoth
              Was mammoth 28 May 2013 23: 45 New
              +1
              You gave the following data: “Absolute rubbish regarding the percentage composition. The personnel of the 316th SD formed in July-August 1941 in Alma-Ata consisted of 11347 people. Russians - 4460 people, Kazakhs - 3556, the rest - Ukrainians, Uzbeks, Tatars, Tajiks, Turkmens, Belarusians. ...
              And your numbers are not clear where they came from. ”

              I want to ask a second time, where are yours from?
              Not verified, but here are other data: "... the national composition of the 316th Infantry Division (later the 8th Guards Rifle Panfilov)
              Russians - 67%, Kyrgyz - 11%, Kazakhs - 11%, Ukrainians - 8%, other nationalities - 3% ... ”.
              I trust this data more. And not because I'm Russian. But because the Alma-Ata Book of memory is stored at our place. Two of my uncles are buried in a mass grave near the famous village of Kryukovo. They are Panfilov’s from the glorious city of Alma-Ata. I already suggested that you try to open any page from this book and calculate the percentage of dead Kazakhs. Maybe then you will see clearly. Although I believe that it is not appropriate to divide the defenders of the homeland by nationality.
              1. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 29 May 2013 13: 17 New
                0
                1) I write for the third timethat the figures I mentioned relate to the 312nd division. Instead, the 316th gave data on the 312nd, but immediately saw his slip and after a few minutes got better in the next comment.

                Figures about 67% of Russians and 11% of Kazakhs are complete nonsense. They composed all sorts of smokes and put them on the Internet. This is from the bulldozer figures. I’ll write in my comment that "Russians there were 93%, Kazakhs - 4%, all the rest - 3%", and tomorrow this figure will be distributed by all sorts of smokeys and others as immutable truth. I have repeatedly come across the fact that many Russians generally call the Panfilov division a Siberian formation.

                Accurate data on the division is not given anywhere, but in any study on it, it is emphasized (without detail) that Kazakhs made up half of the division, Russians - about a third.

                2) As for the loss of Kazakhstani ethnic composition, these data are not even indirect indicators of the national relations of draftees. Officially, 1,2 million Kazakhstanis were drafted into the Red Army during the war years. 601 Kazakhstani soldiers died. About 011 thousand Kazakhs who served in the Soviet army died. According to your logic, four to five Russian citizens of the republic were called up for every Kazakh from Kazakhstan ... Or maybe the steppe inhabitants are simply better suited for war, and therefore always managed to stay alive, killing the enemy ? Do not be offended, but if the Russians willingly believe that they are superior in their combat qualities (with the same number of rivals) than the Jews or Georgians, then it can be recognized that there are peoples that are superior to the Russians in this regard? And the fact that Russian conscripts from the Kazakh SSR died many times more than Kazakhs does not mean that they called up more Russians, but that the Kazakhs are a more stubborn, tenacious and combat-ready nation? For example, the Buryats are proud that not a single Buryat was captured by the Germans. What does this mean if you compare how many Russians were captured? The fact that the Buryats is a nation that is different from the Russians or Kazakhs, and that they are predisposed to resist to the last real drop of blood.
                It is not necessary to display the Book of Memory as a direct or indirect indicator of the number of Russian conscripts from Kazakhstan. Otherwise, you will now have to say that from Kazakhstan, only Russians were called up, and the Kazakhs allegedly “at armor” remained at home. Indeed, for one killed Kazakh, there are four to five killed Russian Kazakhstanis. And this despite the fact that 125 thousand killed Kazakhs are not only Kazakhs from the Kazakh SSR, but Kazakhs from other republics — the RSFSR, Uzbekistan, and Kyrgyzstan — are also included there. If we separate these dead Kazakh soldiers from the dead Kazakh soldiers called up from Kazakhstan, the proportion is even more significant. Begin to argue that Russians from Kazakhstan were called up more than Kazakhs? Or did these figures appear in the light that supposedly the generals cherished the Asians and did not send them to attack?

                I can’t but recall that the "reservation" did not shine for the overwhelming majority of Kazakhs. I hope you will not argue that all important technical and political posts were occupied by the Kazakhs? And at the same time I can’t recall that almost all ethnic Kazakh men went to the front. Even the ministers went to war as political workers. And in 1944, the People’s Commissariat of Defense was faced with the fact that there was nobody to call from Kazakhstan (and not only in the KZ), almost the entire male population "scooped out".

                Well, the conversation about the national composition of the Panfilov division was not started by me, but by your compatriots. And the article generally gives a bold hint that this division is from Siberia. And yesterday I was generally surprised when I found out that on Russian Wikipedia the 72nd SDF from Akmolinsk was descended from the 29th SD militia of Moscow. Hope this is a technical error.
                1. Ducksar
                  Ducksar 29 May 2013 22: 32 New
                  0
                  You should be read like this: all Russian soldiers are cowards, the history of Russia is a complete lie, there are no national heroes ... only traitors. But KAZAKHI, well, just "space". Yes, and a rich story)
                  1. Marek Rozny
                    Marek Rozny 2 June 2013 01: 01 New
                    0
                    Instead of emotions, there is something to say on the topic of discussion? Which particular judgment seems wrong to you and why? Do you have other information about Panfilov’s division? Do you have other information about the dead Kazakh soldiers in ethnic context? Do you have other information about who was the aggressor in the Soviet-Finnish war? Do you have other information about whether Mamai was a representative of the Horde? Do you have other information on other questions raised?
                    Z.Y. I did not say at all that "all Russians are cowards," "Russians have no national heroes, only traitors," and so on. Moreover, I fundamentally disagree with such reasoning. So do not attribute to me any stupidity.
            3. Was mammoth
              Was mammoth 28 May 2013 23: 48 New
              0
              “... the division was formed from the inhabitants of the region, including the city. the majority of Russians in Kazakhstan only became under Khrushchev. and even more so in the Alma-Ata region there were more Kazakhs than Russians. I don’t know the data in the city. ”
              Open the official census data and find out how many were urban.
              “I come across memory books and bases on the Red Army several times a month, ...” It turns out badly faced. Or selectively.
              "... 316th divisions existed during the war years, three pieces."
              Stuck, are you talking about fabric or about defenders of the Fatherland?
              There are myths in the heroic defense of Moscow like your “300 Spartans.” But I consider it vile to turn history inside out for the sake of “historical” truth.
              Among Kazakhs, as well as among warriors of other nationalities, there are enough Heroes who simply performed their duty.
              “... It’s bad when you prefer flattery and outright lies. I’m used to the Russian people to the toasts (well-deserved and hollow) in their address. ”
              "Am I Russophobe?"
              A time of flattery and lies for Kazakhs?
              “I respect the Russian people, I love Russian culture, I know Russian history and language very well, but I hate poorly disguised nationalists and lovers of convenient myths (instead of real history).”
              And do not hide behind beautiful words.
              1. Marek Rozny
                Marek Rozny 29 May 2013 13: 55 New
                0
                1) Give me the data from the 1937 census (or even the fictional figures of the 1939 census at least) for Alma-Ata, Talgar and Kaskelen. I did not find. Only general figures for the republic.
                2) As I can, I come across memory books and databases.
                3) There’s nothing to dig into except the word “things”? Do not recall how the conversation about the three divisions began? I can remind you when you misinterpreted my words and doubted what was three divisions during the war with the number 316. Instead of admitting their mistake, they decided to get to the bottom of another. And I really should not be blamed for disrespect for the fallen Kazakhstanis. I practice the military history of Kazakhstan almost daily to at least do something so that they are not forgotten. Once again I say that I have done very little, but this does not mean that I "spit on their graves." Moreover, you probably know that Kazakhs are jealous of their ancestors in general, and their military history in particular. The mentality of this. With us, a person with Nazi symbols will break his head instantly without talking. Compare this with Russian reality.
                4) Regarding your ernichnost about our "Spartans" - did not understand at all. If you doubt that a small number of wars could close the passage in the Dzungarian Alatau, then I advise you to see what kind of place it is. This is not an open steppe, but a narrow passage that can be easily defended and which is difficult to take. Over the heroes of Brest does not occur to you to joke? They were also fewer than Germans, but they were able to resist the Wehrmacht for several months. Why are you surprised that the Kazakhs in a better place could not repel the Dzungars? 300 were Spartans or a little more - but they really created a nuisance to the conquerors of the Greek lands. Because they took the right defensive position. Roughly speaking, 6000 submachine gunners will not be able to take the Dzungarian passage, which is protected by 600 submachine gunners.
                5) Oh yeah ... I’m not only a Russophobe, because I’m trying to resist the “Russian” myths about the Siberianism of the Panfilov’s people or that they were 70% Russian, but also a “sneaky twist of history”? laughing Oh well))))
                But we do not need flattery and lies. It is used in Russia to unceremoniously treat history, rewriting it every political era. It is enough to look through textbooks published at different times in Moscow, so as not to argue with this. I was taught in a Soviet school, for example, that Finland attacked the Soviet Union))))
                I’m not talking about Donskoy’s victory over Mamai, which is still put up as a victory over the Golden Horde, which generally contradicts common sense. And if it were not for the war with the Nazis, then most likely Alexander Nevsky and other personalities of pre-Bolshevik Russia, whom they remembered to raise military patriotism, would have remained simply "exploiters of the working people", and not heroes. By the way, Nevsky, too, for some reason is often stubbornly attributed to fighters for the independence of Russia from the Horde, which generally does not correspond to the real story.
                In short, end up rushing just because you are not happy with the real story. The Panfilov division was formed in Kazakhstan, not in Omsk or elsewhere in Siberia, and in it the Russians did not constitute the majority. That's all. At the same time, I readily say that in the 312nd Aktobe division, which stood shoulder to shoulder, there were a little more Russian Kazakhstanis than Kazakhs - 4400 and 3500. So calm down with your accusations, which you have already pretty much hung on me here.
                1. Was mammoth
                  Was mammoth 2 June 2013 01: 49 New
                  0
                  Mareku!
                  I'm sorry to answer late. There was a lot of work. You raised several fundamental questions.
                  Quote: Marek Rozny
                  The Panfilov division was formed in Kazakhstan, not in Omsk or elsewhere in Siberia, and in it the Russians did not constitute the majority. That's all.

                  Quote: Marek Rozny
                  Figures about 67% of Russians and 11% of Kazakhs are complete nonsense. Composed all sorts of smokey ...

                  I think the numbers are from here. Http://www.barometer.kg/component/content/article/11638-smi-kazaxstana-py
                  tayutsya-isklyuchit-kyrgyzstanczev-iz-panfilovskoj-divizii.html. "The national composition of the division was as follows:
                  - Kyrgyz - 11 percent, Kazakhs -11, Russians-67, Ukrainians -8, the remaining 3 percent are representatives of other nationalities of the Soviet Union. ... The role of Kyrgyzstanis in the Panfilov’s division can be judged by the following data: on June 20, 1942, a new replenishment of 8 guard divisions was received in the amount of 1473 people, of which 835 were Kyrgyz, 8 were Kazakhs, 70 were Uzbeks, and the rest were others nationalities of the Soviet Union. HEAD OF THE MUSEUM OF THE MILITARY FORCES OF THE KYRGYZ REPUBLIC, Lt. Col. K.AMATBEKOV. He is not a Russian Kyrgyz.
                  Quote: Marek Rozny
                  I laugh at the attempt of some Russians to make Panfilov’s Russians or “Cossacks”

                  In vain. The division was formed in Alma-Ata, Talgar, and Kaskelen. Among urban Kazakhs there were units of percent. In addition, these are places of resettlement of the former Semirechensky Cossack army.
                  Quote: Marek Rozny
                  Accurate data on the division is not given anywhere, but in any study on it, it is emphasized (without detail) that the Kazakhs made up half the division, the Russians about a third
                  . I have not found anywhere confirmation of this statement.
                  Quote: Marek Rozny
                  Officially, 1,2 million Kazakhstanis were drafted into the Red Army during the war years. 601 Kazakhstani soldiers died. About 011 thousand Kazakhs who served in the Soviet army died. According to your logic, four to five Russian citizens of the republic were called up from Kazakhstan for every Kazakh ...
                  You yourself answered the question.
                  Quote: Marek Rozny
                  And the fact that Russian conscripts from the Kazakh SSR died many times more than Kazakhs does not mean that they called up more Russians, but that the Kazakhs are a more stubborn, tenacious and combat-ready nation?
                  Kazakh as a warrior is worth five Russians? The answer is not an adult man, but a 10-year-old boy who has seen the militants after playing computer shooters. Above was about the same “Cossacks”. The fact that the Soviet government abolished them as an estate does not mean that they ceased to be able to fight. There are many examples from the history of the same Central Asia when they beat nomads with a small number. One name of Ermak enrages you. They knew how to stand up for their homeland.
                  After the collapse of the USSR, many began to "share" heroes, create new ones. For me, it doesn’t matter what nationality the defenders of the homeland are. I think that at the front, and they did not care.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Smoke
    Smoke 27 May 2013 14: 50 New
    +2
    A couple of days I returned home from Tyumen. Tyumen the city is beautiful, well-groomed, many parks of fountain squares, but our Tomsk is still prettier))
  • rereture
    rereture 27 May 2013 14: 53 New
    +2
    I was only surprised that the author called Siberia a country?
    1. Hleb
      Hleb 27 May 2013 15: 05 New
      +2
      and it surprised me one that you write Siberia with a small letter?
      If you notice an error in the text, select the text with the error and press Ctrl + Enter
    2. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 27 May 2013 15: 05 New
      +2
      Quote: rereture
      I was only surprised that the author called Siberia a country?

      I do not think that the author has put political meaning in this definition. rather geographical, given the scale of Siberia and its dissimilarity to other regions of Russia.
  • smart ass
    smart ass 27 May 2013 15: 29 New
    +1
    "Small and medium-sized businesses were squeezed so that in the first quarter of this year alone, more than four thousand entrepreneurs revoked their licenses."

    What kind of licenses are these ??? I think they closed their IP. Nudak is a trend throughout RUSSIA, deductions increased from 17 thousand a year to 36 thousand) here you have the support of small business!
  • For the Motherland
    For the Motherland 27 May 2013 15: 30 New
    +1
    He studied in 1996 at the Far Eastern branch of the Academy of Public Administration in Khabarovsk. During the lectures we were then told that the Far East and Siberia are a zone of economic desert. Mainly from a shortage of human resources. If the country's leadership had somehow stimulated the population moving from the western part of the country to the east, stimulated the birth rate and the return of Russians from abroad for resettlement in the Far East and Siberia .....
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 27 May 2013 15: 45 New
      +3
      My fellow countryman Semurg here already remembered the transfer of the capital to Kazakhstan. This is a really good thing to fix demographics. Nazarbayev is a man not without cons, but he knows how to calculate ahead. Excess mass from other regions of the country flowed into Northern and Central Kazakhstan, improving the demography of the country as a whole.
  • Warrawar
    Warrawar 27 May 2013 15: 38 New
    +1
    Each time the next revolution is thrust into Russia, with Russia becoming less and less, and the people becoming poorer and poorer, although they promise him more and more.
    And do not think that this time will be different. Russia impedes the West and the main goal of the EU and the USA is to eliminate a strong geopolitical competitor. And then they will take your oil into their hands - stop feeding Moscow, it's time to feed Washington!
    Remember, the smart one learns from the mistakes of others, but he cannot from his own. And 2 times we already made a mistake.
  • Takashi
    Takashi 27 May 2013 17: 05 New
    0
    For some reason, it seemed to me that the article was not about Siberia, but about an ordinary provincial town.

    In general, having traveled many times along the Moscow-Vladivostok line, for some reason, I decided to myself that real Siberia begins somewhere near Krasnoyarsk and goes approximately to the Yakutsk-Baikal line. After that comes the intermediate zone - the Amur Region. And then the DW begins.

    Excuse me, who lives on the Omsk-Tomsk line :(
    1. Hleb
      Hleb 27 May 2013 17: 09 New
      0
      Siberia begins somewhere near Krasnoyarsk
      So what is Siberia for you? By what grounds did you decide this?
      1. Takashi
        Takashi 28 May 2013 03: 52 New
        0
        The first sign: a small number of people
        1. Egen
          Egen 28 May 2013 08: 34 New
          +1
          Quote: Takashi
          The first sign: a small number of people

          Siberia is different :) But what, in the Baraba swamps many people live? :) To the south of the forest-steppe, a lot of villages are empty, so that fits your criteria :)
          In Kuzbass, too, not everything is broken :)
    2. Smoke
      Smoke 27 May 2013 17: 37 New
      +1
      I’m just wondering how this way you traveled Tomsk by train, if Tomsk is not on the Trans-Siberian Railway .... but you have already drawn conclusions, well done))
      but more precisely, you first need to know that the Trans-Siberian railway does not pass through the Tomsk region ... Pak)
      1. Kyrgyz
        Kyrgyz 27 May 2013 20: 41 New
        0
        Quote: Smoke
        Tomsk is not located on the Trans-Siberian Railway .... but you have already drawn conclusions, well done))

        The merchants there, there is a rumor, the dough was carried to the capital so that the road was pulled away, competition was feared.
        1. Smoke
          Smoke 27 May 2013 20: 53 New
          +1
          quite right, and as time showed it was not in vain worn. Tomsk has its own economic niche - this is the largest educational center in Siberia with a truly high-class education. In my opinion, 50% at the ESPO MCC were probably Tomsk citizens when the pipe was being built to the east. We live here normally, we work on shifts, we plant potatoes, we hunt, we hunt in the forest in our spare time ... if you don’t plow, then the income will be higher than in Moscow time, though our prices are higher than the capital’s, except for housing
      2. Takashi
        Takashi 28 May 2013 03: 55 New
        0
        The fact that Tomsk - does not stand on the Trans-Siberian Railway - I know without you. And he drew a line of exaggerated.

        Tomsk made absolutely no impression on me. A dirty, old, groomed city. Lots of students. Nothing else.

        For justice, it should be noted that Omsk is generally a hole (black, dirty, broken), in comparison with Yekaterinburg, Novosibirsk, Krasnoyarsk.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • tixon444
    tixon444 27 May 2013 17: 47 New
    +1
    And here is how Siberia began!


  • Genady1976
    Genady1976 27 May 2013 18: 07 New
    +2
    Huge greetings to Siberians drinks good
  • duchy
    duchy 27 May 2013 18: 20 New
    +1
    Article +. Such a simple truth. About us, Siberians, about our problems, life, concerns. Everyone will find in this story familiar features of their place of residence. And no matter what nation you are, you are a SIBERIAN that says it all! And the difficulties and so on, we can overcome. We know the city will be, we know the garden bloom, When we have such people in Siberia! good .
  • Kyrgyz
    Kyrgyz 27 May 2013 20: 37 New
    0
    I have been to Omsk more than once, probably the most killed city in Siberia, like a million people and a hole stuck in the 90s, thanks to the permanent Polezhaev, traffic is blocked there when he goes, I fucked up when I saw
    1. Takashi
      Takashi 28 May 2013 03: 58 New
      -1
      I agree with you about Omsk.

      To be honest, I don’t even consider it a city of Siberia.
  • deman73
    deman73 27 May 2013 21: 25 New
    0
    excellent article the whole truth of our life in it and there are many such cities and not only in Siberia
  • tixon444
    tixon444 27 May 2013 21: 47 New
    +2
    Quote: werr17
    Thanks for the good article! I myself am from Siberia and relate to this region with some special tremulous love. Even Lomonosov said: "Russia's wealth will grow Siberia"

    That wealth is growing, but not Russia. Everyone is transported west through these offshores.
  • regsSSSR
    regsSSSR 27 May 2013 23: 22 New
    0
    Where are the roots from? Yes, someone like that. Most are Siberians from the war or post-war years. You see the lights in the distance - a German village. Probably a third of the region the Germans, once evicted by Stalin, occupy. But what kind of Germans are they now? They are ours, Siberians. (Citation) I will probably repeat myself, but if Stalin had managed to send exiles and Benderaites to Germans to Siberia after 60 years, maybe they would have gotten our Siberians from these soup! laughing although yes it’s unlikely that they are Bendera and Africa Bendera laughing but it was worth a try !!
  • vaddy72
    vaddy72 28 May 2013 01: 14 New
    -3
    Article - complete city. But. Lying and juggling in order to give out something resonant in order to bulge out. And phrases like "I know this city and its history", designed to emphasize the "objectivity" of the writer. Opus: "on the roofs of cars, beer and something stronger," he generally killed. Well, just awesome criterion for the condition of the city. The chowder in the bowler gurgles, the domocle laments .. His brain gurgled when he wrote the article. He invented everything, or found some whiners, the same as he. Everything is far-fetched. NORMAL CITY, ONE OF THE BEAUTIFUL CITIES OF SIBERIA. AREA GOOD. LIKE AND EVERYWHERE THERE IS PROBLEMS, THERE IS BAD AND GOOD. And do not distort TO ACHIEVE cheap popularity or the satisfaction of vanity, and attracts an article LIKE SUCH AS THIS Russophobia MAREK discord Terrible and give them a reason swells egotism and PSEVDOVELICHIYA background "LAPOTNOY" RUSSIAN how they Unequivocally, I think
    1. domokl
      28 May 2013 04: 44 New
      -1
      Alas, but unlike you, I live in this city. There are no and no whiners among the Siberians. Otherwise, you would have escaped, but did not try to do better. If you want to point out inaccuracies, I beg you to be merry, but I just don’t tear the vests. You won’t take us for show-offs.
      Nothing was invented about beer and hookah either, it was Sunday, on the Irtysh embankment, near the Ocean store.
      I am very good at criticism, but I hate criticism, not backed up by anything. You are a critic.
    2. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 28 May 2013 07: 45 New
      +1
      Waddy, am I Russophobe?)))))) Can you poke specifically into my "Russophobic" words?
  • vaddy72
    vaddy72 28 May 2013 01: 19 New
    0
    And this Rose, why not banned at all? He has almost all the comments - hostility and arrogance towards Russia
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 28 May 2013 08: 31 New
      +2
      And what was the manifestation of my "hostility and arrogance" here? laughing The fact that I consider it wrong to adhere to Panfilov’s people to Omsk, that I laugh at the attempt of some Russians to make Panfilov’s Russians or “Cossacks” that I declare that they drink less in Kazakhstan than in Russia? Well, then I, Kanesh, are a Kazakh nationalist and cannibal. Now, if I said that Panfilov’s are a mixture of Russians and Siberians, that Kazakhs are subject to total alcoholism, that in Kazakhstan there is absolute poverty and hunger for the sake of some “comrades,” then can you write me down as Russophiles?
      It’s bad when you prefer flattery and outright lies. The Russian people got used to the toasts (well-deserved and hollow) in their address. That’s why some people get crazy when they first begin to hear the truth, diverging from their established myths. For one and a half hundred years in my family there are already a ton of awards from tsarist Russia, the Soviet Union, and the Russian Federation. Moreover, both great-great-grandfathers served the Russian state. And part of my last name still serves in the law enforcement agencies of Russia. I respect the Russian people, I love Russian culture, I know Russian history and language very well, but I hate poorly disguised nationalists and lovers of convenient myths (instead of real history).
      1. Semurg
        Semurg 28 May 2013 14: 09 New
        +3
        Quote: Marek Rozny
        And what was the manifestation of my "hostility and arrogance" here? laughing The fact that I consider it wrong to adhere to Panfilov’s people to Omsk, that I laugh at the attempt of some Russians to make Panfilov’s Russians or “Cossacks” that I declare that they drink less in Kazakhstan than in Russia? Well, then I, Kanesh, are a Kazakh nationalist and cannibal. Now, if I said that Panfilov’s are a mixture of Russians and Siberians, that Kazakhs are subject to total alcoholism, that in Kazakhstan there is absolute poverty and hunger for the sake of some “comrades,” then can you write me down as Russophiles?
        It’s bad when you prefer flattery and outright lies. The Russian people got used to the toasts (well-deserved and hollow) in their address. That’s why some people get crazy when they first begin to hear the truth, diverging from their established myths. For one and a half hundred years in my family there are already a ton of awards from tsarist Russia, the Soviet Union, and the Russian Federation. Moreover, both great-great-grandfathers served the Russian state. And part of my last name still serves in the law enforcement agencies of Russia. I respect the Russian people, I love Russian culture, I know Russian history and language very well, but I hate poorly disguised nationalists and lovers of convenient myths (instead of real history).

        Yes, Marek with a whip, but not to beat the butt, but it is necessary to shake. People read komenty and I hope not all people who are deaf and blind from information posted by you and other users. Well, whoever believed in advance that prosralipolymers think the same thing in Russia. Like, for example, "Gleb" who writes the first transfer of the capital, we need it well, otherwise suddenly more competitive capable guys from all over Russia will come and it will not be comme il faut against them. And the Great Patriotic War archive is of course good thanks for doing this. Last year a new memorial was opened in our city for veterans, where they indicated everyone who called from the region (and who died, and who disappeared, and who returned alive and who dad was captured) in general of all, the lists helped to recreate and you guys like you. Thank you both for the name of my father, and from all the people that They came not believing, but when they came and saw the names of loved ones, they cried at the memorial.
        1. Marek Rozny
          Marek Rozny 28 May 2013 14: 56 New
          +3
          Rahmet. Although there are still few results from my search activity. I restored the fate of only four missing persons (when working with archives). Faced with the fact that in addition to the famous mess with archives, there is also a mess with burials. In the latter case, the fighter’s remains were re-buried three times from one village to another (near Staraya Rusa), and, as a result, they “lost” the grave. Reloaded in 50-70 years, when they closed unpromising villages in Russia. The fact that the number of villages is decreasing is a process that, at Soviet times, was proceeding at a rather considerable pace.
          And in Ukraine I was faced with the fact that many villages in general ceased to exist after the war! And it’s hard to figure out which village was located.
          Plus, difficulties with writing Kazakh names and surnames - for example, Suleimenov / Sulimenov / Salimenov / Sulemenov, etc. We have to sort through all possible and impossible options by first name, middle name, last name.
          Now I'm trying to figure out the tracks regarding one tanker. So far to no avail. Boom to look further.
          Learned some impressive details about one of his grandfathers. Etc. I like that in Kazakhstan people are still looking for missing relatives during the war. It’s impressive that the great-grandchildren write, help me find my great-grandfather of such and such.

          And about the question that some former Kazakhstanis are afraid of transferring the capital, because they will not stand the competition again - that’s the point)))) Once they were out of work, the “nationalists” were accused. If now they become uncompetitive again, who will they blame? These "golden-armed and golden-headed" have not achieved anything in Russia anyway))) And now they are trying to convince everyone that those who stayed in the KZ are just as doomed losers as they are. Fortunately, there is someone here who is ready to sing along with them. Look at Waddy’s comments in his archive - he still accuses me of "disloyalty" to Russia)))))))))) What can I say about his "loyalty" to Kazakhstan)))) He openly writes what awaits when " Kazakhstan’s independence will end, apparently assuming that the Kazakhs will be asked to join Russia, raising their ass above their heads. I would have gathered and moved from here. Che pull and whine? How will the Russians relate to the Tajik living in Russia, who will accuse the Russians of stupidity, laziness, and dreaming out loud about the collapse of Russia? And he still worked in the civil service! Enemies are not necessary with such civil servants.
  • Semurg
    Semurg 28 May 2013 19: 41 New
    +3
    At least one person has found a great deal. At the expense of the grandchildren who are looking for their grandfathers, it is “ATA ZHETI”, in our south they try to find all their ancestors as much as possible, as in the north I probably don’t know the same. I don’t want to read about Waddy’s account, I don’t learn anything new, we just got chocks, etc. About these people say the dog barks.
  • Smoke
    Smoke 28 May 2013 23: 02 New
    -3
    two big Türks licked each other)))
    1. Marek Rozny
      Marek Rozny 29 May 2013 14: 42 New
      +1
      "Haze", evolve.