Artillery of the armored cruiser Bayan

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Artillery of the armored cruiser Bayan

Artillery The armored cruiser Bayan was armed with 2×8-inch, 8×6-inch, 20×75-mm, and 8×47-mm guns. The 8-inch guns were in turrets, all 6-inch guns and the 8×75-mm guns were in armored casemates, and the remaining guns were mounted in the open. Four 75-mm guns were mounted in the cruiser's hull under the upper deck, paired in the bow and stern, and the remaining 8 were on the upper deck above the 6-inch gun casemates. In addition, the cruiser had 8×47-mm guns, 2 of which were located on the maintop (the mast at the stern), 2 on the forward bridge, and the remaining 4 above the part of the casemate where the 75-mm guns were located. The ship also had 2×37-mm guns for arming mine-laying boats and 2×63,5-mm Baranovsky landing guns.

About the characteristics of the cruiser's guns



Brief performance characteristics of the guns of the armored cruiser Bayan


Explosive content in shells

I would like to draw the reader's attention to the fact that the information about explosives is not completely accurate, as the sources provide different information. For example, in the "Instructions to the Commanders of Batteries, Groups, and Plutongs of the Squadron Battleship Peresvet," artillery officers M. Rimsky-Korsakov and V. Cherkasov indicated the total weight of dry and wet pyroxylin in a 6-inch steel high-explosive shell as 2,44 pounds, while in the "Regard of the Naval Technical Committee to the Chairman of the Investigative Commission on the Battle of Tsushima," it is given as 2,46 pounds. The difference is small, amounting to approximately 8,2 grams, since a Russian pound is equal to 0,40951241 kg. But it is there.

In addition, I unfortunately do not have documented data on the amount of explosives in an 8-inch armor-piercing shell, so here I trusted the respected V. Polomoshnov.

Of course, the small amount of explosives in Russian high-explosive shells is noteworthy. Certainly, some of the "payload" was "eaten up" by the brass casing, necessary to prevent interaction between the pyroxylin and the shell walls—0,77% of the weight of an 8-inch high-explosive shell and 1,07% of the weight of a 6-inch shell.

However, it was impossible to replace the weight of the case with the explosive at a 1:1 ratio, even if we could figure out how to avoid the chemical interaction of the pyroxylin with the shell walls without a spacer. After all, the weight of the explosive was determined by the size of the shell chamber, so additional explosive could be added in the volume occupied by the brass case, but not in its mass. And, since the specific gravity of brass is obviously much higher than that of pyroxylin, it would still be impossible to significantly increase the explosive content in the shell.

Popular literature often cites different explosive weights in Russian shells, and unfortunately, it must be acknowledged that many authors don't pay much attention to this issue. For example, in books, we can find an explosive content of 9,3 kg in an 8-inch high-explosive shell. This was indeed the case, but not in the "Dotsushima" ammunition, but in the later 1907 shell. Moreover, 9,3 kg is the mass of TNT, not wet pyroxylin, of which the shell would have contained less. If someone had thought to equip the 1907 shells with pyroxylin, of course.

Armor penetration of Russian shells


I presented the final versions of the tables of calculated armor penetration of 8-inch and 6-inch shells to the esteemed reader in the article Shells and Armor of the Russo-Japanese War. Lessons and Conclusions, but I'll repeat them here again. The calculations were performed using de Marr's formula, with "K" coefficients of 1825, 2100, and 2275 applied to Garveyed, "improved Garveyed," and Krupp armor, respectively.




Calculated data on armor penetration of 8-inch shells


Calculated data on armor penetration of 6-inch shells

Since armor thicknesses less than 127 mm were typically not cemented, penetration values ​​below this thickness are marked in red. However, this factor is not taken into account in armor thickness calculations. For example, for Krupp armor, a resistance of "K" = 2275 was always used, even if the calculated thickness was less than 127 mm.

The data are presented for shells without armor-piercing caps, since there were no such shells in the ammunition load of the armored cruiser Bayan before it entered the Japanese fleet Not listed. A certain number of 6-inch shells equipped with armor-piercing caps were supplied to the ships of the 2nd Pacific Squadron, but they were not in Port Arthur.

Turrets of 8-inch/45 guns, model 1892


The turrets of the armored cruiser Bayan were French and, it should be noted, of a completely modern design.


The drawing is taken from the book by S. Vinogradov and A. Fedechkin "The Armored Cruiser Bayan and Its Descendants"

The firing arcs of both turrets, fore and aft, were 270 degrees. The turrets were traversed horizontally by electric motors, with a 27-degree traverse taking 59 seconds. Elevation of the gun was manual.

The gunner was alone and positioned to the right of the gun, while the turret commander was on the left. Both were protected by armored covers. The loading hatch was located to the left of the gun, and shells and charges were chambered manually using wooden rammers, manned by two enlisted men. Ammunition was fed from the magazines to the gun at a rate of one round (shell and charges) every 30 seconds, giving the turret a technical rate of fire of 2 rounds per minute.

The turret was protected by 150 mm of vertical "garveyed" armor, with a roof thickness of 30 mm. The mount's weight is usually given as 157 tons. The gun centerline height above the waterline was 8,5 m for the forward turret and 7,5 m for the aft turret. These are very good figures, guaranteeing the guns could be used in poor weather.

Casemate 6-inch/45 guns, model 1892


There's little I can add to the figures presented in the table. The field of fire for each 6-inch gun was 120 degrees. The casemates were protected by 60 mm of non-cemented armor, and the guns were also equipped with armor shields.

And there's no clarity whatsoever regarding these shields. The respected S. Vinogradov and A. Fedechkin claim that the thickness of this shield was 25 mm (more likely 1 inch), but in my opinion, they are mistaken, as they are citing the specifications of a standard 6-inch deck shield. Meanwhile, on the cruiser Admiral Makarov, built in the Bayan style, according to the testimony of its officers, the thickness of the shields for the 6-inch guns was 3,5 inch, or 88,9 mm.

Consequently, confusion arises regarding the weight of the 6-inch mount. S. Vinogradov and A. Fedechkin state it as 14,69 tons, but this is the weight of the deck mount. Meanwhile, the popular resource navweaps.com claims that the Bayan's casemate mounts weighed 16,24 tons, which could well be explained by the presence of a heavy shield. Alternatively, this weight could also be taken from Shirokorad, who states that the 6-inch mount with a 76-mm shield weighed 16,24 tons.

In fact, difficulties establishing the correct weights for artillery mounts are present not only for 6-inch guns but for many others as well. For example, the 75 mm/50 gun model 1892 lists the mount's weight as 1,72 tons. This likely originates from Shirokorad, who cited this weight for the mount with the Möller mount. However, he also gave much higher mount weights with other mounts, around four tons. A mount typically weighs roughly the same as the gun, but in this case, subtracting the 1237 kg of the gun and oscillating part from the 1720 kg mount's weight leaves us with only 483 kg for the mount and shield. Interestingly, Shirokorad lists 213 kg for the Möller mount on the 47 mm/43,5 gun, while the gun itself weighs 235,5 kg.

But enough about the weights. A major advantage of the Bayan's 6-inch guns was their ammunition feed—each gun had its own feed, eliminating the need to transport shells and charges from a single feed mechanism to multiple guns. Ammunition was transported in troughs, three rounds in each, and the feed rate ensured a rate of fire of 4-5 rounds per minute. This, of course, was lower than the technical rate of fire of 6-inch guns, but, to be fair, neither our own nor the Japanese guns typically fired even 4-5 rounds per minute in combat. Still, I'm inclined to view this limitation as a drawback.

Another drawback of the Bayan's 6-inch guns was their relatively low position above the water - 4,46 m, which was a consequence of their placement in the hull rather than on the upper deck.

Mine apparatus


The Bayan had two 15-inch (381 mm) mine tubes, each carrying three torpedoes. The most modern torpedo at the time, the 1898 model, weighed 430 kg, of which 64 kg was explosive. Their ranges were 0,4 and 0,9 km at speeds of 30 and 25 knots, respectively. In my opinion, this torpedo armament should be considered a strength of the design, and here's why.

A clear advantage was the elimination of the bow mine tube, a successful hit to which could have disabled the cruiser. Of course, the other two could have been removed, and the resulting savings in weight and volume used to enhance the cruiser's other capabilities. But, firstly, according to the prevailing views of the time, torpedo armament on cruisers was essential. Secondly, in some cases it also proved useful, allowing for the rapid sinking of an intercepted transport vessel—although the latter, due to the low power of 15-inch torpedoes, was also not always possible.

Comparison of the performance characteristics of Russian and Japanese guns with a caliber of 6-8 inch


In general, the performance characteristics of the guns installed on Russian and Japanese cruisers differed only slightly.


As far as I know, Japanese cruisers used comparatively light 8-inch shells weighing 95,3 kg in the naval battles of 1904–1905, although many sources cite heavier, 113,4 kg shells. The latter significantly exceeded our 8-inch shells in explosive content: the respected V. Polomoshnov cites 5,66 kg/10,19 kg for armor-piercing/high-explosive shells, while Russian shells (documented data) had an explosive content of 1,47 kg/2,42 kg.

Of course, in this comparison, we can ignore armor-piercing shells, as the Japanese didn't have armor-piercing shells in the classic sense. What they called armor-piercing should have been considered high-explosive, or perhaps at best, semi-armor-piercing shells. But it's quite clear that even if Mikado's sailors did use lightweight 95,3 kg shells, they still contained at least 2,5–3 times more explosive than our own.

As for 6-inch shells, V. Polomoshnov gives an explosive content of 2,49/6,01 kg for armor-piercing and high-explosive shells, respectively. For our shells, it was 0,63/1,0 kg.

Comparison of the artillery of the armored cruiser Bayan with Japanese cruisers


At first glance, comparing the artillery of the armored cruiser Bayan and Izumo with that of Nisshin is shocking and awe-inspiring, as the Japanese cruisers, with their 4×8-inch and 14×6-inch guns, were almost twice as powerful in these calibers as the Bayan. However, the devil, as they say, is in the details.

The main caliber of Russian and Japanese cruisers


Studying stories The Russo-Japanese War led me to a rather curious conclusion. In my opinion, twin 8-inch turrets were premature for that historical period.

Let's look at the expenditure of shells in battle. Let's begin with the battle of January 27, 1904, when the Combined Fleet, with almost its entire main force (the only missing item was the armored cruiser Asama, which was engaged with the Varyag), attacked our squadron near Port Arthur.

If my data is correct, the Japanese expended 209 8-inch shells in this battle. Of these, 26 8-inch guns were deployed on their side, 20 of which were on armored cruisers and another 6 on three armored deck "dogs." This equates to an average of 8 shells per gun. Let's assume that the "dogs" didn't fire their 8-inch guns at all, which is impossible—they were following in the wake of H. Kamimura's cruisers and participated in the battle. Then it turns out that the Japanese armored cruisers expended approximately 10,5 shells per gun, or 41-42 shells per cruiser.

Meanwhile, the armored cruiser Bayan expended 28 8-inch shells, or 14 shells per gun. Considering that the eight-inch guns of the "dogs" did participate in the battle, the twin-gun Bayan expended slightly fewer shells than the four-gun Japanese cruisers.

Let's now look at the battle in the Korea Strait, when H. Kamimura finally managed to intercept the cruisers of the Vladivostok detachment. The Japanese ships could fire four 8-inch guns per side, while the Russians could only fire two. However, the Japanese cruisers, on average, fired only 47% more 8-inch shells than the Russians—239,5 versus 163.


However, even these figures are incomplete and unsuitable for comparison. The fact is that all 16 Japanese 8-inch guns were undamaged during the battle and remained operational until the end. Meanwhile, Gromoboi lost its left aft 2-inch gun early in the battle, and Rossiya had only two aft guns still operational by the end.

And so it turns out that the Japanese cruisers, firing 16 8-inch guns throughout the battle, expended 958 shells of that caliber, while the Russian cruisers Gromoboy and Rossiya, firing an average of at least three guns, expended 326 shells. This means that, on average (rounded up), one Japanese 8-inch gun expended almost 60 shells, while one Russian gun expended 109! Taking the maximum rate of fire into account, the Japanese Azuma expended 276 shells, which gives 69 shells per gun, while one 8-inch gun on the Rossiya, which operated the entire battle without damage, expended 120 shells.

In other words, if Russian 8-inch guns had remained operational throughout the entire battle, just like the Japanese, then our cruisers, firing two such guns, would have expended an average of 218 shells per cruiser, while the Japanese, firing four guns, would have expended 240. It turns out that by doubling the number of barrels per side, the Japanese achieved only a mere 10% increase in firepower!

In the Battle of Tsushima, H. Kamimura's Japanese armored cruisers expended even fewer 8-inch shells than in the battle with K. P. Jessen's detachment - 915 units, that is, 152-153 shells per ship (in Tsushima, H. Kamimura had not 4 cruisers, but 6, and the battle with the FOC lasted longer).

Let's now recall the Battle of Gotland, since it involved two cruisers built to the Bayan design. It should be noted that although the turret designs of the Bayan II and Admiral Makarov were different, there were no fundamental differences. The Admiral Makarov fired at the Augsburg and Albatross for an hour and a half at most, expending approximately 130 shells. The Bayan II, engaging the Roon, fired 40 8-inch shells in half an hour.

In other words, when we read that the Asamoids had four 8-inch guns versus the Bayan's two, we imagine that the Japanese cruisers' main guns were twice as powerful. But this is absolutely not the case, and one can assume that if the Japanese had replaced their twin-gun turrets with single-gun turrets, their firepower would have dropped by no less than 10-15 percent, not by half.

Incidentally, the same thing was observed with the Italian cruisers. The Nissin and Kasuga, each with six 8-inch guns in their broadsides, expended 307 shells of that caliber in the Battle of the Yellow Sea, or approximately 51 shells per gun, while at Tsushima, they expended 284. However, the latter is less significant, as the Nissin's guns were inoperable.

Why were the twin-gun 8-inch turrets so slow?


Russian-language sources have written extensively about the shortcomings of the turrets on British-built Japanese cruisers. Among them is the presence of only one elevator for two guns, which, of course, was half as many as needed and in no way ensured the required rate of delivery of shells and propellants. To somehow maintain an acceptable rate of fire, a significant portion of the shells were stored in the turret, while the propellants were stored in magazines located beneath the armored deck.

At the start of the battle, the loaders used shells stored in the turret, and the charges for both guns were lifted by a single elevator. This method allowed each turret to fire 62 shells, but after that, the rate of fire would drop sharply, as the elevator simply wouldn't be able to lift the required number of shells and charges from the magazines.

While this certainly played a role in a prolonged battle, I still don't consider the single elevator to be the key problem with the Japanese 8-inch turrets. Simply put, the Azuma turrets were perfectly adequate; all shells and charges were stored in magazines, and two elevators—one for each gun—handled the ammunition. But in the battle with the cruisers of the Vladivostok detachment, Azuma fired 276 shells, while the other three cruisers with single-elevator turrets averaged 227-228 shells.

It turns out that the single-elevator 8-inch twin-gun turret of the British-built Japanese armored cruisers demonstrated approximately the same firepower as a single deck or casemate gun on the armored cruisers Rossiya and Gromoboi. It turns out that in this regard, the British-built Japanese cruisers, with four eight-inch guns in their broadside, were almost no superior to the FOC cruisers until their guns failed. And the firepower advantage of the Azuma's "correct" turrets over the Rurikovichs, with a double advantage in broadside 8-inch guns, would have been only 27%.

Therefore, I believe the main reason for the low firepower of twin 8-inch turrets is the crowding and difficulty of servicing two guns in the cramped space of the turrets. This inconvenience was eventually overcome by automating the loading process, but during the Russo-Japanese War, loading 6-8-inch caliber turret guns was essentially manual. At the same time, single-gun turrets provided more space for the crews and were more convenient for their work, which is why their rate of fire closely approached that of deck-mounted 8-inch mounts. This is evident from the firing results of the Bayan in the battle of January 27, 1904, and from the combat rates of fire of the 8-inch guns of the Bayan II and Admiral Makarov off Gotland.

My assessment of the firepower of single- and twin-gun 8-inch turrets is indirectly confirmed by the fact that the French Navy was in no rush to implement them and for a long time preferred single-gun turrets with 194-mm guns. Even Britain, mistress of the seas, even in late 1903 and early 1904 laid down four Warrior-class armored cruisers, whose main battery—six 9,2-inch (234-mm) guns—was housed in single-gun turrets.


Warrior-class armored cruiser Achilles

Did they know something like that?

Some conclusions


This article does not finish the discussion about the artillery of the armored cruiser Bayan, but some conclusions should be made now.

When setting the specifications for an armored cruiser for their navy, the Japanese wanted to pack maximum armament, protection, and speed into a minimum displacement. The British accommodated them, fortunately, a solvent customer is always right, and the Japanese got what they ordered.

But, alas, miracles don't happen, and it's true what they say: if you mount ten guns on an eight-gun ship, only six will be operational. Technically, the British accomplished their goal by installing 4×8-inch guns on cruisers built for Japan. In reality, by cramming the 8-inch guns into relatively small twin turrets with minimal mechanization, the British reduced their combat effectiveness by approximately half.

It's important to understand, and I want to emphasize this, that we're not talking about technical rate of fire, which plays a minor role in combat. The point is that, in combat, the effectiveness of the 8-inch caliber guns of British-built Japanese cruisers with two twin-gun turrets was virtually identical to that of a cruiser with the same number of single-gun turrets. If that's the case, why waste weight and money? After all, by using single-gun turrets, the cruiser's ends could be lightened, and the weight saved could be used to improve other performance characteristics.

As for the medium caliber, Izumo certainly outnumbered Bayan in terms of the number of six-inch guns. Moreover, Izumo's 6-inch guns were better positioned than Bayan's, as Izumo only had 6 guns below the upper deck, where all the Russian cruiser's 6-inch guns were located, while the remaining 8 were located "above," on the upper deck.

Russian-language popular science literature almost always mentions the poor seaworthiness of Japanese armored cruisers, and this is true, as they lacked a forecastle and had a low hull. The barrel axes of the Japanese 8-inch guns were even lower than those of the cruiser Bayan's aft turret—for the Asama, these were 7,2 meters (fore turret) and 6,5 meters (aft turret), while, as noted above, the Bayan's aft turret had a barrel axe of 7,5 meters.

But despite all this, the gun axes of the eight 6-inch guns on the Izumo's upper deck rose above the waterline by certainly more than 6 meters, at least 1,6 meters higher than those of the Bayan. This obviously gave the Japanese cruisers an advantage in gunnery training in strong weather, since gunnery training in those days was primarily conducted with 6-inch guns.

Therefore, one can only regret that the MTC did not accept Rear Admiral N.N. Lomen's proposal to construct "two-story" casemates, which would have placed four of the Bayan's eight 6-inch guns on the upper deck. In this case, the cruiser would have been comparable to the Japanese Asamoids in terms of ease of gunnery.

Another obvious shortcoming was the excessive reliance on 75mm artillery by domestic admirals. The Diana-class cruisers were armed with 24 such guns, while the Bayan, apparently taking pity on them, was given only 20, but even this was an excessive amount. Subsequently, the number of 75mm guns was reduced to 12 on the large armored deck cruisers of the "six-thousander" class, and to 20 on the enormous Borodino-class battleships, which had almost twice the displacement of the Bayan.

Of course, determining the weight of artillery mounts is a challenging task, as I've written about previously, but we can use the weight data provided to the French for the Bayan design as a starting point. The weight of the mount, including ammunition, gun accessories, mount, and 3-inch shield, was determined as follows:

1. 8-dm/45 gun mod. 1892 - 49,3 tons;
2. 6-dm/45 gun mod. 1892 - 28,2 tons;
3. 75 mm/50 gun model 1892 - 6,4 tons (without shield).

Therefore, it can be said that four 75mm guns could have been replaced with a single six-inch gun. It's worth remembering that, in addition to the weight savings, such a solution would have saved on gun crews, reduced the overall crew size, and, consequently, reduced the need for food and other supplies to support them.

There was absolutely nothing to stop Bayan from mounting ten 6-inch guns on the hull, reducing the number of 75mm guns to twelve. This wouldn't have increased armor weight; in fact, it would have actually reduced it, as two additional six-inch guns could have been installed in place of the eight 75mm guns currently housed in the casemate. Furthermore, it's quite obvious that two six-inch guns would require less casemate space than eight 75mm guns, so the size of Bayan's central casemate could even be reduced.

Unfortunately, none of this was done, and we can only confirm the clear superiority of the Japanese cruisers in 6-inch guns. On the other hand, it should be noted that guns of this caliber could not inflict decisive damage in a battle between armored ships. But we will discuss this in more detail in the next article, dedicated to the armor of the cruiser Bayan compared to Japanese armored cruisers.

Продолжение следует ...

P.S. As mentioned above, the Combined Fleet lacked fully-fledged armor-piercing shells during the Russo-Japanese War, so the calculations below should be viewed as nothing more than a game of wits. How could our naval officers have estimated the armor-piercing capabilities of Japanese guns before the Russo-Japanese War? What would the capabilities of Japanese guns have been if they had been equipped with high-quality armor-piercing shells? These are certainly questions of alternative history, but why not answer them?


Calculation of armor penetration for the “heavy” and “light” 8-inch shells in comparison with the Russian 8-inch shell, armor - “improved Harvey”, “K” = 2100


Calculation of armor penetration for 6-inch Russian and Japanese guns, armor - "improved Harvey", "K" = 2100
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  1. +2
    2 June 2026 05: 32
    The article touches on the topic of rate of fire. I've always been curious; maybe someone could shed some light on this. Why did the rate of fire of guns increase from 0.7-1 to 3 for main caliber guns and from 2-3 to 4-8 for 6-inch guns between the Russian-Japanese War and WWI? Did mechanization really make such a significant difference in the space of about 10 years?
    1. +6
      2 June 2026 06: 08
      Yes, it did. It's hard to find a leap in naval artillery development like the one between the Russian Nuclear War and World War I. The turret design was radically changed; the Jeni coupling alone is worth a look. In general, the main battery guns and mounts of WWI are much closer to those of WWII than those of the Russian Nuclear War, often differing only in their lighter barrels.
      It finally dawned on the admirals that rate of fire was one of the most important factors in ensuring victory.
      1. +2
        2 June 2026 08: 24
        Quote: Grossvater
        The admirals finally got it

        I wouldn't say so :)))) They always wanted to, but the industry just couldn't. The Jenny clutch—that was an early 20th-century invention, if my sclerosis isn't lying to me?
      2. +3
        3 June 2026 19: 49
        Everyone was preparing for the last war, as always, the last one was the Spanish-American War, where small arms showed themselves well, but large caliber ones were so-so.
        Here our guys also made a false conclusion about the uselessness of shields for open guns.
      3. 0
        9 July 2026 22: 08
        Dukelsky, "History of tower installations 1886-1917." 1931 edition.
        Available online.
        A comprehensive overview of all hydraulic and electrical turret installations of the Russian fleet up to and including World War I, as well as the design of gun mounts and breechblocks for naval guns.
    2. +5
      2 June 2026 22: 24
      Quote: tjeck91
      Why did the rate of fire of guns increase from 0.7-1 to 3 for main caliber guns and from 2-3 to 4-8 for 6-inch guns between the Russian-Japanese war and WWI? Did mechanization really make such a big difference in about 10 years?

      In turret AUs, electric drives for the bolts were introduced, the loading mechanization was improved (where it existed), or introduced where it did not exist.

      "On April 12, 1905, the Chairman of the Ministry of Defense, Vice-Admiral F.V. Dubasov, in his report to the then head of the Naval Ministry, F.K. Avelan, noted that "the turret mounts of the [first] cruiser Bayan did not have mechanical devices for loading and therefore modern requirements for rapid firing cannot be applied to them." In connection with this, the Forge et Chantiers company was asked to rework the design of the 8"/45 mounts for the Admiral Makarov, achieving a rate of fire of at least 3 rounds per minute." (The casemate 8" on Russian pre-dreadnought battleships still demonstrated a higher maximum rate of fire of about 4 rounds per minute by the beginning of WWI)

      Instead of horizontal turret aiming using so-called "dotting," smooth horizontal aiming was implemented using Jenny clutches (the Jenny clutch was invented in 1907 in the USA). Jenny clutches were also introduced for vertical aiming of the turret guns (the "Bayan" and the "Poltava"-class battleships generally had manual vertical aiming drives for the 8" and 6" turrets).

      More advanced breechblocks were introduced in casemate and deck installations; for example, the Vickers breechblock (model 1905) on the 203 mm/50 gun was significantly more advanced than the classic Canet piston breechblock due to the use of stepped rifling (the Welin principle) shortening the breechblock piston and a single-stroke (continuous) opening mechanism, instead of the three-stroke mechanism on the Canet breechblock.

      And the crews of hand-loaded guns were trained to achieve maximum rate of fire. This was something that had received very little attention in the Russian Navy before the Russo-Japanese War.
    3. +2
      3 June 2026 04: 15
      With the exception of one episode (which should be analyzed in detail, to see who fired for how long), the rate of fire of deck-mounted 8" guns is compared with that of turret-mounted guns.
      And the conclusion is that turret installations are inferior in rate of fire to deck-based ones, but the latter were not on Bayan.
      Am I the only one who finds this strange?
      1. +1
        3 June 2026 06: 39
        Quote: Jura 27
        Except for one episode

        Actually, three:))))
        1. 0
          3 June 2026 16: 26
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Quote: Jura 27
          Except for one episode

          Actually, three:))))

          And where are the other two in the article?
          1. 0
            4 June 2026 07: 54
            Let's now recall the Battle of Gotland, since it involved two cruisers built to the Bayan design. It should be noted that although the turret designs of the Bayan II and Admiral Makarov were different, there were no fundamental differences. The Admiral Makarov fired at the Augsburg and Albatross for an hour and a half at most, expending approximately 130 shells. The Bayan II, engaging the Roon, fired 40 8-inch shells in half an hour.
            1. 0
              4 June 2026 14: 58
              that although the design of the turrets of the Bayan II and Admiral Makarov was different, there were no fundamental differences

              The feed is twice as fast, the lock is faster, but yes, basically everything is the same.
              1. +2
                4 June 2026 15: 12
                Quote: Jura 27
                Serving twice as fast

                Why? Both are fed manually.
                Quote: Jura 27
                a faster lock

                It wasn't a bottleneck in this case. The Bayan 1900 maintained fire with the old breech—28 rounds in about 40 minutes of combat on January 27, which was similar to the rate of fire of the Asamoids, meaning the breech didn't interfere with its ability to maintain such a rate. The Bayan II and Makarov, however, showed higher rates, suggesting that the manual feed of these turrets didn't prevent a ship with two single-gun turrets from out-firing an Asamoid with twin turrets.
                1. +2
                  5 June 2026 04: 16
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  Serving twice as fast

                  Why? Both are fed manually.

                  Manual, this is after lifting the chargers into the turret, on the side of the gun.
                  And the number of chargers themselves doubled: “the introduction of paired, balanced relative to each other, chargers, which in theory doubled the speed of supplying ammunition from the cellars to the fighting compartment.”
                  The lock is okay, it’s not critical, they’ll probably still have time to open it while they’re dragging the shell from the charger to the breech.

                  It is still unclear how magically a single-gun turret is equal to a two-gun turret:
                  - the range is determined by sighting, the guns are loaded, - a salvo is fired. Four shells against two in favor of the Japanese.
                  - assuming coverage (if not, then re-sighting), shells and charges (on the Aces, only charges; shells are in the turret) are removed from the loaders, loaded, sent in, - another salvo. Again, a double advantage for the Aces.
                  - Let's say there's another cover, the loaders in both turrets are lowered, the breechblocks open, and the ASMs are loading and feeding shells from the turret. Let's assume the loaders are lowering and raising at the same speed, and the Bayan is loading and feeding shells and semi-charges, while the ASMs are only loading and feeding semi-charges.
                  That is, while there are shells in the turrets, theoretically, the rate of fire of the aces is more than twice as high.
                  1. +1
                    5 June 2026 07: 36
                    Yura, welcome!
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    And the number of chargers themselves doubled: “the introduction of paired, balanced relative to each other, chargers, which in theory doubled the speed of supplying ammunition from the cellars to the fighting compartment.”

                    On the one hand, it is stated that the Bayan 1's feed mechanisms provided a feed rate of one round every 30 seconds. On the other hand, it is stated that the new feed mechanisms provided a feed rate of 18,3 seconds (3 rounds in 55 seconds). On the other hand, let's take the same Bayan 2, which expended 40 rounds in half an hour during combat with the Roon—the maximum recorded rate of fire. This equates to a shot every one and a half minutes. Therefore, it is highly doubtful that the feed mechanisms were the bottleneck.
                    Now let's remember the continuation of the quote you gave.
                    The origin of this idea is unclear; it did not catch on in the Russian navy after Bayan and was only used again in 1912, during the design of the three-gun 14" mounts of the Izmail-class battlecruisers (battleships), for which the technical specifications specified a very high rate of fire - 3 shots per gun per minute.

                    As far as I'm concerned, it turned out this way. The design called for mechanical rammers, which were supposed to significantly increase the loading speed of the Bayan 2 and Makarov guns, but the bottleneck at the time was the feed from the magazines. So they increased it. But in practice, the mechanical rammer proved unsatisfactory, so it was removed. With the return to manual rammers, the rammers you recommended became redundant.
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    It is still unclear how magically a single-gun turret is equal to a two-gun turret.

                    I suspect the problem is crowding—the Aces' barrels were 1,83 meters apart, and the crew couldn't load two guns simultaneously at the same speed as one. So, it's trivial—there's only one feed tray, but is it convenient to transfer ammunition from it to two guns simultaneously?
                  2. +1
                    5 June 2026 07: 36
                    Yura, welcome!
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    And the number of chargers themselves doubled: “the introduction of paired, balanced relative to each other, chargers, which in theory doubled the speed of supplying ammunition from the cellars to the fighting compartment.”

                    On the one hand, it is stated that the Bayan 1's feed mechanisms provided a feed rate of one round every 30 seconds. On the other hand, it is stated that the new feed mechanisms provided a feed rate of 18,3 seconds (3 rounds in 55 seconds). On the other hand, let's take the same Bayan 2, which expended 40 rounds in half an hour during combat with the Roon—the maximum recorded rate of fire. This equates to a shot every one and a half minutes. Therefore, it is highly doubtful that the feed mechanisms were the bottleneck.
                    Now let's remember the continuation of the quote you gave.
                    The origin of this idea is unclear; it did not catch on in the Russian navy after Bayan and was only used again in 1912, during the design of the three-gun 14" mounts of the Izmail-class battlecruisers (battleships), for which the technical specifications specified a very high rate of fire - 3 shots per gun per minute.

                    As far as I'm concerned, it turned out this way. The design called for mechanical rammers, which were supposed to significantly increase the loading speed of the Bayan 2 and Makarov guns, but the bottleneck at the time was the feed from the magazines. So they increased it. But in practice, the mechanical rammer proved unsatisfactory, so it was removed. With the return to manual rammers, the rammers you recommended became redundant.
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    It is still unclear how magically a single-gun turret is equal to a two-gun turret.

                    I suspect the problem is crowding—the Aces' barrels were 1,83 meters apart, and the crew couldn't load two guns simultaneously at the same speed as one. So, it's trivial—there's only one feed tray, but is it convenient to transfer ammunition from it to two guns simultaneously?
                    1. +2
                      5 June 2026 16: 01
                      But in practice it turned out that the mechanical chambering did not justify itself, it was removed, and with the return to manual chambering,

                      What does chambering have to do with it if you don't have shells and charges for chambering, because the loader has gone down after the shell and semi-charges.

                      I believe the problem was crowding - the distance between the barrel axes of the Asams was 1,83 m and the crew was not able to load two guns at the same time at the same speed as one.

                      There's a difference of a few seconds, half-charges are relatively light, one guy takes it, carries it to the breech, then a second guy takes another half-charge and carries it to the second gun; while the chambering is in progress, the second half-charges are already being brought in.
                      Therefore, the conclusions about the same rate of fire of single and twin-gun turrets are incorrect (of course, provided that the turrets have shells).
                      1. +1
                        5 June 2026 17: 01
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        What does chambering have to do with it if you don't have shells and charges for chambering, because the loader has gone down after the shell and semi-charges.

                        Who said it didn't exist? In Bayan, the hoist delivered the shell and charge in 30 seconds, in Bayan 2, it took 18, and the turret fired once every one and a half to two minutes. So, it's very likely that on Bayan 1, the loader was idle, waiting for the gun to be loaded.
                        I'll reiterate my point: the bottleneck was the manual loading. When they thought it could be improved with a mechanical rammer, they decided to speed up the feed into the turret with dual loaders. Since the loading speed didn't work, the dual loaders were no longer necessary.
                        This is indirectly confirmed by the fact that the deck guns fired faster than the asamoid turret without double loaders.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        There is a difference of a few seconds, half-charges, relatively light, one guy takes it, carries it to the breech, then the second guy takes another half-charge and carries it to the second gun;

                        Yura, sure, the ammunition is fine, but what about the shells? They had to be hauled somehow, transported to the gun, and then loaded... And there are two guns, and the turret is so cramped that the crew can't stand on either side of each gun.
                      2. 0
                        6 June 2026 10: 55
                        Who said it doesn't exist? In Bayan, the elevator delivered the shell and charge in 30 seconds.

                        And 30 seconds back to the cellar.

                        I can repeat my thought once again - the bottleneck was precisely the manual loading.

                        No. The chambering takes 3-4 seconds.

                        This is indirectly confirmed by the fact that the deck guns fired faster than the asamoid turret without double loaders.

                        No. There were shells and charges there, and they could be constantly brought to the gun. You just opened the breech after firing, picked up the shell, and immediately chambered it, then the same thing with the semi-charges. The technical rate of fire is equal to three chamberings, plus opening and closing the breech.

                        What about the shells? They had to be hauled somehow, transported to the gun, and then fed in.

                        On Bayan it's exactly the same, only less convenient, since the lift is on the side of the gun.

                        There are two guns and the turret is so cramped that the crew cannot stand on either side of each gun.

                        Why stand on either side? The shell is hanging on the scoop, on the loading line—open the lock and load it from behind.
                      3. +2
                        6 June 2026 12: 03
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        And 30 seconds back to the cellar.

                        The feed provided 2 shots per minute, so you are mistaken.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        No. The chambering takes 3-4 seconds.

                        Chambering – charges. And the full loading cycle is the transport and chambering of the projectile, and then the charges.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        No. There were shells and charges there, and they could be constantly brought to the gun.

                        Yura, where could they be constantly supplied from? :)))) They were supplied from the cellar, and nowhere else. And the cellars only had one charger:)))
                        So, the "single-shot" elevator in no way interfered with the rate of fire of a twin-gun turret on a deck or casemate 8-inch mount. Why would it interfere with the Bayan's turret's rate of fire?
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        On Bayan it's exactly the same, only less convenient, since the lift is on the side of the gun.

                        62 shells from the first shots were placed in a semicircle along the rear side of the turret and under the turret floor, making access to them much more inconvenient.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Why stand on either side? The shell is hanging on the scoop, on the loading line—open the lock and load it from behind.

                        I doubt there was enough room in the turret for two people to hold the loader "in series", that is, one after the other.
                      4. 0
                        7 June 2026 15: 20
                        The feed provided 2 shots per minute, so you are mistaken.

                        You wrote that "the elevator delivered the projectile with the charge in 30 seconds," which logically implies that in addition to the delivery, there is also the descent of the charger into the cellar, which takes approximately the same amount of time.

                        [/Sending - charges.

                        And the shells too - the effort is greater, yes, but the time is approximately the same, maybe a second or two longer.

                        Yura, where could they be constantly brought from?

                        From the elevator, of course. While you're hauling, the elevator is lowering and raising. The deckhouse is loaded and unloaded very quickly because it's easy to operate. This explains the higher rate of fire of deck guns compared to turret guns.

                        62 shells from the first shots were placed in a semicircle along the rear side of the turret and under the turret floor, making access to them much more inconvenient.

                        More precisely, it was much more convenient, since the elevator shaft was sandwiched between the side wall of the turret and the gun mount.
                        And for the Japanese, it’s like in a tank: take it and load it into the gun.

                        I doubt there was enough room in the turret for two people to hold the charger.

                        The loader is in the hoist shaft. Near the breech is a scoop, hanging on a hoist (or held by hand), and the loader, behind the shell, pushes it into the barrel.
                      5. +2
                        7 June 2026 15: 47
                        Quote: Jura 27

                        You wrote that "the elevator delivered the projectile with the charge in 30 seconds," which logically implies that in addition to the delivery, there is also the descent of the charger into the cellar, which takes approximately the same amount of time.

                        Let's read it again
                        The rate of supply of ammunition from the magazines to the gun was 1 shot (projectile with charges) every 30 seconds, which ensured the technical rate of fire of the turret of 2 rounds/min.

                        Why you decided to only include the rise time in the ammunition supply is beyond me. And in any case, the only thing I can say here is that my wording is unclear. Although, what's unclear about it is completely unclear.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        And the shells too - the effort is greater, yes, but the time is approximately the same, maybe a second or two longer.

                        We took the cartridges from the tray, and it rolled down. We still have to put the cartridges down, feed them, close the breech, return the elevation angle to the correct position, fire the round, return the gun to the loading angle, open the breech...
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        From the elevator, of course. While you're hauling, the elevator is working to raise and lower the load.

                        So I can’t understand why the same elevator can provide the rate of fire of a deck gun, but cannot provide the same rate of fire of a turret gun.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        More precisely, it was much more convenient, since the elevator shaft was sandwiched between the side wall of the turret and the gun mount.

                        Are you already making jokes at the expense of a poor Jew? :))) Look closely at the presentation
                        The tray extends directly to the gun, the shell lies horizontally, and you immediately hook it up with a winch and feed it to the gun's centerline. And the space between the turret wall and the tray is more than
                        Or asamoids, where the projectile lies far away, and even vertically, it needs to be somehow hooked, turned from vertical to horizontal, dragged to the gun...
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Charger in the elevator shaft

                        I meant the swash plate
      2. +3
        3 June 2026 07: 37
        Quote: Jura 27
        And the conclusion is that turret installations are inferior in rate of fire to deck-based ones, but the latter were not on Bayan.

        I read at one time on Tsushima that the rate of fire of single-gun turrets was practically no different from that of deck mounts.
        1. 0
          3 June 2026 16: 25
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          Quote: Jura 27
          And the conclusion is that turret installations are inferior in rate of fire to deck-based ones, but the latter were not on Bayan.

          I read at one time on Tsushima that the rate of fire of single-gun turrets was practically no different from that of deck mounts.

          Cutlets should be kept separate from flies.
    4. +2
      3 June 2026 16: 51
      That's why it was believed back then that casemate guns had a better rate of fire. Everyone knew what the turrets of those days were like.
      1. -1
        3 June 2026 19: 08
        Quote: MCmaximus
        Everyone knew what the towers of that time were.

        Everyone except the Russian Imperial Navy, which produced a ton of unfinished six-inch turrets on its ships
        1. +3
          3 June 2026 20: 10
          Quote: clou
          Everyone except the Russian Imperial Navy, which produced a ton of unfinished six-inch turrets on its ships

          Except for the French and Germans
    5. 0
      9 July 2026 22: 07
      Dukelsky, "History of tower installations 1886-1917." 1931 edition.
      Available online.
      A comprehensive overview of all hydraulic and electrical turret installations of the Russian fleet up to and including World War I, as well as the design of gun mounts and breechblocks for naval guns.
  2. +7
    2 June 2026 05: 57
    Another obvious drawback was the excessive enthusiasm of domestic admirals for 75-mm artillery.

    I completely agree. Moreover, I generally consider the 75mm Kane gun, despite its excellent ballistics, to be the most useless weapon in the Russian Navy.
    For a destroyer, such ballistics were simply excessive, as firing from the shaky deck of a 250-350-ton vessel more than a couple of kilometers was completely pointless, and on larger vessels, a larger caliber would have been more appropriate. The British 3"/40 was half the weight.
    1. +6
      2 June 2026 06: 05
      By the beginning of the First World War, Diana-class cruisers received 14 six-inch guns instead of 8 (Aurora received 130 mm during the civil war).
      1. +6
        2 June 2026 06: 32
        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        By the beginning of the First World War, Diana-class cruisers received 14 six-inch guns instead of 8 (Aurora received 130 mm during the civil war).

        The second "bayans" also got rid of the 75mm guns and received 1-8" and 4-6" guns. The Rossiya and Gromoboi also increased their armament at the expense of small arms. So, this was more a case of correcting mistakes across the entire fleet.
    2. +2
      3 June 2026 19: 14
      Quote: Grossvater
      For a destroyer, such ballistics were simply excessive, because shooting from the shaky deck of a 250-350 ton vessel more than a couple of kilometers was completely pointless,

      They could have asked the army for 87/24. Three of them would have fit just right on a standard Falcon.
      On the topic: Bayan's senior officer, along with one of his lieutenants, requested during construction that the central three-inch guns be replaced with a smaller number of six-inch guns. They replied, "No, the project has been approved by the Tsar!"
      1. 0
        4 June 2026 08: 56
        Quote: clou
        Just 3 pieces would fit on a standard falcon.

        It would have been better if they had brought all the standard Falcons to Arthur, and maybe they wouldn't have wasted the battle for the outer raid...
        1. +1
          5 June 2026 16: 03
          There would simply be nowhere to repair them.
          1. -2
            6 June 2026 12: 56
            Well, maybe we just shouldn't break it???
            1. +2
              8 June 2026 12: 16
              You don't have to break them, but then it's better not to launch them. And if the ship is afloat, there will always be problems. You need to have a proper repair base, and the Russian navy has traditionally been poor at that.
              1. +1
                11 June 2026 16: 01
                Quote: TermNachTER
                You don't have to break them, but then it's better not to launch them. And if the ship is afloat, there will always be problems. You need to have a proper repair base, and the Russian navy has traditionally been poor at that.

                Unlike battleships, Arthurian cruisers and, especially, destroyers, were even provided with dock repairs, and until they broke in half (or so), they were repaired quite successfully... The "not breaking" part was a joke... Given the much greater intensity of use than those of battleships, routine repairs are inevitable...
                1. 0
                  12 June 2026 12: 36
                  Yes, but the build quality of the Port Arthur destroyers was very sad, everyone who sailed on them writes about this.
                  1. 0
                    12 June 2026 14: 13
                    That's why I suggest going with quantity; their "quality" should be sufficient for battles for the outer raid...
                    1. 0
                      12 June 2026 14: 30
                      Coastal batteries would have been sufficient to control the outer roadstead, if there had been enough of them and they had been placed wisely.
                      1. +1
                        12 June 2026 15: 03
                        The Japanese dropped mines at night...
                      2. 0
                        12 June 2026 15: 07
                        There were plenty of batteries, but mounting mortars on them, especially ancient ones? I think the 10/45 would have looked much better on the Golden Mountain...
                      3. 0
                        12 June 2026 18: 39
                        They were above, targeting the larger ships. And against the destroyers, smaller, rapid-fire ones were closer to the water's edge. There were searchlights in Arthur, so there was plenty of light for the roadstead.
                      4. +1
                        12 June 2026 18: 54
                        Kol, do you even believe this???
                      5. +1
                        12 June 2026 19: 00
                        Only forceful counteraction on land (on water in this case)... "Sokol" should be pulled out against the numbered ones...
                      6. 0
                        12 June 2026 20: 33
                        What's the problem? 120mm mines and searchlights are enough near the shore. Further afield, the depths aren't suitable for the mines of the time. And it's February and April, with the weather being harsh—storms can blow mines off their moorings. I don't deny that countermeasures are necessary, but not like the Steregushchiy and Strashny.
  3. +3
    2 June 2026 06: 34
    And the advantage in fire performance of the “correct” turrets of the “Azuma” over the “Rurikovichs”, with a double superiority in the broadside salvo of 8-inch guns, would have been only 27%.

    The Japanese were able to realize their advantage in a fleeting night battle at short range.
    When almost every shell hits its target. Although perhaps 152mm guns would have been more effective in this situation.
    Andrey, thank you for the essay about Bayan!
    1. +5
      2 June 2026 08: 07
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      The Japanese were able to realize their advantage in a fleeting night battle at short range.

      The article isn't about technical rate of fire, but rather about combat rate of fire. It's clear that in combat, everyone strives to fire as quickly as possible, but not at the expense of the intended target—waiting for sighting results, the work of the gunners during rapid fire, and the fatigue of the crews all play a role. Therefore, the Azuma would have had the stated advantage at any range.
  4. +2
    2 June 2026 08: 08
    The French's penchant for their "strange" calibers becomes more understandable. Apparently, with the necessary technological advances, they based their design on the available artillery and the desired number of barrels, tailoring the caliber to each project.
    Bayan, all of these wouldn't hurt: 6 x 8-inch (2 in the turret and 4 in the casemates) and 12 x 120mm + some for the boats. Ideally, 10 x 8-inch, but that's just too much.
    Thanks for the work!

    Have you considered submitting your articles to a sponsor? You could include more graphics and write more extensively, as there would be a financial incentive? Is that more interesting than poring over yet another monograph over and over again, trying to find something new?
    1. +4
      2 June 2026 08: 18
      Quote: uber
      Bayan, all of these wouldn’t hurt 6 by 8 inches (2 in the turret and 4 in the casemates) and 12 by 120 mm

      Then it would no longer be a Bayan, but a heavier cruiser, unless the 75mm guns were completely excluded and the 120mm guns were installed mainly in the open.
      Quote: uber
      Have you thought about posting articles on a sponsor?

      What kind of beast is this?
      1. +1
        2 June 2026 19: 31
        Good day! If we're considering alternative armament, it's the Gromoboy with 12-8"/45mm guns in casemates. It's a clear weight match for the 4-8" and 16-152mm guns!
        1. +1
          2 June 2026 19: 36
          That's good, but it's not working—we'll have to build much more massive casemates. But the main thing is—what are we going to aim with? :))))
          1. 0
            2 June 2026 19: 54
            Six 203mm guns per side, rate of fire around 2 rounds per minute (with Rosenberg lock). Isn't 12 rounds per minute per side enough for sighting in?
            P.S. After the RYA with the Vickers lock, the rate of fire was generally up to 6 shots per minute with a projectile weighing 87,8 or up to 4 shots with 112 kg projectiles, model 1907!
          2. 0
            2 June 2026 20: 09
            Regarding the casemates, there will be far fewer of them for 8" guns than for 152mm ones, so in general, more massive casemates will not create a large overload for a cruiser with a displacement of more than 12000 tons.
            1. +2
              2 June 2026 20: 44
              Quote: 65-73
              Regarding casemates, there will be much less of them for 8" guns than for 152mm ones,

              Okay, but there won't be any protection for anti-mine artillery?
              Quote: 65-73
              Six 203mm guns per side, rate of fire around 2 rounds per minute (with Rosenberg lock). Isn't 12 rounds per minute per side enough for sighting in?

              In those years, it was premature to sight in with an 8-inch gun; the quartermasters wouldn't understand you; it was twice as expensive to sight in with shells:)))))
              But the problem lies elsewhere: two shots per minute is, after all, a utopia; it never worked in real life. While managing the sighting of multiple guns under the supervision of different officers is possible, it's premature; it's a very complex technology given the limitations of the Geisler gun of that era. Overall, there are too many stretches of the imagination to make the alternative realistic.
              1. 0
                2 June 2026 23: 11
                We won't touch the anti-mine artillery, otherwise it will turn out to be "there are no analogues"...
                But there is an interesting question with Geisler and the casemate commanders.
                And what did the sighting in on the Andrey Pervozvanny battleships look like then?
              2. 0
                3 June 2026 10: 15
                Why I remembered them is that they were laid down in 1903 with 8" turrets, therefore even before the Russian Revolution this was not critical.
                Subsequently, the project was radically adjusted, but this does not change the essence - even before the RYAV, the 8" sighting was absolutely realistic.
                1. +1
                  3 June 2026 10: 40
                  Quote: 65-73
                  Why did I remember them? They were laid down in 1903 with 8" towers,

                  Who? Bayans? Same with 6-inchers.
                  Quote: 65-73
                  Even before the RYAV, zeroing in at 8" was absolutely realistic.

                  If there are time travelers who will introduce new shooting methods - yes.
                2. +1
                  3 June 2026 17: 03
                  Quote: 65-73
                  Why did I remember them? They were laid down in 1903 with 8" towers,

                  But not in 1898?
                  1. +1
                    3 June 2026 22: 44
                    What fundamental differences were introduced in the management of naval artillery in the Russian Navy between 1898 and 1903?
                    For what organizational reasons is it impossible to fire 8" guns from turrets or separate casemates?
                    There don't seem to be any technical reasons - the rate of fire allows it, especially with several guns on board.
                    1. +4
                      4 June 2026 00: 12
                      Quote: 65-73
                      between 1898 and 1903

                      Between 1898 and 1903 there was a chasm in the RIF.
                      In 1898, there was practically no methodology. That is, at a distance greater than a point-blank shot, a hit was considered a miracle.
                      By 1903, Myakishev's method had already been developed. The respected author wrote about it using the Peresvet as an example. By the end of 1903, the range of target practice had reached 40 cables.
                      1. 0
                        4 June 2026 17: 53
                        If my memory serves me right, the new Artillery Shooting Rules of 1903 were not officially published at the time of the beginning of the Russian Yav.
                      2. +2
                        4 June 2026 17: 59
                        Myakishev's rules were not adopted at the level of the entire RIF, but they were issued and put into effect in the Pacific Ocean squadron.
                    2. +4
                      4 June 2026 11: 14
                      Quote: 65-73
                      What fundamental differences were introduced in the management of naval artillery in the Russian Navy between 1898 and 1903?

                      But isn't it possible to read the same author's recent articles about artillery management during these same periods?
                      1. 0
                        4 June 2026 17: 44
                        All articles have been read - the acceleration and rapid development of shooting techniques, sights and rangefinders after 1905 is obvious as a result of the defeat of the fleet in the Russian Navy.
                        Before the war, there was sluggish development.
                      2. 0
                        4 June 2026 18: 10
                        It does not follow from the article "On the organization of fire control of the squadron battleship Peresvet" that zeroing in with an 8"/45 was theoretically impossible, for example, on the Gromoboi.
    2. +5
      2 June 2026 09: 11
      Quote: uber
      Have you thought about posting articles on a sponsor?

      This way we could lose an interesting and competent author))))
      1. +3
        2 June 2026 09: 25
        The author needs to eat, especially since he himself wrote that he was looking for work. By reading for free, we risk losing him anyway.
        1. +4
          2 June 2026 10: 04
          Quote: uber
          By reading for free, we can lose it anyway.

          Thank you, but articles on VO are a paid service, so I can easily provide myself with a small income with my articles here.
    3. +2
      2 June 2026 09: 54
      Quote: uber
      The French's penchant for their "strange" calibers becomes more understandable. Apparently, with the necessary technological advances, they based their design on the available artillery and the desired number of barrels, tailoring the caliber to each project.

      There was nothing “strange” about the calibers of French naval artillery; the guns were divided into light and heavy medium-caliber artillery and armor-piercing large-caliber artillery.
    4. 0
      3 June 2026 19: 25
      Quote: uber
      Bayan, all these wouldn’t hurt 6 by 8 inches (2 in the turret and 4 in the casemates) and 12 by 120 mm + some small stuff for the boats.

      Technically feasible with the existing hull, but firstly, there were no 8-inch guns in reserve. By 1905, they seemed to have been manufactured just short of the required number of ships, even without spare guns. Most importantly, it took a powerful blow from the iron beak of a roast rooster to the command's afedron from unsuccessful battles and losses in the Sea of ​​Japan to even begin to stir and try to increase the gun power of the remaining ships in the Vladikavkaz, and even then, not immediately.
      Here, it was urgently necessary to purchase an American 178mm gun as a secondary caliber for the cruisers. And eight 178mm guns (four per side) would have been a good argument. Or at least replace all the 75mm guns amidships with eight six-inch guns.
      1. 0
        4 June 2026 08: 47
        I agree about "before the hen lays her egg clean." But if they could buy an American gun, they could have ordered their own 8-inch gun based on their own designs. The Americans were so well organized back then that they would have done it without any problem.
        I agree about the 178, but then a single caliber would be better, meaning 10 pieces. But!
        1. How much more effective will the 178 be against armor? Most likely, yes, since that trend was evident back then.
        2. The 6-inch increase is purely a palliative - the author writes that they were of little use.
        And all this is just a dream :)
        1. 0
          4 June 2026 09: 05
          Quote: uber
          The Americans' level of organization back then was such that they would have done everything without any problems.

          I disagree, this is greatly exaggerated.
          1. 0
            4 June 2026 09: 30
            Are there any examples of American failures during that time?
            1. 0
              4 June 2026 10: 07
              There is... The battleship "Ohio", as the most convincing... "Ohio", the last of her class, was finally commissioned in October 1904, forty months after the contract expired and almost five and a half years after she was laid down. drinks
              1. -2
                4 June 2026 10: 40
                Are you kidding me? Poltava took eight years to build.
                1. +1
                  4 June 2026 11: 47
                  What does "Poltava" have to do with this? We're talking about American super-shipbuilding, right? And I don't think we drank at Brüderschaft, so why are you pointing that out?
        2. +6
          4 June 2026 11: 22
          Quote: uber
          But if they could buy an American gun

          How can you buy something that they themselves didn’t have?
          The Americans developed the 8/45 in 1901 and put it into service in 1906. And their predecessors were frankly pathetic, even compared to ours.
          The same applies to 7" guns. Developed in 1900, adopted for service in 1906.
          And these guns never really caught on anywhere. Not two, not one and a half...
          1. +2
            4 June 2026 12: 35
            Why would anyone even think they'd sell it to anyone? It's not that simple.
        3. +1
          4 June 2026 14: 34
          ...then they could order their own 8-inch drive based on their own drawings.

          Why should the Americans order? They could have ordered from Obukhovsky, he has enough capacity for all calibers. There were no orders (in a timely manner!), that's how they save money... And as for the deadlines... the Americans also don't have new guns in stock, again, production time is required.
          1. 0
            5 June 2026 08: 46
            I have no idea, but one of the people I spoke to said they barely had enough manpower to do what they managed to do. :) If Obukhovsky had the capacity, then by God. I'm just dreaming about possible scenarios, not writing a cruiser construction schedule.
            1. 0
              5 June 2026 11: 38
              ...we barely had enough strength to do what we managed to do

              They ordered it late (like they didn't have the money yet), and when they needed to speed up the Borodino ships' entry into service, they also took the guns intended (and made) for Potemkin (12" and 6"). So...
              1. 0
                5 June 2026 12: 13
                Thanks for the information, everything is within the bounds of tradition, otherwise someone is convulsing.
            2. +3
              5 June 2026 19: 07
              Quote: uber
              If Obukhovsky had the capacity
          2. +4
            5 June 2026 19: 07
            Quote: anzar
            We could have ordered it from Obukhovskiy, he has enough power for all calibers
        4. 0
          9 June 2026 10: 52
          Yes, indeed. Only in real life, the guns were also removed to be mounted on land.
          1. +1
            9 June 2026 15: 00
            Well, what can you do? We fought as we prepared. But at least they built Dalny.
  5. +1
    2 June 2026 08: 47
    Then it would no longer be a Bayan, but a heavier cruiser, unless the 75mm guns were completely excluded and the 120mm guns were installed mainly in the open.

    That's what we're talking about: 75 overboard, and 120 above the casemates on the upper deck + 4 in the forward casemates on the battery deck.
    What kind of beast is this?

    https://sponsr.ru/sovet/
    The number of subscribers is 150 rubles less the portal's share. Tuzemny makes amazing documentaries. Even though he makes everything freely available, readers still pay him.
    1. +6
      2 June 2026 09: 09
      Well, readers have the opportunity to pay me here too; so far there has been only one inflow - and not for articles, but for "Verb":))))
      1. 0
        2 June 2026 09: 26
        I don't know what "Glagol" is, but I don't see any sponsorship here.
        1. +6
          2 June 2026 10: 00
          Quote: uber
          but I don't see any sponsorship here.

          At the bottom of the article, next to its rating, there's a ruble symbol. That's it. :))))
          Quote: uber
          I don't know what "verb" is.

          And this is an alternative historical opus - either a story or a novel, written by me.
          https://samlib.ru/k/kolobow_a_n/glagolnadbalticoy.shtml?ysclid=mpwad1f5ue667989255
          Many of those who are interested in this genre liked it.
      2. 0
        4 June 2026 12: 44
        The topic is yours of course, can I throw in an alternative one???
        1. 0
          4 June 2026 13: 16
          What alternative?:))))
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. 0
                4 June 2026 22: 55
                Since when do we count the history of Port Arthur?
                1. 0
                  4 June 2026 23: 04
                  1895 or 1898??? Where it was once raised???
                  1. 0
                    5 June 2026 14: 13
                    1895 - Triple Intervention... Russia. France and Germany "asked Japan to moderate its appetite a little regarding Port Arthur and the surrounding territories"
                    1898 - Russo-Chinese Convention, under which Russia leased Port Arthur and the surrounding territories... for 25 years...
                    1902 - Anglo-Japanese Alliance... Wasn't this so that no one would interfere in Russo-Japanese affairs???
                    1. 0
                      5 June 2026 15: 53
                      Andrey, I need an answer...
                    2. +2
                      5 June 2026 17: 12
                      And where is it convenient for you:))) As an old alternative supporter, I responsibly declare - the bifurcation point can be any, the main thing is the consequences.
                      First, understand what exactly you want to change, from here comes an understanding of how this can be done, and from here comes the time to intervene.
                      1. 0
                        6 June 2026 15: 05
                        December 30, 1903... Japan buys "Kasuga" and "Nissin"... January 15, Russia FICTIVELY "buys" "Montcalm", "Gueydon", "Dupleix" and "Marseillaise" from France... Will Japan start a war???
                      2. +2
                        6 June 2026 15: 42
                        Quote: Ragnar
                        Will Japan start a war???

                        Of course, they won't even know we bought anything there. And besides, I'm not sure four cruisers will stop them. And I don't understand why France would resort to such fictions.
                      3. 0
                        6 June 2026 22: 40
                        1. In 1895, France, together with Russia and Germany, had an interest in preventing Japan from reaching Liaodong (Triple Intervention)...
                        2. 1902 - Anglo-Japanese Alliance... Excludes France and Germany from this process as states...
                        3. Two Italians matter, but four Frenchmen don't???
                        4. We need to make it so that they find out... by accident...
                      4. +1
                        7 June 2026 10: 08
                        Quote: Ragnar
                        In 1895, France, together with Russia and Germany, had an interest in preventing Japan from reaching Liaodong (Triple Intervention)...

                        Not really. Essentially, the Europeans got what they wanted as a result of the Sino-Japanese war.
                        Quote: Ragnar
                        3. Two Italians matter, but four Frenchmen don't???

                        And what significance did the two Italians have?:)))
                        Did the Japanese know we were capable of forming a sufficiently powerful squadron in the Baltic? They knew. Did that stop them from starting a war? No. So I don't see how four Frenchmen would have helped here.
                        Quote: Ragnar
                        We need to make it so that they find out... by accident...

                        Yes, that's possible.
                      5. +1
                        7 June 2026 10: 30
                        Good morning.
                        I don't see how 4 Frenchmen would help here.

                        France would not have considered the offer to sell armored cruisers. The French government had barely managed to secure funding for the construction of larger-displacement battleships in 1899-1900. Furthermore, it must be understood that the military component of the Franco-Russian Alliance envisaged joint military operations against the Triple Alliance. The French would not have weakened their navy by selling armored cruisers. Russia's problems in the Far East were of little concern to France.
                      6. +1
                        7 June 2026 10: 31
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        France would not consider the offer to sell armored cruisers.

                        But we're not talking about a real sale here, but a fictitious one—that is, there's an ad for the sale, but the actual sale won't happen. But yes, I think it's hardly politically feasible; personally, I have a hard time seeing how this could fit into the alternative.
                      7. +2
                        7 June 2026 10: 45
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But we're not talking about a real sale here, but a fictitious one—that is, there's an ad for the sale, but the actual sale won't happen. But yes, I think it's hardly politically feasible; personally, I have a hard time seeing how this could fit into the alternative.

                        The meaning was clear, but a fictitious sale was out of the question. Negotiations between France and England over the colonies were in full swing, making an alternative scenario impossible.
                      8. +1
                        7 June 2026 10: 52
                        Well, I seriously doubt that after 10 years the Turks actually paid for Goeben...
                      9. +1
                        7 June 2026 11: 55
                        Quote: Ragnar
                        Well, I seriously doubt that after 10 years the Turks actually paid for Goeben...

                        What does "Goeben" have to do with it? It was a simple bribe for Turkey's entry into the war. And if Germany had won, it's not a given that he wouldn't have retreated back to his native Wilhelmshaven, or whatever it's called...
                      10. 0
                        7 June 2026 12: 17
                        But it was a fictitious purchase...
                      11. 0
                        7 June 2026 12: 20
                        Okay, I accept your arguments... Another option... We swap France for Germany... "Marseillaise," "Dupleix," "Gueydon," and "Montcalm" for "Prinz Adalbert," "Friedrich Carl," "Prinz Heinrich," and "Fürst Bismarck." Wilhelm seemed to be actively interested in Asian affairs...
                      12. +1
                        7 June 2026 12: 28
                        Alexey, a fictitious purchase is a very complicated thing.
                        Simply put, it will have to be announced—otherwise, it's of little use. Imagine the uproar the Reichstag and the admirals will cause, the uproar in the press. Your own people will accept the sale at face value! And if you start explaining to everyone that the deal is a sham, its sham will soon become an open secret.
                        So, if you want a realistic alternative, you'll have to dig into Germany's domestic politics and figure out how to make such a deal possible.
                      13. 0
                        7 June 2026 12: 32
                        The Borodino ships are late... This is a clumsy attempt to neutralize the superiority of the Japanese fleet...
                      14. +2
                        7 June 2026 15: 48
                        Quote: Ragnar
                        This is a clumsy attempt to neutralize the superiority of the Japanese fleet.

                        The only question is how to get the Germans to participate in all this...
                      15. 0
                        7 June 2026 16: 15
                        So what's the usual??? Just two allies, Army and Navy???
                      16. 0
                        7 June 2026 17: 05
                        Quote: Ragnar
                        Then as usual???

                        It's up to you :)))) Feel free to invent foreigners, it's just going to be very difficult. And I don't have any ready-made recipes.
    2. 0
      2 June 2026 10: 32
      Quote: uber
      Native makes amazing documentaries. Even though he makes everything freely available, readers still pay him.

      Because the documentaries are truly amazing drinks
  6. +3
    2 June 2026 09: 31
    Good afternoon.
    Dear Andrey, thank you for continuing.
    Ammunition was transported in arbours, three rounds in each, and the feed rate ensured a rate of fire of 4-5 rounds per minute. This, of course, was lower than the technical rate of fire of 6-inch guns, but, to be fair, neither our nor Japanese guns typically fired even 4-5 rounds per minute in combat. Still, I'm inclined to view this limitation as a drawback.

    The technical rate of fire of the 6-inch Canet gun, when firing point-blank, without adjusting the sights, is 8 rounds per minute. When firing at a moving target, it is 3,5 rounds per minute. Therefore, the rate of fire you mentioned is an improvement in the gun's rate of fire and cannot be considered a drawback.
    1. +3
      2 June 2026 10: 04
      Hello!
      Quote: 27091965i
      When shooting at a moving target, 3,5 shots per minute.

      Thank you, dear Igor, I didn’t know that!
  7. +1
    2 June 2026 10: 20
    The data are presented for shells without armor-piercing caps, since there were no such shells in the ammunition load of the armored cruiser Bayan before it entered service. японский the fleet was not listed.

    Please correct or clarify.
    1. +2
      2 June 2026 10: 45
      Quote: Not the fighter
      Please correct or clarify.

      The Bayan was heavily damaged and captured by the Japanese in Port Arthur, after which it was raised and commissioned into the Japanese Navy under the name Aso. It's quite possible that in the Japanese Navy, it received shells with armor-piercing caps; I don't know anything about this, but it's possible. However, while it was in our custody, such shells were definitely not part of its ammunition loadout.
      1. 0
        2 June 2026 12: 16
        Okay. But then another question: what kind of ammunition did the "Bayan" (aka "Aso") carry in the Japanese Navy?
        Russians? Where would the Japanese have gotten them from, unless they captured them in Port Arthur?
        Japanese? Do they fit? They have different weights and, I suspect, different geometry.
        1. +2
          2 June 2026 12: 20
          Quote: Not the fighter
          Japanese? Are they suitable?

          Who's going to stop them? It's the same caliber. We had no problem using both the short Dotsushima shell and the long Mod. 1911 case shell in the same 12-inch/40 caliber gun that fought the Japanese. The fact that 470,9 kg shells weren't adopted by our EBRs is a problem with their feed mechanisms, which weren't designed for shells of that length. But six-inch guns, with their manual loading, don't have that problem.
          1. +2
            2 June 2026 16: 24
            Uh... besides the caliber, i.e., the diameter of the hole in the muzzle, there's another nuance (like in that joke). The rifling depth, which determines the diameter of the leading band, and the rifling pitch, which is closely related to the characteristics (burn rate) of the propellant and the projectile's weight distribution. So, yeah... projectiles of the same caliber weren't always technically compatible with different guns.
            Regarding the 12" shells. Sorry for the OFF-color, but if I'm not mistaken, there were actually three types: pre-Tsushima, post-Tsushima, model 1907. They were the same weight but had significantly different chamber sizes and, therefore, would have behaved very differently on the trajectory, and then there were the famous "suitcase" shells of 11. Then came the lightweight model of 28, so that's four!
            The fact that this entire zoo flew normally from both 40 and 52 caliber guns can only be called an intellectual feat of Russian artillery designers!
            1. +1
              2 June 2026 17: 54
              Quote: Grossvater
              The depth of the rifling determines the diameter of the leading belt and the pitch of the rifling, which is closely related to the characteristics (burning rate) of the charge and the weight distribution of the projectile

              The point here is that the belt can be redone if necessary, and everything else - yes, it will require revision, of course, but no one is stopping you from changing the weight of the charge.
              Quote: Grossvater
              Regarding the 12" shells. Sorry for the OFFICIAL information, but if I'm not mistaken, they are

              You're not confusing anything:))))
              Quote: Grossvater
              The fact that this entire zoo flew normally from both 40 and 52 caliber guns can only be called an intellectual feat of Russian artillery designers!

              Well, no, it's just a normal continuity :))))
              1. +2
                2 June 2026 18: 29
                Uh, no. Not only that. The shell, the bastard, is stabilized by spin, and if the spin rate, mass, and center of gravity of the shell aren't properly adjusted, it could, for example, become over-stabilized and hit the target backwards at high elevation angles. And the range and accuracy of fire, when the shell doesn't follow its trajectory nose-first, but maintains the position it was in when fired, will be mediocre.
                1. +2
                  3 June 2026 06: 41
                  Quote: Grossvater
                  Uh, no. Not only that.

                  Alexey, I've read artillery textbooks. There were no problems with creating longer projectiles for existing guns, except for one unrelated issue: the feed mechanisms. This is the opinion of such a luminary of artillery science as Berkalov.
        2. +5
          2 June 2026 12: 21
          Quote: Not the fighter
          What kind of shells were used on the "Bayan" (aka "Aso") in the Japanese navy?

          After capturing Port Arthur, the Japanese began raising sunken ships. On August 7, the salvaged cruiser Bayan left the harbor for Japan. Initially, the former Russian ships were to be sold to China, but the deal fell through, and on August 22, 1905, the cruiser was incorporated into the Japanese fleet under the name Aso. From 1906 to 1908, she underwent refurbishment in Maizuru, receiving new Miyabara boilers[1] and Vickers guns[no source][2].

          In 1913, the cruiser's 8" turret mounts were removed and replaced with 6" deck guns with a barrel length of 50 calibers.
    2. +5
      2 June 2026 10: 45
      Quote: Not the fighter
      "Bayan" was not listed in the Japanese fleet before it joined the fleet.

      After the fall of Port Arthur, the Japanese raised the Bayan and incorporated it into their fleet under the name Aso.
  8. +6
    2 June 2026 10: 35
    The turrets of the armored cruiser Bayan were French and, it should be noted, of a completely modern design.

    Well, how can I say, at that time the Franks could have done better.
    With inclined slabs, etc.
  9. +6
    2 June 2026 10: 52
    The firing sectors of both turrets... were 270 degrees. The turrets were traversed horizontally by electric motors, while the traverse 27 degree. took 59 seconds.

    Probably the zero was lost), the turn is not 27 but 270 degrees.
    The turrets of the armored cruiser Bayan were French and, it should be noted, of a completely modern design.

    It may be modern, but the Franks had different designs. They had all their components in a conical under-turret barbette, with feed along the axis of rotation... to minimize the feed tube diameter and its armor. The Bayan has a large feed tube diameter (armor), a cable feed between it and the barrel, and a downward rotation unit (the barrel tube needs to be more torsionally robust)... everything like large-caliber turrets, hence the weight...
    ...many sources indicate heavier, 113,4 kg projectiles

    For "heavy" ones, they give a muzzle velocity of 756 m/s (32 MJ), but in your table, the number is missing again (/760, not /60). I don't know anything about "light" ones.
    But the analysis is good and Bayan looks good... if its displacement and price were a little less wink
  10. +3
    2 June 2026 11: 06
    Rate of fire is certainly an important factor, but accuracy is even more important. Like in Tsushima 2,3 TOE, you can fire thousands of shells and still achieve a very low hit rate.
    As the counterintelligence officer said in the TV series "Moosund", 2-3 hits out of 100 shots are considered an excellent result.
    1. +3
      2 June 2026 11: 21
      Quote: dragon772
      Rate of fire is certainly an important factor, but accuracy is even more important.

      Of course, but accuracy depends on the gunner's ability to aim correctly, and the rate of fire depends on the capabilities of the equipment. Both ours and the Japanese aim at roughly the same time; some just hit the target and others don't.
      1. 0
        3 June 2026 16: 47
        Taking aim, I use the appropriate devices, where the main factor is knowing the exact distance to the enemy ship. And the enemy ship is actively maneuvering, making it very difficult to hit.
    2. +2
      2 June 2026 11: 30
      Theoretically, the 8-inch guns, mounted individually in the Bayan's turrets, gave it superior target-hitting accuracy compared to the Japanese's two gun mounts, but...
      In terms of instrumentation (rangefinders, etc.), organizational (manuals, rules) and practical (number of explosives in a shell), we were inferior to the enemy.
      However, Bayan served its intended purposes and objectives for the most part. It's a shame that the First Pacific Squadron's leadership failed to preserve Varyag and Boyarin at the beginning of the conflict.
      In another reality, the relatively new and fast Bayan could have broken through Japanese communications, caused a stir, and escaped to Vladivostok.
      hi
      1. +5
        2 June 2026 14: 50
        And in our reality, the real "Bayan," like everyone else, could have "made a splash and gone to Vladivostok"... But the "accordionists" turned out to be lousy, just like the rest of the Russian "orchestra"... Sadly, but true. It's not for nothing that they say, "It's people who fight, not ships."
      2. +1
        8 June 2026 12: 29
        With its cruising range?))) What's all that noise?))) Considering that it was necessary to have an emergency supply of coal in case of battle. "Chitose" and "Takasago" - 22,5 knots, 2 x 203 mm, 10 x 120 mm.
  11. +7
    2 June 2026 11: 15
    Greetings everyone. I read your articles with great pleasure. Thank you so much for them! I'll add my two cents. In the first battle at Port Arthur, the "dogs" fired 37x203mm, 14x152mm, and 132x120mm shells.
    1. +2
      2 June 2026 11: 21
      Thank you very much, Vladimir!
      Thanks for both the rating and the information, I'll keep that in mind :)
    2. +1
      30 June 2026 15: 05
      Vladimir, good afternoon again! Could you tell me where you got this information about dogs?
  12. +3
    2 June 2026 11: 37
    I read the article and a thought occurred to me: if Bayan is so good, then why was there little more than zero use from it during the RYaV?
    1. +3
      2 June 2026 11: 55
      Quote: TermNachTER
      and a thought came to me

      You flatter yourself.
      1. -1
        2 June 2026 13: 29
        No, I'm trying to do your job for you. To draw at least some conclusion from the jumbled details. Otherwise, you'll end up with an article for the sake of an article, a compilation of long-known facts.
        1. +1
          2 June 2026 13: 55
          Quote: TermNachTER
          No, I'm trying to do your job for you.

          Good luck :))) laughing
          1. -2
            2 June 2026 16: 59
            How much longer can you fruitfully ramble on and on? This whole repost has been covered in tons of books and exhaustively discussed on specialized forums. What's the point of your articles? Shouldn't you fill VO with at least some content, because there's nothing new or interesting here?
            1. +3
              2 June 2026 17: 56
              Quote: TermNachTER
              And how much longer can one fruitfully pour from empty air?

              Please provide a link to an article that covers the Bayan's single-gun turrets as well as I have. Not the 100500th line on the forum that only a half a dozen people have read, but an article from a more or less widely visited resource.
              Nikolai, don't try to sound smart—it's just not working for you. Just recently, you were blatantly telling me how under-armed Bayan was.
              1. -2
                2 June 2026 21: 27
                So, specialized forums are where knowledgeable people gather, people who can see through bullshit right away. And here, you're playing smart. On the Tsushima forums, they talked about Bayan's turrets, and unfortunately for you, they talked badly. They're not as good as you're making them out to be. The whole ship isn't either, and don't attribute someone else's nonsense to me. I said Bayan was a complete and utter piece of crap, which they even managed to spread around.
                1. -4
                  2 June 2026 22: 23
                  P.S. There's a detailed description on the website)))
                2. +2
                  2 June 2026 22: 44
                  So, you've been telling us fairy tales about my articles being derivative. Great, but when I asked you to find a similar article, you immediately ran away. You didn't find one. Well, I'm not surprised.
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  This is how specialized forums gather people who understand and can see through bullshit right away.

                  Very good.
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  On the Tsushima forums, they talked about Bayan's towers and, unfortunately for you, they talked badly.

                  So, go on a road trip to see the off-roading and sloppiness, and refute what I wrote. It's easy, you read the forum, right?
                  Come on, act smart.
                  1. -3
                    3 June 2026 11: 14
                    There's an article with drawings, you run into the bushes as soon as they rub your nose in it.
                    1. +1
                      3 June 2026 11: 39
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      You run into the bushes as soon as someone pokes you in the nose.

                      A voice came from the bushes.
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      There is an article with drawings.

                      I'm telling you – give it here! :)))) I'm used to and understand your inability to retell your arguments in your own words, but can you provide a link to it? Or is that too much for the "titan of thought and father of Russian democracy"?
                      1. -4
                        4 June 2026 13: 36
                        Why don't you go to the website and read it yourself?))) Isn't that a royal thing?)) Especially since it looks like it was stolen from there.))) Not everything, though. I only posted the drawings so I had something to think about and look for. Although, when are you supposed to look for them? You're doing transfusions, aren't you?)))
                      2. +4
                        4 June 2026 13: 49
                        Dear Nikolay, you are a very funny person:))))
                        First, you claim my work is derivative and that I'm not writing anything new. When I take you at your word and offer to show you an article that covers the topic of Bayan's artillery the way I do, you...
                        You immediately fall into a trap and cannot find such an article.
                        Then you abruptly change your testimony, and you no longer declare that my articles were compiled from somewhere, but that they are false, and that
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        On the Tsushima forums, they talked about Bayan's towers, and unfortunately for you, they spoke poorly. They're not as good as you're making them out to be.

                        Okay, fine. I'm not even pointing out that you've already screwed up this discussion. I suggest you confirm your words a second time—and provide a link to this article. And what do I hear?
                        That you are falling into the same trap again and again cannot confirm your version with an appropriate link.
                        And then you start bubbling from this puddle, like what I write in the article
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        it was pulled from there

                        So, you first claim that the article you found REFUTES my article, and then that I copy-pasted it from there:)))))))
                        That is, you contradict yourself.
                        Nikolai, spring may be over, but your flare-up clearly isn't. Contact your doctor before it's too late. laughing
                      3. -2
                        4 June 2026 16: 46
                        Well, since you spent so much effort writing nonsense))) I didn’t even read it, here’s a section dedicated to the towers of “Bayan” on one of the websites.
                        The rotating section consisted of a fighting compartment and a cylindrical feed tube. The fighting compartment, which housed the gun, its mount, and the personnel servicing it, had a characteristic ovoid plan. Its core was a worktable made of two longitudinal beams, connected by several radial and transverse beams. To the left of the gun, on the transverse axis of the mount's rotation, there was a hatch in the floor.
                        for feeding ammunition. The turret commander's station was located in front of it. The turret gunner (aiming in both planes) was located to the right of the gun. The turret commander's field of view and the gunner's sighting line rose above the turret roof. Thus, when aiming the gun, as with all turret mounts of the time, the heads of the commander and gunner had to rise above the turret roof, so they were protected by caps of cast armor steel (spherical and elliptical, respectively). The vertical armor protection of the fighting compartment consisted of four surface-hardened plates 150 mm thick, with a significant curvature. The manufacture of all 8 plates for two
                        turrets were subcontracted to the Saint-Chamond company; however, they failed the artillery tests upon acceptance and all were subject to replacement. The reworking of the entire batch (subcontractors Marelle Friere - bow mount, Chatillon et Commentrie - stern) delayed the cruiser's readiness by 8 (!) months, so that in mid-1901 the question of transferring the cruiser to Russia without turret armor was even raised. The turret table rotated on a ring race on 28 conical rollers and continued down to the 2nd platform with a narrow (800 mm) cylindrical feed pipe,
                        The turret had a 45-caliber, 8" turret gun, developed in 1892 at the Obukhov Plant (OSZ) by Captain A.F. Brink. It was equipped with a piston breechblock of the OSZ design (designed by N. Rosenberg) and was mounted on a lathe of the Metal Plant system.
                        The ramming was done manually, with a wooden ram, by two people. The shells and charges were stored in the cellars on the 2nd platform,
                        from where the hoists, by means of a snorkel, were fed along an overhead track through a loading hole in the bulkhead of the cellar into the under-turret compartment to
                        The magazines were lined with wood (teak) on the inside. This solution proved unsuccessful, as sweat accumulated under the lining, requiring constant disassembly and reassembly of the plank flooring to remove it. The rotating portion of the turrets and the fixed armor of the barbette were 150 mm thick (at the bow turret, the section of the feed pipe between the middle and lower decks, covered on the sides by 60 mm of armor, was 150 mm thick).
                        decreased to 60 mm), the roof of the towers was 30 mm.
                      4. -4
                        4 June 2026 16: 47
                        P.S. And leave your pathetic humor for those whose IQ is below the baseboard.
                      5. +3
                        4 June 2026 16: 50
                        Where's the analysis of the rate of fire of 8-inch guns, as you stated the first time? And where's the refutation of my article, as you stated in the second?
                        This is the third time you're in a puddle.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I didn't even read it

                        Of course we read it:))))))
                      6. -3
                        4 June 2026 17: 00
                        You can't just "play dumb" like that))) Where and when did I ever mention the 8-inch cannon's rate of fire? Will you ever learn to read, or does writing just take up all your time?))) You wrote that your little note about the Bayan turrets was the best and most complete. There you have it, smart people, more and more accurate.
                        And don't flatter yourself, I stopped reading your comments a long time ago.
                        Why should I read scientific nonsense?
                      7. +3
                        4 June 2026 17: 28
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Well, you can't just "play dumb" like that))) where and when did I talk about the rate of fire of the 8-inch?

                        Now you also have multiple sclerosis? :)))) It's easy for me to remind you. You wrote about it here:
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        How much longer can you fruitfully ramble on and on? This whole repost has been covered in tons of books and exhaustively discussed on specialized forums. What's the point of your articles? Shouldn't you fill VO with at least some content, because there's nothing new or interesting here?

                        My main point of the article is precisely the combat rate of fire of the Bayan gun, and you called it "empty and empty", "sucked up many times"
                        "it was pulled from there" and so on and so forth.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        You wrote that your note about the Bayan towers is the best and most complete.

                        You're lying. I never wrote anything like that. However, you can, of course, refute me by quoting where I wrote it. laughing
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And don't flatter yourself, I stopped reading your comments a long time ago.

                        Yeah. What did the respected Ivan say?
                        And of course, you don't have to read my comments. Other people will, and they'll find you really funny.
                      8. -3
                        4 June 2026 18: 27
                        Does your article make sense?))) I didn't notice anything. It's just fruitless rambling. And when they start poking you in the face, it's "playing the fool"))) Excellent method, keep it up—they love it here)))
                      9. +1
                        4 June 2026 20: 09
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Does your article make sense?))) I didn't notice something.

                        That's normal:)))) I've written to you many times – read sources you can understand. Like, preschool books, comics:)))))
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And when they start poking their noses in

                        Readers have already decided who stole whom here:))))
                      10. -4
                        5 June 2026 12: 50
                        Who judged?))) Five full-time downvoters of VO? They're not readers – they're on the payroll, just like you.)))
        2. +6
          3 June 2026 07: 42
          Quote: TermNachTER
          Otherwise, you end up with an article for the sake of an article, a compilation of long-known facts.

          No wonder I can't kick you out of here with a stake)))
          1. -7
            3 June 2026 11: 15
            I come here two or three times a day, mostly to laugh at the smart guys)))
          2. -3
            4 June 2026 16: 49
            Read what smart people wrote above, not the VO staff clown. If I don't have fun here, how will people know when their "kettle is whistling"?
            1. -4
              4 June 2026 16: 54
              P.S. I noticed something interesting: as soon as the staff writers at VO start getting their work slammed in the face, the notifications immediately go off. And there are no messages indicating that I've been commented on here. Should I salvage my tarnished reputation at all costs?
            2. -4
              4 June 2026 17: 01
              Oops, there are already minuses, I'm laughing so hard))) Andryusha is not sleeping)))
              1. -5
                4 June 2026 18: 28
                The disadvantages are growing exponentially))) DON'T STOP)))
    2. +3
      2 June 2026 12: 01
      Well, one could argue that the entire 1st Pacific Fleet was useless. Except for the minelayer Amur and the destroyer Reshitelny, which rammed a Japanese destroyer in the Battle of Tsushima. There's a nuance, though.
      1. +6
        2 June 2026 13: 03
        "Resolute" was already called Akatsuki in the Battle of Tsushima, and is already ramming its own ships. Are you talking about this nuance?
        1. +5
          2 June 2026 13: 19
          Quote: Vagabung
          Are you talking about this nuance?

          I'm sure yes:)))))
        2. 0
          2 June 2026 13: 31
          Sabotage - definitely, shoot everyone on the forecastle - with slingshots)))
        3. +3
          2 June 2026 13: 55
          That's it, he drank the blood of the new owners.
      2. -3
        2 June 2026 13: 30
        How did the Russian Revolutionary War end? And what role did the 1st TEO play in it? You've forgotten about the VOK.
        1. +7
          2 June 2026 13: 59
          "And what role did the 1st TOE play in it?"
          Well, at least so much so that Noge, at Togo's request, was forced to storm Port Arthur, regardless of losses. And their army at Port Arthur wasn't small. Had they fought against Kuropatkin, the results for us would have been even more disastrous.
          1. 0
            2 June 2026 17: 04
            The Army and Navy in Japan aren't just separate entities, they're separate states. Noga would have politely defecated on Togo's orders, then sent him on an erotic walking tour. If they hadn't built Dalniy and other such nonsense, Noga would have stood by Arthur until the end of the war.
    3. +1
      3 June 2026 01: 19
      Quote: TermNachTER
      I read the article and the thought occurred to me - if Bayan is so good,

      Because in reality neither the Bayan nor, especially, its artillery were that good.

      The Kassuga and its 10" turret were good, constantly demonstrating a very high percentage of hits.
      1. 0
        3 June 2026 11: 17
        You're speaking apolitically, Alexander, apolitically))) you're going against the party line))) they don't like that here - you've already received the downvotes)))
      2. +1
        3 June 2026 15: 19
        The tower hits, and the percentage is high???
        1. +3
          3 June 2026 17: 06
          Quote: Ragnar
          The tower hits, and the percentage is high???

          Absolute record in Women's Championship.
        2. -1
          10 June 2026 15: 18
          Did you think the turret's aiming systems weren't important for firing accuracy? It was the most advanced turret of the Russo-Japanese War, as evidenced by the high hit rate of its 10" gun. Incidentally, the gun had a heavy 31-ton barrel. By comparison, the barrels of 10"/45 guns weighed 22,5-27,6 tons and were only usable in their heaviest configuration.

          You are aware that the maximum elevation angle of the gun in this turret was 35 degrees, making it the longest-range naval gun of the Russo-Japanese War?

          The maximum technical rate of fire for the gun in this turret was 1,5 rounds per minute (in actual battles during the Russo-Japanese War, of course, it was lower; the Japanese were hesitant to fire their main battery turrets for fear of shell explosions in the barrels overheated by intense fire). Due to the steep slope of most of the frontal plate, the turret, despite its relatively modest armor thickness, was invulnerable to frontal fire even with 12-inch shells during the Russo-Japanese War.
      3. +3
        3 June 2026 15: 48
        Quote: AlexanderA
        The Kassuga and its 10" turret were good.

        Note, it's a single-gun :))))
        But in general, there is an assumption that the percentage of hits is greatly inflated, because the hit rate of a 10-inch bullet is very similar to that of a 12-inch bullet.
  13. +6
    2 June 2026 11: 59
    I FOUND A MISTAKE IN MY CALCULATIONS OF THE ARMOR PENETRATION OF 6-inch Japanese guns.I thought they were so weak. I'll recalculate them in the next article, but they don't affect the results of this one in any way.
    1. +4
      2 June 2026 12: 21
      That's why I thought they were so weak.

      And they are weak)) - 701 m/s muzzle velocity for Elswick 6"/40 (given by NW). 762 m/s in your table is for British Mark VII and VIII 6"/45 (after Duncan and Crecy)
      1. +5
        2 June 2026 13: 18
        It's all quite complicated here. I didn't think finding the performance characteristics of Japanese 6-inch guns would be such a challenge. The data from Navveps, by the way, doesn't inspire confidence—the shells have a very strange shape coefficient.
        1. +2
          2 June 2026 15: 26
          The projectiles have a very strange shape factor

          Why? At 20 degrees, the range for 701 m/s is 50 kb. With the 6"45 (Mark 7-8), at the same angle (20 degrees), a projectile of the same weight (and shape?) flies 73 kb. (Already in WWI, a light charge)
          1. +4
            2 June 2026 15: 41
            Quote: anzar
            Why? At 20 degrees for 701 m/s the range is 50 cables.

            This is very little - the coefficient is 1,28, which is very bad for those times; in that period, it tended to one and a little less for shells.
            1. +1
              2 June 2026 16: 02
              ...the coefficient is 1,28

              I'm a no-no on this one. Is it the same for 770 m/s and 73 cables? Well, they're stupid, they're stupid.
  14. +5
    2 June 2026 13: 27
    Based on the data the author presented in this article, the most rational arrangement for armored cruisers at the turn of the 20th century would have been a diamond-shaped arrangement of 8-inch guns in single turrets, as favored by the French at the time. It offers a higher rate of fire and ease of maintenance, and three 8-inch guns can be concentrated in virtually any firing arc.
    1. +4
      2 June 2026 14: 16
      Oddly enough, it looks like you are right, but there is a nuance here that I want to touch on much later, in the final articles.
      1. +3
        2 June 2026 14: 27
        We will wait with great interest.
    2. 0
      2 June 2026 15: 48
      ...a diamond-shaped arrangement of 8-inch guns in single turrets, as the French were once very fond of

      And they're not the only ones. Here are the Swedes in 1903-08. We swap the 2x6" turrets for 1x8" and get this... 4800t VI, 22,6 knots. belay
      1. +1
        2 June 2026 17: 22
        Quote: anzar
        We change the 2x6" towers to 1x8" and get this... 4800t

        Which, due to the unstable platform, will never get anywhere?
        1. 0
          2 June 2026 18: 19
          Which, due to the unstable platform...

          "the stability of the art. platform" depends not from the caliber of the guns, and from the vessel - its size (smaller vessels rock/sway more), the shape of the hull and metacentric heightSo, the British (that's their term)—almost identical ships (subjectively)—were defined differently. A low metacentric is good for artillery (low righting moment, slow, smooth rolling), BUT bad for combat stability (in the event of damage, listing, and trim). A compromise is chosen: in the event of damage, counter-flooding and simply adding ballast in the inter-bottom space to a certain amount improves it.
          So if the six-inchers (somehow) fit, then the 8" ones even more so))
          1. 0
            2 June 2026 18: 56
            P.S. Editing time expired((
            In a sense, you're right. On the same ship, larger guns will fire even more accurately, but on different ships this won't be the case; a larger ship is usually a more stable platform. Because of this, it's often considered that a certain caliber is too large for a "small" ship, preventing it from realizing its full potential. But this applies more to the tactical role and typical targets, since there will be fewer large guns. For example, 1-ton gunboats had a single 9" gun, while monitors in WWI had much larger calibers...
    3. 0
      3 June 2026 01: 52
      Armored cruisers came in all shapes and sizes back then. There were ocean-going raiders, "trade destroyers" (Russian, French), and, conversely, counter-raiders, "trade protectors" (British). And there were those for limited theaters of war and "squadron ships," which could easily be placed alongside squadron ships. These were the very types Japan acquired from Great Britain, France, Germany, and Italy before the Russo-Japanese War. And then there were "squadron luxury ships." Like the Bayan. They seemed armored, but with weak artillery and often bizarre armor. The French painstakingly built such monstrosities (cruisers of the Amiral Charnet, Potuault, and Dupleix classes). And here's our Bayan. Its tactical niche: a victorious battle with an armored deck ship, if you can catch that armored deck ship.

      And they all had different requirements for artillery. For raiders and counter-raiders, good fire on retreating and, accordingly, pursuing courses. For "squadron-attached" ships, a good broadside. For "squadron-attached luxury," whatever came into the heads of those who came up with this tactical niche.
      1. +3
        3 June 2026 09: 05
        Quote: AlexanderA
        Like the "Bayan." They were armored, but their guns were weak and their armor was often bizarre. The French painstakingly built such monstrosities (cruisers of the "Amiral Charnet," "Potuot," and "Dupleix" classes).

        You don't understand the tactical principles of the French navy. These cruisers were never intended to be deployed in a line. In a squadron battle, they were supposed to operate in a detachment, attacking the enemy from the bow or stern. Therefore, the likelihood of coming under concentrated fire from battleships was low.
        1. -3
          4 June 2026 13: 46
          What relation do the tactical principles of the French Navy have to the RIF?
          1. +2
            4 June 2026 14: 44
            Quote: TermNachTER
            What relation do the tactical principles of the French Navy have to the RIF?



            Following the Franco-Russian Alliance, officers of the Russian Army and Navy were given the opportunity not only to visit military factories and shipyards but also to study technological processes and order weapons and ammunition. They were also permitted to participate in naval exercises and become familiar with tactical developments. Preliminary tactical concepts for the "croiseurs éclaireurs" were formulated in 1896–1897. One of the proposed designs was an armored cruiser with a displacement of 6000–6500 tons, capable of speeds of 21–22 knots. Its full coal capacity was 1100–1200 tons. The armor belt along the entire length of the hull was 100–120 mm thick, and the casemates were 60–80 mm thick. The armament included two 194 mm guns, six 164,7 mm guns, or six 138,6 mm guns.
            1. -1
              4 June 2026 18: 32
              France had vastly different financial and technological capabilities than Russia. The Bayan was built according to very obscure specifications, but it was still built in Russia. Although, as I've already said, the purpose of this ship is unclear. Well, except that Abaza wanted to please Grand Duke Alexei Alexandrovich.
              1. +3
                4 June 2026 19: 25
                Quote: TermNachTER
                France had completely different financial and technological capabilities than Russia.

                The armored cruiser Bayan was designed and built in France, so the key issue was simply securing funding for the project.
                The Bayan was built according to very obscure specifications, but it was still built in Russia. Although, as I've already said, the purpose of this ship is unclear.

                A 3000-ton cruiser was unsuitable for long-range reconnaissance missions. To effectively counter enemy cruisers, an armored belt would have been necessary, but this would inevitably have reduced speed or range, which is unacceptable for a reconnaissance vessel.
                In adverse weather conditions, cruisers of this displacement struggle to reach their maximum speed, and this also requires a significant increase in coal consumption. To address these shortcomings, it was necessary to increase the displacement. The French conducted weight distribution calculations and concluded that a cruiser with a displacement of 6000–6500 tons would be optimal.
                1. -1
                  5 June 2026 12: 44
                  I don't know what the Bayan was built for; I repeat, I don't understand the purpose of this ship. Well, the armored deck cruisers of the first rank—the Bogatyr and Askold—were supposed to be used as long-range reconnaissance ships. So, the Bayan is neither here nor there.
              2. +1
                4 June 2026 20: 14
                This is supposedly prohibited in the Russian Federation, and it’s even considered propaganda, right???
                1. 0
                  5 June 2026 12: 52
                  Sorry, I don't get your point. What propaganda are you talking about?
              3. 0
                5 June 2026 13: 23
                Quote: TermNachTER
                Well, besides the fact that Abaza wanted to please Grand Duke Alexei Alexandrovich)))
                1. 0
                  5 June 2026 13: 24
                  No offense... It's just a joke...
                  1. 0
                    5 June 2026 16: 57
                    No offense, it's just that there are a lot of comments, and it's not always clear what relates to what.
        2. -1
          10 June 2026 14: 14
          Quote: 27091965i
          You don't understand the tactical principles of the French Navy.

          This thesis of yours in relation to me is wrong and not substantiated in any way.
          In a squadron battle, they were to operate as part of a detachment, attacking the enemy from the bow or stern.

          When the French held the keel-laying ceremony in 1888 for their revolutionary "Dupuy de Lôme," a fully armored ship later considered as the basis for the "Bayan," they weren't thinking about its use in a squadron battle. They were envisioning a "raider" or "trade destroyer" with increased combat stability and relatively limited endurance for use in waters adjacent to the British homeland, which were, by definition, "swarming" with British "trade protector" cruisers.

          You have attributed to the French of that time ideas that were anachronistic for them.
          1. +2
            10 June 2026 14: 20
            Quote: AlexanderA
            the French did not think about using it in a squadron battle

            They thought so because they believed that a cruiser of this concept would be able to sink battleships.
            1. 0
              10 June 2026 20: 10
              Please provide a link to a source stating that when designing the Dupuy de Lôme, the French believed that this armored cruiser, revolutionary for the late 1880s with a fully armored side, would be able to sink battleships in a squadron battle.
              1. 0
                10 June 2026 20: 51
                Quote: AlexanderA
                Please provide a link to the source

                I only have Russian-language versions. "Armored cruiser Dupuy-de-Lome" by D.B. Yakimovich, A.S. Aleksandrov.
                1. 0
                  11 June 2026 18: 17
                  Well:

                  "The ship does perform well at sea, but her slow and considerable roll suggests that she needs to be handled with care in rough weather.
                  From a combat standpoint, it's important to consider that such pitching and rolling in the open sea complicates the aiming of turret guns. Therefore, it would be a grave mistake to assume that ships of this type can compete with battleships, which are sufficiently stable as gun platforms.
                  Vice-Admiral Alquier, report of September 11, 1895, p. 26

                  "It has already been noted that the appearance of the Dupuy-de-Lôme caused a storm of excitement and led some seemingly sensible and respected admirals to believe that they were getting their hands on a type of universal ship, suitable for a wide range of missions, from reconnaissance to combat with ironclads. The cruiser's novelty and impressive appearance, along with its original armor scheme and armament of rapid-fire cannons, played a cruel joke on it. While the Dupuy-de-Lôme was perfectly capable of purely cruising tasks, the idea of ​​engaging in squadron combat would hardly have inspired any of the sailors aboard the cruiser.
                  And if against the most likely opponents in the fleets at the time of the laying of the keel of the Dupuy-de-Lome itself, "ships with armored places" or "armored deck battleships", he, relying on his rapid-fire artillery, maneuverability and a considerable amount of luck, could still count on a positive outcome of the battle, then the battle with the first of White's "standard battleships" would have ended, in the most optimistic scenario, with the cruiser's escape.
                  However, it's unlikely that the inability to engage battleships of twice its displacement can be attributed to a design flaw. The ship simply wasn't designed for this initially. The cruisers of the "Foggy Albion" were considered the Dupuy-de-Lome's primary adversaries.And although the British fleet traditionally had no shortage of them, in the early 90s it did not have any ships of this class with advanced side armor..."
                  Pp. 47

                  If we're discussing the loss of common sense by some admirals who were considered sensible and respected, then why bother going to France? We had our own Stepan Osipovich Makarov, who persistently promoted the idea of ​​an "armorless ship."

                  But Vice-Admiral Alquier, in 1895, was a completely sensible professional.
                  1. +2
                    11 June 2026 18: 26
                    Quote: AlexanderA
                    But Vice-Admiral Alquier, in 1895, was a completely sensible professional.

                    Alexandra, you probably don't know, but the missions a ship is built for are determined before it's laid down, not after it's commissioned. And before the cruiser's keel was laid, it was indeed believed that it would be able to destroy battleships contemporary to the time. Yes, they were wrong, but that was the idea.
                    1. -3
                      13 June 2026 12: 51
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      ...the ship's intended missions are determined before its keel is laid, not after its commissioning. And before the cruiser's keel was laid, it was indeed believed that it would be capable of destroying battleships contemporary to the time.

                      Whose opinion was this? Name, surname, title? The opinion of some crazed French admiral? Or perhaps it was the opinion of unknown, enthusiastic journalists churning out tabloid articles?

                      You cited the source D. B. Yakimovich A. S. Aleksandrov "Armored cruiser Dupuy-de-Lom", which, in your opinion, supports your thesis: "They thought that a cruiser of this concept would be able to sink battleships.".

                      I read this source. Therefore, I took the trouble to quote it, along with the opinions of the authors, D.B. Yakimovich and A.S. Alexandrov:

                      "It is unlikely, however, that the inability to engage battleships of twice the displacement can be attributed to the failure of the project. The ship was simply not designed for this initially.The cruisers of the "Foggy Albion" were considered as the main opponents of the "Dupuy-de-Lome"

                      You will provide a quote from the source you referred to, which would say that "Dupuy-de-Lom" "was originally planned" when designed to sink battleships?

                      P.S. It's amazing what different conclusions you can come to when reading the same books. I think I'm increasingly understanding the basis for your views on the technology and tactics of naval warfare during the Russo-Japanese War.

                      As I've already noted, I once spoke with the esteemed Mikhail Nikolaevich Svirin, one of whose life positions was that we cannot judge our ancestors for their mistakes. Particularly because we didn't live in those times.

                      I have a different approach - what is most important are the mistakes made in the past, which in no case should be belittled, hushed up, or justified by supposedly existing objective circumstances.

                      Because we learn from mistakes. And the best way to learn is from the mistakes of others. Therefore, if mistakes were ever made due to the fault of certain individuals, there's no point in burying your head in the sand with the excuse: "Speak well of the dead, or nothing but the truth." This is especially true because the original phrase was: "Speak well of the dead, or nothing but the truth," and then, for one reason or another, it was changed.

                      I'm certainly not writing about the amateurish mistakes of amateurs. I'm talking about the mistakes of professionals, who are always held accountable for their lack of professionalism and excessively economical thinking in their professional work.

                      After all, we're talking about war. In wars, the one who makes the fewest mistakes wins.

                      You, as I have already noted earlier, while popularizing historical knowledge, in my opinion, are trying to belittle, retouch, and even aestheticize the mistakes (“A beautiful mistake...” (C)) of the past.

                      I can only guess why. Perhaps because you're an idealist at heart, and your soul desires to embellish and idealize our past.

                      But popularization of history is an activity of dissemination in society reliable and scientifically based historical knowledge, without idealizing historical facts and belittling mistakes made in the past.
                      1. +2
                        13 June 2026 14: 12
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Will you provide a quote from the source you cited that says that the Dupuy-de-Lom was "originally designed" to sink battleships?

                        You read the source. And you know what I read. So why ask your question if you know it will deflect your assertions?
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        I have a different approach - what is most important are the mistakes made in the past, which in no case should be belittled, hushed up, or justified by supposedly existing objective circumstances.

                        And if there was no mistake, then you have to invent one for your ancestors. Or declare something to be a mistake that isn't actually a mistake.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Whose opinion was this? Name, surname, title? The opinion of some crazed French admiral? Or perhaps it was the opinion of unknown, enthusiastic journalists churning out tabloid articles?

                        You know, I'm simply tired of your stream of lies. You lie and lie and lie. You lie constantly and verifiably, but with great aplomb and lengthy reasoning.
                        You say you read the source. Good. Then you can't possibly know what Rear Admiral Alquier wrote in his report on the results of the maneuvers with the Dupuy de Lôme:
                        "...Because of this, it would be a great mistake to think that ships of this type can measure their strength against battleships..."

                        So, in his official report, the rear admiral refutes... "unknown, enthusiastic journalists"? What nonsense is this?
                        Words
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        However, it's unlikely that the inability to engage battleships of twice its displacement can be attributed to a design flaw. The ship simply wasn't designed for this initially. The cruisers of the "Foggy Albion" were considered the Dupuy-de-Lome's primary adversaries.

                        You took it out of context, since this is the authors' own conclusion in the afterword. And in that same afterword, they write
                        "It has already been noted that the appearance of "Dupuy-de-Lome" caused a storm of delight and led some seemingly quite sensible and respected admirals to the idea that they were getting their hands on a type of universal ship, suitable for performing a wide range of tasks from reconnaissance to combat with battleships."

                        So, essentially, I have only one question left for you. What are you lying about this time? Are you lying about reading the source (while in reality, you simply quickly ripped out a phrase to suit your needs, without actually reading the source itself), or are you deliberately misrepresenting the source's authors and basing their verdict on Dupuy-de-Lôme's ability to fight ironclads on the ideas of French admirals at the time of its creation?
                      2. +2
                        14 June 2026 09: 51
                        Damn, and we ordered armored decks 12 years later request
                      3. -1
                        14 June 2026 12: 11
                        From the perspective of Andrey, I believe this wasn't a mistake either. Although perhaps I'm wrong, and Andrey at least acknowledges the large armored cruisers of the 1898 program were a mistake.

                        People tend to be wrong.
                      4. +2
                        14 June 2026 12: 57
                        Quote: Ragnar
                        Damn, and we ordered armored decks 12 years later

                        Yes, but we didn't think that such a ship could take on a battleship one-on-one:)))))
                      5. -1
                        14 June 2026 12: 02
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You read the source. And you know what I read. So why ask your question if you know it will deflect your assertions?

                        You stated that somewhere "They believed that a cruiser of this concept would be able to sink battleships.".

                        And then you quote: "Many assumed that it would become the prototype of a universal combat unit, capable of both effectively destroying enemy trade on the approaches to the enemy's main ports and replacing ironclads in the battle line."

                        It turns out they assumed, but didn’t calculate, and didn’t drown, but replaced.

                        Well, from a realist's perspective, I can state that those who made these assumptions were somewhat mistaken (apparently, the assumptions were made by obscure authors of articles in the French tabloid press, whose names and surnames history has not preserved. After all, D.B. Yakimovich and A.S. Alexandrov never provided the names of those who made these assumptions, not a single one).

                        So, in the real world, it was NOT armored cruisers with "high-explosive" armor of a significant part of the side made of homogeneous armor of 60-100 mm and a broadside salvo of two guns of 194 mm - 203 mm main and three or four medium (152-164 mm) caliber that were capable of replacing squadron battleships in the line of battle for some time (until the time when, after the Russo-Japanese War, effective 12" armor-piercing shells with armor-piercing caps and delayed-action fuses were adopted by the world's fleets), but cruisers that appeared a little later with armor of a significant part of the side with 127-178 mm cemented armor plates and with four 203 mm main guns (as an option with two 203 mm and one 254 mm main caliber gun) and six or seven 152 mm guns. medium caliber in a broadside salvo (with a number of guns in a broadside salvo no less than that of "standard" squadron battleships, with a higher rate of fire of their smaller 203-254 mm main caliber guns).

                        Yes, it turned out that these very cruisers could already be successfully placed in the line of battle, although together with the "standard" squadron battleships, and not instead of them.

                        It is possible, because in terms of the maximum firepower of their artillery (the total mass of shells fired at an enemy ship per minute), they were practically not inferior to the "standard" squadron battleships of that time, while having sufficient protection even from 12" caliber armor-piercing shells (due to the imperfection of these shells at that time, which, at best, exploded either in the process of penetrating a 150-178 mm cemented armor plate, or in the first side compartment behind such an armor plate).

                        At the same time, original thinkers who believed that such cruisers were capable of completely replacing squadron battleships did not survive even in the French tabloid press of the second half of the 1890s - first half of the 1900s.

                        Only in the Russian Empire there remained one great original, with the rank of vice-admiral, who dreamed of "universal ships" with 203 mm - 152 mm artillery, and even without side armor (so to speak, more in number, cheaper in price), capable of completely replacing battleships.
                        And if there was no mistake, then you need to invent a mistake for your ancestors.

                        Yes, yes, I am a denigrator of the excellent professionals from the MTC during the time of General-Admiral Grand Duke Alexei Alexandrovich, who did not allow a single mistake in preparation for the future Russo-Japanese War, and who approved ship designs for the Russian fleet developed under the general supervision of the most talented French shipbuilder Henri Lagane. :)))
                        So, in his official report, the rear admiral refutes... "unknown, enthusiastic journalists"? What nonsense is this?

                        That nasty Vice-Admiral Alquier. He also invented big mistakes that never actually happened. "It would be a big mistake to think that ships of this type can measure their strength against battleships." How could he even bring himself to write something like that in his report?! A filthy slanderer of excellent assumptions! But an honest professional. laughing
                        You know, I'm simply tired of your stream of lies. You lie and lie and lie. You lie constantly and verifiably, but with great aplomb and lengthy reasoning.

                        That's perfectly normal, dear Andrey. Idealists always tire of the "streams of lies" from realists. After all, idealists view the world, and our history in particular, through rose-colored glasses.

                        I can't blame you for this. After all, it's part of your nature.
                        You took it out of context, since this is the authors’ own conclusion in the afterword.

                        If the authors wrote in their conclusion that "Initially, the ship was simply not designed for this (note: for combat with squadron battleships)." then who are they in your opinion, also slanderers?

                        Or maybe the authors thus drew a distinction between popularizers and populists who are in the press "It was assumed that it would become the prototype of a universal combat unit capable of... replacing battleships in the line of battle.", and true professionals who used calculations, in particular, calculated how long the designed armored cruiser could hold out in the line of battle against an Admiral-class battleship? wink

                        Incidentally, against an Admiral-class battleship, such calculations should have demonstrated quite a good chance. But against a Royal Sovereign-class battleship, no. wink
                        What are you lying about this time? ...in that you deliberately distort the authors of the source and present their verdict on Dupuy-de-Lome's ability to fight ironclads as the opinions of French admirals at the time of its creation?

                        The word "NO" was lost in your emotional response. The authors, of course, in their book formulated a verdict on the inability of the Dupuy-de-Lôme to fight "standard" British battleships.

                        I think it's worth noting that at the time the Dupuy-de-Lome was being designed, the Royal Sovereign-class battleships were also, at best, only being designed, and the respected authors D. B. Yakimovich and A. S. Alexandrov with their verdict "I simply didn't expect this to happen initially." They could have been somewhat mistaken. After three Royal Sovereign-class battleships were laid down in 1889 (which, incidentally, entered service in 1892-1893), any initial calculations could be thrown into the trash. By the time Dupuy-de-Lôme entered service in 1895, eight Royal Sovereigns had already been commissioned, and true professionals were better off forgetting any calculations from 1888.

                        As you can see, I find mistakes in everyone.

                        I am satisfied with your emotional reaction. You, dear Andrey, are angry.

                        Iuppiter iratus ergo nefas wink

                        Thank you for the interesting conversation, during which I noticed a very likely error in the work of the esteemed D. B. Yakimovich and A. S. Alexandrov. wink
                      6. +3
                        14 June 2026 13: 15
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        You stated that somewhere you "thought that a cruiser of this concept would be able to sink battleships."

                        And he confirmed this with a link to a source.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Well, from a realist's perspective, I can state that those who made these assumptions were somewhat mistaken (apparently, the assumptions were made by obscure authors of articles in the French tabloid press, whose names and surnames history has not preserved. After all, D.B. Yakimovich and A.S. Alexandrov never provided the names of those who made these assumptions, not a single one).

                        This is not the position of a realist, it is the position of a person for whom it is important to win the dispute at any cost.
                        The source states everything perfectly clearly. And now you're using the usual debater's trick: you've made up a demand and declared, "If this demand isn't met, then everything is wrong." Therefore, your thesis, "If the admirals' names aren't there, then it was a tabloid piece of work," is equivalent to "If the source doesn't prove Fermat's theorem, then it was a tabloid piece of work."
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        As you can see, I find mistakes in everyone.

                        Yes. Besides yourself. That's where you simply have a blind spot.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        I am satisfied with your emotional reaction.

                        I have no doubt about it:)))
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Dear Andrey, you are angry.

                        Why? There's no point in being angry with you. You've invented a history of the Russian Imperial Navy, and other navies, and you believe in it, and you feel like you're bringing enlightenment to the masses. laughing
                        At the same time, you're, unfortunately, incapable of critically examining your own statements. This is normal; many people are unable to think critically about themselves, and I regularly encounter such people both online and at work. This is the norm, so what's the point of getting angry about it?
                        I'm certainly quite tired of you, as you're essentially wasting my time. But, unfortunately, I can't ignore your pseudoscientific comments on my articles, lest you mislead others.
                      7. +1
                        14 June 2026 13: 46
                        And yes - from the answer to the question I asked directly
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        What are you lying about this time?

                        You dodged:))))))
                      8. 0
                        14 June 2026 19: 01
                        I wrote to you with complete sincerity that I adhere to the post-Tsushima views of domestic professionals and Soviet naval historians. And although I know facts that Soviet historians overlooked—for example, that the Russian Navy did not have 12-inch shells with high explosive explosive charges and delayed-action fuses during the Russo-Japanese War—I can state that the Soviet historians were absolutely correct in their conclusions.

                        And how am I lying in your opinion?

                        Apparently, I was good at attributing to you the writing of the article series on the topic of "Boyan!" although you apparently want to paint for readers a completely objective technical history of our "bare-bottomed" armored cruiser, which even in the second iteration failed to "cover its backside" with ~32 tons (or so) of side armor to protect the steering mechanisms in case of an attack from the stern.

                        It's just that your "objective picture" is quite different from that of the respected authors of monographs, Rafail Mikhailovich Melnikov, Sergei Evgenievich Vinogradov, and Alexei Dmitrievich Fedechkin. It's rather rosy, perhaps. Along the lines of: "Half as powerful in broadside fire? But it fired its 8" guns faster. No armor belt in the stern? Well, it didn't really need it." And so on and so forth. Your picture is very rosy. laughing
                      9. 0
                        14 June 2026 13: 15
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        You stated that somewhere you "thought that a cruiser of this concept would be able to sink battleships."

                        And he confirmed this with a link to a source.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Well, from a realist's perspective, I can state that those who made these assumptions were somewhat mistaken (apparently, the assumptions were made by obscure authors of articles in the French tabloid press, whose names and surnames history has not preserved. After all, D.B. Yakimovich and A.S. Alexandrov never provided the names of those who made these assumptions, not a single one).

                        This is not the position of a realist, it is the position of a person for whom it is important to win the dispute at any cost.
                        The source states everything perfectly clearly. And now you're using the usual debater's trick: you've made up a demand and declared, "If this demand isn't met, then everything is wrong." Therefore, your thesis, "If the admirals' names aren't there, then it was a tabloid piece of work," is equivalent to "If the source doesn't prove Fermat's theorem, then it was a tabloid piece of work."
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        As you can see, I find mistakes in everyone.

                        Yes. Besides yourself. That's where you simply have a blind spot.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        I am satisfied with your emotional reaction.

                        I have no doubt about it:)))
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Dear Andrey, you are angry.

                        Why? There's no point in being angry with you. You've invented a history of the Russian Imperial Navy, and other navies, and you believe in it, and you feel like you're bringing enlightenment to the masses. laughing
                        At the same time, you're, unfortunately, incapable of critically examining your own statements. This is normal; many people are unable to think critically about themselves, and I regularly encounter such people both online and at work. This is the norm, so what's the point of getting angry about it?
                        I'm certainly quite tired of you, as you're essentially wasting my time. But, unfortunately, I can't ignore your pseudoscientific comments on my articles, lest you mislead others.
                      10. -1
                        14 June 2026 18: 24
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And he confirmed this with a link to a source.

                        In which the authors of the monograph hold the opinion that the cruiser Dupuy-de-Lôme "wasn't originally designed for this (battle with a battleship)." I looked at the British military's capabilities by 1888 and even suggested that the authors of the monograph were somewhat mistaken in this "initially" view. Although, after the laying of three Royal Sovereign-class battleships in 1889, even a basic calculation should have made it perfectly clear to true professionals that the captain of the Dupuy-de-Lôme should have avoided a battle with a Royal Sovereign-class battleship at all costs. So, if the authors of the monograph were mistaken in their "initially" view, it was by a year at most.
                        But there's a huge gap between assumptions and calculations. I prefer calculations. What about you?
                        This is not the position of a realist, it is the position of a person for whom it is important to win the dispute at any cost.
                        The source says it all very clearly.

                        I thought we were having a discussion. wink All the necessary quotes from the monograph have already been provided. An outside observer can only marvel at how differently different people can read the same source. Not to mention how differently different people can understand the historical realities of naval shipbuilding in the late 1880s and 1890s. wink
                        "If there are no names of admirals, it means it was a tabloid press" is equivalent to "if Fermat's theorem is not proven in the source, it means it was a tabloid press."

                        The authors actually quoted one admiral, and he turned out to be a solid professional, whose point of view from 1895 turned out to be in solidarity with the position of the authors of the monograph with their historical hindsight from the 21st century.

                        Rear-Admiral Alquier was absolutely right in 1895 when he wrote that it would be a great mistake to think that cruisers of the Dupuy-de-Lôme type could measure their strength in naval battles with battleships.

                        On the other hand, let's return to our homeland: Vice-Admiral Makarov, from 1896 until his death in 1904, was completely wrong when he believed that his "armorless ships" could measure their strength in naval battles with battleships.

                        You do not agree?
                        Yes. Besides yourself. That's where you simply have a blind spot.

                        I find mistakes in myself too. It's human nature to make mistakes. I don't have cognitive rigidity yet. wink
                        I have no doubt about it:)))

                        Well, now you're laughing. That's good.
                        There's no point in being angry with you. You've invented a history of the Russian Imperial Navy, and other navies, and you believe in it, and you feel like you're bringing enlightenment to the masses.

                        The trick is that the picture of the RIF's history that I follow is completely consistent with the post-Tsushima views of Russian professionals on what happened and the views of Soviet historians of the Russian navy on the events that led to the Tsushima disaster.

                        I've never been impressed by the charm of post-Soviet revisionist historians, in their postmodern war on modernity, who rushed to inform the general public that Russian shells weren't all that bad, and, let's face it, even better than Japanese ones (after all, they could penetrate armor! And for every hit from a Russian shell, on average, there were more killed and wounded than for every hit from a Japanese shell!), that Rozhdestvensky had a chance at the Battle of Tsushima if he had maneuvered differently, or given different orders before the battle, and so on and so forth. For example, the cruiser "Bayan" was a very successful pre-war design for an armored cruiser for the domestic navy (since they later built three more of the same, it must have been successful, right?) compared to armored cruisers "in the squadron" of the same time, but built in Britain, Italy, Germany, and even France ("Azuma").

                        So, I'm not bringing any new "light of enlightenment to the masses." I maintain that the post-Tsushima Russian professionals and Soviet naval historians were absolutely right. And attempts to revise their conclusions are pure historical romanticism, a "Boyar-Anime" about the imposing General-Admiral of the Empire, Grand Duke Alexei Alexandrovich, and his Naval Technical Committee, which made balanced shipbuilding and other technical decisions. And the fact that they lost the Russo-Japanese War... well, that was God's will.
                        At the same time, you are, unfortunately, incapable of critically considering your own theses.

                        At least I can back up my criticism of your interesting stories about the pre-Tsushima Russian Imperial Navy with coherent arguments. For example, the Garibaldi cost about the same as the Bayan, but had far superior armor protection and a broadside twice as powerful. All they had to do was tell the French: "We want the same"—they were willing to build whatever the customer wanted. And although the French weren't exactly known for their construction quality (the Azuma, for instance, turned out to be the worst of the eight newest Japanese armored cruisers acquired by the Mikado fleet before the war), they could have built something on the level of the Ansado design from 1893, and even with a more modern crane-manipulating mechanism. But that's beside the point.
                        But I am certainly very tired of you, since you are essentially wasting my time.

                        Indeed, I'm probably seriously distracting you from writing the next installments of your "Boyar-Anime" series on the theme "Bayan" was good!" I think many readers are eagerly awaiting the continuation. I apologize to you and to them.
          2. +2
            10 June 2026 14: 41
            Quote: AlexanderA
            This thesis of yours in relation to me is wrong and not substantiated in any way.

            Dear Alexander, I do not intend to post the archives of the Ministère de la Marine on the website.
            You have attributed to the French of that time ideas that were anachronistic for them.

            I can write down whose tactical developments these are, indicating the date and document number. Apparently, you can only suggest some forum or a Russian author. Unfortunately, that won't convince me of your correctness.
            1. +1
              10 June 2026 15: 56
              Quote: 27091965i
              I can write whose tactical developments these are, indicating the date and document number.

              You can. But when the cruiser Dupuy de Lôme was being designed, which was considered as a technical prototype for determining "what kind of Bayan we needed," these developments had not yet been developed. Dupuy de Lôme was designed as a commerce raider, not somewhere overseas, but in waters close to the British Isles—and therefore with modest endurance and increased combat stability, but not in battle with armored squadrons. The Dupuy de Lôme was supposed to be able to outrun battleships, at best.

              And then the project's major technical flaw occurred: the cruiser's fire-tube boilers failed to provide the required steam output, and the cruiser failed to achieve its design speed during trials. Attempts to "solve" this technical problem delayed the cruiser's commissioning for three long years. While the cruiser was revolutionary in 1892, by the time it entered service in 1895, the same Italian "Garibaldi" was already being completed, featuring a full waterline armor belt of Harvey armor and two 10-inch guns in turrets, not counting ten 152 mm guns in an armored casemate and six 120 mm guns with shields on the upper deck.

              In short, when the MTC was determining "what kind of Bayan we needed" in 1897, they weren't familiar with the French tactical developments on the use of armored cruisers in battles between armored squadrons, nor, especially, with the technical implications of these tactical developments that manifested themselves in the designs of the latest generation of French armored cruisers. They were familiar only with the Dupuy de Lôme, designed in the late 1880s, and its cheaper and inferior derivative, the Pothuot, a slightly improved version of the rather inept Amiral Charnet-class cruisers.

              Thus, it turned out that the Russian fleet had nothing to copy from the French in 1897: neither new tactical principles, nor new technical consequences from these new tactical principles.

              But if you were to give a detailed explanation of the tactical principles by which the French determined the technical features of such monsters as the Amiral Charnet, Pothuot, and Dupleix cruisers, I think everyone would be interested.
      2. -3
        4 June 2026 13: 44
        The "Bayan" is a completely pointless ship, in every respect. And yet, it was so widely reproduced. And as a result, in WWI, two "Bayans" escape from the "Blyukher."
  15. 0
    2 June 2026 22: 32
    Andrey loves to make profound conclusions based on his own arguments pulled out of thin air. wassat
    There's no direct connection between the number of shells fired and the sudden conclusion about the superiority of single-gun turrets. It's much better explained by the specifics of aiming and fire control. The Japanese aimed more carefully, so they fired more slowly. But they hit significantly more often. I don't know why Andrey assumed the aiming time was the same; as usual, he made it up himself. The fact is, the aiming patterns, as well as the overall fire control systems, of the Russian and Japanese were significantly different.

    The idea of ​​two-story casemates also seems dubious. It's worth recalling Iwata, whose explosion in the upper casemate also disabled the gun in the lower casemate. Separating the guns from each other is certainly a more appropriate approach.

    Overall, I tend to side with the critics of Bayan's project. The ship is useless and of dubious purpose. An armored reconnaissance vessel is something like an armored submarine, and it's unclear why.
    1. +1
      3 June 2026 07: 15
      Quote: Saxahorse
      The Japanese aimed more carefully, so they shot more slowly.

      Considering that on January 27th the Bayan's accuracy was 3,57%, while the Japanese's was 2,34% in confirmed hits, the value of your comments cannot be underestimated:))) However, considering several shells, the caliber of which was determined to be 6-8 inch, it is possible that the Japanese did indeed reach the Bayan's accuracy:)))))
      1. 0
        3 June 2026 08: 54
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Taking into account several shells, the caliber of which was determined to be 6-8 inch, it is possible that the Japanese did reach the "Bayan" in terms of accuracy:

        Yes! Yes! Tell us that the Japanese shot one and a half times worse than the Russians throughout the war! wassat
        Why it was the Russian fleet that was completely destroyed is completely unclear! request
        1. +3
          3 June 2026 09: 03
          Quote: Saxahorse

          Yes! Yes! Tell us that the Japanese shot one and a half times worse than the Russians throughout the war!

          In the battle of January 27, the Japanese 8-inch gunners did not excel in accuracy, although the 8-inch guns expended almost half as many shells as the Bayan.
          Accordingly, your thesis that they shot slowly because they aimed better is useless.
          It's especially funny considering that in the ZhM battle, for example, the Japanese fired faster than the Russians with a 12-inch gun. And they hit more accurately.
          You are such a storyteller, Saxahors:))))))
          1. -2
            3 June 2026 19: 57
            As I see, Andrey doesn't miss a single opportunity to give me a minus. laughing
            He probably doesn't like reading my comments. I wonder why?

            In this article, for example, he tries to claim that the Bayan was almost as powerful as the Assam in terms of firepower. Which is, to put it mildly, absurd and far-fetched. Especially considering that this is based on some vague figures for shell consumption, arbitrarily spread across all the ships in the area of ​​the firefight. fool
            1. +5
              4 June 2026 09: 13
              Quote: Saxahorse
              In this article, for example, he tries to claim that in terms of firepower, the Bayan was almost as good as the Assam.

              That's not what he's saying at all. The point is that "Asama" is by no means equal to two "Bayans"—1,5 at most...
              1. 0
                5 June 2026 08: 51
                Quote: Ragnar
                That's not what he's saying at all. The point is that "Asama" is by no means equal to two "Bayans"—1,5 at most...

                You said the same thing I did. Andrey is exaggerating the Bayan's rate of fire without any basis. Basing its rate of fire on the shell consumption is absurd. Moreover, he doesn't have any precise figures for the ships; he's simply making things up here, or, in other words, fantasizing. laughing
                1. +2
                  5 June 2026 10: 30
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  It is absurd to justify the rate of fire by the consumption of shells.

                  How can you justify the rate of fire? The number of barrels?
                  1. -1
                    5 June 2026 20: 48
                    Quote: Trapper7
                    How can you justify the rate of fire? The number of barrels?

                    I'll let you in on a terrible secret! Rate of fire is usually measured in rounds per minute! And not by the navy's January shell write-off list...
                  2. 0
                    8 June 2026 12: 36
                    The technical capabilities of a specific artillery system and the training of personnel. If a battle lasted 240 minutes and a ship fired 100 shells per barrel, then what's the rate of fire—2,4 rounds per minute?
                    1. +2
                      8 June 2026 13: 34
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      If the battle lasted 240 minutes and the ship fired 100 shells per barrel, then what is the rate of fire - 2,4 rounds/min?

                      No. But if the battle lasted 20 minutes, during which cruiser A, armed with 2 guns, expended 40 shells, and cruiser B, armed with 4 guns, expended 48 shells, then this should lead to the conclusion that one gun of cruiser A has a higher rate of fire compared to a similar gun of cruiser B.
                      And if similar statistics are maintained in subsequent battles, with approximately the same percentage of hits...
                      1. +1
                        8 June 2026 15: 03
                        There was a breakdown—one of the guns didn't fire for 10 minutes, but the other three barrels fired. How do we calculate the rate of fire? Divide the ammunition consumption by three barrels or four? Let's take a specific example: during the rescue mission for the "Terrible," the "Bayan" expended eight 8-inch and 23 6-inch shells. What was the rate of fire?
                      2. 0
                        8 June 2026 15: 49
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        There was a malfunction—one of the guns didn't fire for 10 minutes, but the other three barrels fired. How do we calculate the rate of fire?

                        Yes, that's how it will be. From a basic mathematical standpoint, this calculation presents no difficulty.
                        Let's take a specific example: during the rescue of the "Terrible," the "Bayan" expended 8 8-inch and 23 6-inch shells. What was its rate of fire?

                        Specifically in that battle - one shot every 5 minutes (the battle lasted about 20 minutes).
                      3. 0
                        8 June 2026 16: 18
                        And what was the rate of fire?
                      4. +4
                        8 June 2026 16: 56
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And what was the rate of fire?

                        Sometimes I have a persistent feeling that you are just trolling.
                      5. +1
                        8 June 2026 18: 53
                        Not at all. I asked you how to calculate a gun's rate of fire, from your point of view.
                      6. +2
                        9 June 2026 07: 21
                        Quote: Trapper7
                        Sometimes I have a persistent feeling that you are just trolling.

                        This is not a feeling)))
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        There was a breakdown - one of the guns

                        Did it happen?
                      7. 0
                        10 June 2026 11: 00
                        And haven't any of these happened during the entire period of the Russian Nuclear Forces? So how do we calculate it?
                      8. +5
                        10 June 2026 11: 17
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And haven't any of these happened during the entire period of the Russian Nuclear Forces? So how do we calculate it?

                        Nikolay, who did the author write this for?
                        However, even these figures are incomplete and unsuitable for comparison. The fact is that all 16 Japanese 8-inch guns were undamaged during the battle and remained operational until the end. Meanwhile, Gromoboi lost its left aft 2-inch gun early in the battle, and Rossiya had only two aft guns still operational by the end.
                        Forgot?
                        You should, by God, get checked by a specialist.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        So how are we going to calculate it?

                        Well, that's how it's going to be. There's a technical rate of fire, which is calculated in rounds per minute, and then there's a combat rate of fire, which never matches the former. And if two ships are engaged, but the one with two main guns fired almost as many shells as the one with four, then we need to investigate the reasons.
                        The author tried. And you're just spamming, like that Baba Yaga who's always against...
                      9. -2
                        10 June 2026 12: 17
                        Answer the question. And don't worry about the specialist))) I have to go through an interview every year because I have weapons clearance.
                      10. +2
                        10 June 2026 15: 18
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        You answer the question.

                        That's how I seem to have answered...
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I have an interview every year because I have clearance.

                        The Kalabukhov House has disappeared...
                      11. -2
                        10 June 2026 17: 44
                        I think I've answered that question—how does that work? Just answer this simple question: "How would you calculate the rate of fire of a single gun in the Battle of Tsushima? Or near Shantung?"
                        Let me decipher the question: how many shells were fired during the battle by one conventional weapon (at your discretion) and how does this correlate with the technical rate of fire of this weapon?
                      12. +3
                        10 June 2026 19: 50
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        It seems like I answered - how is that?

                        What is unclear to you about the sentence?
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        There's a technical rate of fire, calculated in rounds per minute, and then there's a combat rate of fire, which never matches the former. And if two ships are engaged, but the one with two main guns fired almost as many shells as the one with four, then we need to investigate the reasons.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        "How will you calculate or calculate the rate of fire of one individual gun in the Battle of Tsushima?

                        A completely pointless question. However, for you this is normal.
                        There's no such thing as a single gun's rate of fire in combat. Simply because it can be located on the non-firing side. There's the number of shells fired by a given ship in combat. That's the number we base our calculations on. And if, say, a Bayan fired a hundred shells from its two barrels, and an Asama fired 110 from its four, it's clear that doubling the number of barrels didn't double the firepower.
                        Все.
                      13. -1
                        12 June 2026 12: 30
                        Same thing again))) Oh well, that's it, that's it))
                      14. +3
                        9 June 2026 21: 18
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        How do we calculate the rate of fire? Should we divide the ammunition consumption by three barrels or four?

                        The Japanese usually wrote down the time of breakdown and the time of repair in the combat report.
                      15. -3
                        10 June 2026 11: 03
                        Have you read and processed all the reports from all Japanese ship commanders, including the "dogs," for the entire period of the Russian Nuclear War? Considering that the commanders took all incidents into account in their reports. They might have ignored minor ones.
                2. +2
                  5 June 2026 15: 09
                  I disagree, he cites the Bayan's rate of fire in figures, where is the exaggeration here???
                  1. 0
                    5 June 2026 20: 54
                    Quote: Ragnar
                    I disagree, he cites the Bayan's rate of fire in figures, where is the exaggeration here???

                    The numbers are inflated. Andrey simply mixed the good with the bad. I reminded him earlier that rate of fire should be measured in rounds per minute. Andrey simply took the ammunition write-off records, randomly assigned them to ships, and declared that rate of fire. He claims to be unaware that not all ships were directly involved in the battle, or that some were even ordered to "aim better." Instead, he draws some very bold conclusions based on a simple manipulation of the numbers.
                  2. +3
                    5 June 2026 21: 30
                    Quote: Ragnar
                    Where is the exaggeration here???

                    Alexey, don't argue :)))) Saksakhors has been around for a long time—he thrives on controversy for the sake of controversy. He makes completely unsubstantiated claims, and when you refute them, he makes up new ones. At first, I simply wrote a comment to his readers, saying, "Dear readers, do I need to comment on this nonsense, or is it all clear to everyone?", but then I gave up completely. And so, depending on my mood, I comment on individual gems.
                    1. +1
                      6 June 2026 22: 47
                      Andrey, thank you... I've already understood more about who's here, what's here... why and for what... drinks
            2. -1
              4 June 2026 18: 38
              Do you want to take away my last crust of bread?))) I have been a devoted and selfless admirer of his talent for more than 10 years now)))
              1. +1
                5 June 2026 15: 12
                Send me the address... We will support you with our whole company... There will definitely be enough for bread...
                1. 0
                  5 June 2026 17: 11
                  Unfortunately, I'm afraid there will be problems with this - after all, I don't live in Russia)
                  1. 0
                    6 June 2026 15: 14
                    But I don’t live in Russia either...
                    1. 0
                      6 June 2026 17: 24
                      Then you and I are comrades in misfortune. But it's gratifying that there are people who, although they don't live in it, still care deeply about it.
                      1. 0
                        6 June 2026 23: 24
                        No, no... I'm not Russia, but I'm in the ranks...
        2. -2
          4 June 2026 13: 52
          You don't need to understand anything, the article wasn't written for understanding, but to fill in the blanks on VO))) well, the fact that RIF suffered a crushing defeat is purely coincidental, it happens - bad luck)))
          1. +2
            5 June 2026 10: 31
            Quote: TermNachTER
            The fact that RIF suffered a crushing defeat was purely coincidental; it happens – just bad luck)))

            So, we suffered a defeat because of Bayan?
            1. 0
              5 June 2026 13: 03
              Not just because of the Bayan, but because of the inept shipbuilding program. And, in general, because of Russia's inept policy in the Far East. We had to choose one thing: 1. We don't seek confrontation with Japan, we don't interfere in Manchuria and Korea, we focus all our resources on developing the Far East (Vladivostok), Sakhalin, and Kamchatka.
              2. We are heading for a confrontation with Japan, and accordingly, we are focusing all our efforts on strengthening the army and navy in the Far East. The Tsarist government did neither. Despite all this, I personally have a profound dislike for Witte, who writes about this in considerable detail.
              1. 0
                5 June 2026 13: 29
                2... Option 2... I agree with you, I wrote about this... "There will be no war" - that's our everything...
                1. 0
                  5 June 2026 17: 04
                  I have no doubt that war with Japan would have happened someday. But if Russia had followed one of the options, it wouldn't have happened in 1904. It would have happened sometime later, under different circumstances.
            2. +1
              5 June 2026 21: 08
              Quote: Trapper7
              So, we suffered a defeat because of Bayan?

              If you reread Andrey's work carefully, you'll see we didn't suffer any defeat at all. Read his old article about how Rozhdestvensky outplayed Togo! True, he lost his entire squadron and ended up captured himself, but he still outplayed him! wassat
              1. 0
                6 June 2026 17: 27
                That's what I'm saying - it's complete nonsense, not worth mentioning))) So what if we lost all the ships in the Far East and the Baltic - that's just part of life, we'll build them again)))
    2. -3
      4 June 2026 13: 48
      You don't understand anything))) the great and terrible one has already explained everything to everyone))) everyone else just has to keep quiet and read)) but at the same time, you need to have a basin nearby - that's not enough)))
  16. 0
    2 June 2026 23: 17
    An 80 kg eight-inch shell is a disgrace! Not an 8", but a 6" shell - way oversized. I'm not saying it should have been like the De Moine one at 1.5 hundredweight, but it should have weighed at least a hundredweight.
    1. +3
      3 June 2026 10: 40
      87,8 kg or 214,5 Russian artillery pounds.
      With a relative weight of 10,5, our 203mm projectile is the lightest even in the RIF.
      The shell for the British 190mm gun weighed about 90 kg...
      But with the replacement of the Rosenberg lock with the Welin (Vickers) lock, the rate of fire is up to 6 rounds per minute from 8"!
      Well, this was after the RYAV.
      1. +2
        3 June 2026 11: 08
        Quote: 65-73
        With a relative weight of 10,5, our 203mm projectile is the lightest even in the RIF

        One of the French standard shells for the Canon de 194 mm weighed 75 kg, so the 87,7 kg shell is not the lightest yet.
    2. +3
      4 June 2026 09: 31
      Quote: bk0010
      An 80 kg eight-inch shell is a disgrace! Not an 8", but a 6" shell - way oversized. I'm not saying it should have been like the De Moine one at 1.5 hundredweight, but it should have weighed at least a hundredweight.

      The shell carriers of the Gromoboy, Rossiya, and Rurik would disagree with you... And the Khrabry, too...
  17. 0
    3 June 2026 00: 40
    The author highlighted the non-cemented armor in the bottom right, but he should also highlight all the numbers in the top left, which are outside the shell's actual capabilities, in a different color. He writes as if his shells are indestructible! Because in reality, an 8-inch shell will never penetrate 352 mm of armor, no matter how fast you accelerate it!

    It's necessary to determine precisely how much armor a shell could penetrate and remain intact without exploding upon penetration. Even if some fragments of the shell fall into a coal pit, this doesn't count as armor penetration. The shell must explode amidships; otherwise, armor-piercing capability is meaningless.
    1. +1
      3 June 2026 06: 46
      Quote: Theorist
      He writes as if his shells are indestructible! Because in reality, an 8-inch shell won't penetrate 352 mm of armor, no matter how fast you accelerate it!

      Why do you think so?
    2. +5
      4 June 2026 00: 23
      Quote: Theorist
      In reality, an 8-inch shell won't penetrate 352 mm of armor.

      In fact, 8-inch shells were tested against 305-mm armor. (6-inch shells - 254-mm, 12-inch shells - 406-mm)
      1. +2
        5 June 2026 11: 35
        Quote: rytik32
        6-inch - 254-mm

        In addition, I will note that there are known cases when these same 6-inch shells penetrated 254 mm with a whistle and in one piece.
        1. 0
          9 June 2026 21: 28
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          In addition, I will note that there are known cases when these same 6-inch shells penetrated 254 mm with a whistle and in one piece.


          It's strange, but as I recall, in your writings you wrote, "Not a single shell penetrated the armor intact." And then you immediately wrote fantastic figures for these same shells in tables.

          Why do you think armor-piercing shells were made from incredibly strong steel, essentially the same as armor? Do you really think you can endlessly increase the speed and thickness of armor and still have them penetrate everything? - No, the shells would simply begin to disintegrate.

          And not only did the shell need to be externally intact, but it also needed to be intact internally, so it had to be tested with live fire, simulating coal pits and bulkheads. And the deceleration had to be at least 0,5 seconds, allowing the shell to fully expend its kinetic energy, come to a stop, and only then explode.

          I wrote a little higher that practice showed that no one had normal armor-piercing shells!
          1. +3
            10 June 2026 06: 28
            Quote: Theorist
            It's strange, but as I recall, in your writings you wrote, "Not a single shell penetrated the armor intact." And then you immediately wrote fantastic figures for these same shells in tables.

            I described the details of the tests of 6-inch shells here.
            https://topwar.ru/237600-ispytanija-120-mm-i-6-dm-morskih-snarjadov-1903-1906-gg-po-brone-kruppa.html
            and in them the passage beyond the 254 mm plate is present as a whole.
            Quote: Theorist
            I wrote a little higher that practice showed that no one had normal armor-piercing shells!

            You wrote nonsense.
            Quote: Theorist
            And not only does the projectile need to be intact externally, it also needs to remain normal internally.

            This phrase suggests that you have a very poor understanding of how the projectile works.
            Quote: Theorist
            And the slowdown should have been at least 0,5 seconds,

            Such a slowdown was not observed on naval AP shells either in the Russian Nuclear War, or in WWI, or in WWII.
          2. +3
            10 June 2026 11: 10
            Quote: Theorist
            Why do you think armor-piercing shells were made from very strong steel, essentially the same as armor?

            Armor-piercing shells and armor were made from different types of steel.
            Armor-piercing shells were made of crucible steel. Read up on this steel and you'll understand why it wasn't used for armor.
            1. -1
              10 June 2026 17: 49
              Any steel can be made in a crucible, and the purpose of melting in a crucible (vacuum) is to prevent harmful impurities from entering the steel. Armor-piercing shells can be made from any alloy steel; a crucible is not required.
              1. +3
                10 June 2026 22: 55
                In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, high-quality alloy steel could only be produced in a crucible. This was difficult and expensive, as crucible sizes were limited. For example, when casting a gun barrel, the contents of dozens of crucibles were poured into the mold almost simultaneously!
                Later, electric furnaces replaced the crucible.
                1. 0
                  12 June 2026 12: 34
                  For gun barrels, yes. For armor-piercing shells, no. When steel smelting using the Siemens-Martin method reached acceptable quality in the second half of the 19th century, shells began to be made from it. When producing armor-piercing shells, the most important thing isn't the purity of the steel, but the subsequent compaction of the blank while hot using a press or a mechanical hammer, at a rate of about 50 tons.
                  1. +2
                    12 June 2026 13: 20
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    They started making shells out of it

                    Then tell me which factory and which armor-piercing shells were made from anything other than crucible steel. And did they pass inspection?
                    1. 0
                      12 June 2026 14: 32
                      In Russia, three factories made shells for the navy, and the Finns did too. I don't know exactly when or how much, but it's certain they weren't made from crucibles. How much steel did one crucible furnace produce in 1900?
                      How many melts per day could there be, even with a 14-hour workday? Or did they work without weekends or holidays? And didn't the furnaces ever stop for repairs?
                      1. +2
                        12 June 2026 14: 48
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        There are three factories in Russia

                        Putilovsky, Obukhovsky, Permsky, Bryansky - I already know four
                        but that is definitely not from the crucible

                        I know many people tried to make it from open-hearth steel, but no one succeeded. Some couldn't even do it from crucible steel...
                        Only the Putilov plant, which had bought the technology from the French, could produce large shells.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        How much steel did one crucible furnace produce in 1900?

                        Read literature about factories, everything is there.
                      2. 0
                        12 June 2026 18: 33
                        I don't just read it))) We have vacuum furnaces at our factory – they make heat-resistant alloys for turbine blades and other parts. These furnaces, like the crucible furnaces in Tsarist Russia, are quite small. Where does all this steel come from – for cannons, shells, tooling, etc.?
                      3. +2
                        12 June 2026 19: 35
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The dimensions of these furnaces, like the crucible furnaces in Tsarist Russia

                        In the mid-90s, the Putilov Iron and Steel Works had two gas-fired furnaces, each with 30 crucibles. A full crucible held 1,5 poods of charge. At maximum capacity, both furnaces could produce 88 poods of steel per year.
                      4. 0
                        12 June 2026 20: 38
                        Is that without days off, without holidays, without repairs, without defects? 1400 tons – one 305mm gun – 39 (44) tons, and so on. Read at your leisure; there's a large section devoted to metallurgy issues in the period you're interested in – Polikarpov, V.V., Shipbuilding under Emperor Nicholas II. Essays on Technological History.
                      5. +4
                        12 June 2026 22: 53
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        400 tons - one 305 mm gun

                        Read some books, finally! The guns were manufactured at the Obukhov factory, not the Putilov factory!
                      6. -1
                        13 June 2026 10: 36
                        So it was you who wrote about the Putilov factory, not me.
                      7. +3
                        13 June 2026 14: 39
                        So you would count the smelted metal in shells, not guns )))
      2. 0
        9 June 2026 21: 10
        Quote: rytik32
        In fact, 8-inch shells were tested against 305-mm armor. (6-inch shells - 254-mm, 12-inch shells - 406-mm)


        Sorry, I didn't notice you replied. So, what were the results? And more importantly, what was the practical outcome? One well-known user calculated that during the entire war, Russian shells penetrated armor seven times, while Japanese shells penetrated only five. And even then, only one actual penetration occurred—a hit on the Fuji turret. But the armor was thin, and there were no coal pits or bulkheads behind it. And even then, it was of little use; the turret started firing after 40 minutes!

        So neither side had any real armor-piercing shells, no matter what they called them!
        1. +3
          9 June 2026 21: 15
          Quote: Theorist
          So what were the results?

          If the projectile did not penetrate the specified plate, then the batch of projectiles was rejected.

          Quote: Theorist
          So neither side had any real armor-piercing shells.

          Thanks, made laugh
          1. -1
            9 June 2026 21: 56
            Quote: rytik32
            Thanks, made laugh


            A proper armor-piercing shell is needed to destroy an enemy ship; to do that, it must explode in the magazines, or at least in the engine rooms, so that it at least stops. Otherwise, armor-piercing shells are useless, because other shells will be more effective in other situations. And if an armor-piercing shell hits an unarmored end, pierces it completely, and explodes outside the ship—what's the point?

            At Jutland, the Germans had decent armor-piercing shells, and the British cruisers exploded! And since not a single ship exploded during the entire Russian War, it means no one had decent armor-piercing shells, so you could say armor won that battle!
            1. +3
              9 June 2026 22: 17
              Quote: Theorist
              The Germans had decent armor-piercing shells at Jutland.

              Did at least one German shell explode in the cellar or the KMU?
              You contradict yourself!
              1. -1
                9 June 2026 22: 24
                Quote: rytik32
                Did at least one German shell explode in the cellar or the KMU?
                You contradict yourself!


                I don't know where they exploded, but they were probably in the magazines, since the ships exploded. Who can say for sure—the ships sank? A little later, the cruiser Hood exploded—the cause of its destruction is still debated.
                1. +2
                  9 June 2026 22: 32
                  Quote: Theorist
                  I don't know where they exploded, but probably in the cellars, since the ships exploded.

                  No, not in the cellars!
            2. +4
              10 June 2026 06: 35
              Quote: Theorist
              At Jutland, the Germans had normal armor-piercing shells and the English cruisers exploded!

              You apparently didn't think about the fact that the Germans had much more powerful guns in Jutland.
              1. -3
                10 June 2026 11: 06
                Of course))) 280mm against 343mm is indescribable power))) and against 381mm, the British should have sunk right into Scapa)))
                1. +2
                  10 June 2026 11: 34
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  Of course))) 280 mm versus 343 mm - that's indescribable power)))

                  Kolya couldn't even figure out that they were talking about Russian guns from the RYA era and German ones from WWI... But then, how could he, if he can't even make out the armor deck on the armor diagram, as was revealed in the adjacent thread...
                  1. -1
                    10 June 2026 12: 22
                    Andrey, learn to read))) at least in Russian, I don't insist on English or Japanese. Your phrase: "The Germans had much more powerful guns in Jutland." Where is this about Russian guns from the RYA era? And where is the drawing of the Bayan's aft section? Another scary story from a secret SOURCE?
                    1. 0
                      10 June 2026 12: 34
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      your phrase: "the Germans in Jutland had much more powerful guns."

                      Nikolai, if you're going to get involved in this discussion, please take the time to read it. Then everything will be clear.
                      Although, you probably won't. You're so... that even after being told directly, you couldn't find the Bayan's armored deck below the waterline on the diagram.
                      Nikolay, seriously - how do you, with such outstanding deductive abilities, manage to remember the route from work to home?
                      1. -1
                        10 June 2026 13: 18
                        Of course, writing in a way that people understand is difficult. The main thing is to avoid the "scientific nonsense")))
            3. 0
              16 June 2026 09: 36
              To blow up the cellars, it is necessary to penetrate the armor of the belt, barbettes, and traverses that protected these cellars...
              Moreover, at a distance twice as great as what Russian artillerymen had expected before the Russian Air Force.
              And this requires energy, which Russian guns lacked at an average range of 30 cables instead of 15...
              It was not for nothing that the Japanese were the first in the world to extend the artillery range to 30 cable lengths – this was the basis of their crushing victory in that war...
              This Japanese know-how could only be neutralized with full-fledged land mines, but we really didn’t have them back then!
        2. +3
          10 June 2026 06: 33
          Quote: Theorist
          And what is the most important thing in practice?

          In practice, to penetrate armor, a projectile must have sufficient velocity on the armor. And to penetrate something with an AP shell, you have to fire an AP shell, and we were supposed to use them with 20 kbt, but such ranges were almost nonexistent.
          Quote: Theorist
          and even then there was only one real normal penetration

          Your memory is failing you - there were others - in total, Russian shells passed through the armor intact in 3 cases
  18. 0
    3 June 2026 00: 48
    The Brink fuse's intermediate detonator contained only 45 grams (not 80 grams, or 0,08 kg) of dry pyroxylin, which was insufficient to achieve stable detonation in the wet pyroxylin bursting charge. American experiments in the late 19th century with wet pyroxylin charges (if I remember correctly, 16% moisture) demonstrated that achieving stable, complete detonation of a wet pyroxylin charge (the experiments involved detonating torpedo charge compartments) required a dry pyroxylin intermediate detonator approximately twice the weight of the dry pyroxylin intermediate detonator in the Brink fuse.

    https://keu-ocr.narod.ru/Uroki/

    "152 mm high-explosive shells with Brink's bottom double-cap tubes and loaded with 920 g of wet and 45 g of dry pyroxylin pierced light barriers and exploded only upon impact with the ground."

    https://4etalka.ru/dokumentalnaya_literatura_main/voennaya_dokumentalistika_i_analitika/584508/fulltext.htm

    "The Russian 152 mm armor-piercing shell contained about 1 pound (438 g wet and 45 g dry (in the fuse) pyroxylin), and the high-explosive shell about 2 pounds (920 g wet and 45 g dry (in the fuse) pyroxylin)."
    "The turrets of the armored cruiser Bayan were French and, it should be noted, of a completely modern design."

    Perhaps only for the French navy of that time, which was a completely modern design. Until the early 20th century, even the main guns of battleships in the French navy used manual elevation.

    The Bayan turrets had neither an electric elevation drive nor a loading mechanism. An electric VN drive was never installed.

    At least the criticized Japanese cruiser turrets had non-manual (manual, backup) elevation drives, but hydraulic (Asama, Tokiwa), or electric (Izumo, Iwate, Yakumo, Azuma, Kasuga, Nisshin). For a number of reasons, these turrets could not sustain their peak rate of fire for long, which they could only demonstrate at the very beginning of a battle. However, for the Russo-Japanese War and specifically for the Japanese fleet, they had two advantages.

    1. At long ranges, artillery fire could be performed by salvoes. A four-gun salvo provides a much better targeting determination than a two-gun salvo.

    2. Japanese shells from the Russo-Japanese War often exploded right in the gun barrels. When shells frequently explode in gun barrels, it's better to have four guns in two turrets rather than two.

    For example, the cruiser Nisshin lost three of its four 8-inch (203 mm) guns in the Battle of Tsushima, apparently from the explosions of its own shells (according to official Japanese history, from Russian shells hitting its gun barrels). By the end of the battle, the ship had only one operational main gun left, in the aft turret.
    It must be said that although the design of the turrets of the Bayan II and Admiral Makarov was different, there were no fundamental differences.

    If the mechanized chambering in the vertical aiming range of -8+5°, the step-rifled breechblock of the Obukhov plant system instead of the Rosenberg breechblock, as well as the twin chargers are not fundamental differences, then "there were no fundamental differences."

    "Overall, the previous Bayan mount underwent a thorough overhaul. The main innovations were: the introduction of a ramming device (previously manual), the installation of more powerful turret drives, which required more space in the lower part of the mount, and the introduction of paired, counterbalanced loaders, which, in theory, doubled the speed of ammunition feed from the magazines to the fighting compartment***"

    Loading cycle of the 8" turret gun

    Opening the lock 2,50 sec
    Lowering the loading chute with the projectile to the loading position 6,25 s
    Sending the projectile with the ram and returning the ram 3,50 s
    Sending the 1nd half-charge and returning the ram 1,75 s
    Sending the 2nd half-charge and returning the ram 1,75 s
    Return of the chute 2,00 s
    Lock closing time 3,50 sec
    Total: 21,25 c

    As we can see, we still couldn’t reach the maximum rate of fire of 3 rounds/min.
    1. +4
      3 June 2026 07: 10
      Quote: AlexanderA
      The intermediate detonator of the Brink fuse contained only 45 grams (not 80 grams, 0,08 kg) of dry pyroxylin

      Well, two artillery officers thought that 78 g. 0,19 pounds
      Quote: AlexanderA
      The Bayan turrets had neither an electric vertical aiming drive nor loading mechanisms.

      The 8-inch deck mounts had none, especially not the 8-inch ones. And such a mount fired a single barrel at roughly the same rate as a twin-gun turret.
      Quote: AlexanderA
      and specifically for the Japanese fleet they had the following two advantages.

      I was especially touched by the part "specifically for the Japanese fleet"
      Quote: AlexanderA
      At long ranges, the turrets could fire salvos of artillery fire. A four-gun fire salvo provides a much better targeting system than a two-gun fire salvo.

      Are you sure the Japanese were using four-gun salvos for targeting? Considering they only developed central gunsight at Tsushima?
      Quote: AlexanderA
      If the mechanized ramming is in the range of vertical aiming angles -8+5

      Yeah... But you're not destined to finish reading the source?!
      Subsequently, during the acceptance trials of the French cruiser's artillery, its pneumatic rammers constantly irritated the acceptance committee that arrived from Russia with their unreliable design and slow action. [5Source: RGAVMF, f. 770, op. 1, d. 210, p. 10 5RGAVMF, f. 427, orn 1, d. 1821.] Upon the cruiser's arrival in the Baltic, they were immediately dismantled. True, even on the Pallada and Bayan, the mechanical rammers did not last long - soon the rammers were removed from the cruisers' turrets, since practical firing experience showed that manually raising the shell was faster and easier.

      https://libcat.ru/knigi/spravochnaya-literatura/enciklopedii/military-weapon/426595-13-sergej-vinogradov-krejsera-admiral-makarov-pallada-bayan.html
      1. +1
        4 June 2026 17: 42
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Well, two artillery officers thought that 78 g. 0,19 pounds

        Take a diagram of the Brink detonator with its dimensions and calculate the volume of dry pyroxylin in the booster (cylinder volume formula). Multiply the volume by the density and you get the mass of dry pyroxylin in the booster. If not, I'll do the calculations when I get back from vacation.

        8" deck mounts always outperformed 8" manually chambered turrets in maximum rate of fire per barrel. A manually chambered turret was, of course, inferior to a hydraulic/electrically chambered turret when firing at near-maximum elevation angles (at near-maximum ranges). Here I'm playing the role of Captain Obvious. However, you might think it's a bliss to implement powered aiming drives.
        I was especially touched by the part "specifically for the Japanese fleet"

        They had to fight the Japanese fleet, not some Spanish one. Their naval equipment had both specific advantages and specific disadvantages. Shells exploded in their barrels so frequently that they disabled far more guns on the Japanese ships than the enemy's gunfire. This was the specific weakness of the Japanese naval artillery at the time.

        When I return from vacation, I will look for information about the salvo firing of the main caliber of Japanese ships.
        Yeah... But you're not destined to finish reading the source?!

        So, did you notice that there were two types of rammers? And both, as they say, "failed," failing to provide the desired three rounds per minute. Now let's look at the 8" turrets of the Rurik and Andrei Pervozvanny, and see if they removed the rammers... And we continue to be amazed at how incorrigible the turrets on the Bayan were.

        "We will turn your shameful illness into a feat: we will send you into the paratroopers." (C)

        Perhaps you'd like to tell readers how shells and charges were loaded into the turrets of Japanese armored cruisers? Just for comparison.

        We can start right from the "Kasuga" that you acknowledged as a failure.

        https://www.gutenberg.org/files/74624/74624-h/74624-h.htm

        Fortunately, there is both a 10" tower and an 8" tower.

        Although the Kasuga's hydraulic turret rammers operated quickly, the Japanese had to artificially reduce the rate of fire during protracted battles (such as the Battles of Shantung and Tsushima). Due to the excessively high rate of fire, the barrels overheated, leading to the detonation of the highly sensitive explosive (shimoz) inside the barrel bore. For this reason, one of the Kasuga's aft 203mm guns was blown apart by its own shells during the Battle of Tsushima (on the Nissina, three guns were damaged as a result).

        You did such a good job of telling readers about their "premature" turrets, which, after reading your article, one might think were almost as good as the "Bayan" with its manual chambering and manual vertical aiming drive.
        1. +3
          4 June 2026 20: 03
          I thought you'd have the sense to end the discussion after your epic gaffe with the rammers. But there you go.
          Quote: AlexanderA
          Take the diagram of the Brink detonator with the dimensions indicated and calculate the volume for dry pyroxylin in the intermediate detonator

          Calculate. Then, as a competent person with a technical education, explain to an ignorant humanities student how you managed to fit 45 grams of dry pyroxylin with a true density of at least 1,65 g/cm³ into a cylinder approximately 3 cm in diameter and approximately 6,4 cm in height (hint: the volume is roughly 45 cubic meters).
          Ah! I get it. There was probably antimatter in the second block from the bottom. laughing
          Quote: AlexanderA
          A turret with manual gun elevation guidance was, of course, inferior to a turret with hydraulic/electric guidance when firing at elevation angles close to the maximum (at a range close to the maximum).

          Let's continue.
          A turret with manual shell loading will always lose to a turret with mechanical loading... Oh! But in reality, it turns out
          On the Pallada and Bayan, the mechanical rammers didn't last long - soon the rammers were removed from the cruisers' turrets, as practical firing experience showed that manually rammering the shell was faster and easier

          In short, Mr. Engineer, I'd like to point out that mechanization and power drives don't always increase the rate of fire. They only increase the rate of fire when the mechanism can operate faster than human hands. And this wasn't always the case, because the design of these power drives and mechanization systems hadn't yet been properly refined before the Russian Nuclear Forces. This is precisely why, for example, the navy rejected mechanical rammers.
          Quote: AlexanderA
          Here I play the role of Captain Obvious.

          You lost it. I'm being Captain Obvious here and saying this:)))))
          Quote: AlexanderA
          We had to fight with the Japanese fleet, and not with some Spanish one.

          Exactly. And before you start fantasizing about its advantages, you shouldn't do any harm to study how the Japanese navy fired. And why it's necessary to have four guns in a zeroing test, and under what conditions such zeroing can be accomplished.
          Then, you would probably know that the Japanese only used 8-inch guns for target practice when it was impossible to bring 6-inch guns into action. And the advantages of 4 guns versus 2 are revealed with completely different firing methods.
          Quote: AlexanderA
          Perhaps you would like to tell readers how shells and charges were loaded into the turrets of Japanese armored cruisers?

          In English-built cruisers - manually.
          Quote: AlexanderA
          Although the hydraulic rammers of the Kasuga turrets worked quickly, the practical rate of fire in protracted battles (such as the Battles of Shantung and Tsushima) had to be artificially reduced by the Japanese.

          Error in the source. At Tsushima, they had to reduce the rate of fire, but at Shantung, no one reduced it—it was reduced precisely based on the results of Shantung.
          And automatic rammers, as we see in the later example of Bayan No. 2, did not always provide an increase in firing performance.
          Quote: AlexanderA
          You did such a good job of telling readers about their "premature" turrets, which, after reading your article, one might think were almost as good as the "Bayan" with its manual chambering and manual vertical aiming drive.

          And most importantly - truthfully.
          1. -3
            10 June 2026 17: 56
            That's definitely true))) I've never read such true scientific nonsense))) by the way, author I have never heard of such a mechanical process as pressing, when from a volume of 1,5 g / cm / cubic meter they make even less than 1,2 g / cm / cubic meter?))) Blasting charges with a moisture content of 5-6% and a density of 1-1.28 g / cm 3 were pressed from wet (50%) pyroxylin under a pressure of 400-2000 kg / sq.m.
            1. +2
              10 June 2026 18: 13
              Quote: TermNachTER
              Blasting charges with a moisture content of 5-6% and a density of 1-1.28 g/cm3 were pressed from wet (50%) pyroxylin under a pressure of 400-2000 kg/m2.

              Nikolai, don't try to be clever—go look for the "Bayan" deck; it'll keep you busy for the next year. And guncotton isn't really your cup of tea. You didn't even realize we were talking about a detonator, which was equipped with dry guncotton, not wet.
              1. -3
                10 June 2026 18: 17
                So, show it on a proper drawing, and not on a piece of toilet paper, thankfully not used))) Is this an original drawing or from the latrine, just for fun?)))
          2. 0
            10 June 2026 19: 30
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Calculate. Then, as a competent person with a technical education, explain to an ignorant humanities student how you managed to fit 45 grams of dry pyroxylin with a true density of at least 1,65 g/cm³ into a cylinder approximately 3 cm in diameter and approximately 6,4 cm in height (hint: the volume is roughly 45 cubic meters).

            I did the math. Based on a well-known drawing that purports to be a blueprint. Indeed, the respected authors who claimed that the Brink detonator's booster contained approximately 45 grams of dry pyroxylin were mistaken.

            The two pellets that made up the fuse's intermediate detonator, one of which was a priming pellet with a through hole for the detonator cap, clearly contained much more than 45 grams of dry pyroxylin. Apparently, the 0,19 pounds (~78 grams) you mentioned.

            On the other hand, you have definitely overstated the pressing density of dry pyroxylin by indicating "minimum 1,65 g/cm3."

            The density of dry pressed pyroxylin (with a moisture content of 5–6%) used to make incendiary charges ranged from 1,0 to 1,28 g/cm³.

            Check it out.

            https://www.techinsider.ru/weapon/6039-zabytaya-vzryvchatka-vzryvnaya-initsiatsiya/

            "So-called drill blocks (56 g, 70 mm high) were also produced, the diameter of which matched the diameter of the hole drilled in the stone (30 mm). They were used for crushing stone and loosening frozen soil."

            Density 1,13 g/cm³

            "Italian sappers on the Soviet-German front used cylindrical checkers (weighing 30 g, 3 cm in diameter and 4 cm in length) made of dry pyroxylin, wrapped in paraffin paper."

            Density 1,06 g/cm³
            Let's continue.

            Let's not confuse the power drives for aiming the turrets and guns (the guns in them) and the power rammers. wink
            In general, Mr. Engineer, I would like to inform you that mechanization and power drives do not always increase the rate of fire.

            In towers? Only if the tower design was initially flawed. wink The Bayan turrets were unsuccessful. Attempts to install two types of powered rammers—pneumatic and mechanical, or, if I remember correctly, chain—in these turrets were unsuccessful. The post-Tsushima Bayan turrets, with these rammers, lost out in the technical rate of fire per 8" barrel to the twin-gun turrets of the Rurik II and Andrei Pervozvanny. And these turrets, in turn, lost out in the maximum technical rate of fire of 203 mm/50 to deck and casemate mounts. You won't deny that, will you? wink
            But this was not always the case, because the design of these very power drives and mechanizations before the RYaV had not yet been properly worked out.

            Which did NOT prevent the wise MTK, as they say, "without regaining consciousness", from introducing, first on the battleships of the Poltava type, and then on the cruisers of the Bogatyr type and the battleships of the Borodino type, 6" two-gun turrets of "rapid-fire artillery". wink
            I say this as Captain Obvious:)))))

            I haven't noticed that you've tried to refute my thesis in any way: "A turret with manual gun elevation guidance was, of course, inferior to a turret with hydraulic/electric guidance when firing at elevation angles close to the maximum (at a range close to the maximum)" wink

            By the way, did you know that the 8" guns on some Japanese armored cruisers had electric horizontal aiming drives?

            https://web.archive.org/web/20110822145140/http://base13.glasnet.ru/text/karjv/1.htm

            "These installations were equipped with manual guidance drives (the exception was the 8-inch guns on Japanese armored deck cruisers with an electric horizontal guidance drive)."
            Exactly. And before you start fantasizing about its advantages, you shouldn't do any harm to study how the Japanese navy fired. And why it's necessary to have four guns in a zeroing test, and under what conditions such zeroing can be accomplished.

            You did your research. And what, you didn't find any cases of Japanese volley fire during the Russo-Japanese battles? wink
            Then, you would probably know that the Japanese only used 8-inch guns for targeting when it was impossible to get 6-inch guns involved.

            What did I write? "At long range artillery fire, the turrets could fire salvos." What do you think I meant by long range artillery fire for the Japanese? wink

            https://topwar.ru/186620-o-strelbe-na-dalnie-distancii-v-period-russko-japonskoj-vojny.html

            "At the start of the battle, the Asama and Iwate fired from considerable distances; the Iwate even broke off fire at 2:27 a.m. due to the distance. I don't rule out that the distances could have been less than 40 kb, but the 8-inch guns were used for target practice.
            So, around this time, before the Asama went out of action, it was able to inflict significant damage on the Navarin with 8-inch shells: it caused a large fire (according to Japanese data) and flooding (according to ours)." (C) Dear Alexey
            And the advantages of 4 guns versus 2 are revealed with completely different shooting techniques.

            Write in more detail under what conditions when firing an artillery ship at a sea target during salvo sighting, a four-gun salvo did not have advantages over a two-gun salvo. wink
            In English-built cruisers - manually.

            I asked you to start the story with "Kasuga", which you considered unsuccessful.
            And most importantly - truthfully.

            It would be accurate to say that the 152mm twin-gun turrets on Russian ships during the Russo-Japanese War were "premature." But what about the 203mm turrets on Japanese cruisers? Despite a number of serious technical shortcomings, especially on British-built cruisers, they performed quite well in battle, both in the Korea Strait and at Tsushima, and were therefore quite timely.
            1. +2
              10 June 2026 20: 46
              Quote: AlexanderA
              In towers? Only if the tower design was initially flawed.

              The problem is that the English Asamoids had even worse turrets, and the Italians were no better.
              Quote: AlexanderA
              The post-Tsushima Bayan turrets, with these rammers, lost out in terms of the technical rate of fire per 8" barrel to the twin turrets of the Rurik II and Andrei Pervozvanny. And these turrets, in turn, lost out in terms of the maximum technical rate of fire of 203 mm/50 to deck and casemate mounts. You won't deny that, will you?

              I won't, it's all true. But why did you decide that the deck/casemate 8-inch/50mm cannon is similar in rate of fire to the 8-inch/45mm cannon? That's a very bold assumption.
              Quote: AlexanderA
              Density 1,06 g/cm³

              There is an Olga Tonina, she published data from a technical encyclopedia from 1927-34.
              https://samlib.ru/t/tonina_o_i/te_piroksilin.shtml
              And it's written there
              The true density of P. fluctuates between 1,65 and 1.71 depending on the nitrogen content and the type of fiber taken for nitration.
              However, there is indeed a lot of data on the density of dry pyroxylin.
              Quote: AlexanderA
              Which did NOT prevent the wise MTK, as they say, "without regaining consciousness", from introducing, first on the battleships of the Poltava type, and then on the cruisers of the Bogatyr type and the battleships of the Borodino type, 6" two-gun turrets of "rapid-fire artillery".

              They were manually loaded, just like the deck-mounted guns. And, being twin-gun, they also lacked the rate of fire of deck-mounted guns.
              Quote: AlexanderA
              I haven't noticed that you've tried to refute my thesis in any way: "A turret with manual gun elevation guidance was, of course, inferior to a turret with hydraulic/electric guidance when firing at elevation angles close to the maximum (at a range close to the maximum)"

              So it hasn't been proven. You're assuming that because there's mechanization, it must be better. But I showed you, using the rammer as an example, that mechanized doesn't mean faster than manual. What other proof do you need? You haven't provided any; for you, it's just a theoretical truth, and that's it.
              Quote: AlexanderA
              "At the beginning of the battle, the Asama and Iwate fired from considerable distances; the Iwate even broke off fire at 2:27 a.m. due to the long range. I don't rule out that the ranges could have been less than 40 kab, but the sighting in began with the 8-inch guns."

              Of course. But who told you it was a salvo sighting, and with four guns at that? :)))) That's the first point, and secondly, due to the speed of sighting, a two-gun salvo would most likely have an advantage over a four-gun salvo.
              Quote: AlexanderA
              Write in more detail under what conditions when firing an artillery ship at a sea target during salvo sighting, a four-gun salvo did not have advantages over a two-gun salvo.

              Speed. Sighting volleys must be fired at a certain speed; for such sighting to be meaningful, there should be no more than a minute between volleys. Well, maybe a little over, a minute and a half—that's plenty.
              Quote: AlexanderA
              I asked you to start the story with "Kasuga", which you considered unsuccessful.

              And I answered
              Quote: AlexanderA
              And what about the 203 mm turrets on Japanese cruisers - despite a number of serious technical shortcomings, especially on British-built cruisers, they performed quite well in battles,

              Yes. But no better than Bayan's single-gun turrets.
              1. -1
                11 June 2026 16: 12
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                The problem is that the English Asamoids had even worse turrets, and the Italians were no better.

                The Asamoids' turrets were more than up to the conditions of the hours-long artillery battles of the Russo-Japanese War, with the probable or actual continuation of the fighting the following day, as at Tsushima. In actual combat, these turrets didn't lose their roofs, as some Russian battleships did, didn't burn out from fires, didn't fail from flooding, didn't jam even from large-caliber enemy shells, and demonstrated high repairability. The main problem with these turrets, as with all Japanese naval artillery, was the frequent explosions of shells right in the gun barrels. But this wasn't a problem with the turrets, but with their ammunition supply. Moreover, the technical improvements to these turrets on non-British-built ships, with the introduction of normal magazine feed, which reduced the overall ammunition load, and the transition from fire-safe hydraulic to electric laying drives as primary turrets, rather undermined their suitability for the artillery battles of the Russo-Japanese War. Thus, the Asamoids' turrets proved particularly timely for the Russo-Japanese War. The technically best turrets of that war turned out to be the Nisshin and Kasuga turrets, which allowed for loading at a different angle than a fixed one. The 10" turret of the Kasuga cruiser was simply the best in terms of the firing results of its gun, and the 8" turrets on the Nisshin demonstrated high survivability in the Battle of Tsushima. Although only one gun remained in the Nisshin's turrets by the second day of battle, when needed, it opened fire on the battleship Imperator Nikolai I. And within half an hour that evening, the Iwate and Yakumo had fired at the coastal defense battleship Admiral Ushakov from a distance with their "unfortunate" 8" turrets.
                But why did you decide that the deck/casemate 8-inch/50 is similar in rate of fire to the 8-inch/45? That's a very bold assumption.

                Why did you assume that's my decision? After all, in the case of "Bayans," it was done in the style of "good enough."

                "When the ships entered service, they received 8" guns with single-pass OSZ (Rosenberg) breechblocks, which were subsequently planned to be replaced with the same guns, but with breechblocks of the new OSZ system, created according to the Vickers (Whelin) breechblock type with step rifling**. Due to strict weight savings of the entire installation, the drive for opening the breechblock (opening time 5 s) was provided only by hand."

                "According to the initial technical specifications of JSC MTK, in the single-gun mounts of the Pallada and Bayan, as in those previously developed by Metallichesky
                the factory for the Andrei Pervozvanny and Emperor Paul I twin-gun 8”/50 mounts, the opening and closing of the breech was to be done by an electric drive, but it was stipulated that if “the factory, when designing [single-gun] turret mounts, exceeds the above-mentioned turret weights, then
                We will have to accept that the opening and closing of the shutter will have to be done manually only, and that the lifting mechanism will also have to be operated only manually”**. And that is what happened in the end."

                By the way, I'll correct myself; I looked it up in Shirokorad's encyclopedia. He wrote that in the twin 203mm turrets, "From March to June 1913, MZ completely overhauled the loading systems—new upper loading devices were installed, automatic loading posts were removed, and mechanical rams were dismantled. Thus, loading was now done manually. This was due to the fact that the loading system installed according to the design was unreliable, and at elevation angles from -3 to +3 degrees, the rate of fire did not exceed 3 rounds per minute."

                Can we conclude that the 203mm/50mm turrets on the RIF were also "out of date"? However, in the era of the all-big-gun-ship, they were indeed out of date. Not in the sense of "ahead of their time," but rather, conceptually obsolete, like all medium- and intermediate-caliber artillery on armored ships commissioned after the Russo-Japanese War.
                And it says there that the true density of P. fluctuates between 1,65 and 1.71 depending on the nitrogen content and the type of fiber taken for nitration.

                The density of pyroxylin powder grains (tubes, plates, strips) and the density of dry pyroxylin powder cartridges should not be equated. They are different. Powder grains (tubes, plates, strips) should burn without detonation. Dry pyroxylin powder cartridges should detonate reliably when fired from a blasting cap.

                Moreover, you adopted dry pyroxylin for the fuse checkers, which has a density higher than that of the experimental "slonit" obtained after the Russo-Japanese War.
                So it's not proven. You're assuming that because there's mechanization, it must be better.

                Mechanization refined to perfection. Mechanized ramming in 203mm turrets was first implemented on battleships of the Indiana class, among others, and cruisers like the New York, Brooklyn, and Charleston. Well, the initial rate of fire for 203mm guns didn't exceed 0,5-0,7 rounds per minute. Then, in the early 1900s, both the technology and crew skills were refined, and the actual rate of fire was raised to 2-2,8 rounds per minute per gun. Take the armored cruiser New York: "During annual naval exercises in 1905, one of the gun crews fired 2,8 rounds per minute and managed to hit seven targets in 2,5 minutes." Rammers, by the way, were replaced with hydraulic ones, powered by electricity. Is it okay that I illustrate not “speculatively”, but “with living examples”?
                And if you work in the style of "this will do", then later in the tower there are wooden rams for manual loading.
                They were manually loaded, just like the deck-mounted guns. And, being twin-gun, they also lacked the rate of fire of deck-mounted guns.

                Which doesn't stop some historians from claiming that the Tsarevich, as a prototype for a series of battleships, was better than the Retvizan. Just kidding.
                Of course. But who told you it was a salvo test, and with four guns at that? :))))

                The problems should be addressed sequentially. First, the interviewee must agree that the Japanese already practiced salvo sighting during the Russo-Japanese War. Then we'll examine up to how many guns per salvo the Japanese used in sighting salvos. And then we'll discuss what technical issues could prevent the use of turreted 8" guns for sighting in not only two-gun salvos but also four-gun salvos at ranges where the Japanese 6" guns were insufficient (for example, the Iwate and Yakumo are starting to fire at the Admiral Ushakov).
                Speed. Sighting volleys must be fired at a certain speed; for such sighting to be meaningful, there should be no more than a minute between volleys.

                We remember, of course, that the flight time of a Japanese shell to a distance of 70 cable lengths is almost half a minute? And we remember the maximum technical rate of fire attributed to the Amamoids' turrets?
                And I answered

                Remind me, you wrote that the Kasuga turrets were the most technically advanced in that war?
                Yes. But no better than Bayan's single-gun turrets.

                I'll answer with a quote from the film "Only Old Men Are Going to Battle":

                "- What do you say about the fight, Romeo?
                - I AM?
                - Yes.
                - I saw the battle... I saw everything... Crosses... crosses... crosses, crosses!
                - Well, did you shoot yourself?
                "But what about it? Every single bullet, every single one! But it's all gone wrong…"
                1. +2
                  11 June 2026 17: 02
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  Why did you decide that I decided so?

                  Because otherwise your argument makes no sense.
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  It is not worth equating the density of grains (tubes, plates, tapes) of pyroxylin powders and the density of dry pyroxylin ignition charges.

                  I won't even ask what the grains have to do with it. Don't you know what "true density" means?
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  The same armored cruiser "New York": "During the annual naval exercises in 1905, one of the gun crews fired 2,8 shots per minute and was able to hit seven times in 2,5 minutes."

                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  Is it okay that I illustrate not “speculatively”, but “with living examples”?

                  Never mind, your example isn't real, it's dead. Because in a real combat situation, during the three-hour (!) battle at Santiago de Cuba, the Brooklyn, with its "uber-rapid-fire" 8-inch artillery, fully automated and mechanized, and six guns in a broadside, expended... How much? How much? :)))) You don't know...
                  Okay, I won't play the secret of the boarded-up attic. Brooklyn fired 100 8-inch shells. So, in terms of rate of fire, the American eight-gun trough was soundly outclassed by Russia's Gromoboi, let alone the Japanese cruisers.
                  But you keep describing its technical perfection, it’s very enticing:)))))
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  And if you work in the style of "this will do",

                  That gives us a combat rate of fire of 28 shells in 40 minutes from two guns. And that's it – it'll do.
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  The tasks should be solved sequentially. First, the interlocutor must agree that the Japanese already practiced salvo firing during the Russo-Japanese War.

                  You see, even this is a very controversial thesis:))))
                  Quote: AlexanderA

                  We remember, of course, that the flight time of a Japanese projectile over a distance of 70 cables is almost half a minute?

                  But we remember that BrKr didn’t fire at 70 cable lengths?
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  Remind me, you wrote that the Kasuga turrets were the most technically advanced in that war?

                  Sorry, but writing nonsense is not my style.
                  1. 0
                    12 June 2026 00: 16
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Because otherwise your argument makes no sense.

                    My argument is that the Bayan was poorly designed, and no one really cared. "Luxury in the squadron" (C). It also didn't matter when they ordered the construction of the lead "armored reconnaissance aircraft" in France. It also didn't matter when they decided to replicate it in 1904. Even the outdated Rosenberg breech block of the limited-production 203mm/45 Brink, modeled on the more advanced Vickers gun breech block, was in no hurry to redesign. What else is there to argue about?

                    They demanded a rate of fire of three rounds per minute in a turret, "in line with the latest trends," and to achieve this, they demanded the development and installation of pneumatic/mechanical rams. Three rounds per minute wasn't achieved. Those rams were removed and manual ramming was adopted.

                    "That'll do" (C)
                    I won't even ask what the grains have to do with it. Don't you know what "true density" means?

                    I simply suggested that you not confuse the density of pyroxylin powder grains with the density of dry pyroxylin powder cartridges. You simply assumed a density higher for the cartridges than that of "Slonit," an experimental pyroxylin explosive in which the actual density of the pyroxylin cartridges was increased to the maximum possible limit at the time.

                    Actual density is the ratio of the weight of the explosive to the volume it occupies, taking into account the complete absence of air spaces in this volume.

                    I don't know what the true density of explosives is. Could you quote me?
                    Never mind, your example isn't real, it's dead. Because in a real combat situation, during the three-hour (!) battle at Santiago de Cuba, the Brooklyn, with its "uber-rapid-fire" 8-inch artillery, fully automated and mechanized, and six guns in a broadside, expended... How much?

                    Excuse me, was 1898 before 1905 or after?

                    I wrote to you about how the US worked at the beginning of the 20th century to increase the rate of fire of their rapidly obsolete 203 mm/35 guns in turrets and what real results they had already achieved by 1905.

                    What are you telling me, "This is a dead example"? Seriously?

                    I'm afraid with this approach it will remain a mystery to you why we lost the war of "monkeys with the hobos" (C) Dragomirov

                    Everything was going great. And then bam, the Tsushima disaster.
                    You see, even this is a very controversial thesis:))))

                    Even so? Well, that's clear.

                    "The goals are clear, the tasks are defined. Get to work, comrades!" (C) wink
                    But we remember that BrKr didn’t fire at 70 cable lengths?

                    We remember that Nissin and Kasuga fired.

                    https://rgavmf.ru/biblioteka/boevaya-letopis-russkogo-flota/russko-yaponskaya-voyna-deystviya-port-arturskoy-eskadry-i-oborona-port-artura

                    "12:20 pm. When the Japanese main forces, moving to intersect the course of the Russian squadron, revealed their intention to envelop the head of its wake column, Vitgeft, avoiding combat, changed course 4 points to port, almost on a counter-course with the enemy, located at a distance of 75-80 cables. At this moment, the second-from-the-last cruiser, the Nissin, opened fire, supported by the remaining Japanese ships."
                    Sorry, but writing nonsense is not my style.

                    Apparently, you still don't know why the Nissin and Kasuga turrets could fire at 70 cable lengths and beyond. I'll give you a hint. Because the 10" gun in the Kasuga turret had a maximum elevation angle of 35 degrees. And the 8" guns in the Nissin and Kasuga turrets had a maximum elevation angle of 25 degrees.
                    1. +3
                      12 June 2026 08: 41
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      My argument is that

                      to bombard me with comments that I'll get tired of answering:)))
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      I don't know what the true density of explosives is.

                      True density is the mass of a unit volume of a material in an absolutely dense state (without pores)
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      Excuse me, was 1898 before 1905 or after?

                      Alexandra, according to your navveps, the rate of fire in the worst case was one shot every two minutes. Per gun. Per ONE. So we're talking about a deck-mounted mount.
                      In a real combat situation, Brooklyn's firing side (6 guns) expended 100 shells in 3,5 hours, that is, one shot every 12,6 minutes.
                      Azuma, which had a normal feed into the turrets during manual loading, had a similar figure of 4,3 minutes of firing time.
                      Is everything clear to you? The American turret before 1900 was a complete and utter slowpoke. And to match the combat rate of fire of a normal turret, loaded manually, it would have had to increase it by a factor of three.
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      "At the annual naval exercises in 1905, one gun crew fired 2,8 rounds per minute and was able to hit seven targets in 2,5 minutes."

                      Yes. And who told you it was a TOWER gun that fired? The New York had six 8-inch guns, two of which were in deck mounts.
                      In fact, everything is written correctly on the navveps - the American 8"/35 is an analogue of our 8-inch/35, and they, the deck ones, fired 0,67 rounds/min (Sventorzhetsky's report).
                      But you have it all wrong, since you are confusing the rate of fire of deck and turret installations.
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      At this moment, the second-from-last cruiser, Nissin, opened fire, supported by the rest of the Japanese ships."

                      Yeah... But the point is, such distances were a "prelude" (and not always—with the VOK, the distances were shorter). They might fire a little at 70 kbt when they were apart, and if they did open fire, it was for a very short period of time. These are completely atypical situations; in the vast majority of battles, the distance was much shorter.
                      1. +1
                        13 June 2026 19: 23
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        True density is the mass of a unit volume of a material in an absolutely dense state (without pores)

                        The term "true density" is used in relation to explosives. The concepts are synonymous, but that's precisely what the vocabulary of the subject area dictates.

                        https://djvu.online/file/l52x9iI0PCzuM

                        Sukharevsky M.Ya. Sukharevsky, Explosives and blasting operations: a reference guide for engineers, technicians and students Moscow: State Technical Publishing House, 1923

                        Page 319
                        "To prepare blasting pyroxylin checkers, pyroxylin pulp is pressed in a hydraulic press under a pressure of about 600 atmospheres."
                        Стр. 321
                        "Its actual specific gravity is 1,65, and the wet weight obtained by pressing under a pressure of 1600 kgf per 1 sq. cm is 1,25. Depending on the degree of pressing, the specific gravity varies from 1,00 to 1,40).
                        The less the pyroxylin is compressed, the more water it can absorb; for example, pyroxylin compressed to a specific gravity of 1,15 can absorb up to 30% water, while one with a density of 1.4 cannot absorb more than 20% moisture. When exposed to open air, wet pyroxylin gradually loses water until its moisture content finally reaches 2%... In a humid atmosphere, pyroxylin can absorb up to 5% water and even more, which is why it must be considered to a certain extent hygroscopic."
                        Pp. 323
                        "A cylindrical pyroxylin block is called a drill block. A drill block has a diameter of 30 mm, a height of 80 mm, and weighs about 50 grams.
                        If these checkers are to serve as ignition devices, a cylindrical hole with a diameter of 8,3 mm for the primer is left in them during fabrication or drilled when needed.
                        Стр. 324
                        "A dry pyroxylin block, when immersed in water, becomes saturated with it to capacity in 15-20 minutes.*"
                        *) After 1 minute of lying in water, it absorbs 5-8% of water, after 5 minutes 15-18%, after 1/3 - 1/2 hour - 25-30% of water."

                        As you understand, only dry pyroxylin plugs were used as ignition plugs. And the density of such plugs was closer to 1,0 (see the characteristics of the drill plug) than 1,4 g/cm³.
                        According to your navveps, the rate of fire in the worst case was 1 shot every 2 minutes... In a real combat situation, Brooklyn's firing side (6 guns) expended 100 shells in 3,5 hours, that is, one shot every 12,6 minutes.

                        NavWeaps isn't mine. We're talking about the maximum practical rate of fire (i.e., rate of fire with aiming corrections) achieved during exercises or combat, right? Dividing the total battle time by the number of shells fired and the number of guns doesn't actually yield the maximum practical rate of fire. So, what was written about the 8"/35 Mark 3 (model 1889) on the NavWeaps website?

                        In 1897 the 8"/35 (20.3 cm) gun was timed at one shot every 120 seconds (2 minutes). This was greatly improved by more careful loading practices and better training so that by a decade later a rate of 30 seconds or less was achieved. For example, USS New York as commissioned in 1893 was timed at one round every 77 seconds. At the annual fleet exercise in 1905, one of her gun crews fired 2.8 rounds per minute and was able to score seven hits in 2.5 minutes.

                        That is, by the time of the Battle of Tsushima, the Americans had increased the maximum practical rate of fire of their outdated 8"/35 guns of the 1889 model to 2,8 rounds per minute on their first full-fledged armored cruiser, the New York, which was commissioned, mind you, in 1893, two years earlier than the domestic Rurik.

                        Such a result, both in terms of maximum rate of fire and, incidentally, in terms of accuracy of fire, could only have been achieved through the high-quality work of all those interested in correcting the errors identified in the battles of the Spanish-American War, which was victorious for the Americans.

                        It can be said that the technical factor – the state and level of development of technical means of combat – initially has a decisive influence on the nature of war at sea.

                        And here the Americans sought to be the first to introduce the most advanced technical means of combat and were extremely persistent in bringing these means of combat to a working state.

                        At the same time, for almost the entire 20th century, the US Navy persistently adopted the most advanced foreign practices—including British ones. I'm talking, for example, about the continuous-aim firing method developed by Percy Scott.
                        The American tower before 1900 is a complete and utter slowpoke.

                        We, in relation to the realities of the Russo-Japanese War, are interested in what results the Americans achieved while this war was going on, aren't we?
                        Yes. And who told you it was a TOWER gun that fired? The New York had six 8-inch guns, two of which were in deck mounts.

                        I will definitely research this issue further.) In the meantime, I would like to clarify whether you have ever encountered a question similar to this one in the Russian literature of that time:

                        "Are we equipped with the best material and using the best methods that can be used for action?"

                        "Are we armed with the best equipment and using the best methods that can be applied in combat?"
                        Yeah...But the point is that such distances were a "prelude"

                        You probably meant to say that such distances weren't the ranges at which ships engaged in a decisive artillery battle? But the hits were made based on the Nisshin's targeting during that brief "prelude."

                        "12.15 - 12.22. The armored cruiser Nissin was the first of the Japanese ships to complete the turn to the ONO course. The 1st battle detachment of the Japanese fleet began to intersect the course of the Russian squadron and from a distance of up to 90 kb opened fire on the battleship Tsarevich. The first Japanese
                        The high-explosive shell fell short by 3 kb, the second one - with the same overshoot. A Japanese 12" high-explosive shell from a distance of about 70 kb hit the left side of the battleship Tsarevich under the stern turret of the SK, penetrated the bulwark, hit the deck and exploded near the armor
                        submitted tower pipe.

                        12:22 - 12:25. The ships of the 1st battle detachment of the Japanese fleet crossed the Russian course. After the second Japanese fall, the battleship Tsarevich fired a sighting shot from her 12" gun.
                        guns of the forward main battery turret. The first shot from the Tsarevich fell precisely on target, missing the target by 1 kilometer; the second hit also missed the target.
                        E.V. Polomoshnov

                        https://tsushima.su/RU/libru/i/Page_7/page_18/page_19/Page_30/emelin-flagman/

                        "Literally 5 minutes after the start of the battle, when the distance had decreased to approximately 65 cables, the commander of the Russian squadron, Rear Admiral V.K. Vitgeft, ordered a turn to the left under the enemy's stern. During this relatively short period of time, the Japanese demonstrated excellent long-range shooting, immediately engaging the approaching Russian flagship in a "fork". The first enemy shell fell short by 3 cables, the second overshot by the same amount, the third exploded well, after which confident fire was opened for effect. Almost immediately, a 305-mm shell hit under the left aft turret of the 152-mm guns and exploded in the admiral's dining room (see diagram, item No. 3). Fortunately, the armor of the feed pipe withstood this test, and the turret continued to operate. A hole was formed in the side of the ship, running horizontally from 102 to 106 frames (two of them were broken) and along The vertical line from the spar deck to the turret's guardrail ("casing") was damaged. Three people were injured by shrapnel. The small fire was immediately extinguished.

                        While turning left, a large-caliber shell (203 or 305 mm) struck the side near the starboard forward anchor (see diagram, item no. 14) and, exploding immediately upon penetrating the plating, crushed the 10th frame and made a hole 0,75 x 0,75 m and 0,9 m deep (the total destruction volume, according to the ship's officers, was 0,6 m3). The anchor was thrown overboard by the force of the explosion. No one was injured, since the crew of the 75 mm gun located in close proximity (as well as all other unprotected minor guns) had been sheltered in advance behind armor. Immediately after the end of the battle, the hole was temporarily patched with bunks.


                        They hit twice in the first five minutes. Judging by the size of the second hole, they hit twice with an 8" shell.
                    2. +2
                      12 June 2026 08: 41
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      My argument is that

                      to bombard me with comments that I'll get tired of answering:)))
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      I don't know what the true density of explosives is.

                      True density is the mass of a unit volume of a material in an absolutely dense state (without pores)
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      Excuse me, was 1898 before 1905 or after?

                      Alexandra, according to your navveps, the rate of fire in the worst case was one shot every two minutes. Per gun. Per ONE. So we're talking about a deck-mounted mount.
                      In a real combat situation, Brooklyn's firing side (6 guns) expended 100 shells in 3,5 hours, that is, one shot every 12,6 minutes.
                      Azuma, which had a normal feed into the turrets during manual loading, had a similar figure of 4,3 minutes of firing time.
                      Is everything clear to you? The American turret before 1900 was a complete and utter slowpoke. And to match the combat rate of fire of a normal turret, loaded manually, it would have had to increase it by a factor of three.
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      "At the annual naval exercises in 1905, one gun crew fired 2,8 rounds per minute and was able to hit seven targets in 2,5 minutes."

                      Yes. And who told you it was a TOWER gun that fired? The New York had six 8-inch guns, two of which were in deck mounts.
                      In fact, everything is written correctly on the navveps - the American 8"/35 is an analogue of our 8-inch/35, and they, the deck ones, fired 0,67 rounds/min (Sventorzhetsky's report).
                      But you have it all wrong, since you are confusing the rate of fire of deck and turret installations.
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      At this moment, the second-from-last cruiser, Nissin, opened fire, supported by the rest of the Japanese ships."

                      Yeah... But the point is, such distances were a "prelude" (and not always—with the VOK, the distances were shorter). They might fire a little at 70 kbt when they were apart, and if they did open fire, it was for a very short period of time. These are completely atypical situations; in the vast majority of battles, the distance was much shorter.
                2. 0
                  9 July 2026 22: 56
                  Dukelsky, "History of tower installations 1886-1917." 1931 edition.
                  Available online.
                  A comprehensive overview of all hydraulic and electrical turret installations of the Russian fleet up to and including World War I, as well as the design of gun mounts and, in part, the breechblocks of naval guns.
    2. +3
      3 June 2026 20: 23
      Electric and hydraulic traverse and elevation drives didn't make the gunner's job any easier during the Russo-Japanese War. They allowed for quicker barrel traverses, or for the turret to rotate 10 degrees to the left when changing targets. But the actual aiming was done manually. It was only later, with the invention of the Jeni clutch, that it became possible to use turret drives for aiming. But the gunners of Asama or Izumo derive no benefit from these drives.
      1. +2
        4 June 2026 17: 52
        1. You spoke strongly about the standard (and not in case of a breakdown of the turret power drives) manual aiming.
        2. The Jenny clutches, which ensure smooth horizontal guidance, never appeared in the Bayan turret's horizontal guidance drives. Five electric drive speeds and "spin as you please."
    3. 0
      9 July 2026 22: 43
      Dukelsky, "History of tower installations 1886-1917." 1931 edition.
      Available online.
      A comprehensive overview of all hydraulic and electrical turret installations of the Russian fleet up to and including World War I, as well as gun mount designs and a little about breechblocks, mechanical sights, etc.
  19. +1
    3 June 2026 09: 30
    A slightly off-topic question for the author: have you come across any information on the actual rate of fire of the Admiral Nakhimov's 8-inch guns? Perhaps the spacious barbettes could fire more frequently than the cramped turrets?
    1. +1
      3 June 2026 10: 42
      Quote: uber
      Have you come across any information about the actual rate of fire of the Admiral Nakhimov's 8-inch guns?

      Unfortunately, no. I searched but couldn't find it.
  20. +4
    3 June 2026 14: 28
    Quote: Saxahorse
    Overall, I tend to side with the critics of Bayan's project. The ship is useless and of dubious purpose. An armored reconnaissance vessel is something like an armored submarine, and it's unclear why.

    Yes, so that the "dogs" don't feel safe,,,
    1. -3
      4 June 2026 14: 00
      For some reason, this didn't affect the dogs' actions at all. They weren't exactly bossing around the outer roadstead, but they felt quite at ease there.
      1. +2
        4 June 2026 21: 26
        Really??? The death of the "Terrible" - four "doggies", "Asama" and "Tokiwa"... For one "Bayan"??? Isn't that an indicator of effectiveness???
        1. +5
          5 June 2026 10: 34
          Quote: Ragnar
          Isn't this an indicator of effectiveness???

          No. This is a testament to Bayan's inadequacy. They only sent six cruisers against him. If they'd been smarter, they would have built Izmails straight away.
          1. +1
            5 June 2026 15: 17
            Is this some kind of joke??? Have you ever gone out at least once???
            1. +1
              5 June 2026 16: 12
              Quote: Ragnar
              Is this a joke???

              Yes winked
        2. -1
          5 June 2026 12: 57
          So where did the battle take place? The Bayan approached the Terrible, or rather, what remained of it, lowered a boat, and picked up five men. As soon as the Japanese began firing, the Bayan sped toward Artur at top speed. Any sufficiently fast ship could have accomplished this task.
          1. 0
            5 June 2026 13: 49
            "Novik" most likely "dogs" would have driven away even without "Asam"...???
            1. 0
              5 June 2026 17: 07
              Well, the Novik is still a bit weak against the "dogs." The fight at Korsakov clearly demonstrated that. However, the Novik could quickly arrive, pick up the survivors, and escape just as quickly.
          2. 0
            5 June 2026 16: 11
            Any sufficiently fast ship could handle this task.

            Askold could have saved everyone—it's lighter, would have picked up speed faster and been more agile, would have arrived at the scene of the Strashny's death sooner, and would have escaped the fire sooner, again due to its greater speed and smaller displacement. And it's 2,5 million cheaper.
            1. 0
              5 June 2026 16: 21
              And??? Why didn't you come out and save me???
              1. -2
                6 June 2026 06: 03
                Quote: Ragnar
                And??? Why didn't you come out and save me???

                Because, instead of a second Askold, they built a useless, slow-moving and expensive Bayan.
                1. +1
                  6 June 2026 11: 29
                  What does this "second Askold" have to do with it? Why didn't the first one jump out?
                  1. -1
                    6 June 2026 11: 45
                    Well, the first one is clear; Askold was on duty last night. Although the way Bayan was on duty also raises questions. The question of whether something useful could have been built instead of Bayan is perfectly logical, but it's about 120 years too late.
                    1. -1
                      6 June 2026 12: 40
                      And??? What??? A night shift on the outer roadstead isn't the same as dashing to Vladik and back...
                      1. +4
                        6 June 2026 14: 07
                        Quote: Ragnar
                        And what???

                        Yes, that's it. :)))) To get a ship going at full speed in those days, all its boilers had to be "hot," meaning the fire had to be kept burning in all of them. And that was a drain on its resources if it was constantly being kept burning. That's why a cruiser was assigned to patrol duty, with all its boilers lit. When the cruiser wasn't on patrol duty, only a few boilers were kept burning for general ship needs.
                        In general, Askold was not in good shape, so he could not quickly come to the aid of the "Terrible"
                      2. +1
                        6 June 2026 14: 25
                        Well, a ship not on duty could take a few boilers out of service for cleaning, dismantle refrigerators or a car, or something else. Consequently, it couldn't quickly get to sea. However, the Bayan's duty was also a bit odd: it was anchored in the Western Basin, albeit near the exit. By the time it crawled out to the outer roadstead, any need for it had passed; the Terrible had already been sunk. Although, as Bubnov wrote, in addition to the commander's order, there was also his conversation with Viren that he would cover the destroyers' retreat in the morning, should the need arise. The need did arise, but by the time the Bayan set out, it had already passed.
            2. 0
              5 June 2026 17: 09
              This question torments me. Why didn't they send Askold or Novik to help "The Terrible"? "Bayan" isn't exactly the worst option in this situation, but it's not the best either.
              1. 0
                5 June 2026 17: 42
                Quote: TermNachTER
                I'm tormented by this question myself. Why weren't Askold or Novik sent to help "The Terrible"?

                Well, what can you say? Continue to suffer, since reading the description of these events is an impossible task for you.
                Actually, judging by your desire to constantly argue with me, you enjoy torment...
                1. -2
                  5 June 2026 18: 41
                  Did anyone ask you if you are our reasonable one?)))
                  1. 0
                    5 June 2026 18: 52
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    Did anyone ask you if you are our reasonable one?)))

                    Why do I need your questions?:))) I can comment on your remarks without them.
                    1. 0
                      5 June 2026 21: 31
                      There's a thread on the Tsushima forums dedicated to the sinking of the "Terrible." About 20 competent people have been poring over the situation and haven't been able to come to a definitive conclusion. I printed out an A3-sized image of the coastline from Artur to Talienwan and tried to draw maneuvering diagrams, detection ranges, and other local conditions myself. I couldn't get it right; the source data was too contradictory. But you've read three official documents and you understand everything. I've written reports and memos myself after unsuccessful deployments, and I know how to write them so as not to offend anyone and avoid being held responsible.
                      1. 0
                        5 June 2026 21: 37
                        P.S. And when you start reading the reports of Japanese commanders, you completely lose track of what the Russians were writing about.
                      2. +4
                        6 June 2026 07: 44
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        There's a thread on the Tsushima forums dedicated to the death of the "Terrible." About 20 knowledgeable people have been poring over the situation and haven't been able to reach a definitive conclusion.

                        But lying is not good:))))
                        The Tsushima thread—yes, I read it back then. There was never any discussion of "Askold" being sent instead of "Bayan."
                        For one simple reason: Makarov couldn't possibly have sent the Askold instead of the Bayan, because the Askold had been on duty the previous day. When a cruiser is on duty, it's under steam; when it's off duty, it's not. Basically, the Askold simply wasn't ready for immediate deployment, while the Bayan was. Everyone on Tsushima knows this. You don't. That's why you're hiding behind this discussion, hoping no one read it.
                      3. -2
                        6 June 2026 11: 38
                        It's enough that I read it. And there are two threads dedicated to the "Bayan," the first on the old forum. And you're twisting my words again. Where did I say they should have sent the "Askold"? I said any fast ship. And by the time the "Bayan" weighed anchor and sailed to the outer roads, there was no point at all. By that time, the "Strashny" had already sunk. Risking a cruiser and 600 sailors to save five is absurd.
                      4. 0
                        6 June 2026 11: 49
                        P.S. To prevent accusations of deception, I wrote: "They could have sent the Askold or the Novik - that is, any sufficiently fast ship."
                      5. +1
                        6 June 2026 12: 05
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And you're twisting my words again. Where did I say you should have sent the Askold? I said any fast ship

                        I see you're completely overcome with sclerosis.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I'm tormented by this question myself. Why weren't Askold or Novik sent to help "The Terrible"?
                      6. -1
                        6 June 2026 14: 15
                        When will we learn to read?))) Anticipating your petty quibbles, I clarified)))
                      7. +1
                        6 June 2026 14: 30
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I clarified

                        What did you clarify? :)))) That the answer to the question that was tormenting you was contained in the well-known and publicly available official history of the war at sea and that you simply had to read it?
                      8. 0
                        6 June 2026 17: 19
                        It's understandable that when you're rewriting the same information for the tenth time, there's no time to think. Logic and critical thinking are completely unnecessary. I've already mentioned that I tried to reconstruct the events of that day on a map, but it didn't work, because official and publicly available sources contradict each other. Read the reports of Eliseev, Bubnov, Lepko, and Bakhtin. And when you start reading the reports of Deva and Isis, you completely lose track of what the Russian commanders were writing, because their account is practically the opposite.
                      9. 0
                        6 June 2026 18: 04
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I already voiced that the events of that day, I tried to restore them on the map, but nothing worked

                        I'm not surprised. Not at all. If you can't read a simple source, a base for the history of the Russian Yamal, what maps are you talking about? What reconstructions?
                      10. -2
                        6 June 2026 19: 52
                        Now, about SOURCES, please. You've already mentioned one, and I'm laughing like a Przewalski's horse just thinking about it. If I showed up to the Source Studies exam with a SOURCE like that, the entire Source Studies department, including the dean, would chase me for three blocks, with their piss-soaked rags. Of course, rewriting something that's been rewritten ten times is much easier.
          3. +1
            6 June 2026 12: 32
            Well, that's the whole point... While they're chasing the armored ships of the line after the "bare-assed" "Bayan", you see, at the crucial moment, they won't add a little more speed... And with them, the whole detachment...
            1. +1
              6 June 2026 14: 17
              The answer lies in your joke))) Fighting while retreating is absolutely not recommended for the "Bayan." Any hit to the aft section could be catastrophic.
      2. +2
        5 June 2026 10: 33
        Quote: TermNachTER
        For some reason, this didn't affect the dogs' actions at all. They weren't exactly bossing around the outer roadstead, but they felt quite at ease there.

        Perhaps this is due to the fact that our fleet, in principle, was not particularly willing to go to sea?
        1. 0
          5 June 2026 13: 06
          I'm embarrassed to ask: what's the point of a fleet that's not particularly eager to go to sea? What were tens of millions of rubles spent on? Even those that cost much more than they do now.
        2. 0
          7 June 2026 01: 47
          The external raid was a complete bummer... At this point, the desire to go out or not to go out became somewhat secondary...
          1. -1
            8 June 2026 12: 43
            If they'd dredged the passage immediately, there wouldn't have been any problems, nor would there have been a surprise attack on the first day. However, everything went to hell.
            1. +2
              8 June 2026 13: 31
              Quote: TermNachTER
              If they'd dredged the passage immediately, there wouldn't have been any problems, nor would there have been a surprise attack on the first day. However, everything went to hell.

              In such a case, a surprise attack could consist of an attack by fire ships with the aim of blocking the narrow passage.
              1. 0
                8 June 2026 14: 58
                We tried that, but it didn't work. Besides, it's easier to block a shallow passage—the hull just lies from shore to shore and that's it. But try blocking a deep one.
                1. +2
                  8 June 2026 15: 40
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  We tried that, but it didn't work.

                  So they didn't try it out suddenly—the war was already underway. And if peace had happened, they'd have to figure out what kind of steamship it was, what its purpose was, and how many there were... And if they'd used the Chin-Yen as a fireship—and all the other old stuff, not sparing a thing—success would have been guaranteed.
                  1. -1
                    8 June 2026 16: 13
                    Establish protection for the outer roadstead with destroyers and cruisers. And a coastal battery, right at the entrance.
  21. +2
    3 June 2026 17: 27
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    The Kassuga and its 10" turret were good.

    Maybe it's a weapon after all???
  22. +2
    4 June 2026 11: 07
    Reconnaissance... Reconnaissance... Begin sweeping the fairway... Pretend to "intensify the smoke" of the squadron in the inner roadstead... And in the near future, ALL the forces present in the immediate vicinity will appear in full force. The entire KING'S army... a little papazza...
  23. -3
    4 June 2026 12: 51
    Quote: Ragnar
    What does "Poltava" have to do with it? We're talking about American super-shipbuilding, aren't we?

    Actually, it's about artillery, but since you're talking about shipbuilding, five years was relatively normal for developed navies back then. Just look at the timeframes of the French, Germans, and Italians. Only the British built faster.
    The Naval Ministry often ordered armor from the Americans, even for battleships built in Russia.
    Quote: Ragnar
    And it seems like we didn’t drink at Brüderschaft, why are you poking me???

    Oh, forgive me, Your Childhood! I've been surfing these internets since the days when "you" was considered rude: https://www.drive2.ru/b/525793/?ysclid=mpzbbf1bwm929702338
    If you are so sensitive, then why are you entering into discussions, especially with questionable knowledge?
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. -2
        5 June 2026 08: 48
        You were torn apart in an epic way, flow out onto .
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. The comment was deleted.
  24. +1
    4 June 2026 20: 37
    Dear Andrey, could you please describe in future articles how ammunition was supplied to deck guns, such as those in the attached picture. It stands alone on the deck, and there are no hatches or doors visible in the superstructure.
    1. +2
      5 June 2026 03: 54
      It stands alone on the deck and there are no hatches or doors visible in the superstructure nearby.

      The door in the superstructure is right next to the rear edge of the shield. However, the caliber is small, and the ammunition could be carried by hand from the elevator, which could be located relatively far away.
    2. +3
      5 June 2026 10: 37
      Quote: Slug_BDMP
      How was ammunition supplied to the deck guns, for example, like the one in the attached picture.

      Yandex delivery wink
    3. +4
      5 June 2026 11: 30
      Good afternoon, dear Slug_BDMP!
      Unfortunately, I can't give you a definitive answer, as the feed system could vary from ship to ship. Generally, for domestic deck guns, the shells and charges were fed from several magazines to the upper deck in special holders (three 6-inch rounds each), and from there they were distributed to the guns via rails (monorails).
      I think that for this particular installation everything could have been exactly as Yura27 described (through the add-on), but I don’t know for sure
  25. +1
    7 June 2026 07: 15
    Bayan's artillery salutes the battleship being launched
  26. The comment was deleted.
  27. 0
    16 August 2026 08: 44
    Harvey-nickel armor was not case-hardened at thicknesses below 75 mm, while Krupp chromium-nickel armor was not case-hardened at thicknesses below 89 mm. The durability of Harvey-nickel and Krupp case-hardened armor at thicknesses below 127 mm was equal, but the former was cheaper.