Armored cruiser Bayan. Construction and testing. When speed matters.

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Armored cruiser Bayan. Construction and testing. When speed matters.

The French projects were considered by the ITC on December 12, 1897 and, for the reasons listed in previous articleA. Lagan's design proved to be the clear winner. The corresponding MTC journal was promptly provided to the Director of the Naval Ministry, who just as quickly reported it to the Admiral-General. Thus, the very next day, December 13, 1897, the MTC received instructions to develop the design and conclude a contract with Forges et Chantiers.

Construction of the Bayan


History The construction of the "armored reconnaissance aircraft" is quite interesting, but I think it is possible not to go into it in depth, limiting myself to just a few comments.

The approval process took a considerable amount of time, which was generally acceptable, but it resulted in the contract not being signed until June 25, 1898. This can be explained by the need for numerous approvals, but it remains unclear why the French only began construction five months after the contract was signed, i.e., in November 1898. However, the reasons for this could have been quite objective. The fact is that the contract price included the ship itself, including the turrets, but without the armament, which was to be provided by the Russian Empire.

The development of the 8-inch turrets could only be completed after receiving the gun drawings, and whether they were submitted on time is a big question. At the very least, it's known for certain that the MTK delayed the transfer of information on the Tsarevich's guns considerably, which is why I can't say for sure that the nearly six-month delay in starting work on the Bayan is entirely the French's fault. But it's also difficult to blame the MTK—given the massive orders for ships from foreign shipyards, the workload of its departments has increased exponentially. The project doesn't care whether it's building one ship or five—that doesn't shorten the time it takes to review and approve.

From the start of construction to delivery the fleet Four years and one month passed since the Bayan's construction, as the acceptance certificate was signed only on December 16, 1902. Here, I would like to remind the esteemed reader that the start date of construction and the keel-laying date of the ship are not the same. A keel-laying is an official event, and it usually took place several months after the start of construction. Thus, the Bayan, whose construction began in November 1898, was officially laid down only on June 26, 1899. By this time, the cruiser's bottom had been installed, and the frames had risen above the armored deck.

It must be acknowledged that the pace of warship construction in France was anything but astonishing. The Bayan was built just eight months faster than the Pobeda, a battleship-cruiser 1,6 times heavier, which took the Baltic Shipyard four years and nine months to complete. Three years and five months elapsed between the official laying of the keel and the delivery of the 7805-ton Bayan, while for the 12360-ton Gromoboi, this period was a year shorter. This is all the more surprising given that the Baltic Shipyard is located in St. Petersburg, the northern capital of the Russian Empire, with a rather harsh climate, while the Forges et Chantiers shipyards were located in the south of France, where snow and frost, let alone heavy rain, are rare.

All this gave naval history buffs reason to accuse Forges et Chantiers of neglecting its responsibilities. They also suspected that this attitude was due to bribes paid to the Admiral General by the French to ensure his "understanding" of the construction deadlines. But in fairness, it should be noted that Forges et Chantiers, like any foreign or domestic shipbuilding company, was dependent on its suppliers. And in France, they operated in a very specific manner.

For example, the cruiser's armor was ordered from the French firms Châtillon-Commentry and Saint-Chamond. According to the contract terms, the side armor plates were supposed to arrive at the end of 1899, but due to workers' strikes in the Loire, they arrived for acceptance trials in January 1900. This, of course, was not a fatal delay, but 16 Châtillon-Commentry armor plates failed the trials, and four of them had to be remade. Therefore, the entire batch did not arrive at the shipyard until August 1900. The delay amounted to almost a year.

Saint-Chamond distinguished itself even more: the company delivered the upper belt plates only in September 1900, a month later than Chatillon-Commentry. And the turret armor was a particularly unpleasant affair. Saint-Chamond was supposed to deliver it in January 1901, and it did so within the contractual deadline. However, this armor failed testing miserably: the shell it was supposed to deflect penetrated it clean through. Repeated tests were conducted two months later, and, alas, with equally disastrous results. Ultimately, the contract with Saint-Chamond was terminated and renegotiated with other suppliers. However, since armor manufacturing is a lengthy process, the armor for the Bayan turrets was delayed by one year and one month, arriving only in February 1902.

The "Bayan" was launched without propellers. Why? Because the propellers, cast integrally with the hub, were ordered from England, but arrived not only with improper geometry (blade pitch and thickness) but also with cavities, even though they had been skillfully repaired. This shoddy work was rejected and sent back, and the English had to recast the propellers, which, of course, wreaked havoc on the ship's construction.


The launch of the armored cruiser Bayan. The photo shows the propellers missing.

Assembly of the Bayan's main mechanisms at the Forges et Chantiers workshops also proceeded very slowly due to numerous defects. For example, one crankshaft arrived in such a state that it was beyond repair, forcing the supplier to rebuild it. Another interesting fact: when they began installing the steam engine on the cruiser, it was discovered that its frame didn't fit the foundation, so it had to be removed and returned to the workshops. However, in this case, I can't say who exactly was to blame for this incident—the suppliers or the workshop workers.

In general, we often tend to criticize domestic shipbuilding in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and in some ways, quite rightly so. But it's worth remembering that France, which possessed the world's second-largest navy at the time, was far from perfect.

"Bayan." Who will we compare it to?


Usually, when I begin to describe a ship, I provide the reader with its general performance characteristics, design features, and armament, and only then move on to a comparison with contemporary "classmates." But this time, I'll deviate from this rule and examine the individual performance characteristics and design elements of the armored cruiser Bayan, immediately comparing them with its "competitors."

Among naval history buffs, the Bayan is widely viewed as a failed cruiser. It is compared to Japanese armored cruisers, including not only those built to Japanese specifications—the Asama, Izumo, Yakumo, and Azuma—but also the "Italian" Nisshin and Kasuga.

I will compare "Bayan" with "Izumo".


This cruiser fits the construction start date better than the Asama, given that the Izumo was clearly superior to the Azuma, and the Yakumo was a one-off Japanese cruiser. I'll use the Nissin as the second cruiser for comparison, but when comparing artillery I won’t forget about the ten-inch Kasuga.

Of course, such a comparison is inappropriate, as the Bayan, Izumo, and Nisshin were designed to fulfill completely different missions. The Bayan was conceived as an armored reconnaissance vessel capable of dealing with armored cruisers serving the same role. Meanwhile, the Japanese and Italian armored cruisers, according to their designers, were intended to engage enemy battleships.

The characteristics of Japanese cruisers were shaped by the naval battles of the Sino-Japanese War. In these battles, according to the sailors of the Land of the Rising Sun, the speed of armored cruisers, combined with rapid-fire medium-caliber artillery, played a decisive role. Therefore, they considered an armament of 6-8 inch caliber guns necessary and sufficient for their future cruisers.

Of course, the Japanese were well aware that the armored cruisers that formed the backbone of their fleet at the Battle of the Yalu would themselves be vulnerable to rapid-fire artillery fire. Therefore, they wanted cruisers that would be well protected against both high-explosive and armor-piercing shells of the same 6-8 inch caliber. As for speed, it had to be superior to that of battleships, so as to be able to engage them from a favorable position.

As for the Italian cruisers of the Garibaldi class, represented by the Nisshin and Kasuga, the ideas for their use were formulated as follows:

1. Carrying out the tasks of an armored cruiser and a squadron battleship, which could operate both alone and as part of a squadron;

2. Fighting against cruiser formations, including armored cruisers;

3. The ability to avoid combat with superior combat units, which requires a speed superior to that of squadron battleships.

Therefore, when comparing the Bayan's characteristics with the cruisers listed above, I will always take into account the differences in the ships' missions. I'll start with speed.

On sea trials of warships in Russia and around the world


It must be said that the Russian Imperial Navy's sea trials requirements for warships were far more advanced than those of many other leading naval powers. Russian sailors were less concerned with record speeds a ship could achieve and maintain for only a short time. They were more interested in the speed a ship could maintain over the long term.

This is why trials were conducted with a normal displacement, while other countries often sought to lighten the ship. If, for any reason, a domestic ship was launched with a lighter weight than the designers intended, this fact was always taken into account when determining whether the contract speed had been achieved.

In addition, the Russian Imperial Navy tested its ships under natural draft, not artificial draft, that is, without forcing (forcing) the boilers, while abroad this was a common practice.

What's the difference between natural and artificial draft? In its most simplified form, artificial draft can be observed when a fan is swung over a smoldering fire, thereby fanning the coals. On ships of that era, artificial draft was often achieved by forcing air into the boiler room, from where it entered the open firebox. For example, during trials of the Japanese battleship Fuji, described below, the pressure in the boiler rooms was increased to 1.5 atmospheres.

Why did the Russian Empire avoid testing with forced draft? The answer is simple: such draft represented an extreme operating mode for boilers, dramatically increasing their wear and tear and posing a risk of accidents. The purpose of a steam boiler was to generate heat, using steam as the working fluid. Accordingly, the boiler was designed for a certain steam output, but forced draft resulted in boilers significantly exceeding this output. Of course, the designers incorporated a certain "safety margin" into the boilers, which allowed them to withstand forced draft. However, this mode was by no means intended to be constant; it was only permitted to be reached occasionally and for short periods. Forced draft is a mode reserved for force majeure situations, when the risk of damage to the boilers is justified by the prevailing tactical situation.

It should also be noted that the practice of using artificial propulsion during trials creates considerable confusion when comparing the speed characteristics of foreign- and domestically built ships. For example, we all know that the Poltava-class battleships, laid down in 1892, had a top speed of 16 knots, while the Japanese Fuji, laid down two years later, reached 18 knots. But if we look more closely at the descriptions of these ships' trials, we discover that the Poltava averaged 16,29 knots during a 9-hour run (it should have been 12 hours, but a storm began)—under natural propulsion, of course. The length of the route was obviously 9 hours * 16,29 knots = 146,6 miles. And the Fuji achieved its record-breaking 18,5 knots. Under artificial propulsion, the Fuji achieved this speed only over a 10-mile run (or rather, it was the average speed over six 10-mile runs). However, over a 40-mile run under natural propulsion, the Fuji achieved a speed of 16,8 knots, not that much faster than the Russian battleship. And it remains to be seen how much the Japanese "speedboat" would have achieved over the Poltava's test distance, which was nearly four times faster than the Fuji's natural propulsion.

And again, we all know that Poltava-class battleships in the Russo-Japanese War generally couldn't sail faster than 13-14 knots. But the fact is that a ship's speed in everyday life is influenced by the reliability of its mechanisms—which might work well during trials but fail later—and the qualifications of its engineers and stokers, the timely maintenance of its engines and boilers, and the quality of its coal. Therefore, the superior speed of Japanese battleships cannot be reduced solely to the merits of their designs.

Another advantage of the Russian testing system was its duration – 6–12 hours, which, again, is in sharp contrast to the same Fuji – its “forty-kilometer” tests took less than 3 hours.

Sea trials of the armored cruiser Bayan


According to the Ministry of the Navy's requirements, the cruiser had to average 21 knots over a 24-hour run. However, at the insistence of the French company's representatives, this requirement was relaxed to two 12-hour runs, no more than 24 hours apart. However, this requirement was also not met—almost 30 hours elapsed between the end of the first run and the beginning of the second.

The trials took place on October 14 and 16, 1902, with a design power of 16,500 hp. The Bayan developed 16,848 hp, and the average speed over the two runs was 20,9 knots. The acceptance committee deemed the company's obligations fulfilled, since "during the last test, many turns were made." Subsequently, there were further trials in which a speed of 20,97 knots was achieved, but much remains unclear. How long they were conducted, or what power the machines developed—I have no data. R.M. Melnikov indicated that 20,97 knots were achieved during a 100-mile run, but, given that, in his opinion, this speed was reached on October 14 and 16 (in fact, on December 11), I cannot vouch for the reliability of this data.

I also have no information about the displacement at which the Bayan sailed for trials on October 14–16. However, given that there were many trials in general, and the cruiser usually sailed at her normal displacement of 7,816–7,844 tons, there is no reason to assume that this time things were any different. Furthermore, when the Bayan sailed underloaded during factory trials—which was perfectly acceptable, as such trials were not acceptance tests but rather a private matter for the shipyard—she would sometimes achieve speeds in excess of 21 knots. For example, on July 31, 1902, the Bayan, with a displacement of 7,406 tons, reached 21,3 knots.

The speed of the cruiser "Bayan" in everyday operation


According to the data I have, the Bayan could confidently maintain a speed of 20 knots during its service in Port Arthur. This was confirmed by Admiral N.K. Reitzenstein, who knew firsthand the capabilities of Port Arthur's cruisers. He wrote in his report to the Viceroy about the Battle of the Yellow Sea, when the Askold and Novik broke through enemy cruisers:

If the cruiser Bayan had been with us, things would have taken a completely different turn. Although the Bayan had a slower speed, she would still have made 20 knots...

And we weren’t talking about a short-term spurt, but about a speed that needed to be maintained for hours.

It's also worth recalling two episodes from the Bayan's combat service that indirectly confirm its speed. On February 12, 1904, a trio of Russian cruisers—the Bayan, Askold, and Novik—found themselves in a tight spot: they were attacked by Admiral Kh. Togo's entire main force, including six battleships and an equal number of armored cruisers. The engagement was brief, but the Novik's logbook indicates that speed was increased to 20 knots during the battle.

The second incident occurred on March 31, 1904, when the Bayan was on its way to the rescue of the destroyer Strashny. The cruiser was in such a hurry that it overtook the destroyer Serdity, which was on duty alongside it. The destroyer's commander, Kluifel, reported this: "The Bayan was probably going at a very high speed, since it quickly caught up with me and overtook me." This was achieved by the Bayan, as Serdity was unable to reach its full speed. A little later, on April 2, the commander reported that even a speed of 20 knots was difficult to achieve, as the refrigerator pipes were leaking, and the stokers, with their extremely insufficient staff, were unable to cope with the required consumption of 4 tons of coal per hour for a speed of 20 knots. Nevertheless, it is quite obvious that to quickly overtake a destroyer traveling even at 17-18 knots, at least 20 knots is required.

Moreover, according to the report of Viren, the Bayan's commander, he spotted the Strashny at 06:00 a.m. and approached the site of its wreck at 06:30 a.m. I would guess that at the time the destroyer was spotted, the distance between the Bayan and the Strashny was about 10 miles, as the Smely, having spotted the Strashny at the beginning of the fifth hour (when it was already light), saw it from a distance of 7-8 miles. However, the destroyer's bridge is low, and from a cruiser one can see much further. Covering 10 miles in half an hour is only possible at a speed of 20 knots.

None of this information, of course, constitutes definitive proof that the Bayan sailed at the speed I've indicated in Port Arthur, but there's no reason to believe otherwise. Much has been written about Diana-class cruisers not operating at their rated speed. This fact is mentioned in the memoirs and documents of several officers who served in the 1st Pacific Squadron, but there's no information about the Bayan that would undermine its speed.

Comparison of the Bayan's speed with Japanese cruisers


I would like to immediately draw the esteemed reader's attention to the fact that the speeds for all cruisers are given during tests under natural thrust.


I would like to point out that the Nissin entered trials underloaded – 7347 tons, while its design displacement was apparently 7628 tons or, perhaps, 7700 tons. Recalculation using the Admiralty coefficient shows that with a displacement of 7628 tons, the cruiser would have developed 18,62 knots.

On the speed of Nissin and Italian cruisers


As mentioned above, when designing the Garibaldi-class cruisers, the Italians aimed for heavily protected and well-armed ships. Something, of course, had to be sacrificed, and that "something" was speed.


This solution fit perfectly with the design of these cruisers. By 1895, when the Garibaldi was laid down, the speed of battleships typically amounted to 16 knots under natural propulsion and 17-18 knots under artificial propulsion. The Garibaldi-class cruisers were intended to exceed these speeds, which required them to achieve 18 knots under natural propulsion and 20 knots under artificial propulsion. Thus, at the time of construction, these Italian ships were fully suited to their intended purpose.

But the Italians completely failed to take into account the speed of scientific and technological progress—just a few years passed, and the development of propulsion systems meant that battleships could reach 18 knots under natural, rather than artificial, propulsion. This led to the speed of battleships and Garibaldi-class cruisers under natural propulsion becoming equal. The Garibaldi-class cruisers could outrun contemporary battleships only by forcing their boilers, meaning in exceptional circumstances and for short periods.

Thus, by the end of 1897, the Garibaldi-class armored cruisers had become classic "poor man's battleships." Their speed was perfectly adequate for fighting alongside modern battleships. But serving as a "fast wing" with an armored squadron, let alone as scouts, was no longer an option.

The Nissin was a classic example of a cruiser of its type. As shown above, when underloaded for trials, it reached 18,74 knots under natural draft. During other trials, with the boilers forced, it achieved 20,15 knots with a power output of 14,896 horsepower, but, again, underloaded, its displacement was 7,413 tons.

That's precisely why the Garibaldi-class cruisers could never even be considered as a prototype for the Bayan. Our admirals were experiencing a severe shortage of modern cruisers for squadron service, which a ship with the speed of a battleship could not possibly fulfill.

Incidentally, the same applies to the "progenitor" of the "Asam" - the armored cruiser "O'Higgins", which, as far as I know, also produced only 18 knots with natural draft.

About the speed of Izumo


The Japanese cruisers were a completely different story. Initially, when the Asama was being designed, the British proposed building a ship with a speed of 18 knots under natural propulsion and 20 knots under artificial propulsion. But the Japanese refused, insisting in July 1896 that the speed of the future Asamoids be increased to 20 knots under natural propulsion—and they were, of course, absolutely right.

The British met the customer's requirements. Izumo achieved a speed of 21,74 knots under natural propulsion with 16,078 (according to other sources, 15,709) horsepower. According to the design, it was supposed to be 20,75 knots with 14,500 horsepower, but the engines performed better, resulting in a correspondingly higher speed. Unfortunately, I couldn't find the displacement at which Izumo (and other Japanese armored cruisers) were tested, but the underload couldn't have been many thousands of tons. Even if we assume that Izumo's displacement during trials was only 8,500 tons, not 9,500, it still turns out that the British-built cruiser, although larger than Bayan and with less powerful engines, still managed to achieve a higher speed. I want to especially highlight the mastery of British naval architects, because the Izumo's hull lines are exemplary. This assertion remains valid and does not challenge what I will write about Japanese cruisers later.

It should be noted that not only the Izumo, but all four Japanese cruisers built in England at the Armstrong shipyards, demonstrated excellent results during sea trials. All of them demonstrated speeds under natural draft well in excess of 20 knots. The Iwate even managed to reach 22,04 knots! An excellent result—but only if the English-built Japanese cruisers could prove their performance in everyday service.

But they didn't confirm it. I have no information that any of these cruisers could reach 20 knots for any length of time. However, I do have evidence that even when the Japanese admiral desperately needed it, the ships of the 2nd Battle Division couldn't reach speeds above approximately 18 knots.

On the speed of Japanese cruisers in battle


It is well known that the Japanese public was quite displeased with the actions of the Vladivostok Cruiser Detachment (VOD) of the Russian Imperial Navy. And, of course, Vice-Admiral H. Kamimura had no intention of playing along with the Rossiya, Gromoboi, and Rurik—he was supposed to destroy this Russian detachment as quickly as possible and join H. Togo's main forces near Port Arthur. Nevertheless, the VOD managed to avoid encounters with the Japanese armored cruisers for a long time.

When, on the morning of June 17, 1904, H. Kamimura received word of the VOK's discovery, he naturally launched his cruisers to intercept it. I'll recount the story of this pursuit in all its details another time, when I begin a series dedicated to the Vladivostok cruisers. For now, I'll describe it briefly.

The detachments met on the evening of June 18, sighting each other at approximately the same time. Our forces reported sighting the Japanese ships at 6:20 p.m., the Japanese at 6:35 p.m., but given the 12-minute time difference at the rendezvous point, that puts the time at 6:23 p.m. In other words, both sides spotted each other almost simultaneously. However, the Russian ships didn't immediately identify the enemy, so Vice-Admiral P.A. Bezobrazov spent another 10 minutes leading his force toward H. Kamimura's advancing Japanese armored cruisers.



The Japanese, however, "immediately after the meeting, changed course and headed for NO 60; they increased speed and, pressing the enemy towards Okinoshima Island, wanted to block his path... The enemy, apparently, was initially unaware of our squadron's presence in the strait and went straight ahead in the same direction, and only when our squadron went to meet him, did he change course to NO and, increasing speed, sailing in the order Rossiya, Gromoboy, and Rurik, began to leave."

According to the Japanese, the distance to the Russian detachment was 22,000 meters when they spotted it. However, because our ships didn't immediately identify the enemy and were on converging courses, the distance between the detachments decreased. Then, as the Russian cruisers lost time and speed while turning, the distance continued to decrease.

What happened next? The official Meiji history describes it this way:

Even before this, while our squadron was catching up with the enemy, heading to cross its course, the distance had gradually decreased, and, furthermore, the Rurik had fallen far behind its leading ships, lying at a distance of 2000 meters by eye. But then both squadrons took the same course, and the distance to the enemy barely changed, and, in fact, the lagging Rurik seemed to have returned to line. Our squadron again increased speed, but the enemy, too, apparently, had gone full speed ahead, and the distance did not decrease.

The parallel pursuit began a little after 18:30 PM and continued until approximately 20:00 PM, when the sun set and visibility sharply deteriorated, so that the Russian ships, by then (according to Japanese estimates) 13-15 km away, became almost invisible. Thus, Kamimura followed the Russian cruisers for between an hour and a quarter and an hour and a half, but during this time the Japanese were unable to close with the Russian squadron, instead traveling at approximately the same speed. This is the Japanese belief.

At what speed did the Russian detachment move?

When P.A. Bezobrazov realized the force confronting him, he turned away from the enemy and increased speed to 18 knots. But as soon as he did this, the Rurik immediately began to fall behind, which was noticed by the Japanese, so speed was reduced (around 7:00 PM), first to 17 knots, and then at 7:20 PM to 16 knots! However, to be fair, according to our sailors, once the detachment reduced speed, the Japanese did begin to slowly catch up, but this only happened after the detachment's speed had slowed to 16 knots. While they were traveling at 17-18 knots, the distance to the Japanese remained unchanged.

Perhaps the Japanese weren't even trying to catch up with our detachment—perhaps they were planning to leave it to the destroyers, who were supposed to attack the FOC after sunset? This theory is unlikely to be true, and here's why.

Firstly, H. Kamimura had over an hour before sunset, and during that time, if his speed allowed, he could easily close in on our cruisers and attempt to knock out at least one of them. Waiting at a distance made no sense to him.

Secondly, according to modern Russian authors (N. Pakhomov, S. Nesolyonny), our sailors noted the presence of flares above the funnels of the Japanese cruisers. A quote from Midshipman G. Kolokolov of the Rossiya is cited: "It was already beginning to get dark, and behind us, the Japanese cruisers were throwing out sheaves of flame."

But I have some doubts about the latter, as I don't have the original source, and this quote is presented differently by our authors. Including in such a way that one might assume the flames were actually salvos from Japanese guns, which fired at our cruisers for some time, although the range was prohibitive, and the shells fell significantly short.

However, there is a historical fact: during the more than hour-long race, the Japanese were unable to close the distance. Their speed was somewhere around 18 knots, and if our authors are correct in their interpretation of the documents, it's possible that even this speed was achieved by forcing the boilers.

As for the Battle of the Korea Strait on August 1, 1904, it's not indicative of the speed of Japanese cruisers. Firstly, the Japanese cruisers cut off the naval air defense system from Vladivostok, and secondly, K. P. Jessen's flagship, Rossiya, suffered damage to some of its boilers, limiting the Russian force to no more than 15 knots during the approach to the Japanese and for part of the battle. Rossiya was subsequently accelerated to 17,5 knots—but 18 knots was undoubtedly within Kamimura's armored cruisers' reach.

The respected A.S. Alexandrov and S.A. Balakin pointed out that, in the opinion of the British naval attaché, British-built cruisers “could hardly maintain a speed of more than 18 knots for an extended period.”

What was wrong with H. Kamimura's armored cruisers?


I can surmise that the actual performance of Japanese cruisers is to some extent related to the ship delivery and acceptance procedures in England. Here's how Lieutenant D. Golov described the latter in his article "On Ship Engines and Boilers," published in the "Maritime Collection" in 1905:

Until now, in England, as in all other countries, only the duration of the test was prescribed, which would result in a certain engine power or ship speed; for some tests, coal consumption per 1 ind. horsepower per hour was also limited; everything else was left to the discretion of the manufacturers handing over the engines, who, of course, took advantage of this and carried out acceptance tests under conditions that were impossible to replicate during the ship's service, not only in wartime but even in peacetime. Thus, a specially trained engine crew was recruited for the tests, and in unlimited numbers; the freshest and choicest fuel was used; without sparing the durability of the engines, excessive slack was allowed in bearings and other rubbing parts, and they were not only generously lubricated, but also liberally doused with oil and water. This, of course, was taken into account by the designers when designing the engines, which were calculated so that they could develop their maximum power only under the extraordinary conditions allowed by the manufacturers for the acceptance trials. As a result, the maximum speed for which a vessel is ordered is fictitious, unachievable under normal operating conditions. After the vessel is accepted, the manufacturer requires further trials if they want to know what maximum speed can be expected.

Moreover, the vast discrepancy between the British aircraft's design power and the actual output achieved during testing is striking. For example, the armored cruiser Bayan's aircraft exceeded their design power by 348 hp, or 2,11%, while the British aircraft's output was 1,578 hp, or 10,88% (incidentally, the Nissin's output was 2,188 hp, or 25,74%!). It's quite possible that such records are a consequence of the procedures described in D. Golova's article. If so, it's not surprising that aircraft designed in this manner, while demonstrating championship results in testing, might not even reach their design levels in everyday use.

I can also assume that if the Naval Ministry of the Russian Empire had approached the British with a proposal to build for our fleet an "Asamoid" with a speed of 20 knots under natural propulsion, confirmed by tests under Russian conditions, the British would have refused.

Conclusions


Overall, it can be concluded that our Naval Ministry, having ordered the Bayan, received a cruiser capable of serving as a reconnaissance vessel for a squadron of modern battleships. Moreover, its daily speed of 20 knots, which the cruiser could maintain for extended periods, can perhaps be considered minimally adequate. Meanwhile, Japanese cruisers had a maximum speed of 18 knots, roughly equivalent in this regard to the Russian Diana-class armored cruisers. There is absolute unanimity among sailors of the time and among modern naval history enthusiasts that the speed of the latter was insufficient for cruisers.

Продолжение следует ...

P.S. An interesting thought was raised in the comments to my previous article: what if the Ministry of the Navy had ordered Garibaldi-class armored cruisers, but with lighter Belleville boilers instead of fire-tube boilers? This would have increased engine power and speed. I'd like to remind you that this idea didn't work out for the Italians. They built two such cruisers, but, for example, the Varese's propulsion system with Belleville boilers was only 500 hp more powerful than that of the Garibaldi, while being only 13 tons lighter.
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  1. +3
    27 May 2026 05: 05
    According to the Japanese, at the time of discovery of the Russian detachment, the distance to it was 22,000 meters.
    ...so the Russian ships, which at that time were (according to Japanese estimates) 13-15 km away...
    ...Kamimura followed the Russian cruisers for an hour and a quarter to an hour and a half, but during this time the Japanese were unable to close in on the Russian squadron.

    Reducing the distance by at least 7 km, or even 9 km - are you sure you couldn't get closer in just an hour and a half?
    1. +4
      27 May 2026 06: 59
      Reducing the distance by at least 7 km, or even 9 km - are you sure you couldn't get closer in just an hour and a half?

      Andrey (Author) writes that this distance was eaten up not by the speed of the Japanese cruisers, but by our untimely recognition of the enemy's maneuver to evade combat.
      According to the Japanese, the cruisers were moving at equal speed on the "straight" section. According to our estimates, the enemy began closing in when the detachment slowed to 16 knots.
      P.S. Thanks to Andrey for the article!
      1. +6
        27 May 2026 08: 08
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        Andrey (Author) writes that this distance was eaten up not by the speed of the Japanese cruisers, but by our untimely recognition of the enemy's maneuver to evade combat.

        Oh well, if it were just me, the Japanese are writing about the same thing :))))
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        P.S. Thanks to Andrey for the article!

        It's my pleasure!
    2. +6
      27 May 2026 08: 07
      Quote: Jura 27
      Reducing the distance by at least 7 km, or even 9 km

      This happened while the units were moving on converging courses, but when they shifted to parallel ones, there were no cuts. The article clearly states this in Russian, citing a Japanese source.
      But then both squadrons took the same course, and the distance to the enemy barely changed; in fact, the lagging Rurik seemed to have returned to line. Our squadron increased speed again, but the enemy, too, apparently, had gone full speed ahead, and the distance did not decrease.

      Yura, are you trying to start an argument for the sake of an argument again? :))))
  2. +7
    27 May 2026 06: 26
    +++ Good morning... Excellent continuation... Reconnaissance basically implies silence... And the fact that they didn't burden the "Bayan" with artillery is correct... (Why would a reconnaissance ship carry a "Kord"?), but if "Asama" and "Tokiwa" come from there, then bless them, "Pobeda" and "Peresvet" are heading towards them... Is the exit fairway shallow? They blew control of the outer roads (soup with dumplings), so it's not the "Bayan"'s fault...
    1. +7
      27 May 2026 08: 10
      Quote: Ragnar
      +++ Good morning... Wonderful continuation...

      Thank you!
      Quote: Ragnar
      And the fact that they didn’t burden the “Bayan” with artillery is right...

      I will discuss this issue in the next article:)))
      1. +1
        27 May 2026 10: 20
        Andrey, I've been reading a lot of literature lately. I came across "NAVAL BATTLES AND Clashes of the Russo-Japanese War or the Cause of Defeat: Management Crisis." I.M. Koksinsky. 2002. The problem is that only a portion is available—153 pages. What's your opinion on it, and is it worth searching for the whole thing?
        1. +1
          27 May 2026 10: 40
          Quote: Ragnar
          The problem is that only part of it is present - 153 sheets.

          If you want, write me a private message with your email address, I have Koksinsky
          Quote: Ragnar
          What is your attitude towards her, and is it worth looking for her in her entirety?

          I can't say anything entirely bad about it. However, I didn't fully master it, as it's intended more for those just beginning their journey in studying Russian linguistics, and much of it is based on criticism of unreliable authors, which is often justified, at least in the parts I read.
          In general, of course, reading the same official history "The Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905" will give you much more information, but it is a six-volume work, and you also need to read Yegoryev, according to the VOK.
          However, I can send you this too:))))
          1. 0
            27 May 2026 11: 07
            I've read much more of the literature you suggested, both staff documentation and ground documentation... But I don't consider Kokkinsky suitable for those just beginning their journey...
            1. +2
              27 May 2026 11: 29
              Quote: Ragnar
              But I don’t consider Koksinsky for those who are just starting their journey...

              You are, of course, within your rights. I only expressed my personal opinion because you asked me about it. And it doesn't necessarily have to be correct: as I said above, I haven't read Kokksinsky's entirety.
      2. +1
        27 May 2026 11: 02
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I will discuss this issue in the next article:)))

        And about the towers, if possible, too.
        I've read that they weren't very successful and were vulnerable.
        1. +5
          27 May 2026 11: 31
          Quote: Trapper7
          And about the towers, if possible, too.

          Well, how could we do without them? ))) But I'll only start talking about towers, because the next article will be dedicated to artillery, and only then, after that, will I move on to defense. At the same time, the problematic nature of Japanese towers extends to both.
      3. 0
        27 May 2026 12: 05
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I will discuss this issue in the next article:)))

        I'm curious, how effective were the 8" Bayan guns? Were they analogous to those "dogs"? Hindsight is a consideration, of course, but wouldn't it have been better to stick with 6" main guns for a cruiser displacing up to 8 kilotons? The Bogatyr turret mounts aren't necessary; the shields are quite sufficient.
        1. 0
          27 May 2026 12: 57
          The idea was that the defense would protect against shells from battleships, but 6 inches weren't very impressive there. One could have dreamed of 10-12 178mm guns, but that's just too much.
          What bothers me more is the admirals' love for all sorts of small stuff: 37-75 mm, it would be better to throw it out and install 4 203, 8 152 and 8 105. Or 2 203, 12 152, 12 105. There would be more space there due to the reduction in crew.
          1. -1
            27 May 2026 16: 29
            Quote: uber
            The idea was that the defense should protect against shells from battleships, but 6 inches were not very impressive there.

            Just like two 8" won't impress any battleship.
            1. +2
              27 May 2026 16: 39
              Quote: Adrey
              Just like two 8" won't impress any battleship.

              And they don't need it
            2. +2
              28 May 2026 10: 31
              He needs speed and armor to escape the battleship before it can take a large-caliber shell to the face. Those are supposed to impress, and the 8-inch armor should "delight" enemy cruisers. And I agree that 2 x 8" is so-so; 10-12 178 or 4 x 203 and 8 x 6" are better.
          2. 0
            28 May 2026 10: 47
            Then 8x120mm/45.
            There are no Russian naval guns with a caliber of 105 mm...
            And I agree, yes, they are asking to be replaced by 20x75!
            1. 0
              28 May 2026 15: 50
              In the end, they made 102/60. So they could have made it earlier or bought it from the Germans. And I don't think there was a 178 either.
              1. 0
                28 May 2026 16: 19
                The 120/45 and 102/60 guns are similar.
                The mass of the swinging part and the mass of the machines are identical.
                The only difference is in the caliber and weight of the cartridge (projectile + cartridge case).
                Vnach for both is 820 m/s (2700 ft/s).
                1. 0
                  28 May 2026 16: 44
                  The 102 has a higher rate of fire, and the German 105 has an even higher rate because the unitary weight is less than 25 kg, compared to 35-40 kg for the 120/45. And the 105's shell weight is significantly greater than that of the 75. This provides a huge tactical advantage.
                  1. 0
                    28 May 2026 17: 03
                    Correction
                    I just rewatched Shirokorad:
                    for 120/45 the shot weight is 36 kg,
                    for 102/60 the shot weight is 30 kg.
                    1. 0
                      29 May 2026 08: 14
                      The mass of the gun body with the lock (approximately):
                      102/60 - 2900
                      105/40 - 1600 (that is, more than 75 mm by only 700 kg, and not by 2 tons)
                      And the unitary weight of 105/40 was 25 kg.
                      The machine needs to be lighter, etc.
                      The 102/60 is an excellent gun for destroyers, but for the RYA it would be better to replace the 75/50 with the 105/40.
                  2. +2
                    31 May 2026 05: 06
                    Our 75tka is nothing special. It was designed to stop torpedo boats of the late 19th century with a single successful hit. A single hit to the boilers or engines. This type of dummy shell ensured that. The bulk of the hull on those torpedo boats was large. A hit wasn't difficult given the large number of guns. But against fighters, a single hit from such a dummy shell was, to put it mildly, insufficient.
                    These calculations were somewhere.
                    But the increase in fighter size and survivability caught everyone off guard. Everyone seemed paralyzed. They had to fight, but there was nothing to fight for. They just stuck with whatever they had, out of inertia. The Germans, for example, were cramming their 88mm cannons into everything, even in WWI. Although it was already clear that this was just for self-reassurance.
                    1. +4
                      31 May 2026 22: 45
                      Quote: MCmaximus
                      Our 75tka is nothing special. It was designed to stop torpedo boats of the late 19th century with one successful hit.

                      When the 75mm was first adopted, it was considered a "second medium caliber." But it quickly became relegated to the role of "mine-resistant," and it quickly became apparent that even that wasn't enough...
                      1. 0
                        14 August 2026 10: 16
                        A very accurate observation. According to the design, the 75mm Kane gun in the Russian navy was supposed to be equipped with high-explosive melinite shells as its primary weapon, making them equal in power to the 107mm pyroxylin shells. But before Nicholas II's idiotic decision to convert all guns up to 3-inch diameter to solid shells (cannonballs), only 2000 high-explosive 75mm shells with a bursting charge of just 48 grams were manufactured. The "limonka" had a larger charge! Shrapnel shells weren't even designed.
              2. +1
                28 May 2026 16: 50
                There was a thread on Tsushima about choosing between 120/45 and 102/60 guns.
                They are completely interchangeable in terms of media due to their identical weight and size characteristics.
                On battleships and cruisers it’s definitely 120/45,
                and for counter-destroyers and destroyers, 102/60 was adopted due to the smaller mass and length of the cartridge, which is critical for loaders on the deck of small-displacement ships (little space, flooding, strong pitching).
                The weight of a shot (projectile + cartridge case + gunpowder) for 120/45 is approximately 35 kg; for 102/60 approximately 28 kg.
                1. +2
                  31 May 2026 04: 50
                  When they installed the 120mm, the 102mm wasn't available yet. Those same Volunteers had 75mm. When they were designing the Novik, they considered 120mm guns for it. But they immediately rejected them as soon as they developed the 102mm. And no one liked the 120mm on the Ganguts.
                  And anyway, these guns didn't show any signs of being effective. Strange guns.
        2. +3
          27 May 2026 13: 12
          Quote: Adrey
          But I was wondering how effective the 8" "Bayan" were?

          There were no problems with them; the displacement of almost 8 thousand tons was quite adequate for this caliber.
          1. +1
            27 May 2026 16: 27
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            There were no problems with them; the displacement of almost 8 thousand tons was quite adequate for this caliber.
            In terms of displacement, yes, quite. Do you have any statistics on them? It would be interesting to see. Perhaps in a future article?
            1. +3
              27 May 2026 16: 41
              Quote: Adrey
              Do you have any statistics on them?

              Unfortunately, he saw little combat. The Japanese apparently counted one 8-inch shell hit on January 27th, while Bayan fired 28. But it's impossible to say for sure—the 8-inch shells could have been mistaken for 6-inch shells, or the other way around...
              1. +1
                27 May 2026 16: 45
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                But it’s impossible to say anything for sure here - 8-inch hits could have been mistaken for 6-inch ones, or the other way around...

                Thank you good
        3. +5
          27 May 2026 15: 35
          I believe the Bayan was a significantly more stable combat platform for its 8-inch guns than the Japanese "dogs," which had half the displacement. And it seems to me that a 6-inch main caliber is insufficient for an armored cruiser.
          1. +3
            27 May 2026 16: 26
            Quote: Victor Masyuk
            I believe that for 8-inch guns, the Bayan was a significantly more stable combat platform than the Japanese "dogs" with half the displacement.

            This is undoubtedly true
          2. +1
            27 May 2026 16: 31
            Quote: Victor Masyuk
            I believe that for 8-inch guns, the Bayan was a significantly more stable combat platform than the Japanese "dogs" with half the displacement.

            I'm aware of all this. I'm just curious to see the results. For example, the Albatross being thrashed by similar ships wasn't at all impressive.
            1. +1
              27 May 2026 16: 42
              Quote: Adrey
              It's just interesting to see the results. For example, the Albatross's defeat by similar ships was not at all impressive.

              Visibility was very poor there, and the hit rate was at least 4,29-4,61%. It's possible it was much higher, which isn't bad at all for WWI.
              https://topwar.ru/139427-gotlandskiy-boy-19-iyunya-1915-g-chast-5-kak-strelyali-russkie-komendory.html
              1. 0
                27 May 2026 16: 51
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Visibility was very problematic there, and the hit percentage was 4,29-4,61% minimum.

                Yes, I read and am aware of the nuances of this fight (relatively, of course).
              2. +1
                31 May 2026 04: 56
                Even 3% was never bad.
                1. +1
                  31 May 2026 07: 28
                  In general, yes, but it all depends on the distance.
          3. 0
            27 May 2026 18: 11
            10 Kent-class cruisers gathered together to cry in a corner...
            1. +1
              27 May 2026 19: 11
              Quote: Ragnar
              10 Kent-class cruisers gathered together to cry in a corner...

              A very specialized project. A protector of trade. For its purposes, 152mm was just about right.
            2. +2
              27 May 2026 19: 51
              Why cry? They could maintain a speed of 21,5-22 knots for 30 hours. The Kent, which had served for 10 years, reached 25 knots.
              And the Asamas? Four Englishmen—18 knots, for a short time. The Yakumo—17 knots with difficulty. And the Azuma, by September 1904—16 knots, and then only for a very short time. Immediately, the Dianas come to mind.
            3. +2
              28 May 2026 05: 12
              And the British Lords of the Admiralty were wrong... The British themselves joked, "Sir William White designed the County-class cruisers, but forgot about the guns." And the Kents didn't do anything remarkable either. The Monmouth participated in the Battle of Coronel and proved completely helpless against the German armored cruisers. I anticipate objections that the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were next-generation armored cruisers, but that doesn't change the fact that if the Monmouth had carried 203-caliber guns (or 234-caliber guns, as the British used to call them), she might have inflicted at least some damage on the Germans... As it was, she was shot down with complete impunity.
        4. +4
          27 May 2026 23: 44
          Quote: Adrey
          But I was wondering how effective the 8" "Bayan" were?

          IMHO, 8-inch guns are a significant advantage over some potential opponents in terms of range and armor penetration.
          1. +2
            28 May 2026 11: 00
            In terms of muzzle energy, the Russian 8"/45 guns were clearly superior to the Armstrong 8"/40.
            The projectile has the lightest relative weight of 10,6 (88 kg), but Vnach = 905 m/s (later reduced to 875 m/s).
        5. +1
          31 May 2026 04: 53
          203 mm is the only argument against the Asamoids' armor. You can't really argue with 152 mm. Although, for a cruiser with a squadron, these guns are pointless. It's understandable who wrote the specifications.
          1. -1
            31 May 2026 09: 31
            Quote: MCmaximus
            203 is the only argument against the Asamoids' armor.

            What's the point? "Bayan," even with 203, can really "pretend" anything against the "Asamoid"? Ultimately, you'll run away anyway. So, the point of "8" is completely lost.
            1. 0
              31 May 2026 10: 33
              Quote: Adrey
              What's the point?

              The point is that the 8-inch guns are very good at penetrating armored cruisers, which is why the Bayan, with these guns, became a legitimate hunter for them.
              Quote: Adrey
              "Bayan", even with 203, can really "present" something to the "Asamoid"?

              He can fight him for a very long time, and with luck, even successfully. Although he is somewhat weaker.
              1. 0
                31 May 2026 19: 33
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                The point is that 8-inch cannons are very good at penetrating armored cruisers.

                Good evening, Andrey. The Novik was able to really upset the Tsushima with its 120mm. Is the 8" really necessary for that?
                And the "Bayan", if it were 23-24 knots, with a belt of 150 and bevels of 50, about 12x6" would turn into just a tyrannosaurus for all armored deck carriers. But with the Asamoids, the picture would have remained the same.
                1. 0
                  31 May 2026 21: 08
                  And the "Bayan," if it were 23-24 knots, with a 150-knot belt and 50-knot slopes, and a 12x6" hull, would have turned into a tyrannosaurus rex for all armored deck ships. And with the Asamoids, the picture would have remained the same.

                  The characteristics are overstated for 1900, but the armor distribution was odd. Based on hindsight and the quality of six-inch shells, even the older 203/35mm guns were better than these iron-throwing, hole-punching guns.
                  The belt could have been made uniform in thickness throughout its entire height, approximately 90-102 mm, by reducing the thickness at the waterline. As it was, the Russian 6000-mm class ships with 12 six-inch guns turned out to be the most useless: too expensive, too vulnerable without belt armor, and underarmed.
                  1. 0
                    31 May 2026 22: 30
                    Quote: clou
                    For 1900 the characteristics are overstated

                    What's overstated? "If something goes up, it goes up somewhere else." "Askold" ran its units without a problem.
                    1. +2
                      1 June 2026 18: 47
                      Quote: Adrey
                      What's overstated? "If something goes up, it goes up somewhere else." "Askold" ran its units without a problem.

                      The Askold is a long, narrow ship with five funnels. All the others were slower. Generally, one of RIA's problems is the plethora of highly specialized ships on a shoestring budget.
                2. +1
                  31 May 2026 21: 57
                  Good evening!
                  Quote: Adrey
                  "Novik" was able to really "upset" "Tsushima" with its 120mm, is 8" really necessary for this?

                  They're necessary. We were simply lucky with the Tsushima—it was a "golden" shell—but you can't count on such lucky hits all the time. And even without much luck, an 8-inch can rip apart an armored deck like God would a turtle.
                  Quote: Adrey
                  And the "Bayan", be it 23-24 knots, with a 150 belt and 50 bevels, about 12x6"

                  would weigh significantly more than it weighed in real life.
                  1. -1
                    31 May 2026 22: 35
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    would weigh significantly more than it weighed in real life.

                    Why? The bevel area is significantly smaller than the GBP area.
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    We were simply lucky with Tsushima; it was a golden shell, but we can't count on such lucky hits being made all the time.

                    2-8", the same hopes for a "like shot". We need to play less cards. laughing. Or more laughing recourse
                    1. 0
                      31 May 2026 23: 49
                      Quote: Adrey
                      Why? The bevel area is significantly smaller than the GBP area.

                      Actually, it's more because it's beveled at an angle:))) And the Bayan's armor is already on average 150 mm (it's 200 mm on top, 100 mm on the bottom)
                      Quote: Adrey
                      2-8", the same hopes for "likes shot".

                      No, they hurt without any lucky shots.
                      1. 0
                        1 June 2026 00: 25
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Actually, it's more because it's beveled at an angle:))) And the Bayan's armor is already on average 150 mm (it's 200 mm on top, 100 mm on the bottom)

                        I probably expressed myself incorrectly. It's just that if you calculate the reduction in mm of the main gun (with possible shortening) and add the sloped armor deck, there should be a weight gain.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        No, they hurt without any lucky shots.

                        You just have to hit the target. The 6" quantity translates into quality in the end.
                      2. +3
                        1 June 2026 08: 23
                        Quote: Adrey
                        The quantity of 6" turns into quality as a result.

                        At that time, that’s what they thought, but experience has shown that they were wrong.
                        Roughly speaking, one eight-inch gun weighs as much as two six-inch guns. It fires twice as slowly, but with twice the projectile weight. And at the same time, it's much more accurate. (I'm talking about deck-mounted or single-gun turrets here.)
                        Sclerosis suggests that the dispersion ellipse of a 6" Canet at 45 kbps will be something around 200 meters. For an 8" one, it's something around 50 or a little more.
                      3. +1
                        1 June 2026 12: 00
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        That's pretty much what people thought at the time, but as experience has shown, they were wrong.

                        Exactly. Ultimately, "Bayan" is a child of its time and its worldview. Is it good or bad? It probably (and, in fact, definitely) could have been better, but that's a matter of hindsight.
                      4. +1
                        1 June 2026 09: 44
                        Quote: Adrey
                        I probably expressed myself incorrectly. Simply put, if you calculate the decrease in mmHg (with possible shortening)

                        So it needs to be lengthened, not shortened:))) A short belt leads to weakening of the protection of the extremities, and this is not good at all.
                        Simply put, if you make a fast mover, you need to take care of its protection so that it maintains speed.
                        Quote: Adrey
                        and by adding slopes to the armored deck there should be a gain in weight.

                        Bayan's armor belt averaged 150 mm. It could be reduced to 100 mm, of course, but what's the point? You'd lose a significant amount of protection; they didn't know how to properly cement that kind of armor back then.
                        Quote: Adrey
                        You just have to get there first.

                        Well, Asama got into the Varangians pretty well.
                      5. +3
                        1 June 2026 11: 08
                        Good morning.
                        Bayan's armor belt averaged 150 mm. It could be reduced to 100 mm, of course, but what's the point? You'd lose a significant amount of protection; they didn't know how to properly cement that kind of armor back then.

                        Dear Andrey, the story of the armor for the armored cruiser Bayan is quite interesting. The French Navy had its own system for rating armor strength. It was based on steel with a strength of 1. If the test result reached 1,17–1,20, it was considered a good result, and anything higher was considered a bonus.
                        The Saint-Chamond company used the cementation method for its nickel armor and installed it on two ships: the "d'Entrecasteaux" and the "Bouvet." However, this armor was tested according to old standards, which stipulated limits of 1,17–1,20. As a result, Saint-Chamond received a bonus for its products.
                        However, the Ministry of the Navy wasn't so naive and quickly figured out the situation. It was decided not to accept the bonus, but the armor strength requirement for eligibility was raised to 1,40 (for Harvey, by French standards at the time, it was 1,45).
                        Apparently, Saint-Chamond was trying to sell this armor for the Bayan, as they had no other options at the time. The test limits for this armor were 1,30. It's a good thing it was ultimately abandoned.
                      6. +3
                        1 June 2026 11: 24
                        Dear Igor, the story is very interesting, thank you :))))
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        Steel with a strength of 1 was taken as a basis.

                        For my part, I can assume that they were talking about steel armor, and not steel-nickel, but another option is also possible.
                        Early Harvey steel could only slightly outperform good steel-nickel in strength, just 1,1-1,25 times. So it seems logical that if French armor is better than early Harvey steel, then there's a premium.
                        But then an improved Harvey armor appeared, which was already close to the strength of Krupp armor. This is precisely what this refers to.
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        For Harvey at that time, by French standards, it was 1,45

                        This is just about the ratio between steel nickel and improved Harvey
                        And we, on Bayan, certainly don’t need the early Harvey instead of Krupp laughing
                      7. -1
                        1 June 2026 12: 08
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        A short belt leads to weakening of the protection of the extremities, and this is not good at all.

                        The carapace is reinforced at the ends along its entire length to help us.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It can be reduced, of course, to 100, but what's the point?

                        There's no point in throwing it under the "Asamoids" and battleships. The role of a "squadron scout" is to see, report, retreat to a safe distance, and continue observation. And why is there a nearly battleship-sized armor belt here?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Well, Asama got into the Varangians pretty well.

                        You know the conditions of that battle very well. The ship was in narrow waters, at essentially slow speed.
                      8. +3
                        1 June 2026 12: 27
                        Quote: Adrey
                        The carapace is reinforced at the ends along its entire length to help us.

                        Well, we'll talk about that next week - there will be an article dedicated to the Bayan's armor - what, why and how.
                      9. +1
                        1 June 2026 13: 37
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Well, we'll talk about that next week - there will be an article dedicated to the Bayan's armor - what, why and how.

                        good
                3. +1
                  1 June 2026 08: 14
                  Quote: Adrey
                  "Novik" was able to really "upset" with the 120mm

                  Not really. He suffered no casualties, the enemy was beaten, and a Kasagi was hanging around nearby, just in case he had to finish him off. So the Japanese could have withdrawn from the battle.
                  Quote: Adrey
                  And the "Bayan", if it were 23-24 knots, with a belt of 150 and bevels of 50, about 12x6" would turn into a simple Tyrannosaurus for all armored deck ships.

                  More like a velociraptor))) It can bite, but it will only kill something small)))
                  Colleague, you've described "Kent," who had nothing to say in response to ShiG.
                  1. 0
                    1 June 2026 11: 50
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    More like a velociraptor))) It can bite, but it will only kill something small)))

                    This is precisely what made the original "Bayan" different. For it, killing an "Asamoid" is an epic feat, akin to a miracle. As for the "little things," with a few tweaks to the specs, it would have been easier, more successful, and possibly cheaper.
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    Colleague, you've described "Kent," who had nothing to say in response to ShiG.

                    Well, you know the story of that battle very well. Even if the Kent had had something to snap at, it would still have been doomed, and even its speed wouldn't have saved it. Just like the ShiG later. How many times did they snap at the British LCRs?
                    1. +2
                      1 June 2026 12: 27
                      Quote: Adrey
                      As for the "little things" - by playing with the characteristics a little, it would have turned out simpler, more successful and possibly at a lower price.

                      You're wrong. One hit from an 8" can easily knock Elswick down. And you'll have to keep digging with six-inchers until the day you die.
                      1. 0
                        1 June 2026 13: 39
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        You're wrong.

                        Well, it depends on how you look at it. You just need to calculate the hit probability and hit rate statistics.
            2. +2
              31 May 2026 18: 23
              Quote: Adrey
              "Bayan", even with 203, can really "present" something to the "Asamoid"?

              And why not?
              At least the Bayan doesn't have ammunition in its turret, which could blow up from a lucky hit.
              1. +2
                31 May 2026 22: 49
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                At least the Bayan doesn't have ammunition in its turret, which could blow up from a lucky hit.

                Done right!
                And the "Rurik" from the 8-inch was able to show something to the "Iwata"
              2. +1
                1 June 2026 02: 59
                At least the Bayan doesn't have ammunition in its turret, which could blow up from a lucky hit.

                During the design and construction of the Asam and other Iwate, Japanese shells with highly sensitive explosives and fuses did not yet exist, so the probability of shell detonation in the turret was close to zero.
                1. +2
                  1 June 2026 08: 09
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  The probability of detonation of shells in the turret was close to zero.

                  Really? Ships were blown up even in the days when there was no other explosive besides black powder.
                  Well, if you remember, the colleague’s question was:
                  Quote: Adrey
                  "Bayan", even with 203, can really "present" something to the "Asamoid"?

                  I hope you won't deny that when the meeting of the "Bayan" and "Asama" became possible, sensitive explosives and instantaneous fuses were quite available?
                  1. +1
                    1 June 2026 15: 46
                    Really? Ships were blown up even in the days when there was no other explosive besides black powder.

                    It didn't explode in the shells.

                    I hope you won't deny that when the meeting of the "Bayan" and "Asama" became possible, sensitive explosives and instantaneous fuses were quite available?

                    From what distance do you want to penetrate a 6" GN with a Russian eight-inch gun?
                    1. +1
                      1 June 2026 16: 42
                      Quote: Jura 27
                      From what distance do you want to penetrate a 6" GN with a Russian eight-inch gun?

                      The Iwate casemate was penetrated by an 8-inch gun.
                      1. 0
                        2 June 2026 03: 16
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        From what distance do you want to penetrate a 6" GN with a Russian eight-inch gun?

                        The Iwate casemate was penetrated by an 8-inch gun.

                        No. 8"/35 did not penetrate 6" KH from a distance when the ammo explosion in the casemate occurred.
                    2. +2
                      1 June 2026 17: 05
                      Quote: Jura 27
                      From what distance do you want to penetrate a 6" GN with a Russian eight-inch gun?

                      There are chances of cables with 20
                      1. 0
                        2 June 2026 03: 19
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        From what distance do you want to penetrate a 6" GN with a Russian eight-inch gun?

                        There are chances of cables with 20

                        Well, almost all battles are at ranges of 22kbt and above. The chances of an ammo explosion are near zero. Only a hit to an embrasure or something similar is extremely unlikely.
                      2. +1
                        2 June 2026 09: 15
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        hitting the embrasure

                        Embrasure, roof, rear/side bulkhead...
                      3. 0
                        2 June 2026 16: 13
                        rear/side bulkhead...

                        In the tower?
                      4. +2
                        2 June 2026 16: 14
                        I meant the bulkhead of the casemate
                    3. 0
                      2 June 2026 15: 22
                      Quote: Jura 27
                      From what distance do you want to penetrate a 6" GN with a Russian eight-inch gun?

                      Argument. recourse recourse
                      On the other hand, a colleague suggested ditching the 8" altogether and replacing it with 152mm. And with such a setup, Asama really won't have anything to show for it. request
                      1. 0
                        2 June 2026 16: 16
                        On the other hand, a colleague suggested abandoning the 8" altogether, replacing them with 152mm.

                        If 8" is of no use, then why pay more?
                        6" will do if you can win in the same caliber or weight.
                      2. +2
                        2 June 2026 17: 17
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        If there is no use from 8"

                        Why not? It's certainly better than 6"
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        6" will do

                        I do not think so.
                      3. 0
                        2 June 2026 18: 17
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        If 8" is of no use, then why pay more?
                        6" will do if you can win in the same caliber or weight.

                        Alexey Alexandrovich, log out again. St. Petersburg hasn't recovered from your jokes with goddesses yet.
                2. +1
                  1 June 2026 14: 41
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  there were no Japanese shells with super-sensitive explosives

                  The Japanese began using shimozu in projectiles in 1894.
                  1. +1
                    1 June 2026 15: 53
                    Quote: rytik32
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    there were no Japanese shells with super-sensitive explosives

                    The Japanese began using shimozu in projectiles in 1894.

                    I'm interested in the eight-inch shells, specifically those that were stored in the turrets.
                    Well, at what stage of the design did the British become aware of this?
                    1. 0
                      1 June 2026 16: 41
                      Quote: Jura 27
                      Interested in eight-inch shells

                      These went on ships just before the war.

                      those that were kept in the towers

                      Any type of ammunition could be stored there, regardless of type. This was true both at the rear wall and under the turret floor.
                      Don't forget about the charges either - gunpowder is also very dangerous.

                      Quote: Jura 27
                      Well, at what stage of the design did the British become aware of this?

                      By the way, the English were involved in lyddite.
                      1. 0
                        2 June 2026 03: 11
                        Don't forget about the charges either - gunpowder is also very dangerous.

                        There were no charges stored in the tower.
                        These went on ships just before the war.

                        And the design, almost ten years earlier.
    2. +2
      27 May 2026 23: 51
      Quote: Ragnar
      Reconnaissance, in principle, presupposes silence... And the fact that they didn't burden the "Bayan" with artillery is correct...

      Upgrading Bayan's artillery was entirely feasible given the existing 8-inch guns. Replacing the four 6-inch guns with 8-inch guns in the central casemate and reducing the number of 75mm guns, moving all 6-inch guns to the upper deck, would have allowed for a broadside weight comparable to that of the Assamoid cruisers. Why this wasn't done for the second series of cruisers is beyond me.
      1. +4
        28 May 2026 06: 33
        Quote: clou
        I don’t understand why this wasn’t done for the second series of cruisers.

        Because the fleet was essentially nonexistent, and ships were needed immediately. Changing the design would inevitably increase construction time and cost. The ships were subsequently modernized—the 75mm guns were completely eliminated, replaced with 1-203mm guns in the shield mount and 4-152mm guns on the deck. The Rossiya and Gromoboi were similarly reinforced—all the small guns were removed and the ships were loaded with 6" and 8" guns.
        1. 0
          28 May 2026 19: 53
          Quote: Rurikovich
          Changing the project in any case means an increase in construction time and cost.

          Changing the casemate pedestal to accommodate a different gun size and the dimensions of the elevator arbours wouldn't have taken much time or money. They just weren't planning on fighting in the next batch, but they had to.
          1. +2
            28 May 2026 20: 34
            Quote: clou
            Changing the pedestal in the casemate to fit a different gun size and the dimensions of the gazebos in the elevator would not have taken much time or money.

            You're wrong to think that would be all there is to it. And you're wrong to think that replacing the 4x6-inch hulls with a pair of 8x8-inch hulls would dramatically strengthen the cruiser.
          2. +4
            28 May 2026 22: 38
            Quote: clou
            change the pedestal in the casemate to fit a different gun size and the dimensions of the arbors in the elevator

            It's all much more serious than you think. We have to.
            1. Enlarge the casemate. This is the most expensive.
            2. Strengthen the deck.
            3. Remodel the cellar and ammunition supply.
            4. Redesign fire control devices.
            5. Then it may turn out that the generators need to be replaced with more powerful ones or something else...
            1. +2
              28 May 2026 22: 49
              You know, I once thought about what could have been made from Bayan and Pallada, the construction of which dragged on beyond all measure.
              Well, first of all, replace steam engines with turbines, especially since such a project actually existed.
              Of course, this is unlikely to increase speed (it might even decrease it). But training ships for turbine operators are also needed.
              Secondly, since the existing turrets can't accommodate new 50-caliber guns, they can be removed entirely. I mean the turrets. Instead, there are 8"/50mm deck mounts. Another four of the same, also on the upper deck, replace the casemate 152mm and 75mm guns. (In terms of weight, it's a bit of a stretch.) And one more, in place of the 4-inch gun that was installed during the 1915-16 modernization.
              A sort of "Underhawkins" feel
              1. +1
                28 May 2026 23: 13
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                A sort of "Underhawkins"

                For WWI, it would be an excellent ship that could fire at minesweepers from a long distance.
              2. 0
                29 May 2026 00: 54
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                You're wrong to think that would be all there is to it. And you're wrong to think that replacing the 4x6-inch hulls with a pair of 8x8-inch hulls would dramatically strengthen the cruiser.

                I'm talking about replacing 4 with 4. 2 guns in a casemate on each side.

                Quote: rytik32
                1. Enlarge the casemate. This is the most expensive.
                2. Strengthen the deck.
                3. Remodel the cellar and ammunition supply.
                4. Redesign fire control devices.
                5. Then it may turn out that the generators need to be replaced with more powerful ones or something else...

                During WWI, cruisers in the Baltic Sea underwent two main battery upgrades, with 8-inch guns being enlarged and then the 6-inch guns being replaced with 130mm. And this didn't cause any apocalypse, given the casemate-deck mounting of manually operated guns.
                1. +3
                  29 May 2026 12: 01
                  Quote: clou
                  During WWI, cruisers in the Baltic had their main guns replaced twice, with 8-inch guns being increased and then the 6-inch guns being replaced with 130mm guns.

                  Colleague, I hope you're healthy, but 130mm shells are smaller than 152mm and can be fed from the same harnesses. 203mm shells simply won't fit, both in size and weight.
                  Furthermore, the muzzle energy and consequently the recoil of the 8" are many times greater, so deck reinforcements will be necessary. But that's not the worst of it. The 8" itself is larger and heavier. And it won't exactly be impossible to fit into the casemate of a 6" gun, but it will leave no room for the crew.
                  As for the Rossiya (a huge 12000-ton vessel), during its modernization, the forecastle had to be cut off to compensate for the required weight. So, yes, it didn't cause the apocalypse, but it did cause a lot of trouble!
                  1. 0
                    29 May 2026 17: 27
                    Colleague, I hope you're healthy, but 130mm shells are smaller than 152mm and can be fed from the same harnesses. 203mm shells simply won't fit in them, either in terms of size or weight.

                    Ivan. Of course, reinforcements and modifications will be necessary, but I'm sorry to say I don't believe they need to increase the size of the feed pipe from the magazine to the gun. It's no longer than a six-inch shell casing, even if enlarged, and remodeling the gazebos and reinforcing the deck is such a small thing compared to the construction of new cruisers. Look at how they bullied Andrei and Pavel, the commander couldn't take it anymore and wrote a letter to the Admiralty.
                    And it’s not that the six-inch gun won’t be in the casemate at all, but there won’t be any room left for the crew.

                    I pulled out Melnikov's Bayan-2 and looked at the drawing of the central casemate for the 6-inch guns. It's roughly 1/4 the width of a 23-meter cruiser. It's slightly smaller in area than my one-room apartment, and if you remove the nearby 3-inch gun, you could build a dance floor next to the gun.
                    1. +3
                      29 May 2026 17: 59
                      Quote: clou
                      I got Melnikov on Bayan2 and looked at the drawing of the central casemate of 6-inch guns.

                      Dear colleague. 3 pictures.
                      1) six-inch Canet.
                      2) eight-inch deck gun on the Bayan
                      There are people nearby so that the scale is clear.
                      3) "Gromoboy" after modernization. Casemates for both 6" and 8" guns were built on its deck. The difference, including in height, is obvious.
                      Want an extra 8" - put it on the upper deck!
                    2. +1
                      31 May 2026 06: 42
                      Talking about the ease of modifications is easy if you have electric welding and gas cutting. And when it comes to riveting... Well, I don't know... It's just a lot of money. I don't think the approaches for Civil War-era riverboats would work on seagoing ships.
              3. +3
                30 May 2026 23: 19
                A sort of "Underhawkins"

                Yes, yes, colleague, I am also for it. laughing This is what I used to do.
                But the idea there was "less (in size) but more (in quantity)", instead of 6 t. BRK
                I wonder what the 1TO would do if it had more cruisers (of some kind) than it does in real life. Or would they just sit there again?
                1. +3
                  1 June 2026 08: 28
                  Quote: anzar
                  I wonder what the 1TO would do if it had more cruisers (of some kind) than it does in real life. Or would they just sit there again?

                  The main problem with the 1st TOE wasn't the ships. The main problem was the command.
  3. +6
    27 May 2026 11: 01
    Thank you very much for the article! I especially appreciated the information about the comparison of sea trials, although the author and others familiar with the topic have already written about it on this site, so a reminder is in order. And the information about Fuji and Poltava was especially refreshing.
    Incidentally, the Senior Sailor was once perplexed by the Vacanto-Occupanto records; perhaps that's where they originated? It's unlikely that the Chilean battleships would be cruising at their 20 knots in everyday life.
    Well, I was delighted by the prospect of a new series about VOK)))
    1. +3
      27 May 2026 11: 34
      Quote: Trapper7
      Thank you very much for the article!

      You're welcome!
      Quote: Trapper7
      I was especially pleased with the information about the comparison of sea trials, although the Author himself and other people familiar with the topic have already written about this on this site,

      Of course. But, without a doubt, it would have been worthwhile to compile all of this into one article so that the argument would take on a complete form.
      Quote: Trapper7
      By the way, at one time the Senior Sailor was perplexed about the records of Vacanto-Occupanto, maybe they grow from there?

      It may well be.
      Quote: Trapper7
      Well, I was delighted by the prospect of a new series about VOK)))

      It's not going to happen anytime soon:))) I still hope that I'll find a job in my field soon, and then there won't be much time left for articles, especially in the first year of work, when you're just getting to grips with all the processes
      1. +3
        27 May 2026 11: 47
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        It's not going to happen anytime soon:))) I still hope that I'll find a job in my field soon, and then there won't be much time left for articles, especially in the first year of work, when you're just getting to grips with all the processes

        Well, let me wish you the best of luck in finding a high-paying job in your field that won't take up too much of your time.
        1. +2
          27 May 2026 11: 50
          Thank you very much:)))))) I also hope for the best, but for now I have free time - I write a couple of articles a week.
  4. 0
    27 May 2026 11: 06
    They should have been ordered in Germany. Of the destroyers ordered and built abroad, the best were German-built, and the worst were French-built. And Askold, Bogatyr, and Novik were not bad cruisers either.
    1. +3
      27 May 2026 11: 26
      +++ There was a time when I was the happy owner of a VAZ-2107, and all the girls in the area were mine...
      And then I saw Gotsmanov and Zygmantovich, who were drinking German beer from German tin cans, sitting on the trunk of a 123 mother of his German Mercedes...
      1. +2
        27 May 2026 11: 28
        And my whole world collapsed...
    2. +3
      27 May 2026 11: 37
      Quote: vitaliy20091959
      I should have ordered it from Germany.

      Maybe, but I don't think the Germans could have done better.
      Quote: vitaliy20091959
      Yes, and Askold, Bogatyr, Novik were not bad cruisers.

      I wouldn't call Askold and Novik particularly successful. Bogatyr is much better than Askold, our "pebbles" are better than Novik, and the best of those four "second-rank" players was probably Boyarin.
      1. +2
        27 May 2026 12: 07
        Wow, I thought I was the only one who was sick...
      2. 0
        27 May 2026 12: 36
        What was so good about the Boyarin, with its speed of 22 knots and armament like the Novik?
        1. +3
          27 May 2026 13: 23
          Quote: TermNachTER
          What was so good about the Boyarin, with its speed of 22 knots and armament like the Novik?


          Admiral Alekseyev, His Majesty's Viceroy in the Far East, gave the cruiser a favorable review: "A solidly built cruiser and a good seagoing vessel. A very efficient scout, in terms of coal consumption, but too much space has been devoted to officers' quarters, unnecessarily enlarging the hull." Squadron Commander Vice-Admiral Stark, after inspecting the arriving cruiser, noted that the Boyarin was in perfect condition after the long voyage. He also noted that the Danish-designed cruiser was very efficient in coal consumption and more reliable and robust than the heavily narrowed Novik, which "must slow down in rough weather against waves" and required special care to maintain its strength and reliability.
          1. 0
            27 May 2026 14: 36
            The Novik, with its 24-25 knots, could at least outrun the "dogs." And what about the Boyarin? The Dowager Empress Maria Feodorovna lobbied for the Boyarin's order. What else could Admiral Alekseyev say without getting his ass kicked? Especially since they were building a trinket for it, the Almaz. It's understandable that the officers' quarters on the poop deck were more comfortable than on other ships; what else could they fit there? Admiral Stark isn't a moron to criticize a ship that Her Imperial Majesty was pushing. How could it be profitable in terms of coal consumption if it had 16 Belleville boilers, like many other RIF ships? It would be fine if there were “Norman” boilers, like on the “Bogatyr”, or “Schulz-Thornycroft”, like on the “Askold”.
            1. +6
              27 May 2026 15: 09
              Quote: TermNachTER
              The Novik, with its 24-25 knots, could at least outrun the "dogs." What about the Boyarin?

              That's also a given. Most likely, the dogs were achieving their 23 knots under afterburner, while Boyarin was under natural thrust. And the half-knot difference required long hours of pursuit, during which Boyarin always managed to escape under the cover of the fleet. Which, incidentally, is what actually happened on January 27, 1904.
              1. 0
                27 May 2026 15: 42
                On January 27th, no one was chasing the Boyarin. That was the only incident; it later sank under rather murky circumstances. Drawing conclusions about its superior performance based on a single incident is not very reasonable.
                1. +1
                  27 May 2026 16: 28
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  On January 27, no one was chasing "Boyarin"

                  That's exactly it - there was no point. But there were dogs.
                  1. 0
                    27 May 2026 16: 43
                    The "dogs" were in the rear, so no one was chasing. As far as I understand, Togo didn't need to do any reconnaissance.
                    1. +1
                      27 May 2026 16: 59
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      As far as I understand, Togo didn't need to do any reconnaissance.

                      So you're not writing about reconnaissance, but about the destruction of Boyarin by a high-speed enemy.
                      1. 0
                        27 May 2026 19: 06
                        So that was the only moment; the Boyarin never participated in any more reconnaissance missions.
                  2. +3
                    27 May 2026 20: 17
                    Their only advantage is numbers. As Sergei Suliga wrote in his two-volume study of Japanese heavy cruisers, the performance of the "dogs" during the war was not highly praised. They were unseaworthy (say hello to the "Dianas"), had insufficient range, and poor stability. They lost speed in the slightest swell and became "wet," which practically deprived them of the ability to use their artillery. They "took a hit" poorly, suffering serious damage from one or two large-caliber or even medium-caliber shells. The British considered a minimum displacement of 6000 tons for ocean operations. The "Askold," with a broadside of six 6-inch guns, handled the "dogs" in the Yellow Sea. The "Diana" had a broadside of five guns. The "Kasagi" and "Chitose," theoretically, were more dangerous: they carried 8-inch guns. But these guns never hit a target; their displacement was larger, but not sufficient. And the armored cruisers, with their 15, 16, and 17 knots, couldn't catch the Dianas.
                    1. +1
                      28 May 2026 11: 09
                      It's not essential of course, but Askold has a broadside
                      there were 7 guns...
                      Based on the placement on the ship - 5 in the side mounts and 2 at the ends, firing on both sides...
                      1. +4
                        28 May 2026 11: 27
                        Quote: 65-73
                        It's not essential of course, but Askold has a broadside
                        there were 7 guns...

                        Don't take this as nitpicking, but ignoto is right—the Askold's broadside in the main battleship had exactly six 6-inch guns, as the cruiser was missing two six-inch guns, which had been removed for fortification purposes and hadn't been returned to the ship before the battle. So, Askold went into battle with 10 6-inch guns.
            2. +3
              27 May 2026 15: 12
              Dear Nikolai, according to the views of the time, the cruiser Boyarin could be used as a short-range reconnaissance vessel. A ship with a displacement of 2000 to 4000 tons needed only to approach the enemy at a distance of 9000 to 12000 meters for reconnaissance. Visibility of enemy ships depended on the observer's altitude and, consequently, the visible horizon.
              The Novik, with its 24-25 knots, could at least outrun the "dogs." And what about the Boyarin? The Dowager Empress Maria Feodorovna lobbied for the Boyarin's order. What else could Admiral Alekseyev say without getting his ass kicked in the ass?

              Between 1899 and 1902, neither the Japanese nor the Russian navies could know which ship or ships would be used in the Japanese navy for reconnaissance.
              1. 0
                27 May 2026 15: 36
                War is such a nasty thing, where everything doesn't happen as expected in theory. Therefore, assuming that the enemy will be detected in time and that we'll have time to escape with a knot or one and a half advantage is a very weak option. Especially since the enemy's guns have a much longer range—152-203 mm. By 1902, both the Japanese Navy and the 1st Pacific Fleet were already completing their formation, and the general outlines were already clear.
                1. 0
                  27 May 2026 16: 29
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  Therefore, assuming that the enemy will be detected in time and we will have time to escape with a node - one and a half advantages, is a very weak option.

                  This is a viable option, because the sea is not a street; they won't attack from around the corner. And the guns' rated ranges mattered little—it's not enough to just shoot; you also need to be able to hit at those ranges. Incidentally, if I remember correctly, the dogs never made a single confirmed hit with an 8-inch gun during the entire war.
                  1. 0
                    27 May 2026 16: 45
                    Do you ever get fog at sea? What about rain squalls? You emerge from the rain, and the side of the Asama is right in front of you.
                    1. +1
                      27 May 2026 17: 00
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      You emerge from the rain and there's an Asama jet right in front of your nose.

                      And then you're screwed, whether your speed is 25 knots or 22,5.
                    2. +2
                      27 May 2026 19: 18
                      So you have to ram, otherwise you'll carry this anachranism around with you all your life, and then this... the side of the "Asama" from the fog... "Wear it without taking it off" is guaranteed
                      1. +1
                        27 May 2026 20: 21
                        Why a bow torpedo tube? And there is no need to ram.
                      2. +1
                        29 May 2026 16: 28
                        Preparing and firing a TA takes a little time, as they say in Odessa, but when every second counts... I would ram...
                2. 0
                  27 May 2026 16: 35
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  Therefore, assuming that the enemy will be detected in time and we will have time to escape with a node - one and a half advantages, is a very weak option.

                  The scouts were divided into close and distant.
                  Moreover, the enemy has much longer-range guns - 152 - 203 mm

                  Why do you think so? This concerns 6-inch guns.
                  By 1902, both the Japanese fleet and the 1st TOE were already completing their formation and the general features were already clear.

                  The formation is considered complete when all ships or units are in designated deployment locations or ports.
                  1. 0
                    27 May 2026 16: 55
                    I don't recall there being a division of intelligence officers in the Russian Navy. There was simply "squadron intelligence officer."
                    The Kasagi and Chitos each had two 203mm guns and ten 120mm guns, and a speed of 22,5 knots. What are the Boyarin's chances of survival?
                    This has never happened and never will. The process of building the armed forces, including the navy, is continuous.
                    1. +1
                      27 May 2026 18: 13
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      I don’t remember that there was a division of intelligence officers in the Russian Air Force.

                      The division of scouts into close and long-range was planned when deciding to conduct a general engagement. This was a common tactic at the time across various navies.
                      He was simply a "squadron scout".
                      The Kasagi and Chitos each had two 203mm guns and ten 120mm guns, and a speed of 22,5 knots. What are the Boyarin's chances of survival?
                      This has never happened and never will. The process of building the armed forces, including the navy, is continuous.

                      According to tactical exercises conducted at the Nikolaev Naval Academy, a reconnaissance detachment was planned for the 1st TSE after its full formation. So the "dogs" couldn't have had a real advantage, but as we know, that didn't happen.
                      This has never happened and never will. The process of building the armed forces, including the navy, is continuous.

                      The creation of the Armed Forces as a whole should not be confused with the formation of individual units and squadrons.
                    2. +2
                      27 May 2026 19: 36
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      I don't recall there being a division of intelligence officers in the Russian Navy. There was simply "squadron intelligence officer."

                      Not quite an official division, but
                      6000niki - Distant
                      3000 - Nearby
                      https://keu-ocr.narod.ru/Cruisers/chap06.html
                      1. 0
                        28 May 2026 13: 59
                        Unofficially, perhaps. In reality, what were they doing? What if the Varyag hadn't been sunk in Chemulpo, with its speed of 16-17 knots? What were the Askold doing in Artur and the Bogatyr in Vladik?
                      2. +3
                        28 May 2026 15: 05
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        If the Varyag had not been sunk in Chemulpo, with its speed of 16 - 17 knots?

                        From time to time, I would be on duty like a "goddess" in a special nook made of sunken steamships and anti-mine nets in the outer roadstead, driving away particularly brazen destroyers.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        What was "Bogatyr" doing in Vladik?

                        It was standing in the dock.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Seriously, what were you doing?

                        But if it's completely "realistic," then the whole war didn't go as planned. request
                      3. 0
                        28 May 2026 15: 35
                        You yourself answered what started the discussion.
                      4. +1
                        28 May 2026 15: 37
                        Colleague, I'm specifically talking about "long-range/close-range reconnaissance"
              2. 0
                14 August 2026 10: 33
                Both the Novik and the Boyarin were commissioned and designed not as reconnaissance cruisers, but as dispatch vessels for squadron flagships. Their mission included permanently stationed at the flagship, rehearsing (duplicating the flagship's signals), protecting the flagship from destroyers, finishing off damaged enemy ships with torpedoes, and guarding the roadstead while the flagship was at base.
                1. 0
                  14 August 2026 14: 02
                  Quote: sergiogerasimo
                  Both the Novik and the Boyarin were commissioned and designed not as reconnaissance cruisers, but as dispatch vessels for squadron flagships. Their mission included permanently stationed at the flagship, rehearsing (duplicating the flagship's signals), protecting the flagship from destroyers, finishing off damaged enemy ships with torpedoes, and guarding the roadstead while the flagship was at base.

                  According to the report "On Practical Exercises in Strategy. The War with Japan in 1905," the cruisers Novik and Boyarin were also intended for enemy reconnaissance. See the attached scan.
                  1. -1
                    14 August 2026 17: 11
                    I wrote about the design and ordering process, which determined that these were merely dispatch ships, classified as second-rank cruisers. In Germany, this was the Gazelle. But for some reason, the "proposers" decided to misuse them, and as a result, both the First and Second Pacific Squadrons were defeated in battle, as their rehearsal ships were anywhere but near the flagships, and therefore the squadron flagships' signals were not detected.
                    1. 0
                      14 August 2026 18: 12
                      Quote: sergiogerasimo
                      I wrote about the design and order, due to which these were merely dispatch ships, classified as 2nd rank cruisers.

                      You're wrong.
                      In Germany, this was the Gazelle.

                      Apparently you have confused this ship with the cruiser "Hela".
                      " März lief auf der Werft der Actiengesellschaft Weser der für die Reichs-Marine erbaute aviso H. vom Stapel; das schiff erhielt den namen "HELA". ".
      3. 0
        27 May 2026 12: 49
        Boyarin? He wasn't very good at the design stage, and in operation, he was thoroughly criticized, no?
        1. +4
          27 May 2026 13: 10
          Quote: uber
          Boyarin? He wasn't very enthusiastic about the project.

          Yes.
          Quote: uber
          it was completely criticized during operation

          On the contrary. They praised it. The cruiser turned out to be sturdy, easy to handle, and with reliable engines.
        2. +7
          27 May 2026 13: 10
          Quote: uber
          Boyarin? He wasn't very good at the design stage, and in operation, he was thoroughly criticized, no?

          No. The Novik was only good on paper; other than speed, it had nothing special. The Boyarin was much more seaworthy due to its forecastle and poop deck, while the Novik lacked them. The Boyarin's main and rear guns were mounted higher, which was an advantage in rough weather. The Boyarin was much more stable as a gun platform, in part due to its bilge keels, which reduced pitching, while the Novik lacked these features. The Boyarin was better armored—for example, it had armored ammunition feeds to the guns, while the Novik lacked these. The Boyarin was more unsinkable, with a proper double bottom and cofferdams. The Boyarin's speed was lower, but it was still on par with the best Japanese fast ships, if not better—though we still have to see how long the "dogs" actually lasted.
          The boyar arrived in the Far East in perfect order and did not cause any complaints.
          Overall, Boyarin, while small and lightly armed, was still a cruiser. Novik, on the other hand, was essentially an oversized destroyer, not only underarmed but also prone to heavy rolling, making firing from it a real pain. Therefore, in combat, it was clearly inferior to Boyarin, although Boyarin's speed was perfectly adequate for its mission.
          1. +4
            27 May 2026 13: 22
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            And overall, Boyarin was, although small and poorly armed, still a cruiser.

            I've looked at so many of his photos and blueprints—two more 120mm guns just beg to be added instead of the 47mm. And with them, it would be quite possible to try against Tsushima...
            1. +1
              27 May 2026 15: 46
              That's what they did with the "precious stones." However, their speed was 24 knots, not 22 like the "Boyarin." Therefore, they are more understandable as a "squadron scout."
          2. +1
            27 May 2026 14: 14
            Thank you for your detailed answer! So, why did they put Novik's design for the construction of the Pearl and Emerald ships on the photocopier? If you don't mind explaining it briefly?
            1. +2
              27 May 2026 14: 38
              Quote: uber
              Then the question is, why did they put Novik’s project for the construction of the Pearl and Emerald in the Xerox machine?

              In short, that's how it was originally planned: a contract was signed with Schichau for the construction of one cruiser at a German shipyard and the transfer of the plans to us for construction at our shipyards. Well, then, as usual, it turned out that the transfer of plans was stipulated only in the Russian version of the contract, not in the German one, and in all cases of discrepancies, the German copy was to be used... Those German gentlemen are crooks, basically.
              But our guys didn't give in:)))) And a significant portion of the plans were simply... how can I put it this way... stolen:)))))) Well, so what? When you live among wolves, you howl like a wolf. And, it must be said, we corrected some of the original's shortcomings in the "stones," which resulted in a decrease in speed and an increase in displacement.
              1. +4
                27 May 2026 15: 40
                So it turns out our MTK wasn't completely flawed. They screwed up the contract themselves by not checking the German version, and then...um... fixed it themselves.
              2. 0
                27 May 2026 15: 45
                So, Boyarin was originally planned as a one-off piece, not a prototype? They ordered it from Denmark, apparently to please the Dowager Empress's relatives...
          3. -1
            27 May 2026 15: 44
            The feed pipes have 25mm armor. What did it protect against?
            1. +1
              27 May 2026 16: 30
              From shrapnel, from a nearby explosion. The lack of armor doesn't protect against anything.
              1. -2
                27 May 2026 16: 49
                To put it more simply, the presence or absence of these 25mm calibers doesn't matter. Incidentally, regarding the Novik's weak hull, the Japanese used it for six years and saw no problems with its durability, because the Novik's hull is constructed of high-strength steel, not ordinary Siemens-open-hearth steel like the Boyarin.
                1. +3
                  27 May 2026 17: 03
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  To put it more simply, the presence or absence of these 25 mm does not affect anything.

                  You can. You can say anything stupid, but as we all know, words won't do it.
                  And no one cancelled the importance of anti-fragmentation protection (especially against Japanese shells); moreover, they improvised it, laying out all sorts of coal sacks and so on.
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  because the Novik's body is made of high-strength steel

                  Yeah. True, the deck bends when you walk, but otherwise it's as strong as you can get...
                  1. 0
                    27 May 2026 19: 41
                    Bags of coal?))) Have you seen the explosion of a 203mm HE shell? True, the Pion's is a bit heavier, but it doesn't matter. Everything within a 50-70 meter radius is blown away, as if nothing was there.
                    The Novik's upper deck is 7 mm thick, with 12 mm in the right places. It all rests on beams and carlings. How much do you have to weigh for the deck to flex under you? As for the deck "moving" in waves, that's true of all long enough vessels.
                    1. +3
                      27 May 2026 20: 02
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      Bags of coal?))) Have you seen the explosion of a 203mm HE shell?

                      Those who saw them, can you imagine, they arranged such armored defense:))))
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      Within a radius of 50 - 70 m everything is blown away, as if nothing was there.

                      Because you need to know how the explosives of that time worked, not today's. Then you won't write nonsense about 50-70 meters.
                      1. -2
                        28 May 2026 13: 41
                        20 kg of shimoza is 20 kg, and while the explosive effect may be lower, 25 mm of armor is a mere pittance.
                      2. +4
                        28 May 2026 14: 23
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        20 kg of shimoza is 20 kg, and let the explosive effect be lower

                        And if someone had taught match-making, they would have known that the 6-inch deck shields were exactly 25,4 mm thick and, according to reviews, they handled anti-splinter protection well.
                    2. +5
                      27 May 2026 23: 48
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      Bags of coal?)))

                      Damage reports for the Orel indicate that this protection worked, meaning there was virtually no damage behind it.
                      1. -1
                        28 May 2026 13: 42
                        In what specific places? From what shells?
                      2. +4
                        28 May 2026 15: 07
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        In what specific places? From what shells?

                        For example, hitting the bunk nets on the spar deck.
                        A hit from the port side, between the unarmored side and the armor of the aft battery. It was clearly a 12-inch shell (the hole was the height of the entire deck). The coal protection behind the unarmored side had been activated. Even the sailor survived, only he couldn't get his boots out of the coal that had buried him.
                      3. -2
                        28 May 2026 16: 35
                        Whose data are you using to calculate the hits, Campbell's or Kostenko's? Which hits are you reporting? Around 3:00 PM, two 305mm shells struck the Oryol near frame 87 on the port side. Both detonated normally. The damage was severe, with casualties among the damage party.
                      4. +1
                        28 May 2026 16: 48
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        according to Campbell

                        Campbell only listed the caliber of a few hits, and didn't provide any diagrams. How can I take hits from him? No way!
                        Kostenko has both diagrams and a list of 140 hits with caliber indicated.
                        I estimated the caliber by the size of the hole. Japanese 8-inch shells didn't produce holes from deck to deck, so everything is clear here.
                      5. -1
                        28 May 2026 18: 22
                        Campbell compiled all the data on Orel, starting with Pakenham and including the Japanese. Therefore, his description is considered the most objective. Kostenko, I believe, somewhat exaggerated the number of hits.
                      6. +2
                        28 May 2026 22: 24
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        starting from Pakenham

                        He misrepresented Pakenham. Compare the caliber estimates for the same hits.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        and including the Japanese

                        Did he know Bungo? That's why he couldn't work with the Japanese.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        It is believed that his description is the most objective

                        It was once believed.
                        Kostenko, I believe, somewhat exaggerated the number of hits

                        Possibly, but not by much.
                        The caliber can be debated, but the fact that unarmored units were hit is almost 100% confirmed by photographs or Japanese data.
                      7. 0
                        29 May 2026 11: 47
                        I have a picture somewhere—a Japanese one, judging by the hieroglyphs—where they show hits on the Oryol. Or, more accurately, all the holes in the Oryol's hull. From this picture, I understand that not all of these holes were caused by shell hits. Some of them are shrapnel, caused by explosions inside or outside. Japanese shells sometimes exploded upon impact with the water, so close-in explosions could cause shrapnel hits. So, if you count the hits, there are somewhere between 70 and 80 of them. If you count all the holes in the hull, there are more than 140.
                      8. +2
                        29 May 2026 12: 41
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Some of them are fragments that were formed as a result of explosions inside or outside

                        Of course, but these holes are in the unarmored side and superstructures
                      9. 0
                        29 May 2026 13: 30
                        Judging by the picture and the descriptions, in the aft part of the left side, fragments formed after the explosion of 305-mm shells pierced both the armored deck and the upper armor belt.
                      10. +2
                        29 May 2026 13: 45
                        Obviously not. The diagram and the main gun turret both show hit marks, so should we assume the turret was penetrated? These are sketches of damage, including dents.
                      11. -1
                        29 May 2026 14: 18
                        Are you saying that all the marks on the diagram are just dents in the armor or unarmored plating? I'm saying that if you count all the holes in the Orel's plating, on both sides, there are more than 140 of them.
                      12. +3
                        29 May 2026 14: 55
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Can you say that all the marks on the diagram are just potholes in the armor or in the unarmored plating?

                        I can confirm that the diagram shows no fragmentation penetration of the armor.
                      13. -2
                        29 May 2026 15: 05
                        What is your statement based on?
                      14. +2
                        29 May 2026 16: 19
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        What is your statement based on?

                        On the assertions that the Orel's armor (belt, deck) was not penetrated anywhere, which is directly written about, for example, by Danilov
                      15. -2
                        29 May 2026 16: 39
                        So what does Pakenham write about, having had the opportunity to calmly and thoughtfully walk around the ship when there was nothing superfluous on it?
                      16. +2
                        29 May 2026 17: 41
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        What then does Pakenham write about?

                        About what?
                      17. -2
                        29 May 2026 18: 07
                        About the damage to the Eagle. It's been a while since I read it, though, so I don't remember exactly; I'll have to rewatch it.
                      18. +2
                        29 May 2026 13: 46
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Therefore, if you count hits, there are somewhere between 70 and 80 of them.

                        Can you provide a list of them?
                        I can provide a list of hits that I estimate to be 12-inch or 8-12-inch. This list contains approximately 35-40 hits. The "spread" of approximately 5 hits is due to hits to the armor belt, which only Kostenko/Shvede have, so it's questionable.
                      19. -1
                        29 May 2026 14: 20
                        Why aren't you counting the 152mm shells? They weren't fired or didn't hit? Or didn't the 152mm shells create shrapnel when they exploded?
                      20. -1
                        29 May 2026 14: 25
                        P.S. Why do you always focus on Kostenko? As far as I understand, the ship's hull mechanic, Rooms, was in charge of the survivability battle. His memoirs would be interesting to read, but it's a shame he didn't leave them.
                      21. +2
                        29 May 2026 14: 40
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Why don't you count 152mm?

                        Because there are too many of them, I don’t have that much free time.
                        I should at least count the big ones...
                        And why do you always insist on Kostenko?

                        Because Kostenko left behind a lot of material, and not all of it has been published.
                        Rooms. It would be interesting to read his memoirs, it's a pity he didn't leave them.

                        Rooms left a very interesting article about the "Eagle" in the Battle of Tsushima.
                      22. +4
                        28 May 2026 16: 17
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        In what specific places? From what shells?

                        Nikolay, if we're going to get down to it, could you please give examples of when 25mm armor failed to hold back Japanese shell fragments?
                      23. 0
                        28 May 2026 17: 08
                        What caliber of shrapnel are you talking about? 305mm, 254mm, 203mm?
                      24. +2
                        28 May 2026 17: 14
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        What caliber of shrapnel are you talking about? 305mm, 254mm, 203mm?

                        At your discretion.
                      25. -2
                        28 May 2026 17: 26
                        On the Aurora, the shield of the 152-mm gun - 25,4 mm. was penetrated by a fragment of an unspecified shell, either 152-mm or 203-mm.
                      26. +1
                        28 May 2026 18: 03
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        On the Aurora, the shield of the 152-mm gun was pierced by a fragment of an unidentified shell.

                        I just ran through the damage and don't see anything like that. Where did you get that from?
                      27. 0
                        28 May 2026 18: 10
                        Report of Captain Ramsey S. Logan, Commanding Officer, Ohio, who inspected the Aurora upon her arrival at Manila.
                      28. 0
                        28 May 2026 18: 25
                        P.S. Sorry, it wasn't Ramsay, it was Levitt.
                      29. +2
                        28 May 2026 21: 38
                        It's very strange that ours didn't report this. Even stranger that this captain identified a shrapnel hit. I wonder how?
                      30. 0
                        29 May 2026 11: 05
                        Did our guys describe all the holes on the Aurora, or just the hits? I don't think the captain personally examined all the holes, but only signed a report.
                      31. 0
                        29 May 2026 11: 37
                        The Spanish-American War ended seven years ago. I imagine there were officers on the Asiatic Squadron who participated in it and saw various holes, if not on their own ships, then on Spanish ones. Again, if we see a hole in the armor, not round or nearly round, but some other shape? How did it form? There are two possibilities: a shrapnel hit, or drunken sailors gouging it out with a boatswain's knife.
                      32. 0
                        29 May 2026 18: 22
                        https://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=300459

                        Testimony of naval engineer K.K.I. Junior Assistant Shipbuilder Kostenko.

                        "The armored deck above the battery, 1 1/16" thick, was pierced in two places by fragments from 12" shells that exploded on the deck above. One fragment was later found in the battery. It weighed about 2 poods. The holes were small, 18" x 6".

                        Testimony of Senior Officer Captain 2nd Rank Shvede.

                        "12" shells, exploding near the side, simultaneously penetrated the deck below. The 1 1/16" armor deck was easily penetrated by fragments from 12" shells."

                        1 1/16" is ~27 mm.
                2. +5
                  27 May 2026 19: 17
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  The Japanese used it for 6 years.

                  Do you think this is long?
                  Moreover, the Japs used a lot of Elswicks, for which a weak hull is the norm. So, upon receiving the Novik, the first thing they did was get rid of one of the engines, and, consequently, the ability to reach speeds exceeding 20 knots.
                  1. 0
                    28 May 2026 13: 43
                    The engine was removed because it wasn't needed on a training ship. How did this affect the hull's strength?
                    1. +4
                      28 May 2026 15: 25
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      The car was removed because it was not needed on a training ship.

                      As well as the speed you prioritize, even though they didn't have any truly fast cruisers.
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      How did this affect the strength of the hull?

                      Judging by the fact that the ship was quickly written off, no way. request
                      Just for comparison, the Naniwa-class cruisers, with a slightly larger displacement, also with a weak hull, a complete lack of a double bottom and other "delights" characteristic of the first generation of Elswicks, served for almost 30 years before their destruction.
                      1. -1
                        28 May 2026 15: 41
                        We weren't talking about speed, but about the strength of the Novik's hull.
                        The Naniwa didn't last 30 years of service, perishing on the rocks off Urup Island. In fact, the fact that the Japanese used these old ships to the point of complete wear and tear wasn't because they had good lives, but because their hulls were strong.
                      2. +1
                        28 May 2026 17: 50
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The Japanese used "old-timers"

                        And "Suzuya" was decommissioned in 1913, that is, 12 years after the first commissioning and 5 years after the restoration repairs.
                      3. -1
                        28 May 2026 18: 18
                        There could be a number of reasons for this, and we don't know whether the strength of the Novik's hull is the reason or something else. As far as I know, no work was done to the hull. They replaced the boilers, removed the stern engine, and maybe did something else—I don't know.
                3. 0
                  14 August 2026 10: 38
                  That's not true. It was precisely in the Japanese navy that its hull began to split down the middle.
            2. +2
              27 May 2026 23: 56
              The fragments from the melinite shells are small and even this armor could withstand them
              1. 0
                28 May 2026 13: 45
                The blast wave deforms the ship's structures. Before that, a 100-kg blast could penetrate the side and bulkheads, and even 25 mm of armor.
          4. +5
            29 May 2026 18: 09
            I definitely agree... One Soviet aircraft designer said that an ugly plane won't fly well... I won't bother naming who... Just my opinion... The "Bayan" looks like a cruiser, the "Boyarin" looks like a cruiser, the "Novik" looks like a destroyer, the "Nissin" looks like a battleship... That's how they should fly...
  5. +5
    27 May 2026 11: 50
    Good afternoon.
    Dear Andrey, thank you for continuing.
    Overall, it can be concluded that our Naval Ministry, by ordering the Bayan, received a cruiser capable of serving as a reconnaissance vessel alongside a squadron of modern battleships. Moreover, its daily speed of 20 knots, which the cruiser could maintain for extended periods, can perhaps be considered minimally adequate. Meanwhile, Japanese cruisers had a maximum speed of 18 knots, and in this respect, they were roughly equivalent to the Russian armored cruisers of the Diana class.

    The armored cruiser Bayan lived up to its intended purpose as an armored reconnaissance vessel. It could approach an enemy squadron to a range of 9000–10000 meters and determine its composition. In the year it was laid down, firing practice was conducted at ranges of up to 4000 meters, with a maximum of 5000 meters. Firing at greater ranges was considered impractical due to the low probability of hitting. The Asamas could have been dispatched in pursuit, but in that case, given their actual speed, these cruisers could easily have been hit by the battleships' shells.
    1. +4
      27 May 2026 13: 13
      Hello, dear Igor!
      Quote: 27091965i
      The armored cruiser Bayan lived up to its purpose as an armored reconnaissance vessel.

      This, of course, is the case.
  6. 0
    27 May 2026 12: 22
    Good article. Oh, if only Peter the Great (not the old one) had been there. He would have crushed everyone there. A Fort rocket falling vertically into a battleship's boiler room is incurable. I read an alternative version of this.
    1. +3
      27 May 2026 15: 43
      The Japanese will read this and send Yamato to their alternate universe. And Yamato will take everyone out without any missiles...
      1. +3
        27 May 2026 16: 36
        Quote: Victor Masyuk
        The Japanese will read it and send Yamata to their alternative reality.

        I have a strong suspicion that we live in the universe of some Japanese alternative writer who has rewritten the RYaV. Incidentally, one of my first stories, a short alt-fiction piece, is about this.
        https://alternathistory.ru/yaponskaya-alternativa-bud-ona-neladna/?ysclid=mpo3tilk2m491493819
        A trial run, so to speak:))))))
        1. 0
          27 May 2026 16: 56
          I don't remember the author or the title. A link to an alternative history in which Admiral Vitgeft fights the Japanese alternativeists was on the website you mentioned. You can read it on Author Today. It turned out to be a quite readable alternative history. So you're not the only one who's tried to describe this idea in literary form.
          By the way, I'd love to read something new in the alternative history genre from your pen. The verb "over the Baltic" is brilliant... I'm sure your readers will support it.
          1. +2
            27 May 2026 17: 04
            Quote: Victor Masyuk
            So you are not the only one who has tried to describe this idea in literature.

            Who would have doubted it:))))))
            Quote: Victor Masyuk
            By the way, I would like to read something new in the alternative history genre from your pen.

            It's very labor-intensive and there's practically no pay, so the work goes very, very slowly, and I often put it off for months.
          2. +4
            27 May 2026 19: 19
            Quote: Victor Masyuk
            I don't remember the author or the title.

            Denis Silaev "Becoming a shadow for evil."
            Quote: Victor Masyuk
            By the way, I would like to read something new.

            Well, Andrey is not the only one. feel
            1. +3
              28 May 2026 05: 03
              Ivan, I read your works with great pleasure. wink
        2. 0
          27 May 2026 20: 31
          Nowadays, many alternative theorists have emerged. Mostly, catastrophists.
          In their view, real history is much shorter. Real events that can be somehow identified begin with the Crimean War.
          Japan begins in 1868, with the so-called "Meiji Revolution".
          Before this, there was no "Japanese state." The so-called "Japanese islands" are the southern islands of the Kuril chain. A similar point of view applies to China. There are no burial sites of representatives of the yellow race older than 170 years on Chinese territory.
  7. 0
    27 May 2026 21: 00
    A big request to the author: when comparing ships, please include their prices, if possible. I understand this information is much less common than, say, armor thickness, but it would still be nice to include it if it exists. Otherwise, it's hard to understand, for example, why people criticize pretty awesome ships like the Alaska.

    However, there was also chaos abroad. One good thing: defective products weren't accepted, but sent away for rework.

    This contrasts sharply with the same Fuji, whose “forty-mile” tests took less than 3 hours.
    However, 3 hours of good running time is quite sufficient for a fight.
    1. +1
      28 May 2026 11: 00
      Quote: bk0010
      However, 3 hours of good running time is quite sufficient for a fight.

      The only problem is that the tests were still conducted in artificial conditions, and the fact that the ship passed them at such speed did not guarantee that it would be able to reach such a speed in battle for even three hours. Or that it would be able to reach it at all.
      Quote: bk0010
      A big request to the author: when comparing ships, please provide their prices, if possible.

      It's complicated, unfortunately. While it applies to our ships, it doesn't apply to foreign ones...
      1. +2
        1 June 2026 22: 41
        There is an interesting article in the newspaper about the tests of the Bayan.
        https://disk.yandex.ru/d/H-f3kJf44bVSuA
  8. -1
    27 May 2026 21: 42
    The only difference between forced and natural draft is the presence of fans that supply additional air to the firebox. Naturally, so-called forced draft is a much more suitable option for a naval vessel than natural draft, which depends entirely on the length of the chimney.

    Pomnitsa Andrei was literally in tears when he talked about the hole in the Tsarevich's chimney. wassat
    Allegedly, this was the only reason he couldn't carry out the order to proceed to Vladivostok, and why he was interned, abandoned by his commander, who, however, managed to forbid the senior officer from preparing the ship for departure. Although the Tsarevich also had ventilators.
  9. +1
    28 May 2026 07: 27
    If it was designed as a reconnaissance aircraft, was it even needed? It's important to consider that radio communications didn't exist at the time the contract was signed, and no one could even imagine it would be developed. How and why would reconnaissance be carried out without it?

    What was he scouting in Arthur? He was always busy with something else! The only one who was useful was Boyarin, who warned of the Japanese fleet's approach to Arthur on the first day of the war. Our scouts didn't do anything useful anymore!

    At high-level meetings, the wise admirals believed our fleet would systematically engage in reconnaissance; there was no other way. But at Tsushima, Rozhestvensky placed Svetlana, Ural, and Almaz at the tail of the squadron to protect the transports, and ordered Zhemchug and Izumrud to drive off the destroyers. That's all the reconnaissance we had!

    If our fleet wasn't really engaged in reconnaissance, but rather in other missions, then maybe we don't need reconnaissance? We need to build ships for real needs, but we've built a ton of ships not for combat, but for something else entirely!

    So Bayan wasn't enough for them, so they just went and replicated it! What brains, there's no words!!!
    1. +2
      28 May 2026 08: 06
      Quote: Theorist
      If in reality our fleet wasn't engaged in reconnaissance, but was solving some other tasks, then maybe reconnaissance aircraft weren't needed?

      The question is legitimate, but the answer is that they are needed, and in the same PA there was a serious shortage of them.
      The purpose of reconnaissance cruisers is not only to reconnoiter the enemy but also to prevent the enemy from reconnoitring their own forces. At both the ZhM and Tsushima, our cruisers were too few in number for this task.
      In fact, the 1st Squadron had only two encounters with the enemy fleet. You mentioned one (and Boyarin was appropriate there), but in the second case, the Japanese superiority in cruisers was too great to conduct reconnaissance or disrupt enemy reconnaissance. Moreover, Bayan was damaged and did not sail with the squadron.
      As for Rozhestvensky, he sought to remain unnoticed for as long as possible, and scouts would warn Togo in advance of the Russian squadron's approach. It was a very specific situation, when the weakest fleet was forced to break through a narrow strait against a powerful enemy.
      Quote: Theorist
      It's important to remember that at the time the contract was signed, radio communications didn't exist, and no one could have imagined they would appear. How and why would they conduct reconnaissance without them?

      Of course, to detect the enemy, you need to know where they are. And you can report them using flag signals once you're back within sight of your main forces.
      1. +3
        28 May 2026 08: 54
        Good morning.
        If it was designed as a reconnaissance aircraft, was it even needed? It's important to consider that radio communications didn't exist at the time the contract was signed, and no one could even imagine it would be developed. How and why would reconnaissance be carried out without it?

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Of course, to detect the enemy, you need to know where they are. And you can report them using flag signals once you're back within sight of your main forces.

        This is precisely why close-in reconnaissance aircraft were needed; they were positioned between the main force and the long-range reconnaissance aircraft. But this was only for the purpose of searching for an enemy squadron for combat.
      2. +1
        28 May 2026 13: 28
        A very specific situation when weakest the fleet is forced to break through a narrow strait the strongest the enemy

        Why is the Japanese fleet the "strongest"? It has one fewer battleship with modern artillery than the 2nd ToE (not counting the Oslyaba). Probably because of the presence of the "Asamoids," for which colleague rytik32 wrote:nothing really was achieved in any battle."))
        And about the "self-fear" of Russians scouts nothing to say))
        1. +2
          28 May 2026 13: 47
          Quote: anzar
          Why is the Japanese fleet "the strongest"?

          Weird question.
          Quote: anzar
          Probably due to the presence of the "Asamoids," for whom colleague rytik32 wrote that "they didn't really achieve anything in any battle."

          Let's not exaggerate:))))) The main forces—the four Japanese attack boats—were larger and more powerful than our Borodino-class submarines. Of our other eight ships, four were weaker than the Asamoids—these were the BRBOs and the Nakhimov. This doesn't even take into account the quality of our shells... And yet, the Japanese main forces were significantly faster than ours.
          So even if we compare the main forces, the Japanese have the advantage. But what about the overwhelming advantage in cruisers? And the absolute advantage in destroyers?
          1. +2
            28 May 2026 14: 50
            The main forces - 4 Japanese EBRs - were larger and stronger than our Borodino men.
            As a nitpick, 3 EBR, Fuji is weaker in my opinion.
            1. +3
              28 May 2026 15: 09
              Quote: Alexander Morozov
              As a nitpick, 3 EBR, Fuji is weaker in my opinion.

              Accepted:)
          2. 0
            30 May 2026 22: 53
            Weird question.

            Your statement is probably not entirely accurate. It's probably not at all...
            The British navy was/was considered the "strongest" navy in those years. The Japanese weren't second or even third. And the Russian navy wasn't the "weakest" at all. There are plenty of other contenders for that title.
            Of our other 8 ships, 4 were weaker than the Asamoids - these were the BRBO and the Nakhimov.

            What about the other four? Well, those are more like BRBOs in terms of the technical condition (of the guns).
            This doesn't even take into account the quality of our shells...

            That's true, just like all the other flaws and shortcomings. But none of this makes RIF "weaker." And Rozhdestvensky didn't think so either.
            1. +1
              31 May 2026 07: 34
              Quote: anzar
              The "strongest" fleet in those years was/was considered to be the British one.

              Your knowledge of Russian is failing you. "Silneyshiy" (strongest) is used not only to mean "the strongest" but also "stronger," and the same is true for "Slabeyshiy" (weakest).
              Quote: anzar
              And what about the other 4?

              That's bad. Considering the quality of their shells, both battleships, armed with old guns, are at best equal. Only Oslyabya and Sisoei are better.
              Quote: anzar
              Well, those BRBOs are more likely due to the technical condition (of the guns)

              No. A ship half the size is not better.
              Quote: anzar
              And Rozhdestvensky didn't think so either))

              Rozhdestvensky stated repeatedly that his fleet was weaker than the Japanese one, and significantly
              1. +1
                1 June 2026 08: 32
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Only Oslyabya and Sisoj are better

                I still have doubts about Sisoi... One on one with Asama, under a hail of high-explosive rapid-fire weapons.
  10. +1
    28 May 2026 13: 15
    ++ Your speed comparison is correct, and the Russian approach to testing is more comprehensive. But British tricks allow us to evaluate the hull lines. The British were very good at this (test tanks, etc.), while the French were poor. The high power of the engines didn't help either: Jean d'Arc 33,000 hp, less than 22 knots; L. Gambet 27,500 hp, 22,5 knots. on trials...
    Thus, during the tests of the Japanese battleship Fuji, which will be described below, the pressure in the boiler rooms was increased to one and a half atmosphere.

    This is incredible! It's not a machine, but some kind of pressure chamber)) And what kind of fans could generate such pressure?)) Most likely, there is an error in the (translation) of units of measurement.
    Of course, the designers built a certain "safety margin" into the boilers, which allowed them to withstand the forced...

    Supercharging and forcing are two different things. In the early 90s, Franks used (moderate) fixed Pressurization to make small, low chimneys (Adm. Charne... that's the fashion.) They abandoned it due to excessive smoke from the decks, not durability. Later (especially with the introduction of oil), pressurization became mandatory for modern boilers. So, in the period described, the "force majeure" was more a matter of the "design safety margin" and boiler materials than pressurization.
    1. +2
      28 May 2026 13: 22
      Quote: anzar
      But British tricks allow us to appreciate the hull's contours. The British were very good at this.

      This is no doubt true
      Quote: anzar
      Supercharging and forcing are two different things.

      different, but boost was achieved through supercharging.
    2. +1
      28 May 2026 16: 32
      Quote: anzar
      Even the high power of the engines didn't help them: Jean d'Arc 33,000 hp, less than 22 knots; L. Gambeta 27,500 hp, 22,5 knots during testing...

      If I remember correctly, the Japanese managed to solve the Pallada's speed problems by tinkering with the propellers. So it's not just the lines and power that matter.
      1. +1
        30 May 2026 23: 01
        ..we were able to solve the problems with the Pallada's speed by tinkering with the propellers.

        And also eliminating the bow trim) And so on. But all these things could be adjusted during repairs. Even the boilers and engines. But the hull lines...
  11. 0
    28 May 2026 13: 15
    Thus, by the end of 1897, the Garibaldi-class armored cruisers had become classic "poor man's battleships." Their speed was perfectly adequate for fighting alongside modern battleships. But serving as a "fast wing" with an armored squadron, let alone as scouts, was no longer an option.

    [...]

    That's precisely why the Garibaldi-class cruisers could never even be considered as a prototype for the Bayan. Our admirals were experiencing a severe shortage of modern cruisers for squadron service, which a ship with the speed of a battleship could not possibly fulfill.


    In my opinion, Andrey is clearly being disingenuous in these assertions. As we know from the first part of his narrative, "The Armored Cruiser Bayan: In Search of a Prototype," the cruiser Dupuy-de-Lôme, for example, was considered as a prototype.

    The Dupuy-de-Lôme was laid down way back in 1887, way back in 1997! The design called for a speed of 20 knots. During sea trials in 1895, she failed to achieve her design speed. She achieved a maximum speed of 19,73 knots, with an actual engine power of 13,186 horsepower. The boilers lacked the steam capacity to support the designed engine power of 14,000 indicated horsepower. As early as the early 20th century, the French attempted to improve the cruiser's KMU during a major overhaul and modernization by replacing the fire-tube boilers with high-pressure water-tube boilers designed by Guyot du Temple (patented in 1876, by the way). But the attempt failed. The aging cruiser's engines were no longer capable of handling the speed. During sea trials in 1906, her speed did not exceed 18,27 knots. Therefore, immediately after the repair, the cruiser was put into reserve.

    As the saying goes: "We've found a worse navy than ours!" Or maybe not worse? Recalling a similar domestic "exercise" in 1904, replacing the fire-tube boilers with water-tube boilers on the cruiser "Pamyat Azova"... after which, by 1910, the cruiser's engines could only turn its propellers at 65 rpm (the estimated speed, according to Afanasyev's formula, is 13,7-13,8 knots). Moreover, to achieve this, the economizers had to be removed from the Belleville boilers.

    However, I've digressed considerably. Thus, while the MTK was able to consider the Dupuy-de-Lôme as a prototype in 1897, Captain 1st Rank A. M. Abaza, tasked with collecting potential construction proposals from French designers, even suggested using the Russian armored cruiser Admiral Nakhimov, built in the 1880s, as a prototype.

    As the respected Andrey informed us earlier: "A. M. Abaza believed that the Nakhimov could be used as a basis for a good cruiser, if its lines were improved and its engines' power increased to enable it to reach a speed of 21 knots. The gallant captain of the first rank was so captivated by the idea that he discussed this option with representatives of Forge et Chantier and received their full consent, should the customer so desire, to undertake the reworking of the Admiral Nakhimov design in this direction."

    Thus, our wise MTC in 1897 did not consider the cruiser of the Garibaldi type as a prototype (and by the time the MTC began its considerations, the Garibaldi had already entered service in 1896, the Cristobal Colon was being prepared for transfer to Spain, the San Martin, General Belgrano and Pueyrredon were under construction - they were commissioned in 1898) not at all because all those who took part in the consideration of potential prototypes believed that the Italian design could not be improved to provide the cruiser with a full speed of 21 knots, but because in the then "MTC Universe" there simply did not exist a series of five such Italian cruisers (in the end, ten were built) as cruisers of the Garibaldi type. In 1897, the MTK knew about the Italian cruiser Carlo Alberto, but knew nothing about the Garibaldi-class cruisers designed, among other things, on the basis of the Carlo Alberto. Similarly, in the "MTK Universe" in 1897 there was an export cruiser of the Armstrong Whitworth company, the Esmeralda, but there were no cruisers O'Higgins (launched May 7, 1897, commissioned April 2, 1898), Asama (laid down October 20, 1896, launched March 22, 1898, commissioned March 18, 1899) and Asama's "classmate" Tokiwa (laid down January 6, 1897, launched July 6, 1898, commissioned May 18, 1899) of the same company.

    The "MTK universe" was so unique that the existence of Garibaldi-class cruisers was only discovered in 1904, when the MTK was deciding: "We don't have any new projects, but we need to build something. Let's figure out how to justify the construction of three more Bayans."

    Observing the reports from Port Arthur on the successful combat operations of the newly purchased Kasuga and Nissin, it was already difficult to ignore the objective reality in which ten armored cruisers of the Garibaldi class existed.

    And although in 1904, as they say, "it was already too late to drink Borjomi," it is still interesting under what far-fetched pretexts the MTK, already during the Russo-Japanese War, rejected the "proposal of the Ansaldo company."
    in favor of "we will build three more "Bayans", one at the "Forges et Chantiers" shipyard.

    If, for some reason, the esteemed Andrey does not wish to cover this issue in future parts of his narrative, I will certainly cover it in the comments.

    For now, I'll just note that to accelerate a Garibaldi-class cruiser of the so-called second subseries, the one built with 24 Nikloss or Belleville water-tube boilers (excluding those laid down as Mitra and Roca, renamed Rivadavia and Moreno for Argentina, and the Kasuga and Nisshin cruisers with fire-tube boilers), to 21 knots, a 17,500-hp crane unit was required, 1000 hp more than the Bayan crane unit's designed capacity of 16,500 hp. That's the "thousand-horsepower" price for a L/B of just under 6 (roughly the same as the Peresvets) of these "stubby" cruisers.

    A basic technical analysis shows that a crane manipulator with a design capacity of 17,500 hp could be accommodated in the boiler and engine rooms. However, this would have required either Norman boilers (the Russian Navy encountered two different modifications of these boilers on the cruisers Askold and Bogatyr) or French Belleville boilers with superheaters of the 1898 model used in the crane manipulator of the battleship Tsarevich (20 Belleville boilers, with a design capacity of 16,300 hp). Clearly, 20 or 22 such boilers would have been needed in the cruiser's boiler rooms.

    What about high power with natural draft, not forced draft? Mount the funnels higher. For example, on the American armored cruiser Brooklyn (1896, 10,390 tons, 16,000 hp, 21 knots) the funnels were 100 feet (30,48 meters) high (the distance from the bottom grate to the top of the funnels).

    "Additional natural draft allowed for coal savings."

    At the end of my long-winded commentary, I can only write a banal truth: "He who wants, looks for opportunities, he who does not, looks for excuses."

    I got the impression that in his narrative, the esteemed Andrey was attempting to justify to the public how the MTK initially entrusted a foreign designer with the design of the world's least-armed first-rank armored cruiser, built in the early 1900s. This cruiser, moreover, featured the piquant detail of a missing armor belt at the stern, with steering gear protected by a mere 30mm thick nickel-steel armored deck on a backing of two 10mm thick sheets of mild shipbuilding steel. And then, during the Russo-Japanese War, which was already going poorly for Russia, the MTK decided to replicate this ship for the Russian Navy. Three copies were built.

    The destruction of the Bayan in a naval battle during the Russo-Japanese War, following the scenario that played out for the demise of the armored cruiser Rurik, already aged by 1904, was technically prepared by its French designer and by our own MTK, which allowed such a "bare stern." Things didn't work out. The Bayan was sunk in Port Arthur harbor in 1904 by Japanese siege artillery.
    1. +3
      28 May 2026 13: 38
      Again, a lot of words, but nothing to the point.
      Quote: AlexanderA
      Thus, our wise MTC in 1897 did not consider the Garibaldi-class cruiser as a prototype... ...not at all because everyone involved in the consideration of potential prototypes believed that the Italian design could not be improved to provide the cruiser with a full speed of 21 knots, but because in the then "MTC Universe" there simply did not exist a series of five such Italian cruisers

      Can you provide any justification for this thesis? :)))) You've written "War and Peace" again, and all your "evidence" is that the ITC considered Dupuy-de-Lôme, and that's all. This doesn't prove your conclusion at all.
      The ITC wanted to consider French cruiser designs. One of them, the Dupuy-de-Lôme, was slow and therefore rejected outright ("overwhelmed by armor at the expense of speed and range"). It only made it to the ITC because no one at Forges et Chantiers submitted specifications for the design.
      And anyone who is not tormented by bias will draw from this a simple conclusion that MTK, knowing in advance about the slow speed of Italian cruisers, did not at all consider them as a prototype.
      And only in your head it somehow transformed into
      Quote: AlexanderA
      Andrey is clearly being disingenuous in these statements.

      request
      Quote: AlexanderA
      Similarly, in the "MTK Universe" in 1897 there was an Armstrong Whitworth export cruiser, the Esmeralda, but there were no O'Higgins cruisers.

      Why does the MTK need an eighteen-knot cruiser? Perhaps you'll finally admit the obvious?
      All the prototypes you listed, the ones you venerate, weren't suitable for the MTK because they were slow and unsuitable for squadron reconnaissance. Or is this simple idea simply incompatible with Alexander's universe? laughing
      Quote: AlexanderA
      For now, I'll just note that to accelerate a Garibaldi-class cruiser of the conditional second subseries, the one that was already built with 24 water-tube boilers of Nikloss or Belleville (except for those laid down as "Mitra" and "Roca", renamed for Argentina as "Rivadavia" and "Moreno", named as "Kasuga" and "Nissin" cruisers with fire-tube boilers) to a speed of 21 knots, a crane manipulator with a capacity of 17,500 horsepower was required.

      Almost right – they were off by a few hundred hp. But that's not the point. The point is that squeezing a 17,900 hp crane unit instead of the 8500-9,000 hp crane unit found on the Garibaldians was completely impossible without a complete overhaul of the design.
      Quote: AlexanderA
      At the end of my long-winded commentary, I can only write a banal truth: "He who wants, looks for opportunities, he who does not, looks for excuses."

      You'd better remember another proverb.
      "Wise are those who, overcoming errors, come to the truth, only fools persist in their errors."
      1. +1
        28 May 2026 14: 45
        but there were no O'Higgins cruisers

        Why does MTK need an eighteen-knot cruiser?

        When did O'Higgins become slow?
        30 Belleville boilers, conditionally model 1894 (which means no afterburner or afterburner during testing), 15.930 horsepower, - 21,48 knots.
        1. 0
          28 May 2026 15: 09
          Quote: Jura 27
          30 Belleville boilers, conditionally model 1894 (which means no afterburner or afterburner during testing),

          Where did you get that idea? Why are there suddenly such self-restraint in England?
          Quote: Jura 27
          15.930 horsepower, - 21,48 knots.

          On the Italian Varese, 24 Belleville boilers were designed for 13,500 hp in afterburner mode.
          Quote: Jura 27
          When did O'Higgins become slow?

          At least that's what Balakina and Dashyan wrote.
          1. +1
            28 May 2026 15: 32
            Where did you get that idea? Why are there suddenly such self-restraint in England?

            Read engineer-mechanic Golova, Bellevilles don't lend themselves to normal forcing, i.e., you can only force them if you want to burn them out quickly.
            Balakina and Dashyan are out of the question (by the way, Esmeralda was even faster than O'Higgins), read real literature, not all this crap:
            1. +3
              28 May 2026 16: 03
              Quote: Jura 27
              Read engineer-mechanic Golova, Bellevilles don't lend themselves to normal forcing, i.e., you can only force them if you want to burn them out quickly.

              Well, in England, unfortunately, they didn't read the Head, and that's why they built armored cruisers of the Iwate type with Bellevilles, which were quite suitable for forcing.
              Quote: Jura 27
              read normal literature,

              Historical literature, alas, is just as prone to errors as modern literature. Historicity is not the same as authenticity.
              1. +1
                29 May 2026 02: 36
                Well, in England, unfortunately, they didn't read the Head, and that's why they built armored cruisers of the Iwate type with Bellevilles, which were quite suitable for forcing.

                You don't want to read your head, so you don't understand the forcing of Bellevilles and fire tubes, not at all.
                Obviously, you won't get it, but for the rest of us, I'll summarize: Belleville boilers had two, roughly speaking, basic modes: normal, which burned 100 kg of coal per unit grate area, and forced, which burned, say, 135 kg per the same unit area. Importantly, forced draft was not used in either case; that is, the stokers operated at medium and increased pressure without any draft. Yes, the fans operated in both modes, but the pressure never exceeded 1/2" of water column, and during full-speed tests, the stoker hatches were kept open.
                With fire tubes, the situation is different: a large amount of water allowed forcing with increased blowing (along with increased work of the stokers), while in those fleets where, during tests at full speed, an increase in pressure in the stokers up to 1,5" of water column was allowed (in the RIF it was not allowed), the stoker hatches were closed (otherwise, such pressure could not be created).
                This is where the two Izumo/Iwate test modes come from, one with a combustion rate of about 100 kg, the other about 135 kg per unit grate area, without forced blast into the boilers, as was done with fire-tube boilers.
                1. +2
                  29 May 2026 07: 43
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  Belleville furnaces had two, roughly basic, modes: normal, when 100 kg of coal was burned per unit of grate area, and forced, when, say, 135 kg was burned per the same unit of area.

                  So, we have exactly what I described: there are two modes, one of which is forced. The technical details of how exactly it was achieved are, of course, interesting, but irrelevant.
                  1. +1
                    29 May 2026 11: 16
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    So, we have exactly what I described: there are two modes, one of which is forced. The technical details of how exactly it was achieved are, of course, interesting, but irrelevant.

                    Technical nuances matter. I'll offer a different opinion; I'm not a mechanic, of course, but merely a professor of mechanical engineering. But you can also read up on it;
                    " When an economizer is used with the ash-pit system of forced draft, the chimney must be of sufficient height to overcome the friction of the gases through the economizer as well as through the flues of the boiler and through the chimney itself, as the closed pressure due to the fan is not supposed to extend beyond the furnace. "1906.
                    1. +1
                      29 May 2026 12: 40
                      Quote: 27091965i
                      Technical details matter.

                      Of course. But what I meant was that if it's established that ships with Belleville boilers were tested both under natural draft and under afterburning, and if the Navy Ministry was categorically opposed to afterburning tests, and in other countries afterburning boilers yielded a significant speed increase, then the technical differences between the afterburning process for water-tube boilers and fire-tube boilers don't disprove this.
                      1. +1
                        29 May 2026 13: 21
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But what I meant was that if it is established that tests of ships with Belleville boilers were carried out both on natural draft and on afterburner, and if the Navy Ministry was categorically against tests on afterburner, and in other countries forcing boilers gave a big increase in speed, then the technical differences in the process of forcing water-tube boilers from fire-tube boilers do not refute this

                        If I understand correctly, it's possible to boost both fire-tube and water-tube boilers? Yes, it is.
                  2. +2
                    29 May 2026 15: 33
                    So, we have exactly what I wrote about - there are 2 modes, one of them is forced.

                    Forced mode with natural draft. And this is the most important technical detail. Forced mode with artificial draft was not used for Belleville (excess pressure of up to 0,5" of water column was allowed).
                2. 0
                  29 May 2026 10: 22
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  You don't want to read my head.

                  Why don't I want it? I do, but I don't have it. If you lend me one, I'll read it with pleasure.
                  1. 0
                    29 May 2026 15: 36
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    You don't want to read my head.

                    Why don't I want it? I do, but I don't have it. If you lend me one, I'll read it with pleasure.

                    A brief summary of Golova's article is below. His articles on boilers are in the VF and MSK reference books from 1901, 1899, and elsewhere. If they're no longer online, let me know—I'll send them.
                    1. +2
                      29 May 2026 16: 17
                      Quote: Jura 27
                      If they are no longer online, write to me and I will send them.

                      Unfortunately, none of the MSCs that I was able to download were included.
                      Quote: Jura 27
                      A brief summary of the article "Head" will be below.

                      You're interpreting it too categorically. Forcing was used in the Belleville boilers; there are numerous references to this, one of which I cited in this thread (about Evstafiy). Golov apparently meant that they tried to avoid using it in everyday life.
                      1. +1
                        30 May 2026 03: 24
                        Forcing was used in the Belleville boilers, there are many references to this, one of which I provided in this thread (about Eustathius).

                        Of course it was used, but only with natural draft.
                        Evstafiy, that's ten years after the period in question. I could consider that case, but it's pointless, since we're talking about different times and different ships.
                        By the way, regarding the so-called "afterburner" for Izumo/Iwate, when they achieved 19-19,5 knots at 12,5-14 thp, Brook has a note: "sustained sea speed 19 knots." This is the mode of burning 100 kg of coal per unit grate area, allowing the stokers to work indefinitely.
                        For Russian ships, data on speed/power, when burning 100 kg of coal, is almost never given, but only data is given for afterburning with natural thrust (burning 135-145 kg of coal).
                        And I'll also point out a point from Golova's articles about why it's impossible to force-feed Bellville chimneys like fire tubes or thin tubes (Yarrow and others)—they don't have a water collector and carry very little water, given the complex flow path. So, forcing them under artificial draft will, after a relatively short time, burn out the tubes.
                        When you read Golova, pay attention to this.
                      2. +1
                        30 May 2026 09: 55
                        Yura, thank you, I received everything. I'll be happy to read it.
                      3. +2
                        30 May 2026 14: 52
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Yura, thank you, I received everything. I'll be happy to read it.

                        Should I throw P. Brook out?
                      4. +1
                        30 May 2026 15: 30
                        Of course, I never turn down interesting sources!
                      5. +1
                        31 May 2026 10: 33
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Of course, I never turn down interesting sources!

                        Sent it.
                      6. +2
                        31 May 2026 11: 07
                        Thanks, I received it!
                        I read it. Yura, judge for yourself. Brooke shows, according to Bayan, Krupp armor (actually Harvey), 7-inch turret armor (actually 150 mm), 3-inch casemate armor (actually 60 mm). He counted the steel backing as deck armor. Can we really trust his speed figures?
                        And Golov... it's not just Belleville boilers that can't be forced. Nikloss boilers, too. And all Group 1 boilers with horizontal tubes. I don't think the point is that they can't be forced at all, but that they can, they're just not designed for it, while Group 2 boilers handle it better.
                      7. +1
                        31 May 2026 11: 37
                        Good morning.
                        It's not just Belleville boilers that can't be forced. Nikloss boilers, too. And all Group 1 boilers with horizontal tubes. I don't think the point is that they can't be forced at all, but that they can, but they're just not designed for it.

                        Dear Andrey, there's plenty of material online about boiler boosting, though most of it comes from foreign sources. The main challenges are ensuring a high level of control over boosting and having sufficient measuring instruments. And, most importantly, the training of the machine crews and mechanics.
                      8. +1
                        31 May 2026 12: 25
                        Brook shows Krupp armor on Bayan

                        You can trust the data on English-built ships—he's English, after all. Furthermore, his data (of English construction) is confirmed by reference books from earlier times.
                        Bayan, he provides a comparison in the table, but there is no separate page about it.
                      9. 0
                        31 May 2026 12: 36
                        I think the point is not that they can’t be forced at all, but that they can be

                        Of course it is possible, but only with natural draft (up to 13-15 mm of water column).
                        If it is larger, then the tubes will quickly burn out due to the almost complete absence of a water collector on the Bellevilles (look at the drawing, the size of this water collector is indicated by the letter "C" and compare it with the size on the Yarrow, for example.)
                        And I don’t know who else to trust when it comes to information about boilers. TOGO time, - the profile specialist Golova has a bunch of articles and not a single refutation or criticism, any serious one.
                        I can add a few more of his articles, but they are not about Belleville.
                      10. +2
                        31 May 2026 14: 20
                        That's why they included non-forced testing in the specifications. I always thought, "What nonsense?" Well, include both non-forced testing and forced testing separately. Who would it hurt? A ship or the fate of a battle could be at stake. And here we are, busy with ceremonies. Otherwise, it's all thrown together. Convenient but outdated boilers and unqualified personnel. They didn't even try to develop their own. They waited for results from more intellectually advanced countries.
                      11. +1
                        1 June 2026 02: 53
                        I always thought, what nonsense? Well, include both tests without forcing and forcing separately.

                        As for the Belleville boilers, they were tested in RIF under forced draft, but this mode did not involve artificial draft due to the risk of rapid boiler failure due to the specific design of the boilers.
                        The fire tubes allowed for a perfectly safe boost of up to 20% and a less safe boost of 40-50%. But here, the naval officer (in my opinion) rightly protected the equipment, as excellent crew training was essential, and with that, service wasn't always as smooth as it could have been, unlike the factory commissioning teams with their virtuoso stokers.
                      12. 0
                        1 June 2026 10: 02
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Of course it is possible, but only with natural draft (up to 13-15 mm of water column).

                        I heard somewhere that the British used up to 1,5 inches of mercury specifically for Belleville. We'll keep looking...
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        And I don't know who else to trust when it comes to information about boilers of THAT time - the specialist in the field, Golova, has a ton of articles and not a single refutation or criticism, anything serious.

                        So no one is refuting him - I'm not saying that Golov is wrong, but that you misunderstood him.
                      13. 0
                        1 June 2026 15: 50
                        and that you misunderstood him.

                        How else can one understand his phrases that the belleville cannot be forced by artificial blowing?
                      14. +1
                        1 June 2026 17: 01
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        How else can one understand his phrases that the belleville cannot be forced by artificial blowing?

                        He writes that trials of boosting Belleville boilers with "forced draft" were conducted, and nowhere does he say they resulted in any kind of disaster—he notes only that it was uneconomical. He writes about "not allowed" "to a greater extent than others," which, combined with the above, means that "if absolutely necessary, then it's okay for a short time." He also writes about Niklossa that it's not allowed.
                        In general, the fact that the Bellevilles were extremely unsuitable for boost doesn't mean they couldn't operate in such a mode at all. So they underwent short-term tests abroad with artificial thrust to achieve high speeds.
                      15. 0
                        2 June 2026 03: 54
                        and this means, together with the above, that "if you really need it, then it's okay for a short time"

                        Do you think the Japanese and other Latinos are complete idiots, burning out the boilers on their newest ships just for show? Besides, the shipbuilder provides a warranty, including on the boilers, and if they burn out during testing, they'll replace the burnt tubes at their own expense.
                        As an experiment, for a very short safe time, you can make an artificial blast, but this does not give anything except an experiment, they will not even use it in combat, because after an hour and a half, you can be left without any movement at all.
                      16. +2
                        2 June 2026 07: 49
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Do you think that the Japs and other Latinos are complete fools, so that for the sake of "smoke in the eyes" they would burn the boilers on their newest ships?

                        Golov says nothing about the burnt boilers. He writes that the Belleville boilers were tested. He writes that the Nikloss boilers also can't be forced by blasting, but we know for sure that they were forced.
                        You interpret Golova as technical and precise literature, but these are, in fact, essays.
                      17. 0
                        2 June 2026 16: 12
                        He writes that even niklosses cannot be forced by blowing, but we know for sure that they were forced.

                        Ships that used artificial draft in the nikloss, or even those that used natural draft, required highly qualified maintenance.
                        You interpret Golova as technical and precise literature, but these are, in fact, essays.

                        Who doesn't have essays?
                      18. +2
                        2 June 2026 17: 51
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        On which ships was artificial blowing used in the nikloss?

                        Well, how so? Forced blast of up to 38 mm of water column was specified in the Varyag contract (that's for sure), and most likely the Retvizan had it too—it definitely had forced blast, so we can assume the figures were the same—up to one and a half inches. Also, if you read the descriptions of the Retvizan tests, flares above the funnels are mentioned.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Who doesn't have essays?

                        I haven't come across anything like that.
                      19. -1
                        3 June 2026 03: 44
                        Forced blast up to 38 mm of water column was specified in the Varyag contract (that's for sure)

                        A link to the contract is needed or is this place about 1,5" of water column.
                        Most likely, it was the Retvizan—it definitely had afterburners, so we can assume the figures were the same—up to an inch and a half. Again, if you read the descriptions of the Retvizan tests, there are mentions of flares above the stacks.

                        The flares were without artificial blowing; the Russians had expressly forbidden the blowing of nikloss, although Kramp wanted to negotiate this in order to achieve 18 knots.
                        I haven't come across anything like that.

                        And me too. Otherwise, all the specialized literature of the time would have been littered with information about how Bellevilles can be easily and simply forced by artificial traction.
                      20. +3
                        3 June 2026 07: 23
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        A link to the contract is needed or is this place about 1,5" of water column.

                        Melnikov, "The Cruiser Varyag", 1975 edition. I'm attaching a screenshot, ready to send it if you wish.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Otherwise, all the specialized literature of that time would have been littered with information that bellevilles are easily and simply forced by artificial traction.

                        The point is, it wasn't "easily" forced, as Golov writes in detail. Conclusion: it could only be forced briefly, which is what was done during testing.
                      21. -1
                        3 June 2026 16: 24
                        Melnikov, "Cruiser Varyag", 1975 edition

                        According to other sources, Cramp failed to negotiate the right to artificial air during full-speed tests (the Russians were categorically against it), and the result was an increase in the power of the mechanisms from 18 to 20 kiloponies, so that the cruiser would give 23 knots without afterburner.
                        Naturally, during the tests, no artificial afterburning was used; the contract speed was already exceeded.
                      22. -1
                        1 June 2026 15: 56
                        I heard somewhere that the British used up to 1,5 inches of mercury specifically for Belleville. We'll keep looking...

                        Search "Yes, but why?" ? In the RIF, such supercharging for Bellevilles was not used anyway.
                      23. +3
                        1 June 2026 17: 02
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Search "you can, but why"?

                        Because if that's the case, then it turns out that they did test Bellevilles with artificial traction abroad.
                      24. -1
                        2 June 2026 03: 31
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Search "you can, but why"?

                        Because if that's the case, then it turns out that they did test Bellevilles with artificial traction abroad.

                        Regarding foreign and native aspen trees, I will answer with a quote from the article by Golova (VF i MSK 1901, p. 37):
                        "...currently all It is recognized that Belleville boilers are also used only with natural draft."
              2. +1
                29 May 2026 02: 55
                Historical literature, alas, is just as prone to errors as modern literature. Historicity is not the same as authenticity.

                All reference books of that time, both English and Russian, wrote the same thing: the speed of Esmeralda/O'Higgins was 23/21,5 knots.
                A modern work by the English researcher P. Brook provides the same data, but with some details: according to the project, Esmeralda was supposed to develop a non-afterburning/afterburning speed of 22,25/23 knots with a power of 16000/18000 horsepower.
                But since, during tests without forced blast into the boilers, the speed turned out to be equal to 23 knots with a power of 16020 horsepower, then tests with forced blast were no longer necessary (the contract speed had already been achieved).
                Where did Balakin and Dashyan write about 18 knots? Maybe in some reference book like "Ships of the First World War" or "Cruisers of the First World War"? And these 18 knots correspond to some year, like 1914? And you, without understanding the facts, are spewing nonsense to the masses that either the Esmeralda or the O'Higgins only reached 18 knots during trials after construction.
                1. 0
                  29 May 2026 07: 39
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  Where did Balakin and Dashyan write about 18 knots?

                  "Asama" and others
                  1. +1
                    29 May 2026 15: 23
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    Where did Balakin and Dashyan write about 18 knots?

                    "Asama" and others

                    This isn't a work about Esmeralda/O'Higgins, and it's not even a survey of South American cruisers. Where did they get the number 18 from? Who knows.
                    There is nothing like this in either old or modern sources, not a single word.
                2. +1
                  29 May 2026 12: 10
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  Maybe in some reference book like: "Ships of the First World War" or "Cruisers of the First World War"?

                  Quote: Jura 27
                  Maybe in some reference book like: "Ships of the First World War" or "Cruisers of the First World War"?

                  If you're talking about the FVL, then the only Latinos he has are Brazil and Peru.
                  1. +1
                    29 May 2026 15: 28
                    If you are talking about FVL

                    Everything is much worse, Balakina and Dashyan have distinguished themselves negatively.
        2. 0
          28 May 2026 16: 37
          Quote: Jura 27
          30 Belleville boilers, conditionally model 1894 (which means no afterburner or afterburner during testing),

          Our Dianas also produced a couple of them—more than enough. But everything went down the drain.
          1. 0
            29 May 2026 03: 02
            Quote: Trapper7
            Quote: Jura 27
            30 Belleville boilers, conditionally model 1894 (which means no afterburner or afterburner during testing),

            Our Dianas also produced a couple of them—more than enough. But everything went down the drain.

            Everything was going well at O'Higgins—fast. And the boilers, yes, were the same.
      2. 0
        28 May 2026 17: 12
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Can you provide some justification for this thesis?:)))))

        My comment, as always verbose, has slipped through the cracks. So I'll be brief. What's the rationale? The fact that in 1897, at the ITC meetings, the Italian cruiser Carlo Alberto (construction started in 1891, commissioned in 1898, with a design speed of 19 knots) was mentioned, for example, but not the Garibaldi (construction started in 1893, commissioned in 1896, with a design speed of 20 knots)?

        It is you, dear Andrey, who must provide justification for your thesis that the MTC in 1897 considered cruisers of the Garibaldi type and rejected this project for insufficient speed.

        Or do you agree to admit that the MTC in 1897 did not consider any cruisers of the Garibaldi type, and the fact that the Garibaldi could not have served as a prototype for a future Russian armored cruiser is already your modern conclusion, based on hindsight?
        And anyone who is not tormented by bias will draw from this a simple conclusion that MTK, knowing in advance about the slow speed of Italian cruisers, did not at all consider them as a prototype.

        Now you made me smile. In the book by the respected S. Vinogradov and A. Fedechkin, "The Armored Cruiser Bayan and Its Descendants: From Port Arthur to Moonzund," 2011, page 18 mentions that the Italian cruiser Carlo Alberto was considered along with other foreign cruisers.

        Am I correct in understanding that in 1897 the MTK was unaware of the slow speed of the 19-knot cruiser designed by the Carlo Alberto, but knew of the slow speed of the 20-knot cruiser designed by the Garibaldi, which had been demonstrated during sea trials in 1896, judging by the book by the respected V. L. Kofman, "Armored cruisers of the Garibaldi type": "Average results of six runs: power 13,384 hp at 104 engine revolutions - 19,95 knots"? wink

        All those who suffer from addiction deny that they are suffering from addiction.

        The MTC, as is well known, finally considered the design of the late "Garibaldi" from "Ansaldo" only in 1904. The most interesting thing is that among the reasons listed in the book of the respected R.M. Melnikov for which the MTC rejected the "Ansaldo" design in favor of repeating the construction of the "Bayans", the declared 20,4 knot speed (achievable only with 10% forcing of the main machinery power) is not listed. wink
        Why does the MTK need an eighteen-knot cruiser? Perhaps you'll finally admit the obvious?

        The Garibaldi was designed as a 20-knot cruiser, dear Andrey. Perhaps you'll admit it? And during sea trials in 1896, she fell just five hundredths of a knot short of the designed 20 knots.

        And so, in those glorious times, Captain A.M. Abaza seriously: "I discussed it with representatives of Forge et Chantiers and received their full consent, if the customer so desires, to undertake the reworking of the Admiral Nakhimov project in the specified direction." In terms of: "A good cruiser could be built on the Nakhimov platform if its contours were improved and its engines were increased in power so that it could reach a speed of 21 knots."

        Perhaps you could impartially write what physical laws allowed, in 1897, to seriously discuss with the designer the issue of a 21-knot armored cruiser based on a prototype like the cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov," but did NOT allow the discussion of a project for a 21-knot cruiser based on a prototype like the "Garibaldi" at the MTC meetings?
        Almost correct - off by a few hundred hp.

        I double-checked several ways. I wasn't wrong. However, I won't break a leg over a few hundred horsepower. The figures from the Nissin and Kasuga sea trials are well known. The speed calculation formulas are well known, right down to the authentic formula of the Chief Inspector for Mechanical Engineering of the Marine Technical Committee, V.I. Afanasyev. Calculate, double-check, or whatever you want.
        There was no way to squeeze a 17,900 hp crane instead of the 8500-9,000 hp crane that was installed on the Garibaldians without a radical redesign of the project.

        The Garibaldi was equipped with a crane manoeuvring unit with a design capacity of 13,000 indicated horsepower and fire-tube boilers. During trials, the engines demonstrated an average power of 13,384 horsepower. Subsequent cruisers were equipped with crane manoeuvring units with a design capacity of 13,500 horsepower (with a test capacity significantly exceeding 14,000 horsepower) and 24 Nikloss boilers, 24 Belleville boilers, and again fire-tube boilers.

        Do you understand, Andrey, that French, not Italian, steam engines with a design capacity of 17,500 horsepower and 22 Belleville boilers with superheaters (the same as on the battleship Retvizan) simply could not have fit into the boiler and engine rooms of the second subseries of Garibaldi-class cruisers—that's your detailed thesis, so to speak. Are you prepared to prove it?

        In light of the fact that the designers at Forge and Chantier were prepared to take on the task of fitting the crane mechanism needed to achieve a speed of 21 knots even into a hull based on the hull of the armored cruiser Admiral Nakhimov with a L/B of ~ 5,5, I don't think you'll be able to prove that it was absolutely impossible to design a 21-knot cruiser based on a Garibaldi-class cruiser with new engines and boilers without "a radical redesign of the project."

        Although, I would like to read what, in your understanding, would constitute a “radical redesign of the project” in this case.
        Wise are those who, overcoming errors, come to the truth, only fools persist in their errors

        Looking at the table from the book by the respected R.M. Melnikov with the lines:

        "Power of main mechanisms hp 13500-15200 (with boost up to 10%)
        Full speed, knots 20,4 (with boost)"

        I just can't understand why you insist that the full speed of the cruiser developed based on the Ansaldo project couldn't be increased by another 0,6 knots?
        1. +1
          28 May 2026 17: 47
          Quote: AlexanderA
          My comment, as always verbose, was lost.

          God bless:))))
          Quote: AlexanderA
          What's the justification? That in 1897, at the ITC meetings, the Italian cruiser "Carlo Alberto" (construction started in 1891, commissioned in 1898, designed speed 19 knots) was mentioned, but not the "Garibaldi"

          The Carlo Alberto was never considered as a prototype for the Bayan. The meeting reviewed cruisers that other navies might consider serving with squadrons, in order to gain an overview of what was being built around the world. The Carlo Alberto was one of these, the Garibaldi was not.
          The Garibaldi was designed for completely different purposes than the Bayan; it wasn't its analogue. Why would MTK even consider it? You might as well blame MTK for not considering the Majestic-class battleships as prototypes for the Bayan.
          Theoretically, Garibaldi could have been considered an analogue if its performance characteristics had met the objectives set for Bayan. But they didn't; the cruiser was slow.
          Quote: AlexanderA

          "Garibaldi" is a 20-knot cruiser, dear Andrey. Perhaps you'll admit it?

          Only in your fantasies. It's 18-knot.
          Quote: AlexanderA

          The Garibaldi had a crane manipulator with a design capacity of 13,000 indicated horsepower and fire-tube boilers.

          Incorrect. Garibaldi's crane had a design power of 8,500 hp. It was supposed to produce 13,000 hp under boost.
          To achieve a 21-knot Garibaldi, it was necessary to install a crane manipulator capable of producing 17,900 horsepower under natural thrust—more than twice the power of its predecessor.
          1. -1
            28 May 2026 19: 55
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The Carlo Alberto was never considered as a prototype for the Bayan. The meeting reviewed cruisers that other navies might have intended for squadron service, in order to gain an overview of what was being built in this area worldwide.

            Oh, yes, yes, naturally. After all, in 1897, the MTK wasn't envisioned as a universal armored cruiser, which was what "poor (meaning, money-saving) navies were interested in at the time," but as a specialized "luxury addition to the squadron":

            https://www.universalinternetlibrary.ru/book/100426/chitat_knigu.shtml

            "The notion that every new Russian ship should be stronger than its counterpart in the potential enemy's forces was not at all decisive. Even the most authoritative specialist in the field of naval tactics, N.L. Klado, lacked a clear justification for the importance of armored cruisers as ships capable of enveloping a ship's head or flank in battle. Even in his work "Modern Naval Warfare" (St. Petersburg, 1905, p. 94), published in 1904, he merely emphasized the usefulness of side armor on armored cruisers and belatedly reminded that armored cruisers were "a luxury in a squadron" (p. 96)."

            https://history.milportal.ru/krejsery-kak-sredstvo-narusheniya-kommunikacij-protivnika-vo-vzglyadax-otechestvennyx-voenno-morskix-specialistov-konca-xix-nachala-xx-veka/

            "As a result, in the first years after the Russo-Japanese War, the idea of ​​creating such multi-purpose units with belt protection was finally abandoned by domestic experts. '...One cannot help but come to the conclusion,' noted Captain 2nd Rank M.M. Rimsky-Korsakov in 1906, 'that a first-class armored cruiser, as an independent type, is a luxury, and therefore the construction of such vessels in our fleet, in any case, must be abandoned...'"40.

            Just admit that respected Andrey was collectively mistaken in his ideas about the role of armored cruisers in the future war, and I will be satisfied.

            "Garibaldi" was designed for completely different purposes than "Bayan", it was not its analogue.

            Let's take a look at the Italians' opinion on the purpose of the Garibaldi:

            https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classe_Giuseppe_Garibaldi

            "For strategic reasons, the Italian navy prioritized the speed of its ships over their foreign counterparts, and in the last decade of the 19th century, Austrian and French ships, which were considered a potential threat, became the benchmark.

            These and other reasons prompted the Italian Navy to build ships that, although classified as battleships, were in fact large cruisers, such as the Regina Margherita and Regina Elena-class battleships.

            This strategic vision led to the Italian Navy's interest in armored cruisers once research into this type of vessel had reached a certain level of development. The choice fell on modernized ships of this type, capable of competing with battleships thanks to their superior speed.

            Design

            The design was reworked by naval engineer Edoardo Masdea, who carried out his studies in accordance with the instructions of the Minister of the Navy, Benedetto Brin, and the proposals of the Ansaldo company, which was commissioned to build the first ship.

            Brin proposed reworking the design of the Vettor Pisani-class cruiser, taking into account the characteristics of the Emanuele Filiberto-class battleships.

            The main concepts of the project were as follows:

            The ability to have ships capable of performing both the role of armored cruisers and the role of battleships, operating in close proximity to them.

            The ability to attack formations of armored cruisers, even in individual missions, thanks to their powerful armament.

            The ability to avoid collisions with larger ships due to their high speed.

            As a result, the ship's displacement increased by approximately 1000 tons compared to the Vettor Pisani. The result was satisfactory, as the ship was well armed, adequately protected, and capable of speeds of up to 20 knots. Armament, protection, and speed were well balanced, and the weight distribution was as follows: 40% of the total mass was hull without armor, 15% was artillery, 25% was armor, and the remaining 20% ​​was propulsion.


            So, when the Italians designed the Garibaldi, they were not actually designing an 18-knot second-class battleship "for the poor," as you are explaining to the public here.

            The Italians were designing a 20-knot universal armored cruiser, the concept of which our wise MTK could not comprehend at that time.

            Unlike you, the Italians still believe they created such a cruiser back then. And why wouldn't they, if 10 cruisers of this type somehow ended up in service with four navies within 10 years?

            Maybe we should stop pretending, from the perspective of today's hindsight, that "MTK was collectively very smart," and that the Italians suffered a setback: the Garibaldi, commissioned in 1896, had already turned into a failure by the end of 1897. pumpkin a battleship for poor "second-rate navies"?

            Especially considering that one such "second-rate fleet," the Japanese, with the help of a couple of Garibaldi-class cruisers, in 1904-1905 dealt such a beating to our fleet that everyone present is still under the impression - they continue to try to understand how it happened and why.
            Only in your fantasies. It's 18-knot.

            " - It's cut.
            - No shaved.
            - Cut.
            - Brito!"

            This is the approximate gist of our conversation, dear Andrey. wink

            You're very good at persuading others. I'll be watching with interest as you convince those present that the 20-knot cruiser "Garibaldi" was actually an 18-knot cruiser.

            Do you think the cruiser Gromoboy, which demonstrated a full speed of 20,1 knots during sea trials, was also an 18-knot cruiser? If not, can you recall a combat episode in which the Gromoboy demonstrated a speed of 20 knots or so? wink
            To achieve a 21-knot Garibaldi, it was necessary to install a crane manipulator capable of producing 17,900 horsepower under natural thrust—more than twice the power of its predecessor.

            The later Garibaldi cruisers were equipped with engines with a design output of 13500 indicated horsepower, but actual output during testing was well over 14 horsepower. If you look at the total grate area and the total heating surface area of ​​the boiler plant in the table above, you'll probably notice that in 1904, the Moscow Technical Committee (MTK) was considering a cruiser design with cylindrical fire-tube boilers, a complete analogue of the Kasuga cruiser. The Kasuga cruiser's crane manoeuvre, as is well known, demonstrated a power output of 14896 horsepower during sea trials.

            All you are doing now is trying to convince the public that the engineers at Forge et Chantier, who in 1897, at the suggestion of Captain Abaza, took on the task of designing a 21-node armored cruiser based on a prototype like the Admiral Nakhimov, would not have been able to design a 21-node cruiser based on a prototype like the Garibaldi.

            I'm even curious how many of you here you'll be able to convince. And we certainly had a funny exchange of opinions.

            " - 20 knots.
            - No, 18 knots!

            "The cruiser Admiral Nakhimov in 1897 can be considered as a prototype for the design of a 21-node armored cruiser.
            The cruiser "Garibaldi" in 1897 CANNOT be considered as a prototype for the design of a 21-knot armored cruiser."

            Thank you! It was fascinating. wink
            1. +1
              28 May 2026 20: 29
              Quote: AlexanderA
              You're very good at persuading others. I'll be watching with interest as you convince those present that the 20-knot cruiser "Garibaldi" was actually an 18-knot cruiser.

              You've already convinced me:)))) The fact that you refuse to accept the obvious - that Garibaldi developed 20 knots when forcing the boilers - is not my problem.
              Quote: AlexanderA
              "The cruiser Admiral Nakhimov in 1897 can be considered as a prototype for the design of a 21-node armored cruiser.
              The cruiser "Garibaldi" in 1897 CANNOT be considered as a prototype for the design of a 21-knot armored cruiser."

              As usual, you didn't understand anything. Or rather, you didn't want to understand anything.
              The MTK never considered Nakhimov as a prototype for Bayan. Never. It was Abaza's personal idea, which he proposed to the Franks.
              Quote: AlexanderA
              Just admit that in its ideas about the role of armored cruisers in a future war, the MTK was collectively mistaken.

              I'm amused by your requests:)))) But alas, you're wrong again
              1. -2
                29 May 2026 00: 13
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                You've already convinced me:)))) The fact that you refuse to accept the obvious - that Garibaldi developed 20 knots when forcing the boilers - is not my problem.

                It's just your personal "Mars navy" fetish that forced draft is unacceptable. And that the speeds achieved with forced draft should simply be ignored, and only the speeds achieved with natural draft in the boiler furnaces should be taken into account.

                The last ships of the Russian fleet that were designed to achieve full design speed solely with natural draft in the furnaces were the Poltava-class battleships and the cruiser Rossiya.

                "Retvizan" - fan blowing at 1,5 inches of water column to achieve 18 knots.
                "Oslyabya" - "artificial air injection was also provided (fans created excess pressure within 12,7 mm of water column), used to achieve full power of the machines."
                "Admiral Makarov" - "The cruiser has seven Belleville compressors
                for the second, third, and fourth stoker compartments, two each, one per stoker compartment, and one compressor for the first stoker compartment... Air pressure at full speed is about 14 lbs., at economical 6 lbs.
                etc.
                As usual, you didn't understand anything. Or rather, you didn't want to understand anything.
                MTK never considered Nakhimov as a prototype for Bayan. Never.

                I realized all about the collective intelligence of our "wise" MTC of that era many years ago. The MTC simply missed the trend—armored cruisers were becoming multi-role, capable of both "cruising in more limited areas" and "operating in combat, in conjunction with squadron battleships."

                "Luxury with a squadron"—that was all the collective understanding of squadron armored cruisers at the time. They still couldn't grasp how squadrons should "operate in combat" and what "communication with squadron battleships" should be.

                That's why they offered the French "an unknown type of cruiser," but most likely an armored cruiser—just imagine the designs. And the displacement should be no more than. Since displacement was the main parameter, they had to consider anything with a displacement of "no more than."

                And since the Esmeralda was included in the "typical examples," then everything new, with a displacement "no more than" that of the Esmeralda, had to be considered, including the cruiser that the Italians built for themselves, but Argentina bought in order to destroy this very Esmeralda, built for Chile.

                But for some reason, the unfinished long-term construction project "Carlo Alberto" was considered, and not the "killer" of "Esmeralda", which had already entered service.

                The same is true of Abaza's proposal. It was voiced not only by the enthusiastically received representatives of Forge et Chantier, but also at the MTC meetings. Unlike the enthusiasm of the Forge et Chantier representatives at the MTC meetings, the captain's proposal elicited no enthusiasm at all.

                But that's not the point. No one at the ITC meetings stated that the captain's proposal to design a 21-knot armored cruiser was technically unfeasible.

                But it seems you're trying to tell everyone here that it was impossible to design a 7800-ton, 21-knot armored cruiser with a L/B ratio of 5,5-6,0, a full armor belt along the waterline, four 8" turrets, or two single-gun 10" turrets, and 12-14 6" guns in an armored battery (casemates). The only thing that could have been designed was the "Bayan."

                However, perhaps it just seems that way to me. :)))
                I'm amused by your requests:)))) But alas, you're wrong again

                Yes, I see that you will never admit what is written in books.

                "This lack of attention to first-class armored cruisers must be explained by the confluence of an unusually large number of unfavorable circumstances. These include, in particular, the persistence of the concept of cruiser warfare, which still remained from earlier times, the "eternal economy" that forced the reduction of ships' displacement, a lack of understanding of the new role of armored cruisers in their interaction with ironclads in combat, and, finally, the reliance on 6-inch guns, which were then considered (based on the experience of the Sino-Japanese War) to be the most effective (due to their rate of fire).
                The lack of focused creative work on ship design and the underestimation of the destructive power of modern high-explosive shells (although even A.M. Abaza warned about this) allowed the Russian fleet, despite the construction of armored turret cruisers of the Asama class for Japan, to continue building armored deck cruisers of the Pallada class with open, and even without armor shields, deck mounts of 6-inch guns. The idea that each new Russian ship should be stronger than its counterpart in the forces of a potential enemy was not at all decisive. Even the most authoritative specialist in the field of naval tactics, N.L. Klado, did not have a clear justification for the importance of armored cruisers as ships that perform head-on or flank attacks in battle. Even in the report published in
                In his 1904 work “Modern Naval Warfare” (St. Petersburg, 1905, p. 94), he only emphasized the usefulness of side armor on armored cruisers and belatedly reminded that armored cruisers are “a luxury for a squadron” (p. 96).

                Confusion over the role and place of cruisers was caused by the then-fashionable concept of the decisive role of 6-inch rapid-fire artillery in combat and the futility of armor. This concept was championed by the authoritative specialist Lieutenant General P.F. Pestich, who delivered a report on this topic at the General Staff Academy on March 18, 1892 ("The Modern Fleet and Its Questions," St. Petersburg, 1892). These same views were supported from 1894 onward by Admiral S.O. Makarov, who persistently promoted ("Morskoy Sbornik," 1894, No. 6, "Analysis of the Elements Constituting the Combat Strength of Ships") his design for an "armorless" (i.e., without side armor—PM) combat vessel. He considered such a ship, which had a displacement of 3000 tons, a speed of 20 knots and was armed with two 8-inch and four 6-inch guns, to be universal for squadron combat.

                He considered the small size of the target, a 3000-ton ship, to be a particular advantage of his design. To achieve this advantage, he believed any shielding of the guns by armor was detrimental. He supported this argument in his works, for some reason ignoring the enormous explosive power of modern shells, with drawings of small-target guns without shields and the example of the battleship Chin-Yen, where the Japanese's continuous shells "pierced the side but did not hit individual objects" ("Discourses," 1943. pp. 432, 439).

                Displaying an incomprehensible inertia of thought in this conviction, S. O. Makarov defended his concept both in a note dated April 29, 1897, to Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich (Documents, Vol. II, pp. 234-238), and in an article in the "Maritime Collection" for 1897, No. 7, ("Discourses on the Issues of Naval Tactics." Moscow, 1943, pp. 383-441). Even in 1903, having almost obtained permission to build a prototype unarmored vessel according to his design, he believed it sufficient to retain the speed of 20 knots and the previously proposed armament. The review of projects presented in the book L1.J1 also testifies to the more than scandalous state of views on the type of Russian cruiser at the end of the 19th century. Polenova “Cruiser “Aurora” (L., 1987, pp. 17-26).

                All these circumstances predetermined the recommendations that the MTC, in its journal No. 58, submitted for the "discretion" of the Director of the Naval Ministry. "In terms of the overall combination of combat qualities achieved," the Esmeralda design was unequivocally recognized as exemplary. It was to be used as the "foundation" for the design of the Russian cruiser.


                Well, since you haven’t responded to my funny request, then I’ll ask a funny question: “Are you, dear Andrey, not indifferent to the era of Nicholas II, “which we lost”? wink

                If so, then that explains your "smoothing the edges" and, to me personally, your noticeable attempts to whitewash the historical "black dog" to the point of being white. It's a shame there's no technical possibility of sending you to the Russia of Nicholas II to experience the "spirit of the era." Just kidding, just kidding. laughing
                1. 0
                  29 May 2026 07: 51
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  It's just your personal "Mars naval" fetish that forced blowing is unacceptable.

                  :)))) Yes, mine and MTK.
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  The last ships of the Russian fleet that were designed to achieve full design speed exclusively with natural draft in the furnaces,

                  You're writing nonsense again. Yes, our ships often had devices for boosting their boilers. But that doesn't change the fact that the technical specifications required them to be used, and tests were conducted, only under natural draft (there was a one-time exception, I don't remember exactly now, but it was one). And boosting was for force majeure combat situations.
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  But it looks like you are trying to tell everyone here that it was impossible to design a 7800 ton, 21 knot armored cruiser with a L/B of ~ 5,5 - 6,0, a full armor belt along the waterline, four 8" turrets, or two single-gun 10" turrets and 12-14 6" guns in an armored battery (casemates).

                  Of course not. That would require a much larger displacement.
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  Yes, I see that you will never admit what is written in books.

                  I fully admit that Melnikov wrote this. But, with all due respect, he was wrong on this matter.
            2. +5
              28 May 2026 22: 51
              Quote: AlexanderA
              The cruiser Kasuga's crane manoeuvre demonstrated a power output of 14896 hp during sea trials.

              On March 3, 1904, under natural draft, Kasuga showed 11100 horsepower and 17,9 knots.
              You remember that some Japanese battleships were faster under natural draft, and some Russian ones too?
              1. -1
                29 May 2026 01: 28
                Quote: rytik32
                You remember that some Japanese battleships were faster under natural draft, and some Russian ones too?


                1. The first thing that was stated on the issue of the Cabinet of Ministers in the Reference on the comparison of the armored cruiser of the Bayan type from December 10, 1904 (Major General Dubrov)

                "Ansaldo" has undertaken to introduce changes within the displacement limits of our cruiser... the mandatory replacement of fire-tube boilers with Belleville water-tube boilers with a steam capacity sufficient for 16500 horsepower."

                Apparently, Major General Dubrov, as often happens with us, was not aware that Ansaldo had previously built such cruisers with 24 Belleville boilers in the KMU, and not with the proposed fire-tube boilers.

                2. Now about the "natural draft" mechanisms in the newest Belleville boilers:

                https://rb.rbook.club/book/16445331/read/page/158/

                1. "The cruiser is equipped with seven Belleville compressors for the second, third, and fourth stokers, two each, one for each stoker, and one compressor for the first stoker compartment; each compressor can serve both stokers. The compressor has the following design. An air compressor is located above the steam cylinder. The steam piston rod is attached to a Maudsley crossbar, to which two air piston rods are connected. Air distribution is accomplished by means of spool valves moved by eccentrics. Air pressure at full stroke is about 14 lbs., at economical 6 lbs.."

                2. And finally, regarding the inadmissibility in the RIF of fan-assisted blowing of stokers to achieve the full power of machines when using Belleville boilers of the 1896 model:

                https://cloud.mail.ru/public/vPWV/tQ42HbYfP

                See attached illustration from the document.
                1. +3
                  29 May 2026 07: 54
                  Once again, boost capability was provided. This is the required mode in force majeure situations. But the cruiser was required to achieve 21 knots under natural thrust, not artificial, and the presence of the appropriate compressors in no way contradicts this. laughing
                  1. -2
                    29 May 2026 12: 01
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Once again, the ability to force acceleration was ensured. This is a necessary mode in force majeure situations.

                    Once again, according to the contract for the production of Belleville boilers for the battleship Chesma (if I remember correctly, the replacement of fire-tube boilers with water-tube boilers on this battleship never happened), these Belleville boilers of the 1896 model were supposed to produce steam in a quantity sufficient for the engines to develop their full design capacity of 9000 indicated horsepower with fan blowing into the boiler ash pans with a pressure of "no more than 12 mm of water column."

                    Now live with this, dear Andrey. Domestic ships with Belleville boilers of the 1896 model reached their design power and, consequently, their design speed at full speed only with forced air blast in the boiler furnaces, albeit a fairly moderate blast, and not with natural draft in the furnaces, as was previously the case with domestic crane-manipulator ships with fire-tube boilers.

                    Regarding the Bayan-class cruisers, figure out where the boost from the compressors in their Belleville-type boilers went, not just at full throttle but also at idle. You're a meticulous person; you'll figure it out. laughing
                    1. +3
                      29 May 2026 13: 22
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      Domestic ships with Belleville boilers of the 1896 model reached the design power of their steam engines and, accordingly, the design full speed only with forced blast into the boiler furnaces.

                      Alexandra, don't grasp at straws, but accept your defeat with dignity.
                      At the "Ivan Zlatoust," due to the lack of traditional wide-mouth deflectors, which were used in steam production calculations, the Franco-Russian Works decided to conduct tests with closed boiler rooms and forced-air fans, rather than open ones, as stipulated in the contract. This resulted in pressure in the compartments exceeding accepted standards. The designers of the boiler system for the "Evstafiy" chose a different approach, although they did not fully coordinate their actions with the MTK. On their own initiative, they introduced air supply from the same fans directly into the boiler ash pans. This method allowed for greater boiler boost, which was confirmed during tests: the "Evstafiy" burned 145 kg of coal per hour per square meter of grate, while the "Ivan Zlatoust" burned only 104,5 kg. Despite the fact that this method was fundamentally different from the system of air supply to the boilers that was generally accepted in the navy at that time (improved draft was achieved by increasing the pressure in the overall volume of the boiler room), The acceptance committee decided not to redesign the pressurization system directly into the boilers, but rather to make some design changes to allow for traditional air supply. On the "Ivan Chrysostom," the MTC permitted the boiler room pressure to be increased beyond technical requirements during long voyages.

                      "Eustathius" by L.A. Kuznetsov
                      1. -1
                        29 May 2026 16: 21
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Alexandra, don't grasp at straws, but accept your defeat with dignity.

                        Your "Russ give up!" is funny because I am describing to you, dear Andrey, how it actually happened, and not how you believed until today, in accordance with your "Mars navy" ideas, having missed some grimy technical details. wink

                        What you quoted (do you think I haven't read this before?) only illustrates once again that the crane manoeuvres of Russian warships with Belleville boilers of the 1896 model and later reached the full design capacity of the engines (and the ships, accordingly, reached full speed) only when the boiler installations were pressurized (forced).

                        Moreover, the further we went, the greater this boost became.

                        "At that time, the Dolgolenko boiler was being tested at the Baltic Shipyard, and the Naval Minister wanted to check its operation under ship conditions. The essence of the invention of the engineer of the Baltic Shipyard, V. Ya. Dolgolenko, was to reduce the hydraulic resistance in sectional boilers of the Belleville type, as a result of which the circulation of water was significantly improved and it became possible to force the boilers to increase the speed of the ship. If an ordinary Belleville boiler, under normal operation, allowed the combustion of 90-100 kg of coal per 1 m2 of grate per hour, then the Dolgolenko boiler, tested at the Baltic Shipyard, completely freely allowed twice as much intensity, i.e. more than 200 kg of coal per 1 m2 of grate per hour, approaching Yarrow boilers in this parameter. The invention of V. Ya. Dolgolenko was patented on May 21, 1911. The company "Delaunay - Belleville" used Dolgolenko's invention in their boilers, which significantly improved their performance characteristics [143]."

                        "Guards cruiser "Red Caucasus"" by I.F. Tsvetkov

                        How exactly the fan (compressor) pressurization was carried out, whether it was for the entire boiler room or directly for the boiler furnaces, or perhaps for the space above the furnace, is a technical implementation detail that you shouldn't even bother with.

                        "Air was supplied to the space between the upper row of boiler (or evaporator) tubes of the elements and the lower elements of the economizer (or economizer) through special nozzles from a separate compressor to ensure more complete utilization of the thermal energy of the exhaust gases. This allowed for an increase in the feedwater temperature in the economizer."

                        The main thing for you to remember is that Russian ships with crane-mounted propulsion systems and Belleville boilers, starting with the boilers of the 1896 model, according to design documentation, reached full power only with "forced" supercharging, and not with natural draft in the boilers, as you apparently believed until today.

                        I hope that you no longer have any misunderstandings on this issue.
                      2. +1
                        29 May 2026 16: 23
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        What you quoted to me (do you think I haven't read this before?) only illustrates once again that the crane manoeuvres of Russian warships with Belleville boilers of the 1896 model and later reached the full design capacity of the engines (and the ships, accordingly, reached full speed) only when the boiler installations were pressurized (forced).

                        As I already said, reality does not exist for you:))))
                        That 100500 sources state that the Russian Imperial Navy didn't use forced throttle during trials is completely out of your league. That Russian ships were tested on a minimum of six-hour runs, and usually on 12-hour runs, which would cause a boiler burnout under forced throttle, is completely out of your league. You're plucking out the fact that forced throttle could be used on our ships and... arbitrarily declaring it mandatory during trials. laughing
                        But I never doubted it - that's the kind of person you are.
                      3. -3
                        29 May 2026 16: 33
                        The illusory reality in which you live, in which the crane manipulators of Russian ships with Belleville boilers of 1896 and later, reached the design capacity of the machines only with natural draft in the boilers, of course, does not exist for me.

                        And yes, don't forget, the compressor pressurization of the firebox in Belleville boilers with economizers was also carried out during the fuel-saving mode. This increased the boilers' thermal efficiency.
                      4. 0
                        29 May 2026 17: 59
                        I previously wrote that the RIF abandoned the idea of ​​providing contractual machine power and, accordingly, contractual speed only with natural draft boilers when the Belleville water-tube boilers began to be widely used.

                        I was wrong.

                        I believe the phrase "...with a total indicated power of 13,250 (horses) with the fans running and an air pressure of 1/2 inch on the water pressure gauge. The contract speed, in this case, is 18 knots" does not need to be deciphered.
                      5. +4
                        29 May 2026 18: 12
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        at 1/2 inch on a water pressure gauge

                        This is approximately 0,0012 atmospheres.
                        Powerful! laughing
                        That is, in fact, the pressure was almost equal to atmospheric pressure.
                      6. 0
                        29 May 2026 18: 52
                        The Overton window has opened slightly, and you already acknowledge that the requirement to achieve the contractual power of the machines and the contractual full speed under natural thrust by the time of the Rurik has already been removed.

                        Let's go further into the depths centuries technical history of the Russian fleet.

                        https://coollib.cc/b/273208-rafail-mihaylovich-melnikov-polubronenosnyiy-fregat-pamyat-azova-1885-1925/read

                        The frigate "Memory of Azov" has a twin-screw propeller and consists of two vertical triple-expansion engines, each with three cylinders. Together, the two engines are expected to develop 8500 indicated horsepower under natural thrust and 11,500 indicated horsepower under forced thrust. The engine speed under forced thrust is expected to be approximately 115 rpm.
                        The steam boilers, six in number, are double-ended, each with six corrugated furnaces. The operating steam pressure in the boilers is 130 pounds per square inch.
                        The weight of the machine with boilers and water is 1150 tons. The expected speed is at least 17 knots with natural draft and 18 knots with forced draft.


                        I'm afraid to find out how powerful the fan air injection into the boiler rooms, in inches according to the water pressure gauge, was planned in the crane control unit of the frigate "Memory of Azov", that the power of its machines was supposed to increase from 8500 indicated horsepower with natural draft to 11500 indicated horsepower with forced draft. laughing
                      7. +2
                        29 May 2026 19: 48
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        The Overton window has opened slightly, and you already acknowledge that the requirement to achieve the contractual power of the machines and the contractual full speed under natural thrust by the time of the Rurik has already been removed.

                        Alexandra, I understand that you need to somehow get out of this situation, but...
                        You're only making it worse. What you're writing is -
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        and 1/2 inch air pressure on the water gauge.

                        This has nothing to do with forcing the boilers. At all:))))
                        Have you ever seen a warship from the early 20th century? In a picture? See those big flares there? Do you know what they are? That's ventilation. It's needed because the boiler rooms get a little hot. And this ventilation pushes a little air into the boiler rooms and engine rooms. That's why the pressure there is generally slightly higher than normal.
                        So all these requirements of half an inch on the pressure gauge are to ensure that there is ventilation, and there is no forcing of the boilers:))))) That is, in essence, this requirement is to limit the operation of the ventilation, so that the effect of artificial draft is not created
                      8. -2
                        30 May 2026 01: 46
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Alexandra, I understand that you need to somehow get out of this situation, but...

                        You need to get out of this, dear Andrey. So you're trying to get out of this. But who else would I let get out of this? wink
                        This has nothing to do with forcing the boilers. At all:))))

                        "...with a total indicated force of 13,250 (forces) with the fans operating and an air pressure of 1/2 inch on the water pressure gauge"
                        Have you seen those big flares there? Do you know what they are? That's ventilation. It's needed because the boiler rooms get a little hot. And this ventilation forces a little air into the boiler rooms and engine rooms. That's why the pressure there is generally slightly higher than normal.

                        Wow, I haven't seen people twist and turn like that in a long time. wink

                        https://military.wikireading.ru/15917

                        "To boost combustion in the boiler furnaces, 10 fan engines are installed. They consist of a single-cylinder horizontal steam engine and an air impeller enclosed in a casing. When the engines are operating, air is drawn through the fan shafts and forced into the stoker room. To increase air pressure in the stoker room, the doors and air registers must be closed. Belleville boilers do not allow for strong boosting, and therefore the air pressure in the stoker room is not raised above 15 mm H2O."

                        Should I convert 1/2" of water column to millimeters of water column, or should you do it yourself?
                      9. +1
                        30 May 2026 09: 54
                        Uh-huh:)))) True, Melnikov wrote something else, I’m attaching a screenshot of it.
                        You see, technically, any air injection can be considered forcing. But it begins to have negative consequences after a certain threshold, and that threshold is by no means half an inch.
                      10. -3
                        30 May 2026 17: 01
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Uh-huh:)))) True, Melnikov wrote something else, I’m attaching a screenshot of it.

                        Dear Andrey, well, this is what the respected R.M. Melnikov wrote about the Retvizan, a ship with Nikloss boilers in the KMU.

                        I believe I have already convinced you that by the time of the Rurik, with its fire-tube boilers, according to the design, the ships of the Russian fleet were supposed to achieve the contractual power of the engines required to achieve the contractual full speed not with natural draft in the boiler furnaces, but with forced fan blowing into the stokeholds.

                        Your attempt to claim that a 1/2" water column boost in the stokeholds is a trivial matter that could have been achieved without fan-assisted blowing, only by using "such large flares" on the air intake deflectors to capture the oncoming air currents on a ship underway, has been refuted by me with a quote from the book by the respected Rafail Mikhailovich, "Battleship Emperor Paul I" (1906-1925). No, such excess pressure required fan-assisted blowing in the boiler rooms.

                        I'll add that these aren't all the quotes from this book by the esteemed Rafail Mikhailovich on this subject. You're probably interested in how much the fan boost in the stokeholds, with a pressure gauge reading of 1/2" of water column, increased the power of the battleship Emperor Pavel I's crane control unit.

                        https://litlife.club/books/198915/read?page=53

                        "October 19, 1910. At 5:15 a.m., the ship weighed anchor at the Great Kronstadt Roads and began testing... both main engines were making 109-110 revolutions. At 4:35 p.m., the test was completed, and the ship, having reduced speed, went to the Great Kronstadt Roads, where she dropped anchor. During the entire 8-hour test of the engines, at continuous full speed, the ship's main engines operated quite satisfactorily, correctly, smoothly, without heating up the rubbing parts or flooding them with water. During the test, the steam in the boilers was maintained exactly within the pressure limits required by the specifications. In the stokehold compartments, the fan engines maintained an air pressure of up to 1/2 dm. of water column.

                        [...]

                        The total indicated power of both machines is 18596,5 steam horses...

                        The ship's speed at the measured mile was not determined due to cloudy weather and the risk of encountering fog. The ship was sailing a direct course to Gogland Island and back, and the speed determined from bearings was 18,5 knots.


                        "On August 3, 1911, the commission carried out a verification test of the mechanisms for 3 hours at 0,9 of the highest number of revolutions of the main engines obtained during their official test, i.e., at 100-101 revolutions. All 25 boilers were under steam, the fan machines were running without pressure in the stokehold compartments, with open hatches. ... the total indicated power of both engines was 14713 steam horses, at average revolutions: right engine 96,7, left engine 99,33 rpm."

                        Thus, without boost in the boiler rooms, with the hatches open, the engines of the battleship "Emperor Paul I" demonstrated an average power of 14,713 indicated horsepower. With forced fan boost, when an excess pressure of 1/2" of water column compared to atmospheric pressure was created in the closed boiler rooms, the engines of the battleship demonstrated a power of 18596,5 indicated horsepower.

                        The use of forced blast, when fans in closed boiler rooms provided excess pressure of 1/2" of water column, increased the power of the battleship's engines by 3883,5 indicated forces, or approximately 26,4%.

                        I suppose the question is whether it was possible to achieve an excess pressure of 1/2" of water column in the ship's boiler rooms WITHOUT a fan blower, and at the same time, the question is how much such a fan blower of 1/2" of water column in the stokeholds, according to the water pressure gauge, allowed to increase the capacity of the crane manometer, at least for the late-model Belleville boilers?

                        However, I already have a rough idea of ​​what kind of objections you might write.

                        But all I needed to convince you was that, ever since the Rurik, it had been accepted that the contractual full speed of a Russian naval ship was achieved not by natural draft in the boiler furnaces, but by forced blast. And the fact that this forced blast, both for the fire-tube boilers on the cruiser Rurik in August 1895 and for the Belleville water-tube boilers on the battleship Emperor Paul I in October 1910, amounted to approximately 1/2" of water column excess pressure relative to atmospheric pressure, is because "Belleville boilers do not allow strong forcing, and therefore the air pressure in the boiler room is not raised above 15 mm of water column." If there were different boilers, there would be a different permissible excess boost pressure. Like, for example, on the Retvizan, with its Nikloss boilers.

                        Thank you for your attention, dear Andrey.
                      11. +2
                        30 May 2026 18: 56
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Your attempt to claim that a 1/2" water column boost in the stokeholds is a trivial matter that could have been achieved without fan-assisted blowing, only by using "such large flares" on the air intake deflectors to capture the oncoming air currents on a ship underway, has been refuted by me with a quote from the book by the respected Rafail Mikhailovich, "Battleship Emperor Paul I" (1906-1925). No, such excess pressure required fan-assisted blowing in the boiler rooms.

                        Naturally, it was required. But the purpose of this "boost" was specifically to ventilate the stokeholds, not to boost the boilers, as is perfectly clear from Melnikov's quote, which I posted as a screenshot above.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Thus, without supercharging in the boiler rooms, with the hatches open, the engines of the battleship Emperor Paul I demonstrated an average power of 14,713 indicated horsepower.

                        Missed again. The quote seems to say it in plain English.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        The commission carried out a verification test of the mechanisms for 3 hours at 0,9 of the highest number of revolutions of the main machines obtained during their official test, i.e. at 100–101 revolutions.

                        So the purpose of the test was to see how the battleship's engines operated at a limited RPM, which is what was accomplished. Naturally, the power was reduced. This was in no way a consequence of forced airflow. So, it's impossible to say.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        The use of forced blast, when fans in closed boiler rooms provided excess pressure of 1/2" of water column, increased the power of the battleship's engines by 3883,5 indicated forces, or approximately 26,4%.

                        a little absurd.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        However, I already have a rough idea of ​​what kind of objections you might write.

                        I think you already understand how wrong you were, and that’s why you understand what I’ll write to you in response.
                        You're constantly trying to find evidence that boiler boosting was used during RIF tests. Yet, you completely ignore what Melnikov DIRECTLY pointed out.
                        "The MTC considered it necessary to achieve contract speeds with natural thrust."
                      12. -1
                        30 May 2026 21: 13
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Naturally, it was required. But the purpose of this "boost" was precisely to ventilate the boiler rooms.

                        The purpose of fan-assisted forced air blowing in boiler rooms (this is when air was forced into the boiler room with closed hatches and doors) was precisely to intensify combustion in the boiler furnaces.

                        The fans worked both with forced and natural draft (see quotes describing the tests of the "Emperor Paul I"), but with the hatches and doors of the boiler rooms open, the aforementioned excess air pressure forcing the combustion of coal at 1/2" of water column above atmospheric pressure (in any case, not higher than 15 mm of water column for Belleville boilers) simply did not form.

                        Coal combustion at this draft was normal, i.e. in this case no more than 90-100 kg of coal burned per 1 square meter of grate per hour.

                        This is a general case of operation of old fire-tube boilers and new water-tube boilers using natural draft and forced air ventilation in the boiler rooms. I simply don't consider specific cases, such as supplying air from fans directly to the boiler furnace ash pans, compressor-assisted forced air ventilation in the firebox, etc., nor do I consider the maximum excess forced air pressure in the boiler rooms that was permissible for certain boiler types.
                        I think you already understand how wrong you were, and that’s why you understand what I’ll write to you in response.

                        In general, in this thread on the question of what natural draft is and what forced draft is, why forced draft couldn't be done without fans, why the boiler rooms were sealed and excess pressure built up in them (for different types of boilers, it was considered different; for Belleville boilers in the domestic Navy, excess pressure in the stokeholds of no more than 15 mm of water column was considered acceptable) I have chewed over in such detail that an average knowledge of high school chemistry and physics is enough to understand everything.

                        And if you keep writing to me, "You've already realized how wrong you are," then I, while I have no doubt that you did well in physics and chemistry at school, as well as in your mental abilities, come to the conclusion that you're simply waiting for me to get tired of it. I'm tired of it.
                        During the RIF tests, boilers were forced. Yet, you completely ignore what Melnikov DIRECTLY pointed out.

                        The respected Melnikov, in his book, essentially revealed that the cunning MTK tried to extract "increased obligations" from Kramp to build a battleship according to his design, capable of achieving the contractual 18-knot speed without forcing the boilers with fan-assisted supercharging of the stokeholds, something that had not been required of domestic designers for a long time. But Crump wasn't an idiot either. He not only secured Nikloss boilers, which were lighter than Belleville boilers, but also achieved the 18-knot contract speed in boost mode for these boilers, not with the 1/2" water column accepted in Russia for Belleville boilers, but with the internationally accepted excess air pressure values ​​for Nikloss boilers in the boiler rooms. And if any authors wrote that "this wasn't previously allowed in Russia," they simply didn't understand. It was allowed. Moreover, it was common practice for the contract speed to be achieved only when boosting boilers with an excess air pressure of 1/2" water column in the stokeholds. See the page with the Rurik's specifications. The only thing that wasn't allowed was high, but still acceptable for Nikloss boilers, excess air boost pressure values, because we had Belleville boilers. And for Belleville the standard is 1/2", and higher than 15 mm is not allowed.

                        Okay, dear Andrey, I'm sure you've fully grasped the issue of whether a shaped blast was acceptable in the Russian Imperial Navy at the turn of the 20th century to achieve full speed (despite the fact that highly respected authors, including the esteemed R.M. Melnikov, have written about its inadmissibility). Just as you previously understood that not every explosion is a detonation, and not every detonation is a full detonation. That 45 grams of dry pyroxylin in an intermediate detonator was clearly insufficient to reliably trigger a full detonation of wet pyroxylin explosive charges with 18% or higher moisture content. That wet pyroxylin charges at the turn of the century generally couldn't withstand a shell impact "on modern armor" without detonating, even with a heterogeneous armor plate thickness greater than half the shell's caliber. That domestic double-cap fuses of the late 19th century without a pyrotechnic delay element in the firing chain were inertial fuses of ordinary, not delayed action, and a number of other issues that we have previously discussed with you.

                        Thank you for your attention and for engaging in this conversation. I'll stop writing my long-winded comments on this very issue.
                      13. +4
                        30 May 2026 22: 01
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        I will finish writing my long-winded comments on this very issue.

                        Thank you :)) I might still write an article dedicated to forcing boilers in RIF
                      14. 0
                        31 May 2026 12: 53
                        I might still write an article about forcing boilers in RIF

                        Holy shit!!! This article is about something that never happened!
                        Damn, I can't find any recent info/article about the two Belleville modes: burning 100 kg of coal and 135 kg of coal using natural draft.
                        If you read on, maybe you'll come across it somewhere at Golova.
                      15. 0
                        10 June 2026 20: 30
                        I'm glad that I may have inspired you to write one.)
                    2. The comment was deleted.
        2. +3
          28 May 2026 17: 47
          Quote: AlexanderA
          My comment, as always verbose, was lost.

          God bless:))))
          Quote: AlexanderA
          What's the justification? That in 1897, at the ITC meetings, the Italian cruiser "Carlo Alberto" (construction started in 1891, commissioned in 1898, designed speed 19 knots) was mentioned, but not the "Garibaldi"

          The Carlo Alberto was never considered as a prototype for the Bayan. The meeting reviewed cruisers that other navies might consider serving with squadrons, in order to gain an overview of what was being built around the world. The Carlo Alberto was one of these, the Garibaldi was not.
          The Garibaldi was designed for completely different purposes than the Bayan; it wasn't its analogue. Why would MTK even consider it? You might as well blame MTK for not considering the Majestic-class battleships as prototypes for the Bayan.
          Quote: AlexanderA

          "Garibaldi" is a 20-knot cruiser, dear Andrey. Perhaps you'll admit it?

          Only in your fantasies. It's 18-knot.
          Quote: AlexanderA

          The Garibaldi had a crane manipulator with a design capacity of 13,000 indicated horsepower and fire-tube boilers.

          Incorrect. Garibaldi's crane had a design power of 8,500 hp. It was supposed to produce 13,000 hp under boost.
          To achieve a 21-knot Garibaldi, it was necessary to install a crane manipulator capable of producing 17,900 horsepower under natural thrust—more than twice the power of its predecessor.
        3. +4
          28 May 2026 21: 46
          Am I correct in understanding that in 1897 the MTK was unaware of the slow speed of the 19-knot cruiser designed by the Carlo Alberto, but knew of the slow speed of the 20-knot cruiser designed by the Garibaldi, which had been demonstrated during sea trials in 1896, judging by the book by the respected V. L. Kofman, "Armored cruisers of the Garibaldi type": "Average results of six runs: power 13,384 hp at 104 engine revolutions - 19,95 knots"?

          " El acorazado "San Martin"--Han terminado de un modo satisfactorio las pruebas de artillería y de resistencia de los montajes hechos recientemente à bordo por la comisión de recepción del buque, en presencia del representante de la casa de Armstrong.
          Las pruebas de velocidad del buque, á tiraje natural, también se han efectuado, dando 18,6 nudos, en una media de seis corridas en la milla medida.
          " .Bulletin of the Naval Center, Argentina, 1898.

          I think this will put an end to your disagreements with Andrey about the speed of natural traction.
  12. + 10
    28 May 2026 22: 40
    And today is another anniversary of Tsushima...
    1. +6
      29 May 2026 12: 01
      May the Kingdom of Heaven be with the Russian sailors who rested at the bottom of the Tsushima Strait...
  13. 0
    29 May 2026 17: 14
    Quote: Adrey
    I'm aware of all this. I'm just curious to see the results. For example, the Albatross being thrashed by similar ships wasn't at all impressive.

    And "Itsukushima" is very...
  14. +1
    29 May 2026 18: 21
    Quote: TermNachTER
    The engine was removed because it wasn't needed on a training ship. How did this affect the hull's strength?

    Doesn't the boiler room that the "Sakhalin convicts" blew up count???
  15. +1
    1 June 2026 12: 24
    When will the series continue?
  16. 0
    3 June 2026 19: 46
    As for Varese, it's quite possible the Italians simply couldn't get into Belleville boilers at the time. And a "mere" 500 horsepower increase isn't something you'd expect. If Belleville boilers weren't superior to fire-tube boilers, the entire world wouldn't have switched to them.
  17. 0
    14 August 2026 11: 15
    Yes, the Poltavas cruised at 13-14 knots in 1904. That was the RIF squadron speed in combat. The British and Yankees had a speed of 14,5 knots, and the Japanese had 15 knots. According to Alekseyev's notes, the squadron's speed was limited by the Sevastopol, both of whose engines suffered deformation damage during sea trials as a result of sabotage by workers at the Franco-Russian Shipyard. Instead of repairs, the MTK pushed the battleship to the Far East and sent spare parts to Port Arthur, but only one of the Sevastopol's engines was repaired before the war began. Regarding the Rurik in the Korean War, that's not true. The first mate of the Gromoboi wrote that the Rurik was constantly "pressing" on the Gromoboi from behind. This is not surprising, since the Rurik achieved its nearly 19 knots with natural boiler heating. And its speed drop during the battle wasn't due to a malfunction; it was forced to stop completely to avoid a collision with the Gromoboi, when the lead Rossiya slowed to 11 knots due to damage to its funnels, as its dimwitted chief engineer had failed to slow down the blower motors at the start of the battle, as required by the instructions.
  18. 0
    29 August 2026 13: 30
    Well, what can I say about the Bayan? It's only "beautiful and elegant!" The design is good, the execution less so. The French built flawed designs for themselves, too; remember De Lom and D'Entrecasteaux. British contractors even sabotaged the production of components for the Bayan's powerplant. They, unlike most Russophobic commentators, immediately saw the potential of the Bayan and the 6,000-tonne class, which is why they rushed to build the County series. According to the design, the Bayan's powerplant was rated at 13600 hp with natural heating, 16500 hp with a boiler pressure of 38 mm H2O, and 20000 hp with a pressure of 50 mm H2O. But as everyone knows, the Bayan, due to a faulty boiler feed system, reacted negatively to forced heating. But its Russian-built post-war copies, the Admiral Makarov, Pallada-II, and Bayan-II, exceeded all expectations under propulsion. The Makarov developed a maximum power of 19380 hp and a speed of 22,5 knots under propulsion, while the Pallada, with 22000 hp, reached 24,2 knots. So, once the stokers were trained and the quality improved, the results were achieved. Incidentally, the much-maligned Boyarin was not without its surprises either. After the first unsuccessful Boyarin design submitted to the Moscow Transport Committee, the director of the B. og V. shipyard handed the project over to his long-time colleagues at the Blohm und Voss shipyards for revision, who completely redesigned the cruiser and its propulsion system. Therefore, the Boyarin, according to the design, had a boosted power output of 16000 hp. and a speed of 24,0 knots. No boost was applied during official testing, but it did reach this speed during one run. During factory trials, it even exceeded this speed, which is confirmed by two foreign sources.