Armored cruiser Bayan. Selection of performance characteristics and design

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Armored cruiser Bayan. Selection of performance characteristics and design

Thus, on April 27, 1897, at a meeting of the MTC's shipbuilding department, designs submitted by the French firm Forge et Chantier were reviewed. However, none of them were deemed satisfactory as a prototype for the newest Russian cruiser. The meeting then turned to foreign cruisers whose performance characteristics were known, but a suitable prototype was not found among them. Nevertheless, from the wide variety of types and designs, the meeting singled out the armored cruiser Esmeralda, built by the Armstrong shipyard for Chile, not as a prototype, but rather as a benchmark to be considered when designing the ship.

The next meeting on the new cruiser took place on May 7 of the same year. It was much more representative: present were Admiral K.P. Pilkin, Vice-Admirals N.I. Kaznakov, I.M. Dikov, S.P. Tyrtov, S.O. Makarov, F.K. Avelan, Rear Admirals N.I. Skrydlov, N.N. Lomen, and MTC inspectors for artillery Major General A.S. Krotkov, Mechanical Engineering Director N.G. Nozikov, and Shipbuilding Director N.E. Kuteinikov. The meeting was chaired by P.P. Tyrtov, Administrator of the Ministry of the Navy. Naturally, he was familiar with the minutes of the April 27, 1897, meeting of the MTC's Shipbuilding Department. And it was he who, at the very beginning of the meeting, made two fundamental statements.

First, he informed the meeting that the Naval Ministry had the funds to order one or two ships of approximately 6000 tons displacement, but since there were no available slipways in Russia, the ship (or two) would be built abroad. Second, P.P. Tyrtov pointed out that, in accordance with...

...approved in July 1895 by the plan of shipbuilding works for the coming seven years (1896-1902) and taking into account the urgent need for our fleet In cruisers, it is proposed to order ships of this very type, and these cruisers will have to carry out reconnaissance service with the squadron, without ceasing to be combat ships at the same time.

The esteemed assembly has reconsidered all the points I have described in previous article Projects and cruisers: a citadel cruiser with a speed of 22 and 24 knots, versions of the enlarged Svetlana of 1,000 and 2,000 tons, the French armored cruisers Dupuy de Lôme and Potuo, the German Victoria Louise, the British armored deck Arrogant and the armored Esmeralda. Additionally, the following were taken into account:

1. The British armored deck cruiser Edgar (7,350 tons, 18,5 knots with natural draft and 20 knots with artificial draft, deck 25-76 mm, slopes 127 mm, casemates 152 mm, conning tower 305 mm, armament: 2 * 9,2-inch (234-mm), 10 * 6-inch, 12 * 57-mm, 5 * 47-mm, 4 * 457-mm torpedo tubes);

2. Italian armored cruiser Carlo Alberto - 6,500 tons, 18,6-19,1 knots, 150 mm side, 37 mm deck, 50 mm gun shields, 150 mm conning tower, armament: 12*6-inch, 4-6*120-mm, 14*57-mm, 8*37-mm guns, 4*450-mm torpedo tubes.

In addition to these, some projects for cruisers with a displacement of 5225 and 5700 tons were also considered, the characteristics of which, unfortunately, are unknown to me.

All of the above-mentioned cruiser class representatives were compared with the Diana-class cruisers currently under construction in Russia. What do they have to do with it?

The fact is that, when determining the performance characteristics of the Pallada and Diana, our admirals desired a reconnaissance cruiser for the squadron that would also be capable of disrupting enemy trade along oceanic routes. This versatility, of course, led to a certain increase in the cruiser's size, as a pure reconnaissance cruiser could have been built with a smaller displacement.

Now, however, the admirals had something else in mind: they wanted a ship roughly equal in size to the Pallada, whose "excess" displacement beyond that needed for a scout would be used not for endurance and range, but for increased combat effectiveness. Of course, such a cruiser was in no way designed for line combat; it could not be placed in battleship formations.

But it was expected that such a cruiser, operating outside the line of battleships, would still be capable of participating in a squadron battle, although it remained unclear to me in what capacity. One might assume that this meant fire support, in which the cruiser, while outside the line, would fire at engaged enemy battleships, or combat with enemy cruisers attempting to do the same to our squadron battleships.

The Diana-class cruisers were obviously not ideal for this, but among all the other cruisers considered, no ship met the admirals' requirements. The cruiser had to be armored, which immediately ruled out all armored deck options. Of the remaining options, the citadel cruiser was deemed too unconventional—the attempt to replace the armored deck with intricately shaped casemates failed to resonate with our admirals. They rightly noted that horizontal armor on a ship cannot be replaced by vertical protection, even if that protection is angled. The French Dupuy-de-Lôme was "overwhelmed by armor," sacrificing speed and range; the Esmeralda lacked a double bottom and artillery protection, etc. Accordingly, all the presented "candidates" for the Russian cruiser prototype:

The main combat elements of the ship: artillery, the ship's movement, the protection of the hull and artillery, and, finally, the coal supply, are not coordinated with each other as much as is desirable for our cruiser, which will have to cruise in more limited areas, depending on the location of the main combat forces, and at the same time will have to act in combat, in connection with squadron battleships.

But now, having carefully studied the designs proposed by Forge et Chantier and the performance characteristics of other cruisers from other countries, and thus having received a starting point and an understanding of what could be demanded from the foreign shipbuilding industry, the meeting could determine the main performance characteristics and design features of the future Bayan.


The armored cruiser Esmeralda is, in a sense, the forerunner of the Bayan

Design assignment


1. Displacement no more than 7,000 tons. At the same time, the meeting initially limited the displacement to 6,700 tons, but many admirals opposed this, believing that 6,700 tons would not be enough;

2. The normal coal load was set at 10-12% of the displacement. The speed was to be 21 knots without forcing the boilers, and this was to be confirmed as an average during 24-hour continuous trials. The full coal load was to be no more than 1,5 times the normal load and ensure a range of 7000-8000 miles at a speed of 10 knots.

The oddity of this last requirement is striking. If we take the minimum and maximum coal capacity of a new cruiser with a displacement of 6,700 tons, the result would be 1,005–1,206 tons. But let's recall that the armored cruiser Diana, which had a similar displacement (6,731 tons) and was designed as a scout-raider, had a full coal capacity of only 972 tons. So, it turns out that the newly designed scout-combatant, which was to operate "in more limited areas," was allowed to have a coal capacity 1,24 times greater than that of a scout-raider designed, among other things, for ocean communications? This in itself is odd, but what's more interesting is that the Diana's range at 10 knots was determined to be only 4,000 miles. It turns out that the new cruiser, with the same displacement, was allowed to carry 1,24 times more coal than the Diana, but its cruising range was expected to be 1,75–2 times greater!

I haven't found any explanation for this phenomenon in the sources. However, I can surmise that the admirals didn't consider the Diana-class cruisers' lines optimal and thought the French could design them much better, which would lead to an increase in range. I also suspect that this was a "high-stakes" assignment, meaning the Naval Ministry's leadership was attempting to squeeze the maximum out of the foreign contractors. Although they were certainly aware, to put it mildly, that their required specifications were somewhat overstated.

3. The hull must have a standard design (double bottom), with the underwater section sheathed in wood and copper. Copper sheathing was later abandoned, which was certainly appropriate, but it was included in the original specifications.

4. Power plant - twin-screw.

5. Boilers are permitted exclusively of the Belleville system, with economizers. The fresh water supply must be determined proportionally to the indicated power of the machines, at a rate of 1 ton of water per 100 indicated power. This water supply must be sufficient for the maximum distance covered by the coal reserves.

6. The armor was to be based on vertical armor, protecting the side at a height above the load waterline of at least 16% of the ship's width, and a carapace (i.e., sloped) deck. The requirement for the side armor seems odd, but the intended purpose was for its upper edge to be level with the deck "first above the carapace." It's noteworthy that the armor belt thickness was not specified—only the armor height.

It should be noted that there was some friction among the admirals regarding armor, which is all the more difficult to resolve given the uncertainty about the exact thickness of side armor they considered sufficient. Based on some indirect evidence, I can surmise that they were discussing 60 mm—the same thickness of armor plates used on the French "Potu." To support this hypothesis, I will cite two facts.

First, the initial meeting required the future cruiser's side to be armored all the way to the upper deck. Recall that the Dupuy-de-Lôme, which met this requirement but carried 100mm of armor, was considered "overwhelmed by armor at the expense of speed and range." In this light, the Potou's armor belt, reduced to 60mm, would have seemed quite adequate. Second, S.O. Makarov expressed a dissenting opinion at the meeting, declaring that 60mm armor was useless as an armor belt. He argued that such armor would be easily penetrated by shells with armor-piercing tips, even from medium-caliber artillery, and was therefore unnecessary. He proposed eliminating it altogether in order to conserve displacement.

There were other proposals, too. Rear Admiral N. N. Lomen proposed an armor belt along the entire waterline, 127 mm thick in the middle section and at least 2 meters high, with the armor height at the bow extending at least to the middle deck. However, the initial requirement for armoring the sides below the upper deck was ultimately amended at the insistence of N. E. Kuteinikov. He also advocated the need for double protection, that is, an armor belt and sloped carapace decks—this option became the final one in the design specifications.

7. The armament was to consist of 2 x 8-inch, 8 x 10 x 6-inch, and 20 x 75-mm guns, as well as three torpedo tubes—one in the bow and two submerged on the sides. The 8-inch guns were to be located in turrets, all 6-inch guns and some 75-mm guns in casemates. The artillery was to be positioned so that five 6-inch guns each could fire at the bow and stern.

Initially, the meeting considered it acceptable to place 8-inch guns in deck mounts behind the shields, and the general arrangement of the guns was to ensure that only three 6-8 inch caliber guns could fire into the bow and stern.


8-inch/45 gun of the armored cruiser Rossiya

But Rear Admiral N.N. Lomen opposed this, insisting on a turret-mounted main battery. He also emphasized the need to increase chase and retreat fire.

The point was that, initially, since they had decided to turn the future cruiser into a "combat vessel," the admirals believed that chase and retreat fire would be of little use, since the battle would, after all, be conducted broadside. This explains the initial sufficiency of three guns, firing bow and stern. But N.N. Lomen pointed out that enemy cruisers could develop more powerful fire, "and it would be unwise for us not to have what and how our adversaries are armed." Furthermore, the rear admiral quite rightly pointed out the importance of chase and retreat fire for a reconnaissance cruiser, which would both attack enemy "second-rank" cruisers if they attempted to approach the squadron and engage in combat while retreating. He proposed turrets for 8-inch guns for the same reason, since in a battle at sharp course angles, the failure of a bow or stern eight-inch gun would critically weaken the power of artillery fire.

N. N. Lomen also had another sensible proposal. He recommended placing half of the 6-inch guns on the upper deck, with the artillery of this caliber housed in two-story casemates. He explained his proposal by arguing that in fresh weather, half the 6-inch guns would have a significant advantage. Unfortunately, this proposal was not accepted, possibly due to the excessive increase in upper weight and the corresponding decrease in the future ship's stability.

8. The cruiser was to have one or two combat tops for the placement of small-caliber artillery and a ram “of the type accepted in our fleet.”

In this form, the design brief for the cruiser was approved by the Admiral General and sent to A.M. Abaza in France on June 11, 1897. In October-November 1897, the Naval Ministry received three designs for "armored scouts," which I will briefly review below in order of their compliance with the requirements of the specifications.

Cruiser project from Atelier et Chantiers de la Loire


Displacement 6,741 tons, normal coal capacity - 8% (539 tons), armament: 2 x 8-inch, 8 x 6-inch, 20 x 75-mm, 10 x 47-mm, 8 x 37-mm, number of torpedo tubes unknown. Range - 7,500 miles with "emergency" coal reserves.


Advantages. The designers managed to fit the cruiser into the specified displacement specifications, and in addition, almost all of the cruiser's artillery, with the exception of the 4 x 75 mm guns, was located on the upper deck, which significantly improved the conditions for conducting fire combat in fresh weather.

Disadvantages. The placement of the guns on the upper deck was also a design flaw, as the 6-inch guns were mounted not in casemates, but in an unarmored superstructure and were equipped only with shields. This design grossly violated the technical specifications and was unacceptable. Furthermore, MTK specialists noted numerous irregularities in the shipbuilding calculations.

Unlike other designs submitted by the French, the cruiser featured a highly developed superstructure on the upper deck, effectively an additional deck in the form of a spar deck (forming the roof of this superstructure). This design obviously meant increasing the hull's weight, but the hull's contribution to the load in the Atelier et Chantiers de la Loire design was the same as in cruisers of other designs that did not feature such a superstructure. Furthermore, the cruiser's width-to-depth ratio was 2,48, while in other designs it reached 2,66. This was not a problem, but with such a ratio one would expect the cruiser's metacentric height to be lower than in other designs. However, it miraculously turned out to be higher—1,19 m versus 0,91–0,99 m for its competitors.

All of the above led the MTC to the conclusion that the cruiser's hull was overly lightweight, and the metacentric height was likely miscalculated. Moreover, I would add, given the significant upper weights associated with the extensive superstructure and the placement of artillery on the upper deck and spar deck, this error could have been quite significant. However, the MTC had no intention of "correcting the errors" and simply shelved the project as completely unusable.

Cruiser project of the Le Havre branch of the Forges et Chantiers company


Displacement 6,950/7,550 tons, normal coal capacity - 10% (695-755 tons), armament 2 x 8-inch, 10 x 6-inch, 20 x 75-mm, 8 x 47-mm, number of torpedo tubes unknown. Range - 8,035 miles with "emergency" coal capacity.


The cruiser was presented in two variants. The first, as required by the specifications, had Belleville boilers and a displacement of 7,550 tons. The second had Norman-Sigody boilers, which reduced the normal displacement to 6,950 tons. The "small" MTK variant wasn't even considered; Norman-Sigody boilers were of no interest to the Navy, which was a shame! In defense of the MTK, it must be said that Norman-Sigody boilers were unknown to our navy, while Belleville boilers had proven themselves to be highly reliable.

Advantages. The most powerful artillery armament—the number of 6-inch guns—was 10, while all other projects had 8. Unfortunately, this project had no other noticeable advantages.

Disadvantages. The cruiser was inadequately protected. The side armor was only 75 mm thick, and that's only if you include the side armor, which was made of ordinary steel. Furthermore, it only extended halfway along the cruiser's length, leaving the ends exposed. Perhaps this protection alone could have ruined the project, but the list of shortcomings was only beginning.

Since only half the waterline was protected by armor, it would have been logical to design a carapace deck with powerful slopes at the ends to at least provide some protection. But no—at the bow, the carapace deck ended 16 meters from the stem. True, the designers included a "double cofferdam with a double patented self-acting patch designed by engineer Coville," but MTK didn't believe in its miraculous properties. This cofferdam was already present on the armored cruiser Svetlana, which was under construction, and MTK specialists had no objection to it in principle, but from a protection standpoint, it was better than nothing, and that was all.

Contrary to the specifications, only 6-inch artillery was housed in casemates; all 75mm guns were mounted in the open. Even so, the casemates were very cramped and lacked internal bulkheads, meaning a shell penetrating the armor could wreak havoc. Overall, the cruiser's protection was deemed completely unsatisfactory, due to the small proportion of the load allocated to it—14,88% of the normal displacement, compared to 18,25% for the Loire design.

There were other shortcomings, too. For example, the middle casemate, located amidships, lacked its own magazines, making ammunition supply difficult, to say the least. The double bottom extended only as far as the hull, so the coal in the side coal pits was "adjacent" to the outer side plating. The engine rooms lacked longitudinal bulkheads, which, from a survivability standpoint, was completely unacceptable. The problem wasn't that there wasn't enough weight for these bulkheads, but that the compartments were so crowded together that they simply wouldn't fit.

The project was rejected due to the unacceptable crowding of 6-inch artillery and completely unsatisfactory protection of the extremities.

Cruiser project by the Toulon branch of the Forges et Chantiers company


Displacement 7,800 tons, normal coal capacity - 9,6% (749 tons), armament: 2 x 8-inch, 8 x 6-inch, 20 x 75-mm, 7 x 47-mm, number of torpedo tubes unknown. Range - 7,800 miles with "emergency" coal reserves.


This project made such a lasting impression on MTC that the latter did not even reprimand the developer, A. Lagan, for exceeding the displacement by 800 tons.

Advantages. The ship's protection was excellent. While the Le Havre design provided 1,059 tons of armor, the Toulon design provided almost 40% more—1,478 tons. Accordingly, the artillery protection was much better: as in the Le Havre design, the ship had three casemates, but these housed not only the 6-inch guns, as the Le Havre designers had, but also some of the 75 mm guns, as required by the specifications. Moreover, the casemates were properly designed—each gun was shielded from its neighbors by armored bulkheads.

However, in terms of side protection, A. Lagan violated the requirements of the technical specifications. Instead of double protection with an armor belt and deck slopes, he left only a single armor belt—the armor deck was horizontal. However, this belt was very long, and the thickness of its armor plates along most of the ship's length reached a record 200 mm.

A. Lagan's explanation for violating the specifications in this regard was based on the fact that eliminating the slopes allowed for an increase in the thickness of the armor belt—which he, in fact, demonstrated in his design. The Le Havre design by Forges et Chantiers complied with the specifications in terms of armor layout, but its belt armor was only 75 mm thick with the side armor, and probably 60-63 mm without it. Moreover, to understand how much the armor protection of such a belt was inferior to the 200 mm of A. Lagan's design, it would be completely insufficient to divide 200 mm by 60 mm and conclude that the vertical side armor of the Le Havre design was more than three times as thick. It should also be taken into account that armor of 60 mm plus was too thin at the time to be cemented. Consequently, A. Lagan's armor belt was cemented, while his opponent's was homogeneous, which further reduced the armor's durability. Therefore, and beyond any doubt, the thinner armor belt was relatively easy to penetrate, while only large-caliber shells from squadron battleships could defeat the 200 mm of armor used by A. Lagan. In light of the above, it is necessary to consider A. Lagan's arguments, as he presented them.

Firstly, a shell penetrating a relatively weak armor belt can either hit the bevel or, "reflected" by the latter, simply break off the penetrated armor plate, throwing it overboard. This would open a wide path for water to enter the hull, potentially leading to the destruction of the ship.

Secondly, even if the penetrated plate remained in place, and the bevel held up and did not let through either the shell or its fragments, the triangular space formed by the armor belt and the bevel adjacent to its lower edge will still be flooded.

Thirdly, the absence of bevels increases the useful volume of the armored space of the hull, which, in turn, greatly facilitates the rational placement of mechanisms and other cargo.

These arguments, when applied to armor systems in general, did not demonstrate that the "double" protection of an armor belt and a sloped hull was weaker than that of an armor belt alone. Of course, the argument about better placement of machinery and cargo was undeniable, and other arguments undoubtedly had some bearing. The fact that a sloped hull, even with a penetrated side, was incapable of preventing water from entering the hull was the main reason the Naval Ministry rejected the construction of an armored cruiser with an armored deck in favor of an armored cruiser.

However, this "single" protection had one significant drawback. If the armor was penetrated, the vehicles, machinery, and other vital components and cargo were completely unprotected from the blast and shrapnel of an exploding shell. This is why, despite all the reasons cited by A. Lagan, the Russian Imperial Navy generally preferred double protection—an armor belt and a sloped armor plate.

But in this particular case, it was deemed that a 200mm armor belt, three longitudinal bulkheads behind it, the space between which could, if desired, be filled with some kind of "water-excluding substance," would provide sufficient protection. Accordingly, the armor scheme proposed by A. Lagane was accepted without objection.

Disadvantages. Of course, A. Lagan's design wasn't all about advantages, but I'll discuss the shortcomings of the armored cruiser Bayan later, when analyzing its performance characteristics. I'll note here that, according to the specifications, the only significant drawback was the 800-ton excess displacement. However, the Ministry of Transport and Communications deemed this increase an acceptable tradeoff for the design's other qualities.

It's quite clear that A. Lagan's design was the clear winner in this small competition, leaving its competitors far behind. It's therefore no surprise that the Naval Ministry chose it. For my part, I can only express regret that shipbuilders from countries other than France were not allowed to participate in the competition for the armored cruiser "Bayan"—it would have been quite interesting to see how they would have solved the problem posed by our Naval Ministry.

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  1. +3
    19 May 2026 04: 56
    While studying at the institute, we were told how knowledge is retained if it's not recalled and used. After five years of graduating, 25-50% of the knowledge is lost. After ten, another 50% of the remaining knowledge. Over the past twenty years, a person can only recall the name of the university and perhaps the correct department where they studied. What's my point? What knowledge could these admirals possibly have to correctly draft a modern design specification for a warship? This also applies to modern admirals, looking at the development and state of the Russian Navy. Instead of working closely with young engineers, they think in terms of the remnants of knowledge they acquired in colleges thirty to fifty years ago, even though science and engineering have already advanced far beyond their current level. Makarov and Krylov were already around back then, but they weren't in demand. We've always, and continue to do so, looking over the fence, wondering how they're doing, and let them do it for us. This is happening not only in the Navy but also in aviation and automotive engineering. We can no longer make good conservative designs, or copies of airplanes, ships, or cars. hi
    1. +6
      19 May 2026 05: 43
      Quote: V.
      This is happening not only in the navy but also in aviation and automotive engineering. We can no longer produce good, conservative designs, or copies of airplanes, ships, or automobiles.

      I know of a publishing house, and more than one, that buys books from foreign publishers and translates them into Russian. They don't have our own authors, although they could do at least as well. But our own need to be paid more—to pay artists, designers, authors. And they want not just profit, but superprofits. Hence the copying of everything and everyone. This has been the case for a long time... And it applies to absolutely everything, including weapons.
      1. +3
        19 May 2026 09: 28
        They don’t have our own authors, although they could have done at least as well.

        Yes, it's a shame :)).
        Publishers are understandable—they want a proven, predictable result. The current state of affairs is such that they don't have the money to experiment with whether it will sell or not. This, unfortunately, is our current reality :((...
      2. +1
        19 May 2026 11: 09
        Quote: kalibr
        Quote: V.
        This is happening not only in the navy but also in aviation and automotive engineering. We can no longer produce good, conservative designs, or copies of airplanes, ships, or automobiles.

        I know of a publishing house, and more than one, that buys books from foreign publishers and translates them into Russian. They don't have our own authors, although they could do at least as well. But our own need to be paid more—to pay artists, designers, authors. And they want not just profit, but superprofits. Hence the copying of everything and everyone. This has been the case for a long time... And it applies to absolutely everything, including weapons.

        Don't confuse books and weapons.
        A buyer will buy a product they've heard about and read reviews about. And in this case, they'll choose Tolkien or Abercrombie over some Makhrov with his time-travelers.
        1. +4
          19 May 2026 11: 50
          Quote: Panin (Michman)
          And in this case he will choose Tolkien or Abercrombie instead of some Makhrov with his time travelers.

          Besides Makhrov and his time-travelers, there are many other interesting authors. Believe me, there are quite a few. I'm not talking about fiction here, but rather books on weapons and general history.
          1. -1
            19 May 2026 15: 37
            Quote: kalibr
            Quote: Panin (Michman)
            And in this case he will choose Tolkien or Abercrombie instead of some Makhrov with his time travelers.

            Besides Makhrov and his time-travelers, there are many other interesting authors. Believe me, there are quite a few. I'm not talking about fiction here, but rather books on weapons and general history.

            Well, there are famous historians of weapons, like Wilson (battleships in battle, ironclads in battle). If a series became a bestseller, why shouldn't it be published? No, should we commission our writer to analyze it all again, delve into the archives? Most battles and history have been analyzed in depth, volumes of memoirs have been written, and who's going to write it all again now?
            1. +2
              19 May 2026 15: 53
              Quote: Panin (Michman)
              Most of the battles and history have been analyzed inside and out, volumes of memoirs have been written, and now someone is going to write it all again?

              Reasoning like this, we can do nothing ourselves, but buy everything with oil!
              1. 0
                19 May 2026 19: 07
                Quote: kalibr
                Quote: Panin (Michman)
                Most of the battles and history have been analyzed inside and out, volumes of memoirs have been written, and now someone is going to write it all again?

                Reasoning like this, we can do nothing ourselves, but buy everything with oil!

                It's better to do everything in three versions. But in different words. And get grants.
        2. +2
          19 May 2026 18: 35
          Quote: Panin (Michman)
          And in this case he will choose Tolkien or Abercrombie instead of some Makhrov with his time travelers.

          These authors have different target audiences.
          But you know, now both of them prefer to read electronic books rather than paper ones.
        3. Alf
          +2
          19 May 2026 19: 09
          Quote: Panin (Michman)
          A buyer will buy a product they've heard about and read reviews about. And in this case, they'll choose Tolkien or Abercrombie over some Makhrov with his time-travelers.

          Every product has its niche. I know many who would turn away from Tolkien, but Doynikov's books were eagerly bought.
      3. Alf
        +1
        19 May 2026 19: 06
        Quote: kalibr
        This is where everything and everyone comes from, in copies.

        Including both errors and outright lies from local sources.
    2. +9
      19 May 2026 06: 49
      Quote: V.
      What's my point? What knowledge could these admirals possibly have to properly draft a modern design specification for a warship?

      That is why all the MTCs were involved in drafting the technical specifications - the first meeting on the Bayan, which I wrote about in the previous article, took place
      "in the presence of all department heads, as well as naval engineers E. E. Gulyaev, N. E. Titov and artillery experts K. T. Dubrova and A. F. Brink"

      Moreover, not being entirely confident in the quality of their shipbuilding, they asked the French to submit several cruiser projects in advance.
      So I definitely don't see...
      Quote: V.
      At that time, Makarov and Krylov were already there, but they were not in demand.

      Well, Stepan Osipovich proposed building unarmored 3000-ton cruisers with 8-inch artillery instead of the Bayan. This, let's just say, was definitely not what the navy needed.
      Quote: V.
      We always, then and now, look over the fence and see how things are with them, let them do it for us.

      Why not? The Peresvets designed the Dianas themselves, but here the cruiser will be built abroad. Why not try foreign shipbuilders?
      1. -3
        19 May 2026 08: 58
        The meeting, as stated in the article, took place in 1897 and discussed archaic designs to select one for the Russian Navy. S.O. Makarov favored new naval tactics, proposing unarmored cruisers where speed was paramount, a concept he learned from his navigational experience. This idea was embodied in the construction of the Novik destroyers from 1910, a masterpiece of the Russian Navy. The construction of heavy cruisers or battleships is a different matter. In 1906, the British battleship Dreadnought was built, and all cruisers of the Bayan and Diana classes instantly became obsolete, both in speed and armament. Yet the elite of the navy, the leading shipbuilding experts, attended the meeting. Did they really not know about the British Dreadnought project, or did they know but consider it a failure?
        And then there was the Russo-Japanese War, Port Arthur, Tsushima. hi
        1. +8
          19 May 2026 09: 38
          Quote: V.
          But the whole elite, the leading shipbuilding experts, were at the meeting. Didn't they know about the British Dreadnought project?

          Vladimir, let's go in order :))))
          The dreadnought could not have been developed anywhere in 1897, including England. For it to have been developed, it was necessary to recognize that naval combat would be extended, that medium-caliber artillery would become ineffective at longer ranges, and that firing multiple calibers at long ranges was inconvenient.
          None of this existed in 1897, not a single prerequisite. The British themselves, in 1897, laid down completely classic Formidables with 4 x 12-inch and 12 x 6-inch guns, without even thinking about any dreadnoughts.
          The history of the Dreadnought design began in 1904 (the "Nepristopny" battleship project)
          Quote: V.
          S.O. Makarov was closer to the new tactics of naval combat, proposing unarmored cruisers where speed was paramount, a concept he learned from his navigational experience. This idea was embodied in the construction of the Novik destroyers from 1910, a masterpiece of the Russian navy.

          Absolutely not. Firstly, Makarov wasn't counting on speed at all; his "unarmored vessel" was supposed to have a top speed of 20 knots. Secondly, the Novik is a destroyer, a ship of a different class, whose design principles can't possibly be applied to cruisers. The Italians in Interbellum tried to build cruisers with record speeds—what a mess they ended up with.
          1. -1
            19 May 2026 16: 58
            I read the history of the Dreadnought's creation. The idea, the concept of such a ship with only large main guns of 280-305 mm caliber, originated with Admiral Fisher in the British Navy sometime before 1890, but at the time it was considered unreasonable. Only when Admiral Fisher became Chief Admiral of the Fleet did he return to the idea. First, he conducted firing range exercises with the large 305 mm caliber and, convinced of its effectiveness, pushed for the construction of the Dreadnought. Construction took place in an incredible timeframe for us. Design began in 1904, construction in 1905, and it was completed by 1907. Along with England, a battleship of this concept was also discussed in France and Italy. The controversy was openly publicized, and the British made no secret of it. Those were the days, and it's still difficult to hide such construction. I don't think our admirals and shipbuilders were unaware of it. Following the Russo-Japanese War, the British were pleased that they had made the right decision to build the Dreadnought. soldier
            1. +7
              19 May 2026 17: 26
              Quote: V.
              The idea, the concept of such a ship with only the main large artillery with a caliber of 280-305 mm arose in the mind of Admiral Fisher in the British navy somewhere before 1890, but then it was considered unreasonable

              And rightly so. In those years she was unreasonable.
              Quote: V.
              First, he conducted exercises at a firing range with a large caliber of 305 mm and, having become convinced of its effectiveness, achieved the construction of the Dreadnought.

              Not at all:))) Fisher tried firing at ranges of up to 30 kbt and realized that the existing methods weren't suitable. That is, he understood that firing the way they do now isn't necessary, but he couldn't find a way. But the British diligently searched, conducted various experiments, and tried to find a way. Nevertheless, even when the Dreadnought was being laid down, they didn't understand how to properly use its guns—that came later.
              Quote: V.
              The controversy was in the open press and the British did not hide anything.

              It was later
              Quote: V.
              Along with England, a battleship of this concept was also discussed in France and Italy.

              Yes. And here, for example, is the famous publication of Quinberty - this is from 1903. But there was no discussion in 1897 and there could not have been.
          2. Alf
            0
            19 May 2026 19: 14
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The design history of the Dreadnought began in 1904.

            But in 1903 there was also the Cuniberti project.
            1. +5
              19 May 2026 19: 42
              Quote: Alf
              But in 1903 there was also the Cuniberti project.

              We're talking about the British, not the Italians. And Quinberty's 1903 "project" is pure fantasy. In 1903, the British were building 16,000-ton King Edwards, standard 4x12-inch, 4x9,2-inch, and 10x6-inch ships with 229mm broadsides and a speed of 18,5 knots. And then an Italian comes along with a proposal to build a 17,000-ton battleship, 12x12-inch, with 305mm armor and a speed of 23-24 knots.
              Well, let me propose today that we build frigates with a displacement of 500 tons, 100 missiles on board, and a speed of 80 knots. It would be roughly the same thing.
              1. Alf
                +2
                19 May 2026 19: 49
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Well, let me propose today that we build frigates with a displacement of 500 tons, 100 missiles on board, and a speed of 80 knots. It would be roughly the same thing.

                Is that even possible? laughing
                1. +2
                  19 May 2026 19: 56
                  Quote: Alf
                  Is that even possible?

                  No. Quinberty's 1903 project was also just as fantastic, purely technically speaking.
                  1. Alf
                    +2
                    19 May 2026 20: 18
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Quote: Alf
                    Is that even possible?

                    No. Quinberty's 1903 project was also just as fantastic, purely technically speaking.

                    Science fiction may be science fiction, but the general idea was already in the air.
                    1. +2
                      19 May 2026 21: 44
                      Quote: Alf
                      but the general idea was already in the air.

                      Vasily, there are always a trillion and a half ideas in the air. That's the common thread among all ideas. :))) But back then, there was the most objective fact: to penetrate an ironclad's citadel, you had to get within 20 cable lengths, or better yet, closer, and at such distances, rapid-fire guns were expected to be more effective.
                      You must understand that a dreadnought isn't a ship with lots of big guns. It's a specific stage in the development of artillery. Without rangefinders and powerful 12-inch guns, you can't increase the combat range; without rapid-fire 12-inch guns, without the ability to fire salvos, sighting in will be a real pain, etc. If you build a dreadnought like a Dreadnought—that is, 10 x 12-inch guns of ours plus 75 mm—this "lognought" could easily destroy a classic battleship with luck.
                      1. Alf
                        0
                        19 May 2026 21: 52
                        If it can get within firing range. At a speed of 17 knots...
                      2. +1
                        20 May 2026 06: 00
                        Why can't he? :)) Lognot Quinberty would give 14 knots
            2. +3
              20 May 2026 11: 21
              Quote: Alf
              But in 1903 there was also the Cuniberti project.

              Plus the 1903 Newport Conference, which resulted in the cousins ​​deciding to begin designing a ship with a single-caliber main battery. And after two years of battling with proponents of dual-caliber (12" + 10") guns, they finally designed a classic battleship with two pairs of linearly elevated turrets. However, due to this struggle, the Navy was unable to justify increasing the displacement limit for the new ships to Congress, and they had to squeeze them into a 16 kiloton displacement.
        2. 0
          19 May 2026 15: 40
          Quote: V.
          The meeting, as stated in the article, took place in 1897 and discussed archaic designs to select one for the Russian Navy. S.O. Makarov favored new naval tactics, proposing unarmored cruisers where speed was paramount, a concept he learned from his navigational experience. This idea was embodied in the construction of the Novik destroyers from 1910, a masterpiece of the Russian Navy. The construction of heavy cruisers or battleships is a different matter. In 1906, the British battleship Dreadnought was built, and all cruisers of the Bayan and Diana classes instantly became obsolete, both in speed and armament. Yet the elite of the navy, the leading shipbuilding experts, attended the meeting. Did they really not know about the British Dreadnought project, or did they know but consider it a failure?
          And then there was the Russo-Japanese War, Port Arthur, Tsushima. hi

          Tsushima and Ryav were pre-dreadnought, however.
          And in the ravine the Asamoids ruled
          1. +5
            19 May 2026 23: 40
            Quote: Panin (Michman)
            And in the ravine the Asamoids ruled

            It's a myth. The Asamoids never achieved anything of significance in any battle.
            The main striking force was the Japanese battleships with 12-inch guns.
            1. +1
              20 May 2026 09: 33
              It's a myth. The Asamoids never achieved anything of significance in any battle.

              Strong, but wrong) Let's start with:
              1. The so-called "self-awareness" that completely paralyzed the Russian cruisers' actions far from Arthur. So, who was it that Bayan (!) immediately fled from the scene of the Strashny's death?
              2. Varangian?
              3. Rurik? Jessen's cruisers also fled not from Togo's battleships.
              4. Tsushima. The difference with the ZhM and their participation is that "hail of shells" is not only in the ~400 Japanese 12" "suitcases" released.
              So they were quite "in charge" although they weren't the "main striking force"))
              1. +4
                20 May 2026 10: 16
                Quote: anzar
                The so-called "self-fear" which completely paralyzed the actions of Russian cruisers far from Arthur

                This isn't a case of self-doubt. For example, "Beaver" was deployed to support positions near Jingzhou.
                There is a fear of an attack on the outer raid and on the Asamami in general.
                1. Andrey has already written about “Bayan” here.
                2. The balance of power is too unequal.
                3. "Rurik" sank itself to avoid being captured.
                4. Name an episode at Tsushima where the Asamoids inflicted decisive damage? I couldn't find any. They couldn't even destroy the Nakhimov with their entire force.
                1. 0
                  20 May 2026 13: 54
                  For example, "Bobr" came out in support...

                  Gunboats were considered unimportant, worth losing... Just like Novik. But what did Askold, Pallada, and Diana do? Max. 30 miles from Arthur.
                  2. The balance of power is too unequal.

                  It is precisely in this “ratio” of forces (with cruisers) that the contribution of the asamoids is decisive.
                  And what about the ratio of the battleships? (After the repair of the central and secondary engines.)
                  3. "Rurik" sank itself to avoid being captured.

                  Without any "bringing" of asamoids, but just like that...))
                  4. Name the episode of Tsushima where the decisive damage was caused by the Asamoids?

                  I can't say "decisive", only "ordinary"))
                  They couldn't even finish off the Nakhimov with their entire squad.

                  Perhaps, I don’t know the details, you’re an expert in this))
                  The truth is somewhere in the middle)) They are not superweapons, but they brought considerable benefits to the Japanese.
                  1. +2
                    20 May 2026 17: 31
                    Quote: anzar
                    It is precisely in this “ratio” of forces (with cruisers) that the contribution of the asamoids is decisive.

                    In 1904, asamoids were often used in this way - as a reinforcement for light forces.

                    Quote: anzar
                    Without any "bringing" of asamoids, but just like that...))

                    There, the lucky shot damaged the steering.

                    Quote: anzar
                    They are not superweapons, but they have brought considerable benefits to the Japanese.

                    There was definitely a benefit
      2. +2
        19 May 2026 10: 16
        Yeah, they designed and built something that's mind-blowing! Three of both were built. Did anyone really like the number three? Oh, and "Petropavlovsk," "Poltava," and "Sevastopol"—three of them, too.
        1. +4
          19 May 2026 11: 25
          Quote: TermNachTER
          Yeah, they designed and built something that would make you sick, holy saints!

          Despite all the shortcomings of the Dianas (you're talking about them, right?), they had one undeniable advantage - their size, which allowed them to be more tolerant of enemy hits.
          Let me remind you that Aurora survived Tsushima and safely reached the United States, despite the overwhelming odds. Diana also made it to a neutral port.
          The Japanese 3s were more sensitive to damage.
          1. +4
            19 May 2026 11: 43
            The hull's dimensions (volume) are needed to accommodate everything necessary—the power plant, weapons, crew, etc. No one ever carried just air. The large size of the "goddesses" made for large targets for Japanese guns. The "Aurora" didn't make it to the USA, but to Manila (Philippines)—not far at all. The "Askold" and "Diana," instead of breaking through to Vladivostok, dashed in the opposite direction. The "Diana" actually made it all the way to Saigon. 3,5 miles, while Vladivostok was 1000 miles away.
            1. +2
              19 May 2026 11: 48
              Quote: TermNachTER
              Instead of breaking through to Vladivostok, the Diana dashed in the opposite direction. The Diana even made it all the way to Saigon, 3,5 miles.

              You wrote it all yourself—that's a question for the cruiser's commander, not the cruiser itself. In theory, they could have waited for the 2nd TOE near Madagascar.
              1. +1
                19 May 2026 12: 33
                Of course, there are questions about the commander. But also about the ship itself, or rather, the designers. The VI cruiser weighs 7,100 tons, is armed with 8 x 152 mm guns, and has a speed of 19 knots. Compare it to the Bogatyr or the Italian Garibaldi. This isn't just a waste of money. Under Stalin, such a ship would have been classified as sabotage.
                1. +3
                  19 May 2026 13: 05
                  If I remember correctly, Diana-class cruisers were designed with "extra" boiler groups—in case of failure during raiding operations. Hence the size and displacement. They had handling issues, yes. And the "excess" 75mm guns—but for the Russian Navy, this weapon was considered quite suitable for combat. During WWI, they were upgraded to 14 152mm guns—that's better, right?
                  1. 0
                    19 May 2026 13: 27
                    What kind of ocean raiding operations can we talk about, with a range of 4000 miles and a speed of 19 knots? Any armored ship of the late 19th - early 20th centuries could catch the "Goddesses." And while the "Ruriks" had a chance to fight back thanks to their large number of guns, including 203mm ones, the "Goddesses," with their 8 x 152mm guns, had no chance at all.
                    Yes, they stuck 152 mm on them wherever possible, how the metacentric height and stability changed with such a number of high-lying loads, one can only guess.
                    1. +4
                      19 May 2026 13: 34
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      What kind of ocean raiding operations can we talk about, with a cruising range of 4000 miles and a speed of 19 knots?

                      Well, that's not a question for me. It's for MorMin.
                      With a range of 4000 miles and a speed of 19 knots, the "Bogins" can catch up with any armored ship of the late 19th - early 20th centuries.

                      Before you can catch up, you first have to find it.
                      And the "catch up" part is also a question—stationary ships of all kinds were usually of the "out of sight, out of mind" variety, and even the new Japanese cruisers, for example, had a speed of 20 knots according to their specifications—not much more—and a displacement half as much. Whatever you say, but in a Diana-Tsushima duel, I'm betting on Diana.
                      1. 0
                        19 May 2026 14: 33
                        The mere advantage of two main guns in a broadside is uninspiring. The Japanese are a knot faster, meaning they can maintain a favorable distance to prevent the Russians from using their 75mm guns. Their armor is comparable, but the high sides of the "goddesses" make excellent targets. The quality of the Japanese shells is superior, as are the crew training. In the Battle of Korsakov, the Tsushima scored 14 hits, while the Novik scored two or three, of which only one significant hole, near the waterline, forced the Japanese to temporarily break off the engagement. However, the Tsushima's commander had nothing to worry about; he knew the Chitose was nearby and would prevent the Novik from breaking through.
                      2. +4
                        19 May 2026 14: 47
                        Tsushima is much smaller, making it easier to land a critical hit, as the fight with Novik proved. Diana is larger, and doesn't care about any hits to the upper hull. Please learn to look at real-world stats, not just paper ones.
                        Let me repeat my example: the Aurora took more than 30 hits at Tsushima, if my memory serves me right, but it didn't withdraw from the battle, didn't break formation, and retreated to Manila. A similar number of hits at Tsushima would have simply sunk the ship.
                        crew training too.

                        Regarding cruisers - not a fact.
                        In the battle at Korsakov, Tsushima scored 14 hits, Novik scored either 2 or 3

                        To illustrate this point, I suggest you carry a truckload of coal into your house with your hands, then immediately grab a rifle and shoot a crow at 100 meters. wink
                      3. +1
                        19 May 2026 15: 17
                        It's unlikely Novik's gunners were hauling coal and then firing cannons while they were still in the air. Hand tremors had nothing to do with it.
                      4. +4
                        19 May 2026 16: 10
                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        It's unlikely Novik's gunners were hauling coal and then firing cannons while they were still in the air. Hand tremors had nothing to do with it.

                        Well, they definitely didn't shoot while they were in the air, but there is an opinion about loading coal.
                        The cruiser's crew had been busy with very hard work since early morning, loading coal, and even if you count from the moment the coal was transferred to the cruiser, the loading took a quarter to complete. six o'clockIt can also be assumed that the gunners loaded coal along with everyone else. Lieutenant A.P. Shter was an artillery officer, and he was sent ashore to organize the loading of coal; it would be logical to assume that he was with his subordinates.

                        https://topwar.ru/154197-bronepalubnaja-molnija-krejser-ii-ranga-novik-poslednjaja-shvatka.html
                        A tired stoker is no better at breaking through than a tired gunner. M.F. von Schultz didn't have an "extra" crew to load coal, giving rest to those needed in case of battle with the Japanese.

                        This is, of course, just a guess. But it's a logical one.
                      5. +2
                        19 May 2026 17: 17
                        I think I agree with the arguments drinks But, it rather affected the rate of fire.
                      6. +1
                        19 May 2026 15: 41
                        At Tsushima, the Aurora suffered no dangerous holes near the waterline, and the destroyed superstructure and damaged pipes posed no threat to the ship. Polenov's book mentions 18 hits. That's why she left undisturbed. There were successful hits near the waterline, but the odds were different.
                        Specifically regarding the Aurora, it's a fact that the crew was largely made up of mobilized personnel. Incidentally, I haven't seen any information anywhere about how many hits the Aurora scored?
                        As someone with a second-level adult shooting license, I can tell you that hitting a crow from 100 meters with a rifle, even without a coal truck, is no easy task. It's better to shoot with a shotgun—with medium-sized pellets.
                      7. +1
                        19 May 2026 16: 22
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        At Tsushima, the Aurora did not receive any dangerous holes near the waterline, and the destroyed superstructures and damaged pipes did not pose any threat to the ship.

                        Of course. It's a big cruiser.
                        Polenov's book speaks of 18 hits.

                        Thanks for the correction. But it's still too much. A single 120mm was enough for Tsushima against Novik to disengage.
                        By the way, I haven’t seen any information anywhere about how many hits the Aurora achieved?

                        There is no such information.
                      8. 0
                        19 May 2026 17: 24
                        1. Even a large cruiser would have had enough problems if the holes had been somewhere around the waterline, especially since they were also firing at it with 203mm shells. But she was lucky.
                        2. That's exactly it, one bad hit could have radically changed the situation.
                        3. If such information is absent, then it must be understood that there were no significant results. At the very least, Japanese sources say nothing about the ships of the 3rd and 4th battle detachments requiring any serious repairs, much less dock repairs.
                  2. Alf
                    +1
                    19 May 2026 19: 23
                    Quote: Trapper7
                    And the "surplus" 75mm - but for the period of the Russian Yamal-Nenets Autonomous Region, this weapon was considered quite suitable for battles.

                    And that is why, after 2-3 years, they laid down a series of six-thousanders with the number of 75-mm guns reduced to 12 pieces, but increased to 12 6-inch barrels?
                    1. +3
                      20 May 2026 08: 56
                      Quote: Alf
                      And that is why, after 2-3 years, they laid down a series of six-thousanders with the number of 75-mm guns reduced to 12 pieces, but increased to 12 6-inch barrels?

                      Why are you asking me this question now? You're disputing the fact that the 75mm range is up to the RYA. was considered as a weapon suitable for battle between large ships?
                      Or are you trying to point out to me the fallacy of this opinion?
                      So yes, even the admirals of that era began to understand that 152 mm was better than 75 mm)))
                      I'm not defending the concept of using 75mm artillery in squadron combat in general, nor their number on Dianas in particular. I simply wrote to a colleague asking why they slung so many of them in there. feel
                      1. Alf
                        0
                        20 May 2026 18: 35
                        Quote: Trapper7
                        Why are you asking me this question now?

                        Well, okay, I'll ask this question to my colleague Olgovich...
                        Quote: Trapper7
                        Do you dispute the fact that before the Russian Navy, the 75mm was considered a weapon suitable for battles between large ships?

                        And when were the six-thousanders laid down? Not before the Russian Revolution? Even then, it was clear that a bunch of 3-inch guns wouldn't do the trick against 6-inch guns. And the armament was balanced.
              2. -1
                19 May 2026 15: 43
                Quote: Trapper7
                Quote: TermNachTER
                Instead of breaking through to Vladivostok, the Diana dashed in the opposite direction. The Diana even made it all the way to Saigon, 3,5 miles.

                You wrote it all yourself—that's a question for the cruiser's commander, not the cruiser itself. In theory, they could have waited for the 2nd TOE near Madagascar.

                How do you imagine this? Who would supply them with coal and provisions? The Japanese could easily have sent a squadron of light cruisers to destroy them.
                1. +1
                  19 May 2026 15: 54
                  Quote: Panin (Michman)
                  How do you imagine that?

                  Oh, you just don't know the flights of my imagination)
                  Who would supply them with coal and provisions?

                  The French and the Germans)
                  The Japanese could well have sent a squadron of light cruisers to destroy them.

                  And we will go to the north, and we will go to the north (the Baltic) and we will wait it out there, and we will wait it out there.
                  1. Alf
                    0
                    19 May 2026 19: 29
                    Quote: Trapper7
                    and we will go north (Baltic)

                    Are you measuring the distance from Madagascar to Kronstadt in a straight line? Or did they install diesel engines on the Diana?
                    1. +1
                      20 May 2026 08: 23
                      Quote: Alf
                      Are you measuring the distance from Madagascar to Kronstadt in a straight line? Or did they install diesel engines on the Diana?

                      Is she prohibited from accepting coal in neutral ports?
                      1. Alf
                        0
                        20 May 2026 18: 37
                        Quote: Trapper7
                        Quote: Alf
                        Are you measuring the distance from Madagascar to Kronstadt in a straight line? Or did they install diesel engines on the Diana?

                        Is she prohibited from accepting coal in neutral ports?

                        No, but the likelihood of the supposedly neutrals issuing coal is debatable. As the saying goes, "He'll eat it, but who'll give him any?"
            2. +5
              19 May 2026 16: 12
              Quote: TermNachTER
              "Diana" actually made it all the way to Saigon))) 3,5 thousand miles, while Vladivostok was 1000 miles.

              The reason has long been known: the cruising range of ships of that time was calculated based on peacetime economic efficiency. That is, only those boilers needed to ensure that cruising range were kept under steam.
              During wartime, when crossing enemy-controlled waters, it was necessary to keep all boilers steaming in order to evade or escape enemy ships in time. This meant significantly higher coal consumption.
              So it turns out that the same ship's cruising range to the north (where there's an enemy) and to the south (where encounters with the enemy are unlikely) are different. Anisotropic sea, adnakka. smile
              1. 0
                19 May 2026 17: 11
                The boilers could have been kept warm. If Diana had left Arthur with an additional supply of coal, not 800 tons, but say 1000 tons, that would have been enough. The commander had no desire. It was much easier to wait out the war, sitting in the café-concerts of Paris in the Far East.
    3. +8
      19 May 2026 09: 21
      Quote: V.
      While studying at the institute, we were told how knowledge is retained if it is not recalled or used.

      hmm ..
      Quote: V.
      What knowledge could these admirals have to correctly draw up a modern technical specification?

      Do you seriously believe that admirals did not use the knowledge they acquired in the Naval Corps (and additional educational institutions) during their service? belay
      Quote: V.
      Makarov and Krylov were already there then.

      And how did these deserving people differ from others who were no less deserving?
      Not to mention that the same Makarov promoted some very strange, to say the least, ideas
      1. +1
        19 May 2026 09: 43
        I have a friend who is an admiral, a civilian, a classmate from the academy, he commands an entire fleet, he admitted to me that he is a pure official and only demands that instructions be followed and signs documents where necessary.
        1. +5
          19 May 2026 09: 48
          Quote: V.
          I have a friend who is an admiral, a civilian, a classmate from the academy, he commands an entire fleet, he admitted to me that he is a pure bureaucrat

          A civilian admiral commands the fleet? belay
          But in general, it was in order to prevent officers from turning into bureaucrats that the head of the Naval Department, Ivan Alekseevich Shestakov, introduced a “qualification” at one time.
          1. 0
            19 May 2026 09: 54
            The heads of sea and river shipping companies wear admiral's stripes on their sleeves and shoulder straps, as in the Navy. They do not have stars, as in the navy.
            1. +4
              19 May 2026 10: 18
              The head of the shipping company and the captain of the port are officials, not commanders, although they did graduate from a nautical school.
      2. Alf
        +2
        19 May 2026 19: 31
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        Not to mention that the same Makarov promoted some very strange, to say the least, ideas

        "To protect guns, there is no need to cover them with armor; it is enough to simply scatter them along the entire length of the ship." I quote from memory.
        1. +2
          19 May 2026 19: 42
          Quote: Alf
          To protect the guns, there is no need to cover them with armor; it is enough to simply scatter them along the entire length of the ship." I quote from memory.

          Back then, and even now, there were plenty of strange ideas. Unfortunately, they later have to be corrected, and not always without losses.
    4. +3
      19 May 2026 13: 52
      While studying at the institute, we were told how knowledge is retained.

      Higher education provides basic knowledge, skills, and abilities. Individuals then develop their competencies independently. Moreover, it's not uncommon for this to include their education through dedicated effort.
      Thanks to Andrey for the article, I almost missed it!
      I am glad to read the comments of Vyacheslav Olegovich, how is your health?
      Have a nice day and good mood everyone!!!
  2. +1
    19 May 2026 07: 03
    The prototype of the "Bayan", laid down in 1897.
    And what did the French themselves write at the same time about this “masterpiece”:
    1. +1
      19 May 2026 07: 08
      Quote: Jura 27
      And what did the French themselves write at the same time about this “masterpiece”:

      Considering that the Dupleix had a whopping 100mm armor belt and only 8 x 164mm guns, this assessment is certainly fair. But what does the Bayan have to do with it?
      1. +1
        19 May 2026 07: 45
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: Jura 27
        And what did the French themselves write at the same time about this “masterpiece”:

        Considering that the Dupleix had a whopping 100mm armor belt and only 8 x 164mm guns, this assessment is certainly fair. But what does the Bayan have to do with it?

        And given that for a battle with battleships, 100mm, 150mm (200-170mm is a narrow strip of a fairly narrow armor belt) is very little, and 2-8" + 4-6", 6-164mm per side is also frankly not enough.
        And you can launch armored decks with 100mm side armor, as long as the stern is also protected. Just reduce the cost and displacement so you don't end up with a cruiser—"not a good fit for the Red Army."
        1. +1
          19 May 2026 08: 03
          Quote: Jura 27
          And given that for fighting battleships, 100mm or 150mm (200-170mm is a narrow strip, a fairly narrow armor belt) is very little

          Bayan was never a cruiser designed for battleship combat, but its "narrow strip" offered every chance of protecting the propulsion plant should such a battle occur. In fact, a 1,8-meter belt, compared to Mikasa's 2,36 meters, provided less protection against diving shells.
          Quote: Jura 27
          And you can drive armored decks from a 100mm side,

          It's possible, but God forbid you get hit by 12-inch shells, even for a short time, with that kind of armor. And any cruiser with 8-inch armor is a terrible threat, since 100 mm isn't exactly a threat to cement. The Bayan, however, doesn't seem to care.
          In any case, you've avoided the answer. First, you wrote that Bayan was almost Dupleix, now you're writing, "Yeah, he's not Dupleix, so what?"
          1. +3
            19 May 2026 08: 27
            Bayan was never a cruiser for fighting battleships.

            That's what I'm saying - 200mm is not needed.
            1. +4
              19 May 2026 09: 44
              Quote: Jura 27
              That's what I'm saying - 200mm is not needed.

              Honestly, I'm having similar thoughts. 7 or even 6 inches would be more than enough.
              1. +1
                19 May 2026 10: 21
                If it's a reconnaissance vessel attached to a squadron, then the GBP and 6 inches are plenty. The remaining weight could have been spent on increasing speed. And the Belleville boilers are a tough case.
              2. +1
                19 May 2026 10: 34
                7 or even 6 inches would be more than enough

                The Bayan has the same)) at the waterline it's ~160. But the 60mm upper belt entering the water (lower edge) at a list of several degrees (7-8?) is not so good... Fortunately, the 8-10-12" Japanese high-explosive shells of that time wouldn't penetrate it (tubes)
              3. +1
                19 May 2026 11: 31
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                7 or even 6 inches would be more than enough.

                IMHO - in those conditions 127 mm would have been enough)
          2. +1
            19 May 2026 08: 28
            and any cruiser with 8-inch is a terrible threat, since 100 mm is not particularly easy to cement.

            Even in Russia, 4" was cemented quite well.
          3. 0
            19 May 2026 08: 32
            In any case, you've avoided the answer. First, you wrote that Bayan was almost Dupleix, now you're writing, "Yeah, he's not Dupleix, so what?"

            It's begun—my, yours, don't understand. I'll explain it again, simply: the minor differences between Bayan and Dupleix weren't worth the extra money spent on them, because they didn't lead to a qualitative leap.
          4. 0
            19 May 2026 10: 20
            A slightly off-topic question: I haven't come across anything about the reasons for the rejection of the Poltava/Petropavlovsk project (they later almost returned to Pavlo 1). Okay, they wanted "battleship-cruisers" whose design involved people who couldn't tell their palms from their fingers (referring to the differences in approaches to the Renown and Peresvet), but they could have returned to their roots when designing the future Tsarevich and Retvizan.
            1. 0
              19 May 2026 11: 41
              Quote: uber
              A slightly off-topic question: I haven't come across anything about the reasons for the rejection of the Poltava/Petropavlovsk project (they later almost returned to Pavlo 1). Okay, they wanted "battleship-cruisers" whose design involved people who couldn't tell their palms from their fingers (referring to the differences in approaches to the Renown and Peresvet), but they could have returned to their roots when designing the future Tsarevich and Retvizan.

              I am providing a link to the first article in the series.
              https://topwar.ru/274104-o-korablestroitelnyh-programmah-rossijskoj-imperii-konca-19-go-veka-vozniknovenie-japonskoj-ugrozy.html
              1. +1
                19 May 2026 16: 22
                Thank you, but I missed it and the question was for the author.
      2. +1
        19 May 2026 10: 44
        Good afternoon.
        If we remember that Dupleix had a 100 mm armor belt and only 8 x 164 mm guns, then such a review is, of course, fair.

        Dear Andrey, this assessment requires clarification: the Dupleix-class armored cruisers were designed for "distant stations." It was considered unlikely that they would have to engage battleships. The armor they carried was sufficient to withstand high-explosive shells from armored cruisers. The only threat they posed was their 234mm guns. However, given the number of these guns mounted on British armored cruisers, the likelihood of a hit was considered low.
        Based on some indirect evidence, I can assume that the thickness was 60 mm—the armor plates of the French "Potu" tank were exactly that thick. I'll cite two facts to support this hypothesis.

        Firstly, the initial meeting formulated a requirement that the future cruiser's side be armored all the way to the upper deck. Recall that the Dupuy-de-Lôme, which met this requirement but carried 100mm of protection, was considered "overwhelmed by armor at the expense of speed and range." In this light, the Potou's armor belt, reduced to 60mm, would have seemed quite adequate.

        The installation of 60+10 mm of armor on ship hulls and casemates was adopted after experimental firings to determine the thickness of shields for openly mounted guns in 1890. The shields withstood medium-caliber high-explosive shells well, although they did produce a significant amount of fragments.
        1. +2
          20 May 2026 06: 31
          Good morning, dear Igor!
          Quote: 27091965i
          The shields withstood a medium-caliber high-explosive shell well, although there were a lot of fragments.

          I'd be extremely grateful for any details. Did they fire steel shells or Orthodox cast iron? The caliber was probably 160 mm? Melinite didn't exist back then, I think. Was gunpowder used as the explosive? Was a 60 mm shield sufficient?
          1. +2
            20 May 2026 10: 47
            Good morning.
            Dear Andrey, I'll try to put all these shootings together now and write about them. It's a big volume, and there were also canvas and rope bundles involved.
            1. +1
              20 May 2026 11: 25
              Dear Igor, if it takes you a long time to do this, then it’s not worth it. A general outline would be enough for me.
              1. +3
                20 May 2026 13: 40
                In general, don’t judge the result too harshly;
                " For testing, “hard” steel was used, with sheet thicknesses ranging from 10 to 78 mm.
                The canvas and bundles of ropes were tested for the activation of small-caliber gun fuses and the impact of shrapnel.
                Shield, box and semi-oval (English) designs were used.
                The range for protecting small-caliber artillery is a hit from a distance of 500 meters, for medium-caliber artillery - a hit from a cast-iron shell from a distance of 2500 meters.
                Armor up to 20 mm thick can be penetrated by a small-caliber steel shell and causes a cast-iron shell to explode. The thickness of sheet metal required to protect against rapid-fire cannon shells at a range of 500 meters would require the use of mantlets, which, if attached to the guns, would be too heavy. This complicates horizontal aiming; such protection is permitted for installation on river gunboats and small coastal defense vessels.

                78 mm of "hard steel" armor can be penetrated by steel shells from a 65 mm gun at a range of 500 meters. Cast iron shells from a 138,6 mm gun are impenetrable, with an estimated range of 2500 meters. Box-shaped armor provides the best protection for the crew from shrapnel.
                "Hard steel" structures will not provide protection for guns of calibers 100 mm, 138,6 mm, and 164,7 mm. Armor thicknesses of at least 60 mm will be used for protection; during firing tests at a range of 2500 meters, this armor was not penetrated by a steel shell from a 164,7 mm gun when hitting at an angle greater than 10 degrees. A cast iron shell would shatter when hitting at such an angle.
                When placing medium-caliber guns in separate rooms (casemates), the hull wall must be protected with armor of at least 60 mm. This is because, if the side is penetrated and a shell explodes inside the casemate, the gun shield creates additional favorable conditions for fragmentation and injuring the crew.
                When installing shields, it is necessary to recalculate the strength of the weapon structure and shield mounts.
                ."
                On the scan, you can see what happened to the projectile;
              2. +1
                20 May 2026 14: 26
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Dear Igor, if it takes you a long time to do this, then it’s not worth it. A general outline would be enough for me.

                Dear Andrey, I'd be happy to give you a "general outline," but the first two tests alone are over 70 pages long. So, it's just "quotes." laughing
                1. +2
                  21 May 2026 15: 09
                  Thank you very much, dear Igor!
                  Wow:))))) But overall, it's clear - 60 mm was sufficient protection against 164 mm high-explosive shells. But... It's from 1893, so how could they have fired it in 1890?
                  1. +2
                    21 May 2026 15: 54
                    Good afternoon.
                    But overall, it's clear—60 mm was sufficient protection against 164 mm high-explosive shells. But... It's from 1893, so how could they have fired it in 1890?

                    Dear Andrey, you're a bit of a surprise. In 1893, the French had already created, so to speak, a medium-caliber "transformer" with a 164.7 mm caliber, a 100-caliber barrel, and a projectile weight of 90 kg.
                    They achieved a projectile velocity of, if I'm not mistaken, 860 m/s. This gun could accommodate an increased chamber size and barrels of varying lengths. However, the gun proved too bulky and never went into production. The 164,7 mm caliber gun continued to exist until 1890.
                    1. +2
                      21 May 2026 16: 22
                      Dear Igor, it's all quite simple: unfortunately, the French navy has never held much interest for me, and my knowledge of it is very incomplete and fragmented. So, alas, I'm capable of making any mistake here.
                  2. +2
                    21 May 2026 16: 08
                    I'll add, for clarity, what kind of shells were used for this gun at that time: Long-range projectile, 45 kilograms; Rupture projectile, 45 kilograms; 45-kilogram projectile; Cylindrical projectile, 45 kilograms. This applies to trials in 1890.
                    1. 0
                      22 May 2026 11: 30
                      Thank you very much! Is there any information on the projectile's initial velocity or the velocity on the plate?
                      1. +1
                        22 May 2026 15: 44
                        Good afternoon.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Is there any information about the initial velocity of the projectile, or the speed on the plate?

                        Dear Andrey, as they say, what is "closer" is the 138,6 mm gun.
                        " The steel shell of Saint-Etienne penetrates;

                        1. With a normal shot, a steel plate 16 cm thick, a wooden "mattress" 84 cm thick, with an impact speed of 562 meters.

                        2. with a normal shot, an iron plate 20 cm thick, a wooden "mattress" 84 cm thick, with an impact speed of 542 meters.

                        3. at an angle of 25°, with the normal to the plate, a steel plate 12 cm thick, a wooden "mattress" 84 cm long, with an impact speed of 536 meters
                        . "

                        The Saint-Etienne steel projectile is a steel projectile that was hardened by heating to 100 degrees and cooling in cold water.
                        It's important to note that Type B smokeless powders had not yet been developed. The primary focus at the time was on developing steel projectiles for large-caliber guns, as they were considered the primary means for penetrating armor.
      3. -1
        19 May 2026 23: 42
        Due to overloading, the 2,1-meter-tall armor belt of the cruiser Esmeralda rose only 0,6 meters above the waterline, and at full displacement, it was completely submerged. This led the Royal Navy's chief builder, William White, to call the armor belt of the cruiser built for Chile "fictitious."

        What can be said about the main armor belt of the Bayan, which had a height of only 1,8 meters and, with normal displacement, its upper edge also rose above the water by 0,6 meters?

        Unless I write that William Henry White could probably call it doubly fictitious, both in height and... in thickness. The armor plates of the main belt had a very interesting "wedge" cross-section (I can't even name where else the armor plate thickness began to decrease literally from its upper edge): 200 mm or less was only at the very top of the plate, 150 mm in the middle, and steadily increasing to 100 mm at the bottom. Reference books describe it as an impressive 200 mm armor belt. But in reality, it's a fiction:
        1. +1
          22 May 2026 10: 48
          By the way, I agree - in this case it is fair to cite the average arithmetic thickness of the power supply according to the KVL - this is 150 mm Harvey!
    2. +1
      19 May 2026 09: 59
      And what the French themselves wrote...

      If you want it to be readable, make it larger.
      What's that cruiser in the picture? It's obviously not a Dupleix, despite the captions; it has 4x2 164mm turrets (here's its model). This one is just like the Montcalm, but the middle two 164mm casemates are pushed together into one...
      1. +1
        19 May 2026 14: 24
        What kind of cruiser is in the picture?

        Probably a variant of the Dupleix-class cruiser design, from which Bayan was "ripped off," replacing three engines with two, installing Russian armament, and reducing the standard coal reserves to strengthen the armor.
        1. +1
          19 May 2026 19: 24
          Probably a variant of the Dupleix-class cruiser project...

          It's unlikely, the difference is too big - 2 single-gun turrets instead of 4x2, casemates... But with Montcalm there is no difference, only the double casemates in the middle later became single (and Bayan's remained))
          The compilers of this book made a mistake with the picture.

          P.S. Yours is also possible, since Dupleix is ​​a smaller version of the Montcalm. The single-gun 164mm turret later became two-gun, and instead of casemates in the center, there were two more turrets.
      2. +2
        19 May 2026 14: 42
        If you want it to be readable, make it larger.

        I can see it just fine.
        1. +2
          19 May 2026 18: 46
          Quote: Jura 27
          I can see it just fine.

          It's just that for some reason the illustrations aren't clickable. request
          1. +1
            20 May 2026 16: 56
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            Quote: Jura 27
            I can see it just fine.

            It's just that for some reason the illustrations aren't clickable. request

            I couldn't find an interface to enlarge the image. But for me, it's perfectly readable.
            1. 0
              20 May 2026 18: 49
              I couldn't find an interface to enlarge the image.

              I can only copy and paste this web format into Paint. Then I can save it in other formats, but unfortunately, it doesn't increase the number of pixels.
              I read it. It's really an early version, with 10 (!) 164mm guns. The difference with the Montcalm is only 164mm instead of 194mm in the turrets. The coal capacity is also amused: 1200t is normal! 2080t is full.
              1. 0
                22 May 2026 03: 46
                The stated coal reserves are amazing: 1200 tons is normal! And 2080 tons is full.

                This is a cheaper raider than Montcalm, for service at distant stations, in the niche of our goddesses.
                1. 0
                  22 May 2026 14: 42
                  Kleber...for service at distant stations, in the niche of our goddesses

                  Do you seriously believe that a 7,5-kilogram cruiser (armored) could hold 2080 tons of coal? That's just a figure, akin to a range of 13,000 miles!
                  Also, the normal reserve of 1200t is not very "normal" (16% of the VI), it is larger (as is the full value)) than the 12kt Rossiya and 13kt Peresvet (which are raiders), the size of the pits of which you know. About "niche of our goddesses" it's not even a question, their full stock is <1070t. So 1200t looks like full Reserve (Bayan's full capacity is 1020t, then 1180t, Montcalm's full capacity is 1575t). And 2080... maybe someone has calculated the gross register capacity))
                  1. -1
                    22 May 2026 15: 47
                    Do you seriously believe that a 7,5 kiloton cruiser (armored) could hold 2080 tons of coal?

                    I don't know, I need to look at the plans of the hold and decks, maybe this is for a cruiser with Nikloss boilers.
                    1200 tons of standard coal reserves - this is a raider, with little armor and weak weapons.
  3. +6
    19 May 2026 07: 09
    Strong, protected, fast, long-range, high-quality, inexpensive...
    In fact, it can again be predicted that the cruiser will not work out.
    1. +1
      19 May 2026 07: 47
      Strong, protected, fast, long-range, high-quality, inexpensive...

      Well, here, everything is much sadder: out of six points, only one worked out.
    2. +1
      19 May 2026 10: 25
      Well, if the Naval Ministry didn't even know what it wanted initially, then it couldn't have been any other way. I've written more than once that "across the street," in Italy, the "Garibaldi" ships were being built at the same time—completely suited to the requirements of the Far Eastern theater of operations and the war with Japan. And then, this mistake was repeated threefold.
      1. +4
        19 May 2026 16: 23
        Quote: TermNachTER
        And then, this mistake was repeated three times over)))

        So the second trio of Bayanych-class cruisers was laid down in a "Well, something has to be done!" situation. The navy needed cruisers, and there was no time to wait for new projects, especially since the funds had been allocated. So, they ordered from the available stock. And of the Brkr-KR projects, only the Bayan-class cruiser was available.
        The most interesting thing is that the issue of upgrading the Bayanychi has been raised repeatedly, starting from the time of their construction. But each time, there wasn't enough money—the navy had more pressing expenses. Or perhaps the Ministry of Defense was reluctant to go to the Duma for emergency funding, as that would have raised the question: "Why should ships that haven't yet been built/have just been delivered to the navy be upgraded? Why did you order ships that were initially weak?"
        1. 0
          19 May 2026 17: 29
          I've said more than once that instead of three "bayans," you could have ordered two "pizas." The cost is roughly the same, but a "piza" is practically a "Rurik II." When ordering, specify that you want to replace the British 190mm with Russian 203mm.
        2. 0
          20 May 2026 00: 08
          Quote: Alexey RA
          So the second trio of Bayanych-class cruisers was laid down in a "Well, something has to be done!" situation. The navy needed cruisers, and there was no time to wait for new projects, especially since the funds had been allocated. So, they ordered from the available stock. And of the Brkr-KR projects, only the Bayan-class cruiser was available.

          After all, the first "Bayan" was ordered "without regaining consciousness."

          "Having confirmed the authenticity of the information about the Esmeralda, the MTC passed by information (or did not want to look for it) about another cruiser, also Chilean and built in England at the same plant, the O'Higgins. It was laid down at the shipyard in Elswick on April 6, 1896 and launched in 1897, and information about its design characteristics, apparently, could not be a secret. It represented (with a displacement of 8500 tons) a development of the Esmeralda type, in which, due to a reduction in the number of 6 inch guns from 16 to 10, the number of 8 inch caliber guns was doubled (to four), and the speed was reduced from 23 knots to 21,25 knots. This is a project (with the placement of 8 inch guns in pairs in two turrets and with a slight increase in width (the displacement increased to 9750 t) was immediately accepted by Japan as a prototype when it ordered its first two armored cruisers, the Asama and the Tokiwa, from the same Elswick plant in England.

          Launched in March and July 1898, these ships were no secret to I.K. Grigorovich. It was with them, as everyone had long understood, that the Russian armored cruiser designed in 1897 was destined to engage. Nevertheless, neither the O'Higgins nor the Asama attracted any attention in Russia.

          Equally striking was the lack of attention paid to the already well-known Italian-Argentine series of Garibaldi-class cruisers, which had been built at the Ansaldo and Orlando shipyards in Italy at a rate of one per year since 1895, almost at a magical rate. Their type (with a displacement almost identical to that of the Esmeralda and Pallada) readily demonstrated the harmonious characteristics that so preoccupied the MTC. Four cruisers of this class, the Garibaldi (1895), San Martin (1896), Pierado (1897), and General Belgrano (1897), were purchased by Argentina from the Italian government, and two more, the Rivodavia (1903) and Moreno (1902), were purchased by Japan in 1903 after Russia refused to purchase them. They became the Nisshin and Kassuga that successfully harassed the Russian fleet at Port Arthur for a long time (R.M. Melnikov. The Cruiser Varyag. Leningrad, 1983, pp. 160–161).

          The fate of these ships and the intricacies of the transactions that led to their actual and proposed purchases constitute perhaps the most fascinating and instructive chapter in the history of shipbuilding at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries. These ships came to the fore with the outbreak of war with Japan, when, on the very first day, the Asama, with unspeakable ease, dispatched the Russian cruiser Varyag, built in 1899, near Chemulpo. And the O'Higgins, along with the Pueradon and others, became the object of the Russian government's futile desires. A. M. Abaza's secret acquisition of these "exotic cruisers," soon exposed to the world, is another unrevealed chapter in Russian history. Such neglect of first-class armored cruisers must be attributed to an unusually large confluence of unfavorable circumstances.

          These include, in particular, the persistence of the cruiser warfare concept, still prevalent from earlier times, the "eternal economy" that forced ships to reduce their displacement, a misunderstanding of the new role of armored cruisers in their interactions in battle with ironclads, and, finally, reliance on 6-inch guns, which were then considered (based on the experience of the Sino-Japanese War) to be the most effective (due to their rate of fire). The lack of focused, creative work in ship design and the underestimation of the destructive power of modern high-explosive shells (although even A. M. Abaza warned against this) allowed the Russian Navy, despite the construction of Asama-class armored turret cruisers for Japan, to continue building armored deck cruisers of the Pallada class with open, and even unshielded, deck mounts for 6-inch guns.
          The notion that every new Russian ship must be stronger than its counterpart in the potential enemy's forces was far from decisive. Even the most authoritative expert in naval tactics, N.L. Klado, lacked a clear justification for the value of armored cruisers as ships capable of outflanking or enveloping a ship in battle. Even in his 1904 work, "Modern Naval Warfare" (St. Petersburg, 1905, p. 94), he merely emphasized the usefulness of side armor on armored cruisers and belatedly reminded them that armored cruisers were "a luxury for a squadron" (p. 96).

          Confusion over the role and place of cruisers was caused by the then-fashionable concept of the decisive role of 6-inch rapid-fire artillery in combat and the futility of armor. This concept was championed by the authoritative specialist Lieutenant General P.F. Pestich, who delivered a report on this topic at the General Staff Academy on March 18, 1892 ("The Modern Fleet and Its Questions," St. Petersburg, 1892). These same views were supported from 1894 onward by Admiral S.O. Makarov, who persistently advocated ("Morskoy Sbornik," 1894, No. 6, "Analysis of the Elements Constituting the Combat Strength of Ships") his design for an "armorless" (i.e., without side armor – PM) combat vessel. He considered such a ship, which had a displacement of 3000 tons, a speed of 20 knots and was armed with two 8-inch and four 6-inch guns, to be universal for squadron combat."


          Rafael Mikhailovich Melnikov, "The Armored Cruiser Bayan (1897–1904)"
          1. +2
            20 May 2026 11: 11
            Quote: AlexanderA
            And the O'Higgins, along with the Pueradon and others, became the object of the Russian government's fruitless desires. A.M. Abaza's secret operation to acquire these "exotic cruisers," soon exposed to the world, is another unexplored chapter of Russian history.

            There was a lengthy article in Gangut about "exotic cruisers." The problem was that the operation to purchase the heavy cruisers should have been conducted jointly from the outset by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Ministry of the Navy, under a single leadership. But in reality, everyone was initially pulling the blanket over themselves, and then the Ministry of the Navy decided to dispense with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs altogether. And Abaza was appointed too late.
            According to the historical commission at MGSH, the main reason for the failure of negotiations on the acquisition of "exotic cruisers" was the inability to obtain a neutral flag. However, in the light of the above facts, this point of view should be recognized as incorrect. The failure of the negotiations was influenced by a complex set of reasons in which the flag problem is not the most important. The chances of success of the operation were greatest at the beginning of the Russo-Japanese War, when the military and international authority of the Russian Empire was not yet shaken by major defeats. Then, few doubted the victory of Russia, and the “right of the strong” in these conditions could outweigh international law. This is confirmed by successful transactions for the acquisition of auxiliary cruisers, military transports, submarines and destroyers in Germany, the USA and England. However, the course of hostilities, the need to bear responsibility for violating international law, the adventurous actions of dubious intermediaries, the apparent inconsistency in the actions of private commercial and state structures involved in the negotiations, their interference in the internal affairs of a number of states, initially complicated the transaction and then completely made it its implementation is extremely problematic. Moreover, it was obvious that the military-strategic success of the operation was largely “compensated” by inevitable international complications, which was well understood by Russian diplomats who took a very cautious position.

            The spirit of adventurism introduced by the mediators to the leadership of the Ministry of the Sea and surrounding the emperor led to the fact that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in most cases was actually suspended from the operation, although it was with his participation that Russia achieved the greatest success in the negotiation process (the most striking example is negotiations Nelidova and Delkasse). Just as on the eve of the Russo-Japanese War, the Russian diplomatic department was not able to fully appreciate the exclusive political role of the Russian Navy in the Far East, so during the war years the Naval Ministry “paid back” with the same, failing to recognize the need for close contacts with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in implementing secret operations of an international character. This mutual blindness of military sailors and diplomats cost Russia dearly, and since some friction between the radically-minded military leadership and a cautious diplomatic corps has been observed up to the present, the story with the "exotic cruisers" may be another reminder that the full protection of foreign policy interests states can provide only coordinated actions of the military and diplomatic departments.

            Interdepartmental discord had a profoundly negative impact on the fate of the planned operation. In the absence of a "unified government," fundamental differences of opinion arose among the leaders of the Naval Ministry, the Ministry of Finance, and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The prolonged absence of unified leadership of the operation also contributed to its failure. Nicholas II, who attempted to personally coordinate efforts to acquire the cruisers, wavered in the conflict of departmental interests, often making contradictory decisions. When A. M. Abaza was finally appointed sole leader of the operation, the moment had already passed, and he himself was clearly unsuited to the status of the mission entrusted to him. Thus, the general political crisis in the country, which ultimately led to the revolution of 1905-1907, seriously impacted the feasibility of this specific military-diplomatic action.
            © S. A. Gladkikh. "Exotic Cruisers". Gangut, No. 36-37.
  4. +2
    19 May 2026 10: 54
    Considering that the cruiser was intended to be built for the needs of the Far East, it's completely incomprehensible that the design of Japanese cruisers, already under construction at that time, against which the "squadron reconnaissance" was intended to eventually engage, was not considered. In other words, the naval attachés clearly weren't fulfilling their duties—collecting and delivering information on everything being built at shipyards for any fleet. Hence the confusion and hesitation in the design selection process.
    1. +1
      19 May 2026 11: 46
      Quote: Evgeny Lyubchinov
      It is absolutely incomprehensible that the projects of Japanese cruisers, which were already under construction at that time, against which the "squadron reconnaissance aircraft" was supposed to fight in the future, were not considered.

      Our battleships, not "squadron scouts," were supposed to engage the Japanese armored cruisers. That's assuming we're talking about a real battle, not a brief skirmish. Bayan was more than sufficient for a small skirmish.
      1. 0
        19 May 2026 13: 03
        "For a small skirmish," what ships would the Bayan have been enough against? One of the "aces"? Excuse me, but you yourself came up with the idea that Russian battleships were supposed to fight Japanese armored cruisers? But our admirals always wanted parity in battleships, or at least a couple more.
        To combat its peers, the Bayan had only a slight advantage in armor, an equally slight advantage in speed, and a broadside firepower that was almost half that of its predecessor. As a result, the cruiser was capable of dispersing armored ships (and even then, only one-on-one) and destroyers, but was overkill for these purposes.
        With respect!
        1. +6
          19 May 2026 13: 24
          Quote: Evgeny Lyubchinov
          "For a small skirmish," with which ships was the "Bayan" sufficient? With one of the "aces"?

          Why not? "Bayan" can't do anything to "Asama," of course, but she can't do anything to him either...
          Quote: Evgeny Lyubchinov
          Excuse me, but did you come up with the idea that Russian battleships were supposed to fight Japanese armored cruisers?

          It's a well-known fact that the "Asamoids" aren't ordinary armored cruisers, but rather "battleships for the poor." And since their purpose is to fight in a line, their opponents are precisely battleships. That they, along with the Garibaldians, successfully survived the Russian Nuclear War isn't so much a merit of their designs as a flaw on our part.
          Quote: Evgeny Lyubchinov
          To fight against their own kind, "Bayan"

          Have you heard the expression "tanks don't fight tanks"? The Bayan is no different. It's a reconnaissance vessel attached to a squadron. If necessary, it can withstand brief fire from battleships and disperse the Elsviks.
          Quote: Evgeny Lyubchinov
          but excessive for these purposes.

          Nope. Just right!
          1. 0
            19 May 2026 14: 28
            Why not? "Bayan" can't do anything to "Asama," of course, but she can't do anything to him either...

            That's probably why he rushed, as if scalded, from the place where the "Terrible" died, as soon as he saw the asama.
            1. +6
              19 May 2026 16: 02
              Quote: Jura 27
              That's probably why he rushed, as if scalded, from the place where the "Terrible" died, as soon as he saw the asama.

              What an interesting alternate universe you have :)))) Actually, upon seeing two Asamoids and four dogs, Bayan began rescuing the survivors from the Strashny and only then retreated. Of course, because the project was bad, and not because Bayan was one against six. laughing
              1. 0
                20 May 2026 16: 52
                What is your interesting alternative universe?

                The Altverse belongs to the one who wrote: ""Bayan" of course can't do anything to "Asama", but she can't do anything to him either."
                That is, by abandoning people in the water, Bayan was truly afraid of those who, supposedly, could do nothing to him.
                Well done, commander, the main thing is that you didn't forget the boats, and the sailors left in the very cold water are just collateral damage.
                1. +1
                  20 May 2026 17: 05
                  Yura, you wrote something stupid, so at least don't make it worse :))))
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  The Altverse belongs to the one who wrote: ""Bayan" of course can't do anything to "Asama", but she can't do anything to him either."

                  This statement doesn't mean that Bayan or Asama can expose themselves to the concentrated fire of six cruisers and get away with it. And you understand that perfectly well.
                  1. 0
                    20 May 2026 17: 13
                    It does not follow from this statement that Bayan or Asama could be exposed to concentrated fire from 6 cruisers.

                    Are you sure about the concentrated fire of all six? Were they, by any chance, following in their wake?
                    And what difference does it make whether it’s one asama or two, if both can’t do anything to the bayan.
                    1. 0
                      20 May 2026 18: 21
                      Quote: Jura 27
                      And what difference does it make whether it’s one asama or two, if both can’t do anything to the bayan.

                      I can only repeat
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Yura, you wrote something stupid, so at least don't make it worse :))))

                      However, if you would like to have the last word, please write something, I will not answer:)))
                      1. 0
                        22 May 2026 03: 38
                        write something

                        As expected, three Japanese BOs followed in the wake, with the Asams at the rear, after four BPKs. Fire opened from 8000 meters (approximately 11000 meters to the rearmost Asam), which explains the lack of hits.
                        If Bayan had had normal armor, he could have safely stayed for 5-7 minutes and, having abandoned the boats (but picked up the people), left.
                        Viren knew very well that the Asams could hurt him as he retreated, given his unarmored stern (unlike the Starmos), so he took off without picking up all the people floating from the "Terrible."
          2. 0
            20 May 2026 00: 36
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            Why not? "Bayan" can't do anything to "Asama," of course, but she can't do anything to him either...

            You are aware that the Bayan did not have an armor belt in the stern, that the main armor belt of the Bayan was only 1,8 meters high and that its 200 mm were fictitious, because in the center of the plate there was already ~150 mm?

            What the Japanese armored cruisers did to the Rurik, Rossiya, and Gromoboi is well known. It seems the Bayan was deliberately armored to suffer the same fate as the Rurik.
            Have you heard the expression "tanks don't fight tanks"?

            And then, "suddenly," it became clear that "a tank is the best anti-tank weapon." And all those who had been saying "tanks don't fight tanks" suddenly turned out to be incompetent reactionaries.

            Exactly the same thing happened with armored cruisers at the end of the 19th century.

            The Brooklyn's pursuit of the Vizcaya and Cristobal Colon showed that armored cruisers were fighting each other, and fighting very aggressively.
            1. +3
              20 May 2026 16: 23
              Quote: AlexanderA
              What the Japanese armored cruisers did to the Rurik, Rossiya, and Gromoboi is well known.

              Absolutely.
              The Rurik sank, losing control. But no one is immune to a golden shot. Besides, when it was built, they didn't know how to make a carapace. Which is why it all happened.
              But left with four against two, the Japanese achieved nothing. feel
              Brooklyn's pursuit of Vizcaya and Cristobal Colon

              The Spaniards in that battle abandoned their ships on the shore after being hit several times by 57mm shells...
              1. -1
                21 May 2026 13: 26
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                Absolutely right. The Rurik sank, losing control of its own power.

                The Rurik was beyond saving when Lieutenant K. P. Ivanov, the cruiser's commander at the time, ordered the seacocks opened and the boilers vented. Surrounded by enemy ships, the cruiser, out of control and unable to fire back, slowly sank stern first.
                But no one is immune from the golden shot.

                The presence of an armor belt at the stern and slopes of the armored deck behind the belt armor provides a greater guarantee against a "golden shot" than the absence of such.
                Moreover, when it was built, they didn’t know how to make a carapace.

                The Rurik had a carapace armored deck at the ends. The Bayan had no armored belt at the stern and no carapace armored deck anywhere. Apparently, after studying the French design, the respected people at the wise MTC decided, "Fine. This will do."
                Why the hell did all this happen?

                The following happened:

                https://militera.lib.ru/tw/melnikov1/08.html

                The turn at 6:00 a.m., which resulted in the detachment breaking through behind the Japanese squadron's formation to escape north along the Korean coast, proved fatal for the Rurik. Already at the beginning of the turn, which was carried out "away from the enemy"—stern toward him (a safer approach—"toward the enemy"—could have, apparently, prematurely revealed the admiral's intentions to the Japanese), several large-caliber shells pierced the Rurik's port side at the stern. Water, pouring through two underwater holes, quickly flooded the aft food store and, before the crew could arrive, began to flow through the ventilation pipes into the steering gear compartment and the steering gear compartment.

                Bilge engineer Lieutenant A.K. Ton immediately deployed the bailers, and the water crew began patching the holes. Lacking pumping equipment, the oil cellar and paint room were already filled with water, which had entered through the holes in the port side. Another shell, exploding in the provisions cellar, smashed the steering gear attached to its deck and destroyed the bulkhead separating the cellar from the steering gear room.

                While the initial holes in the steering gear compartment were being repaired under the supervision of Senior Boatswain Alexander Kryuk, new holes were made on the starboard side: at the waterline in the rudder, and below the waterline in the steering gear compartment, which quickly began to fill with water. Water also appeared in the steering gear compartment. Attempts to apply a patch failed, as the keel chains were already all broken, and it was impossible to install new ones while the cruiser was underway. The bailers were unable to take in water due to damaged main pipes. Attempts to pump out the water manually were also unsuccessful. The steering gear stopped, rendering the cruiser unable to be steered using the steam-powered steering wheel.

                Already neck-deep in water, Boatswain Alexander Kryuk, Bilge Engineer A.K. Ton, several helmsmen, and Boatswain Dmitry Petrov, who had arrived just in time, attempted to connect the rudder to the manual steering wheel, but to no avail—the water was rising steadily. Boatswain Kryuk's efforts, diving deeper into the flooded compartment, also proved unsuccessful. Since the doors were already sealed, the men were forced to exit through the emergency exit shaft, reaching it by swimming. After the compartment flooded, Engineer 2nd Class Vasily Nikonov, who had been manning the steering gear, switched to handling ammunition in the stern.

                Due to the flooding of the helmsman's compartment, the order was given to set the rudder straight, remove the men working to seal the breaches, and seal the helmsman's compartment. This prevented flooding of the nearby aft magazines, whose supply corridors were already receiving water from the helmsman's compartment. Thanks to this, the supply was virtually uninterrupted, and the rate of fire of the stern guns, which were at that very moment fending off the entire Japanese squadron, was not disrupted.

                In the conning tower, having received the message that the rudder was set straight, they began to steer the ship using the engines. For some time, the cruiser maintained its line well, following the Gromoboi, but suddenly, at full speed, it unexpectedly yawed to the right, breaking away from the line towards the Japanese [195] squadron. Only by working the left engine at full astern and the right engine forward could the ship be brought back onto a straight course; but as soon as the left engine was given a slightly higher speed, increasing its snail's pace, the ship immediately rolled to the right. The cruiser's speed on a straight course was now no more than 3-4 knots, and the ship immediately fell behind the Rossiya and Gromoboi, which were moving at full speed. One of the shells that hit the stern brought misfortune to the Rurik. Having exploded in the already completely flooded tiller compartment, it apparently knocked down the steering rods with the rocker arms, and the rudder was jammed in the starboard position{112}."

                But left with four against two, the Japanese achieved nothing.

                Lucky. On the other hand, if the Japanese had sunk all three armored cruisers in that battle, perhaps Tsushima would never have happened.
                The Spaniards in that battle abandoned their ships on the shore after being hit several times by 57mm shells...

                "After this doesn't mean because of this." In that battle, not a single Spanish cruiser escaped with mere hits from small-caliber shells. On the other hand, there were only two hits from main battery shells from the battleships, both on the Spanish flagship, the Infanta Maria Teresa.

                The armored cruiser Brooklyn sustained 20 enemy hits in that battle, more than any other American ship. It also carried the only American sailor killed in the battle. Admiral Cervera's plan was to break through, cripple the Brooklyn with fire, and then attempt to escape from the remaining, less capable ships of the American squadron. Neither plan worked.

                After the Battle of Santiago de Cuba, only the lazy could have failed to notice the significant role of armored cruisers in squadron battles. In the case of our MTK, that's exactly what happened. They didn't notice.
                1. +3
                  21 May 2026 14: 45
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  The Bayan did not have an armor belt at the stern and there is no carapace armored deck anywhere.

                  That's what you think)))
                  The armored deck at the ends is quite carapace-like. See illustration.
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  Armored cruiser "Brooklyn"

                  Not only did it lack armored ends, but it could only be considered armored in name, since the 76mm main gun only covered the engine rooms. And as we can see, nothing happened to it.
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  In that battle, not one of the Spanish cruisers escaped with just hits from small-caliber shells.

                  Admiral Oquendo
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  Admiral Cervera's actual plan was to break through and disable the Brooklyn with fire, while attempting to escape from the remaining, less navigable ships of the American squadron.

                  Brooklyn had another interesting feature. Four engines powered two shafts, connected by couplings, like on the Rurik. True, this took almost half an hour (does anyone know how long it took on the Rurik?), and to save precious time, they didn't couple them, which meant they could only achieve 16 knots. However, this didn't stop her from catching up with the Cristobal Colon (like the Garibaldi, which you're so keen to promote.) But that's just an aside.
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  After the Battle of Santiago de Cuba, only the lazy could fail to notice the significant place of armored cruisers in the battle of squadrons.

                  Are you referring to the low combat durability of Servera's cruisers?
                  That's how they actually spotted her)))
                  1. 0
                    21 May 2026 16: 30
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    The armored deck at the ends is quite carapace-like. See illustration.

                    Your illustration is incorrect. I've attached the correct illustrations demonstrating the "whole truth" about the Bayan's armor protection.
                    Not only did it lack armored ends, but it could only be considered armored in name, since the 76mm main gun only covered the engine rooms. And as we can see, nothing happened to it.

                    Yes, the Brooklyn was very poorly armored. Which again gave rise to the question of why the Spanish cruisers burned, while "nothing happened" to the Brooklyn. It's worth considering the quality of the shells fired by the participants in the battle and determining how we measure our own shell quality. Are our shells more in line with those of the Spanish than those of the North Americans?
                    Admiral Oquendo

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_cruiser_Almirante_Oquendo

                    "The Almirante Oquendo had won the admiration of her opponents by keeping up an intense barrage of gunfire and machine gun fire. But she had taken three 8-inch (203 mm), one 6-inch (152 mm), one 5-inch (127 mm), and nine 4-inch (102 mm) hits, and soon a fire had started in her aft torpedo room that could not be extinguished and threatened to explode her ammunition and destroy the ship... The Almirante Oquendo had been hit 61 times and had lost 80 men killed in action, including her commander. Sources disagree as to whether he suffered a heart attack or was mortally wounded."
                    However, this did not prevent us from catching up with "Cristóbal Colón" (like "Garibaldi", which you advocate so much for)))

                    You know why they managed to catch up, right? The Cristobal Colón ran out of good coal, and the exhausted stokers, who had spent the previous month defending the besieged city, were exhausted.

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_cruiser_Cristóbal_Colón

                    "After the two Spanish destroyers had been sunk, the Cristobal Colon stood alone, the last surviving ship of Cervera's squadron. For a time it seemed certain that she would escape. Although unable to reach her maximum speed after months of intense engine work, she was considered the fastest ship on either side in the battle, better armored and armed than her former squadron mates, and had so far received only two hits from 5-inch (127 mm) or 6-inch (152 mm) shells. She was making 15 knots (28 km/h), and the fastest and closest American ship, the Brooklyn, was six miles (10 km) behind. The Vixen was close behind the Brooklyn. The armored cruiser USS New York, making 20 knots (37 km/h), was closing, followed at some distance by The battleships Texas and Oregon were moving at maximum speed.

                    Within another hour, Cristobal Colón had used up all her best coal, switched to lower-quality coal, and began to lose speed. At 12:20, Oregon fired a 13-inch (330 mm) shell that landed just astern of Cristobal Colón, and soon 13-inch (330 mm) shells began falling around the Spanish ship, as did 8-inch (203 mm) shells from Brooklyn and New York. She, by contrast, had only one 6-inch (152 mm) gun available to fire on her pursuers. In total, the Spanish cruiser was hit six times.[3] When the firing range dropped to 2000 yards (1830 m), Cristóbal Colón's commander, Captain Emilio Díaz-Moreu y Quintana, decided that after a 50-mile run, the chase was over; to save the lives of his crew, he ordered beaching at the mouth of the Turquino River, 75 miles (121 km) west of Santiago, and ordered his men to open the seacocks to scuttle the cruiser to prevent its capture. Thus ended the Battle of Santiago de Cuba.

                    The battle itself contained a wealth of important information for the observant professional. For example, the striking discrepancy between the number of shots fired by the American ships' cannons and the number of hits they achieved.

                    "Captain 1st Rank A. Shtenzel in his work "The History of War at Sea in its Most Important Manifestations from the Point of View of Naval Tactics" (Vol. 5, 1911 edition) estimated the number of shots fired at 7100."

                    "A. Shtenzel wrote: "...more than 7100 shots were fired from 138 guns (according to later information, even 2000 shells more) and only 163 shells hit."

                    Although in 1911 all this, of course, was already of less tactical and more historical interest.

                    You should learn from the tactical and technical mistakes of others when these mistakes are still fresh.
                    1. +2
                      22 May 2026 15: 13
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      Your illustration is incorrect. I've attached the correct illustrations demonstrating the "whole truth" about the Bayan's armor protection.

                      Sorry, but in this case, I am inclined to think that you have an “incorrect” (or rather less detailed) diagram.
                      Vinogradov and Fedechkin don't describe the cruiser's armor in much detail. Unlike Krestyaninov and Molodtsov, who, incidentally, also have such a diagram. But they do describe it this way:
                      The armored deck, in the form of a carapace, was covered with 30 mm plates along the entire length of the lower belt. Behind the lower beam it descended towards the stern.
                      Moreover, Vinogradov and his co-author, while listing the armor's shortcomings, barely mention the "unarmored stern," saying, "It would be nice to extend the belt into the stern, but nothing more." Meanwhile, if the diagram you're referring to is accurate, it's not just minor flaws like "the lack of armor on the smokestacks," but... a complete hole!
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      But he got three 8-inch (203 mm), one 6-inch (152 mm), one 5-inch (127 mm) and nine 4-inch (102 mm)

                      Don't you agree, it's not too much for an armored cruiser with a displacement of 7000 tons?
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      Almirante Oquendo received 61 hits

                      Therefore, the remaining 47 hits were small-caliber....
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      Despite the fact that after several months of intense work of the machines the ship

                      Where was he hanging around for "several months", given that he joined the army right before the war and never went anywhere except Cuba?
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      You know why you managed to catch up, right?

                      Obviously, because the dynamic qualities of cruisers of this type have never been particularly good.
                      You know, it's one thing to miss a knot or two due to poor coal and tired stokers, but it's quite another to fail to outrun a 16-knot enemy. And the not-too-far-behind 15-knot Oregon, which still needed to get up to speed, is downright depressing.
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      exhausted stokers who had spent a month defending the besieged city

                      What did stokers do? Did they go to the front?
                      You do understand that this is nonsense, right?
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      The battle itself contained a lot of important information for the attentive professional. For example, there is a striking difference between the number of shots fired from the guns of American ships and the number of hits achieved..

                      The battleships' main battery, in particular, performed... absolutely poorly. Mainly due to their excessively heavy shells.
                      You know, it seems as if the experience of that war deliberately confirmed the decisions of our naval commanders, decisions that later turned out to be erroneous. There's the abundance of small-caliber artillery, the lighter shells, and, perhaps, the abandonment of armored cruisers like the Garibaldians. request
                      1. 0
                        22 May 2026 18: 00
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Sorry, but in this case, I am inclined to think that you have an “incorrect” (or rather less detailed) diagram.
                        Vinogradov and Fedechkin don't describe the cruiser's armor in much detail. Unlike Krestyaninov and Molodtsov, who, incidentally, also have such a diagram. But they do describe it this way:
                        The armored deck, carapace-shaped, was covered with 30mm plates along the entire length of the lower belt. Aft of the lower beam, it sloped toward the stern.

                        "Rurik": "The armored (carapace) deck, 44,5 mm thick in the area of ​​the engine and boiler rooms, decreased towards the ends to 25,4 mm and was laid on a steel deck plating 31,5 mm thick." R. M. Melnikov

                        I quoted what happened to the Rurik's steering.

                        "Accordion": "At the stern, behind the 8” installation, there was no side armor; maintaining buoyancy here and protecting the steering gear was entrusted, as with the citadel battleships of the 80s, to the carapace deck, also 30 mm thick over two layers of shipbuilding steel of 10 mm each." S. Vinogradov, A. Fedechkin

                        Below I have attached sections of the hulls of the Rurik and Bayan with the armored decks highlighted.

                        Are you going to insist that Bayan's ruble control was better protected than Rurik's? If so, I'd like to hear your argument.
                        Agree, not too many for a 7000-ton armored cruiser? So, the remaining 47 hits were small-caliber...

                        The fire that threatened to explode the ammunition started from "not too many" hits from medium-caliber shells, and not from the many more small-caliber shells that fell during the final phase of the shooting.
                        Where was he hanging around for "several months", given that he joined the army right before the war and never went anywhere except Cuba?

                        The Cristobal Colon was handed over to its Spanish crew in May 1897. Cervera's voyage to Cuba began on April 8, 1898, from Cadiz. The Battle of Santiago de Cuba took place on July 3, 1898.

                        From "entered service just before the war" to the battle, 13 months passed.
                        https://www.spanamwar.com/colon.htm
                        "The Cristobal Colon was the third ship to leave Santiago Bay on July 3, 1898. Taking advantage of the confusion and her speed, she seemed for a time able to evade pursuit. However, the Colon's furnaces soon ran out of high-quality Cardiff coal, and when the stokers were forced to switch to low-grade coal mined in Cuba, the ship's speed dropped sharply. The Cristobal Colon's commander, Captain 1st Rank Emilio Diaz Moreu, also made a serious tactical error by keeping close to the shore instead of going out to sea. Around 14:00 PM, the American fleet closed within gunshot range, and the captain, unwilling to engage in battle, steered his undamaged ship toward the rocks, opened the seacocks to scuttle the vessel, and hauled down his colors."
                        Obviously, because the dynamic qualities of cruisers of this type have never been particularly good.

                        It is obvious that the Cristobal Colon was caught because it ran out of quality coal on board - that is the most important thing.
                        The second is that his stokers who participated in the ground defense suffered from malnutrition and were exhausted.
                        Thirdly, fouling of the bottom in tropical waters in the absence of dry-dock.
                        Fourth, I believe that for 14 months after commissioning, the engines and boilers were not serviced as they were in first-class fleets of that time.
                        The Spaniards' guns weren't locking, and you're confused as to why the cruiser didn't go at 20 knots in an attempt to escape the chase.

                        You are aware that at the time of the Battle of Chemulpo on February 9, 1904, the actual maximum speed of the newest cruiser, the Varyag, was only 16–17 knots due to serious technical problems?

                        "After the first overhaul, the cruiser's speed was 19 knots; after the second, it dropped to 16. No one can predict what it will be like after the third."

                        Did you know that the Cristóbal Colón boiler plant also used Nikloss boilers?
                        What did stokers do? Go to the front? You understand that's nonsense, right?

                        The stokers most likely participated in the construction of defensive structures.

                        "About 450 men (not counting the teams working on the fortifications) were sent from the ships of the Spanish squadron to participate in the city's defense. The American advance was stopped.

                        Realizing the futility of a naval battle, Cervera proposed using the squadron's resources for the land defense of Santiago. However, the city was suffering from a severe food shortage, and the commandant asked Cervera to abandon the port. Of decisive importance was the order of Marshal Blanco, commander-in-chief of the Spanish forces in Cuba. On July 2, he categorically demanded that Cervera immediately break through to Havana. The admiral was forced to comply, despite believing that "an attempt to leave this port would undoubtedly entail the loss of the squadron and the death of a large part of the crews of all my ships."

                        The battleships' main battery, in particular, performed... absolutely poorly. Mainly due to their excessively heavy shells.

                        The hit rate achieved by the Americans at the ranges observed in the battle demonstrated, first and foremost, that the US Navy at the time was poor marksmanship. However, the Spanish, in addition to poor marksmanship, also had problems with poorly designed cannon locks and the quality of their artillery rounds and fuse tubes.

                        The fact that the American battleships' main battery could fire only once every few minutes explains why the Americans only hit a couple of times with their main guns, while the Spanish didn't hit a single target with their eleven-inch guns.

                        A naval battle between two disabled fleets. However, the Americans had a much better technical condition of their ships, as well as the quality of their naval artillery and ammunition, than the Spanish.
                      2. +2
                        23 May 2026 08: 25
                        Colleague, your verbosity... makes me wary.
                        You know, I quickly looked through all the monographs on the "bayan" that I had at hand, starting with Melnikov, and came to the conclusion that it may well be that you are right about the carapaces.
                        In general, the armor protection of the Bayan's stern still needs to be sorted out.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        "Rurik": "The armored (carapace) deck, 44,5 mm thick in the area of ​​the engine-boiler rooms, decreased towards the ends to 25,4 mm and lay on a steel deck plating 31,5 mm thick." R. M. Melnikov

                        Colleague, this is all wonderful, but there's also Pakhomov. He writes that during the construction of the Rurik, they didn't yet know how to make complex-shaped slabs for the carapace out of steel, which is why they made them out of iron. With corresponding results.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        From "entered service just before the war" to the battle, 13 months passed.

                        And what long hikes what did he manage to accomplish during this time?
                        The resource is not particularly wasted in parking...
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Did you know that the Cristóbal Colón boiler plant also used Nikloss boilers?

                        Did you know that the Varyag's problems weren't limited to the boilers? The bearings on the shafts were overheating, which indicates either a misalignment of the hull geometry or an imbalance in the engines. After completion, the Varyag managed to sail to the Baltic, then the Mediterranean, then the Middle East, and only then did it end up in Port Arthur.
                        The mileage is several times greater than that of the Colon.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        The stokers most likely participated in the construction of defensive structures.

                        Are there no more blacks in Havana?
                        No, the possibility of this, of course, exists, but I think it’s not that big...
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        The fact that the main battery of the American battleships could then fire only once every few minutes actually explains why the Americans only hit a couple of times with their main caliber.

                        They also had the heaviest 305mm and 330mm shells (even heavier than ours in WWI), resulting in poor flatness. This, obviously, further convinced our admirals of Makarov's correctness.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Naval battle between two disabled fleets.

                        More like disabled and amateurish))
                      3. -1
                        23 May 2026 15: 04
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Colleague, your verbosity... makes me wary.

                        Alas, colleague, I am not talented enough to be brief. wink
                        Colleague, this is all wonderful, but there's also Pakhomov. He writes that during the construction of the Rurik, they didn't yet know how to make complex-shaped slabs for the carapace out of steel, which is why they made them out of iron.

                        Until the early 1890s, carapace armor decks were made primarily of soft shipbuilding steel (open-hearth or crucible steel). Soft nickel (nickel-alloyed) steel with increased resistance for carapace and horizontal armor decks of ships was widely introduced worldwide in the first half of the 1890s. I couldn't immediately find Pakhomov's book, but I did find a suitable quote:

                        https://samlib.ru/m/matweenko_a_g/proizwodstwobronidljanuzhdflotawrossijskojimperii.shtml

                        "On April 9, a meeting of the MTC was convened again. At it, M.I. Kazi recalled that the plant was capable of adjusting the carapace plates only if the thickness of these plates did not exceed 1,75 dm (44,45 mm). As a result, the MTC was forced to abandon solid carapace armor in favor of layered armor. The thickness of the upper layer of the armor deck plating was reduced to 1,75 dm so that the thickness of the lower layer was increased from 5/8 dm (15,875 mm) to 1,25 dm (31,75 mm), so that the total thickness of both layers remained the same - 3 dm (76,2 mm).
                        The above-mentioned thicknesses (lower 1,25 dm and upper 1,75 dm) must be maintained throughout the entire length of the underwater armored deck at the stern of the cruiser...

                        N.A. Pakhomov's work further clarifies that the 9,5-mm deck planking remained beneath the two-layer carapace. As a result, their combined thickness was 66,65/76,2/85,7 mm at the bow (three sections from the stem to the forward beam of the belt along the waterline) and 85,7 mm at the stern. However, these carapace shells, manufactured by the Baltic Shipyard from shipbuilding steel, despite their nominally considerable thickness, were essentially only a symbolic defense. And, as Pakhomov writes, in battle, Japanese shells easily penetrated the layered stern carapace and disabled the steering system.

                        The said author says nothing about the problems with the production of flat armoring of the living deck within the belt along the waterline and its traverses - but one can only assume that at least the 38,1-mm plates present here on the 19,05-mm deck flooring were made of Putilov steel with improved mechanical qualities."


                        Thus, according to Pakhomov, the carapace deck in the stern of the Rurik consisted of three layers of shipbuilding steel (possibly the first two of them were steel with improved mechanical properties) with a total thickness of: 44,45 + 31,75 + 9,5 = 85,7 mm.

                        What some sources call the "carapace" (I put it in quotes because the deflection was minimal and the vertical projection was near zero) deck at the stern of the "Bayan" also consisted of three layers: 30 mm of high-strength nickel steel and two 10 mm layers of ordinary shipbuilding steel.

                        What is better, three layers of shipbuilding steel with a total thickness of 87,5 mm, or three layers of steel with a total thickness of 50 mm, the first of which is 30 mm of high-strength nickel steel, and the second and third 10 mm + 10 mm layers of ordinary shipbuilding steel, decide for yourself, colleague.

                        However, it's worth remembering that the destructive power of Russian and Japanese shells on deck armor varied. For example, large fragments from Japanese shells often penetrated the armored decks of Russian ships. For example, on the Orel, a large (I believe they said two-pood) fragment from a Japanese shell, with its impact and explosion, dented the armor of the 6" left bow turret and distorted the turret ring. It penetrated several decks, including the armor (which was no longer made of nickel steel, but of 2" chromium-nickel steel), and also damaged the 75mm gun in the battery.

                        I personally don’t recall any cases where large fragments of Russian shells pierced the armored decks of Japanese ships.
                        And what long journeys did he manage to undertake during this time?

                        He definitely managed to complete the crossing from Italy to Spain and the transatlantic crossing from Spain to Cuba. wink

                        "The ship hadn't been dry-docked for over a year. Its underwater section was heavily overgrown with seaweed and barnacles, which dramatically increased water resistance.

                        After a grueling transatlantic crossing, the boilers required cleaning (cleaning the tubes of scale), and the mechanisms required a scheduled overhaul, which was impossible to do in the blockaded Santiago."
                        Did you know that the Varyag's problems weren't limited to boilers?

                        I know. But unlike the Spanish cruiser, the Varyag didn't lose 5 knots of full speed, but more than 7 knots.
                        The mileage is several times greater than that of the Colon.

                        The AI ​​estimated the Cristobal Colon's mileage over the 13 months from its commissioning to its destruction at 15 to 20 miles.
                        Are there no more blacks in Havana?

                        I can only assume that the blacks rebelled. wink In any case, a number of sources indicate that the stokers were exhausted by malnutrition and their work constructing defensive fortifications. By order of the command, the shore detachment returned to their ships only on the night of July 2–3, literally hours before setting sail. The crews spent the night without sleep, loading supplies, preparing guns, and generating steam. American historians and surviving Spanish officers later emphasized in their memoirs that the sailors and stokers, thrown into the punishing physical labor of the stokers and gunners, were physically exhausted and went into battle on an empty stomach. The only rations distributed on some ships before opening fire were rations of wine or diluted vodka to maintain morale.
                        They also had the heaviest 305mm and 330mm shells (even heavier than ours in WWI), resulting in poor flatness. This, obviously, further convinced our admirals of Makarov's correctness.

                        The Americans decided that the reason for the low accuracy of their shooting in 1898 was something else, and they turned out to be right:

                        https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2015/april/continuous-aim-fire-learning-how-shoot

                        Sims observed gunnery exercises aboard the Terrible and learned that the British had improved their gunnery accuracy by an order of magnitude, increasing the rate of fire nearly fourfold. A single ship could inflict as much devastating damage as an entire squadron still using the old methods. Although the Royal Navy showed no interest in Scott's invention, Sims immediately returned to the U.S. Navy's Asiatic Squadron and began experimenting with shipboard gun mechanisms and training crews in the new methods. After working in Europe as an intelligence collector and analyst, he immediately wrote a report, which he sent to the Bureau of Ordnance (BuOrd) in Washington.

                        [...]

                        Sims returned to Washington and took up his new duties with the tenacity of a blue crab clinging to a chicken bone. He was assigned two junior lieutenants, Ridley Maclean and Powers Symington, to assist him, and he began to revolutionize gunnery in the U.S. Navy. They began by implementing a system of continuous aimed fire and making gunnery training mandatory for all ships. They also instituted an annual gunnery competition involving all ships in the fleet. The winner's name was published in the newspapers of the day and earned the honor of being named the best ship in the navy. Furthermore, the gunnery officer of the victorious ship was required to write a report on how their ship had achieved victory. These reports were sent to American mess halls worldwide, fostering the constant improvement of gunnery techniques and methods.

                        Sims was promoted to lieutenant commander and embarked on a circumnavigation of the globe to visit ships and assist in training gun crews. In just a few years, he and his crew forever changed naval warfare. The system they introduced increased the rate of engagement of American gunners by 100% and the effectiveness of American batteries by 500%. American sailors became some of the best gunners in the world and revolutionized naval warfare. Subsequent innovations included the fire control system and the large-caliber battleship, or dreadnought. In the navy, William Sims was nicknamed "the man who taught us how to shoot."
                      4. +3
                        25 May 2026 23: 00
                        For example, on the "Eagle" a large (I think they wrote that it weighed two pounds) fragment of a Japanese shell with its impact and explosion dented the armor of the 6" left bow turret and warped the turret on the turret ring, penetrated several decks, including the armor (no longer made of nickel, but of 2" chromium-nickel steel), and broke the 75 mm gun in the battery

                        Alexander, you're really fantasizing. In reality, nothing like this happened.
                      5. -1
                        26 May 2026 10: 01
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Alexander, you're really fantasizing. In reality, nothing like this happened.


                        https://sstc.spb.ru/news/ЗАПИСКИ.%201906%20и%201910%20-%201911%20г.г..pdf

                        "The 1 1/16 inch armor deck was pierced in two places by fragments of a 12 inch shell when it exploded near the deck above."

                        "Of the 12 guns of the battery, only 2 were out of action. ... The other gun, the left bow gun, was disabled by fragments of a 12-inch shell that pierced the armored deck above it. The shell exploded under the bottom of the 6-inch left bow turret."

                        "The 12-inch shells often produced very large fragments. Some of them penetrated the deck armor 1 1/16 inches thick. A fragment weighing about 2 poods was found in the battery."

                        "The left bow 6-inch (turret) was completely destroyed by a 12-inch shell exploding under the base of the turret. The Mamerinets was tied in a knot. Gases hit the bottom of the turret on the left side with such force that they dented the rollers on the right, and the turret was completely warped."


                        Yes, dear Alexey, I "imagined" that a large fragment, weighing approximately two pounds, penetrated a 2" armor deck. The fragment, among others, only penetrated a 1 1/16-inch (~27 mm) armor deck.

                        But I think I "overinflated" a little, not "overinflated." My memory of the thickness of the armor deck above the battery failed me. And it wasn't necessarily that particular fragment, roughly two pounds in weight, that ended up in the battery that disabled the left bow 75mm gun. It could have been another fragment or fragments.

                        So you've forgotten about this damage to the "Eagle"? Well, we're all human, we're all imperfect.
                      6. +3
                        26 May 2026 21: 12
                        Alexander, no one doubts that you know how to quote a lot. But not every quote is true.
                        It's good that many photos of the captured "Eagle" have reached us!
                        The left 6-inch forward turret was completely destroyed by a 12-inch shell exploding under the base of the turret. Mamerinets was tied in a knot. Gases hit the bottom of the turret on the left side with such force that they dented the rollers on the right, and the turret was completely warped.

                        No, the shell didn't hit the turret, but the turret itself, its lower part. See photo 2. The approximate moment of impact is known—during the divergence of the guns on counter-courses.

                        Of the battery's 12 guns, only 2 were out of action. ... The other gun, the left bow gun, was disabled by fragments from a 12-inch shell that penetrated the armored deck above it. The shell exploded under the bottom of the 6-inch left bow turret.

                        The left 75mm gun was disabled by a hit to the armor near the embrasure. See photo 3. Tumanov was wounded by shrapnel from the same hit. The approximate time of the hit is known: after the Oslyabya was disabled, but before the Orel turned left.

                        The 1 1/16-inch armor deck was pierced in two places by fragments from a 12-inch shell when it exploded near the deck above.

                        Yes, there is such evidence in Russian sources. But none of the four foreign (Japanese and English) descriptions of the damage mention this.

                        that a large fragment, approximately two pounds in weight, pierced the 2" armor deck

                        This is not even in your quotes.
                      7. 0
                        27 May 2026 18: 46
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Alexander, no one doubts that you know how to quote a lot. But not every quote is true.

                        Dear Alexey, I'm accustomed to citing the sources of my "considerable fantasies." In this case, it turns out it wasn't me who "considerably fantasized," but V.P. Kostenko in his "Notes on the Battle of Tsushima and Some Technical Conclusions Derived from It." wink
                        No, the shell did not hit under the turret, but the turret itself, its lower part.

                        By the way, in my reply, to which you said I "vastly fantasized," there was no mention at all of where the shell hit—the turret or under it. Instead, I wrote that the shell dented the turret armor and twisted the turret ring. What do you see in the photo? Did the shell dent the turret armor with its impact and explosion? On this point, are you withdrawing your accusation that I "vastly fantasized"? wink

                        Furthermore, I admit that V.P. Kostenko was mistaken in his notes when he wrote that the left bow 75 mm gun in the battery was disabled by fragments of a shell that hit the 6" turret (especially since there is still no consensus on whether it was a 12" shell or an 8").
                        Yes, there is such evidence in Russian sources. But none of the four foreign (Japanese and English) descriptions of the damage mention this.

                        And apparently, foreign sources also make no mention of the fragment "weighing about 2 pounds" found in the battery. Apparently, the fragment wasn't stored on the Orel until the Japanese arrived.

                        So what? Who should I trust more, V.P. Kostenko, who noted that the 27mm armor (plus a backing of ordinary shipbuilding steel) on the Orel was penetrated in two places, or the foreign sources that didn't mention it?

                        I wanted to back up my assertion that the Bayan's stern protection, with a 30mm armor deck on a 20mm backing of two sheets of shipbuilding steel, was unsatisfactory. It protected the steering gear no worse, or at least no better, than the Rurik's armor deck protected the steering gear of that Russian armored cruiser, which was lost due to a rudder failure. I made this point with reference to the Orel's armor deck, which was penetrated in two places.
                        This is not even in your quotes.

                        Quote: "The 12-inch shells often produced very large fragments. Some of them penetrated the deck armor 1 1/16 inches thick. A fragment weighing about 2 poods was found in the battery."
                        Do you think that when V.P. Kostenko wrote about large fragments of 12" shells, "some of which penetrated the 1 1/16 inch thick deck armor" located above the 75 mm battery, and immediately mentioned a fragment weighing about 2 poods that ended up in the battery, he assumed that this fragment flew into the battery through the embrasure?

                        I'd like to hear your theory about how this fragment could have ended up in the battery. Or is your theory that V.P. Kostenko "contrived a lot" about a large fragment of a Japanese shell weighing almost two pounds found in the battery because foreign sources didn't report anything about it?

                        I confessed to having "fantasized" that the armor deck was 2" instead of 1 1/16". Even with a shipbuilding steel backing, the deck "pie" was less than two inches thick.
                      8. +2
                        27 May 2026 22: 18
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        In this case, it turns out that it was not me who “fantasized a lot,” but V.P. Kostenko

                        And Kostenko posted a message on the forum?

                        But I wrote that the shell dented the turret armor.

                        You also wrote about the fragment.

                        I admit that V.P. Kostenko made a mistake in his notes when he wrote that the left bow 75 mm gun in the battery was disabled by shell fragments that hit the 6" turret.

                        Did Kostenko even write about this?

                        And about the fragment found in the battery, "weighting about 2 poods"

                        Who found this fragment and when?

                        Your version of how this fragment could have flown into the battery

                        Kostenko has a diagram of how a 12-inch armor-piercing shell would hit, and a fragment from it could have remained in the battery deck.
                      9. -1
                        28 May 2026 01: 02
                        Quote: rytik32
                        And Kostenko posted a message on the forum?

                        V.P. Kostenko was the one who "fantasized considerably," apparently as an eyewitness, back in 1906. I'm just a pathetic epigone. My "fantasies" about large fragments of Japanese shells piercing the armored deck are from V.P. Kostenko. wink
                        You also wrote about the fragment.

                        Again, because I remembered V.P. Kostenko's mention of a roughly two-pound fragment found in the Orel 75mm battery. What's wrong with that? Wasn't it allowed to write about the fragment?

                        V.P. Kostenko wrote about very large fragments of 12" shells that twice penetrated 1 1/16" armor decks. V.P. Kostenko wrote that approximately a two-pood fragment of such a shell ended up in the battery.
                        Did Kostenko even write about this?

                        Are you too lazy to reread the quotes given above, dear Alexey?

                        I'm not too lazy to repeat what Kostenko wrote: "Another gun (note - in the battery), the left bow gun, was disabled by fragments of a 12-inch shell that penetrated the armored deck above it. The shell exploded under the bottom of the 6-inch left bow turret."
                        Who found this fragment and when?

                        It’s a pity, but V.P. Kostenko didn’t write about this.
                        Kostenko has a diagram of how a 12-inch armor-piercing shell would hit, and a fragment from it could have remained in the battery deck.

                        So what's the possible trajectory of a "very large fragment" according to this diagram? Did it really fly into the 75mm battery through the gun port?

                        And yes, let's return to the specifics of my "fantasies" inspired by the "notes" of V.P. Kostenko.

                        1. Do you think that large fragments of Japanese shells could not penetrate the 27 mm armor deck and the soft shipbuilding steel base underneath?

                        Why do you think so?

                        2. Perhaps it was a mistake to install 37mm nickel-steel splinter-proof bulkheads (half-bulkheads) between the guns on our ships' battery decks? Perhaps 27mm bulkheads, or even thinner bulkheads, say 19mm (6/8"), would have been sufficient?

                        I would be interested to know your reasoned opinion on this matter.
                      10. 0
                        28 May 2026 02: 00
                        https://tsushima.su/forums/viewtopic.php?pid=300459

                        Testimony of naval engineer K.K.I. Junior Assistant Shipbuilder Kostenko.

                        "The armored deck above the battery, 1 1/16" thick, was pierced in two places by fragments from 12" shells that exploded on the deck above. One fragment was later found in the battery. It weighed about 2 poods. The holes were small, 18" x 6".

                        Testimony of Senior Officer Captain 2nd Rank Shvede.

                        "12" shells, exploding near the side, simultaneously penetrated the deck below. The armored deck, 1 1/16 of which was easily penetrated by fragments from 12" shells.
        2. +3
          19 May 2026 13: 24
          Quote: Evgeny Lyubchinov
          Excuse me, but did you come up with the idea that Russian battleships were supposed to fight Japanese armored cruisers?

          No, why bother? There are well-known plans to strengthen our armed forces in the Far East, which were supposed to consist of, mind you, 10 full-fledged battleships against six. And no cruisers in the line. Japan planned to use its cruisers in a full-fledged squadron battle. We didn't. And the fact that the Japanese succeeded doesn't mean it was good; it means we simply didn't have time to mobilize, when instead of 10, we only had seven against six at the start of the war. And unfortunately, our command didn't grasp the principle of "hit the weakest" in time, otherwise we could well have seen epic moments "a la Jutland," but performed by the Japanese. One such moment happened by the way, but in the Korean Strait. One lucky shell from us and 150 Japanese searching for the light at the end of the tunnel.
          , and was almost twice as powerful as a broadside.

          There, senior sailor Ivan explained everything well about this.
          Please go down the thread further.
          With mutual respect!
  5. VlK
    +1
    19 May 2026 11: 08
    Thanks to the author for the interesting continuation.
    There were a few questions.
    1.
    3. The hull must have a generally accepted design (double bottom), the underwater part must be covered with wood and copper. Subsequently, the copper cladding was abandoned, which was certainly correct., but it was present in the original terms of reference.

    and why, actually, how is this explained?
    2. The presence of a significant number of 75mm artillery barrels in French projects - was this still considered as an anti-mine caliber, or already as a means of combating classmates - cruisers?
    2. Just two 8" guns—isn't that a strange choice, considering that later, salvo fire, attempting to cover the target, would be the primary mode of fire. But isn't the density of such a salvo a bit thin here? Was this caliber considered as a primary weapon, or perhaps just a qualitative boost?
    1. +6
      19 May 2026 12: 26
      Quote: VlK
      How can this be explained?

      Wood and copper paneling with all its advantages
      a) Heavy.
      b) Weakens the underwater part of the side
      c) sensitive to damage, like the one that delayed Oslyabya.
      At that time, new paints with a caustic composition had already appeared, protecting the underwater part from fouling (not as reliably, but still)
      Quote: VlK
      The presence of a significant number of 75mm artillery barrels in French projects - was this still considered as an anti-mine caliber, or already as a means of combating classmates - cruisers?

      Both. Quote:
      75mm guns, “almost as fast as 47mm guns in their rate of fire, can be used at long range against destroyers and light cruisers, and are more accurate in their flatness.
      This is about "Goddesses" but the requirements are the same.
      And the results of the battle at Santiago de Cuba, when American 57mm shells literally showered Cervera's cruisers, seemed to confirm these calculations.
      Quote: VlK
      Only two 8" guns - isn't that a strange choice?

      The choice was entirely justified. The fact is that during that period, twin-gun turrets were inferior to single-gun turrets in accuracy, without the advantage of a faster rate of fire.
      The first is due to the fact that in a single-gun turret, the gun is positioned, roughly speaking, in the middle, and its fire doesn't disrupt the aim of the adjacent gun. Therefore, closer to WWI, the introduction of Janie couplings made it possible to overcome this limitation, but by the end of the 19th century, it was practically inevitable.
      The second reason is that the rate of fire depends not only on the number of barrels but also on the rate of shell feed. And since such small turrets typically had only one elevator, the combat rate of fire for single- and twin-gun turrets was more or less the same.
      True, British engineers managed to get around this by placing some of the ammunition directly in the turrets. This was a good solution for increasing the rate of fire, but a bad one for survivability. That's why our MTK would never have accepted either the Garibaldians or the Asamoids.
      Quote: VlK
      What was the purpose of such a caliber then considered - as the main one, or perhaps only for qualitative reinforcement?

      The six-inch caliber was considered the primary caliber back then. It was also used for sighting in. Once the range was determined, the main caliber came into play.
      In general, 8" is quite enough to, if not disable, then at least seriously damage an armored deck ship with a successful hit. For example, the Elswicks, which traditionally had weak hulls.
      Somehow hi
      1. VlK
        +4
        19 May 2026 15: 29
        Thank you for a very interesting and detailed answer.
      2. Alf
        +1
        19 May 2026 19: 40
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        And the results of the battle at Santiago de Cuba, when American 57mm shells literally showered Cervera's cruisers, seemed to confirm these calculations.

        And the admirals didn’t take into account the distance of this outrage?
        1. 0
          19 May 2026 19: 57
          And who said that in the next war it will be bigger?:))))
          1. Alf
            +1
            19 May 2026 20: 13
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            And who said that in the next war it will be bigger?:))))

            Apparently, the admirals did not understand why the firing range of the 6-inch gun was almost 10 km?
            1. +1
              19 May 2026 21: 36
              Quote: Alf
              Apparently, the admirals did not understand why the firing range of the 6-inch gun was almost 10 km?

              To penetrate armor, of course.
            2. +2
              20 May 2026 16: 24
              Quote: Alf
              Apparently, the admirals did not understand why the firing range of the 6-inch gun was almost 10 km?

              Even back then, cannons could fire at 60 cable lengths. But they couldn't hit targets yet...
          2. Alf
            +1
            19 May 2026 20: 20
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            And who said that in the next war it will be bigger?:))))

            But here's the thing. In 1898, the world's first fleet, the British, had already begun practicing marksmanship at 5 km ranges in the Mediterranean. As the saying goes, "If the Brits can learn to shoot at 5 km now, what will happen in 5 years?"
            1. +3
              19 May 2026 21: 37
              Quote: Alf
              In 1898, the world's first fleet (at that time, the British fleet) had already begun practicing shooting at distances of 5 km in the Mediterranean.

              5 km is only 27 kbt. Our guys were shooting at about that much; training usually started with 25 kbt.
              1. Alf
                0
                19 May 2026 21: 55
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                5 km is only 27 kbt. Our guys were shooting at about that much; training usually started with 25 kbt.

                I may be wrong, but until the beginning of the 20th century, shooting was practiced at a distance of 1800-2500 meters...
                1. +2
                  20 May 2026 07: 08
                  Quote: Alf
                  I may be wrong, but until the beginning of the 20th century, shooting was practiced at a distance of 1800-2500 meters...

                  Including in England. They began shooting at 5 km distances towards the end of the 19th century, not universally, but as an experiment.
      3. VlK
        0
        19 May 2026 21: 12
        The six-inch caliber was considered the primary caliber back then. It was also used for sighting in. Once the range was determined, the main caliber came into play.
        In general, 8" is quite enough to, if not disable, then at least seriously damage an armored deck ship with a successful hit. For example, the Elswicks, which traditionally had weak hulls.

        Was the possibility of firing separately with the cruiser’s 8" guns then considered, for example at a distance exceeding the capabilities of 6"?
        1. +1
          19 May 2026 21: 45
          Quote: VlK
          Was the possibility of firing separately with the cruiser’s 8" guns then considered, for example at a distance exceeding the capabilities of 6"?

          No
    2. +4
      19 May 2026 16: 04
      Good afternoon, Vladimir. Dear Ivan, your answer was exhaustive. I'll just add that volley sighting wasn't yet in use in those days, as it was very difficult to organize with the available equipment, and there wasn't much need for it. Otherwise, yes, guns longer than 6 inches typically didn't participate in sighting and only opened fire to kill once the range had been established.
  6. +2
    19 May 2026 11: 57
    For my part, I can only express regret that shipbuilders from countries other than France were not allowed to participate in the competition for the design of the armored cruiser Bayan. It would have been very interesting to see how they would have solved the problem set by our Naval Ministry.

    I completely share the author's opinion. It's a shame our Mormonism didn't take a broader view. I'm even curious what the Germans and Italians could have come up with.
  7. +2
    19 May 2026 12: 19
    But it was expected that such a cruiser, operating outside the line of battleships, would still be capable of participating in a squadron battle, although it remained unclear to me in what capacity. One might assume that this meant fire support, in which the cruiser, while outside the line, would fire at engaged enemy battleships, or combat with enemy cruisers attempting to do the same to our squadron battleships.

    This possibility was considered in other navies, but most favored a multi-ship detachment. A single ship would be of little use.
  8. +2
    19 May 2026 18: 13
    Returning to the author's final point, it's truly a shame that German shipbuilders weren't allowed to participate. The Askold, Bogatyr, and Oleg, as well as the Novik, participated in the Russian-built RYA, while the Yakumo cruiser participated on the Japanese side. And in all the extensive literature devoted to this war, I haven't encountered a single negative review regarding the combat qualities of these German-built ships... (Yes, I know that the Oleg was built by the Russians, but based on the Bogatyr design.)
    1. +4
      19 May 2026 19: 05
      Quote: Victor Masyuk
      Returning to the author’s last thesis, it is truly a pity that German shipbuilders were not admitted to the competition.

      The German armored cruisers built before 1897 didn't inspire optimism at all. The Fürst Bismarck was more of a second-class battleship, like our Peresvets, while the Prinz Heinrich was still on the slipway, and comparatively slow to boot. Although something interesting could have been developed from the latter. So, yes. Still, it's probably a shame.
      Quote: Victor Masyuk
      And in all the numerous literature devoted to this war, I have not encountered a single negative review regarding the combat qualities of these German-built ships...

      The Askold has a weak hull. Which, considering its relative low cost and decent crane manipulator, isn't such a big drawback.
      The Bogatyr spent most of the war under repair. The Oleg performed well, but was not much better than the Aurora, whose design was used by everyone. The only thing is that its losses among personnel were significantly lower, which is, of course, quite significant.
      "Novik"... a weak hull, a not-so-reliable crane control system, made worse by wear and tear. Weak armament, mounted on an unstable platform... The cruiser was lucky to be commanded by proactive and capable commanders like Essen and Schultz. Otherwise, it wasn't a ship, it was a prototype.
      1. 0
        19 May 2026 22: 42
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        The cruiser was lucky to be commanded by proactive and capable commanders - Essen and Schultz.

        There are serious doubts about Schultz's intelligence and initiative.
        1. +1
          20 May 2026 19: 47
          What are the claims against him?
          Especially compared to the rest feel
          1. -1
            20 May 2026 21: 26
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            What are the claims against him?

            Just remember Schultz's escape from Japanese destroyers under the Pacific Fleet, and the question of initiative disappears. And the ineptly planned route around Japan, so close to the coast that Novik was bound to get caught. As was the extremely predictable choice of coal loading location. In short, Mr. Schultz clearly didn't shine in either courage or intellect. This is no Essen.
            1. 0
              21 May 2026 11: 02
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Well, the route around Japan was so poorly laid out, so close to the shores that Novik couldn't help but be spotted.

              Have you forgotten that there wasn't enough coal to go around Novik?
              Quote: Saxahorse
              As is the extremely predictable choice of coal loading location.

              good And Schultz had a truly rich choice of places where this could be done?
              Quote: Saxahorse
              It is enough to recall Schultz's escape from Japanese destroyers under P-A

              I even have trouble understanding where you got this idea.
            2. +2
              21 May 2026 11: 27
              Well, I expected something like this from you)))
              1. +2
                21 May 2026 15: 10
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                Well, I expected something like this from you)))

                Agree, it’s nice when there is something constant in life. laughing
                1. 0
                  21 May 2026 21: 49
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Agree, it’s nice when there is something constant in life.

                  That's for sure! wassat
                  We're no stranger to the illiteracy of our "expert" on the Russian nuclear forces. You can look up the episode with the destroyers yourself, you "historian." laughing
      2. +1
        20 May 2026 13: 30
        On the other hand, of all the cruisers I mentioned, only Yakumo was armored. Of course, the Japanese shared little information about its combat performance, but Yakumo views the rare information that was publicly available favorably. Given that it's more logical to evaluate cruisers of the same class, one might have hoped that the Germans would have built a good small armored cruiser (which is essentially what Bayan was).
        1. +1
          20 May 2026 16: 13
          Quote: Victor Masyuk
          Based on the fact that it is more logical to evaluate cruisers of the same class, one could hope that the Germans would have cobbled together a good small BrKr (which is essentially what Bayan was)

          Yes, it seems like they proposed something accordion-like for the competition instead of the Askold, but our guys decided that a large anti-submarine ship was needed.
          1. +1
            20 May 2026 16: 22
            Ah, that's a shame. But I've never even come across any information that the Germans immediately proposed an armored cruiser, while ours requested an armored deck cruiser. The information that Russia submitted the performance characteristics of an armored deck cruiser to the competition seems classic: 6, 12 six-inch guns, and a speed of 23 knots.
            1. +3
              20 May 2026 16: 44
              Quote: Victor Masyuk
              The information that Russia sent to the competition the performance characteristics of an armored cruiser with 6 guns, 12 six-inch guns, and a speed of 23 knots appears to be classic.

              In terms of hull armor protection, MTK specialists rated the Krupp design above all others. In addition to a thicker armor deck than other designs, the engines were to be protected by 100-mm sloping plates, and the space between the armor and battery decks, extending past the engine and boiler rooms, was designated for coal storage as additional protection.

              In terms of artillery placement and strength, the Schichau design was significantly superior to all others and exceeded program requirements: two 203-mm guns in turrets with 152-mm armor, eight 152-mm guns with shields, four 120-mm guns, and sixteen 57-mm guns. Regarding the mechanical installation, the Krupp and Schichau designs proposed using water-tube boilers of the Schulz and Schichau systems instead of the Belleville boilers specified in the program.
              https://keu-ocr.narod.ru/Cruisers/chap06.html
              Quote: Victor Masyuk
              The Germans immediately offered an armored cruiser

              More like a semi-armored one)) But yes, they could have slapped together an armored one too.
              It would be best to use the "Prince Heinrich" model, but faster and with domestic 254mm guns.
              1. +1
                20 May 2026 18: 12
                Thank you very much! Where else can I read about this besides the link provided?
                1. +2
                  20 May 2026 19: 39
                  Quote: Victor Masyuk
                  Where can I read about this other than the link provided?

                  Colleague, go to the Wunderwaffe website and you'll be happy. There are tons of monographs, reference books, and journals covering many years. A little bit here and there, and you'll get a more or less coherent idea.
                  https://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/
                  1. +1
                    21 May 2026 05: 01
                    Thank you!!!!!! (Exclamation marks are necessary to reach the required number of characters for a comment) wink
    2. Alf
      +1
      19 May 2026 19: 43
      The hero participated very relatively, sitting on the stones...
      The Novik is less an armored cruiser and more of a large destroyer. It's no wonder she was nicknamed "the car cover."
    3. Alf
      +3
      19 May 2026 19: 46
      Quote: Victor Masyuk
      I haven't encountered a single negative review regarding the combat qualities of these German-built ships...

      I've heard a couple of reports that the Bogatyr had issues with its turret guns. Not in terms of quality, but in terms of the turret design. I can't say for sure; I just don't remember.
      1. 0
        20 May 2026 21: 22
        Not in terms of quality, but in terms of the design of the towers

        The turrets are Russian, MZ. I haven't heard of any mechanical problems, only the Black Sea Fleet crews complained about them in WWI.
        1. The difference in aiming and rate of fire from casemate/deck 6"
        2. They wanted 8" there.
        1. +1
          21 May 2026 11: 00
          That's true—but the difference in rate of fire wasn't critical in the Russian Navy; it became a problem when it came to organizing salvo fire. That's why the Black Sea Fleet sailors pointed this out.
          1. +2
            25 May 2026 13: 30
            Andrey, thank you for the new series... Wonderful???