Military Review

Mig-21 vs F-4 Phantom

122



In 1964, American President Lyndon Johnson, after convincing Congress that the North Vietnamese attacked American ships in the Gulf of Tonkin, received approval for the outbreak of the Vietnam War. The US military assumed that the power of the US Air Force would make it possible to deal with a recalcitrant country in a short time.

The war in the airspace of Vietnam became the largest after the air battles of the Second World War. The opposing sides used dozens of types of aircraft in it, but the main burden fell on two planes. The results of the fights between them became decisive in the air war. The Americans had such a heavy twin-engined McDonnell-Douglas F-4 Phantom double-engine fighter with a take-off weight of about 20 t, created in the 1958 year. By the start of the 1960, the Phantom had become one of the most famous American aircraft. F-4 Phantom had excellent flight performance, powerful on-board surveillance and sighting radar, as well as a unique weapon system.

MiG-21 (921-th SP)


The main rival of the F-4 was the Soviet front-line fighter MiG-21, also created in the 1958 year. In contrast to the “American”, the MiG-21 was created for operations over the front line, at a short distance from the home airfield. Therefore, it had a smaller flight range (about 1500 km), and its take-off weight was only 8 T. However, the maximum speed and practical ceiling of the MiG-21 was not inferior to the F-4.

The armament of the MiG-21 was significantly weaker than that of the “American” - two (later - four) medium-range P-3s air-to-air missiles with infrared homing, as well as one 23-mm or 30-mm gun .

For the first time, the F-4 Phantom met in a battle with the North Vietnamese 9 aircraft on April 1964. The Americans subsequently stated that in the 8 hours of the 40 minutes, the US Navy F-4B fighter from the Ranger aircraft carrier attacked four North Vietnamese MiG-17 aircraft. One of them was shot down with a Sparrow missile, but another MiG-17 went into the tail of the F-4B and opened fire on it from a cannon. As a result, pilot T. Murphy and cameraman R. Fagan died.

Subsequently, the air battles with the participation of F-4 and MiG-17 took place quite regularly, and the Americans behaved very carelessly at these meetings. However, this carelessness disappeared with the appearance in the sky of Vietnam of the Soviet MiG-21 fighters and the use of C-75 anti-aircraft missile systems.

Since the beginning of 1966, the main opponents of the F-4 were the supersonic MiG-21F-13 and MiG-21PF-V, equipped with missiles UR R-Zs with TGS or units with 55 mm unguided aviation missiles (NAR) S-5. The first battle involving the MiG-21 took place on April 23, 1966 and ended to no avail.

Vietnamese pilots rush to their aircraft to engage in battle with the approaching enemy


26 April F-4 fighters managed to bring down the first MiG-21, thereby opening an account in a duel that lasted more than two decades in many local conflicts.

From May to December 1966, the United States lost its 47 aircraft in air battles, destroying only 12 North Vietnamese fighters.

MiG-21 attacked the enemy, usually at supersonic speeds, performing a rocket launch from the rear hemisphere, and then quickly broke away from the pursuit. It was difficult for American pilots to oppose such tactics. Practiced and joint actions of the MiG-21 with the MiG-17.

The air battle that occurred on July 14 of the year 1966 and was described later by Captain B. Schwender was quite typical: “At the head of the F-4C link I flew out of Tahli airbase. The armament of my aircraft consisted of four Sparrow and four Sidewinder.

Refueling over Laos from the KS-135, we met up with a trio of “Thunder Chifs” who were going to the Plat Yen airfield (escorting these planes was our task). We descended and followed at a distance of 1000 - 1500 m from fighter-bombers.

Suddenly, the leader of the group “Thunder-Chifov” said that he was in danger (which one, I did not have time to disassemble). Having decided that we are talking about enemy anti-aircraft missiles, I was going to fly around the threatened area to the right. However, after turning to 180 degrees, the third plane of my flight said: “MiG, the direction of“ eight hours ”, is approaching us!” Turning quickly to the left, I looked over my shoulder and saw a rapidly diving MiG. Turning sharply to the right, I dropped the underwing tanks, preparing for the attack, but the enemy disappeared in dense clouds. Soon, in the direction of “two hours,” I saw the MiG-21 approaching the “Thunder-Chefam”.

Nguyen Van Kok (9 air victories, right) and Nguyen Doc Soat (6 air victories, left) listen to Pham Tan Ngan (center, 8 air victories) telling about one of his victories


I began a rapprochement with the enemy so that my operator D. Battel could conduct his capture of the radio sight. Soon he succeeded, I clicked on the trigger, letting Sparrow go, and at the same moment, out of the corner of my eye, noticed on the radar screen that the target mark disappeared. In a matter of moments, I switched the type weapons and again pressed the trigger, firing into the enemy Sidewinder, although the angle for the attack was unsuitable.

The rocket passed over the cabin of the MiG, not exploding. The Vietnamese pilot, having turned on the afterburner, abruptly went to the right and began to rapidly gain altitude. Soon it began to look like a bright luminous spot against a blue sky - an excellent target for rockets with a thermal head. Having launched the second Sidewinder, I gnashed my teeth out of anger, realizing that the rocket was going past the target, but then he took himself in hand and launched the third rocket. MiG, dodging rockets, was spinning in circles among the smoke plumes they left. I thought that we had missed again, but at that moment a huge fireball appeared on the site of the Vietnamese fighter ... "

It should be noted that the American pilots won a victory in this battle due to the fact that they constantly saw the North Vietnamese fighter, and he could not detect them in time due to poor visibility back from the cockpit of the MiG-21 PF.

In total, on the first stage of the air war from April 1965 to November 1968, 268 air battles took place in the sky of Vietnam, during which 244 American and 85 North Vietnamese aircraft were shot down. Of these, 46 battles occurred between the MiG-21 and F-4 - the result of these meetings was disappointing for the latter - the losses were 27 F-4 Phantom and 20 MiG-21.



To achieve superiority over the MiG-21 fighters, the Americans organized special retraining courses for Air Force pilots, where they practiced air battles with squadrons equipped with Nortrop F-5 fighters that played the role of MiG-21 aircraft. The same courses were organized for the pilots of naval aviation, where for five weeks intensive training of pilots took place in conditions as close as possible to the combat ones.

In June, 1971, the United States resumed raids on North Vietnam. A year later, having increased the size of their aircraft to 1000 airplanes, the Americans conducted a large-scale air operation "Linebayer-1", during which they struck 40 with powerful bomb strikes against North Vietnamese communications and airfields, which significantly weakened the combat capabilities of North Vietnamese aviation.

Fierce air battles between the F-4 and MiG-21 fighters flared up again. 16 On April, two North Vietnamese MiG-21 PFs were shot down in a battle with twelve F-4. 27 On April, the F-4 unit met with a pair of MiG-21 - as a result of the battle, one American plane was shot down. 6 May, the F-4 link entered into battle with the four MiG-21; despite six rockets fired at one of the MiGs, the North Vietnamese pilot, however, managed to dodge them. Unfortunately, the volley of three more American missiles still shot down the MiG-21, but the pilot managed to safely eject.



The culmination of the air war in the sky of Vietnam was 10 on May 1972, when North Vietnamese aviation conducted 15 air battles, shooting down seven F-4. In this case, the American pilots destroyed two MiG-21, two MiG-17 and one J-6. In one of the fights of this day, the MiG-17 unit performed the release of a neighboring airfield, knocking down one F-4. The second link pair began a maneuverable air combat with the F-4 four, losing one MiG-17 in it, but this allowed the MiG-21 pair to rise into the air from a blocked aerodrome and knock down a pair of F-4, using only two P-ES missiles.

The 11 in May, a pair of MiG-21, having played the role of "bait", led the four F-4 to two MiG-21 that were patrolling at low altitude. They unexpectedly attacked the F-4 and shot down two of them with three missiles.

June 13 link MiG-21 intercepted a group of fighter F-4 Phantom. A pair of MiGs wedged in the order of the Americans, causing panic among them: the pilots violated the system and began to maneuver randomly. At this time, the second pair of MiGs launched a rocket attack and shot down two F-4.

On May 18, North Vietnamese aviation conducted 26 combat missions and conducted eight air battles that cost the Americans four F-4 Phantom. North Vietnamese fighters suffered no casualties that day. During one of the fights, a pair of MiG-21 intercepted the F-4 link, while the leader attacked with a half-turn and the first missile shot down the F-4.

In the summer of 1972, the intensity of the air battles decreased, and air collisions became more episodic. 12 June, the F-4 Phantom link fought a pair of MiG-21, losing one machine. The next day, as a result of two fights, the Americans lost two more F-4.

According to American data, from June to September 1972 in air battles over North Vietnam, the US Air Force and Navy planes destroyed 17 North Vietnamese fighters, including 11 MiG-21, 4 MiG-17 and 2 J-6, having lost 11 F 4 Phantom - 9 belonged to the Air Force and 2 Navy. Interestingly, not the newest F-4E Phantom turned out to be more productive, but the older F-4D Phantom, at the expense of which nine victories were recorded in the air (seven over the MiG-21 and two over the J-6). F-4J shot down 1 MiG-21 and 4 MiG-17, and F-4E - 3 MiG-21. Sparrow missiles destroyed eight MiG-21, Sidewinder - three MiG-21, two J-6 and four MiG-17.



In the course of the “air offensive” undertaken by American aircraft in the spring and summer of 1972, by the fall, at the 360 combat theater, tactical fighters of the US Air Force and 96 fighters of the Navy (mostly F-4 Phantom of the latest modifications) were opposed by North America’s 187 fighters (MiG-17) , MiG-21 and J-6), but only 71 of them was combat-capable aircraft. Just 1972 year between US and North Vietnamese aircraft occurred 201 air battle, which resulted in lost 54 North Vietnamese fighters (including 36 MiG-21, one MiG-21US, 12 MiG-17 and five J-6) and 90 American cars (including the F-74 fighter 4 and two RF-4C reconnaissance aircraft). At the same time, the MiG-21 fighters destroyed 67 enemy planes, on the account of the MiG-17 and J-6 were, respectively, 11 and 12 enemy planes.

Calculations show that the confrontation between the MiG-21 and the F-4 Phantom in the sky of Vietnam ended with the defeat of the F-4 fighter during the fighting from 1966 to 1972, only the 54 of the MiG-21 fighter was shot down during the year, while the MiG-21 fighters 103 destroyed 4 F-4 Phantom. It should be noted that the F-21 cost American taxpayers in an amount several times higher than the cost of one MiG-4 (in comparable prices). At the same time, it should be noted that the F-4 Phantom aircraft had to solve uncharacteristic tasks in Vietnam: the heavy interceptor, created for the defense of attack aircraft carrier formations from raids of high-speed bombers and anti-ship cruise missiles, was used to gain air supremacy confrontation with a MiG-21 aircraft that is more suited to this role. Therefore, the defeat of the Americans is not due to the mistakes of the designers of the company McDonnell-Douglas, who managed to create an outstanding combat aircraft for their time, but the lack of a lightweight fighter for the United States for air combat, able to withstand MiG-21.

However, the F-4 strike aircraft as a tactical proved to be excellent. F-4 Phantom was widely used to strike bridges, power stations, and North Vietnamese rail transport. The planes continuously combed communications of the enemy, in places completely paralyzing movement during the daytime.

The experience of the Vietnam War had a tremendous impact on the military aircraft industry in both the United States and the USSR. The Americans reacted to the defeat in the air battles of the F-4 Phantom by creating highly mobile fourth generation fighters.
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  1. Denis_SF
    Denis_SF 21 May 2013 07: 07
    33
    I see a scarlet line in the sky
    This is the MiG-17 on the tail
    I see how Richard with Bob
    Rushed to meet the coffin
    My Phantom is losing altitude.
    1. Lee
      Lee 21 May 2013 12: 19
      12
      By the way, yes. In the first picture, it is the MiG-17.
      1. pinachet
        pinachet 21 May 2013 22: 06
        -3
        yes, I also wanted to say that in the first picture the 19th
        1. Lee
          Lee 22 May 2013 01: 56
          +1
          Quote: pinachet
          yes, I also wanted to say that in the first picture the 19th

          17-th!
        2. air wolf
          air wolf 1 November 2013 13: 10
          +1
          There the MiG-17 and, moreover, the very first modification without a radio sight, missiles, etc. In short, how did our pilots fight on such a junk?
      2. malkor
        malkor 23 May 2013 22: 57
        +2
        And the biggest war in the airspace after the Second World War was the war in Korea. There were thousands of downed somolets.
  2. Predator-74
    Predator-74 21 May 2013 07: 12
    22
    Yes, American aviation was battered then, even more disappointing data for US aviation - these are losses associated with air defense systems.
  3. mabuta
    mabuta 21 May 2013 07: 18
    +8
    Well done Vietnamese lads. But somehow it becomes uncomfortable with these numbers, on a cookie theater there are so many LAs and current numbers. At the same time, at that time, our borders were not bare.
    1. Avenger711
      Avenger711 21 May 2013 09: 47
      19
      The Americans announced and sowing. the Vietnamese truce (on the Tet holiday the battles there really turned off), and American and Vietnamese tanks meet during the truce. American shouts:
      - Give me a ride!
      “Settlement on ***,” the Vietnamese replies, then bends down into the hatch and asks, “Did I say melting?”
  4. RPG_
    RPG_ 21 May 2013 07: 49
    -4
    Yes, the Syrians will not be able to.
    1. Canep
      Canep 21 May 2013 08: 34
      14
      Syrians will fight for their homeland (if the amers climb). The Syrians have 62 Mig-29s and about 200 more older planes (fighters). If they behave tactically competently, they will be able to do the same.
      1. aksakal
        aksakal 21 May 2013 16: 01
        +5
        Quote: Canep
        The Syrians have 62 Mig-29

        - they would have to upgrade these 62 aircraft. After all, half of them are unlikely in flight condition, and half fly, but the equipment sad ... wants to do the best. They would have "Zhuk-A" there
        1. Geisenberg
          Geisenberg 21 May 2013 22: 12
          0
          Quote: aksakal
          but equipment sad ... wants to do the best. They would have "Zhuk-A" there


          Apparently it will reach them, but the S-300 will be delivered first.
      2. old man54
        old man54 21 May 2013 20: 42
        +5
        The Syrians would have the same resolute ally as the USSR, which was not afraid of the threats of the Western diplomatic tantrums, and not of today's Russia with its self-doubt leadership, then they would have shown them! :)
        1. Geisenberg
          Geisenberg 21 May 2013 22: 13
          +1
          Quote: old man54
          The Syrians would have the same resolute ally as the USSR, which was not afraid of the threats of the Western diplomatic tantrums, and not of today's Russia with its self-doubt leadership, then they would have shown them! :)


          Officially, the USSR did not participate in the Vietnam War, and the Russian Federation did not participate in the Syrian CTO either ...
          1. old man54
            old man54 21 May 2013 22: 48
            0
            Quote: Geisenberg
            Officially, the USSR did not participate in the Vietnam War, and the Russian Federation did not participate in the Syrian CTO either ...

            well, officially there are many who do not participate where, and now what? :)) They didn’t take part in the ground operation in Libya, they didn’t participate in the Afghan war of 1979/1988 either, and now, they don’t participate in Syria :)) so it's about the same as we did in Vietnamese, although I personally talked with the pilots about who "did not participate" there, but for some reason flew on "Mig" -s :))
          2. brelok
            brelok 22 May 2013 05: 23
            +2
            Quote: Geisenberg
            Officially, the USSR did not participate in the Vietnam War,

            Yeah! I haven’t participated in many places! Dad remembered Angola before his death in 66!
        2. Boa kaa
          Boa kaa 22 May 2013 00: 06
          +2
          Quote: old man54
          The Syrians would have the same resolute ally as the USSR, which was not afraid of the threats of the Western diplomatic tantrums, and not of today's Russia with its self-doubt leadership, then they would have shown them! :)

          The Russian Federation would have such an economy as the USSR (it amounted to 85% of the USA), and such aircraft as the USSR (5 million in number, Air and Navy, armada of tanks, 6 full-blooded airborne divisions, etc.) then the leadership would behave like the best years of the Union.
          So, "ce la vie!"
          1. old man54
            old man54 22 May 2013 16: 05
            +2
            Quote: BoA KAA

            The Russian Federation would have such an economy as the USSR (it amounted to 85% of the USA), and such aircraft as the USSR (5 million in number, Air and Navy, armada of tanks, 6 full-blooded airborne divisions, etc.) then the leadership would behave like the best years of the Union.
            So, "ce la vie!"

            and who was it, this army, and oazvali and demoralized for some 5/6 years, eh? Amers, or is it a Russian production? Or did she "crumble" herself? And here it is not only the quantity and quality of the army that matters, but also the "core" of those people who make up the country's leadership! Now there are only rags and goons!
      3. air wolf
        air wolf 1 November 2013 13: 13
        0
        And we must help!
  5. shinobi
    shinobi 21 May 2013 08: 10
    17
    In Vietnam, the Yankees faced a technically equal adversary in the air, and an ancient truth, like all wars, showed itself: soldiers are fighting, not their weapons. American strategists constantly make the same mistake, rely too much on technology. Adolf is also very much on it reckoned.
    1. Hudo
      Hudo 21 May 2013 10: 02
      14
      "These fools will be destroyed by their own technology. They think that the war can be won by bombing alone ..." (17 moments of spring)
    2. old man54
      old man54 21 May 2013 20: 44
      +5
      Quote: shinobi
      Adolf also relied on her very much.

      But about Adolf is not necessary! His soldiers were normal, ours were not much inferior in spirit! And this is not my bare opinion, but the words of veterans who passed the entire war on the front lines! The German - a serious soldier, was at least!
  6. Vladimirets
    Vladimirets 21 May 2013 08: 13
    +6
    "The Americans have responded to the defeat of the F-4 Phantom in aerial combat with highly maneuverable fourth-generation fighters."

    That's why amers F-16 and created and are now in no hurry to refuse.
    1. cth; fyn
      cth; fyn 21 May 2013 13: 36
      +5
      And they simply have nothing to refuse, because There is no alternative, or rather there is, but it is not suitable even for training flights. laughing
  7. Soldier
    Soldier 21 May 2013 08: 18
    13
    Calculations show that the confrontation between the MiG-21 and the F-4 Phantom in the sky of Vietnam ended in the defeat of the American machine: F-4 fighters managed to shoot down only 1966 MiG-1972 aircraft during the period of hostilities from 54 to 21, during which time the MiG-fighters 21 destroyed 103 F-4 Phantom. A well-known fact. But in the pro-American press, legends are still circulating about a TEN superiority in victories over MIGs.
    1. I think so
      I think so 21 May 2013 15: 34
      13
      I am also surprised by this attitude to their own history on the part of the Russian authorities. False tales about the "victories" of the Americans are constantly broadcasted by Russian (?) Television and the accompanying channels, and the victories of Soviet and Russian weapons are silent ... For example, I accidentally found out about the ratio of aircraft losses during the Korean War, so there we soaked p. And .n.d.s.s.o. in 1 to 30! And according to Discovery for MONTHS in prime time, they played a fake about 10 to 1 in favor of the psi.n.d.s.s. About the Vietnamese war, too, not gu-gu ... It’s just a shame to tear ourselves to gross a lot ... And when will the patriots in Russia finally take power?
    2. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 22 May 2013 00: 22
      +3
      Quote: Armeec
      .And in the pro-American press, legends are still walking about the almost tenfold superiority in victories over the MIGs.

      Striped psychologists do not eat their bread for nothing. They know for sure that a lot depends on the mood and morale. About this, and Napoleon, and Peter, and Bismarck, and Lenin spoke.
      Historical fact: AVU "Saratoga" during the Vietnam War lost 3 Skyhawks in one day. The morale of the air wing pilots dropped so much that the command was forced to return the aircraft carrier to Norfolk.
      So Napoleon was right when he said: "The wounds of the victors heal faster than those of the vanquished!"
    3. Avenger711
      Avenger711 1 November 2013 14: 19
      0
      But we will not discount mutual postscripts and propaganda?
  8. VohaAhov
    VohaAhov 21 May 2013 08: 39
    +8
    Quote: mabuta
    Well done Vietnamese lads. But somehow it becomes uncomfortable with these numbers, on a cookie theater there are so many LAs and current numbers. At the same time, at that time, our borders were not bare.

    In addition to the Vietnamese "lads", Soviet volunteers also fought there. And which of them is more well done, we need to figure it out.
    1. mabuta
      mabuta 21 May 2013 11: 42
      +9
      Yes ETOGES with a joke: .... yes hde well it’s seen, Schaub the Vietnamese lads gave up lol

      RS. Data from these battles may have prevented 3 MV.
    2. wecher75
      wecher75 24 May 2013 14: 14
      0
      All well done, pushed the aggressors by the least
  9. sys-1985
    sys-1985 21 May 2013 08: 45
    +6
    A soldier always plays (will play) a key role in any confrontation.
    1. Borat
      Borat 21 May 2013 09: 02
      +1
      Quote: sys-1985
      A soldier always plays (will play) a key role in any confrontation.



      Tactics, strategy and technical equipment are secondary?
    2. old man54
      old man54 21 May 2013 20: 48
      +1
      Quote: sys-1985
      A soldier always plays (will play) a key role in any confrontation.

      but the USA wants to unbalance this unequal ratio for itself and reduce all wars to wars of bisceller, robots and droids. And not because they pity their citizens, lies !, but because they understand that the car does not scare! They really don’t want to be with us, Russians in hand-to-hand combat!
      1. Professor
        Professor 21 May 2013 22: 33
        +1
        Quote: old man54
        bispelotnikov

        The same must be managed and in one word to make two mistakes. If the spelling of long words is difficult, replace the drones with a short synonym. fellow
        1. old man54
          old man54 21 May 2013 22: 54
          0
          If you decide already here, on the resource, to do spelling and spelling, here is another topic. A site for fans of spelling, poetry and prose writers elsewhere !!!
        2. Boa kaa
          Boa kaa 22 May 2013 00: 37
          +5
          Quote: Professor
          If spelling is difficult for long words

          Dear Professor! I don't know about Hebrew, but Russian belongs to the group of languages ​​that are difficult to learn. It is equally difficult in grammar and, especially, punctuation. As a consultant of the site, you could attribute the "minor flaws" of your colleague to its copyright: WRITE AS HIS WANTS. This is his right! The main thing is that the idea is clear. Otherwise, colleagues from the outskirts of the former Soviet Union (for fear of spelling mistakes) will never share their thoughts with us. Or maybe they are sharp, fresh and generally GENIUS. Sincerely. KAA.
          1. Professor
            Professor 22 May 2013 08: 45
            +2
            It is necessary to correctly write in the Great and Mighty Russian Language, and not as you please. Otherwise, we get to the spelling of Tajik illegal immigrants. If a bad student was in school, then let him use an automatic spell check on a computer.
            1. Boa kaa
              Boa kaa 22 May 2013 15: 01
              +4
              Professor!You also made a punctuation mistake in response to my comment, but this is no reason to blame you on the site, putting you in an awkward position.
              I'm about something else: in your remark you see a mockery of a colleague, and this, it seems to me, is an incorrect attitude to the interlocutor. Want to conduct a spelling lesson - please in PM!
              About Great and Mighty Russian Language I agree with you on 100%, but poking into the eyes of a less competent colleague with his flaw is not intelligent! Read your fellow countryman, the great Russian writer A.P. Chekhov and become kind.
              1. Professor
                Professor 22 May 2013 15: 53
                -4
                Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
                Professor! You also made a punctuation mistake in the answer to my remark, but this is not a reason to blame you on the site, putting you in an awkward position.

                What do you? How is it possible? Be sure to point it to me and I will fix it.

                Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
                but poking into the eyes of a less competent colleague with his flaw is not intelligent!

                This particular individual swears left and right and scolds everything "not Russian" without knowing the Russian language. You cannot pass by this in any way. Now he knows what a "drone" is. wink
                1. old man54
                  old man54 22 May 2013 16: 21
                  +1
                  Quote: Professor
                  This particular individual swears left and right and scolds everything "not Russian" without knowing the Russian language. You cannot pass by this in any way. Now he knows what a "drone" is. wink

                  Well, firstly, this individual does not scold everyone left and right, but calls the things and actions of people and their communities (by blood principle) by their proper names, the way they see them, without cursing their Soul and not cursing before anyone. The fact that such behavior often causes irritation and resentment in people who are dark in nature and intolerant of criticism has been known for a long time! Look, the Germans are not puffing their sponges offended when they have been "vilified" for 60 years and in the media in film distribution of all stripes, for which I respect them, the Germans very much today! And about the Jew and the words of criticism can not be said, and constructive criticism, just offense and howling on the topic of the Holocaust!
                  And not for you, "professor" (about the nickname, a question for Freud, for sure!), To teach me Russian literacy, if you don't even know the latest history of your Motherland, although it is only that years old. :) And the geography of those places is similar, too, but here we are the first to teach!
                  1. Professor
                    Professor 22 May 2013 16: 32
                    -2
                    the way they see him

                    Better now. You are making some progress. Only here the word "to see" must be written without a soft sign.
                    Regarding your nonsense about geography and recent history, I already poked your nose at the coordinates where the photograph of the Syrian T-62 was taken. You see, I can’t use the indicated latitude and longitude for myself. To teach you on this thread how to use them? laughing
                2. Boa kaa
                  Boa kaa 22 May 2013 16: 25
                  +4
                  Quote: Professor
                  Be sure to point it to me and I will fix it.

                  Exclusively at your request!
                  "If someone was bad at school, then let him use an automatic spell checker on a computer." This is a complex subordinate sentence. Therefore, it would be logical to put a comma after the word "at school". Or do you think differently?
                  However, I beg: do not breed the bazaar! If there is anything to argue on the merits, I ask in PM. But, to be honest, I'm not interested ...
                  And therefore, accept my sincere assurances of all respect to you. KAA. hi
    3. samoletil18
      samoletil18 24 January 2014 18: 36
      0
      Quote: sys-1985
      A soldier always plays (will play) a key role in any confrontation.

      An even greater role will be played by the factor of moral suppression, degeneration and decomposition of soldiers and the population. Not in vain, because the Internet created Americans so accessible to every home on the planet. Libya's example is the most eloquent. The highest standard of living in Africa did not become a factor guaranteeing the loyalty of the population and law enforcement agencies to preserve the state.
  10. apro
    apro 21 May 2013 08: 59
    +1
    Whatever it was, but on the whole, the amers still fulfilled their task and Vietnam died in the Stone Age by the end of the war, all small factories and factories were destroyed bridges and warehouses of fuel and lubricants. the number and quality of the Vietnamese’s aircraft were limited, and guerrilla methods caused damage to the Amer even with less casualties, but they couldn’t completely protect the country's sky, depriving exhausted amers in a futile war meant victory and Soviet-Chinese help. Mig-21 is a good machine but we were able to fully compare with the amers on aviation with the advent of the MiG-29 and Su-27 and new missiles. The stamina of the Vietnamese determined their victory.
    1. I think so
      I think so 21 May 2013 15: 40
      +1
      Do not talk nonsense ... Always the Americans ONLY caught up with Soviet aircraft in terms of combat characteristics. This is shown by losses during real wars, the Korean War - about 1 to 30 in favor of Soviet aircraft, the Vietnam War 1 to 3 in the same favor ... And here you are talking about the nonsense about "completely equalizing" ...
      1. Maitre
        Maitre 21 May 2013 17: 58
        -3
        Yes, where did you smoke such evil grass, Hans Christian Andersen?
      2. samoletil18
        samoletil18 24 January 2014 19: 00
        0
        Quote: I think so
        Americans have always ONLY caught up with Soviet aircraft in combat characteristics

        This is a very bold statement. In childhood (1970-80s), pilot officers lived in the neighboring quarter. And when the guys and I decided who to be, their daddy-pilots in favor of the military pilot profession said that ours had almost caught up with the Americans, and when we grow up, we would be on equal terms with them. The only thing they all emphasized was that our cars were stronger, are and will be.
        In some American (discovery or NG) in a program about military aircraft, some American pilot said that the best airplane in the world is a Russian glider with an American engine.
  11. Armavir
    Armavir 21 May 2013 09: 09
    19
    I watched a documentary film on this subject on discovery, they also showed American veterans of that war - they told me that they shot down in packs of Migi, flew for entertainment and brought data like more than 700 Migovs were shot down and their losses about 30 ... generally turned off this delirium and son forbade to watch this ...
    1. Standard Oil
      Standard Oil 21 May 2013 09: 34
      +5
      Well, Discovery is an American or English channel, what were you waiting for?
      1. hommer
        hommer 21 May 2013 10: 35
        14
        US Air Force Losses in Vietnam
        McDonnell-Douglas F-4 Phantom II
        - Air Force: 658 aircraft in 1965 — 1973 years
        - Navy: 138 aircraft in 1964 — 1973 years
        - ILC: 99 aircraft
        - Total: 895

        In general, all of all types - 3374 aircraft.

        North Vietnam Aviation Losses
        Mikoyan and Gurevich MiG-17
        - at least 68–71 aircraft (excluding non-combat losses)
        Shenyang F-6
        - at least 5-9 aircraft (excluding non-combat losses)
        Mikoyan and Gurevich MiG-21
        - at least 66-69 aircraft (excluding non-combat losses)

        Data www.vietnamnews.ru/skywar.html, Ilyin V.E. Phantom F-4. - M .: Astrel, AST, 2001. - S. 224. and http://www.afa.org/magazine/sept2004/0904vietnam.pdf

        Hello to the storytellers from Discovery!
        1. hommer
          hommer 21 May 2013 11: 08
          +5
          For example, in 1972, a total of 201 air battles took place between American and Vietnamese aircraft, resulting in the loss of 54 Vietnamese fighters (including 36 MiG-21s and one MiG-21US) and 90 American aircraft (including 74 F- fighters 4 and two RF-4C scouts. Thus, the MiG-21 destroyed b7 enemy aircraft).
        2. Boa kaa
          Boa kaa 22 May 2013 00: 51
          +2
          Quote: hommer
          In general, all of all types - 3374 aircraft.

          Great data! If possible, specify: how many of them are from air defense assets, and how many are from the DRV Air Force. And it would be very good to know: what contribution did the Soviet, Chinese and Vietnamese pilots make (individually) to the common piggy bank. If you have any, I would really appreciate it, because keenly interested in this problem.
          1. hommer
            hommer 22 May 2013 08: 02
            +2
            Dear Boa Kaa!

            Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
            If possible, specify: how many of them are from air defense assets, and how many are from the DRV Air Force.


            I am also interested in this topic, there is a scatter in the data by sources, but in general, it is recognized by everyone - the Phantom lost to Migu.
            In just eight years of the war, North Vietnamese fighters spent in
            a total of 480 air battles, shot down 350 enemy aircraft and lost 131 (2,3: 1 ratio). Moreover, it must be taken into account that this result was achieved with a six-fold numerical superiority of the enemy. During the period from 1966 to 1972, F-4 fighters managed to shoot down 54 MiG-21s, which in turn destroyed 103 Phantoms (given that the F-4 cost several times more than one MiG-21, then
            the result is more than positive). According to other sources (more reliable since it is difficult to separate the results of the battles precisely between the MiG-21 and the F-4), the victory ratio is 1,4: 1 in favor of the MiG-21. The American side announced 197 victories in the air.
            The latter was gained on January 12, 1973. when F-4J Lieutenant Victor Kowaleski shot down an MiG-17.
            Ironically, it was the F-4J Kowaleski who was also the last “Phantom” shot down in the sky of Vietnam two days later (the pilot and cameraman managed to escape). The last American aircraft shot down over Vietnam was the AC-119 fire support aircraft shot down on April 30, 1975. calculation of portable air defense system "Strela-2". MANPADS have been widely used since 1971. when they were armed with anti-aircraft gunners, covering the legendary "Ho Chi Minh trail" (over 120 "American and South Vietnamese were shot down over the" trail)
            helicopters).
            Good article at http://rocketpolk44.narod.ru/stran/vietnam.htm
            1. Boa kaa
              Boa kaa 22 May 2013 14: 39
              +2
              Askhat! Thank you so much for the data. They will replenish my archive. (By the way: AS is a pilot who has achieved 5 and more victories! HAT - in German - has, so forum users have a connoisseur) - JOKE!
    2. Black Colonel
      Black Colonel 21 May 2013 16: 22
      0
      So they believed them for ... I will! again to boost morale
      1. old man54
        old man54 21 May 2013 20: 55
        0
        Quote: Black Colonel
        So they believed them for ... I will! again to boost morale

        So the Amreams cannot be trusted at all! As an example: during the war in Korea, the Mig-15 unit commander, Russian (I don’t remember my last name), as part of the unit, attacked an Amerovo jet attack aircraft (a rare model, not a large party, look for anyone in the Wiki) who went below them in height and shot him down. Those. he has living witnesses only 3, but ... the American side did not and will not recognize the loss of these machines in general in that war! What else to say then? :))
    3. Maitre
      Maitre 21 May 2013 18: 00
      -3
      And rightly banned, why should a guy know the truth? All Russian-Soviet is the best, it is known to the whole progressive world ... :-))))
      1. tomket
        tomket 21 May 2013 22: 26
        0
        well, then you know best of all about the fighting qualities of the phantom shown in the 1973 year.
      2. vadson
        vadson 21 May 2013 22: 49
        0
        you are not a master you are 0sel
    4. datur
      datur 21 May 2013 20: 46
      +4
      So this is the usual practice of the West, the Jews (according to their version, these are not only God's chosen, but also invincible finally !!! wassat laughing) and Americans,
      PR always and everywhere, during the GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR, according to Yuzy Goebels, the Germans defeated all our troops 10-20 times !!!
      1. Maitre
        Maitre 21 May 2013 21: 39
        +1
        And ours, in the same way, according to the reports of the Sovinfo Bureau, German forces were grinded dozens of times, and after 43 years, any destroyed German tank was a Tiger or Panther, and any German self-propelled gun was Ferdinand
        1. Vadivak
          Vadivak 21 May 2013 21: 52
          +3
          Quote: Master
          and after 43 years, any destroyed German tank was a Tiger or Panther, and any German self-propelled gun is Ferdinand


          The Germans, too, only t-34 and IS-2 knocked out, T-40,60,70, XNUMX as it wasn’t, and in the Duftwaffe, as you write, the Andersons
        2. tomket
          tomket 21 May 2013 22: 27
          +1
          Well, both Hartman and the company destroyed more Soviet aircraft than the USSR was completely lost, including non-combat ones.
          1. old man54
            old man54 22 May 2013 16: 29
            0
            And who is Hartman?
            1. samoletil18
              samoletil18 24 January 2014 19: 12
              +1
              Quote: old man54
              And who is Hartman?

              German ass, attributed to himself 352 shot down Soviet aircraft. Well, maybe, by order of Goebbels, they attributed it to raise morale.
  12. Standard Oil
    Standard Oil 21 May 2013 09: 38
    +3
    Very interesting topic, many thanks to the authors.
  13. Avenger711
    Avenger711 21 May 2013 09: 53
    +3
    Ambush tactics generally imply a rather high kill rate, especially against strike groups to which fighters are tied, and are not able to pursue and impose a battle, but in general they do not solve the air defense problem.
    Typically, the amers do not have pilots and weapons operators claiming more than 5-6 frags, the Vietnamese have higher individual accounts, which is typical for the weaker side, where individual pilots from God have an excess of goals.
    1. I think so
      I think so 21 May 2013 15: 45
      -2
      It's a strange logic - the "weaker" side shot down more planes than the "strongest" and, in addition, won the war ... It seems to me that something in your reasoning is DAMAGE ...
      1. Avenger711
        Avenger711 21 May 2013 18: 20
        +4
        It’s not strange at all, if you have 200 planes versus 100, then your super-aces, of which the percentage is small in any Air Force, will not work. But the enemy several pilots from God will have someone to shoot down, and due to the skill out of the wildest troubles. Ambush tactics with a quick exit from the battle will still help this. The result may be, like the Finns in the Second World War. To hell with aces with high scores and at the same time the absence of any serious opposition to Soviet aviation.
        We also take into account that a fighter, even an inferior strike aircraft of its time, will fail. Did the Vietnamese have attack aircraft? There was no one "phantoms" to shoot down, except for a few MiGs. So the "phantoms" poured thousands of tons of bombs, MiGs attacked them from ambush. There would be several times more MiGs, they would have acted differently, would have tried to attack, having a numerical advantage on the strike groups and grind them. Maybe they would fall more often, but the execution of the task by "phantoms" would be thwarted more often.
  14. Anton Karpenko
    Anton Karpenko 21 May 2013 10: 26
    -5
    Soviet aircraft traditionally have better avionics than American ones.
    1. Black Colonel
      Black Colonel 21 May 2013 16: 25
      +1
      Disagree
    2. air wolf
      air wolf 1 November 2013 13: 22
      +1
      Our avionics is horrible, the only plus is to teach you how to use a monkey!
  15. The comment was deleted.
  16. Bongo
    Bongo 21 May 2013 10: 44
    +6
    "blocks with 55-mm unguided aircraft missiles" - it is annoying to read such bloopers.
  17. k220150
    k220150 21 May 2013 11: 01
    11
    Cosmonaut DRV Fam Tuan shot down a flying fortress on a MIG-21 machine. This is just one fact of the Vietnam War. Thoroughly patted the feathers of the gangsters.
    1. old man54
      old man54 21 May 2013 21: 02
      +1
      I read that the MiG-17 was repeatedly shot down from the "ambush" B-52 even! And in general, the Vietnamese had very few MiG-21s, but the MiG-17 was much more, and even more so the MiG-17 was more adapted for maneuverable air combat at altitudes up to 3/4 km, where basically everything was happening. And the MiG-21 was designed for maneuvering at high altitudes, and from here on the ground it was not as good as its older comrade!
      1. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 22 May 2013 02: 28
        +4
        Quote: old man54
        In general, the Vietnamese didn’t have a lot of MiG-21, but the MiG-17 was much more

        Organizational IA VNA consisted of from several regiments. The fighting was carried out mainly by 2 regiments of 30-35 aircraft in each. One regiment was a mixed composition (MiG-21 and MiG-17) of the second - of the same type: MiG-17. The combat use of the MiG-17 began in April 1965, and the MiG-21 began in March 1966. By December 1972 The IA of the Vietnamese air defense and air forces numbered 5 air regiments: the 3 regiment had 148 aircraft (170 trained pilots), the 1 training regiment was located in China, and one was engaged in transportation.
        The combat structure of the regiments. The first consisted of 77 MiG-21 of various modifications; the second is the 59 MiG-17 and the third is the Chinese-made MiG-17 ...
        Senior Military Advisor under the commander of the VNA Air Force was GSS major general aviation M.I. Fesenko. Our w / advisers taught honestly. As a result, already in 1968 IA VNA shot down 44 of Amer’s aircraft (of which 86% was the first attack), and in 1972g - 89 - all from the first attack! In December, the 1972 Fan Tuan on the MiG-21 missile with an infrared seeker shot down the first B-52. The B-52 was first used for raids on the DRV in January 1969.
        In total, during the war years IA Air Defense and Air Force VNA shot down 350 enemy planes, or 9,0% of the total number of air forces and air forces shot down in the skies of Vietnam.
        Own losses made up 145 fighters (MiG-17 - 75 units, MiG-19 - 5ed, MiG-21 - 65 vehicles), while 70 pilots died.
        Our guys died too: 30.04.71 - pilot instructor Captain Yu. Poyarkov; 23.03.73 - Instructor pilot Captain V. Mrykhin.
        Eternal memory to the heroes.
        (Source: A. Okorkov "Top Secret Wars of the USSR", EKSMO, M 2010)
        1. samoletil18
          samoletil18 24 January 2014 19: 24
          +1
          Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
          Our guys also died: 30.04.71/23.03.73/XNUMX - pilot instructor Captain Yu. Poyarkov; XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX - pilot instructor captain V. Mrykhin

          Everlasting memory.
  18. Forest
    Forest 21 May 2013 11: 04
    +5
    "However, the F-4 attack aircraft proved to be excellent in the tactical role. The F-4 Phantom were widely used for strikes against bridges, power plants and rail transport of the North Vietnamese" - in short, good only for strikes against peaceful targets.
  19. trenitron
    trenitron 21 May 2013 11: 05
    +2
    A very good article. MiG pilots used better maneuverability (especially horizontal), as well as better climb rates on verticals. Such tactics were used by Luftwaffe pilots in the initial stages of the Second World War. In turn, phantom pilots used the best thrust-weight ratio, the presence of a wider range of missile weapons + the best training for the flight crew of the US Air Force. Nevertheless, the Vietnamese pilots were able to withstand pilots 4 Reich
  20. Dima190579
    Dima190579 21 May 2013 11: 23
    +5
    Good pilots were prepared by the Soviet country.
    1. trenitron
      trenitron 21 May 2013 11: 27
      -3
      But our pilots did not take part in the Vietnam War
      1. Bongo
        Bongo 21 May 2013 11: 50
        +8
        They took them as instructors, even were shot down during training flights.
        Engaged in the same transportation on the military-technical cooperation and turntables.
        1. old man54
          old man54 21 May 2013 21: 06
          0
          Quote: Bongo
          They took them as instructors, even were shot down during training flights.
          Engaged in the same transportation on the military-technical cooperation and turntables.

          Well ... why should we believe that official information is so blind, huh? :)) They didn’t take it the same way as in the Korean War. :)) And they taught, and they themselves took part regularly, but this is not customary to talk about with us! There was even a separate MiG-23 naval aviation squadron that was deployed in Vietnam after the 70 year.
    2. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 22 May 2013 02: 38
      +3
      Quote: Dima190579
      Good pilots were prepared by the Soviet country.

      And not only pilots. In total, until 1995 year in our country 13,5 thousand Vietnamese troops were trained.
      Material costs USSR only for the supply of MBT amounted to 1 billion 579 million dollars. US, or 2 million dollars per day.
  21. Larus
    Larus 21 May 2013 11: 36
    +4
    Amer as usual attacked being in the numerical majority and then raked.
  22. pot-bellied
    pot-bellied 21 May 2013 11: 52
    +6
    and it’s only phantoms, thunderchiffs, they finally rained peas and after Vietnam the amers pushed them into the pantry without further ado.
  23. Maitre
    Maitre 21 May 2013 13: 32
    24 th
    Knowing the rashness of Russian-Soviet sources regarding the results of air battles in the Middle East, I strongly doubt the data provided in the article. Moreover, the Phantom is several levels higher than the 21st
    1. Tourist Breakfast
      Tourist Breakfast 21 May 2013 14: 06
      +8
      Moreover, the Phantom is several levels higher than the 21st


      These are generally different aircraft for different tasks. It is not correct to compare. Our MiG-21 niche was occupied by Mirages and Kfirs. By the way, the MiG-21 just showed itself well on the BV.
      1. Maitre
        Maitre 21 May 2013 14: 33
        -6
        What exactly did the 21st do well in the Middle East? Data to the studio !!!
        1. Fitter65
          Fitter65 21 May 2013 15: 44
          +1
          Arabs miscalculated everything in the sky. If so many vehicles were in Vietnam ... But then again, Israel lost planes not only in flight accidents and anti-aircraft missiles
          1. Maitre
            Maitre 21 May 2013 17: 25
            -2
            For all the years of Israel’s existence in air battles, about 20 planes were spiced. Major losses from fire from the ground
            1. old man54
              old man54 21 May 2013 21: 09
              0
              Oh, I doubt it, but the statistics today are false, even in general, so it's hard to argue! Apparently the statistics were developed by the Jews, eh, "master"? :)))
            2. tomket
              tomket 21 May 2013 22: 31
              +3
              why did you then get phantoms from America distilled at a fire pace and whipped up stars ???? Can it be that the loss of 20 aircraft has bent you so much ????
              1. Aaron Zawi
                Aaron Zawi 21 May 2013 22: 41
                +4
                Quote: tomket
                why did you then get phantoms from America distilled at a fire pace and whipped up stars ???? Can it be that the loss of 20 aircraft has bent you so much ????

                Of course not 20. During the October 1973 war, the IDF lost 102 vehicles over the battlefield and 8 were deemed inappropriate for repairs. But the bulk of the loss is air defense. It should be noted that the Egyptians created with the help of the USSR such a grouping along the Suez that its breakthrough cost our pilots huge losses.
                1. tomket
                  tomket 21 May 2013 22: 46
                  +1
                  Well Duc, why write that in the entire history of 20 aircraft, and most of them from air defense ??? and then they ask why Jews are considered liars.
                2. reichsmarshal
                  reichsmarshal 21 May 2013 23: 17
                  +1
                  The air defense of the Arabs consisted of 90% of the S-75 and S-125, which were deemed obsolete back in 1967. "Kvadrat" with its 7-km ceiling of destruction for jet aircraft - laughing chickens. There is no need for tales that the ubiquitous MOSSAD knew nothing about them. Shilki and Arrows - in the deserts - are not air defense, but targets. So do not whistle about air defense - it was extremely galimic. By the way, according to a number of Western sources (English-speaking), in 1973 Hel-Haavir lost 63 aircraft in air battles, another 48 aircraft were damaged, but repaired. This figure is all the more plausible because, taking into account the reliability coefficients, it corresponds to the claims of Syria (100 wins) and Egypt (94 wins): 1: 3-4. According to these estimates, the total combat losses of Hel-Haavir: approx. 140-150 planes (the difference of 30-40 cars is an emergency US delivery with American pilots of Jewish nationality and citizenship). And another 80-90 - losses from air defense.
                  Arabs' losses: 140-150 from fighters, ~ 50 from IDF air defense, another ~ 50 from its own air defense; and another 150-170 for non-combat reasons (Arabs, culture is still).
                  The tasks of the Air Force in the context of hostilities were accomplished by both parties to the extent possible. Victories were won not in heaven, but on earth (in part, due to direct betrayal of Anwar Saadat, according to statements by Egyptian generals).
                  1. Aaron Zawi
                    Aaron Zawi 22 May 2013 00: 17
                    0
                    Can I even answer your post will not. Laziness. If you are interested in this topic, find Oleg Granovsky on war online. Get a list with license plates and a list of dead pilots.
                    1. reichsmarshal
                      reichsmarshal 22 May 2013 01: 00
                      0
                      I am familiar with this list. There almost every time the reason for the loss of the car is not indicated. By the way, if that, EVERYTHING is underestimated by your losses! Israel is no exception. Well, except for Russia 90's.
                      1. Aaron Zawi
                        Aaron Zawi 22 May 2013 01: 14
                        +1
                        Quote: reichsmarshal
                        I am familiar with this list. There almost every time the reason for the loss of the car is not indicated. By the way, if that, EVERYTHING is underestimated by your losses! Israel is no exception. Well, except for Russia 90's.
                        in Israel it is impossible to conceal the loss of an airplane or the death of a soldier.
                      2. reichsmarshal
                        reichsmarshal 22 May 2013 01: 58
                        0
                        Do you yourself believe in such nonsense? Lol
                3. Do not care
                  Do not care 22 May 2013 18: 44
                  +2
                  << 90% of the air defense of the Arabs consisted of the S-75 and S-125, which were considered obsolete back in 1967 >>


                  "S-125" Neva "... Was adopted in the USSR in 1961" (wiki)

                  6 years old and already obsolete? This is not an iPhone.
                  1. reichsmarshal
                    reichsmarshal 22 May 2013 22: 17
                    0
                    S-125 was declared obsolete by 1967-1968. - neither in mobility, nor in efficiency he did not meet the requirements of the military. The idea of ​​a new medium-range complex to replace the 75th and 125th was put forward just then by A. Raspletin. By the way, an old man told me that the S-300 began mass deployment already in 1968-1969, and not in 1978, as it was officially said (secrecy!).
                    1. Do not care
                      Do not care 23 May 2013 08: 18
                      +1
                      "At 20:55 on March 27, 1999 in Yugoslavia, the Yugoslav air defense system S-125M" Pechora "with two 5В27 missiles shot down an American stealth aircraft F-117" (wiki)

                      S-125M (1970 modification) and 20 years later, perfectly coped with its tasks. And in 67/68, no one had any means against him. Of course, the military is always small, but in those days not a single country (including the USSR and the USA) possessed mobile air defense systems of this class. Comparison with the S-300 in my opinion is not correct because it is a different class and another generation.

                      In the wars of 67-73, Israel not only did not surpass, but inferior in the quality and quantity of military equipment, and won due to tactics and better training and stamina of soldiers.

                      In general, in my opinion, both the MIG-21 and S-125 at that time were the best in their class. It is a sin to complain about them. Went in the wrong hands.
                      I think that if Israel and the Arabs exchanged weapons, the result of the warriors would not have changed.
          2. reichsmarshal
            reichsmarshal 21 May 2013 22: 53
            0
            Goebbels detected! The Israeli report on the Yom Kippur War clearly states that more than 40% of the casualties are unclear! Where is the guarantee that it was not shot down by the MiG? 20 shot down - this is what could not be hidden from the press, and nothing more. In general, in the air forces of NATO countries and in Hel-Haavir, downed pilots are legally prohibited from talking about defeat in an air battle and ordered to blame everything on the air defense system. For disclosure - a tribunal, as for treason! (More than 80% of the downed "dead" IDF pilots are the work of Israel's "cleaners" special services). And that's okay, because the air force's reputation shouldn't suffer for the pilots' duty. The same tops - with ours in Georgia.
            And in Vietnam, the amers were thoroughly blown away, since they were objectively better in aerobatics, tactics, and technology, but they ALLOWED the Vietnamese to play by their rules and squeeze the most out of the equipment that was already considered obsolete in the Union itself.
      2. Tourist Breakfast
        Tourist Breakfast 21 May 2013 16: 17
        +6
        Does it ever occur to you that in this way you belittle the merits of Israeli pilots? In your opinion, it was not a war for them, but a pleasure walk.
        By the way, it was never customary for our pilots to speak disrespectfully of the enemy and his technique:

        http://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/duel.htm

        ..Pilot MiG goes into shaving flight. It goes lower than I have ever seen anyone fly. He has excellent eyesight and knows where and when to look. He clearly has the ability to maximize concentration; he has a clear head and clear movements. He acts unmistakably. I’m starting to understand that we finally met with a real enemy and this battle will not be as usual. I saw that the Syrian rejects all existing rules - rules for pilots who are not as good as he is, and for situations not as desperate as this ....
        1. Maitre
          Maitre 21 May 2013 17: 23
          -4
          I want to say that the Egyptian F-16s and Saudi F-15s bother me a lot more than the Syrian MIG-29s
          1. Regis
            Regis 21 May 2013 18: 54
            +2
            Strange logic.
          2. tomket
            tomket 21 May 2013 22: 34
            +1
            and the Saudi eurofighters do not make you horrified?)))))
        2. Vadivak
          Vadivak 21 May 2013 22: 04
          +5
          Quote: Tourist's Breakfast
          By the way, it was never customary for our pilots to speak disrespectfully of the enemy and his technique:

          Well, let's say without rudeness that's for sure
          Air Force Chief Moti Hod - Russian pilots are well prepared for action in European weather conditions with frequent cloud cover and rain. But even in completely different climatic conditions of the Mediterranean, they continue to apply the same tactics without the slightest change. Soviet pilots have good aerobatics and are aggressive. But their actions are orthodox and predictable. And most importantly, they do not have real combat experience. This is our biggest trump card in any confrontation with Russian MiGs.


        3. tomket
          tomket 21 May 2013 22: 33
          0
          Well, right, if the enemy is your equal then why not recognize it? By the way, the question is, the article described the case of the MiG-21 ambush, which lured phantoms to the blow of the second pair of MiGs. according to the description, one in one reception of Israeli pilots, who first began to practice this reception, we or you ?????
  24. vyatom
    vyatom 21 May 2013 14: 16
    +4
    Jews fly on f-16, and therefore praise. And the Israeli media, which instill false illusions in their populations, is plaguing.
    1. Maitre
      Maitre 21 May 2013 14: 36
      -3
      In fact, the Phantom is the F-4, and the F-16 is not clear ...
      1. Fitter65
        Fitter65 21 May 2013 15: 51
        0
        Not knowing both the aircraft performance characteristics and their names does not prevent "Specialists" and "experts" from being "in the subject"!
  25. Oleg Rosskiyy
    Oleg Rosskiyy 21 May 2013 15: 36
    +2
    Quote: Master
    Moreover, the Phantom is several levels higher than the 21st

    The higher you fly, the more painful it is to fall, and you may not believe the facts given, this is your personal business, but you still concluded a contract with Vietnam.
  26. ultra
    ultra 21 May 2013 15: 46
    +3
    Quote: Master
    strongly doubt the data given in the article

    Well that you will doubt We DO NOT DOUBT! hi
  27. Fitter65
    Fitter65 21 May 2013 15: 56
    0
    Moreover, in Israel, the Phantom was used in a different guise, in contrast to Vietnam. Well, about the temperament, the question is another one who laughed more often and louder. Let's talk about aviation, and not about media .
  28. tomket
    tomket 21 May 2013 22: 28
    0
    the fact that they put a second pilot in it ???
  • Kovrovsky
    Kovrovsky 21 May 2013 13: 54
    +2
    Quote: Master
    Knowing the rashness of Russian-Soviet sources regarding the results of air battles in the Middle East, I strongly doubt the data provided in the article. Moreover, the Phantom is several levels higher than the 21st

    It was much louder for him (Phantom) to fall from that "high level"!
  • Kovrovsky
    Kovrovsky 21 May 2013 14: 27
    +6
    I read that Vietnamese pilots sometimes lost consciousness due to overloads during maneuverable air battles due to malnutrition and weight loss, but were able to wipe their nose with a fat Yankees. Well done, Vietnamese!
    1. Black Colonel
      Black Colonel 21 May 2013 16: 59
      +2
      I also heard this, only this is with the MiG-21 pilots, because overloads were higher than on other planes
  • Fitter65
    Fitter65 21 May 2013 15: 33
    0
    Well, the fact that the MiG-17f saver also surprised me, given that they write about the 21st. So in Vietnam, the MiG-21mu was not a bad advertisement, even Americans admit this fact, they claim that they shot down 87 twenty-first. 4 MiG-21s shot down F-8,2-arrows of B-52, the rest shot down F-4s. Fire of guns shot down 12 MiG-21s, guided by missiles 75. The Americans admit that they lost 21 F-42s in battles with MiG-4,16s, 105 F-66 and one each of EB-102, F-53, HH-5, RA-XNUMXc.
    The Vietnamese claim that they won 21 victories on the MiG-93. 90 on their own and 3 together with the MiG-17. At the same time, they shot down 44 F-4,24F-105,4AQM-34, 3 each EB-66c, B-52. 2 F-8 and RF-101c, 1 A-4, F-102, RA-5c and HH-53, as well as 7 machines of an unknown type. Moreover, Wienham had, in different periods, MiG-21 of various modifications, from F-13 to MiG-21PFM, at the same time there were a maximum of 77 aircraft (but not all were ready) Missiles from the RS-2US were used, 14 launches to no avail. The rest of the R-3s, about cannon weapons there were no confirmed victories.
  • Old skeptic
    Old skeptic 21 May 2013 16: 01
    +3
    The downed American pilot got to his destination.
    Interrogations began, as the battle went on who brought him down.
    The pilot replies that he was shot down by a Vietnamese.
    Dan is what a Vietnamese, they do not have normal pilots, unreliable colleagues.
    “I heard it myself,” the American swears.
    "Wan dive, I'm kuinu".
    This kuinu knocked me down. recourse
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  • Black
    Black 21 May 2013 17: 49
    +1
    June 13 link MiG-21 intercepted a group of fighter F-4 Phantom. A pair of MiGs wedged in the order of the Americans, causing panic among them: the pilots violated the system and began to maneuver randomly. At this time, the second pair of MiGs launched a rocket attack and shot down two F-4.

    I am tormented by doubts .... in the slanting of the pilots' eyes.
  • slaventi
    slaventi 21 May 2013 17: 51
    +7

    Underestimating their losses and overestimating the losses of the enemy, this is common for Americans. It can be shown on the example of the Korean War 1950-53 years. Another approximately in the middle of 90x, the court historian Volkogonov spoke about recently declassified documents about our pilots who fought in the skies of Korea. It was shown a film where our pilots shot down 1300 planes, losing only 345, and these were experienced pilots who went through the war. It should be borne in mind that Yeltsin was an openly treacherous regime at that time, and the liberal media openly were the mouthpiece of American propaganda s.
    In an effort to somehow save the honor of the uniform and the pretty shaky prestige of the US Air Force, the Americans published data on their losses and the alleged losses of enemy aircraft in the war in Korea. An article on this subject notes: “According to rough estimates, the U.S. Air Force lost about 2000 aircraft during the Korean War (in addition, Navy and Marine Corps aircraft lost more than 1200 aircraft), and the loss of ground forces amounted to several hundred light aircraft. Less than half of these total losses were incurred directly during the hostilities, the remaining aircraft were decommissioned due to material defects, accidents and other causes. ”
    According to American data, their non-combat losses amounted to 1800 aircraft.
    Our pilots had occasion to fly on the American Kittyhawk and King Cobra fighters. These were reliable aircraft, which were mastered quite quickly even by intermediate-level pilots. Jet vehicles were easier to pilot and had much better flight and navigation equipment. Flights on them were carried out not from field, hastily prepared sites, but from well-equipped runways of airdromes equipped with driven radio stations, radars, direction finders and integrated landing systems .. If you even assume that OVA aircraft lost twice as much as Soviet, then Our total non-combat losses did not exceed 30 aircraft.
    All very simply Americans brought their combat losses as non-combat.
    America is a lying totalitarian state that creates a myth about itself as an invincible power.
    1. Maitre
      Maitre 21 May 2013 18: 04
      -6
      I enjoy this site and forum. Rare copies of the military-political bison of the 1975 model have been preserved
      1. Oleg Rosskiyy
        Oleg Rosskiyy 21 May 2013 21: 26
        +1
        Quote: Master
        I enjoy this site and forum.

        Let your hands rest, and go wash yourself.
  • skif1804
    skif1804 21 May 2013 18: 18
    +2
    The main problem of the American statistics of the downed MiG-21s in Vietnam is that North Vietnam had so many planes. laughing
  • Regis
    Regis 21 May 2013 18: 58
    0
    Quote: Master
    Knowing the rashness of Russian-Soviet sources regarding the results of air battles in the Middle East, I strongly doubt the data provided in the article. Moreover, the Phantom is several levels higher than the 21st

    If you doubt the data given in the article, give yours, preferably with links. What is the problem?
  • Boricello
    Boricello 21 May 2013 19: 11
    +8
    Mr. "Master" and others like him gentlemen from the Promised Land. Your komenty and hurray patriotism have already set the teeth on edge. I understand perfectly well that your task is to annoy the public on the site and enjoy the srach that starts here in your address. I respect the Israeli army and their equipment. But you behave like a child whose mother had fairy tales in childhood and he still believes in them. You are like the Russian liberals who respect only their opinion and all others to them with ... t. Why do you think that what Russian journalists, military and experts say is entirely a lie and a provocation, but you or amers is the ultimate truth? You remind me now of our cheers of patriots who are ready to shower everyone with hats. And the Syrian army is not afraid of you and there are no worthy opponents around you, and Tsakhal is that golden army as invincible and legendary in the film. There are no invincible armies. All when that happens 1 time. And the Syrian army has also learned something in a couple of years of war with those fanatics. Don't write it off. This is not for you to drive Arabs through the streets. I agree that the Tsakhal is better armed and better prepared. But God forbid you to get there. Wash yourself with a bloodbath to your very mother. I'm tired of listening to your bravura melodies. Sadly, Israel began to resemble Hitler's Germany. And they, too, considered themselves invincible. Don't wake up smartly while it's quiet.
    1. old man54
      old man54 21 May 2013 21: 25
      0
      Quote: Boricello
      It is not regrettable, but Israel began to resemble Hitler Germany. And they, too, considered themselves invincible. Do not be dashing while it is quiet.

      Very competent and sensible comment !!! "+" definitely !!
      I have noticed and realized long ago that despite all their, Jews, screams about their genocide during the 2nd WW by the Germans, they, oddly enough, behave the same way as the Nazis, starting probably from the 63rd year! Yes, while concentration camps on the German model are not yet being built, but that's why they are Jews, so that they can be sophisticated in everything! And their state policy is pure fascism today! I was there, in Judea, more than once, and even our former, who went there for permanent residence, are already choking on their poisonous saliva, shouting "Arabs are cattle, they must be cut and crushed like" dirt "" and the like! I was shocked to be honest!
      1. Aaron Zawi
        Aaron Zawi 21 May 2013 21: 28
        +2
        To be honest to be lazy. Well, you cheated on us. To health. But what did you do with us, such vile ones?
        1. old man54
          old man54 22 May 2013 16: 39
          0
          And you can not swear, Aron, but just try to explain, or prove with examples that it’s not so that they say this nasty, vile old man is lying54 everything! I’d like to discuss with you, you, of all your compatriots noticed here, are perhaps the most balanced and not odious that impresses me. And I did not scold anyone, but expressed my opinion! Swearing obscenities, and the opinion, even if it is not pleasant, but honestly, you must be able to listen, I think so. :)
  • Aaron Zawi
    Aaron Zawi 21 May 2013 19: 15
    +2
    Climb into Syria? Yes, I myself will bite Netanyahu if he does such stupidity. I fully support the attacks of missiles intended by Hiz-le, even if it is on Syrian territory. Sorry for the unpleasant truth. But to get into the Syrian meat grinder, but there are no such suicides among Israeli politicians.
    1. vadson
      vadson 21 May 2013 23: 00
      +1
      Well, and we for a strike at Israeli airfields from which strikes against Syria on far-fetched occasions are also a preventive measure, don’t you?
      1. tomket
        tomket 21 May 2013 23: 16
        +1
        announce the sparrows living at the base with an extremely aggressive species of fauna, which is clearly plotting something against world peace, and deliver systematic attacks)))))
  • Boricello
    Boricello 21 May 2013 19: 27
    +1
    I do not wish evil Assad. But you will completely collapse into the reverse those berries that were sown by helping weapons to those fanatics in Syria. If they win, then the Assad regime will seem to you a kindergarten. With all your dislike for Assad, you should in the current situation help him and not drown. The enemy of my enemy ..... my friend (albeit for a while). And if in Syria these allahakbar take power .... tady oh, you will be in the first turn.
    1. Aaron Zawi
      Aaron Zawi 21 May 2013 19: 32
      +5
      Believe it or not, Israel is not helping the rebels with weapons. It was written a thousand times on this topic, a thousand arguments were given, but here it already went "I believe / don't believe." And faith does not accept arguments. So it's your right to think what you deem necessary.
      1. tomket
        tomket 21 May 2013 22: 53
        0
        and was your weapon in Georgia?
        1. Aaron Zawi
          Aaron Zawi 22 May 2013 00: 20
          0
          Quote: tomket
          and was your weapon in Georgia?

          Please tell me, is it really difficult to go to Google and ask for the topic "Arms purchases by Georgia before the war."
          1. tomket
            tomket 22 May 2013 00: 43
            0
            so download, and you will begin to deny everything)))))
  • Boricello
    Boricello 21 May 2013 19: 40
    -2
    Do not support weapons, supported by political steps.
  • Aaron Zawi
    Aaron Zawi 21 May 2013 19: 47
    +1
    Israel does not have political influence in the Arab world. Israel is still a very small state.
  • Boricello
    Boricello 21 May 2013 19: 56
    +2
    Oh, is it? Israel is one of the main players, and if you also take your "ally", then probably one of the first. In general, having such allies and enemies is not necessary. =) Amer Israel planted such a bastard with all these Arab revolutions. And what they are doing in Syria in company with Turkey and Great Britain ... this is a bomb placed under you. If idiotic Yankees think that they can keep in their fist that uneducated fanatical, then they are already dull in the end.
    1. tomket
      tomket 21 May 2013 22: 56
      +1
      There is an opinion that the United States since the 90 of the 1920s has been just a puppet in the hands of Israel in the Middle East, the goal of all revolutions is to blow up and destroy the Arab world and actually remain the only force in this region. Syria is the last played card, which the USA has already played especially and they don’t want, now Nitanyahu rushes about to Washington, then back.
    2. vadson
      vadson 21 May 2013 23: 09
      +1
      everything is right, Israel itself cannot directly influence Qatar and the Saudis, those people will lose their face in the Arab world. therefore, in the United States, they press on the condom, since he is a puppet, and he is already a Jewish creative, along with the green street, is popping Europe and Arabs, he does not want to climb. Well, Syria interferes with the Qatari gas - the war in Syria, well, Iran trades oil for gold, and they get to it. so that all this energy crap is sold on the exchange, and there the Jews with their percentage of each transaction. .. mmm. mom mia
  • bublic82009
    bublic82009 21 May 2013 22: 23
    0
    as this plot showed, the main thing is not the technique but the skill of the pilot.
  • tomket
    tomket 21 May 2013 22: 42
    0
    "Phantom" at the beginning of his career was dubbed - twice ugly (the normal word was blocked)))). The combat pilots considered him fat-assed.
    By the way, the phantoms took up tasks that were unusual for them due to the constant problems of the United States with attack aircraft, In particular, the patrimonial disease of the Navy strike aircraft was either insufficient range or insufficient thrust-to-weight ratio of the engines (dropped bombs, but there is not enough thrust for a quick exit from the air defense shelling zone, that's fun) ))). It was the failure of the Phantom in Vietnam as a fighter that initiated the development of 4th generation aircraft. However, innovation will still attract us here. In fact, the concept of a highly maneuverable aircraft was laid down and embodied in the MiG-21 bis, the production of which was started in 1972. So the Americans at this stage were in the role of catch-up. ours have shifted priorities towards expanding the range of tasks for the fighter.
  • old man54
    old man54 21 May 2013 23: 30
    0
    The article is very interesting, with an attempt to analyze. Definitely "+"! Statistics in the wars of the last century are "dead" and hopeless! In many respects, the "power" of the West and its ideology are based on the assertion of the superiority of their political, economic and technical might over all others. Proceeding from this, he categorically, even according to statistics after the end of the database, does not want to officially admit that he was defeated, especially from a third world country! so that ...
    Regarding the F-4 HX, I personally heard something else: an airplane with very complicated aerodynamics, designed to intercept missile carriers and anti-ship missiles during their AUG attack. Poor aerodynamics were largely compensated by the thrust-weight ratio, a record for those times and certainly advanced, but difficult to control onboard radar and a wide range of B-B missiles. Therefore, they often lost a pure maneuverable battle to the 21, given the fact that a well-trained pilot sat in the MiG, and even the MiG-17, which had better handling at low altitudes than the 21, but less rigidity!
  • Prosto vovochka
    Prosto vovochka 21 May 2013 23: 37
    -1
    What a pain, what a pain, Israel-USSR 5-0. In the Internet there is a little about this fight. June 70th. Read. Interesting. Although to me, as a former fighter in a past life, it hurts. Jews can not only hang noodles on their ears, but also fight. Respect to the Jews of Israel, the entire Arab world was put on the ground and have it in all the cracks.
    1. old man54
      old man54 22 May 2013 17: 06
      +1
      Quote: Prosto Vovochka
      What a pain, what a pain, Israel-USSR 5-0. In the Internet there is a little about this fight. June 70. Read. Interesting. Although to me, as a former fighter in a past life, it hurts.

      You know, read it! It was a little sad and insulting, but ... as they already said here, it was a planned operation, and not least for raising the spirits of IDF pilots. Amer also performed the same in Wetnam when they put colonel aces in F-4 with great military experience and drove both MiG-17 and MiG-21 Vietnamese, I don’t know who was piloting them then. And they did it to raise the spirit of their pilots, because they began to leave the Air Force.
      And in that July operation 1970 over the Sinai there was no F-4, there the main Mirages also involved EW aircraft. And then, unfortunately, they paid little attention to maneuver combat in the training of our pilots, they themselves should know this as a pilot, and the interception of a target for guidance from a ground command post was worked out more. the threat of a massive atomic bombing of the USSR did not go anywhere then, and the air defense was not yet what it became after 1980.
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  • Fofan
    Fofan 22 May 2013 00: 06
    +1
    Quote: apro
    Whatever it was, but on the whole, the amers still fulfilled their task and Vietnam died in the Stone Age by the end of the war, all small factories and factories were destroyed bridges and warehouses of fuel and lubricants. the number and quality of the Vietnamese’s aircraft were limited, and guerrilla methods caused damage to the Amer even with less casualties, but they couldn’t completely protect the country's sky, depriving exhausted amers in a futile war meant victory and Soviet-Chinese help. Mig-21 is a good machine but we were able to fully compare with the amers on aviation with the advent of the MiG-29 and Su-27 and new missiles. The stamina of the Vietnamese determined their victory.

    still not bombed ... for your information, the Vietnamese did not have the opportunity to destroy infrastructure and destroy the "civilian population" of the United States.
    1. tomket
      tomket 22 May 2013 00: 53
      +1
      modification of the Indian 21x unpleasantly surprised by the training crews f-15
  • Fofan
    Fofan 22 May 2013 00: 13
    0
    Quote: Prosto Vovochka
    What a pain, what a pain, Israel-USSR 5-0. In the Internet there is a little about this fight. June 70th. Read. Interesting. Although to me, as a former fighter in a past life, it hurts. Jews can not only hang noodles on their ears, but also fight. Respect to the Jews of Israel, the entire Arab world was put on the ground and have it in all the cracks.

    there used to be someone to put! the whole Arab world is on show! after the very first paws up and "brother! did not recognize chibya!"
  • cesar65
    cesar65 22 May 2013 00: 36
    +1
    [quote = old man54] read that the MiG-17 repeatedly shot down the B-52 from an ambush! B-52 MiG-17 only shoot down, weapons: 2x23 mm 1x37 mm guns, which aircraft can withstand such a volley.
  • Gentile
    Gentile 22 May 2013 02: 54
    0
    Vova, do not mock the dead. July 30, 1970 was a well-planned operation, two pilots died.
    Not knowing what you were exterminating, but to pilots with combat experience the word Interesting will cut the rumor.
    I remember a friend who flew in the 80s for an instant-25pds, guarded the southern borders of our homeland.
    I spoke of two reluctant Turkish planes and sorties to Afghanistan with great reluctance and I did not see the joy of victory in his eyes.
    It is said quite clearly that the F-4 and Mig-21 are different in class cars.
    In Vietnam, in general, they coped with the task; in Egypt, they failed. The Egyptians fight no better than sheep, and ours were not ready for losses.
  • Boa kaa
    Boa kaa 22 May 2013 03: 52
    +3
    Quote: old man54
    The article is very interesting, with an attempt to conduct an analysis.

    And the author succeeded to a certain extent. Little expanding the scope of the topic, I would like to dwell on the role of our military advisers, who managed to organize DRV air defense in such a way that even a carefully planned air attack ( Operation Linebecker-2)Americans with the aim of "winning in the shortest possible time absolute supremacy in the airspace of the DRV" did not bring the desired results.
    The operation was carried out in the 2 stage: 18-24 and 26-30 December 1972 years.
    For its implementation were involved: 83 strategic bomber B-52, 36 latest I-B with variable sweep of the wing and the ability to fly at low altitudes with enveloping terrain F-111, 54 carrier-based attack aircraft A-7D. The US Air Force command developed new tactics, used the latest missiles and guided bombs, and organized raids day and night. So, B-52 made 724, attack aircraft - more than 640 sorties, dropping about 20 000 tons of bombs. In addition, 1384 aircraft took off for cover and support, and the suppression of the radar.
    Vietnamese survived under massive air strikes and managed to inflict tangible damage on the Americans. In 12 days of the database, 81 enemy aircraft were shot down, including 34 (!) B-52 strategic bomber, 3 F-111.
    The participation of IA VNA. Fighters shot down 7 aircraft, including 2 B-52. (ZRV - 54ed, of which 31 B-52; FOR - 20ed, of which 1 B-52 and 3 F-111).
    In total, during the war, the Americans lost: 8612 units of aircraft.
    Of these: 3720 aircraft and 4892 helicopters (according to other sources, 3744 s-ta and 4868 v-ta), while in the sky of the DRV - 1095 s-ta and 11 v-tov.
    (source: V. Zolotarev. "Russia (USSR) in local wars ..." M., 2000,
    1. old man54
      old man54 22 May 2013 17: 19
      +1
      Quote: BoA KAA
      In total, during the war, the Americans lost: 8612 units of aircraft.
      Of these: 3720 aircraft and 4892 helicopters (according to other sources, 3744 s-ta and 4868 v-ta), while in the sky of the DRV - 1095 s-ta and 11 v-tov.
      (source: V. Zolotarev. "Russia (USSR) in local wars ..." M., 2000,

      Thank you for such detailed statistics! You "+" from me! :)) But ... with all due respect to Zolotarev and Soviet data in general, the statistics of the results of air battles can be completely trusted only after everyone who participated in the database has opened their data, and the results are verified! This is a theory, but in life, such as amers hide and falsify everything in order not to drop the prestige of their go-va, tk. have far-reaching strategic plans for the world state! I do not want to say that ours deliberately "godlessly" overestimated their results, no, but during the battle it often happens, during the Second World War, including that the pilot thought that he had shot down, but it turned out that he did not. This is a mistake, and today it is almost impossible to exclude them from statistics for the reasons listed above.
  • rodevaan
    rodevaan 22 May 2013 05: 26
    +1
    By the way, something at the pin-dosyatiny somehow I did not meet at all laudatory odes about the air war in Vietnam!
    It’s easy to guess why :)