The Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Empire. The Bizerte Tragedy

Russian destroyers in Bizerte

The last great tragedy of the Black Sea fleet The Russian Empire suffered a blow from the White Guard squadron's departure to Constantinople in November 1920, followed by its inglorious transfer to Tunisia—to the French harbor of Bizerte. This is what we'll discuss in today's article.

The First Act of the Black Sea Fleet Tragedy

On April 28, 1918, the German command announced the liquidation of the Central Rada of the Ukrainian People's Republic. The following day, with German support, Tsarist General P. Skoropadsky declared himself "All-Ukrainian Hetman." German and Ukrainian troops entered Crimea, and the Black Sea Fleet's ships were under threat of capture by the Germans. In an attempt to preserve the fleet, Vice-Admiral M. Sablin ordered the flags of the "Ukrainian State" to be raised on April 29. However, the crews of several destroyers refused and withdrew their ships to Novorossiysk. However, Sablin soon realized that the Germans had absolutely no regard for the caricatured hetman, and on April 30, he ordered all other ships to leave Sevastopol. The destroyer Gnevnyy ran aground in the process. The battleships Volya (before the revolution – Emperor Alexander III) and Svobodnaya Rossiya (formerly Ekaterina Velikaya) also managed to escape, the latter of which received minor damage from German gunfire.

Battleship "Svobodnaya Rossiya"

An attempt was made to scuttle the remaining ships, but only the destroyer Zavetny succeeded. Nevertheless, two battleships (Svobodnaya Rossiya and Volya), destroyers, transport and auxiliary vessels, and a tanker finally arrived in Novorossiysk, which was under the control of the Kuban-Black Sea Soviet Republic (the capital was in Yekaterinodar). And on the night of May 1, 1918, two Turkish cruisers approached Sevastopol: the battleship Yavuz Sultan Selim (formerly the German Goeben) and the light cruiser Gamidiye. Soon, German flags were raised on the Russian ships, and the cruiser Prut (formerly an Ottoman ship) was towed to Constantinople.

The situation worsened: the Germans occupied Rostov-on-Don and Kerch, and in early June, Trotsky's telegram arrived in Novorossiysk demanding the scuttling of the ships stationed there. Sablin went to Moscow for negotiations, and Captain First Rank Tikhmenev, whom he had left behind, received two more telegrams: the first ordered the ships to be withdrawn to Sevastopol and handed over to the Germans; the second, encrypted, ordered their scuttling. For his part, the chairman of the Kuban-Black Sea Republic, A. Rubin, demanded that the central government's decision to scuttle the ships be disregarded and promised to assume responsibility for supplying the fleet and allocating ground forces for the city's defense. However, the republic's representatives soon left Novorossiysk, and these promises were not fulfilled.

Left in charge, Tikhmenev informed the crews of the two telegrams from the central authorities, and the sailors debated the fate of their ships for several days. At the vote on June 14, 939 sailors voted to return to Sevastopol, 640 wanted to scuttle the ships, and about 1000 abstained. On the Volya, 360 voted for returning to Sevastopol, 140 against; on the Svobodnaya Rossiya, the votes were almost evenly split: 350 for returning, 340 for sinking. The majority of officers favored returning to Sevastopol, but some declared the decision shameful and demanded that all ships be scuttled. The patriots were led by the commander of the destroyer Kerch, Senior Lieutenant Vladimir Kukel, the grandson of Admiral G. I. Nevelskoy.

Tikhmenev nevertheless issued the order to prepare for sailing, which was ignored by some destroyers. Furthermore, many sailors abandoned the ships that were about to carry out Tikhmenev's order during the night. On the morning of June 16, hundreds of townspeople gathered at the ships, urging the sailors not to abandon them. On June 17, 1918, the battleship Volya, six destroyers, the auxiliary cruiser Troyan, and a floating base of high-speed boats raised anchor and began to sail to the outer roads. The destroyer Kerch raised the signal:

"Ships going to Sevastopol: a shame on the traitors of Russia."

The destroyer Kerch and the battleship Volya leaving for Sevastopol

Following this, the battleship Svobodnaya Rossiya, 10 destroyers, 5 transport ships and one tanker were sunk in Novorossiysk.

The destroyer "Stremitelny", raised from the bottom of Tsemes Bay in 1926.

And on August 26, Novorossiysk was occupied by the Whites. The Red Taman Army, which included sailors from the sunken warships, headed south to Tuapse and then turned east toward Armavir. This heroic 500-kilometer march, during which the Taman troops literally swept away all enemy troops (both Georgian and White) that stood in their way, entered history like the Iron Stream. And yet, with them came thousands of refugees – with their belongings and livestock.

G.K. Savitsky. "The Campaign of the Red Taman Army"

The sad fate of warships in Sevastopol

The ships that arrived in Sevastopol were soon captured by Russia's former Entente allies. The British raised their flag on the destroyers Derzkiy and Schastlivy, the French took the Bespokoyny and Kapitan Saken, which they named R-1 and R-2, the Italians received the destroyer Zorkiy, and the Greeks received the Zvonkiy. The British took the battleship Volya to Izmit. After this, the sailors of the "allies" began looting the warehouses of the Sevastopol port, with the crew of the Greek battleship Lemnos particularly "distinguished" themselves.

Black Sea Fleet of the Volunteer Army

Nevertheless, in January 1919, the Volunteer Army's Black Sea Fleet was established in Novorossiysk, which in March 1920 took part in the evacuation of Denikin's armies to Crimea. The first ships to join this fleet were the requisitioned icebreaker Polezny, the submarine Tyulen (the Black Sea Fleet's most effective submarine during World War I), and the gunboat K-15. In April 1919, these ships were joined by the armored cruiser Kagul (formerly Ochakov), now renamed General Kornilov. Meanwhile, the British and French sank 13 Russian submarines in the outer roads of Sevastopol.

By the summer of 1919, the White Black Sea Fleet already consisted of more than 10 ships, and in the fall, the British transferred to the Whites the battleship Volya (renamed General Alekseyev), the cruiser Almaz, several destroyers, and other smaller ships. By 1920, the White Black Sea Fleet consisted of more than 120 vessels, including the battleship General Alekseyev, the armored cruiser General Kornilov, three auxiliary cruisers, eight destroyers, nine gunboats, and three submarines. In addition, a naval detachment for the defense of the Sea of ​​Azov—eight gunboats—was active from May 1919, later relocated to the Dnieper. In December 1919, the Whites acquired a new detachment of ships on the Sea of ​​Azov, including the battleship Rostislav, 12 gunboats, and several other vessels. It was periodically joined by two or three destroyers from Sevastopol. All these ships took part in the landing operations of Baron Wrangel's army, provided fire support to ground forces, laid minefields, participated in naval battles, and then evacuated White Guards from Crimea.

Wrangel's final defeat

As is well known, Frunze's Southern Front's offensive against White Guard Crimea began on the night of November 8, 1920, with strikes at Perekop and through the Sivash. Within 24 hours, Wrangel's units had withdrawn from Perekop. On November 11, when the Whites had already fled to the sea without resistance, M.V. Frunze and the Revolutionary Military Council of the Southern Front sent Wrangel the following radiogram:

In view of the obvious futility of your troops' continued resistance, which threatens only to shed further streams of blood, I propose that you cease resistance and surrender, along with all army and navy troops, military supplies, equipment, weapons, and all military property. Should you accept this proposal, the Revolutionary Military Council of the Southern Front Armies, based on the powers granted to it by the central Soviet government, guarantees those surrendering, including senior commanding officers, full pardon for all offenses related to the civil struggle. All those unwilling to remain and work in socialist Russia will be granted the opportunity to leave the country unhindered, provided they renounce, on their word of honor, any further struggle against workers' and peasants' Russia and Soviet power. I expect a response within 24 hours. White officers, our proposal places a colossal responsibility on you. If it is rejected and the struggle continues, then all blame for the senselessly spilled Russian blood will fall on you. The Red Army will drown the remnants of the Crimean counterrevolution in streams of your blood.

And on the same day, a front-line order was published, "On the successful advance of the Red Army troops in Crimea and on the treatment of prisoners." It stated:

Red Army soldiers! Our valiant units, having broken through the enemy's fortified positions, have stormed into Crimea... The Revolutionary Military Council of the Southern Front sent a radiogram to Wrangel, his officers, and soldiers offering them 24 hours to surrender—a period that guarantees the lives of those surrendering and free passage abroad for those who wish to do so... The Revolutionary Military Council of the Southern Front calls on all Red Army soldiers to spare those who surrender and those captured. A Red Army soldier is feared only by the enemy. He is a knight to the vanquished.

M. Frunze

Frunze also ordered a halt to the offensive for two to three days. Had it not been for this order, the 1st and 2nd Red Cavalry Armies and Makhno's cavalry units would have cut off the White forces from the sea, and then, along with the arriving infantry units, destroyed them. Thus, Frunze effectively saved Wrangel's forces from complete annihilation. Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars Lenin was very displeased with the "leniency" of the Southern Front commander, but he did not rescind his order. He did, however, telegraph:

If the enemy does not accept these conditions, then, in my opinion, they cannot be repeated any more and must be dealt with mercilessly.

In addition, the Bolshevik leader demanded that upon surrender, the Whites hand over all the ships at their disposal to the Soviet Republic.

But Wrangel wanted to withdraw his troops to Constantinople, where he hoped to reach an agreement with the allies and continue the war, and so he was categorically opposed to Frunze's proposal. It would literally destroy his army: few would follow him to foreign lands, especially since everyone remembered how the Reds had treated the White Guards who had failed to evacuate and had surrendered quite humanely in Novorossiysk. Wrangel did not respond to the radiogram and even forbade its dissemination among the troops. Now Frunze and the members of the Revolutionary Military Council were inevitably forced to conclude that the Whites who had rejected their proposal were implacable enemies, willing to die rather than surrender. In fact, it was Wrangel who "untied the hands" of the fanatics, which led to tragic consequences for many White Guards remaining in Crimea.

Escape from Crimea

What about Wrangel's Black Sea Fleet? In November 1920, it was transformed into a Russian squadron, and its ships evacuated the White Guards to Constantinople. Wrangel himself boarded the cruiser General Kornilov on November 14 at 14:50 PM, when power in Sevastopol had already passed to the Revolutionary Committee, and only on November 15 did Red Army units enter the city. Meanwhile, on November 13 (October 31), the "Black Baron" signed a convention with French representatives stating that he:

He places his army, navy and his supporters under the protection of France, offering France the proceeds from the sale of his military and civilian fleets as payment.

In accordance with this convention, the French seized all the material assets that Wrangel's forces had taken from Crimea: weapons, uniforms, and goods. They also requisitioned Russian warships, which were transferred to the harbor of Bizerte, Tunisia, which belonged to France. By February 1921, all 33 ships of Wrangel's former Black Sea squadron, seized by the French, were there.

Bizerte on the map

These ships carried 5,849 people, including 648 officers and 3,836 sailors, to the city. Some of the sailors were on the ships, while others were in camps located on shore. By January 1, 1922, 825 people remained on the ships, 170 of whom were officers; by the end of the year, this number had decreased to 387 (including 96 officers). By April 1, 1923, only 274 people remained on the ships, and by November 1 of that year, 210.

The agony of the Black Sea squadron in Bizerte

Submarines Tyulen, Utka, and AG-22, Bizerte, 1922.

Officers of the Russian squadron in Bizerte, 1922.

It should be noted that the Entente powers no longer needed warships—especially such old ones. The French, for example, soon scrapped four new Normandie-class battleships. When German sailors sank the ships that had surrendered to the Allies in Scapa Flow Bay, British Admiral Rosslyn Wemyss declared:

I look at the flooding as a real gift from heaven... Anyone would think, like me: "Thank God!"

The joy of the admiral and the British is understandable: instead of unnecessary ships, they demanded additional reparations from Germany in cash.

Meanwhile, transport ships and tankers were now in great demand worldwide, many of which had been sunk by German submarines. But the large workshop ship Kronstadt attracted particular attention from the French: it was immediately towed to Toulon and commissioned into the French Navy under the name Vulcan.

The Bizerte Squadron command profited by selling transport vessels. In 1922, for example, the ships Don, Baku, Dobycha, Ilya Muromets, Gaidamak, Goland, Kitoboy, Vsadnik, Yakut, and Dzhigit were sold.
Interestingly, four of the sold ships later inadvertently entered Soviet Black Sea ports and were confiscated by Soviet authorities. The shipowners filed lawsuits in international court—and lost.

Émigré con man Alexander Klyagin, through a front company called Sospete anonyme exploirarion (Anonymous Society for the Exploitation of Reserves), sold naval guns to countries as far away as Estonia and Argentina. As a result, four 305mm guns from the battleship General Alekseyev (formerly Alexander III) were installed by the Germans on a battery on Guernsey Island in the English Channel, and eight ended up in Finland: two were given to the USSR by the Finns following the Winter War, while the rest were used against besieged Leningrad from 1942 to 1944 and returned "home" after Finland's capitulation.

But many officers and sailors tried to keep their ships in more or less decent condition and even attempted to scuttle them when threatened with confiscation by the French authorities. This was the case, for example, on February 27, 1923, with two midshipmen of the gunboat Grozny. However, since the vessel sank in shallow water, the French raised it and eventually towed it away from Bizerte.

In 1921, the Marine Corps was re-established in Bizerte. Rear Admiral Peltier, by the way, wrote in 1967:

Former students of the Naval Corps follow with interest, and perhaps even nostalgia, the progress of naval affairs in Russia, from which they were cut off and which was revived at the Leningrad school named after Frunze within the walls where the St. Petersburg school once trained officers.

The naval corps in Bizerte closed in May 1925, as there was no one left to study there: only 700 Russians remained in Tunisia at the time, 149 of them in Bizerte itself. They became pharmacists and salespeople, the most successful ones became accountants and bookkeepers, while the women worked as governesses and housekeepers for the families of French colonists. Even Captain 1st Rank V. Grigorkov, who held the Officer's Cross of the Legion of Honor, was denied employment on a merchant vessel. He and Captain 2nd Rank Hydrographer I. Rykov managed to find work only as land surveyors, and not in Bizerte, but in southern Tunisia. Anastasia Shirinskaya-Manshtein, the daughter of the captain of the destroyer "Zharkiy," recalled:

I was the eldest; my mother worked all day, and sometimes in the evenings, too, leaving us with little time for housework. Often, waking up in the morning, I'd suddenly feel a surge of uncontrollable panic at the prospect of what I'd have to do that day. How would I wash two little girls under the cold tap in our cramped kitchen, which doubled as a bathroom and laundry room, with the cold winter wind piercing through the cracks in the poorly fitted windows? And then there was the daily pile of dishes I had to deal with! And all of it—in cold water with swollen, frostbitten fingers.

After receiving her education in Germany, she returned to Bizerte, where she managed to find work as a mathematics teacher.

In 1938, a small church dedicated to Alexander Nevsky was opened in Bizerte. In 1992, it came under the jurisdiction of the Russian Orthodox Church and was effectively financed by the state budget. By this time, incidentally, only one Russian woman remained in Bizerte – the aforementioned A. Shirinskaya-Manshteyn, who was 80 years old at the time. Most of the Bizerte émigrés had left for France, Belgium, and Czechoslovakia in the 20s, where they worked as taxi drivers and in factories. Ivan Bogdanov, a former midshipman and now a Parisian taxi driver, became the head of the Association of Midshipmen, Cadets, and Hunters of the Fleet.

On October 28, 1924, the French authorities established diplomatic relations with the USSR and agreed to return the ships moored in Tunisia. On October 30, a Soviet delegation arrived in Bizerte, led by the renowned shipbuilder A. N. Krylov and our country's naval attaché in Great Britain, E. A. Behrens (brother of Rear Admiral M. A. Behrens, who had commanded this squadron since 1921). At the time, the ships were stationed in three different locations: the battleship and cruiser in the outer roadstead of Bizerte Bay; the destroyers Almaz and Moryak and four submarines near the shore; and the old battleship Georgy Pobedonosets (Georgiy Pobedonosets) separately, alongside the French ships.

Mikhail Andreevich Berens, son of a Tiflis prosecutor and grandson of an admiral who circumnavigated the globe twice. He was promoted to rear admiral by Kolchak. After officially handing over the Bizerte Squadron to the USSR, he lived in France and made women's handbags. He died in Tunisia in January 1943. Photograph from the 1910s.

Yevgeny Andreevich Berens, Mikhail's older brother, was a tsarist captain of the first rank. In 1904, he became senior navigator of the cruiser Varyag and participated in the Battle of Chemulpo. He was former Chief of the Naval General Staff (1917–1919) and commander of the Workers' and Peasants' Red Fleet (April 1919–February 1920). From 1926, he was assigned to special assignments at the headquarters of the Main Naval Directorate and the Chairman of the Revolutionary Military Council of the USSR. Pre-revolutionary photograph.

E. Behrens wrote:

The impression from a cursory inspection is rather pessimistic. The ships, in terms of their appearance, are all in terrible condition; everything that could rust and be easily damaged is rusted and broken... Three Noviks are in decent condition and even have working artillery and devices, the other two and the "Cerigo" that was under construction are in bad condition and will have to undergo major repairs.

A list of ships that, based on their condition, could still serve in the Soviet Navy was compiled: one battleship, a cruiser, six destroyers, and four submarines. It was estimated that preparing them for the voyage to Sevastopol would require work costing 50 gold rubles, which could be completed in three months. Once in the USSR, a major overhaul would cost between 10 and 15 million rubles. However, the French authorities avoided fulfilling their obligations in every way possible, and the ships remained rotting in Bizerte. They were eventually sold for scrap between 1930 and 1936.

The French were unaware that in July 1940, their British allies would seize their ships in Portsmouth, Plymouth, and Devonport and attack the squadron in the Algerian port of Mers-el-Kebir, in Dakar, Senegal, and in several other ports. We will discuss this in the next article.

Comments

[Wildcat]

In fact, it was Wrangel who “untied the hands” of the fanatics, which led to tragic consequences for many White Guards who remained in Crimea.

No, the previous articles with "destroyer armor on tallow candles" and other pearls of wisdom were enough to understand the author's failures in history, but that's okay, the history of technology is not accessible to everyone.
But... the simplest questions of morality and ethics... shouldn't cause such difficulties...

[know]

Oh, how it confounds illiterate anti-Sovietists, anti-communists, and monarchists to know the truth. Frunze put forward very dignified and humane terms of surrender—accompanied by clear instructions on the consequences of refusal. Like Suvorov to the Turks before the storming of Izmail. And, considering that there were no mass repressions against the Whites just recently in a similar situation in Novorossiysk, one can assume Frunze would have kept his promise. He gave his word and set a clear time frame. He halted his troops, which saved the Whites from complete annihilation. Wrangel acted as a moral zealot by concealing the proposal from his troops. The author clearly and thoroughly recounts what happened next in his article, "Mikhail Frunze and the Repressions in Liberated Crimea." This includes how both Wrangel's plundering forces and the "white and fluffy" White Guards who remained in Crimea and formed gangs treated the local population.
You, anti-Sovietists, anti-communists, and monarchists, have destroyed a great country and are now trying to defend your predecessors, who destroyed it at the beginning of the 20th century—the incompetent Nikolai the Last, those who want to drive the people "into the fold" of the bloody cocaine addict Kolchak, who allowed Denikin to openly murder, rob, and rape, something even Slashchev and Wrangel accused him of, and absolute scumbags like Shkuro, Mamontov, Semenov, Annenkov, and others. Your time has passed; you won't deceive the people a second time in our lifetime.

[3x3zsave]

You, anti-Sovietists, anti-communists, monarchists, have destroyed a great country and are now trying to defend your predecessors, who destroyed it at the beginning of the 20th century.
Alexey, did Tatra bite you?

[Senior seaman]

Quote: vet

illiterate

Anyone who has shown themselves to be "illiterate" in articles about the navy, everyone but you has already understood)))
Although, as you've probably already realized, this article is deeply derivative, as the author has already written about all of this and there's nothing to discuss here. So you rushed to discuss the political leanings of others.

[know]

Who showed themselves to be "illiterate" in articles about the fleet?

Are you in your four extremely weak articles?

[Senior seaman]

You see, here's the thing, Alexey.
1) You're not qualified to judge the quality of my articles. You simply don't understand the subject. Otherwise, you'd understand that they:
a) rely on serious sources (which I cite at the end, which is your idol never does)
b) do not contain questionable information
2) Whatever the quality of these articles, it doesn't improve Ryzhov's work. And they, at least in the last cycle, are beneath all criticism.
3) Once again, I would like to point out that instead of discussing Valery’s article, you prefer to discuss the personal qualities of other people.
But you know that every time you start defending Ryzhov, you bury him even deeper.
So keep going!

[know]

on tallow candles

I'm so fed up with these illiterate commentators.
A case is described

In 1916, according to official N. M. Saprovsky, on a destroyer that was en route between Kronstadt and St. Petersburg, someone inserted tallow candles into the rivet holes, which is why the ship almost sank.

[Senior seaman]

Quote: vet

I'm so fed up with these illiterate commentators.

Don't withdraw into yourself, they'll find you there in no time))

Quote: vet

In 1916, according to official N. M. Saprovsky, on a destroyer that was en route between Kronstadt and St. Petersburg, someone inserted tallow candles into the rivet holes, which is why the ship almost sank.

Okay. And what did yours write? favorite author?

It's gotten to the point where for the purpose of saving money There were cases where armor plates were secured not with metal rivets, but with wooden bushings, and on one of the destroyers, tallow candles were even used for this purpose.

That is, in real life, some idiot once tried to restore the seal using such an exotic method, and Ryzhov, with a straight face, announced that
a) it was a constant practice
b) it was done for the sake of economy
You really don't understand the difference?
Not to mention what the hell kind of armor plates are there on a destroyer?!
Okay, let me try to explain. So, you're supposed to be a doctor. Now imagine an article on Topware claiming the revolution happened because a court physician tried to treat a high-ranking patient's hemorrhoids with haloperidol, administering it orally...
This is approximately the level of nonsense that Ryzhov has.
You can think whatever you want about me, including that I envy his immense talent (seriously?) and am a bad person in general. But the truth is, there are people (including yours truly) who love history in general and our navy in particular. They are outraged by the stupid lies of illiterate scribblers.
Dixi

[know]

It turns out you're not only a weak writer, but also an inattentive reader. The article says:

on one of the destroyers tallow candles were even used for this purpose.

On just one thing. Where is the talk about constant practice?

[Senior seaman]

Quote: vet

the reader is inattentive

And you?
It's gotten to the point where for the purpose of saving money There were cases where armor plates were secured not with metal rivets, but with wooden bushings, and on one of the destroyers, tallow candles were even used for this purpose.
What does saving money have to do with this? The man was clearly trying to seal the resulting hole with whatever was at hand.

Quote: vet

Where are the words about constant practice?

here
It got to the point that in order to save money, they were marked cases
That is, from Ryzhov’s point of view, this happened significantly more than once.
Well, if you had a memory even slightly better than a Guppy fish, you would remember that we were talking about attaching armor.
And you also asked a question about this, which I answered...

Quote: vet

the writer is weak

You know, it's better to be a weak writer (even though you, due to laziness and lack of curiosity, don't know anything about me))) than, in the absence of arguments, to resort to personal attacks and constantly be hypocritical

[know]

This, excuse me, is all just petty quibbles. You're picking on some perhaps unfortunate or imprecise expression and slapping labels on it—like with the candles. Or—ah, the ship wasn't laid down as a sailing vessel, but as a combined-steam one. That's it, a universal tragedy and sorrow. A deliberate and malicious distortion! It's ridiculous, isn't it?

[Senior seaman]

Quote: vet

This, I'm sorry

Sorry. Saying stupid things is normal for you.

Quote: vet

You cling to some, perhaps unsuccessful and imprecise, expression

No, sir, that's not an inaccuracy. Trying to present an isolated incident as a system is manipulation. Judging by your approach, it's a successful one.

Quote: vet

you're labeling

So, in the absence of arguments, I start shouting about "crust bakers"?
Are you not ashamed at all?

Quote: vet

the ship was not laid down as a sailing ship, but as a sail-steam ship

You see, the thing is: if an author is writing a specialized article, surely they should have a basic understanding of the terminology?
This is not just unprofessionalism, but disrespect for readers.

Quote: vet

universal sorrow and tragedy

If you remember, in the article where the author came up with this "pearl," I didn't pay any attention to it at all, since, against the backdrop of all the other nonsense, it really was a trifle.
I mentioned him in another article, where a colleague expressed surprise at Ryzhov's strange classification, and I, in turn, pointed out that for him, this was the norm. Nothing more.
But of course you couldn't help but get excited...

Quote: vet

It's funny, isn't it?

You know what's really funny?
When a grown and accomplished person (you're not a schoolchild, are you?) in the absence of arguments begins to reproach opponents for the wrong place of residence, political views, and insufficient literary talent.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

A sad page of our Fatherland.
Thank you Valery!

[avia12005]

The Bizerte Squadron command profited by selling transport ships. In 1922, for example, the ships Don, Baku, Dobycha, Ilya Muromets, Gaidamak, Goland, Kitoboy, Vsadnik, Yakut, and Dzhigit were sold.

History repeated itself in the 90s, when the Russian Navy command profited from selling and scrapping dozens of ships, including ocean-going ones, that could have served forever. And which would have been oh so useful today.

[Rodez]

Quote: avia12005

History repeated itself in the 90s of the last century, when the command of the Russian Navy profited from the sale and shipment of metal

Of course, you're right... but they were selling everything, everything, like crazy and everywhere... not only the Navy and not only in the Russian Federation... no military force would have been (and was not) capable of inflicting such losses as "freedom and democracy", which, in fact, was required

[Non-fighter]

I was in Severomorsk in the fall of 1992. It's a joy to look at, a forest of masts. But of these ships "set for a cruise tomorrow," there were only two or three destroyers, the same number of large anti-submarine ships, and a "parquet cruiser." A month of intensive repairs, and they would have been joined by the heavy cruiser Kalinin and one or two destroyers and a large anti-submarine ship. That's all the KSF could muster in 1992. A KUG, nothing more. I remember how, during my last tour of duty on the Kirov, they moored a "heater"—some kind of hydrographic surveyor that would heat our ship in winter. Remember our quasi-aircraft carriers that were scrapped in the roadsteads because the ship was built, but there was no berth for it with all the necessary equipment.

[Songwolf]

I have no desire to analyze the nonsense in the article... I was in Bizerte and created a video about that visit, "Bizerte - Russia's Pain." There I also purchased Anastasia Shirinskaya's book, "Bizerte: The Last Stop," which details everything from the first to the last day. There are lots of photographs. I visited her grave among the graves of Russian sailors. In 1997, Anastasia Alexandrovna received a Russian passport. Soviet and Russian sailors always visited Shirinskaya's house when warships docked in Bizerte.
If anyone's interested, the video is freely available online. I'm no videographer, but I tried.

[know]

Another anti-Soviet supporter who wrote a lot of obvious nonsense in the comments on articles about Frunze. Keep going, we'll have a laugh.

[Hole puncher]

German and Ukrainian troops entered Crimea, and there was a real threat that the Black Sea Fleet ships would be captured by the Germans.

And how did they end up there? Hmm... Didn't the Bolsheviks give the land to the Germans and commit to disarming the fleet?

[bk0010]

Quote: Puncher

And how did they end up there? Hmm... Didn't the Bolsheviks give the land to the Germans and commit to disarming the fleet?

Petliura was a Bolshevik?!

[Grancer81]

You might be very surprised, but it wasn't the Bolsheviks... Just as it wasn't the Bolsheviks who actually surrendered Ukraine to the Germans.

[Doctor]

Incidentally, the Berens brothers never met in person. "White" Berens went into town and didn't return until the commission's departure. He maintained his posture to the very end.

[andrewkor]

It is painful to read about the tragedy of the Russian people in the Civil War.

[Doctor]

The fate of the main caliber guns from the battleship Emperor Alexander III is interesting.

After the ships were dismantled, they sat in French warehouses, and then eight of them were given to the Finns. When the Great Patriotic War began, our garrison in Hanko blew up the TM-III-12 railway installations before leaving. But not completely.
The Finns raised them and restored three of them, installing cannons they had purchased. They didn't fire at our troops, though.

After the end of WWII, the Finns were forced to return the installations to the USSR. One of them now stands on Poklonnaya Hill.
Having travelled around Europe, changing their flag 15 times, 3 guns returned to their homeland.

[know]

Mikhail and Yevgeny Berens were two brothers. One betrayed his people by siding with a regime hated by the vast majority of Russians, and languished in exile, sewing women's handbags. He proved incapable of more. The pitiful fate of a renegade who abandoned his homeland. The other made the right choice and brought great service to our country, commanding the navy and serving on the General Staff of the Chief of Naval Affairs and the Chairman of the Revolutionary Military Council of the USSR. A dignified life for a dignified man.

[Trapperxnumx]

The fate of these two brothers is a mirror image of the common tragedy of our people - the Civil War, which still rages in the minds and hearts of many patriots.

[Olgovich]

Quote: vet

One betrayed his people by siding with a regime hated by the vast majority of Russians.

and concluded shameful, treacherous treaties - the Tartu Treaty, having robbed Russia of Pechenya, Rybachy, etc., etc., made Finland a polar power, but, alas, did not live to see 1937.

The second, a veteran of four wars for Russia and with four times as many awards, served Russia until the end of 1943. Mikhail Andreevich Berens lived in Tunisia for the rest of his life, and Tunisia was then a French protectorate. In the 1920s, he worked in the Tunisian agricultural directorate. served as a land surveyor in the topographic service department of the Department of Agricultureva. He experienced many hardships, refusing, like other Russian officers, to accept French citizenship.
Mikhail Andreevich Berens made every effort to help his compatriots, the sailors of the Russian Squadron. He was actively involved in the local branch of the Naval Union, served as chairman of the Russian Squadron Officers' Wardroom and chairman of the Mutual Aid Union in Tunisia, and was a member of the committee for the construction of the Russian Orthodox Church of Alexander Nevsky—a memorial church to the ships of the Russian Squadron—in Bizerte in 1938.
During World War II (1939-1945), he lived in the Tunisian suburb of Megrin, maintaining connections and assisting the families of Russian sailors. He continued contacts established in the 1920s with French naval officers who supported General Charles de Gaulle's call to fight Nazi Germany and became members of the French Resistance.
From November 1942 to May 1943, Tunisia was occupied by German Nazis and Italian Fascists.

Mikhail sent Russian students to fight against the Nazis.
Their names are carved on a black marble plaque in the second Orthodox Church in Tunisia, the Church of the Resurrection of Christ in the capital:
FEDOROV KIRILL
YURGENS NIKOLAY
GRUNEKOV MIKHAIL
ALEXANDROV NIKOLAY
SHAROV KIRILL
KHARLAMOV GEORGY

In September 2001 years The missile cruiser Moskva, which arrived on a friendly visit to Tunisia, brought a monument to Mikhail Andreevich Berens from Sevastopol.All work on installing the tombstone at the Borzhel cemetery was carried out by sailors from the cruiser.

September 10, 2001…
The unveiling ceremony of the memorial tombstone for Mikhail Andreevich Berens was moving.
An honor guard lined up in front of the grave. The slab was covered with the St. Andrew's flag of the Russian Navy, to which Mikhail Andreevich remained faithful throughout his life.

[belost79]

The tragedy of Bizerte is that the ships hijacked there by traitors to Russia were destroyed. They fought not for Mother Rus', not for the Tsar, not for the Orthodox Faith, but for their privileges and property. And for the opportunity to slap the lower ranks in the face with gloves.
These ships would have been very useful to the Black Sea Fleet during the Great Patriotic War. In fact, the Whites fought on Hitler's side, even while he was still begging for a drink in pubs. And they helped him destroy many warships.

[denis. 76]

Reading such things certainly makes one want to rant and rave, but objectively, one must admit that the Black Sea Fleet was always trapped. A strategic error was made in its creation and subsequent development. The fleet was initially created isolated from sea lanes and could not receive reinforcements from the mother country if needed, nor could it allocate forces and resources to solve problems in other theaters of war (with the exception of Ushakov's squadron in 1798-1800, but then there was a military alliance with the Ottomans). The fleet could only rely on its local industrial base near the Black Sea for its development. In the 18th century, this was created from scratch and had to be built in the sparsely populated steppes of Ukraine. This, of course, inevitably affected the timeframe and cost, so the fleet was always small and very expensive. Its resources were insufficient to solve the strategic problem of controlling the straits throughout the 18th and 19th centuries. With the advent of the Industrial Revolution and the development of new industrial and coal centers in southern Russia in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the situation improved. However, the Black Sea Fleet's needs still couldn't be met in a timely manner, keeping pace with advances in naval technology. The fleet received dreadnoughts too late, a year after the start of World War I, a year later than the Baltic Fleet, and in half the number. Conversely, the enemy, using the straits, could deploy any naval force it wanted into the Black Sea and avoid combat unless it had superior forces. We were lucky that our adversary was an archaic and very weak industrial Turkey. Unlike us, however, it had access to sea lanes in this theater. If it managed to find strong allies, our fleet would find itself in a hopeless situation, as it did in the Crimean War or World War I. Although, in World War I, I believe the fleet had a real chance in 1915 to take the straits and thereby win the entire war, history doesn't favor the subjunctive mood, and we have what we have. The main thing is not to repeat the mistakes of the past, which, unfortunately, we cannot avoid even today.

[Non-fighter]

Mmm... I doubt they took the straits in 1915. Yavuz was terrorizing the entire Black Sea back then.
In 1917 it was more realistic, there was something to respond with and there was already experience with landings, but there was no longer any power then.

[denis. 76]

I doubt they took the straits in 1915. Yavuz was terrorizing the entire Black Sea back then.

Therefore, it was necessary to first conduct an operation to eliminate the Goeben threat in the Sea of ​​Marmara, where it was based. For example, using submarines, the British managed to torpedo and sink the Turkish battleship Hayr al-Din Barbarossa, a former German Brandenburg-class ship of 1891 with a displacement of 10 tons, in the Sea of ​​Marmara on August 8, 1915.
Or try to disable it with aircraft (seaplanes), the same British on August 11, 1915 in the same Sea of ​​Marmara sank a Turkish steamship during a torpedo attack from a seaplane launched from the seaplane transport "Ben-Mai-Sri" in the Black Sea Fleet there were two seaplane transports "Alexander I" and "Nikolai I", on which M-5 seaplanes were based, and they could have been used to attack the "Goeben" from the air, not to sink it, but to disable it at the time of the landing.

[Sergey Valov]

The Black Sea squadron of pre-dreadnoughts could easily have fought off Yavuz, which is why he didn't rush to engage them. Of course, they couldn't catch up.

[Grancer81]

Yeah, he was a nightmare... And most importantly, HOW he "was a nightmare"... Like a petty school bully.

[Non-fighter]

If anything, the bully was a big one; only a whole crowd could fight him off, or even just cause minor mischief. Until some big guys (or rather, women) showed up at school.

[Grancer81]

But in August 1914, no one in Sevastopol or St. Petersburg imagined that he would appear on the Black Sea.

[Sergey Valov]

A fleet in the Black Sea was necessary, as history has fully proven.
1. "The enemy, on the contrary, using the straits, could introduce any naval forces into the Black Sea" - Our fleet could not fight with England or France at sea in any theater; their forces were too incomparable.
2. "The fleet could only rely on the local production base near the Black Sea for its development" - The production base on the Black Sea was quite adequate; they could build practically everything, which is what they did.
3. “There was a real chance to take the straits in 1915” - Our fleet did not have the strength to capture the straits in 1915, even the allies did not succeed.
4. "The fleet was created from the start to be isolated from sea lanes." The Baltic Fleet, too, has always been in a closed theater and could be isolated. So, shouldn't Russia build a fleet?
5. "Its resources were insufficient to solve the strategic problem of controlling the straits throughout the 18th and 19th centuries." Such a task was never assigned to the navy. To capture the straits, it is necessary to occupy BOTH shores. What navy is capable of this? An army operation on both sides is required. It would be easier to simply defeat Turkey.
6. “We were lucky that our enemy was an archaic and very weak industrial Turkey” - Russia had no other enemies in the Black Sea, and our fleet fought quite successfully against the Turkish fleet.

[denis. 76]

I disagree with you on all points. The problem I mentioned with the Black Sea Fleet led it to two instances of self-destruction to avoid capture by the enemy. Assuming you're right, such incidents should never have occurred.
In my opinion, if the problem isn't ignored as you've done, there are only two possible solutions: "mobilization" and "adaptive." The mobilization option would initially involve planning and capturing the Black Sea straits with the involvement of all national forces and as many allied states as possible. Then, the construction of a large fleet of first-rank ships in the Black Sea is entirely justified, as after capturing the straits, the fleet would become a Mediterranean fleet, and all restrictions associated with its prohibition would cease to exist. The second, "adaptive" option would involve abandoning the policy of fighting for the straits and the overall confrontation with Turkey. This option would involve a diplomatic settlement of shipping in the Black Sea and the straits, mutual recognition of borders and zones of influence. Then, the demands on the Black Sea Fleet would be significantly reduced, and the tasks of protecting the coast and Black Sea communications could be carried out by a flotilla of light forces and coastal defense forces. In principle, under current conditions, the second option has been almost fully realized, and the large ships of the Black Sea Fleet are an anachronism that will likely be corrected in the near future.

[gsev]

Quote: Sergey Valov

"There was a real chance to take the straits in 1915" - Our fleet did not have the strength to capture the straits in 1915, even the allies did not succeed.

In 1915, the German offensive on the Eastern Front began amid a severe shortage of shells and heavy artillery in the Imperial Army. Diverting troops, transport, and ammunition to a dubious landing operation 500 kilometers from their bases against the Bulgarian and Turkish armies was foolish.

[Senior seaman]

Denis, before writing such an impressive (for a short comment) amount of nonsense, didn't you at least try to do some research? The very same subject matter...

[deddem]

Quote: Not the fighter

Mmm... I doubt they took the straits in 1915. Yavuz was terrorizing the entire Black Sea back then.
In 1917 it was more realistic, there was something to respond with and there was already experience with landings, but there was no longer any power then.

There are also doubts about 1917, since the Turks had gained experience in fighting against landings in the Straits, and the backbone of these troops was kept in reserve near Istanbul even during the most difficult times of our offensive in 1916.

In fact, Kemal Pasha later came to power on the bayonets of his Gallipoli soldiers.

[Olgovich]

The further the articles go, the worse it gets...

, who were willing to die rather than surrender. And it was Wrangel who effectively "untied the hands" of the fanatics, which led to tragic consequences for many White Guards.
remaining in Crimea.

So they gave in, they didn't die. WHAT stopped them from fulfilling their promises? What stopped them was that no one was going to keep them.

and at the beginning of June, a telegram from Trotsky arrived in Novorossiysk demanding that the ships located there be sunk

and this is how it actually happened::
Monastyrev N.A. "NOTES OF A NAVAL OFFICER", events after the Bolsheviks fled Crimea from the Germans:

Meanwhile, the recent events in Sevastopol and the passage to Novorossiysk sobered the crews. The sailors saw that at a critical moment Their leaders, having taken the money, disappeared, abandoning it. They learned from experience that those who had delivered pompous speeches, called on them to defend freedom, and denounced the officers, turned out to be simply scoundrels.Those whom they themselves persecuted and killed, in difficult times, found themselves with them.

The mood of the ships' crews completely changed. On one of the ships, in early May, all the commanders, ship committees, and crew representatives gathered and, by a general vote, asked Admiral Sablin. He agreed. on condition of raising the St. Andrew's flag on ships and the destruction of any electoral principleThe admiral delivered a speech to the crew at this meeting, which made a great impression on those present.



"By assuming power," he said, "under these conditions, I hope, with the support of the crews, to restore the ships to combat readiness, but I cannot and will not undertake to save the fleet, since it does not depend on me. The fleet can only be saved by having at least small but disciplined ground forces that could defend Novorossiysk from land in the event of a German attack. Such troops do not exist, and there is nowhere to get them... Now, you have turned to me and the officers, those officers whom you shot, humiliated, and insulted. These officers, numbering slightly more than a hundred, have forgotten everything and, abandoning their families, have gone with you to save the ships. That is how strong their love for Russia and devotion to their native fleet is. So respect and take care of your officers. Now you see for yourself where the red slogans and phrases of your beloved revolutionary leaders, your idols, have led you." A difficult time has come, and your idols are no longer with you. Where are they? Abandoned by them, you once again turn to me, begging for salvation. I must warn you that agitation will be waged against the officers, and against me in particular. There are already vile bastards among you who are beginning their work, but you must tear them out of your midst.



Long live our dear, tormented, unfortunate Russia! Long live the glorious St. Andrew's flag!



From that day on, the squadron returned to its usual, old order. The squadron took control guarded the city and completely cleared it of Red Army soldiers and all harmful elements. The ships began to be painted, cleaned, their machinery repaired, and training exercises conducted. Relations between the sailors and officers were excellent. The following fact characterizes the prevailing mood. Forty-nine captured Kornilov officers were held in the Novorossiysk prison; upon the squadron's arrival, they had expected certain death. Upon learning of this, the sailors immediately released them and offered those who wished to join the ships, giving them special consideration.

Just in case, the city's outskirts began to be fortified, and large guns taken from ships were installed at some points. Meanwhile, political and military events continued as usual.

Some time after the squadron's arrival, the admiral received the following telegram from German Field Marshal Eichhorn: "Novorossiysk, Admiral Sablin. The ships of the former Black Sea Fleet stationed in Novorossiysk have repeatedly violated the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk and participated in the fight against German troops in Ukraine. Therefore, no further negotiations are possible until the ships return to Sevastopol. If this condition is not met, the German High Command in the East will feel compelled to continue the offensive along the coast. Eichhorn."

Indeed, after this, submarines appeared more and more frequently off the port, and German airplanes flew over the city. The admiral responded by informing Field Marshal Eighorn that the port and shore were lined with minefields and that accidents were possible. The telegram was not answered, but the sightings of submarines and airplanes became significantly less frequent.

In early June, a member of the Naval Collegium, a former sailor, arrived from Petrograd with secret documents. The admiral shared the documents with several senior officers and then decided to go to Petrograd to ascertain the situation and obtain supplies for the squadron, which it desperately needed. Captain 1st Rank Tikhmenev, commander of the battleship Volya, assumed command of the squadron. The new commander assembled the squadron's flagships and informed them of the documents' contents. These documents, signed by Lenin, Trotsky, and the Chief of the General Staff,, contained an order to sink the fleet And no explanation of the events or the situation was given. Therefore, the commander, signed by all the squadron's flagships, sent the following telegram: "Moscow. To Lenin and Trotsky. The Council of Flagships, meeting on June 7 on the battleship Volya, having reviewed the secret report of the Naval General Staff and the order No. 1, has decided: given that no real danger threatens Novorossiysk from the advance of German troops from the east or from the Kerch Strait, it is premature to destroy the ships. Any attempt to issue such an order will be considered blatant treason."

By this time, rumors had already reached the squadron about the execution in Moscow of Captain 1st Rank Shchastny, commander of the Baltic Fleet, for defying a similar Bolshevik order and saving the fleet by transferring it from Helsinki to Kronstadt. On June 10, the commander received a series of telegrams, from which it was clear that the German command had issued an ultimatum requiring the squadron to be transferred to Sevastopol by June 19. Then an open telegram was sent from Moscow, signed by the Council of People's Commissars, with an order to transfer the squadron to Sevastopol and at the same time encrypted with the following content: “You will be sent an open telegram - in fulfillment of the ultimatum to go to Sevastopol, but you are obliged not to fulfill this telegram, but on the contrary, to destroy the fleet.”"There could be no doubt that the "workers' and peasants'" government was playing a dishonest game and wanted to sink the squadron. When the crews learned of this telegram, their indignation knew no bounds. The squadron was terrifying to the Bolshevik leaders, as it was under the influence of the officers. It had to be destroyed.This also played into the Germans' hands.

What about Wrangel's Black Sea Fleet? In November 1920, it was transformed into a Russian squadron, and its ships evacuated the White Guards to Constantinople.

And the Russian fleet fulfilled its purpose—it protected and saved from reprisal and death hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers, women, and children, condemned to executions, camps, torture, the Boryogs and Yezhovs, and so on.

"Order

Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Army.



№ 4187

Cruiser "General Kornilov" November 21, 1920

(new style)

The difficult situation that developed at the end of October for the Russian army forced me to decide on the evacuation of Crimea, so as not to bring the bleeding troops to death in an unequal fight with the advancing enemy.

The entire burden and responsibility for the success of the upcoming work fell to our valiant fleet, bside by side with the army, he shared the labor and hardships of the Crimean period of the struggle against the oppressors and rapists of our homeland.

The difficulty of the task assigned to the fleet was aggravated by the possibility of bad autumn weather, and by the fact that, despite my warnings about the impending hardships and difficult future, 120 thousand Russian soldiers, ordinary citizens, women and children, did not wish to submit to violence and injustice, preferring an exit into the unknown.



The dedicated work of the fleet ensured that everyone had the opportunity to carry out their decision. Everything that could not only move on the sea, but even remain afloat, was mobilized. In order and formation, covered by the combat part of the fleet, one after another the overloaded steamships and vessels broke away from the Russian land, some on their own, some in tow, heading towards the distant shores of Constantinople.

And here before us is a spectacle unprecedented in the history of mankind: a concentration of ships has been concentrated in the Bosphorus roadstead. over a hundred Russian pennants, who took out huge thousands of Russian patriots, whom the red avalanche was already preparing to drench with deadly fire.

Please accept, His Excellency and all ranks of the Navy, from senior to junior, my heartfelt gratitude for your selfless work, which has once again supported the valor and glory of the Russian St. Andrew's flag.



I also sincerely thank all the employees of the commercial fleet, who contributed with their efforts and energy to the successful completion of the entire operation to evacuate the army and the population of Crimea.



General Wrangel

.
Therefore, honor and glory to the Russian Black Sea Fleet and its crew

[know]

The further you go, the worse your comments become. Absolute uncritical subjectivity, a willingness to defend the people who brought Russia to ruin and the bloody executioners of the Russian people. Seeing only white in the whites and only black in the reds.

led to tragic consequences for many White Guards,
remaining in Crimea.
So they gave up, they didn't die - WHAT prevented them from fulfilling their promises?

They—through Wrangel's fault—failed to fulfill the clearly stated terms of surrender. There was a clear warning: if they refused within 24 hours, the remnants of the Crimean counterrevolution would be drowned in blood. Why, and on what grounds, should Frunze break his word and spare the Whites who refused to surrender? He had already done too much—he stopped the pursuit of the fleeing White troops and prevented their complete annihilation. And yet, the Crimean population harbored enormous hatred for Wrangel's men who plundered it—as even Slashchev wrote about in exile. Who in the army would have understood and not condemned a commander who broke his word? Wrangel, who concealed Frunze's offer from his troops, is undoubtedly the main culprit behind the subsequent repressions. And he is a thief who stole Russia's ships—and then disposed of them so ineptly.

[3x3zsave]

bloody executioners of the Russian people.
I wanted to ask: are those 3836 sailors who brought the ships to Bizerte also bloody executioners of the Russian people?

[know]

They were deceived by Wrangel, forcibly taken away by him. Many of them, had they known Frunze's terms, would likely have remained in their homeland and continued serving in the Soviet navy. Moreover, they would not have allowed Wrangel to steal their ships – they would have handed them over to Frunze.

[3x3zsave]

They are people deceived by Wrangel, forcibly taken away by him.
Less than six months later, the Kronstadt rebellion broke out. Who deceived these people?

[Olgovich]

Quote: vet

The further you go, the worse your comments become.

Quote: vet

who brought Russia to collapse, and the bloody executioners of the Russian people.

They brought about freedoms that had never been seen under the Reds.

I condemn the bloody executioners of the Russian people without question: never In the history of Russia there have never been so many millions of victims as under the Bolsheviks - just get this into your head fact

Quote: vet

See only white in white, and only black in red.

Just tell me how many hundreds of liters of Bavarian beer the Red Vlasovs of that time drank in Switzerland while the Whites were shedding blood for their homeland on the front lines of WWI.

Quote: vet

They—through Wrangel's fault—didn't fulfill the clearly stated terms of surrender. There was a clear warning—in case of refusal— drown in blood remnants of the Crimean counterrevolution

there was no longer any CR, but there were unarmed surrendered people-Why shoot them already?, for what?! Beasts? That's exactly what I'm talking about.

And yes, you don't understand Russian - Frunza has NO threats of reprisals against unarmed people - they are talking about THOSE WHO RESIST, not those who have not surrendered.

Quote: vet

And the thief who stole Russia's ships - and then disposed of them so ineptly

The thieves are the Bolsheviks, stole from the people of Russia his choice and the bloodshed that has drenched it for 36 years. I remember for the hundredth time the fact that no one has ever elected the Bolsheviks anywhere in any elections.

The fleet brilliantly fulfilled its mission - saving Russian citizens.

[know]

There were unarmed people who surrendered - why shoot them already?

Many of these "unarmed and surrendered" continued to form gangs and terrorize the Crimean population for several years. The Crimean population's hatred of the Whites was extreme; even before the repressions began, mass lynchings had begun. Stopping them and sorting out who was going where was very difficult. And it was precisely the Chekists and Revolutionary Committee members who saved many from lynchings.

[Olgovich]

Quote: vet

Many of these “unarmed and surrendered” remained in gangs for several years

Do you even understand what you're writing? No.
How could those who surrendered... form gangs?

Quote: vet

And the Crimean population's hatred of the Whites was extreme; even before the repressions began, mass lynchings had begun, and it was very difficult to stop them and begin to sort out who was going where. And it was precisely the Chekists and Revolutionary Committee members who saved many from lynchings.

yeah - the executions of tens of thousands of Russian people.

And once again, you don't understand Russian. Frunza has NO threats of reprisals against unarmed people. It's about those who resist, not those who have not surrendered.

[know]

Frunza has NO threats of reprisals against unarmed people - they are talking about those who resist, not those who have not surrendered.

It is impossible to express it more clearly than Frunze:

I expect a response within 24 hours.White officers, our proposal places a colossal responsibility on you. If it is rejected, and the struggle will continue, then all the blame for the senselessly shed Russian blood will fall on you. The Red Army will drown the remnants of the Crimean counterrevolution in streams of your blood.".

Frunze makes a proposal in the style of Suvorov at Izmail:

“Twenty-four hours for reflection is the will; the first shot is already bondage; storm - death.

Only more detailed. A response within 24 hours – amnesty. No response within 24 hours – the Whites will be exterminated. Everything is clear, understandable, and leaves no room for misinterpretation. Wrangel didn't respond and hid the contents of Frunze's radiogram from his troops.

[Senior seaman]

Quote: vet

Frunze makes a proposal in the style of Suvorov at Izmail:

But Alexander Vasilyevich didn't shoot prisoners; on the contrary, he always immediately restored order after the assault to minimize the inevitable atrocities of wartime. This was true in Izmail and Warsaw.

[know]

Frunze didn't execute anyone either. That was the job of Béla Kun's Revolutionary Committee and the Special Departments of the Southern Front and the armies. Neither of these subordinated Frunze (they weren't military structures, but "political" ones)—they received orders from Moscow. And Frunze received clear orders from Lenin: if Wrangel's men refused to surrender, the offer of amnesty was not to be renewed. In other words, even if Frunze had wanted to somehow prevent it, "his reach was too short."

[Senior seaman]

How do you manage this? If it wasn't the commander-in-chief himself who executed them, and it was one thousand, not one hundred, then it's as if there weren't any executions...

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: vet

Frunze didn't execute anyone either. That was the job of Béla Kun's Revolutionary Committee and the Special Departments of the Southern Front and the armies. Neither of these subordinated Frunze (they weren't military structures, but "political" ones)—they received orders from Moscow. And Frunze received clear orders from Lenin: if Wrangel's men refused to surrender, the offer of amnesty was not to be renewed. In other words, even if Frunze had wanted to somehow prevent it, "his reach was too short."

Do you realize that you just buried Frunze alive and then danced a jig on his ultimatum?
So it turns out that if Wrangel had accepted the terms of capitulation, and then Bela Kun and his ilk had entered Crimea and committed terror, then “that wasn’t Frunze,” he would have kept his promises, right?
The question is actually very simple: is it permissible to commit mass terror against a surrendering enemy or not? All history, including the defeat of Germany, says no—and only you (in the best tradition of Béla Kun) claim that it is—that Russians with a wrong outlook on life can supposedly be shot.
There will be no conclusions. Everything is clear to me.

[know]

If the ultimatum's terms had been met, Frunze had the opportunity to fulfill his promises! And this is hardly surprising – in Novorossiysk, the remaining Whites immediately surrendered, and therefore there were no mass repressions. Even Lenin ordered Frunze not to revoke the amnesty, but merely not to renew his offer if Wrangel refused. But after the ultimatum expired, clear orders had already been issued from Moscow, and Frunze's hands were now tied.

[Olgovich]

Quote: vet

Only more detailed. A response within 24 hours means amnesty. No response within 24 hours means the Whites will be exterminated. Everything is clear, understandable, and leaves no room for misinterpretation.

not Russian at all: .

If there's no the struggle will continue

, and she IT'S ALREADY OVER, that's it, no one is fighting, everyone is registered, but they, who trusted and believed, were killed - when will it come to pass?!

And WHY did they kill him? Where's the trial, the investigation, etc.? Oh, nothing. They're just animals.

[know]

You stubbornly refuse to acknowledge Frunze's key condition: surrender negotiations must begin no later than 24 hours after he voiced his offer of amnesty. Suvorov put forward exactly the same conditions to the Turks at Izmail. Frunze demands that surrender negotiations begin not in three days or two weeks, but no later than 24 hours. The Whites, who refuse to negotiate, are effectively declared illegal. The responsibility of White officers in the event of a refusal to negotiate is clearly stated: they are held responsible "for the bloodshed" in which they and their soldiers will be "drowned." But the officers, through Wrangel's fault, did not learn of Frunze's offer. Wrangel himself refused to surrender on extremely lenient terms and deprived his soldiers and officers of this opportunity. He took the sin upon his soul,

[Olgovich]

Quote: vet

You stubbornly refuse to see Frunze's key condition: negotiations on capitulation must begin no later than 24 hours after he voiced his proposal for amnesty.

key

If the struggle continues

, but it's ALREADY OVER, that's it, no one is fighting, everyone is registered, and they, who trusted and believed, were killed - when will it come?!

WHERE it was later stated that people were killed because of....no response within 24 hoursWhat are you talking about?

And the mass of killed non-military women, old people, children - didn't they surrender in time either?

Once again, give me the statistics of those killed by animals.
No? What do you have besides hatred?

Quote: vet

Wrangel himself refused to surrender on extremely lenient terms and deprived his soldiers and officers of this opportunity. He took the sin upon his soul,

Petr Nikolaevich saved hundreds of thousands of Russian people from the most brutal reprisals, camps, and mutilation of souls by crazy psychopaths 1925-1954

I praise the hero who sees and hears
Like an enemy, in the darkness creeps towards us, breathes.
I praise the hero’s courage and strength,
Who fights enemies with an iron hand.

I praise Yezhov, who
The gap destroyed the serpent burrows
Who stood up, threatening the unfinished enemies
Guarding the country and its harvest.

May you forever be decorated with the Order of Lenin,
Our vigilant guardian of factories and fields

[know]

a mass of killed non-military women, old people, children

The Reds only killed children and women in the drug-induced delirium of the émigré liar Melgunov. Even the Tatar nationalist Sultangaliev wrote in his denunciations to Moscow that White soldiers and officers hiding in Crimea were being sought, captured, and executed, allegedly by local residents who hated them. And note: if these White Guards have to be sought and captured, it means they haven't surrendered!

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: vet

The Reds killed children and women only in the drug-induced delirium of the emigrant liar Melgunov.

And based on this "drug nonsense" Dzerzhinsky had to send a stop order, right?
Alexey, do you seriously think it's normal to kill thousands of Russians just because they have "wrong" views on life?
If yes, go see a psychiatrist.

[know]

A stop order – yes. Bela Kun was seriously out of control. But what makes you think he ordered the murder of children? There's a commendation sheet for the head of the Southern Front's Special Department, Yevdokimov, stating the reasons for his award – the exact number of officers, generals, tsarist officials, and officials of Denikin and Wrangel, and so on, identified in Crimea. Including 50 generals, 30 former governors, 300 White counterintelligence agents (they were especially hated). A total of 12 people – and that's the most realistic figure of those repressed. And no women or children. This is black PR by émigré "historians."

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: vet

And no women or children.

So I don’t write anywhere about women and children.
As the saying goes, I keep quiet about what I don't know.

[Olgovich]

Quote: vet

The Reds killed children and women only in a drug-induced delirium.

Only the Reds, in a drug-induced delirium, deny this; only Yalta local historian Leonid Abramenko has identified 800 names of murdered civilians out of several thousand, including the paralyzed 76-year-old Baryatinskaya, her pregnant daughter, her 70-year-old father-in-law, etc.—you study documentsYour lying power, thank God, is over and its crimes can no longer be hidden.

Once again, give me official statistics on those killed by animals - they killed without counting or recording names, like cattle in a slaughterhouse.

[know]

They forgot to mention that the Reds roasted and ate babies. It's shameful and disgusting to read such nonsense in the comments here, from a Russophobic Moldovan who has long since lost touch with Russia and revels in the lies of the enemies of the USSR and modern Russia.

[Olgovich]

Quote: vet

They forgot to write that the Reds fried and ate babies.

the atrocities they committed are no less impressive

Quote: vet

a Russophobic Moldovan who has long lost contact with Russia

This is for you Bolshevik-Russophobes, Novorossiya is not Russia and you have raped it with your USSR for 70 years, destroying Russian monuments and Russians, but not for normal Russians.

Quote: vet

enjoying the lies of the enemies of the USSR and modern Russia

You enjoy the "truth" of Pravda 1930-53, but for normal people this is not enough

[know]

Anti-communism and anti-Sovietism in modern Russia are synonymous with Russophobia. You are a clinical Russophobe, incapable of rational argument. If you were a Russian citizen, you would be labeled a foreign agent. Russia would be declared a foreign agent.

[Olgovich]

Quote: vet

Anti-communism and anti-Sovietism in modern Russia are synonyms for Russophobia. You are a clinical Russophobe,

The Soviets stole 4 million square kilometers from Russia, brought them to the Russian Cross and robbed and robbed for the benefit of everyone and everything.

never Russia has not suffered such horrific losses in people and territory as under you.

But

Quote: vet

You are a clinical Russophobe who does not accept rational arguments.

, seeing nothing

Quote: vet

If you were a Russian citizen, you would be given the status of a foreign agent. Russia would recognize you as a foreign agent.

Phantom pains in the communist order? You've been gone for a long time.

[know]

How could those who surrendered... form gangs?

There were plenty of those who hadn't surrendered—those who hadn't managed to escape, their hands bloodied to the shoulders and with no hope of mercy. About 10 people. Of whom the future polar explorer Papanin, then commandant of the Crimean Cheka, wrote:

"What kind of gangs and anti-Soviet groups weren't there in Crimea in 1921! They terrorized the population, raided cities and towns, disrupted Soviet government events... We often encountered beasts, mistakenly called people. There were some cutthroats who thought nothing of killing a person, even a small child, just for the sake of boredom..."

[know]

By the way, do some simple calculations. The actual number of Whites repressed in Crimea is 10-15,000. 150,000 is pure science fiction, in the style of Solzhenitsyn, who held more prisoners in a single North Kazakhstan camp than in the entire USSR. Ten thousand of these Whites were bandits who terrorized Crimea—and they weren't eliminated all at once, in two or three days, but gradually, over the course of many months. That leaves, at the very most, two or three thousand, maybe five thousand "innocent victims." Agreed, that's a lot. But where during the revolution did anything happen without tragic excesses? And what was the cause of these excesses? Was it hatred for the "former masters"? And why did they behave in such a way that everyone hated them?

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: vet

The real number of repressed whites in Crimea is 10-15 thousand people.

That's all? Ugh, why count them?

As of 2025, the population of Anadyr is approximately 13,200 people.

Your idols have wiped out the entire population of a city. Rejoice.

[know]

Here the population of an entire city was destroyed by your idols

And how many towns in Siberia were wiped out by the sadist Semyonov? Or by the psychopath Annenkov in Semirechye? How much is Shkuro responsible for? Why, until recently, were the vicious watchdogs in Siberia called Kolchaks? Hatred of the Whites was overwhelming among the people—hence the desire to exterminate them—including among ordinary, rank-and-file Red Army soldiers, not just the commissars. And they themselves had provoked this hatred.

[Trapperxnumx]

So why did the Bolsheviks stoop to the level of outright bandits?
I'm not defending the Semenovites or other scumbags in any way. It's just that it sounds like you're saying, "If they can do it, then so can we."
I'm telling you – no, it's impossible. Because the rule of law comes first. As soon as we allow a deviation from the rule of law, we immediately destroy one of the foundations of the state.
And yes. I apologize for the excessive emotionality in the previous posts. It seems it's time to wrap this up.

[Grancer81]

But there's no need to lie so blatantly, Mr. Dmitry. Your words suggest the opposite, that you're trying your best to justify the white thugs and paying no attention to their crimes.

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: Grencer81

But there's no need to lie so blatantly, Mr. Dmitry. Your words suggest the opposite, that you're trying your best to justify the white thugs and paying no attention to their crimes.

Give examples of such protection. At least one. Can you?

[Grancer81]

Do you have a memory problem? Or maybe I should sift through all the articles about the Civil War, where you and Olga write justifications for the Whites and their crimes?

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: Grencer81

Do you have a memory problem? Or maybe I should sift through all the articles about the Civil War, where you and Olga write justifications for the Whites and their crimes?

Then don’t make accusations if you can’t back them up and learn to be responsible for your words.
All the best.

[Olgovich]

Quote: vet

there were plenty of those who didn't give up

There were 2 orders of magnitude more who surrendered - they were destroyed

Quote: vet

By the way, do some simple calculations. The actual number of Whites repressed in Crimea is 10-15.

By the way, please provide the local government's statistics on registered, arrested, and killed individuals. Your guesses are the least interesting.

Or did you kill and not keep track? Yes, that's right.

And Papanin went crazy from the blood...

[Olgovich]

Monastyrev, submarine commander, evacuation from Crimea:

The sea was calm. A light breeze rocked the boat with that gentle sway that can soothe the nerves and give the soul a rest from sad and gloomy experiences. The sun was warm. Our ladies, involuntary passengers on the submarine, went aboveground for some fresh air, which they so desperately needed inside. From Cape Fiolent, we set off on a course we knew so well during the war. I can't remember how many times I've traveled this course. But how different was the feeling experienced then, full of proud impulses and fantastical dreams, from the one each of us experienced that day. The shores of Crimea, the blooming, rich garden of Russia, quickly receded from us. Now they were no longer visible. One peak, Ai-Petri, lingered in the sun with its snow-covered mantle, as if it wanted to imprint itself more deeply and brightly on our memory, leaving a lasting trace... But soon it, too, disappeared. Nothing anymore connected us to our native shore. Only one painfully tangible thought was an invisible link, a thread that refused to break. Each of us clutched at it like a drowning man clutching at a straw, hoping to return and once again see our native forests, steppes, and farmsteads.

Luckily, the weather remained fine, and the women and children didn't suffer from seasickness. Otherwise, it could have been a nightmare. There was no space inside the boat, everything was completely occupied. All the cabins and the wardroom were given over to women, and yet there was not enough space; some of them were forced to sleep on the deck. The officers and crew huddled wherever they could. From the bridge above, one could see to the right and left, ahead and behind, transport heading toward the Bosphorus. It was some kind of exodus, unprecedented, something that had never before been seen in the history of nations..

[know]

there was some kind of outcome, unprecedented,

The outcome is Wrangel's fault. There's no reason to believe Frunze wouldn't have fulfilled his promise had Wrangel's army capitulated in a timely manner. He even offered free passage out of the country—without all the horrors of fighting upon boarding ships and transportation to nowhere in brutal conditions. Frunze always and everywhere kept his promises—even his enemies acknowledged this.

[Trapperxnumx]

Quote: vet

There is no reason to believe that Frunze would not have fulfilled his promise.

"You know me, I always keep my promise.
It just didn't work out this time." @
After Crimea's liberation from Wrangel, there was widespread terror, including against individuals innocent of war crimes. Denying this is absolutely stupid and futile. Just as justifying it is equally futile.
If the Bolsheviks (including Dzerzhinsky) themselves were forced to intervene in the situation, it means it had already gone beyond all bounds.
Forgive me, but after this, your pathetic attempts to justify these extrajudicial reprisals look simply disgusting.

[know]

By the way, there were articles here about this - which said that the real number of those repressed was 10-15 thousand people (10 times less than the émigré liar Melgunov, who was nowhere near in Crimea at the time, wrote in exile. That's also quite a lot, of course. And the people responsible for the terror were named - and, unexpectedly, it turned out not to be the party secretary (then - effectively the head of the personnel department) Zemlyachka, but the chairman of the Revolutionary Committee Bela Kun, who took revenge on everyone for the defeat of the Hungarian revolution, and the people who headed the Special Departments of the Southern Front and the armies. It also reported what the White Guards did in Crimea - both those who fled and those who remained. Neither the residents of Crimea nor the Red Army soldiers had much to love about these scumbags.

[know]

You know me, I always keep my promise.
It just didn't work out this time.

Frunze got it all. What did he promise? A full amnesty for those who surrendered within 24 hours. Those who didn't would be drowned in blood. Didn't surrender? Didn't want the first part of that promise? Now it was time to fulfill the second part: a man said, a man did. This is why Frunze was respected in the troops: he always kept his word and didn't go back on his word, regardless of the circumstances. And the fact that the Whites didn't take advantage of Frunze's amnesty because of Wrangel—well, that's why the Black Baron is now burning in hell.

[Olgovich]

Quote: vet

There is no reason to believe that Frunze would not have fulfilled his promise in the event of the timely capitulation of Wrangel's army. He even offered free passage out of the country - without all these horrors.

-You don't understand Russian. Frunza has NO threats of reprisals against unarmed people. It's about those who resist, not those who surrender.

People did the right thing by fleeing and saving their children from the horror of reprisals, famine, cannibalism, camps and these nightmares.

Greetings to you, Stalin's devoted friend!
And the enemy is wary, embittered and bitter.
Listen: villains crawl at night
Crawling along ravines, bear savages
Nagans and bombs, cholera bacilli ...
But you meet them, strong and severe
Tested in the flame of the battle of Hedgehogs.
Enemies of our lives, enemies of millions

[Andrey Loginov]

BIZERTA 2: 1991. Liepaja. The naval base is subject to disbandment and dismantling. Discipline is low, everyone is trading - whatever they can, some admirals even non-ferrous metals. After 08/91 and the dispersal of the State Emergency Committee, no one holds on to anything anymore... The DTSch is transferred to Baltiysk, families live on ships, because there is nowhere else. Maintenance is not paid regularly and no one knows where we are heading... the fleet is being broken up. In the city, for the meeting, it is not recommended by form, because the population is generally hostile. "And a military man!!! That's not it!!!!! So, that means!!!!" - ........... the echo haunted for a very long time.

[Andrey Loginov]

BIZERTA 2: 1991. Liepaja. The naval base is subject to disbandment and dismantling. Discipline is low, everyone is trading in whatever they can, some admirals even in non-ferrous metals. After 08/91 and the dispersal of the State Emergency Committee, no one holds on to anything anymore...... The DTSCH is transferred to Baltiysk, families live on ships because there is nowhere else. Upkeep is not paid regularly and no one knows where we are heading....... the fleet is being broken up. Evening, two Zhiguli are moored on the wall and two civilians are sawing an EM trawl with a hacksaw (it contains red copper). During the day, these are the MPC commanders from our brigade (they need to feed their families somehow).
Going to the city gathering is not recommended, as the population is generally hostile. It's a good thing they don't drown you on barges and shoot you with machine guns.
"But a military man!!! That's not it!!!!! So, dumb.... means!!!!" - ........... the echo haunted for a very long time. Also, not everyone is accepted into the merchant navy, and those who became accountants were considered to be well-off. Everything, having described the circulation, returned to the starting point..... (from the life of a lieutenant, graduating from the M.V. Frunze Naval School '90).

That lieutenant had been working his way up to his profession for nine years (two diplomas), and wasn't inclined to listen to any nonsense about himself. Now, 35 years later, everything is generally fine with him. Some would say even too fine.

[Grancer81]

Okay, this is Latvia, Libau, but when do they say such words, and not just words, to you in Russia, in Leningrad? Or in your native Siberia, where you went on vacation?

[Fitter65]

Wrangel himself moved aboard the cruiser General Kornilov on November 14 at 14:50 p.m., when power in Sevastopol had already passed to the Revolutionary Committee, and only on October 15 did units of the Red Army enter the city.

What's up with the dates?

[Alexander]

And what an elite they wasted!