The armored cruiser Bayan. In search of a prototype.

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The armored cruiser Bayan. In search of a prototype.

The armored cruiser "Bayan", which fought the Japanese at Port Arthur... Among the fans of the naval stories A rather ambivalent attitude toward this ship has developed. Some consider the Bayan to be optimal in terms of its overall characteristics, while others consider it a complete waste of public funds, as its firepower was significantly inferior to that of Japan's armored cruisers.

In this series of articles, I will examine the design history of the Bayan, its performance characteristics, tactical role, and combat potential in comparison with Japanese armored cruisers. I will also highlight the combat episodes in which the cruiser participated. Based on all this, I will offer my conclusions on the success of this armored cruiser. And, of course, my esteemed readers are free to disagree with me.

As is well known, the tactical and technical requirements for the future Bayan were formulated in May 1897 and supplemented in June of the same year. Let's consider the views on the role and missions of cruisers formed by the admirals of the Russian Imperial Navy. fleet by this time.

On the tasks of the Russian Empire fleet in general and its cruisers in particular


In the first half of 1897, the navy's objectives remained the same as those formulated for the 1881–1900 shipbuilding program. The new shipbuilding program, adopted for 1895–1902, refined the ship composition, including bringing it into line with the country's economic capabilities, but the navy's objectives remained unchanged. I wrote about this in detail in the article On the shipbuilding programs of the Russian Empire in the late 19th century – the emergence of the Japanese threat, I will briefly remind you of them here.

The Black Sea was considered the most important naval theater for the Russian Empire. In the event of war with Turkey, the fleet was to seize the Bosphorus and Dardanelles, ensuring the transport and landing of a 30-strong landing force. The Siberian Naval Flotilla was expected to assist coastal defense, but nothing more. The Baltic Fleet was to maintain primacy in its theater and remain the strongest compared to any foreign power with access to the Baltic Sea, including Germany. Furthermore, in the event of war with China, Japan, or another country, the Baltic Fleet was to dispatch a squadron of battleships to the Far East. The dispatch of battleships from the Black Sea was permitted, but due to the priority of that theater, the Baltic Fleet was considered the primary "donor."

Furthermore, it was planned to create a powerful squadron of ocean-going cruisers in the Far East to operate against British ocean lanes. Naturally, this squadron was also to be formed from the Baltic Fleet.

In accordance with the above, the cruisers of the Russian Imperial Navy faced two tasks:

1. Interruption of enemy ocean communications;

2. Service with battleship squadrons.

Cruisers for fighting communications


It could be said that all cruisers of the Russian Imperial Navy trace their lineage back to the corvette class, but that wouldn't be entirely accurate. When the Russian Navy entered the era of armor and steam, cruising duties were assigned to ships of three classes: frigates, corvettes, and clippers. Clippers were intended to be used as ocean-going cruisers, and they played a crucial role in the development of the Russian Navy and the exploration of the Far East. However, this class never saw further development in our Navy and faded from the scene of history, never having evolved into anything. The frigates, however, have an interesting history.

By 1860, it was already clear to Russian sailors that large ships needed to be protected with armor. Construction began on the first and last wooden armored frigates of the Russian Navy: the Sevastopol and the Petropavlovsk, which were delivered to sailors in 1865 and 1867, respectively.

The next Russian ships, the Prince Pozharsky and the Minin, were designed to have an iron hull and rifled guns. artillery, so at the time of their laying, they were planned to be armed with eight very powerful 300-pound, 229-mm caliber guns. And this is where the terminological quandary arose.

The fact is that, according to the then-existing "table of ranks," these ships could not be considered frigates, hence their designation as armored corvettes. However, since their capabilities clearly conflicted with the classification of sailing fleets, they remained in service as corvettes for less than six months, after which they were reclassified as armored frigates.

In fact, the "frigate" class became a very flexible concept in the Russian Imperial Navy in the 60s. It's worth remembering that alongside ships designed for ocean voyages, such as the Knyaz Pozharsky and Minin, turret frigates of the Admiral Lazarev and Admiral Spiridov classes were also being laid down. These were low-sided, multi-turret monitors suitable only for coastal defense.


Armored frigate Admiral Chichagov

But while the "monitor" role in the Russian Navy never developed further, the Minin and Knyaz Pozharsky laid the foundation for a generation of distinctive Russian armored frigates, later reclassified as armored cruisers. Their types varied greatly, such as the 5800-ton Dmitry Donskoy and the gigantic Rurik, with an actual displacement of 11,566 tons. Some were quite successful, others less so. But all of them (with perhaps only the Nakhimov being debatable) shared a common purpose: they were single-handed cruisers designed for raiding ocean lanes, which determined their characteristics and design features.

The only truly genuine exception to this rule were the Peresvet-class ships. However, given that their combat capabilities corresponded to those of second-class battleships, they should still be considered not cruisers, but rather battleships adapted for cruising operations. Undoubtedly, in official documents they were initially referred to as armored cruisers, but they were ultimately commissioned as squadron battleships.

We can only state that all armored cruisers of the Russian Empire, right up to the Bayan, were built for the task of interrupting the enemy’s ocean communications.

As for corvettes, things were simple. While frigates, after a brief hiatus with "armored corvettes," evolved into armored cruisers, corvettes evolved into armored-deck cruisers.

Initially, the Russian Imperial Navy was not particularly fond of ships of this class. Our first armored corvettes, Vityaz and Rynda, were begun in the same year as the seventh armored frigate (counting from Knyaz Pozharsky), Admiral Nakhimov. Three years later, in 1886, the third ship of this class, Admiral Kornilov, was laid down at a French shipyard. After this, the Navy took a nine-year hiatus, until 1895, when, again in France, construction began on the armored cruiser Svetlana, commissioned by Russia and discussed below. It's worth noting that prior to Svetlana, all of our armored cruisers were designed for ocean-going warfare, and Svetlana itself was not commissioned until 1898.

Cruisers for service with the squadron


It may seem strange, but for the Naval Ministry in the 90s, squadron cruisers were a new and unfamiliar concept. The reason is simple: for a long time, the Russian Empire lacked squadrons with which cruisers could serve. In the 60s, the star of the propeller-driven battleship had finally faded, but even if that hadn't been the case, such ships could never have represented a squadron of seaworthy ironclads. Such ironclads weren't built in Russia for a long time: shipbuilding programs emphasized ocean-going cruisers on the one hand, and coastal defense ships on the other, the best of which were multi-turreted, low-sided monitors.

Our first relatively seaworthy battleship, the Pyotr Velikiy, despite all its undeniable merits, was built as a single unit in 1877. The situation only began to improve in the early 90s, with the commissioning of the squadron battleships Imperator Nikolai I and Imperator Alexander II. But by that time, the need for large ships capable of long-distance voyages was so great that these battleships did not form a squadron, but instead sailed to New York, the Mediterranean, and the Far East.

The Black Sea Fleet was a different matter, with a force of three modern and powerful Ekaterina II-class battleships created in the early 90s (the fourth, Georgiy Pobedonosets, was commissioned later). While we had an armored squadron, due to the specific nature of its missions, the Black Sea Fleet lacked anything even remotely resembling a cruiser. Perhaps the only thing missing was the Kubanets-class gunboats, but with their speed of 13 knots, performing cruising missions with a squadron was utterly impossible.

Thus it came to pass that by 1897, the Russian Imperial Navy undoubtedly understood the specifics of ocean voyages and long-distance cruises very well, but it had absolutely no experience with cruisers serving in armored squadrons. It also lacked cruisers capable of such service. Consequently, when the Russian Empire began to form squadrons of modern battleships, admirals, lacking any experience, had to somehow figure out what kind of cruisers they would need.

The first armored cruiser since the Kornilov, the Svetlana, ordered from France in 1895, although capable of serving with a squadron, had a completely different purpose. The General Admiral needed a yacht that could also serve as a cruiser. Naturally, the Naval Ministry made an effort to obtain a good cruiser that could also serve as Alexei Alexandrovich's yacht, and to some extent, they succeeded. The Svetlana turned out to be a decent ship for its time, but it wasn't specifically designed for squadron service; rather, it was a second-rank general-purpose cruiser. In our fleet, it was listed as a first-rank cruiser only because it was inappropriate for a General Admiral to sail a ship of the second rank.


Armored cruiser Svetlana

Therefore, in the first half of 1897, the only cruisers even remotely conceived for squadron service were the newly laid-down armored cruisers of the Diana class. But even here, for cost reasons, the Naval Ministry deemed it impossible to build a series of specialized ships. It wanted cruisers equally suitable for squadron service and for sea-lane warfare.

To do this, the MTC first looked at what was being built in England, France, and Germany. Based on what they saw, they determined that the future cruisers would have a fairly powerful armament, including a main battery (as of 1897) of ten 6-inch guns. Their speed was set at a very high level for the time—20 knots without boosting their boilers, despite the fact that most foreign cruisers used as comparisons did not reach such a speed even with boost. Furthermore, the cruisers were required to carry an impressive coal reserve, reaching 972 tons at full displacement. Unsurprisingly, the Diana-class cruisers turned out to be significantly larger than the armored deck cruisers of the second rank of the British and French navies.

The Naval Ministry was well aware that the Diana was a compromise cruiser. They also saw that progress in naval shipbuilding was progressing very rapidly, and they suspected that in the very near future, the world's navies would be building ships far more advanced than the Diana. Therefore, further production of this less-than-successful design was out of the question.

Where did the word "Bayan" come from?


The shipbuilding program of 1895–1902 envisioned, in addition to ships of other classes, the construction of six first-class cruisers. The type of one of these was determined by Emperor Nicholas II, who ordered the construction of a Rossiya-class cruiser: the Gromoboy. Of the remaining five, four were already under construction: the Svetlana in France and three Diana-class cruisers at domestic shipyards. Consequently, another cruiser could be built, but abroad, as all the large slipways in Russia were occupied by other ships.

The Ministry of the Navy's gaze naturally turned to France. And it's not at all necessary to believe that this was due solely to the weaknesses of the Admiral-General, who gravitated toward all things French. It's worth remembering that France was the world's second-largest naval power, yet it was quite friendly toward the Russian Empire and had considerable experience building cruisers.

The problem was that we had nothing to turn to the French with.

The Russian Imperial Navy certainly didn't need another ocean-going raider. The Naval Ministry wanted a cruiser to serve with the squadron, the shortage of which was already becoming acute. But, as mentioned above, we had no experience operating such cruisers, nor even a general idea for their use.

And again, there's no point in accusing our admirals of incompetence. They certainly had a general understanding of what tasks a cruiser in a squadron could be assigned. It was also clear that the Diana-class cruisers weren't cutting edge and that better cruisers could be built. But just how much better remains to be seen.

What should we do in such a situation? Announce an international competition? But to do so, we needed to formulate the requirements for the cruiser, and that was precisely what the Naval Ministry couldn't do. There was only one option left:

1. First, consider the proposals of shipbuilding companies for various types of cruisers and understand the approximate performance characteristics that could be expected to be achieved;

2. Formulate the tasks that the cruiser must solve and specify its performance characteristics, thereby forming the assignment for its development;

3. Based on this task, hold a competition and select the best project.

This is exactly what the Naval Ministry did.

Step 1: French Sentences


The task of selecting a contractor was entrusted to Captain 1st Rank A. M. Abaza, who, while in France overseeing the construction of the Svetlana, had the opportunity to familiarize himself with the realities of French shipbuilding. He approached the management of Forges et Chantiers de Méditerranée, where the Svetlana was being built, with a proposal to build a first-class cruiser for the Russian Empire to serve with the squadron. He likely shocked the management with the explanation that the exact type of cruiser needed was unknown, and therefore a wide variety of designs should be submitted for the discretion of Forges et Chantiers. Apparently, the only parameter specified by the Russian side was a displacement of 6000 tons.

Well, the customer is always right, especially since Forge et Chantiers was not at all willing to turn down the tempting contract. Therefore, A. M. Abaza was soon able to present five variants of a first-class cruiser. Unfortunately, the data on them is not entirely exhaustive, so I'll present what I have.

Project No. 1. Cruiser "Svetlana", increased by 2000 tons. By increasing her displacement to 5800 tons and eliminating the prince's quarters, the French planned to mount very powerful artillery on her—two 8-inch and fourteen 6-inch guns. This cruiser's speed was expected to exceed 22 knots, while maintaining a significant range. However, this increase in performance left no room for vertical protection—the Svetlana, having gained 2000 tons, remained an armored cruiser. The French themselves did not consider this a good option, stating that an armored belt for a cruiser was highly desirable, but that it could only be achieved by reducing her speed and coal reserves.

Project No. 2. Cruiser "Svetlana", increased by 1000 tons. Its displacement was supposed to be 4800 tons, but unfortunately, I don't know its other performance characteristics. It was an intermediate variant between Option 1 and the Svetlana, which was then under construction.

Project No. 3. Armored cruiser "Dupuy-de-Lom". The design displacement was supposed to be 6296,26 tons (I can't tell whether these were metric or long tons), but in reality, the cruiser was overloaded. The design speed was 20 knots, but during trials it only reached 19,73 knots, and that was with the boilers running at high speed. Armament consisted of 2×194mm, 6×164mm, 6×65mm, 8×47mm, and 8×37mm guns, and 4×450mm torpedo tubes. Vertical armor was "all 100"—the sides, turrets, and conning tower—all 100mm thick. The armored deck was carapace and consisted of three layers: two layers of 5mm standard shipbuilding steel, and a third layer of 20mm armor, or more precisely, steel with improved mechanical properties.

Literally everything about this cruiser was striking. The placement of the main and secondary guns in turrets. The highly original artillery arrangement, which meant that a salvo to the bow and stern, at least theoretically, was stronger than a broadside, as two 194mm guns were mounted on either side of the cruiser, amidships, while three of the six 164mm guns could fire to the bow and four to the broadside. The enormous ram, projecting 9 meters forward. But most importantly, the cruiser's fully armored side.


In fact, there was no "super-long" ram on the Dupuy-de-Lome—the shipbuilders simply cut off the stem and the hull behind it in an effort to reduce the weight of the ship's bow. This reduced the weight of the hull structure, as well as the side area, thereby reducing the need for armor protection. Reducing the cruiser's length, however, was impossible, as this would have reduced its speed—as the saying goes, "length is fleeting."

As for the fantastical armored side area, it arose from trials in 1886, when an old French battleship was subjected to shells loaded with melinite. The tests demonstrated the extreme destructive effect of this explosive on unarmored structures. According to the designers' plans, the Dupuy-de-Lôme could operate along the shipping lanes like a conventional cruiser, but it was also capable of destroying enemy battleships with a hail of melinite shells, while being almost completely protected from their effects.

A. M. Abaza's opinion on this ship is interesting. While not fundamentally opposed to the concept of a turret cruiser, he noted that the Dupuy-de-Lôme did not seem optimal for the Russian Navy, and if such a ship were to be built, it should be designed using the domestic Admiral Nakhimov as a basis. A. M. Abaza believed that a good cruiser could be developed from the Nakhimov by improving its lines and increasing the power of its engines to reach a speed of 21 knots. The gallant captain of the first rank was so enthusiastic about the idea that he discussed this option with representatives of Forges et Chantiers and received their full consent, should the client so desire, to undertake the reworking of the Admiral Nakhimov design in this direction.

Project No. 4. Armored cruiser "Potu" (It might be more correct to call it "Potuo", but this is not certain). Displacement is 5374 tons, speed is 19 knots. Armor: belt 35–60 mm (according to other sources - 58 mm), deck in the horizontal part - 45 mm, slopes - 85 mm (according to other sources - 38 and 68 mm respectively, and according to A. M. Abaza - 63 mm), conning tower - 230 mm, turrets - 140–170 mm. Armament: 2×194-mm, 10×138,6-mm, 10×47-mm, 8×37-mm guns and 4×450-mm torpedo tubes.


Armored cruiser Pothuau

The cruiser, it must be said, was quite unique. The French, having begun construction of the Dupuy-de-Lôme, nevertheless deemed her too expensive for serial production. Therefore, the Dupuy-de-Lôme remained a single example, and four armored cruisers of the Admiral Charnet class were laid down in France. These were a scaled-down version of the Dupuy-de-Lôme: their displacement did not exceed 4812 tons, their armament was the same, and their armor was lightened. Like their predecessor, they failed to achieve their designed speed, reaching only 18,4 knots instead of 19 knots.

This speed was deemed too modest and raised concerns that the cruisers would be incapable of effectively pirating the shipping lanes. Therefore, it was decided to slightly increase the displacement of the next cruiser and reduce its armor, thereby achieving a speed of 19 knots.

Despite all their efforts, the Potu only briefly exceeded 19 knots, and that was with forced air. Overall, the French's performance was highly questionable. A. M. Abaza, who had the opportunity to inspect the Potu, found it extremely unsuccessful:



The cruiser is heavy and clumsy both in its external form and, especially, in its internal arrangement and structure.

In addition, he noted that the 19-knot speed was achieved in extremely artificial conditions, and therefore in real operation the Potu would hardly be able to go faster than 16 knots.

It is worth noting that such an assessment could not in any way affect the reputation of the engineers of "Forge et Chantiers", because they did not develop this cruiser - the company only built it according to the issued drawings.

Project No. 5. Citadel cruiser. The displacement was 5500 tons, and the cruising range was stated to be truly mind-boggling – 12,000 miles. Speed ​​was 22 or 24 knots. "depending on the thickness of the armor"All I know about the artillery is that it consisted of 12 guns, and that they included 8-inch guns in turrets located at the bow and stern of the ship. Probably 2x8-inch and 10x6-inch guns. The overall arrangement of the guns was in a purely French style and ensured a powerful longitudinal fire: seven guns could fire forward, five at the stern.

The armor was particularly unique. Between the 8-inch gun turrets, that is, along most of the cruiser's length, and even above its most important machinery (engines, boilers, and apparently medium-caliber ammunition magazines), there was no full armor deck; only slopes from it were present. Instead of horizontal armor, casemates for the deck guns were installed. "internal longitudinal, inclined armored walls", which, according to the designers, were supposed to replace the horizontal armored deck.

All of the above proposals were considered at a meeting of the shipbuilding department of the MTC on April 27, 1897, in the presence of all department heads, as well as naval engineers E. E. Gulyaev and N. E. Titov, and artillery experts K. T. Dubrov and A. F. Brink. The head of the MTC, Rear Admiral N. I. Skrydlov, presided over the meeting.

The meeting found the French proposals unsatisfactory for various reasons, which I will not list in detail here. The conclusion was that when choosing a promising cruiser type,

It is impossible to limit oneself to considering only the types presented by the plant, but it is best to compare the latest typical examples of cruisers from different naval powers.

Which was done immediately.

The following were taken as “typical samples”:

British armored cruiser Arrogant. Displacement - 5,850 tons, speed - 18-19 knots, armor: deck - 37-51 mm, on the slopes - 76 mm. Armament: 4x6-inch, 6x120-mm, 8x3-inch, 3x47-mm guns and 3x457-mm torpedo tubes;

German armored cruiser Victoria LouiseDisplacement: up to 6559 tons, speed: up to 19,1 knots, armor: deck: 40–100 mm, casemates and conning tower: 100 mm. Armament: 2×210-mm guns in turrets, 8×150-mm, 10×88-mm guns, and 3×450-mm torpedo tubes.

But the real star of this meeting was a completely different ship. It was the Esmeralda, the newest Elswick cruiser, just built in England for Chile.


In fact, there was much to admire here: according to the data available to the MTC, this ship, with a displacement of 7000 tons, developed a speed of 23,4 knots, carried an armor belt of 152 mm over 3/4 of the ship’s length with a carapace deck of 38–51 mm and had powerful artillery consisting of 2×8-inch, 18×6-inch, 8×3-inch, 10×47-mm guns, as well as 3×450-mm torpedo tubes.

Needless to say, the Esmeralda looked far superior to all the other cruiser designs considered at the MTC meeting? But one shouldn't think the MTC was swayed by the advertising brochures of the Esmeralda's builder, Armstrong. The MTC was well aware that such high qualities had been purchased at the expense of something else, perhaps something important, something the MTC was unwilling to compromise. Were the hull and machinery of the newest British-built Chilean cruiser overly lightweight? It was known that the Esmeralda lacked a double bottom, and that her guns were mounted openly, without armor protection, which was considered unacceptable for a Russian ship.

The MTC meeting concluded that none of the cruisers it considered fully met the requirements of the Russian Imperial Navy. However, the head of the Naval Ministry was advised:

...to the discretion that when drafting the cruiser project, the Chilean cruiser Esmeralda be taken as a basis in relation to the overall set of achieved combat qualities, but that it be proposed to the same French firm or other foreign manufacturers who will draft the project, without in any case deviating from the displacement of the cruiser Pallada (not exceeding 6000 tons), to more balanced combat qualities of the cruiser in comparison with the Esmeralda...

Thus, the Naval Ministry had chosen a starting point for the tactical and technical characteristics of the future cruiser. This had taken the first step, and they could now move on to the next step: defining the missions and performance characteristics of the future cruiser.

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  1. +6
    13 May 2026 05: 29
    Excellent topic, and the author's presentation is, as always, superb. I believe there's a technical error with the cruiser Arrogant. Its displacement is 5850, not just 850...
    1. +4
      13 May 2026 07: 11
      Quote: Victor Masyuk
      Displacement 5850, not just 850....

      Thanks, Victor. I don't know what to do with this anymore. The draft says exactly 5,850 t.
      1. +2
        13 May 2026 18: 55
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        In the draft - exactly 5,850 tons
        Well, there I was, thinking they'd lost the zero. I was wondering why, with such a displacement, it was so inferior to the Germans in armor and armament. But even so, these are surprisingly modest characteristics for a displacement of almost 6000 tons. Maybe it has a very long endurance?
  2. -2
    13 May 2026 05: 40
    The armored cruiser "Bayan" is a waste of money, especially given the knowledge of the nuclear reactor construction program.
    1. 0
      13 May 2026 06: 00
      In general, "Bayan" is a slightly modified (for two cars) "Dupleix".
    2. +7
      13 May 2026 09: 23
      In my opinion, "Sleepy Goddesses" is more of a waste of money than "Bayan"...
      1. +3
        13 May 2026 11: 42
        It's a matter of perspective. The Bogeys were, after all, the first (specifically) armored-deck cruisers built at domestic shipyards. Allowances can and should be made for their performance characteristics. She's nowhere near the Askold. Then again, the leading Leningrad isn't Tashkent.
      2. +2
        13 May 2026 12: 00
        Goddesses are not even a waste of money, they are pure sabotage.
      3. +2
        15 May 2026 16: 03
        Quote: faiver
        In my opinion, "Sleepy Goddesses" is more of a waste of money than "Bayan"...

        They were designed and laid down as cheaper raiders than Rurik, against England, when the program for strengthening the Japanese fleet was unknown.
        And even they could have been used wisely as raiders with a conventional base in Saigon and the bays of Annam.
    3. +3
      13 May 2026 11: 59
      It's doubly offensive that, right across the street, in Livorno and Genoa, perfectly adequate Garibaldian-class ironclads were being built. And as the author of the article rightly noted, when Alexei Alexandrovich (Abaza) ordered the Bayan, they didn't know what they wanted or why. The attempt to retroactively assign it to a reconnaissance role with the squadron seems extremely lame. The Novik was perfectly capable of handling these duties. And the Boyarin would have done just as well if the Danes had installed proper boilers on it.
      1. +2
        13 May 2026 12: 05
        P.S. And what's even more offensive is that in 1905, once again in France, they ordered the Admiral Makarov, while in Italy they were building perfectly adequate armored cruisers of the Pisa class, with performance characteristics quite comparable to the Rurik II. They could have ordered one Pisa in Italy and built one in Russia. And there would have been no need for either the "Bayans" or the Rurik II.
        1. +2
          14 May 2026 22: 56
          It's a shame, in principle, that the Makarov, Bayan-2, Pallada-2, and Rurik-2 were built, as they all proved unnecessary and obsolete during construction. The Piza-class would have become just as obsolete. But at that point, Russia found itself hostage to the situation. There were no ships, and the coastline was vast. The fleet urgently needed to be replenished, but there were no new breakthrough projects. So they ordered the design based on the more or less decent Bayan. The Rurik-2, however, is an excellent design and would have been a magnificent ship had it been built before the Russian Revolution. However, if the British had designed and built it before the Russian Revolution, it would have been more likely to end up like a Haruna under Togo's command than a Rurik...
          1. +1
            15 May 2026 11: 33
            Any ship will eventually become obsolete. The Pisas were quite adequate until the advent of the second generation of battlecruisers. Considering that almost all battlecruisers were concentrated in the North Sea, two Pisas had a fair chance against a Goeben or a single Invincible: 8 x 254 mm and 8 x 190 mm versus 6 x 305 mm or 8 x 280 mm. 254 mm shells penetrated their armor anywhere, at realistic ranges. Only the Goeben's main guns were impervious to 190 mm.
            1. +1
              15 May 2026 11: 50
              Quote: TermNachTER
              254mm shells penetrated their armor anywhere, at real distances.

              Offhand - 152 mm cable armor for 50-60, hardly more.
              1. -1
                15 May 2026 11: 54
                Go to NavWeaps and read the performance characteristics of Italian (British) 254mm.
                1. +1
                  15 May 2026 12: 11
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  Go to NavWeaps and read the performance characteristics of Italian (British) 254mm.

                  They're not there, if you're talking about armor penetration. Even if they were, the Navveps is very poor at armor penetration.
                  1. 0
                    15 May 2026 12: 47
                    The folks at NavWeaps are pretty knowledgeable. They have the data. Name me a site that doesn't screw things up, and I'll be happy to read it.
                    1. 0
                      15 May 2026 12: 59
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      The folks at NavWeaps are quite knowledgeable. They have the data.

                      And where? Name them. Or at least give me a direct link—I can't guess what you're imagining this time.
                      1. -2
                        15 May 2026 13: 25
                        Go to the forum and chat with them – Blutarski, NewGolconda, Carbon1234. There are actually a lot of good people there, but these are just for starters. Well, of course, you're the only ones who know everything and can do it all; the rest are just out for a walk.
                      2. +2
                        15 May 2026 13: 29
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Visit the forum and chat

                        I see, that is, you don’t have any link.
                        Chtd
                      3. -2
                        15 May 2026 13: 42
                        What link do you need? NavWeaps Forums – the admission requirements are quite liberal. All you need is an email address, a willingness to communicate, and adhere to the forum rules, which are the same as everywhere else. And feel free to interact with smart people – the range of topics is vast, from the Russian Revolution to post-WWII.
                      4. 0
                        15 May 2026 14: 13
                        I needed a link to support your claim.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        254mm shells penetrated their armor anywhere, at real distances.

                        Of course, you don't have it:)))
                        "Congratulations, citizen, you lied!" (c)
                      5. -2
                        15 May 2026 16: 19
                        Information on the NavWeaps website. And if you don't know how to use the internet, I'm no doctor.
                      6. +2
                        15 May 2026 17: 13
                        We both know that when you're in trouble, you'll never admit it:))))
                      7. -3
                        15 May 2026 18: 28
                        Is it possible to access the site or is it very difficult?))) Don't write nonsense and no one will get into trouble)))
                      8. +1
                        15 May 2026 20: 39
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Is it possible to access the site or is it very difficult?)))

                        It's possible, but that information isn't there. Someone might have blurted something out to you on the forums, but I'm certainly not going to run around there looking for it.
                      9. -2
                        16 May 2026 10: 30
                        All the data is there, but to see it you need to know what an Italian 4 pezzi binati IT mod. 1906 da 254 mm. / Canna 45 calibri is. And for those who don't know, of course, there's nothing there.
                      10. +2
                        16 May 2026 12: 05
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        All the data is there, but to see it you need to know what the Italian 4 pezzi binati IT mod. 1906 da 254 mm. / canna 45 calibri is.

                        Nikolai, are you saying that the Italian ten-inch gun is the British 10"/45 (25.4 cm) Marks VI and VII? For which armor penetration is given.
                        Range Vertical Steel Plate
                        Mark VI: 3,000 yards (9,140 m) 12 in (30.5 cm)
                        Mark VII: 3,000 yards (9,140 m) 11.5 in (29.2 cm)
                        It took me a long time to get this out of you:)))))))) But I needed you to say it yourself.
                        Now, pay attention. Yes, that's right, the Italian 10-inch gun is the Elswick model, which was installed on both the British Swiftsures and the Japanese Katori. And yes, it has armor penetration—nearly 12 inches at a range of 50 cables.
                        BUT WHAT ARMOR? laughing
                        Read again - Vertical Steel Plate That is, steel armor. This is not Krupp armor. It's not even Harvey armor. This is old steel armor with a de Marr "K" rating of 1,330. Whereas Krupp armor should have a rating above 2,000.
                      11. 0
                        16 May 2026 12: 09
                        Did you read there that the Italian cannon was different from the British one? If not, read on.
                      12. +5
                        16 May 2026 13: 32
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And did you read there that the Italian cannon was different from the British one?

                        Of course :)))) And I even estimated its armor penetration. With a muzzle velocity of 870 m (though some evil tongues claim the Italian only had 850 m/s, but I'll be kind today and take what the wise navveps typed) it would be 50 kbt.
                        Without cap - 167 mm grain (K = 2200)
                        With cap - 210 mm groats (armor of the same durability)
                        But this is under ideal conditions, where the deviation from the normal equals the projectile's angle of impact. In a real-world battle, even a 20-degree angle would yield 156 mm without the cap and 195 mm with the cap.
                        So, I have huge doubts that the Italians had a cap back then, but even if they did, it remains to be remembered that 50 cables is too short a distance for WWI.
                        So when I spoke without any calculation
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Offhand - 152 mm cable armor for 50-60, hardly more.

                        I was almost right.
                      13. -2
                        16 May 2026 13: 59
                        You're not saying "practically," you're simply mistaken. The term "vertical steel plate" is used almost everywhere when referring to the armor penetration of British guns, even when there's no direct indication of what specific armor they were firing at. But the Italians, during their 1908 trials, fired at a Krupp plate. They got a result of 280 mm at a range of 9 km. This is discussed on the NavVips Forum, but you need to be able to read.
                      14. +4
                        16 May 2026 18: 24
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The term "vertical steel plate" is used in reference to the armor penetration of British guns, even when there is no direct indication of what specific armor was being fired at.

                        Of course. That's one of the resource's clunky aspects. It's actually quite good, though, and I use it myself... just not for the armor penetration.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        During tests in 1908, the Italians fired at a Krupp plate and achieved a result of 280 mm at a distance of 9 km.

                        It's impossible:)))) Talk to those you advised me on navveps, they will explain it to you:))))))
                        The calculated K value according to de Marr for these parameters is lower than Krupp and Harvey and corresponds to conventional steel (steel-nickel) armor. And de Marr's value is generally accepted. Well, steel-nickel is approximately 1,5 times inferior even to early Krupp.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        but you need to be able to read)))

                        It's necessary. I should also be able to count, but where are you and where are the four operations of arithmetic? laughing
                      15. +3
                        16 May 2026 18: 55
                        And the Italians, during tests in 1908, shot at precisely Krupp plateAnd we got a result of 280 mm over a distance of 9 km.

                        What do you have to smoke to believe this?
                        Famoznaya 305mm/45 Skoda (450kg; 800m/s) with armor-piercing tip At 10 km it showed 202 mm KTs without, and 273 mm KTs with a ballistic tip
                        German 11"/45 (302 kg; 855 m/s) at 10 km - 280 mm nickel-steel plate
                        British 12"/45 (386 kg; 831 m/s) at 9 km KTs- 5/12 caliber (127 mm!?) This is strange, but that's what navweaps says)) For WW2 (different projectile and speed) - 269 mm. Strictly perpendicular, without taking into account the angle of incidence!

                        But the Italian ten-inch (280mm KC)) is ahead of the rest of the world)) For all times... Only "you need to be able to read" laughing
                      16. -4
                        16 May 2026 21: 14
                        The Skoda might not have penetrated at 10 km, but it did at 9 km, and the talk was about 9 km. The German 280/45, it says, penetrated 280 mm at 10 km, though it doesn't specify what kind of armor it was. It's quite possible it wasn't steel-nickel armor.
                      17. +3
                        16 May 2026 22: 29
                        The Skoda might not have broken through at 10 km, but it did at 9 km.

                        That's why it's a 305mm gun with a 450kg projectile - the muzzle energy is 144 MJ, higher than the Russian 12"/52. The Italian 10"/45 (85 MJ, light projectile) isn't even close.
                        ..and we were talking about 9 km

                        3,000 yards is 15 cables (2720 m), what 9 km?
                      18. -1
                        17 May 2026 11: 56
                        Okay, it didn't penetrate the 270mm, it didn't even penetrate the 230mm. Did it penetrate other places? The extremities are generally 100-120mm. One lucky hit and it will be like in the Denmark Strait.
                      19. +4
                        16 May 2026 23: 17
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        "Skoda" may not have broken through at 10 km, but it did break through at 9 km,

                        The only thing the Skoda couldn't penetrate was your forehead.
                      20. 0
                        17 May 2026 11: 57
                        You take care of your forehead, it's no less armored))) should I list your blunders?
                      21. +2
                        17 May 2026 14: 16
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        should I list your mistakes?

                        Why? I already know them, because I admit when I make mistakes. You don't. So the armor on my forehead is no comparison to yours. laughing
                      22. 0
                        17 May 2026 15: 51
                        I also admit my mistakes when they occur. In this case, I agree I was wrong about the capabilities of the Italian 254/45. Otherwise, I stand by my opinion.
                      23. +3
                        16 May 2026 19: 44
                        And yes, it has armor penetration of about 12 dm at a distance of 50 cables.
                        BUT WHAT ARMOR?

                        3,000 yards is not 9140 but 914m. Maybe they forgot a zero? Or maybe they didn't, but... navweaps, though)) Be careful.be able to read"))
                      24. +3
                        16 May 2026 19: 52
                        not 9140 but 914m

                        I made a mistake with yards and feet), of course 2730m. So it wasn't the zero that was forgotten, but the arrhythmetic.
            2. +2
              15 May 2026 13: 21
              Quote: TermNachTER
              then against the Goeben or one Invincible, two Pizas had a certain chance: 8 x 254 mm and 8 x 190 mm against 6 x 305 mm or 8 x 280 mm. 254 mm shells penetrated their armor anywhere, at real distances. 190 mm shells only failed to penetrate the Goeben's main gun.

              Nikolai, you see, if you refer to the "Ufficio storico marina militare Italia," the Pisa-class armored cruisers were designed to counter French armored cruisers. They were an improved design of the Garibaldi cruisers; there's nothing written about any confrontation with battlecruisers, let alone ironclads.
              1. -1
                15 May 2026 13: 37
                More often than not, the ships weren't doing what they were built for, but what the situation forced them to do. The Rurik and the entire series weren't designed for line-of-battle combat, against the aces, but they had to. I'm not saying such a battle was planned, but rather that in the event of such a situation, the two "pizas," whether they happened in the RIF or on the SZM, had
                certain chances against one first generation battlecruiser.
                1. +1
                  15 May 2026 14: 50
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  I'm not saying that such a fight was planned, but that in the event of such a situation, the two "pisses", whether they happened as part of the RIF or on the SZM, had
                  certain chances against one first generation battlecruiser.

                  I think you understand that a battlecruiser will outperform armored cruisers in both speed and main battery guns. This means it will determine the terms of the battle, and armored cruisers will have to accept this.
                  More often than not, ships were doing something other than what they were built for, but rather what the current situation required of them.

                  In the days of ironclads, this was still possible, but even that was highly questionable. Tsushima is a theorem, but not an axiom.
                  "Rurik" and the entire series were not intended for combat in a line, against "aces", but they had to.

                  This is a battle of armored cruisers designed for different tasks, but these are armored cruisers.
                  1. -1
                    15 May 2026 16: 37
                    1. In this specific situation, the Goeben's speed is 24 knots, while the Pis's is 23 knots. The Germans won't be able to dictate the distance; a knot's difference is too small. Incidentally, Admiral Trowbridge almost went to prison in a similar situation. He was saved by the fact that 234mm guns were weaker, and his 190mm guns weren't exactly in his league. However, many in England believed he had sufficient firepower.
                    2. There are countless such situations. I won't go far. What were the Ebdiel minelayers built for? And what did they do? The Dido-class air defense cruisers, the Japanese Akatsuki-class air defense destroyers. The examples are legion.
                    3. That's right, the Rurik and Co. were built for ocean cruising, while the Asams were built for line combat. The Japanese got it right, but we didn't.
                    1. +5
                      15 May 2026 17: 17
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      1. If we take a specific situation, the speed of the Goeben is 24 knots, the speed of the Piz is 23 knots,

                      Nonsense. Goeben may have been doing 24 knots at the time, which is doubtful (it might have even been a bit lower), but it was capable of sustaining that speed for quite a long time. Meanwhile, the Pisas, with their 23 knots under forced power, were only able to cruise at 20 knots for extended periods in real life.
                      1. -1
                        15 May 2026 18: 31
                        Where did you get the data on the "pizas"? Can you provide a link?
                      2. +1
                        15 May 2026 20: 38
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Where did you get the data on the "pizas"? Can you provide a link?

                        Well, it's a well-known fact that Italian ships underwent acceptance trials with afterburners. It was written about it somewhere here.
                        http://naval-encyclopedia.com/ww1/italy/pisa-class-armoured-cruisers.php
                      3. -1
                        16 May 2026 10: 13
                        So, no specifics? Just guesswork, and far-fetched ones at that. The Italian website lavocedelmarinaio.com describes a situation in 1911, during the Italo-Turkish War, where a cargo needed to be delivered from Augusta to Benghazi. The cruiser Amalfi arrived in Benghazi in less than 24 hours, having covered 450 miles at an average speed of 22-23 knots. Aldo Fracaroli writes that the propulsion systems of the Piz and San Giorgio were very reliable, albeit somewhat overweight. They served without any problems until the early 1930s.
                      4. +1
                        16 May 2026 12: 10
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        So, there are no specifics?

                        And this is the specifics.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The Italian resource lavocedelmarinaio.com describes the situation in 1911,

                        Easily. But by that time, the Amalfi was a brand-new cruiser, having been delivered to the navy in September 1909. But by 1914, the situation was expected to change slightly.
                      5. -1
                        16 May 2026 12: 12
                        And in 1914, it was five years old, not that old for a ship. If it was properly maintained.
                      6. +2
                        16 May 2026 13: 14
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        With proper operation.

                        And where did you see her in the Italian fleet? laughing Should I remind you what miracles with the speed of Italian cruisers were not only in WWI, but even in WWII?
                      7. -1
                        16 May 2026 14: 02
                        Hasn't this happened in other countries? Everywhere, they inflated the parameters to avoid fines. Not to mention that day-to-day operation and sea trials, upon delivery of the ship to the customer, are two different things.
                      8. +2
                        16 May 2026 23: 16
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And this didn’t happen in other countries?

                        Sit down, two. In the Russian Empire, surprisingly, tests were conducted without afterburners, using natural draft.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I'm not even talking about the fact that day-to-day operation and sea trials, when the ship is delivered to the customer, are two different things.

                        You should just keep quiet, maybe you'll pass for an intellectual:))))
                        And so, if you could even think for a second about what you're saying, you'd realize that while the actual operating speed was lower even than in non-afterburner tests (the rare exceptions only prove the rule), compared to afterburner tests it would be much lower still. So, 23,5 or whatever Pisa knots in afterburner testing turn into... a pumpkin in everyday use.
                      9. +3
                        17 May 2026 07: 59
                        Good morning.
                        That is, 23,5 or however many knots the Pisa has during afterburner testing turns into... a pumpkin in everyday use.

                        Dear Andrey, I'm not a fan of the Italian Navy, but I did come across an appeal to the Minister of the Navy published in the Italian press. It asked for an explanation of why the official test report listed a speed of 23 knots, if that was only achieved briefly, while the actual speed was 22,6 knots. The second question concerned artillery testing and structural strength. Why, after a full broadside, did the turrets have to be repaired with live ammunition?
                        I didn't look for an answer, but one can assume that not everything was as "smooth and beautiful" as was published in official reports.
                    2. 0
                      15 May 2026 17: 26
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      If we take a specific situation, the speed of the Goeben is 24 knots,

                      Where is such data from?
                      1. 0
                        15 May 2026 18: 30
                        The Goeben's boiler pipes were leaking, and it was undergoing repairs in Pole, replacing the pipes. He barely managed to escape.
                      2. 0
                        16 May 2026 13: 42
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The Goeben's boiler pipes were leaking, and it was undergoing repairs in Pole, replacing the pipes. He barely managed to escape.

                        However, this did not reduce the Goeben's main battery or armor. Therefore, the Italian armored cruisers had no chance.
                      3. 0
                        16 May 2026 14: 05
                        We discussed how it would be very difficult for the Goeben to dictate the distance, as it had near Cape Sarych, because its speed advantage was minimal. Therefore, the Italians had a chance. Maybe not 50/50, but they had one.
                      4. +1
                        16 May 2026 14: 31
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        We talked about how it would be very difficult for the Goeben to dictate the distance, as was the case near Cape Sarych, because the speed advantage was minimal.

                        According to various sources, after shelling Philippeville, the Goeben departed at 24 knots. The Italians could have reached 20-21 knots. While there is a speed advantage, Trowbridge's proposed combat tactics—attacking the Goeben from multiple directions—are also unacceptable due to its slower speed. The Goeben would in any case have a more advantageous position.
                      5. 0
                        16 May 2026 16: 28
                        Where did the 21 knot figure come from? During trials, both cruisers exceeded 23 knots by half a knot. In 1911, during the 450-mile Augusta-Tripoli voyage, the Amalfi covered less than a day, maintaining an average speed of 22-23 knots for 20 hours.
                    3. +1
                      16 May 2026 12: 16
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      What were the Ebdiel minelayers built for? What did they do?

                      Imagine, they planted mines.
                      If I remember correctly, Latona was immediately transferred to supply Malta.

                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      Air defense cruisers "Dido"

                      Why do you think that the Dido-class cruise missiles are air defense cruisers?
                      Just like the Atlanteans... laughing
                      1. 0
                        16 May 2026 13: 43
                        And how many times did they plant mines? And how many times did they do other things?
                        That's what they were called – air defense cruisers. And then, everyone decides for themselves what they really were. What was the purpose of the 133mm guns on the King George-class battleships?
                      2. +2
                        16 May 2026 14: 02
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And how many times did they plant mines?

                        Ebdiel set 2209 minutes
                        "Manxman" - 3112 min
                        Welshman - 3274 mines
                        "Ariadne" - from 1352 to 2000 (historians cannot agree)
                        Apollo - approx. 8500
                        The standard capacity of the minelayer is 100 mines, then you can calculate for yourself, as a first approximation, how many times the ships went on minelaying missions.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        That's what they were called - air defense cruisers.

                        Who called them that? :)

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And then, everyone decides for themselves who they really were.

                        The British were developing a development of the "Aretheuse" (squadron cruiser) with improved air defense.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        For what purposes were 133mm guns installed on the King George-class battleships?

                        As they say: So what?
                      3. 0
                        16 May 2026 16: 22
                        1. And how many other missions did the Ebdiels carry out, besides minelaying, if we compare them altogether, during the war? Where did you get the 100 mines figure? warship-profile-038 says the full load was 156 Mk. XVI mines. So, the Ebdiels carried out minelaying missions about 15 times. Over four years of war, that's not very many.
                        2. So, the AA defense on the "Arethuses" is 102mm, the main gun is 152mm. Where is the 133mm on this side? They didn't reinforce it, they replaced it. And the fact that the 133mm turned out to be a very mediocre anti-aircraft gun was something they only found out about when the war began. Although its ballistics were good. Incidentally, there was a project to convert the remaining "Hawkins" into "AA cruisers"; the plans actually say "anti-air." It was supposed to have six twin 133mm guns.
                        3. If the 133mm gun on the King functions as an anti-aircraft gun, what functions does it perform on a cruiser?
                      4. +1
                        16 May 2026 16: 42
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Where did you get the number 100 minutes?

                        Very Special Ships. Abdiel Class Fast Minelayers of World War Two
                        100 Mk.XIV or Mk.XV - standard, 150-162 in overload.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        So, "Ebdiel" went out to lay mines about 15 times. In four years of war, that's not very many.

                        The Ebdielas are ships designed for active minelaying in enemy-controlled waters, not for methodical mine-laying.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        So, the air defense on the "Arethuses" is 102mm, the main guns are 152mm. Which side is the 133mm on? They didn't reinforce it, they replaced it.

                        Correct. The Dido-class submarines were built for squadron service as a development of the Nymph-class submarines, as it was decided that air defense capabilities needed to be strengthened, and a single, universal caliber was introduced.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        By the way, there was a project to convert the remaining Hawkins into AA-cruisers, It's written on the drawings that it's "anti-air".

                        Show me a drawing of "Dido" with this inscription... :)

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        3. If the 133mm gun on the King functions as an anti-aircraft gun, what functions does it perform on a cruiser?

                        On the "Kings", as well as on the "Dido", this was a universal caliber for shooting at sea and air targets.
                        But for you this seems like news... ;)
                      5. 0
                        16 May 2026 17: 50
                        1. Okay, "Ebdiel" went out to lay mines 20 times, if you divide 1460 days of war by 20 - is that a lot or not so much?
                        2. If I find such a drawing, I'll definitely post it. I just wasn't particularly interested in the Ebdielas. But I'll make a note of it.
                        3. Is shooting at air targets air defense or what?
                      6. +2
                        16 May 2026 18: 02
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        1. Okay, "Ebdiel" went out to lay mines 20 times, if you divide 1460 days of war by 20 - is that a lot or not so much?

                        In your opinion, should a ship be at sea all the time and "perform its duties" in accordance with the terms of reference?

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        3. Is shooting at air targets air defense or what?

                        Why do you always forget about shooting at sea targets? :)
                      7. 0
                        16 May 2026 20: 45
                        1. No, the ships do what the situation dictates. And minelaying wasn't a priority for the Abdiels.
                        2. I haven't forgotten, although I don't quite recall, when the 133mm "Kings" were fired at naval targets. And the "Dido" duels with Italian battleships and heavy cruisers weren't a matter of good fortune, but because there was nothing else. If Vian had had a choice, he would never have taken his "Didos" against Italian battleships.
                      8. +2
                        16 May 2026 20: 58
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        1. No, the ships do what the situation dictates. And minelaying wasn't a priority for the Abdiels.

                        The Ebdiela's mine-laying missions were interspersed with transport tasks, so it is difficult to establish priorities.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        when 133mm "Kings" fired at sea targets.

                        "Prince of Wales" after "Bismarck"...
                        The other "kings" were lucky in this matter.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And the "dido" duels with Italian battleships and heavy cruisers were not due to the good life, but because there was nothing else.

                        And the "Didoshkas" had to fire not only at battleships, but also at destroyers...
                      9. 0
                        16 May 2026 21: 28
                        So, was there much sense in firing 133mm at the Bismarck?
                        And for destroyers too, but the main problem was battleships and heavy cruisers.
                      10. +1
                        16 May 2026 21: 39
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        So, was there much sense in firing 133mm at the Bismarck?

                        Not much, since the anti-aircraft guns were out of order due to combat damage.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And for destroyers too, but the main problem was battleships and heavy cruisers.

                        Of all the battles in which the "Didoshki" took part, do you only know about two Sirtes? laughing
                      11. 0
                        17 May 2026 11: 54
                        Both Sirtes are the most indicative, but yes, they fought in many places.
                      12. +1
                        17 May 2026 12: 50
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Both Sirtes, the most indicative

                        What? That British cruisers are capable of driving off Italian battleships?
                        Well, it doesn't depend only and not so much on the ships...
                      13. 0
                        17 May 2026 13: 15
                        Did the Italian destroyers have any chance in a duel with the "Dido"? The first "condottieri" didn't have much of a chance either. Well, the quality of the Italian admirals is a separate issue.
                      14. +1
                        17 May 2026 13: 56
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Did the Italian destroyers have any chance in a duel with the "Dido"? The first "condottieri" didn't have much of a chance either.

                        Who cares?
                        The ship is built for war...

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Well, the quality of Italian admirals is a separate issue.

                        Not without it.
                      15. 0
                        17 May 2026 15: 49
                        And we return again to the beginning of our discussion. During the war, ships did things completely different from what they were intended to do.
                      16. 0
                        17 May 2026 17: 25
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The ships in the war did things that were completely different from what they were intended to do in the war.

                        In general, to determine this, you need to look at the specifications... :)
      2. +1
        14 May 2026 22: 48
        Of course, it's a shame. But the article clearly states that our fleet successfully, through evolutionary means, perfected the concept of an ocean-going armored cruiser-raider. But cruisers serving with squadrons didn't undergo such evolution, and Russian admirals simply didn't understand what kind of cruiser they needed for their squadron. Considering that the Bayan class is close in displacement to our armored-deck "six-thousanders" and significantly superior in combat performance, building a series of Bayans to replace the Askold and Bogatyrs (it's best not to mention the Bogins—they turned out to be the most useless cruisers) would have significantly strengthened the Pacific Fleet at the time of the Russian Navy. As for the Garibaldi class, the Italians positioned them not as armored cruisers, but as second-class battleships for secondary fleets in South America (and the Spanish even ordered one for themselves). Therefore, the Russian admirals had absolutely no idea what kind of cruiser they needed for the squadron, but they knew for sure that the Russian fleet did not need the Garibaldians (which was what Z.P. Rozhestvensky said when the future Nissin and Kassuga were offered to the Russians for purchase).
    4. +2
      13 May 2026 17: 45
      The cruiser isn't bad, but the armor isn't Krupp-quality. Bad cruisers are a joke.
      1. +3
        15 May 2026 13: 16
        Quote: vitaliy20091959
        but the armor is not Krupp

        So what?
        How did this hinder the Japanese, who only had Krupp armor on the Mikasa and Yakumo?
        1. 0
          15 May 2026 16: 07
          ["which had Krupp armor only on the "Mikasa" and "Yakumo"

          Even these two didn't have CC armor.
          1. 0
            18 May 2026 11: 27
            Quote: Jura 27
            Even these two didn't have CC armor.

            That's for sure?
            1. +1
              18 May 2026 15: 12
              Quote: Senior Sailor
              Quote: Jura 27
              Even these two didn't have CC armor.

              That's for sure?

              It couldn't be more precise. Dear Rytik, this was posted by KH.
              1. +1
                19 May 2026 08: 05
                Quote: Jura 27
                Dear Rytik, this was posted by KH.

                Oops. Either I missed it or I forgot. request
  3. +3
    13 May 2026 05: 40
    As always, an interesting article! Thanks to the author!
    1. +5
      13 May 2026 07: 11
      Quote: pin_code
      Thanks to the author!

      And thank you for your kind words!
  4. +6
    13 May 2026 06: 42
    Greetings, namesake drinks
    There's already a plus sign Yes
    In my opinion, the Naval Ministry should have first defined what it envisioned as squadron service, specifically defining the range of tasks for the ship. And only then, based on the requirements, determine what they need. Which parameters should be emphasized, and which can be sacrificed. Otherwise, we tend to cut corners by creating general-purpose ships that seem to do a bit of everything, but end up weak in all respects compared to more specialized ships. request
    We are waiting for the continuation. hi
    1. +4
      13 May 2026 07: 10
      Quote: Rurikovich
      In my opinion, the Naval Ministry should have first defined what it saw as service with the squadron, and specifically defined the range of tasks for the ship.

      Greetings!
      But it couldn't. :)))) Take the technical level of Diana—there was no point in demanding that a cruiser of up to 7,000 tons have complete superiority over a second-class armored deck ship (that is, an 8-inch armored deck and an armor belt). We somehow managed to get an armored deck ship with a 6-inch armored deck. So the question is—what can we expect from foreigners who are supposedly more advanced than us? But by how much? A benchmark was needed, and not just the performance characteristics of ships already delivered to the navy, but also those that companies are undertaking to build.
  5. +2
    13 May 2026 07: 38
    The Americans had a powerful cruiser, the Olympia, with four 8-inch turrets. Something could have been built on that.
    1. +6
      13 May 2026 07: 52
      There's nothing much to invent there. Its good performance characteristics were achieved thanks to its meager normal coal reserves, which were only 400 tons. A full one, yes, cost over 1000, but it achieved its speed with normal coal reserves. Plus, the guns are old, and the new ones will be heavier... Basically, if everything were fixed, we wouldn't see anything special.
      1. +2
        13 May 2026 08: 13
        However, Dupuy de Lôme was and is considered as a basis, and it is a piece of junk even in comparison with Olympia
        1. +5
          13 May 2026 08: 23
          Quote: Tlauicol
          However, Dupuy de Lôme was and is considered as a basis

          It wasn't considered as a basis, but was rejected after review. That said, Lom is more interesting than Olympia. The guns are new, the artillery protection is very good, the turrets are modern, and the cruiser is armored, not armored deck.
          I think if you take a closer look at Olympia, there are a number of problems that would rule it out for RIF. Stability, etc.
          1. +1
            13 May 2026 09: 02
            Hmm, if we also leave out Esmeralda...
            It turns out that we won't be able to build a good cruiser, no matter what
            1. +6
              13 May 2026 09: 09
              Quote: Tlauicol
              Hmm, if we also leave out Esmeralda...

              Why throw out Esmeralda? :))) She was looked at as a prototype, another question is that any champion performance characteristics are achieved at the expense of something less obvious, but no less important for a combat ship
            2. +1
              13 May 2026 10: 28
              Still, no matter how you look at it, the cruiser should have been larger, with four 8-inch and twelve 6-inch boats. Let's say the speed was 20 knots. Or even 19,5. But three or four of them would have been needed. They could have proven themselves with a squadron. But... We'll be rich in brains in over a hundred years...
              1. +2
                13 May 2026 10: 33
                Quote: pin_code
                Still, no matter how you look at it, it was necessary to make the cruiser larger and install 4 8 dm and 12 6 dm.

                Let's see:))))
                1. 0
                  13 May 2026 11: 37
                  Eh... Namesake. Maybe such a scenario could have happened, but it didn't. And that's a fact.
              2. +2
                14 May 2026 10: 47
                Quote: pin_code
                Still, no matter how you look at it, the cruiser should have been made bigger and equipped with 4 8-inch and 12 6-inch boats. Let's say the speed was 20 knots.

                And you didn't even have to go far to do this - such cruisers were built literally nearby, one hundred and fifty kilometers from Nice. smile
                1. VlK
                  -1
                  14 May 2026 11: 09
                  But even now, our main Project 22350 has only 16 UKSK cells (which are not at all universal in the US sense), and yet it was called the foundation of the future fleet and its main workhorse. Compared to the same workhorse of our main potential adversary, the destroyer Arleigh Burke (96 UKSK cells), ours (16 + 32 air defense cells) is critically underarmed, even though it has a third less displacement? But this project was developed and approved based on certain naval requirements, meaning at the time it was considered acceptable for its range of missions. Although, "through a puddle" there was already a clear example of how it should really be done?
                  1. +4
                    14 May 2026 11: 21
                    Quote: VlK
                    Although "through a puddle" was already a clear example of how it should really be done?

                    Please don't confuse a frigate with a destroyer. They have completely different missions and shouldn't be compared head-on. A frigate is primarily an air defense/antisubmarine warfare (ASW) unit in the near-sea zone, and Gorshkov has everything here – it has a more or less sonar system, a Poliment-Redut, and 16 UKSK cells, enough to stockpile anti-ship missiles in case of an unexpected surface enemy, and anti-submarine missiles.
                    A destroyer is an ocean-going vessel, tasked with ensuring the security of the aircraft carrier, and doing so for extended periods without reloading, hence the 96 cells. Meanwhile, missiles of the Kalibr/Zircon class, like those found in our UKSK, can't be crammed into Berk—the cells are too small.
                    1. VlK
                      +1
                      14 May 2026 11: 39
                      I'm not confusing classes, but didn't we have the Gorshkovs, it seems, who were planning to solve similar problems to the Burkes in any part of the world's oceans in the near future? The super-destroyer and even nuclear-powered destroyer projects, for heaven's sake, never went beyond exhibition models?
                      1. +5
                        14 May 2026 12: 05
                        Quote: VlK
                        oh, it seems like it was the Gorshkovs who were going to solve similar problems to the Berks in the near future

                        We can't solve similar problems with Gorshkovs. The Berkovs' primary mission is to ensure the stability of the carrier strike group, air defense, and antisubmarine warfare. We don't have strike aircraft carriers, so we can't have such a mission.
                        Quote: VlK
                        in any parts of the world's oceans?

                        And for this, they planned to build an enlarged 22350M—it already has 48 UKSK cells, and a redoubt of up to 64 cells, with the ability to deploy SAMs with a range of 400+ km (who would even aim them on a frigate?). And the dimensions, by the way, are Berkov-like. But we stumbled even on the 22350; the 22350M is like the moon.
                      2. VlK
                        +1
                        14 May 2026 12: 16
                        We can't solve similar problems with Gorshkovs. The Berkovs' primary mission is to ensure the stability of the carrier strike group, air defense, and antisubmarine warfare. We don't have strike aircraft carriers, so we can't have such a mission.

                        Berks sometimes appear in certain areas with missions and without AUGs; thanks to the non-division of their UKSKs into those intended for air defense and others, they themselves are completely versatile ships, depending on their equipment; they are not only escorts for AUGs, but also surpass our "horses" in their striking capabilities.
                        And for this they planned to build an enlarged 22350M - it already has 48 UKSK cells, and a redoubt of up to 64 cells, with the ability to place SAMs with a range of 400+ km (who will even aim them on a frigate?). And the dimensions, by the way, are Berkov-like.

                        But while all this remains only on paper and in conversations on the internet, were they even included in the construction program?
                      3. +4
                        14 May 2026 12: 39
                        Quote: VlK
                        Berks sometimes appear in some areas with missions and without AUGs,

                        Yes. But these missions do not involve any duels with enemy surface ships.
                        Quote: VlK
                        were they even included in the construction program?

                        We don't know anything about the program; it's become a terribly secretive thing now (apparently, so as not to make people laugh), but they were apparently planning to build it in St. Petersburg.
                        But what's the point of talking about this if the 22350 are also slipping? And Severnaya Verf said, "Go to hell, and give us 100500 trillion rubles for refitting."
                      4. VlK
                        0
                        14 May 2026 12: 50
                        Yes. But these missions do not involve any duels with enemy surface ships.
                        Yeah, but missions do sometimes involve strike missions, albeit along the shore?
                        But what's the point of talking about this if the 22350 are also slipping? And Severnaya Verf said, "Go to hell, and give us 100500 trillion rubles for refitting."
                        It's a shame if that's the case. Then, when they're suddenly and inevitably needed here and now (for example, to protect our shipping), there will be nowhere to get them from, as usual.
                      5. +3
                        14 May 2026 13: 12
                        Quote: VlK
                        Yeah, but missions do sometimes involve strike missions, albeit along the shore?

                        Of course, but we can't even dream of such a thing—far from our native shores. And in our own seas, the number of units is more important than the number of combatants.
                        Quote: VlK
                        Later, when they are suddenly and inevitably needed

                        Already. How can I cover the shadow fleet? I have nothing.
                      6. VlK
                        0
                        14 May 2026 13: 34
                        Already. How to cover the shadow fleet? There's nothing.

                        That's not a fact here) it's a shadow one, not ours, we don't have anything to do with it on purpose, we're just advocating for compliance with generally accepted established global practice))
                      7. +2
                        14 May 2026 13: 43
                        Quote: VlK
                        That's not a fact here) he's a shadow one, not ours

                        That's true, but it would be very important to have our own ships - the shadow one can also transmit an SOS signal, and in the case of clearly illegal actions, the Russian Navy can intervene.
                      8. VlK
                        0
                        14 May 2026 13: 50
                        Well, no way, if it's not ours, then everything's ok, we'll continue as before, everything's going well)
            3. +2
              13 May 2026 11: 47
              Well, that depends. Rework Gromoboi or Pobeda a bit. And you could end up with a decent cruiser with main guns in turrets and almost a Pennsylvania (if I'm not mistaken). The Americans weren't blinded by European designs.
          2. +3
            13 May 2026 10: 37
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            That said, Lom is more interesting than Olympia. The guns are new, the artillery protection is very good, the turrets are modern, and the cruiser is armored, not armored-deck.

            The armored cruiser Dupuy-de-Lôme had a problem with its guns. The guns were manufactured without proper testing. According to the Artillery Inspectorate's requirements, up to 200 shots had to be fired before acceptance into service. When these tests were conducted, a weakness in the gun breechblocks was revealed. Therefore, in accordance with the Artillery Inspectorate's orders, the power of the projectiles, and consequently the projectile velocity, was reduced.
            1. +4
              13 May 2026 10: 51
              Thanks for the info, but we would have used our own guns anyway. And the French ones were a better match for the weight than the old American ones.
      2. +5
        13 May 2026 13: 35
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Plus, the guns are old, and the new ones will be heavier...

        The barrel (without the breech) of the American 8"/35 Mark 3 weighs 13,336 kg. The barrel of the Russian 8"/45 gun with the breech is 12183 kg. And all of this is minor compared to the weight of the entire turret mount. The twin-gun turret mount of the cruiser "Olympia," weighing approximately 150 tons, was comparable in weight to the single-gun turret mount of the cruiser "Bayan" only because the Americans, quite boldly, chose only 3,5" of vertical armor protection for the turrets with 8" guns (well, yes, compared to 4" armor shields for 5" guns).

        The American 5"/40 Mark 2 gun weighed 6440 kg. The cruiser was later re-armed with 5"/51 guns weighing over 10 tons. The domestic 120 mm/45 gun weighed 7,5 tons.

        Considering that the Olympia, an armored cruiser, demonstrated an average speed of 21,67 knots during four-hour trials, thanks to the deployment of up to 17,000 horsepower engines, the design capacity of which was 13,500 horsepower. In reality, the American cruiser was truly "nothing special."

        Unlike the armored cruiser Esmeralda, whose main drawback was that, due to overloading, its 2,1-meter armor belt sank under water at full displacement. This led the Royal Navy's chief builder, William White, to call the armor belt of the cruiser built for Chile "fictitious."
        1. +2
          13 May 2026 13: 56
          Quote: AlexanderA
          The barrel weight (without lock) of the American 8"/35 Mark 3 is 13,336 kg.

          Yes, but we were going to install 6-inch ones, which greatly exceed the weight of 127-mm ones.
          Quote: AlexanderA
          The twin-gun turret mount of the cruiser "Olympia", which had a mass of ~150 tons, was comparable in mass to the single-gun turret mount of the cruiser "Bayan" only because the Americans quite boldly chose vertical armor protection of only 3,5" for the turrets with 8" guns.

          I'm not sure about that. But it doesn't really matter.
          Quote: AlexanderA
          Considering that the Olympia, an armored cruiser, demonstrated an average speed of 21,67 knots during four-hour trials, thanks to the deployment of up to 17,000 horsepower engines, the design capacity of which was 13,500 horsepower. In reality, the American cruiser was truly "nothing special."

          That's definitely true. I had no idea.
          1. 0
            13 May 2026 15: 24
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Yes, but we were going to install 6-inch ones, which greatly exceed the weight of 127-mm ones.

            The Olympia is an armored cruiser distinguished only by its 8-inch gun turrets. If the MTC members had shown a keen interest in American shipbuilding at the time, they would have been interested in the Olympia's twin 8-inch turret mounts, comparable in weight to the single 8-inch turrets ultimately installed on the Bayan.

            It's a shame the MTC didn't remember the American armored deck ship Olympia. This begs the question of why, in early 1897, the MTC didn't remember the already commissioned armored ship Giuseppe Garibaldi and the San Martin, which was under construction for Argentina. Although, it's understandable—some second- or third-tier naval powers were building something there. It's not interesting.
            1. +3
              13 May 2026 16: 52
              Quote: AlexanderA
              If those sitting in the MTC at that time had shown a keen interest in shipbuilding in the USA, they would have been interested in the two-gun 8" turret mounts in the Olympia, comparable in weight to those single-gun 8" turret mounts.

              Absolutely not. The MTK was interested in turrets that met specific requirements that American turrets didn't. A two-gun 150-ton turret couldn't be built within those requirements. The MTK could have built just any turret, just to achieve 150 tons, even without the American turret. But why bother?
              Quote: AlexanderA
              The question arises why, at the beginning of 1897, the MTC did not remember the already commissioned armored Giuseppe Garibaldi and the San Martin, which was being built for Argentina.

              The answer is obvious.
              Quote: AlexanderA
              Although it is clear why

              Because our fleet had absolutely no need for such "cruisers"; they didn't fit into any reasonable concept for deploying the main forces of the fleet. The fact that they somehow played a role in the Japanese's plans was our fault, not theirs.
              1. -1
                13 May 2026 19: 53
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Absolutely not. MTK was interested in towers that met certain requirements that American towers did not meet.

                The MTK drew up requirements within which the mass of the single-gun 8" turret mount of the cruiser "Bayan" was ~157 tons.

                In the US and Italy, apparently failing to meet the critical requirements for the MTK, they managed to fit twin 8" turret gun mounts into similar or slightly larger ships. As a result, the US Navy and, for example, the Argentine Navy received cruisers with a normal displacement smaller than the Bayan and a broadside of four 8" guns, while the Russian Navy received Bayan-class cruisers. Never mind the armored cruiser Olympia. The armored San Martin (as a model representative of the early Garibaldi-class cruisers with 8" turrets) also had armor protection several hundred tons heavier than the Bayan.
                Because our fleet had absolutely no need for such "cruisers"; they did not fit into any reasonable concept for the use of the fleet's main forces.

                The concept behind the Bayan design envisioned increased firepower and protection for the "armored reconnaissance vessel of the squadron" at the expense of endurance and seaworthiness, compared to the ocean-going armored raiders previously built for the Russian Fleet. The Garibaldi-class armored cruisers were designed with a similar approach—compromising firepower and protection at the expense of endurance and seaworthiness.

                In retrospect, it's safe to say the Italians fared better than the French. The Nisshin and Kasuga, part of the "squadron," successfully participated alongside the main force's battleships in both the Yellow Sea and the Battle of Tsushima.

                The Russian admirals never dared to place the Bayan in the same line as the battleships.
                The fact that they played against the Japanese was our fault, not theirs.

                But the "Bayan"—"we had nothing to turn to the French with"—was also our fault. And not only before, but also after the Russo-Japanese War. When, once again in a state of "nothing else to turn to," they built three more "Bayans." Solid flaws. That's not how you win wars. That's how you only lose them.
                1. +1
                  13 May 2026 20: 42
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  In the US and Italy, apparently failing to meet the very important requirements for the MTK, they were able to fit twin 8" turret gun mounts into similar or slightly larger ships. As a result, the US Navy and, for example, the Argentine Navy, received cruisers with a normal displacement smaller than the Bayan's and a broadside of four 8" guns.

                  Yeah. But you're wrong to think that this is a huge advantage and that Olympia was therefore twice as strong as Bayan in the GK. Not to mention that the weights need to be calculated in a comparable way, and I seriously doubt you calculated them correctly.
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  The Garibaldi-class armored cruisers were designed using a similar approach—firepower and protection at the expense of autonomy and seaworthiness.

                  No.
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  In retrospect, we can confidently say that the Italians did a better job than the French.

                  You can not.
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  "Nissin" and "Kasuga" with the "squadron" successfully participated in the same line with the battleships of the main forces in the squadron battle in the Yellow Sea and in the Battle of Tsushima.

                  Which, as I've already said, was our fault, not their strength. They were essentially ordinary battleships, poorly protected and slow-moving, with small coal reserves. They were rightly called "poor man's battleships."
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  The Russian admirals never dared to place the Bayan in the same line as the battleships.

                  They didn't even have that opportunity, and this cruiser wasn't for the line.
                  Quote: AlexanderA
                  Well, the "Bayan" "we had nothing to turn to the French with" is also our oversight.

                  This is your personal opinion, not a historical fact.
                  1. +1
                    14 May 2026 00: 41
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Yeah. But you're wrong to think that this is a huge advantage and that Olympia was therefore twice as strong as Bayan in terms of GK.

                    I don't think so. The Olympia's turrets were armed with outdated 8"/35 guns that had no rate of fire, even after the US Navy began focusing on rate of fire after the Spanish-American War.

                    I actually suggested giving up on the Olympia and forgetting about that cruiser. The armored "Garibaldian" San Martin was a completely different matter. She really was twice as powerful as the Bayan in terms of broadside fire.

                    "Bayan" broadside salvo 2 × 203-mm + 4 × 152-mm. Weight of broadside salvo 341,2 kg
                    "San Martin" broadside salvo 4 × 203-mm + 5 × 152-mm + 3 × 120-mm. Weight of broadside salvo 741,3 kg

                    Result: A single broadside salvo from the San Martin is 2,17 times heavier (400 kg) than a salvo from the Bayan.

                    The Bayan's one-minute broadside salvo weighs 1008,6 kg.
                    The San Martin's one-minute broadside is 2187,8 kg.

                    Result: In terms of the mass of a one-minute broadside salvo, the San Martin was calculated to be 2,16 times greater than the Bayan.
                    No.

                    Explain why, in your opinion, the Bayan's tradeoff for firepower and protection over endurance and seaworthiness was "different" than the San Martin's. However, I took the liberty of citing some figures above. The Italian designers achieved roughly twice the firepower of the Bayan, with roughly the same displacement and similar construction costs. Clearly, the "Garibaldian" wasn't known for its propulsion.

                    Incidentally, the San Martin was supposed to engage the Chilean cruiser Esmeralda, which had caught the attention of the Marine Transport Company. And if war had broken out between Argentina and Chile, it would have met and defeated her, if it had caught up, of course. wink
                    In essence, these were ordinary BrKr

                    The San Martin was a standard BKR with the best ratio of broadside firepower per minute to displacement per ton at the time. But the MTK needed something unusual, something with mediocre firepower for a similar displacement? Well, that's exactly what the MTK got.

                    Why did this happen with firepower? Because when Argentina began purchasing Garibaldi-class cruisers, Chile already had the battleship Capitan Prat with 240mm main guns.

                    Well, Argentina, in the course of the naval arms race, acquired a homogeneous armored force of four armored cruisers capable of giving the Chilean force of the battleship Capitan Prat and the armored cruisers Esmeralda and O'Higgins a run for their money. As a result, it won the naval arms race (due to the failure of the Chilean battleships, the British-built Constitution and Libertad, to appear). Exhausted by the ruinous pre-war expenditures, Argentina and Chile decided to resolve their differences without war by reaching an agreement. Fleet as it is. The Russian Empire didn't manage to do the same with the Mikado Empire. It was sheer mismanagement on our part.
                    They didn't even have that opportunity, and this cruiser wasn't for the line.

                    Following the Russo-Japanese War, all stakeholders realized that if yet another first-class battleship, so to speak, couldn't be deployed in a line of battleships, it was a failure. Everyone understood this and began building battlecruisers. Several powers managed to build them before the start of World War I. Russia, again, failed. Russia built three more Bayan-class ships.
                    This is your personal opinion, not a historical fact.

                    I quoted you. Your: "We had nothing to turn to the French with" from the article. Have you forgotten that this is your opinion?
                    1. +2
                      14 May 2026 07: 03
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      Tell us why, in your opinion, the choice in favor of firepower and protection on the Bayan at the expense of autonomy and seaworthiness was "not the same" as on the San Martin.

                      In fact, you could see this for yourself by looking closely at their performance characteristics. I'll touch on all of this in future articles.
                      Quote: AlexanderA
                      Following the Russo-Japanese War, all interested parties realized that if another armored ship of the 1st rank, so to speak, could not, if necessary, be placed in a line, then it was an unsuccessful armored ship.

                      So, the Italian battleships shouldn't have been deployed in a line. Nissin and Kasuga survived because they weren't hit at all in the LM, and their impact at Tsushima was minimal. They could have been replaced by armored cruisers in the LM—with the same success.
                      1. 0
                        14 May 2026 13: 43
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In fact, you could see this for yourself by looking closely at their performance characteristics. I'll touch on all of this in future articles.

                        If you compare the performance characteristics of the Bayan with the performance characteristics of two South American rivals who never entered into combat with each other, the Esmeralda and the San Martin (an early armored cruiser of the Garibaldi class with 8" main guns), I will of course wait for this comparison.
                        So the Italian BRKr could not be placed in a line:))))) Nissin and Kasuga survived due to the fact that they did not come under fire at all in the LM

                        In the Battle of the Yellow Sea, Nisshin and Kasuga were second only to Mikasa in the number of hits from Russian shells of 6" and above caliber. Moreover, of the three hits Nisshin sustained, two were 10-12" caliber.

                        "and then it was the turn of the rearmost Nissin - already at the very end of the battle on counter tacks, at 13.15 it received a six-inch shell, and ten minutes later - a ten-inch one."

                        "Fuji was not hit by a single shell during the entire battle, and Asahi and Yakumo received no damage after the battle resumed at 16:30. The armored cruiser Kasuga received three hits of an unknown caliber: most likely, they were six-inch shells, but it is not even known whether this happened in the first or second phase of the battle, although it is likely still in the second. One or two small shells hit the stern of Shikishima, and at 18:25 a twelve-inch shell struck the Nisshin."

                        Is it okay that I quote your article "Battle in the Yellow Sea on July 28, 1904" from 2016?
                        and in Tsushima the impact on them was minimal.

                        At Tsushima, Nissin, according to Japanese reports, again occupied an honorable second place in the number of large-caliber hits after Mikasa.

                        "Nisshin" received 6 12", 1 9", 2 6" hits and, apparently, 4 hits from shells of smaller or unspecified caliber. As stated in the description of the battle, three of her 8" guns were destroyed by hits from 12" shells. A British officer who examined Nisshin after the battle believed that these guns could have been destroyed as a result of premature shell bursts in the barrel bore, but Japanese reports quite definitely state that the guns were disabled as a result of shell hits. Despite the guns being disabled, none of the turrets were out of action, although the forward turret was also hit by a 9" shell at 15:45. Fragments from this shell struck the conning tower and wounded Admiral Misa. Around 14:40, a 12" shell penetrated the 6" side armor of the port side about 1 foot below the waterline and exploded in the coal pit. During the action, another 12" shell also struck 6" armor 3 feet (1 m) above the waterline, but did not penetrate.

                        Here I have already quoted the translation of Campbell's 1978 article.
                      2. +1
                        14 May 2026 14: 58
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        In the Battle of the Yellow Sea, Nissin and Kasuga were second only to Mikasa in the number of hits from Russian shells of 6" caliber and above.

                        During the battle in the JM, Kasuga was hit by as many as three shells of an unknown caliber, wounding 10. Nissin was apparently hit by one 6-inch shell, one 10-inch shell, and one 12-inch shell.
                        The Askold was hit by 10 Japanese shells, one of which was 12-inch. It managed to break through.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Is it okay that I quote your article "Battle in the Yellow Sea on July 28, 1904" from 2016?

                        Yes, please. But if you read it, you should know that the fire in the LM was almost always concentrated on Mikasa, with other ships being hit only fragmentarily.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        "Nissin" received 6 12", 1 9", 2 6" hits and, apparently, 4 hits from shells of smaller or unspecified caliber.

                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Here I have already quoted the translation of Campbell's 1978 article.

                        Well, if you read more modern research, at least that of naval_manual, you'll have to cut the sturgeon very sharply.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Nissin also received 6 12",

                        Reading "Medicine and Sanitation" (Section 7, Volume 3, C05110138600, pp. 276-281) leaves five 12-inch hits. Subtracting three hits on the 8-inch guns (which exploded on their own) leaves two. Considering that the hit on the armor belt was likely a 9-10-inch shell, that leaves one, on the 6-inch belt. This hit was described by the Japanese, but it had no consequences, meaning either the battleship fired with older guns, or from a very long range.
                        In total, there were 3 large-caliber hits: 1 12-inch, 1 9-10-inch, and 1 9-inch.
                      3. +1
                        14 May 2026 17: 54
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        During the battle in the JM, Kasuga was hit by as many as three shells of an unknown caliber, wounding 10. Nissin was apparently hit by one 6-inch shell, one 10-inch shell, and one 12-inch shell.
                        The Askold was hit by 10 Japanese shells, one of which was 12-inch. It managed to break through.

                        After a single hit from a 12" battleship shell... into the smokestack.

                        Break through to Shanghai, where the cruiser was interned.

                        Is it true that Rear Admiral N.K. Reitzenstein refused to break through from Shanghai without drydock repairs, which led to the ship's internment?

                        He refused because not even a hit, but a close explosion of a Japanese shell near the side, had so weakened the cruiser's hull that N.K. Reitzenstein believed that it would not reach Vladivostok without dock repairs.

                        "Apparently, this is what happened: a shell that landed close to the side of the ship exploded underwater in the specified area. The force of the explosion was sufficient to create a hole in the side, but not enough to critically damage the cofferdam, as a result of which the water ingress through the hole was localized. However, as a result of the accompanying damage (destruction of frames, loosening of fastenings and rivets), water began to seep into the hull (at a rate of 3 tons per day). The damage received earlier, on January 27, did not manifest itself; the plate laid on the hole retained its watertightness, but as a result of the breakage of five frames located in close proximity (Nos. 46, 47, 50, 51, 52), the hull was significantly weakened."

                        I'm quoting your article again. This time, it's "On the Breakthrough of the Cruisers Askold and Novik in the Battle of July 28, 1904," from 2018.

                        Why did you decide to compare the combat survivability of a flimsy armored cruiser, which was knocked out of the war by a mere shell burst near its side, breaking five hull frames, and the combat survivability of an armored cruiser, which, according to official reports, received the second most hits from large-caliber Russian shells after the Mikasa in the Tsushima battle, losing almost all of its main battery artillery, yet the next day, as part of the main force, continued to pursue and destroy the remnants of the Russian squadron - the evening of the following day, together with the Kasuga, sending the BBO Admiral Ushakov to the bottom?

                        I don't understand your motive. Perhaps, based on this comparison, you want to say something like, "As you can see, there's no difference. Therefore, Admiral Makarov was right. They should have built 'armorless ships'!"

                        I don't think so. There was a difference, as anyone interested knows.
                        Yes, please. But if you read it, you should know that the fire in the LM was almost always concentrated on Mikasa, with other ships being hit only fragmentarily.

                        Another failure on our part? Well, I'm not arguing with you. On the contrary, I'm going further and declaring that this entire war, as well as the preparations for it, was a complete failure on our part. And yet, for some reason, you disagree with me.

                        If, instead of the familiar "Bayan," an improved clone of the "San Martin" (24 Belleville boilers, a design power of 15-16 hp, additional 6" guns instead of 120 mm) had been built for the RIF, do you think it would have been worse? Why?

                        Or would it be the same because "there is no difference"?
                        Well, if you read more modern research, at least that of naval_manual, you'll have to cut the sturgeon very sharply.

                        Yes, I read it, I read it. "They Themselves. Losses of the Crew of the Cruiser Nissin in the Battle of Tsushima." If we assume that the three 8" turret guns and the 76 mm No. 5 gun exploded from their own shells, then 4 killed and 38 wounded were attributed to the explosions of their own shells in the barrels.

                        And for hits from Russian shells, a 12" shell into the armor belt, a 9" shell into the bow turret, a 6" shell into the mast boom, a 75 mm shell into the superstructure, there was 1 killed and 10 wounded.

                        The Nissin was well armored against Russian shells. For example, a Russian 9" shell would likely have penetrated the armor of the Olympia's bow main battery turret. It's bad when friendly shells so often explode right in the gun barrels.
                        In total, there were 3 large-caliber hits: 1 12-inch, 1 9-10-inch, and 1 9-inch.


                        And not a single one of these large-caliber hits caused significant damage to the armored cruiser Nisshin. If you say it was because the Russian shells were obsolete, I'd agree with you. Because modern 9-12" armor-piercing and semi-armor-piercing shells, with armor-piercing caps deflected with high explosive and delayed-action fuses, were supposed to penetrate 6" of armor and hit vital compartments deep within the ship in 1905. But what happened was:

                        "The Nissin received a hole in its main armor belt – 152 mm, large caliber. The distance at the moment of impact was apparently 3,000...3,500 m (16...20 cables). The shell was 254 mm or 229 mm, fired from a 254/45 mm or 229/35 mm gun.

                        The hole was located approximately at the waterline level, its height, according to various sources, was 10”..12”, width – 1'10,5” (Fig. 6). The shell exploded on impact.Its head became lodged in the center of a coal pit, and the coal pit itself was flooded. Three men from the 152mm gun crew were injured in casemate No. 14, located above the impact site.


                        "The ship received a hit in the armor of the bow turret - 152 mm, Krupp. The shell - a high-explosive 229 mm or 254 mm, fired from a 229/35 mm or 254/45 mm gun, from a distance of at least 6,000 m (32 cables).

                        The hit was in the front part of the right wall of the turret (Fig. 10), the shell hit at 16:05 – at the moment when the Nissin was firing at the ship located ahead of the beam, one of the last ships of the Russian line achieved the hit.

                        Six men were wounded by shrapnel from this shell (two seriously), including three in the conning tower. Among them were Vice Admiral Misu Sotaro, who was seriously wounded, and the cruiser's senior navigator, Lieutenant Commander Tanaka Yukinao, who was lightly wounded.


                        "Japanese documents also mention a 305mm shell hitting the 152mm belt armor of the Nissin on the left side, but the time of impact is unknown." Didn't break through.

                        Russian large-caliber shells did NOT penetrate the armor of the Nissin cruiser at all, or exploded at the moment of passing through the 6" armor plate.

                        The armor has served its purpose.

                        P.S. Now let's mentally replace the "Nissin" in the Japanese battle line with the "Askold" you mentioned above and think: "Would it make a difference?" (ironic remark)
                      4. +2
                        14 May 2026 18: 17
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        He refused because not even a hit, but a close explosion of a Japanese shell near the side so damaged the strength of the cruiser's hull,

                        That's why I drew your attention to the damage to Askold from direct shell hits. Even with the overall weakness of the hull, direct hits did not disable the cruiser.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Why did you decide to compare the combat survivability of a flimsy armored cruiser, which was knocked out of the war by a mere shell explosion near the side, breaking five frames of the hull, and the combat survivability of an armored cruiser?

                        I wasn't comparing their survivability. I said that in the LM, Askold could have been put in place of Nissin and Kasuga, and he would have survived the fight just as well.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        And for hits from Russian shells, a 12" shell into the armor belt, a 9" shell into the bow turret, a 6" shell into the mast boom, a 75 mm shell into the superstructure, there was 1 killed and 10 wounded.

                        And there is
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        The Nissin was well armored against Russian shells.

                        No, and I've already written why. A single 12-inch shell hit the armor from a very long distance, which made no difference. It was either a glancing blow or from over 45 kbt. That's precisely why Nissin survived—it simply wasn't hit hard.
                      5. +1
                        14 May 2026 19: 18
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        That's why I drew your attention to the damage to Askold from direct shell hits. Even with the overall weakness of the hull, direct hits did not disable the cruiser.

                        Of these hits, one was a large-caliber shell hit, hitting the funnel. After all, it was precisely because of the potential catastrophic consequences of large-caliber shell hits that cruisers, particularly Italian cruisers, "couldn't be deployed in a line"? Or were you joking that Italian cruisers couldn't be deployed in a line?
                        I wasn't comparing their survivability. I said that in the LM, Askold could have been put in place of Nissin and Kasuga, and he would have survived the fight just as well.

                        Well, in response, I'll note that if Nissin or Kasuga had been in Askold's place in the 1st Pacific Fleet, Vitgeft's battlecruiser would likely have deployed the battleships (he did, after all; why shouldn't the Russian commander?), along with the "battleship-cruisers" Peresvet and Pobeda. And perhaps, as a result, not only this battlecruiser would have broken through to Shanghai, but the entire core of the 1st Pacific Fleet, and even to Vladivostok.
                        This is precisely why Nissin survived - he simply wasn't hit hard.

                        "Survived"? Nisshin sustained damage from large-caliber shell hits similar to that sustained by the battleship Mikasa. Either the armor wasn't penetrated by the large-caliber shell, or the damage was localized to the compartment behind the armor plate, with casualties in the casemate above the impact. If Nisshin "didn't suffer any serious hits," then, to be logical and consistent, Mikasa didn't suffer any serious hits either. Mikasa simply took more hits, but all of them were just as minor as the hits on Nisshin.
                      6. +2
                        14 May 2026 20: 56
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Of these hits, one was a large-caliber shell hit, into the chimney.

                        Well, how is it? A number of hits were of indeterminate caliber, or the caliber was determined to be 6-8 inches. An 8-inch is little different from a 9-inch.
                        Moreover, a hit to the base of the chimney was more dangerous than a 12-inch shell that struck the Nissin's armor belt without even scratching it. The second large-caliber shell at least penetrated the Nissin's armor, even though it exploded in the process.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Well, in response, I will note that if Nissin had been in Askold’s place in the 1st TOE

                        Noticed. But your comment has nothing to do with mine.
                        I repeat: in the LM, Nissin and Kasuga weren't the focus of fire; they were rarely hit, so if the Askold had been in their place, the outcome would have been the same. This doesn't mean the Askold is durable, it means Nissin and Kasuga weren't hit very often. And you can argue all you want about Kasuga being "second only to Mikasa in terms of hits," but it was only hit by three shells of an unknown caliber. In other words, it received less firepower than the Askold.
                        Askold's direct hits didn't cause critical damage. The sinkings, which made it impossible to continue the voyage, were caused by shells landing close to the surface.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        When Nissin was hit in the armor by large-caliber shells, she received damage similar to that received by the battleship Mikasa.

                        What are you saying? OK, name which of the Russian shells that hit Nissin caused damage similar to that sustained by Mikasa, Tsushima, at 16:15 (15:57).
                        The impact site was the upper belt opposite coal pit No. 21 under casemate No. 7. The armor thickness was 148 mm Krupp. The range at the time of impact is estimated at 4,000–5,000 meters, or 22–27 artillery cables, but this range should be considered minimal; it could have been greater if the impact had been made from another ship. The angle of deviation from the normal is unknown, but, as will be seen from the explanations below, it was most likely quite large.
                        Consequences. The shell didn’t just penetrate, it simply broke out a huge piece of armor approximately 0,305 x 1 m, and the piece was elongated. This shape can be regarded as evidence of a significant deviation from the normal: apparently, the projectile moved along the slab as if casually, pushing it over a large area (a meter), and the height of the projectile was the size of its caliber. Behind the armor, the shell went inside the coal pit under the ceiling, which served as the 25-mm middle deck, and created a gap approximately 3 m from the armor plate.
                      7. +3
                        15 May 2026 00: 29
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        In particular, the Italian BRKr "could not have been placed in a line"?

                        Alexander, good afternoon!
                        Were you interested in the Kasuga's metacentric height? This information was widely reported in the press at the time...
                        In my opinion, with such a high speed the ship cannot be called anything other than a "self-sinking ship".
                      8. +1
                        15 May 2026 14: 58
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Have you ever wondered about the meaning of Kasuga's metacentric height?

                        I was interested in the value of the metacentric height of cruisers of this type:

                        https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/warships1discussionboards/the-garibaldi-clas-armored-cruisers-in-the-argenti-t40892-s140.html

                        - Empty metacentric height: 0.44 meters with 5,540 ts (previously 0.41 meters).
                        - Loaded metacentric height: 1.44 meters with 7,300 ts (previously 1.16 meters).
                        Source: "Guardacosta General Belgrano". History II. 1929.

                        https://keu-ocr.narod.ru/Bayan/chap04.html

                        "Accordion"

                        Transverse metacentric height at standard displacement, m 0,860
                        Transverse metacentric height at full displacement, m 1,134
                        The greatest transverse metacentric height, m ​​1,330

                        You remember, of course, that the Giuseppe Garibaldi sank on an almost even keel after being torpedoed by the U-4 submarine?
                      9. +2
                        15 May 2026 15: 15
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Transverse metacentric height at full displacement, m 1,134

                        At full displacement, the Kasuga has a displacement of 0,72 m, while the Nissin has a displacement of 0,71 m.
                        In those years, large ships with such a small MCD were rejected at the design stage in the RIF.

                        And don't forget, no one planned to put the Bayan into the battle line.
                      10. +1
                        15 May 2026 15: 52
                        Quote: rytik32
                        At full displacement, the Kasuga has a displacement of 0,72 m, while the Nissin has a displacement of 0,71 m.

                        Lies from the then Janes.

                        https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/warships1discussionboards/the-garibaldi-clas-armored-cruisers-in-the-argenti-t40892-s70.html

                        "At that time, Jane's was a trade publication. Frederick T. Jane published a book extolling the Russian navy to the skies, and we all know what happened in the Russo-Japanese War of 1905. He wrote similarly despairingly about the Garibaldi-class armored cruisers. Fortunately, his followers in the 1930s recognized that the Garibaldi was the most successful class of armored cruisers built at that time."
                        And don't forget, no one planned to put the Bayan into the battle line.

                        Not from great intelligence. Due to their lack of understanding, the MTK didn't understand the importance of modern high-explosive shells and assumed we had good armor-piercing shells. But as we recall (in hindsight), no one had good armor-piercing shells back then.

                        Document No. FO 118/25, supplement to document FO 118/57, 30 April 1902, Sir William Barrington (British Ambassador in Buenos Aires to Lord Lowther (British Ambassador in Santiago, Chile).

                        "The comparison shows that the balance of forces is on the side of Argentina, since if we look at what each country can put on the battlefield, we see that Chile has three armored ships, the largest of which is the O'Higgins. This ship, although well armed and fast, would not last long in a battle against one of the Garibaldis due to poor organization and weak armor." Despite the fact that the Captain Prat wears very thick armor on the belt and barbettes, it is poorly protected and very vulnerable to grenades from the Garibaldi, to which it has no way of responding. As for the Esmeralda, it is a well-armed ship, but it cannot participate in a battle of the line due to the almost complete lack of protection. On the other hand, Argentina has four (ships) of the Garibaldi class, which are equipped with more powerful armament than any of the Chilean ships and (are protected) by very thick a layer of armor steel, invulnerable to Chilean artillery at all possible ranges. Speaking of cruisers, of the Argentine ships, only the Buenos Aires, 9 de Julio, and 25 de Mayo are worth noting against the Encalada, Centeno, and Chacabuco of the Chilean flotilla. Here we see equal forces, and if we compare the torpedo boat flotillas, Chile comes out on top. But torpedo boats are purely defensive and local weapons, and if we compare Chile's densely populated coastlines and numerous undefended ports with Argentina's uninhabited coastlines and rivers (which are protected by nature itself), we will see that Chile's superiority in defensive elements is only apparent. Finally, if we consider auxiliary vessels, Argentina has three, while Chile has only one. In any case, the balance is in Argentina's favor, so this country will in no way lose if an agreement is concluded. an agreement under which Chile would cancel its orders for new ships from England and coastal artillery from Germany, and Argentina, for its part, would refrain from acquiring ships under construction or planned."
                      11. +4
                        15 May 2026 17: 12
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Lies from the then Janes

                        I cited data not from Janes, but from Engineering
                        You provided data from a modern forum. laughing
                        And as of 1929.
                        Well, the entry Loaded metacentric height: 1.44 meters with 7,300 ts (previously 1.16 meters)
                        This perfectly illustrates that the admirals understood the full harmfulness of the low MCC and made every effort to increase it.
                      12. 0
                        15 May 2026 22: 51
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I cited data not from Janes, but from Engineering
                        You provided data from a modern forum.

                        1. I have given you data on the metacentric height of the General Belgrano with a displacement of 7300 tons after modernization - 1,44 m, and before modernization - 1,16 m. The source of the figures in the link is indicated. "Guardacosta General Belgrano". History II. 1929.

                        Why anyone would lie about the metacentric height of the aforementioned armored cruiser "General Belgrano" "on a modern forum" today, outside the context of some discussion about its supposed lack of stability, I don't know. Do you know?

                        Why did the Anglo-Saxons, at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries, need to lie to the whole world about the shortcomings of the Garibaldi-class armored cruisers, the most successful series of export armored cruisers of the second half of the 1890s and early 1900s, I can only guess.

                        2. You didn't provide a link to Engineering. Please provide it, I'll take a look. Maybe your memory is off and the numbers are different.

                        3. Scientific American Supplement 1898-12-17: Vol 46 Iss 1198 writes about good sea-keeping qualities:

                        https://archive.org/details/sim_scientific-american-supplement_1898-12-17_46_1198/mode/2up

                        "It would be difficult to find any class of ships in which, on a given displacement—something under 7,000 tons—so many excellent features are combined. They all have high speed, excellent armor protection, an extremely heavy battery, and good sea-keeping qualities."

                        I'm really curious who was spouting that nonsense about the Kasuga and Nissin having a metacentric height of 0,71-0,72 meters at full displacement. Will you provide names, addresses, and passwords?

                        I've already quoted a translation of an internal British diplomatic document from 1902. The document makes it clear that the O'Higgins (normal displacement 7921 tons, British built, 1897) wouldn't last long in a battle against a single Garibaldi (normal displacement 6840 tons, Italian built, 1896). Should I provide a page reference?
                        URL:

                        https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/15085/202311/10759009_0e8986ecec9af2b9b0de670e7e13616c.jpeg

                        In short, the Russian MTC, while searching for a prototype for the future "Bayan," committed yet another "oversight." According to V. Ya. Krestyaninov, the "Cruisers of the Russian Imperial Navy" at the MTC were subjected to:

                        "A careful analysis of the "latest typical examples of cruisers": cruisers of the "Diana" type built in Russia; the French "Dupuy de Lom"; the English "Aurora", "Arrogant", "Edgar", the German "Freya" type; the Italian "Carlo Alberto"; the Chilean "Esmeralda".

                        But they forgot to "subject to careful analysis" the "Garibaldi", which had already been commissioned, and the "San Martin", which was under construction, developed on the basis of the "Carlo Alberto".

                        V. Ya. Krestyaninov himself did not forget to mention that: "The armored cruisers built between 1895 and 1902 in Italy, the prototype of which was the "Garibaldi", with a moderate displacement (6840-7500 tons) had artillery no less powerful than that on the Japanese armored cruisers, almost the same armor and were not much inferior to them in speed."

                        Our wise MTC, in the Bayan incident, once again misjudged everything, "wanted the best, but it turned out as usual." The only result of these efforts was that the MTC, to the best of its collective abilities, pushed the Russian Imperial Navy one step closer to defeat in the future Russo-Japanese War. With hindsight, we can say this with complete confidence.

                        Why we need to dig up old Anglo-Saxon tales about the supposed critical flaws of the Garibaldi-class armored cruisers (and the Nisshin and Kasuga in particular) I don't know. Do you know?

                        Try searching for a single modern source with the "burning truth" about the Nisshin and Kasuga's 0,71-0,72 m metacentric height. There are none. Because the authors see no point in spreading the delusional negative publicity that was occasionally aired in the Anglo-Saxon press at the turn of the 20th century, claiming that the Garibaldi-class armored cruisers were "self-sinking" due to their critically low metacentric height.

                        I didn't quote you the "burning truth" from the yellow press of the time, but an internal British diplomatic document from 1902, which clearly stated that the "O'Higgins" would not last long in a fight against one of the "Garibaldis".

                        Well, the wise MTK officials ordered a "Bayan" from France, which would not have lasted long in a battle against the "O'Higgins" and thus (for the umpteenth time) admitted their incompetence.

                        The only thing we can add is that the "Bayan" cost the Russian treasury ~7,4 million rubles, while the Argentine treasury paid four armored cruisers:

                        Garibaldi: £752,000 (RUB 7,11 million)
                        San Martin: £688,000 (RUB 6,51 million)
                        Pueyredon: £782,000 (RUB 7,40 million)
                        General Belgrano: £687,700 (RUB 6,51 million)

                        The wise MTK bought a very mediocre armored cruiser from the French at an inflated price, and after the Empire's defeat in the Russo-Japanese War, when the project was completely outdated, for lack of a better one, repeated it three more times at its shipyards.

                        A curtain.
                      13. +1
                        15 May 2026 23: 00
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        repeated it three more times at his shipyards.

                        And the Admiral Makarov was built at a domestic shipyard?
                        I really didn’t know!
                        Really
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        A curtain
                      14. +1
                        16 May 2026 00: 43
                        Quote: rytik32
                        And the Admiral Makarov was built at a domestic shipyard?
                        I really didn’t know!

                        The main thing you know is that Nissin and Kasuga were "self-sinking" (in your opinion). wink

                        And the fact that I forgot that the Admiral Makarov, like the Bayan, was built in Toulon, happens to everyone. wink

                        P.S. I won't hide the fact that according to your criteria for "samotopes", the Iwate built by the Anglo-Saxons was one (all the other "asamoids" weren't far behind):

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_cruiser_Iwate

                        Iwate displaced 9,423 metric tons (9,274 long tons) at normal load and 10,235 metric tons (10,073 long tons) at deep load. The ship had a metacentric height of 0.73 meters (2 ft 5 in).[3]

                        As for the insufficient metacentric height of the Nissin and Kasuga, the ancient Anglo-Saxons misled you. The Anglo-Saxons regularly attributed to others the nasty things they actually did themselves. wink
                      15. 0
                        16 May 2026 11: 04
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        had a metacentric height of 0.73 meters

                        This is most likely a typo, since the same type of "Izumo" had an MCV of 0,88.
                        "Asama" - 0,85, "Tokiwa" - 0,88.
                      16. +1
                        16 May 2026 16: 40
                        Hello, Alexey. I found the article you mentioned in Engineering. What a detailed article. And the metacentric heights are calculated to within one thousandth of a meter.

                        Alexey, while studying this article, were you not surprised that the change in the displacement of the cruisers from normal to full, the Kasuga from 7729.[000] tons (that's what it says, with three zeros after the period) to 8729.[000] tons (with 1000 tons of additional load, however), the Nissin from 7771.[000] tons to 8518.[000] tons (with 747 tons) in neither the first nor the second case did not shift the metacenters and centers of gravity of the cruisers even by a millimeter?

                        Accordingly, the metacentric heights calculated by the author/authors with an accuracy of up to a millimeter have not changed even by a millimeter.

                        If I'm the first one to notice these "typos," then I don't even know what to write next. Other than laughing my ass off.

                        The article scan was either Photoshopped in this place, or, you know, the printing house at one time made a really bad typo with the numbers in the columns. Multiple times. laughing

                        I can't believe the author or authors of this article were deliberately mocking its future readers with the "the people will gobble it up" trope. In 1905, the authors and writers of Engineering weren't exactly taking Engineering readers for complete idiots. That wasn't the norm in those good old days, before "higher technical education" became widespread. wink
                      17. +2
                        16 May 2026 20: 33
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        In neither the first nor the second case did the metacenters and centers of gravity of the cruisers shift even by a millimeter?

                        The error is possible, but very small. Another, modern source indicates an almost identical MTSV.
                      18. 0
                        17 May 2026 08: 40
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The error is possible, but very small. Another, modern source indicates an almost identical MTSV.

                        Since the MTK didn't even consider the Garibaldi or San Martin as prototypes, our argument is purely scholastic. In any case, the cruisers of this series had a main armor belt 2,8-3 meters high (according to various sources) and a thickness of 150 mm amidships (Asamoids, as is known, had a main armor belt 2,14 meters high and up to 178 mm thick), and an upper armor belt amidships also 150 mm thick (Asamoids had 127 mm). Using the Garibaldi/San Martin as a prototype, it would have been sufficient to thicken the main belt at the expense of the thinner upper belt (the Bayan cruiser, as is well known, had a very narrow main belt, only 1,8 meters high, and the upper belt was only 60 mm thick. Compared to the Garibaldi, the Bayan cruiser's hull was very poorly armored), and the metacentric height of the modified prototype would have been perfect. It would have increased from 0,73 meters to the desired MTH of at least 0,76 meters.

                        For some reason, MTK (according to V. Ya. Krestyaninov) "subjected the Carlo Alberto to a thorough analysis", but completely forgot about the existence of the turreted Garibaldi/San Martin, for which the Carlo Alberto served as a prototype.

                        Well, it happens. Memory-enhancing medications and nootropics, which MTK clearly should have been taking with his entire team, had unfortunately not yet been invented at that time.
                      19. +2
                        17 May 2026 09: 39
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        MTK did not even consider the Garibaldi or San Martin as a prototype

                        And he was right to do so. These are "battleships for the poor," but what the squadron needed was a reconnaissance vessel. It needed speed more than armor.
                      20. 0
                        17 May 2026 18: 50
                        So we're going to start a religious war over a speed difference of less than a knot during trials? It's clear that the Garibaldi would never have reached 21 knots during trials, no matter what, that's what their hull hydrodynamics were designed for. But the Bayan also achieved ~20,9 knots during 12-hour trials on October 14 and 16, 1902.

                        This is less than the Asama. Essentially, MTK bought a "squadron reconnaissance" craft from the French, which, based on sea trials, clearly couldn't outrun the Asama. Moreover, given the Bayan's armor, it would have been forced to try unsuccessfully to outrun the Asama with its—pardon the pun—"bare ass."

                        And by using the Garibaldi as a prototype, MTK could have bought, even from the French, a "squadron scout", from which not only the armored deck "dogs" of the Mikado fleet would have been forced to flee, but also the "Asams" (in the case of 10" main battery turrets, for sure).

                        "A scout for the squadron" which, if necessary, would normally stand in the line of battle together with the notorious "cruiser-battleships" and would normally hold that line.

                        But the Russian Navy, which spent approximately 500 million rubles on ships (on construction alone) in the 20 years before the Russo-Japanese War, wasn't rich enough to buy universal armored "squadron scouts," was it?
                      21. +2
                        17 May 2026 19: 54
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        And we're going to start a religious war over a speed difference of less than a knot during testing?

                        What kind of knot is that?:))) Bayan was tested on natural draft, the Italians - definitely on artificial draft.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        In fact, MTK bought a "squadron reconnaissance aircraft" from the French, which, based on the results of sea trials, clearly could not escape from the Asama.

                        Easy. The Asamoids weren't even close to Bayan; they couldn't even catch up with the VOK and old man Rurik.
                      22. +1
                        17 May 2026 22: 37
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        What kind of knot is that?:))) Bayan was tested on natural draft, the Italians - definitely on artificial draft.

                        Are you trying to implicitly say that the Bayana's crane manoeuvre was heavier than the manoeuvre manoeuvres of the Nissin and Kasuga cruisers?

                        I have an article from Engineering. And so:

                        On July 22, 1903, Kasuga, with a displacement of 7360 tons and an engine power of 10174 horsepower, demonstrated a speed of 18.46 knots.
                        On September 29, 1903, Kasuga, with a displacement of 7400 tons and an engine power of 14944 horsepower, demonstrated a speed of 20.05 knots.
                        On October 26, 1903, Nissin, with a displacement of 7347 tons and an engine power of 10688 hp, demonstrated a speed of 18.74 angles.
                        On November 6, 1903, Nissin, with a displacement of 7413 tons and an engine power of 14896 horsepower, demonstrated a speed of 20.15 knots.

                        Oleg. "The left engine, with a power of 8384,5 hp, developed 126,4 rpm, the right engine, with 8575, developed 127,9 rpm; the average was 127,15 rpm with a total of 16959,5 hp, and taking into account 5% for auxiliary mechanisms (508,5 hp) - 17468 hp."

                        It is also known that during tests on May 16, 1902 at full speed (8 runs), the cruiser’s engines demonstrated an average value of 128 revolutions, with the average speed being 20,5 knots.

                        There were also runs on June 30 and June 31, during which the cars accelerated to 134 revolutions and the speed reached 21,01 and even 21.3 knots, but I did not find out what the power of the cars was.

                        Do you know what the speed of the Kasuga and Nissin would be if they "hypothetically" received a Bayan crane with a power of 17500 hp without forced traction?
                        Kassuga - 21.03 knots, Nissin - 21,19 knots.

                        Calculation using the standard hydrodynamic formula for the dependence of speed on power (P_1/P_2 = (V_1/V_2)^n). Taking into account that starting from 20 knots the wave resistance of the hulls of the Giuseppe Garibaldi type increases sharply, not the cubic power n=3 was used, but the power n=3,3.

                        In general, with Bayan's machines, Nissin and Kasuga would demonstrate Bayan's speed in tests.

                        Are you trying to explain to me that the Bayan crane-mounted propulsion system would never have fit into the hulls of these cruisers, either due to their weight or the volume they occupied? So, our hypothetical "armored reconnaissance aircraft for the squadron" would be a copy of the Giuseppe Garibaldi, but with the Bayan crane-mounted propulsion system instead of the one found on the Nisshin and Kasuga, with fire-tube boilers and a power output of ~14900 shp with forced blast.

                        Thus, if the brains at the MTK had been turned on in a timely manner, they could have received not a Bayan, but a cruiser based on the Italian model with a normal displacement of ~7400 tons, a speed of 21 knots during trials with a crane power of 17500 hp, a full main belt at the waterline 2,8 meters high with a maximum thickness of 178 mm, a second, reaching the upper deck, 127 mm belt protecting, in particular, the casemate of the SK artillery, turret armament of two 10"/45 guns (then the "Asama" would definitely run away from such) with an elevation angle of up to 35 degrees, or four 8"/45, with vertical turret armor of 152 mm, with 14 6"/45 Canet guns, 10 of which would be protected by casemate armor. And all this for the price of a Bayan.

                        But MTK managed not to notice a normal prototype and received a "bare-assed" Bayan with an incomplete main belt at the waterline, only 1,8 meters high, a thickness of at best 200 mm in the upper part, 150 mm in the middle, and 100 mm in the lower part, a narrow upper belt and artillery protection of only 60 mm, and a broadside salvo of two 8" and four 6" guns, instead of two 10" (four 8") and seven 6".

                        All they needed was to spot a real-life prototype being built in large quantities. They couldn't even do that.
                      23. +2
                        18 May 2026 07: 39
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Are you trying to implicitly say that the Bayana's crane manoeuvre was heavier than the manoeuvre manoeuvres of the Nissin and Kasuga cruisers?

                        I want to say that if Kasuga and Nissin were tested under the same conditions as Bayan, they would show 18 knots. As comrade Koffman writes
                        The maximum power under boost was designed to be 13,000 hp for the first five cruisers (the Argentine and Colon); on the last five, whose displacement increased by 500–800 tons, the power increased to 13,500 hp. Without boost, the machinery was expected to develop up to 8500 hp at a ship speed of approximately 18 knots.

                        So the difference in speed between Bayan and Kasuga is about 2,5-3 knots.
                      24. 0
                        18 May 2026 09: 53
                        So the difference in speed between Bayan and Kasuga is about 2,5-3 knots.

                        Not quite so, because a forced-powered Bayan wouldn't have reached 22 knots. This is due to poorly selected propellers and the general "immaturity" of the French hull hydrodynamics (Jean d'Arc has 33000 hp and only 21,8 knots).
                        The following "accordions" were developed further.
                      25. 0
                        18 May 2026 09: 57
                        Quote: anzar
                        Not exactly, because a forced Bayan would not have developed 22 knots.

                        I'm not talking about afterburners, but about natural thrust.
                      26. +1
                        18 May 2026 10: 42
                        ...and about natural draft.
                        Of course, but afterburning isn't prohibited in combat conditions. Although even with it, the Nissin can't exceed 19 knots by much. And the Bayan, with its new propellers, would exceed 21,5 knots.
                      27. 0
                        18 May 2026 10: 56
                        Quote: anzar
                        Of course, but afterburning is not prohibited in combat conditions)

                        Of course not. Afterburner is a last resort. Firstly, it can't be maintained for long, technically speaking. Secondly, it's like "making beer and graphite"—the stokers will be exhausted. Thirdly, in combat, the Italians are overloaded by default—they were designed for a normal coal reserve of 400 tons, which is very little, so they took more, and this also affects speed.
                      28. +1
                        18 May 2026 14: 01
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        So the difference in speed between Bayan and Kasuga is about 2,5-3 knots.

                        These were the problems of fleets that professed the British approach to the issue - the maximum design capacity of the crane is achieved only with forced blast.

                        If MTK had taken the "Garibaldi" project as a prototype, then our "Garibaldi" would have had a crane manipulator with the parameters of the crane manipulator of the actually built "Bayan" and our "Garibaldi" would have delivered not 20, but 21 knots during tests with a crane manipulator capacity of 16,5 thousand indicated forces, and if it was inferior to the real "Bayan" in its tests, then only by a few hundredths of a knot.

                        But the MTK only became interested in the Ansaldo armored cruiser in 1904, when it was already completely irrelevant. Or rather, it was only slightly more relevant than the plans to build "improved Bayan" cruisers in 1904.
                      29. +1
                        18 May 2026 15: 42
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        If MTK had taken the Garibaldian project as a prototype, our Garibaldian would have had a crane manipulator with the parameters of the crane manipulator of the actually built Bayan.

                        Which was completely impossible due to the fact that Bayan's CMU would not have fit into the Garibaldian.
                      30. 0
                        18 May 2026 18: 15
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Which was completely impossible due to the fact that Bayan's CMU would not have fit into the Garibaldian.

                        Why was such an unsubstantiated assertion necessary? I'm citing the weights of the main water-filled machinery and the feedwater reserves. What evidence do you have? Provide at least some figures.
                      31. +2
                        18 May 2026 08: 27
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Thus, if the brains at the MTK had been turned on in a timely manner, they could have received not a Bayan, but a cruiser based on the Italian model with a normal displacement of ~7400 tons, a speed of 21 knots during trials with a crane power of 17500 hp, a full main belt at the waterline 2,8 meters high with a maximum thickness of 178 mm, a second, reaching the upper deck, 127 mm belt protecting, in particular, the casemate of the SK artillery, turret armament of two 10"/45 guns (then the "Asama" would definitely run away from such) with an elevation angle of up to 35 degrees, or four 8"/45, with vertical turret armor of 152 mm, with 14 6"/45 Canet guns, 10 of which would be protected by casemate armor. And all this for the price of a Bayan.

                        Dear Alexander, unfortunately, it wouldn't have worked. It's possible to deploy the Bayan crane manipulator, but you're forgetting about the coal reserves and water for the boilers. Based on the ITC requirements for range, speed, and the tactical views of the Russian Navy, the displacement and hull size would need to be increased. The end result would be an armored cruiser with a displacement of approximately 9000 tons, but this would no longer be a scout, but a full-fledged armored cruiser.
                      32. 0
                        18 May 2026 10: 27
                        It is possible to install the Bayana crane, but you forget about the coal reserves and water for the boilers.

                        ?? Coal reserve normal/full
                        Bayan 750/1020t Nissin 650/1180t (more or less))
                      33. +1
                        18 May 2026 10: 57
                        Quote: anzar
                        Bayan 750/1020t Nissin 650/1180t (more or less))

                        No, as far as I know:))) The cruisers were designed for 400 tons of coal, the Japanese had 650 by expanding their coal pits. But the speed was measured at 400 tons.
                      34. +1
                        18 May 2026 12: 05
                        The cruisers were designed to carry 400 tons of coal.

                        These are the first Argentinians with a standard displacement of 6800 tons.
                        the Japanese had 650

                        So what is "no" then?
                        But the speed was measured at 400 t

                        This isn't about her. It's about a Garibaldian with Bayan's power. He'll be short of coal and water. But his speed probably won't increase much without lengthening his hull.
                      35. +1
                        18 May 2026 13: 03
                        Quote: anzar
                        These are the first Argentinians with a standard displacement of 6800 tons.

                        OK, I'll take a closer look.
                        Quote: anzar
                        This isn't about her. It's about the Garibaldian with Bayan's power.

                        Do you think it will fit?
                      36. +2
                        18 May 2026 13: 56
                        Do you think it will fit?

                        I don't know, a colleague suggested that. Bayan cars are longer (4 cylinders), so they're more like Retvizan cars. "Almost" Bayan Bellevilles would fit somewhere around 24 - 6 rows of 4 (i.e., not 26). I wouldn't install Bellevilles.
                        And all this makes no sense without increasing the length of the extremities (not the casemate)
                        Here is the "long" Ferucho with the Russian layout of the boiler rooms
                      37. 0
                        18 May 2026 15: 09
                        Quote: anzar
                        And all this is meaningless without increasing the length of the extremities

                        An elementary calculation using the standard hydrodynamic formula for the dependence of speed on power (P_1/P_2 = (V_1/V_2)^n), with an inflated coefficient n=3,3 taking into account the short hull of the Garibaldi ships instead of the standard n=3 for this speed range, shows that the required power of the machines was ~17500 hp for the Kasuga to accelerate to 21.03 knots, and the Nissin to 21,19 knots.

                        Having condescended to consider the Ansaldo company's project in 1904, the MTK believed that with the engines boosted to 15200 horsepower, the Garibaldi would achieve 20,4 knots, while the improved Bayan with a 16500 horsepower crane would give 21 knots; the project from the Danish company Burmeister and Wein, with a 16500 horsepower crane (with formation), would also give 21 knots.

                        The reason for rejecting the Ansaldo project was not the 0,6 knot speed reduction (in addition to the formation of the CMU), but, according to R.M. Melnikov: "The shortcomings of the Italian design included the suspiciously lightweight gun mounts, the supposedly shortened (40 caliber) 8-inch and 6-inch guns, and the manual feed only. The stumbling block was the new design's displacement limitation, which was not to exceed that of the Bayan. This was some kind of artificial device, intended to discard the Ansaldo project."

                        It is noteworthy that, according to the compiled table of characteristics (RGA VMF, f. 421, on. 1, d. 1650, p. 1), the normal displacement of the cruiser according to the Ansaldo project was taken as 7750 tons, the cruiser according to the improved Bayan project from Forge et Chantier - 7802 tons, the cruiser according to the project from Burmeister and Wein - 8100 tons.

                        A curtain.

                        In general: "These Russians will come up with anything to avoid building..." normal cruisers.
                      38. +1
                        18 May 2026 15: 44
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        An elementary calculation using the standard hydrodynamic formula for the dependence of speed on power (P_1/P_2 = (V_1/V_2)^n), with an inflated coefficient n=3,3 taking into account the short-hulled nature of the Garibaldians instead of the standard n=3 for this speed range, shows that the required power of the machines was ~17500 hp for the Kasuga to accelerate to 21.03 knots, and the Nissin to 21,19 knots.

                        Did you even understand what you wrote?:)))))))
                      39. +1
                        18 May 2026 16: 53
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Did you even understand what you wrote?:)))))))

                        I have an engineering background. wink

                        So, with a 14896-hp turbine, the speed was 20,15 knots. What would the speed be if the turbine's power increased to 17500 hp?

                        The speed will be:

                        V_2 = V_1 * SQRT3,3(P_2/P_1) = 20,15 * SQRT3,3(17500/14896) = 21,16 knots

                        It's a school problem. wink

                        Do you want me to recalculate for n = 3? After all:

                        https://helpiks.org/8-13279.html

                        "There is a relationship: to increase the speed by n times, the engine power must be increased by n3 times."

                        20,15 * SQRT3(17500/14896) = 21,26 knots.

                        If anything is unclear, please ask. The Nissin's speed and the power of the steam turbine during sea trials on November 6, 1903, are taken from an article about the Kasuga and Nissin in "Engineering," April 21, 1905.
                      40. +1
                        18 May 2026 18: 06
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        It's a school problem.

                        Ага.
                        Nissin entered trials 287 tons underloaded. Taking this into account and calculating through the Admiralty coefficient, we obtain the same coefficient for displacement of 7,413 tons = 196,8, with which a speed of 21,26 knots is achievable with 17,937 horsepower.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        I have an engineering background.

                        Noticeably laughing
                      41. 0
                        18 May 2026 18: 59
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Noticeably

                        It's obvious you have no engineering education. Your so-called "objections" lack a single formula. It's all giggles. You're not interesting today.

                        Nissin began her trials on November 6, 1903, with a displacement of 7413 tons (metric). Nissin's declared normal displacement is 7771 tons. So, do the math.
                      42. 0
                        18 May 2026 21: 47
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        In your, so to speak, “objections,” there is not a single formula.

                        You see, humanities majors interested in the navy know the formula for admiralty coefficients by heart. But I always forget I'm talking to a trained engineer; how could he possibly know the formulas?
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        So consider.

                        The calculation has already been presented to you.
                      43. 0
                        18 May 2026 22: 49
                        I hope my own calculation using the Admiralty coefficient formula has convinced you, dear Andrey, that I was absolutely right in stating that with a crane engine power of 17500 hp, the Kasuga and Nissin would have been able to demonstrate a speed of 21 knots during sea trials?

                        Moreover, even with a displacement of 7700 tons.

                        But 16500 horsepower would not have been enough to achieve 21 knots, even with a displacement of 7400 tons.

                        In that case, what were you trying to say with your hi-hi? It's a rhetorical question.
                      44. +1
                        19 May 2026 06: 56
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        I hope to independently calculate using the Admiralty coefficient formula

                        Showed that your calculation
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        20,15 * SQRT3(17500/14896) = 21,26 knots.

                        It's a little off. That's all. Because the engineer doesn't know. In this case, the correct calculation would be using the Admiralty coefficient method, which wouldn't provide a good approximation in other cases, but in just such cases, it does. :)
                        Keep showing off your engineering background.
                      45. 0
                        19 May 2026 13: 23
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It showed that your calculation 20,15 * SQRT3(17500/14896) = 21,26 knots... is slightly wrong. That's all.


                        Did you notice that my initial calculation was based on n=3,3, resulting in a speed of 21,16 knots? But it was explained why n=3,3. For n=3, the calculation for a displacement of 7413 tons turned out to be completely accurate. Imagine, it turns out the calculation can be done in different ways. wink

                        If you were to put the figures from Nissin's sea trials on November 6, 1903: 7413 tons, 14896 hp, speed 20.15 knots into the formula for admiralty coefficients, you would get

                        C = 7413 2/3 * 20,153/14896 ~ 208,81

                        Accordingly, with the machine power of 17500 hp and C=208,81, we would obtain according to the formula of Admiralty coefficients:

                        21,26 knots with a displacement of 7413 tons
                        21,08 knots with a displacement of 7700 tons
                        21,04 knots with a displacement of 7775 tons

                        Try it.
                        Keep showing off your engineering background.

                        Actually, I'll be forced to post a demotivator about "amazing stories" when you start writing in the next articles of this series that "Bayan" in the technical person we know was the optimal choice for RIF, found by our wise MTK; there simply wasn't a better choice.

                        Or will you NOT pull the wool over the eyes of the readers of "Military Review"? wink
                      46. +2
                        19 May 2026 07: 32
                        Was I absolutely right in saying that with a crane power of 17500 hp, the Kasuga and Nissin would be able to demonstrate a speed of 21 knots during sea trials?

                        Moreover, even with a displacement of 7700 tons.

                        It is better to calculate according to Afanasyev’s formula, it takes into account the current displacement and individual characteristics of the ship.
                      47. +1
                        19 May 2026 15: 43
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        It is better to calculate according to Afanasyev’s formula, it takes into account the current displacement and individual characteristics of the ship.

                        I couldn't find Afanasyev's formula that takes into account the ship's current displacement and individual characteristics. Afanasyev's formula, which calculates speed based on propeller speed, doesn't take all of this into account.

                        We need to estimate the power of the steam turbine for a speed of 21 knots. Any calculation formulas for such a small speed increase yield a perfectly acceptable result.
                      48. +1
                        22 May 2026 04: 48
                        I couldn't find Afanasyev's formula that takes into account the current displacement and individual characteristics of the ship.

                        Below is a scan. L is the length between the perpendiculars.
                        First, we calculate the actual coefficient "A", at 7413t/20,15 knots/14896 hp, we get 24,97.
                        Substituting this into the formula for 17500 hp/7700 t, we get a speed of 20,97 knots (the same as the Bayan).
                      49. 0
                        22 May 2026 08: 57
                        Thank you!

                        It is interesting that with such a short hull, which allowed for such powerful artillery, with a 3-meter high main armor belt and armored central part of the hull up to the upper deck, achieving the designed 21 knots full speed could be paid for with "only" an additional ~1000 horsepower of the machines compared to the Bayan crane manoeuvring unit, with its 135 meter hull length between perpendiculars.

                        It turns out that chasing a hull L/B ratio of 7,0 or higher for a 21-knot cruiser of the time was not worth it. A mere 6% increase in crane capacity, given a relatively short hull with an L/B ratio just under 6,0, was sufficient.
                      50. +3
                        22 May 2026 15: 39
                        Thank you!

                        Pls!
                        The first Bayan had a problem with its propellers. When the second one was fitted with proper ones, the speed dropped to over 22 knots, despite the increased actual displacement.
                        And the Bayanovskaya crane manipulator is not included in the short corps of the Garibaldian - this is if you are chasing twenty-one knots.
                      51. 0
                        22 May 2026 18: 43
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        The first Bayan had a problem with the propellers. When the second one was upgraded to proper ones, the speed dropped to over 22 knots.

                        During full-speed engine tests on October 14 and 16, 1902, the "Bayan" demonstrated an average full speed of 20,90 knots for both runs, with an average rpm of 126,57. The average engine power during these tests was also reported to be 16357 hp.

                        The average speed of the Admiral Makarov during 12-hour runs at full speed on February 4 and 6, 1908, was 21,1966 knots. Engine power during these runs ranged from 14499 to 15686 horsepower.

                        And on May 17, 2011, during an 8-hour test of the engines at full speed, "despite the 550-ton overload, the Bayan ver. 2.0 managed to reach an average speed of 21,8 knots (the highest was 22,3 knots) with a total engine power of 18107 hp."

                        Of course, one could argue that the first Bayan had a problem with its propellers. But the first Bayan didn't have engines capable of producing more than 18 horsepower, and at times even exceeding 19 horsepower.
                        And the Bayanovskaya CMU is not included in the short corps of the Garibaldian

                        The short hulls of the Garabaldians included a crane manoeuvre with 24 Belleville or Nikloss boilers. Incidentally, the short hull of the Tsarevich included a crane manoeuvre with 20 Belleville boilers (like the Bayan, with economizers). On July 10, 1903, during a 12-hour test run, with an average total engine power of 15254 hp, it demonstrated a speed of 18,77 knots. The battleship's displacement at the start of the trials was 13,046.7 tons.

                        L/B for the Tsarevich is 117,2 / 23,2 = 5,05

                        In general, with the French crane "Garibaldiets" if not 21 knots, then 20,5 knots would definitely be demonstrated in a 12-hour test.
                      52. +2
                        24 May 2026 12: 03
                        The short hulls of the Garabaldians included a CMU with 24 Belleville or Nicloss boilers.

                        Belleville boilers had a different number of elements, from 6 to 9. Therefore, the power of 16 and 24 boilers on the Garibaldians is almost the same.
                        They say the Garibaldian crane length is 51 meters. Bayan's is 63,9 meters, and Tses's (if you rotate the boilers lengthwise) is 52,4 meters, but you need to add the 3,6 meters of boiler length to the hull (if you want to achieve 17500 horsepower).
                        Therefore, the Bayan KMU and the enlarged Tsesa are not included in the Garibaldian corps.
                        Nikloss might fit in - I didn't look, but 21 units on the "DG" gave only 13500 without afterburner, and afterburner was not allowed in the RIF.
                      53. 0
                        24 May 2026 23: 30
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Belleville boilers had a different number of elements, from 6 to 9.

                        Yes, and this number of sections depended on the width of the boiler compartment in which the boiler was installed, not its length. The boilers were, in the vast majority of cases, arranged transversely. Let me remind you that the "Garibaldians" had wider hulls than the "Bayan."

                        Let me remind you that our MTK required boiler plants whose steam output, when all boilers were in operation, simply couldn't be utilized by the machines. The situation was particularly idiotic at the Peresvets—30 Belleville boilers, model 1894, with a total heating surface of 4036,5 m² and a total grate area of ​​129,36 m². Meanwhile, the machines had a design capacity of only 14,500 indicated horsepower.

                        Let me remind you that on the "Tsarevich", with engines with a design capacity of 16300 indicated horsepower, the total heating surface was only 3872,8, and the total area of ​​the grate was only 118,56 m².

                        Our MTK should have rejected the "Tsarevich" project due to the insufficiency of the total area of ​​the grate and the total heating surface of the boiler unit for the declared design capacity of the machines, according to our accepted standards.

                        But this was a designer who had come all the way from France, favored by Grand Duke Alexei Alexandrovich. Therefore, our collective, wise MTK failed to notice this flaw in the French design suddenly revealed to its attention. :)
                        Therefore, the Bayan KMU and the enlarged Tsesa are not included in the Garibaldian corps. Nikloss might be included.

                        Let's recall the Noman boilers. The Bogatyr had 16 of them, with a design capacity of 19500 indicated horsepower. Will 16 Norman boilers be installed in the boiler rooms of the Garibaldi redesigned for the Russian Imperial Fleet to support the crane manipulator with a design capacity of 17500 indicated horsepower?

                        I checked with the AI. The answer: "The boiler rooms of the Italian cruiser Varese could physically accommodate approximately 16 to 18 Norman water-tube boilers, similar to those used in the Bogatyr-class cruisers' boiler control systems."

                        The AI ​​also estimated for me that a classic four-cylinder triple-expansion engine (Yarrow-Schlick-Tweedy design to reduce vibrations) required an engine room of approximately 13,0 – 13,5 meters in length. :)
                      54. +1
                        25 May 2026 03: 52
                        The number of sections depended on the width of the boiler compartment in which the boiler was installed, not its length. The boilers were arranged transversely in the vast majority of cases. As a reminder, the "Garibaldians" had wider bodies than the "Bayans."

                        In the RIF, Belleville boilers were mostly installed longitudinally. The hull is about a meter wider, and even a six-element boiler won't fit into that extra meter.
                      55. 0
                        26 May 2026 00: 53
                        Yes, I've mixed up the accepted terminology. "Longitudinal" means with the "backs" facing the centerline and the fireboxes facing the sides. And this: "The most advantageous arrangement, both in terms of boiler room ventilation and ease of boiler maintenance in all respects."

                        But to better utilize the boiler room's width, the boilers had to be installed transversely, with the fireboxes facing the transverse bulkheads. And then, there was free rein to play with the number of elements in the Belleville boilers, increasing their width without increasing the boiler room's length.

                        But that, as they say, "isn't our method." "Our method" is to place it lengthwise, and as much as possible.
                      56. +1
                        25 May 2026 03: 54
                        Our MTK should have rejected the "Tsarevich" project due to the insufficiency of the total area of ​​the grate and the total heating surface of the boiler unit for the declared design capacity of the machines, according to our accepted standards.

                        MTK lived in the past, did not take into account the development of Belleville boilers, and the French already had the 1898 model at that time, with increased steam pressure.
                      57. +2
                        25 May 2026 04: 12
                        Will 16 Norman boilers be included in the boiler rooms of the Garibaldian redesigned for the Russian Industrial Association (RIF) to support the operation of a crane manipulator with a design capacity of 17500 indicated horsepower?

                        Yes, they will fit. For 17500 horsepower, you'll need 14 Bogatyr boilers (they were of two different sizes, but for simplicity, let's assume all the boilers are small). The Bayan engines are 17,1 meters long, the Bogatyr boilers are about 33 meters long, and there's a meter of reserve for increasing the size of a couple of boilers (the Bogatyr had four large ones).
                      58. +1
                        26 May 2026 01: 05
                        I studied with interest how the British squeezed 48 Belleville boilers into approximately the same overall length of boiler rooms on the Powerful and Terrible, while on the Rossiya they squeezed only 32 boilers into them.
                      59. +3
                        26 May 2026 03: 56
                        I studied with interest how the British crammed 48 boilers into the Powerful and Terrible

                        Only there is less coal opposite the two aft coal pits, i.e. it would have had to be hauled from the spare coal pits before.
                      60. +1
                        26 May 2026 21: 34
                        I believe that during ocean voyages, these cruisers simply took turns using the boiler rooms in the coal pits where the coal was least available. This meant they had to carry less coal.

                        These gigantic armored ships are certainly merciless in their futility. But as a technical "gadget," with their 48 Belleville boilers, steam engines producing over 25 horsepower, and a full coal reserve of 3 tons, they are impressive.
                      61. 0
                        27 May 2026 04: 24
                        During ocean voyages on these cruisers, they simply took turns using the boiler rooms in the coal pits where there was less coal left.

                        Possibly. But during combat missions, it's better to have approximately equal coal reserves in the coal pits opposite the fire control point.
                      62. 0
                        27 May 2026 19: 25
                        In anticipation of battle, steam would have been kept running in all boilers. However, as far as I remember, these cruisers never took part in a single naval battle.

                        Some sources claim that during the repair and modernization in 1902-1904, oil heating of boilers was installed on the cruisers.

                        They probably lie.
                      63. 0
                        28 May 2026 03: 06
                        In anticipation of the battle, steam would be kept in all boilers.

                        That's the point, that later, during the battle and at full speed, the coal opposite the pair of stern coal tanks will run out earlier than opposite the pair of bow coal tanks, and it will have to be mercilessly hauled from the spare coal pits during the battle.
                      64. 0
                        28 May 2026 10: 12
                        I don't think the design was so bad that without using coal from the smaller coal pits in the aft boiler rooms while cruising at the 14 knot economic speed declared for these cruisers, with steam being generated in the aft boiler rooms while awaiting combat, and at 20+ knots in combat, the coal saved in the aft boiler rooms at cruising speed would have been exhausted in a matter of hours.

                        Cruisers of this design were criticized for other shortcomings, and not for the fact that they would be forced to slow down in battle after the coal in the coal pits of the aft boiler rooms quickly ran out and it would have to be hauled from the coal pits covering the engine rooms.

                        "Terrible" - 22,4 knots at 25,572 hp. The speed under natural draft was 20,6 knots during 30-hour test with a power of 18430 ind.hp."
                      65. +1
                        28 May 2026 15: 02
                        The coal saved in the stern boilers during cruising would run out in a matter of hours.

                        It depends on the moment when you need to give combat speed - it's one thing when the coal pits are full to capacity, and another when the coal in them is running low - and then, unexpectedly, the enemy is waiting at the bunkering port.
                      66. +1
                        18 May 2026 11: 19
                        Quote: anzar
                        ?? Coal reserve normal/full
                        Bayan 750/1020t Nissin 650/1180t (more or less))

                        Dear anzar, when comparing ships, the design weight distribution is considered. Based on the experience of the 2nd TOE, we see that a ship can be loaded with a lot of coal, but the water supply for the boilers must be taken into account. Otherwise, you could have a lot of coal but little water, and you'll have to move at a slow speed.
                      67. +1
                        18 May 2026 11: 57
                        You can have a lot of coal, but little water and have to move at a low speed.

                        Why? A ship isn't a steam locomotive; it doesn't emit exhaust steam into the atmosphere. If the system is working properly, it doesn't require much water. I know that the Russian navy often suffers large losses, and sometimes even pumps in seawater.
                      68. 0
                        18 May 2026 13: 52
                        Quote: anzar
                        A ship is not a steam locomotive; it doesn't emit exhaust steam into the atmosphere. If the system is working properly, it doesn't require much water.

                        Steam losses can occur due to various reasons, all described by E. Bertin.
                      69. +1
                        18 May 2026 16: 07
                        The cruiser Bayan's 26 Belleville boilers held no more than 35 tons of boiler water. The feedwater supply in the double-bottom space of the tanks under stokeholds Nos. 6, 7, and 8 could have reached 165 tons. This amounts to 200 tons of water.

                        The Nishin and Kassuga boilers are fire-tube cylindrical boilers. The fire-tube boilers themselves contain 176 tons of boiler water. The boiler water reserve in the double-bottom space under the engine room is 60 tons, totaling 236 tons of water.
                      70. +1
                        18 May 2026 17: 47
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        The Nishin and Kassuga boilers are fire-tube cylindrical boilers. The fire-tube boilers themselves contain 176 tons of boiler water. The boiler water reserve in the double-bottom space under the engine room is 60 tons, totaling 236 tons of water.

                        Alexander, I was writing about water reserves, not the total amount. For fire-tube cylindrical boilers, that was important.
                      71. 0
                        18 May 2026 23: 25
                        The Garibaldi class for the Russian Navy would have been built with Belleville boilers, not the fire-tube boilers ordered by Argentina. In fact, the second-series Garibaldi class ships were built with various types of water-tube boilers, including 24 Belleville boilers. Except for the last two, purchased by Japan in 1903, for Argentina.

                        This means that the supply of feedwater in the double-bottom space for our hypothetical "Garibaldian" based on the "Kasuga" project is 236 - 35 ~ 200 tons.

                        It would likely have been reduced by 35 tons to compensate for the difference in crane manipulator weight. After all, the Ansaldo design, with its fire-tube boilers, had a total main machinery load of 1298 tons, while the improved Bayan design had a total load of 1396 tons. Reducing the amount of feedwater in the double-bottom space by 35 tons, to 165 tons, would have partially compensated for the 98-ton heavier Bayan crane manipulator.
                      72. 0
                        19 May 2026 08: 10
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        KMU "Nishin" and "Kassuga" - fire-tube cylindrical boilers

                        Is there any information on "Poireydon"? I think he was also with the Bellevilles...
                      73. +2
                        19 May 2026 16: 25
                        "Puareydon" had a crane manipulator with a design capacity of 13 thousand indicator forces and 16 Belleville boilers.

                        "Varese." A crane manipulator with a design capacity of 13,5 indicated horsepower and 24 Belleville boilers.

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_cruiser_Varese#cite_ref-2

                        During her sea trials on 27 November 1900, Varese barely exceeded her designed speed, reaching 20.02 knots from 14,200 ihp (10,600 kW).

                        Unfortunately, the displacement was not indicated during sea trials.
                      74. +2
                        19 May 2026 18: 29
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        "Puareydon" was a crane manipulator with a design capacity of 13 thousand indicator forces and 16 Belleville boilers.

                        Thank you hi
                      75. 0
                        22 May 2026 19: 00
                        The standard boiler water reserve was calculated at 1 ton of water per 100 indicated horsepower of the crane. But most interestingly, this was taken during overload.
                      76. 0
                        18 May 2026 14: 35
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        Dear Alexander, unfortunately, it wouldn't have worked. It's possible to install the Bayan crane, but you're forgetting about the coal reserves and water for the boilers.

                        Dear Igor, Rafael Mikhailovich Melnikov once wrote the following:

                        https://litlife.club/books/214312/read?page=4

                        "...from the MTC report of November 10, 1904, when the manager of the Naval Ministry ordered "immediately" to begin construction of two cruisers of the improved Bayan type at the new shipbuilding facility of the St. Petersburg port. The MTC's instructions on the necessary improvements had already been prepared (RGA VMF, f. 421, op. 1, d. 1649, pp. 1–8). A comparison was made of the Bayan with the Ansaldo company's cruisers Nissin and Kassuga, as well as a project for a cruiser of the Bayan type (displacement of 8100 tons, speed 21 knots), proposed by the Burmeister & Wein company. The characteristics table showed the undeniable advantage of the Ansaldo project, but for some reason the choice was made in favor of the Bayan.The Italian design's shortcomings included the suspiciously lightweight gun mounts, the supposedly shortened (40 caliber) 8-inch and 6-inch guns, and the fact that they were only fed manually. A stumbling block was the new design's displacement limitation, which was not to exceed that of the Bayan. This was some kind of artificial device, intended to discard the Ansaldo design.

                        Regardless of the far-fetched objections to the Ansaldo project, the feed to the Nissin and Kasuga was electrified, and the supposedly "clad" 8"/45 EOC Pattern S had heavier barrels and a maximum muzzle energy of 36,2 MJ, comparable to the maximum muzzle energy of the domestic 8"/45 Brink.

                        The British QF 6"/40 EOC had heavier barrels than the domestic 6"/45 Canet and were only slightly inferior to the domestic six-inch guns in terms of maximum muzzle energy. Furthermore, none of this mattered, since if the cruisers had been built for the RIF, they would have been equipped with domestic guns.

                        Dear Igor, please explain: are you trying to defend the MTK officials who, in 1897, completely failed to notice the existence of the "Garibaldians" when reviewing prototypes for the future "Bayan," but in 1904, they did notice but rejected the Ansaldo company's project under trumped-up pretexts? Why? Out of patriotism? From the perspective of a patriot of the Fatherland, cannot officials in positions of responsibility in Russia be fools or act contrary to the interests of the Fatherland due to a conflict of interest? In other countries, they can, but in ours, they cannot?

                        PS Regarding the repetition of “Bayan”, Governor V.A. Alekseev wrote: “Not a single new thought and nothing that would indicate the application of data obtained through hard combat experience.” This is how he saw our wise collective MTC.
                      77. 0
                        18 May 2026 14: 46
                        Pardon me, V.A. Alekseyev was a colonel in the naval artillery corps. From 1898 to 1900, he was a member of the commission that oversaw the construction of the battleship Retvizan and the cruiser Varyag in Philadelphia.
                      78. +2
                        18 May 2026 15: 34
                        V.A. Alekseyev was dishonorably discharged for theft. He later wrote extensively for Novoye Vremya under the pseudonym Brutus. Consequently, he heaped much dirt on our navy.
                      79. 0
                        18 May 2026 17: 27
                        And how many weren't fired for theft? Does V.A. Alekseev's theft, which you know about, inform you of his unprofessionalism?

                        “But wait, how did he serve in the cleaning?”
                        “I didn’t appoint him there.”
                        (C) wink

                        As R.M. Melnikov knew, A.N. Krylov wrote about V.A. Alekseev: “A very knowledgeable person in his field.”

                        https://litlife.club/books/214312/read?page=4

                        "Regarding the three cruisers ordered by type

                        Regarding "Bayan," V.A. Alekseyev wrote: "Not a single new idea and nothing that would indicate the application of data obtained through difficult combat experience." True, the ministry explained that the order was made "based on combat experience," but for some reason failed to take into account that the "Bayan" was the most active in that war "not because it represented a good combat ship type, but solely and unconditionally due to the daring of its commanders" (in reality, the "Bayan" distinguished itself under one commander, R.N. Virena-R.M.). The type of this vessel itself, in the opinion of these same commanders, resembled V.A. Alekseyev—definitely not worthy of imitation or repetition ("Letter," p. 23).

                        Later, to calm public opinion, the ministry submitted to the State Duma an extensive study (consisting of 61 points and 110 quotations from Brutus's articles) entitled "Factual Inaccuracies in Brutus's Articles" ("For the Judgment of Society," pp. 5, 10). It allegedly stated that the order for three Bayan-class cruisers was not based on combat experience at all, but solely because in the autumn of 1904, there were available slipways and available credits for the estimate. However, plans for battleships, as well as cruisers "of the latest types, were not ready," and their production would require a considerable amount of time. In the face of such naive self-exposure by the ministry, V.A. Alekseyev humbly remarked: "If the ministry itself considers such an explanation for its shipbuilding errors more noble or generally more convenient for itself than what I attributed to it, then I have nothing against it.

                        As for the merits of cruisers like the Bayan, comparing them with the Japanese Tsukuba-class cruisers built at the same time is simply shameful – the three named Russian cruisers would not even dare to engage in battle with one Tsukuba (For the Judgment of Society, pp. 113–114).


                        Perhaps we shouldn't go into detail about how much V.A. Alekseev stole, but you could write a reasoned explanation of why, in your opinion, he was wrong?

                        And in your opinion, R.M. Melnikov was wrong in his book “Armored cruisers of the Admiral Makarov type” when he wrote:

                        The project was adopted "for guidance in the construction of Bayan-class cruisers—one at the aforementioned plant, the other two at a new shipbuilding facility in the St. Petersburg port." The journal was individually signed by highly respected scholars in Russian history: Nikolai Titov, Apollon Krotkov, Nikolai Nozikov, Vasily Afanasyev (who previously spelled his last name with an "o"), and Anatoly Kovalsky.

                        Together, as has been the case all these years, hiding behind the shields of collegial irresponsibility, all these respected specialists with a light heart committed a grave sin (if not a crime) - the adoption of a harmful design decision."


                        In that he accused the deceased respected people of habitual collegial irresponsibility and the commission of a grave sin, and perhaps even a crime?

                        About the dead either good or nothing?

                        But this continued to happen in our country, both in Soviet times and even today. The recent "malicious decision" regarding the "modular" Project 20386 alone cost many billions of rubles.

                        Enough of these "beautiful mistakes" (C), filled with blatant unprofessionalism. How much longer can we "beautiful mistakes" be made? Another 150 years?
                      80. 0
                        18 May 2026 15: 44
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        Dear Alexander, unfortunately, it wouldn't have worked. It's possible to install the Bayan crane, but you're forgetting about the coal reserves and water for the boilers.

                        1904. Comparative table of cruiser characteristics. RGA VMF, f. 421, op. 1, d. 1649, p. 1–8).

                        Project "Ansaldo". Normal displacement 7750 tons. Crane manoeuvring unit with a design capacity of 13500 horsepower (15200 with forcing up to 10%). Weight of main machinery with water 1298 tons. Speed ​​20,4 knots (with forcing). Normal / full coal capacity 600 / 1180 tons.

                        Improved "Bayan" design by Forges et Chantiers. Normal displacement 7802 tons. Design crane capacity 16500 horsepower. Main machinery weight with water 1396 tons. Speed ​​21 knots. Normal/full coal capacity 750/1130 tons.

                        Designed by Burmeister & Vine. Normal displacement is 8100 tons. Design crane capacity is 16500 horsepower. The weight of the main machinery with water is 1390 tons. Full speed is 21 knots (with forced propulsion). Normal/full coal capacity is 750/1120 tons.

                        Of course, we chose the "Forges et Chantiers" project.

                        https://litlife.club/books/214312/read?page=4

                        "On December 7, 1904, the MTC sent data to the Chief Naval Engineer of the St. Petersburg port “for the design of an improved Bayan-type cruiser” (RGA VMF, f. 421, on. 1, d. 1650, p. 1).

                        It turns out that on that same day, December 7/20, 1904, repeating in almost every detail the intrigue surrounding the unexpected appearance of the Forge and Chantier battleship design (the future "Tsesarevich") in St. Petersburg on May 26, 1898, the Ministry also received a proposal from the same firm, drafted in St. Petersburg. Attached was a detailed (eight-page typewritten) specification for the updated cruiser "Bayan," resplendent with innovative, cutting-edge ideas. Among the proposed innovations, one notable one was the enhancement of the small-caliber artillery by adding four 57mm guns to the eight 47mm guns!

                        [...]

                        The project was adopted "for guidance in the construction of Bayan-class cruisers—one at the aforementioned plant, and the other two at a new shipbuilding facility in the St. Petersburg port." The journal was individually signed by highly respected scholars in Russian history: Nikolai Titov, Apollon Krotkov, Nikolai Nozikov, Vasily Afanasyev (who previously spelled his last name with an "o"), and Anatoly Kovalsky.

                        Together, as had been the case all these years, hiding behind the shields of collegial irresponsibility, all these respected specialists with a light heart committed a grave sin (if not a crime) - the adoption of a harmful design decision."

                        Frankly, I don't know if you'll argue with the late Rafail Mikhailovich Melnikov on the issue that the decision to repeat "Bayan" was "harmful." It's quite fashionable these days to revise the views of Soviet historians.

                        I just ask you not to forget that, in addition to being a naval historian, Rafael Mikhailovich Melnikov was also a shipbuilding engineer by education, a design engineer at TsKB-19, and then, for 30 years (from 1965 to 1995), an employee of the A. N. Krylov Central Research Institute.

                        That is, his opinion about the undeniable advantages of the Ansaldo project and the “harmful” “grave sin (if not crime)” of building “improved Bayans” according to the design of the Forge and Chantier company should be considered significant, first of all, from an engineering point of view.
                      81. +3
                        18 May 2026 16: 43
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Frankly, I don't know if you'll argue with the late Rafail Mikhailovich Melnikov on the issue that the decision to repeat "Bayan" was "harmful." It's quite fashionable these days to revise the views of Soviet historians.

                        I won't dispute Rafail Mikhailovich Melnikov's opinion for one simple reason. He very tactfully avoided the question of who financed these cruisers and what the relationship was like at the time between our creditor and Italy. It's very simple.
                        Therefore, all the accusations against MTK are somewhat far-fetched.
                        Foreign policy and financial dependence played a role in the choice of the project.
                      82. 0
                        18 May 2026 18: 04
                        Let's start with the fact that it was possible not to build the first "Bayan" with the technical face with which it was designed and built.

                        Ah, France – the Russian Empire's main creditor. Couldn't Lagan's engineers have handled it if they'd been given the task: "We want one just like Eduardo Masdea's, only better?"

                        And even if they had NOT succeeded, couldn’t they have simply bought the Italian design and built it at the Toulon shipyard?

                        Cruisers of the 1898 program were built in so many places and according to so many designs. In the subsequent Russo-Japanese War, all of them proved practically useless.

                        "If, instead of six different types of armored deck "6000-tonners," Russia had ordered a series of 3-4 armored cruisers of the "Bayan" type, the usefulness of the program for the outcome of the war would have been fundamentally greater."

                        Alas, even the Bayan was a very, very mediocre ship. The only European armored cruiser "in the squadron" project of 1897, even one already in large-scale construction, that could engage on equal terms with the British-built Japanese armored cruisers, and with 10" guns outshine those armored cruisers, was completely overlooked by the MTK until the Russo-Japanese War.

                        And already during the war (although the project was already morally outdated by that time, it was the only more or less decent one available “right now”) he rejected it under a far-fetched pretext.

                        The only thing that remains unclear today is who is prepared to justify all these prominent figures from the MTC, who technically did literally everything necessary to ensure that the Russian Imperial Navy lost to the Mikado's fleet without winning a single artillery battle? Admirers of the Romanovs: "The Russia we lost"?

                        "They have forgotten nothing and learned nothing." This famous historical expression, most often attributed to the diplomat Charles Maurice de Talleyrand, was coined during the Bourbon Restoration in France and described the inability and unwillingness of the ruling elites to change, to learn the lessons of the past, and to abandon their past mistakes.

                        The point of studying history is to learn something from past mistakes.

                        And if mistakes are simply not acknowledged... well, then: "History teaches only that it has never taught nations anything."

                        And historians who hide, disguise, and justify historical errors... are simply engaged in harmful activities.
                      83. +2
                        18 May 2026 19: 35
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Let's start with the fact that it was possible not to build the first "Bayan" with the technical face with which it was designed and built.

                        The Bayan was built as an armored reconnaissance vessel, with decent protection against high-explosive shells fired by medium-caliber artillery from armored cruisers. Its speed is quite acceptable for a reconnaissance vessel, and it can evade battleships.
                        Ah, France – the Russian Empire's main creditor. Couldn't Lagan's engineers have handled it if they'd been given the task: "We want one just like Eduardo Masdea's, only better?"

                        Why? They wanted an armored reconnaissance ship, not an armored cruiser for artillery support in battle. That's what the Garibaldi-class armored cruisers were designed for. Plus, there are the Peresvet-class ships, and five battleships have been laid down.
                        And even if they had NOT succeeded, couldn’t they have simply bought the Italian design and built it at the Toulon shipyard?

                        I don't think the Italians would have sold the project; it costs money, of course, but building a ship brings in more profit. And the French wouldn't have agreed to such a move either. Besides, they had their own projects at the time.
                        Cruisers of the 1898 program were built in so many places and according to so many designs. In the subsequent Russo-Japanese War, all of them proved practically useless.

                        These are not the ships' problems, but those of those who commanded them in battle. Also, those who failed to organize high-quality training of sailors and officers for war.
                        Alas, even the Bayan was a very, very mediocre ship. The only European armored cruiser "in the squadron" project of 1897, even one already in large-scale construction, that could engage on equal terms with the British-built Japanese armored cruisers, and with 10" guns outshine those armored cruisers, was completely overlooked by the MTK until the Russo-Japanese War.

                        The battleship was considered the primary striking force during that period. Five new battleships were laid down.
                        Could you please clarify what you mean by "project of a European armored cruiser "with the squadron"?
                        Today, the only thing that remains unclear is who is prepared to justify all these representative figures from the MTC who technically did literally everything necessary to ensure that the Russian Imperial Navy lost to the Mikado's fleet without winning a single artillery battle?

                        Wars are lost by the military, not by the ITC.
                        Fans of Romanov Russia: "Which We Lost"?

                        I share the views of Marxism-Leninism, so this question is not addressed to me.
                      84. 0
                        19 May 2026 01: 03
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        The Bayan was built as an armored reconnaissance vessel, with decent protection against high-explosive shells fired by medium-caliber artillery from armored cruisers. Its speed is quite acceptable for a reconnaissance vessel, and it can evade battleships.

                        And what about the armored cruiser? Will it? The ITC knew that Japan had begun purchasing Elswick-designed armored cruisers. How do you think the ITC specialists viewed the Bayan's departure from the Asama, laid down in 1896? Or did the ITC, while searching for a prototype for the Bayan in 1897, forget about both the Garibaldi as a possible prototype and the Asama as a potential adversary?
                        Why? They wanted an armored reconnaissance aircraft, not an armored cruiser for artillery support in battle.

                        In 1896, the Mikado's navy requested four Asam-class cruisers. Later, it was decided to commission two more similar armored cruisers for construction in France and Germany, as Britain lacked the necessary slipways to meet Japan's needs.
                        I don't think the Italians would sell the project; it costs money, of course, but building a ship brings in more profit.

                        The Italians also had no spare slipways. They actually began building the Garibaldis for themselves, but began buying them during the construction phase: Argentina received four, Spain one. The Italian Navy only received the first cruiser of this series in 1901, although it should have received it as early as 1896. The first five were purchased by foreign buyers.

                        And you still think that without free slipways the Italians would not have sold the project?
                        And the French would not have agreed to such a “move”.

                        The French agreed to build the Azuma to Japanese specifications. The results were frankly so-so. The French couldn't design or build as well as the British, Italians, or even the Germans. But they met the Japanese customer's specifications: 6" fewer guns than on British-built cruisers, and a 178mm main armor belt over twenty meters shorter than on the Asamoids. But how did they manage to comply? The quality of construction turned out to be inferior to that of the British and Germans. The Azuma's crane control system was the least reliable.
                        These are not the ships' problems, but those who commanded in battle.

                        This problem also affected the ship designs, which, despite their considerable construction costs, even according to their specifications were only suitable for combat against Japanese armored deck "dogs." Large armored deck cruisers completely discredited themselves as a class during the war:

                        https://military.wikireading.ru/17770

                        "England was the first to implement new trends in cruiser construction after the Russo-Japanese War. Construction of so-called protected cruisers of the 2nd and 3rd classes, reminiscent of Russian armored cruisers, ceased."
                        The main striking force at that time was considered to be the battleship.

                        And the Mikado fleet, drawing on its experience in the Sino-Japanese War of 1894-1995, decided to also acquire armored strike cruisers. They were right.
                        Could you please clarify what you mean by "project of a European armored cruiser "with the squadron"?

                        https://litlife.club/books/191545/read

                        "The design of the "second-class combat vessel" (this class included all combat units with a displacement of 6,000 to 9,000 tons) of the Garibaldi type clearly traces both lines of its predecessors, both on the side of battleships and on the side of cruisers. The armored cruisers Carlo Alberto and Vettor Pisani, laid down in 1892 according to the design of Lieutenant General Eduardo Masdea, were well protected and quite fast (20 knots) for their time, and turned out to be very successful. So successful that they ... were criticized - for too weak armament, consisting of only 1 20-mm and 152-mm quick-firing guns. Naval specialists, however, demanded the installation of large-caliber guns. The chief designer of the fleet, Benedetto Brin, recognized the validity of such criticism and presented it to the Minister of the Navy, Admiral Racchia, and then to his successor, Admiral Morin, a report on the possibility of creating an armored cruiser of limited displacement with more powerful armament and better protection compared to the Pisani.

                        The ideas underlying the creation of a new type of cruiser were formulated as follows:

                        1. It is possible to create a combat unit capable of performing the tasks of an armored cruiser and a squadron battleship, which could operate as part of a squadron;

                        2. Strategically, such a ship could be used for solo operations;

                        3. It must carry powerful armament to combat cruiser formations, including armored cruisers;

                        4. The ship must have the ability to evade combat with superior combat units, which is ensured by a speed exceeding the speed of all squadron battleships."

                        Wars are lost by the military, not by the ITC.

                        Wars at sea are first lost at the drafting boards and on the slipways, and then it comes to defeats in naval battles and engagements.
                        I share the views of Marxism-Leninism, so this question is not addressed to me.

                        So you share the views of Soviet historians on the activities of the MTC in the years leading up to the Russo-Japanese War?

                        https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/rossiyskie-memuaristy-i-istoriki-o-materialnyh-faktorah-tsusimskogo-srazheniya?ysclid=mpbqufdj6v407859562

                        "It should be emphasized that the Retvizan was built much faster and cheaper than any battleship ever built in Russia. The ship spent only 15 months on the slipway. Completion on the water took 17 months [14, p. 324].

                        However, the navy's senior leadership unexpectedly abandoned the already completed American design and handed over the order for the construction of the basic prototype to the French firm Forge & Chantier. R. M. Melnikov considers this decision one of the most fatal mistakes made by the Russian Navy on the eve of the war. The French design for the basic prototype, with its ornate hull curves, superstructure architecture, and medium-caliber turret artillery, was significantly more complex to manufacture than the American one and far more costly to build in terms of time and money. Melnikov writes that he was unable to find an answer to the question of the reasons for this unexpected and controversial decision in archival documents. Nevertheless, he maintains that the rejection of the American design and the transfer of the order to the French were the result of interdepartmental antagonisms and the personal ambitions of the highest-ranking officials, primarily General Admiral Grand Duke Alexei Alexandrovich. A significant share of the blame also lay with the naval high command. "One cannot help but be amazed at the meekness with which the assembly of venerable admirals bowed to the will of the Grand Duke... And if any of the admirals had mustered up any civic courage or had the MTC conducted even a basic comparison of the merits of turret and casemate artillery, the matter might have turned out differently. Then it would have become clear that, in addition to being unjustifiably complex and prohibitively expensive, 152-mm gun turrets were inferior in rate of fire to casemate mounts, more difficult to maintain, and inconvenient for modernization. Only with the passage of time did the toxic effect of the gases escaping from the barrels during loading become apparent; they stupefied the men and forced the regular gunners and crew to alternate at the guns after every shot" [8, pp. 18-19]. The price of the issue lay not in the individual technical advantages of the American design, but in the construction time of the Pacific battleships.

                        The rejection of an already completed prototype and the transition to a significantly more technically complex project, which was also only in the development stage, significantly delayed the commissioning of the new battleships. "It is painful to even imagine," writes R.M. Melnikov, "how different the pre-war circumstances would have been if Russia had preferred its own type, already embodied on the basis of the Potemkin and Peresvet in the Retvizan project and the Baltic Shipyard variants. It is possible that the shorter construction time for these ships would have allowed them to be concentrated in the Far East, and the war could have been prevented altogether" [8, p. 19].
                      85. +1
                        18 May 2026 15: 25
                        The Asamoids weren't like Bayan; they couldn't even catch up with the old man Rurik.

                        In your reality, the fight at Ulsan did not take place.
                      86. +2
                        18 May 2026 15: 40
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        the fight near Ulsan did not take place

                        The battle occurred due to a malfunction in the Rossiya's boilers. Otherwise, the VOK would have been able to accelerate further, and perhaps even escape.
                      87. 0
                        18 May 2026 15: 45
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        the fight near Ulsan did not take place

                        The battle occurred due to a malfunction in the Rossiya's boilers. Otherwise, the VOK would have been able to accelerate further, and perhaps even escape.

                        Did the malfunction last the entire battle? Or just at the beginning?
                      88. +2
                        18 May 2026 16: 02
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Did the malfunction last the entire battle?

                        The entire battle. Because of this, the Rurik turned out to be faster than the Rossiya.
                        Read Nesolyonoy.
                      89. 0
                        19 May 2026 08: 19
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Did the malfunction last the entire battle?

                        The entire battle. Because of this, the Rurik turned out to be faster than the Rossiya.
                        Read Nesolyonoy.

                        Jessen doesn't write anything about problems with boilers in Russia, and even says this:
                        "At 5:38 a.m., the Gromoboy transmitted over the semaphore: 'The commander is wounded.'"
                        At this time, the detachment’s speed was already equal to 17 knots, and since the Rurik was catching up, they increased the speed to 17 knots.”
                      90. +1
                        19 May 2026 08: 58
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Jessen doesn't write anything about boiler problems in Russia.

                        Of course, why would Jessen write complaints against himself?
                        But Skrydlov writes: “What an oversight!”
                      91. 0
                        19 May 2026 14: 32
                        Of course, why would Jessen write complaints against himself?

                        The ship's commander is responsible for the condition of the boilers; he could have been the one to unleash the dogs on.
                        I couldn't find Arnautov's report and the Russian Foreign Ministry's residence permit (only the storage location in the archive) online.
                        And where, in Nesolenov’s work, is it about the boilers of Russia?
                      92. 0
                        19 May 2026 14: 45
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        The ship's commander is responsible for the condition of the boilers.

                        And Iessen is responsible for the squad's readiness for battle.

                        Quote: Jura 27
                        And where, in Nesolenov’s work, is it about the boilers of Russia?

                        https://www.labirint.ru/books/859271/
                        in this book. I have it on paper.
                      93. +2
                        18 May 2026 15: 59
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        In your reality, the fight at Ulsan did not take place.

                        It happened. But in the Battle of Ulsan, the Japs cut off our ships from Vladik, so they had to break through. So no one caught up with anyone.
                      94. 0
                        19 May 2026 07: 29
                        They cut off our ships from Vladik, so they had to break through.

                        Were you just trying to break through the entire battle? Have you looked at the battle plan lately?
                      95. +2
                        19 May 2026 07: 51
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Were you just trying to break through the entire battle?

                        No, for most of the battle they tried to cover the damaged Rurik.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Have you looked at the battle plan lately?

                        Yura, let's just reread the history of that battle :)))) To remember that at the beginning of it our ships couldn't give more than 17,5 knots due to Russia's problems with the boilers, and for a significant part of the time they went even less, since they tried to give 17,5 knots only after 5.40, etc., etc. And Rurik was hit at the beginning of the 7th
                      96. 0
                        19 May 2026 07: 56
                        It would be better if you just reread the story of that battle.

                        Only after you, because I remember very well that there were no breakthroughs, and the Japanese always caught up with the Russians, despite their unsuccessful maneuvering.
                      97. +2
                        19 May 2026 08: 04
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Only after you, because I remember very well that there were no breakthroughs,

                        Now you will refute the obvious... (and from the very same diagram that you referred to earlier) Good luck!
                      98. 0
                        19 May 2026 08: 21
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Only after you, because I remember very well that there were no breakthroughs,

                        Now you will refute the obvious... (and from the very same diagram that you referred to earlier) Good luck!

                        I can't refute the breakthrough(s) because they didn't happen. I need to show you when the breakthrough(s) happened.
                      99. +4
                        17 May 2026 23: 37
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        And we're going to start a religious war over a speed difference of less than a knot during testing?

                        To compare speed during tests, they must be carried out under the same conditions)))

                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        This is less than that of Asama.

                        How fast did the Asama actually reach? About 18 knots at most.
                        The same 18 knots were actually achieved by the Aurora, although during tests it showed much less than the Asama.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        and it would be fine to stick to this line

                        Alas, miracles don't happen! Only an armadillo will hold its line normally.
                      100. 0
                        18 May 2026 12: 49
                        Quote: rytik32
                        To compare speed during tests, they must be carried out under the same conditions)))

                        Absolutely. Calculations show that a hypothetical Kasuga with a Bayan crane manipulator, with a continuous power output of ~16500 horsepower, would achieve a speed of 21 knots during testing. Would this crane manipulator operate under the same conditions as the Bayan? Yes. The crane manipulator's power rating depends on the characteristics of the crane manipulator itself, not on the carrier on which it is installed.

                        Colleague anzar kindly provided a table indicating that the weight of the main mechanisms with water for the Kasuga-class cruiser's crane manoeuvring unit is 1298 tons, while the weight of the main mechanisms with water for the improved Bayan crane manoeuvring unit is 1396 tons.

                        https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2026-05/9ac5f8d2f3_0_garibaldi-03.webp

                        Do you want to start a religious war over the difference in weight of mechanisms with water less than 100 tons? wink
                        How fast did the Asama actually reach? About 18 knots at most.
                        The same 18 knots were actually achieved by the Aurora, although during tests it showed much less than the Asama.

                        As is known, the Pallada, having become the Tsugaru, after the deficiencies made by domestic designers were corrected, demonstrated a speed of 21,85 knots during tests.

                        But reality, reality, makes its own adjustments. Both the Asama and the Kasuga had crane manipulators with fire-tube boilers, which, "in the British style," achieved their stated maximum power ratings only with forced blast. Both the Asama and the Nishin lacked wooden bottom plating with copper sheets. Incidentally, we abandoned this, too, starting with the Pobeda. I don't know what antifouling paints the Japanese used during the Russo-Japanese War, if any. I'm also unaware of the quality of the coal with which the Asama actually reached a maximum speed of 18 knots.

                        But I know very well why our cruisers had to flee from the Asama. And you know, too. I hope in the next installments, the esteemed Andrey will tell us in detail how the wise MTK bought an armored "squadron scout" from France, which made it impossible to do anything but flee from the Asama, even though for several years now the Italians had been building armored cruisers for those who wanted them, at even slightly lower prices, that would have forced the Asama to flee. How did it happen that the MTK only got around to "thoroughly studying" the "Garibaldi" (in comparison with the improved Bayan and the Danish design from Burmeister & Wein) in 1904, when it was no longer relevant.
                        Alas, miracles don't happen! Only an armadillo will hold its line normally.

                        It depends on the shells. As experience in the Russo-Japanese War showed, any armored cruiser with a large area of ​​protection could hold its own against Japanese 12-inch shells. Against Russian 12-inch shells, an armored cruiser with 150 mm of Krupp cemented armor could successfully hold its own.

                        When proper 280-305 mm armor-piercing shells appeared a few years later, all armored cruisers became self-sinking, as did British battlecruisers with armor protection comparable to those of armored cruisers. But in 1897, this was still a long way off, and an armored "squadron scout" capable of joining battleships was quite feasible. Alas, the Bayan, with its incomplete, "dummy" armor belt, a mere 1,8 meters high, an average thickness of 150 mm for the thickest armor plates, a second belt, and only 60 mm of secondary artillery protection, along with a broadside of two 8" and four 6" guns, was only fit for combat against armored cruisers, and only to run away from cruisers capable of engaging battleships—and, most perplexingly, with the "bare ass" of its missing armor belt at the stern. The Bayan was designed as if specifically for a normal enemy armored cruiser, following the scenario of the now aging Rurik, to first cripple it as it turned away and attempted to escape, and then finish off the Laganev armored "squadron scout" ship, which had lost its high speed and/or controllability.
                      101. +4
                        17 May 2026 21: 10
                        Since MTK did not even consider the Garibaldi or San Martin as a prototype, then...

                        But in 1904 I was already considering ordering the following (here is the table)

                        ..taking the "Garibaldi"/"San Martin" as a prototype, thicken the main belt at the expense of the thinner upper belt...

                        Oh, I had such an alternative)) https://alternathistory.ru/korabli-stroyatsya-dlya-artura-rossijskij-flot-na-nuzhd-dalnego-vostok-dlya-melkovodya/#top_ankor
                        Only there, "Garibald Dintsy" were built INSTEAD of battleships and 1st rank cruisers, with 2 305/40 guns instead of 254 mm. The trick is
                        1) cheapness, greater numbers, versatility - otherwise there weren't enough cruisers, especially anti-Asamovids.
                        2) The shallow draft allows you to enter/exit Arthur at any time, and not only in "big water"
                        Of course, it's not really realistic for MTK to come up with something like that then))
                      102. +3
                        17 May 2026 21: 38
                        Quote: anzar
                        The shallow draft allows you to enter/exit Arthur at any time, and not only in "big water"

                        Colleague, my gut feeling tells me that during Arthur's tenure, our guys have increased the passage depth by three feet. (If I remember correctly, from 19 to 22 feet at the minimum.)
                        If they had only focused on that, and not deepened the Western Basin, which they weren't really using anyway, there wouldn't have been a problem. feel
                      103. +2
                        17 May 2026 23: 04
                        Hi colleague, 22ft. is exactly the figure I was aiming for, because the initial 20ft-6m is not enough even for cruisers)) But you know, for battleships - 8-8,5m (Peresvet). At low tide they sat on the ground (fortunately, the silt is soft)
                        If only they would focus on this and not deepen the Western Basin...then perhaps there would be no problem.

                        Unlikely; there's a rocky base beneath the silt. They brought explosives for... but...
                      104. 0
                        17 May 2026 23: 16
                        Quote: anzar
                        But in 1904 I was already considering ordering the following (here is the table)

                        By 1904, the Ansaldo design, already 11 years old, was outdated. In 1904, Japan was already designing the Tsukuba-class cruisers. Tsukuba was laid down on January 14, 1905, and Ikoma on March 15, 1905.

                        The table shows 20 75mm guns and the calculation of how many there will be in a salvo when operating at bow, stern course angles and along the beam, looking so touching.
                        Of course, it's not really realistic for MTK to come up with something like that then))

                        Alas. For the then MTC, this was completely unrealistic. Over the course of several years, a cohort of people formed within the MTC, through some trivial lack of foresight, who directed the Russian Imperial Fleet toward its eventual sinking in Port Arthur harbor and catastrophic defeat at Tsushima.

                        Almost 500 million rubles were spent on the construction of the ships alone:

                        https://alternathistory.ru/rossijskij-imperatorskij-flot-vremen-russko-yaponskoj-vojny-skolko-on-stoil/

                        "The Russian Imperial Fleet during the Russo-Japanese War – how much did it cost?"

                        And that's it, excuse the expression, we fucked it up.
                      105. +2
                        18 May 2026 11: 32
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        And that's it, excuse the expression, we fucked it up.

                        So what if the half a million includes the Black Sea Fleet? And what, nothing from the Baltic Fleet survived the Russian Nuclear Forces?
                        As I understand it, you need the number to be rounder?:)))))
                      106. 0
                        18 May 2026 13: 48
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        does it matter that half a million includes the Black Sea Fleet?

                        Half a billion.

                        Regardless of the fact that by designing and commissioning ships "exclusively for the Black Sea Fleet," the Russian Empire seemed to have agreed in advance that the problem of the "sick man of Europe" would never be solved, if the cost of the units built for the Black Sea Fleet were discarded, the colossal sum of money wasted in vain, which led the Russian Fleet to the Tsushima catastrophe, would not be reduced radically.

                        Perhaps the Black Sea Fleet's presence, with its half-billion-dollar expenditures, somehow justified the 100-ruble savings on purchasing cheap 12" "high-explosive" shells instead of proper high-explosive shells? Or perhaps the Black Sea Fleet's presence justified the Army's melinite production since 1889, while the Navy, for all intents and purposes, had no use for it, considering that the Army's 5DM and 11DM fuses for its coastal guns and mortars (a completely insignificant issue for the Army) were better than the Navy's?

                        And is this "passion" for "project diversity" instead of building series that the Russian Navy has not overcome to this day?

                        And technical conservatism on the one hand, and at the same time a passion for “making improvements” is already on the slipway?

                        All of these "old traditions" have characterized the construction of the Russian Navy since at least the first half of the 19th century. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, half a billion gold rubles were spent on warships alone, losing to the Japanese, who fought on credit. Already in the 21st century, 4,7 trillion rubles of the 20 trillion-ruble SAP-2020 were spent on Navy construction, with the results being traditional:

                        https://cast.ru/products/articles/predvaritelnye-itogi-gpv-2020-v-chasti-voennogo-korablestroeniya.html

                        "With regard to combat ships of the main classes – surface and submarine – the general-purpose forces of the Navy remain armed with the previous (third) generation of naval equipment, which has not undergone any major modernization."

                        And it would be better for the Russian Navy not to fight. It manages, time after time, to "sleep through" the emergence of literally every "new means of war" at sea.

                        What can we say if today the most serious threat to the Black Sea Fleet is posed by kamikaze submarines, for which the NATO Navy began to prepare in one way or another immediately after the incident with the guided missile destroyer Cole on October 12, 2000, in the port of Aden.
                        As I understand it, you need the number to be rounder?:)))))

                        I don't need anything. It wasn't me who calculated the figure in 2013, but the respected "Carpenter."

                        "A man is easily confused by facts, but if he understands trends, he cannot be fooled." historian Andrey Fursov
                      107. +1
                        18 May 2026 15: 41
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        I don't need anything. It wasn't me who calculated the figure in 2013, but the respected "Carpenter"

                        Yeah. He set himself the task of calculating the cost of the fleet by ship. You guys are just wringing your hands and rolling your eyes at the sky.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        If we discard the cost of the units built for the Black Sea Fleet, the colossal amount of money wasted in vain, which led the Russian Imperial Fleet to the Tsushima catastrophe, will not decrease radically

                        Of course. Out of the 300 million allocated for battleships, we're suddenly left with about 216 million. And if we also remove the ships that didn't join the Russian Navy, didn't go there, and returned, that leaves a total of 170 million.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        "It's easy to confuse a person with facts, but if he understands trends, he can't be fooled." - historian Andrei Fursov

                        Yeah. So don't even try :))))
                      108. 0
                        18 May 2026 20: 34
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Yeah. He set himself the task of calculating the cost of the fleet by ship. You guys are just wringing your hands and rolling your eyes at the sky.

                        I'm not an aesthete like you, dear Andrey. I don't call mistakes "beautiful mistakes." I believe the mistakes of the past should be studied in order to learn at least something from our history. You, I get the impression, prefer to justify the mistakes of the past, even sometimes admire them.

                        It would never have occurred to me to include the phrase "Beautiful Mistake" in the title of the Peresvet series about the battleships. It did for you. You thus aestheticized the Russo-Japanese War. The aestheticization of war is a cultural phenomenon that doesn't feed the left hemisphere of the brain, only the right.

                        And now you accuse me of pathetic “wringing of hands” and raising “eyes to heaven.”

                        Of course, I'm dissatisfied when, instead of analyzing historical errors and explaining to the reader the wrong actions and choices made by individuals, let alone organizations, that could have changed the course of historical events as we know them, these errors are instead justified, even aestheticized. And possible correct choices, even technical ones, are declared either impossible or mistaken.

                        Why are you popularizing our history, dear Andrey? So that readers can be entertained, have fun, but still learn nothing? Are the mistakes too "ancient" to learn from? I don't think so. In the West today, they're even trying to learn from the "Thucydides Trap," examining the mistakes made as both sides slid toward the Peloponnesian War that began 2457 years ago. But you're trying to hide, justify, explain away, and obscure the mistakes we made as we slid toward the future Russo-Japanese War. In my opinion, that's a mistake.

                        In my opinion, you're manipulating the facts, concealing your tendencies from readers. In this series you've just begun, I believe you're already attempting to cover up "our shortcomings" committed during the search for a prototype for the future armored "squadron scout."

                        No? Did I get the impression that this was because I got into a "polemic frenzy" and began to influence the emotions of the readers of my humble comments (which, as we know, no one except you, who is forced to, reads) with hand-wringing and eye-rolling?

                        I don't think so. I believe I'm trying to appeal to logic, not emotion. I want to draw the attention of the well-versed commentators here to a reasonable technical alternative, which you chose to ignore in the first article of this series.

                        And you started "fighting" with me again. With giggles and hahas at the ready.

                        Okay, I've said everything I wanted to. Have a good evening.
                      109. +1
                        18 May 2026 15: 22
                        A modern source indicates almost the same MTSV

                        0,73 m is at full displacement, when almost the entire additional angle is loaded above the design waterline. This is where the drop in the maximum displacement comes from.
              2. +2
                14 May 2026 11: 28
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                The fact that they played against the Japanese was our fault, not theirs.

                I completely agree. You hit the nail on the head.
              3. 0
                21 May 2026 15: 19
                Of course, in the end, Rozhdestvensky was wrong. But his arguments were correct. Although I'm not a fan of his.
                But... They had to be bought on principle, so the Japanese wouldn't get them. Otherwise, they were saving all their money. And in the end, they screwed up the empire, but at least they had sound finances and gold reserves.
    2. 0
      13 May 2026 12: 45
      The Olympia is an armored cruiser, albeit with thickly sloped decks. Judging by the appearance of the real Bayan, it's clear that the MTC wanted an armored cruiser "for the squadron."

      Single-gun turrets, so favored by the French at the time, who installed them not only on cruisers but also on battleships, and to a much lesser extent by the British, were one of the cognitive deficits of global naval thought at the time. The Americans, around the same time, had their own particular cognitive deficit: they tried to "stick" intermediate-caliber turrets on the roofs of their main-caliber turrets.
      1. Alf
        +1
        13 May 2026 18: 00
        Quote: AlexanderA
        They tried to "sculpt" intermediate-caliber turrets on the roofs of the main-caliber turrets.

        Which American Admiral William Sims angrily called "a crime against the white man."
    3. 0
      13 May 2026 17: 49
      American ships at that time, except for battleships (of course, not all of them), were complete crap
  6. +4
    13 May 2026 08: 20
    Rubbing my hands with glee. A new series of articles from Andrey! I understand that the "Bayan" isn't the most powerful cruiser, but it's one of my favorites. Ever since my school days, back in the Soviet Union, when I borrowed Stepanov's "Port Arthur" from the library. It's so emotional... Thank you, Andrey. We look forward to more.
  7. +4
    13 May 2026 08: 47
    I think we should ask contemporaries about the Bayan. They considered such cruisers successful and necessary. In my opinion, it would have been better at 23 knots. But what is there? Moreover, they immediately began building more like them. If they had been built in time for the war, they would have been useful.
    But speed is such a thing... We need to know what it really was. And then our "Dianas" will become quite normal.
    1. +2
      13 May 2026 09: 34
      In my opinion, it would be 23 knots
      - At the expense of what? It will be a bit too much....
      1. +1
        13 May 2026 12: 20
        You always want more))).
        Try more modern boilers.
        I am not talking about fantasies, but about the realities of war.
      2. +2
        13 May 2026 16: 10
        Quote: faiver
        due to what?

        For example, lighter boilers. This allowed for increased power output while maintaining the same crane weight.
        But at that moment our people preferred reliability.
        1. +1
          13 May 2026 17: 17
          Any ship is a compromise...
        2. +1
          14 May 2026 10: 53
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          For example, lighter boilers. This allowed for increased power output while maintaining the same crane weight.

          It's dangerous. Our engine crews even managed to bring the Belleville boilers on the latest EBRs to a state that the factory mechanics described as
          amazing, partly spoiled, rusty and undesirable
          1. +2
            14 May 2026 11: 16
            Quote: Alexey RA
            It's dangerous. Our engine crews even managed to bring the Belleville boilers on the latest EBRs to a state of

            Not without it.
            But almost simultaneously with the "Bayan," ships with other boilers were being built. And not all of these attempts ended like the "Varyag."
    2. +1
      13 May 2026 10: 30
      You're wrong. The other three were built after the war. It would have been better to build a couple of "second" Ruriks.
      1. +1
        13 May 2026 12: 09
        Instead of "three accordions" + Rurik - 2, it would be better to build two "Pisa" ships. One in Italy, one in Russia. And there would be a brigade of identical high-speed cruisers.
        1. +1
          13 May 2026 12: 38
          I don't know any PIZ)). At that time, the brigade in the RIF consisted of four ships, I think.
          1. +4
            13 May 2026 12: 45
            Quote: pin_code
            I don't know any Piz)).

            In general, the idea of ​​building two cruisers instead of four is utterly absurd. We already have a shortage of cruisers.
            1. 0
              13 May 2026 12: 58
              I didn't understand what you were trying to say, author, but I suggested building two Ruriks instead of three Bayans. And the shortage of cruisers... Who's to blame for that? Certainly not you or me. I don't know how busy the Baltic shipyards were after the Russian Yamal-Nenets Autonomous Area War. But if the Sevastopols were laid down in 1909, and three Bayans were built before that... They could have built more.
              1. +3
                13 May 2026 13: 05
                Quote: pin_code
                I didn't understand what you wanted to say, author, but I suggested building 2 Ruriks instead of 3 accordions.

                I'm talking about Nicholas's idea to build 2 Pisas instead of 3 Bayans and Ruriks.
                1. +1
                  13 May 2026 14: 28
                  Then I agree)). I don't like this idea either.
            2. 0
              13 May 2026 17: 56
              2 Rurik-2, even 5 German BrKr are making, not to mention the Bayan-2 with their parade speed of 20 knots
              1. +1
                13 May 2026 18: 44
                Quote: vitaliy20091959
                2 Rurik-2, they even make 5 German BrKr

                But cruisers are needed for something slightly different—patrol and raiding operations; they're the workhorses of the fleet. At least we could use the "Bayans," but instead of them... Well, it'll blow up instead of the "Pallada 2," and instead of three cruisers, there will be not two, but zero.
                Quote: vitaliy20091959
                with their parade speed of 20 knots

                In terms of speed, they are similar to Rurik 2.
          2. 0
            13 May 2026 13: 00
            The brigades consisted of two or four ships - this depended on many parameters.
            1. +2
              13 May 2026 13: 06
              Quote: TermNachTER
              The brigades consisted of two or four ships.

              Name the Black Sea Fleet or Baltic Fleet brigade that consisted of 2 ships.
              1. 0
                13 May 2026 13: 29
                Sevastopol-type LC brigades.
                1. +3
                  13 May 2026 14: 03
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  Sevastopol-type LC brigades.

                  You guessed wrong. All four dreadnoughts were part of the 1st Brigade of the Baltic Fleet's Battleships.
                  1. +1
                    13 May 2026 14: 24
                    Well, then I was wrong. I haven't looked at the BF staffing schedule in a while.
                    1. +1
                      13 May 2026 14: 43
                      It's just that if you look at the MK reference book, it's written in such a way that it's unclear whether the four dreadnoughts were combined into two brigades, or whether all the Baltic Fleet battleships were combined into two brigades. In fact, all the battleships, the four pre-dreadnoughts, were in the 2nd Brigade.
                  2. +2
                    13 May 2026 14: 30
                    And 4 battleships in the 2nd. And this is a fact.
                    1. +2
                      13 May 2026 15: 22
                      Quote: pin_code
                      And this is a fact.

                      Truly :)
            2. 0
              13 May 2026 14: 29
              I don't remember any such things in RIF.
            3. 0
              13 May 2026 14: 32
              And the mine division consisted of 10 destroyers, if memory serves.
        2. 0
          13 May 2026 12: 44
          I looked... Rurik 2 is much more interesting in every way except speed. The Italians are only for the Gulf of Finland and the Black Sea. And their armament is weak.
          1. +1
            13 May 2026 13: 14
            And what's so weak about it? Replace the British 190mm with Russian 203mm, and it'll be the same as the Rurik. The "piz" has a perfectly adequate range for the Baltic—2500 miles, only 1000 less than the Rurik.
            1. 0
              13 May 2026 14: 33
              The Rurik2 actually has a 254mm GK. So, no, it's still a Pisa. The Rurik also has an 8,203mm caliber.
              1. Alf
                +3
                13 May 2026 18: 14
                Quote: pin_code
                The Rurik2 actually has a 254mm GK. So, no, it's still a Pisa. The Rurik also has an 8,203mm caliber.

                Rurik could have outdone any cruiser. If he'd caught up...
      2. +2
        13 May 2026 12: 21
        Both were already a dead weight. Nothing else would have been built at that point, and during the war, something else was needed.
        1. +2
          13 May 2026 12: 40
          We have what we have. But Rurik was preferable to Bayan in WW1.
        2. 0
          13 May 2026 12: 47
          Frankly, in '14, no one had any decent heavy cruisers. So the Rurik-2 is the only one comparable.
          1. 0
            13 May 2026 13: 15
            How is "Blucher" worse than "Rurik"?
            1. +1
              13 May 2026 16: 54
              Blyukher was better than Rurik, but it was built later. And back then, even a single year of warship construction made a lot of sense. Everyone started building battleships with a bunch of 12-inchers, and the British with 13,5-inchers, and heavy cruisers as well. The only stagnation was in light cruisers. Everyone needed big "clubs."
              1. +2
                13 May 2026 17: 11
                Quote: pin_code
                Blucher is better than Rurik

                Generally speaking, this is a highly debatable proposition. In an artillery battle, assuming the gunners are equally skilled, I'd bet on Rurik.
          2. 0
            13 May 2026 13: 36
            "Blücher." A bit silly, in the German way, but 25 knots. That's a plus that outweighs all the minuses.
            1. +1
              14 May 2026 18: 11
              Quote: MCmaximus
              A bit silly in German

              It’s quite normal.
              A scaled-down Nassau: a new type of cruise missile with a new type of battleship.
              If Fischer hadn't "turned the board" with his LCRs, it would have been a perfectly workable topic.
          3. 0
            13 May 2026 13: 37
            21 knots. Good only for the Japanese war. Its power is impressive, though.
          4. 0
            13 May 2026 13: 38
            The British had many good armored cruisers.
            1. 0
              13 May 2026 13: 48
              British armored cruisers, with their 234mm main guns, would be even slightly inferior to the Pisa or Rurik. Compared to the Blucher, they don't look particularly impressive either.
              1. 0
                13 May 2026 16: 43
                They're all roughly the same type, and there are a lot of them. These are successful solo boats. And the English ones are real cruisers. They have everything you need in moderation.
          5. 0
            13 May 2026 18: 00
            Why are you doing this? There was a German Blucher, essentially the great-grandfather of the heavy cruisers of World War II.
            1. +2
              13 May 2026 18: 46
              Quote: vitaliy20091959
              was a German Blucher, essentially the great-grandfather of the heavy cruisers of World War II

              Nothing at all in common.
        3. 0
          13 May 2026 13: 14
          Who's arguing? Of course, battlecruisers would be better, but who would sell them to Russia?
          1. +1
            13 May 2026 13: 38
            We don't dream about linear ones here)).
          2. 0
            13 May 2026 14: 39
            Although, the Germans did give Turkey a Goeben. True, there were some constant problems with the boilers. But still...
            1. Alf
              0
              13 May 2026 18: 16
              Quote: MCmaximus
              Although, the Germans gave the Goeben to Turkey.

              Not because they really wanted to sell it, but to keep Russia on the Black Sea.
            2. 0
              14 May 2026 18: 14
              Quote: MCmaximus
              Although, the Germans gave the Goeben to Turkey.

              They gave it away purely formally: Yavuz fought with the German team throughout the war.
              Besides, there weren't many options.

              Quote: MCmaximus
              There were, however, some constant problems with the boilers.

              Repairs were needed. They were planning to return it to Germany and replace it with the Tann, but war broke out.
      3. +1
        13 May 2026 16: 11
        Quote: pin_code
        The other three were built after the war. It would have been better to build a couple of "second" Ruriks.

        Better, but where to get the money?
        1. Alf
          0
          13 May 2026 18: 17
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          Quote: pin_code
          The other three were built after the war. It would have been better to build a couple of "second" Ruriks.

          Better, but where to get the money?

          What a familiar situation...
  8. +1
    13 May 2026 08: 56
    Where weren't military ships built for the Russian Federation in the early 20th century? Germany, France...
    The most famous order of the cruiser "Varyag" at the shipyard in Philippine.
    1. +2
      13 May 2026 09: 10
      Quote: dragon772
      Where weren't military ships built for the Russian Federation at the beginning of the 20th century?

      What to do when your own boathouses weren't enough?:))))
      1. +1
        14 May 2026 08: 49
        I forgot to add Italy! The destroyer leader "Tashkent". A Black Sea Fleet legend!!!
        By the way, May 13th is Black Sea Fleet Day! Congratulations to the sailors and veterans of the fleet on this holiday!!!
        1. +1
          14 May 2026 10: 38
          Quote: dragon772
          I forgot to add Italy! Destroyer leader "Tashkent".

          Well, it's not quite the beginning of the century anymore:)))))
          1. 0
            15 May 2026 08: 48
            30s. By the way, it's strange that the tsarist government didn't place orders for construction in Italy.
            1. +1
              15 May 2026 13: 19
              Quote: dragon772
              By the way, it is strange that the tsarist government did not place orders for construction in Italy.

              Nothing strange. In the world rankings they at that time They're nobody and nothing. They haven't submitted any interesting projects to the regularly announced competitions, so why would anyone order from them?
    2. 0
      13 May 2026 10: 32
      All the shipyards are well-known, where Novik, Bogatyr, Askold, Boyarin were built.
    3. Alf
      +1
      13 May 2026 18: 17
      Quote: dragon772
      Where weren't military ships built for the Russian Federation at the beginning of the 20th century?

      In Italy...Spain...Portugal... laughing
      1. +1
        14 May 2026 08: 52
        They didn't build them in Spain or Portugal. In Italy, yes, the destroyer leader "Tashkent."
        It was about him that the Soviet film "Following My Course" (1974) was made.
        1. Alf
          0
          14 May 2026 17: 35
          Quote: dragon772
          They didn't build them in Spain or Portugal. In Italy, yes, the destroyer leader Tashkent.

          If you didn't notice the smiley, I'll put it simply - I'm kidding.
          And how does Tashkent relate to the beginning of the 20th century?
  9. +5
    13 May 2026 09: 27
    The article is a definite plus, respect and admiration to the author, it's a pleasure to read, namesake good
    1. +4
      13 May 2026 10: 35
      Quote: faiver
      Respect and admiration to the author

      Thank you, bolyarin :))))
  10. +2
    13 May 2026 10: 02
    Good afternoon.
    Dear Andrey, thank you for the new series. I find it very interesting, as it concerns not only the RIF but also the French Navy.
    (It might be more correct to call it "Potuo", but that's not certain)

    This is the correct voicing.
    This speed was deemed too modest and raised concerns that the cruisers would be incapable of effectively pirating the shipping lanes. Therefore, it was decided to slightly increase the displacement of the next cruiser and reduce its armor, thereby achieving a speed of 19 knots.

    Despite all their efforts, the Potou only briefly exceeded 19 knots, and that was under forced air. Overall, the French's performance was highly questionable.

    There's nothing questionable; the French got what they wanted. The previous series of armored cruisers had problems with their medium-caliber turrets. More precisely, the turrets were slightly too narrow for the new rapid-fire 140mm guns. As a result, they were only technically rapid-fire. The decision was made to place the 140mm guns in casemates, if you can call them that. A speed of 19 knots was the general requirement for French armored cruisers of the time.
    1. +2
      13 May 2026 10: 54
      Good day, dear Igor!
      Quote: 27091965i
      There is nothing doubtful, the French got what they wanted.

      It's unlikely; they themselves didn't continue serial production of such ships. But what I meant was that our sailors found the cruiser unsuitable.
      1. +1
        13 May 2026 13: 30
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        But what I meant was that our sailors found the cruiser unsuitable.

        These armored cruisers couldn't meet the RIF's vision. If they were used for communications, their operational areas would be the Mediterranean, the East and West coasts of Africa, and, to a limited extent, the Indian Ocean. At the time, the French had only four naval bases outside France. But only two had adequate defenses and coal storage facilities: in Madagascar and on the West Coast of Africa. Therefore, the RIF command didn't satisfy their cruising range and endurance requirements.
        It’s unlikely, since they themselves didn’t continue the serial construction of such ships.

        They did not continue the construction of these cruisers due to the coming to power of the "young school" and its dream of armored cruisers operating in all seas and oceans.
        Although, it is possible that the RIF was familiar with the design of the armored cruiser "Gueydon", which led to the decision to order the armored cruiser "Bayan".
    2. +1
      13 May 2026 13: 54
      Until the French introduced compressed air purging of barrels after firing, all their rapid-fire turret artillery of 138mm, 164mm, and 194mm calibers was a sham. This widespread adoption occurred between 1902 and 1906. Prior to this, cartridge loading necessitated purging the cannon chambers after each shot, and turret crews, inhaling powder gases, would fail after the first few shots. The introduction of barrel purging solved both problems.
      1. +1
        13 May 2026 14: 06
        Quote: AlexanderA
        Until the French introduced compressed air purging of barrels after firing, all their rapid-fire turret artillery of 138mm, 164mm, and 194mm calibers was a sham. This widespread adoption occurred between 1902 and 1906. Prior to this, cartridge loading necessitated purging the cannon chambers after each shot, and turret crews, inhaling powder gases, would fail after the first few shots. The introduction of barrel purging solved both problems.

        Dear Alexander, the French navy's 138,6 (140) mm guns used a single-piece shell. However, separate loading was also used during artillery crew training. For the 164,7 (160) mm guns, both cartridge cases and cartridges were used during loading.
        1. 0
          13 May 2026 14: 57
          My comment on 138,6mm turrets only applies to the issue of gunpowder gas poisoning for the crews. Moreover, the "Dupuy de Lôme" in question didn't have 138,6mm guns.

          As for the guns that were on the "Dupuy de Lôme", the cruiser's "modern" turrets contained:

          http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_76-45_m1887.php

          19 cm/45 (7.64") Model 1887 - Propellant was in two bags.

          http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_65-45_m1893.php (на "Дюпуи де Лом" впрочем были орудия Model 1887)

          Cartridge: 28.9 lbs. (13.10 kg) BM10 or BM11
          bag: 14.8 lbs. (6.70 kg) BM10 or BM11
          1. +1
            13 May 2026 15: 38
            Quote: AlexanderA
            My comment on 138,6mm turrets only applies to the issue of gunpowder gas poisoning for the crews. Moreover, the "Dupuy de Lôme" in question didn't have 138,6mm guns.

            138,6 mm guns were installed on the next series of ships.
            http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons

            I can tell you that most of the information on French naval artillery from 1880 to 1900 on the navweaps website does not correspond to the reports of the Artillery Commission of Le Havre, the Artillery Inspection and the French Navy Ministry.
            1. -1
              13 May 2026 16: 26
              Quote: 27091965i
              I can tell you that most of the information on French naval artillery from 1880 to 1900 on the navweaps website does not correspond to the reports of the Artillery Commission of Le Havre, the Artillery Inspection and the French Navy Ministry.

              But you won't deny that at the end of the 19th century the French, with their single-gun turrets with 194 mm and 164 mm cannons with cartridge loading, and simply with 138,6 mm single-gun turrets, with their cast-iron melinite shells unsuitable for firing using a full powder charge, clearly "entered the wrong door" in naval artillery?

              And these French taught us how to pick our noses They blessed the Russian Imperial Fleet with the designs for the squadron battleship "Tsesarevich" and the armored cruiser "Bayan," which the Russian naval shipbuilding industry, with the approval of the wise Ministry of Transport, also replicated.
              1. +2
                13 May 2026 17: 06
                Quote: AlexanderA
                with their cast iron melinite shells unsuitable for firing with a full powder charge, clearly the naval artillery "entered the wrong door?"

                I'll deny it. I'll explain why. Methods for reducing melinite's sensitivity were known right from the first tests. There were two: the first using sulfur, the second using paraffin. See the patent appendix for the military use of picric acid.
                Following tests conducted in 1888-1890, the Artillery Inspectorate and the Ministry of the Navy issued a decree. For coastal artillery shells filled with melinite, the projectile velocity should not exceed 400 m/s, for medium-caliber naval artillery shells 600 m/s, and for 100 mm naval guns 650 m/s. After refining the composition to reduce the sensitivity of melinite and firing tests in 1893, at increased pressure (I don't remember the pressure), the projectile velocity was 710 m/s. A decision was made to allow increasing the velocity of melinite-filled shells for medium-caliber artillery to 680 m/s. Until 1895, medium-caliber naval artillery in France was divided into two types: Light guns of 100 mm and 138,6 mm caliber, and heavy guns of 164,7 mm and 194 mm. In France, the term "waxed melinite" was used to describe melinite.
                1. 0
                  13 May 2026 19: 01
                  Quote: 27091965i
                  I'll deny it. I'll explain why. Methods for reducing melinite's sensitivity were known right from the first tests. There were two: the first using sulfur, the second using paraffin.

                  It was not only the sensitivity of melinite, which had been used with such caution for more than 15 years, slowly moving from melinite shells for mortars and other howitzers to shells for cannons, in the Russian Empire ("Since 1902, along with mortar bombs, 6-inch bombs filled with melinite have been supplied to fortresses and siege parks for cannons of the 1877 model weighing 120 poods, which have been considered suitable since 1904, and for cannons weighing 190 poods.")

                  The issue is the strength of the shell bodies themselves when fired. Cast iron is unsuitable for high-explosive shell bodies when fired from high-ballistic cannons with full propellant charges.

                  "Experimental 19cm and 24cm Melinite shells were ordered in 1887. Such shells were mentioned in an order dated 10 December 1889. Trials of the new shells were first reported in 1890, and small-caliber Melinite shells were being issued to ships in 1891. These shells were considered as safe as powder-filled Common (a fact the US attaché considered worth mentioning); a decree dated 3 December 1891 ordered such shells stowed in the same shell rooms as those filled with black powder.
                  Another decree stated that ships could carry these shells into harbour. Larger caliber Melinite shells were made of cast iron (they are CI shells in the tables)."

                  Friedman N. Naval weapons of World War One. — Yorkshire: Seaforth Publishing, 2011, p. 650

                  "As of 1909, in prior ships to the République and Démocratie classes, outfits included capped AP and semi-AP, cast-iron, Common, HE and Shrapnel. The République and Démocratie classes were limited to APC and SAPC, and it was proposed to arm the Dantons with a new single type of APC in place of APC and SAPC. It would be about a third heavy, with a burster intermediate between AP and SAP. At that time there was also interest in adopting a large-capacity steel HE-filled shell.

                  Стр. 651

                  "Manufacture of CI (cast iron) shells was stopped in 1905 except as needed to complete outfits of old ships and to take place of steel shell not delivered up to the contract date. There were also HE shells made of cast iron with Melinite bursters (about 10 per cent of shell weight, with delayed-action fuses), for guns of 10 cm and larger caliber. By 1909 manufacture had been stopped."

                  Стр. 652

                  A decision was made to allow the speed of shells filled with melinite for medium-caliber artillery to be increased to 680 m/s.

                  To achieve a muzzle velocity of up to 680 m/s for medium-caliber guns, which deliver significantly higher muzzle velocities when fired with a full propellant charge, separate loading and reduced propellant charges were required. This is what the French were tinkering with, apparently becoming the last major navy in the world to abandon cast-iron shells.
                  1. +2
                    13 May 2026 20: 41
                    Quote: AlexanderA
                    It was not only the sensitivity of melinite, which had been used with such caution for more than 15 years, slowly moving from melinite shells for mortars and other howitzers to shells for cannons, in the Russian Empire ("Since 1902, along with mortar bombs, 6-inch bombs filled with melinite have been supplied to fortresses and siege parks for cannons of the 1877 model weighing 120 poods, which have been considered suitable since 1904, and for cannons weighing 190 poods.")

                    I don’t know why it took so long to get going in Russia.
                    The issue is the strength of the shell bodies themselves when fired. Cast iron is unsuitable for high-explosive shell bodies when fired from high-ballistic cannons with full propellant charges.

                    The French were well aware of this problem, and by 1890 they had already identified the most fragile areas of cast-iron shells: the bottom and the belt mounting points. However, they didn't consider this a major problem, as the primary purpose of cast-iron shells loaded with melinite was to penetrate unarmored parts of a ship.
                    To achieve a muzzle velocity of up to 680 m/s for medium-caliber guns, which deliver significantly higher muzzle velocities when fired with a full propellant charge, separate loading and reduced propellant charges were required. This is what the French were tinkering with, apparently becoming the last major navy in the world to abandon cast-iron shells.


                    On May 26, 1894, the Le Havre Artillery Commission was ordered to conduct experimental firings of melinite-loaded projectiles using BTR10 propellant powder to achieve a pressure as close as possible to 2800 kg. Using various propellant weights, firings were conducted, with pressures ranging from 2542 to 2760 kg. A projectile velocity of 760-780 m/s was achieved. A 138,6 mm naval gun was used, firing single-piece projectiles and separate loading.
                    As you can see, the French were not aware of such conclusions and carried out the shooting quite normally.
                    Friedman N. Naval weapons of World War One. — Yorkshire: Seaforth Publishing, 2011, p. 650

                    Alexey, there's no point in quoting Norman Friedman's books. He didn't bother to thoroughly examine the reports on the firing on the battleship Jena, yet he drew conclusions about the French shells being loaded with high-explosive explosives.
                    I hope you understand that I am writing comments using official documents.
                    1. 0
                      13 May 2026 23: 21
                      Quote: 27091965i
                      I don’t know why it took so long to get going in Russia.

                      Because it's normal for Russia to take a long time to get going. As a result, at turning points:

                      "Russia is not ready for war. — What's surprising about that? Has Russia ever been ready for anything? After all, it's its natural state—to be constantly unprepared." V. Pikul, "Moonsund"

                      There were, of course, subjective reasons as well. On November 28, 1891, the explosion of a 6" bomb filled with melinite killed the Empire's leading melinite enthusiast, Staff Captain S.V. Panpushko, along with two of his assistant soldiers.

                      "From the end of the summer of 1889, Staff Captain S.V. Panpushko began working with melinite. His work was primarily focused on the development of an armor-piercing shell for the 6-inch gun model 1877, weighing 190 poods. In 1891, he began working on a high-explosive shell for the 42-line gun. Panpushko's death in an explosion on November 28, 1891, interrupted work until the end of April 1892, when Staff Captain P.O. Gelfreich was appointed in his place."

                      It was blown up while being equipped by S.V. Panpushko, by the way, on melinite imported from France.

                      After this, melinite was not pursued with much enthusiasm in the Russian Empire, and in 1895, melinite charges were adopted only for mortar bombs for fortress and siege artillery, as well as for 6" field mortar bombs. Cased charges were used for large-caliber 9" and 11" mortar bombs. For 6" bombs, the charges were poured under pressure directly into the shell cavity.

                      On August 18, 1901, during the acceptance tests of a batch of 11-inch deck bombs at the Main Artillery Range, a mortar exploded. Further tests of 9-inch and 11-inch bombs were immediately terminated, the melinite in these shells was temporarily replaced with pyroxylin, the case loading was canceled in February 1902, about 7 thousand of the existing cases were sawn, and the melinite of them, after cleaning, was sent to equip 6-inch bombs.

                      Since the only melinite plant in the Empire, the Okhtensky melinite plant, had a significant reserve of melinite (about 12 thousand poods, plus 5 thousand poods received from discharging cases), in 1902-1903 melinite was simply not produced in Russia.

                      The Russian Imperial Navy did not use melinite shells at all from 1889 until the Russo-Japanese War.
                      In France, they were well aware of this problem, and by 1890 they had already identified the most fragile parts of cast iron shells.

                      In any case, the 680 m/s you mentioned represents reduced ballistics for naval artillery guns of the 1890s. This is precisely why the French Navy tinkered with reduced smokeless powder propellant charges and separate loading for medium-caliber naval guns.

                      So the actual rate of fire of the French naval guns was not at all the same as that demonstrated to the Russian delegation at the beginning of 1891 by “specially trained people” when firing 120-mm/45 and 152-mm/45 Canet guns with unitary rounds.

                      So, they "saving" on ammunition for naval artillery during this period not only in Russia, but also in France.
                      As you can see, the French were not aware of such conclusions and carried out the shooting quite normally.

                      What conclusions were the French unaware of? You yourself wrote: "A naval gun with a caliber of 138,6 mm was used, firing single-piece shells and separate loading." Separate loading was necessary for the 138,6 mm gun to use reduced propellant charges when firing cast-iron shells.
                      Alexey

                      Alexander.
                      There's no point in quoting excerpts from Norman Friedman's books. He didn't bother to examine the reports on the firing on the battleship Jena in detail, yet he drew conclusions about the French shells being loaded with high-explosive explosives.

                      We are not discussing the beneficial French military-technical influence on the Russian Imperial Navy before the Russo-Japanese War, are we?

                      The Jena test firings were in 1909. Melinite is more powerful than TNT. Although, of course, it depends on the degree of phlegmatization. In any case, since the French didn't abandon the use of dinitronaphthalene-phlegmatized trinitrophenol even in their 380 mm OPfK Mle 1936 armor-piercing shells, from Norman's perspective, the French in 1909 truly had a high-powered high explosive. Compared to the American Explosive D, that's certainly true. Do you disagree that phlegmatized melinite is more powerful than phlegmatized TNT or ammonium picrate?

                      Ammonium picrate (Explosive D) TNT equivalent ~0,85
                      Phlegmatized TNT (TNT + 5% wax) TNT equivalent ~0,90
                      Phlegmatized trinitrophenol (80% TNF + 20% DNN) TNT equivalent ~0,92–0,95
                      Trinitroanisole (TNA) TNT equivalent ~1,00-1,05
                      1. +1
                        14 May 2026 08: 27
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        What conclusions were the French unaware of? You yourself wrote: "A naval gun with a caliber of 138,6 mm was used, firing single-piece shells and separate loading." Separate loading was necessary for the 138,6 mm gun to use reduced propellant charges when firing cast-iron shells.

                        It's fun with you, dear Alexander.
                        Not much data;
                        138,6 mm naval gun, model 1891, muzzle velocity of cast iron projectile 639 m/s, muzzle velocity of steel projectile 648 m/s, BTR10 propellant powder.
                        A 138,6 mm naval gun, model 1893, with a cast iron projectile muzzle velocity of 680 m/s.
                        We see an increase in the speed of the projectile.
                        The problem with the strength of cast iron shells was solved by increasing the thickness of the walls and the bottom of the shell.
                        When testing projectiles for increased pressure, separate loading was used to determine the charge weight and achieve the specified pressure. After these values ​​were determined, standard cartridge cases were used to determine the impact on the case walls and base. Once the charge weight standards were adopted, a regulation was issued specifying the weight and propellant type of the charge for unitary projectiles. All of this applies to guns with unitary projectiles.
                        From Norman's point of view, the French in 1909 really did have high-powered high explosives.

                        When there are official documents, Norman's point of view is of secondary importance.
                      2. 0
                        14 May 2026 14: 11
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        When there are official documents, Norman's point of view is of secondary importance.

                        Hello, dear Igor.
                        138,6 mm naval gun, model 1891, muzzle velocity of cast iron projectile 639 m/s, muzzle velocity of steel projectile 648 m/s

                        I suppose if you look at later official documents, according to which the 138,6 mm guns of the 1891 and 1893 models began firing steel projectiles with muzzle velocities of 730-770 m/s, then you might not be so critical of what Norman Friedman wrote.

                        So, anyway, on the matter "at the same time, he drew conclusions about the loading of French shells with highly explosive explosives"Do you agree that phlegmatized French melinite is a more powerful high explosive than American Explosive D? You criticized Norman Friedman, but I haven't read that page of his book and don't quite understand why you criticized him regarding his conclusions about high-powered explosives.
                      3. +3
                        14 May 2026 21: 31
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        I suppose if you look at later official documents, according to which the 138,6 mm guns of the 1891 and 1893 models began firing steel projectiles with muzzle velocities of 730-770 m/s, then you might not be so critical of what Norman Friedman wrote.

                        My criticism stems from Norman Friedman's misleading nature. It seems that in 1891 and 1893, the 138,6 mm Model 1891 and 1893 guns fired steel projectiles with velocities of 730-770 m/s. However, this was not the case; he could just as easily have written that the steel projectile velocity was 807 m/s. These results were obtained during test firings in 1894-1895. His publication is devoted to WWI weaponry, but from 1890 to 1914, significant changes in artillery occurred due to progress. Therefore, when considering this issue, it is necessary to determine the time period under consideration. Comparing Model 1893 guns with Model 1902 guns is pointless.
                  2. +1
                    13 May 2026 21: 59
                    Alexander, I apologize, but for some reason I called you Alexey.
                    Alexey, there is no need to quote excerpts from Norman Friedman's books.
    3. 0
      13 May 2026 18: 04
      The turrets on the Tsarevich and Borodino turned out to be much worse than the 6" casemate turrets on the Retvizan and Japanese battleships.
      1. +2
        13 May 2026 18: 44
        Quote: vitaliy20091959
        The towers on Tsarevich and Borodino turned out to be much worse than the casemate 6"

        And what?
        1. 0
          19 May 2026 12: 38
          https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/rossiyskie-memuaristy-i-istoriki-o-materialnyh-faktorah-tsusimskogo-srazheniya?ysclid=mpbqufdj6v407859562

          "One cannot help but be amazed at the meekness with which the assembly of venerable admirals bowed to the will of the Grand Duke... And if any of the admirals had mustered up any civic courage or had the MTC conducted at least a basic comparison of the merits of turret and casemate artillery, the issue might have turned out differently. Then it would have become clear that, in addition to being unjustifiably complex and excessively expensive, 152mm gun turrets were inferior in rate of fire to casemate mounts, more difficult to maintain, and inconvenient for modernization. Only with the passage of time did the toxic effect of the gases escaping from the barrels during loading become clear; they stupefied the men and forced the regular gunners and crew to alternate at the guns after every shot" [8, pp. 18-19]. The price of the issue lay not in the individual technical advantages of the American project, but in the construction time of the Pacific battleships."
          1. +1
            19 May 2026 13: 15
            Rafail Mikhailovich could write mutually exclusive things in different works)))
            But in general, this question is not for you.
            However, if you like.
            1) Looking at the battle in the ZhM, the actual rate of fire of the turret mounts of the Tsesar and the casemate mounts of the Retvizan was approximately the same. However, the survivability of the artillery was higher on the French project. Judging by Szczesnovich's report, by the end of the battle, the Retvizan had two or three guns in operation on the firing side. On the Tsesar, all of its artillery remained operational.
            2) If we compare the speed of construction of the casemate-type "Peresvets" and the tower-type "Borodintsy", it becomes clear that it is very weakly connected with both the towers and the casemates.
            3) More expensive? Yes. Although not by a significant amount. Valentin Maltsev once quoted the cost of American battleships built by Crump, and the difference between the Alabama and the Iowa isn't that great.
            So I guess it was worth it. IMHO of course.
            Well, regarding the crossing of Garibaldians with the KMU "bayan".
            The Italian ship is wider and shorter, so even with the Frenchman's engines it will never reach the same speed as him.
            The weight of the engines and boilers might fit, but the length is unlikely to be significantly different. Therefore, they will have to be moved to the ends. The twin-gun turrets might not fit in that case. Therefore, we will have to revert to single-gun turrets. And the result of all these modifications will be... the same "Bayan," only without a forecastle and slower. request
            1. +1
              19 May 2026 22: 00
              Quote: Senior Sailor
              Rafail Mikhailovich could write mutually exclusive things in different works)))

              I don't recall anything like that from him. His position was always consistent and logical.
              Looking at the battle in the ZhM, the actual rate of fire of the turret mounts of the "Caesar" and the casemate mounts of the "Retvizan" turned out to be roughly the same. However, the artillery survivability of the French design was higher.

              The distances there were... the 6" guns had to be fired at maximum elevation angles. The gear arches of the hoisting mechanisms on the casemate and deck 6" guns began to fail en masse. The hoisting mechanisms on the turret 6" guns simply didn't have this problem; they had different hoisting mechanisms.

              This is the entire reason for the "approximately identical rate of fire" of the 6" Canet deck and turret guns in the Battle of the Yellow Sea and the low "survivability" (combat survivability is the ability of weapons and equipment to maintain or quickly restore operational capability after combat damage. And here, the casemate and deck mounts were disabled by their own fire) of the 6" Canet casemate and deck mounts. The RIF had not previously tested the Canet guns for a significant number of rounds at elevation angles close to maximum. Nor had they tested them for sustained fire, which consumed a significant portion of their ammunition. The Battle of the Yellow Sea and the Battle of the Korea Strait proved to be such a test almost simultaneously. Such is the fabulous "purity" of the Naval Technical Committee.
              If we compare the speed of construction of the casemate-type Peresvets and the tower-type Borodintsy, it becomes clear that it is very weakly connected with both the towers and the casemates.

              The Tsarevich and Borodino had a fanciful hull shape with a steeply raked freeboard to allow for significant traverse angles for the notorious SK turrets and to reduce the "upper" weight, as the turrets were heavy and positioned higher than the casemate on, say, the Retvizan. Such a hull was simply more labor-intensive to construct.

              The fact that the battleship's effective waterline area rapidly decreased as it heeled was its main design flaw, directly threatening its stability. As an added bonus, the height of the gun ports of the 75mm anti-torpedo battery at its design draft was only about 2,15–2,25 meters above the waterline. On September 23, 1903, during factory sea trials, the Imperator Aleksandr III nearly sank while underway at about 17,3 knots and turning left with the rudder overturned by 15 degrees. The battleship unexpectedly heeled over 15 degrees to starboard and "took water through the lower battery ports."
              More expensive? Yes. Although not by a significant amount.


              https://alternathistory.ru/rossijskij-imperatorskij-flot-vremen-russko-yaponskoj-vojny-skolko-on-stoil/

              Retvizan - 12,21 million rubles.
              "Tsesarevich" - 14,004 million rubles.

              If six Retvizan-class battleships had been built, the difference in construction costs would have been at least 11 million rubles. Add another million and a seventh battleship could have been built. That is, the Retvizan itself and seven more, "of the Retvizan type." And considering that Kram was eager to build not one Retvizan but two... By 1904, they could have simply overwhelmed the Japanese with simple casemate-class Retvizans. Including one or two built in Toulon at the Forche and Chantier facilities.
              Well, regarding the crossing of Garibaldians with the KMU "bayan".
              The Italian ship is wider and shorter, so even with the Frenchman's engines it will never reach the same speed as him.

              To achieve 21 knots during trials on a cruiser with a late Garibaldi hull and a displacement of 7750 tons, a 17500-horsepower crane propulsion system was needed, which is 1000 hp higher than the design capacity of the Bayan crane propulsion system. This is also 500 hp higher than the maximum 16959,5 hp and average 16237-16477 hp of the Bayan crane propulsion system, which achieved an average speed of 20,89-20,91 knots.

              In short, the real Bayan itself didn't achieve 21 knots during sea trials, and a cruiser with a late-Garibaldi hull and the Bayan's crane manoeuvre couldn't have achieved 21 knots during sea trials. But almost, both...
              In terms of weight, the machines and boilers might fit, but in terms of length, it’s unlikely.

              The Garibaldi ships had engine rooms in the center of the hull, with boiler rooms forward and aft. As a reminder, the Tsarevich had 20 Belleville boilers, with a designed crane output of 16300 hp. However, during testing, the ships only demonstrated an actual output of 15,254 hp.

              "Tsarevich." The total area of ​​the grates was 118,56 m², the heating surface of the boilers was 2486 m², and the economizers were 1386,8 m².

              "Bayan." The total grate area was 127,3 square meters, the boiler heating surface was 2760 square meters, and the economizer surface was 1225 square meters.
              And as a result of all these modifications, we get... the same "Bayan", only without a forecastle and slow-moving.

              No. The crane manipulator weights are given; the excess weight is less than 98 tons. Twenty-four Belleville boilers with economizers were sufficient. As is well known, during the Admiral Makarov's sea trials, this same crane manipulator with a contract rating of 16500 horsepower (apparently manufactured to a higher quality than the one on the Bayan) produced an actual maximum power of 19320 horsepower, which allowed the Admiral Makarov to reach a whopping 22,5 knots on one run. However, all this: "Thanks to good organization and the enormous number of boiler crews, an average of six people per boiler, including coal carriers in the stokers." This meant that the delivery conditions, as always, were incomparably different from the conditions of boiler maintenance by the official stokers.
              So we'll have to go back to single-gun hulls. And the result of all these modifications will be... the same "Bayan," only without a forecastle and slower.

              Taking into account further progress in naval artillery, with two 10" guns with an elevation angle of up to 35 degrees, the Garibaldi-class cruisers looked clearly more interesting than with four 8".

              You're spouting such horror stories about "the same Bayan, only without a forecastle and slower" when replacing the project's engines with those with a contractual power rating of 16500 hp and boilers from fire-tube (and Ansaldo clearly proposed MTK a copy of the Nishin with fire-tube boilers) to water-tube boilers that I don't even know where you're getting them from. They don't follow at all from the parameters of the crane manoeuvres used as a model for the historic Bayan or even the Tsarevich with its Belleville boilers and economizers.
              1. +1
                23 May 2026 12: 50
                Somehow I missed this answer. So I'll keep it brief.
                Quote: AlexanderA
                I don't remember him doing anything like that.

                And you read more carefully)
                Rafail Mikhailovich set himself the task of not only reporting on the ships but also exposing the regime. And the latter often took center stage at the expense of the former.
                Quote: AlexanderA
                The Tsarevich and Borodino had a fanciful hull shape with a strong slope of the freeboard to provide significant horizontal aiming angles for the notorious SK turrets and to reduce the "upper" weight, because the turrets were heavy and located higher than the casemate on the same Retvizan.

                Are you saying that the casemates at Peresvet and Pobeda are even more ornate than the Borodinsky towers?
                IMHO, colleague, but you attach too much importance to this aspect.
                Quote: AlexanderA
                Retvizan - 12,21 million rubles.
                "Tsesarevich" - 14,004 million rubles.

                These are prices for ships built in foreign shipyards. Prices for francs have always been higher than for American ships, that's true. But what makes you think our Retvizan clones would be cheaper? The prices were probably about the same as for the Borodino-class ships. Don't believe me? Look at the price of the Potemkin.
                Quote: AlexanderA
                Kram was eager to build not one Retvizan, but two... in short, they could have simply spammed the Japanese with simple casemate Retvizans by 1904.

                Colleague, this has been discussed more than once. The Crump shipyards were heavily booked for the American Navy, and the window of opportunity wasn't all that wide.
                And given the Retvizan's problems with its chassis, ventilation, and drainage systems, the value of such an acquisition is difficult to overestimate.
                Quote: AlexanderA
                No. The weights of the cranes are given, the excess weight is less than 98 tons.

                Yuri wrote to you that the Bayan crane manipulator won't fit within the Garibaldi's dimensions. And this is one case where I completely agree with him. And if we start making changes to the design, we'll end up with what I described. The original turrets (already cramped) won't fit closer to the ends. We'll have to use something smaller, and we'll end up with a hybrid with poor seaworthiness, endurance, and habitability.
                Because miracles don't happen.
                As for speed, the Garibaldians are even worse (even the Poireydon and Bellevilles), and the Asamoids are no better.
                Quote: AlexanderA
                Taking into account further progress in naval artillery with two 10" with an elevation angle of up to 35 degrees, the Garibaldi-class cruisers

                In my opinion, they looked more interesting in this configuration from the very beginning.
                And yes, something "repeat-like" but a couple thousand tons heavier and with two 10" guns in the end turrets would be much better than in reality. But... I absolutely fail to see why the MTK would demand such performance characteristics from a cruiser?
                And finally, no developed naval power built anything like the Asamoids or Garibaldians for themselves. Except perhaps the Germans, but they weren't particularly great yet.
                British and American cruisers with armament similar to the Asams had a displacement of several thousand tons greater.
                There's a nuance, though. "Rivadavia" and "Morena," which became "Kasuga" and "Nishin." Were they worth buying? Definitely. Because, as the unforgettable IVS aptly put it, a ship bought from the enemy (in this case, repurchased) is worth two. One more for us, and one less for them.
                And had they been in Arthur, when pure cruising functions faded into the background, giving way to firepower, the gains could have been significant. The only problem was that they were never able to keep up with the PTE, and I'm afraid they would have been much less useful in the second squadron.
                Something like that.
                1. 0
                  23 May 2026 18: 46
                  Quote: Senior Sailor
                  And you read more carefully)

                  Colleague, please provide examples of mutually exclusive paragraphs in Rafail Mikhailovich's works. I'll read them with interest.
                  Rafail Mikhailovich set himself the task of not only telling about the ships, but also exposing the regime.

                  Like something bad. It's so intellectually appropriate to denounce the regime. I, for one, although I'm NOT an intellectual, can successfully denounce the Tsarist, Soviet, and current regimes. I can write a long letter about the glaring military-technical flaws under any of these regimes. laughing
                  Are you saying that the casemates at Peresvet and Pobeda are even more ornate than the Borodinsky towers?

                  The Peresvets were also a failure of domestic shipbuilding (without the word "wonderful"). However, their labor intensity was clearly lower than that of the Borodino ships. Kramp's Retvizan, however, is a beauty. Only two significant flaws: the boilers were of the "wrong type" and the 2" belt armor at the ends. Both were easily corrected with a slight increase in displacement.
                  As Sergei Anatolyevich Balakin put it: "Battleship Retvizan. The best battleship of the Russo-Japanese War." And I've already quoted what Rafail Mikhailovich Melnikov wrote about the Retvizan.
                  After all, the United States was rapidly approaching technological leadership back then. I wonder what Crump would have built if he'd been given the chance? As I understand it, a battleship with 8" medium-caliber guns in its turrets. However, the Poltava-class battleships could have been similar. But certainly not under those "economy-minded" leaders.
                  IMHO, colleague, but you attach too much importance to this aspect.

                  A raked side and a reduction in the effective waterline area when heeled? I'll just point out that the French stopped messing around with a severely raked freeboard already on the Republik-class battleships, laid down in 1901–1902. We, with the "sudden" Tsarevich, managed to pick up this "fashion" from the French literally a few years before it died out. After Tsushima, no one even considered such projects.
                  Colleague, this has been discussed more than once or twice.

                  I'm simply voicing what Kramp himself proposed. But how can we have a series? It's better to order a battleship here, a battleship there, a cruiser there, a cruiser there (the French also proposed building two Bayan-class cruisers at once – they should have built two, maybe Lagan wouldn't have rushed to St. Petersburg with his battleship design in May 1898), and a cruiser here, there, and there. We're not like Argentina, with four armored cruisers of the same type (and two more ordered, but never purchased. They weren't needed). It took us fifteen years to order two cruisers at once, albeit from a potential adversary. wink
                  What makes you think our Retvizan clones would be cheaper? The prices were probably about the same as the Borodino tanks. Don't believe me? Look at the price of the Potemkin there.

                  "Due to the protracted construction (1898–1905), the introduction of technological innovations, as well as the costs of eliminating the consequences of a major fire and replacing defective armor on the towers, the final cost significantly exceeded the initial estimates."
                  Yuri wrote to you that the Bayan crane manipulator won't fit within the Garibaldi's dimensions. And this is one case where I completely agree with him.

                  The AI ​​told me that the Giuseppe Garibaldi, Varese, and Ferruccio boiler rooms had a boiler room area of ​​~432 m2, and the engine room area was ~256 m2. The total crane area was ~688 m2.

                  On the other hand, according to the Bayan AI, the area of ​​the boiler rooms was ~504 m2, the area of ​​the engine rooms was ~177 m2. The total area of ​​the crane manipulators was ~681 m2.

                  It's clear that AI can make things up, but at least it's ready to come up with numbers.
                  In my opinion, they looked more interesting in this configuration from the very beginning.

                  Yes, to "drive up" to such a thing crooked goat The cruiser with 8" artillery was scary.
                  And yes, something "like a button accordion" but a couple of thousand tons heavier and with two 10" in the end turrets would be much better than in reality.

                  Unfortunately, we didn't know how to make light turret mounts. The AI ​​just came up with a bunch of turret mounts out of thin air.

                  "Giuseppe Garibaldi" 10" x 1 ~ 135 tons, 8" x 2 ~ 150 tons
                  "Oleg" 6" x 2 ~98 tons
                  "Bayan" 8" x 1,157 tons
                  "St. Andrew the First-Called" 8" x 2,203 tons
                  "Rurik" 8" x 2,346 tons
                  "Pobeda" 10" x 2,362 tons
                  "Rurik" 10" x 2,346 tons

                  Something like this.
                  But... I absolutely do not see why the MTK could demand such performance characteristics from a cruiser?

                  Of course, the MTC couldn't demand twin-gun turrets. They're about 50 tons heavier, each one! The designer failed to meet the MTC's maximum displacement requirement of 6700 tons (May 7, 1897), which "if necessary, the design firm may increase the displacement to 7000 tons with the permission of the Director of the Naval Ministry" (June 11, 1897), even with single-gun 8" turrets.
                  British and American cruisers with armament similar to the Asams had a displacement of several thousand tons greater.

                  They were designed for the ocean, not for the closed and restricted theaters of marginal seas. The Brooklyn, for example, has a four-engine crane manoeuvre system with an economical speed of two engines, a normal coal capacity of 900 tons and a full coal capacity of 1500 tons, and... 100-foot smokestacks.

                  https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1966/april/uss-brooklyn-pictorial

                  "additional natural draft allowed for coal savings"
                  Were they worth buying? Definitely yes.

                  If our unforgettable MTK had better understood the technical prospects of the naval war at that time, they would have been able to purchase such ships, not by chance, due to Argentina's refusal, and their equivalents would have been built in time – two in Toulon, and three or four more at other shipyards, instead of the armored deck ships of the 1898 program. But no, even this opportunity was missed. The intellectual level of the "decision makers" is what led to the well-known outcome.
                  1. 0
                    24 May 2026 15: 52
                    Quote: AlexanderA
                    At the same time, the labor intensity of their construction was clearly lower than that of the Borodino people.

                    But they cost longer. Even the "Pobeda." Which completely refutes your thesis.
                    Quote: AlexanderA
                    The lifting mechanisms of the 6" tower installations simply did not have this problem, other lifting mechanisms did.

                    Which is another argument in favor of towers)))
                    The lifting mechanisms there are the same. As I understand it, the problem wasn't so much with the arches, but with the weakness of the decks. The towers themselves are more stable, so the arches didn't break.
                    But it’s not just the arcs that are the issue, but also the fact that the Retvizan’s overall battery, without solid bulkheads, was less well protected.
                    Quote: AlexanderA
                    There are only two significant drawbacks: boilers of the "wrong system" and 2" belt armor at the ends.

                    Colleague Rytik listed other shortcomings: ventilation, unsinkability, etc.
                    I don't remember you objecting to him)))
                    Quote: AlexanderA
                    MTK, of course, could not require two-gun turrets.

                    In the neighboring thread I listed the disadvantages of two-gun turrets.
                    And the Garibalians with the Asamoids also have ammo in their towers.
                    Quote: AlexanderA
                    The AI ​​gave it to me

                    I have no more questions.
                    Regarding Melnikov. If I'm not mistaken, after all these years, in one monograph (Was Rurik the first?) he describes turrets firing faster than deck and casemate guns. But when he writes about the "St. Andrew the First-Called," it's the opposite.
                    1. 0
                      25 May 2026 11: 50
                      Quote: Senior Sailor
                      But they cost longer. Even the "Pobeda." Which completely refutes your thesis.

                      They were built "unhurriedly." Don't you agree that the low cost of the battleship Pobeda—9,535,924 rubles, according to the "Most Honest Report on the Naval Department for 1897-1900"—is due to its less labor-intensive construction compared to the Borodino-class battleships?

                      I would like to hear your version of how the cost turned out to be ~1/3 lower with approximately the same labor intensity of construction (in man-hours).
                      Which is another argument in favor of towers)))

                      This is yet another argument in favor of the need to properly test new models of weapons and military equipment, as well as ammunition, rather than the way it was done in the Russian Empire in the 1890s and early 1900s. The problems with the lifting mechanisms of the deck and casemate 6" Canet and 8" Brink guns, which surfaced only during the battles in the Yellow Sea and the Korea Strait, turned out to be easier to solve than the problem of the low rate of fire of these same guns in turrets. In the Russian Imperial Navy, the turret mounts of the 6" Canet and 8" Brink guns never caught up with the rate of fire of the deck and casemate mounts of these same guns.
                      The same lifting mechanisms are there.

                      They had different elevation mechanisms. On the Poltava-class turrets manufactured by the Obukhov Shipyard, the elevation angles ranged from -5 to +15 degrees. On the deck turrets, the elevation angles ranged from -6 to +20 degrees. Turrets of subsequent designs also ranged from -6 to +20 degrees, but, unlike the Poltava-class turrets, they actually had electric elevation drives. On the most widely produced turrets from the Metal Plant, the elevation mechanism was a screw connected to a hinge with a collar.
                      But it’s not just the arcs that are the issue, but also the fact that the Retvizan’s overall battery, without solid bulkheads, was less well protected.

                      N. E. Kuteinikov proposed implementing all-round splinter protection for the guns in the battery back on the Rossiya. As was always the case, this sensible proposal was not accepted. They settled on 1,5" dividing semi-bulkheads. How many examples do you know of multiple guns being destroyed by a single shell in armored SK batteries with dividing semi-bulkheads?
                      Colleague Rytik listed other shortcomings: ventilation, unsinkability, etc.
                      I don't remember you objecting to him)))

                      You have a good memory. I personally don't even recall that discussion with my colleague Rytik. Yes, the idea of ​​floating spheres of "inappropriate strength" didn't work out, but that flaw was easily remedied. On the other hand, the AI ​​notes the Retvizan's significant advantage in habitability.

                      "On the Retvizan, the sailors' quarters were spacious, with a height from the wooden deck planking to the lower edge of the beams of approximately 2,1–2,2 meters. The air volume per enlisted man was approximately 3,5–4 cubic meters. The ship had an excellent, by the standards of its time, forced-air ventilation system (electric blowers and exhaust fans on all living decks). Thanks to this, even with a full crew (over 750 men), the quarters did not feel stuffy or overcrowded."

                      "The crew's quarters were highly comfortable, well-planned, and well-thought-out. All the furniture on the battleship was made of metal, which was somewhat unusual for the Russian navy. The battleship had two well-equipped sick bays. In addition to the sick bays, the EBR had numerous showers, a spacious laundry, and other nice touches that significantly eased the sailors' workload."

                      The volume of living quarters per sailor on the Tsarevich was noticeably lower and amounted to about 2,5–2,8 m³."

                      I don't recall reading about such "benefits of civilization" on the "Tsarevich" as a laundry and an electric dough mixer in the bakery.
                      1. +1
                        25 May 2026 12: 43
                        And have you read about Garibaldi???
                      2. +1
                        25 May 2026 13: 04
                        I read it on "Bayan".

                        "Such a typical concern was the decision made somewhat earlier in MTK journal No. 68 of April 2, 1899. This concerned I.K. Grigorovich's request (report dated March 3/15, 1899) to include an aft bridge (6 rubles) and a laundry (7,2 rubles) in the cruiser design. The bridge was needed for operating the spare aft steering wheel, in case of damage to the bow one, as well as for anchor handling, for the officer of the watch, and for signalmen. A laundry was already considered justified at that time for providing for the crew's daily needs. However, the Main Directorate for Shipbuilding and Shipbuilding Services considered the usefulness of these innovations questionable. Moreover, they "could shake the cost estimates" and upset the "balance of the extraordinary budget."
                        The MTK also saw no need for a bridge. The ship lacks a sail area (which was justified by the presence of an aft bridge for sail control—PM), and in addition to the conning tower, it has a central control station protected by armor, so "there is hardly any need for a bridge beyond that." However, a laundry and drying system, for which the ship had space, would have been appropriate.
                        The final decision, as was often the case then, was left to the discretion of His Excellency the Administrator of the Naval Ministry. In that same hideously illegible handwriting, His Excellency wrote: "Not wishing to comply with the already approved drawings and specifications (let the reader decipher it – PM), I do not agree to the construction of either the ports or laundries, or the aft bridge" (RGA VMF, f. 421, op. 8, d. 62, l. 886)."


                        P.M. Melnikov. "Armored cruiser "Bayan". 1897-1904." p. 25

                        So, the laundry and bakery with an electric kneader are only there because Kramp built the Retvizan practically according to his own design. The bastard did whatever he wanted, within the meager specifications and displacement limits. wink

                        Neither the MTK, nor, especially, Grand Duke Alexei Alexandrovich, saw much point in all these "excesses" during construction, and they weren't approved at Bayan. They wouldn't have been approved at the hypothetical "Garibaldi," either, which was a successful project, but from the early 1890s. What electric dough mixers?
                      3. +1
                        25 May 2026 13: 40
                        I'm talking about ventilation, drainage system, and not about the bakery...
                      4. 0
                        25 May 2026 14: 43
                        I thought you were talking about the laundry and electrical equipment in the bakery. Everything there was normal for the late 19th century: 75 watertight compartments, a complete lack of watertight doors in the lower parts of the main bulkheads, etc.

                        https://www.rulit.me/books/bronenosnye-krejsera-tipa-garibaldi-read-326460-9.html

                        "The Garibaldi ships were among the most electrified vessels of their time: electricity was used for ventilation, operating boat cranes, rotating and elevating the main caliber guns, lighting trailers, and feeding ammunition. The electrical system of the first cruisers of the series consisted of 700 lamps and 4 additional blocks of 16 powerful lamps each, which were used for lighting during coal loading. Combat lighting varied from one ship of the series to another; for example, on the San Martin, large Schuckert searchlights with parabolic mirrors were arranged as follows: one, 750 mm in diameter and with a 360-degree rotation angle, was located at the rear of the mast, and four more, 600 mm in diameter and with a 180-degree illumination angle, were located on the superstructure at the stern.

                        Power for all these devices was supplied by four Tosi dynamos, consisting of a vertical steam engine and a four-pole generator (designed by the Technical Institute of Milan). Each unit produced a maximum current of approximately 300 A at 70 V and a low engine speed (280). Typically, one pair of dynamos served the cruiser's lighting system, while the second supplied power to all auxiliary machinery (fans, tower rotation drives, feed elevators, injectors, bakery equipment, etc.).

                        Auxiliary systems and devices. The dewatering system consisted of two main circulation pumps with a capacity of 1100 tons of water per hour each, and an additional "Tyrion" pump with a capacity of 400 tons per hour.
                      5. 0
                        25 May 2026 16: 22
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        They were built "without haste"

                        They were already in a hurry to win.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        with approximately the same labor intensity

                        Why do you think that the cost consists only of wages?
                        Yes, the Pobeda is cheaper, but its combat qualities are also inferior. Main gun, armor, etc.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        You have a good memory.

                        Unfortunately, not always request
                        But now https://topwar.ru/277247-o-poektah-bronenoscev-dlja-nuzhd-dalnego-vostoka-ch-kramp-a-lagan-kk-ratnik.html#findcomment15795856
                        Here's what a colleague writes about ventilation
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The Retvizan's ventilation system is an archaism, dating back to the days when ships had several powerful steam fans, with ventilation ducts running halfway across the ship.
                        There were already dozens of electric fans on the Peresvet, and the ventilation ducts went almost exclusively upwards, without violating the integrity of the bulkheads.
                      6. 0
                        25 May 2026 19: 49
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Why do you think that the cost consists only of wages?

                        The discussion was about the less labor-intensive construction of the Retvizan compared to that of the Tsarevich. For some reason, you've decided that the ship's construction cost isn't directly related to its labor-intensive construction. Or have I misunderstood you?
                        https://topwar.ru/277247-o-poektah-bronenoscev-dlja-nuzhd-dalnego-vostoka-ch-kramp-a-lagan-kk-ratnik.html#findcomment15795856

                        I did not participate in this discussion, in which the esteemed Alexei so pointedly pitted the Peresvet against the Retvizan. Yet, as we know from the swift destruction of the battleship Oslyabya, the Retvizan was superior to the Peresvet in terms of the complex of characteristics that ensured its combat survivability.
                        The Retvizan's ventilation system is an archaism, dating back to the days when ships had several powerful steam fans, with ventilation ducts running halfway across the ship.

                        A critical flaw was discovered in the Retvizan's ventilation system after the torpedoing: the automatic ball valves with hollow copper balls did not function as intended by the designers of these innovative valves. We can only guess how these valves would have worked if the balls had been made of higher-quality sheet steel rather than sheet copper.

                        In any case, these valves weren't an archaism, but an innovation. With the exception of these valves, I found no complaints in the literature about the systems that ensured the ship's unsinkability. On the contrary:

                        http://www.navy.su/navybook/melnikov/varyag/03.html

                        "The Varyag and Retvizan were the first ships to utilize entirely new principles of unsinkability. They proved their high effectiveness in combat. The Retvizan, despite 500 tons of water in its flooded bow compartment, participated with its squadron in the battle of July 28, 1904, when the Port Arthur squadron attempted to break through to Vladivostok. The Varyag, however, remained afloat during its famous battle despite sustaining heavy damage.

                        The Tsarevich's unsinkability was supposed to be ensured by longitudinal anti-torpedo bulkheads weighing a total of 770 tons. Because of this, the ship only had a full coal capacity of 1370 tons, compared to the Retvizan's full coal capacity of 2000-2250 tons (according to various sources). These bulkheads were of no help when torpedoed on the first night of the war. After the torpedo, the ship took on 2000 tons of water, and the battleship's maximum list reached 18 degrees. Calculations predicted that another half degree would have inevitably led to the ship capsizing. Was the bulkhead an innovation? It certainly was. However, the execution was poor.

                        The Retvizan suffered a similar fate, with its innovative automatic valves in its air ducts failing to work. After the torpedo hit, the battleship is believed to have taken on up to 2200 tons of water. However, the Retvizan's list only reached 11 degrees before it began to right itself.

                        In any case, had the torpedoing occurred in the open sea rather than in the outer roads of Port Arthur, both ships would have perished. The Tsarevich would have continued to take on water and most likely exhausted its buoyancy. The Retvizan would have capsized long before exhausting its buoyancy.

                        The flaw in the watertightness of the ship's watertight bulkheads due to the faulty design of the automatic valves in its ventilation system on the Retvizan was relatively easy to correct.

                        The Retvizan's tendency to rapidly increase its list when its underwater hull sustains combat damage, followed by sudden capsizing, cannot be corrected... unless the entire ship is rebuilt in the style of what the Japanese did to the Orel, which they renamed the Iwami.
                      7. 0
                        26 May 2026 10: 40
                        Colleague, if you don't agree with Rytik, argue with him.
                        As for comparing the stability of the Retvizan and the Tsarevich, I can only say one thing: the former remained stuck in the outer roadstead for a long time after being torpedoed, while the latter entered the inner roadstead under its own power.
                        I don't think the Retvizan's original flaws could have been avoided by cloning it at Russian shipyards. Rather, they would have been exacerbated by overloading and quality. And the need to implement "innovations," like the Niklos boilers, would have eaten up most of the potential savings.
                        In any case, the Retvizan had a less reliable crane control mechanism, inferior armor, and unsinkability and ventilation systems. The Tsarevich, of course, had its own shortcomings, but it's clear that the MTK's choice of the French design was well-founded.
                      8. 0
                        27 May 2026 14: 49
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Colleague, if you don't agree with Rytik, argue with him.

                        So, I'm arguing with the esteemed Alexey. But it turns out I'm also arguing with you, colleague. You also believe that the "Tsesarevich" was a more successful prototype for serial production at domestic shipyards than the "Retvizan."

                        Both the respected R.M. Melnikov and the respected S.A. Balakin, in their books, strongly disagreed with you, colleague, and with the opinion of the respected Alexey Rytik on this matter.

                        As usual, I opportunistically agree with the opinions of book authors on this issue. Probably because I dislike post-book postmodernism and its rebellion against modernism. wink
                        As for comparing the stability of the Retvizan and the Tsarevich, I can only say one thing: the former remained stuck in the outer roadstead for a long time after being torpedoed, while the latter entered the inner roadstead under its own power.

                        The only difference is that "Tsarevich" "was a lucky break":

                        "They ran aground in the passage: by that time the ship had taken on about 2000 tons of water, and the stern draft had increased by 2,3 meters. They were able to get off the sand only by partially unloading the stern compartments, which was achieved by one o'clock in the afternoon."

                        And the second, with 2200 tons of water in its bow compartments, "made a bad entry" and ran aground.

                        "The first to run aground, bow first, right in the channel at 1:50 a.m., was the Retvizan, which was swung across the fairway by the current, blocking most of the harbor entrance. Then, after passing the helpless Retvizan, the Tsarevich also ran aground stern first. The Pallada, which escaped serious damage, dropped anchor near the Lyushinkou lighthouse.

                        The Tsarevich's draft was reduced slightly by unloading its aft compartments of ammunition and coal, and at 1:00 PM, with the help of engines and tugs, it was brought into the inner roadstead. The Retvizan, however, was firmly stuck.

                        Attempts to refloat the battleship on the evening of January 27th by three cargo ships were unsuccessful. Efforts to pump out the water using the harbor tug "Silach" also failed.

                        In order to refloat the Retvizan, it was necessary not only to unload coal and shells, but also to remove the armor and dismantle the 305 mm guns of the bow turret.
                        I don't think that by cloning the Retvizan at Russian shipyards, the original shortcomings of the project could have been avoided.

                        What do you mean, would they have installed those same "innovative" automatic valves with pop-up copper balls? I don't think they would have. MTK isn't Kramp; MTK wouldn't have approved these "untested" valves on Russian-built battleships. Especially since they'd likely have had to pay patent royalties.
                        Rather, they would be aggravated by overload and quality.

                        The simpler the naval architecture, the fewer quality issues domestic shipyards would have. What about overload? For the Retvizan, whose main armor belt was designed to rise three feet (0,91 meters) above the waterline, it wasn't as critical as for the Tsarevich and its clones, whose main armor belt was designed to rise 0,46-0,5 meters above the waterline. As overload increased, the Tsarevich sank more slowly than the Borodino-class battleships with their unique hull shape. And what was there to overload with a designed full coal reserve of 2000 tons (in other sources up to 2250 tons) against the designed full coal reserve on the Tsarevich and most of the battleships of the Borodino class of 1350-1370 tons?
                        And the need to introduce “innovations,” like the same Niklos boilers, would eat up most of the possible savings.

                        I don't see any reason why the hypothetical serial Russian Retvizans would have the Nikloss boilers that Cramp negotiated for them, rather than the Belleville ones.

                        According to the agreed preliminary specifications, the weight of the Retvizan crane is 1318 tons (I don’t know whether it’s with water or without).

                        The mass of the Tsarevich crane is 1430 tons (with water).

                        And do you really think that, because of an extra 112 tons, MTK would agree to the mass use of Nikloss boilers instead of the "reliable" Belleville boilers on the series of battleships being built in Russia?
                        In any case, the Retvizan had a less reliable crane manoeuvre, worse armour, unsinkability and ventilation systems.

                        In addition to the one-time accident with Nikloss boilers at Retvizan, in which six stokers were scalded (three fatally), you've just voiced a number of unsubstantiated assertions. There were more reliability issues with the Tsarevich steam engine's cast iron crane manipulators:

                        https://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/WeaponBook/Cesarevich_1/09.htm

                        "On the second day after leaving Colombo—that was at 5 a.m. on October 24—the Tsarevich discovered that the eccentric yoke of the left engine had become very hot. The irreparable had happened—the cast-iron part broke almost immediately. This was already the third accident. The passion for cast iron and the tolerance for it of all the naval and shipbuilding authorities threatened to render the newest battleship helpless again. Replacing the broken yoke with a spare one obtained in Poros took about a day. On October 25, they continued on their way."

                        The Tsarevich's superior armor is largely fictitious due to the use of wedge-shaped armor plates in its main belt. In fact, the battleships were comparable in terms of armor mass, but the Retvizan's main belt was thicker. Its central section was a respectable 229 mm thick, with the upper edge 0,91 meters above the waterline as designed, rather than the 250 mm designed for the upper portion, except at 0,5 meters above the waterline, with a "gradual reduction" to 210 mm toward the center of the plate. But this is only significant for later times. In fact, against Japanese artillery during the Russo-Japanese War, the most important factor was the overall armor coverage of the side, in which the Retvizan significantly outperformed the Tsarevich. The Tsarevich's remarkable longitudinal torpedo bulkheads played no role during the war, but they did reduce the battleship's designed coal capacity. After all:

                        https://litlife.club/books/193320/read?page=55

                        "Since the boiler rooms, engine rooms and bomb cellars were directly adjacent to the armored anti-mine bulkhead on the inside, it was necessary to abandon the installation of side coal pits.

                        Therefore, the placement of the coal pits on the Tsarevich differed sharply from those on the previous battleships, the Petropavlovsk, Peresvet, and Retvizan, which had side pits. This arrangement presented significant inconveniences:

                        a) the coal in the side compartments served as an additional and fairly effective protection against mine explosions by absorbing the energy of gases to crush and compress the coal;

                        b) the side compartments remained unused for stowing payloads, resulting in the battleship losing a significant amount of underwater volume, amounting to 2292 m² between both sides, or 13% of the ship's normal displacement. This led to significant constraints in the placement of holds and a sharp reduction in the capacity of the pits, and consequently, a reduction in the cruising area.

                        The normal coal reserve was taken as 800 tons, and the full capacity of all pits was 1370 tons, while on the battleship Retvizan, which was being built at the same time, the full coal reserve reached 2000 tons, and on ships of the Peresvet type even up to 2500 tons."

                        In short, the Tsarevich, who had fallen behind the squadron after the battle in the Yellow Sea, headed not to Vladivostok, but to Qingdao, where he was interned, because on the night after the battle it was decided on board that there was not enough coal for Vladivostok.
                        It is quite obvious that the choice of the MTC in favor of the French project had its reasons.

                        If we look at the history of the issue, the Tsarevich was chosen for production at Russian shipyards and by the technical entity we know about for no technical reason at all. The MTK, as we know for certain with historical hindsight, was frankly sloppy in its work during that period. For example, the MTK failed to verify the actual rate of fire of both Russian and French turret artillery. No, the MTK did find out a few things:

                        https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/sozdanie-bashennyh-ustanovok-dlya-6-dyuymovyh-skorostrelnyh-pushek-russkogo-flota-na-rubezhe-xix-xx-vv

                        "An inspection of the turret mounts for the 152-mm guns, which the OSZ had managed to assemble on the battleship Petropavlovsk, was carried out by the MTK in September 1898 [15, p. 63]. It was found that the speed
                        firing from turret guns does not exceed one salvo in 45 seconds"

                        But as often happened in the work of the MTC, “I didn’t attach any importance to this.”
                      9. +1
                        27 May 2026 15: 43
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        The best booking of the "Tsarevich" is largely fictitious due to

                        It's exactly the same on "retvizan"
                        The Retvizan's main armor belt was 2,14 meters high and 78 meters long, and consisted of 17 plates. Its thickness was 229 mm. Under water it gradually decreased to 127 mm."
                        If, of course, you believe Balakina)))
                        https://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/MK/1999_04/06.htm
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        the total area of ​​the side armor protection, in which the Retvizan was significantly superior to the Tsarevich

                        Also fictitious))
                        Since a significant part of this area is 51mm slabs that in fact do not protect anything request
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        What do you mean, would they have installed the same "innovative" automatic valves with pop-up copper balls?

                        I mean, they would have built it with overload.
                        I don't see any reason why the hypothetical serial Russian Retvizans would have the Nikloss boilers that Cramp negotiated for them, rather than the Belleville ones.

                        And after your attempts to insert the Bayan CMU into the Garibaldians, I am not at all surprised by this.
                        There's essentially only one obstacle: the entire project would have to be redone. The only real advantage of the American design is that it's based on inches and can be relatively easily adapted to our own inch-based standards. But to do so, it would need to be accepted without any modifications.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        In short, the Tsarevich, who had fallen behind the squadron after the battle in the Yellow Sea, headed not to Vladivostok, but to Qingdao, where he was interned, because on the night after the battle it was decided on board that there was not enough coal for Vladivostok.

                        Consumption increased due to damaged pipes, which Retvizan wasn't immune to.
                        And yes, the fact that the Tsarevich had his own shortcomings with the Retvizan machines doesn’t make things any better.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        "Inspection of turret mounts for 152 mm guns,

                        Is it true that the Petropavlovsk had completely different turret installations?
                        And by the way, "Poltava" and "Sevastopol" also fired more 152mm shells per barrel in the ZhM than "Retvizan"
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        making our ships barely firing, incapacitated, burning ruins.

                        As if our ships with casemates could fire back any better...
                        Colleague, it's your will, but this verbosity has tired me out.
                      10. +1
                        27 May 2026 23: 46
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        It's exactly the same on "retvizan" If, of course, you believe Balakina)))

                        On the Retvizan, the slab thickness began to decrease underwater, while on the Tsesarevich, it began immediately from the upper edge. Considering that, according to the design, at normal displacement, the upper edge of the main pressure plate on the Retvizan was three feet above the water surface, you can feel the difference.
                        Since a significant part of this area is 51mm slabs that in fact do not protect anything

                        In fact, everything turned out like this:

                        https://litvek.com/book-read/480907-kniga-evgeniy-vladimirovich-polomoshnov-boy-28-iyulya-1904-goda-chitat-online?p=98

                        "Time: 12:30-16:30 (the exact time of the damage is not indicated)
                        1.1. A 10-12" high-explosive shell struck the starboard side in the area of ​​the sick bay, striking the upper left edge of a 51mm plate made of unhardened steel. It exploded, denting the plate and tearing off the mounting bolts. The plate cracked at the dent, and the crack extended to the porthole. Small fragments scratched the side and deformed the semi-port of the 75mm gun above. The net barrier below on the shelf was undamaged, as was the torpedo loading port (to the right of the impact). The hole was heavily flooded.


                        A crack in 2" armor after a 10-12" high-explosive shell detonated 152 mm of armor and twisted the turrets on their rollers... pretty bad. Most likely, an incomplete detonation of the explosive shell.

                        You're aware, of course, that the Project 24 battleship was designed with a 50mm armor belt on the bow? Didn't that also "protect against anything," in your opinion? wink
                        I mean, they would have built it with overload.

                        In order for the upper edge of the Retvizan's main armor belt to be level with the water, it would have to undergo a construction overload of approximately 2000 tons.

                        In order for the upper edge of the main armor belt of the Tsarevich to be level with the water, a construction overload of ~1100-1200 tons would be sufficient.

                        It's clear that we took the wrong project as the basis for the Borodino-class battleships, in order to then overload the Borodinos with construction work. wink
                        And after your attempts to insert the Bayan CMU into the Garibaldians, I am not at all surprised by this.

                        Actually, it's not a Bayan crane manipulator, but a crane manipulator based on the Bayan with a design capacity of 17500 indicated horsepower.

                        My discussion with the esteemed Yuri ended with him admitting that this was possible with Norman boilers (from the Bogatyr crane manipulator). I didn't press the point further that it was also possible with Belleville boilers with superheaters, using a transverse layout rather than the longitudinal layout we adopted as the most convenient. In any case, you can find in my comments a diagram of how the British crammed as many as 48 Belleville boilers into the Powerful's boiler rooms, with a boiler room length even shorter than the one the cruiser Rossiya only managed with 32 Belleville boilers.
                        There is essentially only one obstacle: the entire project will have to be redone.

                        The Italians redesigned the "entire" crane propulsion system for the Garibaldi-class cruisers four times: 1. Fire-tube boilers 2. 16 Belleville water-tube boilers 3. 24 Nikloss water-tube boilers 4. 24 Belleville water-tube boilers 5. Fire-tube boilers again, but with a higher design power. No matter, the Italian designers didn't die from it.
                        Consumption increased due to damaged pipes, which Retvizan wasn't immune to.

                        Do you want to prove that Retvizan would not have had even ~2000 tons of its original full coal reserve to reach Vladivostok from Cape Shantung with two damaged pipes?
                        And yes, the fact that the Tsarevich had his own shortcomings with the Retvizan machines doesn’t make things any better.

                        So Retvizan was already the best. The best battleship of the Russo-Japanese War, according to Balakin. wink
                        Is it true that the Petropavlovsk had completely different turret installations?

                        Please report the error in his article to the esteemed Alexander Vasilyevich Kislitsin. aleks.k.44-40@yandex.ru
                        And by the way, "Poltava" and "Sevastopol" also fired more 152mm shells per barrel in the ZhM than "Retvizan"


                        https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2016-11/1480162764_2_7.jpg

                        "Sevastopol" fired the least amount of 6" shells, and "Peresvet" fired the most, 2,5 times more than "Sevastopol".

                        Will you draw any conclusions?
                        As if our ships with casemates could fire back any better...

                        Well, for example, in the battle in the Yellow Sea, Peresvet fired its 6" caliber better than anyone else.

                        And this despite the fact that it could only fire 5 6" guns on board, and three of them were temporarily out of action.

                        https://keu-ocr.narod.ru/Peresvet/chap04.html
                        Colleague, it's your will, but this verbosity has tired me out.

                        Yes, I see. Your objections have become irrelevant, just so I'll get tired and stop answering.
                      11. 0
                        27 May 2026 14: 50
                        As a result, a fleet of four brand-new battleships headed for the Tsushima Strait, ideally suited to be defeated in an artillery battle under a hail of 6-8" shells—shells that would render our ships barely able to fire back, incapacitated, flaming ruins. After all, the Japanese had learned in the Battle of the Yellow Sea that they couldn't achieve a decisive victory with slow, methodical fire from 10-12" guns at long ranges, and in the Battle of the Korea Strait, that 6-8" guns could completely disable even enemy armored ships. As a result, in the upcoming battle with Rozhdestvensky's squadron, the Japanese were prepared to make full use of their 6-8" guns, including their rapid fire.

                        It was precisely this rate of fire of the average 6" caliber that, no matter how hard you try, our newest turret battleships, for "technical reasons," could not, quite predictably, demonstrate.
                      12. +2
                        27 May 2026 04: 30
                        During the torpedo attack on the first night of the war, these bulkheads were of no help.

                        It was precisely in this place that the anti-tank missile system helped, since it was not penetrated or damaged due to the large distance from the side.
                        If a hit had occurred opposite the MKU, the small distance from the side to the anti-tank missile system would most likely have resulted in damage (at a minimum).
                      13. +1
                        27 May 2026 15: 17
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        It was precisely in this place that the anti-tank missile system helped, since it was not penetrated or damaged due to the large distance from the side.

                        The ship took on 2000 tons of water. Was it the torpedo bulkhead that helped?

                        You have a misconception that "it was not punctured/damaged."

                        "The deck's transition unit (with a smooth 90° bend) into the anti-mine bulkhead (2 meters from the side) was original, but not entirely successful. Its weak point, as experience on the first day of the war showed, was the flat horizontal 20mm-thick bulkhead (at the level of the lower armor shelf), which connected the armored bulkhead to the side at this level. On the Tsarevich, a torpedo explosion pierced it, allowing water to spread over the armored deck."

                        Melnikov, Rafail Mikhailovich "The Squadron Battleship "Tsarevich": Through Two Wars and a Revolution" Moscow: Eksmo, 2017, p. 192
                      14. +1
                        28 May 2026 03: 00
                        You have a misconception that "it was not punctured/damaged."

                        "The deck's transition unit (with a smooth 90° bend) into the anti-mine bulkhead (2 meters from the side) was original, but not entirely successful. Its weak point, as experience on the first day of the war showed, was its flat...
                        Melnikov, Rafail Mikhailovich

                        It's not my fault, but Rafail Mikhailovich's. Where the torpedo struck, there was a classic junction between the deck slope and the lower edge of the armor belt, and an equally classic vertical anti-tank missile defense system extending all the way to the deck.
                      15. +1
                        28 May 2026 09: 51
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        This is not my mistake, but Rafail Mikhailovich’s.

                        Okay, dear Yuri, I admit that Rafail Mikhailovich was mistaken.

                        https://topwar.ru/166338-retvizan-vs-cesarevich-ili-a-pochemu-ne-kramp.html

                        "The Tsarevich took on up to 2,000 tons of water, and its maximum list reached 18 degrees. At the same time, according to calculations by the port's chief naval engineer, R.R. Svirsky, and the French engineer Coudreau, an additional half-degree increase in list was sufficient to capsize the battleship. A vigorous counter-flooding of nine compartments at once, carried out just before the point of loss of stability, helped avoid disaster."

                        Is this also false information?

                        And please point out Rafail Mikhailovich's mistakes (if any) in this quote:

                        "At the moment of the explosion, the Tsarevich, listing to starboard (the roll of ships of this type was once again evident), then began to list dangerously to port. Despite the commander's immediate order to flood the starboard aft passages, the list increased uncontrollably. It reached 16° and continued to increase.

                        It turned out that draining the flooded compartments was impossible due to the failure of the bilge turbine drives, and anti-roll flooding, due to a peculiarity of the French design, was not immediately effective. The compartments lacked the standard pipelines and sluice gates, making the entire operation possible only with the help of temporarily connected fire hoses. It was then that the bilge engineer supervising the work, P.A. Fedorov, immediately made a decision that would save the ship. He ordered the flooding of not just three compartments, as permitted by the standard system, but nine at once. The well-trained bilge petty officers handled the emergency brilliantly, connecting fire hoses to the sluice gates in the engine and boiler rooms.

                        Working in desperate conditions—in cramped compartments, at a severe list, and in near darkness (the lights suddenly went out)—they managed to add water, create a sufficient anti-rolling moment, and halt the list at a nearly fatal 18°. The ship began to slowly right itself. Just as energetically, P.A. Fedorov managed to isolate the water ingress into the battleship's aft compartments. Bilge Master Petrukhov promptly reported water leaking from the 229mm bypass pipe into the hold of the underturret compartment of the 152mm gun turret, and P.A. Fedorov immediately identified the cause: damage to the clinker.

                        Having quickly gathered a wide variety of handy materials—blankets, pillows, and bulwarks—the engineer and petty officer descended into the hold and managed to stop the leak before the electric lights suddenly went out throughout the ship. This, as it soon became clear, was due to water rushing into the cylinders of the dynamo drive motors as the ship's list increased. They had to return in pitch darkness, navigating by touch and the sound of voices coming from a distant hatch. On P.A. Fedorov's orders, the 50-ton bilge pump was immediately activated, and the compartment began to empty. On the way to the commander, the engineer noticed a broken control chain from the valve for flooding the middle 152mm ammunition magazine. The thoughtless (on orders from a senior officer) flooding of the magazine, which was only detrimental to the ship, was stopped. The cleat was shut off, and the bilge pump was activated. Fire hoses had to be used to pump out the water here too. The list began to decrease.

                        The heroes of the ship's rescue were the hold mechanic P.A. Fedorov and his excellent specialists—hold section masters Petrukhov, Buyanov, and Lyubashevsky—and their assistants Polkovnikov, Fishburg, Potsata, Dorofeyev, and Mikhailenko. The ship's hold service organization and its personnel honorably withstood the first harsh test of the war. The navy had worthy men even then.

                        Upon returning from the captain's office, they continued to battle the water that had filled the wardroom. It had seeped in through the loosely sealed artillery porticoes. Knocking on the sealed door, P.A. Fedorov determined that there was no water in the wardroom on the starboard side. The door was opened, and to check the port-side filler necks, they had to dive neck-deep into the icy water. The filler neck proved to be intact, and when the water was pumped out with fire hoses as the ship righted, it was discovered, as he had suspected, that the lower compartment of the steering gear compartment was not flooded.

                        The next steering compartment filled with water, and it was later determined that engineer Afinogen Zhukov died there. As the engine room orderly, he managed to reach his combat post in response to the alarm, as scheduled to repel a mine attack, and batten down the compartment door, but was unable to escape the instantly flooded steering compartment. By preventing the water from spreading, he thereby helped save the ship.
                      16. +1
                        28 May 2026 14: 58
                        Is this also false information?

                        We need to look at the Tses's stability diagram. Initially, I can say that the maximum heel of 18,5 degrees (the beginning of the stability diagram's slope) is very low; even the Borodino-class ships have a much higher heel (designed, of course).
                        There are no further errors, since nowhere is there any mention of damage to the PMP or the mythical (specifically at the site of the explosion) "flat horizontal lintel (at the level of the shelf of the lower armor belt) 20 mm thick."
                      17. 0
                        25 May 2026 19: 56
                        The Tsarevich would have continued to take on water and most likely exhausted its buoyancy. The Retvizan would have capsized long before exhausting its buoyancy.

                        Read how the Retvizan would have continued to take on water and most likely exhausted its buoyancy. The Tsarevich would have capsized long before exhausting its buoyancy.

                        People tend to be wrong.
                      18. +1
                        27 May 2026 12: 45
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        There were other lifting mechanisms. On the Poltava-class turrets manufactured by the Obukhov Shipyard, the vertical angles range from -5 to +15 degrees. On deck turrets, the vertical angles range from -6 to +20 degrees. Turrets of subsequent designs also range from -6 to +20 degrees.

                        Uh ...
                        The earliest 6" OSZ tower units were significantly different from those produced at the Putilov and Metallichesky plants. They proved unsuccessful, and their production was abandoned. A distinctive feature of the OSZ units was that the rotating table was cylindrical, not elliptical as in other balanced units, but the axis was shifted back relative to the feed pipe axis.

                        The towers housed Canet machines on a central pin with the rotary mechanism removed. High voltage is manual only. High voltage is from an electric motor or manually.

                        https://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/MK/1997_02/17.htm
                        As for the Poltavas, they were truly different, because the casemates contained guns on mounts with a side pintle.
                        But on the Retvizan and Tsesar they were with a central
                      19. +1
                        27 May 2026 16: 02
                        Let me repeat, the Poltavas had an elevation angle of +15 degrees, not +20 degrees. Are you willing to bet that they had the same elevation arcs as the Canet casemate/deck mounts? And the elevation angle was limited by the barrel resting against the upper edge of the turret embrasure armor?

                        I will also add that the load on the elevating arc when firing at an elevation angle of +15 degrees was clearly "somewhat different" than at the maximum elevation angle of +20 degrees of deck and casemate installations, which we had to fire on in battles during the Russo-Japanese War and watch as "the teeth crumble."

                        In general, the turrets of the Poltava-class battleships never failed due to chipping of the teeth of the lifting arcs.

                        At the same time, damage to the 6" turrets occurred during the battle in the Yellow Sea. And not even as a result of hits to the turrets themselves.

                        On "Sevastopol":

                        "A shell that struck the armour near the starboard aft 152mm turret disabled the electrical ammunition feed and had to be fed manually through the upper deck, causing a large number of shrapnel wounds."

                        On Poltava:

                        http://www.navy.su/navybook/lutonin/index.html

                        "Two 12-inch shells hit the battery deck under 6-inch turret No. 1, but bags of coal were placed in the corridor around the turret and the effect of the shell explosions was significantly weakened, the hole in the plating was huge, but the fragments were held back by the coal and the traverse we had made earlier - there were no casualties in the battery, the guns were not damaged. But still, these two shells inflicted heavy damage on us. The pressure of the inch-thick gases pressed the deck near the turret down, the pulley of the feed winch attached to it in the living deck was broken, and the latter had to be carried out only by hand, one cartridge and one bomb at a time. In addition, the bent deck brought together two rims between which the vertical rollers move, the turret jammed, and its rotation was limited to only 2,5 degrees. Fortunately, this happened at the "The time when the turret was abeam, and it could fire at the enemy until the end of the battle on the 28th. The turret commander, Warrant Officer Pchelnikov, and Junior Mechanic Tolmachev, taking control of the work battalion, rushed under terrible fire to repair the damage. They hacked at the bent sheets of the turret balcony's plating with chisels, but the turret stubbornly refused to rotate; the damage was in the wrong place, and it was only in Artur that we were able to fix it."

                        On later towers, VN electric motors.
                      20. 0
                        27 May 2026 16: 07
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        In general, the turrets of the Poltava-class battleships have never failed due to chipping of the teeth of the lifting arcs.

                        Which is what I've been telling you for more than one day now))
                        Tower installations In this sense were more reliable.
                        And yes. All sources say the only difference between the two machines was the lack of horizontal aiming. And yes, the limited angles could be due to the size of the embrasures.
                        The fact that they had their own shortcomings does not change this fact.
                        That's it, colleague, I've already said goodbye. hi
                      21. 0
                        27 May 2026 21: 07
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        In this sense, turret installations were more reliable.

                        The barrels of turret mounts also never exploded from intense firing (later, a version of the barrel “fastened to the muzzle” was even released), because turret mounts could not withstand intense firing.

                        Let's also include this as an advantage of tower installations?

                        The deck/casemate installations developed so many flaws, with their barrels exploding and their lifting mechanisms breaking. New barrels and lifting mechanisms had to be designed.

                        "For 152/45 mm guns, fastened to the muzzle, MZ specially designed a mount on a central pin. The lifting mechanism is screw-type. The elevation angle is -6°, +25°. The elevation angle is 360°."

                        All sources write that the machines differed only in the absence of horizontal guidance.

                        "All sources" state that the elevation angle of the OSZ turret mounts of the earliest production models was 15 degrees instead of 20, while maintaining manual elevation. This places different loads on the elevation arcs and pinions when firing at the maximum elevation angle available to the mount.

                        Later mounts had electric elevation drives. It's self-evident to me that the elevation mechanisms there were different from those of mounts with manual elevation.
                      22. 0
                        28 May 2026 00: 18
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Which is what I've been telling you for more than one day now))
                        In this sense, turret installations were more reliable.

                        The most reliable design was the 6" Kane casemate mount, with a central pintle and a barrel bolted to the muzzle and a screw-type elevation mechanism. Naturally, these were produced after the Russo-Japanese War.
                        All sources write that the machines differed only in the absence of horizontal guidance.

                        Have you noticed that historians write that during the war, the lifting arches were replaced with more durable ones, without replacing the machines themselves? We're not talking about the machines themselves, but about the VN mechanisms on these machines.

                        What are you trying to prove, that the arches were strong enough? That's not true. The arches were replaced. Then the entire lifting mechanism design was changed to a screw-type one.

                        Let me reiterate, the Poltava turrets were equipped with manual lifting mechanisms with an elevation angle of +15 degrees. They were mounted on the same machines. The Tsarevich also had turrets with electric lifting mechanisms. Apparently, you've somehow decided that all of them used the same lifting arcs, which broke in the deck and casemate mounts, but not in the turret mounts. Seriously, are you going to insist that all of them used the same lifting arcs, the same design, and the same grade of steel? And it doesn't matter what the lifting angles were, whether they were manual or not, or that the Metal Plant turrets actually had a screw-type lifting mechanism, not a sector-type one. The same arcs and that's it?
                        That's it, colleague, I've already said goodbye.

                        Well, all the best.
                    2. 0
                      25 May 2026 11: 50
                      The Retvizan's design flaws were relatively easy to correct through upgrades and improvements. Completely eliminating the Tsarevich's insufficient combat stability was impossible simply by cutting away the archaic topsails and installing longitudinal watertight bulkheads in the battery (which was never done due to "lack of funds"), and then later sealing the 75mm battery ports. It was simply impossible to completely eliminate the shortcomings of the "outdated" architecture, with its steep freeboard and cramped living decks. Projects to re-arm the Tsarevich with 6" to 8" guns promised such a volume of structural modifications and such a cost that they were simply forgotten in our country. The Japanese, however, rearmed the Oryol, which was captured and renamed Iwami, with 8" guns... in casemates (bow, stern), or simply with anti-splinter shields (middle):

                      "Instead of twelve 6" guns in six turrets, the Japanese installed six single 8" guns on the main deck (see diagram). The sides above the main armor belt over a large portion of the ship's length were redesigned from bottle-shaped in plan to almost vertical, as on other Japanese battleships. The height of the funnels was reduced by approximately 20 feet.

                      Iwami originally carried twelve 12-pounder guns on her gun deck, and when fully loaded the lower edge of the gun ports did not rise more than 9 feet above the water. During her reconstruction these ports were eliminated, and with the exception of the aft ports for two 12-pounders, there are now no gun ports below the upper deck. Iwami's armament consists of four 12-inch, six 8-inch, twenty 12-pounder, twenty 3-pounder, and six 1-pounder guns.

                      The Japanese have undoubtedly succeeded in transforming a bulky and ungainly-looking ship, possessing several of the most undesirable features of a warship, into a sleek, elegant vessel that can be considered a thoroughly modern ship of its class. Iwami's speed is equal to that achieved during sea trials, that is, 18 knots. As Mr. Tsunetaro informed us, the cost of reconstructing the Orel was three million yen.


                      By the way, the yen to ruble exchange rate back then was approximately one to one.

                      At "Khizen" such a volume of deficiencies elimination was not required:

                      https://libking.ru/books/military-weapon/552927-29-aleksandr-belov-bronenostsy-yaponii.html

                      "Foreign sources claim the ship was the finest of the Japanese trophies, citing as evidence the fact that no work was actually required other than the removal of the battle tops. Of course, this claim is debatable, but the Iwami did undergo a more thorough rebuild. Another issue is that the Retvizan was built using meticulously thought-out technology and, in terms of its casemate-style placement of medium artillery, was closer to existing Japanese battleships. Later, in 1916, neither the Iwami nor the Hizen were among the battleships sold to Russia."

                      I don't understand the group of supposedly knowledgeable comrades in matters of naval technology during the Russo-Japanese War who at one point tried to tell the general public online that Russian shells were good. These same comrades occasionally tell the general public that the Tsarevich design, which served as the prototype for the Borodino-class battleships lost at Tsushima, was good, better than the Retvizan. The Tsarevich was undoubtedly better than the domestic Peresvets, but the design, let's be honest, was a failure (like almost everything French at the time). And while the glaring problems with aiming and the fumes fumes of the SC turret crews could have been somewhat remedied by introducing compressed air purging of the barrels and the later-invented Jenny couplings, the problems with the SC turrets' rate of fire, the cramped living decks, and combat unsinkability were practically incorrigible. In Japan, they largely corrected these flaws on the Iwami by removing the turrets. In Russia, they corrected them on the Tsarevich and Slava. Following the principle of traditional "economy," design flaw corrections were minimal, focusing on those that could be fixed relatively inexpensively and those that simply could not be left uncorrected.
                      In the neighboring thread I listed the disadvantages of two-gun turrets.
                      And the Garibalians with the Asamoids also have ammo in their towers.

                      Will you write about the percentage of 8" and 10" hits at Tsushima from the flawed turrets of the Asamoids and Garibaldi?

                      The main drawback of the domestic twin-gun turrets on the Andrei Pervozvanny was the weight of the turret mounts, ~203 tons, approximately 46 tons heavier than the single-gun turrets on the Bayan.

                      I hope you won't write that it was impossible to design and manufacture similar twin-gun 8" turrets for armored cruisers of the Russian Imperial Navy at the end of the 20th century?
                      I have no more questions.

                      I have some questions for those supposedly knowledgeable people online promoting the Tsarevich as the technically superior battleship of the Russian Imperial Navy and the best prototype for mass production at Russian shipyards. The main one is, why are they trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the "civilian population" who are still interested in the Russo-Japanese War but have stopped reading long-form books? wink
                      Regarding Melnikov. If I'm not mistaken, after all these years, in one monograph (was Rurik the first?) he mentions that turrets fire faster than deck and casemate guns.

                      "Rurik Was the First" was my go-to book for a while. Melnikov doesn't have that. Your memory has failed you. If you insist it did, please provide a quote.
                      1. +1
                        25 May 2026 12: 59
                        Somehow you're measuring all this clumsily... The Tsarevich emerged from the battle in the Yellow Sea in much better condition than the Retvizan... Although I admit I like the Retvizan better...
                      2. 0
                        25 May 2026 13: 55
                        Quote: Ragnar
                        "Tsesarevich" emerged from the battle in the Yellow Sea in much better condition than "Retvizan"...

                        If you forget about the broken pipes and steering, then yes)
                      3. +1
                        26 May 2026 07: 35
                        The hydraulic steering wheel in the conning tower, not the controls... And the pipes... they're everywhere...
                      4. 0
                        25 May 2026 13: 56
                        Quote: Ragnar
                        Somehow you measure all this clumsily... "Tsesarevich" emerged from the battle in the Yellow Sea in much better condition than "Retvizan".

                        You have made some unsubstantiated objections.

                        First, please clarify how the Tsarevich's condition after the battle was significantly better than Retvizan's. Please provide your reasons for this.

                        Secondly, Retvizan went into battle with about 500 tons of water in its holds. "An iron sheet was placed over the hole from the outside, but it didn't completely cover it. Some of the water was pumped out, but 250 tons of water remained in the damaged compartments; the same amount had to be taken into the starboard compartments to correct the list."

                        When the Tsarevich took on even less water in battle, he ceased to be able to steer properly and therefore fell behind the squadron, which was retreating back to Port Arthur and had fallen into "complete confusion":

                        https://military.wikireading.ru/17116

                        "Meanwhile, the Tsarevich, despite the heroic efforts of the crew, stubbornly refused to obey. With each attempt to shift the rudder, it lurched sharply to the side, each time deviating by up to 8 points, or 90°. "The battleship sailed, constantly describing arcs, first to the right, then to the left," confirmed this observation by the senior flag officer, Lieutenant M.A. Kedrov. This was explained by the battleship's inherent yaw, which was especially exacerbated by the trim by the bow. Why they couldn't have figured out how to correct this trim by pumping water or taking on ballast (as was done in the same battle on the Peresvet and as all knowledgeable commanders did)—history has not preserved the answer to this question."

                        As darkness fell, the Tsarevich began to lag behind due to continued yaw and a drop in boiler thrust. Her aft funnel was thoroughly "opened" by a shell explosion, but the damage was significantly less than on the Peresvet. She nearly lost two of her three funnels, yet still left the Tsarevich far behind. This phenomenon remained uninvestigated by Admiral I.M. Dikov's commission.

                        I would like to note that the “condition of Retvizan”, including the trim by the bow, did not prevent this battleship from returning to Port Arthur first.

                        "Peresvet", having abandoned the idea of ​​a breakthrough, led the ships that followed it (without "Retvizan", which had gone ahead alone) to Port Arthur."

                        The differences in handling between these damaged ships are striking.
                      5. +1
                        26 May 2026 08: 06
                        Good morning. Let me explain...
                        Firstly, the Tsarevich retained the main purpose for which it was designed – primary-caliber artillery and the ability to use it. The Retvizan had major problems with this…
                        Secondly: Unlike the Retvizan, the Tsarevich’s nose didn’t droop, and it didn’t force us to rush headlong into Port Arthur…
                        Thirdly: The problem of "yaw" was solved quite simply - its entire supply had to be immediately "overboard", because when it ran out naturally, the "Tsarevich" somehow managed to reach the Blue-Green Island, despite being thrown from side to side by as many as 8 points, aggravated by the trim by the bow...
                      6. 0
                        27 May 2026 00: 13
                        Quote: Ragnar
                        Let me give you my reasons... Firstly: the Tsarevich retained the main purpose for which it was created – primary-caliber artillery and the ability to use it. The Retvizan had major problems with this...

                        I'll counter that. The condition of a ship's artillery is not the condition of the ship itself.

                        Despite the holes and several hundred pounds of water in its holds, the Retvizan maintained good maneuverability, and its speed was such that it was the first battleship to reach Port Arthur (despite the fact that before the battle, it was believed that the ship could not exceed 13 knots, and that the Retvizan's speed would determine the progress of the entire squadron). After the fatal hit to the conning tower, the Tsarevich's ship went into an uncontrollable spin and was forced to halt. Control was partially restored only after 20-25 minutes. At this point, the ship could only move "slalom-style." With such damage, the condition of the ship's artillery was irrelevant. Only the Japanese's lack of initiative at the time allowed Captain 2nd Rank D.P. Shumov, who was in command of the battleship at the time, to at least try to follow the squadron, and then, with the darkness, to disappear at sea from both his own and enemy's view.

                        Now about the poor condition of the Retvizan artillery after the battle.

                        1. The fact that the Retvizan's bow main battery turret was jammed is not a design flaw of the ship, but a design flaw of the turret itself. The Tsarevich's main battery turrets were of exactly the same design, with the same design flaws.

                        2. The weak and crumbling teeth of the lifting arcs and gears on the Canet 6" deck and casemate guns were again NOT a ship defect. This is a flaw in the manual vertical aiming mechanisms of the Canet 6" deck and casemate gun mounts. Incidentally, this was a quickly remedied flaw. It wasn't identified before the war because the guns were rarely fired. For a similar reason, the design flaws of the 6" turrets, where crews were poisoned by propellant gases after firing a few shots due to poor ventilation and the lack of compressed air, were also not identified. The problem of crumbling lifting arc teeth was quickly resolved during the war.

                        https://samlib.ru/g/guk_k_s/mcm-7merypousilenijuflotadopolnennyj.shtml

                        In concluding the first part, it's worth recalling the most long-suffering ship of the VOK—the cruiser Bogatyr. After extensive repairs, the ship was recommissioned in June 1905.
                        This is partly due to the lengthy and complex repairs following the navigational accident, and partly due to design features. Some work has been carried out on it, including replacing the arches of the machine tool lifting mechanisms with more durable ones.

                        The 6" turret barrel blowdown system on the Tsarevich was finally installed only in 1913, if I remember correctly.
                        Secondly: Unlike the Retvizan, the Tsarevich’s nose didn’t droop, and it didn’t force us to rush headlong into Port Arthur…

                        I read the memoirs of E.N. Shchesnovich:

                        "I found the squadron lined up on its return course in the following order: Peresvet at the head, then Pobeda and Poltava. The other ships were in disarray, as shown on the diagram. I saw neither the admiral nor the commander on Peresvet, and assuming the admiral had been killed, I decided that it was my lot to lead the squadron. I took up position ahead of Peresvet and headed toward Artur. Judging from its appearance, I concluded that all the ships were so battered that they were unable to proceed to Vladivostok, and I decided that it would be best to use them to defend Artur rather than to break through to Vladivostok, which I considered impossible, and going to foreign ports was unworthy.
                        All the ships followed me."

                        There is no "drooping nose" as an explanation for why he decided to "lead the squadron" back to Port Arthur in the memoirs of the Retvizan commander.
                        The Tsarevich somehow managed to reach the Blue-Green Island, despite being tossed from side to side by as many as 8 points, aggravated by a trim by the bow...

                        So, you agree that the technical condition of the Tsarevich by the time the Japanese main forces passively ended the battle was much worse than that of the Retvizan? (specifically, the condition of the ship, not the ship's artillery.)

                        https://www.rulit.me/books/boj-28-iyulya-1904-goda-read-607154-70.html

                        "18.10–18.15. The battleship Tsarevich was yawing left and right on course, being controlled by its engines. The ship was listing to starboard and had a slight trim by the bow, which further impaired its control."

                        If a ship is "yawing" in real life, and then, "The shell didn't make a hole, but only dented the frame and tore out some rivets, which resulted in leakage and filling of two side corridors (upper and lower). A total of 153 tons of water entered." It lists 3 degrees and loses proper control of its engines—that's a ship of poor design.
                      7. 0
                        26 May 2026 08: 07
                        I'll note, however, that Retvizan's "condition," including a bow trim, didn't prevent this battleship from returning to Port Arthur first. It's a shame it didn't return to Vladivostok...
                      8. +1
                        26 May 2026 10: 43
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Secondly, Retvizan went into battle with about 500 tons of water in its holds.

                        Colleague, why did it carry that water? Maybe because it didn't have pumps in the outer compartments? And don't tell me this is an easy fix. Firstly, it wasn't that easy, and secondly, it was only after the war.
                      9. 0
                        26 May 2026 16: 57
                        Oh, Ivan, you've really touched a nerve... Secondly, the Retvizan went into battle with approximately 500 tons of water in its holds. "An iron sheet was placed over the breach from the outside, but it didn't completely cover it. Some of the water was pumped out, but 250 tons of water remained in the damaged compartments; the same amount had to be taken into the starboard compartments to correct the list."
                        I really hope these compartments were in the stern...
                      10. 0
                        26 May 2026 17: 01
                        If not, then where does the trim come from?
                      11. 0
                        27 May 2026 12: 23
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Colleague, why did he walk with this water?

                        Because the hole from the underwater hit by a 120mm shell was never fully sealed, and 250 tons of water simply couldn't be pumped out. Water was leaking through the unsealed hole. Another 250 tons of water were taken into the opposite compartments to correct the list. The volume of water that entered during the battle through the knocked-out porthole and the explosion-induced crack in the 2" armor simply wasn't even estimated in tons.

                        "... the shell hit the 2-inch armor at the waterline, in the bow of the ship, in the sick bay, the shell made such a gap in the armor that water from overboard freely penetrated into the ship and, when I went down after the first battle to inspect the damage, the water reached the threshold of the bulkhead of the bow turret compartment."

                        To pump out this water, it had to be drained into the hold. But what was the point, if "water from overboard was freely entering the ship" through a crack in the armor and a broken porthole? If you drain this water, more would immediately "freely" flood in.

                        The holes in the side had to be sealed before the water could be pumped out.

                        As I've already noted, all this water had little effect on the battleship's handling or speed. "Leading the squadron," Eduard Nikolaevich Shchensnovich, clearly having reconsidered his views on the frailty of existence after being concussed by a hot shrapnel shell to his abdomen (the shrapnel didn't even cause a wound), arrived at Port Arthur on the Retvizan, which he captained, significantly earlier than the other battleships in the squadron.
                      12. 0
                        27 May 2026 12: 38
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        But what's the point if "water from overboard was freely penetrating the ship" through a crack in the armor and a broken porthole?

                        Just get a patch, that's all you need to do.
                      13. 0
                        27 May 2026 20: 37
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Just get a patch, that's all you need to do.

                        The patch is applied only when there is no movement.

                        The battleship's commander was in such a hurry to "lead the squadron" to Port Arthur that he apparently had no time for a band-aid.

                        P.S. But cutting holes for portholes in 2" armor is of course evil, although it increased habitability.
                      14. +1
                        25 May 2026 15: 57
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        The Japanese, however, rearmed the Oryol, which was captured and renamed Iwami, with 8" guns... in casemates (bow, stern),

                        Don't try to pass off necessity as virtue. They simply didn't have the necessary number of serviceable turrets, and they didn't want to bother producing them. So they used the ones they had for the Tango.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        tell the general public that Russian shells were good.

                        I don't really understand what this is about?
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        The Tsarevich project of the Borodino-class battleships was good, better than the Retvizan

                        I truly believe the Caesar's combat resilience is superior to that of the Retvizan. And if the latter's clones had gotten to Tsushima, it would have been over much sooner.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Will you write about the percentage of 8" and 10" hits at Tsushima from the flawed turrets of the Asamoids and Garibaldi?

                        You know as well as I do that this is impossible, due to the fact that it is impossible to count the number of hits on Russian ships.
                        You can go to the JM. The consumption of 8" shells fired by the Garibaldi and Yakumo with Asama is about 600. Three confirmed hits.
                        The only 10" Kasuga fired 33 shells and also scored 3 hits.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        I hope you will NOT write that similar twin-gun 8" guns were used for armored cruisers of the Russian Imperial Navy.

                        It's possible. But in the Bayan design, this isn't necessary, since increasing the number of barrels won't increase firepower.
                        Now, if it came to the promising project that Gribovsky wrote about (12000 tons, 21 knots, 4x2-203 and 12x1-152 with 152mm GBP), then it would be quite appropriate.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Your memory has failed you.

                        Approx.
                      15. 0
                        25 May 2026 21: 34
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Don't try to pass off necessity as virtue. They simply didn't have the necessary number of serviceable turrets, and they didn't want to bother producing them. So they used the ones they had for the Tango.

                        Why did they cut off the spar deck and redesign the freeboard, straightening it out to a "near vertical" "along a large portion of the ship's length"?

                        https://topwar.ru/255484-iz-orla-v-iwami-ili-borodinec-po-japonski.html

                        ...we recommend that those officers who would like us to model our future battleships on the French battleship La Patrie take this into consideration. And they should note that, during the reconstruction of the Oryol, the Japanese sought to eliminate precisely those elements and characteristics of the ship that recent critics of our navy would like to see in our battleships.
                        I don't really understand what this is about?

                        The fact is that there are supposedly knowledgeable people who have decided to argue about the technical prerequisites of Tsushima with everything that was written about these prerequisites both by specialists "working on the mistakes" back in the time of Nicholas II and in Soviet times.

                        We live in the postmodern era. Such attacks on the paradigms established in the modern era are, one might say, normal. Especially if postmodernity is seen as a rebellion against modernity. wink
                        I really believe that the combat stability of the Caesar is higher than that of the Retvizan.

                        Why do you think so? Provide your arguments.
                        You know as well as I do that this is impossible, due to the fact that it is impossible to count the number of hits on Russian ships.

                        No need to be precise. Estimates are enough.
                        You can go to ZhM. The consumption of 8" shells fired by the Garibaldi and Yakumo with Asama is about 600 pieces.

                        Are you using the numbers from this article by the respected Andrey?

                        https://topwar.ru/104474-boy-v-zheltom-more-28-iyulya-1904-g-chast-12-otstuplenie-knyazya-uhtomskogo.html

                        In fact, it states that 596 8" shells were fired by all 7 Japanese cruisers, three of which had deck-mounted single-gun 8" mounts.

                        So, according to the data from this article, the probability of hitting a 12" shell from a Japanese gun was no less than 9,45%, the only 10" shell was no less than 12, 12", 8" - 0,5%, 6" - 0,71%.

                        According to these statistics, the 10" single-gun turret is simply superb, and the twin-gun 8" turrets should have been replaced with single-gun turrets. And in general, the "diamond" arrangement of the turrets, as on French designs or the cruiser O'Higgins, is simply superb.

                        The only problem is that 51 hits were of an unknown caliber.

                        I believe that with such a data set, trying to analyze it to isolate the poor firing accuracy of the 8" twin-gun turrets of Japanese cruisers is practically pointless. It's not data, it's "digital noise."

                        But to prove that 8" turrets fired worse than casemate and deck-mounted 6" guns, the hit statistics for the Rossiya and Gromoboi would be quite suitable. Unfortunately, I can't immediately recall where the hits on the Rossiya and Gromoboi were broken down by caliber.
                        It's possible. But in the Bayan design, this isn't necessary, since increasing the number of barrels won't increase firepower.

                        The problem is that the MTC in 1897 clearly cared little about the Bayan's firepower compared to that of the Asama and Tokiwa, which were already under construction. The MTC apparently intended to fight not a specific enemy, but some abstract one. Otherwise... by 1897, the Spanish had already demonstrated that, within the displacement limit set by the MTC, it was possible to build an armored cruiser with two 10-inch turrets and at least six 6-inch guns in a broadside. But the MTC was looking at the British-built Esmeralda and O'Higgins, not the Italian-built cruisers Argentina was acquiring to counter them.
                      16. +1
                        26 May 2026 11: 01
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        No need to be precise. Estimates are enough.

                        No need for judgment. And no need for AI either.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Are you using the numbers from this article by the respected Andrey?

                        Do you have anything better?
                        As far as I remember, Polomoshnov’s figures do not contradict him.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        According to these statistics, the 10" single-gun turret is simply superb, and instead of two-gun 8" turrets, single-gun turrets should have been installed.

                        Especially considering that a 10" projectile is 2 - 2.5 times heavier than an 8" projectile, carries more explosives and, accordingly, causes more damage.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        The only problem is that 51 hits were of an unknown caliber.

                        Just don't prove that they were all eight inches)))
                        It may well be that most of them are small-caliber.
                        In any case, this data is better than "estimated" speculation.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Otherwise... by 1897 the Spaniards had already demonstrated

                        If the Spaniards demonstrated anything, it was the complete incompetence of ships of this class.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        But the ITC was looking at the British-built Esmeralda and O'Higgins, and not at the Italian-built cruisers that Argentina was acquiring to defeat the Esmeralda and O'Higgins.

                        And then the Chileans ordered "vacanto-occupanto" and the super-duper cruisers turned into pumpkins.
                        In general, it would be more appropriate to develop the Peresvet class. Strengthen the armor, increase the speed, and create a fast battleship.
                        Incidentally, after the Russian Navy, many did just that. We built the Rurik-2, the Japanese built the Tsukuba and Ibuki, the Italians built the Amalfi, and it all ended with battlecruisers.
                        The Germans, it is true, built the Blucher, but I don’t think it was out of great intelligence.
                      17. 0
                        27 May 2026 11: 54
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Do you have a better one? As far as I remember, Polomoshnov's figures don't contradict his.

                        You presented a hypothesis that the twin 8" turrets on Japanese cruisers were extremely inaccurate, and certain statistics from the Battle of the Yellow Sea seem to support this hypothesis. The implication of this hypothesis for you is that the installation of twin turrets at that time did not increase the ships' firepower.

                        I will present the following counter-hypothesis. Because, in my opinion, a significant percentage of Japanese shell explosions, although apparently smaller than in the case of domestic pyroxylin shells, resulted from incomplete detonation of the explosives ("smoke, sometimes black, sometimes bright yellow," yellow traces of unreacted explosives at the points of explosion), determining the caliber of the exploding shells, unless their warheads, large fragments, etc., could be found based on the degree of destruction of the ships' unarmored parts, was extremely inaccurate. It was especially difficult to distinguish between impacts by 8" and 6" shells, because a 6" shell with a fully detonated explosive caused greater destruction at the point of impact than an 8" shell with an incompletely detonated explosive.
                        Therefore, an attempt to statistically confirm the low accuracy of the twin-gun 8" turrets of cruisers of that time based on the statistics of hits "disassembled by caliber" from the Russo-Japanese War is working with information noise.
                        The hypothesis about the poor firing accuracy of 8" twin-gun turrets could be confirmed by an analysis of the Japanese navy's firing practice, where the percentage of hits for various calibers was recorded not at all by the degree of destruction of the target by the explosion upon impact (for example, that island (or islands? I don't remember) on which the Japanese were practicing). But since the hypothesis is not mine, I believe that the burden of proving the extremely low firing accuracy of the 8" twin-gun turrets of that time and publishing the technical justification for this low accuracy of 8" twin-gun turrets in particular (then questions would immediately arise about the firing accuracy of twin-gun turrets of other calibers, starting with, damn it, 12" twin-gun turrets) lies with the side that put forward the hypothesis.
                        I simply don't believe this hypothesis is correct. Specifically, I don't believe that 8" guns fired from twin turrets demonstrated a lower hit rate in battles during the Russo-Japanese War than 6" guns fired from casemate and deck-mounted guns.
                        I am absolutely certain that the 6" and 8" guns mounted in turrets at that time demonstrated a significantly lower maximum rate of fire than the same 6" and 8" guns in deck and casemate artillery mounts. This problem was not resolved in the Russian Navy even by World War I. The 8"/50 guns in the more advanced turret mounts of the cruiser Rurik demonstrated a maximum rate of fire of 3 rounds per minute. The same 8"/50 guns mounted in casemate mounts on the Evstafiy-class battleships demonstrated a maximum rate of fire of about 4 rounds per minute.
                        Especially considering that a 10" projectile is 2 - 2.5 times heavier than an 8" projectile, carries more explosives and, accordingly, causes more damage.

                        No, the 10" turret mount of the Kasuga cruiser, by the way, due to the maximum elevation angle of 35 degrees, was the longest-range Japanese gun of the Russo-Japanese War. It performed very well in the battles of that war, and given the level of artillery development of that time, such a gun was apparently optimal for armored cruisers at that time, surpassing both the British 234 mm single-gun turret guns and the single and twin 203 mm guns, not to mention the French 194 mm turret guns. Another thing is that, while I disagree with the hypothesis about the extremely low firing accuracy of twin-gun turret mounts compared to single-gun mounts, I believe that twin-gun 10" turrets were better for armored cruisers than single-gun turrets at that time. But everything that was attempted at that time with twin 10" turrets turned out not to be an armored cruiser, but a second-class battleship—both the domestic Peresvet-class ships and the Swiftsure and Triumph, designed for Chile but added to the British Navy. The American Tennessee-class armored cruisers and the British-built Rurik II, both with 10" twin turrets, entered service after the Russo-Japanese War, when the advent of the 21-knot Dreadnought class and the start of battlecruiser construction instantly rendered all armored cruisers obsolete as a class.
                        Overall, the Garibaldi-class cruisers with 10" turrets were, in my opinion, the best armored cruisers in the world for limited and closed naval theaters in the decade from 1896 to 1905, despite the fact that these cruisers demonstrated their claimed 20 knots at full speed at best during sea trials. The combat history of the Kasuga cruiser, with its single 10" single-gun turret, confirms this.
                        Otherwise... by 1897 the Spaniards had already demonstrated

                        I think you understood that I meant Italian shipbuilders. :D
                        And then the Chileans ordered "vacanto-occupanto" and the super-duper cruisers turned into pumpkins.

                        First, this happened (the commissioning of the Swiftsure-class battleships, which were never purchased by Chile) in 1904.
                        Secondly, the very fact that, in order to attempt to "turn into a pumpkin" the four armored cruisers Argentina had at the time, with a normal displacement of 7,3-7,8 thousand tons, a project developed in the first half of the 1890s, had to be built at the beginning of the 20th century, two high-speed battleships with a normal displacement of almost 12 thousand tons - in itself is an indicator.
                        Thirdly, a hypothetical battle between armored squadrons, the Chilean consisting of: "Constitucion", "Libertad", "O'Higgins" and "Esmeralda", and the Argentine with six cruisers of the "Garibaldi" class... I believe the side that demonstrated balls of steel and better shooting would win, and not this table superiority of the Chilean "Constitucion", "Libertad" diluted by the table weakness of "O'Higgins" and "Esmeralda". wink
                        In general, it would be more appropriate to develop the Peresvet class. Strengthen the armor, increase the speed, and create a fast battleship.

                        By installing 30 Belleville boilers in the Peresvet ships, we couldn't produce 19-knot battlecruisers. Our design and construction school clearly needed foreign assistance. But in my opinion, it certainly wasn't French. French naval shipbuilding, both conceptually and technically, had clearly gone "off track" by that time, and if it wasn't at the forefront of the world, it was only in certain technical elements. Not to mention, the French practically used our money to master Krupp armor production technology, and the critical engine components of the Tsarevich were made of cast iron, not steel.
                      18. 0
                        27 May 2026 12: 36
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        You have presented a hypothesis according to which the twin 8" turrets of Japanese cruisers were extremely inaccurate

                        If I remember correctly, I wrote “inferior” due to technical reasons that were insurmountable at the time.
                        Plus, they were slower firing, which you agree with.
                        Well, and I hope you won't object to the fact that the location of the bank in the tower is not the most optimal solution?
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        It is trivial that the 8"/50 guns in the more advanced turret mounts of the cruiser "Rurik" demonstrated a maximum rate of fire of 3 rounds per minute.

                        Colleague, given that even 6-inch deck mounts showed a real rate of fire of about 1 shot per minute, do they need more?
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        In general, the Garibaldi-class cruisers with 10" turrets were, in my opinion, the best armored cruisers in the world for limited and closed naval theaters in the decade from 1896 to 1905.

                        It seems the Italians themselves didn't think so, limiting themselves to just three cruisers of this type and (most likely) secretly blessing the Argentines for taking this pack of half-battleships for themselves. feel
                        However, it's better to discuss the combat qualities of the "Garibaldians" in future articles by my colleague Andrey. Especially since one has already been published.
                      19. 0
                        27 May 2026 17: 47
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        If I remember correctly, I wrote “inferior” due to technical reasons that were insurmountable at the time.
                        Plus, they were slower firing, which you agree with.

                        Yes, colleague, I certainly believe that twin-gun 8" turret mounts were somewhat less accurate than single-gun 8" turret or deck (casemate) mounts back then. And yes, for technical reasons, the maximum rate of fire (per barrel) of 8" turret mounts apparently never caught up with that of 8" deck and casemate mounts until the 1920s.

                        In turn, colleague, admit that 6" twin-gun turret mounts were also somewhat less accurate than single-gun 6" deck or casemate artillery mounts and, for technical reasons, were significantly inferior in rate of fire to 6" deck and casemate mounts.

                        And if you admit this, then how does the turret artillery of the Tsarevich compare to the casemate 6" artillery of the Retvizan - how is it less accurate and, for technical reasons, much slower in firing rate?

                        So what does the "Tsarevich" project look like then, with its heavily raked freeboard and reduced deck areas above the main armor for the sake of the firing angles of these very SC turrets and for the sake of saving upper weight for the installation of these turrets?

                        Already less technically justifiable?

                        Add to all this the low-mounted 75mm gun ports of the central battery in this very heavily inward-leaning freeboard, and the anti-torpedo longitudinal bulkheads, which, with their weight, “ate up” ~770 tons of displacement, forcing the abandonment of side coal pits and the supply of additional coal in these pits, which roughly corresponded to the weight of the anti-torpedo (“mine”) bulkheads.

                        And so it turns out that the battleship Lagan project already looks even less justified.

                        As a cherry on the cake, you can add the archaic two-tiered combat topsails with small-caliber cannons and machine guns (which were the first thing to be gotten rid of after the Russo-Japanese War), located higher than the single-tiered topsails on the battleship Retvizn - the cake is ready to be served.
                        Colleague, given that even 6-inch deck mounts showed a real rate of fire of about 1 shot per minute, do they need more?

                        At what points in the battle and in which fleet did 6" rapid-fire deck mounts show a maximum rate of fire of no more than 1 shot per minute?

                        "The actual rate of fire of the 152mm turrets was approximately 3 rounds per minute. Therefore, the placement of medium artillery in armored casemates at that time should be considered more successful." Krestyaninov V.Ya.
                        "The Battle of Tsushima, May 14-15 (27-28), 1905. St. Petersburg: Galeia Print, 1998, p. 93

                        I bet you won't find a single book that says 6" turrets would be "more successful" due to their rate of fire. wink

                        I'm back to the topic of "Tsarevich" vs. "Retvizan." wink

                        It seems the Italians themselves did not think so, limiting themselves to just three cruisers of this type.

                        You're aware, of course, that the Italians began building cruisers of this type for themselves, and they were constantly being bought up by foreign buyers. As a result, the Italian Navy received its first cruiser of this type only in 1901, and the third in 1905.

                        Italy was only able to retain the 6th, 7th, and 8th Garibaldi cruisers. Construction of the last of these, the Francesco Ferruccio, took place at the state shipyard in Venice, and its commissioning was delayed until mid-1905, by which time cruisers of this type were already considered completely obsolete.

                        A few additional details, and the understanding of the situation changes dramatically.

                        Do you think that the Italians should have built Garibaldi-class cruisers "for themselves" after 1905? wink

                        As I have already noted, the 21-knot Dreadnought and the 25-knot Invincible, laid down on February 5, 1906, made not just individual types of armored cruisers, but all armored cruisers as a class, completely obsolete.
                      20. 0
                        27 May 2026 18: 57
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        In terms of rate of fire, for technical reasons, they were significantly inferior to 6" deck and casemate installations.

                        Have I ever written anything to the contrary?))
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        So what does the "Tsarevich" project look like then, with its heavily raked freeboard and reduced deck areas above the main armor for the sake of the firing angles of these very SC turrets and for the sake of saving upper weight for the installation of these turrets?

                        The client wanted to fit within a 12000-ton displacement bast shoe. To accommodate this, the Franks used this very same blockage.
                        The question is, what did Crump sacrifice if the most advanced British industry at that time could only accommodate such performance characteristics of 15000 tons?
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Do you think that the Italians should have built Garibaldi-class cruisers "for themselves" after 1905?

                        I believe that even before that, it was only suitable for deeply third-rate navies like the Argentine. The Italians should have spent their money on something more sensible in 1899. Although this would have been sufficient against the Turks.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        A few additional details

                        Colleague, do you really think I haven’t read Kofman?

                        Well here again belay
                      21. 0
                        27 May 2026 20: 31
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        The client wanted to fit within a 12000-ton displacement bast shoe. To accommodate this, the Franks used this very same blockage.

                        In all the book sources I have read, this slope of the side on the French battleships and turret cruisers of that time is explained precisely by achieving increased angles of fire of the turrets and a reduction in the upper weight necessary in order to use the savings on the turrets.

                        So Lagan brought his French vision of a squadron battleship to St. Petersburg, not what the client wanted. The client wanted a battleship with casemate-mounted guns and medium-caliber guns, and refused Cramp's request to use the American battleship Iowa as a prototype, which, as is well known, had four 8" twin turrets in addition to two main gun turrets. But then Lagan rushed in, brought the design of his eight-turreted Muir et Mérilees, and... the client agreed to everything.
                        The question is, what did Crump sacrifice if the most advanced British industry at that time could only accommodate such performance characteristics of 15000 tons?

                        In fact, the "most advanced British industry" could not get away from guns with barrels fastened with wire, heavy barbette mounts of main battery guns with hydraulic aiming drives, and even for the "Mikasa" initially proposed Harvey armor.

                        As a result, the main armor belt on Retvizan had a full 229 mm thickness over a length of 78 meters, while on Mikasa, the same belt, with a stated thickness of 229 mm, reached its maximum thickness only for a length of 46,7 meters, tapering off beyond that. On Mikasa, the steam engines were designed to develop full power only with forced blast, while on Retvizan, they were not. The total coal capacity on Mikasa was 1,5 tons, while on Retvizan, it was over 2 tons.

                        But the Mikasa had 14 6" guns, while the Retvizan had only 12 6" guns. It would have been possible to mount 14, or maybe even all 16 6" SK guns on the Retvizan. But this would require a radial reduction in small-caliber artillery (the Retvizan had 24 47 mm and 8 × 37 mm guns, while the Mikasa only had 8 47 mm/43 and 4 and 47 mm/33) and install fewer than 6 torpedo tubes (the Mikasa had 4 457 mm torpedo tubes).

                        In general, "the most advanced British industry at the time" in a number of respects already demonstrated "traditional British conservatism," thanks to which "Mikasa" and "Retvizan" were approximately equal in combat capabilities, despite the Retvizan's displacement being approximately 2 tons smaller.
                        I believe that even before that, it was only suitable for deeply third-rate fleets like the Argentine.

                        The Japanese didn't think so and bought the generously built cruisers for Argentina, and then added these cruisers to the 1st combat squadron, where they were supposed to have no less to do in squadron battles with a thoughtful enemy (and not with an enemy: "Hit the head!") than battleships.
                        Colleague, do you really think I haven’t read Kofman?

                        Then I don't quite understand why you introduced the thesis into the discussion: "It seems the Italians themselves didn't think so, limiting themselves to just three cruisers of this type." Apparently, they wanted to see me being even more verbose. wink
                      22. 0
                        29 May 2026 12: 12
                        Italy was only able to retain the 6th, 7th, and 8th Garibaldi cruisers. Construction of the last of these, the Francesco Ferruccio, took place at the state shipyard in Venice, and its commissioning was delayed until mid-1905, by which time cruisers of this type were already considered completely obsolete.
                      23. 0
                        29 May 2026 12: 17
                        And the Japanese, who used them in the First Combat Detachment, also in 1905, were they great? Somehow, it doesn't fit between "super-duper" and completely obsolete?
              2. +1
                24 May 2026 12: 16
                Retvizan - 12,21 million rubles.
                "Tsesarevich" - 14,004 million rubles.

                In fact, - 12.254.699 rubles and 13.277.884 rubles.
                Your link is to a very old work by esteemed Stvolyarov, before more accurate information appeared in the "Ship List of 1904."
                1. +1
                  24 May 2026 23: 44
                  In the "Most Submissive Report on the Naval Department for 1897–1900"

                  Retvizan - 12,553,277 rubles.
                  Tsarevich - 14,004,286 rubles.

                  https://istmat.org/node/24955
                  1. 0
                    25 May 2026 04: 15
                    Quote: AlexanderA
                    In the "Most Submissive Report on the Naval Department for 1897–1900"

                    Retvizan - 12,553,277 rubles.
                    Tsarevich - 14,004,286 rubles.

                    https://istmat.org/node/24955

                    There are lies upon lies, look at the "Ship list of 1904."
                    1. 0
                      25 May 2026 23: 20
                      Dear Yuri, I honestly don't know the criteria by which the amounts in the "Most Submissive Report on the Naval Department for 1897-1900" are a lie, while the figures in the "Ship List of 1904" are true.

                      However, after reviewing the "Ship List," questions arose. Okay, so the cost of the Retvizan's mine armament—276,093 rubles—versus the Tsarevich's 127,162 rubles, a logical explanation can be found. After all, it has six torpedo tubes (four surface, two submerged) versus four torpedo tubes (two surface, two submerged). It carries more torpedo ammunition, and 45 minefields, while the Tsarevich only carries 20.

                      But why did the Retvizan's artillery cost 1,790,585 rubles, while the Tsarevich's only cost 1,118,494 rubles? Could the transportation of weapons from Russia to the US really have resulted in this much?

                      But if we consider only the cost of the ship without weapons, then for the Retvizan it is 9,450,000 rubles, while for the Tsarevich it is 11,355,000 rubles.

                      Without the cost of weapons, the "Tsarevich" is 1,9 million rubles, or 20% more expensive.

                      According to the "Most Submissive Report on the Naval Department for 1897-1900," the "Tsarevich" (assembled, so to speak, with weapons) is only 1,45 million rubles more expensive.

                      P.S. The main belt of the "Tsarevich" is 9,8" in the middle part and 6,3" - 6,7" at the ends - that's strong. :D
                      1. +1
                        26 May 2026 03: 48
                        But why did the Retvizan's artillery cost 1,790,585 rubles, while the Tsarevich's only cost 1,118,494 rubles? Could the transportation of weapons from Russia to the US really have resulted in this much?

                        Of course, transportation costs money, and certainly not 670 thousand rubles.
                        The Franks supplied the ship for 11,355 million, including the cost of the turret guns (but not the guns). The mattress covers did not include the cost of the 12" guns (imported from Russia and costing 0,5 million, excluding delivery and on-site assembly).
                        In fact, the Tses is not much more expensive than the Retvik, if you subtract the cost of the turret guns, and in addition, its displacement is greater, meaning the cost per ton of displacement is even closer to the American one.

                        So, Retwik has 9" opposite the citadel and only 2" at the ends. Compare that to 9,8 and 6,7-6,3".
                        By the way, you asked about other tanks whose belts began to thin right from the top edge of the armor—that was the case with the Tses. The good news is that the lower edge is 150 mm, and at the midpoint (which is 0,5 m below the waterline), there's still a respectable 200 mm.
                      2. 0
                        26 May 2026 10: 39
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        In fact, the Tses is not much more expensive than the Retvik, if you subtract the cost of the turret guns, and in addition, its displacement is greater, meaning the cost per ton of displacement is even closer to the American one.

                        Well, the cost of two main turrets, at 502 rubles even with delivery, pales in comparison to the approximately 970 rubles paid for over-the-counter work. Would you disagree with the hypothesis that serial Retvizan+ submarines built at domestic shipyards in an alternate reality would cost significantly less than the Borodino series?
                        By the way, you asked who else's belt started to thin right from the top edge of the armor - that was the case with Tses, too.

                        Thanks for the information. This is apparently a specific French "trick" of that period. If you search, you'll probably find other French-built battleships with similarly wedge-shaped main belt armor plates. But they looked so impressive in foreign naval reference books. Now I understand why the Borodino's 125-194mm belt looks so "spoiled" compared to the Tsarevich's.
                      3. +1
                        27 May 2026 04: 19
                        Would you disagree with the hypothesis that serial "Retvizan"+ built at domestic shipyards in an alternate reality would cost significantly less than the "Borodino" series?

                        Cheaper for sure, by about a million.
                      4. +1
                        27 May 2026 05: 14
                        It's highly debatable... The Russian-built armored deck ships Oleg, Ochakov, and Kagul cost more than the armored Bayan.
                      5. 0
                        28 May 2026 02: 25
                        Quote: Ragnar
                        It's highly debatable... The Russian-built armored deck ships Oleg, Ochakov, and Kagul cost more than the armored Bayan.

                        Borodinsky, according to the estimate, is not much more expensive than Tses (up to 5%), but Potemkin is much cheaper than them.
                      6. 0
                        26 May 2026 08: 17
                        Couldn't they somehow include the main battery turrets in the cost of the Retvizan's artillery?
                      7. 0
                        26 May 2026 10: 45
                        And so it turned out. On the other hand, it's impressive that the Retvizan's mine armament (as we now know, useless, even harmful, on the armored ships of that era) cost more than a single main gun turret.
                      8. +1
                        27 May 2026 04: 22
                        On the other hand, it is impressive that the mine armament (as we know today, useless, even harmful on armored ships of that time) of the Retvizan cost more than one main battery turret.

                        At that time, the "mine armament" line included "protection" electrical equipment. The mine launchers themselves (even underwater ones) were relatively inexpensive.
                      9. 0
                        27 May 2026 12: 29
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        In the line "mine armament", at that time there was "protection" electrical equipment

                        Does this prove that the Tsarevich, with its 127,162 rubles for "mine armament," was a significantly less electrified ship than the Retvizan, with its 276,093 rubles?

                        Although my question is certainly rhetorical. There were 1,3 light bulbs at Retvizan alone.

                        An electric dough mixer, again. How could you fight without an electric dough mixer? Just kidding.
  11. +4
    13 May 2026 16: 23
    The fact is that, according to the “table of ranks” that existed at that time, these ships could not be considered frigates, which is why they were called armored corvettes.

    Because they did not have a closed gun deck.
    Rather, it was a second-rank universal cruiser. We only listed it as a first-rank cruiser because it was inappropriate for a general-admiral to sail on a second-rank ship.

    Most likely, because it had an armored deck. According to the 1891 classification, all cruiser-type ships with any armor were classified as first-rank ships, including the Vityaz-class corvettes, which were even smaller than the Svetlana. Clippers and unarmored cruisers were classified as second-rank ships.
    The only exception is the Black Sea "Yaroslavl," which is an armed steamship on the one hand, but a first-class ship on the other. request
    It was later, when drawing up the performance characteristics for the ships of the "For the Needs of the Far East" program, that they came to the conclusion that second-rank cruisers also needed protection.
    1. +4
      13 May 2026 16: 54
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      Because they did not have a closed gun deck.

      But according to the project, it seems like they did.
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      According to the 1891 classification, all ships of cruising purpose with any armor were classified as first rank.

      Really? Thanks, I forgot.
  12. +3
    13 May 2026 19: 18
    As they say - for once, finally... good Thanks to the long-time and highly anticipated author, Andrey from Chelyabinsk, for his article on the subject, a historical article about the navy—informative and interesting for those interested in history... lol Oh, by the way, colleagues... I haven't looked in for a long time, but I came in and saw belay So who decided and ordered the removal of the "Analytics" section? Who's so fed up with it, or is it the analytics itself? Or did the person who decided they weren't up to it themselves, and therefore it should be removed from the site? request
  13. VlK
    +1
    14 May 2026 11: 19
    Dear Author, thank you for the latest series - as always, it's interesting and easy to read.
    Got a question:
    Project No. 3. Armored cruiser "Dupuy-de-Lome." The projected displacement was 6296,26 tons (I can't tell whether it was metric or long tons), but the cruiser was actually overloaded. The projected speed was 20 knots, but during trials it only reached 19,73 knots, and that was with the boilers forced. Armament included 2×194 mm, 6×164 mm, and 6×65 mm guns. 8×47mm, 8×37mm guns and 4×450-mm torpedo tubes.

    Project No. 4. Armored cruiser "Potu" (perhaps it would be more correct to call it "Potuo", but this is not certain). Displacement - 5374 tons, speed - 19 knots. Armor: belt 35-60 mm (according to other sources - 58 mm), deck in the horizontal part - 45 mm, slopes - 85 mm (according to other sources - 38 and 68 mm respectively, and according to A. M. Abaza - 63 mm), conning tower - 230 mm, turrets - 140-170 mm. Armament: 2×194-mm, 10×138,6-mm, 10×47mm, 8×37mm guns and 4×450-mm torpedo tubes.

    What explains this duplication of small calibers? Why not settle on one, presumably more powerful? Especially since in the near future they will be deemed insufficient even for fighting destroyers?
    And also - is the presence of a ram in the designs of ships of that era simply a flight of engineering thought, or are there known cases of their real use?
    1. +3
      14 May 2026 11: 51
      Quote: VlK
      What explains such duplication of small calibers? Why not settle on just one, probably more powerful?

      Two points.
      1) During the design of these ships, these calibers were quite adequate for the tasks facing them.
      2) The French were generally slow to replace their small-caliber guns with something larger. On the other hand, they often used 100mm guns, which somewhat mitigated the problem.
      Quote: VlK
      And also - is the presence of a ram in the designs of ships of that era simply a flight of engineering thought, or are there known cases of their real use?

      After Lissa, there are practically none. Although there were moments when such a maneuver could have been executed, at least theoretically.
      But the famous Dreadnought did ram a German submarine. True, it didn't have a ramming device.
      1. VlK
        0
        14 May 2026 11: 55
        1) During the design of these ships, these calibers were quite adequate for the tasks facing them.

        What tasks were set for them then?
        And yet, for a ship of this class and displacement, isn't the simultaneous presence of 37mm and 47mm guns essentially duplication? How were they fundamentally different, if they were carried in significant numbers on the same ship at the same time?
        1. VlK
          0
          14 May 2026 12: 03
          How did they differ in principle, since they were present on the same ship in significant numbers at the same time?

          I already saw Andrey's answer below
        2. +1
          14 May 2026 12: 10
          Quote: VlK
          What tasks were set for them then?

          Protection from destroyers
          The Dupuy-de-Lôme was launched in 1890. Torpedo boats back then were small ships displacing no more than 100-150 tons with extremely lightweight hulls, for which a 47mm shell was more than enough. The main thing was to hit the target.
          There were also lighter torpedo boats and minelayers. The latter often found rifle fire sufficient.
          Quote: VlK
          And yet, for a ship of this class and displacement, isn’t the simultaneous presence of 37mm and 47mm caliber guns essentially duplication?

          Not quite. 37mm guns were lighter and could be mounted on topmasts and boats. The French generally favored multi-tiered topmasts, turning their ships' masts into a kind of minarets.
          But here we still need to figure out exactly what kind of guns were installed. The thing is, the 37mm guns could be single-barreled or five-barreled. In other words, something like an automatic cannon.
          1. VlK
            0
            14 May 2026 12: 29
            Thanks, I see. So, the 37mm gun could easily be converted into an airborne weapon?
            1. +1
              14 May 2026 12: 39
              Quote: VlK
              So, it turns out that the 37mm gun could easily be converted into an airborne weapon?

              Well, in general, the airborne forces had their own 63.5 mm Baranovsky guns, but in principle, yes.
              In fact, that's exactly what happened to numerous anti-mine guns of the anti-tank weaponry. A significant number of them ended up on the ground front and helped repel Japanese attacks on Port Arthur.
    2. +2
      14 May 2026 11: 56
      Quote: VlK
      Got a question:

      I will try to answer as best I can.
      Quote: VlK
      What explains such duplication of small calibers? Why not settle on just one, probably more powerful?

      I can't say for sure, but I'll point out that the 47mm and 37mm artillery systems had a fundamental difference. The 47mm gun was a conventional weapon, albeit a small caliber. That is, it had a single barrel with a breech block into which a cartridge was inserted. Due to its small caliber, it was fairly rapid-fire and easy to aim—the gun rested on a mount, of course, but it could be aimed vertically and horizontally like a machine gun on a tripod.
      At the same time, the 37mm cannon was a revolving gun. It had five barrels, with a single breechblock where the cartridges were fed. The projectile weighed only half a kilo, three times lighter than the 47mm, but apparently had a higher rate of fire. This is likely why they were used together, but, again, I don't know for sure.
      And yes, you are, of course, right that all these 37-47 are insignificant, even 75 mm was not enough for a 250-350 ton destroyer.
      Quote: VlK
      And also - is the presence of a ram in the designs of ships of that era simply a flight of engineering thought, or are there known cases of their real use?

      Real-world use, alas, was mostly against friendly ships. The last instance of a ramming attack on a surface ship from the era of armor and steam occurred in 1879, when the Peruvian ship Huáscar rammed the Chilean ship Esmeralda. More modern examples include the Dreadnought ramming a German submarine in World War I, but, ironically, the Dreadnought was the first British battleship not designed for ramming.
      1. VlK
        +1
        14 May 2026 12: 02
        I see, thank you, the picture with small-caliber artillery has become clearer.
        Was boarding combat no longer considered possible in that era? Since rams were still around?
        1. +4
          14 May 2026 12: 35
          Quote: VlK
          And boarding combat was no longer considered possible in this era?

          It was considered)) Actually, one of the purposes of a battle top with guns mounted on it is to shower the enemies lined up on the deck with lead.
          Incidentally, the commander of the "Esmeralda" mentioned by Andrey, Captain Arturo Pratt, was attempting to board the "Huascar" and even jumped aboard. But the sailors didn't follow him, and the brave (I'd say frostbitten) officer died. sad
          1. +2
            14 May 2026 12: 41
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            Captain Arturo Pratt was just trying to board the Huascar and even jumped onto it

            We sing a song to the madness of the frostbitten! laughing
            But in fact, the man performed a real military feat.
          2. VlK
            +5
            14 May 2026 12: 44
            Fun fact. It turns out the crew's spirit wasn't what it used to be, it wasn't pirate-like. As they say, "Ships used to be wooden, and the people on them were iron, but now the ships are iron, and the people are paper..." I feel sorry for the captain, he's the last of...
    3. The comment was deleted.
  14. +2
    16 May 2026 23: 10
    Good day, Dear Andrey!
    8" cruisers from the Russian Navy era are a very interesting topic for a series of articles on the history of the Russian Navy.
    We look forward to continuing!
    1. +2
      16 May 2026 23: 19
      Quote: 65-73
      We look forward to continuing!

      Let's do it:))) drinks
  15. +2
    17 May 2026 15: 14
    Bayan was equipped with a third 8-inch main battery gun. 1917
  16. +2
    20 May 2026 17: 10
    Oh, how passions are boiling in the comments)
    I wonder how the project would be assessed today if we had managed to victoriously end the war with Japan (including at sea).
    1. 0
      22 May 2026 19: 30
      With such hardware, without the technical and tactical weakening of the Mikado fleet relative to its actual level, we would not have been able to victoriously conclude the war at sea, no matter what operational and tactical tricks we used.

      During the actual Russo-Japanese War, the Russian Imperial Navy simply did not win a single artillery battle against the Mikado fleet throughout the entire war.

      With high-quality, modern shells and fuses with modern high explosives, with more modern approaches to artillery targeting, there would have been a chance, for example, to force Togo to retreat, break out of the Port Arthur trap after winning the battle in the Yellow Sea on points, and await the arrival of the 2nd Pacific Fleet in Vladivostok.

      But with real historical hardware, no way.
      1. +1
        25 May 2026 10: 16
        I wasn't really keen to answer at first (because it's an alternative theory), but I'll still share my perspective on the events. Briefly.
        With such hardware, without the technical and tactical weakening of the Mikado fleet relative to its actual level, we would not have been able to victoriously conclude the war at sea, no matter what operational and tactical tricks we used.

        What do you mean by "hardware"? Ships? Can you prove that our ships were so worse than Japanese ones?
        During the actual Russo-Japanese War, the Russian Imperial Navy simply did not win a single artillery battle against the Mikado fleet throughout the entire war.

        If we count the major ones and exclude the first battle at Arthur, then there were exactly three of them and in each of them the Japanese fleet had a numerical and qualitative superiority in material terms.
        With high-quality, modern shells and fuses with modern high explosives, with more modern approaches to artillery targeting, there would have been a chance, for example, to force Togo to retreat, break out of the Port Arthur trap after winning the battle in the Yellow Sea on points, and await the arrival of the 2nd Pacific Fleet in Vladivostok.

        Dear Rytik, he's clearly demonstrated the capabilities of Russian shells, and I generally agree with him on the main point: we should have fired better and hit more often, then the course of the battles might have been somewhat different. And for that, all we need is practice, practice, and more practice. If Mr. Vitgeft hadn't sat like a mouse in a hole, but had made some effort to organize combat training, as a result of which we achieved at least half as many hits on July 28th... even that battle could have ended much better for us.
        This is the first.
        Second, you, unfortunately, forget that the war with Japan isn't just a naval war. And here we must say a big "fie" to our army under the valiant Kuropatkin, who screwed up everything.
        Surely you wouldn't argue that the Battle of Liaoyang was essentially won by the Russian army, and that only Kuropatkin's actions turned victory into defeat? In other words, the Russian army could have effectively lifted the siege of Port Arthur, after which the very question of a breakthrough would have been moot. And after the arrival of the 2nd Squadron, the question of naval supremacy was settled.
        1. 0
          25 May 2026 16: 20
          Quote: Trapper7
          What do you mean by "hardware"? Ships? Can you prove that our ships were so much worse than the Japanese?

          First of all, with the naval artillery ammunition (the shell and fuse designs chosen by the explosives "from the 19th century"—wet pyroxylin, smokeless and black powder). Secondly, with such outdated sighting and rangefinding equipment:

          "The Luzhol goniometer, improved by Lieutenant A.K. Myakishev, remained "completely unsuitable for long distances"2, accessible to guns of the 90s. In 1893, the MTK became interested in a fundamentally new rangefinder - the horizontal-base one, proposed by the British Barr and Strood. In the 1899 campaign, the Barr and Strood rangefinder was tested in the Artillery Training Detachment and showed "excellent results." However, the decision of the Ministry's manager to conduct extended tests of two rangefinders in 1900 was suspended due to the desire of the GUKiS to achieve a reduction in their cost by the inventors. In the 1901 and 1902 campaigns, the Barr and Strood rangefinders were again tested in the detachment and "fully justified the reputation of devices of the best purpose." At the same time, it turned out that the rangefinder proposed by the German company Zeiss was inconvenient and needed refinement. Nevertheless, the insistence of the Main Directorate of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation on saving government funds led to a criminal delay in adopting the Barr and Stroud rangefinder for naval service. In 1903, it was once again tested (!) in the Artillery Training Detachment. By the start of the Russo-Japanese War, only a few ships of the Pacific Ocean squadron had a few rangefinders of this system, which had become firmly established on all battleships and cruisers of the Japanese fleet.

          As a consequence, tactical doctrines and methods of artillery fire "danced" from the current technical equipment.

          https://militera.lib.ru/tw/melnikov1/05.html

          "By taking the path of least resistance, they ignored other possibilities for increasing the number of hits that could have been promised by optical sights, basic rangefinders, and more sophisticated methods of artillery fire control.

          Looking ahead, we should add that it was precisely these new means of increasing hit rates that allowed the Japanese to rely on high-explosive shells, whose impact, unlike armor-piercing shells, was unaffected by range, and they could inflict significant damage even on battleships with their incomplete armor. Thus, the Japanese navy adopted elongated high-explosive shells (called "suitcases" in Port Arthur), which, although they tumbled in flight, exploded reliably. Having spared no expense on the latest sights and rangefinders introduced in the late 19th century, and having carefully studied artillery fire control methods developed in Italy, by the start of the war with Russia, the Japanese had mastered accurate marksmanship at distances unattainable by any navy in the world.
          If you count the big ones and exclude Arthur's first fight, then there were exactly three of them

          If you count the minor incidents, it was the same. The enemy had technical superiority and more than one battle was won. Of course, I'm not counting the "battles" with fire ships trying to bottle up the squadron in the inner roadstead of Port Arthur. I'm talking about the artillery battles between warships.
          Mr. Rytik, in general, quite clearly demonstrated the capabilities of Russian shells.

          I know the design of Russian shells and fuses and their effects—armor-piercing, fragmentation, high-explosive, and incendiary. Frankly, I don't know what you know or what the esteemed Rytik demonstrated to you. The shells were exactly what experts from the Imperial and Soviet periods described after Tsushima.

          True, even in their descriptions, you won't read that the intermediate detonator in the Brink fuse was simply too light and, depending on the moisture content of the pyroxylin, typically failed to fully detonate the pyroxylin explosive charge. Japanese shells were also often guilty of this. But in the Ijuin fuse, the intermediate detonator charge—not pyroxylin, but powdered picric acid—was, if I remember correctly, slightly more powerful than the same charge in the domestic 11DM fuse, which contained "only 55,5 grams of picric acid." Therefore, Japanese shells were prone to incomplete detonation of the explosive charges, designed to detonate not the main charge of wet pyroxylin, but the main charge of cast picric acid, to a much lesser extent.

          You'll also never read anywhere that the Brink fuse was NOT a delayed-action fuse. Authors who haven't fully understood the fuse's design can't explain, for example, why the striker that struck the detonator cap in this fuse was aluminum. It was made to accelerate faster under the action of the gases ignited by the primer cap of the gunpowder firecracker. The fuse's designer was precisely striving to reduce its response time. But he wanted to reduce the response time after the fuse had already detonated against the target, meaning the shell had struck something more substantial than the thin 5-8 mm plating of the ship's outer side. When penetrating the thin plating of the ship's upper side, the firing mechanism of the fuse's ignition section typically failed to fire, because the blunt striker, with its rifle-type primer and the rifle-type firing pin designed to strike it, was specifically designed to fail to fire against "weak targets."

          Experts also didn't focus on the fact that the Russian 12" shells were loaded with smokeless powder explosive charges. As the saying goes, "The main thing during an investigation is not to get caught."

          However, I believe that the respected Rytik has already explained all this to you.
          It was necessary to shoot better and hit more often, then the course of the battles could have been somewhat different.

          I won't write a lot of letters about why backward technology determines a lag in tactics.

          I'll just point out that with such shells, sights, and Luzhol-Myakishev angle meters as the primary tools for determining the range to a target ship, it was simply impossible to figure out how to "hit more often" before the war. And once the war began, it was too late.

          It wasn't until the summer of 1905, when the war at sea was hopelessly lost, that anyone even realized there was something wrong with the performance of the medium-caliber steel pyroxylin shells. The first reflex action was to reload the shells with smokeless powder and a Model 1894 percussion tube. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
          July 28th... even that fight could have ended much better for us.

          As is well known, the Japanese often suffered more from the explosions of their own shells than from hits from Russian shells, both in terms of cannon failures and casualties. The topic of "they themselves" still awaits its meticulous researcher. So far, only a few studies have been published. For example:

          https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/1613.html

          "They themselves. Losses of the Nissin cruiser crew in the Battle of Tsushima"
          Unfortunately, you forget that the war with Japan isn't just a naval war. And here we must say a big "fie" to our army under the valiant Kuropatkin, who screwed up everything.

          Why do I forget? I remember. But where else can I go with this "rambling" with my lack of brevity? The army faced similar technical problems, primarily with artillery ammunition. It turned out that fighting the Japanese in field battles with only shrapnel, without modern field howitzers and mountain guns, without modern shells loaded with high explosives, was not very successful. If not for the heroic ground defense of Port Arthur, there would be very few pages of praise for the armed forces of Nicholas II's empire.
        2. +1
          26 May 2026 08: 26
          The war with Japan was lost at the very moment when the "leadership" said that "WAR WILL NOT BE!"; with a different approach, a LOT could have been, and should have been, done differently... A picture in oils...
  17. 0
    22 May 2026 16: 50
    Hi everyone, it turns out that Rurik-class cruisers were completely unnecessary during the Russo-Japanese War. For example, three Bayans would be preferable to Gromoboi and K⁰ in an aggressive attack in the Tsushima Strait zone, as they have greater speed and armor for short-term contact with any enemy. They have sufficient range even at full speed... And the East Coast of Japan and the Pacific Ocean should be left to the Volunteer cruisers...
    1. +2
      23 May 2026 13: 01
      Quote: Ragnar
      Hello everyone,

      Drututi hi
      Quote: Ragnar
      Rurik-class cruisers turned out to be completely unnecessary

      Why would that be?
      As long as the Rurik cruisers fought as intended, all was well. And they were more useful than all the other cruisers in the Russian fleet combined. Disaster struck when, sailing toward Vitgeft, they engaged in a line battle, for which they were ill-suited. However, they fared relatively well, as the Rurik's loss was, after all, an accident.
      Quote: Ragnar
      for example, three Bayans, in the case of aggressive force action in the Tsushima Strait zone, look preferable to Gromoboy and K⁰,

      It still needs to reach Tsushima, and the Bayan's range isn't that great. It might be able to get there and back, but there won't be much left for cruising and a possible battle.
      Three Bayans would have been very effective at Port Arthur, since they could, albeit with some reservations, hold even the main guns of battleships. They would have certainly broken through to the ZhM after the battle, without even noticing the hits that forced the Askold and Diana to intervene.
      Quote: Ragnar
      preferable to Gromoboy and K⁰

      Building another Bayan to replace the Gromoboi is possible. But replacing the others is highly unlikely. When the Rurik and Rossiya were laid down, such a project would not have been feasible. The Charnay or Dupuy-de-Loma are not even a certainty.
      1. +1
        23 May 2026 15: 17
        Ivan, hi... I partly agree... but only partly... Let's have two Bayans. Consider each campaign of the Vladivostok detachment separately. Let's skip the zero - empty with global glaciation. 1. Genzan. Two Bayans easily handled what the detachment ultimately achieved. 2. Tsushima No. 1. Sado-Maru? Unchanged for the rest. Escape is easier with Bayans... Cruising??? What kind, and where? For the Sea of ​​Japan, the Bayans' range is more than enough... To the Pacific Ocean? One campaign... Results? Well, so-so... The Volunteers should have been causing a stir there... Ulsan? I think two Bayans would have easily evaded battle... Well, Russia and Rurik need some other tasks... Maybe the community can suggest what?
  18. 0
    25 May 2026 12: 37
    Colleague Rytik listed other shortcomings: ventilation, unsinkability, etc.
    I don't remember you objecting to him)))
    All the drawings and system layouts were approved by the MTK... So it's unlikely that Cramp can be blamed for this...
  19. 0
    29 May 2026 12: 26
    Quote: AlexanderA
    1. The fact that the Retvizan's bow main battery turret was jammed is not a design flaw of the ship, but a design flaw of the turret itself. The Tsarevich's main battery turrets were of exactly the same design, with the same design flaws.

    Good afternoon... Ivan, things aren't working out for us... I'm not raising the "Tsarevich" to Olympus, and I believe that ideal ships don't exist in principle; they're all compromises to one degree or another... But...
    I have a question: why do you think the Retvizan's shortcomings are limited to its individual components (particularly the turrets), while the fact that the conning tower (the brain of the warship) was turned into a thoroughfare for shrapnel, and even whole shells (and those stupid beams) are individual flaws of the Tsarevich design as a whole? The rudder control failed; that's the problem, not the ship's inherent yaw rate...
    1. 0
      29 May 2026 12: 42
      Quote: Ragnar
      Ivan, somehow things aren't working out between us...

      If you are responding to me, then when you reply this way (not to a comment, but simply in an article), notifications do not come.
  20. +1
    29 May 2026 16: 05
    Quote: AlexanderA
    Why did you decide to compare the combat survivability of a flimsy armored cruiser, which was knocked out of the war by a mere shell burst near its side, breaking five hull frames, and the combat survivability of an armored cruiser, which, according to official reports, received the second most hits from large-caliber Russian shells after the Mikasa in the Tsushima battle, losing almost all of its main battery artillery, yet the next day, as part of the main force, continued to pursue and destroy the remnants of the Russian squadron - the evening of the following day, together with the Kasuga, sending the BBO Admiral Ushakov to the bottom?

    Seriously, maybe it’s still “Yakumo” and “Iwate”?