How the Arena KAZ attempted to teach kamikaze drones to detect

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How the Arena KAZ attempted to teach kamikaze drones to detect

Creation tank active protection system capable of detecting FPV-drones, a very expensive task. Given this, Russian developers decided to take a different approach: teach them to "see." Drones the already existing Arena.

Introduction


Cheap and mass-produced FPV drones with anti-tank munitions under their fuselages have become a serious threat to military vehicles on the battlefield. So serious, in fact, that today tanks almost never enter the line of contact without makeshift protection like "barbecues," unraveled metal cables like "hedgehogs," and "dreadlocks." A drone is sure to arrive, and more than one at that.



However, while various makeshift superstructures offer protection from FPV attacks, they also negatively impact the tank's functionality: they limit maneuverability, the crew's situational awareness, and evacuation from the vehicle in the event of an enemy anti-tank weapon's impact. Therefore, the need for an active defense system against drones that wouldn't turn the tank into a giant shed on tracks is self-explanatory.

Looking at advanced foreign developments of similar systems, one can see numerous solutions and concepts, including optical guidance stations, attempts to use machine guns and automatic cannons as drone strikes, the introduction of AI for UAV detection, and other expensive "toys." As for the Russian defense industry, we've decided to take the path of least resistance.


A T-72B3M tank with the Arena-M active protection system. Source: Telegram channel "Ugolok Sitha"

The discussion revolves around upgrading the existing, albeit still limited, Arena active defense system, which is, as they say, a century old. It was probably mentioned a couple of years ago that domestic developers were modernizing it to counter drones. And now, judging by media reports, a number of these systems are already at least in trial operation to identify problems and shortcomings.

In this regard, it would be interesting to learn how our engineers managed to solve the problem of detecting small UAVs, as the Arena uses a fairly standard Doppler-filtered radar to identify and track potentially dangerous targets attacking a tank. And such information appears to have surfaced—it's contained in the publicly published patent RU 2 853 544 C1, owned by JSC Scientific and Production Corporation "Design Bureau of Mechanical Engineering."

The problem of detecting drones with conventional radars


To understand the essence of the problem, let's imagine a radar station in some anti-aircraft system. Almost everyone has at least a basic understanding of how it works: the radar emits radio waves at regular intervals and, if an aircraft is present in the sky, records their reflection. Through signal processing in the computer, the anti-aircraft system obtains data on the potential target's position in space, its speed, and trajectory.

The Arena radar systems and similar systems operate in a similar manner. They also "monitor" the area, albeit only around a tank or other protected object, and not as far away as anti-aircraft systems. They also detect flying potentially dangerous targets, but in the form of projectiles and missiles, after which the computing equipment, having determined their trajectory and speed, gives the command to fire counter-munitions, which with their striking elements destroy the object flying at the tank.

However, there's one crucial caveat here. The active protection system operates in very harsh conditions. It literally needs to filter everything it "sees" and not react to slow-flying objects like birds, clods of earth from nearby shell explosions, falling debris from nearby buildings, and the like. Otherwise, it will trigger anything moving around it.

To achieve this, the active protection system (Arena and its foreign counterparts) has a Doppler filter that cuts out all low-frequency signals reflected from objects moving at relatively low speeds. Without it, the system is practically useless—it will fire all its counter-munitions before making contact with the enemy.

But this also creates one of the main problems in terms of detecting drones carrying anti-tank munitions. They, as is well known, don't usually fly at high speed, and can often hover in the air directly in front of a tank, then slowly "sneak up" on it and select a suitable location for an attack.

Two modes of operation


To prevent the Arena active defense system from firing all its counter-munitions at imaginary flying crows, simultaneously killing the infantry around the tank, while still being able to effectively engage both kamikaze drones and classic anti-tank weapons such as missiles and grenades, according to the patent, it is being designed with two operating modes. These modes are tentatively called "long-range" and "short-range."

The defense system switches between them on a timer—first one is activated, then the second, then the first again, and then the second again. Here, by the way, is a functional diagram of the active defense system with these innovations:


1 — Doppler radar for detecting and tracking an approaching anti-tank missile; 2 — Doppler filter of radio signals; 3 — processor for switching the detection distances of the anti-tank missile by radar 1 and trajectory prediction; 4 — block for selecting protective munition 5 and issuing executive commands to it; 5 — protective munition; 6 — timer for generating commands for alternating switching of radar 1; 7 — divider of the lengths of trajectory segments by the time intervals of their radar measurements (trajectory velocity calculator); 8–13 — communication channels between the APS units. Source: patent RU 2 853 544 C1.

Now about the operating modes.

In "long-range" detection mode, the system operates according to the familiar principle. Its radars continuously scan the surrounding area in anticipation of the arrival of a classic anti-tank weapon such as a missile or grenade, filtering the reflected high-frequency radio waves.

Upon detecting a potentially dangerous target, the system measures its trajectory coordinates, Doppler frequency (the frequency of the reflected signal), and records the measurement time. Using this data, the system tracks the attacking target by generating a sequence of new holdoff distances (calculating the location of the attacking projectile at the next instant) at ranges that are each reduced by an amount equal to or greater than the product of the dangerous target's Doppler velocity and the technical time it takes the radar to generate the new range.

Then, when a dangerous target (attacking projectile) enters the active protection system's kill zone, the required counter-munition is automatically selected and fired.

The second, "short-range" mode is designed to detect small drones. Given that the drone may be hovering or moving at very low speeds, the active defense system in this mode "reacts" to the rotation of its propellers, which creates a Doppler effect with an echo frequency of over 2 kHz, corresponding to a speed of over 20 meters per second.

The mere rotation of the propellers gives the system a distorted picture: the drone may hover, but the blade movement will be perceived as the drone itself moving at a speed that doesn't correspond to reality. Therefore, after the initial detection of the drone (its rotating propellers), the active defense system switches to target tracking mode, in which the system sequentially generates new target waiting distances.

This can be understood as a gradual shift in the priority control zone as the drone approaches the vehicle. Initially, the new distance is set with a margin, based on the drone's maximum possible speed and the time it takes the radar to adjust to the new range. Then, with each subsequent cycle, the waiting distance is reduced more precisely—by an amount related to the drone's measured current speed and the radar's adjustment time. This way, the system tries not to lose the target between measurement cycles and maintains its tracking until it enters the kill zone.


In other words, to plot the drone's trajectory, they decided to abandon the use of Doppler velocity as the primary data source. Instead, the processor calculates the so-called trajectory velocity: it takes successive drone coordinates measured at different points in time, determines the length of the trajectory sections traveled between adjacent measurements, and divides these distances into corresponding time intervals. Essentially, the velocity is calculated geometrically, based on the actual movement of the target, rather than the Doppler shift of the signal.

All this allows for a more or less accurate calculation of the drone's position in space and the selection of the appropriate counter-munition for firing and subsequent destruction of the drone.

From the perspective of the active protection system itself, if it were a person, it would very simply look something like this:

Hmm, I noticed something flying towards me. It's clearly not a missile or a grenade, since I didn't see anything in "long-range" mode—it's probably a drone. But it's moving incredibly fast, according to the radar. So I won't trust the speed data—it's all a lie. Instead, I'll record its coordinates several times in a row, watching how it actually moves through space from one measurement to the next.

That way I'll understand its actual speed and calculate its trajectory. And then I'll hit its plastic head with my shrapnel sledgehammer.

Final World


Overall, domestic developers are proposing a very interesting idea that doesn't require a complete overhaul of the entire active defense system, much less the introduction of various expensive components such as optical detection stations with automatic target tracking and specialized radars. In other words, it's relatively cheap and effective.

But there are also some downsides. These are primarily due to the fact that the system, modified in this way, is not very resistant to interference. This applies to operations in urban areas or, for example, wooded areas, where objects surrounding the tank can act as radar reflectors, thus creating interference that hinders drone detection.

Another disadvantage (more conditional) is the fact that the active protection system alternately switches from the “long-range” mode to the “short-range” mode and back, which could theoretically lead to the miss of a missile or drone, since they could fly past at the moment when an unsuitable operating mode is activated.

So it's not perfect, especially considering that Arena has very few counter-munitions, and a dozen drones can target a tank. But as a temporary measure, it's perfectly adequate. Later, when we have time and money, we'll have to invent something more advanced anyway.

The source of information:
Patent RU 2 853 544 C1. Date of registration: December 24, 2025. Published on the website of the Federal Institute of Industrial Property.
68 comments
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  1. +2
    7 May 2026 05: 54
    Without fish, cancer is a fish.
    Although, to be honest, I have never seen the Arena APS (unlike the Drozd) on production tanks.
    1. +1
      7 May 2026 21: 25
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      Although, to be honest, I have never seen the Arena APS (unlike the Drozd) on production tanks.

      It doesn't exist. The Ministry of Defense considers it too expensive. That's why it was never ordered, preferring the Shtora. The entire project is KBM's initiative, financed by its own funds. However, all active protection systems have one problem, besides the price: infantry is afraid to be near them.
  2. +2
    7 May 2026 05: 57
    All this is great, now all that's left is to start installing some kind of active protection modules on equipment en masse, like the Arena, even though it's been around for years...
    1. +5
      7 May 2026 06: 14
      Quote from turembo
      All this is great, now all that remains is to start installing it on equipment en masse.

      That's right!
      But... The problem of defending armored vehicles from small drones is deeper.
      Here's what they write: 10-20-50 drones flew at the tank with the Tsar-Barbeque.
      In military terms, this is called not suppressing the enemy's defense fire system.
      The impact of our firepower, the same drones, electronic warfare systems should be such that one drone could hit a tank during an attack, and not always.
      And the technical means for this already exist. They must be used correctly, deployed to cover the breach, i.e., to ensure a comprehensive offensive, including achieving dominance in the small skies.
      When in the past there were attempts to attack the enemy's unsuppressed defense, tanks burned in the tens and hundreds, and without any drones.
      But by cooperating with aviation and artillery, the Germans at the Kursk Bulge managed to advance and break through the strongest defenses, especially on the southern face, "destroying one anti-tank zone after another."
  3. +2
    7 May 2026 06: 20
    As the saying goes, "The worst begins first..." The problem can be solved by duplicating the systems. We install two and have them work alternately, one in short-range mode, the other in long-range mode, with a certain frequency shift. This is an option. hi
    1. +3
      7 May 2026 06: 44
      Quote: jonht
      The problem can be solved by duplicating the systems; we install two and they work alternately, one in the short-range mode, the second in the long-range mode, with a certain change in frequency.

      It's possible to somehow supplement the metal filter. After all, neither a crow nor even a lump of earth contains a shaped charge funnel, and such a crater is impossible without a metal lining.
      1. D16
        +5
        7 May 2026 07: 36
        do not carry a cumulative charge funnel

        They'll attack first with a drone armed with a TNT bomb, the explosion of which will blow both the electronic warfare system and the Arena off the tower. And then, whatever comes next.
        In my opinion, the Arena should do its job—intercept fast targets. Slower targets should be targeted by a turret with shotgun shells. The shotgun shells quickly lose energy and can't cause serious damage to friendly vehicles or heavily armored assault troops. The turret can be aimed using optical and audio sensors.
        1. +1
          7 May 2026 08: 19
          Quote: D16
          They'll attack first with a drone armed with a TNT bomb, the explosion of which will blow both the electronic warfare system and the Arena off the tower. And then, whatever comes next.

          The point is that it is not enough to hang various kinds of systems on the tower.
          The main units should be protected under armor, at least from shrapnel and TNT. Like a sight. The head is in the window, and the body with all the units is behind the armor. And that's a serious redesign of the combat module... But there's not much to go on.
          Well, as I wrote above: without powerful suppression (destruction) of the drone deployment system, from the calculations to shooting them down in the air, no APS or braziers will be of any radical help.
          1. +1
            7 May 2026 18: 25
            Quote: Alekseev
            The main components must be protected under armor, at least from shrapnel and TNT. Like a sight. The head is in the window, and the body with all the components is behind the armor. And that's a serious redesign of the combat module...
            The sensor and locator lenses cannot be covered, otherwise they will not see anything, and the counter-munition blocks are already covered by armor (open only from above)
            In pictures 3 and 4 T-72M3 with the installed KAZ "Arena-M"
        2. 0
          7 May 2026 08: 23
          Quote: D16
          They'll attack first with a drone armed with a TNT bomb, the explosion of which will blow both the electronic warfare system and the Arena off the tower. And then, whatever comes next.

          It's a bit complicated for hitting tanks. It's possible, though.

          Quote: D16
          In my opinion, Arena should do its job - intercept "fast" targets.
          Yes, the fired blocks are a consumable, if they teach you to identify the target, these blocks can be fired through several guided mortars.
        3. 0
          7 May 2026 15: 23
          The drone is visible; it has a lot of metal parts and a rather large battery.
          We just need to make a KAZ and test it, install it on equipment and fight, but here we are discussing it on the Internet, whether we see it or not.
      2. +1
        7 May 2026 11: 25
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        It is possible to somehow supplement the filter for the presence of metal.

        In general, drones have rotating propellers (by the way, this is how they are identified in radar), whether it is stationary or moving...
        1. 0
          8 May 2026 03: 47
          Quote: NIKNN
          In general, drones have rotating propellers (by the way, this is how they are identified in radar), whether it is stationary or moving...

          This is covered in the article. But the problem is that the blades are made of radio-transparent materials...
  4. +1
    7 May 2026 09: 21
    Any modern APS is limited to 12-14 rounds, so it won't hold up against 20-30-40 drones. Therefore, it's necessary to differentiate between APS against ATGMs and UAV-destroying systems.
    1. 0
      8 May 2026 14: 50
      Then maybe an unmanned tower, like Armata, would be better? You can fit a ton of stuff in there.
      1. 0
        12 May 2026 08: 55
        There's this thing called mass. Due to the Armata's large body, it's already quite large.
  5. +1
    7 May 2026 10: 56
    All main battle tanks need active protection systems (APS). An adapted anti-drone active protection system (APS) is a vital necessity.
    They are just expensive and not installed on all OBTs.
  6. 0
    7 May 2026 12: 54
    This Arena is expensive, so they still haven't installed it on our tanks.
    1. 0
      8 May 2026 14: 54
      So, the tank isn't worth much? And the crew's lives are a mere pittance?
      Or maybe those who think "expensive-inexpensive" should be thrown upside down? They've found a way to cut corners!!!
      1. +1
        8 May 2026 15: 28
        It's not me!!! It's not my fault!!!!
  7. +2
    7 May 2026 14: 19
    There's only one way to protect armored vehicles: the mandatory installation of an active protection system (APS) and, in addition, an automatic anti-UAV gun. The idea of ​​domestic "effective managers and optimizers" in the military-industrial complex to take the path of least resistance and simply modify APS systems to combat drones not only has numerous drawbacks, it's stillborn, like any attempt to create a universal "perfect" weapon. All manufacturers of relevant weapons have long understood this and are actively developing specialized means to protect armored vehicles in addition to APS. And the assertion that anti-UAV systems consisting of optical targeting stations using AI and machine guns or automatic cannons as drone-killing weapons are expensive "toys" is a complete lie. According to experts, the price of one Arena M APS set, depending on the configuration, is $300,000–500,000 and cannot be compared with the cost of systems such as the American Bullfrog or the German Rheinmetall Natter 7,62 (costing up to $100,000).
    1. +1
      7 May 2026 15: 24
      The idea of ​​domestic “effective managers and optimizers” from the military-industrial complex is to take the path of least resistance and
      Don't make any KAZs. The article discusses a patent, not actual testing, much less combat use.
      1. 0
        7 May 2026 16: 48
        What do you think this is about: "If you look at cutting-edge foreign developments of similar systems, you can see numerous solutions and concepts, including optical guidance stations, attempts to use machine guns and automatic cannons as drone strikes, the introduction of AI for UAV detection, and other expensive "toys." As for the Russian defense industry, we've decided to take the path of least resistance."
        1. +1
          7 May 2026 17: 46
          As for the Russian military-industrial complex, we have decided to take the path of least resistance.
          And they decided to let the soldiers build themselves a hedgehog or a shed from whatever they could find and somehow carry out the order. We even make barbecues in the frontline areas as best we can, and you're talking about KAZ! request
    2. -1
      7 May 2026 22: 30
      I agree with you!
      In my opinion, if we're going to tackle the problem of protecting armored fighting vehicles in general, and main battle tanks in particular, from FPV drones on the battlefield, then it goes without saying that the tank itself needs multiple defense systems... Specifically, in addition to the long-suffering Arena-M, our tank has a remote-controlled air defense system with a Kord, which could be replaced with an automated turret with the same PKTM twin 7.62mm caliber rounds. What does that give us?
      Firstly, the ammo capacity for these machine guns has been increased significantly, compared to the heavier Kord. Secondly, special 7.62mm SC-228 "Mnogotochie" rounds for this caliber are already available and being tested. Combined with the turret's targeting systems and the PKTM's rate of fire, these rounds will simply eliminate all, or almost all, incoming drones!
      The only thing left to do is to organize ourselves and solve this problem!)))
    3. -1
      8 May 2026 14: 57
      I agree to some extent. They need a 30-57mm air defense system to wipe out any reconnaissance or strike crap from the sky. Consequently, the enemy will have less room to maneuver and will have poorer visibility. And any that do break through should be destroyed by the APS.
  8. 0
    7 May 2026 16: 36
    An engineer's thought: An IR spotlight can blind a drone's camera. Wouldn't it be a simpler and more reliable solution to cover the tank from all angles? Or should I light them from the direction of detection? Or use strobe mode? I think it's entirely possible to try... at least...
    1. 0
      7 May 2026 17: 36
      Dmitry22, the idea of ​​blinding the camera with an IR illuminator is certainly interesting, but the problem is that the objects aren't static. The drone and camera move, and the equipment with the IR illuminator installed moves, too. So what happens when the "blind" but fully mobile drone moves out of the blinding zone?
      1. 0
        8 May 2026 08: 03
        You didn't read the proposal carefully. The spotlights are either all-round, covering the entire hemisphere without blind spots, or they can be aimed at the target (but this is more expensive and complicated). The spotlight can be focused at an angle of, say, 30 degrees, so about twenty of them would be needed for the entire BM. The cost, compared to other methods, is next to nothing, installation is simple, activation is by button, and there's absolute safety for those around. That's all.
      2. 0
        8 May 2026 08: 19
        And another thing: the goal isn't to shoot down the drone, but to disrupt the attack. So, it'll fly around, unable to land a precise hit, until its battery dies, and then fall to the ground like an autumn leaf...
  9. 0
    7 May 2026 17: 23
    The rotation of the propellers alone gives the complex a distorted picture:
    The Doppler shift is used only for target selection, i.e., distinguishing the target from local reflections such as ground or water. The trajectory is always calculated based on the difference between position measurements. This is simply because the target can move along a parameter—i.e., tangentially—in which case its Doppler shift is zero, but tracking (to avoid losing it during such a maneuver) is necessary.
    Accordingly, the Arena system operates on the same principle, and tracking drones presents no theoretical problem. It's just that the existing system was designed for high-speed munitions and configured accordingly (i.e., simplified at the expense of low-speed targets). It simply received a new software mode that didn't exist before. There is a technical issue with the weak reflection from a drone; it will likely require increasing the transmitter power or receiver sensitivity to increase the guaranteed detection range (I believe it's currently limited), and the introduction of a second type of submunition, as the standard munition is clearly excessive against a drone.
    Some people rely on barrel-mounted weapons to destroy drones, but that's a mistake. For a coordinated attack of 10 drones from a distance of 50 meters at a speed of 180 km/h, the barrel must fire 10 aimed shots in one second across a 360-degree arc. This requires an invention, not a patent.
    1. 0
      8 May 2026 08: 20
      Conjurer, I disagree with you about barreled weapons. It's not the weapons themselves, but the detection systems. Modern digital and thermal imaging devices can "see" day and night at distances up to 1000 meters, for sure (I say this as a hunter who uses such devices constantly), and if they "scan" the entire upper hemisphere, getting close to an object will be oh so difficult. Now about barreled weapons: the army is armed with a machine gun like this one, the GShG, in 7,62x54R caliber, weighing 19 kg. It has a rate of fire of 3500 rounds per minute, which is more than 50 rounds per minute. And no "breakthrough" invention is needed; back in 2017, the Belarusians demonstrated the Berserk robotic system. If you remove the robotic chassis and one GShG, and "tie" the control to a computer, into whose memory the drones are "sewn" as targets to be destroyed at certain distances, you will get an excellent turret for vehicles.
    2. 0
      8 May 2026 08: 31
      Conjurer, I apologize, there was a typo, not 50 shots/min, but 50 shots/sec.
      1. 0
        8 May 2026 13: 46
        The problem isn't the rate of fire, but the speed of accurate fire across a 360-degree arc. Anyone can fire in one direction, but try hitting 10 targets coming from different directions in a second. I'll give you a hint—you'll get tired of turning the barrel at that speed.
        1. 0
          8 May 2026 19: 49
          Conjurer, that's a matter of tactical application. A quick historical example: during WWII, our Il-2 attack aircraft, when attacking enemy positions without fighter cover, widely employed a tactical formation called variously—sometimes a "round dance," sometimes a "mill." The essence was always the same: the aircraft formed a circle, each covering the one in front.
          1. 0
            9 May 2026 08: 56
            That is, instead of one barrel, install 10. It will no longer resemble a machine gun turret on a turret, and if you count on group protection of tanks, then it will not be drones that will fly into such a group, but howitzer shells.
            What I'm getting at is that in this case, an anti-drone system like the KAZ, which has the ability to hit multiple targets from all directions almost simultaneously, seems preferable to a barrel weapon.
            1. 0
              9 May 2026 13: 30
              Dear Conjurer, any turret mount is simply a mechanical structure for mounting firearms, and the number of barrels is completely irrelevant. You can install as many as ten if it makes sense. Regarding your "profound" reasoning about group defense of armored vehicles on the battlefield, have you even heard of such a concept as "employment tactics," or even of the interaction of military branches? Or, after listening to and reading so many military "experts," hasn't it occurred to you that during an attack, armored vehicles don't stand still, but move rapidly, in part to avoid becoming a stationary target? And that a howitzer is a weapon that delivers high-angle fire from indirect positions, primarily at stationary targets? And you've probably never heard of counter-battery fire or "artillery/barrage fire" as tools for covering advancing formations? At your leisure, read the combat manuals and concepts for the employment of tank and motorized rifle units, written with the current situation in mind in the Northern Military District; everything is laid out very clearly there. And regarding your "flying in on a concentration," there's a wonderful quote attributed to Marshal Moskalenko: "With two hundred guns per kilometer of front, no one inquires about the enemy or reports on him, but only reports the line to which our advancing units have reached."
              1. 0
                13 May 2026 09: 03
                So, where is all this stuff you've written here in reality? Where is the mass use of artillery, tank avalanches, and "advancing formations"? There are isolated attacks by pairs of armored vehicles, artillery pieces dug into the ground a kilometer apart, and infantry pairs attacking the enemy at 50-meter intervals.
                That's reality. And in this reality, a moving tank group is just as susceptible to howitzer fire as a stationary one, and its mobility doesn't significantly affect the accuracy of that fire. I hope you're not going to claim that a 152mm shell landing nearby poses no danger to a tank?
                1. 0
                  13 May 2026 11: 17
                  Conjurer, are you unwilling to understand what's written, or are you simply feigning ignorance? What we're currently seeing, as you described, "individual attacks by pairs of armored vehicles and infantry detachments attacking the enemy at 50-meter intervals"—that's not how it should be. It should be (if we're talking about ground attacks) as outlined in the field manuals: a massive artillery barrage with the required number of artillery units, the battle formations of which are covered by counter-battery and air defense systems, including against UAV attacks. Even before the artillery barrage ends, an attack by full-fledged tank and motorized rifle units (platoon, company, battalion, etc., depending on the mission at hand) should begin. Motorized riflemen should remain under armor, not on it, until the moment of direct fire contact. And one more thing for you, who apparently haven't served in the army: the howitzer's primary ammunition is a high-explosive fragmentation shell, the shrapnel from which is easily absorbed by the armor of tanks and heavy infantry fighting vehicles. However, the lack of sufficient equipment for full-scale combat operations is the main reason for the "creeping offensive" tactics of small forces, resulting in high casualties, and the infantry, moving on foot or in civilian motorcycles and vehicles, storming dugouts and trenches dug in forest belts instead of simply destroying them with concentrated artillery fire.
                  1. 0
                    15 May 2026 09: 34
                    I served in the army since 1980 and know perfectly well what you're trying to describe here. But many years have passed since then, and the reality of combat has changed dramatically. This isn't because the army lacks anything, but because it can't physically use its existing weapons according to regulations due to new technological means of reconnaissance and destruction, which lead to enormous losses when attempting to use them. This is something you refuse to understand, or are simply feigning ignorance.
                    1. 0
                      15 May 2026 15: 06
                      Conjurer, all the changes you're trying to elevate to the category of "insurmountable obstacles" are actually "nothing" when they're truly resisted. This happened before in history: when the first airplanes appeared over the battlefield, troops suffered losses until machine guns pointed skyward and anti-aircraft guns appeared. The same thing is happening now, and not a single army in the world has abandoned the classic warfare model due to the advent of drones. Ground operations in Gaza are a case in point: a massive fire strike to suppress resistance versus a classic ground operation. As for reconnaissance, that concept is as old as war itself. As actions change, so do the countermeasures. I agree with you on one thing: trying to counter new means with old methods guarantees enormous losses.
    3. 0
      12 May 2026 10: 17
      This doesn't require a patent; it requires an invention.

      Patents are issued precisely for inventions.
      1. 0
        13 May 2026 09: 08
        There's a significant difference between a patent and an invention. A patent can be issued if there's a formal difference from an analogous proposal, whereas an invention is defined as a proposal that's fundamentally different from an analogous proposal, i.e., operates differently.
        1. 0
          13 May 2026 10: 22
          There's a significant difference between a patent and an invention. A patent can be issued if there's a formal difference from an analogous proposal, whereas an invention is defined as a proposal that's fundamentally different from an analogous proposal, i.e., operates differently.

          Thanks for the clarification. 😀 I have over three dozen copyright certificates and patents for inventions.
          A patent can be obtained:
          1. For an invention
          2. For a utility model
          3. For an industrial design.
          Both an invention and a utility model must be substantially different from the prototype and similar products. In both cases, if experts recognize novelty, a patent is issued. The only requirement that distinguishes an invention from a utility model is the requirement for an inventive step in the technical solution. This implies that the solution must not be obvious to a person skilled in the art.
          1. 0
            15 May 2026 09: 43
            This implies that the solution should not be obvious to a person skilled in the art.
            Well, that's the difference between an invention and a patent, except it's not about a lack of obviousness, but about fundamental novelty, providing an additional positive effect compared to its analogue. And novelty is enough for a patent. It's just that I have several patent certificates, and I've read quite a few American patents in my time.
            1. 0
              15 May 2026 09: 47
              But for a patent, novelty is enough.

              For which patent exactly? There are three types.
              This forum is discussing a patent for
              INVENTION RU 2 853 544 C1.
            2. 0
              15 May 2026 10: 08
              https://patents.google.com/patent/RU2853544C1/ru
              1. 0
                15 May 2026 15: 21
                Yes, that's a cool invention patent. They managed to convince the expert that target detection based on the Doppler shift of propeller rotation is something completely unknown to science. That's the only difference in their invention formula; everything else is simply positional calculations. It's odd, of course, that the expert didn't mention the rotation of helicopter and transport propellers. I didn't consider this know-how when I wrote my sentence about the difference between a patent for an active protection system and what would need to be invented to match it in terms of target engagement rate, but oh well.
                1. 0
                  15 May 2026 16: 12
                  A patent for an invention shouldn't contain anything unknown to science (new in science is a discovery; patents aren't granted for discoveries; there's a different approach—publication in journals is required). It's sufficient for an invention to have some difference from the prior art that's not obvious to a specialist in the field. In my experience obtaining patents for inventions (in the USSR) and patents for inventions (in the Russian Federation), examiners aren't particularly concerned with "inventive step." Using a Doppler frequency shift by rotating the propellers is perfectly reasonable, but not so obvious... Coming up with something like that requires thinking outside the box, in my opinion. Yes
                  1. 0
                    16 May 2026 11: 08
                    ))) In fact, all air defense systems that use Doppler shift for target selection—the S-125, for example—use this effect. The screen displays a helicopter, whether moving or hovering (i.e., the Doppler shift from the rotor is used in this case), and by adjusting the "Ground" knob, you can confirm that it's a helicopter and not a tank (the system can also fire at ground targets). So, they haven't invented anything new; it's all widely known and has long been used in air defense systems, which, strictly speaking, the APS system falls under.
                    In my experience obtaining inventor's certificates from the USSR, the examiners were very picky about what you were proposing (or at least I encountered some). At least, what's presented in this patent as the invention claims would definitely not have passed them, both in form and content.
                2. 0
                  15 May 2026 16: 23
                  In fact, the real problem with this invention is something else: drone propellers are often made of plastics or composites, not metals, so there won't be any reflection or frequency shift. I think that's why the patent is open, and such devices won't be manufactured. The patent was obtained for show; most likely, someone wanted it published—for a report or a dissertation...
                  It's entirely possible to use an acoustic sensor—the propellers' hum lies within a specific frequency range. Perhaps the same authors have patented exactly this principle, but in a closed application that will go into production.
                  1. 0
                    16 May 2026 11: 18
                    Regarding reflections. At our facility, a flock of crows was visible from 50 km away, and we realized it was a flock and not reflections from local objects by adjusting the "Ground" knob. It shifts the filter boundary, allowing us to estimate the object's approximate speed (close to zero, of course). Plastic also reflects (due to electronic bias, similar to dielectric antennas), but at high frequencies, it's much weaker than metal, of course. So, there's a chance, but the range will naturally drop.
  10. 0
    7 May 2026 21: 37
    What if the drone has an impeller instead of a propeller? We've seen those before, by the way. Overall, it's a rather primitive detection solution that clearly needs some additional support.
    1. 0
      8 May 2026 03: 54
      Quote: Saxahorse
      What if the drone has an impeller instead of a propeller?

      So the impeller will still have the same propellers, just covered. But the cost will skyrocket. And it's still unclear whether the drone will be controlled the same way, due to the difference in rotation speed, or whether the impellers will most likely have to be made movable.
      1. 0
        8 May 2026 20: 41
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        So the impeller will still have the same screws, just covered. But the cost will skyrocket.

        Google it. Quite a few drones like this have been made, especially ones that can maneuver through bushes and plantings without the propeller catching on branches. What would cause the drone to suddenly jump? What's the price of a plastic ring?

        And the screws are closed from scanning, so there is no Doppler effect.
        1. 0
          9 May 2026 05: 00
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Google it. Quite a few drones like this have been made, especially ones that can maneuver through bushes and plantings without the propeller catching on branches. What would cause the drone to suddenly jump? What's the price of a plastic ring?

          You confused the impeller with the protective ring.

          Quote: Saxahorse
          And the screws are closed from scanning, so there is no Doppler effect.
          It may be, but only from the side and front.
          1. 0
            9 May 2026 12: 56
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            You confused the impeller with the protective ring.

            Without a difference.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            It may be, but only from the side and front.

            Well, yes. But there is no rapid movement along the vertical axis, so there is no Doppler effect.
            1. 0
              9 May 2026 17: 02
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Without a difference.

              Of course there is a difference. At least in the length of the channel.
              1. +1
                9 May 2026 19: 52
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Of course there is a difference. At least in the length of the channel.

                That's why I wrote "impeller." So that the ring completely covers the blades.
                1. +1
                  11 May 2026 05: 02
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  That's why I wrote "impeller." So that the ring completely covers the blades.

                  Okay, the meaning is clear, the nitpicking is petty. hi
  11. +1
    8 May 2026 12: 16
    In my opinion, the problem lies higher up—in the philosophy of application. The author suggests biting a stick that hits you on the head. It's as if, during the Great Patriotic War, machine guns were mounted on tanks to protect them from bombs falling on them, to shoot down the bombs themselves. Then they acted wiser and sent fighter jets after the Junkers... wink Do you understand?
    I suggest we ask ourselves not why 20-40-50 drones are flying at a tank, but what the hell they are doing in such numbers over the battlefield... what
    1. 0
      8 May 2026 15: 06
      I agree!!! No one has ever asked this question like that!!!
    2. 0
      9 May 2026 13: 05
      Quote: tehnix
      I suggest we ask ourselves not why 20-40-50 drones are flying at a tank, but what the hell they are doing in such numbers over the battlefield...

      Actually, that's where we started. Electronic warfare, for example. And hunting down enemy crews quickly became a priority for many savvy commanders. However, this is hampered by the deep relocation of command and control to the rear, using repeaters.
      1. 0
        9 May 2026 18: 21
        Electronic warfare and crew hunting are all great, but there's also fiber optics, and in the near future, fully autonomous systems will appear. They've pulled some kind of crap out of Pandora's box... Like gnats... I think we need either EMP weapons or some kind of autonomous fighter drones.
        1. 0
          9 May 2026 20: 10
          Quote: tehnix
          They pulled some kind of crap out of Pandora's box... Like gnats... I think we need either an EMP weapon or some kind of autonomous fighter drones.

          That's right. Autonomous weapons are the very Pandora's box that drones have opened. Drones with auto-targeting capabilities don't care who they're attacking, whether it's civilians or even their own.

          Today, there's a dire shortage of high-quality drone detection tools. We can think of ways to shoot them down, whether it's a six-barreled small-bore rifle or a grenade from an automatic grenade launcher with a controlled detonation. The key is to quickly and accurately isolate the target from its surroundings. Some kind of hybrid sensor is probably needed here: sound, optics for movement, and radar or laser for trajectory refinement. Once automated systems quickly and accurately identify attacking drones appear, countering FPV will immediately become easier. Although, then I think we'll return to reusable drones that suddenly fire a missile from behind a bush or around a corner.
          1. 0
            11 May 2026 03: 33
            I don't know... Referring to the experience of the Great Patriotic War in the pre-radar era, aircraft were identified visually and by sound. An aircraft back then could fly through the clouds, for example, emerge, drop its bombs, and then reenter the clouds.
            For an autonomous or fiber-based, or generally "non-emitting," drone, I think it's infrared vision. The battery and motors are bound to get hot. Another issue is that a small drone is almost invisible against the natural backdrop. I often watch videos from the front, and it's hard to spot a slow-moving drone... But a trained operator can spot it quickly. But that's for the human eye. For infrared machine vision, it might not be a problem. And sound, although I don't know if you can hear a drone 100 meters away...
            Well, it's machine vision anyway. Maybe someday they'll discover some other drone detection features...
      2. 0
        9 May 2026 18: 28
        Or maybe spray some kind of solvent that corrodes plastic... Damn, with our nonsense we're creating a "high-molecular plague," like Lukyanenko wrote in his book "The Outpost"... sad let's create...
  12. 0
    12 May 2026 10: 43
    I reviewed the patent and came to some disappointing conclusions.
    Firstly, the applicant, the Machine-Building Design Bureau (Kolomna), is a fairly respected developer in the defense sector.
    Secondly, the team of authors consists of 12 people. This suggests that the experts devoted considerable time and effort to solving this issue.
    Third, the publication is open. This means the development failed to attract the attention of the Ministry of Defense, the customer, and will not be implemented.
    If this idea had been intended to be used for production, the patent would have been classified and would not have appeared in the public press.