On the shortcomings of the BMP-3 armor manufacturing technology

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On the shortcomings of the BMP-3 armor manufacturing technology

Aluminum armor, generally speaking, is quite capricious in terms of its production conditions. Any disruption to the manufacturing process or suboptimal choice of technology can lead to significant changes in its properties, which could impact the survivability and quality of armor protection made from aluminum-based alloys.

The BMP-3 also suffered from this to some extent, as discussed in an article by Russian researchers published in 1991. It described a new technology for manufacturing armor components for this vehicle (it's unclear whether it was subsequently adopted), but more importantly, it also highlighted the shortcomings of the existing technology. So, from a technical perspective, the material is quite interesting, so we recommend reading it.




Improved technology for heat treatment of BMP-3 hull parts


The first-generation BMP-1 and BMP-2 infantry fighting vehicles featured a welded steel hull with add-on components made of ATsM and D20 aluminum structural alloys. In contrast, the BMP-3's hull is constructed of aluminum armor with special armor. The use of aluminum allows for a 25% weight reduction compared to a steel hull with similar armor protection.

The first vehicle in domestic armored hull production with an aluminum hull (with a steel turret) was the BMD-1 airborne combat vehicle with bulletproof armor made of ABT-101 alloy with a thickness of 8...32 mm.

The new BMP-3 is the first Russian tank design to feature an all-aluminum hull and turret. The BMP-3's hull is equipped with ABT-102 aluminum bullet- and projectile-resistant armor. This armor alloy belongs to the Al-Zn-Mn system of deformable, heat-hardenable alloys (Author's Certificate No. 928271).

Armor properties are formed at all stages of production (casting, rolling, etc.), but the decisive stage is the heat treatment.

In the production of the BMD-1 hull, a heat treatment method is used, which consists of hardening the armor and subsequent two-stage aging of the plates and armor structures (Table 1).


Table 1

Unlike the BMD-1, the BMP-3 uses armor plates 10-60 mm thick. The armor hull and turret are welded from ABT-102 alloy, while the floor is made from stamped AMg6 blanks.

The armor differentiation is defined by the requirements specifications and imposes different requirements on the vehicle's front, side, and rear projections. Frontal projection components constitute a projectile-resistant group, rear components constitute a bullet-resistant group, and the sides constitute a mixed group. These conditions determine the mechanical properties (hardness) requirements for each of these component groups.

Thus, bulletproof resistance is directly dependent on the hardness H. As H increases, the speed of the limit of conditional damage Vпкп increases with a spread of up to 50 m/s (Fig. 1); to achieve this, it is necessary to ensure a hardness of ≥140 HB in the bulletproof group of components. Conversely, projectile resistance αпкп is inversely related to hardness (Fig. 2).


Fig. 1. Dependence of the speed limit of conditional damage Vпкп on the hardness and thickness b of the ABT-102 armor when firing a B32 bullet of 7,62 mm caliber at close range at normal: dark dots – hardness over 140 HB, light – not less than 140 HB


Fig. 2. Dependence of the projectile resistance αпкп when shelling the ABT-102 armor with 30-mm BT projectiles (distance 300 m) on the hardness H: dots – hardness > 140 HB, and triangles not less than 140 HB; the zone of the optimal value is shaded

In this case, the optimal value is a hardness below 140 HB. A mixed group of parts must balance both of these conflicting requirements and can be represented by a hardness close to 140 HB (Table 2).


Table 2. Optimum hardness of different groups of parts

An analysis of the existing heat treatment technology combining stage II aging with post-weld tempering reveals significant shortcomings. These include a discrepancy between the protective properties of components and their optimal values, as well as significant variation in properties between components of the same thickness but with different locations within the armor assembly.

The average hardness of various groups of parts obtained as a result of processing using existing technology, in comparison with the optimal hardness range, is presented in Table 3.


Table 3. Comparison of hardness by groups of parts (numerator – average values, denominator – spread)

The table is based on data from over 110 vehicles (220 measurements for each thickness). The dispersion was calculated as three times the variance. Therefore, the armor hardness is within the specified range with a 95% probability, and most components are outside the optimum range. The reduction in protective properties is explained by the combined heating of components of different purposes and different thicknesses (in a welded armor assembly) during the second stage of aging.

In order to eliminate the shortcomings of traditional technology, i.e. to obtain differentiated properties for groups of parts and to reduce the spread of mechanical properties, a technology for heat treatment of body parts was developed, which is protected by copyright certificate No. 236106 (Table 4).


Table 4. Heat treatment modes for body parts

The first stage of aging is performed to obtain the metal (ABT-102 alloy rolled product) in a state of maximum strength. The second stage is performed to re-age the metal and achieve differentiated armor properties, as well as corrosion resistance. Post-weld tempering of the assemblies is designed to relieve residual post-weld stresses of the first and second types, ensuring that the required strength and stress corrosion cracking resistance are met without altering the mechanical and armor properties achieved during the second stage of aging.

The technology research at the plant was carried out in three stages:

1. Post-weld “gentle” tempering of two hulls and towers to assess the reduction of residual stresses.

2. Heat treatment of ABT-102 cards in the II and III aging stages, simulating the mode of individual heat treatment, in order to clarify the temperature range and holding time based on the results of tests for armor resistance and hardness level.

3. Heat treatment using new technology.

Inspection of two hulls treated using the "gentle" tempering mode (stage 1 of testing), which passed running tests (after 10-12 months from the date of post-weld tempering), confirmed the effectiveness of post-weld stress relief and the absence of isolated and fatigue cracking.

The hardness of the sections processed using the sequential heat treatment technology (second inspection) was close to optimal, ensuring the required level of armor protection. Based on the results of the second stage, differentiated thickness-based aging modes were assigned for the second stage. Two hulls and turrets were processed using these modes. It turned out that the metal's properties are primarily determined during the second stage of aging.

The change in hardness resulting from post-weld tempering does not exceed the error limit of the Brinell method. Post-weld tempering ensured the required reduction in residual stress, preventing corrosion-induced cracking of the metal.

Testing of the cards with bullet and shell fire showed that the protective properties of all control cards meet the technical specifications. According to the αпкп criterion, a projectile resistance margin of approximately 2° was obtained. A certain margin of protective properties (Vпкп = 20–30 m/s) was also obtained under bullet fire.

Conclusion: Improved heat treatment technology for BMP-3 hull components improves their protective properties.

Source:
"Improved Technology of Heat Treatment of BMP-3 Hull Parts." A.A. Artsruni, V.R. Begichev, Yu.Z. Zasel'skiy, et al. "Bulletin of Armored Vehicles," No. 5, 1991.
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  1. 0
    April 29 2026 05: 49
    I wonder if this is something students are given to ponder at today's universities? Or is it essentially just information for information's sake?
  2. +5
    April 29 2026 06: 08
    Al-Zn-Mz correct the typo
    1. -2
      April 29 2026 09: 09
      Quote: Sensor
      Mz

      I'm not familiar with this chemical element. I know Mn is magnesium, used in aluminum armor alloy. wink
      1. +7
        April 29 2026 11: 13
        I know Mn is magnesium.
        Mn is manganese, not magnesium. Magnesium is Mg.
        1. +2
          April 29 2026 12: 19
          Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
          Mn is manganese

          Exactly... You're right. Memory is not eternal. It failed... lol The main thing is that Mz is not in the table.
      2. +3
        April 29 2026 13: 10
        The alloy in question belongs to the avial group; its strength, compared to that of D16T, is achieved through the formation of the intermetallic compound Mg2Si. Its long-term strength is 330–380 MPa, and its elongation is 8–12%.
        I googled it and found that the strongest alloys are the 7000 series Al-Zn-Mg-Cu with a tensile strength of 500-700 MPa.
        produced in China https://www.newayprecision.com/ru/services/3d-printing-prototyping/7000-series-aluminum
        However, there is an opinion

        https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/6a9noy/why_arent_7000_series_al_alloys_used_in/?tl=ru
        7000-series aluminum alloys were initially avoided because they were known to be susceptible to stress corrosion cracking (SCC), which, as far as I understand, was first noted in aircraft structures in the 40s and 50s. Many aging methods developed to reduce the susceptibility of 7000-Al to SCC had the added effect of reducing the alloy's strength. Other problems arose over the years, some of which had no immediately obvious causes.
        As you mentioned, the 7000 series has traditionally been poorly welded—in fact, the reason most 7000 series alloys are not recommended for structural welds is because the welding process tends to cause cracking. (I believe friction stir welding can produce good results, but it's a relatively recent development.)

        However, 7075 Al was at least used in at least one area of ​​the space shuttle!
  3. 0
    April 29 2026 08: 00
    The spread was calculated as three times the variance. Therefore, the armor hardness is within the specified range with a 95% probability, and most components are outside the optimum range.

    Some people create new technology, conduct field tests and implement it into production, while others take something ready-made and apply "statistics" to it... The main thing is to use smart words... triple dispersion, actually, this is a made-up expression here, there is an expression "triple dispersion", which is a mixture of three components, and triple dispersion is used here as statistics, taking into account three factors.
    There are lies, and there are statistics.
    1. +2
      April 29 2026 11: 01
      Quote: Konnick
      .triple dispersion, actually this is a made-up expression here, there is an expression "triple dispersion", which is a mixture of three components, and triple dispersion is used here as a statistic that takes into account three factors.

      Here, it is not a triple variance, but rather the usual variance of a random variable, multiplied by three.
  4. +1
    April 29 2026 08: 15
    Was it really necessary to conduct these “researches” to “prove” that post-weld tempering helps relieve welding stress?
    The "scientists" Atsruni, Begichev and Zaselsky are sitting there and wondering what else to do...oh, an idea, they've adopted the BMP-3 from the Kurgan plant, let's give them an extra vacation...and off go the salaries and dissertations.
    1. 0
      April 29 2026 11: 06
      Quote: Konnick
      Was it really necessary to conduct these “researches” to “prove” that post-weld tempering helps relieve welding stress?

      Bureaucracy, sir.
      Any change in technology must be justified. It must be proven somehow that the factory made a mistake, the armor's protective properties don't meet the requirements, and that money and time will have to be spent implementing new technology.
      1. -1
        April 29 2026 11: 15
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Quote: Konnick
        Was it really necessary to conduct these “researches” to “prove” that post-weld tempering helps relieve welding stress?

        Bureaucracy, sir.
        Any change in technology must be justified. It must be proven somehow that the factory made a mistake, the armor's protective properties don't meet the requirements, and that money and time will have to be spent implementing new technology.

        No, it's not about protection; armor resistance hasn't increased, but resistance to cracking in welds has increased.
      2. +1
        3 May 2026 19: 41
        The elders say that decades ago there were craftsmen who could process titanium so wonderfully that airplanes and submarines were made from it.
  5. -2
    April 29 2026 08: 40
    The armor must be steel. Airborne assaults were cancelled long ago.
    1. +1
      April 29 2026 09: 15
      Quote: novel xnumx
      The armor must be steel. Airborne assaults were cancelled long ago.

      I believe the goal was air delivery without airdrops and the design's buoyancy. However, today, firstly, we see a trend toward increasing the caliber of weapons in equivalent vehicles of potential adversaries and a lack of practical examples of crossing water obstacles during combat. I think today's MSD could retain one MSD equipped with a BMP-3, and the other two could be mounted on heavy infantry fighting vehicles with protection against 40mm high-ballistic projectiles.
    2. 0
      April 29 2026 09: 20
      So, it’s impossible to achieve the required armor resistance with aluminum?
      A thick aluminum base shielded by something very hard looks more promising.
      1. 0
        April 29 2026 09: 37
        Quote: garri-lin
        So, it’s impossible to achieve the required armor resistance with aluminum?
        A thick aluminum base shielded by something very hard looks more promising.

        Aluminum armor is 25% lighter than equivalent steel armor
        1. -4
          April 29 2026 09: 57
          So what? Battleships, all made of steel, sailed just fine. But delivering a few corpses to the other side, due to the insufficient armor, was a rather dubious undertaking.
          1. -1
            April 29 2026 10: 04
            Quote: novel xnumx
            So what? Battleships, all made of steel, sailed just fine. But delivering a few corpses to the other side, due to the insufficient armor, was a rather dubious undertaking.

            Are you reading this carefully? To make a steel hull comparable to an aluminum one, its weight would have to be 25% heavier. And as for battleships...they don't build them anymore, but yachts and boats are made of aluminum.
            And it's even better to have the ability to swim than not to swim, but with the same armor resistance.
            1. -1
              April 29 2026 11: 28
              Quote: Konnick
              In order to make a steel case comparable to an aluminum one, its weight would have to be 25% heavier.

              It's not all that simple. Those 25% are considered a plus for aluminum armor, as it resists shrapnel better (greater thickness for the same weight). And once upon a time, it was believed that the primary purpose of an infantry fighting vehicle was to transport infantry under inaccurate enemy howitzer fire (shrapnel).

              However, the situation has now changed significantly, and the main enemy of the IFV is drones with cumulative or high-explosive warheads, and against these threats, aluminum armor has no advantage, and is even inferior. sad

              As for the ability to "swim," it's better not to have it. Even a perfectly amphibious infantry fighting vehicle can't navigate an unprepared riverbank. And don't tempt short-sighted commanders; there have been cases of such foolish losses.
              1. +2
                April 29 2026 17: 53
                Netl(Alex) BMP cannot get out onto an unprepared river bank.
                The BMP should not go out onto an unprepared shore.
                There are many sandy sea beaches, strips, bays, straits and other places in the world where it goes well, and for successful success in business production of cars with competitive prices the volume of production is required, and whose flag is painted on the side of the car - It practically doesn't matter.
                If we talk about rivers - about our theater of military operations, then immediately keep in mind the pluses and cross-country ability, self-recovery capability, and towing capabilities - After all, your stone is cast against aluminum in general, am I correct? And it offers all these advantages.
                the river can be crossed near the broken crossing in the shallow depth of your defense (the opportunity to prepare the bank), as well as on areas of the coast selected by reconnaissance, as it should be.
                1. +1
                  April 29 2026 19: 19
                  Quote: Disant
                  your stone is cast against aluminum in general

                  Not specifically against aluminum, but against hopelessly outdated requirements for providing unnecessary buoyancy, sacrificing normal protection for its sake.

                  Quote: Disant
                  cross-country ability, self-recovery capability, and towing capabilities

                  IMHO, cross-country ability is the only compelling argument for a lightweight vehicle. However, if the buoyancy requirements are removed, cross-country ability can be improved in other ways without sacrificing protection. For example, engine power, improved transmission, track width, etc.

                  Quote: Disant
                  the river can be crossed near the broken crossing in the shallow depth of your defense

                  It's possible, but there's no point. If our sappers have the opportunity to work, they'll build some kind of crossing. There's no point in preparing vehicles for a dubious voyage. And if the area is under enemy fire, they'll be especially careful. And vehicles that have lost speed and maneuverability are especially easy prey. That's why there are currently no successful examples of crossing. request

                  Quote: Disant
                  for successful success in the business of machine manufacturing

                  IMHO, there's no point in hoping for successful exports of the BMP 3 after the SVO. Because in addition to its extremely inadequate protection, another critical flaw has emerged. Soldiers are forced to sit next to 100mm high-explosive shells for the BMP 3's main gun. And enemy drones are precisely aiming for the ammunition. The ammunition boxes are exploding from the inside. Moreover, this 100mm gun is useless in modern combat; soldiers would be much better supported by either direct drones or their own artillery, guided from a nearby bird's eye view. sad
                  1. +1
                    April 29 2026 23: 33
                    For example, engine power, transmission improvements, track width, etc.

                    That's not quite our way. Engines, transmissions... we're not very good at that.
                    But wider tracks - that's true.
                    1. +1
                      April 30 2026 00: 17
                      tsvetahaki(Al) This isn't quite our path. Engines, transmissions...
                      Actually, it's on the BMP-3 hydrostatic transmission, and the car is very fast.
                      But wider tracks - that's true.
                      What's so good about Soviet/Russian cars in the first place is the best chassis in the world - reliable and repairable. Our track doesn't fall apart. Belt replacement specifications - the warranty mileage is very high.
                      1. +2
                        April 30 2026 06: 04
                        The discussion was about significantly increasing the weight of the vehicle while improving the armor - using steel.
                        So, no matter what the BMP-3 engine/transmission is, if it is 25% heavier, new ones are needed.
                        The departed high-tech civilization did not leave us a suitable match, so we will have to make a new one.
                      2. 0
                        1 May 2026 03: 01
                        Rostec's press service stated that the UTD-29's modernization potential has not been exhausted.
                        A new engine was also developed. It features turbocharging and a fan-cooled system. Compared to the previous generation, it offers greater power and increased torque.
                        The capacity of the new UTD-32T is 660 hp
                        The weight of the new engine increased by 7%.
                        Specific power - 37,2 hp per ton.
                        August 2025
                  2. 0
                    5 August 2026 22: 30
                    They forget that the 25% lighter weight is not due to the weight of the IFV, but to the weight of the hull. Overall, the weight savings are about 5%, even with all the associated headaches.
              2. +1
                April 29 2026 17: 53
                Netl(Alex)
                And there is no need to tempt short-sighted commanders; there have been cases of such stupid losses.
                That is, the vehicles were hit because they were unable to get to the other bank, are you saying that?
                and if they were just banal damaged by enemy fire during the crossing, or unprepared for the crossing - You don't take this into account?
                1. +2
                  April 29 2026 19: 25
                  Quote: Disant
                  The cars were hit because they couldn't get to the other side.

                  Not necessarily damaged. There have been cases of depressurization, and vehicles have sunk (and the longer a vehicle is in use, the more leaks it has). I've read about vehicles simply floating in the river, unable to get out.

                  But the main thing is that there are no examples of successful use of the BMP-3's amphibious capabilities. That is, they made enormous sacrifices for buoyancy, but received only disadvantages in return. sad
                  1. +1
                    April 30 2026 00: 06
                    Netl(Alex), please note that all your arguments are directed against buoyancy in favor of protection first and foremost.
                    But for the past year and a half, they've been making infantry fighting vehicles with a steel hull and add-on armor. Aluminum should also have add-on armor welded onto it, in theory.
                    and this is - modularity, and in this case it is not bad, since it works better against fresh threats - drones, due to the armor dispersion.

                    The soldiers have to sit next to 100 mm high-explosive shells for the BMP 3 gun.
                    All this is empty slander.
                    The shells in the BMP-3 land on the bottom like a "tablet," and not like in the BMD-3 - upright around the turret.. this is one.

                    secondly, this is again modularity, and this time she excellent!
                    here, the excess power of the combat module is magnificent-
                    The BMP can be used as a classic BMP = landing + 100mm shells + 30mm shells, or without 100mm shells, or Without a landing party with 100mm shells - like a mobile weapon! And the crew commander - with a drone., or third-party guidance.
                    The crew fired overhead fire very vigorously.
                    1. +1
                      April 30 2026 09: 41
                      Quote: Disant
                      In theory, add-on armor should also be welded onto aluminum.
                      and this is modularity

                      The saddest part is that the upper part, the most vulnerable to drones, is not armored due to the risk of raising the center of gravity of a light vehicle and the presence of instruments, hatches, etc. above. Only grills are installed, but they are easily penetrated. So the extreme vulnerability to the main threats, inherent in the design, remains.

                      BUT "modularity"It's like if you bought a car with a hole in the floor. You complained to the factory, and they screwed a rivet onto the bolts. Modularity, damn! If you want something extreme, you can foolishly unscrew it back! sad

                      Quote: Disant
                      The shells in the BMP-3 land on the bottom like a "tablet"

                      And...? You didn't finish the conclusion,
                      Is it comfortable for a paratrooper to go on a mission knowing his backside is literally lined with explosives? Or haven't you seen photos and videos of BMP-3s exploding from the inside? sad

                      Quote: Disant
                      landing + 100mm shells + 30mm shells

                      This option means that the first time a drone hits, instead of a small, simple hole from a cumulative charge, there is a high risk of detonating the ammunition inside and causing a mass grave of infantry. sad

                      Quote: Disant
                      without landing troops with 100mm shells - like a mobile weapon

                      For enemy operators, the FPV is a "wandering" device, just a laugh. It's a highly visible, weakly protected target, effective at ranges far shorter than their drones. And if not direct fire, it's also extremely inaccurate.

                      Quote: Disant
                      It is possible without 100mm shells,

                      The only viable option in today's conditions is to remove all ammunition, bait as much as possible, and hope the vehicle can withstand a few drone hits before landing troops. Yes

                      But to save the lives of our troops, we need a completely different vehicle with a much higher level of protection from the start. It needs no onboard explosive charges, and it also needs a larger troop compartment, since modern infantry is loaded with all sorts of equipment. request
                      1. +1
                        1 May 2026 03: 22
                        A completely different machine with a much higher level of protection is needed from the start.
                        Gut a tank and load troops into it. Nothing will change. Drones will stop it just the same. A bolted-on carrot will pierce the turret through the sides, and the route options will be even more limited.
                        Specific ground pressure of the T-72/BMP-3 tank is 0.83/0.6
                        Protection is provided not only by armor, but also by speed.

                        Six months ago, they showed off a new engine – 660 hp. It will also allow for expanded installation of add-on protective systems and armor elements.
                      2. -1
                        1 May 2026 14: 30
                        Quote: Disant
                        gut the tank and put troops in it. Nothing will change.

                        It will change. A well-trapped tank like the "barn" or the newer "bush" type can withstand over 30 drone hits. For the BMP-3, a couple of drones is usually enough. It's important to consider that the HEAT jet's stream length is approximately 10 times the crater diameter. This means it's difficult to achieve a stream longer than a meter. Therefore, any barriers spaced more than a meter from the main armor are effective. However, the BMP-3 has two problems that a tank doesn't have. The lightweight design means you can't add much armor on top, otherwise it'll flip over (the damn buoyancy requirement), and the engine is weak (you simply can't add much). A tank (and heavy infantry fighting vehicles based on a tank chassis) have fewer of these problems. Although, of course, given new experience, the frontal armor needs to be thinned and the upper hemisphere armor increased.

                        Quote: Disant
                        Protection is provided not only by armor, but also by speed

                        I think you're right about that. A tank or an infantry fighting vehicle are both extremely easy targets for a drone. Electric dirt bikes, by the way, have proven themselves effective for delivering infantry in modern conditions. That's not an easy target. Electric buggies would probably be a good option, too.

                        So, based on the experience of the Air Defense Forces, the task of transporting troops can be solved either by significantly increasing protection (to withstand multiple hits) or by making the vehicle extremely fast, maneuverable, and quiet. In my opinion, the BMP-3 cannot be improved in any of the areas relevant to the Air Defense Forces' experience. It's a dead-end vehicle and should be abandoned. sad
                      3. 0
                        1 May 2026 17: 12
                        But the BMP-3 has two problems that a tank doesn't have. The design is lightweight, you can't hang too much on top, otherwise it'll flip over (damn it). buoyancy requirement) and weak engine (you just can’t hang a lot)

                        Alex, I wrote to you - new engine they start installing.
                        Buoyancy is a huge plus, and the vehicle is prepared for the task before crossing a water obstacle. Does it really cross a sea or river in combat conditions every day? Well, they'll remove part of the upper barbecue armor belt—no problem there. but you don’t offer an alternative! who will challenge?
                        and the plant is alive and kicking because it once took on import orders. because the car is universal (for the fifth time).
                        again Buoyancy does not affect anything in terms of deterioration of performance characteristics - on the contrary - THIS IS EXCELLENT DESIGN WORK!It's as if you read something negative and convincing and are broadcasting it. It's clear that a universal key is worse than specialized keys for each size, but that's not the case.
                        Bradleys and M113s are also covered in armor plates over aluminum, but there's clearly nothing to remove and make them afloat. We have both aluminum and steel BMP-3 hulls. That's great. If you're bothered by the paratrooper's equipment, it's simple: reduce the number of paratroopers by one vehicle and increase the number of vehicles in the unit.
                        If I were you, I would reconsider my position, because it causes nothing but surprise.
                      4. +1
                        1 May 2026 17: 35
                        Quote: Disant
                        Buoyancy is a huge plus...
                        It's worth recalling the recent incident during maneuvers in the Baltics, where the Americans sank in a swamp along with their armored personnel carrier. In a similar case, the BMP-3 would have simply gotten stuck without fatal consequences (it wouldn't have sunk in the swamp).
                      5. -1
                        3 May 2026 05: 15
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        In such a case, the BMP-3 would simply get stuck.

                        She would likely have sunk the same way, since buoyancy isn't a constant feature there. To ensure it, the crew would have to go to great lengths to carefully seal all the cracks. But in the situation described, they weren't thinking about that; they simply got lost.

                        But the point is that the main losses of BMPs now come not from drowning, but from drones with shaped-charge warheads attacking from above. And it is precisely against these main threats that the BMP-3 is completely defenseless. sad
                      6. 0
                        3 May 2026 12: 47
                        Quote: Netl
                        It would likely have sunk the same way, since buoyancy isn't a constant feature there. To ensure it, the crew would have to go to great lengths to carefully seal all the cracks.
                        And where are the gaps located on the BMP-3 that need to be sealed before crossing water obstacles?
                      7. 0
                        4 May 2026 09: 26
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        gaps that need to be sealed before water obstacles?

                        This is standard:
                        Aging of rubber sealsOver time, rubber hardens, cracks, and loses its elasticity. This affects not only hatches but also shaft seals, water jet seals, and drain plug gaskets.
                        Corrosion and metal fatigue: pitting corrosion or microcracks may occur, especially at welded seams and on the bottom.
                        Mechanical damage to the bottomOver the years, the vehicle frequently runs over rocks, stumps, and rebar. This can lead to deformation of the underbody sheets and leaks at the attachment points or around the drain holes.

                        And the above (the consequence of exploitation) is in addition to the most obvious:
                        Hatches and doors: The tightness of the closure of the crew hatches, the landing hatches on the roof and the aft doors is checked.
                        Drain holes: All drain plugs and valves in the bottom of the housing, which are normally used to remove water or technical liquids, are closed.
                        Embrasures for shooting: The embrasure flaps must be tightly closed and secured.
                        Turret ring and gun mantlet seals: Before forcing, the integrity of the protective covers and seals is checked.

                        Somehow request
                      8. 0
                        4 May 2026 13: 09
                        It seems you haven't served in the Army. In peacetime, military equipment in the condition you described is unheard of, as it spends virtually its entire life in storage bays, never being driven, and only undergoing maintenance: dusting, checking oil and coolant levels, occasionally removing batteries for maintenance at the battery room, and then replacing them. The condition of the equipment is constantly checked. Armored vehicles leave their storage bays once every few months (for regimental exercises, etc.). Unit training and exercises are conducted not on the equipment assigned to them, but on specially designated so-called "training" tanks, infantry fighting vehicles... But even among training vehicles, I haven't seen anything so broken down in my four years in the Army, even though I'm involved with it. This is civilian equipment under a bad owner, it can be brought to such a state that it leaks like a sieve, but in the Army this is hardly possible, since equipment in poor condition can be a serious reprimand.
                        This is my personal opinion, based on personal experience. Let me repeat: the condition of armored vehicles in peacetime. I don't know what the condition of the vehicles in Ukraine is, but I've seen what they're like in Afghanistan.
                      9. 0
                        4 May 2026 14: 23
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        But even among the training equipment, I have never seen such a broken-down one in 4 years of the Army

                        How can this be seen with the naked eye?
                        The BMP-3 Technical Operation Manual (TOM) specifies that the hull must be checked for leaks when preparing the vehicle for afloat. The "rolling" method is a field method for fulfilling this requirement if it is not possible to test the hull with excess pressure.

                        And this must be done precisely after the aforementioned sealing measures have been completed. I think statistics on the BMP-3's use are unlikely to be disclosed, but such points are usually written in blood, and not for the crew's amusement.

                        However, as I mentioned above, in any case, the number of sunken vehicles is incomparable to those damaged by shaped-charge shells. And it's necessary to ensure maximum protection against precisely those threats that cause the greatest losses. Yes
                      10. 0
                        4 May 2026 15: 06
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        But even among the training equipment, I have never seen such a broken-down one in 4 years of the Army,

                        Quote: Netl
                        How can this be seen with the naked eye?
                        Firstly, if a vehicle is constantly in use, the constant presence of dirt inside the vehicle is detrimental to the crew. And dirt can only get inside if there are no hatches. Let me explain: all armored vehicles have one thing in common: to access a fuel tank filler or a component that requires maintenance, you first have to remove a section of armor and then forget to replace it—you'd have to be a complete idiot. Specifically, the BMP-3 has injection cooling. The radiator and exhaust system are in the same trough. Even if you pour water from a fire hose into the radiator, it will flow out the exhaust pipe and into the street, never reaching the vehicle. Areas requiring maintenance are covered with hatches or bolted covers. The road wheel rockers enter the armored hull through rubber gaskets, which are serviced only during medium or major repairs. And where are the cracks that need to be sealed?
                      11. 0
                        4 May 2026 17: 26
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        can only get inside if there are no hatches

                        Why should they be missing? It could simply be a small gap, cracked old rubber on the gasket, etc. A crack along the seam may even be painted over, but water will still find a way through.

                        I've already written above that the separate clause on preparation for afloat in the Technical Manual, which includes mandatory inspections, couldn't have been written just for fun. In my opinion, there's no point in arguing with the people who wrote this document; it should be followed. Yes
                      12. 0
                        4 May 2026 17: 45
                        Quote: Netl
                        Why should they be missing? It could simply be a small gap, cracked old rubber on the gasket, etc. A crack along the seam may even be painted over, but water will still find a way through.
                        Are you writing this about armored vehicles?
                      13. 0
                        4 May 2026 17: 53
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        Are you writing this about armored vehicles?

                        You seem ready to discuss anything, boasting about your experience along the way, except for the main thing:
                        1) Buoyancy does not allow for sufficient strengthening of protection against cumulative projectiles in the upper hemisphere (the main threat now)
                        2) The clause on sealing and its mandatory testing is rightly included in the Technical Manual. Yes
                      14. 0
                        4 May 2026 21: 42
                        Quote: Netl
                        1) Buoyancy does not allow for sufficient strengthening of protection against cumulative projectiles in the upper hemisphere (the main threat now)
                        Based on what data was it concluded that the buoyancy of the vehicle prevents this protection from being implemented?
                        Quote: Netl
                        2) The clause on sealing and its mandatory testing is rightly included in the Technical Manual.
                        Where do I say that this shouldn’t be done?

                        In response to my comment
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        The Americans drowned in the swamp along with their armored personnel carrier. In a similar case, the BMP-3 would have simply gotten stuck without any fatal consequences.
                        You have expressed your opinion
                        Quote: Netl
                        Most likely, she would have drowned as well, because Buoyancy is not a permanent option there.
                        Can you explain the basis on which you are making this claim?
                      15. +1
                        5 May 2026 09: 25
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        Based on what data was it concluded that the buoyancy of the vehicle prevents this protection from being implemented?

                        This is because the measures that provide sufficient protection from a shaped-charge charge from above significantly increase the vehicle's weight, which contradicts the buoyancy requirement. Furthermore, the chassis (weak engine and gearbox) and layout (risk of rollover when installing additional protection from above) were designed specifically for a lightweight vehicle, which is lightweight because it was designed to float.

                        The existing options for doing anything without changing the base are essentially neutered and offer no significant improvement in protection. This is confirmed by the virtual absence of combat use of the BMP-3 in the Northern Military District recently.

                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        Buoyancy is not a permanent option there.
                        Can you explain on what basis?

                        I've already written several times that, based on the relevant section of the Technical Manual, before each entry into the water, you must complete the described set of measures, including sealing and subsequent inspection. Otherwise, there is a high risk of drowning. sad
                      16. -1
                        5 May 2026 11: 37
                        Quote: Netl
                        Based on the fact that those measures that provide sufficient protection from the cumulative charge from above greatly increase the weight of the vehicle.
                        That is, not based on any data, but purely your theory.

                        Quote: Netl
                        Before each entry into the water, it is necessary to carry out a set of described measures, including sealing and subsequent inspection.
                        Even a simple car should be checked before an important or long trip. Checking a car before driving it into water is a perfectly reasonable recommendation, as thinking everything is fine and knowing for sure are two completely different things. And this rule doesn't mean the car isn't ready for water. Checking is a good idea, but preparing it for water is a bad idea, as it should always be ready for water.
                      17. +1
                        5 May 2026 14: 18
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        purely your theory

                        Of course, this theory isn't mine. And the theory of countering shaped-charge warheads has been studied quite thoroughly since WWII. The main methods are:
                        Thick composite armor, high-quality ERA, and various types of screens. A combination is preferable.

                        But, of course, there's more to it than just theory. If you search for "tank withstood FPV hits," you'll get a ton of links about how well-protected tanks withstood over 20 and even over 30 hits. Although modern tanks have superior frontal protection, and drones attack from above, tanks are still much better protected from above than infantry fighting vehicles. So, the theory is clearly confirmed by the most current practices in the NVO.

                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        Check - yes, prepare for sailing - no

                        Your logic is perfectly understandable. But the Technical Manual specifically states to first perform the listed set of sealing measures and only then check. And there's no reason to doubt the validity of what the Technical Manual states. Yes
                      18. -1
                        5 May 2026 15: 46
                        Quote: Netl
                        If you type in a search engine "tank withstood hits fpv"
                        We're not talking about a tank, but an infantry fighting vehicle (IFV), whose mission is to bring infantry into position and support them with fire. To protect vehicles from drones, a net, which doesn't weigh a ton, is sufficient. And if you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that the BMP-3 comes with this protection straight from the factory. There are variants that can be equipped with electronic warfare equipment (the customer decides whether to include it). Covering an IFV with additional armor from above is foolish; it will lose mobility and be finished off by artillery, which is dangerous even for tanks.
                        Quote: Netl
                        But the Technical Manual clearly states that the listed set of sealing measures must first be carried out, and only then checked.
                        Can you list them so that everyone understands that the BMP-3 will sink in water without preliminary preparation?
                      19. +1
                        5 May 2026 18: 01
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        We're not talking about a tank.

                        I think there is no point in further discussion.
                        You won! Yes
                      20. 0
                        3 May 2026 06: 37
                        Quote: Disant
                        THIS IS AN EXCELLENT DESIGN WORK

                        What does design have to do with it? The designers fulfilled the requirements they were given. The point is that, based on the experience of the SVO, buoyancy is unnecessary and even detrimental, since it doesn't significantly increase protection.

                        And you couldn't come up with a situation where it could be useful in the face of drone dominance. And the main thing, and not just a fantasy, is that in four years of the Air Defense Forces, there are no real examples of the BMP-3 successfully crossing water obstacles using its buoyancy. And without any substantiation, you simply repeat obsessively that this is a good thing, apparently on the principle of halva. sad

                        Quote: Disant
                        Bradley, M113 are also covered in

                        These vehicles were also designed for completely different conditions, and back then, howitzer fire over large areas was also considered the primary threat. They just didn't think to surround the paratroopers with high-explosive shells. But in any case, what's needed now is a completely different vehicle, one designed from the ground up to withstand high-explosive shells from above. Yes

                        Quote: Disant
                        It's simple here - reduce the landing force by one vehicle

                        This will "simply" lead to a change in the number of vehicles per squad and above. The organization and supply system will be disrupted. But most importantly, it won't solve the problem. Since the BMP-3 is low (they were afraid of grenade launchers in the 70s), a modern, large soldier with equipment will have to be taken down sideways, at best. sad

                        As I already wrote, no matter where you look in the BMP-3, everything is outdated and not capable of modernization taking into account the experience of the Air Defense Forces sad
                      21. -2
                        1 May 2026 17: 27
                        A well-trapped "barn"-type tank or the newer "bush"-type can withstand over 30 drone hits. For the BMP-3, a couple of drones is usually enough.

                        Well, put a bush on the BMP - it will withstand hits almost as well as a heavy BMP without dynamic protection - the spaced armor will mitigate the impact of the high-explosive, and against a carrot, the armor of the BMP-3 and the heavy BMP is indistinguishable. You just have to hit the BMP-3 - the silhouette of the heavy BMP will be significantly larger.
                      22. 0
                        2 May 2026 15: 56
                        Quote: Disant
                        Put a bush on a BMP and it will take a beating almost as well

                        No, I already wrote above that it will either flip over or get stuck due to the engine's weakness. Even a new engine only increases power by about 20%, which will only reduce its current mobility when upgrading, but not when carrying a heavy load.

                        In addition, the BMP-3's armor on top is so weak (15 mm of aluminum alloy) that even a greatly weakened cumulative jet can easily penetrate it.

                        Based on the experience of the Air Defense Forces, no matter what you do with the BMP-3, it's useless. Under current conditions, it's a completely useless vehicle with no way to fix it. sad
                  2. 0
                    5 August 2026 22: 32
                    For example, tanks need to be coated every time before being used on the bottom. But they still leak and need to be pumped out.
                    I think the sealant in the BMP also doesn't last forever.
        2. -1
          April 29 2026 10: 25
          I know that.
          That's why I'm talking about prospects.
        3. 0
          April 29 2026 17: 12
          The BMD's armor, after being hit by a 30x165 projectile, actually acts like plasticine, slowing it down.
          There might not be a penetration, but in reality, the BMD needs to be sent to a repair plant to have these armor plates replaced. The design is a one-time use vehicle.
          unlike the IFV based on a tank with steel armor + spaced ceramics at 55 mm
          A 30mm shell won't even reach the hull.
          It's a controversial issue, if it's about economics
          The BMP-3M costs 85 million rubles, the T-72B3M tank 250 million rubles.
      2. +3
        April 29 2026 10: 20
        Quote: garri-lin
        A thick aluminum base shielded by something very hard looks more promising.
        This is exactly what is done with the BMP-3.
        The BMP-3's frontal armor is a layered composite of 10 mm steel (BT-70Sh), a 70 mm air gap, 12 mm steel, and 60 mm aluminum (ABT-102). The turret is 16 mm steel, 70 mm air gap, and 50 mm aluminum.
        1. 0
          April 29 2026 16: 21
          Now imagine scaling this "pie" two and a half times and adding Dynamic Defense.
          Why not TBTR/TBMP?
    3. +2
      April 29 2026 11: 35
      The Bradley BMP has an aluminum body, just like the M113 BTR.
      1. 0
        April 29 2026 13: 44
        Quote: bushmaster
        Aluminum body, like the M113 BTR
        Complement
  6. 0
    April 29 2026 15: 15
    And how relevant is this kind of armor today?
  7. 0
    5 August 2026 20: 57
    More headache than benefit.

    How much does the BMP3 hull weigh? It's about 4 tons, as far as I remember. A 25% weight savings is about 1 ton for a vehicle weighing over 20 tons. The overall weight savings are less than 5%.
    Is this rigmarole worth it? Manufacturing complexity, high cost, difficult repairs, and, again, the aluminum body is prone to fires—that was clear even with the Afnan and the BMD.

    I think it was all about the amphibious aspect again. Although, if, for example, you removed the turret and 100mm gun and made a 30mm module, you could save more weight and make it out of steel.
    Although personally I am in favor of the Bradley-like design - it has proven itself, so as I said - it needs to be based on a tank, our tanks are initially small - the track is basically like a Bradley.