Military Review

Why the moon scammers can not do RD-180? Interview of Academician Boris Katorgin

96
Creator of the world's best liquid-propellant rocket engines, academician Boris Katorgin, explains why Americans still cannot repeat our achievements in this field and how to preserve the Soviet head start in the future


Why the moon scammers can not do RD-180? Interview of Academician Boris Katorgin

21 June at the St. Petersburg Economic Forum was the awarding of the winners of the Global Energy Prize. The authoritative commission of industry experts from different countries selected three applications from the submitted 639 and named the laureates of the 2012 award of the year, which is already customarily called the “Nobel for power engineers”. As a result, 33 million premium rubles this year were shared by the famous inventor from the UK, Professor Rodney John Allam and two of our outstanding scientists - RAS Academicians Boris Katorgin and Valery Kostyuk.

All three have to do with the creation of cryogenic technology, the study of the properties of cryogenic products and their use in various power plants. Academician Boris Katorgin was awarded "for the development of high-performance liquid-propellant rocket engines on cryogenic fuels, which, with high energy parameters, ensure the reliable operation of space systems for the peaceful use of space." With the direct participation of Katorgina, who had devoted more than fifty years to the OKB-456 enterprise, now known as NPO Energomash, liquid rocket engines (LRE) were created, whose performance is now considered the best in the world. Katorgin himself was engaged in the development of schemes for the organization of the working process in engines, the mixing of fuel components and the elimination of pulsations in the combustion chamber. Also known for his fundamental work on nuclear rocket engines (YARD) with high specific impulses and developments in the field of creating high-power continuous chemical lasers.

In the most difficult times for Russian science-intensive organizations, from 1991 to 2009, Boris Katorgin headed NPO Energomash, combining the positions of general director and general designer, and managed not only to retain the company, but also to create a number of new engines. The lack of internal order for engines forced Katorgin to search for a customer in the external market. One of the new engines was the RD-180, developed in 1995 year specifically for the tender organized by Lockheed Martin, an American corporation, which chose the liquid propellant rocket engine for the Atlas launch vehicle that was being modernized. As a result, Energomash signed an agreement to supply the 101 engine and by the beginning of the 2012 of the year had already supplied more than 60 LREs to the US, of which 35 had successfully worked on the Atlas systems for various satellites.

Before the presentation of the Expert prize, he talked with Academician Boris Katorgin about the state and prospects of development of liquid rocket engines and found out why the engines based on the development of 40 years ago are still considered innovative, and the RD-180 could not be recreated at American factories.

- Boris Ivanovich, what exactly is your merit in creating domestic liquid jet engines, and which are now considered the best in the world?

- To explain this to a non-specialist, you probably need a special skill. For LRE I developed combustion chambers, gas generators; in general, he led the creation of the engines themselves for the peaceful exploration of outer space. (In the combustion chambers, the fuel and the oxidizer are mixed and burning, and a volume of hot gases is formed, which, then ejected through the nozzles, create the jet propulsion itself; into the same combustion chamber. - “Expert.”)

- You are talking about the peaceful conquest of space, although it is obvious that all engines from a few dozen to 800 tons, which were created in NPO "Energomash", were intended primarily for military purposes.

- We didn’t have to drop a single atomic bomb, we didn’t deliver a single nuclear charge to the target on our missiles, and thank God. All military developments went into a peaceful space. We can be proud of the huge contribution of our rocket and space technology to the development of human civilization. Thanks to cosmonautics, whole technological clusters were born: space navigation, telecommunications, satellite television, sensing systems.

- The engine for the intercontinental ballistic missile P-9, on which you worked, then formed the basis of almost all of our manned program.

- At the end of 1950-x, I carried out computational and experimental work to improve the mixing in the combustion chambers of the RD-111 engine, which was intended for that same rocket. The results of the work are still used in modified RD-107 and RD-108 engines for the same Soyuz rocket; about two thousand space flights, including all manned programs, were performed on them.

- Two years ago I interviewed your colleague, the winner of Global Energy, Academician Alexander Leontyev. In a conversation about closed to the general public specialists, whom Leontyev himself once was, he mentioned Vitaly Ievlev, who also did a lot for our space industry.

- Many academics working for the defense industry were classified - this is a fact. Now much is declassified - this is also a fact. I know Alexander Ivanovich very well: he worked on the creation of calculation methods and methods for cooling the combustion chambers of various rocket engines. It was not easy to solve this technological problem, especially when we began to squeeze the chemical energy of the fuel mixture as much as possible to obtain the maximum specific impulse, increasing among other measures the pressure in the combustion chambers to 250 atmospheres. Take our most powerful engine - RD-170. Fuel consumption with an oxidizer - kerosene with liquid oxygen passing through the engine - 2,5 tons per second. Heat flows in it reach 50 megawatts per square meter - this is huge energy. The temperature in the combustion chamber - 3,5 thousands of degrees Celsius. It was necessary to come up with a special cooling for the combustion chamber, so that it could work out calculatedly and withstand the thermal pressure. Alexander Ivanovich did just that, and, I must say, he worked on glory. Vitaly Mikhailovich Ievlev - Corresponding Member of the Russian Academy of Sciences, Doctor of Technical Sciences, Professor, unfortunately, died quite early, - was a scientist of the widest profile, possessed encyclopedic erudition. Like Leontyev, he worked a lot on the method of calculating high-stressed thermal structures. Their work intersected somewhere, integrated somewhere, and as a result, an excellent technique was obtained by which one can calculate the heat density of any combustion chambers; Now, perhaps using it, any student can do it. In addition, Vitaly Mikhailovich took an active part in the development of nuclear, plasma rocket engines. Here our interests intersected in those years when Energomash was doing the same.

- In our conversation with Leontyev, we touched on the topic of selling energy mash engines RD-180 in the USA, and Alexander Ivanovich said that in many ways this engine is the result of developments that were made just during the creation of RD-170, and in a sense half. Is this really the result of reverse scaling?

- Any engine in a new dimension is, of course, a new device. RD-180 with a 400 ton load is really two times smaller than a 170 RD with 800 ton weight. In the RD-191, designed for our new Angara missile, the thrust is 200 tons. What do these engines have in common? All of them have one turbopump each, but the RD-170 has four combustion chambers, the “American” RD-180 has two chambers, and the RD-191 has one. Each engine needs its own turbopump unit - because if a four-chamber RD-170 consumes about 2,5 tons of fuel per second, for which a 180 turbine pump of thousands of kilowatts was developed, for example, more than twice the capacity of the reactor of the Arktika atomic icebreaker, the two-chamber RD-180 is only half, 1,2 tons. I participated directly in the development of turbo-pumps for X-Rum-180 and RD-191, and at the same time led the development of these engines as a whole.

- The combustion chamber means that all these engines are the same, only their number is different?

- Yes, and this is our main achievement. In one such chamber with a diameter of just 380 millimeters, a little more than 0,6 burns tons of fuel per second. Without exaggeration, this camera is a unique high-temperature equipment with special protection belts from powerful heat flows. Protection is carried out not only due to external cooling of the chamber walls, but also due to the ingenious method of “lining” a film of fuel on them, which evaporates and cools the wall. On the basis of this outstanding camera, which is not equal in the world, we manufacture our best engines: RD-170 and RD-171 for Energia and Zenit, RD-180 for the American Atlas and RD-191 for the new Russian rocket "Angara".

- "Angara" was supposed to replace the "Proton-M" a few years ago, but the creators of the rocket faced serious problems, the first flight tests were repeatedly postponed, and the project seems to continue to slip.

- There really were problems. A decision has now been made to launch the rocket in 2013. The peculiarity of “Angara” is that, based on its universal rocket modules, you can create a whole family of launch vehicles with a payload from 2,5 to 25 tons to bring cargo to a low near-earth orbit based on the RD-191 universal oxygen-kerosene engine. The Angara-1 has one engine, the Angara-3 has three tons with a total load of 600, the Angara-5 has 1000 tons of thrust, which means it can put more cargo into orbit than the Proton. In addition, instead of a very toxic heptyl, which is burned in Proton engines, we use environmentally friendly fuel, after combustion of which only water and carbon dioxide remain.

- How did the same RD-170, which was created in the middle of 1970-s, still remain, in fact, an innovative product, and its technologies are used as the base for new LRE?

- Similar история It happened with the plane created after the Second World Vladimir Mjasishchev (long-range strategic bomber of the M series, developed by the Moscow OKB-23 1950-s. - Expert). In many ways, the aircraft was thirty years ahead of its time, and then other aircraft manufacturers borrowed elements of its design. So here: in RD-170 there are a lot of new elements, materials, design solutions. According to my estimates, they will not become obsolete for several more decades. This is primarily the merit of the founder of NPO Energomash and his general designer Valentin Petrovich Glushko and member of the Russian Academy of Sciences Vitaly Petrovich Radovsky, who headed the company after Glushko’s death. (Note that the best in the world energy and performance characteristics of RD-170 are largely ensured by solving Korgin’s problem of suppressing high-frequency combustion instability due to the development of antipulsation partitions in the same combustion chamber. - “Expert.”) And the RD-253 engine of the first stage for rocket carrier "Proton"? Adopted as early as 1965, it is so perfect that so far no one has surpassed it. That is how Glushko taught to design - at the limit of the possible and necessarily above the world average. It is important to remember something else: the country has invested in its technological future. How was it in the Soviet Union? The Ministry of General Engineering, in charge of space and rockets, in particular, spent 22 on a percentage of its huge budget on R & D in all areas, including propulsion. Today, the amount of research funding is much smaller, and that says a lot.

- Does it mean that these LREs achieve certain perfect qualities, and it happened half a century ago that a rocket engine with a chemical source of energy in a certain sense becomes obsolete: the main discoveries were made in new generations of LRE, now we are talking more about the so-called supporting innovations ?

- Certainly not. Liquid rocket engines are in demand and will be in demand for a very long time, because no other technology is able to reliably and economically lift cargo from the Earth and bring it into near-Earth orbit. They are safe from the point of view of ecology, especially those that work on liquid oxygen and kerosene. But for flights to the stars and other galaxies LRE, of course, completely unsuitable. The mass of the entire metagalaxy is 10 to 56 grams degree. In order to accelerate the LRE at least up to a quarter of the speed of light, you need an absolutely incredible amount of fuel - 10 to 3200 grams, so even thinking about it is stupid. The LRE has its own niche - marching engines. On liquid engines, you can accelerate the carrier to the second cosmic velocity, fly to Mars, and that's it.

- The next stage - nuclear rocket engines?

- Of course. Whether we will live to any stages is unknown, and much has been done to develop the NRE already in Soviet times. Now under the leadership of the Keldysh Center, headed by Academician Anatoly Sazonovich Koroteyev, the so-called transport and energy module is being developed. The designers came to the conclusion that it is possible to create a gas-cooled nuclear reactor that is less stressful than it was in the USSR, which will work both as a power station and as an energy source for plasma engines when traveling in space. Such a reactor is currently being designed at NIKIET named after N. A. Dollezhal under the guidance of Corresponding Member of the Russian Academy of Sciences Yuri Grigorievich Dragunov. The project also involves the Kaliningrad design bureau Fakel, where electric propulsion engines are created. As in Soviet times, it will not do without the Voronezh design bureau of chemical automation, where gas turbines and compressors will be manufactured, in order to drive the coolant through a closed circuit - a gas mixture.

- In the meantime, we fly to the rocket engine?

- Of course, and we clearly see the prospects for the further development of these engines. There are tactical tasks, long-term, there is no limit: the introduction of new, more heat-resistant coatings, new composite materials, reducing the mass of engines, increasing their reliability, simplifying the control scheme. It is possible to introduce a number of elements for more thorough control over the wear of parts and other processes occurring in the engine. There are strategic tasks: for example, the development of liquefied methane and acetylene as a fuel with ammonia or a three-component fuel. NPO "Energomash" is developing a three-component engine. Such a rocket engine could be used as an engine and the first and second stages. At the first stage, it uses well-developed components: oxygen, liquid kerosene, and if you add about five percent of hydrogen, the specific impulse will increase significantly - one of the main energy characteristics of the engine, which means that you can send more payload into space. In the first stage, all kerosene is produced with the addition of hydrogen, and in the second stage the same engine switches from working on three-component fuel to a two-component one — hydrogen and oxygen.

We have already created an experimental engine, however, of a small dimension and only about 7 tons, conducted 44 tests, made full-scale mixing elements in the nozzles, in the gas generator, in the combustion chamber and found that you can first work on three components, and then smoothly switch to two. Everything turns out, a high degree of combustion is achieved, but to go further, a larger sample is needed, you need to refine the stands in order to launch into the combustion chamber the components that we are going to use in a real engine: liquid hydrogen and oxygen, as well as kerosene. I think this is a very promising direction and a big step forward. And I hope to do something in life.

- Why Americans, having received the right to play RD-180, can not do it for many years?

- Americans are very pragmatic. In 1990-x, at the very beginning of work with us, they realized that in the energy field we were far ahead of them and we need to adopt these technologies. For example, our RD-170 engine in one launch due to a larger specific impulse could take out payload two tons more than their most powerful F-1, which at that time meant 20 had millions of dollars won. They announced a competition for the engine 400 tons for their "Atlas", which won our RD-180. Then the Americans thought that they would start working with us, and in four years they would take our technologies and reproduce them themselves. I immediately told them: you will spend more than a billion dollars and ten years. Four years have passed, and they say: yes, it takes six years. Years passed, they say: no, we need another eight years. Seventeen years have passed, and they have not reproduced a single engine. They are now only on the stand equipment for this need billions of dollars. We at Energomash have stands where the same RD-170 engine can be tested in the pressure chamber, the jet power of which reaches 27 million kilowatts.


- I heard right - 27 gigawatt? This is more than the installed capacity of all Rosatom NPPs.

“Twenty-seven gigawatts is the power of a jet that develops relatively quickly. When tested on a bench, the jet energy is first extinguished in a special pool, then in a dispersion pipe with a diameter of 16 meters and a height of 100 meters. To build a similar stand, which houses the engine that creates such power, you need to invest a lot of money. Americans now abandoned this and take the finished product. As a result, we are not selling raw materials, but a product with a huge added value, in which highly intellectual work is invested. Unfortunately, in Russia this is a rare example of high-tech sales abroad in such a large volume. But this proves that if we ask the right question, we are capable of much.


- Boris Ivanovich, what should be done in order not to lose the odds gained by the Soviet rocket engine building? Probably, apart from the lack of funding for R & D, another problem is a very painful one - personnel problem?

- In order to stay on the world market, we must go forward all the time, create new products. Apparently, while we are not completely pressed and thunder did not strike. But the state needs to realize that without new developments it will be on the outskirts of the world market, and today, in this transitional period, while we have not yet reached normal capitalism, it must first invest in the new - the state. Then you can transfer the development for the release of a series of private companies on terms favorable to both the state and business. I do not believe that it is impossible to come up with reasonable methods for creating a new thing, without them it’s useless to talk about development and innovation.

There are frames. I lead the department at the Moscow Aviation Institute, where we prepare both engines and lazerschik. The guys are clever, they want to do the work they are learning, but we need to give them a normal initial impulse so that they do not leave, as many now do, to write programs for the distribution of goods in stores. To do this, you need to create an appropriate laboratory environment, give a decent salary. Build the right structure of interaction between science and the Ministry of Education. The same Academy of Sciences solves many issues related to personnel training. Indeed, among the current members of the Academy, corresponding members there are many specialists who manage high-tech enterprises and research institutes, powerful design bureaus. They are directly interested in having the necessary specialists in the field of engineering, physics, and chemistry get assigned to their departments so that they immediately receive not just a specialized university graduate, but a ready-made specialist with some life and scientific and technical experience. It has always been this way: the best specialists were born in institutes and enterprises where educational departments existed. At Energomash and NPO Lavochkin, we have departments of the branch of the MAI Kometa, which I manage. There are old shots that can convey experience to the young. But there is very little time left, and the losses will be irretrievable: in order to just return to the level that exists now, you will have to spend much more energy than you need to maintain it today.
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  1. VadimSt
    VadimSt 18 May 2013 05: 44
    17
    Not only in the field of ballet are we ahead of the rest!

    We use environmentally friendly fuel, after the combustion of which only water and carbon dioxide remain.


    The era of heptyl is over - famously!
    1. Rink
      Rink 18 May 2013 10: 59
      37
      Such people need to erect monuments in life!
      They are the glory of our country, they must be the pride of the whole people!

      Yes, our politicians have lost everything. Yes, the country has lost part of its territory and has been floundering for more than 10 years in .. a liberal democracy and criminal privatization. Yes, these .... (I can’t find the right word) sold everything to the West for which they gave at least a dollar - any know-how, secrets, and even just us.

      But what does this have to do with the scientific and labor feat of SUCH people, engineers and designers - real patriots who did not sell themselves to the West, but remained here ?!

      These are not just people, they are giants!
      Such people need to be protected.
      1. elmir15
        elmir15 18 May 2013 12: 32
        +8
        Americans still cannot repeat our achievements in this area

        Something doesn’t lie that the Americans landed on the moon, it’s not for nothing that they have Hollywood)))
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Uncle
          Uncle 18 May 2013 13: 55
          +3
          Quote: elmir15
          Something doesn’t lie that the Americans landed on the moon, it is not for nothing that they have Hollywood))

          This is a corner reflector mounted on the moon. If you direct a laser beam from the Earth at him, then he, the reflector, will return the beam to the place of departure. Such reflectors were set by both ours and the Americans. So they were on the moon, and Hollywood - for the people who hawla, there he is very eager for shows.
          1. CTEPX
            CTEPX 18 May 2013 15: 27
            20
            Quote: Uncle
            Such reflectors were set by both ours and the Americans.

            Only ours do not depict that these reflectors were put by people in spacesuits)).
            1. snek
              snek 18 May 2013 16: 21
              +2
              Quote: elmir15
              Something doesn’t lie that the Americans landed on the moon, it’s not for nothing that they have Hollywood)))

              Well, here is the opinion of a specialist. On this occasion, Konstantin Feoktistov, a designer and cosmonaut who worked with Korolyov, writes: “To arrange such a hoax is probably no less difficult than a real expedition. For this, it would be necessary to land a television relay on the surface of the Moon in advance and check its operation (with the transmission On the days of the imitation of the expedition, it was necessary to send a radio relay to the Moon to simulate the radio communication between Apollo and the Earth on the flight path to the Moon. And they did not hide the scale of work on Apollo. were shown in Houston in 1969 (Control Center, stands, laboratories), factories in Los Angeles for the manufacture of Apollo ships and the descent vehicles that returned to Earth, according to this logic, it should have been an imitation ?! Too complicated and too funny. "
              Taken from his book "Feoktistov KP The trajectory of life. Between yesterday and tomorrow. - M .: Vagrius, 2000"
              Electronic version http://militera.lib.ru/explo/feoktistov_kp/index.html
              Here is what Igor Volk (cosmonaut, commander of the Buran squad) says about this:
              1. CTEPX
                CTEPX 18 May 2013 17: 37
                0
                Quote: snek
                according to this logic, it should have been an imitation ?! Too complicated and too funny. "Taken from his book" Feoktistov K.P. Life trajectory. Between yesterday and tomorrow. - M .: Vagrius, 2000

                Damn it! Argument!
                And the prize is the collapse of the USSR together with accomplices from among the members of the Central Committee of the CPSU!
                I suppose that astronaut Feoktistov in the USSR was never satisfied with excursions around
                Quote: snek
                (Control Center, stands, laboratories), factories in Los Angeles
                with VIP support)).
              2. Mikhail3
                Mikhail3 18 May 2013 21: 34
                15
                So the Americans had a stand? And then? A cleaner with a broom in the trash swept? As a designer of engines of faith, more than an astronaut. After all, the stand for testing lunar engines should have been, without it, any work on capacities of more than a hundred tons could not be imagined. Smaller stands were, of course. But you can’t run a powerful engine on them ...
                For me, everything became clear at the moment when in the "chronicle" I saw an object accompanying a rocket taking off. It so happened, I am aware of the evolution of devices that are used to automatically rotate cameras. In the years of the "American Lunar Expedition", the earth's rotary device, capable of lifting the camera in this way, weighed forty kilograms. This is in the most optimal case, under ideal conditions. Considering the vacuum, dust, temperature ... for the survival of such a device at least for half an hour in the conditions of the lunar surface - a centner, no less.
                That is, such a device had to be kept inside the module, then unloaded, installed and configured (that is, an activity) half an hour before the start. Anyone can estimate the weight limits for the lunar module, and then imagine how they brought in a hefty fool weighing one hundred kg ... to accompany the start with a camera lens.
                I can imagine a bomb drop of a corner reflector onto a satellite without an atmosphere, a radio relay in orbit of the moon. But the indelible engine, which carried American ships through the lunar program, and then mysteriously disappeared, the heavy rotary device brought to the moon low ... it is not, I can not.
                1. snek
                  snek 18 May 2013 23: 51
                  +2
                  Quote: Mikhail3
                  So the Americans had a stand? And then? A cleaner with a broom in the trash swept? As a designer of engines of faith, more than an astronaut. After all, the stand for testing lunar engines should have been, without it, any work on capacities of more than a hundred tons could not be imagined.

                  Are you about F-1? here are his bench tests (more precisely, the entire first stage):
                  Quote: Mikhail3
                  It so happened, I am aware of the evolution of devices that are used to automatically rotate cameras. In the years of the "American Lunar Expedition", the earth's rotary device, capable of lifting the camera in this way, weighed forty kilograms. This is in the most optimal case, under ideal conditions. Considering vacuum, dust, temperature ...

                  I understand that for lovers of conspiracy such moments are a revelation, but there are a few points. Firstly, for space (not only for the Apollo program), everything is made of the lightest materials, and how much the Earth's analogue weighs is not an indicator at all. Secondly, although the mass of the camera is everywhere the same, its weight on the moon is much less. Thirdly, and where does the vacuum, etc.?
                  Quote: Mikhail3
                  a hefty fool weighing one hundred kg ... to accompany the start with a camera lens.

                  just 40 kg, and now a hundred, I think if you continued to develop the idea, it would turn out that this unit weighs two tons at least.
                  Quote: Mikhail3
                  here is an indelible engine that carried American ships through the lunar program, and then mysteriously disappeared

                  Yes, he has not disappeared. By the way, here are his tests in 2013:

                  And they do not use it for the reason that it is very voracious and excessively powerful for most modern carriers. But all this will not convince you. I realized that even if the conspirators to the Moon carry and drive to the places of landing, the effect will be zero - they will say that all this is part of the conspiracy.
                  1. CTEPX
                    CTEPX 19 May 2013 05: 28
                    +4
                    Quote: snek
                    And do not use it for the reason that it is very voracious and excessively powerful

                    Oh no no no! And Wikipedia claims that the combined fuel and oxidizer consumption is that F-1, that RD-170 is the same, i.e. about 2,5 tons / sec))!
                    Even now, propaganda is not growing together)).
                  2. shserg
                    shserg 3 November 2015 14: 17
                    +2
                    On photo-atmospheric stands, the article indicates the absence of pressure chambers.
                  3. Grigory_78
                    Grigory_78 28 May 2017 22: 06
                    +3
                    The fact that the movie about the moon landing was shot in Hollywood - the Americans have long recognized (quietly, of course). Take the film, mount the film and deliver it to the television studio within an hour after the astronauts returned to Earth - how do you imagine this? And you see, they lost the original shots. Sumptuously.
                  4. isker
                    isker 9 August 2017 21: 09
                    0
                    the argument is untenable: no one will argue that the Americans are handy for technology, so no one forbade them - the "method of backscaling" - i.e. to make of a powerful engine - weaker (to break - not to build!), but you cannot scale what is not!
                    besides - does someone seriously believe in the altruism of American businessmen? Three "unclaimed" Saturn-5 rockets - transferred to museums - at a cost = 1/3 of NASA’s TOTAL budget! They just took it and threw the money away? ..
                    1. ghby
                      ghby 22 August 2017 07: 44
                      +1
                      Quote: isker
                      Three "unclaimed" Saturn-5 rockets - transferred to museums - at a cost = 1/3 of NASA’s TOTAL budget! They just took it and threw the money away? ..

                      Chu, we have a 3m space on the street, on Cosmic Avenue, is for everyone to see.
                  5. Starlei.ura
                    Starlei.ura 10 March 2018 13: 09
                    0
                    You show the fire stand in atmospheric conditions, where to test in a vacuum?
              3. yugan
                yugan April 27 2017 10: 47
                0
                Read it here. There are opinions of very competent people.
                http://igor-grek.ucoz.ru/publ/kosmos/manonmoon/19
                -1-0-1024
              4. isker
                isker 9 August 2017 21: 02
                +1
                nonsense!
                Feoktistov is farther than the checkpoint - they haven’t taken them anywhere or let them in!
                Leonov - a man in uniform - was ordered to lie - he is lying!
                And the corner reflector can also be installed automatically (like ours)!
                The problem is the purchase of the Kremlin at that time - they exchanged the Moon for Western investments, at first they thought it was profitable (as it was, in the short term), but in general - the collapse of the USSR ...
                ((
          2. Andrey_K
            Andrey_K 18 May 2013 18: 08
            +6
            With these reflectors muddy business.
            Exactly this effect can give selected sections of the lunar surface (and give).
            When they are "looking for" a reflector on the Moon, they simply sort through many well-reflecting areas and the peak closest and brightest to the calculated point is declared this very "Lunar corner reflector".
            It can be detected a few kilometers to the left or right - all this is recorded in the measurement error.
            1. snek
              snek 19 May 2013 00: 29
              +2
              Quote: Andrey_K
              Exactly this effect can give selected sections of the lunar surface (and give).
              When they are "looking for" a reflector on the Moon, they simply sort through many well-reflecting areas and the peak closest and brightest to the calculated point is declared this very "Lunar corner reflector".

              Awesome knowledge of the matter. Indeed, what is the difference between a reflector and a well-reflecting portion of the moon. The Americans (like us with the Lunokhods) delivered to the moon corner reflector (if you don’t know what it is - search in Google). And when you read the idea that it can be confused with just a well-reflecting part of the moon, then from such, sorry, stupidity, the brain begins to hurt.
              1. Andrey_K
                Andrey_K 19 May 2013 02: 26
                +4
                Well, turn pale.
                If you do not know the material, there is nothing to say.
          3. The comment was deleted.
      2. aksakal
        aksakal 18 May 2013 19: 26
        +5
        Quote: Skating rink
        Such people need to be protected.

        well, they themselves can be protected, tea, not children smile But to VALUE is yes, it is necessary. Moreover, in addition to material rewards, moral rewards are also needed. I remember how a unit (back in the USSR) drove us to visit the son of Hero of Socialist Labor - it was a sheer racket, the parade ground was torn out, the construction in honor of her on the parade ground was only l / s. She then told us about her labor feat.
        What now? Now such a Hero of Socialist Labor will come to the unit and at the same time some kind of millerderishko thread or "stage star", so the Hero will be pushed into the far corner - wait for your son here and do not go beyond the perimeter of this corner, mulberry important persons walk! Ugh! About times, about mores!
        And the Russians have something to be proud of! These are very serious technological developments. Why are the liberoids shouting that Russia has lost its primacy in the space race? In some ways, not the first - so what? While the heart of the launch vehicles is in the hands of the Russians, they are no matter what the liberoids or our "Jewish comrades" shout. laughing
        1. gladcu2
          gladcu2 16 November 2016 00: 01
          +4
          aksakal

          Speak correctly.

          And it is also very unfortunate that because of the notorious secrecy in the USSR, the people did not know the achievements of their country. And therefore, under the pressure of liberal lies, he lost confidence in his country, and hence confidence in himself and his strength.

          And the situation when the title of Soviet Man began to be called "scoop". People became ashamed of their origin for a long time.

          Well, thanks to the author for the article. Better late than never.
      3. Evgeny Parygin
        Evgeny Parygin 12 December 2017 10: 42
        0
        Such people need not monuments, but financing of all spheres of activity in rocket technology. There is no such funding right now. Instead, we buy football clubs, yachts, palaces. Such is the truth.
  2. Canep
    Canep 18 May 2013 06: 17
    -3
    - The next stage - nuclear rocket engines?
    It would be more likely that work has been going on for about 40 years, and things are not going beyond prototypes.
    1. snek
      snek 18 May 2013 11: 08
      0
      Quote: Canep
      It would be more likely that work has been going on for about 40 years, and things are not going beyond prototypes.

      Ion engines have been used in apparatuses studying the distant bodies of the solar system since the late 90s. Such an engine was on Deep Space 1, which was sent to study the asteroid. The Japanese used such an engine on the Hayabusa apparatus, which for the first time in history was able to take a soil sample from an asteroid.
      1. Canep
        Canep 18 May 2013 13: 25
        +1
        What is the relationship between ionic (electric) engines and nuclear rocket engines?
        1. snek
          snek 18 May 2013 13: 51
          +1
          Nuclear engines both in our country and in the USA have been developed since the 50s (so that work has been going on for much more than 40 years) and there are still no results that are of any significance for practical application. And the ionic ones are exactly what looks like the "next stage".
        2. Koshak
          Koshak 8 November 2016 11: 28
          0
          Quote: Canep
          What is the relationship between ionic (electric) engines and nuclear rocket engines?

          And you re-read the interview more closely. It says that the nuclear reactor will operate as a power plant, and what kind of engine the ion or plasma will actually be - the second question.
    2. aksakal
      aksakal 18 May 2013 19: 00
      +3
      Quote: Canep
      It would be more likely that work has been going on for about 40 years, and things are not going beyond prototypes.

      - that zamusuyut you on a generally harmless question. In Sabzh, amers and liquid engines, similar to Russian ones, mastered for seventeen years and never mastered laughing So 40 years is not a deadline for a nuclear engine. Well, it doesn’t press too hard, it can fly to Mars and it is possible on the rocket engine - again according to the subject. So where and why should we hurry with the NRE? It is important not to interrupt the study, because interruption is fraught with loss of competence, and not in a hurry (until it presses) to carry out work carefully, clearly and with the arrangementsmile
    3. Grigory_78
      Grigory_78 28 May 2017 22: 10
      0
      I consider it unjustified to use nuclear rocket engines as long as they do not give an overwhelming advantage in their use. Imagine one unsuccessful launch of a rocket with such engines and its consequences. Hope the meaning is clear.
      1. Chaos
        Chaos 17 July 2017 21: 33
        0
        Or maybe the first step will be on kerosene, but already far away from Earth the second on nuclear
        1. Grigory_78
          Grigory_78 14 October 2017 05: 30
          0
          What is the difference at what stage does the NRE stand in the event of complete destruction of the rocket? Fuel for this engine will be scattered over a fairly large area in almost any case. At least a partial collection of this fuel will cost a lot of money. Plus, compensation should be paid to everyone who can prove that he suffered, and there will be many of them. One such unsuccessful launch can cost an order or two large financial losses than one unsuccessful launch of Proton-M with its unforgettable heptyl.
  3. CTEPX
    CTEPX 18 May 2013 06: 23
    13
    It seems that the paragraph responsible for its title about "lunar swindlers" is pulled out of the article)).
    1. v53993
      v53993 18 May 2013 06: 28
      +8
      The correct impression. This paragraph is between the lines.
    2. Horde
      Horde 18 May 2013 08: 43
      25
      Quote: ctepx
      It seems that the paragraph responsible for its title about "lunar swindlers" is pulled out of the article)).


      a long time ago, amers went to the moon 6 times and successfully landed. But then why NOW it doesn’t work out? But they don’t want it, DO NOT NEED, a successful Saturn racket on ... uh, an unrivaled F-1 engine on ... uh-no to them, but we’ll buy RD-180 from the Russians and not explore the Moon, and cut circles around the Earth. Can a normal person believe this nonsense? Instead of progress, it’s just some kind of DEGRADATION.
      1. sashka
        sashka 18 May 2013 18: 13
        +3
        Quote: Horde
        Instead of progress, it’s just some kind of DEGRADATION.

        We are going the same way. And very fast. I wonder who say thanks for the education?
      2. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 18 May 2013 21: 48
        +6
        What does degradation have to do with it? To use Ф-1 and further, several people are necessary. An already developed engine can be produced and produced as long as someone presents the main difficulties and problems, and has the documentation. Wild nonsense about the fact that the documentation is gone - this is for underdeveloped kids. In engineering works of this level, the probability of documentation loss in a volume that makes it impossible to produce an engine ... that is, technological maps. And workshop copies, on which the process was conducted directly. And the options for developers. And ... yes they went to the forest, storytellers!
        WASN'T F-1. So this is not degradation at all ...
        1. adept666
          adept666 April 27 2017 14: 56
          +2
          Wild nonsense about the fact that the documentation was gone - this is for underdeveloped kids.
          They live in the Bermuda Triangle, they can))) They lost not only the docks on F-1, the originals of many videos of the landings also disappeared, their anti-doping samples also disappear (as soon as they need someone to double-check), Lunar the soil evaporates in a very interesting way, and it seems to be there and it seems to be absent laughing , but what is similar also seems to have been replaced in the same way as part of the video recordings of the landings because the cleaner was daring, but something must be. They are also noble alchemists, their gold miraculously turns into tungsten. Much at the rumor level, but smoke without fire is known laughing
  4. v53993
    v53993 18 May 2013 06: 25
    21
    People like academician Boris Katorgin are the real wealth and future of Russia, unlike the prolific liberal politicians and swindlers from the economy, which are worthless on a market day.
    1. Corsair
      Corsair 18 May 2013 10: 59
      10
      As a result, we do not sell raw materials, but a product with huge added value, in which highly intellectual labor is invested. Unfortunately, in Russia this is a rare example of high-tech sales abroad in such a large volume. But this proves that with the right formulation of the question, we are capable of much.

      This is a statement of the success of Russia in the global high-tech market, and it sounds from the lips of an outstanding scientist who has put his life in the service of his homeland and science.
      V53993:
      People like academician Boris Katorgin are the real wealth and future of Russia, unlike the prolific liberal politicians and swindlers from the economy, which are worthless on a market day


      Now, if it weren’t for the notorious Rossnano and other Chubaks ...
      1. Evgeny Parygin
        Evgeny Parygin 12 December 2017 10: 47
        0
        Chubais on the verge of creating a nanonuclear engine
    2. Chaos
      Chaos 17 July 2017 21: 35
      +1
      Not only Russia, but all of humanity
  5. vilenich
    vilenich 18 May 2013 06: 49
    +7
    There are old cadres that can convey experience to young people. But there is very little time left, and the losses will be irretrievable: in order to simply return to the current level, you will have to spend much more effort than today to maintain it.

    Indeed, there is already no time for buildup! All that was possible was already profiled and the point of no return is approaching! Right now we need the political will of the country's leadership to revive advanced science and create breakthrough technologies!
  6. aszzz888
    aszzz888 18 May 2013 07: 04
    +9
    Well, not so bad with us.
    If the mericatos had not stolen f. Brown, his documentation and the FAA ready, then they would be in one interesting place, the head opposite to the head.
    1. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 18 May 2013 16: 02
      +2
      Quote: aszzz888
      If the mericatos had not stolen f. Brown, his documentation and FAA ready

      You might think we stole a little
      Yes, and dumped a lot of bright goals abroad
      1. shserg
        shserg 3 November 2015 14: 24
        +1
        Dvigatelistov is relatively small, a copy of the fau did a long and hard. The preponderance of German specialists here is on guidance.
  7. nikolas 83
    nikolas 83 18 May 2013 07: 18
    +7
    In short, the entire American Martian program also crashes thanks to us. Our engines take their ships with Mars rovers into orbit. And their super secret spaceship also takes off in the atlas. The Atlas also has our engine. Without us, the American space program is nothing. It's a shame that we don’t in a hurry to apply new developments.
    1. Know-nothing
      Know-nothing 18 May 2013 09: 41
      +2
      Well, Russia receives several million dollars (and even then until recently they sold RD-180 at a loss). And the whole scientific result is with the Americans.
  8. k220150
    k220150 18 May 2013 08: 23
    +6
    I learn with pain about the previously absolutely closed, specific heroes of the battle for space, the last soldiers of the Empire.
    The USSR surrendered to the enemies the cowardly, literate leadership of the party, headed by Suslov, Andropov, Gorbachev ... and the hangers-on who joined them, whose personal courage does not guarantee honor. There is such an astronaut Leonov, foaming at the mouth, proving to everyone that ... were on the moon. Anyone who can add two plus two understands that the lunar "expedition" is a SCAM. The country paid a gigantic price for the cowardice of the authorities. People must remember and understand. God grant that this will not happen again!
    1. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 18 May 2013 21: 55
      0
      For some reason, the USSR received grain for many years, in millions of tons, at a price much lower than the cost price. From enemies. Do not judge Leonov so harshly, the USSR itself was not able to establish agriculture (this, by the way, also should not be forgotten. Do not remember the "harvest" of 6 centners per hectare? That's where the shame was ...). Looks like they explained to Leonov once and for all. We are good at this too ...
      1. CTEPX
        CTEPX 19 May 2013 05: 36
        +3
        Quote: Mikhail3
        For some reason, the Soviet Union for many years received grain, in millions of tons, at a price much lower than cost

        The USSR also EXPORTED grain for many years, moreover, in the years that were later dubbed the "Holodomor" by the "independent" countries.
        About the price "below cost" - let it remain on the conscience of those who claim it)).
        1. Grigory_78
          Grigory_78 28 May 2017 22: 29
          +1
          It was a time when "our foreign partners" took only grain to pay for high-tech equipment - they did not even take gold. Such sanctions of the 30s, introduced exactly for the same as now - the change of the "regime" in the country through factors provoked from the outside. The extraction of grain from the population at the Stakhanov pace was organized by Ukrainian party leaders according to the formula "make a fool pray to God ..." in order to curry favor with the authorities in Moscow as much as possible and still be able to smuggle part of the grain to Turkey. Actually, their descendants in Ukraine are following the same principles now to the authorities in Washington. A very clear example of organizing a new Holodomor, which Russia will certainly be blamed again.
      2. Grigory_78
        Grigory_78 28 May 2017 22: 34
        0
        "at a price far below cost"? Original. I don’t know where you got this from, but try to figure out the accompanying circumstances. For the West, charity is a type of business if you did not know. Read about the humanitarian aid of the United States for the starving population of African countries, as a result of which hunger is only intensifying ... A very interesting topic.
  9. Horde
    Horde 18 May 2013 09: 10
    +1
    all the most significant, the best has been created in that country, which no longer exists. This country is not capable of anything, only degradation, decay, and under colored smiling pictures with BLACK muzzles, and EVERYTHING has already rotted under them. I have no doubt for a minute if the Am_Erams really didn’t need a GOOD ENGINE, which they themselves would NOT STATES Energomash would share the fate of hundreds of other collapsing enterprises of a great country, such as the half-destroyed aviation and space enterprises of Samara.
    1. Concept1
      Concept1 18 May 2013 10: 31
      +1
      Horde Energomash would share the fate of hundreds of other collapsing enterprises of a great country, such as the half-destroyed aviation and space enterprises of Samara.

      TsSKB-PROGRESS
      A type
      FSUE
      Year of foundation
      April 12 1996 years
      location
      Russia, Samara
      Branch
      Heavy engineering (Rocket and space industry, Shipbuilding, Aviation industry)
      Catalog
      Space launch vehicles, remote sensing spacecraft, scientific spacecraft, small vessels, small aircraft, food products, etc.
      Turnover
      17,88 billion rubles. (2009)
      Net profit
      286,6 million rubles (2009)
      Number of employees
      20 тыс.

      1. Horde
        Horde 18 May 2013 10: 53
        +7
        od foundation
        April 12 1996 years
        location
        Russia, Samara


        Do you want to say that Progress appeared in Putin's time? Stop lying!!! angry ALL ENTERPRISES of Samara-Kuibyshev were created in SOVIET times. All industries of the rocket and space industry are old, for a long time there have been no cash infusions, no repairs, no updates. "Kuznetsov", in order to survive, produces airplanes with the stupid name "trotter", old people work at the enterprises, and then only a few, the money went into re-equipment, only a couple of years ago and then it is not known whether this is true or, as Putin usually said to the ladies, but as a result not gave.
        1. Concept1
          Concept1 18 May 2013 11: 11
          +4
          April 13 2012 15: 48
          The Samara engine-building enterprise “Kuznetsov” again needs personnel - one and a half thousand people. Today, the plant has new orders, including from abroad. The governor arrived on April 12 to congratulate people who work in space.
          http://newstube.ru/m/533563

          "Rysachek" releases TsSKB-PROGRESS
          1. Horde
            Horde 18 May 2013 11: 32
            +3
            Quote: concept1
            April 13 2012 15: 48
            The Samara engine-building enterprise “Kuznetsov” again needs personnel - one and a half thousand people. Today, the plant has new orders, including from abroad. The governor arrived on April 12 to congratulate people who work in space.
            http://newstube.ru/m/533563

            "Rysachek" releases TsSKB-PROGRESS


            maybe it’s better to answer why it took 20 years to TURN the best enterprises, destroy personnel, school, and now with a trembling hand to slobber out a trifle not maintaining pants and restoring what was created long ago, and not moving forward leaving competitors behind ???
        2. Concept1
          Concept1 18 May 2013 11: 21
          +1
          In 2015, OJSC Kuznetsov (formerly the Motorostroitel plant, Samara) plans to transfer the first NK-32 engine to the Ministry of Defense, produced on new production equipment using new technologies. In 2016, the plant plans to produce 4-5 of these engines designed to equip the Tu-160 strategic bomber; in the period until 2020-2030, several dozen NK-32s will be delivered to the Russian military.
          1. Horde
            Horde 18 May 2013 11: 38
            +3
            Quote: concept1
            In 2015, OJSC Kuznetsov (formerly the Motorostroitel plant, Samara) plans to transfer the first NK-32 engine to the Ministry of Defense, produced on new production equipment using new technologies. In 2016, the plant plans to produce 4-5 of these engines designed to equip the Tu-160 strategic bomber; in the period until 2020-2030, several dozen NK-32s will be delivered to the Russian military.


            first, to ruin everything then to 20,30-50g to restore everything for a long and tedious period, first remove the divisions, remake them into brigades, then remove the brigades remake them into divisions, THIS IS ALL THE PUTIN POLICY.
            if such a clever defender of the new order was found, then answer, where is the best NK-93 engine in the world and why for more than twenty years it was destroyed together with our other aircraft industry and who is to blame for this ???
            1. Concept1
              Concept1 18 May 2013 11: 55
              +3
              Engine finishing possible


              I answer about the letter from the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation, which gives an incomplete assessment of our engine. I want to clarify: the term for the creation of NK-93 is not 30, but 20 years. The engine of the early 90s of the last century. Next - on the technical level of the product. If we consider the development trends of engine building, and these are not my suggestions, but the opinion of TsIAM, then by 2020–2025, engines of this class should have a 14–18 dual-circuit. NK-93 has this indicator 16. The number of steps is 12–14. On NK-93 - 22. Too much, of course. You can’t say anything here. This technology, of course, of the past century.


              There are other considerations. Suppose we agree that the pressure of the NK-93 fan does not correspond to current trends. Now it should be 1,4, for NK-93 - 1,22–1,27. But that is not the point. For 20 years, science has advanced. Of course, there are good developments in gas dynamics at TsIAM. Redesigning the compressor, having a basic one, to the smallest number of stages is quite possible. When creating the PD-14 engine, for example, very large funds were invested in the so-called breakthrough technologies, in which TsIAM was also actively involved. I don’t give the institute big compliments, I try to objectively discuss the facts. PD-14 technologies should become the property of the country, and not of any specific engine. Thus, SNTK and TsIAM could complete the NK-93.


              Today there is no aircraft in the class 18 tf, it is not designed. But still, it’s not the engine that is being built for the airplane, but the airplane under the engine. A commonplace example is the NK-40 rocket engine that we modernized really 70 years ago (33s of the last century). On April 5, the launch of the US Antares launch vehicle, which was made specifically for the NK-33, is scheduled. Does it not seem strange that 40 years have passed, and the United States, one of the technologically advanced countries in the world, is designing a special rocket?


              In the form in which NK-93 is now, it can not be called a finished product. This, of course, is a demonstrator, or a prototype, or a prototype demonstrator of an engine. There are studies confirming that with a double-circuit degree of 12 thrust reverse it is advisable to carry out as it was done in NK-93. The world is moving towards increased bypass.


              It is necessary to check the engine: will it be protected against shutdown in flight? How will the feathering system behave? Can it reliably provide protection against autorotation? If the rotary blade sticks, what is the drag? The design of the NK-93 should include leveling drag with feathering. There are problems so far.
              1. Pilat2009
                Pilat2009 18 May 2013 16: 10
                +1
                Quote: concept1
                It is necessary to check the engine: will it be protected against shutdown in flight? How will the feathering system behave? Can it reliably provide protection against autorotation?

                So who argues that? Why then remove the engine from the laboratory airplane? Fly and check - no need to remove and throw
                1. Grigory_78
                  Grigory_78 14 October 2017 06: 29
                  0
                  Not until NK-93 yet. PD-14 urgently needs to be brought to mind, and deal with its derivatives - PD-18, PD-10, PD-7, PD-35 ... Fully restore the production of NK-32 at the necessary pace. Then, with the experience gained on these engines, return to NK-93. The technology by which it is made is hopelessly outdated. First of all, NK-93 should get a welded rotor, completely different turbine blades, etc., etc. And only then it will have to be brought to mind. And it will be a completely different engine in terms of performance. What is the point of experiencing what is now? Money nowhere to go? Or do you just have to cry about the lost Soviet legacy?
            2. Concept1
              Concept1 18 May 2013 11: 55
              +1
              There are claims for exceeding the declared weight and size. In the first case, Boris Korovin answered for me. Just note that the engine under discussion is experimental. During the tests, it was hung with hundreds of kilograms of sensors, there was a steel, abnormal pylon beam, and many other additional systems were installed. Therefore, I consider the issue of weight irrelevant.


              There is a reserve for improvement. In particular, TsIAM received excellent sliding bearings. The gearbox of the tested NK-93 used rolling bearings. By the way, the project also includes gliding. There were simply no corresponding materials and switched to rolling, the gearbox was inflated. Magnificent cermet materials also appeared at TsIAM and are suitable not only for the gearbox, but in general for the entire class of gear motors.


              At one time, the German company MTU bought from us a report on the acoustic characteristics of the NK-93 for 600 thousand marks. Then it was very good money. This is a kind of fact of recognition of our achievements. So, the engine under discussion serves as a kind of prototype. The development of the theme of aircraft engines with ultra-high bypass until 2025 must be continued. The issue of certification is no longer important, but the topics discussed should be in development.


              The ministry’s letter actually emphasizes the need to use the reserve for NK-93 for promising large thrust engines (30 tf). They will have the same diameter as the NK-93. Fan diameter - under three meters. So I appreciate the technical excellence of this aircraft engine. And the direction, of course, is promising for the motors of the future. According to TsIAM, the engines of 2020–2025 in terms of specific fuel consumption will be at the level of 0,5 kilograms per kilogram of thrust per hour (kg / kgf h). The forecast for the NK-93 on the measured characteristics (according to Boris Korovin) is at the level of 0,51. Thus, taking into account modern developments in the field of gas dynamics, the reserves for reducing specific consumption are substantial.



              Dmitry Fedorchenko, General Designer of Kuznetsov OJSC


              Published in issue No. 12 (480), March 27, 2013
              1. Horde
                Horde 18 May 2013 12: 16
                +1
                I answer about the letter from the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation, which gives an incomplete assessment of our engine. I want to clarify: the term for the creation of NK-93 is not 30, but 20 years. The engine of the early 90s of the last century.


                a letter from the Ministry of Commerce when it was drawn up? It’s important in 2013, but the NK-93 engine was the best in its time at the end of 80g, if it were put on those planes, it wouldn’t be equal in power, noise, efficiency to our planes. Your answer with a delay of twenty years is SCAM. Both people and their ideas must be judged by the standards of THEIR TIME !!!
                They didn’t finance NK-93 in stepchildren and even directly forbade testing, it says only one thing that the West and their Russian mongrel were very afraid of this real breakthrough in engine building. The engine can be modernized and brought up to modern requirements, but Putin and friends aren’t interested.
                1. CTEPX
                  CTEPX 18 May 2013 12: 33
                  +4
                  Quote: Horde
                  NK-93 engine was the best in its time at the end of 80g

                  Quote: Horde
                  but Putin and friends are not interested in this.

                  Some kind of inconsistency?
                  Putin and his friends are quietly unwinding this enemy tangle, imposed on us, starting with the "lunar program")).
                  I would like wisdom - do not confuse the soft with the warm)).
                  1. Horde
                    Horde 18 May 2013 14: 41
                    +2
                    Putin and his friends are quietly unwinding this enemy tangle, imposed on us, starting with the "lunar program")


                    and so Putin means still unwinding a ball then? Well, why did he think so slowly that Putin thought to unwind a ball for ten years or not and finally thought up? but the steam engine left the equipment dilapidated, personnel were lost, the school was almost lost, foreign planes also went ahead, is it really not clear what kind of protracted slow-thinking? Maybe the reason is different? It seems that it is not Putin who is in charge of the country, but someone else either a period of decline or crisis, or a period of cash injections, and they believe that this is enough, then oxygen again shut off industry as a result of the aviation industry, the USSR’s pride almost lies.

                    I would like wisdom - do not confuse the soft with the warm))


                    do you want wisdom? buy yourself a complete works of Putin and you will be happy laughing .
                    1. CTEPX
                      CTEPX 18 May 2013 15: 22
                      +1
                      Quote: Horde
                      buy yourself the complete works of Putin

                      Searched ... did not find)).
                      I read Rogozin, Fedorov)). Yes, and the eyes and ears are)).
                      Putin’s position - now very similar to Stalin’s position - then.
                      Only Putin ... wiser or something)).
                      1. Horde
                        Horde 18 May 2013 15: 49
                        11
                        Searched ... did not find)).

                        unlucky sympathize, but I think vanity is a common vice among leaders, so I think you will be lucky soon. laughing

                        Putin’s position - now very similar to Stalin’s position - then.
                        Only Putin ... wiser or something)).


                        Well, yes, of course, after all, it was Putin who accepted the country with a plow, and when he leaves it, maybe there will be no more bombs. After all, Putin had to create aircraft from scratch, the automotive industry,
                        It’s because Putin brought Russia to Tuva, the Kaliningrad region, Sakhalin, and why did Spitsbergen suddenly become Norwegian? Or did it happen under Stalin? Or maybe it was Stalin who gave the Amur Islands to the Chinas? Taburetkin with the company or would have been sitting or already lying, what do you think, why? in fairness and by law? Well, yes, I forgot because of the inborn Stalinist tyranny and murder. Under Stalin, the country grew especially Russian, and under Putin, Mos Islands and Peter grows Asians, Caucasians yes, yes Well rows & why should it? Well, of course, due to the unsurpassed Putin WISDOM, to change the indigenous population of the country to different blacks.
                      2. CTEPX
                        CTEPX 18 May 2013 16: 11
                        +1
                        Quote: Horde
                        or maybe it happened under Stalin?

                        What are you still inattentive).
                        Stalin became Secretary General in 1922. Putin became president in 2000. But Stalin had a PARTY, and Putin is still trying to create it, but for now is forced to use what was created by the Americans).
                        In 1935, the Union somehow began to crawl out of the abyss. Like us now).
                        I wonder how many normal, thinking people casked Stalin in 1935 and attributed to him all the sins committed by the enemies at the birth of Soviet power? But 1937 and 1941 are still to come ...
                      3. Horde
                        Horde 18 May 2013 16: 48
                        +1
                        Putin is still trying to create it


                        a party of crooks and thieves, or what? - has long been created.
                        But Stalin had a PARTY,


                        the party of the Bolsheviks, w & dov, is like spiders in a bank, it would be better if it weren’t.
                        Stalin became Secretary General in 1922


                        like Stalin ruled more than Putin? Well, when do you think Putin became "like Stalin, only wiser"? in what year can they be compared?

                        in the meantime, forced to use what was created by the Americans


                        what is created then? the consignment? why amerikosami? Is everything all right there?
                      4. CTEPX
                        CTEPX 18 May 2013 17: 12
                        +1
                        Quote: Horde

                        Horde


                        Today, 16: 48

                        Somehow you do not have a system. It seems that you are ready to bite, but you don’t know whom)).
                        Quote: Horde
                        the consignment? why amerikosami?

                        Today, in good faith, ALL parliamentary parties are controlled by the Americans (why is this word? well, call it differently)).
                        Putin managed to establish control over one of these)). What did you say there? A party of crooks and thieves? Well, let it be according to Zhirinovsky)).
                        Putin's party has yet to be created. So it seems to me)).
                        Quote: Horde
                        Well, when do you think Putin became "like Stalin, only wiser"?
                        How did Stalin differ from Roosevelt, Churchill and others like them? He was able to LEARN the ins and outs of the education and actions of groups of "world government" (masons, world international, clubs, call it what you want) and rambled with them, and not with their puppets (Roosevelt, Churchill and others like them). Such a miracle happened during WWII)). For Putin, this happened earlier (according to the chronological tree))).
                        The problem is not that THEY (MP, masses, etc., etc.) rule us)). The problem is that they SHOULD we. A LOT OF. And our self-awareness means their death)).
                        I repeat, I do not know what and how Putin will do. And it makes me happy)).
                        Peace?))
                      5. Horde
                        Horde 18 May 2013 18: 44
                        +5
                        Somehow you do not have a system. It seems that you are ready to bite, but you don’t know whom)).


                        somehow you quickly forgot what the conversation was about, and the conversation was how much Putin and his people will be useful to Russia? In my opinion they are extremely harmful.

                        due diligence, ALL parliamentary parties are controlled by the Americans


                        it's like pin_dosami that Putin’s radish horseradish is not sweeter.
                        What did you say there? A party of crooks and thieves? Well, let it be according to Zhirinovsky)).


                        pretending you didn’t hear what the people called Putin's party of officials? and Zhirik has nothing to do with it at all.

                        Putin's party has yet to be created. So it seems to me)


                        when it seems to be baptized laughing

                        He was able to LEARN the ins and outs of the education and actions of groups of "world government" (masons, world international, clubs, call it what you want) and rambled with them, and not with their puppets (Roosevelt, Churchill and others like them). Such a miracle happened during WWII)).


                        I don’t know whether Stalin knew the whole thing or not, but one thing is absolutely clear that Stalin made the main mistake of his life, he could not ensure the continuity of the course after death, and this happened because, along with external enemies, there was always an internal enemy and Stalin could not neutralize the reptile. Therefore, now we have what we have.

                        And our self-awareness means their death))


                        many are already aware of what happened to the country, only to know and act different things. And THEY rule and feel great, do what they want, for example, change the foundations of humanity from women to men, and from men to women, children turn objects of sexual violence, destroy education I turn people into a cattle mass, just eat, fuck and love the conquest of democracy.

                        I repeat, I do not know what and how Putin will do. And it makes me happy)


                        But I know what Putin will do, do you want a prediction? What did Putin say at the annual appeal to the people? NOTHING. That's how it will be.
                      6. CTEPX
                        CTEPX 18 May 2013 19: 00
                        +1
                        Quote: Horde
                        how much will Putin and his people be useful to Russia? In my opinion they are extremely harmful.

                        Then the question is: who are Putin's people? (for accompaniment: Stalin had to remove ALL of his friends and associates - they got sick) Did these "Putin's people" do anything useful for Russia? (for accompaniment: stoolkin actually "removed" Hodor).
                        Quote: Horde
                        what is the people name Putin's party of officials? and Zhirik has nothing to do with it at all.
                        I heard this from Zhirik) and bulk has nothing to do with it)).
                        Quote: Horde
                        when it seems to be baptized
                        About being baptized - not sure. Since the current Orthodox Church is still weak for the Russian spirit)).
                        Quote: Horde
                        one thing is clear that Stalin made the main mistake

                        Exactly! But Putin has not committed it yet!
                        Quote: Horde
                        only know and act different things
                        Well, about actions it’s easy for me)). Personally, I’m acting)).
                        Quote: Horde
                        What did Putin say at the annual appeal to the people? NOTHING
                        You did not hear that)). And he said about the upcoming change in the Constitution of the Russian Federation)).
              2. lazy
                lazy 18 May 2013 16: 17
                +4
                Putin took Russia from the hands of the drunk Yeltsin in a state close to collapse, when the army was delayed for 4-5 months, when they immediately began to pay on time, albeit at first not much but in time, new equipment went, but little went
              3. Horde
                Horde 18 May 2013 17: 08
                +2
                Quote: lazy
                Putin took Russia from the hands of the drunk Yeltsin in a state close to collapse, when the army was delayed for 4-5 months, when they immediately began to pay on time, albeit at first not much but in time, new equipment went, but little went


                Stalin took power in the fight against Trotsky, when there were other groups in the Kamenev-Zinoviev party, and Putin received the inheritance from Yeltsin and, together with the same Yeltsin people, Chubais, Kiriyenko, Nemtsov and other bastards, as well as his own killer box apparatus. In addition to Nemtsov, everyone else remained at work, they continue to diligently serve the kagal, ruin Russia.
              4. CTEPX
                CTEPX 18 May 2013 17: 43
                +1
                Quote: Horde
                Stalin took power in the fight against Trotsky

                Stalin received power from Lenin. IMHO.
              5. Horde
                Horde 18 May 2013 18: 18
                +1
                Quote: ctepx
                Quote: Horde
                Stalin took power in the fight against Trotsky

                Stalin received power from Lenin. IMHO.

                you don’t know history well, no one ever gives power, they only take power. According to Lenin’s letters, he did not like Stalin, or the redistribution of powers within one clan, like Yeltsin Putin.
              6. CTEPX
                CTEPX 18 May 2013 19: 04
                +1
                Quote: Horde
                Putin inherited power from Yeltsin

                Quote: Horde
                you know the story poorly, no one ever gives power, they only take power

                Well I do not know)).
    2. Grigory_78
      Grigory_78 14 October 2017 06: 36
      +1
      Putin is more liberal or something. Stalin would have already transplanted and shot a bunch of people for wrecking. Which would have a very beneficial effect on the pace of many works. On the other hand, Russia would be barked at all by anyone stronger than now. So the correlation of harm and benefit from a possible change of approach is extremely difficult to assess. I personally do not have enough data.
  • Horde
    Horde 18 May 2013 12: 22
    +5
    Are you referring to specialists from the Ministry of Commerce? laughing I trust the opinion of Valery Nikolaev, director of "Kuznetsov"


    the Internet is full of excellent reviews about the NK-32 engine, but you found some scumbags from the Ministry of Commerce and hold them for specialists.
  • k220150
    k220150 18 May 2013 13: 52
    +1
    This is from another opera!
  • Concept1
    Concept1 18 May 2013 11: 32
    +1
    OJSC "KUZNETSOV" is the largest enterprise in aviation and space engine building.
    1. Horde
      Horde 18 May 2013 11: 51
      +2
      Well, why are you showing me ... I’ll kill off some pride of the Soviet aviation industry NK-32 on a TU-160 airplane for the sake of which the plant was destroyed.
      not in power, nor in size, nor in any other parameters, he was close to the engine that you are showing here.

      1. Concept1
        Concept1 18 May 2013 12: 01
        +2
        NK-32 Class !!! Interestingly, they are preparing to release it in its original form or upgrade!? smile
  • k220150
    k220150 18 May 2013 13: 50
    +1
    Are you seriously? "State Aviation Plant No. 1 named after Osoaviakhim (GAZ No. 1). Before the Great Patriotic War, the plant was serially producing aircraft."
  • Grigory_78
    Grigory_78 28 May 2017 22: 39
    0
    "This country"?!! Do you have another, better? Go there, do not poison the air. When I hear or read this expression, I understand that there can be no talk of any patriotism - a person hates the country in which he lives. And it is quite likely at one time that he also hated the USSR.
  • fedot.uncle
    fedot.uncle 18 May 2013 09: 31
    +6
    I am proud that I had the opportunity to communicate with Boris Katorgin during the work on the program of promoting RD-120, and then RD-170/180 to the American market. Man! I was a small cog in a large team, but the academician remembered me after five years. It is a pity that he did not mention American partners - engineers and technicians from Pratt & Whitney, together with whom he was able to test Soviet rocket technology in the US for the first time - test stand No. 8. West Palm Beach, Florida.
  • crasever
    crasever 18 May 2013 09: 34
    +4
    The whole (!!!) unique American technological lunar reserve has been forgotten ... Okay, there are f-1 engines, but the suits are tested on the Moon, weighing only 83 kg. against the current 150 kg with greater mobility, can it be used on the ISS ?! About the loss of technology is not necessary - they have even stepped forward in this area. Here you have the famous American pragmatism (how much does the kilogram delivered to the ISS cost?) ...
    1. CTEPX
      CTEPX 18 May 2013 10: 28
      +4
      Quote: crasever
      The whole (!!!) unique American technological lunar reserve is forgotten ...

      Quote: crasever
      spacesuits tested on the moon, weighing only 83 kg. against the current 150 pounds

      Is that your banter? Neither Apollo, nor, of course, spacesuits, as you know, were on the Moon)).
      1. crasever
        crasever 18 May 2013 16: 55
        +4
        I agree with you, excuse me for the banter - I whipped with the "Americans" who express themselves in Russia on this topic, so I'm already blowing into the water ... It's not even the flag waving there and the properties of moon dust on the footprints of the soles of the lunar pioneers - serious educated guys in Russia, they carried out a huge work on combining the maps of the moon, obtained by automatic machines, Soviet and American, and filming the landscapes of the heroic Apollo from the surface - it does not coincide, even if it bursts, and the European probe was disgraced altogether - it "gave" one to one American photo of the lunar surface, of course , already with modern computer processing - but the details of the landscape are difficult to put somewhere !!!
    2. isker
      isker 9 August 2017 21: 15
      +1
      to speech: these vaunted American spacesuits - stood in the then green - 400 apiece and at the same time - had lightning (lightning, Karl!) - from the groin to the shoulder!
      although, of course - if you jump in the pavilion, then you can ...
  • koksalek
    koksalek 18 May 2013 10: 01
    +4
    Wonderful article! We wish there were more such people and in the echelons of power so as not to fill our pockets but to increase the welfare of the country! From the heart, plus
  • Asgard
    Asgard 18 May 2013 15: 21
    +7
    I read the article. I liked the comments, all the same smart people we have. A lie will be revealed not only by sound logic (Wait)), but also will receive documentary confirmation when the Russian People finally get out to the satellite, or rather when they can return from there))) ...

    Now about the technological progress in the West ... I have a few doubts here ... Some technologies suddenly appeared out of thin air))) flint transistors (chips with nuclear calculations))) An operating system that developers themselves cannot understand constantly patching))) there is still a number of oddities — Our scientists often go the wrong way in development, but in the West this is NOT ??? We were busy with gallium arsenide, Westerners used silicon right away ???? and so on (Moore's law for example))))
    the feeling is that they receive development from some source, only to advertise leadership (INTEL> APPLE)) the clearest example of this /////
    but there is NO significant progress along the path of progress ??? There is no natural movement forward? What is done is that which suppresses a person by community, that is, INDIVIDUALITY is persecuted .....
    By the way, the Commission on "pseudo-science" at the Russian Academy of Sciences from this series, scientists spread rot and often just kill ...

    So the Slavs read about the enemies of mankind between the lines))))
    1. sergeschern
      sergeschern 18 May 2013 20: 23
      +4
      Do you know who was the first cellular subscriber? J.V. Stalin! In 1943, "he called on sotik" from Tehran to Moscow, and a relay was built in Baku under the guise of an ordinary mail.
  • Santa Fe
    Santa Fe 18 May 2013 17: 27
    0
    Feast in Time of Plague

    No one pleads with the achievements of the Soviet Cosmonautics, but if the person who wrote this article had a sober look at things, he would have noticed that the Soviet stations never flew further than Venus and Mars.

    At the same time, the "lunar swindlers" were able to launch:
    interplanetary space probes Pioneer, Voyager, Viking, Cassini, Mariner, New Horizons, MESSENGER, Juno, rovers Spirit, Opportunity, Curiosity, Mars Pathfinder, Martian orbital reconnaissance, Odyssey, Ullis, Galileo - Dawn everything we know about the solar system is obtained from NASA

    When comparing the achievements of NASA with domestic astronautics, it becomes clear where the legs of the "first in space" myth grow - the USSR was the first where complex and expensive research is not required. To scatter pennants on the surfaces of nearby celestial bodies? Elementary Watson! But where complex and expensive real research was required, NASA quickly pulled ahead.

    On 1 on March 1966, the Soviet station first reached Venus. However, the station’s control system failed even before it approached the planet, so the station did not transmit any scientific data. The station crashed on the surface of Venus, delivering the pennant of the USSR there. A priority!

    But when it was necessary to map Venus, the USSR somehow fell silent - as a result, a special NASA probe Magellan carried out detailed mapping of the planet, having worked in the orbit of Venus for 5 years (from 1989 to 1994).


    On December 2, 1971, the Soviet "research" station Mars-3 was the first to reach the surface of Mars and went out of action 14 seconds after landing. Only 5 years later, on June 19, 1976, did the "hopelessly lagging" Americans reach Mars. The American station "Viking-1" worked on the surface of Mars for 2306 days (more than 6 years), having transmitted tens of thousands of high-quality panoramic photographs of Mars during this time, and carried out analyzes of the atmosphere and soil.
    All Soviet and Russian expeditions to Mars ended in failure, so everything we know about the Red Planet was obtained from NASA probes and rovers

    These are the thoughts an honest person has when he reads false patriotic articles "Why moon swindlers can't make the RD-180? " Isn't it embarrassing for the author to call the afersts those who have studied all the planets of the solar system and have been there where academician Katorgin was not even in his dreams?

    The American interplanetary station "New Horizons", launched in 2006 to study Pluto. The estimated time of arrival in the vicinity of the distant planet is 2015.
    1. fzr1000
      fzr1000 18 May 2013 22: 20
      +3
      Something you all have in one heap.
      The Americans conducted interplanetary research, no one doubts, but this does not mean that they landed on the moon. Launching a satellite-probe-rover is one thing, especially in our time, and landing and taking off from the moon in the 60s is completely different. Then, in our country, the "Party and Government" gave priority to orbital manned multi-day flights, with "people's" money, for only "known" reasons, and in the USA, in addition to budget funding, there are private programs, and, obviously, NASA's capabilities and priorities were different and now they are.
      1. Santa Fe
        Santa Fe 19 May 2013 00: 52
        0
        Quote: fzr1000
        Americans conducted interplanetary research, no one doubts

        This is the whole point of NASA. But people who write such articles reduce everything to flying to the moon
        Spit on the moon! The Yankees have much more interesting projects - annually for several launches to celestial bodies

        Plan for 2013 year:
        - August, Lunar Atmosphere and Dust Environment Explorer (exploring the moon)
        - November, MAVEN probe (exploration of the atmosphere of Mars)
        Quote: fzr1000
        letting a satellite-probe-rover roam is one thing, especially in our time, and landing-taking off from the moon in 60's is completely different.

        The question is complex and no one knows the answer to it
        The facts are as follows:

        - In 1969, the United States had the technical ability to make a manned expedition to the moon (returned, naturally). There is no doubt about this - the Yankees had all the necessary technologies

        - enormous funds were allocated for the program

        - 40 years have passed, but not a single real fact of falsification has surfaced. It is impossible to keep such a scam in time, in which hundreds of thousands of people are involved.

        - the flight to the moon took place "under the hood" of the USSR. Soviet radio telescopes and RT reconnaissance systems carefully monitored the progress of the expedition - it was known to within a meter where the signal was coming from. However, no "revelations" followed

        - the successful start of the super-heavy LV "Saturn" was observed with their own eyes by hundreds of thousands of witnesses; the most important element of the expedition - a launch vehicle with a launch weight of 3000 tons existed

        - All this was repeated six times in a row.
        1. isker
          isker 9 August 2017 21: 24
          0
          are you talking nonsense!
          there was no “cap”! Leonov - he’s just lying - the American 4th fleet of 16 ships - was not allowed to conduct radio monitoring of any of our two ships! By the way, when the USSR launched its first satellite - there was a special call to the English observatory and the initial data were transmitted - so that the British could track the flight!
          what does Saturn's “successful start” have to do with it? - ordinary suborbital flight ... or you look right up to the moon - can you "reach"?
          you are right only in one thing - "disclosure" neither then - nor now - it never happened, but that does not mean that it will not happen! ..
    2. Farpost
      Farpost April 15 2018 05: 27
      0
      And no one refutes NASA's achievements in space, but besides achievements there is a scam, why should achievements achieve level it?
      Regarding how we lagged behind in the design and launch of automatic devices, here you are a little wrong, our science has something to be proud of, but compare NASA funding yourself, largely not only from the US budget and our funding, as well as 20 years of decline under the leadership of from Gorbachev and Yeltsin to actually 2010. Plus, the United States emphasized interplanetary automatic stations, and ours on orbital - that is, achievements and technologies went in different directions, and as a result, the same Americans admit that without the Russian ISS modules there would have been no ...
  • Ataman
    Ataman 18 May 2013 18: 45
    -1
    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
    everything we know about the Red Planet is obtained from NASA probes and rovers

    And what useful (justifying the cost of the expedition) we learned from NASA rovers?
    1. snek
      snek 18 May 2013 21: 18
      0
      Quote: Ataman
      And what useful (justifying the cost of the expedition) we learned from NASA rovers?

      According to this logic, space can be scored for the next 50 years, because there is nothing useful (justifying the cost of expeditions) there. It will be limited to communication and positioning satellites.
    2. Santa Fe
      Santa Fe 18 May 2013 21: 37
      -2
      Quote: Ataman
      And what useful (justifying the cost of the expedition) we learned from NASA rovers?

      And what useful (justifying the cost of the expedition) did we learn from Gagarin and the Mir orbital station? The only major invention in 50 years of controlled space exploration is the development of diaper technology. wink

      Do you want water? - the investigator broke the decanter on my head, - the Soviet state does not need your fireworks and pyrotechnics
      - from the memoirs of S.P. Queen
  • datur
    datur 18 May 2013 20: 00
    0
    good, not all sold out !!!
  • jagdpanzer
    jagdpanzer 18 May 2013 22: 28
    0
    a certain Lana Sator has a photo of Energomash, I don’t know how she climbed there, but the pictures are monumental in the sense of the structure there are very grandiose
  • audentes
    audentes 18 May 2013 23: 01
    0
    The release of secrets through the media
  • barbiturate
    barbiturate 19 May 2013 09: 22
    +2
    the article is very interesting, but the name posed a question to the scientist about the F-1 engine, about the very funny parameters of this engine and their obvious unattainability with the designs that the amers then used. The academician would be asked if he could create a single-chamber engine with 690t thrust at sea level with a pressure in the combustion chamber of 7MPa and such materials as if he would overcome a number of insurmountable factors (there are a lot of interesting calculations by doctors of sciences and the same academics, and if you like and I'm with a technical education, it’s generally terribly fascinating at the beginning and funny after comprehension at the end). You can do even simpler simply by thinking why the amers have nothing like our RD-170/180/191, although 50 years ago they created SINGLE-CHAMBER engines with a thrust of 690 tons at sea level. Ours come simply and get the engines of the required traction and parameters based on the already beaten paths and the really existing engines that work. Amer chose to forget his F-1 as a nightmare, to a landfill and nothing like that anymore, not half the power, nor any ... Unrealistic
    1. Horde
      Horde 19 May 2013 09: 55
      0
      The academician would be asked if he could create a single-chamber engine with 690t thrust at sea level

      so academics are silent, like a fish on ice, except as here the site from velor did not say anything reasonable
      http://free-inform.com/
  • shinobi
    shinobi 19 May 2013 10: 48
    +1
    Why can't the Yankees reproduce the achievements of Soviet and Russian origin? The answer is actually very simple. It consists of several factors. 1) The average American is extremely rarely faced with the situation of man-made domestic survival. If something is needed, or it breaks down, he goes and buys. specialist. There is no need for him and scope for small invention. 2) Their vaunted education system. Those who would like to learn and develop are simply not able to do this. Everything depends on money. By the way, this also awaits if not ernomsya to the Soviet system obrazovaniya.Chastnye school also let it be as septic tanks for rich bydla.3) Their vaunted pragmatizm.Kotory actually ordinary zhlobstvo.I thing! Their impenetrable belief dollar.V fact that everything can be bought and nafig need to hang back.

    PS: About the fact that America is slowly losing its scientific and technical potential quietly, their scientists started talking on the sidelines back in the mid-90s of the last century, when it turned out that they could not reproduce their own designs under the Saturn program. Where can we copy the engines of the backward Russia. so far it does not threaten, but a similar unpleasant tendency has been outlined. Plus, neither in our country nor in the West there is a clear, understandable to everyone, explanation of why fundamental space programs are needed.
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  • ratcatcher
    ratcatcher 31 October 2015 01: 45
    +1
    An excellent article with such a more than strange title. Why mix "lunar cospirology" with a documentary article about domestic achievements in engine building?
    1. demo
      demo 5 July 2017 17: 17
      0
      Thats exactly what I mean.
      Not serious.
  • Fidel
    Fidel 31 October 2016 00: 29
    +1
    There is no stand, no engine, no rocket, no ship. But they were on the moon! lol
    And evidence from the area "MOTHER KEELINUS!" And what pragmatic ones ...)))
    It is understandable. The rocket will not fall out of the kin.
    Pragmatic. laughing
  • demo
    demo 5 July 2017 17: 16
    0
    The article is interesting, smart, informative.
    But what does the "moon swindlers" have to do with it.

    if it is understood that the Americans were not on the moon, then let the statement of the Russian leadership follow, with the provision of irrefutable facts and evidence.
    If there was no such statement, and we continue to officially consider Americans to be the first discoverers of our Earth satellite, then there is no need to cast a shadow over the wattle fence.
  • Mikhail Zubkov
    Mikhail Zubkov 30 August 2017 22: 26
    0
    CTEPX,
    Who is the Secretary General of the CPSU (B.) In 1922? When the People’s Commissariat of War and the Pre-Military Council - Trotsky? L.B. Bronstein, followed by the Comintern and world freemasonry, not to mention the Red Army, including 100 regiments of the “Red Cossacks” in Ukraine and several armies in the Siberian Republic?
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  • gridasov
    gridasov 15 March 2018 20: 35
    +1
    Quote: manganese
    Read it here. There are opinions of very competent people.
    http://igor-grek.ucoz.ru/publ/kosmos/manonmoon/19
    -1-0-1024

    щ