Military Review

T-72 - survival in battle

368
According to rating tanks the world, prepared by the American agency Forecast International, the best tank currently is the American M1A2 SEP Abrams of General Dynamics Corporation, which has proven itself during the war in Iraq. In second place is the Israeli Merkava Mk IV tank from Israel Ordnance Corps. He also showed excellent performance during the fighting. In third place is the Japanese Type 90 from Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. It was created on the basis of the German "Leopard-2", but due to the numerous innovations of the "Type 90" in technological terms, it can be considered the most advanced tank in the world. However, there is no experience of its combat use. For the same reasons, the last modification of the German tank Leopard-2A6 (manufacturer - Krauss-Maffei Wegmann) took only fourth place.


What is remarkable and quite natural, in the ranking there was no place for the Russian T-72 and T-90С tanks, which are very widely used in various local wars and armed conflicts. For example, T-90С has already managed to perfectly show itself in tank battles on the Indo-Pakistan border. Moreover, it is the only tank in the world that has successfully passed test runs in the Indian Thar Desert and the jungles of Malaysia. But most importantly, the compilers of the rating did not take into account the results of hostilities during the operation in Dagestan and the Chechen Republic. Here, the Russian T-72 tanks and even the "veterans" of the T-62 far surpassed in survivability the vaunted "Abrams" used in the course of the aggression against Iraq.

Presented by the Americans as invulnerable and without measure praised by the American (and for good money by our own) media, the Abrams, however, was successfully struck by the Soviet-made anti-tank weapons that were used by the Iraqi army. Including hand-held anti-tank grenade launchers. They were mainly affected by onboard, stern and upper parts of the tank.

In this regard, the author found it necessary to talk about two of the many combat episodes he knew, in which the high reliability and survivability of Russian tanks were clearly demonstrated.

During the counter-terrorist operation in the North Caucasus region of the Russian Federation, units and units of both the North Caucasus and other military districts operated in the United Group of Forces (forces). In this case, we will focus on the actions of the division 506 Guards. MSW 27 Guards MICD of the Volga Military District (since September 1 2001 - Privolzhsko-Uralsky Military District). This regiment showed itself very well when performing combat missions during the first Chechen campaign, from February 1995 to the autumn 1996. Its units also competently and selflessly fought during the second Chechen campaign, including soldiers of the tank battalion . At the same time, in fights with militants, not only good training, courage and heroism of military personnel were shown, but also high reliability and survivability of military equipment were demonstrated.

Thus, in early January, 2000, in the course of hostilities to liberate Grozny, one of the regiment's assault squads led fierce battles in the area of ​​the railway depot. The actions of the motorized infantry, as expected, were supported by the T-72B tanks of the regiment's tank battalion. The enemy defended stubbornly and desperately, skillfully using large quantities of anti-tank grenade launchers and even anti-tank systems. Therefore, despite the well-organized and constantly maintained interaction of tanks with infantry, a powerful fire damage inflicted on the enemy by artillery, combat vehicles were still subjected to repeated hits of grenades and even ATGM.

T-72 - survival in battle

1,2. Tank T-72B №613 - "friend" tank №611, both of the 1-second tank platoon. The wounds of the combat vehicle are clearly visible. Khankala, June 2000


3. Tank 72B №611, front view and on the left side. It is prepared for following to the station for loading on a railway transport and sending to a place of constant deployment. The tower is turned back and locked, the trunk is additionally secured with a regular towing cable. Traces of active combat activity are clearly visible on the combat vehicle. Khankala, June 2000


4. Tank T-72B №611, rear view on the right side. Khankala, June 2000


In the course of these battles, the tank with airborne No.611 from / tr. During the 2 of the day of continuous combat, the 3 ATGM of the Fagot class and 6 grenades from RPG-7 fell into this car.

The hits occurred in the following parts of the tank.

ATGM - to the left under the tower (all):

• two - to the fuel tanks on the fences under the turret, which the tank crews always kept “dry” during the fighting. Bucky swelled and torn, then the elements of the hinged dynamic protection on the tower worked, there was no armor penetration;

• one - in the board under the tower; reflected by the triggered element mounted dynamic protection mounted on rubber metal side screens.

Grenades from RPG-7:

• one - on top of the commander's hatch of the tower; a cumulative jet pierced the hatch and, without hitting the tank commander, went into the aft wall of the tower;

• two - to the left in the upper frontal part of the tower; neutralized with activated elements of mounted dynamic protection;

• three - on the hull side, 2 on the left and 1 on the right; all reflected by dynamic protection elements mounted on rubber-metal side screens.


5. The fuel tank on the right flank of the tank # XXUMX, swollen and exploded as a result of hitting the cumulative RPG grenades (in a combat situation, as expected, was empty). The fuel tanks on tank No.613 in January 611 also looked the same after the ATGM hit them. Khankala, June 2000


6. "Burn" from getting ATGM in the dynamic protection of the tower of one of the tanks T-72B. Khankala, June 2000


7. Brewed hole from the cumulative PG-7 grenade in the stern sheet of the hull of the T-72B tank No. 623. And no memories ...
Khankala, June 2000



8,9. Fragments of the left side of the tank T-72B №623. Khankala, June 2000

As a result, not a single hit resulted in the loss of combat capability of the tank, which continuously continued to perform the combat mission. This fact was confirmed during the personal conversation of the author with the commander of this tank and the company commander in June 2000. Moreover, the commanders of the units confirmed that all the other battalion tanks had been repeatedly hit by an anti-tank missile and RPG grenades, had explosions on mines and land mines . But all the crews remained alive, and the tanks were efficient! After explosions on mines and land mines, the equipment was restored in a short time, either by the forces of the crews, or by military repair agencies, depending on the nature of the damage received.

The photographs taken by the author in the summer of 2000 showed tank No. 611 and some others with characteristic traces of the effects of ATGM and cumulative grenades from various RPGs. The combat vehicles were in the field park in Khankala and prepared for transportation by rail to the place of permanent deployment, therefore, many of them have towers turned towards the stern.

I would like to note that much more new and "invulnerable" American tanks hitting grenades from RPGs in the side screens covering the sides above the support rollers, had sad consequences: armored screens and hulls penetrated, after which the tanks, as a rule, were burned out.


10. The right fender of one of the tanks of the 2 tank company. Here, too, was the fuel tank, destroyed by a grenade from an RPG. Has got also to the next tank. Khankala, June 2000

A very interesting and illustrative incident occurred with the tank number XXUMX (623 tr of the same tank battalion). In the middle of December, 2 was the entrance of hostilities in the 1999 town of Grozny, one of the units of the 15 Guards. The company received a combat mission to unlock the surrounded unit of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation and ensure its access to the location of our units.

The task was successfully completed. When covering the withdrawal of the Internal Troops unit, tank No.623 pulled forward to the square and, breaking away from the cover of motorized riflemen, acted alone, actively maneuvered and conducted intense and effective fire on the enemy, which stunned the militants, inflicted heavy losses and greatly contributed to successful the exit of our units from the environment.
After receiving the command to retreat by radio, the tank began to depart not in reverse, but turned around.

To cover the departure of his tower was turned back. Thus, he gave the enemy a poorly protected feed. Errors in the war are not forgiven: the militants immediately opened up strong and accurate fire from grenade launchers. As a result, the combat vehicle received 3 hits of anti-tank grenades from RPG-7 in a short period of time:

• the first is in a metal barrel aft for additional fuel (in a battle on tanks, these barrels were always “dry”). A cumulative jet pierced through a barrel that immediately cracked along the welds, but the tank hull was not pierced

• the second - in the side of the hull; it was neutralized by hinged dynamic protection elements mounted on rubber-metal side screens;

• the third - in the lower part of the stern sheet, while the shooting mercenary Arab was “cut off” by a machine-gun burst from the tank; a cumulative jet, breaking through the stern sheet, pierced the lower part of the engine crankcase and “stalled” at the partition in the fighting compartment.

Nevertheless, the tank, under its own power, with the engine crankcase (!) Broken from below, passed 300 m at high speed and took shelter in a nearby street, in the location of our troops. There the crew stopped the car and quickly left it. The tank crews reported that oil-but-fuel mist began to appear inside the tank and that a fire and explosion could occur. Soon the engine stalled. But nothing caught fire or exploded. In a short time, the engine was replaced, the inlet from the cumulative grenade was welded, and the tank again with the same crew performed combat missions before being withdrawn from Chechnya.


11. The author of the article with the crew of the T-72B tank, called up from the Samara region, before going on escort of the convoy to the Vedeno gorge. Above the blocks with mounted dynamic protection on the turret there are boxes with cartridges for a twin PKT machine gun. The tank had a KMT-7 anti-mine roller trawl (not visible in the photo) and walked in the head of the column. Khankala, April 1996

In general, the tank battalion 506 Guards. MSP, which had a T-31B tank in 72 state, for 8 months (autumn 1999 - winter and spring 2000) had no continuous fighting in the plains, in the city and mountainous regions of Chechnya. The only exception was one tank, which constantly and too often "found" mines and land mines, and the crew, respectively, received contusions. He was recognized as “unlucky,” “terribly unlucky,” and after another blast, at the urgent request of the battalion and regiment command, he was handed over to the repair and restoration battalion to be sent to a repair plant. “Bad luck” with frequent explosions stopped. It is impossible to explain this from a scientific point of view, but it happens in war.

The reasons for the high survivability of Russian tanks are, above all, the well-thought-out design of combat vehicles created in accordance with the principles and rules of the Soviet (inherited - Russian) tank school. The same applies to subsequent upgrades conducted in accordance with our Russian understanding of the further development of armored vehicles.

Along with this, it should be noted, and a sufficiently high quality manufacturing tanks. Exactly. Of course, there are flaws in the design, there is also a factory defect during the construction of combat vehicles. Without this, there is no. But still it is more the exception to the rule than the law. With proper operation and timely maintenance, our military equipment will never let you down.

An important reason for the high survivability of combat vehicles was the fact that during the counter-terrorist operation, the technical support of military operations was well organized and carried out. This made it possible to service tanks in a timely and efficient manner and, in a short time, to repair equipment that received combat damage.

Along with this, the most important reason for the successful use of tanks in the second Chechen campaign, in contrast to the first, is a much higher level of professional training for servicemen. This ensured the correct use of combat vehicles, maintaining close interaction with motorized infantry, operating on foot, and destroying enemy grenade launchers (priority goals!) During combat operations. The enemy was not allowed to fire at RPG tanks without difficulty and, especially, to hit them in the upper and aft parts of the hull and turret. The tasks of engineering support were solved in a timely and effective manner, which made it possible to minimize the explosions of combat vehicles on mines and land mines of the enemy.
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  1. Canep
    Canep 14 May 2013 07: 18
    57
    Let the Americans think that their tanks are the best, although I do not think that American tankers think so, especially those who got radiation sickness. Underestimating the enemy is the path to defeat. The T-72B in security is not inferior to Abrams, and the T-90 significantly surpasses it. And even in the case of the destruction of our tank, 3 zinc will fly to their homeland, and in the case of Abrams 4th.
    1. bask
      bask 14 May 2013 07: 45
      10 th
      No need to engage in cap-making. The M1 tank, Abrams, weighs 70 tons, and the T-72B-44 tons.
      While the BC in our tanks will not be protected, the bottom without mine protection.
      There will always be a threat of VK detonation.
      Israeli V-shaped Merkava
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 14 May 2013 07: 54
        67
        Quote: bask
        Tank M1, Abrams, weighs 70 tons, and T-72B-44 tons.

        Weight does not really matter. A lighter tank can be better protected than a heavier tank.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 14 May 2013 08: 10
          42
          A valiant minuser is aware that with an equal reservation a tank with less armor space will be easier? Or do not bother with such trifles?
        2. avt
          avt 14 May 2013 10: 13
          41
          Quote: bask
          No need to engage in cap-making. The M1 tank, Abrams, weighs 70 tons, and the T-72B-44 tons.
          While the BC in our tanks will not be protected, the bottom without mine protection.
          There will always be a threat of VK detonation.
          Israeli V-shaped Merkava

          I agree, but one should not go to the other extreme and self-flagellate, the governors have already agreed that the T-72 is not different from the T-34. No one will have an ideal car. We need to objectively know the weaknesses and use the strengths, but it already depends on the training of the crew and command. request
          1. wecher75
            wecher75 18 May 2013 13: 53
            +3
            I agree, there are no ideal tanks. In addition, I do not think that the Abrams showed themselves well. There was simply nothing to show, everything could be organized to resist, it was destroyed from the air
        3. Zubr
          Zubr 19 May 2013 18: 58
          +1
          I absolutely agree with you. Given that our tanks were designed to break through armored formations, from here our tank is lighter and more nimble on the battlefield, combined with a powerful gun and has the longest arm in the tank world. Abrams was not created for a breakthrough, but a defense, of course, a completely different concept, a design, although quite smart. I am more than sure that the external fuel tanks, in dry form, were provided by the designers as additional protection against cumulative ammunition.
          And of course, the training of the crews and the time spent by those are very important. service.
      2. kot11180
        kot11180 14 May 2013 08: 10
        23
        Bq M1 is also not protected, getting into a huge feed niche is much easier than in an automatic loader located in the center of the protected building on the floor, and it weighs more because of the huge reserved volume (Western tank building school), so these are not indicators
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 14 May 2013 08: 13
          13
          They say that the loader is "worth" 3-4 cubic meters of reserve.
          1. Canep
            Canep 14 May 2013 08: 18
            19
            Or tons of 8-10 armor. Americans keep ammunition for armor because of the weight saving of the armor, but not for humane reasons.
          2. svp67
            svp67 14 November 2019 04: 10
            0
            Quote: Spade
            They say that the loader is "worth" 3-4 cubic meters of reserve.

            Why "speak"? A person with a height of 170-175 cm, must stand at full height, so moreover, to be able to "nurse" the shells, transporting them in a horizontal plane from the ammunition rack to the breech of the gun, and, moreover, at the same time, the minimum safe gaps must be fuse or capsule, during this transportation, which piece of iron not to hit. So consider the total length of the art shot plus the gaps, this is in the horizon multiplied by the height
        2. Vanches
          Vanches 14 November 2019 02: 51
          0
          Only in practice, they suffer from undermining teshes, not Abrams
      3. Canep
        Canep 14 May 2013 08: 16
        55
        If you need a mine trawl to a tank place, then you can use Merkava. This is, firstly, and secondly, the shells were also stacked in the Abrams tower, and believe me, the tanker will not care if one shell detonates or 22 pieces. So these are not criteria. And to evaluate tanks by weight is in my opinion the limit of stupidity. And from the photo you can see that the Jews did not even think of torsion bars. So that the tanks on the mines were not undermined, sappers should work.
        1. Professor
          Professor 14 May 2013 08: 22
          +1
          Quote: Canep
          And from the photo it is clear that the Jews did not even think of torsion bars.

          The ultimate did not come up with. In addition, according to the words of the tankers, they were so tormented with torsions on the teshes used on the stony Golan Heights that there is no chance to see them on Israeli armored vehicles.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 14 May 2013 08: 24
            14
            Just high-quality metal must be applied.
            1. Professor
              Professor 14 May 2013 08: 26
              +2
              There were original Soviet-made torsions. Soviet were not high quality? wink
              1. Timeout
                Timeout 14 May 2013 08: 36
                17
                There were original Soviet-made torsions. Soviet were not high quality?

                Was the hodovka also shaken up on "Akhzar"? The professor is lying again!
                1. Professor
                  Professor 14 May 2013 08: 47
                  +1
                  Go teach the materiel and read the well-known reviews of tankers who served on Tirana, and then blame it on lies. fool
                  For your information on "Akhzar" hodovka also shocked. The torsion bar suspension was strengthened and the vertical stroke of the track rollers was increased; hydraulic shock absorbers similar to those installed on the Merkava tank are mounted on the first and last suspension nodes.
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 14 May 2013 08: 50
                    10
                    Quote: Professor
                    The torsion bar was reinforced and the vertical travel of the track rollers was increased.

                    Here is the answer for you
                  2. Timeout
                    Timeout 14 May 2013 09: 01
                    14
                    For your information, the hodovka was also shaken up on "Akhzar". The torsion bar suspension was reinforced and the vertical travel of the road wheels was increased; on the first and last suspension nodes mounted hydraulic shock absorbers, similar to those installed on the tank "Merkava".
                    And damn it thought torsion bar changed to antigrav. And about hydraulic shock absorbers, they were put on the T-62M after the weight of the tank increased, compared with the T-55. Innovators damn ...
                    1. Professor
                      Professor 14 May 2013 09: 04
                      14 th
                      And who is lying here now?



                      Damn Oleg sorry the wrong pedal pressed. Vadivak
                      1. Timeout
                        Timeout 14 May 2013 09: 16
                        18
                        Do you want to be taught the history of the development of Soviet tank building? Or do you know the difference between the T-55 and T-62 ?. Dear, I do not diminish the capabilities of Israeli engineers, only the improvements you told you were accepted in the tank of the younger series after the T-55, and this is a regularity. The old chassis was weak, and it was strengthened. Or were your eggheads unaware and they developed the suspension again?
                      2. Professor
                        Professor 14 May 2013 09: 25
                        22 th
                        Do not bump into verbiage. You accused me of lying "Was the hodovka also shaken up on "Akhzar"? The professor is lying again!"and it turns out, yes, they shook the running gear on Akhzar. You won’t apologize, of course?
                      3. Timeout
                        Timeout 14 May 2013 09: 31
                        14
                        The suspension was modernized, but the principles of work did not change. You have to write like that. And it turns out that, developers in the USSR did not think that half the world drives 55 with a torsion bar suspension. And Ahzarit’s weight is almost 7 tons higher than that of 62. They’re flying torsion bars ...
                      4. Professor
                        Professor 14 May 2013 09: 53
                        -3
                        The suspension was modernized, but the principles of work did not change.

                        Modernized due to poor reliability in a particular theater of operations.

                        And it turns out that, developers in the USSR did not think that half the world drives 55 with a torsion bar suspension.

                        That fly is a medical fact. And the tank was designed to fight around the world, and as in any universality, you had to pay for it. such is the harsh reality of life.

                        And Ahzarit’s weight is almost 7 tons higher than that of 62. They’re flying torsion bars ...

                        Again materiel, dear. Torsion aircraft flew long before Ahzarit in their native T-55 adopted by the Tsakhal. And this is also a medical fact if you want.
                      5. imrek_ua
                        imrek_ua 14 May 2013 17: 04
                        +9
                        I'm sorry, of course, but the article about the T-72. Why did you start talking about Teshki on the Golan Heights, that is, about the T-55? Your arguments are incorrect.
            2. baton140105
              baton140105 14 May 2013 10: 54
              31
              What are you? This is PROFESSOR !!! Do not argue with him and do not doubt the superiority of Israel ABOUT EVERYTHING, especially in military technology !!!!
              1. Professor
                Professor 14 May 2013 11: 40
                11 th
                And you decided to practice osllamy? I just cited the facts about the insufficient reliability of the torsion bar suspension of tanks in a particular theater of operations.
              2. leon-iv
                leon-iv 14 May 2013 11: 43
                +8
                And you decided to practice osllamy? I just cited the facts about the insufficient reliability of the torsion bar suspension of tanks in a particular theater of operations.

                Prof hammer. Who understands what is at stake does not argue, but to others it makes no sense to prove. But oddly enough, the article is interesting.
              3. smirnov
                smirnov 14 May 2013 14: 00
                12
                I just cited the facts
                ... As always, always and everywhere, in any dispute, only one country in the world has all the best, well, the United States also has a little misunderstanding, but there are also designers of equipment of only one nationality. Well, g ** but only with us yes professor?
              4. Professor
                Professor 14 May 2013 14: 42
                +6
                Quote: smirnov
                . Well and g ** but only with us, yes professor?

                g ** but it is international and everyone has it for various reasons.
            3. Cap-3 USSR
              Cap-3 USSR 15 May 2013 14: 54
              0
              Why didn’t they take the example of 1940-41 and the t-34? They were also raw then.
            4. ilya63
              ilya63 19 May 2013 15: 17
              +1
              dear you yourself, in which theater of the DB you fought as someone and on whose side? Or maybe you didn’t see the tank alive, if you are talking bullshit about torsion bars
            5. alex21411
              alex21411 19 May 2013 18: 57
              +1
              Of course, everything is special with Israel, even a theater of military operations) I’m in A.U. twice ... not three times ...
          2. gizz
            gizz 14 May 2013 15: 10
            +5
            A professor, as someone who once drove a Zaporozhets, should know that the overload of torsion bars (who does not know: the Zaporozhets has a trunk in front)) + a bad road inevitably leads to their replacement. So the extra seven tones for such a suspension is not enough.
          3. Professor
            Professor 14 May 2013 15: 13
            +3
            The zapik did not overload, it was already warming up, but the roads brought him many troubles.
          4. gizz
            gizz 14 May 2013 18: 18
            +1
            Designed cheaper, saved on the engine. And our roads (except for toll roads, of course) bring trouble to any car). But the same can be said about the tank: in a rocky desert or mountains, the suspension will live less than in the steppe or on asphalt.
      4. gagarinneon
        gagarinneon 14 May 2013 15: 54
        +9
        we already argued with him, I understood that it was meaningless. In one word, "Jews are everywhere and in everything first."
      5. Ruslan67
        Ruslan67 15 May 2013 04: 41
        11
        Quote: gagarinneon
        . In one word, "Jews are everywhere and in everything first."

        I probably agree good They are the first in the world whom they started to beat without looking at the passport. wassat
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 14 May 2013 08: 37
    10
    I do not know. Our torsion bars did not fly either on "rocky heights" or in impassable mud. Maybe your devices were simply overloaded?
    1. Professor
      Professor 14 May 2013 08: 47
      -8
      What overloaded? The walkie-talkie and the new gun?
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 14 May 2013 08: 52
        14
        I do not know. It looks like they just made the torsion bars work in an excessively hard mode, "increasing the vertical travel of the rollers." Strength materials poorly your "modernizers" know.
        1. Professor
          Professor 14 May 2013 08: 58
          0
          Running Tiranov has not undergone modernization. Here you have the 5 points theorem.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 14 May 2013 09: 07
            20
            Well then, your statements that "we have suffered with torsions" are just fairy tales. It is necessary to justify the frankly outdated suspension installed on the "Merkavas".
          2. Professor
            Professor 14 May 2013 09: 12
            -4
            Quote: Spade
            Well then, your statements that "we have suffered with torsions" are just fairy tales.

            As proof of your words, can you bring the Tirana tanks still in service? laughing By the way, how quickly got rid of them? Cause?

            It is necessary to justify the frankly outdated suspension installed on the "Merkavas".

            Well the goof was Tal General of armored forces, what did he understand in tanks? Is he a living tank at all except at the training ground somewhere? wink
          3. Lopatov
            Lopatov 14 May 2013 09: 22
            21
            You see, in our regiment for all the time there was not a single breakdown of the torsion bars. So either you compose, or your hands grow out of the wrong place.

            Quote: Professor
            Well the goof was Tal General of armored forces, what did he understand in tanks? Is he a living tank at all except at the training ground somewhere?

            Of course goof. Otherwise, I would have obtained from my own industry a modern suspension. In an extreme case, the Americans would help
          4. Professor
            Professor 14 May 2013 09: 28
            14 th
            Quote: Spade
            You see, in our regiment for all the time there was not a single breakdown of the torsion bars.

            Did your regiment serve in the Golan Heights? laughing

            So either you compose, or your hands grow out of the wrong place.

            Of course I compose. Are you too lazy to google yourself?

            Of course goof. Otherwise, I would have obtained from my own industry a modern suspension.

            You are in a blow today. good
          5. yanus
            yanus 14 May 2013 10: 05
            31
            Quote: Professor
            Did your regiment serve in the Golan Heights? laughing

            Damn, you are sick of your globe of Israel. Israel is not the whole world. He is not at all interested in civilized countries, only Arabs are soaring.
          6. Professor
            Professor 14 May 2013 10: 26
            -3
            And I do not speak for the whole world, but only that in this theater of operations there were problems with torsion bars. hi
      2. Kars
        Kars 14 May 2013 10: 32
        +7
        Quote: Spade
        Of course goof. Otherwise, I would have obtained from my own industry a modern suspension.

        For Carrots, a good suspension worked out at the Centurions.
        On MK1 it was still rather weak, then everyone pulled it up. Yes, and after mine explosions it is easier to treat.

        PS this is not a mine, just in case
      3. Papakiko
        Papakiko 14 May 2013 12: 40
        0
        Quote: Kars
        PS this is not a mine, just in case

        Good photo, sorry not to see the depth closer.
        There is also?
      4. Kars
        Kars 14 May 2013 12: 54
        +3
        Quote: Papakiko
        There is also?

        Of course, both the report from the rem plant and the estimated cost of repairs))))
      5. saturn.mmm
        saturn.mmm 14 May 2013 15: 16
        18
        And there is
      6. klimpopov
        klimpopov 14 May 2013 15: 48
        +3
        Old photo. Although there the tower flew far away ...
      7. saturn.mmm
        saturn.mmm 14 May 2013 17: 25
        +1
        Quote: klimpopov
        Old photo. Although there the tower flew far away ...

        And why did it fly away?
      8. Kars
        Kars 14 May 2013 18: 31
        +5
        Well this is Abrams, there are many abrams.
        Quote: saturn.mmm
        And why did it fly away?

        land mine, very decent.
      9. The comment was deleted.
      10. saturn.mmm
        saturn.mmm 14 May 2013 22: 51
        +1
        Quote: Kars
        land mine, very decent.

        It is claimed that in my case a 152 mm shell.
      11. Kars
        Kars 14 May 2013 22: 57
        +4
        Quote: saturn.mmm
        It is claimed that in my case a 152 mm shell.

        It is possible - 10 pieces connected in one bookmark.
      12. Kars
        Kars 14 May 2013 22: 59
        +3
        ________________________
  • Genady1976
    Genady1976 14 May 2013 18: 45
    +4
    so etozh abasrams
  • Yemelya
    Yemelya 14 May 2013 20: 11
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    For Carrots, a good suspension worked out at the Centurions.

    There is a common misconception that the "Merkava" suspension is borrowed from the "Centurion", probably due to the fact that they have interchangeable rollers, but the "Centurion" rollers are interlocked in pairs in carts, while the "Merkava" has individual roller suspension.
  • Kars
    Kars 14 May 2013 20: 15
    +1
    Quote: Emelya
    The "Centurion" rollers are interlocked in pairs into carts, while the "Merkava" has individual roller suspension.

    Say that there are still no springs.
  • Kars
    Kars 14 May 2013 20: 20
    +2
    And during the exploitation of the Centurions, the Jews did not study its suspension. Or is it more like the Sherman? M-60?
  • Yemelya
    Yemelya 14 May 2013 20: 44
    +3
    Quote: Kars
    And during the exploitation of the Centurions, the Jews did not study its suspension. Or is it more like the Sherman? M-60?

    Who doubts what they studied. And it was found to be very resistant to the effects of mines. But they didn't copy it. And the suspension is locked and individual - the difference, in my opinion, is not small. And who it looks more like ... maybe the suspension of the Churchill - that was famous for the high survivability of the chassis (although, to be honest, I did not study the suspension device).
  • Kars
    Kars 14 May 2013 21: 35
    +1
    Quote: Emelya
    But they did not copy it.

    I wrote somewhere copied?
    Quote: Emelya
    Who doubts that they studied.

    can this be called mining?
  • Yemelya
    Yemelya 14 May 2013 23: 02
    0
    Quote: Kars
    can this be called mining?

    Hardly. There is no continuity between the structures, they are just outwardly similar. Although, of course, some already tried-and-tested solutions may be used, but it is not necessary to say that we have put the already developed design.
  • Kars
    Kars 14 May 2013 23: 07
    +1
    Quote: Emelya
    Unlikely

    ))))
    Quote: Emelya
    just outwardly similar.

    Are they alike?
    Quote: Emelya
    but we don’t have to say that we have already put in place a well-developed construction.

    but for some reason the torsion bars from M-48/60 were not delivered.
  • Kars
    Kars 14 May 2013 23: 18
    +1
    _________________________
  • Yemelya
    Yemelya 14 May 2013 23: 32
    +1
    Quote: Kars
    Are they alike?

    the rollers are the same, which, as I said, can be a cause of error.

    Quote: Kars
    but for some reason the torsion bars from M-48/60 were not delivered.


    but it is not very similar to the centurion one, if only by the choice of an elastic element, so the springs were by no means only installed on the "Centurions".
  • Kars
    Kars 14 May 2013 23: 39
    +1
    Quote: Emelya
    the rollers are the same, which, as I said, can be a cause of error

    what misconception?
    And is the skating rink a suspension?
    Quote: Emelya
    but it is not very similar to the centurion one, if only by the choice of an elastic element, so the springs were by no means only installed on the "Centurions"

    So you can reach Christie.
  • Yemelya
    Yemelya 14 May 2013 23: 50
    0
    Quote: Kars
    what misconception?

    of this:
    Quote: Kars
    For Carrots, a good suspension worked out at the Centurions.



    Quote: Kars
    And is the skating rink a suspension?

    I meant the external similarity of the running.


    Quote: Kars
    So you can reach Christie.

    It is possible, but not necessary. Suffice it to admit that the Merkava suspension on the Centurions could not have been worked out.
  • Kars
    Kars 14 May 2013 23: 56
    +1
    Quote: Emelya
    Quote: Kars
    what misconception?
    of this:
    Quote: Kars
    For Carrots, a good suspension worked out at the Centurions.


    Is the suspension for Merkava worked out on the M60 or AMX-13)))
    Would you be clever could understand their similarity, even if in Merkava you decided to split the cart.
    Quote: Emelya
    I meant the external similarity of the running.

    Yes, they are all similar, round rollers
    Quote: Emelya
    Suffice it to admit that the Merkava suspension on the Centurions could not have been worked out.

    They are dear ones. The external placement of the suspension block, springs, centurion, Israel’s closest tank, is Tsinturion. But you can say that the suspension is from the T-34, I will not be surprised.
  • Yemelya
    Yemelya 15 May 2013 00: 21
    0
    Quote: Kars
    Is the suspension for Merkava worked out on the M60 or AMX-13)))

    And what, you must definitely find where it was worked? It seems to me that nowhere. I would like to understand what you mean by "worked out"
    Quote: Kars
    Would you be clever could understand their similarity

    I, apparently, are not smart enough, please explain.
    Quote: Kars
    even in Merkava they decided to split the cart.

    Yes there okromya skating rinks nothing more from the centurion cart and left.
    Quote: Kars
    External placement of the suspension unit, springs

    such signs can be found in a fairly wide range of BTT samples
    Quote: Kars
    But you can say that the suspension is from the T-34, I will not be surprised.

    It’s easier to say that it is original.
  • Kars
    Kars 15 May 2013 00: 39
    +1
    Quote: Emelya
    It seems to me that nowhere. I would like to understand what you mean by "worked out"

    Operational experience, for example, and yes, to the Jews, just like that despite any past models of tanks - we’ll make springs outside the hull. And they probably didn’t study the Chieftain who the British then refused to sell.
    Quote: Emelya
    I'm apparently not smart enough, please explain

    I'm tired of already teaching you. I would like to continue further on the topic of the best heavy tank of WWII

    Quote: Emelya
    Yes there okromya skating rinks nothing more from the centurion cart and left.

    principle is not enough for you?
    Quote: Emelya
    such signs can be found in a fairly wide range of BTT samples

    It is possible, but the closest in terms of parameters is Centurion.

    Quote: Emelya
    It’s easier to say that it is original.

    That's what, and the Merkava suspension is not original, with a stretch you can only call the shape of the tower as such.
  • Kars
    Kars 15 May 2013 00: 46
    +7
    ______ just a cool photo
  • malkor
    malkor 15 May 2013 22: 44
    0
    the same principle of operation is not a worked-out and run-in element, the Merkava suspension has many distinctive elements and it is a new part requiring new running tests of mining, etc. it is like a dynamic relic protection cannot be worked out on the basis of pin 5, although the principle of action is generally the same
  • Kars
    Kars 15 May 2013 22: 51
    +2
    Quote: malkor
    relic protection cannot be worked out on the basis of contact 5, although the principle of action is generally the same

    Is it more difficult to come up with a more primitive example?
    Quote: malkor
    Merkava pendant has many distinctive elements and it’s a new detail

    It would be torsion, or hydropneumatic another matter. And the fact that any part on the new tank is waiting for testing is not news - I can even say that even the finished unit will also be tested.
    And taking into account the experience of operating the Centurion, M-60, T-55, the Israelis chose the suspension most suitable for them - that is, from the Centurion, while they made the necessary changes - that is, they made an individual spring suspension to improve maintainability during mine explosions.
  • Argon
    Argon 14 May 2013 22: 55
    0
    Quite right, just in a hole, it was the requirements for increased mine resistance that forced them to return to the "spring" they also did not need 1000-1500 km runs during roundabout strikes of a deployed operation.
  • valerei
    valerei 15 May 2013 08: 11
    +2
    I read, read your "scientific" dispute about torsion bars and springs and about "outdated suspension" and I want to advise: before arguing, study the discipline: "Machine parts". Both torsion bars and springs have advantages and disadvantages. It all depends on what the engineers wanted in the end result. In short, the springs are more elastic than torsion bars, but the suspension itself is more complex and expensive. It is likely that the Jewish engineers did a good job of studying the terrain where their "chariots" would ride and decided that in stony deserts, springs are preferable to create a smoother ride.
  • Canep
    Canep 14 May 2013 11: 44
    11
    Metal and torsion bar and coil spring works on torsion, do not believe read the textbook sopromat. Only the torsion bar in the tank is much easier to compose, the torsion bar is a more modern version of the spring, they are used in the suspension of Formula 1.
    1. Professor
      Professor 14 May 2013 11: 59
      -3
      In my ZAZ 968M there were also torsion bars and bastards also broke. Here you have Formula 1. wink
      1. Canep
        Canep 14 May 2013 12: 40
        23
        Dear professor, a spring breaks less often only because it has a natural compression restriction, this is when adjacent turns abut each other. With proper manufacture and proper operation of the torsion bar has a huge advantage: it takes up much less space (volume). In Russian (and not only), springs were abandoned back in the 30s, as the dirt that clogged into the spring, and even frozen, completely blocks its operation, which leads to the destruction of suspension parts during movement. And let's close the topic of torsion bars, if Israeli industry cannot make high-quality torsion bars, then they are not needed on Merkava, because there is no dirt and frost in Israel.
        1. Professor
          Professor 14 May 2013 14: 38
          16 th
          Quote: Canep
          With proper manufacture and proper operation of the torsion bar has a huge advantage:

          Manufacturing I'm sure on the teshkah is correct, but regarding the operation it turns out "go here, but don't go here." This is exactly what the Israeli tankers complained about - the torsion bars broke in the rocky terrain. Nobody complained about the tundra and steppe.

          And let's close the topic of torsion bars, if Israeli industry cannot make high-quality torsion bars, then they are not needed on Merkava, because there is no dirt and frost in Israel.

          1. There is enough dirt.
          2. Merkava has nothing to do with it, since the torsion bars broke on tanks manufactured in the USSR designed by Soviet designers.
          1. saturn.mmm
            saturn.mmm 14 May 2013 15: 45
            +2
            But this photo after the water has dried up. But seriously, I would like someone to explain what it is.
            1. Professor
              Professor 14 May 2013 15: 59
              +6
              Once upon a time when Tsahal was in Gaza, Arab tunnels were being searched for with heavy equipment along the Philadelphia Corridor. So the tank landed in its pit.
              1. krokodil25
                krokodil25 14 May 2013 16: 55
                10
                And this is a professor for a snack laughing

                Padded “Merkava” MK.4 401th brt
              2. Kars
                Kars 14 May 2013 18: 32
                +4
                http://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/history/2nd-lebanon-war/acv-losses/

                almost all available photos from the 2nd Lebanese
              3. konstantins5s7e
                konstantins5s7e 15 May 2013 19: 04
                0
                just a small mine))
            2. saturn.mmm
              saturn.mmm 14 May 2013 17: 35
              +7
              Quote: Professor
              So the tank landed in its pit.

              Thank you, I would hardly have guessed, the photo of "Hamer" returned from a patrol in the Arabian territories, thrown with stones, the sight is still difficult to convey in words.
        2. screw cutter
          screw cutter 16 May 2013 17: 41
          +2
          Not only torsion bars break, springs also break. Oddly enough, torsion bars are more expensive to manufacture, but 1-easier to change (pulled out of the pipe, inserted a new one. And the spring needs to be compressed). And the torsion bar has a wonderful property the more the load the greater the resistance to torsion. And control: in the springs, not only the dirt freezes, the stones fly there too.
    2. Firstvanguard
      Firstvanguard 16 May 2013 20: 27
      +7
      Whatever the subject of the argument involving the Professor, he was everywhere, he saw everything. He knows how ships were built in the Soviet Union and was in almost every factory. He knows what components and where he bought the military-industrial complex for all types of equipment. He knows what the Jewish designer was guided by when creating the chariot suspension. By the way, a fair share of Israeli designers come from the USSR (refugees? Traitors?).
      Professor You are a MEGATROLL! hi
      PySy the spring suspension of the tank, the sons of the promised land, they communicated with the T-34 bully it's stupid scoops she was sacrificed to a wretched torsion wassat despite the fact that they themselves borrowed from Christie. In general, Koshkin, Morozov, Kotin, Grabin, Kalashnikov and Co. are mediocre plagiarists. Where are they up to the Jews creating brilliant samples, well, like galil or ahzarit.
      PySySy Tired of reading this verbiage. N E T N E U I Z V I M S X I AND D E A L N N X. No one.
      1. zaitsev
        zaitsev 17 May 2013 00: 16
        +4
        "Dumb scoops" created in the 60s the masterpiece T-64 with rollers with internal shock absorption, AZ, combined armor, and a progressive diesel engine (there is still nothing close in terms of performance characteristics). USSR - "trendsetter" in armored vehicles + our special requirements in the TTZ.
        And the "genius Jews" built a mobile bunker, which in the USSR would not be accepted by any military representative ...
        In short, these tanks cannot be compared.
        And do not you dare to drive designers.
        1. Nvalexandr
          Nvalexandr 21 May 2013 07: 21
          +2
          He did not drive. This is the irony of tact. wink
  • Argon
    Argon 14 May 2013 22: 24
    0
    But what was the torment? If possible in more detail.
  • leon-iv
    leon-iv 14 May 2013 09: 32
    +2
    And from the photo you can see that the Jews did not even think of torsion bars.

    for smoothness it is better to use springs.
    Yes, and in Israel there is no such thing that snooped through the mud and then -30 immediately with snow, that the springs are firmly raised and they will have to be scraped.
    1. gizz
      gizz 14 May 2013 15: 04
      +8
      I do not agree. According to our own experience, the machines with torsion suspension have the greatest ride smoothness, which is associated with the geometry of the wheel travel in tch. Achieving the same result using springs requires complex multi-link suspensions (higher cost, more difficult and more expensive repair + resource).
  • old man54
    old man54 14 May 2013 17: 01
    12
    Quote: Canep
    And from the photo you can see that the Jews did not even think of torsion bars. ...


    The Jews, like the Americans, but perfectly aware and mastered the method of propaganda of their production, no matter what lies, and categorically and brazenly trampling the products of their opponents and competitors into the mud! This is perhaps the main thing they have today in this part!
  • Avenger711
    Avenger711 14 May 2013 08: 33
    +5
    It is as if someone is interfering with making a mine that will pierce any monolithic armor.
    Weight does not characterize anything, the reserved volume of Western tanks has always been greater with corresponding consequences for protection.
  • Romn
    Romn 14 May 2013 08: 37
    11
    There are always disadvantages. But all the same, when all possible comparisons are made, firstly I am convinced that our technology is biased (and intentionally), and secondly, pathos is one thing and another practice. But in practice, ours showed itself like that, it works and is worthy of not small praises!
  • Canep
    Canep 14 May 2013 08: 52
    33
    No V-shaped bottom protects against a cumulative anti-bottom mine:



    They have armor penetration of 100 mm or more. And there are more chances to run into such a surprise than to explode on an anti-track mine. Once again I say that tanks should not be detonated by mines, sappers should work.
  • leon-iv
    leon-iv 14 May 2013 09: 27
    0
    Israeli V-shaped Merkava

    What are you trying to protect against?
    From a landmine, either there the tank flies away or the BC does not have anything.
    And now attention is the question of a modern anti-aircraft mine how does a tank hit?
  • RussianRu
    RussianRu 14 May 2013 09: 54
    19
    Oops So much for 70 tons.
    1. Mohomax
      Mohomax 16 May 2013 12: 25
      +2
      The Americans probably wrote that there were 50 mujahideen with grenades and 20 dug a hole wink
  • the47th
    the47th 14 May 2013 15: 19
    +6
    I wonder where the Americans divided these 70 tons, if the side armor of the hull is 20-35 mm? This makes its way out of the heavy machine gun at ranges up to 500 m.
    Quote: bask
    Israeli V-shaped Merkava

    Not so it is V-shaped.
  • RussianRu
    RussianRu 14 May 2013 15: 31
    +1
    The specific pressure on the ground probably also matters. So a heavy car is not an indicator of survivability.
  • papas-57
    papas-57 15 May 2013 22: 32
    +4
    Well, they will put 2 kg more explosives in a land mine, and no V-shaped bottom will help.
  • pinachet
    pinachet 16 May 2013 12: 39
    +3
    the broken carrot and the bottom didn’t help.
    we have a tank (72, 90) for a war with a real adversary, and they, Arabs, drive through the desert.
    there is also a lot of material about the detonation of BC in abrams.
  • zaitsev
    zaitsev 16 May 2013 23: 32
    +2
    First: m1 - 55 tons, m1a2 - 62 tons.
    Secondly: The "Merkava" has a mechanic drive next to the front left roller. In our tanks, it is in the center.
    Thirdly: the ammunition station in the T-64/72/80/90 (the part in the "carousel") is located in the safest place (while the niche of the "Abrams" tower is the most striking place - and for shooting them the loader keeps the armor-curtain open, i.e. knockout panels will not save (it also applies to Leopard 2.) Our main thing for an assault is not to take shells and charges into the front ammo rack and the fighting compartment (only in AZ / MZ), because fenders smart enough not to refuel before the fight ...
  • phantom359
    phantom359 17 May 2013 01: 12
    +3
    Quote: bask
    No need to engage in cap-making. The M1 tank, Abrams, weighs 70 tons, and the T-72B-44 tons.
    While the BC in our tanks will not be protected, the bottom without mine protection.
    There will always be a threat of VK detonation.
    Israeli V-shaped Merkava

    T72, in a modern configuration and with a trained crew, perfectly copes with both abram and merkava. But gentlemen, Jews and Americans, in fact, are engaged in hat-making - they crushed Iraq completely weakened by sanctions and brought to the pen, and then they yell that they have the most abrash. It’s the same with the Jews - they are fighting with the partisans, those from the anti-tank missile are knocked out merkavs. You can compare only in open battle tete-tete, the English-speaking will never do that.
  • g1kk
    g1kk 18 May 2013 18: 05
    0
    Tell about these super-protected abrams to these tankmen:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q_dnTVFIL0
  • Bezarius
    Bezarius 19 May 2013 00: 07
    +1
    The whole is by no means a plus, but a minus. Abrams in our climatic conditions is generally yuzles shit. Because of too much weight, he has disgusting cross-country ability.
  • Nayhas
    Nayhas 14 May 2013 08: 08
    15 th
    Quote: Canep
    especially those who got radiation sickness

    ??? what nonsense are you writing? Well, you do not like Abrams, he has flaws, but why attribute any heresy?
    PS: Abrams is regularly modified to provide all-round protection.
    1. Containers
      Containers 14 May 2013 10: 56
      12
      Depleted uranium BOPSs and armor with sheets containing the same uranium. Under certain conditions, there is a chance to grab a dose.
    2. leon-iv
      leon-iv 14 May 2013 11: 29
      10
      all-round protection

      and that he will get better from it?
      Raising the mass worsen the life of the chassis and engine. What is suitable for Asia is not suitable for Europe.
    3. Sirozha
      Sirozha 14 May 2013 12: 24
      30 th
      Nayhas, it's time to get used to it, on this site only Russian weapons and Russian engineers are great, everything else is shit! So in no case do not praise someone else's. Know, but do not try to prove to someone - it is useless!
      1. tomket
        tomket 14 May 2013 12: 44
        +7
        Well, if this is true? Please explain the need for a tank weight under 70 tons? and the unexpected insight that dawned on American engineers, which led them to reduce weight in tanks, in fact it was the school of Soviet tank building that gives at least some chance in the future to remain a tank as a type of military equipment.
        1. Irtysh
          Irtysh 14 May 2013 21: 14
          +6
          And how do you order bridges to destroy? And so I drove and there is no bridge, a bowl even if it is a drawbridge. :-)
        2. mazdie
          mazdie 15 May 2013 00: 31
          +1
          IS and HF are our EVERYTHING! It is necessary for the Israelis to prompt!
      2. ed65b
        ed65b 14 May 2013 14: 30
        11
        Wrong, we are for justice. And on the other hand, why should all of ours be shit, and all the gold of others?
      3. Andrey57
        Andrey57 14 May 2013 14: 54
        24
        Actually, this site recently quoted a mattress tanker who fought in Iraq, so he compared Abrams with the T-72, it definitely doesn’t make sense to praise our tank, so he said that dynamic protection, rangefinder and automatic loader are undeniable advantages of T-72, at the same time told that their rangefinder does not work further than 4000m and that it cannot be used more often than 8 once a minute - it will burn out, while informing that our rangefinders and 5000m work like clockwork and there are no restrictions on the number of measurements have, among other things, described in detail the action Ia charging in Abrams and told how to be a monkey, not to become a cripple, if all this was done on the go hi
        1. kot11180
          kot11180 14 May 2013 15: 02
          +4
          read this article, he also spoke well about our dynamic defense
        2. Alexey K.
          Alexey K. 15 May 2013 03: 10
          +1
          What is the title of the article? Or discard the link please.
          1. kot11180
            kot11180 15 May 2013 07: 56
            0
            I don’t remember the name, but I thought about it in the weapons section three months ago
      4. Uhe
        Uhe 19 May 2013 21: 36
        0
        Not only Russian, but also Soviet. All current tanks are of Soviet design, and our brothers Slavs from Ukraine took an active part in their creation. Don't you really want to be proud of the fruit of the joint work of the Slavs - Little Russians and Great Russians?
    4. family tree
      family tree 14 May 2013 15: 55
      +9
      Depleted uranium is considered toxic and radioactive material. In addition to radioactivity, U-238 is a heavy metal toxic to mammals, according to laboratory tests. In December 2008, 141 states supported the UN General Assembly resolution on conducting an additional study of the effect of depleted uranium ammunition by the end of 2010. At the same time, France, Great Britain, Israel, and the United States voted against the resolution, while 34 states abstained. After the war in Iraq in 1991, several thousands of US and British soldiers were found to have various diseases associated with impaired liver and kidney function, and low blood pressure. Retired U.S. Army Colonel Professor of Environmental Sciences at Jacksonville University Douglas Rocke discovered that uranium can cause lymphoma, mental disorders, and cause congenital malformations in future generations. As the corresponding member of the Russian Academy of Sciences Aleksey Yablokov noted, in the Iraqi contaminated uranium territories near the city of Basra, the frequency of preterm births, birth defects of newborns, leukemia and other types of cancer diseases increased 3-4 times. According to Yablokov, congenital disorders (lack of eyes, ears, fusion of fingers and blood vessels, etc.) were found in more than 60% of children born to families of American soldiers who fought during the conflict. The US government rejected all claims by sick military personnel, explaining that the effect of depleted uranium on the development of diseases has not been proven.
    5. saturn.mmm
      saturn.mmm 14 May 2013 17: 42
      +3
      Quote: Nayhas
      PS: Abrams is regularly modified to provide all-round protection.

      It is not clear why the cons were stuck. Who put the minuses probably measured the radiation level in the "Abrams" or do not care, the main thing is if something is wrong then a minus.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • self-propelled
    self-propelled 14 May 2013 09: 11
    16
    Quote: Canep
    Let the Americans think that their tanks are the best, although I do not think that American tankers think so, especially those who got radiation sickness.


    According to the rating of tanks of the world, prepared by the American agency Forecast International - and that's it.
    1. Mohomax
      Mohomax 16 May 2013 12: 28
      +1
      Everything in order to sell better tanks
  • Maks111
    Maks111 14 May 2013 15: 06
    +9
    According to the rating of tanks of the world, prepared by the American agency Forecast International
    You can not read further.
    But seriously, I read an article where an American gunner (according to him one of the best gunners at his base) reasoned quite competently and professionally, in a simulated battle, between one of the modifications of the T-80 and ANY NATO tank put on our eighties.
  • T-100
    T-100 14 May 2013 15: 35
    +8
    According to the rating of tanks of the world, prepared by the American agency Forecast International, the best tank is currently the American M1A2 SEP Abrams of General Dynamics Corporation

    This is a surprise, really guys ??? I almost grabbed my mouse infarction. laughing
  • 4fedor1
    4fedor1 14 May 2013 17: 22
    +1
    it would be better if we have not one and they have 4 drawers
  • Radoslav
    Radoslav 14 May 2013 18: 12
    +3
    It is not necessary for zinc to fly on our part, it is necessary to think through military operations and carry out them in such a way as to minimize losses, even three hundredths.
    1. mazdie
      mazdie 15 May 2013 00: 36
      +1
      This can not be taken away from Amers and Israelis, human life is worth more than 100 tanks, and this must be learned! There are so few of us Russians (at home). Absolutely different tanks, for different tasks, and it makes no sense to compare them!
      1. Firstvanguard
        Firstvanguard 16 May 2013 20: 37
        0
        Tell it to Vietnamese, Iraqis, Serbs, Libyans, Panamanians .. the list is very long whose lives 3,14 dos have very much appreciated. Training a tanker costs money, nothing personal, just an economy.
  • recrut6666
    recrut6666 14 May 2013 18: 21
    -5
    looking at the chronicle of the fighting in Syria, I can’t believe that the T-72, I’m not talking about older tank models, such an invulnerable tank, one cheburek with RPG-7, not to mention a vampire, with a successful hit it turns the T-72 into fire torch!
    but it can compare not the maintainability of tanks, but the number of surviving tankers, which is on the abrams, on the t-72, and let's equate the t-90 to the t-72, the military leaders themselves recognize this! and there are very few of them!
    who has such statistics?
    1. JIaIIoTb
      JIaIIoTb 15 May 2013 13: 08
      +2
      They showed us something like a training film about the use of tanks in urban conditions (the chronicle of the capture of Grozny was used), struck the survivability of our T-72s, it was clearly visible on the frames that the tank remained operational after 7-8 hits from RPG-7. And if ours did everything according to science (infantry escort is mandatory), then we would hardly have lost tanks.
    2. zaitsev
      zaitsev 17 May 2013 00: 30
      +1
      upon successful hit, everything turns into a torch.
      Amers have a good kit designed for urban battles (circular dynamic protection) - hung in the city, removed on the operational space.
      It can be seen in Iraq that not everything was so good with survival ...
      And in Afghanistan they don’t have any tanks at all - delivery by air one at a time is very expensive, and through Pakistan it’s haemorrhoid (probably the highways in the mountains are bad).
  • Andrey Yuryevich
    Andrey Yuryevich 16 May 2013 19: 09
    +3
    this picture will be nicer .... "abrams" burns great .... yes
  • t7310
    t7310 April 19 2017 15: 22
    0
    about 3 zinc and not four, as far as I know, not a single case was recorded so that the entire crew would die in the abrams, always someone would survive, but the automatic loader is definitely better
  • svp67
    svp67 14 May 2013 07: 42
    13
    What is noteworthy and quite natural, in the rating there was no place for Russian T-72 and T-90С tanks
    Well, who will ADVERTISE their competitors ...
    1. djon3volta
      djon3volta 14 May 2013 12: 50
      32
      CONFESSION OF THE LIEUTENANT OF THE MARITIME DECK

      “I would never want the Russians to seriously fight with us. It may not be patriotic, but I feel that they will definitely kick our ass, ”the US Marine thoughtfully said, recalling the events of one of the African wars in which he participated more than 40 years ago.

      US Marine Corps Captain Michael Foghetti (now retired) will never forget the Russian tanker who saved his life twice ...

      ... We completed the task and now in a convoy of five jeeps bristling with M-16 and M-60 trunks, we hurried to the port, to the evacuation boat. Suddenly, a white woman ran out of a narrow alley with a girl in her arms, followed by three local Africans with laughter. We were not up to political correctness. A woman with a child was immediately dragged into a jeep, and her pursuers were unambiguously threatened with a machine gun barrel. But one of the bastards raised his G-3 and was clearly prepared to shoot at us. The Marine Kolone automatically pulled the machine gun trigger. Then we raced under increasing shooting ... From the hill on which the city is located, we saw a port - a steamer was burning at the pier, on which refugees were supposed to be evacuated: more than a thousand European civilian specialists and their families. We did not have the right to leave them alone to tear apart a crowd of insurgents. I calculated the available forces: 29 marines, including myself, 7 demobilized French legionnaires and 11 sailors from a sunken ship, two dozen volunteers from the civilian contingent - against a 3-strong army of insurgents. And we took up the defense, hoping that they would not think of attacking us both from the south, and from the west, and from the north ... After the first attack - the first losses ... Next is the next attack. Suddenly a call came from my Smithie:

      - Sir. I have some strange challenge. They said that sunny Siberia is calling us, and Siberia, it seems to be in Russia ...
      “Can I find out what the United States Marine Corps is doing in the territory entrusted to me?” - I heard English in my headphone with a slight, but clearly Russian accent.

      I introduced myself and asked with whom I have the honor to talk.
      “You have the honor of communicating, Lieutenant, with someone who, the only one in this part of Africa, has tanks that can radically change the situation.” And my name is Tankist.

      I had nothing to lose. I outlined the whole situation.
      “Mark the enemy’s positions with red missiles and wait,” continued the Tankist. - When tanks appear in your zone of visibility, this will be us. But I warn you: if at least one shot is fired at my tanks, everything that local peyzans want to do with you will seem to you a nirvana compared to what I will do with you.

      ... And then it struck. In the gaps between the houses, on all streets at the same time appeared the silhouettes of T-54 tanks, encircled by a landing party. Fighting vehicles rushed like chariots of fire. More recently, it seemed formidable, the army of the besiegers scattered like smoke. The paratroopers jumped from the armor, and, scattering around the tanks, began to clean nearby houses. A queue suddenly struck from the roof of one of the houses. Three tanks immediately turned the towers towards the last refuge of the crazy jihad hero, and the bullet volley, which immediately turned into a burst of explosion, deprived the city of one of the architectural excesses ...

      I caught myself thinking that I would not want to be the target of a Russian tank attack. And if even the whole battalion with support units were with me, for these fast-moving armored monsters with red stars, we would not be a serious obstacle. And it’s not at all the firepower of Russian combat vehicles ... I saw with binoculars the faces of Russian tankers on the towers of my tanks: in these faces there was absolute confidence in the victory over any enemy. And this is stronger than any caliber ...
      1. djon3volta
        djon3volta 14 May 2013 12: 52
        32
        The Russian commander, my peer too tall for a tankman, a tanned and bearded captain, presented himself as an illegible Russian name for my poor hearing, shook my hand and invited me to his tank with a gesture. We are comfortably located on the tower. Suddenly, a Russian officer sharply pushed me to the side and jumped up, tearing a machine gun from his shoulder. Something struck with a rustling whistle, again and again. The Russian jerked, a trickle of blood crawled across his forehead, but he picked up the machine gun and gave off somewhere two short bursts, picked up by a burst of a turret machine gun from a neighboring tank ... I realized that they had just saved my life.

        A black-haired girl (a Cuban woman, as well as a part of the tank and paratroopers) in camouflage bandaged her savior's head, saying in Spanish that forever the captain was climbing under the bullets. In an unexpected outburst of my soul, I pulled out a duplicate copy of my Purple Heart (Purple Heart) from my inner pocket, which I never parted with as a talisman of luck, and handed it to the Russian tanker. In some confusion, he accepted an unexpected gift, then shouted something in Russian into the open hatch of his tank.
        A minute later, a hand came out from there holding a huge plastic holster with a huge gun. The Russian officer smiled and handed it to me ...

        Three Russian tanks drove into the port. I was also on the front armor. Refugees poured out of the warehouses, women cried and laughed, children jumped and squealed, men in uniform and without screaming and whistling. The Russian captain leaned towards me and, shouting down the noise, said: “Like that, Marine. Who has never entered a liberated city on a tank, he has not experienced a real celebration of the soul! This is not for you to land from the sea. " And slapped me on the shoulder.

        They embraced the tankmen and paratroopers, handed them some presents and bottles, and a girl of about six came up to the Russian captain and, shyly smiling, handed him a chocolate bar from humanitarian aid. The Russian tankman picked it up and carefully lifted it. She put her arm around his neck. And then a feeling of deja vu visited me. I remembered how, a few years ago, on a tour of West and East Berlin, we were shown a Russian monument in Treptower Park. Our guide, an elderly German woman, pointed to the huge figure of a Russian soldier with a rescued child in her arms, and clearly hinted that, apart from evil and violence, the Russians brought nothing to the land of Germany.
        It’s like a veil has fallen from my eyes. In front of me stood a Russian officer with a rescued child in her arms. And that was the reality! And that means that that German in Berlin lied, and that Russian soldier from the pedestal in that reality also saved the child ...

        PS "Tankist", aka "bearded captain" - Major Eremenko Nikolay Ignatievich, commander of a separate battalion of 104 TB dowry of the UN mission.
        1. old man54
          old man54 14 May 2013 20: 19
          19
          I'd like to add something, about the spirit of a Russian soldier, especially a tanker! :)
          When in 1960, during the well-known "West" Berlin crisis, our T-55 and American tanks (M-48 presumably) stood opposite each other on the streets of Berlin, the crews of American tanks could not withstand the psychological pressure from the expectation of a possible tank slaughter. nearby cafes and shops in the toilet, because it was terrifying for them to look at the Soviet tanks standing opposite at a distance of 200/400 meters with direct fire guns aimed at them. And only much later, when a good part of these servicemen were treated for a long time and tediously by psychotherapists due to their participation in these events, it became known that what scared the American wars most of all was not the presence of a potential enemy tank in front of them, but the fact that during all this time of confrontation none of our T-55s never opened the hatch and no one ran anywhere !! Not once during the entire crisis !!!!! Only silence, silence and cold determination breathed over the Soviet tank group! And now the realization that such people are sitting in the tanks, that they don’t care about all this, unlike them, the amers, that their nerves are probably made of tank steel and forced NATO tankers to run through the toilets and nearby gateways to change their underwear, which by that time they already had it full, full! :))
          1. Alexey K.
            Alexey K. 15 May 2013 03: 18
            0
            Smiled)))
        2. Alexey K.
          Alexey K. 15 May 2013 03: 13
          +4
          HAPPY VICTORY !!!
      2. family tree
        family tree 15 May 2013 00: 38
        +1
        Quote: djon3volta
        CONFESSION OF THE LIEUTENANT OF THE MARITIME DECK

        Author Chekmarev Vadim Albertovich. Story from the book "Tales in camouflage". According to the author
        Original, this is a personal letter. The author of which agreed to the creative processing of the story. His opinion about our tank crews and about Russia is completely and unchanged.
        http://artofwar.ru/c/chekmarew_w_a/
      3. screw cutter
        screw cutter 16 May 2013 18: 15
        0
        And this is stronger than any caliber.
        The Russian commander, my peer too tall for a tankman, a tanned and bearded captain, presented himself as an illegible Russian name for my poor hearing, shook my hand and pointed to his tank in an inviting way. We comfortably settled on the tower, when suddenly a Russian officer sharply pushed me to the side. He jumped up, tearing a machine gun off his shoulder, something struck with a rustling whistle, one more time and again. The Russian jerked, a trickle of blood crawled across his forehead, but he picked up the machine gun and gave off somewhere two short bursts, picked up by the clearly-stingy burst of a turret machine gun, from a neighboring tank. Then he smiled at me, and pointed to the customs balcony overlooking the square in front of the port wall. There the body of a man in a dirty burnus was guessed, and the barrel of an automatic rifle glittered. I realized that they had just saved my life. A black-haired girl (a Cuban woman, as well as a part of tankers and paratroopers) in camouflage overalls meanwhile tied my head to my savior, saying in Spanish that forever the signor captain was climbing under the bullets, and in an unexpected outburst of soul I pulled out a copy of my Purple from my inner pocket Heart (12), which he never parted with, as with the talisman of luck, and handed it to the Russian tanker. In some confusion, he accepted an unexpected gift, then shouted something in Russian into the open hatch of his tank. A minute later, a hand came out from there, holding a huge plastic holster with a huge gun. The Russian officer smiled and handed it to me.
        They embraced the tankmen and paratroopers, handed them some presents and bottles, and a girl of about six came up to the Russian captain and, shyly smiling, handed him a chocolate bar from humanitarian aid. A Russian tanker grabbed her and carefully lifted her, she put her arm around his neck and a deja vu sensation suddenly came to me. I recalled how a Russian monument was shown to us in Treptower Park on a tour of West and East Berlin a few years ago. Our guide, an elderly German woman with an irritated face, pointed to the huge figure of a Russian soldier with a rescued child in her arms, and sang contemptuous phrases in poor English. She said that, supposedly, this was a big communist lie, and that apart from evil and violence, the Russians brought nothing to the land of Germany. As if the veil had fallen from my eyes. In front of me stood a Russian officer with a rescued child in her arms. And this was a reality and, therefore, that German in Berlin lied, and that Russian soldier from the pedestal, in that reality, also saved the child. So, maybe our propaganda is also lying that the Russians are sleeping and see how to destroy America. No, for a simple first marine lieutenant, such high matters are too complex. I waved my hand at all this and clinked glasses with a Russian bottle of whiskey, which is not known to be in my hand.
        On the same day, we managed to get in touch with a French steamer going here under the auspices of the UN, and arrived at two in the morning. Before dawn, the loading was going on, the steamer set off from the inhospitable coast, when the sun was already high enough. And until the inhospitable coast disappeared into the haze, the little girl waved a handkerchief to the Russian tankmen who remained on the coast. And Master Sergeant Smithy, who was our noted philosopher, said thoughtfully: "I would never want the Russians to seriously fight with us. Let it be unpatriotic, but I feel that they will kick our ass." And, thinking, he added: "Well, and they drink as cool as we never dreamed of ... Sucking a bottle of whiskey from the neck and in no eye ... And after all, no one will believe us, they will say that even Davy Crockett (13) will not come up with such a thing ”.

        Colonel David Stern Crockett, better known as Davy Crockett, is a famous American adventurer, folk hero, traveler, US Army officer and politician nicknamed “King of the Frontier.” Killed defending the Alamo Fortress during the Texas War of Independence.
  • Professor
    Professor 14 May 2013 08: 06
    18 th
    The article was written before the famous events in Syria, which put a lot in their places.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 14 May 2013 08: 12
      10
      And what exactly did they "put in their places"?
      1. Professor
        Professor 14 May 2013 08: 23
        -7
        The legend of "high survivability".
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 14 May 2013 08: 26
          +3
          And what did you draw such a conclusion from?
          1. Professor
            Professor 14 May 2013 08: 31
            -7
            From my personal collection of photographs (I stopped replenishing it for almost a year, there is not enough disk space) of tanks with a turret, to put it mildly, out of place. Particularly striking is the "fire extinguishing system" ...
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 14 May 2013 08: 41
              +8
              Quote: Professor
              Particularly striking is the "fire extinguishing system" ...

              I heard that any system starts to work only after you turn it on. Moreover, it is desirable that no vigilant commander set off freon from cylinders for the safety of personnel

              Well, about the collection - do you collect burning "Merkavas"?
              1. Kars
                Kars 14 May 2013 08: 48
                18
                Quote: Spade
                Well, about the collection - do you collect burning "Merkavas"?

                Military censorship of AOI takes care of such gifts. There is not even a photo of the declared destroyed 5 tanks in the Lebanon war. There are two out of five cars.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 14 May 2013 08: 54
                  10
                  Clear business. Too bad military censorship cannot really improve the protection of tanks.
              2. Timeout
                Timeout 14 May 2013 08: 48
                +7
                Moreover, it is desirable that no vigilant commander set off freon from cylinders for the safety of personnel

                The correct answer, but Freon was not pitted, but was sold to home appliance repair services. In my memory, there was a case when from the short circuit the wiring of the stabilization system drive caught fire, and if it weren’t for the gunner, the whole crew would burn out. For a long time they were looking for the culprit, the platoon commander turned out to be. Freon filed in Rembytservis.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 14 May 2013 09: 02
                  14
                  Ours did not think of such a thing. Before entering, Shevchenko, the current head of the GABTU, climbed into one of the tanks and tried to start the system manually. And then he tore everything that moves, if it had at least one large asterisk on his shoulder straps.
                  Three days to deal with this.
                  1. Timeout
                    Timeout 14 May 2013 09: 49
                    +4
                    Yes, the troops still have enough goblins ... I know at least 3 cases in the Armed Forces when the crews were burning in tanks in peacetime and the TSA was intentionally disabled. And not fighters, but officers ...
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 14 May 2013 09: 57
                      0
                      In Kolomenskoye Artillery, a cadet died because of her. Self-propelled gun in the educational building stood. I decided to check whether it was working, and started it manually. I got scared and could not get out.

                      So they are afraid. And deliberately disable.
                      1. Timeout
                        Timeout 14 May 2013 10: 24
                        +3
                        It’s sad. The nameplate hangs so that you only press in case of fire and you still need to hold your breath until the HLF automatically turns on and the system activation buttons 2! for different departments. A properly trained crew knows how to act in the event of a fire in a car, and also knows that the mechanic is the first to suffocate, both from smoke and from freon. And they burn more often than they choke ...
              3. Denis_SF
                Denis_SF 14 May 2013 08: 49
                +8
                From a personal collection of photographs (for almost a year now he has stopped replenishing, there is not enough disk space)

                Professor, you would have changed yourself hard, I’ll tell you a terrible secret, now there are already more than 1GB disks.

                Well, about the collection - do you collect burning "Merkavas"?

                Yes, and last minute Abrams can be typed if desired, and how many of them were not photographed, it’s scary to imagine ..
              4. Professor
                Professor 14 May 2013 08: 50
                -9
                An interesting theory. It turns out that the commanders of the Syrian tanks are more afraid of the abnormal operation of the fire extinguishing system than to burn in the tank? It's like less scalded than frostbitten.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 14 May 2013 09: 11
                  +8
                  In peacetime, yes. Well, then, when the fried cock bites in the ass, giving birth to full cylinders is already very difficult. Especially in Syria.
              5. Professor
                Professor 14 May 2013 08: 59
                -9
                Quote: Spade
                Well, about the collection - do you collect burning "Merkavas"?

                I also collect, but this is a big rarity. Share it?
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 14 May 2013 09: 12
                  11
                  I do not collect this.
                  "Rarity" thanks to the excellent work of the Israeli military censorship? I approve. Unfortunately, hiding information does not improve protection.
                  1. Professor
                    Professor 14 May 2013 09: 33
                    -7
                    We have been hearing these tales for 30 years; in 1982, the Israeli censorship allegedly concealed the loss of 30 of its aircraft. Until now, no one can find them. now there is a new bike about concealing tank losses in 2006. One "specialist" here even claimed that the dead tankers were assigned to the infantry after their death in order to hide the losses of tanks. I can imagine how their parents on Memorial Day come to Latrun to the monument to those killed in the armored forces, and they say the names of your children are not carved in granite - they are now infantrymen ...
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 14 May 2013 09: 48
                      12
                      Let’s do this: Give photographs of at least half of those tanks whose defeat was officially recognized by yours during the second Lebanese
                    2. leon-iv
                      leon-iv 14 May 2013 11: 33
                      +8
                      All is well, there is no loss, but we take the same asashai officially, there are no losses, but insurance payments are coming. Right now the truth is, the chop is mainly in the hell, Schaub crawls people not to poo. And again, how to count losses. Look at the amers Chinook plopped down on the airfield as a sieve for cheating, but no, it’s not listed in the losses but as damaged. So what is the magic of numbers. Similarly, the Germans considered losses especially in tanks.
                      1. Professor
                        Professor 14 May 2013 11: 43
                        -6
                        What is the magic of numbers? Where did the corpses of soldiers go? Tanks that cannot be restored to the battalion commander on the balance of why, he needs to fight on something.
                      2. leon-iv
                        leon-iv 14 May 2013 11: 55
                        +7
                        Where did the corpses of soldiers go?

                        and what is every loss of a tank the loss of the entire crew?
                        This is what I believe in caring for crews. We are here talking about how to count.
                        Tanks that cannot be restored to the battalion commander on the balance of why, he needs to fight on something.

                        And to him this is why he is either being repaired on the spot or transferred to the repairmen. Do you have acts on hand? And the reports of the same battalion commanders.
                      3. neri73-r
                        neri73-r 14 May 2013 17: 35
                        +6
                        What is the magic of numbers? Where did the corpses of soldiers go?


                        Professor, well, you know that in the Western world (unfortunately, we often too now) grandmothers (not old women, but money) decide everything, with corpses, and with their relatives, and with independent media, and with photographs and with scrap metal merkav ........... !!!! So, magic is the magic of numbers ............. shekels, dollars and euros!
                      4. Professor
                        Professor 14 May 2013 17: 48
                        0
                        Quote: neri73-r
                        You know that in the Western world (unfortunately, we often now too) grandmothers (not old women, but money) decide everything

                        You argue in slogans. I'm talking about the whole "west", but in Israel, no money can hide the corpse of even one soldier. There will always be some kind of Anat Kam and the secret is no longer a secret.
                      5. aksakal
                        aksakal 15 May 2013 00: 30
                        +4
                        Quote: leon-iv
                        All is well no loss

                        Quote: neri73-r
                        Professor, well, you know that in the Western world (unfortunately, we often too now) grandmothers (not old women, but money) decide everything, with corpses, and with their relatives, and with independent media

                        - The professor in his role - stupidly lying and stubbornly stands his ground laughing Losses from Israel are simply rampant. Well, let him at least read here - an unbiased author, just an analyst, he doesn't give a damn about this "Hezbollah" - Colonel V. Klyuchnikov, candidate of military sciences; Colonel O. Yanov
                        Journal "Foreign Military Review" № 12/2006 "Analysis of some military aspects of the Lebanese-Israeli conflict in the summer of 2006" - burned and their carrots for a sweet soul, and the loss was to hell laughing
                        I don’t know, I don’t know what the Jews hope for in the war against Syria, if they have essentially failed to cope with partisans like Hezbollah. So the Syrian Armed Forces are regular troops that have been fighting for two years. In addition, if necessary, the Syrians can use the tactics of Hezbollah - the Syrian rabble is at war in such a way, with whom you will lead - from that you will gain, or they can fight traditionally laughing Well, if the Syrians throw good weapons laughing It’s not clear that Israel will win anyway, but with its population of 6 lims it will be Pyrrhic laughing So, dear Israelis, lie to yourself about your invulnerability (a kind of auto-training) and go on to Syria! But chur, only after the delivery of Russian weapons, at least according to previously concluded contracts laughing
                2. saturn.mmm
                  saturn.mmm 14 May 2013 12: 43
                  +4
                  Quote: Professor
                  We have been hearing these tales for 30 years, in 1982, allegedly Israeli censorship concealed the loss of 30 of its aircraft.

                  On June 10, 1982, R. Reagan's personal envoy F.Habib arrived in Damascus, followed by the US Secretary of State Schultz.
                  What did they frequent in Syria if Israel had such dominance in the air?
                  1. Professor
                    Professor 14 May 2013 14: 39
                    -7
                    Quote: saturn.mmm
                    What did they frequent in Syria if Israel had such dominance in the air?

                    Hummus decided to try.
                3. saturn.mmm
                  saturn.mmm 14 May 2013 16: 15
                  +4
                  Quote: Professor
                  I imagine how their parents come to Latrun on the memorial day to the monument to those killed in the armored forces, and they are told they say the names of your children in granite are not carved - they are now infantry ...

                  I don’t understand something, you want to say that in the 2nd Lebanese loss in armored forces was not in Israel?
                  1. Professor
                    Professor 14 May 2013 17: 49
                    -2
                    Quote: saturn.mmm
                    I don’t understand something, you want to say that in the 2nd Lebanese loss in armored forces was not in Israel?

                    There were losses and they are all known by name. Until the last soldier.
                  2. saturn.mmm
                    saturn.mmm 14 May 2013 21: 53
                    +1
                    Quote: Professor
                    There were losses and they are all known by name. Until the last soldier.

                    The Israelis themselves cause losses by date and place of battle. But I did not meet surname. The memory of every dead soldier must remain.
                  3. Professor
                    Professor 14 May 2013 22: 01
                    -1
                    In Hebrew there is a list of all those who died in the Israeli wars since 1860.
                    http://www.izkor.gov.il/Default.aspx
                    In 2013, Israel commemorates 23 IDF troops, police, border guards, general security, foreign intelligence, prison management, fire brigades and activists from Jewish underground organizations on the territory of Mandatory Palestine.
                    Over the past year, 92 names have been added to the mournful list. Among them, 37 IDF soldiers, 12 security officers (including the police) and 43 veterans.
                  4. screw cutter
                    screw cutter 16 May 2013 18: 29
                    +2
                    Gentlemen, what is the argument? Everyone knows who owns the media, including the Russian ones.
    2. mazdie
      mazdie 15 May 2013 00: 47
      0
      not freon, but chlodon. A burning freon is phosgene, a gas that the Nazis strangled, including Jews in gas chambers
      1. Timeout
        Timeout 15 May 2013 14: 22
        +1
        Dear, here is an excerpt from a chemistry textbook laughing

        REFRIGERANTS

        REFRIGERANTS (freons), saturated fluorocarbons or polyfluorocarbons (often also contain C1 atoms, less often Br).
        Freon trade names consist of a company name (in Russia - freon, in the USA - freon, according to the international standard - the letter R) and a digital designation, in Krom the first digit is the number of C atoms minus one (for the methane series compound this figure is omitted ), the second is the number of H atoms plus one, the third is the number of F atoms (if the number of F atoms is greater than 9, then a hyphen is placed and then a digit indicating the number of F atoms in the molecule), e.g. difluorochloromethane CHF2C1 nas. Freon 22, decafluorobutane C4Fig - Freon 31-10. For freons containing Br atoms, the letter B and a number showing the number of Br atoms, e.g. difluorochlorobromomethane CF2ClBr nas. Freon 12B1. For a loop. hladon before the digital designation is the letter C, for example. perfluorocyclobutane naz. Freon C318. In the presence of isomers, the digital designation corresponds to naib. symmetrical connection. (the smallest mass difference between the left and right parts of the molecule), and in subsequent, more and more asymmetric, letters a, b, c, etc. are added, for example. 1,1,1-trifluoroethane Freon 143a. In the presence of a double bond in a freon molecule, one is used as the fourth digit.
        Freons - gaseous or liquid v-va (tab.), Solution. in org. r-antibodies, poorly or practically not sol. in water; certain freons form crystalline hydrates.
        Freons are relatively inert, their chem. transformations require high tr. Pyrolysis of a number of chladones at 600–1150 ° C leads to fluoroolefins, fluoroparaffins, halogens, or hydrogen halides (if the chladone contains H atoms).
  • svp67
    svp67 14 May 2013 08: 45
    24
    Quote: Professor
    From a personal collection of photographs (for almost a year now, it has ceased to replenish, there is not enough disk space) tanks with a tower are, to put it mildly, out of place.



    Particularly striking is the "fire extinguishing system" ...

    Yes you are right...


    1. Canep
      Canep 14 May 2013 09: 01
      +9
      Wow, this is the vaunted Merkava.
      1. Kars
        Kars 14 May 2013 10: 35
        13
        ______________
        a land mine will stop anyone
    2. Professor
      Professor 14 May 2013 09: 02
      -5
      I say the same rarity. Collectors instantly pulled away.
      In the first photo, the tank is a land mine, and in the second, Merkava-1 of 1982. Even the side screens were not set then.
      1. Canep
        Canep 14 May 2013 09: 06
        +7
        Or maybe their (side screens) tankers ripped off in street battles?
        1. Professor
          Professor 14 May 2013 09: 19
          -1
          Side screens in those ancient times were not always there.
          1. Canep
            Canep 14 May 2013 09: 38
            17
            In any case, on the T-72 (and this is a tank of the 70s) on-board screens were always hung, and on the T-72B also dynamic protection. And comparing the T-72 with Merkava-4 is not very correct, these are tanks from different eras, and imprisoned for different tasks.
          2. commentor
            commentor 14 May 2013 12: 14
            12
            That is, in Syria, myths about the survivability of outdated Soviet tanks were debunked, and when it comes to the Merkavs, the story of "ancient times" begins.

            You have not mentioned tonnage yet. Bring the tank to 80 tons with screens and talk about impenetrability.

            Merkava would be a good tank, if with its characteristics it fit in 55 tons, and this is an extensive path accessible to everyone.
            Without this, Merkava is simply a good tank for your region, and more specifically for Israel.
      2. Papakiko
        Papakiko 14 May 2013 09: 50
        13
        Quote: Professor
        In the first photo, a landmine tank

        You are ours, Herrr Professor.
        Ay-yi-yi to deceive citizens, for the first photo about a land mine.
        "Morkva" on the hillock ogrebla from RPG, ATGM or ATGM.

        You will again "doggie" with the readers and visitors of the resource.
        Better lay out "rare photos" and an article analysis of the actions of the crews and TSEKHAL. It is better to love than to deal with opom. drinks
        1. Professor
          Professor 14 May 2013 09: 59
          -8
          "Morkva" on the hillock ogrebla from RPG, ATGM or ATGM.

          She burned with shame.
      3. baton140105
        baton140105 14 May 2013 10: 59
        +3
        And fire extinguishers didn’t, either?
      4. neri73-r
        neri73-r 14 May 2013 17: 47
        +4
        This type - does not count?
        1. Professor
          Professor 14 May 2013 18: 12
          -2
          Of course it is believed, but it will not be enough for the tank to continuously fight since 1982. Impenetrable only. (this is not about us and you)
      5. Argon
        Argon 14 May 2013 23: 22
        0
        what landmine is he standing on the side of the mountain? Explicitly swept inside by an explosion.
    3. Canep
      Canep 14 May 2013 09: 19
      13
      I’ve looked for Merkava myself:






      And according to Abrams, see their sea yourself.
      1. Professor
        Professor 14 May 2013 10: 02
        +1
        The first and second photos are a land mine, the third photo is a photo of Magakh, that the fourth - the barrel was replaced "on the spot", in the fifth the tank lost its caterpillar - pulled "on the spot".
        1. Papakiko
          Papakiko 14 May 2013 10: 36
          +9
          Quote: Professor
          The first and second photo of a land mine

          How do the Palestinians manage to guess the routes of movement of "carrots" on "virgin lands" by laying "land mines" or are there continuous minefields?
          Or "smart generals" TSEKHAL did not think in advance about "radio jammers" for "radio bombs"?
          Questions can be addressed a lot.

          Do dear Herrrr Professor article and you will ALILUA.
          Without this scandalously verified article with photos and videos, you are doomed to eternal horror with your opponents (which causes the SECRETARY IN MY BRAIN). I thank you for the creation of work. wink
          1. Professor
            Professor 14 May 2013 10: 42
            0
            Quote: Papakiko
            How do the Palestinians manage to guess the routes of movement of "carrots" on "virgin lands" by laying "land mines" or are there continuous minefields?

            The last time I checked Hezbollah was not a Palestinian group and was based far from the steppe relief, and in the mountains you see the choice of routes is somewhat limited.

            Do dear Herrrr Professor article and you will ALILUA.

            My NO you see is still not clear. I repeat: NO.
            1. Papakiko
              Papakiko 14 May 2013 12: 13
              +9
              Quote: Professor
              Hezbollah was not a Palestinian group

              I belong to Hezbollah from the Arctic to the "northern lights".
              Israel is fighting not with "mythical" abbreviations, but with the peoples inhabiting the lands cut by the British Empire into "pseudo-states" (Syria, Lebanon, Gaza, West Bank, Jordan) Palestinians or Arabs to call them is already rhetoric.
              Quote: Professor
              Last time I checked

              I smiled heartily laughing
              Quote: Professor
              It was based far from the steppe relief, but in the mountains you see the choice of routes is somewhat limited.

              Well, it even became quite sad: Why was it that in the "open field" in the non-urban development TSEKHAL, with the all-round superiority of "Hezbalu", was not buried in the ground (Thermal imagers, radars, electronic warfare, etc.)? Hezbollah is alive and even buys missiles in Syria for shelling Israel. (This is from the official statements of the Israeli leadership)
              Well, honestly, everything is Kindergarten-Nursery Group.
              Quote: Professor
              My NO you see is still not clear. I repeat: NO.

              Well then, it’s completely unclear to your desire to constantly ORK with your opponents here. Once exhausted and in ACE. good
            2. neri73-r
              neri73-r 14 May 2013 17: 50
              +3
              Does censorship prohibit? But what about freedom and independence ???
            3. Professor
              Professor 14 May 2013 18: 13
              -4
              I am a free man in a free country and have made such a decision myself.
            4. gizz
              gizz 14 May 2013 18: 24
              +4
              And what is a free country? It’s written in your PM that you live in Akademgorodok ...
            5. Professor
              Professor 14 May 2013 18: 34
              0
              In the freest country in the world, North Korea, of course. laughing
            6. gizz
              gizz 14 May 2013 18: 52
              +2
              Do they have academic campuses? smile
  • Kars
    Kars 14 May 2013 10: 27
    +9
    With this photo of years and years, the bottom one is generally from Beirut. Edenichka.

    Photos of damaged Merkavs are only a few, you can’t write anything here. You can’t argue with the photo.
    As for the fire extinguishing system, it is considered almost the best in the world, and I even agree with that.
    1. Papakiko
      Papakiko 14 May 2013 11: 24
      0
      Quote: Kars
      Photos of damaged Merkavs are only a few, you can’t write anything here. You can’t argue with the photo.

      What do we see in this photo?
      The damage is clearly not from RPGs, ATGMs or ATGMs. Therefore, "reliability" is confirmed doubtfully.
      Quote: Kars
      About the fire fighting system

      ????????????????? many questions.
      1. Kars
        Kars 14 May 2013 12: 47
        +4
        Quote: Papakiko
        The damage is clearly not from RPGs, ATGMs or ATGMs.

        ATGM
        Quote: Papakiko
        Therefore, "reliability" is confirmed doubtfully.

        ?
        Quote: Papakiko
        many questions.

        for example?
        1. Papakiko
          Papakiko 14 May 2013 13: 41
          +6
          Quote: Kars
          ATGM

          I do not see the characteristic "burn" from the Anti-Tank Ammunition.
          I observe the physical destruction of the modules from being hit (heavy machine gun with explosive, grenades from the AGS, ending with a hand grenade or a hefty boulder from the side of a mountain)
          a sledgehammer and crowbar for a dispute for a couple of liters of vodka for example.
          wink

          The video shows what a representative of the "golden billion" can do on a bet. but what the representatives of the former USSR can do on a dispute in the internet is a lot. good
          1. Kars
            Kars 14 May 2013 13: 55
            +1
            Quote: Papakiko
            I do not see the characteristic "burn" from the Anti-Tank Ammunition.

            Take a closer look, imagine the missing pieces of armor protection, and blown off plates

            Quote: Papakiko
            I observe the physical destruction of the modules from being hit (heavy machine gun with explosive, grenades from the AGS, ending with a hand grenade or a hefty boulder from the side of a mountain)


            from all of the above except for a boulder.
          2. Papakiko
            Papakiko 14 May 2013 14: 36
            +1
            Quote: Kars
            from all of the above except for a boulder.

            Thank you wink good
            http://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/history/2nd-lebanon-war/acv-losses/
            Here is the weighted average loss figures of the TSEHAL in 2006.
            About the fire extinguishing system is also written, forest.
  • ed65b
    ed65b 14 May 2013 14: 24
    +3
    Yes, yes, as in the joke "what kind of fire and an ambulance is behind - it's a fire extinguisher and a first aid kit"
  • neri73-r
    neri73-r 14 May 2013 17: 46
    +1
    svp67
    You are well done!!!! Now the professor will have more than two photos in the collection, the main thing is that the computer can stand it, otherwise he has problems with the memory of black and burned mercavas!
  • lazy
    lazy 14 May 2013 14: 48
    0
    wrecked tank merkava
    everyone collects what he likes
  • neri73-r
    neri73-r 14 May 2013 17: 24
    +1
    From my personal collection of photographs (I stopped replenishing it for almost a year, there is not enough disk space) of tanks with a turret, to put it mildly, out of place. Particularly striking is the "fire extinguishing system" ...


    These are photos of two wrecked tanks taken from the angle of each degree out of 360 ???? As in Iraq, this garbage (forgery) of independent media has already been exposed during the Iraq war and no one believes in it, professor!
  • mazdie
    mazdie 15 May 2013 00: 46
    +2
    With all due respect to you, the professor, never in my memory have American or Israeli tanks entered the battle until the most severe air and art training, and Russian tanks, as a rule, are at the forefront wherever they fight.
  • zaitsev
    zaitsev 17 May 2013 00: 41
    0
    the system might already be empty ...
  • fzr1000
    fzr1000 14 May 2013 11: 32
    +8
    Those. losses of 1 tank (written off for "superstitious" reasons) in 8 months - doesn't it put everything in its place?

    "Professor", send three or four Merkavas of any index to Syria and fight them there and not like you, with preliminary shelling, air cover, etc., but in tandem with 1-2 BMP-1 and an infantry platoon without flamethrowers, UAVs, thermal imagers, without normal communications and without snipers with modern weapons. You yourself understand, if you are a sane person, that they will quickly come to an end, like T 72, and Abrams, and Leo 2, and the devil knows what else. The Syrians only "learned" to fight in the city for about a year, so these videos are not surprising.
    1. Professor
      Professor 14 May 2013 11: 45
      +1
      Merkava in Gaza has worked repeatedly and even against the Cornets. But you must be able to fight - no one argues with that.
      1. fzr1000
        fzr1000 14 May 2013 13: 02
        +6
        Alone and without cover? Then the IDF Jedi.
        1. neodymium
          neodymium 14 May 2013 14: 32
          10
          So what do you stop a person from uncompromisingly praising everything related to his new homeland?
          Or do you want objectivity?
          1. fzr1000
            fzr1000 14 May 2013 15: 25
            +5
            "Who doesn't want her."
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. The comment was deleted.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • Bezarius
    Bezarius 19 May 2013 00: 21
    0
    True story, maybe it would even be a ride if it were all here. So do not make yourself an idiot plz.
  • mojohed
    mojohed 14 May 2013 08: 12
    +5
    But where did the Merkavas especially fight with the Abrams? In Iraq or Afghanistan? So there were no special large-scale clashes. Moreover, something is not heard of the witnesses of those American tanks, the crews of which experienced the shock force of RPGs and ATGMs, where are their comments and insights on the strength of American weapons?
    And why is Abrash better than, say, Leopard? Or is there Leclerc? What is better?
    1. Slevinst
      Slevinst 14 May 2013 09: 55
      +5
      the ratio of T72 fights to the battles of the Merkas and Abrams combined at least 1: 1000, the real figure may be more, this just speaks of the number of those killed or those
    2. Blackgrifon
      Blackgrifon 19 May 2013 22: 34
      0
      And who said that Abrams is better? An interesting fact, almost all of Europe and South America + Canada prefer Leopards. And India, Pakistan, South Korea and China (that is, countries that are not indifferent to their forces) also for some reason prefer the Soviet / Russian tank school. Maybe all these countries simply don’t know that their tanks are bad and they need to buy Abrams in bulk? :)
  • mogus
    mogus 14 May 2013 08: 27
    +6
    Quote: Professor
    The article was written before the famous events in Syria, which put a lot in their places.


    The experience can be different, good and bad, for example: http://vpk.name/news/85890_siriiskie_boeviki_v_uzhase_ot_nashih_tankov.html

    http://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/t72-myth/

    Up to 15 hits from RPGs and the tank remains in service, not tenacious?
    1. Professor
      Professor 14 May 2013 08: 33
      -5
      Are the militants horrified? Let's not start uploading photos and videos of how terrified they are.

      Quote: mogus
      Up to 15 hits from RPGs and the tank remains in service, not tenacious?

      Bring clips where one hit was enough even in the forehead of the tank? request
      1. mogus
        mogus 14 May 2013 08: 40
        14
        I wrote above: "experience is different, good and bad." There are videos with one hit about any tank, do you want about the Merkava? Why did you decide that the T-72 survives poorly? On the reviews of tankers from Syria, on this site in videos, they say the opposite of your opinion.
        1. Professor
          Professor 14 May 2013 08: 54
          -8
          Quote: mogus
          want about Merkava

          Oh, how I want. Share the Merkava incapacitation video with one RPG shot in the forehead.

          Why did you decide that the T-72 does not survive well.

          This is my personal opinion based on close attention to the civil war in Syria. Naturally, neither I nor anyone else saw any scientific and independent research, and it is unlikely to see it.

          On the reviews of tankers from Syria, on this site in commercials, they say the opposite of your opinion.

          Hundreds of dead tankers cannot share their experience.
          1. mogus
            mogus 14 May 2013 09: 39
            +4
            do not distort. Where did I write "head-on"? Maybe I like to kick everyone (girls) from behind? Photo: I'm afraid that the moderators will do something to me for the flood (number of photos), so go to Yandex, score "the merkava is hit", click on the "photo" section and enjoy. Video: the same request on youtube.
            1. denisey
              denisey 14 May 2013 18: 23
              +2
              here is a great video
          2. mogus
            mogus 14 May 2013 09: 45
            +2
            about hundreds of dead tankers-link?
          3. Papakiko
            Papakiko 14 May 2013 09: 57
            12
            Quote: Professor
            Oh, how I want. Share the Merkava incapacitation video with one RPG shot in the forehead.

            If TSEKHAL pays for my round trip and provides "Morkva" and RPGs, I will personally make a video filming and make a head-on.
            So fit? wink

            But it seems that this will not happen, right !?
            No one will allow one to fall into "useless" spending to confirm the obvious things.
            And it is precisely that the AMAZING AMUNITION POSSIBILITIES ALREADY EXCELLENTLY EXCEED THE ARMOR AND PROTECTION POSSIBILITIES.
          4. Suvorov000
            Suvorov000 14 May 2013 10: 12
            15
            Listen, professor of sour cabbage soup, if the Israelis begin to roll you like Syria, when your older brother does not support your pants, then you will not last as long as Syria holds on, anticipating your cry that you are at war all the time, then relax do not strain your glands)) your post-game with poorly armed half-starved Palestinians are not impressive, you hang noodles on others ears
            1. Professor
              Professor 14 May 2013 10: 31
              +2
              Although you have chosen such a nickname, your history is not right. Until 1967, the "older brother" did not particularly support Israel, which independently rolled over the armies of 8 countries, and not "poorly armed, half-starved Palestinians." This is an educational program for you.

              Learn to behave, We are not rude. We ourselves are rude. (with)
              1. Suvorov000
                Suvorov000 14 May 2013 11: 01
                +4
                You are a professor of acidic cabbage soup, when you turn on the fool, at least do it as you should, you shout that you have good doctors, so go to the doctor psychiatrist, he will tell you how to do this, just look so that he would receive a medical education in Russian and Soviet is even better. I didn’t ask you about the story. When you are told about the current state of affairs, for some reason you begin to talk about the past. You yourself can roll only vodka 200 grams that way. You leave the program for yourself. And I behave myself pretty well)) no one was rude to you, you just don't know what to be rude yet))
                1. Professor
                  Professor 14 May 2013 11: 47
                  -4
                  You are not rude to the elders and do not judge others by yourself. Another rudeness and add to your persona well-deserved blacklist. There are many such patients.
                  1. Suvorov000
                    Suvorov000 14 May 2013 12: 43
                    +2
                    You are wiping your snot with your granddaughters and granddaughters, and teach them what to do, I only judge you for my dearest foe.
              2. old man54
                old man54 14 May 2013 18: 14
                +8
                Quote: Professor
                Until 1967, the "older brother" did not particularly support Israel, which independently rolled over the armies of 8 countries, and not "poorly armed, half-starved Palestinians." This is an educational program for you. (C)


                Professor, this is you 2 !! in history, although you may have it there, in "Izergil" it is now interpreted in this way! :))
                1. Until the beginning of the 50s and from the beginning of its formation "Izergil" supported the USSR with Stalin at the head, transferring him a bunch of captured German weapons, including Messerschmitt planes as well as the weapons of the Sov. pr-va!
                2. And then, of course, England :)) And how could it be otherwise, because you and her were turned out from Egypt in 1956 like pissed kittens from Egypt, no matter how you are accomplices! Your "cruiser" "Eilat" (English 2nd MV destroyer) who drove you, huh? :))
                3. Well, when it became clear that the shaving did not pull the program, the Yankees directly came out of their shadow! :))
                1. Professor
                  Professor 14 May 2013 18: 36
                  -3
                  Take a closer look at the history of how the Britons "fitted" weapons, and especially focus on 1967. It is very indicative who fought and how.
            2. old man54
              old man54 14 May 2013 18: 05
              +8
              Quote: Suvorov000
              Listen, professor of sour cabbage soup, if the Israelis start rolling you like Syria, when your older brother does not support your panties,


              Finally, a real and competent comment, I support it by 200% !!!!!!! The Jews are only masters of puffing their cheeks behind amers, or huddling closer to the English girls and paddling pools in 1956 in Egypt! But in the very foreseeable future there will come a time when Sam will no longer have time for "old Izergill", and then we'll see how the Muslims will tear them apart for all their previous mischief and sinister tricks! I really want to see it personally. :)
              1. Professor
                Professor 14 May 2013 18: 16
                -4
                Quote: old man54
                I really want to see it personally. :)

                Feed the Wishlist as it should, otherwise you may not live to see such a glorious moment. bully
                I won’t teach you stories - it’s useless. request
                1. old man54
                  old man54 14 May 2013 23: 50
                  +2
                  Quote: Professor

                  Feed the Wishlist as it should, otherwise you may not live to see such a glorious moment. bully
                  I won’t teach you stories - it’s useless. request


                  And this is true, about teaching. :) And about the future of this state and the people as a whole ... wait and see! Maybe I’ll take part in it myself, it’s a righteous thing! I hope so. But what are you bothering with, professor, you have all the trenches in Siberia now, in our Akademgorodok. :))
                2. Suvorov000
                  Suvorov000 15 May 2013 14: 17
                  +4
                  Professor of sour cabbage soup, everyone already knows how you know the story, your level of parochial school does not impress, your hotel as you already understood is well-fed and there is no erection function, so when you and your mom take on you, you won’t have time
                  1. Professor
                    Professor 15 May 2013 14: 26
                    -3
                    I cry and cry, but not this, I won’t do it anymore crying
          5. commentor
            commentor 14 May 2013 12: 26
            19
            We will reflect on the coolness of the Merkav when Israel dares to put them up for tender for evaluation.
            While the information field around these tanks is created by the producing country, there is nothing to talk about.

            Until the 2000s, Abrams was also positioned in advertisements with an impenetrable fortress, after the second company in Iraq, the stories came down to ordinary slogans.

            Let's look at the results when the Merkavas meet with the Egyptian Abrams.
          6. Blackgrifon
            Blackgrifon 19 May 2013 22: 40
            0
            Professor, please provide information about the losses in the technology of the Armed Forces of Syria.
            The phrase about "hundreds of dead tankmen", as I understand it is about the Syrian military personnel, sounds unrealistic. The crew of the T-72 consists of 3 people, it turns out that the Syrian Armed Forces lost, in your opinion, at least 40-60 tanks, but if this is so, then the "free" press would not be silent about this.
      2. Lopatov
        Lopatov 14 May 2013 08: 45
        +3
        Quote: Professor
        Bring clips where one hit was enough even in the forehead of the tank?

        How is the English "Challenger"? Bring.
        1. Professor
          Professor 14 May 2013 09: 03
          -3
          Quote: Spade
          How is the English "Challenger"? Bring.

          Did not catch the connection with the Challenger?
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 14 May 2013 09: 15
            +8
            He was hit from the RPG-7 in the forehead. The real fact recognized by the British.
        2. igor67
          igor67 14 May 2013 10: 41
          -6
          t 62 Syrian. breaking through the forehead. Golan Heights
          1. Canep
            Canep 14 May 2013 11: 30
            +7
            You would have glued pictures of the BT-5 knocked out by the Germans here, we are discussing the T-72B and newer tanks.
          2. yanus
            yanus 14 May 2013 11: 33
            10
            Syrian T-62. Golan Heights. Summer 2012. Have I missed a war?

            And yes, the hole is from RPG-7? Is there nearby Apache, shot down by a peasant from a rifle, nowhere to be seen?
            1. igor67
              igor67 14 May 2013 11: 40
              -1
              Quote: yanus
              Syrian T-62. Golan Heights. Summer 2012. Have I missed a war?

              And yes, the hole is from RPG-7? Is there nearby Apache, shot down by a peasant from a rifle, nowhere to be seen?

              at the beginning of the article, the wise guy wrote: “Here the Russian T-72 tanks and even the“ veterans ”of the T-62 far surpassed in survivability the vaunted“ Abrams ”used during the aggression against Iraq. This time. Also, in the pictures laid out above the merkava of the first version is also not shot from RPG. And the summer of 2012 because I shot then
              1. yanus
                yanus 14 May 2013 16: 06
                +3
                Quote: igor67
                And the summer of 2012 because I shot then

                SchA guess, a school trip?
                1. igor67
                  igor67 14 May 2013 17: 01
                  -2
                  Quote: yanus
                  Quote: igor67
                  And the summer of 2012 because I shot then

                  SchA guess, a school trip?

                  Guessed Dytynko, school trip
              2. CAMS
                CAMS 14 May 2013 17: 37
                +3
                this is not an RPG, the fool is clear
                1. igor67
                  igor67 14 May 2013 18: 03
                  -2
                  Quote: KAMS
                  this is not an RPG, the fool is clear

                  Of course, this is not an RPG, but from a tank shell, from Centurion
          3. leon-iv
            leon-iv 14 May 2013 11: 35
            +5
            if it’s from an RPG, then I’m a ballerina weighing under 100 kg.
            1. saturn.mmm
              saturn.mmm 14 May 2013 15: 13
              +3
              It’s more like breaking through an RPG
              1. Professor
                Professor 14 May 2013 16: 04
                -4
                Penetration also implies an outlet.
                1. yanus
                  yanus 14 May 2013 17: 46
                  0
                  Quote: Professor
                  Penetration also implies an outlet.

                  Well, show me the photo where this hole is not? No photo - then there is a hole! )))
          4. Volkhov
            Volkhov 14 May 2013 14: 11
            -1
            The tank is more likely militants, lined by the Syrians from T-72 - the Syrians are yellow, and the bandits used the T-55, and when they spent it, they received the T-62 from the Russian Federation and Ukraine.
            1. neri73-r
              neri73-r 14 May 2013 18: 00
              +2
              and when they spent, they got T-62 from the Russian Federation and Ukraine

              You are out of your mind, do not drink in the morning!
              1. gizz
                gizz 14 May 2013 18: 36
                +2
                Maybe a person drank too much), but from somewhere bandits get equipment after all, and by no means American / European.
              2. Volkhov
                Volkhov 15 May 2013 10: 54
                +1
                Quote: neri73-r
                You are out of your mind, do not drink in the morning!

                In any case, the tank was hit by a sub-caliber from the T-72 - even if this T-62 is Syrian, it means that the bandits were given the T-72, which is also happening - 4 vehicles were marked in Daraya after the Oboronservis repair, in another area the Syrian base was attacked by 36 machines of different types.
                Reality and propaganda are the opposite.
          5. old man54
            old man54 15 May 2013 13: 00
            +2
            quote
            Quote: igor67
            t 62 Syrian. breaking through the forehead. Golan Heights

            But I really doubt very much that this is the Syrian T-62 and this hole "in the forehead" under the tower was made precisely in battle!
            Firstly, for some reason, why does he have a trace of RPG defeat on the tower, but then he could be ridiculed by RPG, if they had already pierced his forehead and most likely no one was left alive?
            Secondly, I personally was at the Dutch heights (on the Syrian side) and there is a completely different landscape and vegetation. There are such violent thickets, as in the photo behind the tank and there is no mention whatsoever, there is mountainous terrain!
            As a conclusion: this is most likely a long-standing captured tank, captured by Jews during various wars, used repeatedly at training ranges for training attacks (why the external condition of the tank is so terrible) and lastly, for false propaganda and calming down their "warriors" and probably fired from meters 100/50 direct ammunition of a new type and now they run around the world and show this photo. In general, this is very in their spirit, the Jews! :)))
            1. Professor
              Professor 15 May 2013 13: 37
              -3
              Quote: old man54
              Secondly, I personally was at the Dutch heights (on the Syrian side) and there is a completely different landscape and vegetation

              You examined the landscape and vegetation in the corners of the photo and even determined that they are different? Now it’s clear why the Syrians purged all wars, with advisers like you, this is not surprising. Is it better to see?

              http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/249927928/

              http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3208/2947829312_b2177841ef_z.jpg?zz=1

              http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/249927928/sizes/l/in/photostream/


              As a conclusion: this is most likely a long-standing trophy tank captured by Jews during various wars, used repeatedly at training ranges for shelling

              Repeatedly and only 2 times hit? wink
              1. old man54
                old man54 15 May 2013 19: 41
                +2
                Quote: Professor

                You examined the landscape and vegetation in the corners of the photo and even determined that they are different? Now it’s clear why the Syrians purged all wars, with advisers like you, this is not surprising. Is it better to see?
                Well, I was not there as an adviser, maybe for the better, or maybe not, who knows! :) It remains only to be very sorry that you were not at the IDF and have a military adviser, then it would have been nice, even Sam wouldn’t help. :))) Well, if on the last of your photos this tank is near the Dutch heights, then here in Siberia the Himalayas are easy! :)))

                As a conclusion: this is most likely a long-standing trophy tank captured by Jews during various wars, used repeatedly at training ranges for shelling

                Repeatedly and only 2 times hit? wink

                Did you look at the tower? There the impression is that, like in the DOSAF dash, the target is old, everything is broken. And the main thing is heap how, like during the battle they beat it so hard with machine guns and machine guns, there was nothing for the soldiers from the IDF to do? :) moved also for at least several years. All this can be seen without seven spans in the forehead! :) At the same time, the armor of the tank is worn out as if crowds of people were constantly climbing over it all the time, the poor one already shines. You won't see this on the frontline! Well, it's understandable, photo sessions with amazed Jewish girls, and again school trips, isn't it, "Professor"? :)))
                1. Professor
                  Professor 15 May 2013 21: 23
                  -2
                  Quote: old man54
                  Well, if in the last of your photos this tank is located near the Dutch heights, then here in Siberia the Himalayas are easy here! :)))

                  As I understand it, you finally considered the Golan, and that’s already good. wink Since the tank is located not near the Golan Heights, and in the Golan Heights as you have already been explained.

                  There is the impression that, as in the DOSAF dash, the target is old, everything is broken.

                  You never saw the tank that was used as a target. Show photos and find yourself?

                  The general condition of the tank is such that it can be seen that it has not been used for 10 years already, and it has not been moved from its place for at least several years either.

                  Even Holmes could envy your observation. This tank has been standing in the Golan for 40 years (it is clear that it has not been used for 10 years already), his children clambered over several generations, both Jewish and Arab.
                  1. old man54
                    old man54 21 May 2013 19: 53
                    +1
                    [quote = professor] Golan, as I understand it, you finally looked at it, and that's good. wink Since the tank is located not near the Golan Heights, and in the Golan Heights as you have already been explained. [/ quoteА
                    You will explain something to the prosecutor, when the turn comes to Vavs, I don’t need your explanations! :) I didn’t answer, because it was a pity for the time, and it’s worth proving something to you, when you’re neither history, nor elementary geography, a tooth with a foot "! For the slow-witted from Akademgorodok, hiding behind the nickname "professor" (question to Freud :)))), I explain that there is practically no greenery on the Dutch heights, especially trees, this is a mountainous area. And having posted a photo with a large panarama, you, professor, generally got into a puddle, the one who posted it first was more intelligent that he did not show the general picture of the area, tk. there is generally a plain, GREEN !!!, and certainly not the Dutch heights !! Go to study geography, professor, geography of your native land, at least! :))) If these are Dutch heights, then Akademgorodok, where you live happily and for some reason, do not rush to your historical homeland, in general it is located in the mountains, like the Alps! :)) )

                    [quote = professor] You never saw a tank that was used as a target. Show photos and find yourself? [/ Quote]
                    I saw it, but you can strain yourself. :) Aya I tell you that the frontal penetration is not a re-entry! Having shown the whole tank, you screwed up to the fullest, along with your uniform, because it is clearly visible that this T-62 was blown up by an anti-tank mine, most likely an anti-track, left caterpillar. And everything else, including traces of a kroanokalibernogo machine gun, pierce the RPG on the turret, frontal cross, or this is a "fancy" after, on the already "dead" "dragon"! Our 45-ka times of the Great Patriotic War in the proving grounds also took the "Tiger" in the forehead, but only from 25/30 meters, no more, and now what? :)) It's very Jewish for you, professor of sour cabbage soup, to fire an already knocked-out tank , take a picture and run around the world with pictures, they say, here they are, Russian tanks. :( And then also live in Russia and immediately scold her, in everything. :) And most importantly, several thousand years of your history do not teach you anything, Jews, which is depressing: ((

                    [quote = professor] Even Holmes could envy your observation. This tank has been standing in the Golan for 40 years (it is clear that it has not been used for 10 years already), his children clambered over several generations, both Jewish and Arab. [/ quote]
                    about 40 years you, as always, lied, well, you can’t live without it, but from 82 after the events in the south of Lebanon and in the Bek valley it can be there! Inadvertently, his right skating rinks had already gone into the ground and had grown grass!
                    1. Professor
                      Professor 21 May 2013 21: 38
                      0
                      Quote: old man54
                      I explain that on the Dutch heights there is practically no greenery, especially trees, this is a mountainous area.

                      And do not explain, but at least look at the photos from http://www.panoramio.com. There are a lot of things there. wink
                      http://www.panoramio.com/photo_explorer#view=photo&position=1073&with_photo_id=3

                      6036508 & order = date_desc & user = 681114


                      Is the tank visible? wink
                      http://www.panoramio.com/photo_explorer#view=list&position=1056&with_photo_id=36
                      053615 & order = date_desc & user = 681114


                      Quote: old man54
                      And having posted the photo with a larger pan-panorama, you, the professor, generally got into a puddle, the one who posted it first was more smart that you did not show the general picture of the area, because there is generally a plain, GREEN !!!, and certainly not Dutch heights !!

                      In this I absolutely agree with you, this is not the GolanДand the Golan Heights.
                      You at least open a topographic map to see what would lead a plateau in the Golan. fool You are ignorant, the photograph from the T-62 was taken in the Golan Heights in the so-called Valley of Tears. Have you heard of this? Here are the coordinates of the tank: 33 ° 10'37.95 "N 35 ° 47'52.65" E (to teach how to use the coordinates?) Then I don't read your scribbles. fool
              2. old man54
                old man54 21 May 2013 20: 10
                +1
                Quote: Professor
                Now it’s clear why the Syrians purged all wars, with advisers like you, this is not surprising.

                I didn't want to waste time on this, but apparently I have to! It is not for you, "professor of sour cabbage soup", to judge me in these matters and Syria is certainly not for YOU !!!! Syria has always fought not only with "Izergil", but with the Western world, and they did it very well before, and even now! I sincerely regret that such "clever people" like you, professor, are not in the IDF's "advisers", otherwise the Jews would have been squeezed from the Promised Land long ago, and with wild cries and lamentations they would jump onto the mattress fleet, repeating the operation "Frequent Wind" from 1975.
                Well, or at least they would rush to destroy the Jewish defense industry, and the professor :)), then you look and your "Morkva" will be a simple Arab boot to break through!
  • Kars
    Kars 14 May 2013 08: 43
    +5
    So, for example, the T-90S has already managed to show itself perfectly in tank battles on the Indo-Pakistani border.


    When will the details be made public? How many Pakistani T-80UDs and Al-Khalids were knocked out?
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 14 May 2013 09: 04
      +2
      Quote: Kars
      When will the details be made public?

      As soon as they find a good science fiction writer.
    2. Kars
      Kars 14 May 2013 10: 38
      +3
      About the assessment I see that there are those who are familiar with the details of tank battles on the Indo-Pakistani border))))))))))
      feel free to speak out)))
    3. Scythian 35
      Scythian 35 14 May 2013 15: 54
      -8
      I ask about that too !!!! The second series of the epic taknkovy battles, the first series - "how the T-72 burned with hundreds of Merkavas" Just the article was written not for you, but for those who put plus signs !!! laughing

      with respect.
      1. Scythian 35
        Scythian 35 14 May 2013 19: 35
        +1
        Oh, I have already gathered six people who will soon tell us an epic on the topic "Combat applications of the t-90 tank in the Indo-Pakistani wars" laughing
  • Boot under the carpet
    Boot under the carpet 14 May 2013 08: 44
    +3
    I think everyone knows perfectly well about the advantages of our tanks and without their nose.
    1. Sirocco
      Sirocco 14 May 2013 11: 07
      15
      Quote: Boot under the carpet
      I think everyone knows perfectly well about the advantages of our tanks and without their nose.

      Although Russia was not one of the first to enter tank building, the results achieved in this industry remain one of the best in the world. Starting from the T-34 to this day, we have been steering in this industry. What are such discoveries in metallurgy worth from meters such as Amosov P.P., Obukhov P.M., Chernov D.K., they made the greatest discoveries in the field of metallurgy, the technology for manufacturing high-quality steels. Whoever says that, the West in this industry as an outsider. Many people can poke their nose about modern stuffing, but here I will answer you that the lag in this industry did not affect combat readiness, although all this electronics can play a cruel joke in case of failure, the tank will be blind, deaf, and helpless. As a result, as always, what is simpler and more reliable.
      1. ed65b
        ed65b 14 May 2013 14: 13
        +8
        Many can poke their noses about the modern stuffing, but here I will answer you that the lag in this industry did not affect combat readiness, although all this electronics can play a cruel joke in case of failure, the tank will be blind, deaf, and helpless. As a result, as always, what is simpler and more reliable.

        and in Chechnya there are many examples when a fellow stuffed with electronics left the battle just because of problems with the electronics, while the other continued the fighting. and such examples are described quite a lot.
  • Denis_SF
    Denis_SF 14 May 2013 08: 44
    30
    I always liked the attitude of many of our American-oriented pseudo-specialists: if the T-72 withstood the thuja heap of hits from everything that is possible and remained in service, then this is enchanting luck and incredible luck of the tank and the enchanted crew; if Abrams was harnessed from the first grenade, the royal flush fell to the grenade launcher, and the tank was occupied by black cats and women with empty buckets in front of him! How is all this one-sided, do not you think?
    1. Canep
      Canep 14 May 2013 09: 14
      +5
      A tank is not a piece of equipment, but a massive armament of the army, with other things being approximately equal, the best tank will be the cheapest tank. T-34 is a good example, no one can still not calculate how many were released.
  • Regis
    Regis 14 May 2013 09: 12
    +3
    I caught myself thinking. Recently, I’ve been reading topics about modern tanks, only in the hope that a Mechanic will come here (I hope the nickname was written correctly) and tell something interesting about Armata))
  • kot11180
    kot11180 14 May 2013 09: 16
    +9
    the professor should not collect a collection of photos while sitting at the computer, but communicate with those who really fought and survived in our tanks (not necessarily in Syria - there are enough examples in the Caucasus), I talked and I don’t need photos, the war shows which tank is worth
    1. Professor
      Professor 14 May 2013 09: 36
      -9
      I repeat, it is impossible to talk with those who did not survive and they will not talk about "high survivability."
      1. kot11180
        kot11180 14 May 2013 10: 12
        +5
        I repeat, it is impossible to talk with those who did not survive and they will not talk about "high survivability." Abramsov and Merkav
  • The comment was deleted.
  • leon-iv
    leon-iv 14 May 2013 09: 38
    +5
    Again 25 times about the same thing.
    Any tank is good with a trained crew.
    And in Syria, tanks are fighting 24/7 and I would look like carrots look when they are all mercilessly chased constantly throughout the year. And it’s hard to spend maybe a little spare parts and time. I am sure that by more than 146% we would see building blocks for protection against RPGs on carrots.
    1. Phantom Revolution
      Phantom Revolution 14 May 2013 17: 17
      +4
      Yes, if carrots fought without a hitch, as it is in Syria, then most likely we would not have time to see this.
  • ed65b
    ed65b 14 May 2013 09: 43
    12
    There is a site artofwar.ru Memoirs of veterans of many wars from Afghanistan and Africa to Chechnya there are a lot of interesting things you can read about tankers as well. As for the Abrams and Merkas, each profound praises his proffesor Jewish tanks as the best in the world of Amerikosy - Abrams, patriots and it pleases. only the Germans are silent. We have weaned them from talking.
  • vitas
    vitas 14 May 2013 09: 47
    -3
    Waiting for fittings !!!!
    1. pensioner
      pensioner 14 May 2013 10: 16
      +4
      Quote: vitas
      Waiting for fittings !!!!

      After all, I’ve got it ...
  • Dima190579
    Dima190579 14 May 2013 10: 03
    +4
    According to the rating of tanks of the world, prepared by the American agency Forecast International, the best tank at present is the American M1A2 SEP Abrams.

    As the Buddha said, "There are three things that cannot be hidden: the sun, the moon and the truth."

    The more American agencies lie, the less they will believe them.
  • Marconi41
    Marconi41 14 May 2013 10: 21
    +5
    Oh how! And let's compare the T-34 and the Leopard! Professor, this is not entirely correct. Each war has its own episodes. During the 2nd World War, there were heaps of facts of the return of the mutilated IL-2 from the battle, but how many of them died then ?!
    The fact that our tanks are not in the rating only speaks about the compilers of this rating. And the T-72 saved more than one tanker.
    1. Professor
      Professor 14 May 2013 10: 33
      -4
      Ratings and all sorts of comparisons are not a gratifying thing, however, statements about "high survivability" in the modern development of the Internet and multimedia do not look serious at all.
      1. yanus
        yanus 14 May 2013 11: 37
        +8
        Quote: Professor
        Ratings and all sorts of comparisons are not a gratifying thing, however, statements about "high survivability" in the modern development of the Internet and multimedia do not look serious at all.

        The availability of information does not mean the ability to adequately perceive and analyze it.
        1. Professor
          Professor 14 May 2013 11: 49
          0
          For a long time I have not met a serious analysis of the survivability of a tank, this article also does not draw on it.
          1. Scythian 35
            Scythian 35 14 May 2013 15: 19
            -3
            Professor

            about the article - or did I forget, and in which tank battles in the Indo-Pakistani conflicts was the t-90 used, maybe you have any data on this topic, otherwise I don’t remember this !!!?

            with respect.
            1. Professor
              Professor 14 May 2013 15: 27
              -2
              He did not participate in any. hi
  • OCD
    OCD 14 May 2013 10: 30
    11
    Where did the Merkavas and Abrams fight? With the Palestinians, so they are not warriors. There are many abrams left in Iraq. Our military equipment is better, more reliable. A neighbor of the Great Patriotic War veteran said, 3 times he burned in tanks. 2 times in 34, and 1 time in Sherman. Then he remained disabled. 34 were simple, without any comfort, and reliable, and therefore saved. And the Shermans burned like candles, since the heat and noise insulation burned so well, and often the crew gasped and died from the products of the burning of the casing, and was not able to leave the car. I think not much has changed in our time.
  • Mr. Truth
    Mr. Truth 14 May 2013 10: 35
    26
    T-72 tank is not the best and not the most protected, but in bestial condition, with minimal maintenance, it behaves like a Spartan.
  • Prapor Afonya
    Prapor Afonya 14 May 2013 10: 37
    +3
    Quote: Spade
    Quote: bask
    Tank M1, Abrams, weighs 70 tons, and T-72B-44 tons.

    Weight does not really matter. A lighter tank can be better protected than a heavier tank.

    Moreover, there is no good protection from a powerful mine explosion, one tankman told me that they had a mechanical water driver, after the destruction of three mines by a mine trawl (notice, not even a super bottom, the trawl is located at a distance from the tank) it was commissioned by cantus.
  • ed65b
    ed65b 14 May 2013 10: 40
    17
    In the next battle on January 7, 1995, the tank of senior lieutenant Sulimenko, supporting the advancing units, broke through to the presidential palace in the center of Grozny, inflicting heavy losses on the militants. From direct hits of grenades, the tank got damaged and lost its course. The Dudayevites who surrounded the car offered the crew to surrender. In response, the tankers fired point-blank, inflicting heavy losses on the enemy. The stationary tank was shaken by new hits, the car caught fire, but the return fire did not stop. Sulimenko was seriously injured - his legs were broken, severe concussion was received, a significant part of the body surface and his face received severe burns. In this condition, the commander was pulled out of the tank by a driver-mechanic, foreman Viktor Velichko, and rendered him adequate medical assistance. After the tank explosion Velichko pulled the commander first to the nearest ruins, and then carried it through an unfamiliar city, crowded with militants to the location of Russian troops.

    By the decree of the President of the Russian Federation of May 15, 1995, for the courage and heroism shown in the performance of military duty, the senior lieutenant Sulimenko Yuri Gennadievich was awarded the title of Hero of the Russian Federation with the award of the Golden Star medal. By the same decree, the foreman Viktor Velichko was awarded the title of Hero of the Russian Federation.

    I think not only the armor should be strong, but also the one who sits behind the armor with an iron heart.
    But do the Amers and the Israelis have such ????
    1. Professor
      Professor 14 May 2013 10: 44
      -5
      Imagine eating. The facts of heroism were observed even among the bourgeoisie. About the American, I even laid out an article.
      1. ed65b
        ed65b 14 May 2013 11: 58
        +3
        Examples in the studio.
        1. Professor
          Professor 14 May 2013 12: 07
          -3
          Is it too lazy to check? Heroes are not our war
          I will not write about the Israeli.
          1. ed65b
            ed65b 14 May 2013 13: 21
            +7
            Jews who showed heroism during the Second World War and across the river end as soon as they move to Israel. whether the heat affects them that way, or simply the best ones stayed here and there are only losers.
            1. Professor
              Professor 14 May 2013 17: 52
              0
              Another reasoning slogans. Enemies have heroes, there were heroes both among Arabs and Georgians 8.8.8.
              And to present lists of heroes of the Soviet Union of Jewish nationality?
          2. ed65b
            ed65b 14 May 2013 13: 29
            +4

            Meyer is the 86 th living holder of the Order of Honor and he joins a small, elite group of heroes.

            I will give you such heroes in 5 minutes. and this is only 100 company, and if you take it all the time, rest gentlemen of the bourgeoisie.
            1. gizz
              gizz 14 May 2013 17: 35
              +1
              We have sozh. almost everyone is a hero. The bourgeoisie have cases of heroism, too, but counting them is enough for the fingers.
            2. Professor
              Professor 14 May 2013 17: 53
              0
              Quote: ed65b
              I will give you such heroes in 5 minutes

              Come on, kid, not a balabol.
              wink
              1. gizz
                gizz 14 May 2013 19: 05
                +1
                There is such a site: "Heroes of the Country". There are many of them. Unfortunately, many posthumously
  • Prapor Afonya
    Prapor Afonya 14 May 2013 10: 43
    +4
    Quote: Spade
    Well then, your statements that "we have suffered with torsions" are just fairy tales. It is necessary to justify the frankly outdated suspension installed on the "Merkavas".

    You don’t even argue with the professor, he is now scratching a point in his blood for Jewish technology (and for all Western technology), for him everything Soviet is bad!
    1. Professor
      Professor 14 May 2013 10: 46
      14
      Quote: Prapor Afonya
      for him everything Soviet is bad!

      Why are you lying? Where did I write this? I will kill anyone for my favorite Ka-52 helicopter.
      1. Sanok8711
        Sanok8711 14 May 2013 11: 33
        +3
        For the Ka-52, I smiled at the factory where they make them, the helicopter is certainly awesome ... about a huge collection of photos of Syrian tanks, but you can take a photo))) and then I was here alone, I only collected video)) and then it turned out that the tanks were without DZ))) and then finally get scared, they turned out to be horrifying EXPORT !!!! and again the HORROR there is not only DZ export, there the reservation is lower !!!!!
        1. Professor
          Professor 14 May 2013 11: 54
          0
          He collected everything from Ossetia too. There seems to be only export ones.
          1. leon-iv
            leon-iv 14 May 2013 12: 01
            +2
            He collected everything from Ossetia too. There seems to be only export ones.

            Are you talking about those who were shot at the crossroads?
            And if it’s cheated, then the T-72Sim is a remake of the T-72M which is Again the Export version of the 72 T-1979A Guards
          2. Sanok8711
            Sanok8711 14 May 2013 12: 29
            +2
            What did we know in Ossetia? On Sim, too, harm was done by specialists from the inhabited land), you’ll probably take photos from Syria, or unfounded, as it turns out, they threw the ruffles mercenary, and judging by the stories on your computer, they’re already on the cooler record
          3. Sanok8711
            Sanok8711 14 May 2013 12: 40
            +3
            Comrade, under the nickname Professor, give the promised gigabytes of photo documentation to the studio please ... because you only get this from Troll
      2. abc_alex
        abc_alex 14 May 2013 12: 23
        12
        Then be SEQUENTIAL. I do not hint at the sweeping praise of everything Soviet, but at least try to maintain objectivity.

        T-72 - a tank of large-scale production, a machine of mass tank armies, designed for war conditions in Europe and Asia, and even with a high probability of the use of WMD.
        Merkava, in all her incarnations, is a one-piece tank of narrow production under a limited theater of operations.

        You collect a collection of lined T-72s and consider a rare picture of lined Merkava, so respected, Merkava itself is a rarity :). Compare, only in the USSR for the period from 1974 to 1992, about 30 000 T-72 tanks. And Merkav, up to and including the third for all years, is about 1300. This is 23 times less. And this I still do not take into account the licensed production of the T-72.

        I also remind you that the lightest Merkava is 10 tons heavier (and if you subtract the mass of T-72 from the mass of M4, you get almost T-34), and I would beware to classify them in the same class of vehicles. Comparison of the T-72 with the M3 really gives a comparison of the T-34 and T-VI.
        1. Professor
          Professor 14 May 2013 14: 32
          -5
          Compare, only in the USSR for the period from 1974 to 1992, about 30 T-000 tanks were produced. And Merkav, up to and including the third for all years, is about 72. This is 1300 times less. And this I still do not take into account the licensed production of the T-23.

          Do we compare production capacities? What is the difference how many tanks were produced and stored? Compare how many took part in hostilities.

          Quote: abc_alex
          I also remind you that the lightest Merkava is 10 tons heavier (and if you subtract the mass of T-72 from the mass of M4, you get almost T-34), and I would beware to classify them in the same class of vehicles. Comparison of the T-72 with the M3 really gives a comparison of the T-34 and T-VI.

          Strange statement. Type T-72 is worse protected because it is lighter. So add as much protection as you need, the tanker doesn’t care what the tank is called — he needs to complete the task and stay alive.
          1. abc_alex
            abc_alex 20 May 2013 13: 35
            +1
            In your discussion, you rely on the number of photos on the network. So I hinted to you that for an adequate comparison you need to multiply the number of photos of the hit Merkav by at least 23. :)

            Distort and not very skillfully.
            You were told a T-72 tank for another war and a completely different concept. This is a war tank using WMD in the form of tactical and strategic nuclear weapons, as well as chemical munitions. This is a tank of combined arms operations of the scale of divisions and armies. It is not intended for action alone. Next to it must be BMP and SZU, and behind it self-propelled guns. Above it are planes and support helicopters.

            And the modern Merkava is essentially a super-heavy infantry fighting vehicle, replacing several vehicles and designed for the highly specific purposes of waging a counterguerrilla war.


            The phrase "the tanker doesn't care" is demagoguery. You understand perfectly well that it is impossible to hang 72 tons of armor on the T-23. :) You also understand perfectly well that the WAYS of achieving goals are radically different for the T-72 and Merkava concepts. And the T-72 simply SHOULD NOT be where the Merkava SHOULD fit.
      3. abc_alex
        abc_alex 14 May 2013 12: 23
        +3
        Then be SEQUENTIAL. I do not hint at the sweeping praise of everything Soviet, but at least try to maintain objectivity.

        T-72 - a tank of large-scale production, a machine of mass tank armies, designed for war conditions in Europe and Asia, and even with a high probability of the use of WMD.
        Merkava, in all her incarnations, is a one-piece tank of narrow production under a limited theater of operations.

        You collect a collection of lined T-72s and consider a rare picture of lined Merkava, so respected, Merkava itself is a rarity :). Compare, only in the USSR for the period from 1974 to 1992, about 30 000 T-72 tanks. And Merkav, up to and including the third for all years, is about 1300. This is 23 times less. And this I still do not take into account the licensed production of the T-72.

        I also remind you that the lightest Merkava is 10 tons heavier (and if you subtract the mass of T-72 from the mass of M4, you get almost T-34), and I would beware to classify them in the same class of vehicles. Comparison of the T-72 with the M3 really gives a comparison of the T-34 and T-VI.
      4. pensioner
        pensioner 14 May 2013 13: 19
        +1
        Quote: Professor
        I will kill anyone for my favorite Ka-52 helicopter.

        Start Professor, start ...
  • Prapor Afonya
    Prapor Afonya 14 May 2013 10: 58
    +1
    I would also like to recall a case (although not only a tank is described here, but rather a joint action of the tank and the mechvod) 08.08.08/72/XNUMX, the war in Georgia, Sergei Mylnikov, one XNUMX dispersed the group of Georgian-American forces !!!
  • Prapor Afonya
    Prapor Afonya 14 May 2013 10: 59
    +4
    I would also like to recall a case (although not only a tank is described here, but rather a joint action of the tank and the mechvod) 08.08.08/72/XNUMX, the war in Georgia, Sergei Mylnikov, one XNUMX dispersed the group of Georgian-American forces !!!
  • Sanok8711
    Sanok8711 14 May 2013 11: 28
    +5
    For the Ka-52, I smiled at the factory where they make them, the helicopter is certainly awesome ... about a huge collection of photos of Syrian tanks, but you can take a photo))) and then I was here alone, I only collected video)) and then it turned out that the tanks were without DZ))) and then finally get scared, they turned out to be horrifying EXPORT !!!! and again the HORROR there is not only DZ export, there the reservation is lower !!!!!
  • ed65b
    ed65b 14 May 2013 11: 59
    12
    In the battles of the first Chechen war since April 1995, the gunner-operator of an infantry fighting vehicle. When the militants broke into Grozny on March 8, 1996, the BMP was ambushed by militants and was hit by a grenade launcher shot. Private Yakovlev received a concussion. However, he immediately returned fire and destroyed 4 enemy firing points. Such a decisive rebuff caused the confusion of the militants, thanks to which the soldiers stationed on the armor were able to take up the defense and accept the battle. Alexander Yakovlev himself continued to fire from the burning BMP at the enemy and left it, only having shot all the ammunition. However, immediately after he managed to get out, the BMP exploded. The brave fighter received a new shell shock and wounds. Waking up, he found himself surrounded by militants. He entered with fighters trying to capture him in hand-to-hand combat, in which he managed to destroy two Dudaevites and seize their weapons. About half an hour he fought with captured weapons. With another attempt by the militants to capture a soldier, he died in hand-to-hand combat ... He was buried in the cemetery of the village of Fateevka in the city of Chelyabinsk.

    By decree of the President of the Russian Federation No. 35 of January 22, 1997 for courage and heroism shown in the performance of military duty, ordinary Viktor Yakovlev was posthumously awarded the title of Hero of the Russian Federation.

    This is the professor.
    1. gizz
      gizz 14 May 2013 16: 39
      0
      The American writes about the same thing. People fight, and weapons only help them.
    2. pensioner
      pensioner 14 May 2013 22: 08
      0
      It is impossible to even imagine a modern Jew at this place. Why fight? Surrendered, and then they will exchange you. Just business!
  • rudolff
    rudolff 14 May 2013 12: 08
    +1
    I didn't quite understand the logic of the article. It seems to start with the survivability due to the technical characteristics of the machines, and all examples boil down to the excellent work of dynamic protection, which can be hung anywhere, provided that the protected plane is sufficiently armor-proof. In the examples given, almost all hits from RPGs or ATGMs were reflected by remote sensing. Or attachments have caused a premature detonation of shaped charges (empty tanks or boxes with spare parts in other cases). Where there were no DZ or other "obstacles" (hatch, engine compartment), the armor was successfully pierced and the crew was not injured, this is luck! Survival is the weakest "link" of our vehicles and it is for this very reason that a new tank platform has been developed. For all other characteristics, the technique is very decent and with sufficient modernization potential. An example of this is the T-90MS. It’s even a shame that they don’t see him in combat units.
    1. Sanok8711
      Sanok8711 14 May 2013 12: 22
      +1
      Tank survivability and armor resistance are slightly different concepts, survivability of tanks or any military equipment is just characterized by the ability to maintain combat effectiveness in case of critical damage.
      T-72B is a tank with a mounted DZ, which is an integral part of the tank systems, so to speak, it’s possible to get to the point where the firepower of the tank if everything is done by a gun or what’s the reliability of the tank if everything is done by transmission and transmission))
    2. kot11180
      kot11180 14 May 2013 12: 58
      +1
      In this case, survivability is the weakest "link" of all tanks, or are there tanks whose hatches will not be penetrated by RPGs? or those in which, upon penetration, the crew remains invulnerable?
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Sanok8711
    Sanok8711 14 May 2013 13: 04
    0
    Survivability - the ability of a technical device, structure, means or system to perform its main functions, despite the damage received.
    For example, the survivability of a vessel can be understood as its ability to stay afloat and not lose stability in the event of flooding of one or more compartments due to damage to the hull. "Nevertheless, the tank under its own power with the engine crankcase broken from below (!), Went another 300 m at high speed and took refuge in the next street, to the location of our troops. There the crew stopped the car and quickly left it." that's what survivability is. Read carefully ... don’t talk about M1A2. Writing how they pulled an auxiliary power unit from the guns and the tank remained there forever or if they themselves find this difference in survivability, the T-80 has it much lower, although the tank is perfect ..
    1. kot11180
      kot11180 14 May 2013 13: 38
      +1
      "Nevertheless, the tank under its own power with the engine crankcase broken from below (!), Went another 300 m at high speed and took refuge in the next street, to the location of our troops. There the crew stopped the car and quickly left it." that's exactly the survivability of OUR tanks, and where did you get the idea that the T-80's survivability is lower than that of the M1A2, open the question
      1. bodka_3
        bodka_3 15 May 2013 01: 03
        0
        Probably Sanok8711 meant regarding the T-72
        1. Sanok8711
          Sanok8711 15 May 2013 03: 00
          +1
          Yes, that’s it, again survivability and armor resistance are two different things !!! A tank can get at least 10 breakthroughs and leave after completing the BZ, or it can get 20 not breakthroughs and the last breakthrough, and stay there at best until evacuation. This is from the opera, which is better than M16 or AK. The accuracy and ergonomics of the M16 are better, but when it falls from a height of 2 floors, it does not shoot, but the AK shoots. In general, a good tank is not a big gun and 3 meters of armor, it is the golden mean in at least 20 positions. Why is the T-34 the best tank 2 of the world. You mean he tore Panther to pieces? Well, the last question, what are the losses of the main losses of panthers on the eastern front?
  • rudolff
    rudolff 14 May 2013 13: 59
    +1
    Sanok8711, do not distort and go into theory, where this is not necessary. In the context of this article, survival is considered as the resistance of the tank to fire damage by the enemy. And the mounted DZ blocks are not at all integral structural elements. And in the first and second Chechen companies, the equipment was not always properly covered by DZ blocks. Sometimes they did not exist at all, sometimes they were mounted selectively, due to their shortage, and it often happened that DZ blocks were placed without explosives. Not from a good life, of course. And the fact that the tank passed three hundred meters with a broken case is an indicator? This is not surprising. Any engine for some time will work without oil.
    1. Sanok8711
      Sanok8711 15 May 2013 02: 48
      +1
      I do not know where it is written in the context of what, but in the Russian text in white the defeat of the elements of the systems and the consequences are written. I don’t know who you are by education, but I think any locksmith will say that the engine is a broken lump. with a jet without oil at a speed of 20-30 km / h 300 m it was difficult to drive on a caterpillar track, you can’t even troll, the KAMAZ 6460 drove a traffic jam and drove 100 m at a speed of 90 km, DZ for T-72B this protection system is integral to it, Do not believe me, come in and see how the T-72 differs from the T-72B, if there was no DZ or BB there is a story about a non-refueling fire extinguishing system. On the T-90MS or on the same mercans, it is they who work out the cumulative charges, only they are located differently.
  • Scandinavian
    Scandinavian 14 May 2013 14: 13
    +1
    My opinion is the best example of the invulnerability of the T-72 tank on the example of Syria. After all, how many videos have been reviewed where it is clearly visible that the Mujahidin’s RPGs and Cornets with Bassoons do not take our armor. Of course, there are exceptions, but the skillful hands of Syrian tankers make them more and more invulnerable. The reinforcement around the tower in the form of a ruffle, as well as additional side screens, all help in a real battle.
  • lazy
    lazy 14 May 2013 15: 17
    +9
    I won’t be able to post one such video, survivability is at its height. But the organization of the battle raises questions such an impression that the tanks are alone in the city without the support of infantry.
    1. Canep
      Canep 14 May 2013 17: 03
      +3
      As I understand from the head T-72 (just) there were 3 hits, and after 2 hits, he still continued the fight, and after the third the record was cut off. Yes, and these Mujahideen zadolbali with their "Alah Akbar".
    2. gizz
      gizz 14 May 2013 17: 18
      +1
      Approximately in the middle you can see how the infantry is hiding behind the tanks.
      1. Argon
        Argon 15 May 2013 00: 03
        +1
        This is the operator of the padded car. It fastens the cable. In general, there a piece is cut out in the middle.
    3. gizz
      gizz 14 May 2013 17: 27
      +1
      It seems that the words of praise of Allah are used by the creatures to replace "ku" and "kyu".
    4. kot11180
      kot11180 14 May 2013 18: 00
      +2
      notice that they are even without dynamic protection, but were not knocked out
    5. Aleks tv
      Aleks tv 14 May 2013 18: 14
      +3
      Quote: lazy
      survivability at height


      And this is one of the first modifications, on which security testing has just begun. If I am not mistaken in the video "object 172" in export modification with a simplified MSA, optical rangefinder and WITHOUT secret bells and whistles in the armor.
    6. neri73-r
      neri73-r 14 May 2013 18: 17
      +1
      And notice those without DZ are fighting !!! The tanks are old, and the terrorists' defeat is modern!
  • Svyatoslavovich
    Svyatoslavovich 14 May 2013 16: 08
    +8
    Goebels propaganda also shouted about the unsurpassed and invulnerability of the German tigers, just as the Merkavs and Abrams are now touting, but everyone remembers the result of the tigers ’confrontation with our tanks)))
  • fzr1000
    fzr1000 14 May 2013 16: 16
    0
    From google here



  • fzr1000
    fzr1000 14 May 2013 16: 20
    +2
    More from Google
  • fzr1000
    fzr1000 14 May 2013 16: 23
    +1
    More from Google
    1. Professor
      Professor 14 May 2013 17: 57
      -2
      What are you saying? Is there an inlet and no outlet? Did the side fly off? Did the engine burn out? What’s more interesting in Google? wink
      1. fzr1000
        fzr1000 14 May 2013 22: 33
        +1
        I have the same in Google as yours ....
  • Mister X
    Mister X 14 May 2013 16: 33
    +4


    That sneezed - so sneezed ...
  • Strashila
    Strashila 14 May 2013 16: 45
    12
    We must pay tribute to the West know how to boast. Soviet and Russian equipment proved its survivability ... Iraq, what did each destroyed tank cost? India, continues to purchase Russian equipment ... it met their expectations completely, Syria there technology was faced with the most modern anti-tank weapons in difficult urban conditions ... shows itself at its best. When Westerners examine the tank, measure the thickness of the armor, the caliber of the guns, evaluate the optics ... they quietly miss the one that without various kinds of additional support systems for reconnaissance and control, escort of infantry and artillery, their tank is a piece of iron, even in a place with a trained crew. He is not able to conduct an individual battle too, he is tied to number and space ... take a Russian tank ... whether it is Chechnya or Syria, the crew actually conducts an individual battle in a mountain or city building ... and emerges victorious without additional frills, they’re like there are those on the machine ... they simply do not work there. Limited visibility, shielding radio communications, attacks from all directions ... yes, the boasted Abrams were not in such an environment ... they were burned in simpler conditions, and Russian equipment passed and survived by destroying the enemy.
  • Mister X
    Mister X 14 May 2013 16: 46
    +7
    A joke, of course. But in every joke ...

    The author of the article documented
    survivability of domestic tanks.
  • Aleks tv
    Aleks tv 14 May 2013 16: 46
    30
    It’s a pity that I could not immediately participate in the discussion, work, you know.
    And no one notices that the article is about the T-72, and are we again discussing Carrot in the discussion? The professor, as always, deftly translated the topic into a channel favorable to him, and you are being carried on ... eheh.
    They always stick out our problems, and the good, like this article, is hushed up.

    Quote: Professor
    Hundreds of dead tankers cannot share their experience.


    Careful with such statements, for them it’s possible to rake them off altogether.
    You are always interesting to read, but pliz, do not go beyond. I don’t think yours will like such statements. Do not mess with death.
    .......

    It’s a pity that I don’t see tankers: where is “Sparrow”, where is “Old Tanker”, where are the others?
    The units of those who said in the case, the rest is again the know-it-all reasoning .... It's a pity.

    I said and again I repeat:
    We were SURE in our T-72B. And it was not blind faith, but knowledge, cold calculation and preparation. Our superior commanders disturbed us only in terms of tactics and the use of our “turtles”.

    And dressed and shod by all the rules of the T-72, oh, how hard it is to break through. Already got statements about the carousel AZ and MZ under the crew ... good parrots to repeat what is written on the fence is not you. It’s hard to get there. You need to disfigure the rollers or knock down the screen before that. Not from a good life, the Czechs from the upper floors pounded precisely on the hatches, because, I repeat: it is difficult to break through the T-72, dressed and shod by all the rules. And, oddly enough, it is precisely the version of the T-72B that is in the photographs. The elements of remote sensing, criticized in the future, held the blow very well, changed easily and, most importantly, they covered the forehead, the side of the hull and the entire (!!!) tower with a solid carpet, and not later, on the field of later modifications. Not closed places covered the boxes of spare parts.

    About T-72:
    - firepower, security, mobility at the highest level. We were not afraid of hell, but only within reasonable limits. The tasks were carried out by the most idiotic.
    - unpretentiousness in service is UNIQUE. Cars for months worked on wear and tear and were combat-ready.
    - For reliability, I’ll also say the minus, which I already said: you need a thermal imager and a stabilized panoramic view to the commander. Coded communication and preferably management from within the NSWT.

    In my opinion, a tanker has more than 10 years of experience: the T-72B is a real workhorse. A killer hammer breaking a ridge to any opponent.
    Competent tactics of using these machines and a well-trained crew - this is what you need to win on them.
    1. kot11180
      kot11180 14 May 2013 17: 33
      +4
      Professor listen, stop collecting photos, listen to people
      1. Professor
        Professor 14 May 2013 18: 00
        +2
        In general, I am a lover of military equipment, and not all politics. I always listen to people who understand and know, I read books and look at photos.
  • ed65b
    ed65b 14 May 2013 16: 47
    +7
    There are no impenetrable tanks. all burn only with different intensities. Czechs, Merkav and Abrams in the formidable would have landed no less than Tesek.
  • Mister X
    Mister X 14 May 2013 17: 23
    +9
    Interestingly, Abramchik will pass here?
  • inbous
    inbous 14 May 2013 17: 58
    +3
    http://clck.ru/8eGTV


    Merkava vs. Cornet-E
    1. gizz
      gizz 14 May 2013 18: 48
      +2
      Okay, the Cornet got into the Merkava. And what are the consequences? It's a pity that there are no photos or, at least, descriptions.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 14 May 2013 19: 21
        +1
        It doesn't have to be "Cornet". It hurts a lot at the stern of the rocket
      2. Genady1976
        Genady1976 14 May 2013 19: 24
        0
        see further consequences
  • ed65b
    ed65b 14 May 2013 18: 46
    +1
    Good article, good comments. And the discussion is a good plus for everyone.
  • MAG
    MAG 14 May 2013 18: 58
    +2
    So, for example, the T-90S has already managed to show itself perfectly in tank battles on the Indo-Pakistani border. The question is, when did they fight or did I miss something?
    1. Professor
      Professor 14 May 2013 21: 32
      0
      We didn’t miss it, we’ve already discussed it before.
  • Genady1976
    Genady1976 14 May 2013 19: 18
    0
    here entih few
  • Boricello
    Boricello 14 May 2013 19: 26
    +7
    Mr. professor. I'm not going to dispute the fact that Merkava is a good tank. This is an indisputable truth, but with one stretch, Merkava is a tank capable of conducting full-fledged military operations only at your theater of operations, and no more and that is preferably from a great distance and even better from an ambush. Merkava is probably one of the best crew protection, but that’s all. In a maneuvering battle with a competent opponent, you will be smashed to the nines and feathers. You are incredibly lucky that the Arabs are not warriors. You would face the Chechens and even in urban conditions or in mountain gorges and not in your hills. Here tady oh would be a big deal with the mercans. With their congestion, there would be good bonfires.
    1. Scythian 35
      Scythian 35 14 May 2013 19: 57
      -6
      With what competent opponent !!! ???? The Syrian, Egyptian and Jordanian army with 17000 Soviet advisers is a competent enemy for you or not ??? What are you about !!! What Chechens ??? Israel has its own "Chechnya" since 1949 every day, on every street, in the mountains and in the desert, and rain and heat, day and night.

      Your limitation scares me !!!
      1. Genady1976
        Genady1976 14 May 2013 20: 18
        +1
        RPG-7 and marking have no chance.
        1. Professor
          Professor 14 May 2013 21: 35
          -2
          Chances of what?
          1. Genady1976
            Genady1976 14 May 2013 22: 12
            +1
            And this is what you showed
            1. Professor
              Professor 14 May 2013 22: 17
              -2
              The landing of Martians on planet Earth.
              1. Genady1976
                Genady1976 14 May 2013 22: 23
                +1
                And what did I think, I didn’t make out right away. good
      2. Boricello
        Boricello 15 May 2013 04: 46
        +1
        Well, if you think that advisers decide everything and not people ... then maybe I'm limited ... but let's give Korea, Vietnam and Cuba as an example. There were also our advisers, but in different guises. In Korea, the account of downed and lost aircraft by the pilots of the USSR and the Sino-Korean brethren was different at times. Vietnam ... fought the Vietnamese Pts. not bad and competently. This is recognized by the amers themselves. You can’t talk about a cube at all. Striped taim got at most do not indulge. So frames decide everything. And if they recalled Egypt ... then it was mainly Israeli airplanes that shot down (the aircraft of which I consider one of the best in training) and in general I do not suffer from cap-bombing and I perfectly understand that the Israeli army is strong and prepared. But I also do not feel the Arabs with the illusion of fighting efficiency.
    2. konstantins5s7e
      konstantins5s7e 15 May 2013 15: 14
      0
      So, for reference, on many Merkavs active protection of the TROPHY type is installed, so that, roughly speaking, “On the drum” for shells, RPGs and the like.
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 14 May 2013 19: 37
    +3
    Excellent working photos of tanks that survived in a real battle. Unfortunately, the PR specialists at the Rosvooruzhenie are not very cool, these photos when selling armored vehicles are a good argument
    1. Genady1976
      Genady1976 14 May 2013 20: 27
      +3
      Quote: xomaNN
      Unfortunately, the PR specialists at the Rosvooruzhenie are not very cool,

      and what our tanks PR and so everyone knows that our tanks are the coolest.
  • sandrmur76
    sandrmur76 14 May 2013 20: 30
    +1
    The performance characteristics of tanks is certainly very interesting and you can argue endlessly (I love this topic myself). But this phrase surprised me -
    An important reason for the high survivability of military vehicles was the fact that during the counter-terrorist operation, military operations were well organized and carried out. This allowed timely and high-quality maintenance of tanks and in a short time to repair equipment that received combat damage. It seemed to me that I was not an earthman belay
  • My doctor
    My doctor 14 May 2013 20: 31
    0
    Quote: old man54
    And here is the realization that there are such people sitting in the tanks that they can do nothing, unlike the amers, that they probably have nerves made of tank steel and made NATO tankers run to the toilets and nearby gates to change their underwear, which by that time they already had it in full, in full! :))

    correctly said
  • roial
    14 May 2013 20: 38
    -2
    As a positive)