Military Review

How Ivan Kozhedub Americans shot down

277
Toward the end of the Second World War, the best Soviet asu had to give a flying lesson to the presumptuous “allies” twice.


Kozhedub replenished his combat score with two American fighter jets F-51 Mustang, who mistakenly tried to attack him over Berlin, but were immediately shot down while repelling the attack. As Ivan Nikitovich himself told me, 17 of April 1945 of the year, having met the “Flying Fortresses” of the allies in the air, he withdrew a couple of “Messerschmitts” away from them, but after a second he himself was attacked by American fighter jets.

How Ivan Kozhedub Americans shot down

“To whom of the fire? Me?!” Kozhedub recalled indignantly half a century later. “The queue was long, with a long, one kilometer, distance, with bright ones, unlike our and German tracer shells. Because of the long distance, you could see the end the queue is bent down. I rolled over and, quickly moving closer, attacked the extreme American (by the number of fighters in the escort, I already knew who it was) - something exploded in his fuselage, he strongly steamed up and went with a decrease in the direction of our troops. reversal I attacked the next one. My shells lay down very well - the plane exploded in the air ...

When the tension of the battle subsided, my mood was not at all victorious - I had already managed to make out the white stars on the wings and fuselages. "They will arrange for me ... by the first number," I thought, putting the car down. But everything turned out In the cockpit "Mustang", landed on our territory, sat a hefty Negro. To the question of the guys who came to him, who had knocked him down (or rather, when this question could be translated), he answered: “Focke-Wulf” with a red nose ... I do not think he played along; even then the allies did not learn to look in both ...

When the PCF films were shown, the main points of the battle were fixed on them very clearly. The films were watched by the regimental command, divisions, and corps. The division commander, Savitsky, to whom we then entered into operational subordination, after watching, said: "These victories are in the account of a future war." And Pavel Fyodorovich Chupikov, our regiment commander, soon gave me these tapes with the words: "Take them to yourself, Ivan, and do not show it to anyone."


Although the future marshal to the front aviation Ivan Nikitich Kozhedub only got in 1943, his combat score looks impressive. For two years - 366 sorties on a mission, 120 air battles and 62 shot down German planes, despite the fact that Kozhedub himself was not shot down at once. Moreover, from the publications of recent years it is clear that the real list of victories of the Soviet ace is even more impressive. The vicious principles of "socialist collectivism" often forced the best pilots to share their victories with less capable comrades, and as a result, the fuselage of the La-7 fighter at number 27 turned out to have far fewer red stars than expected. This was written by fellow Ivan Nikitich, the illustrious test pilot Alexander Shcherbakov, and a number of other authors, however, the topic has not yet been seriously researched. However, according to some reports, Kozhedub shot down not 62, but as many as 107 enemy aircraft, five of which belonged to the US Air Force.

The clashes between the Soviet and American air groups, which began in the second half of 1944, were not the result of a confusion that was traditional for any war. Even then, the States considered the entire European continent their zone of influence. Once, the commander of the US Air Force Spats even defiantly refused to discuss with Marshal Zhukov the procedure for flying over the Soviet zone, impudently declaring that "American aircraft flew everywhere, and flew without any restrictions." (G.K.Zhukov. Memories and reflections. M., 1971. C.670).

Demonstrating its right to fly anywhere, the US command at the same time tested ours for lice, and also worked out methods of total air terror, which became the hallmark of American aviation in the coming decades. Few people know that, along with the militarily pointless destruction of the residential quarters of the German and Japanese cities, the Yankees no less fiercely bombed Yugoslavia. The bloody Easter of 16 on April 1944 marked the beginning of the air genocide. On this day, a whole air division of heavy bombers with the characteristic name Liberator (Liberator) launched thousands of bombs on Yugoslav cities, from which only 1 thousand 160 people died in Belgrade. There were nine such raids in all, and after 45 years история, as you know, repeated. And in order to emphasize the conscious choice of the date of the blows, the bombs falling on Belgrade were decorated with the inscription "Happy Easter!"


Well, for the first attack on the Red Army four dozen heavy American fighter "Lightning" also chose a symbolic date - November 7 1944 of the year. As a result of the storming of the 6 headquarters of the Guards Rifle Corps and the airfield of the 866 Fighter Aviation Regiment near the city of Nis, Corps Commander Hero of the Soviet Union Grigory Kotov and another 30 man died. In addition, two of our aircraft were destroyed and a dozen cars were burned down. Only when Soviet fighters soared, in turn, shot down several vultures, the rest fled. Subsequently, the witness of this battle, the pilot Boris Smirnov, wrote in his memoirs that on the map found in the wreckage of one of the Lightnings shot down, Niš was marked as an aerial target. After that, few people believed the official American version of the loss of the course.

The deputy commander of 176 of the Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment, who flew over Germany, 25-year-old Major Kozhedub encountered brazen “allies” twice. First 22 on April 1945, his car was attacked by a pair of American fighters of the Mustang type, but soon they had to regret bitterly. Less than two minutes, as one of the "Mustangs" scattered into pieces, and the second pilot barely managed to jump with a parachute.

Kozhedub survived an even hotter battle with the Americans just before Victory Day, when a squadron of Flying Fortress bombers loaded to the eyeballs, ignoring warning shots, entered the space of the Soviet occupation zone. Having driven three multi-motor giants into the ground, the major put the others to flight, but they were not allowed to include them in the official list of their victories. The regiment commander Pavel Chupikov just joked that he would have to fight with the Americans very soon, and on the very first day of the next war, their downed cars would be credited back to his account.

However, when the commander of one of the 64 divisions of the air corps, Major General Kozhedub, attacked US squadrons that were clearing the way for the UN peacekeepers in Korea, no new stars appeared on his plane. Moscow categorically forbade the division commander to participate in the battles, and therefore all 264 destroyed enemy aircraft should be attributed to the students of Ivan Nikitich.
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  1. StolzSS
    StolzSS 14 May 2013 07: 26
    81
    Well, then we know that he failed them. Well, well done, man did everything right, more than the Yankees would have driven into the ground, maybe there would have been less harm from them :)
    1. Sakhalininsk
      Sakhalininsk 14 May 2013 10: 02
      60
      We know even more. Kozhedub, Pokryshkin, Sultan, Safonov and many others, unlike the greenery and other Goering’s favorites, did not come up with their own score and each victory required real confirmation.
      1. Argon
        Argon 14 May 2013 12: 34
        27 th
        I apologize, but you dear Sakhalinets could not help refreshing the topic of the question. Then you can put the names in a different order, and add the missing ones. Yes, and with the Germans, not everything is so simple.
        1. Sakhalininsk
          Sakhalininsk 14 May 2013 15: 09
          34
          Quote: Argon
          I apologize, but you dear Sakhalinets could not help refreshing the topic of the question. Then you can put the names in a different order, and add the missing ones. Yes, and with the Germans, not everything is so simple.


          I didn’t even keep in my thoughts to exalt or belittle the merits of the Soviet aces, I simply listed the first names that came to my mind. And with Hans, everything is clear if you look at the German data on air victories, then they shot down more planes on the eastern front than the USSR issued and bought from submarines and shavers.
          1. We fought, we know
            We fought, we know 20 May 2013 01: 13
            -1
            And the planes of Poland, France, Britain no longer count? You delve into the essence of the matter, and then write your opus. You’ll be smarter. You’ll write such a story about M. Wittmann and his 132 tanks and 138 self-propelled guns, Sergeant E. Mausberg knocked out 53 tanks, and the best result of Soviet tankers is 52, and more than half of them are light PzI and BTR tanks
            1. medvedron
              medvedron 20 October 2017 10: 14
              +1
              So yes, apparently this "Ass" has pounded some KV and SU-152. Stop writing x ... nude.
        2. Alex
          Alex 25 August 2013 23: 24
          +4
          Yes, the Snemies are just all quite unambiguous. Even Goering in 1943 yelled at the headquarters of some air fleet (in my opinion, on the Kursk Bulge): "All your victories are greatly exaggerated!"
      2. pensioner
        pensioner 14 May 2013 12: 37
        19
        Quote: Sakhalininets
        We know even more. Kozhedub, Pokryshkin, Sultan, Safonov and many others, unlike the greenery and other Goering’s favorites, did not come up with their own score and each victory required real confirmation.

        The Novosibirsk comrades meticulously checked the data on the shot down Pokryshkin. Conclusion: at least 120. Moreover, almost excluding 41g. Documents not saved.
        1. Argon
          Argon 14 May 2013 17: 33
          20
          My dear Sakhaliners and Pensioners are not harmful: I am very sorry that even after the remarks, the rhetoric does not change, and what comes up in my memory suggests that an understanding of the merits and deeds of specific people has not been formed in the mind. pistol number 1 Alexander Ivanovich himself is unforgettable, with a reservation he counted from 90 to 100, but if the Novosibirsk comrades, who meticulously checked, think 120, then we will write it off on the modesty of ASa. For the sake of truth, it is worth saying that colleagues believed that only personal from 150 to 160. his merit is not even in the development of tactics that were new for those times, but in its implementation, when at first he had to say NO to the bosses, then explain and prove HOW IT IS NECESSARY (and they didn’t like it) at the risk of becoming a "saboteur" a "coward" or even " traitor ". Kozhedub IN. 62 victory was the first in the Red Army Air Force to shoot down a jet fighter; Gulaev N.D. 57 Victory was promoted to the rank of three GSS; Rechkalov G. A. 56 victory; Safonov B. F. Personality comparable in scale and merit to Pokryshkin, I cannot give exact data on the shot down from 12 to 20; Fadeev V.I. 17 the most productive pilot on the "Airacobra" won. I repeat that with the Germans everything is not unambiguous. According to the strategy of the German Air Force, the pilots had on average more sorties, more battles, respectively more number of victories.By the way, dear ones, I have more comments below, do not forget to put a minus there too. wink
          1. pensioner
            pensioner 14 May 2013 19: 51
            +2
            [quote = Argon] Alexander Ivanovich himself was unforgettable, with a reservation he counted from 90 to 100, but if the Novosibirsk comrades, meticulously checked, consider 120 then we will write this on the modesty of the AC. It’s for the sake of saying that co-workers thought that only personal from 150 to 160 [ / quote]
            Who would doubt that. And among those who checked there were Oh-o_ very serious historians. Novosibirsk branch of the RAS. (It’s easy to find in the internet. I spoke directly with them. Source study - I have no doubt that you know). Speech and children about ironically confirmed

            [quote = Argon] But his main merit was not even in the development of tactics that were new at that time, but in its implementation, when at first he had to say NO to the authorities, then explain and prove HOW IT IS NECESSARY (and it didn’t like it) at the risk of becoming a "saboteur" " a coward "or even a" traitor ". [/ quote]
            Firstly, it is perfectly described by him in his memoirs. But more than words are spoken by his PICTURES! Look carefully. He sketched ALL shelling sectors (and dead zones) of ALL firing points of ALL available at 43g. German bombers (1 Italian heaps up to the heap). Which of the ordinary pilots did this yet? Correctly. None.

            T-
            1. Argon
              Argon 14 May 2013 21: 54
              +8
              Dear Pensioner, I observe a typical one-sided, flat understanding of the issue, I’ll try to explain it again, mind you, without any of the first and second. Yes, in general, a lot of people painted, wrote, look at least the memoirs of Mark Lazarevich Gallay. necessary. And you try to explain to the regiment com (with a prejudice to him biased towards you) that patrol should not be at 1500m, but with a variable profile from 4500 to 3000m and not 4 cars, but 10-12, and at speeds close to maximum. that the fuel lemite of the regiment will dry up in three days, and not in a month as the division gives (I’m exaggerating the total number of indicators), and then, together with the commissar, knock out this fuel at the division headquarters. How to explain to the army general in anger (did you communicate with generals? they and sober reckless individuals, especially paratroopers), that from the fact that he sees his consumers will not fall over the positions, German bombs will not stop at the same positions. What beavers need to be caught up to positions near their own airfields, or at least over enemy territory, and he will not see Stalin's falcons since they will be high, but they won’t bomb either. And you are the captain in such a conversation. PS: And do not oppose me please, do not waste my and your time in vain.
              1. pensioner
                pensioner 15 May 2013 07: 13
                +2
                Quote: Argon
                PS: And do not oppose me please, do not waste my and your time in vain.

                Hmm ... I wiped myself off and left ...
          2. pensioner
            pensioner 14 May 2013 22: 10
            +1
            Quote: Argon
            minus put do not forget.

            Sure, not a problem! Contact!
            1. pensioner
              pensioner 15 May 2013 07: 12
              0
              Quote: retired
              Sure, not a problem! Contact!

              Actually, I was joking. Anyway...
          3. Alex
            Alex 25 August 2013 23: 29
            +2
            Read. Let’s think it over. We deliver.
            Do not forget, do not hesitate.
          4. medvedron
            medvedron 20 October 2017 10: 20
            +1
            Tovarisch, you apparently forgot that the Germans also read out those planes that they destroyed at the airfields, and ours took only those that went astray. Although this topic is still cooler, very slippery, I personally think that it is worth looking at the final result, namely, on MAY 9, 1945.
        2. Alex
          Alex 25 August 2013 23: 26
          +3
          Wow !!!! I have always believed that the real score of our aces is higher than the official one, but by that much! .. These are really "Stalin's falcons"!
      3. Rink
        Rink 14 May 2013 22: 15
        +9
        Quote: Sakhalininets
        .... unlike the greenery and other Goering’s favorites, they didn’t come up with their own score and each victory required real confirmation.

        Exactly.
        Look here: on a Kozhedub plane in a normal sortie, there was a photo recorder, and the fact of the destruction of the enemy was checked by film.
        For comparison, according to German archival documents that came to us in 1945, the Germans "shot down" more aircraft in the Caucasus direction than we actually had there! And this despite the fact that the number of our aircraft in the air has not become noticeably less ...

        Registration in the German army was practiced as something commonplace. Moreover, not only among the pilots, but also among tankers, artillerymen, snipers, etc. Their command was also not opposed, as this made it possible to submit reports upstairs about the impressive "successes" of their units. It was profitable for everyone: vacations, cash rewards, iron crosses ...

        So the "legends" about the incredible efficiency of the German army were born.
        1. The comment was deleted.
      4. DRUG DRUG
        DRUG DRUG 16 May 2013 08: 22
        +3
        Our pilot was credited with the downed plane after real confirmation and only one pilot. And the Germans had a different system - if a flight took off on a mission and an aircraft was shot down, then it was credited to each pilot from the flight. So it turns out that the Germans had 4 times more for one shot down plane in the reports. Our statistics were honest and dignified, and the Nazis managed to do it here too, but they shouted loudly everywhere about their "aces".
        1. Mairos
          Mairos 16 May 2013 13: 43
          0
          Yeah, there is one of the Fritz, I don’t remember the name, almost five hundred tanks were destroyed on the Junkers. Storyteller,
      5. The comment was deleted.
        1. Kaa
          Kaa 20 May 2013 01: 20
          +4
          Quote: We fought, we know
          Did you know that Pokryshkin began his account of downed planes with the Soviet DB-3
          Well, since you have such a talking nickname, you need to KNOW: "Having perfectly mastered the new car, Alexander was ready for battle, but ... he started the war extremely unsuccessfully - on the very first day shot down the Soviet light bomber Su-2... Here is how he himself describes this episode in the book "The Sky of War": "We are on duty at the planes, ready to take off at any moment ... From the headquarters they said by phone: readiness number one! According to the air observation posts, three nines are going to our airfield enemy bombers ... I start the engine and taxi out ... The bombers pass like a wedge a little to the side of the airfield. Although the sun hits my eyes, I notice that the planes are somehow unfamiliar, even strange: single engine, painted in black and green and yellow spots, the cockpit of the pilot and the navigator - the arrow is connected together. I quickly go on rapprochement with the extreme bomber and give a short burst. I feel that I got it. I turn the plane to the right, up and turn out to be higher than the bombers. I look at them from a height and - Oh God ! - I see red stars on the wings. Ours! I fired mine... The plane attacked by me began to lag behind, went down and sat down in the field on the "stomach" ... What happened to him? ... I will find out about this only a few years later, after the war, when a bomber pilot meets me and tells about the first sorties of his squadron, about our fighter that attacked him ... "This pilot was Ivan Ivanovich Pstygo - Hero of the Soviet Union, future Air Marshal, who started the war as a lieutenant in the 211st close-bomber aviation regiment, and finished it as a major, commander of the 893rd assault aviation regiment. This is how he describes this episode in his book "On the Combat Course": "In the fall of 1940, our regiment was re-equipped with new Su-2 aircraft. On July 21, 1941, I was shot down and" pulled "for 100 km in a burning car. During the war we flew several combat missions. These sorties taught us not only from the mistakes of the enemy - on ours too. Performing one of the missions, we went to the meeting place with our fighters and immediately identified them - they were MiG-3. : there are cover fighters! They, as it seemed to us, take their place in the general battle formation, but suddenly, we see, one "MiG" rushes to our squadron and opens fire. What's the matter? ... The plane of the lead, squadron commander Captain Gudzenko , smoked and went down. I asked the navigator Dameshkin to trace where he would fall or sit down, and the pilot - the fighter, which knocked down Gudzenko, having seen that he attacked his own, began energetically making various evolutions with his war machine, indicating that his bombers were flying. The fighters calmed down and accompanied us to the goal.http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/pokrish2.htm
          PS Only those who do nothing are not mistaken ....
          1. Alex
            Alex 25 August 2013 23: 38
            +2
            And at the end of this story, Alexander Ivanovich wrote: "I did not dare to admit that I was the pilot." Yes, secrecy is not always good.
    2. Sirocco
      Sirocco 14 May 2013 11: 40
      25
      Only when the soaring Soviet fighters in turn shot down several vultures did the rest take flight.
      All this is very reminiscent of modern Americans, 70 years have passed and no change. The same arrogant in the pack, and the same cowardly alone. I recalled a similar story about the Black Sea event with the American Navy in 1988. As one of the participants in those events said, the Americans are not aggressive when they give them a spell, when they see that the situation is not in their favor, they back down.
      1. KamikadZzzE1959
        KamikadZzzE1959 14 May 2013 14: 58
        +7
        Well, they do not like to receive wort!
    3. Maks111
      Maks111 14 May 2013 15: 29
      +7
      There were nine such raids in total, and after 45 years history, as you know, repeated itself. And to emphasize the deliberate choice of the date of the strikes, the bombs falling on Belgrade were adorned with the inscription "Happy Easter!"
      Well, and what does not confirm that all sorts of occult clans rule the states.
      1. vjhbc
        vjhbc 14 May 2013 18: 03
        -3
        what nah-er clans muda-ki young without brains such and we have write such that at least stand even fall
        Quote: Max111
        There were nine such raids in total, and after 45 years history, as you know, repeated itself. And to emphasize the deliberate choice of the date of the strikes, the bombs falling on Belgrade were adorned with the inscription "Happy Easter!"
        Well, and what does not confirm that all sorts of occult clans rule the states.
        1. Maks111
          Maks111 14 May 2013 18: 33
          +9
          what nah-er clans muda-ki young without brains such and we have write such that at least stand even fall
          But the decision on the date of the bombing is not made by "young muda-ki"
      2. Mairos
        Mairos 16 May 2013 13: 47
        -2
        Masons .. maybe masans? wink so in Panov, vampires in books are called)))))
    4. donchepano
      donchepano 15 May 2013 11: 22
      +4
      Quote: StolzSS
      Well, then we know that he failed them.

      it was he who "congratulated" them on Groundhog Day as they were on Easter ..
      There would be more such "holidays" from Kozhedub
    5. Mohomax
      Mohomax 16 May 2013 12: 40
      +3
      Here he is a Hero. It would now be painful for him to read the comments, where respected forum users are arguing with each other about the number of victories of Ivan Kozhedub. He is a real ace in his field, and showed all the planes attacking him the wintering place of the crayfish.
    6. DmitriRazumov
      DmitriRazumov 17 May 2013 20: 12
      0
      Alexander, your nickname is literally translated from German as "SS pride". Please comment.
  2. demon ada
    demon ada 14 May 2013 07: 29
    19
    a story that we do not know.
    maybe you should study this issue more deeply.
    and then some liberalists do not have time to ass lick in the west
    1. lewerlin53rus
      lewerlin53rus 14 May 2013 08: 06
      13
      Quote: demon ada
      a story we do not know

      We do not know much yet, and we will never know more. The book of memoirs by I. Kozhedub was one of my favorites during my school years. There was also a description of the battle with the "allies".
      1. Vladimirets
        Vladimirets 14 May 2013 08: 24
        +6
        It is this case that is thought-provoking, but still attacks by one's own or allies during the war are not such a rare occurrence. By stupidity, gouging or lack of experience. How many times did our aviation work on its own? The Yankees, of course, are arrogant, but I would not blame everything on the black plan. Well, Kozhedub is handsome.
        1. Sirocco
          Sirocco 14 May 2013 11: 50
          15
          You know Eugene, with such allies and partners as the United States and Europe, there is no need to look for enemies.
          1. Mairos
            Mairos 16 May 2013 13: 50
            0
            How can you !? These are "our western partners" !!!
        2. Shkodnik65
          Shkodnik65 14 May 2013 12: 30
          +9
          No, dear! This means that in fact we were never any allies. Neither in the past nor in the present. And in the future - hardly ... No.
          1. SASCHAmIXEEW
            SASCHAmIXEEW 16 May 2013 09: 50
            +3
            If during the war the factories in Germany worked with the Amers for the Germans, they supplied gas for tanks and planes, what kind of alliance should we talk about? And in general, they started a war, the Anglo-Saxons from the submission of zh.dosionisticheskogo money elite sassh and all the evil from this kagala !!!
        3. SASCHAmIXEEW
          SASCHAmIXEEW 16 May 2013 09: 47
          +4
          Black, not black, but intent is traced !!! And after the war, how many plans were there for an attack on the USSR? So a little of them was drenched then !!!
      2. Sirocco
        Sirocco 14 May 2013 11: 47
        13
        I would say so, Kozhedub became a teacher of American pilots, he taught them to fall, and to flee. But how much pathos, and lies about Korea, about the fact that they are Americans who flew in circles, all of a sudden for no reason they began to wet packs of our aces in Korea. Around where the US lies and blood.
        1. Kaa
          Kaa 14 May 2013 15: 18
          12
          Quote: Sirocco
          The Americans who flew in a circle suddenly for no apparent reason began to pack our aces in batches
          "In general, as emphasized by the command of the 64th Iak in the final report to the General Staff of the Soviet Army for the war," active and intense combat operations of the corps fighters from the beginning of hostilities in Korea until the conclusion of the armistice, despite the clear superiority in the US Air Force, did not give them the opportunity to destroy the main covered objects and inflicted significant losses on the enemy in all types of aviation. "The total ratio of losses of the sides during the war was 1: 3,4 in favor of the Soviet Air Force.According to the General Staff of the SA, the pilots of the 64th IAC made 64 sorties during the hostilities, participated in 300 air battles (1872 pilots fired on the enemy) and shot down 6462 planes of the UN troops (including 1106 Saber "). Another 651 enemy aircraft (including 153 "Sabers") were shot down by the corps antiaircraft artillery fire. At the same time, Chinese and North Korean aviation (OVA) flew 40 sorties, participated in 22 air battles and shot down 300 UN aircraft (including 366 Sabers). Soviet data differ significantly from Western sources. According to them, in confrontation
          "MiGs" and "Sabers" the ratio was about 1: 1,5 in favor of the Russian-made MiG-15.http: //www.usinfo.ru/koreja.htm
          Even according to Western sources, Americans have lost more ...about the rest, and there were B-29- do not take into account.
          1. pensioner
            pensioner 14 May 2013 21: 00
            +4
            Quote: Kaa
            Even according to Western sources, the Americans have lost more ... about the rest, and there were B-29s not taken into account ...

            Dear Kaa! Amers themselves pierced once. When everyone was reporting on how they heroically fought in Korea, the pilot rescue service got in the wrong place. Like "Why are we worse? We took ... 000 people from the mainland!" Then they realized: WHAT they wrote. But it was too late ... You can find it on the internet ...
        2. DRUG DRUG
          DRUG DRUG 16 May 2013 08: 36
          +3
          And also the USA and Britain planned to attack the USSR immediately after the war with Germany, in the middle of July 1945, when we were preparing for a war with Japan, fulfilling our allied obligations. These are allies here, they are anchored in * opu. We will never be allies with either the Americans or the British. They have always been our enemies and they cannot be trusted.
          1. SASCHAmIXEEW
            SASCHAmIXEEW 16 May 2013 10: 03
            +1
            I think (and I am certainly an amateur) that in themselves, that amers, that the Anglo-Saxons without inciting the wives of the Zionist monetary elite, would not have thought of anything like that. After such a war!
          2. Nikaviz
            Nikaviz 20 May 2013 23: 52
            +1
            All the crap comes from the UK ... as far as history remembers. Their politics ... to pit peoples ... constantly on the side .. and most importantly - CREAM OF THEM !!!
    2. edge
      edge 14 May 2013 14: 57
      +6
      Quote: demon ada
      a story that we do not know.

      in the summer, 46 americos bombed the Vozdvizhenka airfield in the Primorsky Territory, plowed up the takeoff, destroyed 15 cars in the parking lot ...
    3. Mairos
      Mairos 16 May 2013 13: 49
      +4
      It’s even strange that the "Professor" does not require photographs of the wreckage of downed amers, so that with the tail numbers, without fail. Otherwise, this was not the case in the honest US press, while in a "democratic" society such facts cannot be hidden. ))))
      1. VOLCHOXURAL
        VOLCHOXURAL 16 May 2013 15: 48
        +2
        Quote: Mairos
        Otherwise, this was not the case in the honest US press, while in a "democratic" society such facts cannot be hidden. ))))
        belay Et who? Air force bunker, CNN il, il child of three years old? request Honest press, honest television and cinema? You just do not look at them intricately - pathos, propaganda - piercing action films - FU !!! fool Where are they heroes and the rest are gamut! You don’t even have to strain your brain and dig facts, everything is as clear as white day yes This alone speaks volumes and their vomiting in general !!! they, just, everything is rotten away by this total political propaganda where reality is silent, or is distorted to impossibility, even if unobtrusively but effectively !!! yes
        1. Mairos
          Mairos 16 May 2013 15: 57
          +2
          I wrote this to the fact that once the "Professor" claimed that the Syrians in the 82nd, it seems, did not shoot down a single Israeli aircraft, since nowhere is there a photo with the wreckage and numbers of the downed cars. And he also wrote that in Israel no one could hide the fact of their downed plane. So I maliciously wrote my post. )) And here is such a hit! I am accused of being involved! wassat
          1. VOLCHOXURAL
            VOLCHOXURAL 16 May 2013 16: 06
            0
            Sorry then repeat But your malice for some reason seems like a statement request You would even stuck a face!winked
          2. reichsmarshal
            reichsmarshal 22 May 2013 01: 21
            0
            By the way, the Israeli Air Force did not provide any evidence of the shooting down of 103 MiGs in 1982. Only one Syrian pilot was captured. And the crashed F-15 with a torn hole in the wing is in a 1982 photo somewhere on the same site: the Israeli "conclusion" is a piloting error (and this despite the fact that the IDF has 240 flight hours a year!). I have only one on my mind: X ... I eat a deer caught on a stump - so the deer is not sleeping!
  3. svp67
    svp67 14 May 2013 07: 36
    18
    Well done, he honestly and efficiently performed his work and thank him very much for that.
    1. Gari
      Gari 14 May 2013 11: 04
      16
      Although the future aviation marshal Ivan Nikitich Kozhedub came to the front only in 1943, his combat score looks impressive. For two years - 366 sorties on a mission, 120 air battles and 62 shot down German planes, despite the fact that Kozhedub himself was not shot down at once. Moreover, from recent publications it is clear that the real list of victories of the Soviet ace is even more impressive.

      First, on April 22, 1945, his car was attacked by a pair of American Mustang-class fighters, but they soon had to bitterly regret their insolence. Less than two minutes later, one of the "Mustangs" flew to pieces, and the pilot of the second barely managed to jump out with a parachute.

      He flew to himself, and they suddenly attacked, well, they got a campaign, and he flew on!

      Real As - Stalin Falcon
      1. valokordin
        valokordin 14 May 2013 11: 49
        11
        Quote: Gari

        Real As - Stalin Falcon

        The fact that Kozhedub was never shot down, that he knew how to fight better than Hartman, who was shot down 7 times, is a proven fact. And whether we will have Medvedev's falcons, probably they already have. You see how famously they dealt with the Soviet aircraft industry.
        1. pav-pon1972
          pav-pon1972 14 May 2013 16: 17
          +7
          Serdyukov is worth what - "the falcon" is his mother ...
          1. Gari
            Gari 14 May 2013 17: 35
            +1
            Quote: pav-pon1972
            Serdyukov is worth what - "the falcon" is his mother ...


            He is not a falcon, a falcon is a noble bird
            1. Boa kaa
              Boa kaa 14 May 2013 23: 19
              +3
              Quote: Gari
              He is not a falcon, a falcon is a noble bird

              EXACTLY! He is worse than a sparrow, he only tweeted and learned, shallow ...
              1. SASCHAmIXEEW
                SASCHAmIXEEW 16 May 2013 10: 07
                0
                Exactly! Only he chirped painfully and got as in that joke: "I got into ha..o, so don't chirp"
                1. Alex
                  Alex 25 August 2013 23: 48
                  +2
                  Come on, stop offending the bird with such comparisons. lol
        2. kavad
          kavad 19 May 2013 16: 07
          -1
          So Hartman and departures made much more! 1525 and 825 battles. There is a difference? The more you fly, the more likely they are to be knocked down. Seven times more participated - that's seven times and shot down!
          By the way, after the first battle of Kozhedub, his plane was not subject to recovery.
          1. Alex
            Alex 25 August 2013 23: 52
            +2
            Quote: kavad
            So Hartman and departures made much more! 1525 and 825 fights.

            Yeah! And another of his fellow tribesman at the core flew and pulled himself by the hair from the swamp. And what feats he accomplished during the war with the Turks ......

            But seriously: people do not live with such numbers, here the law of large numbers will simply work. And how did he get the nickname "parachutist" for his successes?
  4. Denis_SF
    Denis_SF 14 May 2013 08: 19
    14
    However, even when the commander of one of the divisions of the 64th Air Corps, Major General Kozhedub, attacked the US squadrons clearing the way for the UN "peacekeepers" in Korea, new stars did not appear on his plane. Moscow categorically forbade the division commander to participate in battles, and therefore all 264 destroyed enemy aircraft should be attributed to Ivan Nikitich's students.

    It was then that our aces delayed the start of the third world ..
    1. Gari
      Gari 14 May 2013 10: 59
      10
      [i] The regiment commander Pavel Chupikov only joked that they would have to fight with the Americans very soon, and on the very first day of the next war, their wrecked cars would be attributed to him retroactively [i]

      In every joke, only a fraction of the joke
      the rest is true
  5. Egoza
    Egoza 14 May 2013 08: 24
    +9
    "And why not pick up on Russians!" He did the right thing. WELL DONE! The Americans should remember this story before going into their "peacekeeping" operations!
  6. pinecone
    pinecone 14 May 2013 08: 28
    +5
    Unlike the Kozhedub episode, an air battle between Soviet and American pilots on November 7, 1944. in the sky above the Yugoslav city, Nis became a diplomatic incident and was reflected in the correspondence between Stalin and Roosevelt.
    Another version at http://www.zovneba.irk.ru/text/su_us44.html

    PS American Mustang fighters were armed with six large-caliber (12.7mm) Browning M2 machine guns, so that "bright tracer shells ", most likely an incorrect presentation of Kozhedub's story, although in this case it is not so important.
    1. viktorR
      viktorR 14 May 2013 12: 47
      +3
      Well, let not shells, but still bullets, still tracing. Here, apparently, it’s a matter of habit that we, that the Germans mainly had guns on fighter jets, so he out of habit said about shells. Although maybe the author who retold the words of Kozhedub was mistaken.
  7. kartalovkolya
    kartalovkolya 14 May 2013 08: 47
    11
    It doesn't matter how and what happened! It is important how ours answered. Not lisping, but in a mug. Yes, what to say, if the amers got involved in the war only when almost everything was decided. The main thing is to show "... and we plowed ...". And all their dastardly antics are known to us from the stories of veterans. Often they were confused to test our "strength", and then they asked me to pardon. That is why now it is necessary to give them back, without regard to the "public" opinion of their lackeys.
    1. Lgpack
      Lgpack 14 May 2013 16: 16
      +7
      And the Western media write that the United States won this war, the rest are in the wings))
  8. erased
    erased 14 May 2013 09: 14
    13
    Well, the Russian Ivan acted according to the principle "who will come to us with a sword ..." Until now, this principle is remembered in the world, then they climb with an eye and hope more for the fifth column.
    If only we had guys like Kozhedub, Pokryshkin and other aces.
    1. smirnov
      smirnov 14 May 2013 13: 36
      11
      But Americans, on the contrary, are masters of civilians working out what Dresden, what Hiroshima, and then carpet in Vietnam, and of today's democratization. The tactics of cowards who are desperately afraid of their precious skin.
    2. cth; fyn
      cth; fyn 14 May 2013 17: 09
      +1
      ______________
    3. Airman
      Airman 17 May 2013 10: 28
      0
      Quote: erased
      Well, the Russian Ivan acted according to the principle; whoever comes to us with a sword ...; They still remember this principle in the world, then they climb with caution and rely more on the fifth column.
      If only we had guys like Kozhedub, Pokryshkin and other aces.

      But where can they come from, if Serdyukov’s order didn’t include admission to military schools for several years, or as they call names now, universities. Yes, and the fuel is very expensive, our pilots, in addition to aerobatic teams, have much less airborne attacks.
  9. 120352
    120352 14 May 2013 09: 16
    +3
    It is good that there is an experience of direct contacts, it is bad that Kozhedubov is not visible! Figure skating Swifts and Knights in combat today may not be useful ...
    1. Canep
      Canep 14 May 2013 09: 56
      +5
      Egyptian pilots also thought so and paid for it.
  10. Slevinst
    Slevinst 14 May 2013 09: 33
    12
    "These victories are at the expense of a future war." this phrase for centuries
  11. Forest
    Forest 14 May 2013 09: 40
    +6
    "Having driven three multi-engine giants into the ground" - after that you need to rename the "flying fortresses" into flying targets.
  12. crambol
    crambol 14 May 2013 09: 40
    16
    The article was shocking. I never thought that this was possible already during the Second World War! The author has a bunch of pluses for the materials found. Our youth should learn from such examples.
    1. folds
      folds 14 May 2013 12: 37
      +9
      And what about Churchill’s plan to attack the USSR in July 1941? They are not so allies, as they scream out loud.
      1. sergeschern
        sergeschern 14 May 2013 23: 04
        +4
        I read a couple of years ago that the British carried out their special operations against the USSR in our Caucasus until 1944. And this is after Tehran (1943)! - Allies, their mother!
      2. Piran
        Piran 15 May 2013 17: 27
        -2
        maybe in July 45?
      3. politruk419
        politruk419 20 May 2013 03: 52
        +1
        What, was he going to attack directly? The explanation lies on the surface — Churchill drank a lot. fellow
    2. Lgpack
      Lgpack 14 May 2013 16: 19
      +3
      And not only young people, but also the government in protecting its sovereignty and will.
  13. omsbon
    omsbon 14 May 2013 09: 48
    13
    GLORY and ETERNAL MEMORY to all the pilots of the Great Patriotic War, alive and dead!
  14. PROXOR
    PROXOR 14 May 2013 09: 48
    +9
    Ivan Nikitovich URA URA URA !!!!!! High-class pilot hardened and trained in battles with aces of the Luftwaffe. Who would have bothered that striped ogreb when they climb. in May 1945, the Soviet Union possessed the most powerful army in the world. And not just by the army, but by an army of professionals. Trained in heavy fighting. These are no longer the shelled reservists of 1941.
    But the story is that the Yankees are forgotten very quickly. Oh well...
  15. Parabelum
    Parabelum 14 May 2013 10: 03
    +8
    Moreover, from the publications of recent years it is clear that the real list of victories of the Soviet ace is even more impressive. The vicious principles of "socialist collectivism" often forced the best pilots to share their victories with less capable comrades,

    What are these "perverse principles"? And who was "forcing"? Pokryshkin himself said in his books that he wrote down the airplanes he shot down at the expense of his wingmen in order to stimulate the pilots. In reality, the list of victories would have been much more impressive if the registration of aircraft did not require confirmation of ground units, etc. (which explains the overwhelming number of victories of German pilots).
    1. VOLCHOXURAL
      VOLCHOXURAL 14 May 2013 12: 37
      +3
      I remember from one of the TV shows that Pokryshkin almost failed five in one of his first battles in the war! And he recorded only one for himself, and one at a time to his younger comrades! good (if someone is aware of those events, then correct) If the difference is really five-fold, then the number of their victories is huge! soldier
  16. Algor73
    Algor73 14 May 2013 10: 07
    11
    Pilot from God. A simple peasant guy. From such simple Kozhedubov, Gagarin, Stakhanovs the Union was held, fastened, objected. Alas, everything went into oblivion.
  17. Evgenx
    Evgenx 14 May 2013 10: 35
    +6
    Shot down! And if you have to: we’ll be gagging !!!
    1. Argon
      Argon 14 May 2013 15: 57
      -4
      You probably remembered about the hired air defense specialists of the Georgian army in 2008. In any case, this statement full of vigor does not apply to the Russian Air Force, but even more so to the Ukrainian.
  18. Red hornet
    Red hornet 14 May 2013 10: 57
    +9
    "These victories are at the expense of a future war." -
    USSR - USA, 2: 0, Kozhedub opened the score. :)
  19. valokordin
    valokordin 14 May 2013 11: 52
    +5
    Quote: Evgenx
    Shot down! And if necessary: ​​we will shoot !!!
    So our Medvedev falcons smashed our aircraft industry and did not suffer any losses.
  20. Standard Oil
    Standard Oil 14 May 2013 12: 02
    +2
    Well, the Americans really wanted to arrange at least some dirty trick to the Soviet troops.
    1. Akim
      Akim 14 May 2013 19: 02
      +4
      Quote: Standard Oil
      I really wanted the Americans to arrange at least some dirty trick to the Soviet troops.

      Do not blame the Americans. They are like children for our psychology - or rather like teenagers. This is certainly bad. They will be poked with a finger that this is an ENEMY and they will think so without analyzing. Then they sincerely did not consider us enemies. Most likely the pilots confused the La-7 out of ignorance. with the FW-190. The French from the "Neman" regiment also often fled from La-5.
      1. reichsmarshal
        reichsmarshal 14 May 2013 22: 55
        +1
        In general, anyone can mix up airplanes in the sky. Ours in the war refused to supply Spitfires because they were confused with messers.
        1. Akim
          Akim 14 May 2013 23: 20
          +1
          Quote: reichsmarshal
          Ours in the war refused to supply Spitfires because they were confused with messers.

          Perhaps this is also why, although the Spitfire was not suitable for the nature of air combat on the Soviet front. The French were afraid of the habit of confusing La-5 because they knew that experienced pilots flew the Fokers. Even a case was recorded when a French pilot on a Yak attacked a La-5FN and even shot it down, because the Soviet pilot did not engage in combat (in some film, this case was filmed). Maybe that's why Kozhedub didn't care about the allies?
          1. saygon66
            saygon66 15 May 2013 00: 27
            +2
            The best of the "Spitfires" MkIX performed poorly at low and medium altitudes, yielding to Yaks and La.
            1. reichsmarshal
              reichsmarshal 22 May 2013 21: 49
              0
              Where does this information come from?
          2. tomket
            tomket 15 May 2013 00: 36
            +1
            abandoned obsolete modifications, the British themselves complained that they were knocked down by apples from apple trees on these modifications, modern modifications were not postulated motivating themselves lacking
          3. Alex
            Alex 26 August 2013 00: 26
            +2
            Even a case was recorded when a French pilot on Yak attacked La-5FN and even shot him down because the Soviet pilot did not enter the battle (in some film this case was filmed).

            Normandie-Niemen! And Maurice Schall knocked him down. On June 8, 1944, in one of the first sorties, he, by mistake, attacked the plane of the neighboring regiment of Vasily Arkhipov, mistaking it for the enemy. Arkhipov saw that he was being attacked by the "Norman" and relayed this to his wingman by radio. Then he tried to make it clear by swinging his wings that he was his own. But Maurice got excited and immediately made a second run ...

            This tragic mistake deeply disturbed the pilots of the Normandy. They arrived at the funeral of Arkhipov, led by the commander Pierre Puyad. Speaking at the memorial meeting, on behalf of all the pilots of the regiment, he said that he considered this case a black spot in the history of the Normandy and that the French would do everything in battles against the enemy to atone for the death of their Soviet comrade in arms. "

            The young pilot remained in the regiment and soon proved that he was one of the best pilots on the Normandy. The first enemy plane was shot down on June 26, and by the end of the year had already 5 official victories (1 of them in the group) and one unconfirmed. Having received the rank of Junior Lieutenant and transferred to the new Yak-3 fighter, at the beginning of 1945 he won 5 more victories (4 of them in the group). He shot down 10 enemy aircraft in fierce air battles. He atoned for his mistake, but did not absolve himself of moral guilt. His first and last mistake, which cost the life of a Soviet pilot, obviously, in the end, cost the life of Maurice Chal himself.
            Until the very last day, he sought out the hottest spots and climbed into the thick of the battle as an obsessed man. He really was a good pilot - the average pilot, with the constant obsession with which he climbed into hell, would be shot down in the second or third battle. But he knocked down. He was awarded the Order of the Patriotic War of the 2 degree, then - the 1 degree. For the military successes achieved in the battles over East Prussia, Maurice Schall was awarded the Order of the Red Banner - one of the most revered and valued front-line soldiers. And after each award Maurice Schall began to fight even more fiercely.
            He died 27 March 1945 of the year, shortly before the end of the war, when the French rarely suffered losses. No one knows what happened to him - Maurice has not returned from a combat mission and is reported missing. His fate remains unknown until now ...
        2. saygon66
          saygon66 15 May 2013 00: 17
          +4
          They didn’t completely refuse .... The MkV type participated in battles in the Kuban and Ukraine. The MkIX type was used by the Baltic Black Sea Fleet air defense. A total of 1185 aircraft were imported.
          1. tomket
            tomket 15 May 2013 00: 33
            +1
            were boo and by 43 the year was not too quoted, and often they shot down their own as an unidentified type
          2. Argon
            Argon 15 May 2013 00: 58
            0
            Mostly at the end of the war. As a rule, 9s and 16s were sent to the air defense. Although the fives were not used massively in the north, northwest of 42g quite successfully, their massive use in 43g, in the "battle for Kuban" revealed quite a few shortcomings of the British fighter. considered low maintainability, the IAP command was unable to maintain proper combat readiness in our conditions, the complexity of the supply of ammunition and spare parts and accessories, at working heights is inferior to enemy fighters.
        3. Lavr75
          Lavr75 15 May 2013 11: 37
          0
          Spitfires, in my opinion, delivered about 1200 pieces. and no one refused them, they just caught up with their production and switched to "Airacobras" in full.
          1. Akim
            Akim 15 May 2013 12: 23
            0
            Quote: Lavr75
            switched to Airacobra in full.

            I spoke once on this subject with the Americans. They like it so much that the Soviet pilots R-39 respected.
            1. Lavr75
              Lavr75 16 May 2013 11: 43
              +5
              During the Second World War, in the aviation of the Northern Fleet, my grandfather flew in the "Aircobra", I asked him, praised the airplane. There were problems when pulling out of the tailspin, but generally remembered with warmth, especially the door on the side and firepower.
            2. Blackgrifon
              Blackgrifon 20 May 2013 21: 33
              0
              And the Yankees themselves Cobra and Kingcobra did not like. Our pilots especially appreciated these vehicles for their weapons.
              Moreover, in one of the books about Pokryshkin, our Ace explicitly stated that one of the main advantages of the Cobras was good weapons. Those who wish can compare the weapons of the Yak-1, Yak-9 with the P-39 and MiG-15 (the latter is the result of studying the experience of the War).
        4. Blackgrifon
          Blackgrifon 20 May 2013 21: 28
          0
          Actually, Spitfires entered the USSR under Lend-Lease. True, they were mainly used as air defense aircraft - on the approaches to the front and in the rear.
  21. Argon
    Argon 14 May 2013 13: 09
    +3
    In general, I didn’t like the article, not objectively with a clear hat-handed accent. Personally, I don’t know about Ivan Nikitich’s battles with Fortresses. It seems unlikely to me that three B-20s can be shot down from two 120mm cannons with 17 oil per barrel per barrel, of course. Why is it not given statistics, even approximate ones, what are our losses from the blows of the allies? But given the political situation, it should be. Personally, I have no doubt that all cases of "friendly fire" are accidental, no, I do not defend amers, it is enough to imagine the mentality of the middle level of the US Army and the state of their intelligence in general, at that time.
    1. dmb
      dmb 14 May 2013 13: 25
      +5
      And I did not like the article for a completely different reason. The fact that the Americans are now our opponents, and also that their leadership at the end of the war behaved foully, is not at all grounds for rejoicing over the tragedy that happened. Two m..a attacked an ally, not understanding that he was an ally. Kozhedub didn’t bring them down, not because he didn’t like the Americans, but because he himself wasn’t killed. Well, why rejoice. When he beat them in Korea, there is reason for glee. And then ... Read the memoirs of not only allies, but also knocked down their own in the heat of battle.
      1. xan
        xan 14 May 2013 14: 48
        14
        do not expose them white and fluffy.
        In Italy there was our air group with the aim of helping the south. Because of the constant ridicule of the rusfaner, an incident occurred with the killed, which I don’t remember exactly, I’m too lazy to look, I read for a long time. After the war, the allies laughed at the Normandie-Niemen Yaks. In the emitting battles, our French rolled their Spitfires to zero. Anglo-Saxon villainous people. They become normal after they look death in the eye.
        1. Kaa
          Kaa 14 May 2013 15: 08
          +9
          Quote: xan
          there was an incident with the dead,
          "The day of November 7, as you know, for many years was the red day of the calendar. November 7, 1944 was no exception, and Soviet pilots from the 707th Attack Aviation Regiment were preparing for the holiday in the morning. In the morning, before the hearing of the people who were at the airfield, Suddenly there was the hum of dozens of engines. Soon planes appeared in the sky, which began to dive one after the other and drop nine hundred kilogram bombs. Since there was no way for the pilots of the 707th assault aviation regiment to take off, a detachment on duty rose to the rescue from the nearby airfield of the 866th fighter aviation regiment. From the very first approach they managed to knock out two strangers. Gradually the whole regiment rose into the air, and a real "dog fight" began - a maneuverable battle at low altitudes. And only then did the Soviet pilots see with amazement that on the wings and the fuselages of enemy aircraft are not painted with black German crosses, but with white stars of the US Air Force! Someone even remembered the designation of the American "frame" - destroy l-bomber R-9 "Lighting. Half an hour after the raid on the Soviet airfield above the column of the 38th Guards Rifle Corps north of the Serbian city of Niš (by the way, the airfield of the 6th Assault Aviation Regiment was also located near this city), another group of American R-707 "Lighting". In total, the group consisted of 38 Rama vehicles (apparently from the 12nd Fighter Group
          US Air Force) accurately hit several trucks with soldiers, including two ambulances, with large red crosses at the top of the awning. The corps commander, General Stepanov, died, 31 soldiers and officers, and 37 others were wounded. Ten minutes later, a pair of Yak-9s of the 866th Fighter Aviation Regiment took off from the airfield. At 13.05 another six yaks took off. The Americans managed to knock out two Yak-9 aircraft in an air battle. According to observation from the ground, a total of 5 "Lightings" were shot down by Soviet fighters. By mutual agreement of the parties, this short "Soviet-American war" was consigned to oblivion, so few people know about this episode. The article was published in the UFO magazine No. 3 (2007), Author: Evgeny VASILIEV. http://anpejib.blogspot.com/2009/07/blog-post_10.html
          1. Argon
            Argon 14 May 2013 22: 06
            -1
            Da Khan had a completely different story in mind, it is obvious that something related to the so-called. "Poltava" escort fighter squadron. Which "fortress" accompanied.
        2. Snoop
          Snoop 14 May 2013 22: 38
          +1
          They had such a contemptuous "Russian plywood")))
          I also read it, but the case after the victory, Yak against Spitfire, threw one English word scornfully in the direction of our aircraft about plywood, ours were offended, they say let's go once again ... who whom. The pilot on Yak won, the command got stuck, but everything worked out as the Englishman successfully landed by parachute.
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 14 May 2013 22: 45
            -9
            Read less of any "dung"!
            1. tomket
              tomket 14 May 2013 23: 55
              +1
              No, it was after the war. A group fight over the border of the zone of occupation, at first the couples came together, then the rest were impatient and came up, and their amers pulled up, a whole dog dump came out, though without shooting, then Stalin had the analysis, but he was generally satisfied since amers did.
        3. reichsmarshal
          reichsmarshal 14 May 2013 23: 04
          -5
          Objectively, YAKs are much worse than Western aircraft. But to compare a plywood-rag plane, assembled by 14-year-olds working 16-17 hours a day for 100 grams of increase to 250 grams of bread rations (this was not only in the besieged Leningrad, but throughout the country: who would just work like that?) with Spitfire, which was done by workers with an experience of 20-30 years: incorrect. The above simulated battle only confirms that the Soviet and French pilots are better than allies!
          1. tomket
            tomket 15 May 2013 00: 27
            +4
            believe me, not everything was as bad with the quality as you draw, for example, you can read the report on the test of the captured X-NUMX by the Germans, even with an overheated engine it was quite up to the mark, by the way, the captured trophy-wolf-wolf was not a quality standard either. The survivability of the Lavochkin was phenomenal, there was even an analysis by Stalin about how it turned out that Lavochkin admitted that it happened somehow. About rag yaks, remember for example perky harkeyns, or wooden tails of 5k, or better, a wooden miracle - a mosquito !! ! and by the way, a well-fed person can sometimes work worse than a person whose motivation is everything for the front, everything for victory, and not fill his belly in the evening.
            1. reichsmarshal
              reichsmarshal 20 May 2013 00: 22
              -1
              I read about the trials of the trophy La-5: praise is not enough. Fokker has never been a benchmark for quality, but he was created to hunt stormtroopers and bombers, and not to fight the Spitfires or Yaks. Hurricanes were not very massive aircraft, they were quickly replaced; and they were created even before the war. Messer with a wooden tail is a consequence of the reduction of the resource base of the Reich, and not the grace of the designers. A mosquito is really a "mosquito", judging by the effect of its use (only moral!). The motivation "everything for the front, everything for victory" arose only because the dependents in the USSR received 125 g of bread per day. You won't last long on such a ration, but at work they will give you more rations - anyway, it's better than dying of hunger!
              1. Blackgrifon
                Blackgrifon 20 May 2013 21: 41
                0
                To listen to you - so everything was fine with the Allies, but we have everything as always - and the plywood planes and workers in the factories worked for bread.

                In addition, the memoirs of the German Luftwaffe generals speak of the good qualities of Soviet fighters.
                1. reichsmarshal
                  reichsmarshal 22 May 2013 01: 34
                  0
                  "memoirs of German generals of the Luftwaffe" - reference, pliz. "everything was fine with the allies" - far from everything. They had more jambs than ours, only and opportunities too. But the main thing was that in the USSR, for a number of reasons, aviation was "flying artillery", replacing howitzers and Katyushas where they could not be pulled up (there were not enough tractors for heavy artillery until the early 50s). And the allies, having sufficient artillery, used the Air Force as a "distant hand", ie. to influence transport hubs. That is, comparing the USSR Air Force and the USA / British Air Force is not very true in fact: the tasks are different.
          2. xan
            xan 16 May 2013 14: 18
            +2
            Quote: reichsmarshal
            Objectively, YAKs are much worse than Western aircraft.

            worse, if all the characteristics you need for battle are better?
            1. reichsmarshal
              reichsmarshal 20 May 2013 00: 15
              0
              What you call the characteristics necessary for the battle were better only on the "first row" vehicles. Serial and second-hand (i.e., repaired in field conditions) aircraft were much worse than Messers and Fokers in terms of capabilities. This was due to a shortage of aviation specialists and technicians (and where did they get them in the required quantities in a country that two decades before had no capable industry at all, and even suffered the Civil War).
          3. Blackgrifon
            Blackgrifon 20 May 2013 21: 37
            +1
            Interesting arguments - only they obviously do not correspond to reality - the Yak-9, Yak-3, Yak-1, La-5, La-5FN, IL-2, IL-10 were far from plywood-rag. Before blaspheming a good technique, study the materiel.
            1. reichsmarshal
              reichsmarshal 22 May 2013 01: 39
              0
              All these machines, except for the Il-10 (120 units in the middle of 1945) were of a mixed (metal-wooden) design. Compared to metal, this is a clear loss. But this was a consequence of a deficit of duralumin, and not someone's meager mind. In La-5 and -7, the specific armament did not allow making them "workhorses" (ie escort fighters). And the Yaks generally burned from one hit and above 4 thousand meters became targets for the messengers.
    2. reichsmarshal
      reichsmarshal 14 May 2013 22: 58
      -9
      The only question is shooting accuracy. Well, also in the survivability of the aircraft and the pilot's endurance. The main reason for the low efficiency of the Luftwaffe in the west in 1944 was the fact that the bulk of the "middling" pilots were knocked out in the East and North Africa. "ASSov" like Hartman to die for the sake of victory cannot be forced. And the youth simply lacked experience, as evidenced by the losses during the Bodenplatte operation.
      1. Anti
        Anti 14 May 2013 23: 08
        +1
        for the fascist call sign -
        1. reichsmarshal
          reichsmarshal 20 May 2013 00: 24
          -1
          The Reichsmarschall is the title of the era of the Holy Roman Empire. What does he have to do with the Reich? HELL. Menshikov also wore this title.
          1. Seraph
            Seraph 22 May 2013 02: 24
            +1
            His Grace Prince Alesander Danilovich Menshikov was both a senator, and a member of the Privy Council, and the president of the Military College, and the Field Marshal, and the Generalissimo of the naval and ground forces, and the admiral, and even the duke. But the Reichsmarshal was not at all!
            And about "what does the Reichsmarschall titut have to do with the Reich?" The Holy Roman Empire of the German nation is not Rome, as you might think from the name, but the very first German Reich. 1nd - Bismarck. 2rd - Hitler's. Which one are you? Who is closer to your heart: Otto the Great, Bismarck or Hitler ??? Or, suddenly, one of the Russians (although this is so out of date, right!)
            1. reichsmarshal
              reichsmarshal 22 May 2013 22: 03
              0
              "The Serene Highness of the Roman and Russian states, the prince and duke of Izhora, Her Imperial Majesty the All-Russian Reichsmarshal and the commander of the General Field Marshal over the troops ... the company captain bombardier Alexander Danilovich Menshikov"
              I probably inaccurately asked the question: what is the relation of the title "Reichsmarschall" (as well as Otto the Great and O. von Bismarck) to the Third Reich and Adolf Hitler? And what does German mean? During the time of Otto the Great, Brandenburg was the border area of ​​the Reich, and Prussia was inhabited by pagans. I don’t understand, where does Nazism and Hitler?
      2. Day 11
        Day 11 14 May 2013 23: 19
        -9
        If you try to understand when the star of the first Hero of the USSR three times rose, it turns out that until the spring of 1943 there was no such a famous pilot in the air force as Alexander Pokryshkin !!! The operational reports of the 20th SAD, which included the 55th IAP, often contain the names of Figichev, who shot down 9 aircraft in the first month of the war (11 in total for the first year of the war), Rechkalov, Ivachev (before the death of 14.10.41/7/13.07.41 - 4 personal victories ), Shelyakina (before he was captured 31.07.41 - 4 personal victories), Dyachenko (before the death of July 15.10.41, 8 - 2 personal victories), Seliverstova ... The first serious doubts connected with the Hero of the Soviet Union Kuzma Seliverstov, the first to the regiment regarding the veracity of the memoirs of "the most humble ace." About him, Pokryshkin wrote the following verbatim: “Kuzma did not bring down many enemy aircraft, but how many of us he saved our lives in air battles! A modest, shy person, a direct and honest comrade, a true fighting friend. ” However, it turned out that at the time of the death of 10/2/20 Seliverstov had (according to various documents) from 1941 + 3 to XNUMX + XNUMX - the best result in the regiment, while about the most "great and modest" ace operational documents were XNUMX CAD for XNUMX they mention only XNUMX (three) times:

        15.07.41/6.30/9.40. 2-3, 3 reconnaissance flights to Orhei district were made ... Art. Lt Pokryshkin on the MiG-3. In the second flight, the crews found XNUMX km sowing. Grozesti in a swamp a broken MiG-XNUMX. Presumably Art. Pokryshkin

        18.07.41/XNUMX/XNUMX. returned from an emergency landing, Mr Pokryshkin.

        28.07.41. At 6.25 two MiG-3s reconnaissance in the district of crossings over the river. Dniester in the district of Stroinitsy, Grigoriopol. ... Art. when returning from reconnaissance, due to weather conditions, Pokryshkin landed at Semenovka airfield.
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 14 May 2013 23: 31
          -4
          Until the age of 43, I can show his combat path. With extracts from combat logs. Who wants to argue, I will only be interested (only for those who are in the subject). As for Kozhedub, I also start to understand (there are also "dark" spots there) --- I can discuss
          1. Argon
            Argon 15 May 2013 01: 37
            0
            With pleasure but late already.
        2. Argon
          Argon 15 May 2013 01: 36
          0
          Are you amiable in the army? Probably he got there (in the report), only because reconnaissance was carried out on the instructions of the army headquarters.
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 15 May 2013 01: 49
            -1
            Military school. And so, he said too much!
        3. Blackgrifon
          Blackgrifon 20 May 2013 21: 44
          0
          I’m afraid I don’t agree with you - strangely enough, the Hero of the Soviet Union during the war was given primarily for heroism. If Pokryshkin was not an effective fighter, his victory score would not have been as officially announced.
        4. reichsmarshal
          reichsmarshal 22 May 2013 22: 07
          0
          The commander of the 20th SAD General Osipenko could not stand Pokryshkin, so the attention to him then could not be big. It is strange that he is generally mentioned in operational documents (they are OPERATIONAL - what do they have to do with an individual pilot?).
      3. tomket
        tomket 15 May 2013 00: 41
        +1
        According to Speak 80, percent of aces were knocked out on the eastern front, do you mean Marcel’s bespectacled man near North Africa? What aces are you full of? Germans themselves admitted that they had shot ammunition in the sand and then painted sticks for themselves
    3. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 14 May 2013 23: 45
      +4
      Quote: Argon
      Personally, I don't know about Ivan Nikitich's battles with Fortresses. It seems to me unlikely

      Sergey Vladimirovich! I admire Ivan Nikitich, not only because he is three times Hero of the Soviet Union, but also because of his modesty. I was fortunate enough to meet him in person, listen to his story and HEAR! his answer to the directly posed question about the downed American planes.
      Ivan Nikitich mentioned only about 2's downed Mustangs, who got into the habit (his words!) to storm our airfields, shooting down planes on takeoff or landing. On the instructions of the division commander, he went on a free hunt and grabbed two "black, curly-haired, with big lips" for this dirty business. During the meeting, he never remembered about the "fortresses". I have already written about this on the website, but I found understanding only from a professional pilot.
      1. tomket
        tomket 15 May 2013 07: 47
        +2
        in general, the fortresses did not fly individually, and they would hardly have sent one kojoubub to intercept the fortress box, but we didn’t hear about the massive interception of fortresses
      2. Blackgrifon
        Blackgrifon 20 May 2013 21: 47
        0
        To the wall of such allies for such a thing!
        In general, it’s interesting what happened to the allied pilots who captured our troops and attacked our troops.
    4. tomket
      tomket 14 May 2013 23: 51
      +1
      I remember that when the shuttle operations were carried out near Poltava, the amers plotted a bunch of pictures of our territory, the Germans cut one fortress with cameras and already based on the pictures from this fortress attacked the airfield, where the fortresses were based, and in general there were many cases of parallel reconnaissance in 43-44 year of our territory with American aircraft, although somewhere in the memoirs it is mentioned that the pilots themselves were indignant at such swine behavior, and they often had to be admonished, as they say, politically savvy in whoever is the true enemy after the war.
    5. Old warrior
      Old warrior 15 May 2013 12: 46
      0
      Shtemenko "The General Staff in the Great Patriotic War". The book mentions similar cases.
    6. Mairos
      Mairos 16 May 2013 14: 15
      +1
      "As weapons on the La-7, cannons 2x20 mm (ShVAK) or 3x20 mm (B-20) could be installed, equipped with a hydromechanical synchronizer that prevents shells from entering the propeller blades (most La-7s were armed with two ShVAK cannons with an ammunition of 200 rounds for each) "
    7. kavad
      kavad 19 May 2013 16: 18
      0
      In-in! I read somewhere that, on average, one hundred forty-seven 20-mm ShVAK cannon shells, or thirty-one 37-mm NS-37 cannon shells, or ten 45-mm guns, went down on an airplane (only a fighter or a bomber was not indicated). shells gun NS-45.
  22. Fitter65
    Fitter65 14 May 2013 14: 17
    +4
    Quote: Argon
    In general, I didn’t like the article, not objectively with a clear head-off accent. Personally, I don’t know about Ivan Nikitich’s battles with Fortresses. It seems unlikely to me that three B-20s can be shot down from two 120mm cannons with 17 oil per barrel per barrel, of course.

    To be honest, I completely agree, and at the expense of shapkozakidatelstva, and about a fight with B-17 or B-24, I have not met with I. N. Kozhedub, although about a fight with P-51 (In 45 they were called Pi-51) he has written in detail, not much like this article. Although I may have read the old late 80s editions, the author may have newer "added and corrected" ones. Returning to the shooting down of 3 multi-engine bombers.
    Why, it couldn’t be. 1) The Americans went above 6000m, while from La-1 readiness No. 7, they took off, began to gain altitude, they would have gone by bombing. The Germans on their lower-speed scouts have repeatedly demonstrated this during wars. 2) The ammunition of 2 ShVAK guns might have been enough for one B-17, or B-24 type bomber, but no more. Considering that the Fokke-Wulfs with more powerful weapons having used up all their ammunition, they did not always achieve the shot down.
    To be a patriot is good, to be proud of your heroes is a must. But you don’t need to make Ivan Yevgrafovichi of worthy and respected people.
    1. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 14 May 2013 23: 57
      +2
      Quote: Fitter65
      Returning to the downing of 3 multi-engine bombers.

      Concisely, competently, reasonably. Handwriting of my father - a pilot. Apparently this quality is inherent in everyone who should think in a split second.
    2. tomket
      tomket 14 May 2013 23: 59
      +1
      ammunition is not an indicator, leather jacket is not a novice, knows where to shoot, and most likely hit the cockpits. why they are not surprised when the Germans say about 10 shot down aircraft with only 17 cartridges, but Kozheduba is immediately accused of squint
  23. Black
    Black 14 May 2013 14: 41
    +1
    Quote: Fitter65
    To be a patriot is good, to be proud of your heroes is a must. But you don’t need to make Ivan Yevgrafovichi of worthy and respected people.

    Yes, comrades, like that ..... B-17, that's why it was a fortress, so that it would not be felled in batches. I would like documentary evidence.
  24. deman73
    deman73 14 May 2013 15: 03
    +2
    Great article
  25. Vtel
    Vtel 14 May 2013 15: 05
    23
    While serving in Sverdlovsk in 1979, he saw him alive in the officers' house. An elderly so stocky Kozhedub! May He rest in peace! Real Russian Ace!
  26. Slavs69
    Slavs69 14 May 2013 17: 42
    +1
    To my great shame - I did not know about such clashes with the "allies" ...
    When did the FKP films show: experts explain what it is. Surely during WWII on planes there was already a photofixation?
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol 14 May 2013 18: 55
      +1
      during the first world already been.
    2. Raven1972
      Raven1972 15 May 2013 00: 06
      +1
      FKP - a photo-machine gun - was installed on all of our fighters to confirm shot down aircraft and analyze air battles ... Started to work when you press the trigger (the power release button) But for accurate confirmation of a shot down airplane, in addition to the FKP film, confirmation of SNIS posts was required (observation and communication)
      hi
      They were already on the I-16 I-15 stood in full)))))
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 15 May 2013 00: 13
        -3
        When did they appear in our country? Massively - the end of 1944 (right?). And when did the "Hans" have? - 1940 (Battle of Britain)
        1. Raven1972
          Raven1972 15 May 2013 00: 31
          0
          And I will not argue))) Why? Massively or not - it doesn’t matter if you were standing, even if not on all the machines, I just explained to the person what FKP is and what they eat it with))))))) hi Well, in general, they were installed on our aircraft from the mid-30s ...
      2. Airman
        Airman 17 May 2013 11: 01
        +1
        But for accurate confirmation of the shot down aircraft, in addition to the FKP film, confirmation of SNIS posts was required (observation and communication)
        hi
        Confirmation of the airspace monitoring and control posts (air surveillance, warning and communications) or ground troops was required.
  27. Naval
    Naval 14 May 2013 18: 56
    +2
    I would like our present aces to just as famously destroy NATO members as our grandfathers. It’s time for them to bring down the arrogance.
  28. Crang
    Crang 14 May 2013 19: 02
    0
    Well done man. Just great. Cool guy. I showed these "Topganovites" how to fight. R-51 "Mustang" yes ... Our Yak-9U will treat him like a pig. And the same cool American R-39 "Airacobra" too.
    1. Guhbers
      Guhbers 14 May 2013 19: 58
      0
      Quote: Krang
      Our Yak-9U will bury him like a pig
      There is no need to speak in such a way ... it all depends on the PILOT! The Mustang (modifications D and up) was a great aircraft! These cars are from different "weight categories"! For the sake of fairness, I will say that Erich Hartmann on the Me-109G-x shot down both Mustangs and Yak-9s taken together ... Both in a maneuverable battle and in a dive attack ... Some would-be hackers call such tactics - tactics of "jackal ", but they forget that Pokryshkin himself shot down on the same principle ...
      1. Snoop
        Snoop 14 May 2013 22: 45
        +7
        Pokryshkin was a pilot of the front-line fighter aircraft. And he could not shoot down planes according to the Hartman principle - hit and run. The bulk of combat missions is escorting their attack aircraft and protecting their troops from German attack aircraft. Even Hartman himself recalled that he supposedly saw Pokryshkin when he accompanied the bombers, but did not attack the pity he felt sorry for the eminent opponent)))) They compared someone with whom))) Hartman Pokryshkin in a maneuvering battle, the present would not be hung. Hartman did not have such skills. But Pokryshkin in the year 41 pretty circled in the air, so that he had more than enough experience. But tactics hit and run is possible only for air hunters.
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 14 May 2013 22: 51
          0
          Is this a moot point (someone?)? Even the fact that you are interested in this issue is a plus for you! I can discuss with you on this topic (I love this topic)
          1. tomket
            tomket 15 May 2013 00: 08
            0
            Hartmann is not a pilot at all, would be a pilot like all their aces, we would not discuss.
            1. Day 11
              Day 11 15 May 2013 00: 16
              -2
              Are you dur-ak? And Mölders is not a pilot either?
              1. tomket
                tomket 15 May 2013 00: 37
                +2
                smartie? Does Toliver and Constable lie on the table ???
        2. Guhbers
          Guhbers 15 May 2013 01: 01
          +2
          Read the principle of the same "falcon strike" from Pokryshkin - this is a typical boom-zoom, which Hartmann used. Why engage in a maneuverable battle when there is an opportunity to shoot down the enemy from a dive, and even gain enough energy for the next candle (especially on the Me-109 with its high vertical speed)?
          If Hartmann and Pokryshkin had met in a maneuvering battle, I don’t know who would have won, since to determine the winner, this had to happen in reality ...
          And yes, I know that Pokryshkin was a front-line aviation pilot and flew to escort the same bombers ... But then he also flew on a free hunt. And to fly in the same formation with the bombers "covering" them is idiocy ... the Germans realized this already during the Battle of Britain ...
          Domestic "historians" are very fond of hanging labels that the boom-zoom tactic is the tactic of cowards, etc. This is complete nonsense of laymen ... In the same way, you can bite snipers who "lie in the bushes and shoot for a kilometer" ... only the effectiveness, that boom-zoom tactics, that snipers are off scale ... And the result is needed , and not boasting that I have twisted some ace on the bends ... Yes, if you have already got into a maneuverable battle, then if you want, you do not want to either spin or fall out of the battle, but take such tactics as the basis of air combat is only possible if there are aircraft that are not capable of effective vertical maneuvers ...
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 15 May 2013 01: 09
            -2
            Well done, dragging! Topic?
            1. Guhbers
              Guhbers 15 May 2013 01: 31
              -2
              In the subject :))) At least I’ve been trying to be in the subject since childhood)))) My grandfather told me about the aces of the Luftwaffe and about Hartmann ... And this was long before we began to publish information about what happens to the German aces then more victories! And to be honest, for me Hartmann is a model of a fighter pilot, for me he is a Hero, although he fought on the other side of the front ...
              And it’s just enraging when they start throwing hats that they all attributed to themselves ... and Hartmann didn’t carry out a single air battle ... (I wonder if they consider air combat? 10 turns to the left, 10 turns to the right and three barrels ???) In general, as always - instead of recognizing someone’s superiority, we’ll stupidly shit ...
              Recently I saw some kind of film on TV ... a modern "about war", so there a boy shot at Ju-87 with a rifle ... and what do we see ??? Ju-87 dives menacingly at the boy, fires machine guns ... and the boy closed his eyes and fired a rifle ... and KILLED this Ju-87! It turns out how easy it was to knock Stuka down! Just close your eyes, fire your rifle and he's shot down! This is what modern films about "war" teach ... I can't stomach this "kinzo" ... and I enjoy watching old films, such as "Only old men go to battle!", "They fought for their homeland", "Officers" and etc. - there is much more truth! And the severity of the war is really shown!
              And now they are trying to teach that the Germans did not know how to fight! If so, then WHERE then, where are such losses from us ???
              1. Day 11
                Day 11 15 May 2013 10: 06
                -3
                Cyril, I can only say that it was unfair to make a hero from Pokryshkin (probably it was necessary at that time). Yes, he was a good pilot (and nothing more). He shot down (confirmed) 7 planes. I can confirm my words! Here people think Hartman is a shit pilot --- it’s ridiculous to read. It’s clear that we are the best! And Barkhorn, Mölders (I know the history of this flyer, etc.), etc. Do you know that Vlasov (ROA) had their own air forces and fought there even 2Heroes of the Soviet Union? Interesting? In PM!
                1. reichsmarshal
                  reichsmarshal 22 May 2013 01: 55
                  +2
                  7 planes? Reference, pliz. Is it M. Zefirov by chance or Svinidze? Hartmann himself wrote that he "did not attach importance to air combat" (read "I was scared to shit"). Of the ~ 65 thousand air victories of the German aces in the East, the Luftwaffe command considered 43 thousand reliable, and according to the USSR Air Force, no more than 33 thousand of our aircraft were shot down by fighters. Bychkov and Antilevsky - laughing at the chickens: after the war, German Graf himself deserted to us.
                2. Alex
                  Alex 26 August 2013 08: 57
                  +2
                  Quote: Den 11
                  He shot down (confirmed) 7 aircraft.
                  .
                  Interesting? In PM!

                  Not. I’m not interested in delirium.
              2. Alex
                Alex 26 August 2013 08: 54
                +2
                Your "hero" from the other side made 1525 combat missions (I think you, as a fan, will not dispute this number, except in the direction of increase). A simple arithmetic operation (division - just in case, I will tell you, otherwise you, apparently, do not know this science well) shows that with one combat mission per day it is more than 4 years (more precisely, 4 years and 2 months). I think this alone shows the complete absurdity of such indicators. And I will not even begin to make the assumption that, they say, they made three or four flights, knocked down Russian fools on their plywood in bundles and with closed eyes, etc. I’ll just say that a person’s head is not just a hat.

                By the way, are you by any chance a fan of the unforgettable Thomas Aquinas? He also professed the principle "I believe, because it is absurd."
          2. reichsmarshal
            reichsmarshal 22 May 2013 01: 47
            +2
            This is not a matter of tactics, but of strategy. If the whole air war is reduced to hunting, the whole Air Force becomes meaningless. After all, their task is to attack not when it is profitable and safe, but when it is necessary to cover their own. And they rarely went for this, if there was a risk of losing. E. Yuutilainen, by the way, was not afraid of "dog-fighting", covering the hot sons of Suomi on earth, and deserves more respect than Hartman! Also like Pokryshkin and J. McConnell.
        3. reichsmarshal
          reichsmarshal 22 May 2013 01: 43
          0
          LOL! "He took pity on the enemy." Zvizdets. I'm lying around! wassat
      2. tomket
        tomket 15 May 2013 00: 08
        0
        American Ases, by the way, considered the B modification to be the best of the Mustangs with the English type of fonoru, one that is convex, and in terms of speed and weight, about tactics - this is normal tactics for heavy destroyers, for example, on the Pacific Ocean, starting from the Wildcats and ending with the Corsairs basically and used
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 15 May 2013 01: 16
          0
          I agree that at the end of the war, the Hans "overweight" their hawks. They focused on forcing the engines. But they coped quite well with the same Mustangs!
          1. Guhbers
            Guhbers 15 May 2013 01: 36
            0
            By the way, the Germans themselves admit that by the end of the war the motorists could not give a powerful engine ... There even someone spoke out (I don’t remember who now) that if they had an engine like Merlin in Mutang, it would be Wow! )))
            1. Day 11
              Day 11 15 May 2013 01: 53
              0
              Is the DB-605N not the most powerful engine?
              1. Guhbers
                Guhbers 15 May 2013 02: 35
                -1
                No, apparently I was wrong with Merlin request
                I need to find the source ... I will shovel books wassat
                But if my memory serves me right, it was about 2500 hp. something like this...

                DB-605N - something I don’t remember what
                The most powerful is the DB-605ASCM, which was set at 109K ...
                1. tomket
                  tomket 15 May 2013 08: 05
                  +1
                  engines on spitfire with power from 2000 thou are griffons, at temperature it is a neypir saber, 2500 for Germans it is with the injection of water-methanol mixture turned on, time of use 5 min. in terms of rated power and weight characteristics they were inferior to the Allied engines, with star-shaped engines things were no better either, the milestone in 2000 thousand, BMW could not be overcome, due to the increasing mass of the aircraft. In general, it seems that only our designers were concerned about the weight culture.
          2. tomket
            tomket 15 May 2013 07: 58
            +1
            Well, the Germans were also successfully dealt with by the Thunderbolts with a flight weight like our ne-2. The Germans had an urgent problem repelling the raids of fortresses, since in 43 the eastern front was still far away, and the fortresses were overhead. Therefore, there was a bias towards an increase in the number of firing points and additional armor. For example, the modification of the Fokker a-8 was called nothing other than the assault on the side of the ram. If in a battle with fortresses he had any chances (because of the low altitude he was called a low-flying target), then on the eastern front in a battle with yaks, his survival was a big question. Willie Messerschmitt, too, did not seek to make a special modification to combat the agile Soviet fighters due to his "industrial conservatism." As we know, until the end of the war he pressed to install a teardrop-shaped lantern on the 109th, due to his unwillingness to change production equipment and thereby cause disruptions in the production conveyor The same is with the tempest, for the early messers it was too heavy, but the emerging Fokkers and the heavier messengers saved his career.
            1. Guhbers
              Guhbers 15 May 2013 09: 08
              -1
              Well, the thunderbolt had the opportunity to shoot down a German either in a group battle, when they piled up in a heap, or because of an error in piloting the enemy, and to catch up on a dive :)) But who in their right mind would enter into a protracted dive when the thunderbolt was "on the tail"? ))))
              Shturmbok is generally a separate song ... exclusively for the fight against fortresses at extremely close distances. If memory serves, the pilots themselves drew on them emblems in the form of an infantry insignia "for hand-to-hand combat", thereby showing that the battle with the fortresses was going on at extremely small distances ... Against the escort fighters, the attacker had practically no chances due to the creepy maneuverability, significantly reduced due to the additional body kit of armor and due to the replaced external fluff on the MK-108. Stormboxes against yaks? Where is it? If only interception after the battle when returning to base?
              You are partly right about the teardrop-shaped flashlight on the Me-109, partly because the standard flashlight didn’t really interfere with the German pilots to achieve significant results, and even after they began to put two-section lights Erla Haube, especially ... Although I do not argue, that a bit is better)))
              Tempest the plane is good, but it is almost pure JaBo ...
              1. tomket
                tomket 15 May 2013 11: 54
                +1
                Yes, here’s just a review back and is put mainly in the unook hukoma, like the narrow track of the chassis. about the thunderbolt, for example Gabreski flying on p-47 achieved impressive results precisely against Messers
      3. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 15 May 2013 01: 15
        +9
        Quote: Guhbers
        Erich Hartmann shot down on the Me-109G-x ... Both in a maneuverable battle and in a dive attack ... Some would-be hackers call such tactics - "jackal" tactics, but they forget that Pokryshkin himself shot down on the same principle ...

        Erich Hartman (Booby - baby) is considered the most successful ace of 2 MV. On his account 352 (according to other 354 data) air victories. He (unlike Kozhedub) was shot down more than once. He was captured 2-dy (the last time completely, and stayed in Soviet captivity 10 years from bell to bell) , 1 times left the serviceable car by parachute, because didn’t leave the battle on time and ran out of fuel. He was lucky throughout the war ...
        And still, Hartman is closer in tactics of battle to the interceptor.Ambush attack: from above, from the side of the sun, always with a height excess of 1-2 km. Ours, as a rule, walked in echelons in height, the main group at H = 3km. (No oxygen mask needed. Optimal for the operation of the engine, which with the growth of H lost some power). The Germans occupied the echelon 4-5 km. IL-2 attack aircraft hit from bottom to top, aiming at an oiled radiator unprotected by armor. An excellent shooter, he started the attack with D = 60-80m. The motto was: "saw-decided-attacked-came off"... I was looking for the weakest, attacked, knocked down, left. As a rule, if they didn’t grab it, I didn’t get involved in a maneuverable air battle ("sabach swara"). His motto: "It is better to shoot down 1 plane than to spin the carousel for 20 minutes, having achieved nothing."
        I.N. Kozhedub - Pilot fighter maneuver close combat. He, unlike Bubi, attacked the lead group(the strongest is the leader!), trying to destroy the system, force them to drop bombs, refuse to complete the task. Excellent shooter, opened fire with D = 200-300m. Speed, maneuver, fire - tactics of his battle. Never shot down, in battle supported by comrades by fire and wing. He is a product of collectivist psychology, Hartman is an individualist. Both left behind memoirs. I read both. It is extremely interesting. I recommend.
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 15 May 2013 01: 22
          0
          Hold your paw, friend. Sam re-read on the subject of Luftov a bunch of interesting literature. I can talk about this topic (if interested). In a personal!
        2. tomket
          tomket 15 May 2013 08: 07
          +2
          read more toliver and constable, I’m sure in the latest editions they will describe Hartman’s fight with Darth Vader))))
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 15 May 2013 11: 31
            -7
            dur.ak-fool! If not in the subject-neh.ui here seem the smartest!
            1. tomket
              tomket 15 May 2013 12: 10
              +1
              kid Bubby, for example, stuffed 39 Laggs on the Kursk Bulge, as you know there were very few of them, mostly yaks and la-5, so a fan of striking from a distance of 100 meters can’t determine the type of aircraft, Kittel, by the way, also distinguished himself, filled a bunch of p- 40 which in 2 VA was not at all. If you drip, then a lot of interesting things are revealed
              1. Guhbers
                Guhbers 15 May 2013 12: 39
                0
                well, very often the downed Shops were recorded as Lugg ... Apparently the real name of the aircraft was far from immediately known, and the visual difference between the first La-5 (with a lantern like Lugg) and Lugg-3 only in the bow, due to the fact that La-5 has an air-cooled engine and, accordingly, the section in the midship is larger ... Yes, and a lot depends on the angle of visual observation of the aircraft ...
                1. tomket
                  tomket 15 May 2013 12: 55
                  +1
                  yes, here, by the way, is the paradox, if Grislavsky claims both LAGG-3 and LAGG-5 in victories, then Hartman stubbornly stuffs LAGG-3, you just want to ask if he is blind or stupid ???? it means a colleague can distinguish one type from another, but Hartmann cannot, and almost all descriptions of his victories are commented on with words like a plane either exploded in the air or the pilot left it, that is, he kept eye contact for a very long time,
                  1. Guhbers
                    Guhbers 15 May 2013 13: 52
                    0
                    Lagg-3 is the La-5 of the first series with a lantern like Lagg-3, and Lagg-5 is La-5 with a classic lantern. The Germans often gave such designations. When Hartmann said that the plane "exploded in the air," he meant that the explosion occurred immediately after the lines hit the plane, and not that the plane was burning, and Hartmann circled around it and waited for it to explode .. Watching the struck plane after making sure that it was shot down is like death! And if I am not mistaken, Hartmann himself fell for this "bait" when he was watching his one of the first shot down planes, was distracted and he was almost shot down. If you have ever played IL-2 or similar simulators, then try to play without markers and correctly determine the type of aircraft in the "heat of battle"! And this is sitting on a high chair in front of a computer, without risking their own life and without "pants full of adrenaline" wassat
                    1. tomket
                      tomket 15 May 2013 14: 02
                      +1
                      so maybe he then in the heat of battle 88 fokerrov knocked?)))) instead of la 5 ???? I specifically mentioned how he watched the pilot leave the plane, it turns circles
                    2. tomket
                      tomket 15 May 2013 14: 11
                      +4
                      Hartman in tsiferki: - 39 LAGGOV (and no one else) flunked "bubby" in the north of the Duga from 5 July to 5 August 43rd. Our 16 VA (which fought on the northern face) had 18 air regiments on the Yak 1-9 + 2 regiments P-39 + 6 air regiments on the La-5 (in the 739IAP there were still heels of LAGG-3). Well it should have been SO sort La ???
                      - For comparison, the loss of La-5 on the southern front (where we had even more aircraft - 2 air armies) for July (the most fierce battles):
                      48 were shot down in air battles, 35 did not return from combat missions and not a single LAGG (there were also a few of them there). And this despite the fact that the entire 8AK was hammering against them, and after August 5, due to heavy losses in 8AK, 7 / JG52 was also transferred there with the "bubby" dowry.
                      Well, there "bubby" started to blame LAGGi (and nothing more), and Buckhorn - LAGG-5 with Yaks !!!
                      Moreover, if you look at the "victories" of the entire 7 / JG52 since July 5, then there are also completely LAGGi ??? But at the 54th - everything is normal and Yaki and La-5 (LAGG-5) and R-39 - even though the decency is observed. True, 2 / JG54 had a bunch of P-40s (which were not near Orel). Well, Kittel was basically "different" there - it was obvious that the expert was "throwing down" the russfaner "Yak", so he "felled" all-metal "kittyhawks"
                      So if you deal with the "experts" - it comes out ... that it is better not to dig, otherwise we will offend the "hartmanes".
                      1. Guhbers
                        Guhbers 15 May 2013 19: 00
                        -2
                        You apparently didn’t carefully read what I wrote to you above ... Well, let's try it differently: Take the silhouettes of the Lagg-3, La-5 of the first series and La-5 with the already classic flashlight, reduce them to the scale you would see them from a distance of at least 50, 100, 150 meters, print them out and shuffle, and then try quickly looking at the force, to accurately determine the model of the aircraft smile And this is after you have seen the images of all these aircraft many times both in pictures and on video, and during WW2, the silhouettes were studied precisely by the silhouettes on a piece of paper and no one wrote that this is La-5FN - at best " LA "))) If I participated in an air battle at that time, then the only thing that would be important for me would be to identify the target on the subject of" friend or foe ", and only after the target is shot down, then deep purple Lagg -1 is it or Lagg-3 or La-5FN or La-5 or La-7))))
                        It’s just sitting in a chair, everything is simple ... And during an air battle, the nervous system is very tense ... People see the accident there is not something that they cannot remember the make of the car, they often can’t even remember the color correctly wassat And to remember how many "Ferdinands" and "Tigers" were destroyed by the Soviet troops, the German aces are not suitable for them. lol
                      2. Alex
                        Alex 26 August 2013 09: 14
                        +2
                        There is nothing to bring together clearly the Luftwaffe scribe, who is such an expert and hero (with his number of sorties, battles and victories lol ) with T-IV of the latest modifications, the suluet of which is very similar to the "Tiger". Yes, the Soviet artillerymen - for the most part former peasant lads - did not particularly understand these subtleties. And indeed, they are not Aryans with their Teutonic spirit to be worthy of your highest attention.
          2. tomket
            tomket 15 May 2013 12: 57
            +2
            and what are you nervous and call names ??? blond idol turned out to be a liar ????))))))
        3. reichsmarshal
          reichsmarshal 22 May 2013 01: 57
          0
          Nothing shines on Hartman! am
    2. reichsmarshal
      reichsmarshal 22 May 2013 01: 42
      0
      Mustang was not so very machine! He was good at high altitude. The success of the Mustangs was due to their huge number and poor training of Reich air defense pilots.
  29. Argon
    Argon 14 May 2013 21: 01
    +1
    Dear Craig, I have suggestions for you, I will quote one very smart professor of medicine Philip Filippovich Preobrazhensky, and you repeat his words three times before bedtime and, if possible, learn, "And hack on your nose that you should be silent and listen, be silent and listen , that would become at least some useful part of society "PS-how you gored the online aces, try to read, get used to it - the head should work CONSTANTLY.
  • rpek32
    rpek32 14 May 2013 20: 22
    +3
    which X is not in the textbooks? negative
  • commitment
    commitment 14 May 2013 20: 55
    +1
    Eternal American rudeness and arrogance, but, in this case, punished according to merit.
  • Skuratov
    Skuratov 14 May 2013 20: 59
    +5
    Both Kozhedub and Pokryshkin, in addition to being great air fighters, were still air commanders from God. Then all sorts of scum began to write that Pokryshkin was covered by a whole fighter division during the sortie. And everyone "forgets" that he commanded her and did not imagine how an air battle could be controlled from the ground. Well what can I say, the brave are respected only by the brave.
  • Skuratov
    Skuratov 14 May 2013 21: 04
    0
    Regarding the FKP - this is what our generals in the Great Patriotic War did a lot of business, but in this matter were smarter than the Germans. They put such equipment primarily on fighters, in the Soviet Air Force - on attack aircraft and bombers.
  • Day 11
    Day 11 14 May 2013 21: 34
    -3
    Ivan Kozhedub is an excellent pilot! I can’t say that for Pokryshkin (unfortunately). I bet (our patriots cheer up). If you want to discuss this topic, you can stay on this thread
    1. Pinochet000
      Pinochet000 15 May 2013 02: 30
      +2
      Quote: Den 11
      I can’t say this for Pokryshkin (unfortunately)

      Did you fly with him, or just read another vyser?
      1. Merl13
        Merl13 22 May 2013 09: 03
        +1
        More precisely the second (vyser). Yes, that's just a problem: Ivan Kozhedub is an excellent pilot (by the way I completely agree!) Considered Alexander Ivanovich a talented Commander, fighter, and an outstanding aerobatics and set him an example. A Great Pilot could not be wrong!
  • Anti
    Anti 14 May 2013 22: 31
    0
    Achtung! Pokryshkin! Achtung! Kozhedub!
    http://www.1tv.ru/sprojects_utro_video/si33/p61844/pg2
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 14 May 2013 22: 42
      0
      Your link does not work
      1. Anti
        Anti 14 May 2013 22: 50
        +1
        works i checked

        here's another.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LjDfYZhl_Q
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeqT3fJ1TtA&feature=player_embedded
        1. Day 11
          Day 11 15 May 2013 00: 41
          0
          These links work. But what did you want to show by this? I believe that at the time (1943-1945) the best fighter was still the Me-109G (starting from the 5th series) .Want to discuss with me? I will only be glad. How it does not put pressure on our self-consciousness; there were more abruptly than A.I. Pokryshkin
    2. Guhbers
      Guhbers 15 May 2013 02: 37
      0
      In general, it is interesting to read IMHO here: http://forums.airbase.ru/2010/11/p2328467.html
      1. Day 11
        Day 11 15 May 2013 10: 49
        0
        Do you know that Muller was beaten by our soldiers with engineer shovels to death?
        1. Guhbers
          Guhbers 15 May 2013 12: 43
          0
          Is this Rudolf Muller? After interrogation, he was beaten or what? I have not heard about this ...
          1. Day 11
            Day 11 15 May 2013 13: 17
            0
            You don’t know a lot. Let me send you the address on the "fucking" site (in Lichka). There are very competent people hanging out (completely serious). We are, against their background, just amateurs!
  • The comment was deleted.
  • gura
    gura 14 May 2013 22: 53
    -9
    From Minsk. Something you dear ones got so excited about analyzing the "legends of deep antiquity." Well, I hope by mistake, the "Stalin's falcon" killed several allied boys, so you need to sympathize, and not beat the drum! Whatever calculations do not engage in, which mantras do not mumble, and it was the Americans who threw bloody communism into the dustbin of history, the most cannibalistic pseudo-teaching. Thank them for that!
    1. Anti
      Anti 14 May 2013 23: 00
      +3
      Where is Old Man looking ?? request
      1. tomket
        tomket 15 May 2013 08: 43
        +2
        I suppose it’s already already in the morning with the old man, to educate the ignoramus)))))
    2. xan
      xan 14 May 2013 23: 17
      +4
      Quote: gura
      Well, I hope by mistake, "Stalin's falcon" killed several boys allies, so you need to sympathize, not beat the drum!

      and "russfaner" and rewriting history, double standards, too, by mistake?
      Quote: gura
      Americans threw bloody communism, the most cannibalistic pseudo-doctrine, into the dustbin of history. Thanks to them for that!

      simplified you are some, from Minsk, I would say very simple
      and clearly resentful
      Minsker offended communism!
      1. Alex
        Alex 26 August 2013 09: 19
        +2
        And this is probably from the Lithuanian-Polish patriots. Here they recently got out like a grebes after the rain.
    3. saturn.mmm
      saturn.mmm 14 May 2013 23: 22
      +1
      Quote: gura
      and it was precisely the Americans who threw bloody communism, the most cannibalistic pseudo-doctrine, into the dustbin of history. Thanks to them for that!

      Yes, the Communists ate themselves, tired of being Communists, decided to be capitalists and the Americans had nothing to do with it, well, they helped build capitalism not without their own benefits, but this is a consequence and not a reason.
    4. Day 11
      Day 11 15 May 2013 10: 53
      +2
      And also from Minsk! I hope you do not have everyone like you!
  • bublic82009
    bublic82009 14 May 2013 23: 35
    +1
    controversy erupted. the socialist principle of distribution ... they did not shoot boars, but defended their homeland. who knows, maybe they attributed part of his victories?
  • Marconi41
    Marconi41 15 May 2013 00: 40
    +3
    At that time, the Americans and the British and the Germans did well. I see their confidence over the years has not diminished. They constantly rely on the merits of their equipment, BUT in real battles they win mainly not the tahnik, but real people. So you need to see whose core is stronger !!!
  • Fitter65
    Fitter65 15 May 2013 03: 38
    0
    Quote: tomket

    ammunition is not an indicator, leather jacket is not a novice, knows where to shoot, and most likely hit the cockpits. why they are not surprised when the Germans say about 10 shot down aircraft with only 17 cartridges, but Kozheduba is immediately accused of squint

    This is just the ammunition that has an indicator, quantity, caliber, ammunition power, rate of fire, the weight of a second salvo. No one is surprised that the Germans shoot 17 planes with 10 rounds, people who understand are laughing, but again the Hurricanes, and not the B-17. Which, by the way, in the USSR during the war were not studied as enemy aircraft. Therefore, I.N. Kozhedub could hardly imagine where the weaknesses and strengths of this apparatus were, the zones of fire destruction by bomber arrows, and the dead zones, the fire interaction system and a bunch of others factors that If you think that this is a trifle, then read the memoirs of fighter pilots, in which there is always a moment that they have studied the strengths and weaknesses of enemy aircraft. Well, and indirect evidence of how ignorance of enemy technology turns around when at the front IL-2 began to appear with a shooter, many German fighters at first received a portion of lead, which were not shot down, which weren’t, the fact was confirmed by the Germans themselves. Therefore, to assert that like this, from once onward 3 Americans walking tight in order, at an altitude where La-7 is a little better in speed and maneuver than the bomb itself, covering each other with fire or two ShVAKs, this is from the realm of fantasy. Well, the most important question is, where is it written from Kozhedub himself? We do not take this article as documentary evidence. Tell me a book where this moment is described by I.N. Kozhedub, but this spectacle is not forgotten. Some of our pilots, roofing felts of Vorozheykin, roofing felts of Alelyukhin, I don’t remember exactly, there is a story about how a couple of planes of a neighboring regiment finished off damaged B- 17. Moreover, American pilots making sure that they are in They sat down on the forced zone. Two couldn’t bring down one damaged one, but the pilots from the neighboring regiment remember. And in addition, classes were conducted with all the military personnel where the SILHOUETTE silhouettes were shown, and not the zone of destruction of the Allied aircraft. Well, as an indirect confirmation , B-29s damaged by 37-mm fire, and 23-mm MiG-15 guns, in Korea often returned to their airfield. Of course, the B-29 is not the B-17, and the MiG-15 guns are not La-7 guns .
    I.N. Kozhedub being the best coalition fighter in other people's postscripts and victories, as Ivan Evgrafovich did not need and does not need, but various kindlings resembling attributing all sorts of nonsense to him, he simply tries to cast a shadow of doubt on his true victories. Therefore, no nonsense, which there was no stockpile for true heroes!
  • Fitter65
    Fitter65 15 May 2013 03: 52
    +1
    Quote: Raven1972
    FKP - photo machine gun

    Correctly PHOTOCONTROL INSTRUMENT.
  • Fitter65
    Fitter65 15 May 2013 04: 10
    +1
    Quote: Krang
    R-51 "Mustang" yes ... Our YAK-9U will treat him like a pig. And the same cool American R-39 "Airacobra" too.

    Dear you read, at least for a start, just the performance characteristics of these aircraft, well, or watch the dock series "Fighters" before writing any nonsense. One high-altitude escort fighter, another fighter of low and medium altitudes. About Airacobra generally keep quiet. Yes Yak-below 3-4 thousand will do, but the Mustang at altitudes above 6000 will make a Yak just a sieve. Therefore, do not compare the length and the cold snap. And finally, tell me how many pigs were buried by the Yaks in the Korean War? And how many Yaks were the piglets buried? Footnote that the Korean pilots were less prepared N. Skomorokhov, in the first two sorties on LaGG-3, without having any experience at all, he withstood the battle with 6 messers, and returned without a single hole.
    1. tomket
      tomket 15 May 2013 08: 54
      0
      and if you give an example of how a Chinese pilot on la-9 drove several sailers into a defensive circle, say a fiction ????
      1. Parabelum
        Parabelum 15 May 2013 09: 30
        0
        Those. Are you saying that one LA9 piston aircraft "drove" several jet fighters, surpassing it in everything (in speed, rate of climb, ceiling), into the defensive circle? Those. they did not leave the battle and were forced to "whirl around defensively." Sorry, but I do not believe, please provide a source, I want to read, for general development.
      2. Guhbers
        Guhbers 15 May 2013 12: 45
        0
        Yes, it would also be interesting to read the source ... And somehow it looks fantastic ... It’s the same that the U-2 would drive several Me-109F-4 into the defensive circle wassat
        1. tomket
          tomket 15 May 2013 13: 14
          +2
          downed MiG-15 fury and mustangs do not surprise you, and La-9m sabers Surprise why?)))))
          1. Parabelum
            Parabelum 15 May 2013 14: 12
            +1
            Quote: tomket
            and if you give an example of how a Chinese pilot on la-9 drove several sailers into a defensive circle, say a fiction ????

            There is talk about LA9 and F86

            Quote: tomket
            downed MiG-15 fury and mustangs do not surprise you, and La-9m sabers Surprise why?)))))

            No one claims anything like this in the comments. This is what you added on your own for a red word. And if it were, then I would sincerely be surprised and say that this is all a lie.
            1. tomket
              tomket 15 May 2013 14: 30
              0
              MENTIONED IN AIRCRAFT AND COSMONAUTICS IN THE ARTICLE ABOUT THE CHINESE AIR FORCE, I DO NOT REMEMBER THE DISCOUNT NUMBER. UPDATE
              1. Parabelum
                Parabelum 15 May 2013 15: 28
                +1
                Found about the case that you mentioned MiG15 against Sea Fury.
                In July 1952, Oceanic aircraft began to collide with North Korean MiG-15s operating in the Taecheon-Nampo-Pyongyang triangle. On July 26, four MiG-15s attacked the Sea Fury group, which managed to evade the strike and even damage one of the MiGs. On August 8, 1952, the first victory over a jet fighter was marked. On August 9, at 06.30 am, the four Sea Furies under the command of Lieutenant P. Carmichael were attacked by eight MiG-15s north of Nampo. None of the Sea Furies received any damage, while one MiG was allegedly shot down by P. Carmichael and exploded on impact on the ground. A little later, the four Sea Furies were again attacked by MiGs from the direction of the sun. Lieutenant Clark's plane was shot down, in which the outboard fuel tank caught fire. The flight commander Lieutenant H. McEnri, covering the wrecked car, fired a long burst of cannons, damaged one MiG, and the enemy stopped the attack. Lieutenant Clarke succeeded in throwing off the burning tank, side-sliding the remaining flames, and successfully landing the aircraft on an aircraft carrier. On the same day, MiGami was hit by another Sea Fury, but the pilot managed to land successfully in the area of ​​Chodo Island. On August 10, the group of Lieutenant P. Carmichael was again attacked by eight MiGs. Two MiGs were allegedly damaged, and the Sea Fury received no damage.
                My opinion has not changed, LIES. The four SFs were attacked by eight MiGs and not one SF was not damaged, but one MiG was shot down .. bullshit ..
                1. Fitter65
                  Fitter65 15 May 2013 16: 39
                  0
                  In principle, this could be, it’s something like the battles of I-153 and Messers. Seagulls can’t attack, they only snarl, the thin ones make mistakes knock them down.
                  It’s true that everything is logical with Sea Fury and Migami in terms of the battle, but whose question was MiG? Ours didn’t go to this area. PLA fighters didn’t seem to be in that area either, judging by the number of mistakes made by pilots, Inexperienced North Korean pilots remain? But even these days they have not recorded MiG-15 flights in this area. The truth is I looked for materials on these facts even 13-15 years ago. Therefore, I do not have the British themselves except for the statement, again it would be this action is actually the frames of the PCF would still go like a hot feast zhki.A as though fighting and described as it might be, as they say net.I evidence Britta free.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Old warrior
    Old warrior 15 May 2013 13: 01
    +3
    Is your hero a fascist ace? No comments...
  • Fitter65
    Fitter65 15 May 2013 13: 43
    -1
    Quote: tomket
    and if you give an example of how a Chinese pilot on la-9 drove several sailers into a defensive circle, say a fiction ????

    Please, do not immediately bring PLA war sheets as evidence.
    Quote: Old Warrior
    Is your hero a fascist ace? No comments...

    My hero is the Soviet PEOPLE-WINNER, who defeated the superior tactically and technically enemy. If you at least had a little knowledge of the history of Soviet aviation, you would know that we were in the role of catching up throughout the war. And only heroism, at first, and later acquired knowledge of the enemy’s tactics, the development of their own tactics, which negated the superiority in technology and training, allowed the Luftwaffe to be defeated. How many hours of raid on La-5 did Kozhedub and Evstigneev have when they arrived at the front? And how many Barnhorns, Hartmanes, and away German pilots? So read, think, for fun, and then you can understand where the warriors were, and where the athletes are. And then, out of joy, after reading nonsense, they begin to slap their ears on the cheeks and scratch their chest with a blowtorch not just - it would be touching, but it makes you wonder at the complete illiteracy, both in the field of the history of aviation technology, its application, as well as about those people who flew on it. From the fact that you will happily jump and scream, blowing bubbles from all the cracks, reading all kinds of rubbish about the Great Patriotic War oyu, ay well done, ay real heroes, will not add glory to true HEROES, but will throw shit on their bright name. After such publications, anyone will have the right to say that the other victories of our Heroes were a linden. Therefore, it is necessary to write what was, and not what the author wants.
    Well, who of the grudge patriots with summer calls the top 10 coalition pilots, or the first five air rams? You’re grunting about your patriotism, and you can’t tell General Vorozheykin from Arseny Vorozheykin ...
    1. tomket
      tomket 15 May 2013 14: 14
      +2
      oops, the second part of Hartman’s flight book that no one saw in their eyes is credibility, but do not bring PLA war sheets, How is that?))))) do not believe the documents?))))
      1. Skuratov
        Skuratov 17 May 2013 21: 59
        0
        I agree!!! Believe the tales of the propaganda of the Reich and not believe the military documents, which were not intended for propaganda !!! The top of democracy.
    2. Old warrior
      Old warrior 18 May 2013 15: 29
      0
      About the fascist ace - I’m not for you .a Guhbers, it hurts, the polemic quickly went on ...
    3. Alex
      Alex 26 August 2013 09: 57
      +2
      Quote: Fitter65
      but it makes you wonder at complete illiteracy

      Just as surprising is the complete lack of logic and common sense among some admirers of the Teutons. As if it is still not known about the scale of postscripts and fraud that bloomed in double colors in the Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe. However, what I want, I believe in that.
      By the way, there was no such bacchanalia in Kriegsmarin. It is probably quite difficult to attribute an undestroyed ship.

      Quote: Fitter65
      shit in their bright name will throw

      Dumb and blind worship of the enemy (and not for the cause, but for outright lies) does not glorify our people either. By the way, it is by such methods that the current followers of Goebbels throw shit at the bright names of our heroes.

      Quote: Fitter65
      Therefore, it is necessary to write what was, and not what the author wants.

      I absolutely agree with this thesis, which concerns you first of all with your admiration for Hartman with his fantastic figures.
  • Fitter65
    Fitter65 15 May 2013 14: 19
    +1
    Quote: tomket
    downed MiG-15 fury and mustangs do not surprise you, and La-9m sabers Surprise why?)))))

    Well, at the expense of shooting down the MiG-15s with piston Sea Fury (fury deck-based fighter created on the basis of Saber) and the Mustangs, the issue is debatable, although the description of the situation in which the shooting was plausible is a blunder. decided to go with the less speedy Sea Fury, as a result the speed loss, so as not to collide with the tail of the Sea Fury, went down, since there was no speed to go up, slowly crawled ahead and lower of the Sea Fury, whose pilot took advantage of the moment om.Pro La-15 that caused Sabers to get into a defensive circle or where not heard or read.
    1. Day 11
      Day 11 15 May 2013 14: 26
      +1
      About La-9 --- tales! IMHO
  • Fitter65
    Fitter65 15 May 2013 15: 28
    0
    Quote: tomket
    oops, the second part of Hartman’s flight book that no one saw in their eyes is credibility, but do not bring PLA war sheets, How is that?))))) do not believe the documents?))))

    And here is the second part of Hartman's flight book, and to whom is it authority? By the way, the flight book is a document, but there is no combat leaflet, it is a means of agitation. Therefore, it’s somehow. Give confirmation where and when the lone La-9 drove the Sabers group I’m at least situevina in which the MiG-15 Sea Fury brought down. So at least a brief description of the battle, how did he make them go to the defense circle, where he himself was, what was he doing? Fury MiGs hit, then Hartman flight books eryaet, as claimed by one puff.
    1. tomket
      tomket 15 May 2013 19: 32
      0
      I’ll definitely find that A&K number with a description of a rather extraordinary case as it turned out))))
    2. Alex
      Alex 26 August 2013 10: 01
      +2
      A fighter without a flight book is, like, a minister without a diploma (there was one so very professional in the Ukrainian orange Cabinet, Roman Zvarych, from Canada, by the way).
  • lilit.193
    lilit.193 15 May 2013 18: 38
    0
    Nifigose !!! I didn’t even know what it was! Allies are also called. angry
    1. Guhbers
      Guhbers 15 May 2013 19: 25
      -1
      The same Hartmann talked about the last battles at the final stage of the war as he attacked the Americans first, and then the Russians, and they thought that they were Americans and began to fight with each other:
      here at the end of the 12th chapter it is described: http://lib.rus.ec/b/155599/read
      1. Alex
        Alex 26 August 2013 10: 04
        +2
        And your favorite didn’t fly to the moon in 43? wassat Well, right, some kind of wizard against the backdrop of complete morons!
  • tomket
    tomket 15 May 2013 21: 18
    +1
    so, the battle was on 30 on November 1951 of the year. 16 fighters of the 4 IAP 2 Iad led the regiment commander Xu Zhouwen. But on the way to the island, the group was attacked by more than 30 American F-86 Saber fighter jets. In the ensuing aerial battle, the Chinese lost four to eight bombers and three fighters. According to Chinese data, in response, they shot down four "Sabers" and three were damaged, including the deputy squadron commander Wang Tenbao chalked up one shot down and three wrecked American aircraft. The Americans admit the loss of two cars, the third returned to the airfield with a mutilated cabin.
  • tomket
    tomket 15 May 2013 21: 19
    +1
    16 La-11 fought a heavy battle with Sabers, trying to prevent the F-86 from being closer to the X-NUMX than the 2 m. The Chinese claim that the Lavochkins shot down the 1000 F-4 and knocked out three: “This served as a precedent for piston victories fighter jets. ” On a personal account deputy. they include the wrecked Saber and two wrecked ones. Much later, the Americans recognized the loss of two F-86s in that battle, and Major Marshall, who really fell under La-86's cannons, returned to the airfield with a completely broken cab. The most interesting thing is that Wan Tenbao’s "piston" victory over the jet Saber was recognized even by the sworn enemies of the Chinese Communists - the Kuomintang.
  • tomket
    tomket 15 May 2013 21: 20
    +1
    Here is how Zhao Baotong later described the end of that battle:

    “The air battle broke up into several foci. The most fierce battle was over the island itself. Here our pilots had to face a number of difficulties. The fact is that the Americans, trying to destroy our landing, threw up to fifty vehicles on it. These aircraft were kept at low altitude. And our pilots, who provided direct cover for the landing, were forced to act in unusual conditions. I must say, they were able to quickly adapt to the situation. Using military cunning, they broke the defensive circle of the enemy’s aircraft, and then began to destroy the enemy’s closing aircraft with attacks from the rear hemisphere. During one of these attacks, the leader of the group set fire to an enemy aircraft. His wingman, pilot Sun Er, attacked the second car at that time, but at such close range that he nearly died. The plane crashed by him suddenly exploded, and pieces of the skin of the enemy machine dug into the plane of the Sun Era plane.

    In the course of the battle, one of the enemy groups managed to nevertheless take an advantageous position for hitting our landing. This was noticed by Ten Dice, who was at a low altitude with his group. Losing no time to climb, our pilots from below hit the enemy. The attack was unexpected for the enemy, because the radio guidance available on the island and usually warning of our actions were already disabled by bombers. The battle order of the enemy was broken, and two of his aircraft caught fire. The attacks from below did not allow the enemy to dodge the fire by leaving under our planes. With successive strikes, this group was driven away from the island. ”