Passions over the Oreshnik and beyond: Chinese research into the penetrating power of a kinetic warhead

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Passions over the Oreshnik and beyond: Chinese research into the penetrating power of a kinetic warhead

In November 2024, Russia used the Oreshnik missile in combat for the first time, hitting targets in Ukraine. This was truly good news, signifying that we were finally returning to production. missile medium-range complexes - nuclear carriers weapons for the rapid destruction of strategic facilities in Europe, which had been banned since the Soviet "Pioneer" missile, which was destroyed under the INF Treaty.

However, as often happens, the focus of discussion shifted slightly, and the main topic in the context of the Oreshnik missile system became its denuclearization—specifically, equipping its missiles with inert and possibly all-metal warheads instead of nuclear ones. After all, it was these warheads, engulfed in plasma clouds, that rained down on the Yuzhmash plant in Dnipropetrovsk in 2024, and which struck the Lviv region in 2026.




There's no doubt that the use of inert warheads on missiles of this type is largely motivated by "test firing" (full-scale tests without the use of nuclear warheads) and a demonstration of capabilities, along the lines of "we have such a weapon, and it works." Nevertheless, these warheads (not just the Oreshnik, but kinetic weapons in general) have attracted public and expert attention, resulting in the development of a large number of myths surrounding them.

One of them is the extreme penetrating power of inert multiple warheads, launched, for example, from an intercontinental ballistic missile. The theory is that since the missile accelerates them to enormous speeds, measured not in hundreds but thousands of meters per second, they can penetrate tens of meters of soil. This, in turn, would allow the destruction of underground command posts, missile silos, warehouses, and other strategic facilities.

But is this really true?

Tungsten rod in the Gobi Desert


If we were to simply replace the missile's nuclear warheads with identically shaped ones filled with inert entrails, their penetrating power would be minimal. Firstly, their cone-shaped warheads are not particularly conducive to ground penetration due to the application of kinetic energy over a large area. Secondly, the strength of their casing would clearly be insufficient, and the warhead would simply disintegrate upon impact with the ground at high speed—something cast in one piece would be needed.

But it is not cast in the sense of a solid metal block with the geometry of a standard nuclear warhead.

Theoretically (and that's right, theoretically), the most optimal option appears to be the use of solid-body warheads based on heavy alloys and, preferably, of a relatively small diameter. Essentially, we're talking about analogs of fin-stabilized discarding sabot projectiles for tank guns - heavy "crowbars" made of some kind of tungsten, which will pierce the ground at enormous speed.

The small diameter of such a striker will concentrate kinetic energy on a small area of ​​the ground being penetrated, increasing penetration. And its one-piece heavy alloy body will resist destruction far better than the ballast-laden body of an inert warhead.

A similar configuration of kinetic munitions also figured in information about the American "God Rod" project—a hypothetical (or perhaps not) project to deploy orbital launchers that would be capable of launching metal "rods" from space at hypersonic speeds at missile silos and other enemy targets without inflicting a nuclear strike.


However, it is not only the Americans who dream of space kinetic weapons using heavy alloy rods, but that is another matter story.

Well, what happens in practice?

This is where the Chinese entered the picture. In 2018, they conducted an interesting experiment in the Gobi Desert to study the penetration of high-speed strikers into soil. This wasn't done specifically to study the placement of such warheads on missiles, but rather to gain a general understanding of the interaction between the soil and the kinetic warhead of a space weapon, which impacts it at speeds of several kilometers per second. But the results were quite revealing.

For this experiment, a tungsten alloy rod weighing 140 kilograms was used, measuring 84 centimeters in length and 11 centimeters in diameter. The soil type with which the rod interacted was a mixture of sand and gravel with a density of 1800 kilograms per cubic meter.


Dimensions of the funnel formed by the tungsten rod

The speed with which the Chinese hurled the rod into the ground was monstrous by terrestrial standards—4650 meters per second—so one would think the crater's depth would have been impressive. But the "wow" factor was nonexistent. The rod created a crater just three meters deep and with a radius of 4,6 meters—the same result as a light aerial bomb. Moreover, it had a far greater seismic effect, collapsing the enemy's underground structures located beneath the epicenter of the blast.

Chinese military-themed publicists even joked that, supposedly, a large-caliber artillery A high-explosive fragmentation projectile would leave a similarly sized crater at a fraction of the cost and without the need for launchers. And it's hard to disagree with them here.

It didn't turn out very well, although much depends on the impact angle of the striker and the type of soil—rock will obviously penetrate more poorly than soft soil. But a poor result is still a result that clearly demonstrates that using rocket-powered kinetic energy to penetrate thick layers of soil isn't the best idea.

Causes


The reason for this is speed.

When the striker and the target interact at such a high velocity, penetration occurs according to the laws of hydrodynamics. In other words, the kinetic warhead in the contact zone begins to behave like a liquid. As a result, the material of the warhead, upon contact with the ground, plastically deforms and is ejected backward—in the direction opposite to the penetration path (being inefficiently expended).

In other words, very simply put, the rod gradually "wears down" during penetration, losing length, mass, velocity, and, consequently, kinetic energy. A similar effect occurs with tank fin-stabilized discarding sabot (FSA) projectiles: if you take a uranium projectile that penetrates 700 mm of steel armor at 1650 m/s and accelerate it to 2500-3000 m/s, its penetration will not only fail to improve, but may even decrease.

For the rod tested in the Gobi Desert, the Chinese calculated that the optimal flight speed should have been less than three times the speed of sound—then it would have been able to penetrate a much greater layer of soil. For strikers of other configurations (different mass, alloy, length, etc.), the optimal speed will, of course, differ, but the principle is the same: it's best not to accelerate to extreme values.

But not accelerating is also impossible. Upon atmospheric entry, rod-shaped warheads will experience relatively little deceleration (compared to standard nuclear warheads). Therefore, they will inevitably impact the Earth's surface at speeds of several kilometers per second.

Moreover, to somehow compensate for the negative impact of high velocity and inefficient use of striker material, it would be necessary to use not even rods, but natural pillars made of heavy alloys—several meters long and weighing a ton or more. But such strikers simply wouldn't fit into the missile's warhead.

In general, there are pitchforks here and there.
139 comments
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  1. + 13
    12 March 2026 03: 52
    In general, there are pitchforks here and there.

    So, the question is also about controllability. The absence of a warhead requires a direct hit on the target, and controlling a warhead at speeds of X km/s is impossible.
    1. +9
      12 March 2026 04: 35
      Quote: Puncher
      The absence of a warhead requires a direct hit on the object

      In short, the effect is minimal... A loud fart. feel
      1. -12
        12 March 2026 04: 59
        I don't understand anything, but it's very interesting:

        Everyone has seen the practical application of Hazelnut, there are results.

        So it works!
        1. + 37
          12 March 2026 05: 57
          They've seen the application, but what's the result? No one here has seen it. The Ukrainians have seen it, but they won't show it.
          1. + 18
            12 March 2026 09: 28
            If the result had been zero, or close to it, they would have been the first to shout about it joyfully. But they're keeping their mouth shut, which means there's a result.
            1. 2al
              + 14
              12 March 2026 10: 03
              After Oreshnik, they sent almost 10 more Iskander missiles to Yuzhmash and are now continuing to send UMPK missiles.
              1. +4
                12 March 2026 15: 11
                Now they continue to throw UMPK.

                Yuzhmash is already in the UMPK's destruction zone?
              2. 0
                12 March 2026 16: 32
                So what? One thing interferes with the other?
            2. + 10
              12 March 2026 12: 20
              Why show the enemy the results of their work? If the effect is zero, let them think their weapons are working perfectly. What's the point of giving the enemy information so they can fix the problems?
              1. + 10
                12 March 2026 14: 04
                It seems to me that the Oreshnik effect is not so much in its penetrating power, but rather in the West’s ability to intercept it, given that its main armament is tactical nuclear weapons.
                1. +1
                  12 March 2026 23: 01
                  May God grant that it always remains so.
            3. 0
              17 March 2026 17: 24
              You are arguing by contradiction, since the results are not indicated, then we can say the effect is close to 0,5... Neither one thing nor the other, then.
          2. 0
            12 March 2026 09: 36
            That's the key question: why are they silent? Why did the West immediately become alarmed? So the effect was so profound that it's worth thinking about! After all, a drug addict always screams when something doesn't work for us! Even a dagger wouldn't cut it, and here they're silent! As they say, reading between the lines, Oreshnik is something very dangerous! And their behavior only adds credence to that!
            1. +4
              12 March 2026 19: 56
              Quote: Rus15
              This is where the most important question lies: why are they silent? Why did the West suddenly become alarmed?

              Read about "them" from someone other than us. Then you'll get real information about why they're so alarmed, not just our perception of it.
              They were alarmed solely because it was very difficult to intercept. And that's important with a nuclear warhead, not with a crowbar.
        2. +2
          12 March 2026 14: 50
          We saw flashes. Are these the results?
      2. -1
        12 March 2026 09: 02
        Bolshevism is the essence of Russian civilization.

        Quote from Uncle Lee
        In short, the effect is minimal... A loud fart.

        Why aren't the Ukrainians shouting about victory then? What a pretext! No, they're keeping it under wraps and not showing our precise hit on the target to anyone, anywhere.
        1. +1
          12 March 2026 14: 51
          They're shouting as always. They just don't tell us.
      3. -4
        12 March 2026 13: 32
        This is just your opinion. The minimal effect of "Oreshnik" is hard to prove with facts. For some reason, experts didn't consider the use of "Oreshnik" to be a "loud fart" (well, with the exception of some skakuas).
        1. +5
          12 March 2026 14: 53
          Generally, it's not the absence of a beneficial effect that's being proven, but the beneficial effect itself. Proving absence is much more difficult. For example, a husband will never prove to his wife that he's not cheating on her if she's convinced otherwise.
    2. +6
      12 March 2026 06: 44
      Quote: Puncher
      and it is impossible to control a warhead at speeds of X km/s

      Well, no need.
      Not impossible.
      But, roughly speaking, the price of a warhead will change from the price of a “simple rod of magic metal” to the price of another ICBM.
    3. -6
      12 March 2026 13: 30
      This type of munition uses the principle of multiple rocket launchers. The missile's warhead carries dozens or even hundreds of refractory alloy rods. They will rain down on the target, and at least some will hit accurately.
      By the way, this was also noticeable during the tests of the "Oreshnik"; multiple hits on the target were clearly visible.
      1. +9
        12 March 2026 14: 55
        Well, the effect is like that of an MLRS. That's at best. Without a special warhead, this missile is practically useless.
    4. 0
      12 March 2026 18: 42
      Well, warheads can hit within a hundred meters or so. And if you have a starship, you can take out dozens of pillars at a time. One starship means one burned-out oil refinery. Fifty launches, and China will be in trouble if someone decides to press the big red button.
  2. +5
    12 March 2026 04: 39
    It's good that we don't have any Chinese people at our research institute.
    1. +4
      12 March 2026 05: 06
      It's good that we don't have any Chinese people at our research institute.
      They are omnipresent. They are everywhere. wink wink
      1. +3
        12 March 2026 05: 25
        Quote: Xenon
        They are everywhere

        -Don't pour in! We're not welcome there!
      2. +1
        12 March 2026 10: 39
        Quote: Xenon
        They are omnipresent. They are everywhere.

        And someone says this about Jews...
        You are right about the Chinese:
        We have a taiga in the Far East – if you look closely, there are twenty million Chinese in it!..
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. bar
      +3
      12 March 2026 09: 01
      Quote: Vitaly_pvo
      It's good that we don't have any Chinese people at our research institute.

      In fact, every fifth person on Earth is Chinese.
      1. +2
        12 March 2026 23: 28
        and every fourth one is Hindu 😇
  3. +2
    12 March 2026 05: 00
    The speed with which the Chinese threw the rod into the ground is monstrous by earthly standards – 4650 meters per second, so it seems the depth of the crater must have been impressive.

    Let me ask you a question. How did the Chinese accelerate this cylinder to 14 times the speed of sound?
    1. +5
      12 March 2026 05: 24
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      Let me ask you a question. How did the Chinese accelerate this cylinder to 14 times the speed of sound?

      They launched a missile. They have a ballistic missile testing ground there.
      1. +7
        12 March 2026 05: 55
        Quote: Puncher
        They launched a missile. They have a ballistic missile testing ground there.

        Well, maybe, although I haven’t found a word about this experiment anywhere except in the author’s article.
        What we do have is either about velocities of 1500 m/s or small penetrators. And nothing about a full-scale experiment using the data the author provides.
        1. +7
          12 March 2026 05: 58
          Essentially, you take a regular IRBM, attach a "penetrator," and launch it at a test site, then dig it out of the ground. Its velocity at the highest point will clearly be 5 km/s.
          1. -2
            12 March 2026 06: 00
            Quote: Puncher
            Essentially, you take a regular IRBM, attach a "penetrator," and launch it at a test site, then dig it out of the ground. Its velocity at the highest point will clearly be 5 km/s.

            In essence, the author presented something unverified.
            But in fact, a dozen such crowbars at once over a small area, if we take IRBMs, will clearly lead to something more than a dozen such craters...
            1. + 12
              12 March 2026 06: 10
              The website from Russia may not open. Here's a screenshot of the testing document page.
              1. +4
                12 March 2026 09: 39
                Quote: Eduard Perov
                The website from Russia may not open. Here's a screenshot of the testing document page.
                I think the article should have included both a link to the relevant page and this screenshot. This is standard, accepted practice of citing primary sources. Then no one would have even questioned it.

                I'm more interested in why the Chinese chose such a low-elongation blank. Even at the conceptual level, before any experiment was planned, it was clear that a BOPS-like design was required.
                It is possible that the required large-sized BOPS was difficult to fit into a missile without significant, and therefore expensive and time-consuming, modifications to the missile.
                1. +1
                  13 March 2026 02: 24
                  The fact that I didn't include a screenshot in the article—yes, that was a big mistake on my part. The website itself is unavailable in Russia, even though I included it at the bottom of the article, under "Photos used:."

                  As for the larger rod size, it's certainly necessary, but not the primary factor. The principle at work here is "we know what a centimeter is, so we can calculate a kilometer." Using an 84x11 cm rod as an example, we were able to generally demonstrate how it interacts with soil. Based on this data, we can calculate how many meters a projectile with different parameters and velocities will penetrate; accordingly, other soil types can be included in the calculations. The process of APFSDS (APFSDS) penetration of armor is modeled in the same way, although full-scale testing is certainly important.
              2. +1
                12 March 2026 13: 49
                Thanks, brother! At least I can read it in the original. It's always been some crooked translations and shady reprints. But here I read the full information in the original and have no questions! am am am am am
            2. +9
              12 March 2026 06: 19
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              But in fact, a dozen of these crowbars at once over a small area, if we take IRBMs, will clearly lead to something more

              You didn't quite understand the article. The author writes that at such a speed, metal encountering resistance is subjected to such pressure that it begins to behave like a liquid, thereby reducing penetrating power. This is an analogy (only in reverse) to why a shaped charge penetrates armor. It creates enormous pressure in a small area, causing the armor metal to behave like a liquid through which the shaped charge passes.
              1. +1
                12 March 2026 06: 53
                Quote: Puncher
                You didn't quite understand the article.

                Don't try to guess what I understood and what I didn't. Because the author contradicts himself with the words "according to the laws of hydrodynamics" and "wears down," and solid metals behave like liquids at the speeds and pressures of a cumulative explosion, which is 8-10 km/s.
                And in the article, the author discusses the insufficient penetrating power of kinetic weapons. Although the 140 kg cylinder isn't exactly impressive in terms of weight.
                However, a crater 3 meters deep and 9 meters in diameter would seem to correspond to a 500 kg HE bomb, and not some cheap projectile...
                The numbers are certainly legible in the fragment of the article cited by the author, but the hieroglyphs are not, no matter what the Chinese wrote...
                1. +8
                  12 March 2026 08: 24
                  Don't make things up for me or write nonsense. I've written in black and white (or for some, white and black, if you have the site's dark theme enabled) that penetration occurs in accordance with the laws of hydrodynamics during a high-speed strike. The head of the striker, which contacts the obstacle (ground), undergoes plastic deformation and its material is ejected in the opposite direction. This can be very, very superficially compared to grinding, in that the striker loses length and mass, as has been written about. What kind of crazy speeds of up to 8 km/sec are you talking about? I don't understand. The same processes occur when heavy-alloy fin-stabilized sabot projectiles strike armor at speeds well below 2 km/sec. And with the Chinese, with that rod in the Gobi, this started happening at Mach 3 and above. Read less about shaped-charge jets. However, read on, and perhaps you will learn that even in the case of cumulative ones, it is not just speed that is important.

                  I compared the size of the crater to a small aerial bomb. And then I wrote that the Chinese press had jokingly commented that an artillery shell would leave a similar one. The link I provided you mentions this. Are you trying to dig into something without knowing what it is?
                  1. -2
                    12 March 2026 08: 51
                    Quote: Eduard Perov
                    And the Chinese, with that rod in the Gobi, started doing this at Mach 3 and above.


                    If you had read the comment below, you would have understood that I added about 3 km/s that they behave like liquids.
                    Quote: Vladimir_2U
                    Although the article does mention that above 3 km/s, materials behave like liquids. We'll check it out if we can.

                    Quote: Eduard Perov
                    The same processes occur when heavy alloy fin-stabilized sub-caliber projectiles hit armor at a speed much less than 2 km/sec.

                    But this does not quite correspond to the behavior of liquids.

                    Quote: Eduard Perov
                    I compared the size of the crater to a small aerial bomb. And then I wrote that the Chinese press had jokingly commented that an artillery shell would leave a similar mark. The link I provided you contains this information.


                    Well, yes, that's exactly what I touched on. And a half-ton bomb is actually not exactly small, so now you're the one who's got your teeth into it, without knowing what...
                    1. +5
                      12 March 2026 09: 19
                      The problem is, you couldn't even get through the screenshot translation in Yandex Translate or the GPT chat. It says that hydrodynamic penetration begins at Mach numbers of 3 or more, which is a kilometer per second and some change. What 3 km per second you saw is a mystery. Therefore, discussing the plastic deformation of sub-caliber projectiles at speeds of plus or minus 1.5 km per second is completely pointless. The same goes for bombs, since a 203mm projectile, depending on the soil, can leave a more or less similar crater. Stop fluffing.
                      1. -2
                        12 March 2026 10: 03
                        Quote: Eduard Perov
                        What 3 km per second you saw there is a mystery.

                        Yes, I didn’t notice, it really is the speed of sound.
                        There's just one nuance - M is the speed of sound in the medium!
                        And here 1000-2000 m/s for the ground turns into 3 km/s or more.

                        Quote: Eduard Perov
                        Accordingly, talking to you about the plastic deformation of sub-caliber projectiles at speeds of plus or minus 1.5 km per second is completely pointless.

                        Yes, yes, the nuances are such... The BOPS don't even know that they are liquid...
                        So, moderate your ardor of revelation.
                        Including 203mm shells. Because 9 meters in diameter versus 7 meters at the same depth, that's almost twice the amount of ejected material. With, to put it mildly, a disparate range.
                      2. +2
                        12 March 2026 17: 04
                        There's just one nuance - M is the speed of sound in the medium!
                        And here 1000-2000 m/s for the ground turns into 3 km/s or more.

                        You're digging yourself in even deeper. Stop writing this nonsense, like about sub-caliber shells and so on.
                      3. +1
                        13 March 2026 03: 21
                        Quote: Eduard Perov
                        It says that at Mach numbers of 3 or more, the hydrodynamic process of penetration begins, and this is a kilometer per second with some change.


                        A diagram of a real experiment conducted at a test site in the Gobi Desert. A 140 kg tungsten rod, traveling at 4650 m/s (approximately Mach 13.5), created a crater 3.0 m deep and 4.6 m in radius.

                        2. Key findings (section 5)
                        The authors classify penetration modes depending on the dimensionless velocity number (
                        ):

                        Based on the internal friction penetration theory, a kinetic projectile penetration model was proposed to cover the existing impact range of ultra-high-speed kinetic weapons (Mach 5-15), and the velocity ranges at which the target transitions from solid penetration to semi-liquid and liquid penetration were proposed as the relative penetration velocity of the projectile and target increased: \(M_{*}\le 1.5\) solid penetration; \(1.5\le M_{*}\le 3.0\) semi-liquid penetration; \(M_{*}\ge 3.0\) liquid penetration.

                        Chinese researchers use this dimensionless number to classify ground penetration modes. The following boundaries are indicated in the "Conclusion" section (item 1):

                        — Solid state stage: The projectile and the obstacle (soil/rock) behave like solid bodies.
                        — Semi-liquid stage: A transitional regime where impact velocities begin to induce plastic flow of the material.
                        — Fluid stage: The impact velocity is so high that the resistance of materials is described by the laws of hydrodynamics (as a collision of two liquids).

                        Important clarification:
                        In this context, "Mach" is not the speed of sound in air (340 m/s), but the speed of sound in the obstacle material (in this case, the sandy-gravel soil of the Gobi Desert). Since the speed of sound in dense soils and rocks is significantly higher than in air, the values
                        correspond to ultra-high speeds of several kilometers per second (in the example, the speed indicated is 4650 m/s).


                        Quote: Eduard Perov
                        You're digging yourself in even deeper.

                        You don't seem to be aware that the M number is different for air and other media.
                        Expert...
                      4. +1
                        13 March 2026 05: 10
                        A diagram of a real experiment conducted at a test site in the Gobi Desert. A 140 kg tungsten rod, traveling at 4650 m/s (approximately Mach 13.5), created a crater 3.0 m deep and 4.6 m in radius.


                        We're done with you.
                      5. +1
                        13 March 2026 05: 11
                        Quote: Eduard Perov
                        It says that at Mach numbers of 3 or more, the hydrodynamic process of penetration begins, and this is a kilometer per second with some change.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        In this context, "Mach" is not the speed of sound in air (340 m/s), but the speed of sound in the obstacle material (in this case, the sandy-gravel soil of the Gobi Desert). Since the speed of sound in dense soils and rocks is significantly higher than in air, the values
                        correspond to ultra-high speeds of several kilometers per second (in the example, the speed is 4650 m/s)
                      6. +1
                        13 March 2026 05: 14
                        1 km per second is a sub-caliber projectile from a rifled gun. What kind of liquid is in the liquid?
                        This is something you should know, it seems...
                  2. bar
                    -1
                    12 March 2026 09: 09
                    Quote: Eduard Perov
                    I wrote in black and white that during a high-speed strike, penetration occurs according to the laws of hydrodynamics. The head of the striker, which contacts the obstacle (the ground), undergoes plastic deformation.

                    Let me ask you a stupid question. Why don't the same laws of hydrodynamics apply to the soil itself? Why doesn't it plastically deform, allowing the impactor to penetrate to greater depths? Perhaps those genius Chinese are missing something? recourse
                2. +3
                  12 March 2026 09: 44
                  However, a crater 3 meters deep and 9 meters in diameter would seem to correspond to a 500 kg HE bomb, and not some cheap projectile...
                  It's worth remembering that only part of the projectile's energy is expended on crater formation. The idea behind such a "space APFSDS" isn't to cause surface damage—that is, to create a crater. Ideally, in addition to considering the external damage to the soil, one should also evaluate the depth of the projectile's penetration, the degree and radius of soil fragmentation from the bottom of the crater to the point where the projectile stops. Only then can one evaluate the effectiveness of the munition. The article doesn't mention any of this. I can't comment on the Chinese original.
                  1. -2
                    12 March 2026 10: 08
                    Quote: abrakadabre
                    The idea behind such a "space BOPS" is not to cause surface destruction - that is, to create a crater.

                    Why not? More precisely, the main idea is a non-nuclear, powerful, very long-range, and irresistible strike. The strike target can also be area-based.
                    But a real ton penetrator can be completely different, I'm talking about proportionality, to show the results.
                  2. +2
                    12 March 2026 15: 49
                    Quote: abrakadabre
                    It's worth remembering that only part of the projectile's energy is expended on crater formation. The idea behind this "space APFSDS" isn't to cause surface damage—that is, to create a crater.
                    That's it!
                    That is, we need to consider the diagrams of the damaging factors of the shock wave propagation, and not the side-effect funnel (side-effect of the funnel).
              2. 0
                12 March 2026 07: 04
                Although the article does mention that above 3 km/s, materials behave like liquids. We'll check it out if we can.
                1. 0
                  12 March 2026 14: 38
                  This is pure fantasy for the layman. If this dummy had been dropped into a pool 4 meters deep, it wouldn't have penetrated it, right?
                  1. +4
                    12 March 2026 14: 59
                    Have you ever watched "Mythbusters"? They were doing just that with video evidence. The result: a bullet from a military rifle shattered into pieces upon impact with the surface. A shotgun bullet passed through the surface and remained lethal at a range of 0,5 meters.
            3. 0
              12 March 2026 14: 56
              Will he dig a pit for a 9-story building?
              1. 0
                13 March 2026 04: 27
                Quote: meandr51
                Will he dig a pit for a 9-story building?

                I think it's wider. But considering that, judging by the Chinese article, the cracks extend significantly deeper than the depth of the crater, building a nine-story building there is a lousy idea.
          2. +1
            12 March 2026 18: 45
            Nobody has ever heard of such a launch.
            Its speed at the highest point will clearly be all of 5 km/s.
            Well, at their own test site, they'll probably launch a rocket upwards, North Korean style. And the speed there is low at the top, then it picks up.
        2. +6
          12 March 2026 06: 05
          Here's one publication by Chinese journalists on this topic. The funnel diagram is also taken from there: https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/634360110
    2. +1
      12 March 2026 07: 07
      Yes, they dispersed it!
      4650 / 331 = 14,048
  4. -1
    12 March 2026 05: 48
    Judging by the impacts of hypersonic comets on Earth and the effects they produce, there's still room for improvement with dynamic impacts without warhead detonation. That is, the use of ultra-strong materials isn't necessary.
    1. +3
      12 March 2026 06: 36
      Quote: Former soldier
      Judging by the fall of comets to Earth at hypersonic speeds

      Mmm... Comets don't reach the Earth because they are made of ice and are destroyed in the upper layers of the atmosphere.
      1. bar
        0
        12 March 2026 09: 15
        But meteorites do reach far enough. Just remember the Tunguska event, which was comparable in effectiveness to a decent thermonuclear warhead. Incidentally, it's assumed that it was also made of ice, since no fragments of it have been found.
        1. 2al
          +6
          12 March 2026 11: 34
          Judging by the rubble, the explosion was airborne, and only the blast wave reached the Earth.
        2. +1
          12 March 2026 15: 01
          Did it just pass through the surface? There wasn't even a crater left.
    2. +2
      12 March 2026 11: 22
      Quote: Former soldier
      Judging by the fall of comets to Earth at hypersonic speeds and the effects they produce, it is possible to work with a dynamic strike without detonating the warhead

      Can you even imagine the size and mass of those comets? For such a projectile to even reach the surface, let alone for the impact to be noticeable?
  5. -3
    12 March 2026 07: 00
    Quote from Voronezh
    We have seen the application, but what is the result?
    No, a photo of a large crater was published! wink
  6. +7
    12 March 2026 07: 03
    Even before all the talk about the Oreshnik, a crater left by the Sarmat warhead's emitter was shown at the test site. It's 20 meters in diameter and 8 meters deep. I suspect something similar remains from the Oreshnik. Most likely, the strikes with inert "dummy" missiles were carried out for three purposes: combat testing of the carrier (primarily), demonstration, and only then inflicting practical damage.
    1. 2al
      -2
      12 March 2026 11: 39
      An important point is that the Oreshnik warhead is cluster munitions; the last strike on the Lviv air defense plant effectively destroyed both the buildings and the plant's infrastructure. But alas, the Ukrainians even increased their launches of long-range attack UAVs after that, further confirming that they are not manufactured in Ukraine.
  7. -4
    12 March 2026 07: 36
    Do astronauts also land in liquid form?
    A crowbar is taken, wrapped in thermal insulation, and a perfectly solid object flies toward the target. And then, the hole to hell will be a bit bigger...
    1. +1
      12 March 2026 13: 46
      Crowbars are already made from very refractory materials.
      In short, this is all pure hype. Is it true that there are bunker-busting penetrating warheads that can penetrate tens of meters before detonating (nuclear warheads are also possible)?
      The Chinese are simply spouting nonsense, that's all. Deliberate disinformation with very clear intentions.
      1. +3
        12 March 2026 15: 04
        They are not hypersonic. Some have a jet engine for diving deeper.
        1. 0
          13 March 2026 07: 54
          If we are talking about an ICBM warhead, then the speed in the final section is close to hypersonic.
    2. 0
      12 March 2026 15: 03
      Let's remember the precision of such a landing...
  8. 0
    12 March 2026 07: 49
    It would be nice to make the Oreshnik reusable, so that the stages could return for refueling.
    1. +5
      12 March 2026 08: 24
      Quote: Victal
      It would be nice to make the Oreshnik reusable, so that the stages could return for refueling.

      Shallow water, my dear fellow!!! It would be good to return the projectile's impact force back from the cannon. It hits the target and returns, like a boomerang, to the cannon. good drinks
  9. -1
    12 March 2026 07: 50
    It seems to me that they either got the speed of the dummy tested by the Chinese mixed up or lied (replacing m/s with km/h) - that's why the result is so funny.
  10. +3
    12 March 2026 09: 00
    In the Physics Department, we learned that a negative result is still a result, sometimes even more useful than a positive one. Because it forces you to revise your theory to a more accurate one that will fit these results. The Chinese have already tested it, so we don't need to conduct these experiments. We need to do it with different characteristics. Or maybe ours have already tested it all, and the results are just sitting there, for the right people, like in the DSP.
  11. 0
    12 March 2026 09: 01
    What nonsense. 140 kg and such a funnel.
    Perhaps these were EXTERNAL damages and the retort itself went to a great depth.
    I blame someone for misunderstanding someone and the information here is incomplete.
    1. -1
      12 March 2026 13: 17
      That's right - the core simply wasn't found, it's deep in the ground.
      1. -1
        12 March 2026 13: 42
        It's surprising that they weren't found.
        Or they found it, but the documents are classified.
        It is the depth of penetration of the core and the condition of the soil around it that are of greatest interest.
      2. 0
        13 March 2026 02: 49
        I was too lazy to look. They wrote that the dastardly heart patient behaved inappropriately, like the last liquid. Like he vanished.
        1. 0
          13 March 2026 08: 11
          Speaking of liquids, if you place ordinary water under high pressure... at 1000 atmospheres, a jet of water can cut concrete and even metal. So "liquid-like behavior" doesn't really tell you much.
          1. 0
            13 March 2026 12: 03
            When cutting, it's not the pressure itself that matters, but the pressure difference and flow rate. Pressure alone doesn't change anything.
            1. 0
              13 March 2026 13: 03
              A water jet at 1000 atmospheres of pressure would be quite powerful, to be honest. The water pressure at the bottom of the Mariana Trench is only slightly higher. The pressure there is constant, with no fluctuations. But if a bathyscaphe or other vehicle with an insufficiently robust hull were to enter, it would experience very unpleasant changes in its condition.
              1. 0
                13 March 2026 13: 20
                Pressure can be static (Mariana Trench, atmospheric pressure) or dynamic (cutting metal with water, lasers, or a cumulative explosion). These should not be confused.
                1. 0
                  13 March 2026 13: 23
                  So what? Will the result be significantly different? Does it matter what causes the destruction? Will it be a cut or a breach? The main thing is that there is destruction, and it will happen if the impact is strong enough.
                  1. 0
                    13 March 2026 13: 26
                    Initially, the conversation was about the depth of penetration of the crowbar.
                    1. 0
                      13 March 2026 13: 34
                      This isn't really that significant. Besides, judging the depth of the crowbar's penetration by the depth of the crater isn't entirely accurate.
                      Upon impact, most of the crowbar's kinetic energy will be converted into thermal energy, causing a kind of explosion. The crater is the result of this thermal explosion. But inertia, part of the momentum, will allow the crowbar to penetrate to a depth significantly greater than the crater. And the shock wave from the collision will penetrate even deeper, contributing to the destruction of whatever would become an obstacle to it.

                      Essentially, this experiment is pure sham. Would such a weapon be used to fire at loose soil or sand? If the comrades had decided to assess the potential damage, they should have chosen a target that more accurately simulated real targets: from a concrete bunker to buildings with adequate strength characteristics.
                      1. 0
                        13 March 2026 13: 44
                        In my first post, I wrote that the Chinese were simply too lazy to dig around and look for a crowbar. It evaporated. From a "thermal explosion."
                      2. 0
                        13 March 2026 13: 45
                        It's unlikely that it evaporated. Unless the tungsten was replaced with some kind of aluminum. laughing
                      3. 0
                        13 March 2026 15: 44
                        Have you never heard of sarcasm?
  12. +1
    12 March 2026 09: 04
    To accurately deorbit a material object, its orbital velocity must be reduced. This requires the same amount of energy expended as to launch it into orbit. Otherwise, the object (rod or otherwise), receiving a vertical impulse toward the ground, will descend along a ballistic trajectory, passing through the dense layers of the atmosphere and landing thousands of kilometers from the projection of the deorbit point on the ground. Accuracy is out of the question here. Only directed-energy weapons can be deployed in orbit to destroy targets on Earth. However, such weapons on Earth, for destroying targets in orbit, will always be orders of magnitude more powerful.
    1. 0
      12 March 2026 10: 15
      Only a fool would throw or shoot at a projection. The flight trajectory must be calculated taking into account all the factors involved, not just ballistics but also the planet's rotational offset.
      1. -1
        12 March 2026 16: 05
        This means that the "rod" will need a trajectory correction engine, a guidance system, and thermal protection for the device as a whole.
        1. 0
          13 March 2026 07: 50
          Quote: viktor_47
          This means that the "rod" will need a trajectory correction engine, a guidance system, and thermal protection for the device as a whole.


          No. The missile is equipped with multiple warheads, each with a target guidance system that compares the actual trajectory with the predicted one using GLONASS data. After passing the final trajectory checkpoint, the warhead releases its striking elements—the very same rods that travel the final section simply by inertia; they no longer require any correction. There will be slight deviations, but the CEP will be minimal, and given that this is essentially a salvo at the target, this is no longer critical.
    2. 0
      13 March 2026 08: 02
      What does orbit have to do with it? Firstly, hypersonic weapons don't reach orbit; their speed is still less than the first cosmic velocity. Secondly, hypersonic weapons differ from conventional ballistic missiles in that they fly in a controlled, guided flight, which ensures acceptable accuracy. Thirdly, the rods exit the warheads at a relatively short distance from the target and at a low altitude (but still beyond the reach of most air defense systems). The advantage of this method of engaging a target is the virtual impossibility of intercepting such a weapon. It's possible to intercept a warhead, even if it changes trajectory, but how can you intercept dozens of these rods that exit that warhead? No amount of SAMs would be enough, and anti-aircraft artillery shells would be useless...
  13. -2
    12 March 2026 10: 06
    Why did they only throw a crowbar? Didn't they have the imagination or funding for more? A pointed cone could have been used; the falling speed would be lower, and the kinetic impact during plastic deformation would be more powerful due to the gradual increase in contact area to the optimal penetrating power. The optimal diameter could be measured by inspecting the cone's deformation. A diamond bit could be added and the crowbar could be spun using grooves on the body or the fletching, which would turn the crowbar into a mega-drill. It would also stabilize the flight path.
  14. +1
    12 March 2026 11: 13
    I don't think they equipped Oreshnik with the "crowbar" without preliminary testing, both on simulators and in real-life trials. Only after confirming its effectiveness were they deployed to the Xoxles.
    Therefore, what the Chinese explored there is shrouded in fog...
    And one more thing: let's assume the crowbar turns into liquid upon impact. But the kinetic energy in the liquid remains. And everything happens because of kinetic energy...
  15. +1
    12 March 2026 11: 18
    Moreover, with a much greater seismic effect in terms of the collapse of the enemy’s underground structures located under the epicenter of the explosion.

    This short sentence highlights the most interesting information. Would this option be suitable for the Beskydy Tunnel?
  16. +3
    12 March 2026 11: 43
    Strike by simple kinetic warheads without explosives is like a bullet hitting a bag of sand. That's what I think.
    1. 0
      12 March 2026 13: 49
      Think about it. When it hits an obstacle, kinetic energy is converted into thermal energy. A bullet's kinetic energy is slow, and the effect is weak. But if you increase the amount of energy (higher speed, greater mass) by at least 10 times, the potential "sandbag" will be in for a real treat.
      1. 0
        12 March 2026 15: 45
        Increasing the energy of a bullet by 10 thousand times is equivalent to increasing the speed of the bullet by 100 times.
        We divide and multiply, and we get that the speed of a rifle bullet at the target will be approximately 80000 m/s. Yes, sir, you have exceeded the third cosmic velocity = 16650 m/s!
        1. 0
          13 March 2026 07: 44
          Read more carefully: "high speed, high mass." We increase the bullet's speed not by 100 times, but by 5 times, and the rest comes from increasing its mass (approximately 400 times).
          1. 0
            13 March 2026 10: 49
            The bullet weight is approximately 10*400=4000 g. Sub-caliber rod.
            The meeting speed is 5*800=4000 m/s - a railgun and nothing more!
            Well, we will get scalable Chinese experience.
            1. 0
              13 March 2026 13: 09
              Anyone interested in trying this experiment on themselves?

              In reality, however, the mass of the rods will be at least an order of magnitude greater.
              This is quite sufficient to cause damage to the target. Keep in mind that the attack will not result in a single hit, but rather approximately a hundred over a small area. So, a hundred such shells could hit a chemical plant, manufacturing facility, oil refinery, weapons depot, etc. And what would be the consequences? However, it is a quite effective weapon, especially considering that interception is virtually impossible.
              1. 0
                13 March 2026 14: 16
                Until there's a criterion for throwing mass/(area*depth) of destruction, this discussion is purely speculative. Hint:
                The mass of a 1-kt nuclear charge in a concrete-piercing shell is 59 kg. According to the hexagonal design, 14 of these could fit into a 1-ton warhead. One shell per hectare with maximum penetration—no need to check.
                1. 0
                  14 March 2026 08: 29
                  So what? Of course, tactical nuclear weapons have a highly destructive effect. But there are nuances: using tactical nuclear weapons in local conflicts is not very common, even among the super-brazen Yankees. And there are all sorts of other undesirable consequences, like radioactive contamination.
                  The use of such warheads with cluster rods is not subject to any restrictions, treaties, or international prohibitions. This is definitely a plus. They are sufficiently effective, combined with irresistibility and versatility. So, it's a perfectly viable design.
  17. +3
    12 March 2026 12: 07
    What is the article about?
    Will there be an effect from a dummy moving at a speed of km per second?
    There is an effect from the meteorite, but it is not tungsten!
    So the question is, what is the article about?
  18. 0
    12 March 2026 13: 23
    How can we and the Americans have bunker busters without Oreshniki that can reach 60 meters or more?
  19. 0
    12 March 2026 14: 22
    The rod created a crater just three meters deep and with a radius of 4,6 meters—the same result as even the heaviest aerial bomb.

    At 5 meters per second, the kinetic energy must be enormous. Where is it? Where did the energy go? Just a funny-looking crater? Maybe the rocks melted and turned to liquid? At the very least, the tungsten rod should have penetrated many meters.
    1. 0
      12 March 2026 15: 08
      He doesn't owe you anything. Meteorites don't go deep; they explode or remain on the surface. If I were designing a "penetrator" (I don't like foreign concepts), I'd bring it to 1000 m/sec near the ground, and then turn on the drilling head, maybe a jet-propelled one.
      1. 0
        13 March 2026 13: 27
        Incorrect. Meteorites are extremely rare on the surface, unless the impact velocity was minimal (trajectory at a minimal angle to the surface, strong deceleration). If the velocity is high and the meteorite has sufficient mass, it can penetrate to great depths.
    2. +2
      12 March 2026 15: 48
      The evaporation of one kg of water is equivalent to the fall of an ice floe weighing one kilogram in a vacuum from a height of 28,8 km.
      1. 0
        12 March 2026 23: 40
        What is the equivalent of evaporating one kilogram of ice?
        1. 0
          13 March 2026 10: 56
          Add the heat of fusion to the vaporization density. We were simply given the previous example when we were learning about the structure of the main condenser.
  20. 0
    12 March 2026 15: 38
    In a sub-caliber projectile, the core is made of tungsten.
    There is a solution: replacing tungsten with depleted uranium.
    So maybe we can do the same in Oreshnik?
    1. +1
      14 March 2026 19: 52
      A hollow tungsten cone with potassium inside is better. It burns like hell.
  21. +1
    12 March 2026 16: 13
    Quote: Ilya-spb
    Everyone has seen the practical application of Hazelnut, there are results.

    Really? Is this the video that shows Malevich's "Black Square"?
  22. +3
    12 March 2026 18: 02
    In fact, the Oreshnik is actually equipped with a nuclear warhead in real life, so the main objectives were achieved brilliantly.
    These are:
    1. The accuracy of the warheads' deployment is simply astounding. Even if they were equipped with a nuclear warhead, they would guarantee glassing for many kilometers around.
    2. The impossibility of not only shooting down warheads, but even tracking them.
    3. A show of force, given the medium-range Oreshnik. This was a signal to Europe. The fact that they failed to understand this and continue to push back speaks, first and foremost, to the insanity of the EU leadership.
  23. +1
    12 March 2026 18: 09
    Most likely, our guys have already tested the penetration of the blanks in real life during the testing of hypersonic missiles at the range.
  24. 0
    12 March 2026 18: 20
    Well, this “analog-net” situation has become a little clearer.
  25. 0
    12 March 2026 18: 23
    One simple logical argument: the kinetic energy of a tungsten rod won't exceed the chemical energy expended to launch it into orbit. Why bother with launching the rod into orbit when you can simply deliver the explosive directly to the target?
  26. 0
    12 March 2026 19: 42
    I wonder what would happen if we promote them?
    1. 0
      13 March 2026 02: 33
      Quote: al252ex
      I wonder what would happen if we promote them?

      but as?
      like a jump rope?
      Yula?
      What will twisting give?
      Will this change physics?
      Laws of kinetics?
  27. 0
    13 March 2026 02: 31
    Physics, you heartless science!
    1. +1
      13 March 2026 08: 34
      The Chinese have drawn some kind of flat funnel, the ratio of depth to diameter is approximately 0.2, but when meteorites fall, the ratio is usually 0.3-04, and the meteorites do not have the most optimal shape.
      Regarding effectiveness, underground structures can be damaged not only by the mechanical penetration of the impactor but also by the shock wave of soil compression generated at the point of impact. It doesn't matter what happened to the impactor—whether it survived, melted, or evaporated—the impact momentum will still transform into a compression wave.
      1. +1
        13 March 2026 13: 15
        Moreover, in real cases it will not be loose soil, but harder materials, such as concrete, in which the impact impulse is better distributed.
  28. 0
    13 March 2026 08: 55
    There's a significant difference between a sub-caliber projectile and a shaped charge. The former's goal is to reduce the impact area and, accordingly, require alloys and metals with maximum hardness and refractoriness. The shaped charge, however, originally used copper, makes no mention of hardness or refractoriness. It's safe to assume that the physical processes involved are different. It's easy to find test results on the effects of a sub-caliber projectile and a shaped charge on armor. While the former "breaks" armor, the latter burns through it. As an idea, you were able to create a plasma that travels ahead of the sub-caliber projectile, and in this case, the plasma melts the material (sand and soil), which then acts as a lubricant for the "scrap." While the plasma maintains its impact on the surrounding material, the "scrap" will retain its shape and kinetic energy, and I believe the penetration depth will increase significantly. Perhaps you and I came up with the idea that there in "Oreshnik"...
  29. 0
    13 March 2026 09: 19
    Chinese military commentators even joked that a large-caliber high-explosive artillery shell could leave a similar-sized crater at a fraction of the cost and without the need for launchers in orbit. And it's hard to disagree with them.

    I don't understand one thing. If a tungsten crowbar with insane energy left a crater like a fairly ordinary HE shell, then where did the energy from the crowbar go? Some went into digging the hole, but where did the rest go? What was on the surface? A huge flash of fire, or a massive shock wave in the air, or a seismic wave on the ground?
    This question is not answered, and therefore nothing is clear about the final result.
    1. 0
      13 March 2026 09: 53
      Quote: wlkw
      I don't understand one thing. If a tungsten crowbar with insane energy left a crater like a fairly ordinary HE shell, then where did the energy from the crowbar go? Some went into digging the hole, but where did the rest go? What was on the surface? A huge flash of fire, or a massive shock wave in the air, or a seismic wave on the ground?
      This question is not answered, and therefore nothing is clear about the final result.

      Meteorites can have speeds of 11-72 km/s, but they can completely evaporate and burn at altitudes below 25 km. Kinetic energy is spent on heating the air to high temperatures of 10-100 degrees, and upon impact, a lot of energy is spent on melting and evaporating the substance. This is why meteorite craters are not so deep, and this also applies to this "scrap".
  30. 0
    13 March 2026 10: 36
    Am I the only one who sees this as a Chinese hoax? They claim "Chinese research into the penetrating power of a kinetic warhead," but in reality, they say, "The rod created a crater only three meters deep and with a radius of 4,6 meters." So how deep did the rod penetrate? The size of the crater is completely secondary.
  31. +1
    13 March 2026 12: 02
    The Pioneer, which was targeted under the INF Treaty, was banned.
    "Pioneer" didn't fall under the knife, the marked one voluntarily sawed it off, just like "Osa"
  32. 0
    13 March 2026 14: 13
    Let them hit the Dnieper and everything will become clear.
  33. 0
    13 March 2026 23: 44
    Blah-blah! Having a club and getting punched in the face is a mixed bag for everyone! They might shove a club in your ear if you don't knock out the girls from the colored kindergarten with it...
  34. 0
    14 March 2026 15: 31
    The energy in 1 kg of TNT is approximately 4,5 MJ
    The kinetic energy of a solid body is equal to half its mass multiplied by its velocity squared. The calculations take 20 seconds. Let's assume the body weighs 1 ton and its velocity is about 3000 m/s. Then the solid will receive energy comparable to 1000 kg of TNT. Is that a lot?
  35. +1
    14 March 2026 22: 53
    A crater is certainly good, but the diameter, depth, color, and smell are missing, of course. And at what depth did they find the crowbar? Did the Chinese say nothing? That's strange, why? And when they use a concrete-piercing bomb, even the largest one, do they judge the result by the crater?
  36. 0
    25 March 2026 08: 46
    Show us Yuzhmash. Our satellites captured the results. However, even they don't seem to show it.