Fire control organization of the 1st Pacific Squadron - combat testing

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Fire control organization of the 1st Pacific Squadron - combat testing

In the previous article, I examined in detail the organization of fire control on the squadron battleship Peresvet using dials; now we move on to other means of communication between command posts and the plutongs.

Phones


Telephone communication is undoubtedly a good thing, but the Peresvet's gunners didn't have many telephones at their disposal. The lower battery, or gun deck, had four telephones:

1) In the spire compartment (nose);

2) On the right side of the bakery casing (apparently, it was adjacent to the third pipe towards the bow of the ship);

3) Near the ice machine (unfortunately, without having the drawings, I couldn’t figure out where it was);

4) In the admiral's cabin (stern).

In the upper battery, that is, on the upper deck, there were two telephone sets, one to the left and one to the right of the officer's galley casing - I may be mistaken, but I think they were located near the third pipe above the bakery.

Moreover, during combat, according to the combat schedule, one crew member was supposed to be on duty at each of the six aforementioned telephones. On the Peresvet, this duty was assigned to artillery the keeper, two divers, the commander's orderly, a clerk and a skipper.

In addition to those listed above, there were four more telephones—one each in the fore and aft turrets, as well as in the foretopsail and maintopsail. No personnel were assigned to them according to the battle roster.

How did it all work?

To make a call, you had to follow this sequence of steps:

1) The caller had to insert a pin into a special slot with the number of the telephone set he wanted to talk to, and then make a call by turning the handle of the telephone several times.

2) The person being called, upon hearing the ringing tone, had to make a return call in the same way - by turning the telephone handle several times, then picking up the receiver and saying "I'm listening!"

3) The caller, after receiving a return call, had to pick up the phone and speak.

4) At the end of the conversation, the caller, after hanging up the receiver, had to remove the pin from the number slot.

Overall, the procedure was lengthy, but it could be simplified. During a combat alert, enlisted personnel assigned to the telephone were required to keep the receiver off the hook at all times, and in this case, there was no need for a call or return call. Simply insert the pin, pick up the receiver, and speak. This method had the disadvantage of quickly draining the phone battery, but in combat, it was perfectly acceptable, as the battery was sufficient for the fight.

Since the telephones were not located at the guns, the transmission of information to them was carried out in the following way: having received an order by telephone, a lower rank had to loudly repeat it so that it would be received and repeated in the battery by the people assigned for voice transmission.

Speaking tubes


As for the speaking tubes, the design of the battleship Peresvet did not provide for their use in directing artillery fire. Consequently, at the time the "Instructions" were written in 1903, they were absent. However, orders for their manufacture and installation were apparently issued at the start of the Russo-Japanese War, and, in any case, they were installed before the battle of July 28, 1904. At the same time, the authors of the "Instructions" listed the intended locations for the speaking tubes, and, most likely, this is precisely how they were installed.

And according to the project it was assumed that:

1) Both conning towers will be connected by speaking tubes to each other and to the central post each.

2) The central post would be connected by a separate speaking tube to each gun emplacement of the lower and upper batteries (that is, to all gun emplacements that housed 6-inch guns). Gun emplacements in the same group would share a common tube, which would terminate in two mouthpieces—one for each gun emplacement. Furthermore, speaking tubes were planned to be run from the central post to the under-turret compartment of each turret. As for communication between the turrets and their under-turret compartments, speaking tubes were already in place and were not required.

3) The forward conning tower was connected via a speaking tube to the forward turret, and the aft conning tower was connected to the aft turret. This was deemed necessary due to the excessively long time it took to transmit information to the turrets. Without these tubes, a message would first have to be transmitted from the conning tower to the control room, then from the control room to the under-turret compartment, and only then from the under-turret compartment to the turret itself. Clearly, a direct link between the 10-inch turrets and the conning towers was the obvious choice, but there was one obstacle: the speaking tube between them was completely unprotected and could be quickly disabled by combat damage. Nevertheless, it was clearly better to have this option than to have none at all.

Interestingly, before the forward conning tower was connected to the control room via a speaking tube, voice communication between them was accomplished as follows: a fire hose was lowered through a special port from the overhead deck to the control room, manned by a senior diver on the overhead deck. He relayed orders from the forward bridge to the control room.

Voice transmission and orderlies


It may seem strange, but voice transmission on the battleship was quite advanced.

According to the battle schedule, two quartermasters were to be stationed on the forward bridge, acting as orderlies to the commander and senior officer. They were to relay orders to the foredeck.

On the outrigger deck, they were received by two other quartermasters, stationed at the forward bridge. Their task was to transmit orders to the outrigger battery and through the hatches to the upper battery. The senior diver, as mentioned above, was responsible for communications with the control post, and two gunners of Baranovsky's guns, since the latter were unusable in naval combat, were to transmit orders to the 10-inch gun turrets.


In the upper battery, two sergeants and two quartermasters were responsible for voice transmission. In the lower battery, there were the same number, but in addition, there was a quartermaster and a senior topman, responsible for voice transmission to the capstans and the admiral's cabin, respectively.

On the living deck, voice transmission was to be carried out by two line quartermasters and two engine room quartermasters.

As for orderlies, there were no other orderlies besides those assigned to the commander and senior officer. However, if necessary, plutong commanders could dispatch a report from either a low-ranking gun crew member or one assigned to voice transmission. For this purpose, each of the four sergeant majors (two in the upper and two in the lower battery) carried tear-off sheets of paper and pencils, which the plutong commanders could use to transmit not only verbal but also written reports.

Sound signals


I won't go into detail about this method of transmitting information. I'll just note that, in general, signals to the starboard side were given by drum, and to the port side by bugle. A total of four pairs were assigned to a battleship: a drummer and a bugler. One pair was stationed on the upper bridge, one pair on the upper battery, and two pairs in the lower battery. All four pairs were required to repeat the signal given from the bridge.

How effective were all these forms of communication? Let's look at the Battle of Shantung, which took place on July 28, 1904.

Dials in battle


Of the six Russian battleships, I only lack data for the Poltava. On the Retvizan, the dials were disabled at the end of the battle; their imperfections were noted, but it was reported that they were nonetheless quite useful. On the Pobeda and Sevastopol, the dials remained operational until the end of the battle, but there are no comments from the Pobeda's officers on their usefulness or shortcomings, while on the Sevastopol, they did not play a primary role in fire control. On the Peresvet, the circuit was broken before the Japanese ships could be brought within 43 cable lengths, the maximum range at which fire could be controlled using the dials. However, the battleship's gunnery officer still criticized them—both the dials themselves and the sound signals (bells).

On the Tsarevich, the dials frequently failed due to contacts becoming clogged with gunpowder smoke.

On the Diana and Pallada, the dials functioned quite satisfactorily throughout the battle, but on the Askold, they were disabled by the very first hits on the cruiser. By the end of the battle, either 7 or 10 dials were broken (officers' accounts differ) and in many places the wires connecting the dials into a circuit were broken.

Overall, our officers rated the dials highly, while acknowledging the need for further improvement. Increasing the firing range to 80-100 cables was deemed essential, and the 12-inch gun turrets also needed to be equipped with special dials to allow for the main caliber to be zeroed in. Perhaps the only negative comment came from the Askold's officers, who stated that the dials were completely unsuitable for a cruiser with exposed guns due to their rapid failure, and that fire control should be organized using other methods.

Phones in combat


On the Askold, the telephones, like the dials, were deemed useless, as the service had failed early in the battle. But on other ships, the telephones were viewed more favorably.

Officers aboard the Tsarevich emphasized the importance of telephones, but also noted their shortcomings. Due to the limited number of telephone stations, it was proposed to create a separate communications system for the ships' gunners. Telephones suffered from frequent breakdowns, with up to 10% constantly in need of repair. Simplification of telephone use was suggested, as a forgotten pin in the heat of battle could block the entire telephone station. In combat, telephone communication was inferior to speaking tubes. A proposal was also made to allow a single telephone to be used simultaneously at multiple stations.

There were also positive reviews. On the Peresvet, the aft turret's fire was controlled via telephone, with no shortcomings mentioned. On the Sevastopol, telephones, along with speaking tubes, were cited as the primary means of communication with the Plutongs.

Speaking trumpets in battle


They performed remarkably well. For example, on the Peresvet, fire control was conducted via speaking tubes to the upper and lower batteries, and from there via voice transmission. A speaking tube also provided communication with the forward turret. The senior gunnery officer on the Peresvet considered this form of communication superior to all others, which, in their opinion, were inadequate. On the Retvizan, the usefulness of the speaking tubes was also noted, their only drawback being their poor protection, which is why they were broken. On the Sevastopol, as already mentioned, speaking tubes, along with telephones, became the primary means of communication between the conning tower and the guns. The same was true for the Tsarevich, where the senior gunnery officer's orders were transmitted first via speaking tube to the control room, and from there to the battleship's turrets.

Unfortunately, there is no information about the Pobeda, and the only mention I know of of fire control systems on the Poltava was of communication with the aft 12-inch turret via a speaking tube.

Voice communication in combat


In this case, voice communication refers to orders received via telephones or other means of communication and transmitted by voice to gun crews.

Apparently, voice communications were used on all ships in the squadron, but reports only mention it on four ships. On the Retvizan, its great usefulness and widespread use were noted, but they specifically noted that due to the intense Japanese fire, they were forced to remove the crew from above, organizing communications "lower." The idea is quite clear—to remove crews from unarmored decks below, but unfortunately, I have no specific information about how voice communications were organized "lower."

The Askold reported that voice communications were the primary means of communication, as all other communications had quickly failed. However, voice communications were also poor, and distance reports were poorly audible. The Askold's officers concluded that there was no satisfactory way to resolve communications issues on a cruiser with exposed artillery, and therefore recommended equipping each gun with a rangefinder. Meanwhile, the Diana's voice communications were undisputed, and were described as satisfactory.

Voice communications were used on the Peresvet, but it's difficult to draw any conclusions about it from the reports. Since the battleship's senior gunner praised the voice tube communications, and the information transmitted through them was transmitted to the guns in the batteries via voice communications, it's likely there were no complaints about voice communications.

Sound signals in combat


There was almost complete unanimity regarding the drum and bugle. Officers on the Peresvet, Retvizan, Tsarevich, and Askold asserted that both drums and bugles were practically useless in combat. On the Tsarevich, they noted that the drum was completely inaudible, and the bugle extremely poor. Unfortunately, it's not entirely clear how things were on the Diana, but even if they were, it was an isolated case, not the norm.

Orderlies in battle


There are virtually no mentions of them, although, of course, orderlies were used for "artillery" purposes. For example, on the Retvizan, they "greatly assisted communications with the aft turret" (hussars, keep quiet! – author's note).

Here I would like to point out one very important point. The Russian imperial fleet He preferred to save weight on the aft conning towers, which were considered unnecessary. But the battle brought its own adjustments: the visibility from the forward conning tower to the stern was poor, and controlling the aft 12-inch turret from there, with the enemy positioned at the sharp angles of the stern, proved quite a challenge.

Overall, combat experience revealed the following: the dials performed well, but needed significant improvement, and speaking tubes proved to be the most effective of all other communication devices.

Let us now move on to the organization of artillery affairs in 1907.

To be continued ...
79 comments
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  1. +4
    6 March 2026 04: 45
    My respect, deeply respected Andrew!
    The article is excellent.
    Thank you very much for compiling this disparate information on fire control on the ships of the Port Arthur squadron in one place. It was very interesting and informative.
    1. +5
      6 March 2026 11: 57
      Thank you, dear colleague!
      Quote: Comrade
      Thank you very much for collecting in one place the disparate information on fire control on the ships of the Port Arthur squadron.

      I've been meaning to do this for a long time, and here it is...
      1. +1
        6 March 2026 14: 16
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I've been meaning to do this for a long time, and here it is...

        Good afternoon, Andrey. The next series of comparisons is clearly in order: artillery fire control on enemy ships.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  2. +6
    6 March 2026 05: 21
    Articles like these are much more interesting than yet another rundown of the shortcomings of some ships. As if other navies had nothing but strengths.
    1. +2
      6 March 2026 11: 58
      Quote: MCmaximus
      Such articles are much more interesting than yet another clarification of the shortcomings of some ships.

      Well, I wouldn't say so. The story of Retvizan and the Tsarevich garnered over 50,000 views per article, and the first article in this series slightly exceeded 4,000.
      1. +1
        6 March 2026 14: 05
        To each his own. Personally, for me, it's like this. So, I'm speaking for myself. Of course, it's more interesting to dig around in metal boxes.
        1. +2
          6 March 2026 18: 06
          Quote: MCmaximus
          For me personally, it's like this.

          Yes, that's true, of course. drinks
  3. +3
    6 March 2026 08: 50
    A good article to help you understand the connection state on the 1TOE.
  4. +3
    6 March 2026 08: 51
    As always, very informative and interesting. As always, thank you so much for the article!
    1. +2
      6 March 2026 12: 04
      And thank you for your kind words! hi
  5. +3
    6 March 2026 09: 57
    Good afternoon.
    Dear Andrey, thank you for continuing the series.
    It was considered essential to increase the firing range to 80-100 cable lengths; it was also necessary to equip the turrets of the 12-inch guns with special dials that would allow for sighting in the main caliber.

    You can wish for anything, but how can you put it into practice? There are only four large-caliber guns, and their rate of fire leaves much to be desired. The number of rounds per barrel needs to be increased, as well as a new sighting method and an improved targeting and aiming system.

    During this period, the French developed sighting techniques and improved the aiming system for both medium- and large-caliber turret guns. Sighting was accomplished using a 10-second interval between shots. Firing adjustments were made continuously, and the data was transmitted to all guns. To facilitate turret aiming, a removable Marcq-Saint-Hilaire system was used, which could be replaced if damaged by shrapnel. However, this only applied to medium-caliber guns mounted in turrets. I don't know whether this system was used on turrets in the Russian Imperial Navy, but judging by the available photographs, it was not. And most importantly, all this required time, which we did not have.
    Guidance system;
    1. +4
      6 March 2026 12: 07
      Quote: 27091965i
      You can wish for anything, but how can you put it into practice? There are only four large-caliber weapons, and their rate of fire leaves much to be desired.

      That's true, but the Japanese did shoot and sometimes hit. And we did too, but much less often.
      Quote: 27091965i
      It is necessary to increase the number of shells per barrel, as well as develop a new sighting method and improve the guidance and aiming system.

      In 1907, the approach was different, but more on that in the next article. And in 1904, the battle in ZhM demonstrated that, for all its importance, combat beyond 6 inches still falls into the category of "foreplay," with limited results and high ammunition consumption. Nevertheless, shooting skills at such distances are essential.
      Quote: 27091965i
      The French developed sighting techniques at that time.

      Sorry, I don't understand - 1903? 1907?
      1. +2
        6 March 2026 13: 53
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        That's true, but the Japanese did shoot and sometimes hit. And we did too, but much less often.

        Apparently, the Japanese had calculated firing tables for these ranges. A case in point is the trials of Kane's 6-inch guns, which included calculating firing tables for ranges up to 10000 meters. This was a requirement of the Navy Ministry, and not only to calculate but also to fire up to 10 shots to monitor the gun's performance. This occurred in 1891, when the French were planning to begin combat at a range of 3000 meters, or at most 4000 meters. Why the admirals of the Russian Navy didn't notice this "peculiarity" is unclear.
        Sorry, I don't understand - 1903? 1907?

        In general, this and other methods were officially adopted in 1894.
        1. +1
          6 March 2026 17: 58
          Quote: 27091965i
          Apparently the Japanese had calculated firing tables for these distances.

          I think you are right, but tables are not even half the story, although they are, of course, important.
          Quote: 27091965i
          It is unclear why the RIF admirals did not pay attention to this "feature".

          Again, I don’t understand - which one?
          1. +1
            6 March 2026 19: 11
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            I think you are right, but tables are not even half the story, although they are, of course, important.

            The fact is that in 1900, "TRAITÉ DE BALISTIQUE" was published, based on artillery experiments conducted by the Le Havre Artillery Commission. It examined calculations for firing tables for large-caliber guns with a range of up to 15000 meters. According to the calculations, up to five shells were required for zeroing. Clearly, these calculations required further refinement, but the Japanese apparently took note of them and quite possibly tested them in the Battle of the Yellow Sea.
            Quote: 27091965i
            It is unclear why the RIF admirals did not pay attention to this "feature".

            Again, I don’t understand - which one?

            Reviewing the French and British artillery test reports, one gets the impression that the Russian Imperial Forces were, so to speak, a "sleepy kingdom." Perhaps these reports were reviewed in Russia, but they weren't given much attention and no conclusions were drawn.
            Well, the peculiarity is that the French considered various uses of naval artillery. Therefore, they compiled firing tables for extended ranges, developed shells with high-explosive explosives, and paid attention to armor-piercing shells. This also demonstrates the level of scientific development in Russia at the time. A "sleepy kingdom," but that's my opinion.
            1. +4
              6 March 2026 19: 28
              Quote: 27091965i
              It is clear that these calculations required some revision, but apparently the Japanese paid attention to them.

              Unlikely. Before the war, they only trained to fire at 30 kbt; as far as I know, they didn't conduct any long-range training, much less zeroing at 12 inches.
              Quote: 27091965i
              That's why they compiled firing tables for extended ranges, developed projectiles with high-impact explosives, and paid attention to armor-piercing projectiles.

              Objectively, pyroxylin was an acceptable explosive for AP shells, but melinite, which the French were so keen on, was not. Our armor-piercing shells were quite good, if you ignore the filling, but then again, of what other countries had, pyroxylin or smokeless powder were probably the best, and we had both. We tested AP tips and even made it to the war. So I really don't see where we're at:)))) Another issue is that, considering AP shells to be the absolute best, no one considered extending their combat range beyond their effectiveness—that's true. But that's an error of judgment, considering the lack of funds for proper high-explosive shells... or for shells at all.
              1. +2
                6 March 2026 19: 45
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Objectively, pyroxylin was an acceptable explosive for AP shells, but melinite, which the French were so keen on, was not.

                It's enough to look at how many years pyroxylin was studied in Russia and what kind of "filling" the 12-inch armor-piercing shells had when they entered the war.
                While melinite wasn't suitable for armor-piercing shells, it was excellent for high-explosive shells. The French, by 1894, had achieved very good results. If we compare the timeframes of pyroxylin research in Russia and melinite research in France, the results are clearly not in our favor.
                Unlikely. Before the war, they only trained to fire at 30 kbt; as far as I know, they didn't conduct any long-range training, much less zeroing at 12 inches.

                The French had their own training artillery detachment, I can’t remember the exact distances from memory, but I’ll look and write.
                1. +3
                  6 March 2026 21: 30
                  Quote: 27091965i
                  It's enough to look at how many years pyroxylin was studied in Russia and what kind of "filling" the 12-inch armor-piercing shells had when they entered the war.

                  Yes, the work was carried out by the Shatko Research Institute (Valko Research Institute), a well-known Russian institution. Nevertheless, some shells were still equipped with pyroxylin—both 6-inch and 10-inch shells. The rest were smokeless. And this was much better than black powder in armor-piercing rounds. But the French also managed to stuff melinite into armor-piercing shells...
                  Quote: 27091965i
                  but it was perfectly suited for high-explosive shells

                  Indeed. Although the "wonderful" part is questionable – there's some suspicion that gunpowder wasn't the only culprit in the explosions of the French battleships.
                  Quote: 27091965i
                  The French had their own training artillery detachment, I can’t remember the exact distances from memory, but I’ll look and write.

                  Thanks in advance. I wrote about the Japanese—in the Battle of Arthur, when their fleet was engaged by three of our cruisers, they justified their failure by saying they were learning to fire at 30 kbt, but here they had more.
                  1. +2
                    6 March 2026 21: 48
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    But the French managed to stuff melinite into their BB shells.

                    Andrey, it all depends on when the issue was considered. The order to develop steel semi-armor-piercing shells filled with melinite was issued in 1896. We're used to writing "filled with melinite" everywhere, but in fact, these are different compounds used for high-explosive, semi-armor-piercing, and armor-piercing shells, each with its own proportions. Pure melinite was used in the form of small pellets, but not always.
                    In my comment, I was referring to a high-explosive shell. An armor-piercing shell could also be considered, but you have that instruction. In my opinion, the best is a 240mm cast-iron shell loaded with melinite.
                    By the way, the French spent almost a year considering whether to produce a steel semi-armor-piercing shell filled with melinite or not; it cost 2,5 times more than a cast iron one.
                    Indeed. Although the "wonderful" part is questionable – there's some suspicion that gunpowder wasn't the only culprit in the explosions of the French battleships.

                    In my opinion, the problem is in the gunpowder, since, according to the order of the Ministry of the Navy, shells filled with melinite were stored for six years, after which they were sent for reloading.
                  2. +3
                    6 March 2026 23: 58
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    But the French managed to stuff melinite into their AP shells too...

                    Andrei, good afternoon!
                    The French phlegmatized melinite, so AP shells penetrated armor, see the "Yena" experiments.
              2. +4
                12 March 2026 21: 29
                Good evening.
                The French had their own training artillery detachment, I can’t remember the exact distances from memory, but I’ll look and write.

                Dear Andrey, I looked at the French training shooting distances;
                main distances 3100 meters; 2500 meters; 2000 meters; 1500 meters,
                High explosive shells have a range of 4000 meters.
                Shooting at a distance of up to 5000 meters, when measuring the distance with a FLEURIAIS micrometer, significant errors were obtained, shooting was carried out rarely, 1899.
      2. +2
        6 March 2026 14: 06
        That's why smart people realized this. And they came up with the "Dreadnought." And the "Michigan."
      3. 0
        6 March 2026 14: 13
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        That's true, but the Japanese did shoot and sometimes hit. And we did too, but much less often.

        Did any of the ships at Tsushima have Fram tanks or other stabilizers to improve firing accuracy? Or did they have to navigate the waves?
        1. +2
          6 March 2026 18: 01
          Quote: Konnick
          Did any ship at Tsushima have Fram tanks or other stabilizers to improve firing accuracy?

          Passive ones - there were, but no tanks will solve this - the sailors fired at the moment when the ship, listing, seemed to freeze for a few moments
      4. +1
        7 March 2026 18: 10
        Good day, dear Andrey!
        At this point, an interesting question arises: based on what calculations and considerations was the rate of fire of 1,5 rounds per minute established for the 12" and 10" MTK turrets on our modern battleships of that time? (On the Borodino submarine-launched cruiser, it was actually 1 round every 2 minutes (according to the testimony of Shcherbachev, the 4th commander of the Orel's aft turret).
        Such a rate of fire, in principle, did not ensure independent sighting of the main gun.
        In these conditions, I fully support your thesis about the effective firing range of 12" and 10" of those times being 40-50 cables, which is due to the sighting range of 152mm guns...
        This is apparently true for the Japanese Navy as well!
        1. +3
          7 March 2026 19: 06
          Good evening!
          Quote: 65-73
          At this point, an interesting question arises: based on what calculations and considerations was the rate of fire of 1,5 rounds per minute established for the 12" and 10" MTK turrets on our modern battleships of that time?

          Purely technical reasons—and nothing else. There was a problem with the bolt; closing it required a lot of unnecessary movements... Then, when they modernized it, the rate of fire increased dramatically.
          Quote: 65-73
          This is apparently true for the Japanese Navy as well!

          Apparently, not quite. Technically, they fired much faster than our battleships. However, this didn't affect their rate of fire.
          1. +2
            13 March 2026 14: 59
            I found a GREAT article "Turret installations of the battleships "Andrew the First-Called".
            There are also data for the battleships of the Russian Navy.
            Piston breech block of the Rosenberg system for 8", 10" and 12" guns.
            Before the RYaV, for the 12" turrets of our EBRs, the breech was opened at an elevation angle of +2°, then the gun was moved to an angle of +10° for loading, after which it was lowered again to an angle of +2° to close the breech.
            The total opening and closing time of the shutter is 14 seconds, respectively, 28 seconds is just the shutter...
            Total loading time minimum 90 sec.
            1. +2
              13 March 2026 20: 38
              Quote: 65-73
              The total opening and closing time of the shutter is 14 seconds, respectively, 28 seconds is just the shutter...

              I don't remember, I had this information somewhere, I published it in one of my articles – about the loading cycle of our 12-inch rifles during the RYaV era. There... It was really dismal, if I remember correctly, even 90 seconds is still a good result. The main reason was that to close the bolt, you had to manually make an incredible number of turns.
          2. +1
            13 March 2026 16: 11
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            True, this did not affect the combat rate of fire.

            For your reference: In the Battle of Tsushima, the Oryol fired 97 12-inch shells:
            92 high-explosive,
            2 armor-piercing,
            2 segments,
            1 cast iron unloaded.
            1. +2
              13 March 2026 18: 31
              Quote: rytik32
              For your reference: In the Battle of Tsushima, the Oryol fired 97 12-inch shells:

              It's not a fact. 97 is more likely the total consumption of shells, including Madagascar shooting.
              And then - what did you want to say by this?
              1. 0
                13 March 2026 18: 34
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                What did you mean by this?

                Just for information. Aren't you interested?
                it's more like the overall consumption of ammunition

                This is the difference between what was on the morning of May 14 according to the interrogation protocol of Shvede and what the Japanese accepted into the treasury.
                1. +1
                  13 March 2026 18: 35
                  Quote: rytik32
                  This is the difference between what was on the morning of May 14 according to the interrogation protocol of Shvede

                  Apparently, he has another inaccuracy.
                  Quote: rytik32
                  Just for information.

                  Thanks, I know – I wrote about this. But still – thanks.
                  1. +1
                    13 March 2026 18: 38
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Apparently, he has another inaccuracy.

                    There might be an inaccuracy regarding cast iron ones, all the others are listed according to the state.
                    The Japanese have a second report, detailing what was received from the Orel in Maizuru before the transfer to Kure. It contains minor deviations, such as a "jump" of one 12-inch shell to a different type.
                    1. +1
                      13 March 2026 20: 35
                      Quote: rytik32
                      There might be an inaccuracy regarding cast iron ones, all the others are listed according to the state.

                      That's right. And that's most likely what they were shooting with in Madagascar.
                      1. 0
                        13 March 2026 21: 49
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And it was these that were most likely shot in Madagascar.

                        These are the ones they fired in Madagascar. 27 shells were used.
                      2. +1
                        13 March 2026 21: 59
                        So, the total consumption of Orel in Tsushima is 70
                      3. +1
                        13 March 2026 22: 03
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        So, the total consumption of Orel in Tsushima is 70

                        No. On the morning of May 14, 1905, there were 285 available. The Japanese accepted 188. The cost in the battle was 97.
                        How did you count 70?
                      4. 0
                        13 March 2026 23: 05
                        Quote: rytik32
                        How did you count 70?

                        Yes, it's very simple.
                        It is known that the Oryol departed Libau with 285 12-inch shells on board, namely: 72 armor-piercing, 144 high-explosive, 24 segmented, and 45 cast-iron. During the Hull Incident, the battleship did not fire its twelve-inch guns, and in Madagascar, according to various sources, it expended either 27 or 40 shells. When the Oryol surrendered, the Japanese had 188 305-mm shells, including 70 armor-piercing, 52 high-explosive, 22 segmented, and 44 cast-iron.
                        In total, it turns out that the total consumption of shells "Eagle" was 285 - 188 = 97 shells. Depending on which figure for the consumption of shells in the Madagascar firing is correct (27 shells or 40), in Tsushima the battleship used up either 70 or 57 shells.
                        Let's pretend that:
                        1. "Eagle" left Libava, having on board 72 armor-piercing, 144 high-explosive, 24 segment and 84 cast-iron 305-mm shells, and a total of 324 shells, that is, its cellars were completely filled.
                        2. In Madagascar, the "Eagle" used up 40 cast-iron 305-mm shells, and there were 44 of them, and a total of 284 shells of all types.
                        3. In the Tsushima battle "Eagle" did not fire cast-iron shells, the consumption of other shells was - 2 armor-piercing, 92 high-explosive and 2 segment shells, and in total - 96 shells of 305-mm. Accordingly, 188 shells of 305-mm caliber remained on it, including 44 cast-iron shells, which later went to the Japanese.
                        It is possible, of course, that only 27 305-mm shells were used up in Madagascar, in this case it can be assumed that the Eagle took less cast-iron shells than was calculated above - not 84, but 71 units.
                      5. 0
                        13 March 2026 23: 11
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        and 45 cast iron

                        Please indicate the source of this information.

                        I have not come across any records of the availability of cast iron shells.

                        Another mistake. For some reason, you assumed that the Oryol couldn't reload shells during the cruise. But the Oryol reloaded shells 100% of the time. Specifically, it overloaded 6-inch shells, more than it had been issued on May 14, 1905, than it had been issued when the squadron departed.
                      6. +2
                        14 March 2026 13: 12
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Please indicate the source of this information.

                        There isn't one, I once calculated it based on the cellar capacity. Of course, I could have overloaded it; I made that assumption at one time.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Another mistake.

                        I have no mistakes. I have assumptions with varying degrees of validity.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        For some reason, you decided that the Orel could not reload shells during the campaign.

                        But who would load 12-inch shells onto it, and why? And cast-iron ones at that?
                        In principle, since Orel seemed to have taken training equipment in addition to the set, Shvede could have been right about
                        Quote: rytik32
                        What happened on the morning of May 14, according to the interrogation protocol of Shvede
                      7. 0
                        15 March 2026 09: 55
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I once calculated this from the capacity of the cellars

                        There was no point in counting from the cellars.
                        Firstly, at Borodino, racks for shells were installed in the corridors specifically for storing excess supplies.
                        Secondly, these are unloaded ammunitions, they could have been placed anywhere.
                        Thirdly, you took data from another ship)))
                        But who would load 12-inch shells onto it, and why? And cast-iron ones at that?

                        Even according to your version, if there were 45 in Libau, and the Japanese unloaded 44, then they had to load more, otherwise the consumption at Madagascar would not match
                      8. +2
                        15 March 2026 11: 30
                        Quote: rytik32
                        There was no point in counting from the cellars.

                        When there is no precise data, no calculation should be ignored.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Even according to your version, if there were 45 in Libau, and the Japanese unloaded 44, then they had to load more, otherwise the consumption at Madagascar would not match

                        I agree. Therefore, the most likely version is that you are right and that the Orel spent 97 12-inch shells at Tsushima.
                      9. +2
                        15 March 2026 12: 19
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        When there is no precise data, no calculation should be ignored.

                        I agree. I recently read Shvede's testimony myself.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The Orel's consumption of 12-inch shells in Tsushima amounted to 97 pieces.

                        I also checked the Japanese records for the Senyavin. It had 160 10-inch shells remaining, which matches the data presented at the Nebogatovites' surrender trial.
        2. +2
          8 March 2026 01: 01
          Quote: 65-73
          in fact, even 1 shot every 2 minutes (testimony of Shcherbachev, 4th commander of the aft turret of the "Eagle"))

          Judging by the Orel's shell consumption, the turret fires one shot every two minutes. The gun fires one shot every four minutes.
          1. +2
            13 March 2026 15: 29
            Good afternoon!
            As Andrey already wrote above, the breechblock opening and closing cycle is 28 seconds. The total loading time for the electric-powered turrets of Russian EBRs (apparently, it's even worse for the hydraulic Poltava mounts...) is at least 90 seconds.
            In the excellent article "Turret installations of the battleships "Andrew the First-Called"
            The direction of modernization of 12" installations after the RYaV is also indicated -
            1. the use of a new circular system of charging cellars.
            2. Loading angle +5.
            3. Raising the charger simultaneously with opening the lock.
            4. Introduction of an electric drive for opening and closing the lock (5 sec. instead of 14 sec.!!!).
            5. Simplification of the electrical circuit and interconnectivity of the tower mechanisms.
            6. Increasing the speed of execution: gun rolling, ammunition loading, loading the loader.
            As a result: Loading cycle 28 sec. (previously it was only opening and closing the shutter).
            Tower rotation time horizon 180 - 75 sec.
            vertical guidance -5 : +35 - 14 sec.
  6. +3
    6 March 2026 13: 54
    In the previous article, I examined in detail the organization of fire control on the squadron battleship Peresvet using dials; now we move on to other means of communication between command posts and the plutongs.

    After reading the previous article, I was incredibly surprised at how they managed to get anywhere in such a mess. laughingWasn't it obvious to the artillery officers that something needed to change in "this conservatory"? Was conservatism clearly winning out back then?
    1. +3
      6 March 2026 18: 05
      Quote: Adrey
      Wasn't it obvious to the artillery officers that something needed to be changed in "this conservatory"?

      But why? Even heavy-caliber shells could penetrate battleship citadels at a maximum range of 20-30 cable lengths—it was obvious that we'd have to engage at that range, or even closer. In fact, our main projectile, the 12-inch AP shell, was intended for use at 20 cable lengths or less. If shells can't penetrate armor at long ranges, then no one would fight at those ranges, right?
      1. 0
        6 March 2026 18: 08
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        But why?

        I'm more talking about the indescribable "hodgepodge" of 152-75-47s under the control of a single officer. Okay, at long ranges for a 152. But at close range, when all the calibers are in action? I don't envy the battery and plutong commanders. What kind of fire control are we talking about there? And the effectiveness of fire, left to the gunners' mercy, is so-so.
        1. +4
          6 March 2026 19: 33
          Quote: Adrey
          I'm talking more about the indescribable "hodgepodge" of 152-75-47 under the control of one officer.

          No, I didn't write anything like that :)))) 6-inch and 75 mm, or 75 mm and 47 mm - that was true. 47 mm and 6-inch - that was true too. There weren't any three calibers anywhere, I think :)
          Quote: Adrey
          I don’t envy the commanders of batteries and plutongs.

          The main problem there, however, was the small number of officers. And there weren't many to be found—the fleet was rapidly expanding, and officers were in short supply. It's no wonder that not even all the plutongs were commanded by officers.
          Quote: Adrey
          What kind of fire control can we talk about there?

          At close range, a variety of calibers isn't a big deal. You've zeroed in with a six-inch gun, but what difference does it make to fire to kill—single 6-inch or 6-inch plus 75mm?
          Quote: Adrey
          And the effectiveness of fire, left to the mercy of the gunners, is so-so...

          Well, how was it? The Plutong commanders were required to check the sights.
          1. 0
            8 March 2026 15: 00
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            No, I didn’t write anything like that:))))) 6-inch and 75 mm, or 75 mm and 47 mm - that was it.

            Apparently I'm a bit confused) request.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            47mm and 6in - there were also.

            With the bow group of guns, everything is clear.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The main problem there is still the small number of officers.

            As was the "mixed-caliber" standard adopted at the time (and practically everywhere). And the ship's architecture itself didn't lend itself to the creation of large, "single-caliber" plutons and batteries. Such were the times. request
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            At close range, a variety of calibers isn't a big deal. You've zeroed in with a six-inch gun, but what difference does it make to fire to kill—single 6-inch or 6-inch plus 75mm?

            Well, how can I put it... The only saving grace was the lack of simultaneous engagement of targets of different sizes. Had the enemy attempted to launch even a limited and suicidal attack on destroyers, say, from the forward course, while simultaneously engaging in a line of battle, the chaos would have been indescribable.
            1. +2
              8 March 2026 16: 29
              Quote: Adrey
              Let the enemy try to simultaneously carry out a battle in the line, even a limited and suicidal attack with destroyers, say, from the forward course angles and the mess would be indescribable

              First of all, those who decide to do this.
              In general, Skrydlov, during his command of the Port Arthur squadron, worked on something in this spirit, but in real conditions no one began
              1. 0
                8 March 2026 17: 03
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                but in real conditions no one did

                Therefore, the outcome is completely unpredictable. There were no precedents. request
      2. 0
        6 March 2026 18: 19
        It seems as if there was no centralized fire control for small-caliber artillery at all. Officers simply don't have time to be distracted by these "firecrackers" when there are six-inch guns in full swing.
        1. +2
          6 March 2026 21: 31
          Quote: Adrey
          One gets the impression that there was no centralized control of small-caliber artillery fire at all.

          In general, something like this:)))) The point is that they were not equipped with dials, commands were transmitted to them by voice, and they clearly shot where the "big guys" did.
        2. +3
          7 March 2026 12: 38
          Quote: Adrey
          One gets the impression that there was no centralized control of small-caliber artillery fire at all.

          Excuse me, but what is the purpose of "centralized control" in this case?
          Small-caliber guns are used against destroyers and boats; there's no time to wait for the senior gunner to spot an enemy attack, to calculate, or to check dials. Once you spot the enemy in your sector, you slew the gun, brace yourself against the shoulder rest, and fire before the enemy gets any closer. The ranges are negligible, and the fire is practically point-blank...
          1. +1
            7 March 2026 20: 39
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            Excuse me, but what is the purpose of "centralized control" in this case?

            For example, for target designation. Later, during WWII, it was precisely the lack of target designation that rendered numerous small-caliber anti-aircraft guns, such as 20mm automatic rifles, of little use. Gunners simply don't understand which direction to repel an attack from first, and they simply don't see the target until the very last moment. They need guidance, and there are observation posts at the top for that.
            1. +1
              7 March 2026 22: 07
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Later, during WWII

              Don't confuse destroyers with airplanes.
              1. 0
                8 March 2026 21: 37
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                Don't confuse destroyers with airplanes.

                The problems are the same.
                1. +2
                  9 March 2026 11: 06
                  And not close.
                  WWII-era aircraft flew at different altitudes, at different speeds, could drop bombs from level flight, or they could dive, and you couldn't do without PUAZO.
                  Destroyers of the Russian Navy operated, so to speak, in two-dimensional space. Their speed was relatively low, and the effective range of their torpedoes was negligible.
                  1. 0
                    9 March 2026 12: 21
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    The speed is relatively low, and the actual effective range of the torpedoes is negligible.

                    And yet, we regularly see descriptions of situations involving destroyers sneaking up undetected and unfired. The problem of organizing and controlling small artillery fire was certainly present. hi
                    1. +2
                      9 March 2026 15: 12
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      And yet we regularly see descriptions of situations with destroyers that have crept up unnoticed and unfired.

                      But, of course, centralization of small artillery fire would have allowed the enemy destroyer to be noticed in time. laughing
                      1. -1
                        9 March 2026 21: 28
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But, of course, the centralization of small artillery fire would have allowed for timely NOTICE

                        So you didn't notice the phrase "organization and management"? There were 500 people on board, so someone probably did, but it wasn't always possible to get the information to the spotters in a timely manner.

                        By the way, you already have two articles in this series, but you haven't written anything about fire control yet. It's all about organization and communication channels. wassat
                      2. +2
                        9 March 2026 22: 39
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Well, there are 500 people on board, someone probably noticed.

                        Saksakhors, make up your mind - one moment your destroyer approaches unnoticed, and then you suddenly say, "Oh, there are 500 people there, how could it have gone unnoticed!" :))))
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        but it wasn't always possible to convey information to the spotters in a timely manner.

                        It's always funny when you start making excuses. According to you, although the fire of 75mm and larger guns was controlled centrally, this somehow didn't prevent the Japanese from approaching undetected, but if small-caliber guns had suddenly been controlled centrally, then, of course, no destroyer would have gotten through. laughing
                      3. -1
                        11 March 2026 08: 53
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        How could he have gone unnoticed!

                        Can't you just read the whole paragraph? Do you need to poke your nose in it?
                        ..it wasn't always possible to convey information to the spotters.

                        The question for you is, where is that fire control that you haven’t written a word about in two articles in a row? tongue
                      4. +3
                        11 March 2026 10: 01
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Can't you just read the whole paragraph? Do you need to poke your nose in it?
                        ..it wasn't always possible to convey information to the spotters.

                        As I wrote earlier
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It's always funny when you start making excuses.

                        That is, it was not possible to convey the information to the 75mm gunners despite centralized control, but it will certainly be possible to convey it to the 47mm gunners thanks to centralized control. laughing
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        The question for you is, where is the fire control?

                        In articles.
                  2. 0
                    13 March 2026 21: 05
                    The Japanese torpedoes' effective range isn't all that short...
                    If I am not mistaken, the same senior officer of the Peresvet submarine patrol indicated in his report that the Japanese destroyers did not approach closer than 15-17 cable lengths, carrying out torpedo attacks from a fairly large distance.
                    1. 0
                      15 March 2026 11: 39
                      Quote: 65-73
                      The Japanese destroyers did not approach closer than 15-17 cable lengths, carrying out torpedo attacks from a fairly large distance.

                      With the corresponding result?
          2. 0
            8 March 2026 15: 10
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            Excuse me, but what is the purpose of "centralized control" in this case?

            Yes, at least prioritize the goals.
            1. +2
              8 March 2026 16: 25
              Quote: Adrey
              Yes, at least prioritize the goals.

              At the current technical level, this is a bit of a pointless exercise.
              The naval artillery is divided into plutongs.
              A plutong is a group of guns, usually of the same caliber, capable of firing simultaneously at one target.
              This very plutong has its own firing arc. If an attacking destroyer is within it, the plutong's guns will fire at it. That is, if a ship is attacked from the starboard bow, the port plutongs will not participate. If there are two ships in the arc, they will fire at the one closest, since torpedoes have a short range and must close the distance before launching. And any shells that miss will go to the ship following behind.
              It was later that artillery began to be positioned so they could fire on both sides, and torpedo ships significantly increased in size and speed, while torpedoes had a longer range. This necessitated target designation and distribution.
              1. 0
                8 March 2026 17: 06
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                At the current technical level...

                Thank. I know.
                1. 0
                  8 March 2026 20: 47
                  Quote: Adrey
                  Thank you

                  Nema for Sho feel
  7. +4
    6 March 2026 14: 07
    Quote: Adrey
    Wasn't it obvious to the artillery officers that something needed to change in "this conservatory"? Was conservatism clearly winning out back then?

    In 1906, S.K. Kulstrem, who had once commanded the Baltic Fleet's artillery training detachment, wrote a book criticizing the current approach to artillery. He particularly criticized the widespread view that artillery officers were only supposed to understand the technology, while gunnery was the domain of gunners.
    That's how things were!
  8. +2
    6 March 2026 18: 59
    On the Diana and Pallada the dials worked quite satisfactorily throughout the battle.

    It's worth noting that the "goddesses" hardly participated in the battle, always trying to stay as far away from the enemy as possible.

    On the other hand, Peresvet (who sustained the most hits from the Russian ships) and Askold (who managed to squabble with Asama and come under fire from Yakumo and the "dogs") fought at the forefront of the battle. Their assessments are of the greatest interest.

    As far as I remember from Peresvet, the reason for the dials' failure wasn't a broken wire (which was easily repaired), but rather the failure of the dials themselves from the shock of gunfire and impacts. They simply crumbled. Telephones, however, turned out to be poorly insulated and failed en masse when nearby explosions flooded combat posts. Tellingly, the Japanese had anticipated this and successfully made do with messengers.
  9. +1
    6 March 2026 22: 27
    It was considered mandatory to increase the firing range to 80-100 cables

    The maximum range of 12"/40 guns in those turrets (+15 degrees) is 80cab with the "old-style" shell. And if you fire (as you suggest) at the bottom of the roll, it's less. Were the firing tables calculated to that range? What kind of rear sight should I use, even if a dial/feasible one could cover that distance? We'll leave the mythical 80cab for hitting Yakumo in the LM (even with 6") for...
    1. +2
      7 March 2026 11: 41
      Quote: anzar
      Were the firing tables calculated to such a range?

      Preparing tables is no more difficult than increasing the distances on a clock face:)
      1. 0
        7 March 2026 12: 43
        Preparing tables is no more difficult...

        Did they calculate it using point formulas? I wonder how they entered the projectile shape coefficient? By interpolation from practical shooting? (Aerodynamics back then...) And they should have verified it by shooting.
        ...how to increase the distances on the dial:)

        It's as easy as pie :) We just change the numbers. The scale doesn't start at 5, but at 15 cables, and each division represents 1 cable, not 0,5 (we still need to sight it in...) Voila—we have 86 cables, further than... Of course, we then replace this fidget spinner with new ones.
        1. +4
          7 March 2026 12: 57
          Quote: anzar
          Did you calculate the scores using formulas?

          Конечно.
          Quote: anzar
          Interpolation from practical shooting?

          Yes. We took several reference points (range at a specific elevation angle) and moved on.
          Quote: anzar
          It's as easy as pie :) We just change the numbers. The scale starts not at 5, but at 15 cables, and each division represents 1 cable, not 0,5.

          And we get a thin nonsense (why should the nonsense be complete?), since the accuracy should have been set to 1/4 cable
          1. 0
            7 March 2026 13: 17
            And what we get is some skinny nonsense...

            Which is better than nothing. While the sailor is running with the note, the distance will have time to change more. And at longer distances, the accuracy error of rangefinders is much greater. But yes, when adjusting by zeroing, you need... 1/2 cable))
            the accuracy should be set to 1/4 cable

            That's too much for that time. 150-foot accuracy? With a target height of 30 feet and a 9-degree angle of incidence at 52 kb. Half a kb is enough.
            Yes, greater accuracy is always better, but without fish...
            1. +2
              7 March 2026 13: 51
              Quote: anzar
              which is better than nothing.

              However, the device will perform worse at a distance of less than 43 kbps.
              Quote: anzar
              While the sailor runs with a note

              Why a sailor? Speaking tubes
              Quote: anzar
              This is too much for that time.

              These are instructions from 1907.