Military Review

Two Russian generals. On the choice of P.N. Krasnova and A.I. Denikin during the war

138

I understand how you can not like the policy of the authorities, argue with the laws adopted and expose corrupt officials. But I can never understand how you can be born in a country, live in it and not love it.


The overwhelming majority of my relatives, friends, and acquaintances, like myself, considered the Yeltsin power to be criminal and destructive for Russia. We said with pain in our hearts that Russia is now in trouble, that the patriots are barred from making decisions, that the gangsters and oligarchs are plundering what they once built more than one generation of Soviet people. But with all the hatred of power, none of us could have had a spew like “rashki” or “erefii”. Looking at today's events, I wondered: how do these people really relate to their country? Whose side will they take, will the war happen tomorrow? And I remembered история about two White Guard generals.

Once upon a time there were two Russian generals, Anton Ivanovich Denikin and Peter Nikolaevich Krasnov. Served as feats of arms of Russia, but they took care of honor. And so the Bolsheviks came to power. Fiercely the generals hated them and fought them for life and death. They fought, but lost. But neither the red checker nor the bullet commissar generals did not get it. Both successfully left Russia and lived in exile.

20 years have passed. 22 June 1941 of the year they hated the Soviet Union was attacked by the most powerful army of that time.

Maybe someone could naively believe that Hitler’s plans were to liberate Russia from Bolshevism in a speedy manner, and without touching anything else, to return to their territory. But I doubt that the highly educated leaders of the White Guard movement, the color of Russian emigration, believed that Adolph started a charity at the expense of the lives of German soldiers.

They perfectly understood that this war would go to destruction, and defeat in it would mean that Russia would disappear forever from world maps.

And here the paths of the generals diverged. Anton Ivanovich was able to abstract himself from hatred and in the 1939 year, realizing what was going on, he called on emigrants not to support Germany in a possible war with the USSR. After the occupation of France, in which he lived, he firmly rejected all the proposals of the Germans for cooperation. But on the very next day after the start of the war, Pyotr Nikolayevich said his famous phrase: “I ask you to convey to all the Cossacks that this war is not against Russia, but against the communists, Jews and their minions selling Russian blood. God help the German arms and to Hitler! ”And in September, 1943, when the most naive people in the world had no doubts about the mass atrocities of the fascists, General Krasnov led his last campaign against Russia as the head of the Main Cossack Directorate of the Imperial Ministry of the East occupied territories of Germany.

Generals left this world in one year. 16 January 1947 of the year by the verdict of the Military Collegium of the USSR Supreme Court Peter Krasnov was hanged in Lefortovo prison, like a man who fought with his people. And on August 7 of the same year, General Denikin died of a heart attack at the University of Michigan hospital in Ann Arbor and was buried in the Detroit cemetery with military honors as commander-in-chief of the allied army.

Today, May 9, I would like to ask all oppositionists to ask one question: which way of the generals is closer to you? Anton Ivanovich or Peter Nikolaevich?
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138 comments
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  1. VADIMKRSK
    VADIMKRSK 12 May 2013 16: 11 New
    11
    I don’t know the story. Thank you for the article.
    1. Delink
      Delink 12 May 2013 16: 36 New
      +3
      http://www.biografija.ru/biography/krasnov-petr-nikolaevich.htm
      This is about Krasnova
    2. Reasonable, 2,3
      Reasonable, 2,3 13 May 2013 02: 01 New
      0
      .And it’s necessary - The best teacher. Krasnov, he spat on Russia, threw it to China, - and shot him there. And Denikin, he took care of the gold. I am Yegor Shilov, security officer.
    3. Reasonable, 2,3
      Reasonable, 2,3 13 May 2013 05: 52 New
      0
      It is necessary to love the country, and the rest is coming. And history is the best teacher. Everyone says so, but they climb to Russia. Will we teach again ?.
      1. stroporez
        stroporez 13 May 2013 13: 17 New
        0
        Quote: Reasonable, 2,3
        Need a country -LOVE

        here it all starts ........ Toko is not about liberalists .......
  2. tupolev-95
    tupolev-95 12 May 2013 16: 12 New
    31
    Out of hatred of the Bolsheviks, Krasnov was ready to sell his soul to Hitler even to the devil. The opposition is sold to anyone anyway, but exclusively for money.
    1. Nick
      Nick 12 May 2013 16: 53 New
      10
      Quote: Tupolev-95
      Out of hatred of the Bolsheviks, Krasnov was ready to sell his soul to Hitler even to the devil. The opposition is sold to anyone anyway, but exclusively for money.

      This is the difference between them, but the result is the same - Betrayal of one’s own people, country.
      1. wax
        wax 12 May 2013 16: 59 New
        21
        And the result is different: Denikin did not betray his country, although he fought against the Soviet government during its establishment throughout Russia.
        1. the polar
          the polar 12 May 2013 20: 06 New
          -8
          I didn’t betray you, but who supplied the Denikin White Guard with equipment, weapons, ammunition, uniforms, who financed their “struggle for the liberation of Russia” and on what terms? Maybe god lord? The priests today say that in 1917 he also did not like the Bolsheviks.
          Learn History
          1. Alexl
            Alexl 12 May 2013 20: 39 New
            14
            Denikin did not fight against the civilian, but fought against the Bolshevik authorities. He did not betray Russia. The Bolsheviks also did not come to power with their pocket money.
            1. the polar
              the polar 13 May 2013 10: 54 New
              -5
              Quote: AleksL
              Denikin did not fight against the civilian, but fought against the Bolshevik authorities. He did not betray Russia. The Bolsheviks also did not come to power with their pocket money.

              And for the Bolshevik power in the civil war unleashed by the Reds, Denikins, Kolchaks, ordinary people fought. And that is why all these "patriots", having received from the simple Russian people - workers and peasants, armed resistance, fled to the West.

              And as for the "money for the Bolsheviks", it’s surely fed you with a "non-living history". Be treated.
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. de klermon
            de klermon 13 May 2013 01: 32 New
            +6
            Indeed, you should have taught the “polar" history! .. About how Lenin came to Russia, for example, how the tsarist government bought weapons for war on loans from the West ... What, should Nicholas II also be considered a traitor because of this? Civil war is when one part of the country is fighting with another part! And absolutely right in such a war never happens !!! Denikin fought only until April 4, 1920, and he is pure both before conscience and before the strictest court of honor, he fought for Russia, first of all for the one he swore, and Krasnov ... Krasnov became a traitor for the war against the USSR, against the only remaining the spokesman and heir to the idea of ​​Great Russia - that’s why he is a traitor! Traitor he because Man has one homeland, and everyone needs to love her, regardless of government! Did you read in the article that they buried Denikin as commander in chief of the allied army? Do you know why? No, read it! Read about how much, on what terms, and whom the "allies" actually supplied! After all, civilian has nothing to do with it! This is for your information!
            At the same address you are reminded that the words Lord God Russian people in Russian and all other languages ​​of the world write with a capital letter !!!
            1. the polar
              the polar 13 May 2013 10: 59 New
              -2
              Quote: de Klermon
              Indeed, you should have taught the “polar" history! .. About how Lenin came to Russia, for example, how the tsarist government bought weapons for war on loans from the West ... What, should Nicholas II also be considered a traitor because of this?


              It is you who do not want me to retell the Solzhenitsky-Pivovarov-Yakovlevsky “story”.
              Use it yourself and drink it with cabbage pickle.
          4. Denis
            Denis 13 May 2013 02: 48 New
            +2
            Quote: Polar
            supplied the Denikin White Guard with equipment, weapons, ammunition,
            And a lot, have they already failed?
            Not for that, they fed every shusher who ruined the Empire
    2. Uhalus
      Uhalus 13 May 2013 00: 03 New
      +7
      Krasnov didn’t even have so much hatred for the Bolsheviks as a longing for power, a desire to rule. At one time, he created a separate Don Republic and, as its ruler, of course, with himself. Well, much has been written about what the "German Cossacks" did in our country.
      Denikin was worried about Russia; he had, let’s say, his very vision of the Russian social system and, again, he didn’t stand the reds. But the USSR for him forever remained his Russia, which must be defended ... In difficult times, he turned out to be an honest man.
  3. avt
    avt 12 May 2013 16: 12 New
    21
    The Nazi lackeys are still building the Cossack, they have gradually changed their owners, judging by the maps of the dismemberment of Russia by the State Department published. He had long been at the service of the Germans, immediately after the 17th he started working for the Reichswehr. But when Kornilov came to the Don, how many Cossacks went with him to the “Ice Campaign”? And why didn’t he leave the Don? They don’t want to answer the Orthodox installers of the monument to Krasnov? And for them General Kaledin answered - he shot himself without enduring shame, like a man of honor.
  4. подводник
    подводник 12 May 2013 16: 16 New
    28
    Denikin Anton Ivanovich ..... general, man, patriot ....
    Krasnov Pyotr Nikolaevich .... just Judas ....
    1. FREGATENKAPITAN
      FREGATENKAPITAN 12 May 2013 18: 36 New
      18
      Quite right, I agree 100% .......... Anton Denikin was in a German concentration camp for refusing to cooperate with the Nazis in the fight against Soviet Russia ..... Secretly, on his own money, (even the Soviet government did not knew) sent humanitarian aid to the USSR during the war ................... A real officer, a patriot!
  5. treskoed
    treskoed 12 May 2013 16: 20 New
    +4
    God be their judge. May they rest in peace. ....But still............
  6. The comment was deleted.
  7. i12345
    i12345 12 May 2013 16: 29 New
    24
    Krasnov was hanged, and traitors were hanged (not shot) ....
  8. erased
    erased 12 May 2013 16: 31 New
    49
    Personally, I’m closer to the path of Generals Svechin and Brusilov, who went to the Red Army, Colonel Shaposhnikov, and those other officers who began to serve the people. Yes, the Soviet government is not a chocolate bar, not a sausage - it cannot be loved like a sweet. But this is the only power that was able at that terrible time to keep the state from complete collapse, even through some losses, able to repel the onslaught of whites, Entente and other enemies!
    That power, which in 20 years brought the USSR to world leaders and won the most terrible war so far!
    As for Denikin Anton Ivanovich, his personal tragedy is that he failed to perceive the basic idea of ​​a new country and fought against it for some time. However, he was a patriot and during the years of difficult trials managed to rise above personal insults and choose the right side.
    I respect him as an honest man and a brave patriot. Not everyone was able to say "no!" To the Nazis.
    As for the scum of Krasnov, the road is there too!
    1. Egoza
      Egoza 12 May 2013 16: 49 New
      33
      Erased! + 100! Indeed, one can only add that in due time both generals took the oath and served "For Faith, Tsar and Fatherland"! Yes, there was no Tsar, they tried to destroy Faith, but the Fatherland remained! Holy Russia! And it becomes clear who really fulfilled the oath to the end! By the way, like those Russian nobles who were in exile, but participated in the underground, saved the fugitives from concentration camps, and did not accept the Nazis as "liberators"! Honor and glory to them!
      1. erased
        erased 12 May 2013 16: 58 New
        +9
        Right. Those who have the concepts of “honor” and “fidelity” are embedded inside, false ideals can not be led astray.
      2. rexby63
        rexby63 12 May 2013 20: 18 New
        +4
        Without a doubt. You are a huge plus
  9. Humpty
    Humpty 12 May 2013 16: 37 New
    20
    In the fighting in Xinjiang against the Huist (Dungan), I'm sorry but they are called so, the rebels and Uyghur Basmachis, former White Guards and Red Army soldiers fought together in the late thirties.
    If Denikin had been in the Union during the war, then I am sure that he was given a worthy position.
    Krasnov worked his loop at 100.
    1. ruslan7608
      ruslan7608 12 May 2013 16: 50 New
      -7
      Maybe they gave the post, and in 37 they shot him as a White Guard general. Without thinking about the merits to the motherland
      1. erased
        erased 12 May 2013 17: 01 New
        21
        And how did it survive Shaposhnikov 37, and Rokossovsky and other officers of the tsarist army? Probably the executioner and the devil Stalin forgot about them, huh? Sclerosis is so temporary ... Read documents from archives. Everything is painted there - who whom and when and what then for it ... There is nothing to repeat the delirium of the Tolerasts and Democrats
        1. Humpty
          Humpty 12 May 2013 17: 44 New
          +9
          And General Fedorov and General Samoilo too.
          1. the polar
            the polar 12 May 2013 20: 11 New
            12
            Quote: Humpty
            And General Fedorov and General Samoilo too.

            And Bonch-Bruevich, and Brusilov and Slashchov, and many other tsarist generals and thousands and thousands of officers who served in the Red Army
            1. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk 12 May 2013 22: 41 New
              +1
              A miracle saved my great-great-grandfather of the former tsarist officer from execution.
      2. Seraph
        Seraph 13 May 2013 03: 28 New
        +4
        Lieutenant colonels of the tsarist army Karbyshev and Shaposhnikov were also tortured by the KGB?
        1. Denis
          Denis 13 May 2013 04: 57 New
          +2
          Quote: Seraphim
          Lieutenant colonels of the tsarist army Karbyshev and Shaposhnikov were also tortured by the KGB?
          About B.M.Shaposhnikov somehow unsuccessfully led
          He died of a serious illness, not having lived 44 days before the Victory. After his death in 1945, he was cremated; the ashes were placed in an urn in the Kremlin wall on Red Square in Moscow. Formally, it is the only Marshal of the Soviet Union lost during the Great Patriotic War.
          there are no Nazis, no Chekists
    2. RUS
      RUS 12 May 2013 17: 02 New
      +4
      If Denikin had not emigrated, he would have been shot as one of the commanders of the White Army.
      1. Mikado
        Mikado 12 May 2013 17: 36 New
        -2
        If Denikin had not emigrated, he would have been shot by his own people (well, or eliminated in some other way). For failures in the military company, he caused discontent from the soldiers to the generals.
      2. Humpty
        Humpty 12 May 2013 17: 46 New
        12
        Quote: RUS
        If Denikin had not emigrated, he would have been shot as one of the commanders of the White Army.

        Actually, Marshal Baghramyan was considered a White Civilian.
        1. albert
          albert 12 May 2013 23: 10 New
          +3
          Marshal Govorov also served at Kolchak.
      3. avt
        avt 12 May 2013 18: 34 New
        +4
        Quote: erased
        And how did it survive Shaposhnikov 37, and Rokossovsky and other officers of the tsarist army?

        Quote: Humpty
        And General Fedorov and General Samoilo too.

        Optical illusion laughing such as Surkov’s propaganda.
        Quote: RUS
        If Denikin had not emigrated, he would have been shot as one of the commanders of the White Army.

        Yeah, Slashchev taught at the Academy.
        1. Egoza
          Egoza 12 May 2013 19: 58 New
          14
          Quote: avt
          Yeah, Slashchev taught at the Academy.

          By the way, like Karbyshev ...
          Karbyshev brilliantly graduated from the Siberian Cadet Corps and in 1898 was admitted to the Nikolaev Engineering School. In 1900, after graduation, he was sent to serve in the 1st East Siberian Engineer Battalion, as the head of the cable department of the telegraph company. The battalion was stationed in Manchuria.
          Russian-Japanese, World War I

          During the Russo-Japanese War, as part of the battalion, he strengthened its positions, established communications, built bridges, and conducted reconnaissance in battle. Participated in the battle of Mukden. He was awarded orders and medals. The war ended with the rank of lieutenant.

          After the war he served in Vladivostok. In 1911 he graduated with honors from the Nikolaev Military Engineering Academy. By distribution, Captain Karbyshev was sent to Brest-Litovsk as the commander of a mine company. There he took part in the construction of the forts of the Brest Fortress.

          Member of the First World War from the first day. He fought in the Carpathians as part of the 8th Army of General A. A. Brusilov (South-Western Front). He was a division engineer of the 78th and 69th infantry divisions, then head of the engineering service of the 22nd Finnish Rifle Corps. At the beginning of 1915 he participated in the assault on the Przemysl fortress. He was wounded in the leg. For courage and bravery awarded the Order of St. Anne and promoted to lieutenant colonel. In 1916 he was a member of the famous Brusilovsky breakthrough.
          xxxxx
          It would seem much more? Although he immediately took the side of the Red Army, but his entire biography could serve poorly. However, he became OUR SOVIET HERO !!! And any patriot will bow to him.
        2. politruk419
          politruk419 13 May 2013 01: 13 New
          +6
          Quote: avt
          Yeah, Slashchev taught at the Academy.

          An indicative example is the way. For Slashchev really really drank blood from the Red Army like no other. He personally wandered around Perekop, went in saber attacks, led cavalrymen, sniffed all the coke from Melitopol to Dzhankoy, but the epaulette did not disgrace. And until his death he enjoyed great authority.
      4. Vadivak
        Vadivak 12 May 2013 20: 26 New
        +9
        Quote: RUS
        If Denikin had not emigrated, he would have been shot as one of the commanders of the White Army.


        Well, if Slashchev was not shot (he was killed by Lazar Lvovich Kolenberg for the death of his brother), then they could have mercy on Denikin

        November 3, 1921, on the anniversary of the capture of the Crimea, the All-Russian Central Executive Committee of the RSFSR declared an amnesty to the participants of the White Movement
        1. Denis
          Denis 13 May 2013 02: 37 New
          +1
          Quote: Vadivak
          The All-Russian Central Executive Committee of the RSFSR declared an amnesty to the participants of the White movement
          Then they announce much, and then ...
          How many people were executed after the amnesty?
          1. mamba
            mamba 13 May 2013 10: 12 New
            0
            Quote: Denis
            How many people were executed after the amnesty?

            Well, Zemlyachka would have broken her teeth about him, his fate would be decided in Moscow. And at that time he still had chances to survive at least until the 37th year.
  10. Aryan
    Aryan 12 May 2013 16: 43 New
    +6
    In Russa’s emigration, the question was often raised then.
    Which is better:
    Freedom or Homeland?
    1. Nick
      Nick 12 May 2013 16: 58 New
      +4
      Krasnov faced another dilemma: Honor or betrayal. He chose the second ...
  11. elmi
    elmi 12 May 2013 16: 49 New
    +6
    Russia is our mother and we are all her children. We all wish her good, but we often quarrel among ourselves, looking at things differently. And other countries are trying to rekindle these differences, thereby weakening Russia. I believe that if there were no civil wars in the future and big disagreements, it is necessary to cultivate love for the Motherland and its citizens from childhood, to instill the best character traits. Now the opinion of a person is difficult to change, sometimes they are right, but sometimes wrong, hence the disagreement. disputes, etc. From childhood, it is necessary to lay the foundation of knowledge in a person and in the future people will be decent, honest. And such people cannot be bought with a bribe, treason to the homeland. On such people, Russia will be reborn.
  12. Ruslan_F38
    Ruslan_F38 12 May 2013 17: 14 New
    14
    Denikin is a real Russian officer, Krasnov is a traitor. The author poses a question to the opposition, whose path is closer to them. Something you can not hear them, ay swamps where are you? Are you afraid or maybe everyone has died out?))
    1. Khamsin
      Khamsin 12 May 2013 18: 11 New
      10
      But don’t you know that they are afraid of the "shaggy hand of Moscow." Before the last election, Putin had a conversation with a rather wealthy man who became rich under Putin. Such a phrase sounded - if Putin is elected there will be a revolution .... At the end of his monologue, I could not stand it - will you go to the barricades? The answer certainly flawed, no, of course he won’t go, he will stay at home and protect his wealth. Here is such an opposition))))
      1. zart_arn
        zart_arn 12 May 2013 19: 08 New
        +2
        This man only expressed his opinion, by the way the correct one. Enough of the revolutions and barricades with us - for whom do they die? And what does Putin have to do with it, “one rather wealthy man” and the opposition? The article is about two fates, about meanness and honor.
    2. dddym
      dddym 12 May 2013 19: 10 New
      +3
      I'm not a swamp, not only am I against white ribbons, but forgive me the same is worthless. Who checked those who are in the swamp or who checked those who followed Gapon? Why are you putting them on the other side of the barricade without even asking? Need to ask from those who led the people for questionable handouts. having no political foundations, those who were bought, or simply went on about dubious leaders ... I generally doubt that most of those who were in the swamp would gladly run to serve the common enemy.
      1. Ruslan_F38
        Ruslan_F38 12 May 2013 19: 54 New
        0
        What difference does it make, let it be the opposition of the essence of the issue, this does not change.
      2. Homo
        Homo 12 May 2013 19: 57 New
        0
        Quote: dddym
        I'm not a swamp, not only am I against white ribbons, but forgive me the same is worthless. Who checked those who are in the swamp or who checked those who followed Gapon? Why are you putting them on the other side of the barricade without even asking? Need to ask from those who led the people for questionable handouts. having no political foundations, those who were bought, or simply went on about dubious leaders ... I generally doubt that most of those who were in the swamp would gladly run to serve the common enemy.

        You need to think a little wider! No one compares the “swamps” with the generals. The question is different - at present, participation in the actions of the “swamp opposition” is rocking the boat, trying to drown Russia. And people should think before going to the “swamp” rallies - and what it can lead to!
        1. Egen
          Egen 13 May 2013 10: 11 New
          +1
          Quote: Homo
          You need to think a little wider!

          IMHO really need to think more widely, how can these people be compared at all? Denikin, on the other hand, graduated from the General Staff Academy, originally a staff officer - he was directly taught to think by staff standards (in the good sense of the word), and not a dagger naked as Cossacks :), and indeed he is a natural global mind - partly not just a military man, but a politician. But Krasnov, well, Krasnov, - the Cossacks, not to mention bad things about them, always loved the freemen, even from the Horde :)
          By the way, in alternative fiction it is often deduced that with Denikin in power (if he won) Russia would have reached great heights ...
          ... But my personal attitude towards him, despite great respect for both the military and politics, spoils his departure from the high command and the transfer of everything to Wrangel. I understand everything, and fatigue, and hopelessness, and what else can you think of, but Wrangel is still not that figure, and the captain leaves the ship last, duty is duty ... But this is a purely personal opinion.
        2. dddym
          dddym 13 May 2013 16: 51 New
          0
          Sorry, but the rocking of the boat begins with reform, and I didn’t even think of it. And the swamps of everything are just the victims of those rockers. And the reforms are continuing and not for the better for the population.
    3. OTTO
      OTTO 12 May 2013 21: 26 New
      +1
      Quote: Ruslan_F38
      The author poses a question to the opposition, whose path is closer to them.

      The one where they pay more. But seriously, I'm afraid many of them do not know who they are talking about.
  13. knn54
    knn54 12 May 2013 17: 20 New
    15
    “... he spoke to the Germans about his and“ Union ”loyalty to them and about the joint struggle against the powers of Concord and Czechoslovakia. Allies - that "Don never fell away from them and that Germanophilism was forced to save himself and the Volunteer Army, which could not have received anything if not for Don’s self-sacrifice in the sense of external Germanophilism." Together with the Don Cossacks, he called the volunteers to the north to join Czechoslovakia. He told the Don Cossacks that they would not go beyond the borders of the army. Finally, he wrote to the Bolsheviks about the world. Such a policy was either too tricky or too unprincipled. ”
    A.I. Denikin about Krasnov.
    PS In the photo: General of the Army of Chile Mikhail (Miguel) Semenovich Krasnov-Marchenko, grand-nephew.
    General Pinochet entrusted Miguel to lead the national intelligence service. Miguel Krasnov did not disappoint his benefactor - he personally took part in the torture and executions of supporters of the ousted president Salvador Allende. According to eyewitnesses, Miguel Krasnov was the only officer who tortured and shot the detainees without covering his face with a mask.
    The apple never falls far from the tree.
    1. Lech from ZATULINKI
      Lech from ZATULINKI 12 May 2013 17: 50 New
      +3
      Yes, this is where Trotsky-Bronstein needed to put his hand.
    2. avt
      avt 12 May 2013 18: 38 New
      +4
      Quote: knn54
      Miguel Krasnov was the only officer who tortured and shot the detainees without covering his face with a mask.
      The apple never falls far from the tree.

      Not. Berry from the buttocks.
  14. bunta
    bunta 12 May 2013 17: 28 New
    +9
    . reburial in October 2005 in Moscow at the Donskoy cemetery of one of the leaders of the White Movement A.I. Denikin with his wife Ksenia Vasilyevna and the Russian philosopher I.A. Ilyin with his wife Natalya Nikolaevna, who were buried initially outside Russia (in the USA, France and Switzerland) . For the first time in the recent history of the Russian state, White activists were buried with honors from the Russian government.

    http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%85%D0%BE%D1
    %80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%
    BE%D0%B2_%D0%94%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%B8_%D0%98%D0%BB%D1
    %8C%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%B2_%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B8
    1. Homo
      Homo 12 May 2013 20: 02 New
      +1
      Quote: bunta
      . reburial in October 2005 in Moscow at the Donskoy cemetery of one of the leaders of the White Movement A.I. Denikin with his wife Ksenia Vasilyevna and the Russian philosopher I.A. Ilyin with his wife Natalya Nikolaevna, who were buried initially outside Russia (in the USA, France and Switzerland) . For the first time in the recent history of the Russian state, White activists were buried with honors from the Russian government.

      http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%85%D0%BE%D1

      %80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%

      BE%D0%B2_%D0%94%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%B8_%D0%98%D0%BB%D1

      %8C%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%B2_%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B8

      Do not confuse "horseradish with a finger." It was not the leader of the White movement who was reburied, but a participant in the Russo-Japanese War, one of the most productive generals of the Russian Imperial Army during the First World War.
  15. dejura2
    dejura2 12 May 2013 17: 28 New
    +7
    The answer to the question posed in the article is obvious. After all, there was an attempt to erect a monument to General Krasnov on the Don. Then it didn’t work out. They gave General Kornilov an ambiguous personality. But the fact that the CIA’s employees worked in Chubais’s department wasn’t from the same category? A visit to the US Embassy by representatives of the so-called opposition? And accounts in foreign banks, real estate there? I think our president, a professional in intelligence, knows the answer to this question too. Someday he will give it !?
  16. Reyngard
    Reyngard 12 May 2013 17: 29 New
    -36
    Here I look at you and I think fools we are all! But didn’t it cross your mind that the homeland is where you live well, and not where they yell about patriotism?
    1. tixon444
      tixon444 12 May 2013 19: 38 New
      +9
      Quote: Reyngard
      Here I look at you and I think fools we are all! But didn’t it cross your mind that the homeland is where you live well, and not where they yell about patriotism?

      And you, Mr. Cooper, apparently does not live badly in Russia, even if it is not your homeland? We do not yell about patriotism, but for now we are only talking, but not in a whisper. For the Russian except Russia there can be no other homeland, and whoever betrayed it, he himself condemned. Because he will no longer have life. And there will be God's punishment: either die in a foreign land, or dry by birch trees and larks with daisies.
    2. Vadivak
      Vadivak 12 May 2013 20: 43 New
      +5
      Quote: Reyngard
      Here I look at you and I think fools we are all! But didn’t it cross your mind that the homeland is where you live well, and not where they yell about patriotism?


      Yeah, just as it took root, someone built a good life, well, nice, meet me beloved for permanent residence, and building a fig yourself is not a royal thing.
      1. stroporez
        stroporez 13 May 2013 13: 46 New
        +1
        do not tear duetsuu ----- b ... dlo-s, sho take them .......
    3. Simon
      Simon 12 May 2013 21: 27 New
      +2
      Even Berezovsky, before his death, wanted to return to Russia, he wrote a confession to Putin in a letter, although he lived in England - he lives well there. It is interesting that he wanted to flee from a good life?
    4. Seraph
      Seraph 13 May 2013 03: 32 New
      0
      Dinner was digested, otherwise it would vomit
    5. brelok
      brelok 13 May 2013 05: 32 New
      0
      Quote: Reyngard
      Here I look at you and I think fools we are all! But didn’t it cross your mind that the homeland is where you live well, and not where they yell about patriotism?

      Are you Jewish?
    6. Egen
      Egen 13 May 2013 10: 18 New
      +1
      Quote: Reyngard
      But didn’t it occur to you - the homeland is where you live well, and not where they yell about patriotism?

      It came :) Especially when I was young and stupid, I studied abroad after the Iron Curtain, when we had at the beginning of 90's ... i.e. us ... well, everyone remembers how the authorities robbed us of passwords, soap on coupons, etc.
      BUT came and went, because with age, you still understand what the Motherland is - it's not even like in a song, it's all secondary, the Motherland is where the graves of the ancestors are ...
      Probably only with age you understand the longing of white emigrants for their homeland, maybe it really was worth it to take a look at their native places once, risking their lives ...
      If dear Reinhart is still young, then you still have everything ahead, you will understand ... or maybe I will understand by age, we'll see :)))
  17. capitosha1rang
    capitosha1rang 12 May 2013 17: 33 New
    +7
    It seems to me that people who call themselves the opposition in today's Russia will completely pass for the opposition of any government, in any country and at any time.
    To be a real opposition, you must have your own position, balanced, calculated and calculated on the real situation in the country's economy.
    Just demand enhancement? So the whole country can become in the position of "opposition". Who will do the business?
    1. Vadivak
      Vadivak 12 May 2013 20: 48 New
      +4
      Quote: capitosha1rang
      It seems to me that people who call themselves the opposition in today's Russia will completely pass for the opposition of any government, in any country and at any time


      Mummers, they are working out a room for edra, there must be an opposition with idiotic demands, it’s boring to look at what kind of opposition is Ksenia?
      1. politruk419
        politruk419 13 May 2013 01: 19 New
        +1
        There is no unity in edra itself. There are rogues every second. A lot of honest, responsible and patriotic people. You don’t need all to fit one comb.
  18. The comment was deleted.
  19. 573385
    573385 12 May 2013 17: 37 New
    -1
    And my question is: can a person occupy a presidency whose daughters are citizens of countries belonging to a hostile bloc?
    1. Homo
      Homo 12 May 2013 20: 08 New
      +3
      Quote: 573385
      And my question is: can a person occupy a presidency whose daughters are citizens of countries belonging to a hostile bloc?

      Did you personally check their passports? If not, do not trap like a "well" woman!
  20. Karabin
    Karabin 12 May 2013 17: 37 New
    +6
    I would like to ask all the oppositionists one question: what path of which of the generals is closer to you?

    What opposition do you mean? If the Germans-Kasparovskaya, then maybe there are a dozen or two who does not condemn Krasnov. You will find the same people, if you wish, of course, and in power. For the "red" opposition, both generals each deserve their own aspen stake. Etc. How many currents, so many opinions. And why, the question is, do you only address the opposition? The authorities do not want to ask him?
  21. crest 57
    crest 57 12 May 2013 17: 43 New
    12
    At the very beginning of the formation of Soviet power, Shkuro and Krasnov were caught by the KGB. And here's to you ... the "bloodthirsty" Bolsheviks let them go under the Honest Word, that from now on they would not fight against the working people. Incidentally, at that time it was a common practice to release representatives of the previously ruling classes on parole. How these two freaks (and many with them) kept their Word - it is known that they served Hitler faithfully.
  22. Betahon
    Betahon 12 May 2013 17: 44 New
    +5
    Unfortunately, historical regularity is again confirmed - any civil war is destructive and ruinous for the people! The scars and concussions from her remain for many years in the head and heart!
    The main task of modern governments of the country is to avoid fratricidal by ANY WAYS and save the RUSSIAN PEOPLE!
  23. Belogor
    Belogor 12 May 2013 17: 54 New
    +2
    Apparently, they both spoke more than once about their love for Russia. But life has shown who truly loved the homeland.
  24. Red777
    Red777 12 May 2013 18: 09 New
    +5
    Thanks for the article, extremely informative. But Krasnov is a bastard, he spoiled such a surname with his actions. His family:
    Ivan Kozmich Krasnov (1752 - 1812) - major general, participant in the Patriotic War of 1812.
    Ivan Ivanovich Krasnov (1802 - 1871) - lieutenant general, commander of the Life Guard of the Cossack Regiment, writer.
    Nikolai Ivanovich Krasnov (1833 - 1900) - Russian general, military historian and writer, participant in the Crimean War.
    Andrei Nikolayevich Krasnov (1862-1914 / 1915) - Russian botanist, soil scientist, geographer, paleobotanist; the founder of the Batumi Botanical Garden, the brother of this traitor.
    Their family fought for their country for 200 years, and this bastard went to the lackeys to the fascists.
    And the most annoying thing is that they also tried to rehabilitate him:
    Nationalist and monarchist organizations, both in the Russian Federation and abroad, have repeatedly appealed to the state bodies of the Russian Federation with requests for the rehabilitation of individual Russian collaborators.
    In accordance with the conclusions of the Main Military Prosecutor's Office on the refusal of their rehabilitation by the definitions of the Military Collegium of the Supreme Court of the Russian Federation of December 25, 1997, German citizens P.N. Krasnov, A.G. Shkuro, Sultan-Girey Klych, S.N. Krasnov and Domanov T.I. recognized reasonably convicted and not subject to rehabilitation, as notified by all initiators of appeals on the issue of rehabilitation of these individuals.
    We survived, at least they didn’t rehabilitate well, otherwise I can imagine a monument to him and Shkuro (that’s a speaking surname !!).
    By the way, his son went to dad:
    Miguel Krasnov-Marchenko (Spanish: Miguel Krassnoff Martchenko; born February 15, 1946, Tyrol) is a retired Brigadier General of the Chilean Army, the son of a member of the White Movement of the Chief of Staff of the Main Directorate of Cossack Troops of the Imperial Ministry of the Eastern Occupied Territories of the Third Reich, Major General Wehrmacht, Ataman S. N. Krasnov and second cousin of the White Movement chief of the Main Directorate of Cossack Forces of the Imperial Ministry of the Eastern Occupied Territories of the Third Reich of Ataman P. N. Krasnov.

    Convicted by a Chilean court on charges of involvement in crimes against humanity committed between 1973 and 1989, while serving in the Office of National Intelligence and participating in Operation Condor, in particular involvement in the abductions of Chilean and foreign nationals. The former Brigadier General is currently serving his term at the Cordillera Detention Center, Santiago.
  25. Alekseir162
    Alekseir162 12 May 2013 18: 13 New
    10
    Instantly give out - to whom shame
    To whom - dishonor, and to whom - immortality!
    1. Red777
      Red777 12 May 2013 18: 14 New
      +1
      And whose tombstone can be recognized?
      1. tlauicol
        tlauicol 12 May 2013 18: 51 New
        +9
        The memorial plate dedicated to von Pannwitz, A. G. Shkuro, P. N. Krasnov, Sultan-Kelech-Girey, T. N. Domanov and others. - “To the soldiers of the Russian military alliance, the Russian corps, the Cossack camp, the Cossacks of the 15th cavalry corps of the SS for the Fallen for Faith and Fatherland ”- All Saints Church, Moscow, Russia. May 8, 2007, on the eve of Victory Day, the monument was destroyed by anti-fascists.
        Monument to the traitors and the Soviet Union - survived, EP! at Bor
        1. Red777
          Red777 12 May 2013 19: 33 New
          +3
          Here is the news! And we still sin on the Baltic states with Ukrainians, damn it ... no words, but who broke it - well done! And the clergy, of course, are also Judas — the monuments to the Soviet soldiers, then the Eternal Flame. Obviously they want another 1917.
          1. Seraph
            Seraph 13 May 2013 03: 38 New
            0
            And you would only crap the Church: it doesn’t matter that this incident has nothing to do with the Church. When the brains are on one side, and in the heart of Judah is anger, the arguments and facts are on the side
            http://www.patriarchia.ru/db/text/239643.html
        2. mabuta
          mabuta 12 May 2013 22: 03 New
          +1
          Still, dishonesty was not enough or feared, but not on the stove MOP.
          individualin the post a little lower right
          There was a cruel, but fair Russian popular message: "Dog death of a dog."
        3. Denis
          Denis 13 May 2013 02: 32 New
          +2
          Quote: Tlauicol
          Monument to the traitors and the Soviet Union - survived, EP! at Bor
          He honored those himself is no better, Panimash
        4. Seraph
          Seraph 13 May 2013 03: 49 New
          0
          There is no need to make mistakes (about the fact that this slab is installed by the temple - this view is made up of text). And then the unbalanced comrades-in-arms of Svanidze, Nevzorov, Ksyusha and Pusek immediately begin to spray poisonous saliva on the Church
          Here about this plate: http://www.patriarchia.ru/db/text/239643.html
          The Yeltsinoids made such provocations with a specialist and they didn’t ask the local priests for permission, the land was urban, not church
  26. individual
    individual 12 May 2013 18: 14 New
    +4
    Both generals are certainly enemies of the Soviet Government.
    And I’m not sure if they were the victors in the Civil War of their indulgence towards the Bolsheviks.
    But their morality and morality, human qualities are easy to evaluate.
    General A.I. Denikin, a Russian patriot, died and was adequately buried with military honors, albeit in a foreign land.
    General P.I.Krasnov chose the path of Mazepa, an apostate who fought with his people, was hanged in Lefortovo prison.
    There was a cruel, but fair Russian popular message: "Dog death of a dog."
  27. Captain Vrungel
    Captain Vrungel 12 May 2013 18: 55 New
    +4
    At the end of World War II, criminals tried to squeeze everything under themselves, but received a stiff rebuff, was partially destroyed, driven underground and under tight control.
    With the collapse of the USSR, using the shock state of the people, the euphoria of "shit democracy", criminals and the party-Komsomol elite rigidly seized power and dragged the whole industry. He crushed everything for himself. A power vertical with a dictator and powerless subjects is being built. (See Ukraine. Roughly copying Russia.)
    We cannot judge generals. One was a patriot of Russia until the last minute of his life. The second is stupefied with hatred of the Bolsheviks with the desire to wipe them off the face of the earth.
    What do we have? There is no opposition, no patriots. There are crooks in power and estranged from power, crawling into politics in defense of their selfish interests.
    Why does the opposition of Ukraine become inert and a supplier of political women? Yes, because the three actual owners of Ukraine clearly appeared. Firtash, Akhmetov and the "family". The remaining oligarchs are annexes to these owners. The "freedom" is twitching. Yes, they give her a twitch, imitate the activity of the "opposition". The "face" command will arrive and slam, like a mad cockroach.
    The people still have "bread" and "circuses." There will be no explosion if the government would not brazenly pull it out of hand. Maidans have shown that they are invented by "foreign guys", made by "paid" and fans, rogues use it. Our people are patient. The main thing is not to interfere with his survival. Historically it happened. They do not allow our people to live either their own or others. Forever have to survive. Here we have no equal. A very strong feature of our people, therefore, we will not WIN.
    1. Egoza
      Egoza 12 May 2013 20: 04 New
      +6
      What is freedom for me?
      Joy and resounding laughter
      Wings behind
      Happiness is one for all!
      Believing in a beautiful tomorrow,
      Children don't know the troubles
      The sky is always blue
      A clean sip of water!
      Takeoff Aborted
      And it's harder to breathe ...
      We don’t need to help!
      Just do not bother!
      What is freedom for me?
      Well-fed old people
      Look away, try
      Past a begging hand.
      It's scary to even think
      How do we all live?
      What they sowed themselves
      We ourselves will reap!
      What is freedom for me?
      Forest, blue river -
      It’s all for the people,
      Servants own so far ...
      Our poor “SERVERS”
      Work night and day
      Only people- "OWNER"
      He became like a pale shadow.
      I do not want to be "MISSION"!
      I want to be a “SERVANT”!
      Place please change
      You - the deputy - with me!
      The storm is brewing
      And not in a glass of water ...
      If people endure so
      Not far from trouble.
      Living is so wonderful!
      One life is given to us
      You can still rise
      Not reaching the bottom.
      For a long time, humbly tolerate -
      Dead silence...
      Gotta pray louder
      So that war does not come!
      Dasha Winter
      http://www.vremia.ua/rubrics/politika/3655.php
  28. cooper
    cooper 12 May 2013 18: 57 New
    -7
    I am not going to blame anyone. For many, at the time, the Bolsheviks were an absolute evil, and it was not for me to judge them.
    1. individual
      individual 12 May 2013 20: 08 New
      +4
      Many who is this?

      Those who lost the Civil and then in the Patriotic acted on the side of Hitler?
      No no!
      Many are those who won both wars!
  29. jagdpanzer
    jagdpanzer 12 May 2013 19: 27 New
    -9
    learn history and do not succumb to provocations! it was a decent people!
    1. Simon
      Simon 12 May 2013 21: 53 New
      +5
      What did Krasnov become worthy of? The fact that he went against Russia, against the people, even the Soviet one, together with the fascist executioners? Here is Denikin, his officer honor remains. He no longer began to fight the Russian people; the Civil War was enough for him.
      1. Egen
        Egen 13 May 2013 10: 36 New
        0
        Quote: Simon
        Here is Denikin, his officer honor remains

        I agree, “for faith, the tsar and the Fatherland”: all right, everyone has his own faith (like the truth), there is no king, but the Fatherland has not disappeared, just as you call him, don’t call him! Therefore, probably even legally against the USSR on the side of a foreign army-a betrayal of the oath.
        1. stroporez
          stroporez 13 May 2013 16: 21 New
          0
          Quote: Egen
          "for faith, the king and the Fatherland"
          not one of them (the leaders of the white movement) raised this slogan to the shield ..........
    2. Denis
      Denis 13 May 2013 02: 29 New
      +2
      Quote: jagdpanzer
      it was PEOPLE
      Judah was also an apostle
  30. Enot-poloskun
    Enot-poloskun 12 May 2013 19: 51 New
    +4
    IMHO ...

    Or is it all a matter of origin and upbringing?

    Denikin’s father is a serf.

    Krasnov has a lieutenant general.
  31. nevopros
    nevopros 12 May 2013 19: 52 New
    +2
    http://www.kunakova.ru/krasnov.php

    This is his last word. Too late came awareness.
  32. maximus_1974
    maximus_1974 12 May 2013 19: 59 New
    +6
    You can hate Betray NOT !!!
  33. max73
    max73 12 May 2013 20: 03 New
    +3
    who is one of them, it was possible to draw a conclusion even on the events of the Civil ... A.I. Denikin advocated “one and indivisible,” Krasnov, becoming ataman, immediately declared Don’s independence and actively began to cooperate with the Germans ... when the White movement crashed in the 20th year - Denikin retired, perhaps clearly understanding the futility wars ... Krasnov, having lost power earlier, did not calm down and was sold over and over again .. by the way, I have the habit of knowing the point of view of the enemy. therefore, a couple of years ago I read the opus of Krasnov’s nephew ... impression: the little book that a certain politician sprinkled for the sake of cheap self-PR ...
  34. sergeybulkin
    sergeybulkin 12 May 2013 20: 07 New
    +7
    It’s not clear what these generals have to do with it. We live here (in Russia) and now. They began to plunder Russia not yesterday, and not even the day before yesterday. Here is the clearest example, not later than as an eyewitness told me today:
    Tver region; Eight years was built in the 80s, the latest for those times livestock complex for 1500 bull calves. Own slaughterhouse, refrigerators, a meat processing workshop, a cottage village for workers, cold and hot water, central heating, (an earthly paradise for this area) in general, modern new technology. As soon as Yeltsin came to power, at the same time, everything stopped. Part of the livestock was sold for meat, part was simply poisoned and buried in the ground. And the whole complex was completely dismantled and handed over for scrap, even cars and tractors, almost new ones were cut into pieces and also scrap. About ten wagons were taken out of ferrous metal only, they say they are still digging, digging pipes, etc.
    There are dozens of such examples, and tens of thousands will be typed throughout Russia. Purposefully, the agricultural enterprise, timber industry enterprises, absolutely everything, and so that no one was left, were specially destroyed. That was the kind of love our Motherland had for our “new Russians”, but I’m sure that even now the modern “oligarchs” and other who think of themselves as “elites” do not feel any feelings for the country where they were born.
    1. max73
      max73 12 May 2013 20: 16 New
      +3
      Sergey, you write about it (officially !!!) to the Investigative Committee. so that your letter is recorded and the answer is given ... now - this topic has a place to be relevant ... there is a lot of similar crap in the country .. and what people say about events almost a hundred years ago - believe me, this is also important.
      1. sergeybulkin
        sergeybulkin 12 May 2013 20: 27 New
        0
        I am a stranger here, I arrived - I left, and the train has already left.
        1. Egen
          Egen 13 May 2013 10: 51 New
          0
          Quote: sergeybulkin
          I am a stranger here, I arrived - I left, and the train has already left.

          Quote: max73
          you write about it (officially !!!) to the investigative committee

          Sergey, do you think that by naivety nobody knows anything? What are you, administrations from rural to ... regularly, without lunch breaks :), as a result, report to the very top about the state of fixed assets and what not. As far back as 70, my grandmother was a deputy of the district council and told how they were strictly asked (for what?) For each sick cow. Well, now administrations collect statistics and transmit about everything that is possible wherever possible.
          In the middle of the 90’s, I personally participated (as a performer, not a leader!) In the design of such a regional program with Italians to supply equipment to ours, incl. agricultural enterprises of the region. Of course, everything was covered with a copper basin, but the corresponding enterprises where these programs "hang" are still accountable to the regional administration (at least about the "hanging"), and that is up ...
  35. omsbon
    omsbon 12 May 2013 20: 19 New
    +4
    Two roads, two fates.
    Having chosen the path of betrayal of the Motherland, Krasnov in the memory of people remained a Judas and a German lackey.
    The road chosen by A.I. Denikin, left him in the people's memory, as a general who did not recognize the Bolsheviks, but loved his homeland. The general found eternal peace at the walls of the Donskoy Monastery. Eternal memory to him!
    1. Simon
      Simon 12 May 2013 21: 55 New
      +2
      I fully support you. good
  36. rexby63
    rexby63 12 May 2013 20: 27 New
    0
    The article is somewhat emotional
  37. Ragnarek
    Ragnarek 12 May 2013 21: 02 New
    -3
    Denikin, incidentally, was very authoritative in white-emigrant circles and could encourage experienced officers to return through Iran to their homeland to fight. But he preferred, roughly speaking, non-intervention. So both are good krasnov finished Judas, and Denikin offended
    1. Denis
      Denis 13 May 2013 02: 27 New
      0
      Quote: Ragnarek
      But he preferred, roughly speaking, non-intervention. So both are good krasnov finished Judas, and Denikin offended
      This is from what comic book story?
      Denikin offered, but such help did not fit the party leadership
  38. Vlaleks48
    Vlaleks48 12 May 2013 21: 11 New
    +2
    These generals differently accepted the fate of their homeland at the beginning of World War II!
    One is Anton Ivanovich Denikin, by all means tried to help the Motherland!
    The second, following the traditions of the arrogant Saxons - the enemy of my enemy - my friend, became openly on the side of the enemy!
    The first - Bright memory!
    The second is eternal contempt!
  39. CARAMZIN
    CARAMZIN 12 May 2013 21: 24 New
    +1
    Two generals who rested on the laurels of the generals and did not see that Russia was also a workers' and peasants and not only noble and tsarist were obviously stupid and fools. But the Bolsheviks promised these workers and peasants all that they wanted and were on horseback! that the mass of peasants and workers cannot be defeated by noblemen and other bourgeoisie ... there is not enough mass. Generals with the bulk of the people would have considered nothing terrible would happen to Russia. But in Russia, if anyone comes to power, then it’s completely forgets about the people, except for himself, of course. The navel of the earth becomes so to speak. How much blood has been spilled because of this ... Well, gentlemen of the bourgeois cannot be so ... After all, everything in the country is built by the people and is built by the people. You need to love your people and respect them. Then he you will be exalted and will follow you even into the abyss. But Krasnov and Denikin betrayed their people. They swore allegiance to the tsar, but the tsar is the Russian .. Russian people and not anyone. So they swore allegiance to the Russian people. Instead of protecting the people, they began to protect only certain sections of the population, that is, the bourgeois. And then they needed to unite ... instead, they each fought on their own. Everyone wanted to grab a part of the country for themselves ... in general, and only ...
  40. topwar.ruk-d
    topwar.ruk-d 12 May 2013 21: 33 New
    -7
    Krasnov and Denikin should not owe anything to the Soviet authorities. They did not swear allegiance to the Union, and the USSR was not the successor of the Empire. Therefore, judging Krasnov as a traitor was not acceptable. Another thing is to morally condemn.
    1. Pavlovich
      Pavlovich 12 May 2013 21: 48 New
      +4
      That is exactly what the leadership of our state argues calling the foreigners all Russians who were after the collapse of the USSR on the territory of the former Soviet republics. The oath is not given to the Tsar or the President, they are given to the people ... Traitor Krasnov, traitor ...
  41. uralkazak
    uralkazak 12 May 2013 22: 00 New
    -9
    Krasnov, of course, made a terrible choice, paying dearly for his mistake, but are you not too superficially and categorically judging the gentlemen-comrades? Krasnov is a Cossack, and not Russian, like Denikin, and you need to know the history of the relationship between Cossacks and the government (even the tsarist, even the Bolsheviks - there is not much difference - both of them shed a lot of Cossack blood), as well as what the Russians did on the Don, In the Urals, Orenburg, and further to the places of Cossack troops in the civil war. There, after all, not only the foreigners tried, but the majority of those who robbed civilians, killed old people and raped women were Russians - like local, nonresident, who had once fled under the protection of the Cossacks to rich black soil first in laborers, and then wished to become masters in a foreign land, so were the inhabitants of the central regions of Russia. It is not surprising that so many Cossacks first emigrated, and then began to fight for the Germans. Try to at least mentally survive what the Cossacks survived, then maybe you will judge less often about what you don’t know. And for the Red Army
    more Cossacks fought in the Cossack units in the Great Patriotic War, I am not in condemnation, but as a statement of fact. So even now among the mummers there are also mostly not Cossacks, but "members of Cossack societies." In the First World War, Krasnov personally led the units to the glory of Russian weapons — and you, his accusers, what did you do for your Russia? At first there was the genocide of the Cossacks, and then Krasnov’s choice — now that Russia, to which it swore, became a monster devouring its people, he freed himself from the oath and devoted himself, like many Cossacks, to the salvation of his Cossack people. His tragedy is that he did not understand the changes that took place in the USSR, but to call him "complete Judas"? He did not swear allegiance to the USSR, and he fulfilled the oath of the Russian Empire to the end.
    1. mabuta
      mabuta 12 May 2013 22: 36 New
      +1
      I myself am from Uralsk, but he has a lot of merits in the 1World, but together with the Nazis in the 2MB ?! - maybe you can see for yourself that they went through the school or go over the Internet, you will find photographs where its owners burn people in barns and what they did with children in concentration camps. Didn't he know that? And what the Cossacks did in the Urals and the Orenburg province in the civilian. You say the oath to Russia, and then -
      now that the sworn Russia has become a monster devouring its people,he freed himself from the oath and devoted himself, like many Cossacks, to the salvation of his Cossack people.
      - Is this not a betrayal? Yes, there is no Tsar, there is no Faith (unfortunately), but the Motherland remains.
    2. Egoza
      Egoza 12 May 2013 22: 51 New
      +2
      Quote: uralkazak
      Krasnov is a Cossack, and not Russian, like Denikin, and you need to know the history of the relationship between Cossacks and the government (even the tsarist, even the Bolsheviks - there is not much difference - both of them shed a lot of Cossack blood), as well as what the Russians did on the Don, Ural, Orenburg and further on the places of the Cossack troops in the civil war.

      Well, let’s not talk about privileges for Cossacks and granted favors now, by the way also about how much blood they shed to the workers, being faithful and most reliable tsarist troops, the topic is vast. you just always need to remember that all acts are returned by a boomerang, and not necessarily to you personally, it is possible that your descendants will rake in full.
      But returning to Krasnov. somehow it is overlooked the fact that he was both a general of the Russian Imperial Army and the chieftain of the Great Don Army

      Since 1896 he was married to Lydia Fedorovna Krasnova (German, maiden name Gruneisen).
      Is it not here that the roots of his commitment to the Germans lie?
    3. avt
      avt 13 May 2013 21: 48 New
      0
      Quote: kazssr
      I have a question; why did nicholas the 2nd make saint?

      For the accession of a foreign Orthodox Church, this was one of the main conditions. Well, they buried exclusively for grandmothers. Huge amounts of money belonged to the Romanovs abroad, but only the head of the Romanovs’s house could dissolve them, no matter how many the Kirilovichs were, but the bankers-holders of the Romanov’s caps were phalos. A DIRECT heir, or his corpse, was needed. This was the operation, the funeral of the imperial family "and, if you remember, right after the funeral, the flown-up crow quickly picked up the head of the Romanovs' house. Everything calmed down. Remember - even Likhachev dragged the fight like a goat on a rope, but the ROC didn’t take part. Well, Masha and Zhora Gogenzollerovich flew past the ticket office , I hoped for Borya Chubais, and another Borya-Nemtsov podsuetsilsya. Precision for a small share.
  42. Standard Oil
    Standard Oil 12 May 2013 22: 24 New
    +3
    White lost, the red won, one did not give up and was rightly hanged, the other seemed to calm down and died my death, I saw a photo of the brave Cossacks in the form of ss, Cossacks they are at war with the unarmed population much, and how they meet the soldiers in arms and legs to run.
    1. Gari
      Gari 12 May 2013 23: 22 New
      +1
      Quote: Standard Oil
      White lost, the red won, one did not give up and was rightly hanged, the other seemed to calm down and died my death, I saw a photo of the brave Cossacks in the form of ss, Cossacks they are at war with the unarmed population much, and how they meet the soldiers in arms and legs to run.

      Cossacks have always been and will be on guard of the interests of the Russian State and were the USSR,
      In accordance with the order of the People's Commissar of Defense K.E. Voroshilov No. 67 of April 23, 1936, some cavalry divisions received Cossack status.

      The special act restored the wearing of the previously forbidden Cossack uniform. In 1936, the ceremonial uniform for the Cossack units was approved. In this form, the Cossacks marched at the Victory Parade on June 24, 1945.
      Of the Cossacks, 262 cavalry received the title of Hero of the Soviet Union, 7 cavalry corps and 17 cavalry divisions received the guard ranks
  43. uralkazak
    uralkazak 12 May 2013 23: 08 New
    -7
    The Cossacks' Homeland belongs to the Cossack Prisud, you don’t take offense at Lukashenko that he is not part of Russia with Belarus, as a separate region (And the Russian Federation offered him), so the Cossacks were not going to enter the Russian Empire, and before Peter I relations with Cossacks were built through the Ambassadorial order as with a foreign state. Cossacks initially built relations with Russia as partnership, fraternal based on the Orthodox faith. We are a people, with our history and our territory that we have taken away - and these are the topics of separate conversations for those who still want to know their history not by a set of common cliches, but by the way it is - not always smooth, combed and beautiful . The Reds won - and where are they now? And, about the unarmed population, to fight, and to flee the soldiers - a man writes who did not fight, otherwise he would have known modern Cossack military history - the war in Yugoslavia, Abkhazia, Transnistria - where was the army then?
    Fulfilled the order of the Supreme Commander: "Sit and not rock the boat!" But the Cossacks did their duty - they stood for the Orthodox brothers, there was no one else to stand for them at that time. Yes, and in Chechnya the battalion of Ermolov did not rob the sakli of the poor highlanders.
    1. xan
      xan 12 May 2013 23: 47 New
      +3
      Quote: uralkazak
      We are a people, with our history and our territory that we have taken away - and these are the topics of separate conversations for those who still want to know their history not by a set of common cliches, but by the way it is - not always smooth, combed and beautiful

      There is a lot of ambition, but little knowledge and ability to analyze. As soon as the turmoil in Russia ended, the fate of the Cossacks was immediately determined. Cossacks entered the structure of the Russian state without any snot. Under Peter there was an attempt by Bulavin to play independence, more like a riot without miscalculating the consequences, just ended badly. There was no prospect of building a state for obvious reasons. The territory of the Cossack army is the one on which the emperor allowed them to live, and the emperor gave them rights for service. Cossacks spoke Russian, were Orthodox and did not agree with their many non-Russian neighbors. The entire Cossack elite was well aware of the strength of the Russian bureaucracy and the realities that existed at that time. Where did these cries come from - are the Cossacks a separate people? Siberians or, say, Muscovites are also a separate people? Maybe peasants or merchants are also separate people? And all Cossack glory began in the 18th century, when the Cossacks were clearly inscribed in the structure of the Russian state.
      Quote: uralkazak
      and before Peter I, relations with the Cossacks were built through the Ambassadorial order as with a foreign state.

      some wretched evidence of the existence of the Cossack state.
      Quote: uralkazak
      Cossacks initially built relations with Russia as partnership, fraternal based on the Orthodox faith.

      Yeah, at that dashing time, borders changed so often that there was no point in drawing up political maps. And here are the dashing local Dartanyans who decided to build equal partnership relations with the whole state, and that - the Cossacks and Russia are roughly equivalent formations. Himself not funny?
    2. Denis
      Denis 13 May 2013 02: 23 New
      +3
      Quote: uralkazak
      We are a people, with our history and our territory
      Bullshit, like the chieftain of the St. Petersburg station (is it like ???), the clown is mumbled, the demobilization of the “sewing troops” is not good for him
      However, it is a considerable territory. It is clear if it’s on the Don, but what about the Trans-Baikal and, well, the land, the Chukchi Cossacks?
  44. uralkazak
    uralkazak 12 May 2013 23: 16 New
    -1
    Egoze
    Privileges for the Cossacks? - Can you imagine what it means to be equipped at your own expense? How much is it? And if the family serves 5-7 people?
    And they are constantly in the service, not at home, but what will the family have and what to equip? The soldiers in the Russian army, unlike the Cossacks, were fully equipped at the expense of the state, and he served from the family at best alone, but only how many Russian families where there were no soldiers in the family at all.
    1. xan
      xan 12 May 2013 23: 52 New
      +3
      The soldier served 25 years, being a soldier at that time meant not having a family. In these soldiers, and not in the Cossacks, all the power of Russia.
      Cossacks of the family did not have and did not serve constantly.
      Will we calculate how much it costs?
      1. topwar.ruk-d
        topwar.ruk-d 13 May 2013 05: 06 New
        +1
        soldiers, contrary to popular belief, could start families during the service.
    2. Egoza
      Egoza 13 May 2013 05: 28 New
      +2
      Quote: uralkazak
      Egoze
      Privileges for the Cossacks?

      By the beginning of the XNUMXth century, Cossacks formed a separate estate, guarded state and internal ethnic borders, constantly sent people to many wars, and even served as a personal convoy of the king. In response, they had significant social autonomy, broad fertile lands, were exempted from taxes, etc.
      The Cossack during his entire service has his own: clothes, weapons and horses. From the treasury in active duty he receives a salary, fodder for a combat horse and a cottage of 75 rubles per pack horse, wherever the shelves are. Active service shall be considered from the day of the performance of regiments or teams abroad of the Don search land; from this time begins the production of him and salary. In the old days, every Cossack always went camping with two horses, for the convenience of speedy transitions, in which horses were replaced by one another, and on both of them each received forage. Afterwards, when a double set of horses in Cossack regiments was deemed unnecessary, the forage for the second was kept by the Cossacks under the name of a pack, or repair horse.
      http://forum.elan-kazak.ru/t352-topic
      1. Egen
        Egen 13 May 2013 11: 07 New
        +1
        Quote: Pavlovich
        Krasnov is a Cossack, not Russian, like Denikin

        Well, guys, I'm sorry to meet you, something you have slipped into nationalism ... Well, I also read the History of the Cossacks, about the origin from the Horde, but there were still more Russians than _mongols_ there :)
        Quote: Egoza
        By the beginning of the XIX century, Cossacks formed in a separate estate

        IMHO, the "estate" will be right to say, but why should the Cossacks be separated from the Russians and from Russia? Yes, the Cossacks are not angels who argue, but their contribution to the history of Russia, = the history of the Russian people, no matter how unequivocal, but by weight!
  45. individual
    individual 12 May 2013 23: 18 New
    +2
    It's hard to figure out the past.
    Obviously, General Denikin has the honor.
    And General Krasnov lost the dignity and honor of the Russian officer.
    We would have to figure out the present.
    Joke in the topic:
    The investigator of the prosecutor's office reports to the president:
    - Vasilyeva pointed to Serdyukov, Serdyukov to Chubais, Chubais to Surkov, Surkov to Medvedev, Medvedev to ...
    “Enough,” interrupts Vladimir Vladimirovich. - And so it is already obvious that no one is to blame for anything ...
    1. xan
      xan 13 May 2013 00: 02 New
      -3
      Quote: individ
      And General Krasnov lost the dignity and honor of the Russian officer.

      I would not rush to such words. Krasnov was not a coward, he took to the heart the realities of the civil war, and then there was also something like genocide unleashed by the Reds against the Cossacks. I could not rise above personal emotions. In order to forgive the Red Terror against the innocent representatives of the propertied class, the Jewish-Chekist hostages shots, it was necessary to have something more than honor.
  46. individual
    individual 12 May 2013 23: 29 New
    -1
    Look higher.
  47. sad1940
    sad1940 12 May 2013 23: 49 New
    +1
    Our current “freedom fighters” are closer to the path that leads to the trough with a freebie and a bag of dough, where you can get 700000 for a tongue-tied statement of wretched thoughts, if only we would not forget to yell at every corner about the illegitimacy of power.
  48. Pushkar
    Pushkar 13 May 2013 00: 09 New
    +3
    Another small fact to the image of General Denikin. No officers were awarded in the Volunteer Army, as the Civil War was fratricidal. So ordered Anton Ivanovich.
  49. uralkazak
    uralkazak 13 May 2013 00: 09 New
    -4
    Consider, dear. Family of a soldier (he had dad, mom, brothers, sisters, etc.)
    spent on his service 0 rub. 00 kopecks. Now take the price of a horse for one Cossack + the amount of equipment for the horse (saddle, bridle, etc.), and for the Cossack according to the norms. And now multiply the resulting amount by 5-6. This will be the expenses of one family. And if the Russian family got rid of excess mouth, then the Cossack lost breadwinners (and nothing that in the war they kill and not everyone returns home). And being measured on who is holding on is silly, everyone has his own glory -
    and here, too, is not so simple.
    1. xan
      xan 13 May 2013 12: 00 New
      +2
      Quote: uralkazak
      And if the Russian family got rid of excess mouth, the Cossack lost breadwinners

      it’s clear, if Russian, then an extra mouth
      and if a Cossack, then the breadwinner
      don't you take a lot on yourself, eccentric?
  50. Pushkar
    Pushkar 13 May 2013 00: 13 New
    +2
    Are you serious: "Cossack" is a separate nationality? Not Russian? Krasnovshchina in its purest form.