Trump's Battleships: Back to the Future

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Trump's Battleships: Back to the Future

From the round-the-world voyage of the "white" fleet" to the silhouette of the Missouri in Tokyo Bay—the appearance of battleships meant one thing. They came not to discuss rules, but to make them.

In the 21st century, battleships remained in museums, but the logic of brute force itself has not disappeared. It's no surprise that the Trump administration has embraced this striking image.



From a technical perspective, things are much less clear.

There's nothing stopping us from building a dreadnought or recreating an ancient trireme. The only question is why. You can copy the hull and improve the armament, but you can't resurrect an entire technological era.

Battleships weren't built for beauty.


Their appearance and size were subject to the physics and technical limitations of their time.

At sea, large caliber ruled, and in order to fire a projectile weighing a ton, gigantic guns were required.

With nine guns in three turrets, along with aiming mechanisms and ammunition supply systems, the total weight of the battleship's main caliber could exceed 5000 tons.


This was the role and strategic importance of this class of ships. No ship of smaller size could use artillery of this caliber.

In the 21st century, the importance of size has greatly diminished. Small corvette and heavy missile The cruiser uses the same range of missile weapons.

Today, there are no objective reasons for building non-aircraft carrier ships with a displacement of over 12-15 thousand tons.

The figures cited apply to the Zumwalt and the Chinese Type 055 guided missile cruiser. Their record-breaking sizes aren't a consequence of military necessity. They merely underscore their status and bottomless budgets—someone's just going wild.


Most modern designs are much more compact. The standard displacement of deep-sea ships typically does not exceed 7,000 tons. Experience has shown that such dimensions make it possible to accomplish all current combat missions.

A prime example is the Arleigh Burke-class destroyers.

The project is well known, so we'll limit ourselves to a general conclusion. All the specified combat characteristics were achieved without the "slight" brittleness of aluminum—the destroyer's hull and superstructure are made of steel.


In advanced projects, design optimization is underway, combat lasers are being tested, and antenna posts are being raised to greater heights. But the overall scale remains the same—around 10 tons of standard displacement.

For example, the DDG(X)-class "future destroyer" is stated to have a displacement of 13,000 tons, which most likely corresponds to its full load. The standard displacement is significantly less.

The displacement declared for the Trump-class battleships is 35 tons.

How to effectively use such a displacement reserve is a challenging task.

An example is the heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser (TARKR) of Project 1144 "Orlan", the standard displacement of which is about 24 thousand tons.

These dimensions make the ship a true “sea Baikonur.”


The most advanced modification (Admiral Nakhimov), according to the most conservative estimates, is capable of carrying up to 300 units of guided missiles. weapons.

The cruiser carries almost the entire range of naval weapons, from naval artillery of popular calibers to rocket launchers and torpedoes. The design includes three helicopters and four 12-meter command boats.


1600 rooms and 700 crew members.

List of radar systems, fire control equipment, communications and EW, navigation, and hydroacoustics occupy several pages. Among them are masterpieces like the MG-355 "Polynom," a hydroacoustic station with an antenna under the keel, 30 meters long, and weighing approximately 800 tons.

Is the hull still underutilized? Two power plants—nuclear and conventional—will help solve the problem.

In this tough battle, the designers prevailed, but the debate about whether the cruiser could effectively use such a huge number of weapons has not subsided for many decades.

And all this is achieved with a displacement that is a quarter less than that of Trump's battleship.

We will leave it to the readers to draw their own conclusions.

The Main Problem with Trump's "Battleships"


The warm-up is over, and the tedious numbers lie ahead. Fantasies of superships run afoul of an inconspicuous underwater rock—the military-industrial complex's capacity to produce high-precision missiles.

The US Navy has 84 surface ships with universal launchers (ULLs). The vast majority are Arleigh Burke-class destroyers with 90-96 ULLs. The aging Ticonderoga-class cruisers are equipped with 122 launchers, while the ill-fated Zumwalt-class cruisers have 80 ULLs. The scale is clear: approximately 8,000 ULLs, not counting other missile carriers, such as 50 attack submarines.


There's no point in getting ahead of ourselves when calculating the missile salvo density. According to official data, the US Navy acquired... 55 Tomahawks in 2023. And this situation has been observed throughout recent years.

The obvious conclusion is that if half of the cruisers and destroyers are deployed to combat operations, they will have to go to sea with reduced ammunition, while the rest of the fleet will remain at their berths without weapons.

The MK.41 type UVP does not fire "cherry pits": the launch tubes extend 8 meters into the hull and are designed for ammunition of the corresponding size and cost.

The most widespread, simplest, and relatively inexpensive option is the Tomahawk cruise missile. Over the past quarter century, approximately 4000 units of all modifications have been produced, a significant portion of which have already been expended in combat. For example, during the failed operation in 2018 against Syria, 103 missiles were launched simultaneously, while the largest expenditure of "axes"—approximately 800—was recorded during the invasion of Iraq.

Anti-aircraft missiles are significantly more expensive, and their numbers are more limited. For example, one contract (2021) called for the production of 269 Standard-2 missiles at a total cost of $578 million to meet the needs of the navies of seven (!) nations. The US Navy will receive 54 of these missiles—the numbers clearly illustrate the scale of the need. Moreover, this is a relatively simple SAM, the first versions of which were adopted in the 1980s.

The ESSM short-/medium-range surface-to-air missiles were produced in the thousands and deployed to the navies of twenty countries. The problem is that the MK.41 design allows for four ESSM missiles to be deployed in each of the USS Burke's 90 vertical launch tubes, but in practice, it seems even one is rarely deployed.

The Standard-6, the most advanced and long-range SAM, is estimated to cost four times more than the Tomahawk. Only 500 of these missiles were produced over ten years, not enough to equip even ten destroyers.

Especially comical against this backdrop are old logs, which indicate that the Burke's multirole variant's ammunition complement consists of 74 long-range SAMs, 8 Tomahawks, and 8 anti-submarine missiles. And the attack variant's complement consists of 56 Tomahawks and 34 SAMs.

The most expensive part of the munitions package is the Standard-3 SAM, an exoatmospheric interceptor with an equally exorbitant price tag ($10-20 million). These are produced in limited quantities.

Of all this stories A couple of surprising conclusions follow.

The cost of a missile ship's ammunition can be comparable to the cost of the ship itself. While everyone is discussing the construction of cruisers and destroyers, few are considering: Will there be enough funds to purchase ammunition for each carrier built? And how many years will it take to wait after the first salvo before the ship regains combat capability?

This problem is typical for any modern fleet.

This also explains the lack of interest in the "arsenal ship" concept and plans to deploy missiles in shipping containers on conventional vessels and container ships. When there aren't enough missiles even to equip actual warships, deploying them anywhere becomes absurd.

As for Trump's battleships, the question is simple. What's the point of supercarriers with a large number of vertical-warhead launchers if existing ships can't carry their standard ammunition?

To the roar of guns


The image of a battleship is invariably associated with big guns.

The Trump project doesn't include any 16-inch guns—such systems are completely unnecessary today. Trump's own rhetoric boils down to a "very large and magnificent ship."


And yet, a battleship without guns isn't quite a battleship. The project's designers promised a "railgun" and a pair of general-purpose 127mm guns, similar to those mounted on modern destroyers.

There's not much to add here. No one can clearly explain the advantage or necessity of a "railgun." By all indications, such a superweapon, firing guided projectiles hundreds of kilometers away, would be prohibitively expensive—comparable to a cruise missile.

Reservation


For dessert, the most interesting part.

Predictably, not a word was said about armor protection in the context of Trump's battleship. These days, no ship has sophisticated structural protection. Only in isolated cases is localized armor protection used.

The popular myth about the "armor" of the Orlan-class heavy nuclear cruisers is debunked in the most obvious way. The Orlan-class's freeboard is twice as high as that of the battleship Yamato, while its displacement is three times smaller.


If any significant portion of the displacement were accounted for by armor plates, the Orlan's hull would have a squat silhouette, like that of ships of the artillery era.

Instead, we see lightweight hull structures soaring to enormous heights.

Another question is whether the missiles “canceled” the structural protection too confidently?

100 years ago the situation looked much more serious.

Large-caliber shells had incredible penetrating power. The impact of a "blank" made of the strongest material struck a target at twice the speed of sound. A blank could weigh over a ton, and only 2% of that mass was "soft" explosive. The remaining 98% is made of high-strength alloy steel.

Only thick armor (300-400 mm), installed only in the most critical areas, could withstand such a blow. A narrow armor belt protected the magazines and engine rooms, as did the walls of the conning tower and the main battery turret. The rest of the ship was left to chance.

Modern anti-ship missiles (Harpoon, Neptune) will shatter into pieces upon contact with a 50-mm plate.

With such modest values, it becomes possible to cover a large portion of the side. And this doesn't require a Trump-class battleship—such protection can even be integrated into a frigate's design.

A good example is the Dupuy de Lom, with a side protected by 100 mm of armor from the waterline to the upper deck, with normal displacement. 6400 tons.


Replace its bulky guns with missiles, reduce the crew from 500 to 100, and go!

The purpose of the protection is not to make it impossible to penetrate, but to minimize damage inside the compartments.

The very presence of armor puts the attacking side in a difficult position, driving it into a logical vicious circle.

Tandem charges or thicker warhead walls will result in a lower explosive content. The impact effect will be reduced—the defense has served its purpose!

Trying to combine armor penetration with high-explosive effect will require increasing the weight and size of the missile itself. This will make the anti-ship missile more vulnerable and reduce the number of possible launch vehicles. This will also simplify the work of the ship's defense system. Defense.

Structural protection is not absolute - it is only one of the defense contours.

Of course, now they will remember about BEKs and drones.

The BEK is simply an analogue of the Harpoon anti-ship missile, with the difference that the boat is twenty times slower than the missile. If ships can't fend off even such threats, that speaks volumes. Active defense systems could do with additional insurance.

Yes, thin armor (50-100 mm) provides sufficient protection from external explosions. Prince Borghese's saboteurs demonstrated this in practice when planning an attack on the cruiser York. Apparently, the Italians knew that detonating a conventional high-explosive charge near the side of the cruiser would not cause significant damage. An extremely powerful charge was required, which also had to be detachable from the boat. To detonate it deep under the armor belt (the thickness of which did not exceed 76 mm).


The illustration shows a kamikaze imprint on the armor of the cruiser Sussex. The belt thickness at this point was 4,5 inches (114 mm). The lower speed of a diving aircraft (compared to a missile) was more than compensated for by the 500 kg (1,112 lb) engine in the front, which was heavier and more durable than the warhead of any modern anti-ship missile. The attack resulted only in scratched paint.

In combat, constructive defense is an additional chance to survive and complete your objectives. The presence of such defense disrupts all enemy calculations, complicates the attack, and reduces the likelihood of success—like a surprise card that ruins a winning combination.

The metal itself makes virtually no difference to the budget. For example, the cost of manufacturing the Burke's hull accounts for only 10% of the destroyer's final construction estimate.

As for the main characters of this story, in the form presented, the battleships of the Trump project look absurd and have no connection with their predecessors from the early 20th century.

Gigantic proportions made sense when they were commensurate with tasks and capabilities. Today, they've become mere symbols. But true meaning lies in learning from the lessons of the past.
167 comments
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  1. +1
    27 February 2026 03: 08
    Yes, as Pericles said a little earlier: “War knows no norms.”
    1. +4
      27 February 2026 19: 56
      Overall, I agree with the premise that Trump's battleships are just another daring PR stunt by the American president. But regarding the argument about a frigate with 100mm of armor... I could be wrong, of course, considering the passage of time, but wasn't this same author, ten years ago (my gods, how long ago that was), discussing why the protection of modern ships differs so dramatically from that of their early 20th-century ancestors, despite seemingly equal displacements? Back then, if my memory serves me correctly, the author concluded that all available space and weight on modern ships is entirely reserved for electronic equipment, from antenna posts and rooms for the combat information and control system, as well as other information and analysis systems, to additional power sources (batteries, generators, etc.). Moreover, it was pointed out that despite the trend toward miniaturization of electronics, which in theory should eventually compensate for these losses and free up additional capacity, in reality this is not happening due to the continued need to place antenna posts as high above sea level as possible, as this directly impacts their range. This, in turn, requires more massive superstructures and tall masts, which account for a significant portion of the structural weight of a modern warship. Am I mistaken? If I am, then under these conditions, adding an additional 100 mm of armor to a frigate would result in it approaching a destroyer in displacement, but its combat capabilities would still remain those of a frigate. Whether this is worth the effort is a question for military economics experts. And the passage about the American fleet's underarmament was also amusing. I understand, of course, that we are forced to rely on official documents in any case, but where is the guarantee that the majority of purchases, as with our military budget, will not be classified as "TOP SECRET"?
  2. +2
    27 February 2026 03: 11
    No ship of smaller size could use artillery of such caliber.

    Monitors.
    The popular myth about the "armor" of the Orlan-class heavy nuclear cruisers is debunked in the most obvious way. The Orlan-class's freeboard is twice the height of the battleship Yamato.

    So the author thinks that 400 mm is armor, and 50-100 mm is not armor?
    A good example is the Dupuy de Lom, with a side protected by 100 mm of armor from the waterline to the upper deck, with a normal displacement of 6400 tons.

    Yes, it seems to be, but not for Orlan... Riddles in the darkness...

    The Trump project does not include any 16-inch guns; such systems are completely unnecessary today.
    If nuclear warheads can be placed in a 152mm projectile, they're really not needed. But 152-203mm projectiles with a range of up to 100 km are an excellent addition to missiles.
    1. +7
      27 February 2026 04: 28
      Monitors

      A kettle is also, to some extent, a steam boiler.
      So the author thinks that 400 mm is armor, and 50-100 mm is not armor?

      The author never wrote anything like this.
      But 152-203 mm up to 100 km is an excellent addition to the missiles.

      I agree with you

      The nuclear warhead has nothing to do with it. 152-203 mm can be a good choice for coastal operations. Fast reaction, relatively low cost of shells, immunity to air defense.

      Testing of the 203mm automatic gun on a destroyer
      1. 0
        27 February 2026 05: 04
        Quote: Santa Fe
        A kettle is also, to some extent, a steam boiler.

        Only the monitor is a combat ship.


        Quote: Santa Fe
        So the author thinks that 400 mm is armor, and 50-100 mm is not armor?
        The author never wrote anything like this.

        The popular myth about the "armor" of the heavy nuclear cruisers "Orlan" is debunked in the most obvious way
        A myth is something unrealistic. That is, 50-75-100 mm of Orlan armor is something unrealistic?

        Quote: Santa Fe
        YABCh has nothing to do with it.
        Is that why some Soviet anti-ship missiles were equipped with nuclear warheads? The ability of any ship with a 152mm gun to fire nuclear weapons is a costly proposition. Unless, of course, it's a fleet of "doves of peace."
        1. +2
          27 February 2026 05: 44
          So, 50-75-100 mm of Orlan armor is something unrealistic?

          Local protection for multiple compartments

          As in other projects of the late 20th century.

          Based on data found in open sources, the proportion of protective elements in a cruiser's displacement is somewhere around 1 or perhaps 2%. This ratio is lower than that of the tin-plated destroyers of the WWII era, which were never considered well-protected ships.
          1. -2
            27 February 2026 06: 11
            Quote: Santa Fe
            Local protection for multiple compartments

            As in other projects of the late 20th century.

            In Orlan, these "several compartments" occupy almost half the ship's length. Unlike the Kevlar protection of the main control module (GCM) in other designs.

            Quote: Santa Fe
            Based on data found in open sources, the proportion of protective elements in a cruiser's displacement is somewhere around 1 or perhaps 2%. This ratio is lower than that of the tin-plated destroyers of the WWII era, which were never considered well-protected ships.
            This is some kind of fairy tale. Because destroyers had no protection at all, not even their boiler rooms, engine rooms, magazines, and so on, except for the main gun emplacement and the bridge (and even that's not a given). Bunkers and echeloning were the most they could afford.
            Unlike the engine rooms, missile launchers of the Granit system, reactor compartments, helicopter hangars, kerosene storage, and aircraft ammunition magazine. Plus, reinforced plating along the entire length of the waterline. In other words, the armor of a light cruiser. +-
            1. +5
              27 February 2026 06: 30
              In Orlan, these "several compartments" take up almost half the length of the ship.

              If half of the cruiser was protected by armor of the specified thickness (50-100 mm), it would not look like an empty box with a side height of 10 meters and a 30-meter pyramid of the superstructure.
              Plus reinforced sheathing along the entire length at the waterline

              It's a shearstrake, like on any ship. That's where the hull load peaks.
              The destroyers had no defense at all.

              Gun shields, torpedo tube casings - a total of a couple of percent of the small ship's displacement
              That is, the armor of a light cruiser is +-

              The light cruiser had a lower side than a modern 4000-ton frigate.

              Guess why
              1. 0
                27 February 2026 10: 03

                Quote: Santa Fe
                Plus reinforced sheathing along the entire length at the waterline
                It's a shearstrake, like on any ship. That's where the hull load peaks.

                Sheerstrake or sheerstrake belt (English sheerstrake) - upper belt the outer hull plating of a ship, adjacent to the main deck.
                The UPPER chord has nothing to do with the reinforcement of the plating just above and below the waterline. Even if the main deck isn't the upper deck...

                Quote: Santa Fe
                Gun shields, torpedo tube casings - a total of a couple of percent of the small ship's displacement
                So you're claiming that the shell-proof armor (100mm, even today, is shell-proof) of several extended compartments, especially those not located right at the side, is relatively equal to the bulletproof armor of several posts? Well, let's assume so, although it's unlikely. But is it qualitatively equal? ​​Because a 100-kg bomb in the engine room of a Type 7 or even a Type 7-U destroyer would almost certainly have disabled the destroyer.
                Well, one square of 100mm armor weighs at least 700 kg. And Orlan has approximately 500 of these squares per side. And then there are the traverses and armored decks, 50-75mm thick.

                Quote: Santa Fe
                The light cruiser had a lower side than a modern 4000-ton frigate.
                Guess why
                I don't even know. Maybe it's because this light cruiser had a 10,000-ton displacement? With a comparable length? Or because of the four 152mm armored turrets? Let's remove those turrets and then compare. Or let's cover the frigate's vital compartments with 100mm armor. Or remember that there were noticeably lighter "light" cruisers. Like the "K" class, for example.
                Or even better. Let's compare a truly empty, unarmored "box" with a heavy cruiser with light cruiser armor. Incidentally, it's funny, but the unarmored "box," forgive me, shipbuilders and sailors, had two sides at the waterline: 25 and 46 mm. To me, the proportions don't favor the icebreaker.

                Quote: Santa Fe
                If half of the cruiser was protected by armor of the specified thickness (50-100 mm), it would not look like an empty box with a side height of 10 meters and a 30-meter pyramid of the superstructure.
                1. +2
                  27 February 2026 10: 53
                  .i. you claim that the projectile-proof (100 mm even now is projectile-proof) armor of several extended compartments, and even those not located right at the side, is relatively equal to the bulletproof armor of several posts

                  The standard displacement of a Type Seven destroyer is 1500 tons.
                  1% is 15 tons. This includes the weight of the gun shields, the splinter protection of the conning tower, etc.

                  The Orlan's displacement is 24,000 tons.
                  1% is 240 tons.

                  It's quite enough to build local protection for some compartments. As with other modern ships.

                  Can a cruiser be considered armored? In theory, anything goes. In practice, all ships of the past (of cruiser rank and above), where armor was not just a lip service, spent at least 10% of their displacement on that armor.

                  For this reason, those ships, even with a large displacement, had low sides, a light superstructure and looked very unsightly in comparison with modern ones.
                  Perhaps because this light cruiser had a displacement of 10 thousand tons?

                  Yes, and that makes it even funnier.

                  Even the mighty Belfast, with its 10,000 tons, looks like a runt compared to a modern 4000-ton frigate.
                  Or because of the 4,152mm armored turrets? Let's remove those turrets and then compare.

                  It won't change much

                  The Belfast towers weighed 185 tons each.
                  The mass of the armor installed in the hull is 1800 tons (excluding the turrets, of course)

                  By the way, it's funny, but the "box" is unarmored

                  It had a continuous superstructure from side to side, 30 meters wide and 40 meters high above the waterline. Arktika-class icebreaker (1972)

                  Without large amounts of metal and dense, heavy components in the hull, all ships and vessels, regardless of purpose, take on a uniform appearance. Displacement reserves are wasted on hull structures that extend tens of meters into the air.
                  1. -2
                    27 February 2026 11: 28
                    Quote: Santa Fe
                    The Orlan's displacement is 24,000 tons.
                    1% is 240 tons.

                    It's quite enough to build local protection for some compartments. As with other modern ships.

                    240 tons is no more than 350 square meters of 100mm armor (less, just for convenience, I'm assuming 7000 kg per cubic meter). With about five hundred square meters of protection shown per ONE side. And there are two sides, plus traverses and roofs.

                    Quote: Santa Fe
                    For this reason, those ships, even with a large displacement, had very low sides and looked very unsightly in comparison with modern ones.
                    Well, neither Alaska nor even Iowa look low-sided. But that's a matter of taste and different senses of proportion.

                    Quote: Santa Fe
                    Even the mighty Belfast, with its 10,000 tons, looks like a runt compared to a modern 4000-ton frigate.
                    Well, even though I wrote that the dimensions are comparable, the Belfast is both longer and wider. And yes, it's essentially fully armored. The K-class cruiser, however, isn't quite so.

                    Quote: Santa Fe
                    It had a continuous superstructure from side to side, 30 meters wide and 40 meters high above the waterline. Arktika-class icebreaker (1972)

                    But here's where the situation gets funny. Because the freeboard is the same, but the icebreaker's superstructure is proportionally much larger, much larger.
                    And then either the cruiser will settle, or the icebreaker will rise even higher if their superstructures are proportionally changed, of course. The icebreaker's waterline belt is practically the same thickness as a cruiser's, at 71 mm. And that's across the entire waterline, if they're not lying. It's thicker than the K-class.
                    So, in case you've forgotten, Orlan most likely has some semblance of an armor belt. Not to mention the estimated 700-800 tons of "local" armor.
                    1. +4
                      27 February 2026 12: 00
                      Not counting approximately 700-800 tons of "local" armor.

                      No 700-800 tons will be enough to realize the fantasies about 100 mm protection for all launchers, and 70 mm for magazines and decks, and reactors and control posts, etc. (List in the illustration) It would weigh thousands of tons., just sit down and do the math. The dimensions are known, the material is steel.

                      Such a solution would have consumed the entire reserve displacement - which in reality was spent on building a hull the size of the Yamato
                      Somehow, neither Alaska nor even Iowa look low-sided.

                      They certainly look like this. The Iowa's midship height is only 5 meters (Orlan has almost 10!), and a low, small superstructure
                      Because the freeboard is the same, but the icebreaker's superstructure is proportionally much larger, much larger.

                      The icebreaker's freeboard is much lower, about 6 meters amidships. However, the superstructure is more spacious.

                      When changing the order of the terms…
                      But the icebreaker's belt has a practically cruising thickness of 71 mm.

                      The icebreaker didn't waste its reserve displacement on weapons. It can afford thick plating.
                      1. 0
                        1 March 2026 12: 20
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        The height of the Iowa's side at midship is only 5 meters (Orlan's is almost 10!), and the superstructure is low and small
                        It's astonishing, perhaps because, in addition to the superstructure, which is heavily armored in places, it also has three turrets? And, by the way, the Yamato, even thicker-skinned, has a superstructure—which you clearly include the tower-like mast/smoke stack for the Orlan—that's no smaller or lower than the Orlan's, plus a separate smokestack.


                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        The icebreaker's freeboard is much lower, about 6 meters amidships. However, the superstructure is more spacious.

                        When changing the order of the terms…
                        The word "proportionately" means changing dimensions to maintain proportions. So if, for you, a superstructure/box that's the full width, two-thirds long, and two-and-a-half times the freeboard of a ship is proportional to a superstructure on a ship that's two-thirds wide, half the length, and a maximum height of one-and-a-half times the freeboard, then how can you even calculate anything based on appearance?
                        Again, the icebreaker is 3500 tons lighter.
                        By the way, where does the height of the side of the ship "almost" 10 meters come from? We look at the portholes, take into account the height of the habitable compartments (2 meters), and see that it's no more than 8 meters.


                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        The icebreaker didn't waste its reserve displacement on weapons. It can afford thick plating.
                        Well, I see. For a 10000-ton ship, four 150-ton turrets is nothing, and several hundred tons of other armament won't affect the draft, but for a 20000-ton vessel, 1000 tons is critical. Understood.
                        Yes, for the Orlan, God willing, all the weapons, including radar, with a 1000-1500-ton ammunition load will be enough, and I'm giving that with a margin. Because 20 Granit missiles are only 140 tons, with a 250-300-ton launcher.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Such a solution would have consumed the entire reserve displacement - which in reality was spent on building a hull the size of the Yamato
                        What nonsense... It seems like you don't understand the difference between 50-100mm armor and 305-460mm.
                        Divide 18000 tons by three; the minimum is 100 mm where 305-406 mm is. And subtract 12000 from the Iowa standard, the difference of 100 mm from 305 mm.
                        Yes, minus 4500 tons for three turrets. And I'd like to see how much such a "battleship" floats.

                        Quote: Santa Fe

                        No 700-800 tons would be enough to realize the fantasies of 100 mm of protection for all launchers, and 70 mm for magazines and decks, and reactors and control posts, etc. (List in the illustration). This would weigh thousands of tons; just sit down and do the math. The dimensions are known, the material is steel.

                        Exactly, sit down and do the math. Where did you get that 240-ton figure? I just gave the bare minimum, a rough estimate, for armor. 150 x 10 m x 0,1 m is only 1200 tons – 2400 for both sides + 1000 for the roofs/traverses. 15 percent of the main battleship's capacity. What's the neck-deep draft?! The Iowa, for example, has 39 percent armor, and that's without the rotating parts of the turrets...
                      2. 0
                        2 March 2026 07: 17
                        Vladimir, let's highlight the main points.

                        1. Instead of “700-800 tons,” we came up with a value of 3400 tons.

                        2. You think about the armor of battleships—18,000 tons of armor—but you forget that all this protection was located no higher than 3 meters above the waterline (photo should be attached)

                        What you are going to cover with armor on Orlan, would require the placement of armor plates in the upper part of the hull, at a height of up to 10 meters, for example, anti-aircraft missiles or Kinzhal air defense missile systems are located generally on the forecastle, where the freeboard is even higher

                        3400 as the equivalent of 10 thousand, when the shoulder is increased threefold, the moment of the overturning force increases threefold

                        And let's not forget the "upper weight" from the superstructure and hull structures. The main volume of the hull, all the compartments, stations, and armament of the Orlan are located where, in former times, the cries of seagulls and the hum of the wind above the ship were heard.

                        At the same time, the reserve displacement is three times less

                        The fantasy of the Orlan's half-hull armor being a hoax is just someone's imagination. This happens frequently in sources, and it's a pleasure to find these inconsistencies.

                        Where does 240 tons come from? That's exactly 1% of the displacement. Same as other ships built during the same period. It could even be 2 or 3% for local protection, due to the cruiser's large size. Because the ratio of load items changes nonlinearly.

                        The level of protection with such indicators? Absolutely nothing. To put it into perspective, these are the protection indicators of WWII destroyers, which were called "tin cans."
                      3. 0
                        2 March 2026 10: 08
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        What you are going to cover with armor on the Orlan would require the placement of armor plates in the upper part of the hull, at a height of up to 10 meters, for example, the anti-submarine missiles or the Kinzhal air defense missile systems are located generally on the forecastle, where the freeboard is even higher

                        3400 as the equivalent of 10 thousand, when the shoulder is increased threefold, the moment of the overturning force increases threefold

                        It's laughable. What equivalent, what 10,000 tons? What are you making up? At least half of what's described in many sources is right at the waterline, give or take. Or are your reactors and turbines located near the upper deck, where you sent the reinforced belt last time?
                        And the remaining 1,600 tons aren't all on the upper deck, as you're trying to imagine. And not even along the sides, but along the compartment boundaries of the Granit and Fort ships, although the Fort ships' armor isn't even mentioned. This means the armor is positioned above the waterline and at a noticeable distance from the sides, closer to the centerline, the same weight and position as just a pair of 305mm turrets on the Imperiya Maria. Which is nothing for a 24-kilogram ship. So, your "shoulder" is nonsense.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        All the premises, posts and weapons of the Orlan are located where in former times the cries of seagulls and the hum of the wind over the ship were heard

                        What poetic nonsense. All posts, except for some antennas, are not above, but below the level of the wheelhouse, which is a maximum of 25 meters. And that's if you count the freeboard as 10 meters.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        At the same time, the reserve displacement is three times less
                        Do you understand the meaning of this word?


                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Where do 240 tons come from? This is exactly 1% of the displacement... ..What is the level of protection with such indicators?

                        You made that figure up. A simple analysis shows that the Orlan's armor is at least equivalent to that of an armored cruiser, given its draft and freeboard.
                        Thus, the engine rooms, missile magazines of the Granit missile systems, and reactor compartments are protected by 100 mm of armor on the sides (70 mm below the waterline) and 70 mm on the deck. The ship's combat information post and main command post, located inside the hull at waterline level, also receive armor protection: they are protected by 100 mm side walls with a 75 mm roof and beams. In addition, at the stern of the cruiser, armor is installed on the sides (70 mm) and on the roof (50 mm) of the helicopter hangar, as well as around the ammunition and aviation fuel storage area. Local armor is also present above the steering gear compartments.
                      4. 0
                        4 March 2026 10: 56
                        although there is no talk of armoring the Forts.

                        You are going to leave the most vulnerable and dangerous (ammunition) without any protection laughing

                        Or do you think 96 heavy SAMs burn less efficiently than anti-ship missiles? Then consider the Otvazhny large anti-ship missile ship (a fire in the magazine, detonation of 16 SAMs).

                        They wanted to reserve the turbines))
                        a. All posts, except for some antenna posts, are not above, but below the level of the wheelhouse, which is a maximum of 25 m.

                        Sir, in the era of Iowa and Yamato, such values ​​were unknown and could not be imagined. The upper deck was 5 meters above the waterline.
                      5. 0
                        4 March 2026 15: 40
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        You are going to leave the most vulnerable and dangerous (ammunition) without any protection laughing
                        Or do you think that 96 heavy SAMs burn weaker than anti-ship missiles?

                        My estimate of 3200 tons of armor is quite reasonable for the Forts' armor. It's just that the description doesn't mention it.

                        But overall, the whole stupidity of your assertion about 1% armor and, accordingly, 240 tons for the Orlan is shattered by the area of ​​the ship at the waterline: 200 * 25 = 5000. 2500 tons, which, if thrown directly onto the deck, on an already fully equipped ship, would submerge it by only half a meter...
                        You don't know how to count...


                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Sir, in the Iowa and Yamato eras such meanings were not known and could not be imagined.

                        The Yamato's superstructure tower rose 28 meters above the upper deck. The command bridge was located in the middle, with a rangefinder at the very top and a fire control tower directly below it.
                        And the upper deck, in the middle, is 8 meters from the water.
                        You don't know how to count, and you know little about the subject...
                      6. 0
                        5 March 2026 07: 46
                        There's just nothing about it in the description.

                        It's not in the description because someone made it upWithout going into too much detail, if older ships indicated the armor thickness above/below the waterline or beam, they decided to include it here as well, to give the text a more scientific feel.

                        Those who drew the picture (which you attached above with the armor sections highlighted in blue) realized that without the Fort SAM system protection, the diagram would look suspiciously stupid. And they indicated the presence of armor in that area.

                        The only thing these dreamers didn't take into account was that a modern ship is not designed to be armored. The sides are too high, and critical compartments, as luck would have it, are located at the very top of the hull, below the upper deck

                        Thanks to its lightweight design, the cruiser has a narrow and very long hull, typical of ships of its time. Unlike battleships, it would not have had stability issues.
                        And the upper deck, in the middle, is 8 meters from the water.

                        You either don't know or you're deliberately pretending.

                        Like many Japanese designs, the Yamato had a curved hull. The maximum height was reached at the midships, while the rest of the hull was lower (see photo).
                        they'll only load it half a meter...

                        It will not sink but will tip over due to the upper weight.

                        Do you think it's for nothing that the Yamato designers fought so hard for every centimeter of hull height and tried to place the armor closer to the waterline?

                        In your fantasies, you so easily lift thousands of tons of metal to a height of 10 meters.

                        When in reality, the designers of much larger ships, with hulls of smaller elongation and fuller contours, were afraid to raise the armored deck by an extra 10 centimeters
                      7. 0
                        5 March 2026 09: 35
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Thanks to its lightweight design, the cruiser has a narrow and very long hull, typical for ships of its time.

                        The width of the hull according to the design waterline is 25 m, with a length of 230 - this is Alaska, with a VI of 30,000 tons.
                        You don't know anything...

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        The only thing that the dreamers didn’t take into account is that a modern ship is not designed in principle to be armored.

                        I see you have the complete Orlan drawings available...

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Thanks to its lightweight design, the cruiser has a narrow and very long hull, typical of ships of its time. Unlike battleships, it would not have had stability issues.

                        This isn't even funny, it's downright embarrassing... A long, narrow ship with a shallow draft is extremely problematic in terms of stability. Oh well, we'll chalk it up to a typo...

                        Quote: Santa Fe

                        You either don't know or you're deliberately pretending...
                        Like many Japanese designs, the Yamato had a curved hull. The maximum height was reached at the midships, while the rest of the hull was lower (see photo).

                        You're either just pretending or simply missing a simple point. The height of the ship's hull, combined with the height of the superstructure, demonstrates the utter stupidity of your poetic assertion. The bridge was at a height of 8 + 14 = 22 meters!, while the control tower was at a height of 36 meters.
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        All the premises, posts and weapons of the Orlan are located where in former times the cries of seagulls and the hum of the wind over the ship were heard


                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        In your fantasies, you so easily lift thousands of tons of metal to a height of 10 meters.

                        I used those thousands as an example of a negligible change in draft, and therefore freeboard, but you raised the reactor and the MKO to the upper deck with a steady hand...
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        critical compartments, as luck would have it, are located at the very top of the hull, below the upper deck

                        This is already beyond the pale, it is not even justified by the inability to count and ignorance of the issue you are discussing.
                        10 x 10 x 0,1 x 2 is a total of 160 tons of side armor for the forts, 10 x 10 x 0,05 x 3 is a total of 120 tons for the roof and traverses. A total of 280 tons for the forts' armor.
                        But since you don’t know how, it’s not for you.
                      8. 0
                        5 March 2026 10: 55
                        The width of the hull according to the design waterline is 25 m, with a length of 230 - this is Alaska, with a VI of 30,000 tons.

                        Alaska is a bad example in your case.

                        The armor weight is 5000 tons, all that could be provided in such a hull - with the armor placed at the VL level
                        A narrow and long ship with a shallow draft is extremely problematic in terms of stability.

                        Bingo! That's what I meant. Even with such a long and narrow body, Orlan has no problems because there's no excess "top weight."

                        Further evidence that the hull is very light, and that there are no thousands of tons of armor under the upper deck.
                        I gave these thousands as an example of a negligible change in precipitation.

                        This does not mean that you can arbitrarily load the hull, since the ship will capsize much sooner.

                        A 10-meter side means the hull is light, and there is nothing massive at the upper deck level.

                        If you want armor, you can't put it high. The side will have to be lower.
                        The command bridge was at a height of 8 + 14 = 22 meters!, and the control tower was at a height of 36 meters.

                        Look at the displacement of the Yamato.


                        What's surprising is that even with such a high power, the Japanese had to economize and fight with the upper weight; the curved upper deck in some places dropped to four meters above the overhead line level.
                        10*10*0,1*2 is only 160 tons of side armor

                        Where did you get the idea about 10 meters?

                        The dimensions of the Fort air defense missile system compartment are significantly larger

                        Ps /
                        Will you be defending the Kinzhal air defense missile system? Or will this do?
                      9. 0
                        6 March 2026 05: 52
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        The armor weight is 5000 tons, all that could be provided in such a hull - with the armor placed at the VL level

                        What, all three main battery turrets, and two armored decks, and armored anti-aircraft artillery were placed at the waterline level?! laughing
                        You are talking complete nonsense...
                        Not to mention that you've somehow DERESTIMATED the citadel armor, ignoring the weight of three main gun turrets with barbettes, six 127mm turrets, the mass of the posts, and the small caliber AA, which are also armored. Nothing special, forget about the minimum 3000 tons of armor...
                        Light armor is still armor, no matter what you imagine.






                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        The dimensions of the Fort air defense missile system compartment are significantly larger

                        Five, ten times more?
                        Forts and Granites occupy 35*12*10 m and are located BELOW the upper deck and up to the waterline, with sides of 100 mm and three traverses and a roof of 50 and will require armor of 812 tons.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Will you be defending the Kinzhal air defense missile system? Or will this do?
                        4 Kinzhal batteries that are located BELOW the upper deck will require 5*10*0,05*2*8*4 = 160 tons of 50 mm armor, excluding traverses and roof, but with double-sided armor.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Look at the displacement of the Yamato.
                        I'm referring to your stupidity about Orlan's heights being inaccessible to battleships.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Bingo! That's what I meant. Even with such a long and narrow
                        Orlan has no problems with his body because he doesn't have any excess "upper weight"

                        Once again I am convinced that you know nothing about the subject, let alone understand it...
                        9,2 to 1 is the ratio of a HEAVY cruiser, while light cruisers and destroyers have a ratio of 10-11 to 1.
                        And why would a cruiser with the armor of a light cruiser have the same length-to-width ratio as a heavy cruiser, but at the same time the same draft?
                        Although who am I asking?

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Further evidence that the hull is very light, and that there are no thousands of tons of armor under the upper deck.
                        A person who believes that the reactor and engine room are located ABOVE the upper deck of the ship is, to put it mildly, far from the seafaring business.
                        A slightly softer characterization would be given to a person who denies that the Orlan's main armament is BELOW the upper deck.
                      10. 0
                        6 March 2026 06: 20
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Further evidence that the hull is very light, and that there are no thousands of tons of armor under the upper deck.

                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        A person who believes that the reactor and engine room are located ABOVE the upper deck of the ship is, to put it mildly, far from the seafaring business.
                        A slightly softer characterization would be given to a person who denies that the Orlan's main armament is BELOW the upper deck.

                        I didn't quite get it, but that doesn't change the point. You clearly and stubbornly believe that this armor should be located at the VERY top deck, ignoring the actual location of the mechanisms and weapons.
                      11. 0
                        6 March 2026 08: 46
                        two armored decks, and armored anti-aircraft artillery placed at the waterline level?

                        Naturally.
                        A narrow belt line, the main deck traditionally at the same level as the main deck. Some are slightly higher, some slightly lower. The Alaska's upper deck is only three meters above the water, so there's no way a situation like placing armor at some "high altitude" could arise.

                        The main battery turrets were calculated separately. 3x750 tons. That would seem to be it. But they're positioned very low due to the squat hull. Yes, they're above the upper deck, but in reality, they're only a few meters above the water.
                        about the inaccessible heights of Orlan for battleships.

                        The hull was discussed. Where Alaska had the tops of its towers, Orlan's hull structures continue at that height.
                        Forts and Granites occupy 35*12*10 m

                        I understand that you are counting by the launcher covers on the upper deck and based on this you are making assumptions about the sizes of the weapons compartments.

                        Well, I have to disappoint you.

                        for example, granites have PU inclined at 45 degrees
                        The Fort has drum-type launchers and its compartment occupies almost the entire width of the hull - there are photos on the Internet that make the dimensions of this room clear

                        The Orlan's creators didn't particularly strive for compactness, because they never intended to armor these compartments.
                        4 Dagger batteries which are located BELOW the upper deck,

                        Yes, below, you made an amazing discovery.

                        The nose group of the launchers is located at a height over 10 m above the water...because the hull is in this place rises even more

                        Alaska 3D model,
                        https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/alaska-6758e6293c344700922d1873dc4c2e16
                        You can also see the Orlan there, check out the fullness of its contours, the side and the height of the weapon placement
                      12. 0
                        7 March 2026 14: 43
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        a narrow belt line, the main deck is traditionally at the level of the overhead line. Some are slightly higher, some are slightly lower.

                        You don't know anything, you're completely incompetent in the matter, or you don't even know how to lie anymore...
                        The main deck of battleships is the deck with the greatest thickness of armor, which was located on level of the upper edge lower armor belt, that is, it was the upper ceiling of the citadel
                        .
                        That is, the main deck of armored ships CANNOT be at the waterline level.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        But they're located very low due to the squat hull. Yes, they're above the upper deck, but in reality, they're only a few meters above the water.

                        Very low, that's on roofs no lower than 7 meters for the first and third towers, and 10 meters for the second tower. You're seriously talking nonsense.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        about the inaccessible heights of Orlan for battleships.
                        The case was discussed.

                        Do not lie.
                        Quote: Vladimir_2U
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        All the premises, posts and weapons of the Orlan are located where in former times the cries of seagulls and the hum of the wind over the ship were heard

                        What poetic nonsense. All posts, except for some antennas, are not above, but below the level of the wheelhouse, which is a maximum of 25 meters. And that's if you count the freeboard as 10 meters.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        a. All posts, except for some antenna posts, are not above, but below the level of the wheelhouse, which is a maximum of 25 m.
                        Sir, in the era of Iowa and Yamato, such meanings were not known and could not be imagined.


                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        for example, granites have PU inclined at 45 degrees

                        So this doesn't change much in terms of the area of ​​protection. Isn't it clear?
                        The length is greater, but the height on the sides is smaller. And the area of ​​the rectangle, and therefore the weight of the armor, when transformed into a parallelogram, remains unchanged. Basics.


                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        The Fort has drum-type launchers and its compartment occupies almost the entire width of the hull - there are photos on the Internet that make the dimensions of this room clear

                        Tell your fairy tales to someone else. Who, like you, bends reality to fit their own fantasies.
                        The drum on the 8-TPK is slightly larger than the lid. Otherwise, they wouldn't fit together so tightly.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Yes, below, you made an amazing discovery.
                        The bow group of the launchers is located at a height of over 10 m above the water... because the hull rises even more at this point
                        Oh, and how much more does the stern rise? Oh, suddenly the stern pair of Kinzhal launchers is noticeably LOWER than the upper deck... Or is it something else?
                        But that doesn't matter. Because all four systems, including armor, would weigh as much as six 127mm twin turrets. Total.
                        You're missing a simple point: a ship with the proportions of a heavy cruiser, but with the armor of a light cruiser, will have the draft of a light cruiser, but the ENTIRE broadside of a heavy cruiser. And that's not even counting the main battery turrets, which alone weigh as much as almost the entire armament of the Project 1144.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        The Alaska's upper deck is only three meters above the water, so there could be no situation where armor could be placed at some "high altitude"

                        You still don't see the obvious... This is simply ignoring reality...
                        And they didn’t care about the armoring of command posts, and universal and anti-aircraft artillery.
                        You can't count, you don't know the basics, you ignore the obvious, and you lie every other time...

                        The man in the photo is approximately 170 cm. Can you multiply 170 by three?
                      13. 0
                        11 March 2026 06: 55
                        Так это мало что меняет в плане площади защиты. Неужели не понятно?Больше длина, зато меньше высота по бокам. И площадь прямоугольника, а значит и вес брони, превращенного в параллелограмм не меняется. Азы.

                        Владимир ну и конструктор, ха-ха-ха

                        Параллелограмм у вас. Нет, у вас теперь ◿-образный зазор между отсеками Гранитов и Форта
                        Бахнем пару траверзных переборок? Или оставим как есть, и так сойдет))
                        That is, the main deck of armored ships CANNOT be at the waterline level.

                        Even as you can.
                        «В отличие от линкоров предыдущего проекта (Scharnhorst и Gneisenau), где в результате перегрузки главная бронепалуба оказалась ниже ватерлинии, на Bismarck и Tirpitz она располагалась несколько выше ватерлинии” (несколько — в данном случае менее 1 метра)
                        Очень низко, это по крышам не ниже 7 м первая и третья

                        Ну вот, вы сами пришли к этой мысли

                        Где у Аляски крыши башен - у Орлана на такой высоте (и выше) продолжается корпус, на всем его протяжении 200+ метров
                        Барабан на 8 ТПК незначительно превышает по размерам крышку.

                        Открываем, смотрим фото отсека. Не заметно, чтобы конструкторы Олана стремились к компактности

                        The man in the photo is approximately 170 cm. Can you multiply 170 by three?

                        Любитель считать человечков. На фото с Орланом, насколько надо умножить 170? )))

                        вас ничего в такой разнице не смущает? Кстати, водизмещение Орлана на четверть меньше чем у Аляски
                      14. 0
                        11 March 2026 17: 39
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Параллелограмм у вас. Нет, у вас теперь ◿-образный зазор между отсеками Гранитов и Форта

                        О боже, разоблачение века! Что бы прикрыть ужасный дельтаобразный зазор, две штуки, надо целых 67 тонны брони, с ума сойти. Или целую ещё одну траверсу 12*10*0,05*8 в 48 тонн.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Even as you can.
                        «В отличие от линкоров предыдущего проекта (Scharnhorst и Gneisenau), где в результате перегрузки главная бронепалуба оказалась ниже ватерлинии, на Bismarck и Tirpitz она располагалась несколько выше ватерлинии”

                        О, "ещё как может" у целых одних немцев? Да ещё и в результате ошибки? Да ещё и с умалчиванием о верхней броневой палубе?
                        Well, the flag in their hands.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Где у Аляски крыши башен - у Орлана на такой высоте (и выше) продолжается корпус, на всем его протяжении 200+ метров
                        Я поражаюсь, вы даже на картинку предмета спора посмотреть не желаете. Ют Орланов НИЖЕ верхней палубы на два метра минимум.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Открываем, смотрим фото отсека. Не заметно, чтобы конструкторы Олана стремились к компактности
                        И что мы видим? Что блоки ТПК расположены вплотную к продольной переборке? И что пустое пространство соответствует отсутствующему второму ряду пусковых барабанов? Ах да, вы же принципиально не рассматриваете изображения объекта спора.
                        Поздравляю, вы не в состоянии понять, что ваши слова об отсеке ЗРК Форт "от борта до борта" - глупость.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Любитель считать человечков.
                        А что поделать, если вы не в состоянии метрами оперировать? У вас же что три, что пять м. - всё едино.
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Верхняя палуба Аляски всего в трех метрах над водой


                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        На фото с Орланом, насколько надо умножить 170? )))
                        Вы и это не в состоянии выполнить? Ах да, вы же считать не умеете... Да и о предмете спора мало что знаете. ТПК "Форт" "Форт-М" - 8 метров, высота отсека 10+- метра.
                        8/1,7 = 4,7, 10/1,7=5,88

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Ну вот, вы сами пришли к этой мысли
                        Если вы о глупости, что тяжёлый крейсер не в состоянии нести броню лёгкого, без потери в высоте надводного борта.? То нет, не пришёл, я и считать и пропорции видеть, и просто видеть - в состоянии. В отличие...
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Кстати, водизмещение Орлана на четверть меньше чем у Аляски
                        Поразительно... Оказывается более крупный, с минимум троекратно более толстой бронёй, и троекратно более тяжёлым вооружением корабль тяжелее чем меньший, слабее защищённый и с намного более лёгким вооружением.
                        Ваши открытия ещё сильнее чем ваши разоблачения...
                        А вас не смущает, что без брони 17% от СВ и трёх башен Аляска весила бы, при 29015 метр. т. ст. вм. всего 22400 тонн? При 700 т. снарядов ГК, не считая универсалок и прочего?
                        Ой, как же так, почему это "вообще небронированный" Орлан на 1300 тонн тяжелее по настоящему небронированного, но при этом более крупного корабля?
                        И надстройка тут не отговорка, потому что АмГ сплавы, которые в ней широко использовались, в 2,5 раз легче стали. И высота борта тоже, потому что компенсируется длиной и шириной Аляски.
                        А ведь есть оценка брони и в 28 %, которая явно ближе к истине.
                        И Нью-Джерси, без брони, башен ГК и снарядов весил бы всего 23000 тонн... А уж он куда крупнее Орлана.
                      15. 0
                        12 March 2026 08: 31
                        Или целую ещё одну траверсу 12*10*0,05*8 в 48 тонн.

                        Почему одну?))
                        О, "ещё как может" у целых одних немцев?

                        Так было всегда, Владимир.
                        Даже у такого крупного линкора, как Айова, верхняя кромка пояса 1,4 метра выше ВЛ
                        Я поражаюсь, вы даже на картинку предмета спора посмотреть не желаете. Ют Орланов НИЖЕ верхней палубы на два метра минимум.

                        Верно. Это еще несколько десятков метров — в дополнение к 200+ м корпуса где высота борта 10 и более метров
                        And what do we see?

                        Мы видим пространство в несколько метров между рядами барабанов с ТПК. С какого борта сделан кадр неясно. По расположению крышек на палубе, один из промежутков явно больше другого.

                        внешний диаметр колец ~4 м, три параллельных ряда — два близко и один в стороне, и пространство разделяющее их.
                        А вас не смущает, что без брони 17% от СВ и трёх башен Аляска весила бы, при 29015 метр. т. ст. вм. всего 22400 тонн?

                        Площадь ватерлинии Аляски ~5500 кв. метров. Всеравно до долей сантиметра считать осадку не станем.

                        Каждая 1000 тонн изменяет величину осадки примерно на 18 см. Вы уже догадались, что это значит

                        Лишившись всей брони корпуса и главного калибра, Аляска так и останется низкобортной шаландой — в сравнении с Орланом

                        А вопрос-то был — откуда у Орлана такая высота корпуса. И ответ очевиден — легкая начинка. За легкими переборками по большей части воздух.

                        А вы ему тысячи тонн металла на 10 метровую высоту громоздить придумали
                      16. 0
                        Today, 16: 02
                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Или целую ещё одну траверсу 12*10*0,05*8 в 48 тонн.

                        Почему одну?))

                        Потому что три траверза для двух смежных отсеков, уже были посчитаны.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Так было всегда, Владимир.
                        Даже у такого крупного линкора, как Айова, верхняя кромка пояса 1,4 метра выше ВЛ

                        Вы на голубом глазу утверждаете что 1,4 м от ватерлинии это и есть на уровне ватерлинии? Это вообще то почти треть от высоты надводного борта... Не считая такой мелочи как скосы, благодаря которым палуба выше кромки пояса.
                        И того, что помимо основной бронепалубы, была ещё одна, а то и две "взводящие" бронепалубы.
                        Если это не считать глупостью, или забывчивостью, то это называется "врать в глаза".

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Верно. Это еще несколько десятков метров — в дополнение к 200+ м корпуса где высота борта 10 и более метров


                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Где у Аляски крыши башен - у Орлана на такой высоте (и выше) продолжается корпус, на всем его протяжении 200+ метров

                        Вы же сочинили про ВЕСЬ корпус в 10 и более метров высотой.
                        Вы же уже просто на враньё, причём глупое, потому что легко проверяемое, идёте... Вы о предмете ничего, даже картинки, не знаете.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Мы видим пространство в несколько метров между рядами барабанов с ТПК. С какого борта сделан кадр неясно. По расположению крышек на палубе, один из промежутков явно больше другого.

                        Всё предельно ясно и просто, если хоть чуточку смотреть на предмет.
                        Зазор, макс 4 метра, это отсутствующий ряд ПУ, а значит показан угол заднего траверза и левой продольной переборки.
                        Диаметр барабана 3,8 м. Барабаны по продольной расположены вплотную друг к другу и почти вплотную к продольной переборке. Это очевидно, если глаза разуть.
                        Т.е. размер отсека 16*16-18 м., я несколько ошибся в оценке ширины, но некритично. Потому что от продольной переборки до борта всё равно не менее 4-5 м.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Площадь ватерлинии Аляски ~5500 кв. метров. Все равно до долей сантиметра считать осадку не станем.

                        Не знаю, откуда вы взяли эту цифру, но с учётом полноты 0,7, площадь по ВЛ:
                        Минимальная оценка 4526 м.кв.
                        Средняя оценка 4661 м.кв.
                        Эта площадь определяет «остойчивость веса» корабля: для изменения осадки «Аляски» на 1 см требовалось добавить или убрать около 46–48 тонн груза


                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        Каждая 1000 тонн изменяет величину осадки примерно на 18 см. Вы уже догадались, что это значит
                        То что вы эту цифру взяли как обычно, из воздуха? Или что, с учётом вашей склонностей, из оценок для линкоров?
                        Вес башен ГК (3 шт.): ~2 814 тонн.
                        Вес бронирования: ~8 422 тонны (это пояс, палубы, траверзы и боевая рубка).
                        Общий вес облегчения: 11 236 тонн
                        При облегчении на 11 тысяч тонн корабль выходит из воды настолько сильно, что стандартный показатель TPC (для ватерлинии) перестает быть точным. Площадь ватерлинии значительно сокращается по мере подъема днища к поверхности.
                        С учетом прогрессирующего уменьшения площади ватерлинии реальный подъем составит:
                        Если убрать с «Аляски» всю броню и главную артиллерию, корпус поднимется примерно на 3,7 метра.
                        Последствия для корабля: Осадка: Упадет с проектных 9,5 метров до ~5,8 метров.

                        Т.е. соотношение надводного борта к подводному станет заметно хуже чем для Орлана. 1,5 против 1,25. Вы уже догадались что это значит? wink
                        Остойчивость тут дело десятое, тут вопрос соотношений надводной и подводной высот борта.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        А вы ему тысячи тонн металла на 10 метровую высоту громоздить придумали
                        Вы продолжаете упорно писать глупость. Никаких тысяч тонн на 10 метрах нет. Максимум вес палубы и бронированных крыш отсеков вооружения, весьма ограниченных по площади. Которые легко парируются по остойчивости усиленным поясом и заглублёнными и забронированными механизмами.
                        Остальное то уходит вниз, да к самой ватерлинии и до бортов не доходит по ширине.
                        Но и это всё дело пятое.

                        Quote: Santa Fe
                        А вопрос-то был — откуда у Орлана такая высота корпуса. И ответ очевиден — легкая начинка. За легкими переборками по большей части воздух.

                        Вот именно... Только кроме этого, ещё и палуба с бортами не особо тяжелые. При толщине в 15 мм и высоте в 2,5 м это всего на оба борта и палубу - 150+588, ну накинем 100 на изгибы и корму. Это 838 тонн! Ну тысяча, с переборками и выгородками. Это чуть больше одной башни Аляски. Две башни и снаряды к ним, пять метров с двумя палубами...


                        Я наконец понял вашу принципиальную ошибку.
                        Высоту надводного небронированного борта для тяжелобронированных артиллерийских кораблей задрать, почти без потери брони и остойчивости, очень легко, ценой всего пары-тройки тысяч тонн брони, или оружия, на выбор.
                        Просто главным калибром нельзя будет пользоваться, и только...

                        А значит, ваше главное доказательство против возможности бронирования тяжёлого крейсера на уровне лёгкого - несостоятельно.

                        К тому же у Орлана и современных кораблей НЕТ такого ограничения, их главные калибры бьют ВВЕРХ. И соответственно прикрыть бронёй легкого крейсера отсеки вооружения, да ещё и расположенные на расстоянии от борта, да ещё и уходящие вниз - совершенно не проблема.
        2. 0
          27 February 2026 05: 49
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          The ability of any ship with a 152 mm gun to use nuclear weapons is expensive.

          Along the shore, perhaps...
          1. -2
            27 February 2026 06: 17
            Quote: Puncher
            Along the shore, perhaps...

            Well, at least that's true. But I think there's a use for such munitions in naval combat, too. There was some justification for equipping anti-ship missiles with nuclear warheads.
            1. 0
              27 February 2026 06: 49
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              But I think that such ammunition could also be used in a naval battle.

              Hmm... doubtful. A large ship wouldn't be able to reach that distance even today, since everyone has a helicopter to keep their distance. And targeting small ships with nuclear weapons is incredibly expensive, like hitting a louse with a sledgehammer.
              Artillery today is more used for air defense than for surface targets.
              1. +1
                27 February 2026 10: 39
                Quote: Puncher
                Hmm... doubtful. A large ship wouldn't be able to get that far, even today, since everyone has a helicopter to keep their distance.

                For example, attack a submarine that has suddenly shot down an anti-submarine helicopter. Or, after expending its anti-ship missiles—there aren't that many of them, and air defenses can easily intercept them—strike the same helicopter's targeting point over the horizon. Fortunately, jamming isn't a problem, and precision and accuracy aren't necessary. And distracting the enemy's attention with each 152mm-armed vessel, as if it were a nuclear weapon carrier, is also an advantage, in my opinion.
      2. +9
        27 February 2026 05: 44
        203mm guns were tested in our country and in the US. The trials were successful, but the wunderkinds were fascinated by the idea of ​​countering anti-ship missiles with universal artillery. The result was a lack of support for landings and the suppression of coastal targets.
        Regarding armor: absolutely correct. Unlike destroyers, a cruiser-class ship should have both high-explosive and splinter-resistant armor, as well as structural protection. However, these armor protections must be state-of-the-art.
        1. +2
          27 February 2026 05: 51
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          The tests were successful, but the child prodigies were fascinated by the idea of ​​fighting anti-ship missiles using universal artillery.

          Modern automatic artillery systems like the AK-100 can effectively destroy UAVs and unmanned aerial vehicles if they use canister shots.
          1. +3
            27 February 2026 06: 35
            UAVs and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) are low-speed targets, accessible to both 30mm and 203mm calibers. Japanese WWII Type 3 shells with a modern fuse are quite suitable for these purposes.
            Anti-ship missiles are a more difficult target for barrel artillery; a combination of short-range air defense systems and rapid-fire canisters is desirable.
        2. VlK
          +2
          27 February 2026 12: 38
          What kind of support for the landing force could this entail? A cruiser would approach the shore to within about 30 km and begin pulverizing enemy artillery positions and identified firing positions with its 8-inch guns? The lunar landscapes, trainloads of fired shells, and spent gun barrels, all while the strongholds in the LPR and DPR remain largely unsuppressed and intact, don't exactly convince us of the feasibility of such support. Will it fire salvos from Krasnopolye? Also unlikely. Furthermore, everything from anti-ship missiles and multiple launch rocket systems to guided munitions like the Lancet would be fired at it from the shore, as if it were a priority target. I wonder how long the order's air defenses will last to protect it from such threats?
    2. -2
      27 February 2026 07: 34
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      So the author thinks that 400 mm is armor, and 50-100 mm is not armor?

      Kaptsov is a fan of toooool armor. Back in 2012-15, he wrote a lot of articles about the need to increase armor...
      1. 0
        27 February 2026 11: 31
        Quote: your1970
        This is Kaptsov - a fan of toooool armor.

        Yes, I'm not an opponent either, but ignoring Orlan's very decent armor...
        1. -1
          27 February 2026 11: 42
          Quote: Vladimir_2U
          Quote: your1970
          This is Kaptsov - a fan of toooool armor.

          Yes, I'm not an opponent either, but ignoring Orlan's very decent armor...

          No, "not less than 300 mm" (c) - anything thinner is fuuuuuuuuu.
  3. +2
    27 February 2026 03: 47
    Without delving into the author's arguments, the conclusion is absolutely correct. "Trump's battleship" is stupid and wasteful. Unless, of course, it's a clever ploy to lure the Chinese into building a similar nonsense.
    1. -2
      27 February 2026 09: 41
      The same can be said about the Orlan in the current situation for the Russian Navy.
  4. +3
    27 February 2026 03: 55
    Trump-class battleships, with a displacement 3,5 times greater than the Ticonderogas, are expected to carry only... 128 UVP cells! That's a whopping 6 more cells! Other weapons and sensors don't weigh much more either. At least, not the equivalent of an extra 300 loaded cells.

    My first thought when I saw the spec was: What are they going to spend the displacement on?? Really, for armor? But no. If the preliminary design is already ready, and it's unarmored, then armor can't be added now. To do that, we'd have to redesign it from scratch.

    For its size, it appears to be very underarmed.

    I've heard some argue that the ship's displacement reserve will be used for the power plant and directed-energy weapons. But the power plant is planned to be non-nuclear. And lasers are lightweight.

    Really a "cabin-bearer"?
    1. +3
      27 February 2026 04: 06
      Quote: Pushkowed
      Really a "cabin-bearer"?

      Huge hypersonic missiles (why the hell!), a railgun (why the hell!) that requires a powerful propulsion system.
      Although there might be a mini "Epstein Island" with blackjack and hookers...
    2. 0
      27 February 2026 11: 45
      Quote: Pushkowed
      Really a "cabin-bearer"?

      He just decided to outdo the yachts of our oligarchs lol lol - They don't have a railgun, but he will!!!!
  5. 0
    27 February 2026 05: 14
    A battleship is like throwing everything into one basket. Previously, artillery fire was more accurate the less the ship rocked, i.e., the larger the ship, the less impact seas had on firing. But with guided missiles, there's no such correlation.
    1. +5
      27 February 2026 05: 26
      Previously, artillery fire was more accurate the less the ship rocked on the waves,

      Neither before nor now has pitching had any effect on shooting accuracy.

      The chain was closed and the shot occurred only at a given elevation angle, and not at any other.
      1. +3
        27 February 2026 05: 31
        Quote: Santa Fe
        Previously, artillery fire was more accurate the less the ship rocked on the waves,

        Neither before nor now has pitching had any effect on shooting accuracy.

        The chain was closed and the shot occurred only at a given elevation angle, and not at any other.

        The amplitude of the barrel movement was not only in the vertical plane when rocking
        1. +4
          27 February 2026 07: 00
          The amplitude of the barrel movement was not only in the vertical plane when rocking

          Roll, trim, azimuth, everything was taken into account

          Not to mention later stabilization systems

          If random hull movements affected firing, naval duels would be pointless. Naval weapons designers considered this first and foremost.
          1. +1
            27 February 2026 07: 58
            Quote: Santa Fe
            If random hull movements affected firing, there would be no point in naval duels.

            During World War II in the Mediterranean, tens of thousands of shells were expended in battles between the British and Italian fleets on convoy escort lines, but almost all ship sinkings were the result of aircraft and submarines. For example, on May 28, 1940, five British cruisers expended 5000 shells to sink a single Italian light destroyer, the Espero, with a displacement of 1600 tons. They only hit her with their 15th salvo. I don't think there were more sinkings of warships by artillery fire in battles in the Mediterranean during World War II. And in the Pacific, ships were also destroyed by aircraft.
            Well, also from the article on VO "On the accuracy of shooting in the Battle of Jutland"

            The British spent 4 538 heavy shells, including:
            1 179 - 381-mm;
            42 - 356-mm;
            1 533 - 343-mm;
            1 784 - 305-mm.
            But they only achieved 100 hits, or 2,20%.
            1. 0
              27 February 2026 08: 16
              But they only achieved 100 hits, or 2,20%.

              Do you think it's because of the pitching?))
              Previously, artillery fire was more accurate the less the ship rocked on the waves.
              1. +1
                27 February 2026 09: 03
                Quote: Santa Fe
                Do you think it's because of the pitching?))

                The Second Battle of Sirte, March 22, 1942, between the British and Italians. The Italians expended 1500 shells and scored only two hits. The British expended 1700 shells and scored no hits. The weather was stormy. Coincidence? I don't think so. Italian aircraft sank all four transports and one destroyer. The anti-aircraft artillery was quick-firing, but useless in the sea.
                1. +2
                  27 February 2026 09: 22
                  1700 shells and not a single hit.

                  To hit another moving ship from a moving ship. It was impossible to accurately determine the target's distance and course, especially in poor visibility and storms—laser rangefinders were not available in 1942.

                  And you also have to take into account the crosswind, the type of specific warhead, the amount of wear on the barrels (analog computers that took up an entire compartment of the ship tried to do this, and even then there was no guarantee of success)

                  Pitching was the least of the problems, something we learned to deal with back in the 19th century. Otherwise, naval artillery wouldn't have existed. What's the point of looking at rangefinders and calculating fractions of a degree if the deck is constantly shifting from under your feet, and the error will be tens of degrees?
                  1. +1
                    27 February 2026 09: 34
                    It turns out that aircraft carriers are much more effective than battleships.
                    Quote: Santa Fe
                    Get from a moving ship to another moving ship.

                    It turned out that it was possible to drop a bomb or launch a torpedo from a flying plane.
                    1. +2
                      27 February 2026 13: 59
                      Quote: Konnick
                      It turned out that it was possible to drop a bomb or launch a torpedo from a flying plane.

                      The range of an aerial torpedo is <6000 m (Japanese) / 2500 m for the British. They rarely fired from 1 km, more often from 500 m. A simple equation: the target's V vector and the torpedo bomber's V velocity. Preferably perpendicular.
                      The ship (considering the length of the hull) and the torpedo's arrival time (1000 m/ (V= 25-40 knots)) would have been practically unable to dodge. And even then, they missed more often.
                      Bombing a ship from above 2000 meters is a waste of time. They dived. The bombs were dropped from just 10 meters away from the target.
                      And are you comparing it to spitting at 20-30 km?
                      Besides the pitching, don't take into account:
                      - heterogeneity of the propellant charge, difference in the mass of the projectile
                      - latitude and longitude of the shot (g changes, the Coriolis force changes)
                      -wear of gears
                      The projectile's angle of attack and lift were hardly taken into account. I don't know if they took into account the projectile's velocity decrease over time. MK 1—possibly.
                      well and so on.
                      - the tables seemed to take into account the weather (pressure, humidity, temperature), "average for the hospital," but did not take into account local conditions on the route (snowflakes, raindrops, turbulence, etc.)
                      The increase in firing error with increasing range occurs nonlinearly, increasing dispersion exponentially. The error increases proportionally to the range, and the influence of external factors (e.g., environmental density, wind speed) increases proportionally to the square of the range.
                      An error in angular minutes along the gun axis at a range of 1000 meters will already give a dm, or meter, and at 20,000 m it will turn into a hundred meters.

                      For example, the Carl L. Norden, Incorporated aircraft sight (which ours could not create during WWII, and the Germans did not dare to spend Reichsmarks) cost 1,5 billion dollars, while the Manhattan Project cost 2 billion dollars.
                      A terrible jumble of machinery with components for the entire plane - and they still smeared it and never got close to
                      Theoretically, the sight allowed for the aircraft to fly at speeds over 500 km/h. heights 6 km to fall in a thirty-meter circle
      2. +2
        27 February 2026 06: 57
        During rolling. And what about pitching? Didn't it have any effect either?
        1. +2
          27 February 2026 13: 39
          Quote: Tlauicol
          During rolling. And what about pitching? Didn't it have any effect either?

          - Gyroscopic stabilizers: Gyroscopes determined the ship's tilt angles (roll and pitch) relative to the horizon.
          - Stabilized sights and scopes: Observation devices such as rangefinder posts were gyroscopically stabilized, allowing the target to be kept in sight despite the ship's motion.
          -Central Artillery Computing Post (CACP): The rolling data was fed into a mechanical computer (such as the MK 1 type systems in the US), which calculated the lead and adjusted the aiming angles.
          -Mechanical Link: Stabilized data was automatically transmitted to the gun turret aiming drives, eliminating errors caused by pitching when aiming the guns.
          =getting a shooting solution - the step just before opening fire=
  6. +2
    27 February 2026 05: 49
    Two power plants – nuclear and conventional – will help cope with the problem
    Why two power plants? They'd also carry extra fuel and take up extra space.
    1. 0
      27 February 2026 06: 39
      This "Orlan" nonsense has been a mystery to me for half a century. Clearly, if you install a nuclear power plant, then the rest is just emergency power supply and steam supply while moored.
      1. +2
        27 February 2026 06: 59
        I once read that this was done to allow entry into ports where ships with active reactors are prohibited, and also to be able to get somewhere at an acceptable speed in case of an accident. I don't know how true this is.
        1. 0
          1 March 2026 04: 12
          Gorshkov did not have much confidence in the reactors and demanded a conventional power plant for backup.
      2. +1
        27 February 2026 14: 57
        Quote: Victor Leningradets
        Definitely, if you install a nuclear power plant, then the rest is only emergency power supply and

        The permissible time for a power plant to be de-energized (based on core cooling conditions) is 5 minutes (calculation) to 15 minutes (tests), then Fukushima, even despite the negative temperature coefficient of reactivity with power regulation by changing the flow rate of the second circuit feedwater.

        It was discovered that the coolant returned to the reactor must be heated, as the "cold" flow hitting the "hot" pipe walls can cause thermal cycling failure of the collector inside the reactor. This has indeed happened during testing.
        During the cruiser's passage to Baltiysk in August 1980, there were repeated falls
        steam temperature by several tens of degrees with an increase in the hydraulic resistance of the steam generator


        The KN-3 naval nuclear steam generating plant was new, without the construction of a land-based installation, and had three times the capacity of the reactor installations installed at that time on second-generation submarines, and twice the capacity of icebreaker nuclear steam generating plants.
        Quote: ruslan
        for entering ports where ships with an active reactor are prohibited.

        1. It doesn't matter whether it's active or not. The reactor contains radiation sources, which are determined by regulatory legal acts and rules agreed upon with state safety regulatory authorities.
        2. Shutting down a reactor is a real pain, and getting it going again is even more of a problem. It takes weeks. You can't just go to port, shut it down, and then go back out and start it up.
        The reactor operates from cold start until complete sleep (or accident)/dismantling of the vehicle/essential reactor.

        Around the world it's something like this:
        Federal Law of November 21, 1995 N 170-FZ (as amended on April 21, 2025) "On the Use of Atomic Energy"
        Article 41. Entry into ports of the Russian Federation of ships and other floating craft with nuclear installations and radiation sources
        1. -2
          27 February 2026 17: 45
          But the guys on Nimitz didn't know!
          You know, they used pumps to warm up.
          1. 0
            27 February 2026 19: 56
            Quote: Victor Leningradets
            But the guys on Nimitz didn't know!

            -And the "men on the Nimitz" also have 2 KN-3s?
            And how many accidents with nuclear power systems on surface/submarine ships did the "men on the Nimitz" have? How many of them sank?

            Quote: Victor Leningradets
            You know, they used pumps to warm up.

            beer?
            1. 0
              27 February 2026 22: 02
              You're being ironic. Circuit heating is accomplished either by circulation pumps or by an external steam source. Pumps are expensive, but reliable, and eliminate thermal shock. Steam ejectors are faster and more economical, but the process is very strict. I received a promotion a long time ago for developing an automatic system for this process.
              1. +1
                28 February 2026 02: 27
                Quote: Victor Leningradets
                I received a promotion a long time ago for working on the automatic operation of this mode.

                (TM) Fyodor Petrovich: "So we're fans?! What time was that?!"
                wink
                Why was it necessary with this diarrhea?
                Quote: Victor Leningradets
                This "Orlan" nonsense has been a mystery to me for half a century.

                &
                Quote: Victor Leningradets
                But the guys on Nimitz didn't know!
                You know, they used pumps to warm up.

                start off?
                I already (sinfully) thought I had stepped into #FoggyDew or #Hexenmeister again.
                I'm a "theoretician", come on, come on, without further ado, enlighten me: where did Gorshkov screw up?
                I'm not being ironic. It's interesting, isn't it? Reading like Ryabov.
                It's always interesting to listen to someone who is involved.
  7. BAI
    0
    27 February 2026 06: 12
    No ship of smaller size could use artillery of such caliber.

    A gunboat can. But only one gun. The French once built a submarine with a similar gun.
  8. +3
    27 February 2026 06: 44
    So, some old-timer with a fevered brain, who can't seem to calm down to the end of his life, blurts out something about battleships, and everyone debates whether they're good or bad. We had N.S. Khrushchev, who was like that in military matters. Just missiles, and everything else should be cut and slashed. The Americans don't even know where to shove their Zumwalts, and now they're asking them to build battleships. Let them do it; the bigger the target, the easier it is to hit. We should at least update our navy and build Arleigh Burke-class ships to control international shipping lanes for our merchant marine. That's the first and most important task today.
    Or patrol to support our allies, like Cuba. The English Channel, Gibraltar, the Suez Canal, the Panama Canal, the Bosphorus. Why not check ships heading to the Black Sea while still in the Mediterranean for weapons supplies to Banderites? In the Indian Ocean, what is Australia supplying to Ukraine, what tanks and armored personnel carriers? That's where the red lines should be drawn, not in the Moscow region. soldier
    1. +3
      27 February 2026 06: 54
      Quote: V.
      Here comes an old man with an inflamed brain who will never calm down towards the end of his life and blurts out something about battleships and everyone is discussing whether it is good or bad.

      I take it you're talking about Donald, not the author? If the former, then he didn't just blurt it out; I understand the work at the design bureau is already in full swing. And the shareholders of certain companies are already wearing their palms out in anticipation of profits...
    2. +1
      27 February 2026 11: 51
      Quote: V.
      Why not check ships heading to the Black Sea while still in the Mediterranean for weapons supplies to Banderites? In the Indian Ocean, what is Australia supplying to Ukraine? What tanks and armored personnel carriers?

      Counter question: are you outraged when our tankers are inspected?
      And where did you get that ALL won't they be outraged by such a completely illegal search?
      You are, in fact, proposing to declare a war of privateering on the ENTIRE world....
      1. +1
        27 February 2026 12: 02
        Wouldn't that be reasonable? They're testing us, and we'll test them. Are we just going to stand there or lie there and beg, "Oh, man, don't hit me?" We checked, we have weapons, we either requisition them or drown them.
        Basically, it's a game by their rules.
        1. -2
          27 February 2026 12: 16
          Quote: V.
          Wouldn't that be reasonable? They're testing us, and we'll test them. Are we just going to stand there or lie there and beg, "Oh, man, don't hit me?" We checked, we have weapons, we either requisition them or drown them.
          Basically, it's a game by their rules.

          They requisitioned/sunk at least one ship with OUR oil?
          You're proposing a war of privateering to the entire world—how will you cover your ships? A fig with butter?
          The USSR had a much larger ocean fleet, but even then our ships were arrested.
          And now, in two months, the fleet will exhaust its resources and be put into repairs - and what will we do with trade then?
        2. +4
          27 February 2026 12: 29
          They test us and we will test them.

          They're not inspecting "us." They're inspecting tankers of unknown ownership, which change flags and nationalities while underway at sea (under international law, such a vessel is considered unowned).

          Pirates vs. smugglers, an absurd situation

          You should be well aware of how and why this situation occurs, and where to look for the reasons.
          1. +1
            27 February 2026 13: 50
            Take couriers, for example. We order something from a store, and they deliver it to our home or wherever we specify. Whose order is it? And we paid for it. And someone wants to take it, requisition it. Is that fair, is it decent? And what else can you call it except robbery? Violating navigation rules is one thing, but robbery is quite another. Is shipping oil to Cuba smuggling? Does paid oil, someone's property on any tanker, really constitute smuggling? And why does the American kingpin decide who sells what to us, a sovereign country? And what other sovereign countries buy from us.
            In principle, with the advancement of communications, it's possible to change both the flag and nationality at sea, not just in an office on shore. A message arrives via satellite, the documents are photocopied, and the flag is raised. Ask the state whose flag it is, whether it's your vessel or not, and then proceed according to the law. hi
            1. -1
              27 February 2026 14: 25
              Well, this is a crazy idea:
              For example, a Japanese poacher is fishing in our waters, border guards start pursuing him, and then a satellite message arrives, they print documents on a photocopier and raise the Russian flag, so it turns out they're no longer poachers or something.
              1. +2
                27 February 2026 14: 35
                Just don't exaggerate by comparing territorial waters with neutral ones.
                And with illegal fishing in our waters.
                1. 0
                  27 February 2026 16: 25
                  So you wrote it
                  *In principle, with the development of communications, it's possible to change both the flag and nationality at sea, not just in an office on shore. A message arrived via satellite, the documents were photocopied, and the flag was raised. Ask the state whose flag it is, whether it's your vessel or not, and then proceed according to the law.*

                  what's going on here are territorial and neutral waters

                  a ship must leave the port with a certain flag and not change it en route
                  1. -1
                    27 February 2026 17: 13
                    As they say in Odessa, do you want checkers or should you go?
  9. -1
    27 February 2026 07: 00
    Yes, this is drug-addicted nonsense, like the Leaky Colander or "invisible" planes with radar.
  10. +1
    27 February 2026 07: 09
    With such modest values, it becomes possible to cover a large portion of the side. And this doesn't require a Trump-class battleship—such protection can even be integrated into a frigate's design.

    A good example is the Dupuy de Lom, with its side protected by 100 mm of armor from the waterline to the upper deck.

    Without armored decks, nothing will work anyway. Even without an attack from above. The missile will hit the base of the superstructure, right above the deck, and the fragments or fragments will fall below.
    Fragments of the Exocet light warhead passed at least 10 meters through the frigate.
    1. 0
      27 February 2026 07: 19
      Without armored decks, nothing will work anyway.

      Above the deck of the French cruiser towered turrets with 160–190 mm guns and 100 mm thick walls.

      Just like two massive combat masts with armored command posts at the very top

      Take this metal off and roll it into armor plates and cover the upper deck and the problem is solved.
      1. +1
        27 February 2026 07: 30
        This will create a Dupuy de Lôme in the form of a pencil case. With a thin deck. Without superstructures.
        A bulk barge with a foil deck. A modern ship wouldn't have superstructures? Well, in principle, all the explosives could be stowed on the deck under a tarpaulin (that's practically what Dupuy did).
        1. 0
          27 February 2026 09: 43
          What other pencil case?

          We have an example of a ship of the type 6400, which had a fully protected side and about 100 tons of artillery barrels (without gun turrets, feed mechanisms, etc.) on the upper deck and above the upper deck, in turrets where the wall thickness was 100 mm.

          Furthermore, there were two heavy so-called combat masts, at the top of which were located the command and control tower and light guns (!!!)—such "masts." The cruiser DeLom certainly had a nuclear design.

          Remember, all of this was located ABOVE the upper deck. What was the "upper weight" of all the structures, and how did that affect stability? Ten tons at the top of the mast creates the same capsizing moment as 100 tons at the upper deck level.

          If all this metal were melted down and rolled into armor plates, it would create powerful deck protection at least 50 mm thick. And yes, there would still be reserves for lightweight, modern mast structures and antenna posts with phased arrays.

          The issue of deck protection is being resolved
          1. +1
            27 February 2026 12: 54
            A cruiser roughly the size and range of an Aurora, but with 100mm of broadsides!? And guns in turrets!?
            What's the secret? Cardboard bulkheads? No double bottom? No frames?
  11. +1
    27 February 2026 07: 44
    Armor is good, but it increases weight and reduces payload, and missiles strike from above. For a missile like Zircon, even without explosives, armor is practically nonexistent, and the energy is so high that it would at least leave a large hole in a battleship. And most importantly: the price of this miracle, plus the increased maintenance costs. If you want to ruin a country, give it a battleship.
    1. +2
      27 February 2026 09: 32
      and the missile attack comes from above

      All photographs of combat damage show hits to the side.

      If a missile flies at a high altitude, it is easy to shoot down.

      All Western anti-ship missiles fly at an altitude of several meters above the water.
      so that the battleship would at least get a big hole

      It will rain, the water will flow and he will drown.
      1. +2
        27 February 2026 11: 42
        It will rain, the water will flow and he will drown.

        I understand! We need to punch a second hole! Water will flow through one, and flow out through the second :))
  12. -2
    27 February 2026 07: 56
    Hmm! Well, well! Of course, I don't have time, but, briefly and fragmentarily:
    1. The displacement of a combat vessel is not only the amount of armament, but also seaworthiness (if we are talking about combat vessels, then the ability to use orie in certain weather conditions) and autonomy;
    2. If we talk about protection from underwater explosions, the presence of heavy armor only worsens the situation, creating heavy debris that has greater destructive power;
    3. At actual combat ranges of 700-800 m/s, the projectile's muzzle velocity remains 300-500 m/s. As a reminder, the Granit's cruising speed is Mach 2,5, and it doesn't decrease until the propellant burns out. The warhead's weight, according to various sources, ranges from 700 to 1000 kg. Making it armor-piercing, should the enemy encounter heavily armored ships, is no problem.
    1. +1
      27 February 2026 09: 29
      Let me remind you that the cruising speed of Granit is 2,5 Mach.

      Another fan of shooting Russian ships with Russian missiles
  13. 0
    27 February 2026 07: 58
    Quote: Tlauicol
    Fragments of the Exocet light warhead passed at least 10 meters through the frigate.

    The Exose warhead is about 200 kg, I'm too lazy to look for information, put an armor-piercing warhead and at a flight speed of about 300 m/s this pig will penetrate at least 150 mm of armor.
    1. +1
      27 February 2026 09: 51
      about 200 kg, too lazy to look for information, install an armor-piercing warhead and at a flight speed of about 300 m/s this pig will penetrate at least 150 mm of armor.

      What's the point if there are no explosives?

      A ship is not a tank; kinetic energy shells, cumulative shells, and APFSDS are useless against it.

      A tank's combat volume is 3 cubic meters. A ship's has tens of thousands of cubic meters, so the chance of hitting a critical component with a solid shell is negligible.
  14. 0
    27 February 2026 08: 16
    I'll allow myself to add a brief pause to this battleship conversation to lighten the mood. I hope this mood will continue throughout the day. :)
    https://ok.ru/video/10366983015149
    1. 0
      27 February 2026 08: 31
      Quote: Chack Wessel
      I'll allow myself to add a brief pause to this battleship conversation to lighten the mood. I hope this mood will continue throughout the day. :)
      https://ok.ru/video/10366983015149

      Well, the armor belt is about the same thing))
  15. 0
    27 February 2026 09: 03
    The lower speed of a diving aircraft (compared to a missile) was more than compensated for by the presence of a 500 kg motor in the front part, which was heavier and stronger than the warhead of any modern anti-ship missile.


    Are you sure? Have you ever wondered why anti-ship cruise missile variants consistently have a shorter range than standard cruise missiles? It might be because they're designed to hit heavily armored targets. And yes, our anti-ship missiles have supersonic speeds, which, combined with the strength of their warheads and their considerable weight, could easily penetrate even that kind of armor.
  16. +4
    27 February 2026 09: 40
    I read the title and was just about to joke, "Kaptsov's old dream has come true!" and then I got to the author :))...
    1. +1
      27 February 2026 10: 23
      Now some rockets fly noticeably faster than they used to.
      Main caliber shells of battleships, 1 km/sec no longer seems like an achievement, and 1.5 km/sec and more are on the way. If the anti-ship missile warhead is made similar to the sub-caliber projectile of a tank gun, that is, the BOLS separates from the missile at the final section, then what armor thickness does a ship need to stop it?
      1. +3
        27 February 2026 10: 38
        A tank is very confined, and a pierced side by an APCR shell, along with the fragments that break off from the armor, will inevitably hit something important inside the tank, especially the tank crew, leaving a relatively small hole in the armor. But on a ship, it's different. There's relatively much space there, and it's highly likely that a shell that penetrates the side will simply miss anything important, especially since ships typically have various secondary and auxiliary spaces alongside the side, with everything truly important hidden deep within. The result of such a hit will be only a small hole in the armor and a headache for the boatswain—how to write off the ropes stored in the storeroom where the shell punctured the hole.
        1. 0
          27 February 2026 11: 24
          Look at the diagrams of Orlan or Atlant - wherever you poke, you'll end up in a missile cellar.
          You can also look at how, for example, the NSM anti-ship missile makes a hole one and a half to two meters from the selected aiming point.
          1. 0
            27 February 2026 11: 36
            The discussion was about sub-caliber shells against a ship with thick armor.
            1. 0
              27 February 2026 12: 44
              Quote from solar
              The discussion was about sub-caliber shells against a ship with thick armor.

              A modern ship with thick armor will still have missile magazines. They'll be huge and have a target. Hitting and penetrating them won't be a problem.
        2. 0
          27 February 2026 12: 53
          The presence of an armor-piercing warhead on an anti-ship missile doesn't mean it doesn't contain explosives. Initially, the ship's side is penetrated by kinetic energy, followed by the detonation of the explosives—several hundred kilograms of hexogen or TNT. The damage will be quite substantial, comparable to a torpedo hit.
    2. +2
      27 February 2026 12: 23
      Quote from solar
      I read the title and was just about to joke, "Kaptsov's old dream has come true!" and then I got to the author :))...

      What's so funny - he waited 10 years for Trump...
      Or maybe Trump is HIS???!!!! belay belay
      1. +2
        27 February 2026 12: 34
        Perhaps Trump came across secret CIA translations of Kaptsov's old articles on VO? That would explain a lot. :)
  17. 0
    27 February 2026 10: 38
    The cost of a missile ship's ammunition can be comparable to the cost of the ship itself.

    A cheap Hryullet-Packard inkjet printer and a couple of its dead cartridges.
  18. +2
    27 February 2026 10: 43
    Oleg has been really making me happy lately)
    Looks like spring is approaching - I've woken up from hibernation)))
  19. 0
    27 February 2026 10: 43
    Quote: Santa Fe
    Plus reinforced sheathing along the entire length at the waterline

    It's a shearstrake, like on any ship. That's where the hull load peaks.

    We point our finger at the screen, Google opens and we read:
    Sheerstrake (from the English sheerstrake) is the uppermost, reinforced belt of the outer plating of the side of a ship, directly adjacent to the main (upper) deck.
  20. -4
    27 February 2026 10: 44
    The author discusses something that he doesn’t understand even at the school physics level, let alone the topic of shipbuilding.
    A hit by a Granit anti-ship missile on any existing battleship, even through 400mm of armor, will most likely result in the immediate and complete incapacitation of the battleship and its destruction within a matter of seconds.
  21. 0
    27 February 2026 10: 45
    Quote: Santa Fe
    What's the point if there are no explosives?

    So it will be in the projectile, but not in the missile's warhead! This is some kind of discrimination, you know.
    1. +1
      27 February 2026 11: 02
      It will be in the projectile, but not in the missile warhead!

      The explosive content of the armor-piercing warhead will be an order of magnitude lower than in the existing version of the Exocet warhead.

      She will be able to penetrate the side, but she will not be able to do anything to the ship.
      1. +1
        27 February 2026 12: 59
        The Exocet is simply a small and ridiculous French missile. Compare the weight of the old Soviet Moskit (a short-range anti-ship missile) to this French bummer, incapable of even penetrating the side of a tanker (as the Iraqis clearly discovered when they fired on Iranian ships during the conflict).
        The explosive content of anti-ship cruise missiles is comparable to that of conventional cruise missiles, which are the basis for the development of anti-ship variants. Savings are achieved by reducing the fuel weight of such cruise missiles, resulting in significantly shorter ranges, sometimes several times shorter.
  22. +1
    27 February 2026 10: 55
    Overall, it appears that heavy missile and artillery ships will soon return to the navies of leading countries. These won't be Iowa-class ships, of course. But they will definitely be large vessels with a displacement of around 20-30 kilotons. Armor will return, in the form of an armor belt and internal armored bulkheads. It's also possible that a citadel, an enclosed internal section of the ship made of thick armor that houses most of the crew during combat missions, will be introduced, ensuring that even if hit by several anti-ship missiles, the crew remains unharmed and can subsequently evacuate.
    The second thing that will return is artillery. The author of the article pointed out an important problem that I, for one, hadn't even considered. Specifically, modern missiles have become too expensive and their production rates too low to replenish ships' ammunition in a timely manner. As a result, the prospect of a conflict is emerging in which the intensity of battles will directly depend on which side has succeeded in accumulating missiles and which deployed them more effectively. But missiles could quickly run out. And the need for combat service will remain. And here we can consider the return of larger-caliber artillery (150-200 mm). Why this caliber, and not the 300-400 mm giants of WWII!
    1) The 150 caliber is already widespread and used in the ground army
    2) The 200 caliber, although almost no longer widespread, is easier and cheaper to restore than the monstrous 380-460 mm.
    3) 150-200mm is a compact enough caliber to be produced in large quantities, inexpensively, and with a large ammunition supply on board.
    4) Moreover, tactical nuclear weapons can already be produced in this caliber. Still, the risk and possibility of a third world war with the full or limited use of nuclear weapons remains.
    5) This caliber already has mass-produced and relatively inexpensive fuse tips capable of correcting the projectile's trajectory, thereby turning blanks into high-precision projectiles.
    6) This caliber can produce rockets with a firing range of 60+ km. Combined with optimal elevation angles and a long barrel (perhaps even around 52-54 calibers), a firing range of 100-120 km can be achieved.

    As a result, the number of vertical launch cells on the next generation of ships will be slightly reduced, but 1 or 2 turrets with 1 or 2 150-200 mm caliber guns will appear.
    1. +1
      27 February 2026 12: 27
      Quote: Mustachioed Kok
      This caliber can be used to create rockets with a firing range of 60+ km.

      Shooting at such distances was already possible in 1914.
    2. VlK
      -1
      27 February 2026 13: 02
      then with railguns, where there is no recoil, no recoil devices, no shooting of barrels
      1. 0
        27 February 2026 16: 40
        By the way, the barrels will be worn out. The aligners will need to be replaced there too. But the lack of recoil is easily offset by the weight of the gun itself and the practical rate of fire.
    3. 0
      27 February 2026 13: 02
      Well, maybe for wars with the Papuans. The appropriate response is the return of tactical nuclear weapons to our Navy. Tsirkon or Granit missiles with 3-5 kt warheads won't leave these battleship-like surface ships any chance. A direct hit from any mega-battleship will leave only ripples in the water.
  23. 0
    27 February 2026 11: 53
    Trump's battleships...
    Trump is a buffoon, he needs a show, hence his fantasy of a big, beautiful ship, but there is a practical nuance to all this that has nothing to do with Trump....
    Firstly, modern ships have a paltry (and very expensive) ammunition supply compared to WWII ships. Here, range has replaced destructive potential. As a result, modern ships are capable of only a single attack, after which they are mere tin cans at sea. Unlike WWII ships, which could engage in repeated battles, albeit at shorter ranges, each time inflicting the same damage as modern ships in a single attack. This contradiction is currently pushing up the number of launcher cells on modern ships and fueling the idea of ​​floating missile arsenals. But all this missile armament is terribly expensive, and in a protracted war, as is the case now, it is ineffective. Because to seriously damage the enemy, many hits are needed in a unit of time, far more than the enemy can produce. This is why, for example, the front in Ukraine is being advanced by shells and bombs, while missiles merely assist them, slightly hindering the enemy's production. That is, in relation to the navy, a balance is needed between cheap weapons (artillery) and expensive ones (missiles), even in naval battles, not to mention strikes on land.
    Secondly, the ships' structural protection (not just armor) was abandoned back then due to the possibility of using missiles with tactical nuclear warheads, against which it is useless. However, many years have passed since the US and USSR had insufficient strategic nuclear warheads to guarantee each other's destruction. Now, the use of tactical nuclear warheads is a pretext for a strategic response, guaranteeing the destruction of the enemy state. Therefore, the use of missiles with tactical nuclear warheads is not envisaged; there is a reason to reintroduce structural protection and, thereby, sharply reduce the potential damage from missile hits.
    These are the nuances that emerge from an analysis of modern warfare.
    1. +1
      27 February 2026 12: 07
      The constructive protection (not just the armor) was then removed from the ships due to the possibility of using missiles with a tactical nuclear charge, against which it is useless

      I wonder how they managed to figure this out.

      All nuclear tests (Bikini, Novaya Zemlya) showed the low effectiveness of tactical nuclear weapons against ships, whether with or without armor.
      1. +1
        27 February 2026 13: 06
        Quote: Santa Fe
        All nuclear tests (Bikini, Novaya Zemlya) showed the low effectiveness of tactical nuclear weapons against ships, whether with or without armor.


        Yeah, if the epicenter was at least half a mile away. A direct hit would sink any ship if the TNT equivalent was at least a couple of tons. Torpedoes, which sometimes sank even large ships, contained less explosives.
      2. 0
        27 February 2026 15: 51
        I wonder how they managed to figure this out.
        Simple analysis.
        With the advent of nuclear weapons, armored ships disappeared, or rather, were quickly decommissioned. Missiles themselves pose even less of a threat to a battleship than battleship-caliber shells, meaning they weren't the missiles themselves. Therefore, the threat came from the nuclear warhead.
        All nuclear tests...
        I don't have any data on such tests, but even now our military is claiming on TV that the explosion of a Poseidon in the middle of an aircraft carrier formation would sink the entire formation. Why would they lie? They'd be laughed at.
        From all this, I conclude that a 10-kilogram nuclear warhead hitting a battleship would dismantle it for parts, and therefore, maintaining such a ship under such a threat makes no sense. A simple analysis.
        1. 0
          28 February 2026 01: 53
          A simple analysis gives a different picture.

          Nuclear weapons appeared in 1945, and large ships with artillery continued to be built and were used en masse until the early 1980s.

          After a 15-year hiatus due to wartime naval overcapacity, the United States only resumed laying down new types of ships in the late 1950s. It turned out that a guided-missile cruiser would be the size of a destroyer. At such a scale, talking about armor protection was simply inappropriate. Soviet designers came to roughly the same conclusions.
          --------
          Regarding the second topic

          Anti-ship nuclear weapons have proven themselves to be a "paper tiger." They only succeed with a direct hit.

          During the first Bikini test, out of 129 ships, only five, located at ground zero, were sunk. Some more ships sank later, due to the simple lack of crews and any struggle for survivability. Even the smallest leak proved fatal.

          Horror stories about "induced radiation" that killed all life and made ships uninhabitable for many months are refuted by photographs from the scene.

          The illustration shows the target cruiser Pensacola, located 800 meters from the epicenter. Researchers in "high-protection suits" speak of the dire radiation hazard. The photo was taken a couple of days after the explosion.

          It is possible that this subsequently affected their health, but it could not immediately affect the crew's combat readiness.
          1. 0
            2 March 2026 14: 02
            Quote: Santa Fe
            Large ships with artillery continued to be built and used en masse until the early 1980s.

            The problem turned out to be different. A ship designed for artillery combat needed to be adequately protected, which is very expensive and time-consuming, and also complicates modernization. It can be destroyed just as quickly, but with more concentrated firepower. So why bother? It's easier to build an unprotected ship, especially since they were planning to fight only against Papuans and submarines, not against surface ships. A prime example of this approach is the series of specialized anti-submarine destroyers, which are practically unsuitable for combat against the fleet, both in terms of armament and survivability.
          2. 0
            7 March 2026 09: 55
            Nuclear weapons appeared in 1945....
            It's just that nuclear warheads that could be placed in a tactical missile appeared significantly later than strategic ones, and shipbuilding programs are always designed for a decade, which is why "large ships with artillery continued to be built" (or rather, completed) for some time, even though it was already clear that they would be "massively used" in auxiliary roles.
            Here it is
            It turned out that the missile cruiser would be the size of a destroyer. At such a scale, it's simply inappropriate. Soviet designers came to roughly the same conclusions.
            - complete nonsense. When it became clear that a nuclear missile hit would dismantle any armored ship, talking about armor protection became pointless. Removing it created an excessive displacement reserve, which simply could not be filled with new weapons within the existing length-to-width dimensions. As a result, the missile ships lost draft but remained the same size.
            This is the picture that the analysis gives.
            Generally speaking, leaving aside nuclear weapons, a missile battle or artillery engagement involves firing munitions at an enemy with varying kill probabilities—they're essentially the same thing. And the outcome of such a battle depends not only on the kill probability (i.e., the number of munitions fired and the probability of their impact), but also on the resistance of the target. This is why the number of launch cells in ships currently under construction is increasing, and the Chinese are also increasing their displacement.
            1. 0
              7 March 2026 10: 26
              As a result, the missile ships were lost in the draft

              The draft of missile ships has increased belay

              The destroyer Zumwalt has more draft than the heavy cruiser Baltimore, of the same displacement

              The destroyer Arleigh Burke has a greater draft than the cruise missile cruiser Atlanta, of the same displacement.

              The heavy aircraft carrier Pyotr Velikiy has a greater draft than the battleship Tirpitz!

              How do you explain this? It doesn't match your conclusions.
              1. 0
                9 March 2026 10: 03
                How do you explain this?
                If a ship is narrower than its counterpart at the same length, then with the same displacement, its draft will be greater. Modern ships have a larger length-to-beam ratio. On the one hand, this reduces hydrodynamic drag, meaning fuel savings. On the other hand, they have lower requirements for structural protection, which takes up significant space along the sides, which increases the ship's beam (or, conversely, reduces its usable internal volume).
  24. 0
    27 February 2026 12: 11
    Quote: Santa Fe
    It will be in the projectile, but not in the missile warhead!

    The explosive content of the armor-piercing warhead will be an order of magnitude lower than in the existing version of the Exocet warhead.

    She will be able to penetrate the side, but she will not be able to do anything to the ship.

    How did they sink steamships with shells before?
    By the way, the Exose warhead is semi-armor-piercing.
    1. +1
      27 February 2026 12: 21
      How did they sink steamships with shells before?

      A direct hit to the magazine (an extremely rare event in a battle between large ships)

      If this did not happen, then the artillery massacre turned into torpedo attacks on destroyers and death from hits to the underwater part
      By the way, the Exose warhead is semi-armor-piercing.

      These are just beautiful, meaningless words, at best a delay of the fuse

      165 kg warhead containing 56 kg of explosives
      The filling coefficient is 30%, this thin-walled shell will not penetrate anything.
  25. +1
    27 February 2026 12: 40
    Gigantic proportions made sense when they were commensurate with tasks and capabilities. Today, they've become mere symbols. But true meaning lies in learning from the lessons of the past.

    Let the marine engineers and designers hear you
  26. -1
    27 February 2026 12: 51
    Quote: Santa Fe
    How did they sink steamships with shells before?

    A direct hit to the magazine (an extremely rare event in a battle between large ships)

    If this did not happen, then the artillery massacre turned into torpedo attacks on destroyers and death from hits to the underwater part
    By the way, the Exose warhead is semi-armor-piercing.

    These are just beautiful, meaningless words, at best a delay of the fuse

    165 kg warhead containing 56 kg of explosives
    The filling coefficient is 30%, this thin-walled shell will not penetrate anything.

    Quote: Santa Fe
    How did they sink steamships with shells before?

    A direct hit to the magazine (an extremely rare event in a battle between large ships)

    A missile's seeker can significantly increase this probability. See NSM firings. It'll hit where it's supposed to, especially a missile cellar.
  27. +2
    27 February 2026 13: 27
    What died in the forest? Kaptsov versus battleships! That's just fantastic. ;-)
  28. -1
    27 February 2026 18: 43
    And hypersonic cruise missiles? Their speed is much greater than that of battleship shells at a range of 30-40 km (at that range, the speed of shells dropped to 400-500 meters per second).

    And no one is stopping them from making the cruise missile's warhead super-strong. Its weight—about 400 kilograms—at a speed of about Mach 5 would destroy any destroyer, even without explosives. And if you put about 30 kilograms of HMX inside it, you could fatally damage even an aircraft carrier.
    And if you consider that there are always several dozen refueled aircraft on the deck of an aircraft carrier, then maybe there is no need to penetrate the deck, you can simply drop submunitions from the cruise missile onto it.

    In the 80 years since WWII, the legend has grown that an aircraft carrier is an unsinkable target. But as for me, all the Reagans and Roosevelts are future stars of Chinese heroes—and who knows, maybe even Russian ones.
    1. 0
      27 February 2026 22: 17
      The weight of such a warhead would a priori be insufficient to damage a battleship. Unless, of course, it's an ICBM warhead. Even 8 tons are possible there.
  29. +1
    27 February 2026 19: 44
    The only explanation is the need for a powerful power plant, possibly several nuclear reactors, with the expectation of future developments such as electromagnetic anti-drone cannons, railguns (the Japanese seem to have developed a successful project), laser systems. Judging by the timeframe, the active service of these ships is calculated for 2045-2060, what will be there is still unknown.
  30. 0
    27 February 2026 22: 10
    The author was replaced, but Skomorokhov's style and presentation remained. Everything else is just musings and musings, but R&D sees things differently: where will this technological idea lead us?
  31. 0
    27 February 2026 22: 15
    The expectation is that powerful missiles and aircraft will be shot down by air defense and missile defense systems, while high-speed, small missiles and drones will be unable to damage the armored giant. Battleships are good against drones and small missiles, but... They're expensive and defenseless against nuclear weapons. Trump, while promoting the battleship idea, is confident that nuclear weapons will never be used against them. Without this, the project shouldn't even begin.
    .
    And yes. Such battleships will still have to be armed with missiles.
  32. 0
    28 February 2026 01: 33
    I apologize for butting in where it's none of my business, but... The American Navy currently controls almost the entire world's oceans, and if anyone tries to protect their coastline, they'll only do so until American reinforcements arrive. And the American Navy isn't omnipotent in the polar regions. Russia (relatively) controls the Arctic. Our icebreakers can escort a convoy of warships to any point in the Arctic. How do we respond to this? By creating ice-class warships—marauders. Such a ship can independently reach any production platform and declare it American territory. These weapons will be very helpful in "negotiations" with the oil industry. And when Russia sends a convoy, the marauder has two options: either destroy the entire convoy with a single strike on the icebreaker, or flee through the ice, since our ships won't be able to pursue it independently. Imagine the coordinated actions of three ships of this class, which, thanks to their maneuverability and speed in the ice, would gain an advantage over a group of conventional ships ten times stronger. And the fact that at the construction stage they can be passed off as "battleships 2.0" - remember the origin of the tanks' name.
  33. 0
    28 February 2026 22: 57
    Trump's Battleships: Back to the Future
    The topic of battleships didn't appear out of nowhere in American discussions and hotheaded minds. First, the computer game "Battleship" was created, and in it, battleships were a backup option for the Americans to deploy in the final stages of battle. But then several Hollywood patriotic blockbusters were made based on "Battleship," the most famous of which is "Pacific Rim," which later spawned "Pacific Rim 2" and, apparently, even "Pacific Rim 3." All of these films were filmed in a fantasy setting, with monsters or aliens from outer space attacking the planet, and fearless Americans stealing an ancient battleship or dreadnought from a military museum and delivering a decisive salvo of ancient guns at the enemy. Similar ideas were used to create the film "Battleship" (2012), featuring aliens and a dreadnought. All these similar games and films based on these games were concocted for armchair conquerors of alien monsters, and to discuss the topic of ancient dreadnoughts in today's reality requires a complete loss of both hemispheres of the brain.
  34. 0
    2 March 2026 05: 36
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Only the monitor is a combat ship.

    River

    Monitors combined thick armor and large-caliber artillery with poor seaworthiness, low buoyancy, and a short range, making them very good in combat and very poor at sailing.
    1. 0
      Today, 16: 20
      Quote: AndreyM
      River

      Эребус
  35. 0
    2 March 2026 05: 49
    Quote: sofa
    The Arctic is (relatively) controlled by the Russian Federation. Our icebreakers can escort a convoy of warships to any point in the Arctic. How do we respond to this? By creating ice-class warships—marauders.

    And in this, too, Russia has succeeded better than the United States. Meet the Project 23550 Arktika patrol ship—effectively an armed icebreaker (1x76mm, 2x30mm, 4x12.7mm, 8xKalibr cruise missiles or Uran anti-ship missiles, 8xshort-range air defense systems, and a helicopter). And most importantly, the lead ship, the Ivan Papanin, is already in service with the Navy, two serial ships are undergoing trials, and another is under construction.
  36. 0
    2 March 2026 13: 47
    I think Trump meant protection similar to aircraft carriers -
    In essence, the ship has two layers - outer and inner, where the main filling is inside
    I also think that some kind of protected citadel is planned, where arsenals will be located.
    Such a ship will be able to withstand a dozen hits from conventional anti-ship missiles not of the Granite level.
    Especially if it has the traditionally high level of survivability systems for the US
  37. 0
    2 March 2026 21: 23
    The author seems to forget that anti-ship missiles can have penetrating warheads. How many millimeters of armor can they penetrate if the missile is traveling at 3000-5000 km/h? I'm talking about hypersonic speeds, yes. I think even an armored ship would be penetrated from deck to hull.
    1. 0
      3 March 2026 03: 20
      What if the missile flies at 3000-5000 km/h? I'm talking about hypersonic speeds, right?

      Such PKRs do not exist.
      I think that even a ship protected by armor would be penetrated from deck to bottom.

      There will be a hole whose dimensions are insignificant compared to the size of the ship.

      It's more effective to hit the body with a crowbar.

      Ships, due to their colossal size, must be burned and blown up. This requires a lot of explosives. The speed of the ammunition itself plays no role after it hits the target. Speed ​​is needed to penetrate air defenses, but then it becomes a problem for the ammunition itself.
      1. 0
        3 March 2026 21: 25
        Zircon flies at the final stage of its trajectory at a speed of over 3000 km/h. As for the size of the hole, the detonation occurs inside the ship.
        1. 0
          4 March 2026 10: 28
          1. Why are you planning to fire Russian missiles at a Russian ship? Give examples of Western anti-ship missiles. How many Harpoons (and similar missiles) have been produced, and what is the possible number of launchers? Compare this with the Oniks launchers. Who is the real threat?

          2. There are no rockets capable of reaching speeds greater than Mach 3 during their atmospheric cruise phase.

          The name Zircon belongs to a product whose performance characteristics don't match the stated specifications (it's either an Onyx anti-ship missile or a ballistic missile, such as a ground-attack surface-to-air missile). No 5M+ missiles with a ramjet propulsion system exist in the world.

          The hypersonic and 3000-5000 km/h argument itself is laughable. Even if such missiles ever appear, the chances of encountering them are negligible compared to thousands of light anti-ship missiles, drones, and other simple threats.

          Just like arguing the need for bulletproof vests, citing the penetrating power of tank shells, which will certainly penetrate any bulletproof vest.
          1. 0
            5 March 2026 00: 03
            The name Zircon belongs to a product whose characteristics do not correspond to those stated

            Did you hold a candle? Or secret documents?

            Why are you planning to shoot Russian missiles at a Russian ship?
            Where did I say that?

            There are no rockets capable of reaching speeds greater than Mach 3 during their atmospheric cruise phase.

            For now it's your words against mine, nothing more.
            1. 0
              5 March 2026 00: 19
              Did you hold a candle?

              I just compared the facts and figures.
              I've been following this topic for a long time.

              You can look at analogs for which information is open
              Scramjet "Cold", American X-51 and X-43
              The characteristics, dimensions, and weight of their accelerators, and the results they've achieved—they're simply CRAZY.

              On the other hand, it was announced that the hypersonic Zircon would be deployed in standard ship launch cells. Considering the results of actual hypersonic aircraft designs, even the slowest ones like the Kh-51, they require a near-space-scale booster. The Kh-43 used a real Pegasus launch vehicle, weighing 19 tons.

              There can be no talk of any placement in the UVP

              The whole story with Zircon consists of such contradictions
              1. 0
                7 March 2026 21: 30
                So, they were more or less right about the Avantgarde, and about the Burevestnik, too, but they lied about the Zircon, and not just lied, but significantly? Or did they lie about everything?
                1. 0
                  8 March 2026 02: 13
                  Or did they lie everywhere?

                  Vanguard, maneuvering warhead = INS becomes useless. It is necessary to determine the exact position from a height of 100+ km. We know what such radars and optics look like from military and commercial satellites that provide high-resolution images. Putting something like that into a warhead is impossible. plasma, that's a separate conversation

                  Radar-based correction during final approach? We know of real-world examples, like the Pershing II. The downside of this method? It would cause the warhead to slow significantly during final approach in the atmosphere (below Mach 3), resulting in a high risk of being shot down.

                  Together, 8-10 separating units flying at Mach 20, covered by 100-500 false reflectors, in the case of the Avangard, will result in a single slow monster

                  There's no military merit to such an "improvement." The developers understand this, too, so it's unlikely that Avangard has gone beyond the visuals.
                  1. 0
                    8 March 2026 08: 56
                    Radar-based correction during final approach? We know of real-world examples, like the Pershing II. The downside of this method? It would cause the warhead to slow significantly during final approach in the atmosphere (below Mach 3), resulting in a high risk of being shot down.

                    At a speed of 3m there is no plasma yet, so why the speed would need to be reduced to less than 3m is unclear.
                    1. 0
                      8 March 2026 11: 06
                      At a speed of 3m there is no plasma yet, so why the speed would need to be reduced to less than 3m is unclear.

                      Air resistance, active maneuvering in a dense atmosphere

                      A bandura with rudders and a radar in the nose is not a warhead of a conventional ICBM, but a cone with a small angle of attack, wrapped in layers of heat protection.
                      1. 0
                        8 March 2026 11: 13
                        There's information that the MiG-31BM can reach a speed of 3100 km/h at high altitude. That's 2.8 meters. It's odd, as it seems closer to a winged monster than a mobile missile. But even if we take the 3000 km/h claimed for a standard MiG-31, it's not much slower. And the aircraft certainly can't be compared to a glider, which is what the Avangard is.

                        By the way
                        Vanguard, maneuvering warhead = INS becomes useless.

                        Why would it? It works exactly the same during maneuvering as it does on a ballistic trajectory. The essence of an inertial navigation system is that it measures acceleration and uses it to calculate position, and it works the same way during maneuvering as it does during a ballistic trajectory. But it also accumulates error in both cases.
                      2. 0
                        8 March 2026 21: 04
                        And an airplane certainly cannot be compared to a glider, which is the avant-garde.

                        Then why are you bringing the MiG-31?

                        Mig, due to the thrust of the engines of 30 tons, barely reaches 3M, so great is the resistance

                        The glider will also expend all its energy maneuvering in the atmosphere. Slow target

                        2. Another issue is related to braking temperatures: flying above 3 Mach requires significant thermal protection (photo). Radar, on the other hand, requires a lightweight, radio-transparent fairing.
                        Why?

                        Accumulation of errors during maneuvers

                        Warheads are aimed and deployed to targets while still in orbit, after which it's pure ballistics. The warheads have neither conventional nor gas rudders.
                      3. 0
                        9 March 2026 21: 29
                        Mig, due to the thrust of the engines of 30 tons, barely reaches 3M, so great is the resistance

                        To show that 3m and even 4m aren't some kind of exorbitant speed. And there's no plasma at such speeds. Maneuvering is also possible. In other words, there are no problems at speeds up to 4-5m.

                        Warheads are aimed and deployed to targets while still in orbit, after which it's pure ballistics. The warheads have neither conventional nor gas rudders.

                        What does this have to do with anything? We were talking about the inertial navigation system. You said that for some reason it stops working during maneuvering. I told you that it works perfectly well during maneuvering, and its only drawback is error accumulation. But this happens in any case, no matter what flight mode the carrier is in. This means that a missile maneuvering at hypersonic speeds can maneuver quite easily, relying on data from the inertial guidance system, and then, finally, having reduced its speed in the dense layers of the atmosphere to Mach 4 - 5, check against GLONASS coordinates via satellite channels to obtain more precise coordinates.
                      4. 0
                        11 March 2026 06: 04
                        Иными словами, никаких проблем на скоростях до 4 - 5м нет.

                        Есть проблема сохранить такую скорость маневрируя в плотной атмосфере

                        Собственных двигателей у глайдера нет

                        Все что у него есть - запас энергии, который быстро расходуется на разогрев и торможение
                        Вы сказали что она почему-то перестаёт работать при маневрировании. Я вам сказал, что она прекрасно работает при маневрировании и единственный её минус это накопление ошибки.

                        Т.е. снижение точности до неприемлемых значений

                        Обязательно нужна радарная система корррекции, подобная RADAG на Першинг-2
                        снизив скорость в плотных слоях атмосферы до 4 - 5М,

                        Тогда в чем практический и военный смысл "авангарда", какие преимущества достигунты - в сравнении с существующими МБР

                        Одиночная цель на 4-5М

                        Или 8-10 отдельных боеголовок на скорости 20М, под прикрытием облака ложных целей
                      5. 0
                        12 March 2026 20: 54
                        Тогда в чем практический и военный смысл "авангарда", какие преимущества достигунты - в сравнении с существующими МБР

                        В возможности атаковать с непредсказуемых направлений, в том числе с тех, где ПРО нет. Вы же знаете, что США защищены ПРО только с одной стороны - с той, откуда полетят обычные баллистические ракеты. Кроме того, попасть по маневрирующей на скорости 4 - 5М боеголовке куда сложнее, чем пульнуть в точку упреждения, где баллистическая боеголовка 100% будет через минуту.
                      6. 0
                        Yesterday, 01: 46
                        атаковать с непредсказуемых направлений, в том числе с тех, где ПРО нет. Вы же знаете, что США защищены ПРО только с одной стороны - с той

                        А причем тут глайдер

                        Для этого были созданы МБР делающие виток вокруг Земли, типа советской Р-36орб (орбитальная)
                        Кроме того, попасть по маневрирующей на скорости 4 - 5М боеголовке куда сложнее

                        Для такой цели уже начинают представлять угрозу существующие средств ПВО

                        Посмотрите например ттх THAAD

                        С другой стороны, не существует средств способных отразить удар 8-10 боеголовок МБР летящих на 20М.

                        Идея Авангарда гнилая в своей основе. Она не предлагает какой-либо выгоды и только ухудшает боевые качества МБР
                  2. 0
                    8 March 2026 09: 05
                    Self-propelled carriages were also previously considered impossible and a violation of the laws of physics. So everything you write is simply speculation. Meanwhile, there are ways to make it so that radar, given certain plasma characteristics, can see through it. Theoretically, a radio wave can pass through plasma if the frequency of the plasma oscillations is lower than the frequency of the radio wave.
          2. 0
            5 March 2026 00: 11
            compared to thousands of light anti-aircraft missiles, drones and other simple threats

            Regarding this, even the most armored ship can easily be rendered ineffective by a single radar hit. What's the point of building an expensive hulk that will be rendered ineffective by a $20000 drone hit? It's far more efficient to build 10 cheap ships for the same price. If only because they'd have 10 radars instead of just one.
            1. 0
              5 March 2026 00: 27
              this - any ship, even the most armored one, can easily be rendered incapable of combat by one radar hit.

              As soon as the radar is picked up, it will immediately burn and sink, taking to the bottom the crew and unspent ammunition worth more than the ship itself.

              Excellent choice, Ballnatrae

              By the way, did you know that Kalibrs don't require radar to launch? And for many modern SAMs like the SM-6, external target designation is sufficient.
              It would be much more efficient to make 10 cheap ships for the same amount of money.

              How can one Gorshkov frigate be turned into 10?
              1. 0
                7 March 2026 21: 23
                As soon as the radar is picked up, it will immediately burn and sink, taking to the bottom the crew and unspent ammunition worth more than the ship itself.

                Once again, a ship can easily lose combat capability while remaining relatively intact.

                By the way, did you know that Kalibrs don't require radar to launch? And for many modern SAMs like the SM-6, external target designation is sufficient.

                I am aware that:
                1) We have only one satellite with an active radar in our Liana. And four or five passive reconnaissance satellites, which are fundamentally incapable of providing target designation because they can't illuminate targets. And a single satellite with an active radar is physically incapable of providing target designation anywhere on the globe at any time.
                2) I'm aware that a ship has many different systems, and a ship with, for example, a destroyed superstructure won't be able to function properly. And no one will armor the superstructure. So, a couple of drones with 100 kg warheads would be enough to destroy it.

                How can one Gorshkov frigate be turned into 10?

                The Project 22350 frigate is 135 meters long and 8 meters high, so let's say it will be armored to a height of 6 meters and a length of 80 meters. The armor thickness is 50 mm. This gives us 24 cubic meters of armor steel on each side. The deck also needs to be armored, otherwise what's the point? The Project 22350 ship's width is 16,4 meters, so let's also make the deck thickness 50 mm. We'll armor it to the same length as the side. The ship's width isn't constant, so let's estimate the average width in the armored area by eye, at 10 meters. This means we need 10 * 80 * 0.05 = 40 cubic meters of deck armor. A total of 88 cubic meters of steel are needed for the armor. One cubic meter of steel weighs 7900 kg. 88 * 7900 = 695200 kg. So, thin armor increases the ship's weight by 695 tons, assuming its dimensions remain the same, even though its initial displacement is only 5400 tons. To prevent it from sinking under the weight of the armor above the waterline, its displacement will need to be increased by more than 695 tons, since the increase in displacement also increases its linear dimensions, meaning more armor will be needed than before. Furthermore, since the ship's displacement will increase, more powerful engines will need to be installed, which will be heavier than before, and more fuel will need to be carried to them, which further increases the displacement. How much? I don't know, but let's assume 500 tons. Overall, adding 50mm of thin armor over 60% of the ship's length increases the displacement by about 1300-1500 tons, or 27% of the initial displacement. The price of such a ship would increase not by 27%, but by a factor of two. However, it would be just as easily disabled by destroying the superstructure as the current 22350. It would also carry the same number of missiles, as the extra space would be consumed by the larger propulsion system and its fuel supply.
                1. 0
                  8 March 2026 02: 20
                  The length of the frigate of project 22350 is 135 meters, the height of the side is 8 meters, let it be armored to 6 meters in height

                  A protected ship will not have such a high side and superstructure

                  The whole architecture will change
                  We have only one satellite with an active radar in the liana

                  Modern SAMs with active homing heads are guided by data from other ships and AWACS aircraft.

                  Otherwise, how would they shoot at planes over the horizon?

                  Kalibr and Tamahawk are flying to known coordinates. The communications network is compact and secure, and data can be retrieved from any source.
                  1. 0
                    8 March 2026 09: 08
                    A protected ship will not have such a high side and superstructure

                    The whole architecture will change


                    Why would I? It still needs vertical missile silos.

                    Modern SAMs with active homing heads are guided by data from other ships and AWACS aircraft.

                    Destroying the radar isn't the only thing that renders a ship useless. Destroying the conning tower, for example, will have the same effect.
                    But destroying the radar will also make the ship an easy target. It won't be able to see whether missiles are heading its way, or whether enemy air groups have taken off to sink it. And if the radar is destroyed, it's likely that the receiving antennas are also destroyed, meaning it won't be able to receive data from other radars. It will be blind, deaf, and dumb.

                    A modern major war will be won not by the one who builds the most advanced weapon, but by the one who can establish production of simple, cheap, easy-to-repair, and sufficiently effective weapons in the largest possible quantities.
                    1. 0
                      8 March 2026 22: 43
                      It still needs to have vertical missile silos fitted.

                      What is the connection between high surface side - and vertical launchers
                      and whoever can set up production of something simple, cheap, and easy to repair

                      So you are now describing a protected frigate (destroyer)

                      Which does not burn from the first Harpoon it encounters and does not carry the crew and ammunition to the bottom, i.e. is repairable
                      1. 0
                        9 March 2026 21: 23
                        What is the connection between high freeboard and vertical launchers?

                        The length of the rocket is 8 meters, should I continue?

                        Which does not burn from the first Harpoon it encounters and does not carry the crew and ammunition to the bottom, i.e. is repairable

                        A modern warship, even without armor, can easily survive one or even two anti-ship missile hits and return to base for repairs. An armored ship, however, would just as easily receive two missiles and become armored, only repairing it would be many times more difficult and expensive.
                      2. 0
                        11 March 2026 05: 55
                        The length of the rocket is 8 meters, should I continue?

                        Да, вам нужно продолжать

                        Все 8 метров пусковой шахты должны находиться ВЫШЕ ватерлинии?
                        Современный боевой корабль и без брони прекрасно может пережить одно и даже 2 попадания противокорабельной ракеты

                        Таких примеров в истории нет
                      3. 0
                        12 March 2026 21: 06
                        Таких примеров в истории нет

                        А много в истории было применений ракет по кораблям? Я вот за то могу припомнить, как во вторую мировую, эсминцы, не имеющие брони, доходили до порта с оторванным носом или с пробоиной в несколько квадратных метров в борту.

                        Все 8 метров пусковой шахты должны находиться ВЫШЕ ватерлинии?

                        Высота борта 22350 8 метров, осадка 4,5 метра, итого 12,5. Так на сколько можно уменьшить высоту борта. что бы сократить бронирование и так, что бы пусковые шахты влезли? А есть гарантии, что кроме шахт высотой 8 метров, больше ничего там не должно быть. Ну коммуникации какие-то, топливные баки и т.п. И кстати, я предлагал забронировать не все 8, а только 6 метров. А ещё я не учитывал тот факт, что броня должна и подводу уходить хотя бы на метр или полтора. Получается Если срезать высоту борта на 2 метра и закрыть его на 4,5 метра, то как раз полтора уйдут под воду. Получается высота бронепояса не уменьшилась. Кстати, если уж такая пляска, то и противоторпедную защиту нужно делать с противоторпедными перегородками, камерами расширения и булями.. Это плюс к ширине, плюс к массе, плюс к расходу топлива, минус к скорости.
                      4. 0
                        Yesterday, 02: 13
                        А много в истории было применений ракет по кораблям?

                        Moscow

                        Зарубежные - Шэффилд, Старк
                        И никто из них «прекрасно не пережил» попадания легких пкр

                        Uss Antrim изрешетили обломки перехваченной ракеты. Последующие испытания на эсминце Стоддард подтвердили опасения - даже успешный перехват не означает что все закончено
                        Так на сколько можно уменьшить высоту борта

                        Все было придумано до нас
                      5. 0
                        Yesterday, 02: 31
                        Снимайте пушки, срезайте боевые мачты, сокращайте экипаж из 500 чел до современных значений. Металл башен раскатать в броневые листы и покрыть ими палубу. Вместо массивных паровых котлов - дизель или газовые турбины. Вместо артиллерии ракеты. На корме или лучше в середине корпуса (где меньше амплитуда качки) вертолетная площадка. Боевой информационный центр глубоко под палубой. Снаружи - легкая ходовая рубка для «мирного времени». Кожухи для 100500 антенн связи и радаров, сколько потребуется

                        И ничего мудрить не придется