On the projects of battleships "for the needs of the Far East" – C. Kramp, A. Lagan, K. K. Ratnik

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On the projects of battleships "for the needs of the Far East" – C. Kramp, A. Lagan, K. K. Ratnik

As is known, the Naval Ministry received American, French and several domestic battleship designs "for the needs of the Far East"... Let's take a closer look at them.

Prototypes


Perhaps the worst prototype was that of C. Crump. The American-built Iowa was certainly a good ship when compared to the American ironclads that preceded it. But the ship, with a speed of 16 knots (during trials, as far as I know, it reached 17,09 knots), 625 tons of normal coal storage, obsolete 12-inch/35 guns, a horizontal armored deck without slopes, etc., didn't look all that good even when compared to the Poltava-class ironclads, whose design was clearly outdated by 1898. Unfortunately, I do not have any data on the design of the 12,400-ton battleship presented by C. Crump, but it is unlikely that the difference in displacement of 1054 tons (the Iowa had a normal displacement of 11,356 tons) could have “pulled” the already outdated design to the level of a modern ocean-going battleship in 1898.

At the same time, the French took as a prototype the battleships of the Charles Martel type, which were, in some way, familiar to our Naval Ministry. History This is what happened to them. A little over a year before the events described, in March 1897, the Director of the Naval Ministry instructed Captain 1st Rank A. M. Abaza, who was based in Le Havre, to gather information about the available Forges et Chantiers shipyards in order to explore the possibility of ordering several 6000-ton cruisers. In response, A. M. Abaza, no longer connected to the task assigned to him, reported that he had had the opportunity to make inquiries and inspect a number of French ships in Toulon, including the battleship Jauréguiberry, a member of the Charles Martel class.

A. M. Abaza described this ship as a 12,000-ton battleship with two armor belts covering the waterline, the lower one reaching up to 45 cm and the upper one up to 10 cm, and an armament including 2×300-mm, 2×270-mm, 8×140-mm, and 6×65-mm guns (the figures presented by A. M. Abaza are not entirely accurate, but are close to the actual figures). The speed "in active service" was 17 knots, and the range was 8000 miles. Moreover, according to A. M. Abaza, the ship was quite undemanding in terms of cost and construction time. The cost of the ship without armament and ammunition was estimated at 23 million francs, which was 8625 thousand rubles. (According to the 1904 Ship List, one franc was worth 0,375 rubles), and the battleship's construction took 30-36 months. Considering that the Peresvet, without armament, was estimated to cost 8,919,000 rubles and took approximately 50 months to build, these figures are quite interesting.

A. M. Abaza, however, was full of praise for the French battleship: he had the opportunity to study the Jauréguiberry from the inside for four hours and found it to be the finest ship he had ever seen. The ship, according to A. M. Abaza, was very well thought out in terms of its overall layout, spacious, and ensured ease of operation. artillery and the supply of shells. Furthermore, A. M. Abaza noted the high quality of the ship's construction, and his overall verdict was as follows: "This ship deserves full attention."Later, A.M. Abaza spoke extremely highly of its builder:

The director of the plant, Mr. Lagan, is probably the most talented shipbuilder in France.


"Zhoregiberri", which made such a strong impression on A. M. Abaza

Some of our esteemed readers may wonder: how can one praise a battleship with a diamond-shaped layout in 1897, especially one with two main guns instead of one? But it's important to understand that designers cannot change a ship's performance characteristics at their own discretion: they design exactly what the client requires. The same applies to builders, who are obligated to build according to the plans provided by the designers.

For a ship to be successful in any respect, its development must be given the correct technical specifications, the designers must create a good design, and then it must be properly executed in metal. But these three pillars are only loosely interconnected: for example, a superbly designed ship can be poorly built. Or consider the armored cruiser Rurik II: it was superbly designed and well built, yet it was "born too late," as it was designed to meet the specifications for a good armored cruiser, when the era of dreadnoughts and battlecruisers had arrived. So, it can be assumed that A. M. Abaza praised the designers and builders, and not necessarily the admirals who formulated the requirements for the Zhoregiberry's armament.

Be that as it may, the MTC had information that the Charles Martel-class battleships, used as the prototype for the Tsarevich, were quite successful, while there were no such reviews about the American Iowa. At the same time, the MTC was completely unimpressed by C. Crump's "12,400-ton battleship" project.

As for Russian designers, they were initially forced to use the Peresvet design as a prototype, but this wasn't their choice. Wanting to build battleships for the Far East as quickly as possible, the Naval Ministry sought to take advantage of the advantages of mass-produced ships. Mass production could be achieved if the new battleships could be designed as closely as possible to the Peresvet and Oslyabya, which were already under construction at the Baltic Shipyard and the Port of St. Petersburg.

This point is extremely important: our designers weren't free to choose the prototype; it was imposed on them "from above," that is, by the Naval Ministry—and there were entirely objective reasons for this. But one should never think that domestic design thinking was "stuck" on the Peresvet and unable to come up with anything else. It's enough to recall the design for a "turret armored cruiser" with a displacement of 15,000 tons, developed by the Baltic Shipyard. Such a ship was proposed for construction immediately after the launch of the armored cruiser Rossiya, and its characteristics were highly unusual, yet impressive. With a normal displacement of 15,000 tons, the cruiser was to carry "battleship" armament: four 12-inch guns in twin turrets and 13 six-inch guns in casemates. The cruiser's speed was expected to be 20 knots, thanks to its "mind-boggling" length of 146,3 meters.

Little is known about this project: on December 16, 1895, the sketch received the approval of the Emperor himself, but how it came to him without going through the ITC is a complete mystery. Detailed technical documentation for the project was submitted to the Technical Committee only on April 22, 1896, but due to the decision to build a new cruiser "based on slightly modified drawings of the cruiser Rossiya", the project did not receive the MTC's verdict.

What a pity! It would be extremely interesting to see how the battle between the Vladivostok detachment and Kamimura's cruisers in the Korea Strait would have gone if the Gromoboy had carried twelve-inch turret guns.

But I digress. I consider the choice of the Peresvet as a prototype a very unfortunate decision. Without a doubt, any design can be improved, but only to a certain point. There is a limit to modernization—a point of technical feasibility beyond which further upgrades become ineffective or even impossible. History is very illustrative in this regard. tank T-34. Certainly, its first prototypes possessed great potential for modernization. And this potential was fully realized in the T-34-85, in which the design reached its apogee, and the tank itself became legendary and, according to many experts, the best tank of World War II.



But this was the limit of modernization: attempts to introduce any further innovations would obviously have resulted in the tank either becoming excessively heavy, losing its inherent mobility, or becoming technically unreliable. Simply put, further radical improvements to any of the T-34-85's characteristics (armament, armor, etc.) were not exactly impossible, but could only be achieved at the expense of critically lowering other performance characteristics, making the "improved" tank overall inferior to the existing one. The appropriate conclusions were drawn, and the venerable veteran was replaced by vehicles from completely new designs: the T-44 and T-54/55, whose level the T-34-85 simply could not match.

So, there's no doubt that the limits of the Peresvet project's modernization were effectively reached somewhere around the Pobeda. All displacement reserves had already been exhausted on Peresvet and Oslyaba as a result of constant design improvements during construction, and not just exhausted, but "overhauled" by approximately a thousand tons. The design of the Pobeda succeeded in reducing overload somewhat while maintaining the 10-inch main caliber, but the ship can hardly be called entirely successful due to its heavy and fuel-hungry three-shaft propulsion plant.

In my opinion, it was precisely reaching the limit of modernization that doomed the attempt to create the "12-inch" Peresvet design: the latter turned out to be larger than the Tsarevich (13,500 tons), but at the same time, in a number of respects, it was inferior to the Peresvet. The situation was rectified only on April 8, 1898, when the Baltic Shipyard received a new program for a twin-shaft battleship of 12,700 tons. It can be said that the futility of the Peresvet design was recognized even at the Naval Ministry, but it clearly continued to weigh heavily on the admirals' minds. True, from that point on, the designers were no longer obligated to adhere to the theoretical drawing of the Peresvet or to retain its other design features, but at the same time, the new technical specifications essentially called for a ship with a twin-shaft propulsion system and 12-inch guns, but in all other respects, it was to remain similar to the Peresvet. The limitation of normal displacement to 12,700 tons (obviously dictated by economy), of which 1000 tons had to be coal, was very strict and left no room for improving the artillery or protecting beyond the requirements established by the battleship program of 12,700 tons.

About the advantages and disadvantages of the presented projects


The simplest case is the American 12,400-ton battleship project. Unfortunately, I have no information about it, but the fact remains: the project was rejected by the Ministry of Transport and Communications even before the Naval Ministry had the opportunity to review the Russian and French proposals. Therefore, it can be safely concluded that C. Crump's project had more shortcomings than advantages and did not meet the requirements of the 12,700-ton battleship program.

Russian projects. A total of five such designs were submitted: four by engineers from the Baltic Shipyard and one by D. V. Skvortsov, a shipbuilder from the St. Petersburg port. Unfortunately, D. V. Skvortsov failed to meet the MTC requirements—the displacement of the ship he designed reached 13,450 tons, which put an end to his project. The Baltic Shipyard's designs, however, were far more interesting. They were submitted to P. P. Tyrtov, the head of the Naval Ministry, for review, and he deemed two of the four designs highly promising. The vice admiral's verdict was as follows:

The Technical Committee, with the participation of several admirals, should review the submitted sketches without delay. Of these, I believe Sketches 1 and 2 best meet our requirements, but with a 6-inch upper armor belt, but I don't want to limit the Committee's choice. We just need to decide quickly which sketch to develop.

In light of the above, it can be concluded that K.K. Ratnik's designers accomplished the task. They succeeded in designing a battleship that met the requirements of the Naval Ministry. This was not possible with the Peresvet design and theoretical drawings, but when the designers were given free rein and allowed to use a twin-shaft propulsion system, they created a quite respectable design for an eighteen-knot battleship with twelve-inch guns and virtually the same displacement as the original Peresvet design (12,700 tons versus 12,674 tons).

This was a remarkable achievement, but the overly stringent requirements for displacement and coal reserves left K.K. Ratnik no room for maneuver. He fulfilled the program's requirements for a 12,700-ton battleship, but was unable to exceed them. For example, its armor remained of the "English" type—with unarmored ends protected only by a carapace deck. Undoubtedly, the Baltic Shipyard's designs best met the MTK program for a 12,700-ton battleship—but that was all.

French project. The ship that A. Lagan undertook to build for the Russian Imperial fleet, exceeded the requirements set by the program—the technical specifications of the MTC—in a number of respects. The advantages of the French proposal are well known.

Firstly, it had a continuous armor belt along the waterline, from stem to sternpost. And not just one armor belt, but two: the main and the upper, which meant the upper armor edge was quite high above the waterline even at full displacement. This armor system was far more advanced than the "British" protection system adopted by our navy, in which the sides at the ends had no vertical armor, and the buoyancy of the bow and stern compartments below the waterline was provided by a carapace deck.

Secondly, there was the 40mm anti-mine armor bulkhead—an innovation that, at least in theory, looked very interesting. This bulkhead was located two meters from the side and was 84 meters long (in the initial design, 88,8 meters in the final version).

Thirdly, there's, of course, the turret-mounted placement of medium-caliber guns. This isn't just a matter of the turrets themselves, but rather their placement provided far better firing angles than casemates.


What was particularly appealing was that all these undeniable advantages were purchased, at first glance, at a seemingly insignificant price—an increase in displacement by just over 400 tons over what was stated in the program. But… Upon closer inspection, things weren't quite so clear-cut.

A. Lagan's project is the best. But at what cost?


To this day, there's a common online opinion that the need to engage foreign firms in the design of the battleship was primarily due to the inability of the domestic shipbuilding school to design a ship of this class that was modern at the time. But let's take a closer look at the characteristics of the Russian and French designs.


The heavy hull weight of the French battleship design is immediately noticeable – as the table shows, it accounts for 39,1% of the normal displacement, while for domestic designs this figure ranges from 36,9% to 38,1%. Did A. Lagan really approach the project carelessly? Of course not. As is well known, the "Frenchman" had two armored decks, one of which was continuous and located along the upper edge of the upper armor belt, while the second, located below the first, connected two mine-protection bulkheads.


So, judging by the Tsarevich's weight list, the anti-mine bulkheads and, possibly, the connecting deck, with a total weight of 769,9 tons, were included in the hull weight, not the armor. However, if we were to convert the hull weights of the Baltic Shipyard and A. Lagan designs to a single "coordinate system" for accurate comparison, it would hardly be appropriate to completely subtract the 769,9 tons from the French battleship's hull weight.

The fact is that the armored decks on the Peresvet-class battleships were generally (or entirely, I don't know for sure) constructed as follows: there was a deck of shipbuilding steel of a certain thickness, up to 12,7 mm, on top of which armor plates were laid (even if they were made of the same shipbuilding steel). It can be assumed that the deck was considered part of the hull's weight, and the armor plates laid on it were considered part of the armor. In other words, without the deck armor, the Peresvet's hull still had decks. Meanwhile, the Tsarevich's weight of 769,9 tons most likely (and again, this is not certain) includes the anti-mine bulkheads and the entire deck—removing this would leave one of the decks missing entirely. Therefore, a direct comparison would be imprecise.

Here, I'd like to draw attention to the danger of comparing ship design weights: without detailed knowledge of where and how certain weights were included, making an accurate comparison based solely on general information about the weight of the hull, armor, artillery, etc. is extremely difficult. This is unless we're talking about structurally similar designs created by the same design team.

But let's return to the Baltic Shipyard and A. Lagan's designs. The fact that the French battleship was 400 (or, to be precise, 407) tons heavier is only half the story. Because the French shipbuilder gained another 402,4 tons by saving weight in various load areas, reducing them relative to the design specifications.


Not only did the future "Tsesarevich" turn out to be heavier than required, but the reduction of the standard coal supply from 1000 to 800 tons allowed the French to free up 200 tons for other needs. Furthermore, according to the program, a 12,700-ton battleship with a normal displacement was required to carry provisions for four months and water for two months. But A. Lagan reduced these amounts to two months and ten days, respectively. These may seem like small details, but this allowed the redistribution of another 202,35 tons to other cargoes.

In total, A. Lagan' received 809,35 tons for deviations from the specifications, but that's not all. The Baltic Shipyard's conservatism in estimating the weight of the power plant played a significant role. The fact is that A. Lagan' allocated 1527 tons for this, with a machine output of 16,300 hp, which gave a specific power of the plant of 10,7 hp per ton. At the same time, the Baltic Shipyard determined the weight of a weaker machine with 15,000 hp at a whopping 1830 tons (the battleship's design was 12,700 tons) or 1750 tons (the battleship's design was 13,000 tons). Accordingly, the specific power of the mechanisms, according to the Baltic Shipyard, should have been only 8,2-8,6 hp/t.

And here K.K. Ratnik completely misjudged and significantly underestimated the capabilities of the domestic manufacturer. Thus, the engines and boilers of the battleship Borodino, manufactured by the Franco-Russian Plants Society based on French designs, with a design capacity of 16,300 hp, actually weighed only 1420,1 tons. As for the Baltic Shipyard, when creating the power plant for the battleship Emperor Alexander III, it aimed for a capacity of 15,800 hp with a weight of 1527 tons, but during testing, the capacity actually reached 16,250 hp.

Given the above, nothing prevented our designers from reducing the weight of the mechanisms in the 12,700-ton battleship design to 1500 tons or even less. But this wasn't done, and as a result, A. Lagan gained an additional 303 tons of weight—although this time, it was the fault of our shipbuilders.

So it was that, due to increased displacement, reduced coal, food, and water reserves, as well as our designers' errors in reducing the weight of the mechanisms, A. Lagan gained an additional 1112 tons of weight, which he could have spent on strengthening the armor, armament, and other needs. Is it any wonder he ended up with a more formidable battleship?

And another important detail. Weights are important, but the ship's internal volume is also important. The French battleship carried only 1350 tons of coal at full displacement, while the Baltic Shipyard's design carried 2000 tons, which obviously required our designers to provide more space for coal storage. Given the ship's smaller displacement, this obviously complicated the design.

Overall, it can be concluded that the advantages of the French battleship design for "the needs of the Far East" over domestic designs stem not from the backwardness of the Russian design school, but from the fact that A. Lagan had the opportunity to select a more suitable prototype and, in doing so, allowed himself to ignore some of the requirements imposed by the MTC on the designed ship. In terms of compliance with the technical specifications, the Baltic Shipyard clearly won. It was they who submitted designs that most closely matched the battleship construction program developed and approved by the MTC. However, the Baltic Shipyard's battleship design proved inferior to the French one in terms of combat performance.

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  1. +8
    3 February 2026 05: 40
    The Baltic Shipyard won by a clear margin. It was they who submitted the designs that most closely matched the battleship construction program developed and approved by the Ministry of Transport and Communications.

    Thank you for the article!
    The author honestly tries to understand the reasons why it was this way and not otherwise.
    A rather thankless task. We possess usefulness, unlike those involved in the Borodino EBR series.
    Andrey knows that during wartime, a mass production with systematic modernization of a single model is better than a single wunderwaffe. Andrey is right in recalling our T-34. But there was another side to the coin: the PzIV, which Nazi Germany turned into an "ugly duckling" when it began churning out "wonder weapons" like the Tigers and Panthers during the war.
    After all, Japan achieved victory with the conditional battleships of yesterday over the progressive Tsareviches.
    In essence, the “substandard” Retvizan turned out to be better than both the Tsarevich and the Victory.
    The same old Sevastopols were more resilient in squadron combat than Borodino.
    The question is different - everything that is best is not always good.
    1. +5
      3 February 2026 06: 42
      [quote = Kote Pan Kokhanka] [quote]
      The same old Sevastopols were more resilient in squadron combat than Borodino.
      [/ Quote]
      How can an obsolete ship be more resilient? Factors from the battles in the Yellow Sea and Tsushima must be taken into account. Did the Japanese have the same ammunition? Did they use the same tactics? In the Yellow Sea, Togo failed to place a T-bar, hence the outcome.
      1. +7
        3 February 2026 10: 10
        Quote: Panin (Michman)
        Did the Japanese have the same shells?

        The shells are the same, only the ratio of types has changed in favor of high-explosive ones.
        Was it the same tactic?

        The tactics have changed radically and the distance too.
        In the ZhM, the Japanese opened fire from 13,000 meters, in Tsushima from 6,400 meters. A twofold difference.
        1. +1
          3 February 2026 12: 40
          The range changed several times during the battle. The Japanese could theoretically have fired from 75 cables, but their hit rate is highly questionable. Even if we believe that the Japanese had two British officers with the Dumaresq Device, even the primitive and not very accurate Mk. 1, it's possible there were two devices, on the two flagships.
          1. +5
            3 February 2026 12: 50
            Quote: TermNachTER
            Even if we believe that the Japanese had two British officers with the "Dumaresq Device"

            Don't believe it. There were no such devices in Tsushima, nor were there any fire control devices operated by British officers.
            1. 0
              3 February 2026 12: 58
              Theoretically, it's possible. The Japanese did have rangefinders, didn't they? The first prototype was manufactured in 1902, and by 1903, production of the Mk. 1 was already underway. The British could have tested the device in a real war, but of course, no one intended to hand it over to the Japanese.
            2. 0
              6 February 2026 11: 36
              There were neither these devices nor fire control by British officers in Tsushima.

              I don't know about the instruments, but there were definitely British officers on Japanese ships. Both at Shantung and at Tsushima...
      2. +3
        3 February 2026 12: 37
        A series of improved "Sevastopol" class submarines could have been built, taking into account the shortcomings and making minimal changes to the basic design. Instead of the "Pobeda" and "Gromoboi," a series of "Potemkin" submarines could have been built; in 1896, a design already existed—two, in fact, for the Black Sea and the Baltic. Kramp could have ordered three "Retvizan" submarines. Instead of the "Bayan," the Italians could have ordered "Garibaldi" submarines, especially since they themselves had proposed them. Much could have been accomplished if the right decision had been made in St. Petersburg in 1895 and its implementation strictly monitored.
        1. +5
          3 February 2026 13: 30
          In previous articles, the author has already explained the reasons why the Naval Ministry abandoned the idea of ​​creating a new project based on the Poltava-class battleships...
          1. 0
            3 February 2026 16: 38
            Is the author the ultimate authority? Or perhaps he personally communicated with Tyrtov, Makarov, Ratnik, and Kazi? The author repeats a set of well-known assertions.
            1. +6
              4 February 2026 12: 44
              It's up to each individual to decide how valid the author's arguments are. I found them convincing. However, I agree with you that the Peresvets were a mistake and a dead end, and if, instead of developing the Peresvets, they had immediately taken the Poltava design as a basis and refined it, it would have been the best path for the development of the battleship fleet in the Russian Empire.
              1. +3
                4 February 2026 13: 29
                The Poltava could have been improved, the Potemkin could have been built—there were two options, a Black Sea and a Baltic. They could have ordered three Retvizan-class submarines from Kramp. They could have ordered Garibaldi-class submarines from the Italians instead of the Bayan. They could have overhauled the Nakhimov and Rurik in the US instead of sending the Nakhimov around the world. Many things could have been accomplished if the war with Japan had been taken with the utmost seriousness.
                1. +4
                  4 February 2026 14: 30
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  order "Garibaldi" from the Italians

                  We had absolutely no need for the "Garibaldi" tanks. They were a "poor man's battleship," and it would have been terrifying to deploy them into the line of battle.
                  And "Bayan" is a reconnaissance ship attached to the squadron. The ship is in its proper place.
                  1. +1
                    5 February 2026 11: 14
                    Quote: rytik32
                    We had absolutely no need for the "Garibaldi" tanks. They were a "poor man's battleship," and it would have been terrifying to deploy them into the line of battle.

                    But the Japanese didn't disdain such ships, and didn't regret them at all. Even though their actual maximum speed, fully loaded, was no more than 18 knots. In a battle line, they were quite capable of countering Asamis, but like Togo, they would have had to be placed in the same line with other battleships. Besides, we didn't have our own "fast wing" like the Japanese. The Peresvet-class ships weren't built for squadron combat either, but they fought in a single formation with classic battleships. They simply shouldn't have skimped on ship purchases and orders before the war, lest they later go to great lengths to buy the same Garibaldians and even less successful cruisers and second-rank battleships from Argentina and Chile through intermediaries. To avoid chasing the main forces of the squadron around Africa in hopes of a rendezvous with "Argentine and Chilean cruisers secretly purchased by Witte's agents," they should have simply taken advantage of the opportunity to order the ships the fleet needed from foreign shipyards, rather than skimp. And they should have chosen designs suitable for rapid serial production, i.e., with casemate batteries.
                    The Admiralty immediately rejected the Poltava prototypes. And not only because they were "outdated," but because the complexity of the multi-turret design, having experienced their long-term construction, didn't want to accept another long-term project. Therefore, the Retvizan's architecture itself was optimal, and it didn't matter what chassis it was based on—the Tsarevich, with its casemate battery from the Potemkin. The Retvizan would have been a beauty, built faster, a little cheaper, and could have had a decent production run. If only there had been a different tsar and a different finance minister on the throne. And with those who were, this and only this could have happened.
                    Quote: rytik32
                    And "Bayan" is a reconnaissance ship attached to the squadron. The ship is in its proper place.

                    The "Bayan" was essentially given the same technical specifications as the original "Bogin" project - two 8" main guns in turrets + 8 x 6" mounts. Only with an armor belt. The insufficient speed was surprising. After all, with such a modest vertical displacement, with such a length and aspect ratio, and with 17000 hp engines, it should have produced 21-21,5 knots. But it barely managed 20,5. Inefficient propellers? Something wrong with the hydrodynamics? The Asamites with 17,000-horsepower engines produced 20,5 knots with a vertical displacement of 10,000 tons and a shorter hull. What's wrong with it?

                    What's interesting and useful in this article is that engines with a capacity of 15,000-15,500 hp were readily available for the Russian Empire at the time (1897-1898), and it was for these engines that the "goddess" designs were proposed, which, with engines like the "Bayan" and armament (but without the armor belt), could easily achieve 20-20,5 knots. But the astonishing decision to build three-shaft ships, on antediluvian, weak engines and with monstrous boilers... brought shame on domestic shipbuilding.
                    But they had to be built exactly according to the original design - 4 "goddesses" at 20 knots, and 6 cruisers according to the "Askold" design at... almost 25 knots (two for the Germans and four for themselves).
                    And for a high-speed wing to counter that of the Japanese, the Pobeda and Gromoboy should have been laid down according to the design of the Peresvet, reworked to a twin-shaft configuration, with engines from the Bogatyr (20,000 hp), which were already ready in 1898. A twin-shaft armored cruiser in the dimensions of the Peresvet, but with a lowered side (as the Admiralty wanted), 10" main guns and a casemate battery from the Potemkin/Retvizan on 12 x 6" VK. And they would have received powerful armored cruisers with a speed of 21 knots at a maximum power of 12,000 tons.
                    Build the Bogatyr and another similar one for the Germans using the same design. And order two more from Kramp, but with the correct boilers. He really wanted to build cruisers "better than Asama." So, six high-speed armored cruisers on time. A high-speed wing of the Pacific Fleet, which would fend off sheep like an ox, like the Japanese. And what's most interesting is that similar proposals came from the Admiralty. It's not just us who have the benefit of hindsight; at the right time, the right proposals were made and defended... But it was a completely useless exercise. Witte manipulated the stupid Tsar, so not just the worst decisions were made, but the worst of the worst.
                    Who there, in response to the Foolish Tsar's words, "Well, I think the Japanese are yellow-faced macaques?" replied, "Well, then we're so-so." Because arguing with an idiot was utterly impossible. But he listened to Witte... like an "oracle," like a "father figure."
                    1. +2
                      5 February 2026 15: 19
                      and didn't regret it at all

                      The Japanese were happy with any strengthening

                      In a battle line they could easily resist the Asami.

                      What if you had to confront the Shikishima?
                      We didn't have our own "fast wing" like the Japanese

                      There was no point in this.
                      i.e. with casemate batteries of the VK

                      Casemates required complexly shaped armor steel, making it more difficult to produce than the steel for turrets. Ultimately, such ships could have taken even longer to build.
                      Irrational propellers? Something wrong with the hydrodynamics?

                      Other testing requirements. If the Asama had been accepted under RIF rules, it would have been at least 1 knot slower than the Bayan.
                      1. 0
                        6 February 2026 08: 33
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Other testing requirements. If the Asama had been accepted under RIF rules, it would have been at least 1 knot slower than the Bayan.

                        Then it is clear and approximately corresponds to the power of the power plant.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The Japanese were happy with any strengthening

                        And what about us in Arthur? With five battleships and three armored cruisers (the Peresvets weren't designed for squadron combat, so they're cruisers after all) against six first-class battleships and eight second-class battleships? A simple alternative, when the "Garibaldians" end up in Arthur, that gives us 10 armored ships for squadron combat against the Japanese's 12, who also need to field 3-4 Asamites against the Vladivostok cruisers? Everything immediately takes on a different color, and every chance appears to be opening up for successful maneuver warfare at sea, preventing the Japanese from landing in Dalny, and confidently awaiting the arrival of the second squadron, which wouldn't have to trudge around Africa but rather make a forced march to Arthur. The Garibaldians had the same squadron speed as the Peresvets and would have been quite capable of holding the line. They could also, along with the Peresvets, Bayan, Retvizan, and Tsarevich, form their own so-called "fast wing" of the squadron. This would have acquired special meaning if the battleships' exchange with the mines had taken place as in the original. These two Garibaldians could have effectively balanced the forces of the 1st Squadron, and by late summer or early fall, the second would have arrived. And the tide of the war at sea had turned.
                        The problem was that we simply couldn’t buy out the Argentine “Garibaldians” – for that we would have needed permission from the British, and they wouldn’t have given that permission.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        We didn't have our own "fast wing" like the Japanese
                        There was no point in this.

                        This is when we consider the balance of power (as it was) - we are always fighting in the minority. But let's imagine that a miracle happened and four "Borodinets" ended up in Artur before the war began. And along with them, the "Oslyabya." We have a clear advantage in main forces, but we cannot inflict a decisive defeat on the Japanese - the enemy constantly eludes thanks to its superior speed. We do not even allow the Japanese to consider landing in Manchuria; we can even disrupt their landing in Korea or disrupt, disrupt their supply lines... but we do not have the ground forces for our own landing in Korea; keeping fleet ships constantly at anchor is too difficult and tedious for logistics and makes ships vulnerable to attack while loading coal. And the Japanese, thanks to their superior speed, have the initiative for maneuver warfare. Of course, this scenario is in case Japan decides to land in Korea under such conditions.
                        A high-speed wing of armored cruisers with 10" main guns and a speed of up to 21 knots would solve all the problems here. Just look at the distances to the Korean ports that we would have to control when leaving Arthur - Logistics. After all, we only have a handful of troops in Manchuria, and the Circum-Baikal Railway is still under construction. Our fleet would have to fight almost without ground support. And without the support of bases in Korea. Well, that's just a matter of playing with maps.
                        As for the "fast wing" for the Pacific Fleet... every opportunity for its creation was there - simply the "Gromoboy" and "Pobeda" should have been laid down according to the design of a twin-shaft cruiser with a 20,000 hp propulsion plant from the "Bogatyr." A reworked "Peresvet" design with a slightly lowered side and a casemate battery from the "Potemkin." And we would have gotten wonderful ships. Much more useful to the fleet in that war. And the Germans (the Kaiser) could have been persuaded to build two such cruisers for us (simply by promising an alliance treaty after the Russian Yamal-Nenets Autonomous Region, which he was really trying to achieve at the time). And Kramp would have been ordered two such cruisers according to our design. So, six battlecruisers were built by the deadline - by the end of 1903 in Artur.
                        Andrey (the author) continues to dig into the topic of the Russian Nuclear War, and more and more facts are emerging that foolishness and stupidity were confined to the highest echelons. At the professional level, however, sound projects and proposals for resolving the issues of preparation for the Russian Nuclear War were in abundance. They were simply rejected by the Foolish Tsar and the Treacherous Vizier. After all, the Vulcan company was commissioned to develop a 20,000-hp propulsion plant for more than just an armored cruiser. It was precisely this (the 20,000-hp propulsion plant) that was in mind for the prospective "ideal cruiser" project and for the two-shaft version of the Peresvet; it was even proposed to be installed on the Novik... but Schichau refused, as they already had a project for a three-shaft cruiser ready... Incidentally, they later built a decent number of similar light cruisers of the VI 4000-ton class for themselves.
                      2. +1
                        6 February 2026 16: 26
                        These two "Garibaldians" could actually relatively balance the forces of the 1st squadron.

                        The Oslyabya and Alexander III would have been much more likely to transfer. They didn't even need to be purchased from anyone...
                        the enemy constantly escapes thanks to superior speed

                        So much the worse for him. When Japan is blockaded, or even when troops land, will the navy still be on the run?
                        that the foolishness and stupidity at the top was only there

                        The foolishness and stupidity lay in overestimating their own strength. The 1st Japanese Navy was considered equal to the Japanese fleet. The 2nd Japanese Navy was also considered capable of opposing it, although the 2nd Japanese Navy was without Nebogatov, while the Japanese had six battleships.
                      3. -3
                        6 February 2026 17: 10
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The transfer of Oslyabya and Alexander III would have been much more likely.

                        If you analyze the history and chronology of the RYaV, it's all made up of such absurdities and twists and turns. But the Foolish King, on the advice of the Cunning Vizier, always chose the worst solution.
                        Certainly, the Alexander-3 and Oslyabya were far superior to the two Garibaldi-class battleships, which, moreover, no one would have sold to us due to the terms of the peace treaty between Argentina and Chile—only England decided to whom the ships of these countries, including those under construction, could be sold. Of course, with two such battleships, with their 18-knot speed, our squadron at Artur would have acquired very good combat stability, especially considering that the cruisers Oleg and Aurora could have arrived alongside them. And if the Navy Department had shown some agility, the Sisoya and Navarin could have been ready for the campaign. While they were weak against Japanese battleships, they were quite capable against second-rank cruisers and battleships. And we would have had our own fast wing in the Pacific Fleet, consisting of three new battleships, three Peresvet-class battleships, and a Bayan-class battleship. And five slower battleships with a squadron speed of 15 knots. A total of 12, which would undoubtedly be a formidable force, capable of disrupting/preventing the Japanese landing in Korea. A landing in Manchuria was already out of the question. All this was already in place (the Sisoya and Navarin were recalled to Kronstadt for some unknown reason), and the Naval Ministry understood all this, but... the traitor in power was in charge. He stubbornly kept the Retvizan, Tsarevich, and Bayan in Suez, preventing them from sailing to Arthur. They, in defiance of all prohibitions, made their own decision to sail to Arthur, arriving just days before the war. The Oleg, Aurora, and Oslyabya were also in Suez, but the Oslyabya had sustained damage to its bottom and therefore decided to remain behind. The commanders of the Oleg and Aurora stayed behind on their own initiative, so as not to abandon the Oslyabya alone.
                        Can you imagine what would have happened in Arthur if "Retvizan," "Tsarevich," and "Bayan" hadn't come to fulfill Judas Witte's orders? Shame and defeat would have been assured from the very first days of the war. And that's precisely what Witte was aiming for. His disastrous role in the fate of the Russian Empire has only recently begun to be discussed openly (albeit cautiously). It was considered politically incorrect, because Witte's surname is Rothschild, according to halachic law (through his mother and grandmother). From the French branch of the clan. Incidentally, he also brought British capital (not just banks) into Russia, disguised as French. And through them (these banks) the financing and coordination of revolutionary and other subversive structures took place.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The foolishness and stupidity lay in overestimating one's own strength. The 1st Japanese Navy was considered equal to the 2nd Japanese Navy. The 2nd Japanese Navy was also capable of opposing it, and the 2nd Japanese Navy was without Nebogatov.

                        I don't think the sailors had that opinion. This nonsense was being broadcast through Niki No. 2 by Witte. At least, I read it repeatedly in his telegrams to the detachment in Suez and to Rozhdestvensky during the campaign. But neither Rozhdestvensky nor Makarov thought so at all.
                      4. 0
                        7 February 2026 12: 53
                        The Oslyabya and Alexander III would have been much more likely to transfer. They didn't even need to be purchased from anyone...

                        Dear Alexey!
                        The addition of two battleships to the First Pacific Squadron would have only increased the number of ships wasted during the siege of Port Arthur. However, this same circumstance would have eliminated the Tsushima disaster altogether.
                        As for "Oslyabya" and "Emperor Alexander III", their fate is the most striking confirmation of the saying "you can't escape fate!"
                      5. +3
                        7 February 2026 15: 20
                        Good afternoon!
                        Dear Victor,
                        I believe the 1st TIE had a chance to turn the tide of the war before Makarov's death. They had proactive officers and a decent fire control system that just needed some improvement...
                      6. 0
                        7 February 2026 15: 38
                        Good afternoon, Alexey!
                        Without going into politics, there was a chance to fight the Japanese in February-March 1904. The outcome of the battle would most likely be a draw.
                        Furthermore, Britain, faced with the threat of a merger between the First and Second Pacific Squadrons, would have taken comprehensive blocking measures, both by supplying additional units to the Japanese and by applying diplomatic pressure on Russia and its potential allies. The Duncan Six, handed over to the Japanese, would have clearly put an end to our Far Eastern adventures.
                      7. +2
                        7 February 2026 15: 55
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        The Six Duncans

                        By 1904, Britain was already beginning to move closer to Russia, so Britain wouldn't have agreed to this. Otherwise, Russia would have moved closer to Germany, which would have meant death for Britain.
                      8. +1
                        7 February 2026 20: 52
                        Fact. Literature notes that the British purchased the Trachomas and Swiftsuri for their fleet, in part, to avoid selling them to the Japanese. By that time, notes on the treaty dividing spheres of influence in Persia were already in place.
                      9. +4
                        7 February 2026 16: 16
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        The Duncan Six, handed over to the Japanese

                        Absolutely Unreal
                      10. +1
                        7 February 2026 17: 58
                        Greetings, Ivan!
                        I'm afraid Zinovy ​​Petrovich is closer to the truth on this matter. The British are masters of following through on decisions. And driving Russia out of China and the Pacific is a strategic decision. Germany will become a threat to Great Britain in another ten years. And then they will risk starting a European war (as they thought).
                      11. +4
                        7 February 2026 18: 39
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        Germany will become a danger to Britain in another 10 years.

                        The Entente appeared precisely in 1904 against Germany.
                        Let me remind you that in 1904 England sold the latest rangefinders to Russia (albeit not directly).
                        In 1905, Russia had already ordered the Rurik II from England.
                      12. 0
                        7 February 2026 18: 47
                        It’s interesting here how the English are able to combine the seemingly incompatible!
                        In reality, for Great Britain in 1904, Germany was a catching-up competitor in industrial terms, not yet a rival at sea. Russia, provided it defeated Japan, was a threat to the entire Asian part of the British Empire, a force impossible to control and a force to be reckoned with. So, in 1904-1905, Russia was solving a twofold problem:
                        - countering the "Russian threat" in the Pacific Ocean and in China;
                        - the formation of the Russian Empire as a "steamroller" obedient to Great Britain against the Union of Central Powers.
                        It must be acknowledged that this dual task was accomplished with minimal cost to the Beneficiary.
                      13. -1
                        10 February 2026 19: 20
                        Rangefinders weren't sold by England, but by Barr & Strud, to anyone who could pay. At the time, they were already offering "six-foot" rangefinders, but no one wanted to buy them because they were too expensive.
                        It would have been better if the Rurik II had never been ordered – a waste of money. So here, too, the British gained more than they lost.
                      14. +3
                        7 February 2026 19: 19
                        I don't think Britain cared a jot how the war ended. It was completely neutral. No nastiness was noticeable. Britain sent the Russian fleet to the Far East. And let Russia get bogged down there for a while longer. If it had won, it would have been bogged down; if it had lost, that would have been perfect. If the Japanese lost, they would have ordered more ships. And all that jazz. Basically, they gave us a rash of lice, a small thing, but nice.
                        So, the catastrophic defeat of the Russian Empire was, overall, disadvantageous. Russia would have won and would have been tinkering around in the northern Pacific Ocean, undisturbed. Meanwhile, Japan's dramatic rise to power and its rise to the top of the naval hierarchy came as a surprise. And the British soon paid for it.
                      15. +2
                        7 February 2026 17: 38
                        The 1st TOE could have been seriously strengthened by the beginning of the Russian Nuclear War by pulling armored ships and available cruisers to the Far East.

                        Plus, the 1st TOE had the advantage that in order to attack it, it would have to come to Port Arthur.
                        If the Japanese ship were seriously damaged, the chances of losing it would be higher than those of the Russian one, since the base is far away.
                      16. +2
                        8 February 2026 12: 57
                        Quote: rytik32
                        If the Asama had been accepted according to the RIF rules, it would have been at least 1 knot slower than the Bayan.

                        Colleague, what do you think about the performance characteristics of the "vacanto-okupanto" pair? (Sweatshirt and Triomphe)
                        The length-to-beam ratio isn't that much better than the Peresvets. The power is even lower. And the speed is almost 20 knots.
                        This couple annoys me! am
                      17. +3
                        9 February 2026 10: 52
                        Dear Ivan,
                        Unfortunately, I don't have any materials on this pair.
                        I assume that they had an optimized underwater shape.
                        And so, it is necessary to look at the details of the tests, including those carried out after entering service.
                      18. 0
                        9 February 2026 16: 09
                        Most likely, as usual for a foreign customer from a third-rate country. Underload, Cardiff, beer, and graphite.
                      19. +1
                        10 February 2026 15: 07
                        Yes, but they served in the Royal Navy.
                      20. 0
                        11 February 2026 13: 42
                        Well, we don't really know anything about them. Vacante and okupado, and that the British didn't like these ships. That's all.
                  2. 0
                    10 February 2026 19: 10
                    The "Garibaldi" ships successfully recaptured the entire Russian Navy from the Japanese and then served long and happily. Why can't this be done in Russia? The "Bayan" is a completely insane ship, expensive and useless in every respect.
              2. +2
                7 February 2026 18: 46
                Regarding "Poltava", - This is hindsight.
                The Peresvet is an intermediate type of warship between a battleship and an armored cruiser. "A battleship that can be characterized as an armored cruiser" (C).
                An attempt to save money by building one type of warship instead of building battleships and armored cruisers separately.
                Andrey had a separate article about this on VO.
                1. +2
                  7 February 2026 19: 40
                  The more I look at it, the more I believe the Peresvets weren't a failure. The decision to use them as squadron battleships was wrong. Although they held up well. The Oslyabya doesn't count. But even the full-fledged battleships got their share of the brunt there. Due to their passive combat.
                  The British, in their panic, even built a series of "Canopus" ships. With armor like that of armored cruisers. It's also unclear what they have. Perhaps only 12-inch main guns.
                  1. -1
                    10 February 2026 19: 24
                    They weren't cut out for the role of ocean raider either, with their paltry cruising range. While this role was still somewhat in the cards before 1895, completing the Pobeda to this design was simply nonsense.
    2. +3
      3 February 2026 09: 09
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      The same old Sevastopols were more resilient in squadron combat than Borodino.

      One factor may be better combat readiness and the lack of excess flammable materials on the ships, rather than the ships themselves.
      Well, the question of shells and target distribution is also of considerable importance.
    3. +2
      3 February 2026 12: 31
      The problem is that ships that look good on paper don't always perform well in real life. Especially considering the persistent problem of Russian shipbuilding: overloading.
      1. +2
        3 February 2026 12: 48
        Quote: TermNachTER
        construction overload

        Is it only construction?
        Langeland VI "Orla" had 15,300 tons, MCD 2 feet 9 inches with 450 tons of coal on board.
        Before leaving Maizuru for Kure, the Iwami had a GVW of 14,131.95 tons, a MDW of 3 feet 2,5 inches, and 980 tons of coal on board.
        1. 0
          3 February 2026 12: 52
          Yes, but the design capacity was 13,500 tons. The Japanese were modernizing the Oryol, so they could have reduced the capacity.
          1. +2
            3 February 2026 12: 56
            The Iwami was modernized in Kure.
            Above, I cited measurements taken on July 10, 1905 (New Style). At that point, there had been no modernization whatsoever. They had only just managed to "slightly" unload the supplies.
            1. 0
              3 February 2026 13: 00
              It's somewhat dubious. How did they remove 1200 tons of excess fuel? Even if you take into account the coal that was accepted for transhipment, the fuel, and supplies.
              1. +1
                3 February 2026 14: 04
                And did you forget the six medium-caliber turrets? The spent ammunition?
                1. +1
                  3 February 2026 14: 24
                  Quote from: d.zacharith
                  And did you forget the six medium-caliber turrets? The spent ammunition?

                  The turrets were still in place. The ammunition had been removed.
              2. +2
                3 February 2026 17: 44
                See the table in my article https://topwar.ru/258592-o-nepotopljaemosti-bronenosca-osljabja.html
                It was precisely the "other operational overload" that was removed. Moreover, the Japanese unloaded the ammunition and some supplies that were part of the normal load.
        2. 0
          7 February 2026 20: 56
          According to Kostenko, who was directly involved in the construction of the Orel, its construction overload was 650 tons. The rest was operational and excess variable cargo.
          1. +2
            8 February 2026 10: 14
            Quote: Vik_Vik
            according to Kostenko, who was directly involved in its construction

            "Participated in the construction" is a bit of a stretch. When Vladimir Polievktovich graduated from the naval academy, there were only a couple of months left before the battleship was due to be delivered to the treasury.
            As for the cargoes Kosenko mentioned, he constantly got them mixed up. He told the commission one thing, but wrote something else in his memoirs. Considering how "precisely" he calculated the number of hits on the Orel, his "figures" should be treated with a certain amount of caution.
            1. 0
              9 February 2026 11: 07
              Quote: Senior Sailor
              There were a couple of months left before the battleship was handed over to the treasury

              The "Eagle" was completed and modernized while still en route.

              he was constantly confused in his testimony

              Kostenko constantly clarified the information.

              and taking into account how "accurately" he counted the number of hits on the "Eagle"

              Kostenko's estimate of the number of hits in "Orel" is closest to reality
              1. +1
                9 February 2026 13: 30
                Quote: rytik32
                Kostenko's estimate of the number of hits in "Orel" is closest to reality

                Are you serious now?
                1. -1
                  9 February 2026 13: 58
                  Quote: Senior Sailor
                  Are you serious now?

                  Yes!
                  Whose assessment do you consider to be closest to reality?
                  1. +2
                    10 February 2026 15: 20
                    As S. Suliga wrote:
                    A simple arithmetic calculation reveals how wrong V.P. Kostenko was in his assessment that the Orel was hit by 42 12-inch shells. Even if we assume the Japanese fired their entire ammunition supply and achieved a fantastic 10% hit rate, the poor Orel accounted for almost half of all 12-inch hits. The absurdity is obvious.

                    Or here's another example from the book "On the Orel at Tsushima": try to find the impact marks of those 300 shells on the Orel's damage diagrams. Personally, I didn't even reach a hundred (according to Pakenham, there were 76, including small-caliber shells and shrapnel).

                    Perhaps Pakenham was the closest to reality
                    1. +1
                      10 February 2026 20: 39
                      Quote: Senior Sailor
                      Pakenham was the closest to reality

                      In the quote above, Pakenham was confused with Campbell.
                      Pakenham reports approximately 40 holes in the hull on the port side and 20 on the starboard side. Another 23-25 ​​hits were in the armor, deck, pipes, masts, etc. https://rytik32.livejournal.com/331.html
                      Campbell counted 76 hits, but it cannot be verified; he did not describe each of them or plot them on a diagram.
                      those same 300 shells

                      The original has 300 holes, not shells. Kostenko has 140 shells.
                      achieved a fantastic 10% result

                      The Japanese achieved 10% for 12-inch guns in the ZhM at much greater distances than at Tsushima, without daily barrel firing and improved fire control techniques.
                      1. +2
                        11 February 2026 07: 59
                        In other words, the Oryol really was hit 40 times by 12" shells?
                      2. 0
                        11 February 2026 10: 23
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        In other words, the Oryol really was hit 40 times by 12" shells?

                        If this is indeed true, then the ship turned out to be amazingly strong.
                      3. +1
                        11 February 2026 11: 09
                        And the Japanese's 12-inch guns had a firing accuracy of at least 50%. Which, in fact, is technically impossible.
                      4. 0
                        11 February 2026 13: 51
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Which is actually technically impossible.

                        Why is it impossible?
                        During the exercises, the Mikasa's 12-inch bow turret hit the island 4/4 times with reduced charges from a distance of 2,6...3,1 km.
                      5. +1
                        11 February 2026 14: 20
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Why is it impossible?

                        Unfortunately, it is a fact.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        On the teachings

                        Sometimes the hit rate was as high as 100%, but it was never confirmed in combat. The British, for example, often hit over 50% of their dreadnoughts, but in combat they never even reached 5%.
                        Objective reality
                      6. 0
                        11 February 2026 14: 28
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        00% was, but was never confirmed in battle.

                        I know of at least one example of 100% accuracy of shooting at a ship.
                        and in battle they didn't even reach 5%

                        "Sikisisma" hit "Oslyabya" with its first 12-inch shell, and "Fuji" also hit first. So, in the end, the damage could have reached 50% during the battle.
                      7. 0
                        11 February 2026 19: 03
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I know of at least one example of 100% accuracy of shooting at a ship.

                        And where is he?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        "Shikisisma" hit "Oslyabya" with its first 12-inch shell, "Fuji" also hit first.

                        Maybe yes, maybe no.
                        A first-round hit isn't all that uncommon, but the problem is that in all reliably documented cases, 100% first-shot accuracy quickly dropped to 3-5% or less. As was the case with Goeben and Eustathius, for example.
                        There's a concept called sample representativeness. Your sample isn't representative for the forecast.
                      8. 0
                        Yesterday, 18: 22
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And where is he?

                        The 280mm coastal battery of the Oscarborg fortress, based on the "Blücher", in 1940.

                        In all reliably known cases, 100% accuracy from the first shot quickly dropped to 3-5% or less

                        Please provide a representative sample of such cases.

                        in the case of Goeben and Eustathius

                        There's a fundamental difference. Evstafiy hit the target accidentally with a sighting shot, and then mistakenly fired at the wrong distance.
                        The Japanese, however, opened fire with their 12-inch guns at a range already determined by the sighting of their 6-inch guns. This meant that a miss could have occurred either due to a gunner's error or due to a sudden change in range, course, wind, etc.
                      9. +1
                        Yesterday, 21: 13
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The 280mm coastal battery of the Oscarborg fortress, based on the "Blücher", in 1940.

                        Uhm... Let me clarify. So, the firing of 280mm coastal guns, firing a whopping TWO shots from a range of less than 500 meters at a ship moving at low speed (7 knots), is considered a naval battle? :))))
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Please provide a representative sample of such cases.

                        Both battles with the Black Sea battleships Goeben, the Battle of Jutland, where, for example, Derfflinger demonstrated very high accuracy against Invincible, and so on and so forth.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        There's a fundamental difference. Evstafiy hit the target accidentally with a sighting shot, and then mistakenly fired at the wrong distance.

                        And the Japanese never made a mistake during the entire battle. Never, not even once:)))))
                      10. -1
                        Yesterday, 21: 22
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Both battles with Goeben of the Black Sea battleships

                        The Battle of Cape Sarych was the first, but what was the second? Where did the first salvo hit?
                        Derflinger demonstrated very high accuracy in Invincible

                        There is no 100% data on this case.
                        and other and other

                        So far, apart from the battle at Cape Sarych, there is nothing else.
                        never made mistakes

                        They were wrong...
          2. -1
            10 February 2026 19: 28
            I can't remember which of the "Borodinets" they banked before leaving Kronstadt, when it wasn't fully loaded yet, but the normal VI was about 15. But once it was fully loaded, they didn't risk banking it anymore.
    4. +1
      3 February 2026 16: 15
      40 mm anti-mine armor bulkhead

      The PMP was not armored, but was made from ordinary shipbuilding steel.
      1. +1
        3 February 2026 16: 18
        anti-mine bulkheads and, possibly, the deck connecting them

        No "maybes", but absolutely definitely.
        1. 0
          3 February 2026 16: 23
          The fact that the French battleship was 400 (to be precise, 407) tons heavier

          No, only for 202 English tons, because the table uses different units of measurement: tons and English tons.
          1. +1
            3 February 2026 16: 27
            the modernization limit of the Peresvet project was actually exhausted somewhere at Pobeda

            No, it's just that Russia couldn't design modern crane manipulators, so they had to order an addition to the modern crane manipulator in the form of an armadillo.
            1. 0
              3 February 2026 16: 30
              In general, it can be stated that the advantages of the battleship project presented by the French for the “needs of the Far East” over domestic developments are not connected with the backwardness of the Russian design school.

              It is precisely directly related to backwardness.
              1. +1
                3 February 2026 16: 47
                The Peresvet... had a deck of shipbuilding steel of a certain thickness, up to 12,7 mm, on top of which armor plates were laid. It can be assumed that the deck was considered part of the hull's mass, and the armor plates laid on it were considered part of the armor. That is, without the deck armor, the Peresvet's hull still had decks: the Tsarevich's 769,9-ton weight includes the anti-mine bulkheads and the entire deck—removing this would leave one of the decks missing entirely. Therefore, a direct comparison would be invalid.

                To make it more correct, you need to subtract the weight of 27,3 mm of the plating (leaving 12,7 mm of plating) weighing 525 tons from the 40 mm of the plating of 770 tons, which must then be subtracted from the weight of the hull of 5125 tons - the result will be 4600 tons or 35,1% of the normal displacement.
            2. 0
              3 February 2026 21: 36
              We've purchased crane manipulators separately, and more than once. So, there wasn't much need for them.
              1. +1
                4 February 2026 06: 07
                Quote: TermNachTER
                We've purchased crane manipulators separately, and more than once. So, there wasn't much need for them.

                Of course, they were bought and could have been bought for the New Peresvets, but Tses's project is very beautiful, so they combined the useful with the pleasant.
                1. 0
                  4 February 2026 12: 00
                  "Beautiful" isn't a military or naval concept. It would be better if it were effective. The "Tsesarevich" isn't bad overall, though it's not without its flaws. Then again, everyone has their flaws. And then there's the construction time—it's generally accepted that construction in Europe and the Americas was fast and high-quality.
                  1. +1
                    4 February 2026 16: 14
                    "Beautiful" isn't a military or naval concept. It would be better if it were effective.

                    Beautiful, in this case not in appearance (which some may not like), but in the beauty of the interior architecture, which ensures efficiency with minimal displacement.
                    1. +2
                      4 February 2026 20: 47
                      A rather controversial design. Multiple turrets are complex and expensive. The ability to concentrate fire from the hull forward and aft didn't really work. Casemate battleships fought the entire Russian Navy without any particular problems. The torpedo bulkhead and the lack of a deck slope, like on the Bayan, are controversial. I see the Potemkin as the optimal design for the Russian Navy.
                      1. +2
                        4 February 2026 21: 14
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Torpedo bulkhead

                        If the Retvizan had had an anti-torpedo bulkhead, then most likely the 120 mm shell that hit the submarine's main bulkhead before the battle would not have caused such extensive flooding.
                      2. +1
                        5 February 2026 09: 25
                        I've always wondered why a 120mm shell hit caused such extensive flooding. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any clear drawings or descriptions of what was damaged or how, to draw any conclusions.
                      3. +2
                        5 February 2026 11: 54
                        Quote: rytik32
                        If the Retvizan had had an anti-torpedo bulkhead, then most likely the 120 mm shell that hit the submarine's main bulkhead before the battle would not have caused such extensive flooding.

                        The torpedo bulkhead was indeed a very useful addition (along with the Tsesar), but if the Kramp specifications hadn't imposed such strict weight restrictions (12,400 tons), and had instead been given the same 12,700 tons, with 200-300 tons allowed, he would have extended the armor belt to the ends, and could have made the upper armor belt continuous. As it was, he did seem to armor the ends, but only against fragments and light projectiles.
                        The problem with the dissatisfaction with his design may be (and Andrey noted this in the previous article) that Kramp simply didn't have the design on hand at the time on which he proposed building the Retvizan. He simply didn't take it (the casemate design) with him, so he was basically "demonstrating" with sketches and fingers. But apparently he managed to convince the admiral-general and, taking the Potemkin design with him, left for Florida to urgently prepare the design and lay down the keel of the Retvizan. The Russian Empire was running out of time at the time. We were two years behind the Japanese in laying down ships. That's a lot.
                        If the Admiralty had insisted on building casemate battleships and had handed Lagan the Potemkin casemate battery design, he would have built an equally beautiful and sophisticated ship, but faster and to our specifications. And the battleships for the Russian Navy would have been completed on time.
                      4. 0
                        7 February 2026 19: 42
                        Where did that shell even hit? The destruction was like a 12-inch one.
                      5. +2
                        7 February 2026 20: 58
                        Where did this shell hit anyway?

                        Under the armor belt opposite the bow turret.
                      6. +2
                        5 February 2026 16: 32
                        Quite a controversial design.

                        Everything is subordinated to minimizing displacement, and therefore cost.
                        There are certainly some drawbacks. The Tses is less well-armored from the forward main battery magazines to the aft. The Retvizan has a 2" armor slope on a 1" steel backing behind the 9" belt, while the Tses has 250mm just along the upper edge of the lower main deck, half a meter below. It's 225mm thick, and beyond that, two 20mm curves between the PM and the lower deck are made of ordinary steel. Behind the upper main deck (maximum thickness 200mm), the turret wells are completely unarmored, which is also very dangerous.
                      7. 0
                        5 February 2026 17: 15
                        The Japanese didn't bother with the VI, ordering four EBMs to the maximum. Again, the well-armored Potemkin ended up weighing 12,700 tons, taking into account the overload, while the Tsarevich weighed 13,100 tons, with a less-than-ideal armor scheme.
                      8. +2
                        5 February 2026 17: 57
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The well-armored Potemkin turned out to be 12,700, taking into account the construction overload

                        That's why, according to the experience of the Russian Navy, the ends of a "well-armored ship" had to be armored, even though armor was absent as a class.
                      9. 0
                        5 February 2026 18: 43
                        Many battleships had heavily armored ends? Did 51mm of armor significantly improve the situation?
                      10. +2
                        5 February 2026 19: 48
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Did 51mm of armor improve the situation much?

                        It could withstand medium-caliber land mines.
                      11. -2
                        5 February 2026 20: 27
                        The Goeben fired 280mm or 150mm of shells, which could easily penetrate the armor of its younger brother, the Evstafiy.
                      12. +3
                        5 February 2026 19: 26
                        The Potemkin wasn't "well armored." At least, not compared to the Tsarevich.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Did 51mm of armor improve the situation much?

                        Not so much on Retvizan.
                        The "Caesar" had between 180 and 140. And the "Potemkin" still couldn't be made into a good battleship.
                      13. 0
                        5 February 2026 20: 33
                        And how is the armor of the Caesar better than the Potemkin?
                      14. +1
                        6 February 2026 12: 06
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And how is the Caesar's armor better?

                        Everyone. Two full belts, against 60%.
                        "Potemkin" would have been good in the late 1980s and early 1990s. By the early 20th century, it was simply outdated. But for a deeply secondary theater and a decidedly weak opponent, it was still good enough.
                      15. 0
                        6 February 2026 13: 52
                        During the Battle of Cape Shantung, the armor on the ends of the ships was penetrated. Even if it wasn't, the plates were pressed into the plating, the framing was deformed, and the watertight integrity was compromised. Mechanisms located behind the armor were disabled. Unarmored superstructures housing the crew posts were also destroyed, as on the Potemkin.
                      16. 0
                        6 February 2026 08: 46
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        But you still can't make a good battleship out of the Potemkin

                        Even with increased displacement? belay
                      17. +2
                        6 February 2026 12: 07
                        Quote: Trapper7
                        Even with increased displacement?

                        If only Nikanor Ivanovich's lips were attached to Ivan Kuzmich's nose, and he'd acquired some of the same swagger as Balthazar Balthazarych...
                        It will turn out to be a completely different ship. request
                      18. -2
                        6 February 2026 13: 55
                        The Japanese Asahi-class battleships, with a single 102mm armor belt at the ends, fought through the entire war without any problems. They didn't really need the upper belt at the ends.
                      19. +1
                        6 February 2026 14: 24
                        You're a strange man, after all. You were comparing "Caesar" to "Potemkin," and then it suddenly turned out it was "Asahi"...
                        Is there nothing left in your memory at all?
                        What does the Asahi have to do with this, since, unlike both of them, it had a displacement of 15 tons and therefore completely different design solutions? Not to mention that 102mm of armor is still slightly more than twice as much as 51mm!
                        And he had these 4 inches there from the very beginning, but on Potemkin they appeared later.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        They somehow didn't need the upper belt at the ends.

                        Well, it wasn't exactly being bombarded with Japanese landmines. And even if that had happened, four inches would have been more reliable than two.
                      20. +1
                        6 February 2026 17: 58
                        What I'm getting at is that having an armor belt at the ends, especially a thin one, isn't a panacea. And how is the Asahi's armor scheme fundamentally different? We could take any other battleship from the early 20th century.
                      21. +3
                        7 February 2026 10: 00
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And how is the Asahi's booking scheme fundamentally different?

                        "Asahi" itself is fundamentally different from "Potemkin".
                        Therefore, the argument that if 102mm was enough for a 15000 ton ship, then 51mm would be quite enough for a 12000 ton ship is...f...some kind of surrealism!
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The 305mm armor-piercing shell penetrates the 200mm Krupp shell at 30 cables.

                        But in that war it never broke through))
                      22. -1
                        7 February 2026 11: 59
                        I didn't say that a 102mm shell is enough for some, and a 51mm shell for others. I said that those thin belts in the extremities are for self-assurance, not real protection. During the entire Russian Nuclear War, a 305mm shell never penetrated a 200mm Krupp plate? But what if you look closely?
                      23. +2
                        7 February 2026 12: 09
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        What if you look closely?

                        I knocked out a fuse in a defective stove once. It didn't fit inside intact, and there was no explosion behind the gas turbine.
                        The thickest plate conquered by our (as some claim, "the best in the world") armored shell was 178 mm thick.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I said that these thin belts in the limbs are for self-reassurance

                        And, as always, they were fundamentally wrong.
                        A 102mm plate (and certainly not a 51mm one) certainly wouldn't protect against 12" armor penetration. But there weren't many such guns on ships of the time.
                        But 4 inches of armor is quite good against medium-caliber high-explosive shells.
                        Therefore, armoring the ends is clearly and undeniably a major advantage. This makes the "Tsesarevich" project far superior to the "Potemkin." However, the French ship's advantages aren't limited to its armoring scheme.
                      24. 0
                        7 February 2026 12: 16
                        Do you have data on the Suvorov, Borodino, and Alexander III? When I wrote that a 305mm armor-piercing shell could penetrate 200mm of Krupp armor, I wasn't just talking about Japanese battleships. Thin belts at the ends were also present on British and other ships. Even without penetrating the armor, they deformed the plating, decks, and bulkheads, compromising watertight integrity and causing flooding in the damaged compartments.
                      25. +2
                        7 February 2026 16: 14
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Do you have information on "Suvorov", "Borodino", "Alexander III"?

                        No. What about you?
                        There is no court.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        When I was writing

                        I'm afraid you've already forgotten how the discussion began.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Even without penetrating the armor, it happened

                        Whatever happens after this is nothing compared to, quote, "a hole the size of a gate."
                      26. 0
                        7 February 2026 19: 34
                        1. That is, it is possible that there were breakthroughs, we just don’t know about it.
                        2. I remember how our discussion began: when I wrote "a 305mm armor-piercing shell can penetrate a 200mm Krupp shell," I wasn't referring to a Russian armor-piercing or Japanese battleship. These parameters are taken from navweaps.com. Battleships with thin belts at the ends fought in WWI and were hit by both 280mm and 305mm shells.
                        3. The quote about a "gate-sized hole" isn't mine, it's Andrey from Chelyabinsk. I was expressing my doubts, emphasizing the subjectivity of each individual's perception.
                      27. +2
                        8 February 2026 10: 53
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        That is, it is possible that there were breakthroughs.

                        If something exists, then its existence can be proven. If something doesn't exist, then it can neither be proven nor disproved.
                        Let's operate with facts, not assumptions.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I remember how our discussion began.

                        Unfortunately, we forgot. You asked: how is the "Tsesar"'s armor better than that of the "Potemkin"? I answered. But, as usual, you immediately diverted the discussion.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        These parameters are taken from navweaps.com.

                        This is what the naveaps actually says about Japanese 12" guns.
                        As far as can be determined, Japanese 12-inch (30,5 cm) shells did not penetrate any Russian armor thicker than 6 inches (15,2 cm) in any of the battles of this war. At the Battle of the Yellow Sea (the Battle of August 10, or the Battle of Shandong), the Japanese fired 279 armor-piercing shells, of which at least ten struck Russian armor, mostly in the turrets, and none penetrated it. At Tsushima (the Battle of the Sea of ​​Japan), the Russian battleship Oryol was hit in its 5,75-inch (15,8 cm) belt by a 12-inch (30,5 cm) shell, which failed to penetrate the armor. The greatest damage to the Russian ships was caused by explosive shells made from gunpowder in conventional shells, which caused massive fires in the upper fortifications.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Battleships with thin belts at the ends fought in WWI and were fired at by both 280mm and 305mm guns.

                        The guns had changed slightly. The 50-caliber, 12-inch gun easily pierced armor that its predecessor could only scratch.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        This is Andrey from Chelyabinsk.

                        No. This is from eyewitness testimony. If I remember correctly, in this case, it was Semenova.
                        But the point is not whether the troika will pass or not, but that even relatively weak armor can minimize damage.
                      28. -2
                        8 February 2026 15: 13
                        1. My experience as a cop tells me that anything is possible until proven otherwise. Can you prove that there were no penetrations of 200mm armor?
                        2. The Tsesar's armor is superior to the Potemkin's, only because the ship's undercarriage was never subjected to such fire, and we can only speculate. However, given that the Tsesar's main hits were on the superstructure, it's reasonable to assume the Potemkin would have sustained roughly the same damage.
                        3. Again, the phrase "as far as can be judged" applies. Regarding the Battle of the Yellow Sea, we can still judge, since the ships returned to port and their damage could be examined. Regarding Tsushima, we can only guess.
                        4. So the problem isn't the capabilities of the new 305mm, but the thin and narrow belt. The old one could penetrate a 102mm belt.
                        5. Sometimes, no armor is better than weak armor. This has happened more than once in the Russian Nuclear Forces: a shell would penetrate the hull and fail to detonate, or detonate outside the hull. Minimal armor would have been perfect.
                      29. +2
                        8 February 2026 16: 35
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        My experience as a cop says - until proven otherwise

                        So that people like you don't act out of control, the "presumption of innocence" was invented.
                        I don't have to prove anything to you. You made the claim, so the burden of proof is on you.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The CPT has never been subjected to such shelling.

                        However, ships with the same armor scheme were subjected to it.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        As for Tsushima, we can only guess.

                        That is precisely why I propose to operate with facts, not speculation.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        So the problem is not in the capabilities of the new 305mm

                        And the fact is that there are not so many of them in the battles of the Russian Navy.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Sometimes, no armor is better than weak armor. This has happened more than once in the Russian Nuclear Forces, where a shell would penetrate the hull and fail to detonate, or detonate outside the hull.

                        The real problem is that you still don't understand the difference between the action of an armor-piercing shell and a high-explosive shell.
                        The Japanese primarily used high-explosive shells, against which even relatively thin armor was an order of magnitude better than no armor at all.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        My experience as a cop

                        And also experience as a long-distance sailor and radio telegraph operator...
                        recourse
                      30. -1
                        8 February 2026 17: 21
                        1. "Presumption of innocence" is not at all contrary to "until proven otherwise."
                        2. Which ships, with the armor scheme of the CPT, were subjected to such intense shelling?
                        3. State your facts regarding the death of the Suvorov in Tsushima, etc.
                        4. So back then, in all the fleets, there weren't that many 305mm guns, and there were still a couple of years left before the Dreadnought.
                        5. I'm starting to understand you no more. Either the Japanese 305mm armor-piercing shells couldn't penetrate the armor of the Russian battleships, or the Japanese mostly used high-explosive shells, which are useless against armor—you decide.
                        6. I didn’t stay as a radio operator for very long, as times were difficult.
                      31. +2
                        8 February 2026 18: 47
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I'm starting to understand you no more. The Japanese 305mm armor-piercing shells didn't penetrate the armor of the Russian battleships, and the Japanese mostly used high-explosive shells.

                        1) I didn't say that.
                        2) What is interesting is that these statements do not contradict each other.
                        3) I must admit that you know nothing and don't want to know anything about the Russo-Japanese War at sea...
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I didn't stay as a radio operator for very long

                        But this doesn't stop you from writing in the style of "you can't explain it to the smart ones"
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Which ships, with the armor scheme of the CPT, were subjected to such intense shelling?

                        Do you know which battleships took part in the Russian Yamal-Nenets Autonomous Region?
                        So maybe you should start with this...
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        State your facts regarding the death of the Suvorov in Tsushima.

                        1) The battleship was destroyed by a torpedo hit.
                        2) The source you referred to says in English on gray,
                        As far as can be determined, Japanese 12-inch (30,5 cm) shells did not penetrate any Russian armor thicker than 6 inches (15,2 cm) in any of the battles of this war. At the Battle of the Yellow Sea (the Battle of August 10, or the Battle of Shandong), the Japanese fired 279 armor-piercing shells, of which at least ten struck Russian armor, mostly in the turrets, and none penetrated it. At Tsushima (the Battle of the Sea of ​​Japan), the Russian battleship Oryol was hit in its 5,75-inch (15,8 cm) belt by a 12-inch (30,5 cm) shell, which failed to penetrate the armor.
                      32. 0
                        8 February 2026 19: 08
                        1. I don't claim to know everything about the RYAV. However, the armor scheme with thin and narrow belts at the extremities is a problem not only with the RYAV. This trend lasted for quite a long time and
                        not only in Russia and Japan.
                        2. Well, over the past couple of years I've seen and understood a few things)))
                        3. So you are speaking in riddles, instead of saying: "Such and such an EBR, having the same armor scheme as the KPT, received approximately the same number of hits, of approximately the same caliber."
                        4. What happened to the Suvorov before the torpedo hit, as well as to the Borodino and Alexander?
                      33. +1
                        8 February 2026 20: 06
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        "Such and such an EBR, having the same armor scheme as the KPT, received approximately the same number of hits, of approximately the same caliber."

                        And the comparison will be completely meaningless, since the papadanias are unlikely to fall in the same places.
                        So let's do it this way.
                        Here is the Peresvet, which received about 40 hits in the LM, 13 of which were 10-12" caliber, and its sister ship Oslyabya, whose fate was decided by 2-3 large-caliber hits to its completely unprotected bow.
                        So, we have two identical ships, but the first one somehow managed without a full belt, but the second one...
                        Do you think he'd find this, quote, "thin and narrow belt" useful? Or is it completely unnecessary, since "it's not a panacea"?
                      34. 0
                        8 February 2026 23: 03
                        You could say Peresvet was simply lucky, while Oslyabya wasn't. That's how it works in war. And we don't know how many hits it actually took. Then again, Oslyabya was overloaded, while Peresvet was underway. And the armor scheme of the entire Peresvet series is, to put it mildly, pathetic. The presence of a belt at the ends doesn't change the situation. The majority of hits at both Tsushima and the ZhM hit the superstructure. I don't know if the Japanese were aiming that way on purpose, or if it just happened.
                      35. 0
                        9 February 2026 11: 09
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Well, the armor scheme of the entire Peresvet series is, to put it mildly, worthless.

                        Yeah. CBT is basically the same.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        "Peresvet" was simply lucky, but "Oslyaba" was not.

                        Are you suggesting we build battleships in the hopes of success?
                        Well, well)))
                      36. 0
                        9 February 2026 11: 48
                        1. The KPT has a solid citadel, the Peresvets have solid holes in their armor.
                        2. I would suggest building ships based on the demands of the moment, and not some abstract designs.
                      37. 0
                        9 February 2026 13: 33
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The KPT has a solid citadel, the Peresvets have solid holes in their armor.

                        Both have citadel armor. The only thing they added to the citadel armor is thin armor on the extremities—the very same thing you consider unnecessary.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I would suggest building ships based on the demands of the moment

                        Just at this point, the citadel armor became obsolete.
                      38. 0
                        9 February 2026 16: 51
                        1. And what kind of citadel did the Peresvets have, compared to the KPTs? The KPTs added a belt to the extremities after the Russian Yamal-Nenets Autonomous Area Warfare, although they were useless before and after.
                        2. Is the citadel design outdated? And isn't the "all or nothing" armor design a citadel?
                      39. +1
                        10 February 2026 15: 06
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And what kind of citadel did the Peresvets have, if we compare them with the KPT?

                        So take a look. The pattern is the same.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        although there was no sense either before or after.

                        The 51mm isn't really much use. But it's still better than nothing. The Tsar's armor, however, is quite adequate.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And the "all or nothing" booking scheme - isn't it a citadel?

                        Are you talking about the battleship armor scheme after WWI?
                        Is there no difference in the conditions at all?
                      40. -1
                        10 February 2026 15: 15
                        1. I've already posted a comparison of the Peresvet and KPT armor schemes; you can take a look. Besides the 152mm casemates, the Peresvet has no citadel at all.
                        2. The Caesar's armor is adequate for what? It was simply lucky that during the battle in the LM, the majority of hits landed on the superstructure.
                        3. What's the difference? Armor's job is to stop enemy projectiles. What's changed since the Sino-Japanese War?
                      41. +2
                        10 February 2026 15: 47
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I have already posted a comparison of the armor schemes of the Peresvet and the KPT,

                        I don't remember that, but it doesn't matter.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Apart from the 152mm casemates, the Peresvet has no citadel at all.

                        Excuse me, are you sane? Maybe you should first find out what a citadel is? I was just quoting something to you.
                        the internal volume of a ship with its vital parts (engine and boiler rooms, ammunition magazines), protected by armor from artillery shells

                        The Citadel of the KPT and Peresvet is, in simple terms, an armored box. The main bulkhead, beams, and top are covered by an armored deck.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The Caesar's reservation is adequate for what?

                        Conditions of the Russian Nuclear Forces.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        What's the difference?

                        In projectiles, combat distance, etc.
                        Citadel armor was effective before rapid-fire medium-caliber artillery and high-explosive shells were available. The guns of the time rarely fired, and hit even less often, so it was sufficient to protect the citadel, which housed the control and magazines. This is no longer the case in the Russian Yavu. A hail of high-explosive shells could shatter the extremities without destroying the main armor. A thin armor belt mitigated this danger to some extent.
                        And so dreadnoughts emerged, and combat ranges increased again. Therefore, the "all or nothing" approach became relevant again, although it was very different from the one adopted in 1880. And it wasn't always used by everyone.
                        Something like that.
                      42. 0
                        10 February 2026 19: 02
                        For some reason, I always thought that the citadel was the entire central part of the ship protected by armor, including the casemates. But on the Peresvet, the casemates "hang" on the unarmored hull. Any shell exploding in an unarmored hull would cause deformation of the ship's structure, fires, and shrapnel could penetrate the casemate armor, which on the Peresvet was purely symbolic in the rear. And considering that the Peresvet's main armor protection was almost completely submerged due to structural overload, the citadel function was essentially a short, narrow 102mm belt, which offered little protection.
                        For some reason, in the Russian Navy, the hail of high-explosive shells mainly destroyed the armored superstructures, not the ends.
                        The all-or-nothing approach was adopted with the Queen Elizabeth and was used by all, with variations depending on the country and year of construction.
                      43. +3
                        11 February 2026 07: 55
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        For some reason, I always thought that the citadel was the entire central part of the ship protected by armor.

                        True. Peresvet and the KPT have more or less the same layout. A sort of rectangular armored box.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        including casemates.

                        But this is completely unnecessary. There are numerous examples where the armor of artillery casemates did not come into contact with the main gun.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        which protected from practically nothing.

                        We read Polomoshnov and learn that the vertical armor served its purpose. With a description of the hits and damage inflicted...
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        For some reason, in the Russian Navy, the hail of high-explosive shells mainly destroyed the armored superstructures, not the ends.

                        Wherever it hit, it destroyed. But the armored extremities generally served their purpose.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        All-or-nothing scheme

                        The "all or nothing" approach of the dreadnought era was quite different from the citadel armor of the 1880s. And it also changed significantly by WWII.
                      44. 0
                        6 February 2026 14: 50
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        with one armor belt at the ends of 102 mm

                        102 mm wasn't much at all. A little further from the bow or stern, it was 140 mm.
                      45. 0
                        6 February 2026 18: 04
                        The 305mm armor-piercing shell penetrates the 200mm Krupp shell at 30 cables.
                      46. +1
                        7 February 2026 21: 49
                        Let's start with the fact that in the Russian Nuclear Forces, neither side planned to use armor-piercing shells at a range of 30 cables. And they certainly didn't plan to hit the extremities with them.
                      47. 0
                        7 February 2026 23: 46
                        With the aiming methods and fire control techniques of the time, who was going to hit with an accuracy of +- 20 meters at a distance of 30 cables?
                      48. +1
                        9 February 2026 10: 59
                        Of course I was. Below is a calculation of the range from which a shell would hit, if aimed at the bow and without adjusting for speed. But the Japanese did adjust for this:
                        at your own speed,
                        at the speed of the enemy,
                        into the wind
                      49. -1
                        9 February 2026 11: 43
                        To hit a 20 x 20 meter target at a distance of 5,5 kilometers, you need the appropriate PUAO. What kind of PUAO did the Japanese have? Rangefinders and perhaps, theoretically, the first, not very accurate, Dumaresq. In such a scenario, hitting a 120 meter target is already good.
                      50. +2
                        9 February 2026 11: 52
                        it is necessary to have the appropriate PUAO

                        The PUAO had nothing to do with it. The Poltava hit the Yakumo from approximately 14 km (certainly no less). Moreover, the Poltava had neither a PUAO nor rangefinders capable of operating at such a distance.
                        To get in, you had to:
                        1. Enter the correct barrel elevation angle.
                        2. Enter the correct horizontal aiming correction.
                        3. Aim accurately at the target.
                        4. Fire at the right moment.
                        PP. 1 and 2 can be obtained by sighting in, but you need to know how
                        PP. 3 and 4 are 100% gunner skills.
                      51. +2
                        9 February 2026 12: 02
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Poltava" from about 14 km (certainly not less) hit "Yakumo"

                        Essen thought it was 40 cables. And Abo fired a 152mm shell from 13000 yards. wassat
                      52. 0
                        9 February 2026 12: 05
                        The Yakumo commander's database is a more reliable source, and that's what I'm focusing on.
                      53. +2
                        9 February 2026 12: 20
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The Yakumo commander's database is a more reliable source.

                        Maybe so, maybe not. In this case, since ours were the ones involved, we have more faith in their distances than in the Japanese ones.
                      54. +1
                        9 February 2026 12: 32
                        Simply put, when there are contradictory statements, you need compelling evidence to declare one of them to be true. The fact that one of them is recorded in the database is not.
                      55. 0
                        9 February 2026 17: 54
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You need compelling evidence to declare one of them true. The fact that one of them is recorded in the database is not.

                        In this case, it is enough to look at the dates of the documents.
                        I just looked at Dev's report—he also says 14 km. Later, I'll look at the reports from the ships that were in the Yakumo's wake.
                      56. +1
                        9 February 2026 18: 09
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I just looked at Dev's report - he also writes about 14 km.

                        Between whom and by whom?
                      57. 0
                        9 February 2026 18: 22
                        Between the 3rd detachment, led by "Yakumo" with Dewa, and the main forces of the enemy
                      58. +1
                        9 February 2026 18: 48
                        But the main forces are a very elastic concept (in a wake column) It’s a pity if the ship is not indicated
                        One more question, if I may. According to BD and Deva, the projectile was 12 inches? I'm just curious how Abo got it to be 6 inches.
                      59. 0
                        9 February 2026 20: 05
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        According to BD and Deva, the projectile was 12 dm?

                        Deva has 6 dm, like Abo, and like in BD Yakumo.
                      60. +2
                        9 February 2026 20: 11
                        From the Dev DB
                        On the cruiser Yakumo, a single enemy 6-inch shell struck the coal hatch on the upper deck, slightly aft of the port for the 6-inch No. 5 gun. Penetrating the middle deck, the shell exploded, causing significant damage to the coal hose, the bulkhead of the non-commissioned officers' (conductors') mess room, and other nearby structures. Large fragments penetrated the middle deck: one struck the fifth compartment of the lower deck, another the coal pit, but caused no damage in these areas. Three fragments also penetrated the bottom of the boat, creating three small holes.

                        The extent of damage is too severe for a 6-inch shell.

                        I haven't translated the damage from Yakumo's database yet.
                      61. +2
                        9 February 2026 20: 52
                        So, we have a clear contradiction: it's unlikely the Japanese thought a 6-inch shell could hit them at 14 km. A 6-inch gun doesn't shoot that far.
                      62. -1
                        9 February 2026 20: 57
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        As a result, we have an obvious

                        This is not a contradiction. The Japanese did not know the range of the Russian 6-inch guns.
                      63. +2
                        9 February 2026 22: 23
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The Japanese did not know the range of the Russian 6-inch guns.

                        And did you seriously think that they could shoot at 14 km? :)))) This is fantastic
                      64. 0
                        9 February 2026 22: 35
                        It is fantastic

                        Why so?
                        This is not 24 km...
                        The angle of ascent is greater or the charge is more powerful and the range will be 14 km
                      65. +2
                        10 February 2026 07: 02
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Why so?

                        First, the Japanese 6-inch battleships fired at 55 cable lengths. And they had no reason to assume that our guns of the same caliber fired further.
                        Second, the Japanese never encountered a situation where our 6-inch guns fired further. For example, at long range in the first phase, our 6-inch guns didn't fire, just like the Japanese; the 12-inch guns did the fighting. What was the point of not firing the 6-inch guns if the range allowed it? And the same was true for a number of clashes at Port Arthur.
                      66. -1
                        10 February 2026 09: 41
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And they had no reason to believe that our guns of the same caliber could fire further.

                        The reasons were:
                        1. Barrel length.
                        2. Charge of gunpowder.
                        3. Angle of ascent.
                        We haven't encountered a situation where our 6-inch guns would shoot further.

                        In the battle near Port Arthur, Togo was afraid of the coastal 6-inch guns.
                      67. +2
                        10 February 2026 09: 58
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The reasons were:
                        1. Barrel length.
                        2. Charge of gunpowder.
                        3. Angle of ascent.

                        These aren't grounds. These are parameters that, in theory, could have given a 6-inch range of 14 km. But neither Togo nor Dewa, nor any of the Japanese sailors, had any reason to assume such a range. On the contrary, there was every reason to believe it was impossible.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        In the battle near Port Arthur, Togo was afraid of the coastal 6-inch guns.

                        I think you're mistaken; he feared coastal artillery in general, not the 6-inch gun. But if I'm wrong, it's unlikely anyone would have expected coastal artillery on Russian ships.
                      68. 0
                        10 February 2026 11: 58
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Neither Togo nor Deva, nor any of the Japanese sailors, had any reason to assume such a range.

                        If your understanding of the basis is some kind of order or instruction, then I also have not come across documents that would indicate the range of Russian 6-inch shells.
                        Therefore, yes, there was no reason to consider a distance of 14 km as inaccessible for 6-inch Russian guns.
                      69. +1
                        10 February 2026 12: 47
                        Quote: rytik32
                        If in your understanding the basis is some kind of order or instruction

                        In my understanding, in this case, the basis is a fact or logical reasoning that allows the Japanese to make an educated guess about the firing range of the Russian 6-inch gun.
                        If we assume that they did not have intelligence data (all that was needed was to know the maximum vertical aiming angle, since the other parameters could not differ much from the Japanese 6-inch) and that the Japanese, when choosing between Armstrong and Kane, did not pay attention to the performance characteristics of the latter, then practice remains.
                        But experience shows that Japanese guns don't fire anywhere near 14 kilometers; 55 cable lengths is roughly 10 kilometers. And they never saw Russian naval guns fire beyond 10 kilometers.
                        Accordingly, there is no reason to assume that Russian guns have an extremely long range.
                        By the way, I haven't even mentioned the lightweight projectiles, which should have a shorter maximum range. We also believe the Japanese didn't know about this.
                      70. 0
                        10 February 2026 18: 00
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But practice shows that Japanese guns don’t fire at 14 km and even close, 55 cables is roughly 10 km

                        From the Yakumo database:
                        6:00
                        At a distance of 11,000 m, they opened fire on the Poltava from the 8-inch bow guns.
                        At a range of 9,000 to 12,000, the 6-inch guns opened slow fire and concentrated it on this ship.


                        Translated by the Kasagi database. It's gotten more interesting.
                        At 15:46 they shifted slightly to the left and, following the example of the Yakumo, opened fire with 8-inch guns. The range was about 10 thousands.
                      71. 0
                        10 February 2026 18: 19
                        So there's no contradiction? The Japs could definitely shoot at 10 meters (not yards?)
                      72. 0
                        10 February 2026 20: 13
                        Yakumo writes 13,5-14 km, while Kasagi, following in his wake, writes about 10 km. The spread is too wide. But they were firing only from 8-inch guns.
                        From our side, it is not even clear whether they opened fire from 6-inch guns, and this would clarify a lot.
                      73. 0
                        10 February 2026 23: 16
                        The Japs could definitely shoot at 10 meters (not yards?)

                        Yards (9140m) at 20 degrees. Range (according to the rangefinder?)) they could write all sorts of things. But hits?
                      74. +1
                        10 February 2026 23: 01
                        They had never seen Russian naval guns fire further than 10 km.

                        Yes, and in the Russian Empire, the Russian 6" guns theoretically COULD shoot up to 11,5 km at the maximum possible elevation angle of 20 degrees (Bayan 25). Possibly even without breaking the elevation arcs.)) But to hit from such a distance...
                        Dear Andrey, I have no doubt that it was 12", and the distance... Probably the Japanese defined it as 6" because of the weak explosive charge of the Russian shells- if This is a 12" high-explosive shell, so 10 kg of pyroxylin (or even gunpowder) - this is closer to a Japanese 6" shell (700 m/s - thinner wall) - 5,2 kg of shimoza. There is no comparison with a Russian 6" high-explosive shell (2,7 kg of something). And esteemed Alexey himself noted that for a 6" (Russian) shell the damage is too extensive.
                      75. +2
                        10 February 2026 16: 04
                        This is not a contradiction. The Japanese did not know the range of the Russian 6-inch guns.

                        Canet's 6"/45 guns, with their mounts, were "freely available" in the early 1890s. Naturally, their firing range was known worldwide. It was 2,5 kilometers, less than 14 kilometers.
                      76. 0
                        10 February 2026 17: 25
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Naturally, the firing range was known to the whole world

                        You are confusing something.
                        The firing table below covers a range of up to 77 kb.
                      77. +2
                        10 February 2026 18: 20
                        Alexey, you're confused. Why are you looking at tables from 1908?
                      78. 0
                        10 February 2026 20: 10
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Why look at the 1908 tables?

                        The 1908 tables are more or less accurate at distances of 50+ cables, unlike earlier ones.
                        That is, a 6-inch cannon could hit at 77 kab = 14,260 meters with a standard projectile at a standard muzzle velocity.
                      79. +1
                        10 February 2026 20: 11
                        At what elevation angle? :))
                      80. 0
                        10 February 2026 20: 15
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        At what elevation angle? :))

                        Very big )))
                      81. +2
                        10 February 2026 21: 37
                        That's exactly what I'm talking about:)))) This table has nothing to do with the Russian language.
                      82. +2
                        11 February 2026 11: 02
                        Good afternoon.
                        That is, a 6-inch cannon could hit at 77 kab = 14,260 meters with a standard projectile at a standard muzzle velocity.

                        Dear Alexey, I will write down the French test data, but it is necessary to take into account the weight of the projectile and charge.
                        6-inch gun, 45 calibers, projectile weight 40 kg, propellant weight 9 kg. Elevation angle of 15 degrees, maximum range 9200 meters. Elevation angle of 20 degrees, maximum range 10500 meters. Elevation angle of 35 degrees, maximum range 12990 meters.
                      83. +1
                        11 February 2026 02: 07
                        You are confusing something.

                        You are confusing the theoretical TC with the actual elevation angle of 6"/45 of a gun on a Kane mount from the early 1890s.
                      84. +1
                        11 February 2026 08: 33
                        I don't think it's theoretical; apparently, after the Russian Nuclear War, the Kane elevation angle was increased, at least for shore-based installations. But I'm not sure they did the same with naval installations, and even if they did, it was definitely after the Russian Nuclear War.
                      85. 0
                        Yesterday, 03: 14
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I don't think it's theoretical; apparently, after the Russian Nuclear War, the Kane elevation angle was increased, at least for shore-based installations. But I'm not sure they did the same with naval installations, and even if they did, it was definitely after the Russian Nuclear War.

                        On coastal mounts, initially, the elevation angle was 25 degrees, versus 20 degrees on naval gun mounts.
                        After the Russian Navy, Russian-designed naval rigs appeared, where the elevation angle was also increased compared to the Kane rigs.
                        All TS are theoretical, so they may be at a distance that is not achievable during their development, so to speak, in the future development of new machines.
                        This table was verified with actual data - test shooting at three distances.
                      86. 0
                        11 February 2026 11: 03
                        Could the Japanese be sure that the elevation angle was no more than 20 degrees?
                        Know the exact initial velocity and weight of the projectile?
                        From what source?
                      87. +1
                        11 February 2026 11: 16
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Could the Japanese be sure that the elevation angle was no more than 20 degrees?

                        They very well could have. Firstly, they should have studied similar models when choosing artillery and known the Canet's elevation angle; secondly, they could have looked at our own ships before the war; we had plenty of opportunities to do so; thirdly, and most importantly, they themselves fired roughly at 10 km and didn't see us firing further.
                        I repeat, they had no reason to believe that our 6 inch cannons shoot almost 40% further.
                        In fact, all this shows that the DB is not an infallible source.
                        I think the Japanese had as many flaws in their documents as we did.
                      88. 0
                        11 February 2026 13: 44
                        and know the elevation angle of Kane

                        It's not just a question of elevation. Dear Igor, the data below shows that the projectile and charge weights differed.
                        we could look at our own ships

                        The openly standing guns could be seen, but the turrets could not.
                        They themselves shot roughly at 10 km and didn't see that we were shooting further.

                        The fight in ZhM is the first battle at such long distances (10+ km).
                        The database is not an infallible source.

                        Naturally, everyone makes mistakes. But Japanese databases were written several days after the battle, and that's a definite plus.
                      89. 0
                        11 February 2026 14: 17
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Dear Igor, the data below shows that the mass of the projectile and the charge were different.

                        True, but these factors had little impact. Simply put, a projectile, leaving the barrel, possesses a certain propellant force. Using a heavier projectile would require a lower propellant charge to prevent the barrel pressure from rising above normal; using a lighter projectile would, conversely, increase the velocity. But the gun's propellant force would be roughly the same regardless of the projectile; changes were only possible due to the barrel's lifespan. In other words, the determining factor was the maximum permissible bore pressure, and it wasn't very different between our and Japanese guns.
                        It would have been possible to increase manpower by using more modern materials in the manufacture of the gun, but before the Russian Yamal-Nenets Autonomous Area, ours had not had a breakthrough in this area.
                        Therefore, the weight of the projectile and the charge cannot directly significantly increase the range with the same barrel.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The openly standing guns could be seen, but the turrets could not.

                        Expect some deviations from the deck installations there too.
                        Increasing the angle of attack complicates and increases the cost of the gun mount, but why bother? If we were to consider, say, firing at the shore at long ranges, then the angles on deck mounts would also be increased.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        But Japanese BDs were written several days after the battle, and this is their clear advantage.

                        This is undoubtedly true.
                      90. 0
                        11 February 2026 14: 24
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But the manpower of the gun will be approximately the same with any projectile.

                        No. The Japanese were also limited by the thin shell walls of their high-explosive shells and the shimoza shell. That's why they reduced the muzzle velocity compared to the original. The Japanese conducted a series of experiments on this topic before the war and even after the battle in ZhM. They suspected that the explosions were caused by cracks in the shells, but their suspicions were not confirmed.
                        and why?

                        Do you remember the elevation angle of the Peresvet main battery guns?
                      91. 0
                        11 February 2026 19: 05
                        Quote: rytik32
                        No. The Japanese were also limited by the thin walls of the high-explosive shell and the shimoza.

                        Below 55 cables?:))))
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Do you remember the elevation angle of the Peresvet main battery guns?

                        I remember and answered this.
                      92. 0
                        Yesterday, 17: 48
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Below 55 cables?:))))

                        I'm talking about the initial speed limit.
                        I don't know the final range myself. I know that the Japanese calculated their firing tables using the Krupp formula, and that these tables sometimes diverged from the actual range even at modest distances of 4-5-6 km.
                      93. 0
                        11 February 2026 14: 51
                        Good afternoon.
                        That is, the determining factor was the maximum permissible pressure in the barrel bore, and it did not differ much between our and Japanese guns.

                        Dear Andrey, the French tested Canet barrels at a pressure of 3000-3500 atm, with 2200-2400 considered "operational," and projectile velocity up to 800 m/s, with a boosted charge reaching 880 m/s. However, barrel wear must be taken into account.
                      94. 0
                        11 February 2026 16: 37
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Could the Japanese be sure that the elevation angle was no more than 20 degrees?
                        Know the exact initial velocity and weight of the projectile?
                        From what source?

                        The French navy did not have a 5,9-6" caliber; such guns were offered for sale abroad and, accordingly, their characteristics should have been known to potential buyers from the company's advertising brochures and reference books of the time.
                      95. 0
                        9 February 2026 12: 43
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        because ours got there

                        Did Essen notice this hit?
                        there is more faith in their distances

                        Look at the date of Essen's "description"
                      96. +2
                        9 February 2026 13: 48
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Did Essen notice this hit?

                        Essen noticed the discovery of fire:)))
                        A memorable event, the resumption of the fight after a break.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Look at the date of Essen's "description"

                        I look at the date of the document published in the official history. It's hard to believe Essen didn't write a report after the battle.
                        Well, taking into account the firing range of the 12-inch Poltava and Sevastopol, we can assume that they would open fire at 14 km...
                      97. 0
                        9 February 2026 12: 51
                        Once a year, even an unloaded gun fires. This example is a clear indication that I was simply lucky. Again, Essen gives a range of 40 cables, i.e., 7,5 km, not 14.
                        To perform p.p. 1,2,3 - you need to know VIR and VIP, and for this you need PUAO.
                      98. 0
                        9 February 2026 12: 58
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Essen gives distance

                        Yeah, a year after the battle. laughing
                        7,5 km

                        After that hit, Yakumo fired three shots from its bow turret at maximum elevation—all of them fell short. That is, they were definitely not 40 cables.
                        know VIR and VIP

                        If they are small, then they can be ignored.
                      99. +1
                        9 February 2026 16: 42
                        1. Did Essen suffer from multiple sclerosis? He didn't take so many hits that he'd forget them all.
                        2. The 203mm Yakumo has a maximum range at a maximum elevation of 18 km. If it fell short, what was the range?
                        3. If you don’t take them into account, you might not get there.
                      100. 0
                        9 February 2026 16: 54
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Did Essen suffer from sclerosis?

                        Do you remember well the events that happened a year ago?
                        I highly doubt that Essen kept all the battle distances in his memory for a whole year.
                        203mm Yakumo maximum range at maximum elevation is 18 km

                        At what angle and what initial speed?
                        If you don't take them into account, you might not get in.

                        That's understandable. But Yakumo didn't maneuver, which means the VIR and VIP were small and constant.
                      101. 0
                        9 February 2026 17: 06
                        1. If the Poltava scored two or three hits during the entire battle, it's not hard to remember. Especially since this is a source of professional pride for Essen as the ship's commander.
                        2. Data from navweaps, maximum range - 113 kg projectile, elevation angle 30 degrees - 19,700 yards (18 km)
                        3. "Yakumo" wasn't standing still. It was moving at a certain speed, on a certain course, and "Poltava" was moving too, meaning the VIP and VIR were constantly changing.
                        That's why I'm talking about the "Dumaresq." The Japanese had incredibly good shooting accuracy, and the explanation that it was due to the gunners' good training doesn't convince me personally. Especially at ranges of 40 cables and beyond.
                      102. +2
                        9 February 2026 17: 13
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        1. If Poltava scored two or three hits during the entire battle, then it’s not difficult to remember

                        Essen was on the Sevastopol
                        Data from navweaps, maximum range - 113 kg projectile, elevation angle 30 degrees - 19,700 yards (18 km)

                        clearly not that
                        Especially at distances from 40 cables and further

                        Such distances were extremely rare in the Battle of Tsushima. They were encountered more frequently in the ZhM battle, but there was no phenomenal accuracy there.
                      103. 0
                        9 February 2026 17: 31
                        Let it be "Sevastopol", but it is so important that the artillery was the same.
                        Believe it or not, data from navweaps. Post-battle reports (of criminal arrests) can be very interesting. I once tried to compare the maneuvering of ships during a battle in the Java Sea. There are three books – Hari, Crozet, and I forgot the American author. It feels like three different battles, not just one. Even the times don't match, even though the chart rooms had chronometers, not the Chinese-made ones.
                        But the hit percentage was also quite acceptable.
                      104. 0
                        9 February 2026 16: 08
                        Well, they decided to save money here. And they limited the size of ships.
                      105. 0
                        9 February 2026 17: 07
                        Everyone, even the wealthy English, tried to limit the size of their ships. Because of the cost.
                      106. +1
                        10 February 2026 13: 26
                        Thanks for the clarification.
                        Here we have set a ceiling of 13500 for battleships. Almost like a law.
                        I don't recall anything like that among the British at that time. They were looking after small cruisers. They needed a lot of them. Armored cruisers were all huge. Well over 10000 tons. Ironclads were 15,000 tons and above. The King Edwards, and they were all built before the Russo-Japanese War, were over 17000 tons. And then it was the same thing.
                        Japanese=English.
                        So we shouldn't be surprised that our ships were inferior in the same characteristics. We should have built what we planned, not indulged in fantasy. The Borodinos, for example, were actually 15000 tons in a hull designed for 13500 tons. No money? Then don't provoke a war.
                        "Cutting leads to getting into trouble" (c).
                      107. 0
                        10 February 2026 14: 28
                        The ceiling was set, but in the end, the "Borodinites" significantly exceeded it due to construction overload. The British also limited the size of their ships for cost reasons. The British may have wanted to limit the size of their armored cruisers, but speed (propulsion size) and range (fuel reserves) had their say—there was no escape from large size.
                        All pre-dreadnoughts reached 15-17 thousand VI before WWI, including the Russian ones, with the exception of "Evstafiy" and "Ioann", but they have their own specifics.
                        There was money, if it had been used wisely, and not on all sorts of nonsense like Dalniy.
            3. 0
              7 February 2026 20: 59
              Russia's main aircraft produced 15600 horsepower during testing, which is quite comparable to contemporary foreign aircraft.
              1. +2
                8 February 2026 10: 55
                Quote: Vik_Vik
                Russia's main aircraft produced 15600 horsepower during testing, which is quite comparable to contemporary foreign aircraft.

                That's true. But there's also the issue of size. The Rossiya's vehicles didn't fit under the armored deck, so a massive glacis had to be built.
          2. 0
            3 February 2026 20: 04
            Quote: Jura 27
            No, only in 202 English.t.,

            Yura, how did you reach 202 tons?
            1. +2
              4 February 2026 06: 05
              Yura, how did you reach 202 tons?

              This is the difference between two displacements in the same units of measurement - English tons 12902 English tons (Ces) - 12700 English tons (Peresvet) = 202 English tons.
              And 13107t is the displacement of the Tses in metric tons (adopted in France and Germany).
              1. +1
                4 February 2026 20: 42
                Quote: Jura 27
                This is the difference between two displacements in the same units of measurement - English tons 12902 English tons (Ces) - 12700 English tons (Peresvet) = 202 English tons.

                I understand your logic, but 12,700 is metric tons, not imperial tons. The program the Ministry of Transport developed for the French, based on 12,900 imperial tons, stated that the 300-ton excess displacement was to be used to strengthen watertight structures and to provide a reserve displacement of 200 imperial tons. So, if 12,700 tons were imperial tons, then there couldn't have been an excess of 300 imperial tons for a 12,900-ton battleship.
                Yes, I haven’t seen the program personally, and yes, I’m writing from hearsay, but Kudryavsky really did sift through a huge amount of archival documents.
                1. +1
                  5 February 2026 06: 58
                  That is, if 12,700 tons were English

                  In Russia at that time, tons were measured in English, but the French had to convert everything into metric units, since that was what they used.
                  I didn't understand about 300t - where is it at Kudryavsky's?
                  1. +1
                    5 February 2026 18: 06
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    I didn't understand about 300t - where is it at Kudryavsky's?

                    Page 47 of the first volume of "Borodino." It's the same in Alexander's first volume, although the page is different.
                    1. 0
                      6 February 2026 06: 58
                      I need to look at the context, I don’t have Kudryavsky’s book, but 300 thousand is neither here nor there.
                      1. +4
                        6 February 2026 10: 11
                        Yura, today is my birthday, but tomorrow I'll definitely quote you a passage. Let's discuss it.
                      2. +2
                        6 February 2026 10: 16
                        Good afternoon.
                        Dear Andrey, congratulations, I wish you health, success, and less work and a higher salary. drinks hi
                      3. +2
                        7 February 2026 09: 40
                        Thank you very much, dear Igor!
                      4. +4
                        6 February 2026 11: 52
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Today is my birthday
                      5. +1
                        7 February 2026 09: 40
                        Thank you, dear Ivan!
                      6. +1
                        6 February 2026 12: 49
                        Andrey Nikolaevich! You were born on a very special day – my mother-in-law's birthday! Congratulations! drinks
                        And I wish you and all your loved ones further creative success and good health!
                      7. +2
                        7 February 2026 09: 39
                        Quote: Trapper7
                        Andrey Nikolaevich! You were born on a very significant day – my mother-in-law's birthday!

                        This is how I distinguished myself laughing drinks
                        Thank you very much:)))))
                      8. +4
                        6 February 2026 14: 51
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Today is my birthday,

                        Andrey, happy birthday!
                        I wish you creative success!
                      9. +1
                        7 February 2026 09: 39
                        Thank you very much, dear Alexey! hi
                      10. +2
                        7 February 2026 11: 43
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Yura, today is my birthday, but tomorrow I'll definitely quote you a passage. Let's discuss it.

                        My heartfelt congratulations! I wish you all the best in life and the fulfillment of all your dreams!
                      11. +1
                        7 February 2026 22: 07
                        Thank you very much! Although we rarely see eye to eye, I appreciate your constructive criticism.
                      12. +3
                        7 February 2026 12: 34
                        Warm congratulations, Andrey Nikolaevich!
                        I join in wishing you health, happiness, creative success and material prosperity.
                        Good luck in everything!
                        Sorry for the delay, I was banned.
                      13. +2
                        7 February 2026 16: 17
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        Sorry for the delay, I was banned.

                        Welcome to the club))
                        drinks
                      14. 0
                        7 February 2026 22: 08
                        Quote: Victor Leningradets
                        Sorry for the delay, I was banned.

                        ?!!!??? For what?!!!
                        Thank you very much for your kind words hi drinks
                      15. 0
                        7 February 2026 19: 32
                        Happy birthday, dear Andrey!
                        Health, money and achievements! drinks
                      16. +1
                        7 February 2026 22: 09
                        Quote: 65-73
                        Happy birthday, dear Andrey!

                        Very nice, thank you drinks
                      17. +2
                        7 February 2026 09: 53
                        So, I'm fulfilling my promise.
                        "I have the honor to inform Your Excellency that Mr. Lagan, the chief builder and manager of the Toulon shipyards of the Forge Company, intends to arrive in St. Petersburg on May 11 to present to the Technical Committee his draft of a 12,700-ton battleship and a 6000-ton cruiser, according to the programs proposed by the Naval Ministry." And it is unlikely that anyone could have imagined that it was precisely this meager information that would become the key point in the design of a whole series of domestic squadron battleships "for the needs of the Far East."
                        A meeting of the Technical Committee to review Lagan's proposed design had already been scheduled for May 18, and two days later, the MTC sent a copy of the developed program for a 12,900-ton battleship to the GUKIS, with the aim of ordering such a ship from the Society. The "Forge et Chantier" is worth examining in more detail.
                        The displacement shall not exceed 12,900 tons (13,100 metric tons). The excess displacement weight of 300 tons is intended to be used to strengthen the watertight parts of the hull to fully comply with the water testing regulations for military vessels, as well as for an emergency reserve displacement, which should preferably be provided in an amount of at least 200 tons. Deepening... (other performance characteristics are listed below)

                        In general, I have an assumption that 12,700 tons became metric because this was the specification for Crump, and in the US there were long and short tons and all sorts of other things, they still have about 10 different tons (including registered, fuel, etc.)
                      18. +2
                        7 February 2026 15: 27
                        In general, I have an assumption that 12,700 tons became metric because this was the specification for Crump, and in the USA there were both long and short tons.

                        The excerpt completely confirms my first comment about the difference of 200 English tons - 12700 and 12900 English tons.
                        The United States may have had different tons at different times, but in the context of shipbuilding during the period in question, English tons were used, not metric tons.
                      19. +1
                        7 February 2026 22: 10
                        To be honest, I really don't understand why this passage supports your point of view.
                2. +1
                  6 February 2026 14: 40
                  Yes, I haven’t seen the program personally, and yes, I’m writing from hearsay, but Kudryavsky really did sift through a huge amount of archival documents.

                  Hello, dear Andrey!
                  Thank you very much for the new article on this topic!!
                  We've been waiting for it for ages, since December of last year)
                  1. +3
                    7 February 2026 22: 11
                    Sorry, I've been extremely busy. But I'll post the final article in the series this weekend. drinks
    5. +2
      4 February 2026 13: 42
      In essence, the “substandard” Retvizan turned out to be better than both the Tsarevich and the Victory.

      Yes, if they met the MTC requirements. But why "substandard"? It was the only one that met all the MTC requirements for a "12,000-ton battleship" plus the 400 tons negotiated by Cramp (not the 700 tons they claim, that'll come later). Except for the Belleville boilers...
  2. +7
    3 February 2026 06: 26
    Unfortunately, I do not have any data on the design of the 12,400-ton battleship presented by C. Crump, but it is unlikely that the difference in displacement of 1054 tons (the Iowa had a normal displacement of 11,356 tons) could have “pulled” the already outdated design to the level of a modern ocean-going battleship in 1898.

    Hello, deeply respected Andrey!
    Thank you very much for continuing the series, we've been waiting for it :-)
    Your humble servant does not have access to archival data.
    But we know from an open source that Kramp, after his proposed prototype was rejected, obediently fulfilled the customer's demand, producing sketch drawings of the future Retvizan, using as a basis the drawings of the Peresvet and the Prince Potemkin-Tavrichesky given to him by the Russian side.
    The battleship project agreed upon by Kramp and the MTK had the Peresvet as its prototype, as was decided at the Special Meeting on March 14, 1898.
    The main characteristics (without weapons) that satisfied both Kramp and MTK.
    Displacement not exceeding 12,700 tons
    Draft no more than 7,9 meters
    Main armor belt (229 mm) - 2/3 of the waterline length
    Upper armor belt (152 mm)
    Speed ​​- 18 knots
    Initially, the MTC demanded that Kramp have a displacement of no more than 12,000 tons, but the latter managed to persuade General Admiral Alexei Alexandrovich to increase the displacement by 700 tons.

    According to A. M. Abaza, the ship was quite undemanding in terms of cost and construction time. Construction of the battleship took 30-36 months.

    For the French fleet, this was probably the case.
    But for the Russian fleet, the Forges et Chantiers de la Méditerranée immediately announced a 48-month deadline. In reality, it didn't even meet the 55-month deadline.

    A. M. Abaza noted the high quality of the ship's construction, and his overall verdict was: "This vessel deserves full attention."

    In fact, Lagan is a hack.
    The main charges against him include the loss of control during the loading of over a thousand tons of coal onto the Tsarevich, as well as the delivery of the battleship to the customer with its main caliber guns unready for action.

    Abaza, if he was not bribed by the French, simply fell for their PR.
    Lagan loved to praise himself, not shying away from obvious lies.
    For example, in the anniversary book published at the beginning of the last century and dedicated to Lagan, it is said with a straight face that the MTC allegedly also considered English (!) and German (!) battleship designs, but chose the French one.
    And all thanks to his, Lagan's, shipbuilding genius.
    1. +4
      3 February 2026 06: 57
      Good afternoon, dear Valentine!
      Quote: Comrade
      But from an open source we know that Kramp, after his proposed prototype was rejected, obediently fulfilled the customer’s demand, producing sketch drawings of the future Retvizan.

      But when? :))) According to the conclusion of the ITC, at the time of concluding the contract, a specification was attached to the said contract
      The very subject of the concluded contract for the construction of the battleship does not meet the requirements of the Naval Technical Committee and, as is evident from the contract, does not even refer to a battleship with a displacement of 12,400 tons, which was proposed by Mr. Kramp himself in his letter to the manager of the Naval Ministry on March 29, but to a vessel of 11,966 tons, completely unknown to the committee.

      The first drawings, according to open sources, only began to arrive at the end of the year, and from them it became clear that the battleship would have a metacentric height of 0,91 m, while the MTK requirement is 1,37 m.
      Quote: Comrade
      In fact, Lagan is a hack.

      There are many nuances here, and the main one is that at the time the projects were being considered, there was no way to know this.
      1. +3
        3 February 2026 20: 17
        Good afternoon, dear Andrey!
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        According to the conclusion of the ITC, at the time of concluding the contract, a specification was attached to the said contract

        Here we have two sources: the domestic one says one thing, the American one says the opposite.
        It says that MTK knew what Kramp would build, and both parties came to a mutual agreement.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And the first drawings, according to open sources, began to arrive only at the end of the year

        Apparently, we are not talking about sketch drawings, but about construction ones.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        There are many nuances here, and the main one is that at the time the projects were being considered, there was no way to know this.

        Yes, probably.
        1. +2
          4 February 2026 20: 56
          Quote: Comrade
          It says that MTK knew what Kramp would build, and both parties came to a mutual agreement.

          Dear colleague, you write
          Quote: Comrade
          Here we have two sources: the domestic one says one thing, the American one says the opposite.

          And if that were true, I would agree with you, but it's not. Numerous archival documents refute the American source—including the ITC's conclusion regarding the "unknown vessel," the ITC's "harassment" of Verkhovsky, demanding an explanation for how he managed to sign such a contract, and Verkhovsky's explanations for it, and so on and so forth.
          So, from our side, our version is supported not only directly but also indirectly by numerous documents, which there was no point in falsifying. What documents can be cited in support of the American point of view?
          Quote: Comrade
          Apparently, we are not talking about sketch drawings, but about construction ones.

          I can't agree - the MTSV can be estimated based on sketches and specifications; construction drawings are not necessary for this.
          1. +1
            5 February 2026 01: 29
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            There are numerous archival documents to refute the American source.

            Dear Andrey, then I pass.
            I have not read the documents you listed, but at the same time I have no reason not to believe you.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            What documents can be cited in support of the American point of view?

            I'll take a look at the article and report back on the results :-)
          2. 0
            5 February 2026 12: 59
            Hello Andrey, thank you for another article. The picture of the pre-war shipbuilding fever is becoming increasingly clear. But it was already clear from the previous forums and theirs that Crump, after his Iowa project was rejected, immediately proposed building battleships (and the talk then was about two battleships and two armored cruisers) according to the customer’s design or on the basis of such a design. He was first offered the Peresvet as a basis (but a two-shaft version was needed), then the Potemkin project. He liked the Potemkin better, but the project was not yet ready or was being completely reworked to suit the needs of the future Pacific Fleet, and he took part in these modifications. The work was going very slowly (this is from American sources) due to the lack of experience in this of his Russian colleagues, they were rushed (that’s why Kramp was offered to take part in the design), plus his son was rushing him with telegrams, who reported that customers had come to him and he didn’t know whether to accept orders or wait for his father with orders from the Russians. Apparently, it was then that Kramp came up with the idea of ​​using as a basis not the Potemkin project itself, but the project of a casemate battleship that he had recently built (I forgot the name from the previous article) and it was with this proposal that he approached the General-Admiral, promising high construction rates, since the basis would be from a recently built battleship, all the documentation, equipment and molds were available at his shipyard, and the equipment and molds for castings were preserved by his metallurgical contractors. Those. In essence, he needs to marry the hull of that battleship with a casemate battery from the Potemkin to 12 six-inch guns. He didn’t have the actual design of the battleship with him, but he apparently prepared some sketches and drawings. Moreover, the slipway was freed up and it was possible to immediately begin laying down the Retvizan even without completing its design, since the lower part of the hull remained exactly unchanged. Apparently these arguments worked and convinced the admiral general to sign a contract with Crump. And Kramp immediately sent a telegram from St. Petersburg to his son to begin preparing metal for Retvizan... which could only be started by having at least part of the necessary specification. And she was at the Kramp shipyard. Those. In this case, neither the American nor the domestic versions contradict each other, but complement each other. And all the doubts, passions and bewilderment when signing a contract "for an unknown battleship" are explained by the haste of both the leadership of our Navy and Kramp himself, who was already terribly nervous due to the fact that a large part of the order was taken away from him (he was counting on ordering 4 armored ships \"Varyag" does not count, it was outside these plans as an armored deck \ and now he was barely getting enough for one battleship), while the slipway is being freed up, and customers are flocking to his son's shipyard. Everyone was in a hurry and there was indeed a certain amount of risk of “what he would build there.” If we had at least another half a year to prepare and approve the project, no one would remember those absurdities now. But everyone was in a hurry. And we were obviously late. There was a huge risk of not having time to build the ships by the time Japan was fully prepared for war... In which we (RI) could essentially only rely on the fleet... that he would be strong enough to disrupt/prevent the Japanese landing in Korea... It seems that no one believed at all that they would even decide to land in Manchuria. But in vain.
            From the book "The History of the Kramp Shipyard" it is known that, upon learning that the order (the entire order!) was to be given to the French through Witte's patronage, he created a real scandal - he had made such a long journey, spent so much time in negotiations and approvals in anticipation of a large order (4 armored ships + 30 to 50 destroyers with assembly in Arthur + assistance and organization with the involvement of an experienced contractor from the USA for the construction of this shipyard ... and even proposed his son as the director of the shipyard as an already experienced shipbuilder), and they simply wanted to screw him over and leave him with nothing! Moreover, his rage was very specific and targeted, and the addressee of this rage was Witte. But with representatives of the Admiralty, with Russian engineers and naval leadership, he had and still had excellent (as in the book) relations. He generally remembered that trip to Russia with particular warmth; it was a time of great hopes and grandiose plans - from the son’s memories of his father, all in the same book.
            Kramp had serious financial problems, which he hoped to solve by receiving such a large order from Russia. And when he realized that due to Witte's French protection, such a large order would not be forthcoming, he hurried home... and soon lost his shipyard due to a poorly executed loan. He was swindled by bankers and expropriated just before a huge order from the US government—the decision had been made to build the "Great White Fleet."
            1. +1
              5 February 2026 18: 41
              Good day! drinks
              Quote: bayard
              Apparently, it was then that Kramp came up with the idea of ​​using as a basis not the Potemkin project itself, but the project of a casemate battleship that he had recently built (I forgot the name from the previous article) and it was with this proposal that he approached the General Admiral, promising high rates of construction, since the basis would be from a recently built battleship, all the documentation, equipment and forms were available at his shipyard.

              Unfortunately, this is absolutely not the case. If it were, Kramp would have had no problem providing sketches and explanations for his project. And they were there; MTK wasn't just making waves and forcing Verkhovsky to justify himself. Had Kramp had a project, the battleship wouldn't have had to be urgently rebuilt when it was discovered that its MCV was 0,91 meters.
              He had nothing.
              The battleship he recently built is the Iowa. At the time of all these discussions, the Maine battleship project didn't exist yet, except for a very preliminary one, and again, in the first reading, it was a slightly tweaked Iowa. Crump may have used the Alabama as a model, it even seems that way (the ship was less than 12 tons), but he included it in the contract, causing extreme negative reactions from the ITC.
              Quote: bayard
              Apparently these arguments worked and convinced the admiral general to sign a contract with Crump.

              If that weren't the case, Crump would have been able to provide the information almost immediately upon returning to the United States. And the admiral-general didn't sign any contract; Verkhovsky did.
              1. 0
                6 February 2026 09: 04
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                But the General-Admiral did not sign any contract, Verkhovsky did it.

                But without General Admiral Verkhovsky's sanction and approval, Verkhovsky would never have signed such a deal. So, Kramp managed to convince them that he had (at home, he didn't take these designs with him) a design for a battleship suitable as the basis for the future Retvizan, which only needed a casemate battery from the Potemkin. Deadlines! It was a race against time, and Kramp's slipway was becoming available, there were other customers, so he had to take a risk and sign a contract for a project that didn't yet exist or that wasn't finished. That's why they assigned supervisors to Kramp, ensuring that the ship design, which was being finalized during the keel-laying process, met the requirements. All these inconsistencies can be explained by the rush.
                It would have been much simpler if Crump had taken with him to St. Petersburg not only the Iowa design, but also several other designs for recently built ships, like the Alabama. But he didn't do this, so he explained it verbally. The fact that before this proposal he was working on an improved Potemkin design "for the needs of the Pacific Ocean," but the work was progressing slowly, is confirmed in the book "The History of the Crump Shipyard" - recorded from the words of Crump's son. And that he took the unfinished Potemkin design with him from St. Petersburg - is also there. Well, yes - the Retvizan's survivability and unsinkability system was (it turns out) so-so. And this is also partly due to the haste, when there was no longer time to rework the design, nor for its high-quality analysis.
                And then there's the Retvizan's armor. If desired, the armor at the ends could have been reinforced, but that would have required revising the permitted specifications of the Military Aviation. The ship could have been lengthened by another 2-3 meters (to improve buoyancy) and thicker armor installed. But the specifications were issued, and it was fulfilled.
                The fact that Crump telegrammed his son to begin stockpiling metal suggests he already knew which ship he would base the Retvizan on. Most likely, it was the Alabama.
                hi
                1. +1
                  6 February 2026 10: 10
                  Quote: bayard

                  But without the sanction and approval of General Admiral Verkhovsky, he would never have signed such a thing.

                  You're mistaken, dear Bayard. He signed it quite well—if Verkhovsky had the General Admiral's sanction, no MTC would have demanded an explanation from Verkhovsky. And if he'd gone crazy and demanded it, Verkhovsky would have sent them packing, showing Alexei Alexandrovich's sanction.
                  Quote: bayard
                  It would have been much simpler if Crump had taken with him to St. Petersburg not only the Iowa project, but also several other projects of recently built ships, the same Alabama

                  The point is, he could have easily taken it. The 12,400-ton battleship that Crump brought back came from somewhere.
                  You have to admit, Crump doesn't look like a forgetful schoolgirl. He probably brought the best he had.
                  Quote: bayard
                  But he didn't do that and therefore explained it verbally

                  It doesn't work like that. You can't just say, "I'll take this and attach that." It's not like Lego, after all.
          3. +3
            6 February 2026 02: 21
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            There are numerous archival documents - this includes the conclusion of the ITC about the "unknown vessel"

            Hello, dear Andrey!
            I looked at McLoughlin's article about the Retvizan. He writes that Crump discussed the future battleship's characteristics at length with the Moscow Transport Committee (MTC) and cited "preliminary specifications," the details of which are included in my comment above. He also writes that the Retvizan was conceived as an 18-knot version of the Prince Potemkin-Tavrichesky, and the MTC knew this. So it's strange that they wrote in their conclusion that it was an "unknown vessel."
            1. +2
              6 February 2026 09: 03
              Good day, dear Valentine!
              Quote: Comrade
              I looked at McLoughlin's article about Retvizan.

              You must agree that this is a modern interpretation, which has less value than documents from ancient times.
              Quote: Comrade
              He writes that Crump had long discussed with MTK the characteristics of the future battleship.

              Our documents fully confirm this. General Admiral Kramp proposed designing a 12000-ton twin-shaft Peresvet. Kramp said he couldn't do it, then proposed his own design for a 12,400-ton ship. MTK disagreed, rolling out a program for a 12,700-ton battleship. Discussions continued with Verkhovsky, right up until the contract was signed.
              Quote: Comrade
              data from which is in my comment above.

              If I haven't missed anything, you wrote about the 12,700-ton battleship program. This was a requirement of the ITC.
              Quote: Comrade
              He also writes that the Retvizan was conceived as an 18-knot version of the Prince Potemkin-Tavrichesky.

              Dear colleague, Retvizan could not possibly have been conceived as an 18-knot version of the "Brownosets v potemkami." Potemkin's normal displacement was planned at that time to be 12,400 tons, while according to the specifications signed with Kramp, it was 11,966 tons. Potemkin's metacentric height at that time was 1,57 meters, according to the design, while Retvizan's at the end of the year was 0,91 meters.
              1. +2
                7 February 2026 01: 41
                Hello, dear Andrey!
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                You must agree that this is a modern interpretation, which has less value than documents from ancient times.

                McLaughlin quotes documents in his article, but not in this case.
                But the fact that Kramp was given the drawings of the Peresvet and the Prince Potemkin-Tavrichesky is mentioned several times.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                MTK did not agree, rolled out a program for a battleship for 12,700, discussions continued with Verkhovsky and further until the signing of the contract.

                McLoughlin writes that Crump persuaded the Russian side to add 700 tons.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                If I haven't missed anything, you wrote about the 12,700-ton battleship program. This was a requirement of the ITC.

                Yes, and McLoughlin says that this suited both sides.

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Retvizan could not have been conceived as an 18-knot version of the "Browner in the Dark".

                Dear Andrey, I sold it for what I bought it for :-)
                McLoughlin writes that Cramp was given plans for two battleships, that both sides agreed on 12,700 tons and 18 knots, and that Cramp used these sets of plans in designing the Retvizan.
                Logically, why on earth did the MTK give the plans for two Russian battleships to Kramp? My opinion, which I certainly can't prove with the documents in hand, is that they were given to Kramp so he would understand what was required of him.
                1. +1
                  7 February 2026 10: 29
                  Good morning, dear Valentin!
                  Quote: Comrade
                  But the fact that Kramp was given the drawings of the Peresvet and the Prince Potemkin-Tavrichesky is mentioned several times.

                  Quote: Comrade
                  McLoughlin writes that Crump persuaded the Russian side to add 700 tons.

                  I have no doubt about that.
                  Quote: Comrade
                  Yes, and McLoughlin says that this suited both sides.

                  This is certainly true.
                  But it is equally true that the specifications attached to the contract with C. Crump, signed by Verkhovsky, had nothing to do with Potemkin, Peresvet, or the agreed upon battleship of 12,700 tons.
                  There was something under 12,000 tons displacement - which hints at Iowa and Alabama
                  1. +1
                    7 February 2026 15: 14
                    Hello, dear Andrey!
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    There was something under 12,000 tons displacement - which hints at Iowa and Alabama

                    Yes, really weird.
                    Can the contract be found on the Internet? Maybe there are explanations and details there?
                    1. +2
                      7 February 2026 22: 06
                      Good evening, dear colleague!
                      Quote: Comrade
                      Can the contract be found on the Internet? Maybe there are explanations and details there?

                      Unfortunately, I am speaking here solely from the words of those who saw this contract while working in the archives.
                      1. +2
                        8 February 2026 05: 09
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Unfortunately, I am speaking here solely from the words of those who saw this contract while working in the archives.

                        We'll keep looking :-)
                        Something is already there.
          4. +1
            8 February 2026 11: 24
            Good afternoon.
            and the MTK's attack on Verkhovsky, demanding an explanation of how he managed to sign such a contract, and the explanations Verkhovsky gave on this matter,

            Dear Andrey, I can share an American version of the signing of the contract for the battleship Retvizan. Augustus C. Buell wrote Crump's memoirs in 1906. In one of his notes from 1899, he mentions a conversation in which Crump said the contract for the Retvizan was agreed upon after he lowered the price for the battleship. Crump also mentioned that he "won" the contract for the battleship from the French.
    2. +2
      3 February 2026 09: 30
      Good afternoon.
      For the French fleet, this was probably the case.
      But for the Russian fleet, the Forges et Chantiers de la Méditerranée immediately announced a 48-month deadline. In reality, it didn't even meet the 55-month deadline.

      In fact, Lagan is a hack.

      Dear Valentin, A. Lagan was no slacker. The RIF leadership should have understood that by ordering a battleship from a foreign shipyard, they would have to adhere to the rules and requirements for the construction of ships built at that country's shipyards.
      The extended construction timeline for the Tsarevich is due to the delayed approval of the main-caliber gun turret plans by the Ministry of Transport and Communications. According to French requirements, the ship's keel is laid only after the protection plans (plans) for the main and secondary guns and the armored conning tower have been approved. Changes to the plans, armor thickness, and design of the turrets and conning tower during construction were prohibited. Therefore, complaints regarding this matter are more likely to be attributed to the Ministry of Transport and Communications.
      1. +4
        3 February 2026 13: 53
        Hello dear Igor!
        The long-term construction of the "Tsarevich" is a problem specifically for Lagan.
        During the construction of the Tsarevich, a massive strike raged at the shipyard, caused by the miserable wages.
        A crowd of people came to Lagan's house, and his wife came out and said nothing would change. Lagan himself didn't even speak to the people.
        The problem is that Lagan took more for the Tsarevich than Kramp, I mean the cost per ton of displacement.
        At the same time, he paid workers several times less than Crump.
        That is, for Lagan, the priority was to line his own pockets, not to fulfill contractual obligations.
        The strike affected the construction schedule, and the shipyard was prepared for the possibility that Russia would refuse to accept the battleship altogether; this even affected the ship's launching ceremony.
        And when I said that Lagan is a hack, I meant the specific serious shortcomings listed in my comment.
        1. 0
          3 February 2026 14: 04
          Quote: Comrade
          The long-term construction of the "Tsarevich" is a problem specifically for Lagan.
          During the construction of the Tsarevich, a massive strike raged at the shipyard, caused by the miserable wages.

          I primarily looked at technical and regulatory issues. Strikes and labor shortages were common at virtually every shipyard in the world. At Kramp, the situation was even worse.
          1. +4
            3 February 2026 15: 05
            Quote: 27091965i
            I primarily looked at technical and regulatory issues.

            Before the battle on July 28, 1,100 tons of coal were loaded onto the Tsarevich. Grigorovich warned that if more than a thousand were loaded, the ship would lose control.
            That is, Lagan forced our sailors to choose between cruising range and ship controllability.
            And the ammunition supply system for the main caliber guns was a dummy.
            I believe that Lagan is to blame for all of this.

            Regarding strikes and personnel shortages - in Russia, the "Borodinets" were built faster than the "Tsarevich", and then they were loaded with coal to the brim, without losing control.
            1. +1
              3 February 2026 15: 28
              Quote: Comrade
              In Russia, the Borodinets were built faster than the Tsarevich, and they were then loaded with coal to the brim, without losing control.

              How nice it is to read such epithets)
              No, I understand that it had its own shortcomings, but it was still nice)
            2. +2
              3 February 2026 16: 07
              Quote: Comrade
              Regarding strikes and personnel shortages, in Russia the Borodinskys were built faster than the Tsarevich,

              It's not so much faster than the Tsarevich to be admired, and we need to see what was built in the end.
              And the ammunition supply system for the main caliber guns was a dummy.

              How did the "Tsarevich" fire in combat then? I don't think the shells were fed to the guns manually.
              Before the battle on July 28, 1,100 tons of coal were loaded onto the Tsarevich. Grigorovich warned that if more than a thousand were loaded, the ship would lose control.
              That is, Lagan forced our sailors to choose between cruising range and ship controllability.

              At the same time, the Tsarevich withstood the battle and reached Tsingtao under its own power, and this was not affected by the amount of coal loaded.
              A. Lagan did not force our sailors to make any choice; the estimated cruising range, coal reserves, and autonomy are agreed upon during the preliminary review of the project based on the technical specifications.
              The problem is that Lagan took more for the Tsarevich than Kramp, I mean the cost per ton of displacement.
              At the same time, he paid workers several times less than Crump.
              That is, for Lagan, the priority was to line his own pockets, not to fulfill contractual obligations.

              Still, A. Laganne shouldn't be blamed for this. Although he joined the company's board, he was still the chief engineer and had no financial responsibility. A. Lefèvre-Pontalis managed the company until 1901, and M.A. Musnier from 1901 onward. M.Ch. Babin was the immediate director until 1902, and M. le Comte Albert Armand from 1902 onward. Therefore, the low wages of the workers are not the fault of A. Laganne.
              1. +1
                3 February 2026 16: 58
                Quote: 27091965i
                Not so much faster than "Tsarevich" to be admired,

                If I remember correctly, Lagan took 4,5 years to build, while our Baltic Shipyard did it in 3,5. Considering how long it took us to build Oslyabya and Sevastopol, and factor in the "French elegance," you can truly admire our shipbuilders.
                1. +1
                  5 February 2026 13: 12
                  Quote: Trapper7
                  If I remember correctly, Lagan was built in 4,5 years, and our Baltic plant completed the job in 3,5.

                  And if they hadn't used the elegant design (with the sloping sides and VK turrets), but had used the casemate battery from the Potemkin/Retvizan, they would have built it even faster, and the Borodinets would definitely have made it to Artur before the war. But the truth is, the construction of a large series of identical battleships did give our shipbuilders good practice, and we began building faster. Almost at European standards.
                  1. +1
                    5 February 2026 14: 14
                    Quote: bayard
                    And if without grace

                    Where to get weapons?
                    It was not the elegance that limited the construction time, but the lack of tools.
                    1. 0
                      6 February 2026 07: 16
                      Quote: rytik32
                      Where to get weapons?

                      Expand production.
                      Buy a spoon to eat borscht. The Russian Empire lacked many things, including armor steel production, and they were just beginning to develop proper steam engines for propulsion plants.
                      And the refinements... they complicated and increased the cost of construction, delaying the construction cycle. At least our shipbuilders have since learned to bend metal. But Witte didn't provide funds for the development of necessary industries – he was "saving."
                      The advantage would have been that if the Borodin ships had been built with a casemate battery from the Potemkin, all four battleships would have been built faster and they would have had every chance of being in Arthur by the end of 1903.
                      1. +1
                        6 February 2026 16: 29
                        Quote: bayard
                        The advantage would have been that if the Borodin ships had been built with a casemate battery from the Potemkin, all four battleships would have been built faster and they would have had every chance of being in Arthur by the end of 1903.

                        What's the reality? Was Potemkin built faster than Borodino?
                        How did the 6-inch battery speed up its construction?
                      2. 0
                        6 February 2026 17: 28
                        Potemkin was built during the World Cup, and there was very little experience with such construction there... and it seems that changes were made to the design already during construction. Only in the Baltic did we have more or less decent shipbuilding. Besides, the Baltic had just finished the saga of building three Poltavas, which they had such a hard time with that, upon seeing Kramp's design with turret-mounted auxiliary artillery, they categorically rejected it with the words, "We definitely don't need another Poltava." This was, after all, a strict requirement from the Naval Ministry that new battleships should be casemate-only. And Lagan's design was personally lobbied by Witte (Kramp recalled this in conversations with his son, "Book of the History of the Kramp Shipyard"). Apparently, he pushed through the adoption of a design that had one and a half times more medium-caliber turrets than the Poltavas.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Was Potemkin built faster than Borodino?

                        The only thing that can be compared is the construction rates of the Tsarevich and the Retvizan (which had the same casemate battery as the Potemkin, with 12 six-inch guns). Haste, pressure from Witte, and... the decision made before Lagan's design was submitted.
                      3. -1
                        10 February 2026 19: 50
                        The Potemkin took a long time to build because no one was in any hurry. If there had been a rush, as with the dispatch of the 2nd TOE, it could have been completed in 1902.
              2. +4
                3 February 2026 19: 00
                Quote: 27091965i
                At the same time, the Tsarevich withstood the battle and reached Tsingtao under its own power, and this was not affected by the amount of coal loaded.

                As far as I remember, Makarov ordered the battleships to be reduced in coal reserves to be able to get the entire squadron out on a single tide. So, he certainly wasn't fully stocked.
                Although the story is strange...
                1. +2
                  3 February 2026 19: 37
                  Good evening.
                  Although the story is strange...

                  Dear Ivan, there's too much we don't know; testimony, recollections, and assumptions will never allow us to understand everything. I'll give a simple example from my service in the Armed Forces. A battalion received an automated control system (ACS) system, but no one could properly operate it. For a month and a half, "upgraders" trained, tested, and adjusted the system, basically teaching and explaining how to operate it properly. But six months later, no one remembered what the "upgraders" had done, but everyone was being told how to properly operate the system. The same thing applies to the history of the construction and combat operations of the Russian Navy ships.
              3. +4
                3 February 2026 20: 29
                Quote: 27091965i
                Not so much faster than "Tsarevich" to be admired

                I'm just stating a fact. By the way, could you remind me how many months it took to build the "Borodinets"?
                I'm writing from work, but I have this data at home, on my computer.
                Quote: 27091965i
                How did the "Tsarevich" shoot in battle then?

                In the previous thread, one of my comments contained a newspaper clipping. It said that the French in Port Arthur were working on a feed system for the main caliber guns. The newspaper was published after the war had begun.
                1. +1
                  4 February 2026 09: 48
                  Good afternoon.
                  I'm just stating a fact. By the way, could you remind me how many months it took to build the "Borodinets"?

                  Dear Valentin, we both know the construction deadlines.
                  I repeat my comment:
                  It's not so much faster than "Tsarevich" to be admired, and it's also worth watching, what was built in the end.

                  During the construction of the Borodino battleships, weight standards were violated. According to the Inspector General's report, there were issues with the armor quality, and Rozhdestvensky's reports indicate problems with the boilers. Had the factories been required to adhere to weight standards, redesign the armor, and correct the deficiencies, the construction of these ships would have taken an average of four years, perhaps even longer. Full-scale trials would have been necessary, and afterward, any identified deficiencies would have been corrected.
                  But given that they wanted to have these ships built by the start of the war, they turned a blind eye to most of the shortcomings.
                  It is impossible to consider construction in individual fragments, as this may lead to incorrect conclusions.
                  Fast does not mean high quality.
        2. +1
          3 February 2026 20: 10
          Quote: Comrade
          The problem is that Lagan took more for the Tsarevich than Kramp, I mean the cost per ton of displacement.
          At the same time, he paid workers several times less than Crump.

          That's true, but labor productivity also needs to be considered. While pay could be lower, the ship took much longer to build, so one offsets the other to a certain extent. Secondly, it wouldn't hurt to count the number of workers employed at the shipyard. Our Baltic Shipyard and the St. Petersburg Port are examples of how, with proper work organization, a significantly smaller workforce can be achieved.
          1. +4
            3 February 2026 20: 35
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            With proper organization of labor, it is possible to get by with a significantly smaller workforce; our Baltic Shipyard and St. Petersburg Port can serve this purpose.

            You can’t argue with that.
            In addition, they paid us there twice as much as in Lagan.
          2. +5
            4 February 2026 01: 22
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Here you also need to look at labor productivity - you can pay less, but the ship took much longer to build, one to a certain extent compensates for the other.

            I absolutely agree with you, dear Andrey.
            A private but interesting question: what profit did Kramp and Lagan make from fulfilling the Russian order?
            We don't have exact figures, but we can compare the cost per ton of displacement of ships built at the two shipyards.
            "Jauréguiberry" - 663,12 rubles/t.
            "Tsesarevich" - 764,89 rubles/t.
            The impression is that Lagan has clearly warmed its hands at our expense.

            And here is the data on Cramp, four cruisers for export:
            "Kasagi" - $505,66/t.
            "Abdülmecid" - $505,08/t.
            "Abdülhamid" - $578,56/t.
            "Varyag" - $455,52/t.
            Judging by the numbers, Crump clearly gave us a discount.
            1. +3
              4 February 2026 01: 38
              My apologies, dear colleague, a mechanical error :-)
              "Abdülhamid" was built by the British.
        3. +1
          3 February 2026 21: 39
          Lagan hired Italians, who could be paid less than the French.
    3. +3
      4 February 2026 13: 50
      I agree with you colleague, but
      Main characteristics (without weapons), which suited both Kramp and MTK.
      Displacement not exceeding 12,700 tons

      Probably an unintentional mistake, 12,700t is a "normal" VI (with weapons, coal, etc.) Without weapons - the price.
      1. +1
        4 February 2026 15: 08
        Hello, dear Anzar!
        Quote: anzar
        Probably an unintentional error, 12,700t is a "normal" VI (with

        That's how it is in the original.
        Quote: anzar
        No weapons - price.

        Yes, of course. The contract prices did not include weapons.
  3. +1
    3 February 2026 08: 52
    Thank you very much, Andrey Nikolaevich, for the interesting continuation!
    For my part, I see a weakness on the part of our designers: the lack of suggestions along the lines of "if certain parameters are changed, other parameters might be strengthened." Perhaps then our project would have been more interesting.
    And also, as I understand it, no draft drawings of the projects have survived? To even get a rough idea of ​​what they looked like. The only thing that comes to mind is something "Potemkin-like." Even Staver proposed his alternative design as a modified Potemkin.
    1. +7
      3 February 2026 11: 59
      Quote: Trapper7
      And also, as I understand it, there are no preliminary drawings of the projects left?

      Maybe they have been preserved somewhere, but how will you find them?
      You don't just have to get access to the archives, you have to bury yourself there for several years, and how the heck are you supposed to support your family all this time?
    2. +3
      3 February 2026 20: 03
      Quote: Trapper7
      Thank you very much, Andrey Nikolaevich, for the interesting continuation!

      You are always welcome, dear Dmitry!
  4. +1
    3 February 2026 08: 59
    All these leaps and antics can be explained by the most common struggle with a toad, which all navies of the world have experienced, including, incidentally, the British. Let's recall the "Admirals" with their wooden cannon mockups. It's just that England went through this earlier and, by the end of the 19th century, realized that increasing combat capabilities was impossible without increasing displacement, while the Japanese were smart enough not to overdo it and not seek "their own way."
    1. +3
      3 February 2026 10: 38
      The Japanese simply had funds from the Chinese indemnity and did not have to economize.
      1. +5
        3 February 2026 10: 41
        Uh... If we assume that the cost of a steamship is proportional to its displacement, then Russia could have found an extra tens of millions in preparation for war. The problem is, the Russian authorities didn't think it necessary.
        1. +1
          3 February 2026 10: 50
          The financial decisions made during the construction of this series of battleships and why this particular displacement was chosen have already been described, as has the error in estimating Japan's wartime readiness. That's why things turned out the way they did. But without the indemnity, they would have been forced to follow the same path: a few large but expensive ships, or many cheap but small ones.
          1. +1
            3 February 2026 11: 02
            Let me reiterate. The desire to get a nickel's worth of gold was present in all maritime powers, and England especially. This has been described repeatedly by Park himself. It was precisely the failure of these cost-cutting efforts that led to the construction of 15,000-ton battleships. The Japanese, having once decided to imitate the British, simply did so consistently.
            It also finally dawned on the others, but belatedly.
        2. +6
          3 February 2026 19: 35
          Quote: Grossvater
          Uh... If we accept that the cost of a steamship is proportional to its displacement, then Russia could have found an extra ten million while preparing for war.

          Are we talking about Russia, which couldn't find the funds in time for a second set of shells for the navy? Or even for shell testing? And not because of the malice of officials, but because the navy had already exhausted both the budget and extraordinary loans for its current needs. wink
          Although, of course, the fleet was wasted – the same Libau...
      2. +5
        3 February 2026 12: 03
        Quote: gromila78
        The Japanese simply had funds from the Chinese indemnity and did not have to economize.

        And they didn't need to regularly use the Suez Canal, so they didn't have to worry about draft.
      3. +4
        3 February 2026 12: 42
        The lost war and revolution cost far more. There was money, if spent wisely.
        1. +2
          3 February 2026 13: 42
          No one planned to lose the war, much less start a revolution.
          1. +1
            3 February 2026 16: 30
            Now that's a highly debatable question. Nikolai didn't plan to lose the war and certainly didn't crave revolution. What about that "Chubais" Witte? He was the one who nixed the purchase of Chinese armored ships. I wouldn't be surprised if he had a hand in the "Garibaldi" campaign, too.
            1. +1
              5 February 2026 14: 55
              Quote: faiver
              After all, it was he who nixed the purchase of Chinese armored ships; I wouldn't be surprised if he had a hand in the Garibaldi project as well...

              He had a hand in everything back then. And practically all the ships, starting with the design selection. Remember the awkward "goddesses" – the shame of Russian shipbuilding? That was his work too.
              Do you know what these ships (Project Diana) were originally supposed to look like? A twin-shaft propulsion plant with 15,500 hp, a 6000-7000 t propeller, and a speed of 20,5-21,5 knots. Armament: two 8" main guns in two turrets + eight 6" secondary guns. That is, roughly like the Bayan, only without the armor belt. And four of these were supposed to be built, plus six high-speed six-thousanders of the Askold project (two in Germany and four in Russia). And it was Witte who intervened, directly through the Foolish Tsar, putting forward (and this was also widely spread in the press) "Let's support domestic producers!" - he is the author of this slogan. Therefore, instead of a licensed two-shaft propulsion plant, his accomplices (and this was direct and immediate sabotage) proposed a "cruiser with a domestic three-shaft propulsion plant" with boilers simply monstrous in productivity, operational characteristics, weight and dimensions. There was no longer room for artillery on this monster, and so they left only 8 x 6" + 75 mm. guns. He became hysterical and refused to provide funds for orders of ships abroad, disrupted negotiations and contracts, did not provide funds for the expansion of production of naval guns and shells for them. He wound up the Tsar to the point of downright hysteria, when a trial batch of artillery shells was already made on equipment purchased in France and tested (the shells turned out to be VERY good), he, in response to a request for funds to produce such shells for the Pacific Fleet, screeched in a falsetto, "Are you trying to ruin me with these shells? "Fight with what you have!" ... and ran away. It's obvious that Witte had twisted him to such an extent, the poor thing.
              We couldn't buy the Garibaldians for another reason: England acted as a mediator during the peace treaty between Argentina and Chile, and the British insisted on a clause in the treaty stipulating that their ships, including those ordered and those under construction, could be sold or transferred to another state only with the approval of the British Crown. So we know about the initiative of the Italian shipyard owner to sell the ships to Russia, but as for the reason for the refusal... usually something like "we didn't need such ships," "they're battleships for the poor, and we're so rich," "they don't meet the Navy's requirements," and so on, is uttered. In reality, this was a cover-up of England's prohibition on selling these ships to Russia. A little later, they wooed Japan, and the American banks provided the funds for this deal to J. Schiff's thug company.
              He also invited the French and their Lagan to St. Petersburg and offered them every possible protection to sabotage a large and complex contract with Kramp. Kramp was prepared to build four armored ships for the Russian Empire (not counting the Varyag)—two battleships and two armored cruisers "better than Asama"—as well as 30 to 50 torpedo boats in kit form, with assembly to be organized in Artur, a number of large high-speed steamships for the Volunteer Fleet, and also to assist in finding a contractor and organizing production at one or two large shipyards in Artur and Dalniy. Kramp proposed the construction of a friend whose firm specialized in building modern shipyards, and he proposed his son, already an experienced shipbuilder and managing the shipyard in his father's absence, as director. Witte destroyed all these agreements and arrangements, insisting that the entire order go to the French (the French shipyards, like much else, belonged to his grandmother's relatives (the halachic line)—the French Rothschild clan—Witte, on the halachic line, is a Rothschild). Only a scandal stirred up by Kramp and the intercession of the General Admiral led to the order being split in half, with Kramp receiving credit for the armored cruiser "Varyag."
              What happened with the "Askold" class cruisers, two of which were supposed to be built in Germany and four at home? And what a disgrace it was with the "Novik"? When the "Novik" cruiser was ordered from the Schichau company, it was agreed that they would develop the design and build four such cruisers for the Russian Imperial Fleet, and another six would be built in Russia. But Witte tore up the contract, saying that "one was enough," and demanded that the company provide all the technical documentation for building the cruisers in Russia. Schichau replied that since the order had been cancelled and they would not be building four cruisers, they would have to pay for the documentation separately. We were prepared to give up the documentation for four ships as an option. Witte flatly and rudely refused to pay the Germans, but sent his agent, who, like a thief, broke into the Schichau management office at night and stole the documentation for the "Novik." Moreover, Witte publicly declared to the press that the documents had been stolen on his orders, and that his thief-agent was a "national hero." And the press, under Witte's control, began shrieking in praise of the new "hero of Russia." Upon learning of this, Schichau filed a lawsuit, and the Germania shipyard, where the Askold had just been built, publicly burned all the technical documentation, refusing to hand over the necessary documents for the construction of similar cruisers in Russia. A terrible scandal, including a diplomatic one, ensued, and it was barely hushed up. And in Russia, instead of the Askold, which had already been selected for the series, cruisers based on the Bogatyr design had to be built.
              And so, no matter what, right down to the financing of the so-called First Russian Revolution. This tired old man, already prime minister, paid workers twice as much from the state treasury for a day of strikes as they earned in exchange. Through agents, of course, but even then it became known, and it was written about by, among others, Sharapov (the leader of the Slavophiles), John of Kronstadt, and Archbishop Nikon (head of the Russian Orthodox Church's catechism department)—these are the ones I've read and whose books I have at home.
              He didn't provide funds for the fortification of Arthur, for the purchase of coastal artillery, or even for deepening the fairways at the main Russian Pacific Fleet base. He didn't give a penny to fortify the trading port and city of Dalny (now Dalian), which was built from scratch; there wasn't even a garrison there, let alone a couple of puny guns.
          2. +2
            3 February 2026 16: 36
            Of course, they didn't plan it, but they couldn't help but understand the consequences of defeat. This meant they had to approach the war with the utmost seriousness, and in St. Petersburg they were planning to throw foot wraps at the Japanese.
            1. +2
              3 February 2026 16: 43
              Replace Japanese and Peter with other words and you will understand everything about the quality of preparation.
            2. +2
              3 February 2026 17: 00
              Quote: TermNachTER
              Of course they didn’t plan it, but they couldn’t help but understand the consequences of defeat.

              I think such a development of events was not even considered by politicians.
              1. +2
                3 February 2026 17: 49
                That is why admirals (generals) exist, to explain to politicians (tsars) the correspondence between their wishes and the real capabilities of the Armed Forces.
  5. +1
    3 February 2026 09: 43
    The topic of bribes, kickbacks, and trips to France to oversee construction has not been disclosed.
    1. +3
      3 February 2026 20: 03
      I seriously doubt there were any bribes or kickbacks involved. That's one. Secondly, the "trips" involved in ordering the battleship "Forge et Chantier" were optimized—officers were already there overseeing the construction of "Bayan," so it seemed there was no need to send the same number of officers as, say, to oversee Retvizan.
      1. +4
        4 February 2026 14: 16
        I have serious doubts that there were bribes and kickbacks.

        Dear Andrey, then let us accept that the choice of the Tsarevich (who did not meet the requirements of the MTC, as you have very well shown here) was determined by the tastes of the VK and the general prestige of French military shipbuilding - at that time the American school was just becoming) As well as the advantages project Bought by non-compliance with the maximum VI (and "" Kramp thought that MTK knew what they wanted and didn't show creativity)) In this context, eventual "kickbacks" may not be decisive, just a nice bonus))
        1. +1
          4 February 2026 20: 45
          Quote: anzar
          then we will accept that the choice of the Tsarevich (who did not meet the requirements of the MTK, as you have very well shown here) was determined by the tastes of the VK

          However, the VK gave its conclusion based on the positive review of the MTK...
  6. +3
    3 February 2026 10: 37
    Lagan was only able to make its changes by deviating from the original specifications, which is a minor issue. Reducing coal and provisions directly leads to a reduction in endurance, which is critical for the Pacific Ocean. The simple conclusion is that achieving a proper design within the specified displacement is impossible simply by reducing performance characteristics (endurance, armor, and artillery).
    1. +2
      4 February 2026 14: 21
      The simple conclusion is this: it will not be possible to achieve a normal design with a given displacement, only by reducing the performance characteristics (autonomy, armor, artillery)

      What's so abnormal about Retvizan's project? Lots of coal, refrigerators...
      1. +1
        4 February 2026 14: 41
        Quote: anzar
        What makes Retvizan's project "abnormal"?

        Nikloss boilers.
        Ventilation.
        Watertight bulkheads.
        Location of ammunition cellars.
        Low side.
        Artillery flooding.
        The armor is weaker than that of the Tsarevich.
        1. +2
          4 February 2026 15: 22
          Nikloss boilers

          What's so "abnormal" about them? They were widely used later, even on Danton turbines! (Which put an end to them)
          Ventilation.
          Watertight bulkheads.

          The notorious balls that are supposed to cover...?
          Low side

          Just "normal", like "everyone else" (without bulwarks), the exception is the Peresvets and Borodinets with an "abnormally" high forecastle)) Was the Bouvet's bow higher than the Retvizan's?
          The armor is weaker than that of the Tsarevich.

          However, the 229mm KTs were quite "normal" for that time. And the armor area is even larger.
          1. +2
            4 February 2026 15: 31
            Quote: anzar
            They were widely used later, even on Dantons with turbines!

            And even on dreadnoughts, but the Franks weren't the only ones who could operate them. The rest, after much suffering, traded them in.
            Quote: anzar
            And the armor area is even larger.

            Technically, yes. But in reality, a significant portion of the side was covered by 50mm thick plates that offered no protection whatsoever.
            My regards hi
            1. +3
              4 February 2026 15: 58
              ...but the Franks were not the only ones who could exploit them.

              Stubborn)) And they always prefer their own shirt...))) I like Babcock the most. Only there does the counter-current principle work.
              My regards

              Mine to you too hi By the way, I haven't checked recently to see if you have anything new. If it's paid, I won't be able to pay from "far abroad."
              1. +3
                4 February 2026 16: 07
                If you decide to do it, send me a private message and I'll send you a promo code.
          2. +2
            4 February 2026 15: 55
            then, even on Dantons with turbines!

            Those boilers were noticeably different from Retvizan's...
            The notorious balls that are supposed to cover...?

            The problem isn't the balls, it's the problem they were supposed to solve.
            On the Retvizan, the bulkheads were only conditionally watertight, as they had numerous technological openings, doors, etc.
            like "everyone else"

            During the Battle of Tsushima, sea spray made it difficult for the Shikishima to fire from its forward turret. The waves that day were modest, compared, for example, to the typhoon that nearly sank the Iwami in almost the same spot several months later.
            However, the 229mm KTs are quite “normal” for that time

            The extremities are thin.
            1. +3
              4 February 2026 16: 34
              But the excitement that day was modest, for example, compared to a typhoon...

              Fighting in a storm means throwing shells overboard anyway.
              ...which almost sank the "Iwami"....

              How can this be? It has a high side..)
              The extremities are thin.

              51mm, but high. The Formidables (1898, 15kt!) had 76mm in the bow, but 38mm in the stern. Is that abnormal? High-explosive shells (of the time) didn't penetrate, but armor-piercing shells could penetrate even more.
              1. +3
                4 February 2026 17: 42
                Quote: anzar
                High explosive shells (of that time) do not penetrate, but armor-piercing shells penetrate even more.

                Generally, high-explosive shells are capable of penetrating armor up to half their own caliber. The ones of that time, while they didn't penetrate, did loosen the thin 51mm plates, causing leaks. In other words, the armor at the ends wasn't fulfilling its intended purpose. This, coupled with the inability to pump water out of the forward compartments, created significant problems.
              2. +2
                4 February 2026 17: 54
                To fight in the storm

                The Battle of Tsushima did not take place in a storm...
                because it has a high side

                ...but there are a lot of holes
                51mm

                compare with "The Tsarevich"
                1. +2
                  4 February 2026 20: 23
                  compare with "Tsarevich"

                  He's thicker. And how does that make Retvizan's project abnormal? (for that time) After all, this statement is what started... the discussion with you.
                  1. +4
                    4 February 2026 21: 27
                    Quote: anzar
                    And how does this make Retvizan’s project NOT normal?

                    Compare with Suffren or Wittelsbach

                    But the key thing is different, I wrote about this above:
                    1. The Peresvet's main watertight bulkheads below the living deck had no doors. What about the Retvizan's?
                    2. The Peresvet's ventilation pipes didn't pass through the main watertight bulkheads and had no doors. What about the Retvizan's?
                    3. The Peresvet had a coal pit between the artillery magazines and the outer side. What about the Retvizan?
                    1. +1
                      4 February 2026 23: 28
                      But the key is different...

                      OK, but how are these... "features" a consequence of "impossibility of creating normal battleship in the specified VI" (the gist of the discussion)? Not better, but "normal"!
                      The Peresvet had a coal pit between the magazines and the outer side. What about the Retvizan?

                      I don't know, but neither Tsesar (a 2-meter void and a reinforced bulkhead) nor Potemkin (dynamos), whose design Kramp aped in detail, including three funnels (for two boiler rooms) and the elaborate armor plating of the six-inch gun casemates, had coal. Peresvet's only contribution was the heavy "combat" foremast and mainmast. What can he do? He really wanted more orders... the customer will like him, so there's no hassle with assigning the "best" to the task.
                      1. +1
                        4 February 2026 23: 46
                        Quote: anzar
                        the essence of the discussion

                        I did not conduct a discussion on this topic.

                        at Caesar's (2m void and reinforced partition)

                        And the Retvizan had no coal, no armored bulkhead. So, a mine, a torpedo, a diving shell, and...
                        heavy "combat" foremast and mainmast

                        That's a secondary concern. The key to the project is the layout of the internal components, especially below the overhead power line.
                        including 3 pipes (for 2 boiler houses)

                        That's also a minor issue; reconfiguring the pipes isn't difficult. A prime example is Japanese battleships.
                      2. -1
                        5 February 2026 09: 46
                        I did not conduct a discussion on this topic.

                        I've already noticed that you don't understand what you're getting yourself into. In response to my colleague's assertion that "obtain in a given displacement normal the project won't work out"They rolled out a list of the Tsarevich's advantages (in the larger VI), which doesn't at all imply that the Retvizan design was abnormal for its time. In the same vein, I could point out to you that the 14,3-kilogram Republic (whose draft design Bertin dated back to 1898) is superior to the Tsarevich in every way (thicker guns and armor, larger area, deeper anti-tank protection, higher speed...). So what? Does that mean the Tsarevich is an abnormal design?
                        ...the last thing is, it's not difficult to rearrange the pipes

                        I gave this only as an example of Crump's "ape-like behavior"; it has nothing to do with the armadillo's "normality."
                        Retvizan has no coal, no armored bulkhead.

                        Which didn't save the Tsar from a Japanese torpedo. This innovation hadn't yet been tested, just like the ventilation and other innovations on the Retvizan.
                        So calm down) - Tsarevich is better than Retvizan (regardless of price)... provided they are made in France and the USA, respectively)) Their Russian copies...
                      3. +3
                        5 February 2026 10: 09
                        Good afternoon.
                        Which did not save the Caesar from a Japanese torpedo

                        Dear anzar, the anti-torpedo bulkhead of the Tsarevich could not have helped; it simply was not there where the torpedo hit.
                        This innovation has not been tested yet,

                        E. Bertin's torpedo protection was not widely adopted. Furthermore, France was using and developing a different torpedo protection system consisting of three bulkheads.
                      4. 0
                        8 February 2026 17: 08
                        The anti-torpedo bulkhead of the Tsarevich could not have helped, it was simply not there at the point where the torpedo hit.

                        Whatever it was, the center of the explosion was between frames 33 and 37, the PMP ended at frame 37.
                      5. +1
                        8 February 2026 19: 15
                        Whatever it was, the center of the explosion was between frames 33 and 37, the PMP ended at frame 37.


                        An external examination showed that the center of the explosion was between frames 31 and 37 near the beginning of the stern tube opposite the arsenal rooms.
                        Based on the requirements of unsinkability, the ITC proposed to place the main transverse bulkheads on bow frames No. 35, 21 and stern No. 8, 25, 37.
                        The longitudinal bulkhead of the corridor behind the side armor had a thickness of 15 mm and ran from each side at a distance of 1,5 m along the length from 35th nasal to 25th stern frame and in stern from 30 to 37 frame.

                        Look at the frame numbers.
                      6. 0
                        9 February 2026 07: 01
                        Look at the frame numbers.

                        The aft transverse bulkhead, closing the forward control point, is at 37 frames. The explosion center is at 31-37 frames, just opposite the end of the forward control point.
                      7. +1
                        9 February 2026 07: 59
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        The aft transverse bulkhead, closing the forward control point, is at 37 frames. The explosion center is at 31-37 frames, just opposite the end of the forward control point.

                        There is no first-marshalling hull in this place; look where the numbering of the frames in the stern and bow of the Tsarevich begins. I repeat;
                        "Based on the requirements of unsinkability, the ITC proposed to place the main transverse bulkheads on bow frames No. 35, 21 и feed No. 8, 25, 37."
                        Where are frames No. located in the stern of the Tsarevich? 8, 25, 37?
                      8. +1
                        9 February 2026 16: 44
                        There is no PMP in this place, look where the numbering of the frames in the stern and bow of the "Tsarevich" begins. I repeat

                        You are confused by the numbering of the frames (it is double), since we are talking about the stern, then we count 37 frames from the MS to the stern and get to the aft bulkhead of the magazine of the aft turret (the numbers are difficult to see, but you can count from the MS yourself):
                      9. 0
                        9 February 2026 21: 09
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        You are confused with the numbering of the frames (it is double),

                        I'm not getting anything confused. The goal is to figure out where the PMP ends. From 30 to 37, it runs 1,5 meters from the side, a 15mm-thick longitudinal bulkhead. At 3.5 meters from the side, there's an armored bulkhead that wasn't damaged by the explosion, but look at which compartment it's a "wall" for. This bulkhead can't be a torpedo barrier; it's armored protection for that compartment. Look at which compartment is behind it.
                      10. +1
                        10 February 2026 15: 47
                        from 30 to 37 goes, at a distance of 1,5 meters from the side, a longitudinal bulkhead with a thickness of 15 mm

                        You are confusing different levels in height; read your own quote carefully: the 15mm bulkhead goes behind the armor belt, above the lower deck, and is the bulkhead of the side corridor behind the armor.
                        Below deck, there are no bulkheads between the double-hull and the first-level deck. See the drawing:
                      11. +1
                        10 February 2026 18: 53
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Below deck, there are no bulkheads between the double-hull and the first-level deck. See the drawing:

                        Poor M. Bertin, little did he know that many years later, an unknown naval history buff would add three letters to the diagram and change his conclusion. But who cares about M. Bertin? He's just some Director of Naval Constructions, and they were simply coordinating the installation of the PMP with him.
                        " On appliqua quend même cette sclution sur les cuirassés conçus vers cette époque, Le Cesarevitch russe avait une cloison interne de 15 m/m et un cuirassement de 40 m/m. Il n'eut pas l'occasion de subir l'épreuve du feu, car la torpille japonaise qui le frappa devant Port-Arthur n'atteignit que l'extrême arrière du bâtiment. " M. Bertin.
                        A full analysis can be found in the French Navy Library.
                        Good luck to you.
                      12. 0
                        11 February 2026 02: 33
                        Poor M. Bertin, he had no idea that many years later, an unknown naval history buff would put three letters on the diagram and change his conclusion.

                        But there is no conclusion by Bertin that would confirm your fantasy that there was some kind of 15mm bulkhead between the PMP and the side.
                        The French text does not indicate its location, but in reality the 15mm bulkhead was located behind the armor belt, i.e. at a level higher than the PMP.
                        Look at the drawings and try to find a bulkhead 15 mm below the lower deck, and let me know when you find it.
                        In the meantime, the drawings are against you and not at all against Bertin.
                        Best of luck in your search.
                      13. +1
                        10 February 2026 15: 58
                        This bulkhead can't be a torpedo barrier; it's armor protection for the compartment. Look at the compartment behind it.

                        1. Armor protection is not made of armor.
                        2. The entire PMP on Tses can safely be called the protection of all the compartments located behind it along the length of this very PMP.
                        3. Behind the PMP, within the aft limits of the 31st-37th regiments, there is a magazine for 12" shells.
                      14. +2
                        5 February 2026 10: 33
                        Quote: anzar
                        as well as ventilation

                        The Retvizan's ventilation system is an archaism, dating back to the days when ships had several powerful steam fans, with ventilation ducts running halfway across the ship.
                        There were already dozens of electric fans on the Peresvet, and the ventilation ducts went almost exclusively upwards, without violating the integrity of the bulkheads.
                      15. 0
                        7 February 2026 20: 00
                        It's completely incomprehensible why everyone's praising this torpedo bulkhead so much. It attracted attention as an innovation. But could it withstand a torpedo blast? And if it could? Perhaps it would have done more damage. No one's analyzed it. When a compartment is flooded, the heeling moment may generally be less if the flooding affects the volumes at the edge of the hull. Everything needs to be looked at and calculated. Otherwise, it could be that it's being pulled by a 381mm torpedo, while with a 450mm torpedo, it would be better not to have it at all.
                        Torpedo defenses for battleships were conceived, tested, and built, but they didn't work in real-life conditions. And yet Lagan's cleverness is praised for some unknown reason. Simply because he was the first to do it. On someone else's ship and at someone else's expense.
                      16. +1
                        10 February 2026 13: 58
                        I'm constantly writing from my phone and don't pay attention. The point is that flooding the entire section doesn't create the same heeling moment as flooding a compartment on just one side of the centerline or a portion of the compartment adjacent to the side. The leverage is greater. There may not be time to counter-flood.
      2. 0
        4 February 2026 16: 08
        The article states that coal reserves were reduced by 20%, provisions by 50%, and water by 92% (instead of 120 days, there were 10).
        1. +1
          4 February 2026 16: 39
          The article states that coal reserves were reduced by 20%, provisions by 50%, and water by 92% (120 days were reduced to 10).

          This is for the Caesar
          1. +2
            4 February 2026 22: 00
            Yes, my apologies. The task was marked with an asterisk. I decided to compare projects. I apologize in advance for any errors. I was searching on my phone, which isn't very convenient. The result:
            The performance characteristics of the Retvizan are 117,9 x 22 m, draft 7,9 m (not specified for which VI), normal VI 12410 t, full 13100 (I don’t understand how this is possible, considering the full coal reserve), coal reserve 1000 t, full 2250 t, power plant capacity 16000 hp, cruising range 4900/8000 miles;
            The performance characteristics of the Tsarevich are 121 x 23,2 m, draft 7,94 m (not specified for which VI), normal VI 13100 tons, coal capacity 800, propulsion capacity 16700 hp, cruising range 5500 miles (the range in sources here is striking).
            On paper, Retvizan is completely superior, but one wonders how, with 700 tons less FI, it managed to fit so much coal, given that it has four more boilers (24 versus 20) and, judging by the fact that Retvizan has three funnels and Tsarevich has two, it has a much larger boiler room. This means much less internal space. Tsarevich's armor is better; it's thicker, with 350 tons more of it.
            In short, I don’t know, it seems that Retvizan served too little and we simply don’t know about his dark side.
            1. +3
              4 February 2026 22: 10
              Quote: gromila78
              Retvizan served too little and we simply don’t know about his dark side.

              You might be wondering how much water the Retvizan took on from the torpedo hole? How much from the underwater hole from a 120mm siege gun shell?
              Compare with the consequences of similar damage to other ships.
              Why so many? Because when designing the Retvizan, unsinkability was simply ignored!!!
              1. +3
                4 February 2026 22: 15
                I read: the lead destroyer of the 1st Squadron, the Shirakumo, had already launched a torpedo, which hit the Russian ship at 11:35 p.m. The strike struck the port side near frames 19-20. Water immediately flooded the underwater torpedo room; of the six men inside, only one managed to escape. The lights went out in the interior, and water continued to flood the forward compartments, causing the battleship to settle and list to port.

                The Retvizan's commander, awakened by the explosion, went above deck in the midst of the battle. A water alarm sounded on the Retvizan. When the list reached 11°, E. N. Shchensnovich ordered the starboard ammunition magazines flooded, which helped halve the list. However, pumping out the water proved impossible: the only bilge turbine for the forward compartments was damaged by the explosion, and diverting water to the boiler rooms was impossible due to the lack of bulkhead seals. It soon became clear that the hollow balls in the ventilation pipes had also failed to seal them, having been deformed by the shock of the explosion, allowing water to spread throughout the ventilation system.

                If it hadn't run aground, it would have sunk.
                1. +2
                  5 February 2026 08: 27
                  Quote: gromila78
                  If it hadn't run aground, it would have sunk.

                  I agree with your conclusion.
  7. +1
    3 February 2026 10: 43
    Quote: Kirill_4
    The topic of bribes, kickbacks, and trips to France to oversee construction has not been disclosed.

    I think, as is traditional in our country, this topic has been greatly exaggerated. In those days, everyone was bribed.
    1. +2
      3 February 2026 11: 33
      Quote: Grossvater
      In those days, everyone gave a bribe to everyone.

      It's good that this doesn't happen now. winked
      1. +1
        3 February 2026 16: 31
        It's good that this doesn't happen now.
        - laughing laughing
      2. +1
        3 February 2026 16: 53
        Well, of course not. In America, they even came up with a name for this activity: "Lobbying." A perfectly official and quite respectable activity.
        1. +1
          3 February 2026 21: 45
          And the funniest thing is that if such lobbying leads to negative consequences for the US, then the lobbyist is not to blame for anything; he honestly fulfilled the contract and paid taxes on the profits))) The example with F-14 is relatively recent and very illustrative.
      3. +4
        3 February 2026 19: 38
        Quote: Trapper7
        It's good that this doesn't happen now. winked

        Walking is slimy
        On pebbles other
        So, that is close,
        We better keep silent.
        © A.K. Tolstoy. History of the Russian State from Gostomysl to Timashev.
  8. +3
    3 February 2026 11: 19
    Good afternoon.
    Dear Andrey, thank you for continuing.
    The heavy hull weight of the French battleship design is immediately noticeable – as the table shows, it accounts for 39,1% of the normal displacement, while for domestic designs this figure ranges from 36,9% to 38,1%. Could it be that A. Lagan's approach to the project was negligent?

    It's impossible to calculate the exact weight distribution, as we have finite data. Based on French design rules, the battleship Tsarevich, with the required armament, would have an estimated displacement of 13700 tons. Subtracting 4% from this weight, the reserve displacement, yields 13152 tons. In other words, the French built a proper battleship, based on their own rules and regulations. Therefore, the hull weight would be 39,1% less.
    So, judging by the weight list of the Tsarevich, the anti-mine bulkheads and, possibly, the deck connecting them, with a total weight of 769,9 tons, were included in the weight of the hull, and not the armor.

    There are great doubts about this issue, since neither the French nor the British included armor in the weight of the hull.
    Thirdly, there's, of course, the turret-mounted placement of medium-caliber guns. This isn't just a matter of the turrets themselves, but rather their placement provided far better firing angles than casemates.

    Here, I'll perhaps cite documents from the Ministry of Marine: for close-range combat, guns must have a 60-degree firing angle from the gun axis. This can be achieved by mounting the guns in turrets and positioning them at the bow and stern of the ship. This is precisely the design of the battleship Jauréguiberry. Moreover, this placement of the artillery corresponded to the admirals' desire to engage at ranges of 15–17 cable lengths with armor-piercing shells in 1898.
    1. +4
      3 February 2026 16: 08
      Neither the French nor the British included armor in the weight of the hull.

      The PMP, which extends into the lower deck, was made of ordinary shipbuilding steel, and therefore was included in the weight of the hull.
      1. +1
        3 February 2026 16: 32
        Quote: Jura 27
        The PMP, which extends into the lower deck, was made of ordinary shipbuilding steel, and therefore was included in the weight of the hull.

        According to French standards, the armored bulkhead was considered, in terms of weight, part of the armor. Don't confuse the side plating, which is often added to the upper armor belt of French ships, with the armored deck.
        1. +3
          3 February 2026 16: 34
          armored bulkhead

          The PMP was not armored, therefore, in accordance with the rules, it was included in the weight of the hull.
          1. +1
            3 February 2026 16: 54
            Quote: Jura 27
            The PMP was not armored, therefore, in accordance with the rules, it was included in the weight of the hull.

            On warships, armored decks were also made of two-layer low-carbon steel, but they were not included in the weight of the hull; they were included in the total weight of the armor.
            1. 0
              4 February 2026 06: 00
              On warships, armored decks were made of two-layer low-carbon steel.

              This was long before 1898, when nickel steel did not yet exist, or the customer agreed to a cheap solution in the form of a protective deck made of ordinary shipbuilding steel.
              In the case of the Tses, everything is clear: the PMP has a lower deck made of non-armored steel, so it is included in the hull weight, according to French rules.
              1. +1
                4 February 2026 08: 44
                Quote: Jura 27
                In the case of the Tses, everything is clear: the PMP has a lower deck made of non-armored steel, so it is included in the hull weight, according to French rules.

                If you are really sure that this complies with French rules and regulations, could you please explain to me why the French design specifications use two terms "blindage" and "cuirassement" to designate the torpedo bulkhead.
                1. 0
                  4 February 2026 16: 09
                  In the French drawing of Cesa, what is the PMP called?
                  1. +1
                    4 February 2026 16: 28
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    In the French drawing of Cesa, what is the PMP called?

                    In the French specification "cuirassement", some changes may have been made, but I have not seen this among the French.
                    1. 0
                      5 February 2026 16: 18
                      Quote: 27091965i
                      Quote: Jura 27
                      In the French drawing of Cesa, what is the PMP called?

                      In the French specification "cuirassement", some changes may have been made, but I have not seen this among the French.

                      The bulkhead is called one word "armor"? Doubtful.
                      In Melnikov’s drawings, there is no name for the PMP.
                      1. 0
                        5 February 2026 18: 15
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        The bulkhead is called one word "armor"? Doubtful.

                        What's confusing you? Before 1901, torpedo protection in France was called the "Bouvet type protection system." It was installed on the battleships Bouvet, Carnot, and Jaureguiberry. On these ships, the anti-torpedo protection system was called "blindage." On the coastal defense battleship Henri IV, it was called "cuirassement," or, in some specifications, "cuirassoment bombé."
                        In Melnikov’s drawings, there is no name for the PMP.

                        Dear Yuri, honestly, I don’t know why Melnikov doesn’t have any name for the PMP.
                      2. +1
                        6 February 2026 07: 01
                        was called "système protecteur du type "Bouvet""

                        Here everything is correct - "protection system", and protection can be different, including constructive, like Tses.
                        "le blindage mince" - I translate it as "thin protection", which also applies to the Tsesa PMP.
                      3. +1
                        6 February 2026 09: 42
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        "le blindage mince" - I translate it as "thin protection", which also applies to the Tsesa PMP.

                        In this case, thin screens are not suitable for the "Tsarevich", an explanation will be below.
                        Here everything is correct - "protection system", and protection can be different, including constructive, like Tses.

                        Let me explain very briefly.
                        The first PMZ consisted of two bulkheads, low-carbon (mild) steel, structural protection.
                        The "Bouvet" protection system consisted of three bulkheads, low-carbon (mild steel), structural protection, or "blindage." After trials in 1895, the second bulkhead was replaced with a bulkhead made of nickel steel.
                        The "cuirassement" (or "cuirassoment bombé") defense system, an extension of the splinter deck, composed of nickel and mild steel, with a transition to the PM, was part of the armor protection. This was the Bertin system; according to French specifications, the battleship Tsarevich was to use the "amélioré système Bertin," with the addition of a second 10mm-thick bulkhead made of mild steel.
                        As I wrote, the design apparently underwent changes. For the French, using nickel steel was advantageous because it was lighter than low-carbon steel, reducing the overall weight. It was disadvantageous for Russia, as it increased the cost of the battleship.
                      4. +2
                        7 February 2026 11: 35
                        According to the French specifications, the battleship Tsarevich was to use the "amélioré système Bertin", with the addition of a second 10 mm bulkhead made of low-carbon (mild) steel.
                        As I wrote, apparently changes were made to the project.

                        In fact, yes, the improved system wasn't implemented. It would be interesting to see the original design; it should have been significantly different from the building constructed below the overhead line.
                      5. +2
                        7 February 2026 11: 37
                        For the French, using nickel steel was advantageous because it was lighter than low-carbon steel, reducing overall weight. It was disadvantageous for Russia, as it increased the cost of the battleship.

                        But ordinary steel is at least twice as cheap as nickel steel, so the Russians clearly saved money.
    2. +3
      3 February 2026 20: 00
      Good evening, dear Igor!
      Quote: 27091965i
      There are great doubts about this issue, since neither the French nor the British included armor in the weight of the hull.

      But this doesn't necessarily mean that the Tsarevich's weight distribution was based on French regulations—the specifications could have been recalculated according to ours. Or perhaps there was no armor, but rather ordinary steel.
      According to Melnikov, the anti-mine bulkhead was part of the hull
      1. +2
        3 February 2026 20: 18
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        But this does not mean that the Tsarevich's weight distribution was made according to French rules - the specifications could have been recalculated according to ours.

        Dear Andrey, that’s why I wrote;
        Based on French design rules,

        In general, regardless of the steel used, the French generally used the term "le blindage mince" to refer to torpedo bulkheads. Our calculations don't necessarily follow French rules; they did.
  9. +3
    3 February 2026 15: 58
    Andrey, thank you for another wonderful article!
    1. +3
      3 February 2026 20: 01
      And thank you very much for your kind words!
  10. 0
    3 February 2026 17: 36
    I'll explain everything to you now - there were three problems during the design:
    - lack of clear specialization for specific conditions;
    - technological backwardness of industry in the Russian Empire;
    - poverty of the Russian Empire due to insufficient development of productive forces.
    This is where all the problems come from.
    The Germans designed warships for the North Sea, for a specific task - everything was fine.
    And of course, the requirement for an 18-knot speed with limited displacement led to a narrowing of the hull at the bow... and so on.
    1. +1
      4 February 2026 08: 38
      Quote: Explainer
      The Germans designed warships for the North Sea, for a specific task—everything was fine.

      Blucher probably wouldn't agree with you.
      1. +1
        5 February 2026 11: 10
        The British finally found arguments to persuade Blucher. But what does this have to do with Germany's linear forces development strategy?
        1. 0
          6 February 2026 08: 58
          Quote: Explainer
          But what does this have to do with Germany's linear forces development strategy?

          Not long ago I saw an opinion that the Germans deliberately "cut" the characteristics of their ships, trying to show England that they are not too warlike and, in general, do not intend to challenge the hegemony of the Mistress of the Seas. And looking at the performance characteristics of the Germans, the thought comes that maybe there is something in this... In any case, their ships actually look "underarmed", so
          For a specific task, everything was fine.

          there was no "everything is fine" there.
          Well, and then,
          There were three problems during the design:
          - lack of clear specialization for specific conditions;

          That was precisely the specialization, because Russia's main seas are closed, but the passage between them is an ocean. So, we could have built ships along the German lines—low sides, short range, mediocre seaworthiness—but that would have severely limited our ability to reinforce our forces. It's not for nothing that we tried to build ships capable of traveling from the Baltic to Port Arthur using only their own coal reserves, without bunkering. It's not a happy life.
          1. +1
            7 February 2026 20: 05
            They needed to transport ships through the Kiel Canal. It was widened just before the war. And then there was money. Money matters. It's the weight of the metal plus the labor costs of processing it, which is 1:9-10.
  11. +3
    3 February 2026 17: 49
    Quote: Lomo
    Andrey, thank you for another wonderful article!

    Join us!
  12. +2
    3 February 2026 20: 56
    Or, for example, the armored cruiser Rurik II: it was superbly designed and built to a high standard, but was "born late," as it was built according to specifications for a good armored cruiser.

    Incidentally, this is a highly questionable statement, especially the "quality" part. It's worth noting that immediately after the firing trials, Rurik II was returned to the builder for structural repairs, at his expense. Her decks had buckled after a main battery salvo. winked
    1. +1
      3 February 2026 21: 52
      The quality was simply incredible))) The ship was still being modified for another year after being handed over to the navy. Considering that in 1906, instead of the "Bayan" in Toulon, they could have ordered two "Amalfi" ships from the Italians, or ordered one in Italy and built the other in Russia. The "Amalfi" was practically the same as the "Rurik II." And they could have avoided ordering the "Rurik" at all.
  13. +1
    3 February 2026 21: 37
    Why the obsession with turreted SCs? Turrets on Seastopols had a rate of fire that was twice as slow, but they were still being pushed into subsequent projects.
    1. +2
      4 February 2026 08: 40
      Quote: clou
      Where did this obsession with the tower SC come from?

      The angles, though. A casemate battleship is only good in classic, line-on-line combat. Chasing or pursuing an enemy immediately becomes a problem.
      1. 0
        5 February 2026 20: 12
        it depends on the shape of the casemate
        4 SK guns are mounted strictly in the bow/stern without difficulty
        1. +1
          5 February 2026 20: 37
          Quote: lodochnik2000
          4 SK guns are mounted strictly in the bow/stern without difficulty

          And the Borodinites have eight. Not counting the GK.
    2. +1
      4 February 2026 08: 41
      Well, they didn't exactly push it "into the next ones." The next ones are Peresvets.
      1. 0
        4 February 2026 10: 07
        Well, they are fast. bully, should have caught up
  14. -1
    4 February 2026 22: 44
    "On battleship projects" - when the author doesn't even bother about the article in the title.
    1. +1
      4 February 2026 23: 09
      Quote from Matsur
      when the author doesn't even care about the article in the title

      And what's wrong, O Constructive Critic?
  15. +3
    5 February 2026 05: 40
    Hello, dear Andrey!
    To look, as you did, at the time you describe through the eyes of that time, to evaluate the situation from the point of view of the people who lived then and made decisions then – this is, of course, the only correct way to obtain an objective assessment of that time.
    However, we can additionally try to evaluate the actions of people who directly or indirectly influenced reality.
    Let's get down to business :-)
    There is information that Abaza misled the head of the Naval Ministry by praising Jauréguiberry.
    Moreover, according to A. M. Abaza, the ship was quite undemanding in terms of cost and construction time. The cost of the ship without armament and ammunition was estimated at 23 million francs, and construction of the battleship took 30-36 months.

    In fact, the main contract was for 28,385,000 francs (artillery and mine armament – ​​2,432,000 francs), but that's not all. At least twenty additional contracts were signed during construction, and about ten more were signed during acceptance trials. In total, there are about thirty additional contracts.
    Construction of the Jauréguiberry began on April 23, 1891, and the final tests – for maneuverability at various speeds – were carried out on April 28, 1897. A total of sixty months from the date of laying.
    Thus, we see that first Abaza, going beyond the instructions given to him, visited the Jauréguiberry, and then in his report to Tyrtovu he underestimated both the cost of the battleship and the time it would take to build.
    And if, regarding the amount he named, one can still assume that he did not know all the nuances, then he could not have been unaware of when Jauréguiberry was mortgaged.
    But if he still didn’t know, then he ate his bread in vain.
  16. +4
    5 February 2026 17: 18
    I thought
    Extremely interesting, How was it? The battle between the Vladivostok detachment and Kamimura's cruisers in the Korean Strait would have been different if the Gromoboy had twelve-inch turret guns.

    No way. With guns like those, they'd keep him in Port Arthur...
    1. +2
      5 February 2026 20: 36
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      No way. With guns like those, they'd keep him in Port Arthur...

      And there was even less point in letting him go free with the casemates. Line him up! wink
      1. 0
        6 February 2026 11: 57
        Quote: Saxahorse
        And with the casemates, there was even less sense in letting them go free.

        I'm afraid I didn't catch it...