Military Review

What will be the sixth generation fighter? Check out the fifth generation fighter in the war

74
What will be the sixth generation fighter? Check out the fifth generation fighter in the war

Not so long ago, the US Navy at the aerospace conference presented a "principled concept" of the sixth generation fighter company Boeing, which immediately caused heated debate, mil.huanqiu.com reports on April 24.


Currently, fifth-generation fighters, such as the F-22 fighter created in addition to the F-35, are facing an "endless stream of technical problems," technological demonstrators of the Russian T-50 and the Chinese J-20 (in the photo) are still in the flight tests, other countries are planning to develop machines of the fifth generation "only on paper."

American companies Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, Boeing, as well as other aerospace giants are eyeing the possibility of creating a sixth generation fighter. To create a promising combat aircraft that would meet the requirements of 2030-2060's air and sea wars, variable-duty engines, a full range of stealth technologies over the entire radio wave range, artificial intelligence and unmanned aircraft technology are considered as key technologies. Russia even expressed a more conservative assumption that the sixth generation fighter would “grow” straight from the fifth as its modernization.

It seems that the competition for the sixth generation has already started. Different visions are expressed, for example, an unmanned fighter capable of operating both in the air and in space, and equipped with high-energy laser weapons, but the current level of technological development pours a tub of cold water on such enthusiasts.

Remote control unmanned fighter

An unmanned fighter can maneuver with significantly higher overloads due to the absence of a pilot, and may be smaller than a manned fighter. But the dynamic situation in air combat, including the need to evade enemy missiles, requires a quick reaction. A computer with artificial intelligence that plays Go can perform billions of operations per second, but cannot compete with human intelligence in speed of decision making. In addition, control of an unmanned fighter for a thousand kilometers inevitably entails delays in sending control signals. You say that the speed of electromagnetic waves is equal to the speed of light, what's with the delay? In fact, the sending of signals on board an intensively maneuvering fighter will inevitably come with some delay. Even the use of an early warning aircraft as a control platform will not eliminate this problem. It is also stated that the F / A-XX pilot can control several UAVs, but the enemy can use strong electronic interference, which can interrupt contact with the UAVs from the manned fighter.

Speed ​​and height

When developing fighters of the second-third generations, the task was set to achieve the highest possible maximum speed, the fourth generation did not set such tasks, and on the fifth generation the speed factor was generally considered secondary. However, in the development of machines of the sixth generation, the factor “speed - height” may rise.

In 2009, the United States Air Force initiated the creation of turbofans with variable duty cycles, which in principle can give the fighter speed 4-5М. At the same time, fantastic requirements emerged so that the fighter of a new generation could reach near-Earth space. The United States created several prototypes of hypersonic devices at speeds above 5M. Reusable unmanned spacecraft X-37 Orbiter can perform the role of a space fighter.

But if you see a picture of how a space fighter emerges into the atmosphere and hits aerial targets, this is, of course, beautiful, but such an application is tantamount to shooting sparrows from anti-aircraft guns. Worse, ordinary fighter jets can fire a space enemy as they enter the atmosphere. For example, the United States using an anti-satellite missile launched from an F-15 fighter can destroy a satellite in low-Earth orbit.

Maneuverability

It is believed that the new fighter can be equipped with revolutionary combat systems such as directional energy weapons (lasers) and hypersonic kinetic weapons. For years, the United States Air Force experienced an ABL airborne laser aboard a Boeing-747, but did not achieve significant results.

The difficulty of defeating a fighter with a laser weapon lies in the fact that its dimensions are very small, moreover, it can maneuver intensively. To hit a narrow laser beam in such a goal is very problematic, besides, the beam must affect the target for at least 12 seconds to cause its destruction. Thus, the "laser artillery" has its significant drawbacks.

Anti stealth

Fighters of the sixth generation must have a high level of stealth technology to hide the aircraft in the entire spectrum of radio waves, as well as in the optical spectrum. But even the Americans felt that a stealth fighter is a very expensive car, and attempts to achieve stealth in the optical spectrum will be even more expensive.

In the foreseeable future, with the development of electronic technology, the “invisibility” of stealth aircraft will be more and more unsteady. For example, the deployment of a multi-radar network has shown that such a system is capable of detecting stealth aircraft.

Information that the United States Air Force a few years ago conducted a computer simulation of F-22 air battles with fourth-generation F-15 and F-16 fighters (144: 0 score) in real battles can never be achieved.

What will be the sixth generation of fighters? To answer this question, wait for the moment when fifth-generation fighters "will undergo the baptism of war." Then the answer will be clear, the Chinese source believes.
Originator:
http://mil.huanqiu.com/observation/2013-04/3862042.html
Photos used:
http://allday.ru
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  1. Sibiryak
    Sibiryak 2 May 2013 06: 32 New
    15
    Not so long ago, the US Navy at the aerospace conference presented a "principled concept" of the sixth generation fighter company Boeing, which immediately caused heated debate, mil.huanqiu.com reports on April 24.

    First you bring your 5 generation junk to mind!
    1. Refund_SSSR
      Refund_SSSR 2 May 2013 07: 48 New
      12
      So this will be the completion of the 5th generation.
      in the best case, it will be the 5+ generation and the ability to work in unmanned mode, and the capital one is just a bluff, like the 5th generation Iranian and Chinese fighter today. And Khryaptor himself is also a machine that has never been in real contact battle with a real, equal or superior enemy, and not bombing of banana republics in greenhouse conditions.
      Similarly, their lasers ...
      This is an attempt to draw into the next arms race.
      But the Russian is already smart and does not bite on a bare hook, and the Chinese have not yet matured.
      Well, a new way to cut the dough ...
      In general, Amer is not a classification.

      Очень символичная фотография в статье - Кукурузник в небе а хряптор на земле... Ведь и на самом деле так оно и есть, в небе у амеров находящийся предыдущие поколения, а новое на земле... "Рожденный ползать..."
      1. Gemar
        Gemar 2 May 2013 08: 17 New
        25
        Quote: We refund_SSSR
        attempt to draw into the next arms race.

        No, we will not lead to the sixth generation. No. We are the fifth, 5+ and 5 ++ we want to trade!
        As an answer to the 6th generation, let's design flying saucers! good
        I would suggest creating this plate subsonic, with built-in dynamic protection and serious active protection. In short, so that all attacking ammunition could be neutralized by the aircraft themselves. Protection should be at the tank level (figs with it that the combat radius will be the same as the tank wassat ). Производство развернем на Уралвагонзаводе. На удивленные возгласы западной и китайской публики, ответим, что данная тарелка является очередной глубокой модернизацией Т-72, созданной в нижнетагильском «Уральском КБ Транспортного машиностроения». Пусть трепещут "партнеры"! soldier
        1. patline
          patline 2 May 2013 09: 42 New
          +7
          But what is the sixth generation Nafik? Until there is a stable and safe communication channel from outside interference, then it’s not worth talking about the sixth generation.
          Unless, this sixth generation will again be used against savages where there are no adequate countermeasures. And the meaning of this sixth generation is immediately lost, according to the savages it is possible to work from the Messerschmites of the Second World .... smile
        2. gladysheff2010
          gladysheff2010 2 May 2013 13: 44 New
          +1
          Thank you, my friend! Neighing from the heart!
          1. Gemar
            Gemar 2 May 2013 17: 02 New
            +2
            Quote: gladysheff2010
            Thank you buddy!

            drinks Glad to!
            Quote: gladysheff2010
            Neighing from the heart!

            Зря... я на полном серьезе предлагаю поставить танк "на крыло"! laughing And I even consider it obligatory to make loopholes for firing from personal weapons! soldier
            1. crazyrom
              crazyrom 21 May 2013 04: 59 New
              0
              They think it's an iPhone, you can release a new one every year ...
      2. zennon
        zennon 2 May 2013 09: 35 New
        -4
        Actually, the official J-20 on earth, but also a ram.
        1. Explore
          Explore 2 May 2013 10: 40 New
          10
          Yeah, and behind is an old plane with US Air Force identification marks.
          This is an F-22. Chinese J-20 is made taking into account IFIs and has PGO.
        2. kenvas
          kenvas 2 May 2013 10: 43 New
          +4
          No, actually it’s a crawler, not a J-20
        3. Gemar
          Gemar 2 May 2013 10: 45 New
          +4
          Quote: zennon
          Actually, on the ground, the official J-20

          На земле "Раптор", а не J-20! Вы наверное прочитали в статье
          demonstrators of the Russian T-50 and Chinese J-20 (pictured)

          On the J-20, the Chinese used PGO and all-turning vertical plumage. Plus air intakes like on the F-35.
          1. zennon
            zennon 2 May 2013 11: 14 New
            +4
            Yes, I’m sorry, I didn’t consider it. The view is not successful. The snout, his mother ... hi
            As for the 6th generation, there is not only a look, but even a concept of application. In addition, R&D based on the next stage in the development of materials science, element base, etc. is not needed. Yes and cabbage is not measured. .
            1. Gemar
              Gemar 2 May 2013 12: 18 New
              +2
              Quote: zennon
              Yes, I'm sorry, I did not consider

              hi It happens! +++
              Quote: zennon
              As for the 6th generation, there is not only the appearance, but even the concept of application

              But the USA already has advertising!
            2. gladysheff2010
              gladysheff2010 2 May 2013 14: 01 New
              +2
              Yes, there is already the sixth laughing
              1. Gemar
                Gemar 2 May 2013 17: 58 New
                0
                Quote: gladysheff2010
                Yes, there is already the sixth

                Moreover, vertical take-off and landing! wink
                But will there be a double ... pah, that is, a double combat training option? wassat
        4. patsantre
          patsantre 2 May 2013 13: 35 New
          0
          Not yours, not yours, go play cars better.
    2. Rus2012
      2 May 2013 11: 11 New
      +7
      Quote: Sibiryak
      First you bring your 5 generation junk to mind!


      The United States wants to remain a trendsetter in aviation fashion ...
      But, the Chinese are right that the appearance of the 6 generation will arise from the fights of the aircraft of the 5 generation.
      And no one is yet able to imagine what it will be like.
      It is gratifying that Russia did not fall out of the process of creating new generations of aircraft.
      It’s hard, sometimes with a traditional Russian obscenity, new technology is forged ...
      Помню, как лет семь назад наши рукопожатные либералы с пеной у рта писсались на американские ф22 и приводили пресловутый счет "144:0". Однако, время всё раставляет по местам... "Чудо техника" так и не показала ещё свои "супервозможности" в реальных боях. Наши 4++ говорят, могут с ними тягатся.
      ... what the 6 generation will be, we don’t know, but with a great deal of confidence we can say - and there will be a decent Russian answer to it!
      Our answer!
      1. Odysseus
        Odysseus 2 May 2013 13: 13 New
        +2
        Quote: Rus2012
        Помню, как лет семь назад наши рукопожатные либералы с пеной у рта писсались на американские ф22 и приводили пресловутый счет "144:0"

        Your thoughts are not entirely clear. What is the attitude of the US Air Force exercises (by the way, the score was 241-2) to the delights of the liberals?
        After all, there American planes trained with American ones.
        What to admire?
        And why should liberals be enthusiastic about the Americans?
        Although I am not a liberal, maybe I don’t understand something ...
        1. Rus2012
          2 May 2013 13: 33 New
          +1
          Quote: Odyssey
          What relation do the U.S. Air Force exercises (by the way, the score was 241-2 by the way) have liberals delighted?

          ...уточнюсь - под "либералами" в данном случае имелось в виду поклонники техники USA, как прогрессивной страны приверженца "демократических ценностей".
          В известном военном форуме т.н. штатные или заштатные тролли с пеной у рта доказывали превосходства "всего ненашего"-ф117,ф22 и как они в пух разнесут в гипотетических столкновениях нашу авиацию. Там же хаяли и поносили что мы никогда не создадим 5 поколение, если и создадим-то это будет лампово-напильнико-ломоинструмент...
    3. Aryan
      Aryan 2 May 2013 11: 49 New
      0
      What will be the sixth generation fighter?
      Elementary Watson!
      Between the fifth generation and the seventh! hi
    4. GHG
      GHG 2 May 2013 13: 57 New
      +1
      Нет толком 5-го,а уже замах на 6-е.Беспилотные истребители...просто фантастика.Человечество уже близко,а порой уже в тупике своего развития.Мы не супер мены,это к вопросу о достигнутых перегрузок.К слову о беспилотных полётах,так более перспективно с таким же усехом можно использовать телекинез.Не судите строго но 6-е поколение туфта,по крайней мере у нас(людей)нет технологий которые бы могли полностью раскрыть весь потенциал "железа".Нужны новые познания в областях Физики,химии и т.п. и т.д.
      1. GHG
        GHG 2 May 2013 19: 31 New
        +1
        As always, I’ll write stupidly ... THE PILOT WILL WIN
  2. vjatsergey
    vjatsergey 2 May 2013 06: 36 New
    +1
    Ну теперь начнётся гонка у кого будет круче цифра перед словом "поколения". Скоро седьмого или восьмого поколения кто-нибудь начнёт разрабатывать.
  3. svp67
    svp67 2 May 2013 06: 42 New
    +1
    What will be the sixth generation of fighters? To answer this question, wait for the moment when fifth-generation fighters "will undergo the baptism of war." Then the answer will be clear, the Chinese source believes.
    And you can’t disagree with him, but you can already do some sort of sketching now ... and there are a lot of chances that he will be unmanned. what
  4. dld35057
    dld35057 2 May 2013 06: 49 New
    12
    I think that the 6th generation is an engine based on new physical principles. and so, everything before this is polishing existing technologies and whatever you call it - it is the 5th generation.
    1. Bombowoz
      Bombowoz 2 May 2013 06: 54 New
      +2
      In-in! Which will inevitably lead to a change in the shape of the aircraft.
    2. Fregate
      Fregate 2 May 2013 12: 31 New
      +1
      Quote: dld35057
      I think that the 6th generation is an engine based on new physical principles. and so, everything before this is polishing existing technologies and whatever you call it - it is the 5th generation.

      Yes, I also think that the 6th generation should be fundamentally different from its predecessors.
      1. Thunderbolt
        Thunderbolt 2 May 2013 13: 38 New
        0
        ИМХО,х-47в на данный момент сейчас можно назвать прототипом 6-ого поколения.И над "небесной сетью" упахиваються в США,чтобы обеспечить себе превосходство в воздухе.
  5. Renat
    Renat 2 May 2013 07: 55 New
    +2
    По поводу технологии стелс. Помнится в Югославии сбили подобный "невидимый" самолет и на обломках натянули плакат "Извините, мы не знали что ты невидимый".
    1. patsantre
      patsantre 2 May 2013 13: 48 New
      0
      Сколько можно Югославию вспоминать?То,что стелс "несбиваем" это лишь рекламная марка,на деле же мы видим всего 1 сбитый самолёт,к тому же обнаруженный метровым радаром и неизвестно при каких условиях,так что выводы делать явно не вам.
    2. Pimply
      Pimply 2 May 2013 14: 33 New
      +2
      Сбили. Один. С большими усилиями. И благодаря больше догадливости одних и разгильдяйству других. Нет полностью невидимых самолетов, нет абсолютных систем ПВО. Везде есть лазейки. Так вот, "невидимки" полностью невидимыми позиционировали разве что журналисты. Просто технология стелс максимально затрудняет обнаружение такого самолета. Вот и все. А об эффективности ее можно сказать, что самолет был сбит один. Не летай они бомбить по расписанию и по одному маршруту - то не сбили бы ни одного.
  6. erased
    erased 2 May 2013 09: 15 New
    +3
    The conclusion of the article is correct, only practice will determine the further development of technology. Anyone from a pistol to an airplane.
  7. GreatRussia
    GreatRussia 2 May 2013 09: 57 New
    +2
    Then the answer will be clear, believes chinese source.

    Something the Chinese have recently fussed about.
    Did you smell something?
    Не могут определиться, у кого какие технологии скитаезить для своего супер-пупер "стелса"? smile
  8. APASUS
    APASUS 2 May 2013 09: 58 New
    +1
    They want to cram so much into it ......... yes there are still no such technologies on the ground, but the price will be prohibitive !!!
    Although why should the Americans cry? left the workers for a couple of nights - they will print !!!
    1. Kaa
      Kaa 2 May 2013 13: 13 New
      +1
      Quote: APASUS
      They want to cram so much into it
      " "Агентство передовых оборонных исследовательских проектов DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) министерства обороны США изучает концепцию нового поколения истребителей в рамках инициативы по обеспечению превосходства в воздухе (new air dominance initiative), которая должна дать результаты в следующем бюджетном году, сообщает flightglobal.com 25 апреля.Директор Агентства Арати Прабхакар (Arati Prabhakar, на фото) говорит, что исследования по созданию нового истребителя завоевания превосходства в воздухе были инициированы в результате обсуждения этой темы с руководителем Управления закупок Пентагона Фрэнком Кендаллом (Frank Kendall), когда она заняла этот пост в прошлом году. «Во время этих разговоров мы обсудили тему и подумали над тем, как продлить превосходство США в воздухе», сказала она. Прабхакар сделала уточнение, что не будет какой-то одной революционной технологии («серебряной пули»), которая может дать гарантии превосходства в воздухе в ближайшие три-четыре десятилетия.Пентагон считает, что необходимо начать изучение передовых технологий по этой тематике, потому что угрозы будущих войн будут гораздо более опасными, с чем США столкнулись после окончания холодной войны.
      Prabhakar said that DARPA “has deliberately chosen a systematic approach” to this problem, and that this approach is to study the full range of promising technologies. DARPA conducts research in conjunction with experts from the US Air Force and Navy. The promising technologies of the sixth generation fighter cover such areas as network technologies and communications, control of electromagnetic radiation in all ranges of the electromagnetic spectrum, manned and unmanned technologies will be combined into one complex, a large role is given to interaction with space-based means. Over the past months, work has been carried out intensively, says the head of the Agency. Preliminary work results may influence decision-making in the budget process for 2015.http: //www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/darpa-working-on-sixth-generation-
      figh
      1. mabuta
        mabuta 2 May 2013 14: 00 New
        0
        Kaa US Department of Defense is exploring the concept of a new generation of fighters as part of an initiative to ensure air superiority
        Are they already in doubt? request laughing
        1. APASUS
          APASUS 2 May 2013 21: 02 New
          0
          Quote: mabuta
          Are they already in doubt?

          Money is printing !!
  9. genzik161
    genzik161 2 May 2013 10: 11 New
    +3
    The guys are the same Americans. They have everything. As in Hollywood, the main thing is to launch a cartoon that we are ready.
  10. Canep
    Canep 2 May 2013 10: 19 New
    +1
    There is no 5th generation fighter in the world, and the Americans have swung at the 6th. There is no need to remind about the F-22 F-F35, these are not fighters, they are just planes, because they did not destroy more than one enemy aircraft. No one knows how they will show themselves in battle.
    1. patsantre
      patsantre 2 May 2013 13: 57 New
      +1
      Peter the Great, too, did not sink one ship, so he is not a cruiser, but just a boat?
  11. Ak 12
    Ak 12 2 May 2013 11: 08 New
    -1
    Another drank budget
  12. Roll
    Roll 2 May 2013 11: 36 New
    0
    fellow The fighter must first of all meet the assigned tasks. For example, here are some chatlanes who write that the Chinese ji is 20 g - but this is not so. Ji 20 is an analogue of the Su 30 fighter bomber, not a fighter gaining superiority. Its task is to inflict covert attacks on Amer’s bases and ships. Why would he need supersonic cruising speed, if he could fly over the ocean, and at the stage of attack he could cut it, why would he need super maneuverability, if after the attack he could flee on a shaver. In general, the 5th generation fighter’s parameters were thought up for duel fights and knocking dough. for their neglect of the Chinese, they are planning a wide range of 5th generation aircraft and, moreover, fighting horses. Ji 20, ji 31 ​​light fighter, gaining superiority and stealth on the basis of su 27 following the example of amers from f 15. Also, drying 27 had its tail bent like f 18, put an unreleased flashlight and made internal weapons and comfortable tanks. This will most likely result in a very sensible and inexpensive heavy fighter with most elements of the 5th generation. And the Chinese have more prototypes than our pack fa.
    1. Gemar
      Gemar 2 May 2013 12: 14 New
      +3
      Quote: Rolm
      here are some chatlana write that the Chinese ji is 20 g - but this is not so.
      And the Chinese have more prototypes than our pack fa.
      But the Chinese still have 4 blocks of dynamic protection, and the duck’s nose is prettier, unfortunately ours, compared to the Chinese, looks completely shitty, just like an ugly duckling.
      China is wandering, I’ll buy 5 pieces per sample, there are no defective ones and no substandard ones. That's the problem we are ready to sell, and he thinks whether he needs such a treasure, although he has the dough, that the fool has a mooch.
      there are different scenarios, for example, riots and commissioning at the invitation of the government of the Chinese peacekeeping forces. Here we are completely out of work.
      And as you do not allow the occupation of Kazakhstan by China, by the 2020 year, China will grow stronger, and its tank divisions will be ready to occupy Kazakhstan in a month.
      We have no chance to defend Kazakhstan, only to share with China.
      It is imperative for China to sell both Su 35 and 400 and, moreover, to closely cooperate with it, we are friends.
      Dynamic protection is placed correctly, here we copied the Chinese.
      Under the vigorous Chinese medium-range missiles aimed at the European part of Russia you can’t show off much.
      And why nothing has been said about Ji 20 and Ji 31. Here they even overtake us already. Our pack fa has been moved for another year. Of course, they still have small problems with the engines, but for now.
      And the Chinese have more prototypes than our pack fa.
      And the Chinese will destroy the drying at the airport.
      They have their own ji 20 and ji 31 ​​are not bad.
      As for su 35, if China considers su 35 to be a modernization of su 27, it will legally copy it.
      In addition, there is Ukraine, Belarus, in general, China has a lot to buy without us. Therefore, you need to sell to the maximum and even with technology.
      China needs to sell the most modern weapons and not think about the consequences
      As for the courage of the Russian soldier, this topic is debatable.

      VERDICT:
      Только за фразу "Что касается храбрости Русского солдата эта тема спорна" уже можно расстреливать!
      间谍 该死!
      1. Roll
        Roll 2 May 2013 14: 27 New
        -6
        love Hey . patriotism is also different, in 40-41 those who said that Germany would attack us were also considered alarmists and were sometimes shot at your advice. But there was nothing good about it. As for the courage of a Russian soldier, about 15 percent had it, and this is indisputable, and the assertion that any Russian soldier is, in my opinion, brave stupidity. The ability to objectively see events, alas, is not given to everyone.
        1. family tree
          family tree 2 May 2013 15: 05 New
          +1
          Quote: Rolm
          love Hey . patriotism is also different, in 40-41 those who said that Germany would attack us were also considered alarmists and were sometimes shot at your advice. But there was nothing good about it. As for the courage of a Russian soldier, about 15 percent had it, and this is indisputable, and the assertion that any Russian soldier is, in my opinion, brave stupidity. The ability to objectively see events, alas, is not given to everyone.

          Why did Vissarionitch not shoot himself after speaking to students of military academies on May 5, 1941? request
        2. Gemar
          Gemar 2 May 2013 16: 55 New
          +2
          Quote: Rolm
          Hey .

          hi
          Quote: Rolm
          patriotism is also different

          Уж не свой ли призыв к продаже Су-35 и С-400 Вы приписали к патриотизму? Китай гордится своим умением хранить в тайне свои "ноу хау" намного больше умения узнавать чужие тайны. А Вы призываете делиться и любезничать с ним, как весь Мир блеял перед немцами боясь 2-ой Мировой. Ханьцы считают нас за недочеловеков (поверьте тому, кто прожил в КНР, в разных городах, почти 10 лет), а Вы утверждаете, что Вам присуще
          Quote: Rolm
          The ability to objectively see events

          And, mind you, I do not pretend to be absolutely objective, I just cover what I myself and my friends came across.
          Quote: Rolm
          the statement that any Russian soldier is in my opinion brave stupidity.
          Покажите мне того человека, который утверждал, что "любой Русский солдат храбрый" - я первым брошу в него камень. И не Вам, уважаемый, писать про глупость. "германия" и "Русский" - я достаточно прозрачно намекнул???
          And more ... Try to prove to the Chinese that they would not have won the war with the Japanese without external help - at best they will call you an ignoramus, at worst, they will fill your face.
          Do not be offended, dear, if you hurt you. Just at the same time call for the sale of China's most modern weapons with technology and not think about the consequences ... Call for sharing Kazakhstan with China ... And at the same time claim that
          Quote: Rolm
          patriotism is also different

          THIS IS THE TOP OF CINISM AND RESPECT! Disrespect for Russians, Russians, Kazakhs.
          Be calm if China attacks Kazakhstan - this will be his last mistake. And by the number of Russian / Russian volunteers, you will understand that more than 15 percent have courage ... and not only among Russians!
          Sincerely, Korefan (Chinese Gamar wink )
        3. Setrac
          Setrac 2 May 2013 20: 27 New
          0
          Quote: Rolm
          Hey . patriotism is also different, in 40-41 those who said that Germany would attack us were also considered alarmists and were sometimes shot at your advice.

          You just don't know the story. Stalin knew that the Germans would attack, the question was to delay this moment. Stalin even knew DATE, and what could he do? The army catastrophically did not have time to turn around! Stalin should every locomotive shoulder push to accelerate? Losing the USSR in deploying the army THREE times due to logistics, you can’t compensate for this! PUT YOUR PLAN on how to forestall Germany!
    2. patsantre
      patsantre 2 May 2013 14: 07 New
      +2
      Quote: Rolm
      stealth on the basis of su 27 following the example of amers from f 15. Also at drying 27 they bred their tail like f 18, put a non-binding flashlight and made internal weapons and comfortable tanks. This will most likely result in a very sensible and inexpensive heavy fighter with most elements of the 5th generation. And the Chinese have more prototypes than our pack fa.


      But this, excuse me, did you come up with yourself, or did I miss something?
      1. Roll
        Roll 2 May 2013 14: 21 New
        -1
        belay Hi, how many prototypes we have in pack fa-4, and the Chinese have 6 prototypes of ji 20 and at least 1 ji 31. And that is more than 7 or 4. Then our program for pack fa was transferred for a year, and the Chinese are all according to plan.
        1. vadson
          vadson 2 May 2013 15: 48 New
          0
          where infa on the number of aircraft? in the public domain of the pact 4 flies + 2 on the ground are tested. j-20 4 aircraft.
        2. Gemar
          Gemar 2 May 2013 17: 53 New
          +1
          Quote: Rolm
          and the Chinese are all according to plan.

          Everything is according to plan ... We will buy the Su-35, we will reduce the avionics technology and engines from there, install it on the Zh-20 ... and call it completely Chinese development, superior to foreign analogues.
          Quote: Rolm
          And that is more than 7 or 4.

          The Zh-20 is a prototype, not a finished aircraft, like the Zh-31, like the PAK FA, like ... MiG 1.42, like the Su-47. First, then we have 3 different prototypes, China has only 2. We count 4 + 2 t-50 + 1 MiG 1.42 + 1 Su-47 = 8.
          And what is more than 8 or 7? tongue
        3. patsantre
          patsantre 2 May 2013 22: 05 New
          -1
          I actually spoke with the stealth you invented on the basis of the 27th.
  13. dizelniy
    dizelniy 2 May 2013 12: 02 New
    +6
    История развития ИА показывает, что совершенствование образцов техники происходит эволюционным путём.Исходя из суммы затраченных средств, развёрнутые технологические линии, ожидать революции в этой сфере в ближайшие 30 лет не стоит. Беспилотный истребитель нужно рассматривать как вспомогательное средство, для одиночного перехвата, испекции неопознаных целей, для ограниченного применения. Война в воздухе это прежде всего, тактическое построение авиации в определённые боевые порядки и группы, с маневрированием, в том числе с предельными аэродинамическими параметрами. Сохранять тактическое взаимодействие, перенацеливаться пока могут только пилотируемые истребители. Роль скорости в числе боевых характеристик остаётся значительной, особенно на малых высотах. Способность выполнять полёт на сверхзвуке у земли важнейшая характеристика истребителя. Маневренные свайства истребителей с изменяемым вектором тяги пока в тактическом плане не разработаны и не осознаны. Очевидно это значительно изменит тактику маневренных воздушных боёв, что потребует пересмотра этого раздела тактики ИА. Потребуется изменить статус лётчиков летающих по таким программам. Следует учитывать тот факт, что маневреные характеристики и работоспособность пилота наиболие полно реализуются на скоростях мение 700 км/часс. На большич скоростях самолёт выходит на предельную по прочности перегрузку, что близко к потере работоспособности лётчиком. Прчность такоеже ограничение и для БПЛА. Такие маневры требуют также повышенного расхода топлива. Пилотирование на скорстях близким к эволютивной обеспечивает сокращение времени маневра и постояный контроль за тактической обстановкой. Экзотические виды средств поражения рассматривать просто не коректно. "Кинетическое" оружие в переводе на русский - камень.Лазерное летающий Днепрогес. Малозаметность сегодня является непрекрытым способом увеличения стоимости НИОКР и серийных изделий. Польза от этого есть, но она во многом расчитанна на использование в чистой дуэльной ситуации.При столкновении военных блоков применение помех из боевых порядков или из зоны сводит на нет данную характеристику. Сегодня это больше играет на политический престиж государства и спокойствие союзников. Много говорится о том, что малозаметные истребители в четыре раза эффективней истребителей 3-го поколения. Представим полёт на задание Т-50 и 4 МиГ-23мла. Происходит одиночный успешный выстрел с земли по каждой группе.Падает Т-50, задача не выполнена. Во втором случае падает один МиГ-23мла. Задача выполняется остальными на 75%. Проецируя всё это на просторы нашей Родины следует признать, нам в большем количестве нужны относительно не дорогие истребители и ограниченная группировка "навороченных".
    1. Gemar
      Gemar 2 May 2013 12: 37 New
      +2
      Quote: dizelniy
      Проецируя всё это на просторы нашей Родины следует признать, нам в большем количестве нужны относительно не дорогие истребители и ограниченная группировка "навороченных".

      I agree! +++
      Только "ограниченная группировка" не должна быть сильно ограничена. Иначе страны, у которых группировка "навороченных" истребителей не сильно ограничена не будут нас ни во что ставить.
      Quote: dizelniy
      Imagine the flight to the task of the T-50 and 4 MiG-23ml.

      Here the comparison is not entirely correct. T-50 must fight with the 5th generation aircraft. And where its capabilities are redundant, budget options should be applied.
      And in general, you forgot that the 5th generation provides the pilot with better survival. And this, you see, is the most basic task! Therefore, you need to seriously address the topic of drones. hi
      1. dizelniy
        dizelniy 2 May 2013 13: 34 New
        +1
        Regarding survival. The winners are those who are ready to die, not mindlessly of course. The fighter takes off to repel the enemy’s attack, and here we are not talking about the equivalent exchange of damage levels. The weakest side of our air defense is the lack of theory and practice of interaction between ZRV and IA developed and embodied in metal and combat documents . If you remember it stretches from Paursa. Decisiveness is good, but who will take the second flight?
    2. Odysseus
      Odysseus 2 May 2013 13: 22 New
      +2
      Quote: dizelniy
      There is benefit from this, but it is largely designed for use in a pure dueling situation.

      The whole point of stealth is to increase the likelihood of completing a combat mission by reducing the possibility of detection. What does the dueling situation have to do with it?
      Пока был один и достаточно успешный опыт применения "стелс" машин-F-117. Но там не было ни одной дуэльной ситуации.
      Quote: dizelniy
      Imagine the flight to the task of the T-50 and 4 MiG-23ml. There is a single successful shot from the ground for each group.

      The meaning of the T-50 is that, unlike the Mig-23, successful shots should not be.
      Quote: dizelniy
      Проецируя всё это на просторы нашей Родины следует признать, нам в большем количестве нужны относительно не дорогие истребители и ограниченная группировка "навороченных".

      It all depends on what goals the state faces and, accordingly, what opponents it has.
      1. dizelniy
        dizelniy 2 May 2013 13: 37 New
        +1
        Stealth is considered when confronting on the opposite courses without interference from two opposing fighters.
      2. Gemar
        Gemar 2 May 2013 16: 20 New
        +1
        Quote: Odyssey
        The meaning of the T-50 is that, unlike the Mig-23, successful shots should not be.

        dizelniy считает, что в выживаемости главный принцип "быть готовым умереть". Отчасти это верное утверждение. Однако, не стоит забывать про новейшие системы, присущие только самолетам 5-го поколения - малозаметность, новейшие катапультные кресла, современная мощная система РЭБ. Все это явно превосходит аналогичные системы на более дешевых ЛА, а, следовательно, увеличивает выживаемость. И выживаемость, я уточняю, главное для летчика, а не для системы. Летчиков на конвейере не выпускают.
        Quote: Odyssey
        Пока был один и достаточно успешный опыт применения "стелс" машин-F-117

        Не совсем уместный пример. F-117 - ударный самолет. И "драться" на дуэли ему не к лицу. Мы же не станем рассматривать дуэль Су-24 и F-15, верно? Да и на счет успешного опыта можно усомниться. F-117 действовал в условиях практически отсутствовавшей ПВО, а как только открыл створки бомбоотсека, был обнаружен и сбит (Югославаия). Если бы США сами были уверены в его "неуязвимости", то не стали бы снимать с вооружения.
    3. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 2 May 2013 20: 40 New
      0
      The words of a specialist. But. Improving the patterns is true. But the development of aviation is happening in a revolutionary way. So far, mainly changes in the principle of operation of engines. Americans simply use their marketing (vile deceit) to the maximum - say, give money for the next generation. It is better already because the following!
      А вот не пора ли совершать очередную революцию? Причем на этот раз не принципом действия движка. Для человека, действительно, 700-800 км/ч уже и хватит. Может быть, пора вообще посмотреть на авиацию свежим взглядом? Изменить сами принципы воздушного боя, учитывая, к примеру, тот факт, что современная техника способна делать двигатели, да и вообще любые приводы, любого размера при высочайших характеристиках? Сейчас вообще можно относительно недорого изготовить что угодно, просто все, что в голову взбредет. И это "что угодно" будет летать, причем на огромных скоростях и с немалой дальностью.
      Remembering that our goal is generally never a plane. The goal is air supremacy! It is necessary not to endlessly finish off a certain topic, it is necessary to have an undeniable advantage in the sky. There is something to think about ...
  14. Prishtina
    Prishtina 2 May 2013 13: 03 New
    -1
    Мда.. ни когда не понимал эту градацию поколений.. мода от Запада. Лично для меня есть 2 поколения. /1-е "турбовинтовые/ прим. от братьев Райт до конца ВОВ. и 2-е истребители на реактивной тяге. 3-е поколение должно также иметь принципиальные отличи от 2-го... как истребитель ВОВ от истребителя времен войны в Корее. То что сейчас _3,4,5 это поэтапная эволюция и не белее.
  15. rudolff
    rudolff 2 May 2013 13: 14 New
    +5
    По поводу F-35. У нас уже стало доброй традицией посмеиваться над этой машиной, хотя о его реальном боевом потенциале практически ничего неизвестно. На Aviation Explorer (www.aex.ru) 26 апреля была размещена статья "Меняющий правила игры: F-35 и тихоокеанский регион". Кому тема интересна, гляньте. В чем-то статья спорна, но заставляет почесать затылок. Если кто разместит ее на здешней лужайке, дискуссия гарантированна. Попробуйте: www.aex.ru/fdocs/1/2013/4/26/22981/
  16. cherkas.oe
    cherkas.oe 2 May 2013 13: 42 New
    0
    In general, there’s nothing to discuss, the Amers have a creative itch about the 6th generation from the fact that they by and large did not work out in the sense that they originally laid in it. And now they see that the Russians, having learned from their mistakes, create a car much closer in characteristics to the ideal of the 5th and it’s sausage, they can’t say that they screwed up with the 5th and beat the loot for a better version , so we launched the company on the 6th. Everything as usual.
  17. zennon
    zennon 2 May 2013 13: 47 New
    0
    I would like to draw the attention of respected colleagues to a question that few people raise. MONEY. It's no secret that every next pepelats costs any country much more expensive than the previous one. Mattresses, actively occupying all over the world, managed to collect 30 trillion green ones in 14 years. that I’m afraid to make a mistake and write in letters. Their current debt is approaching 16 trillion. They reached the level of +1 trillion. in 1,5 years! It cannot go on forever. request В результате появилось презанимательное выражовывание "секвестр бюджета".А это куда серьёзнее любых прожектов.У меня серьёзные сомнения,что они 5-е поколение доведут до строевых частей в том объёме,который планировали.Нам бы тоже не повредило почаще заглядывать в свой кошелёк. what
  18. Tu-214R
    Tu-214R 2 May 2013 14: 18 New
    -1
    Cut - a trend that knows no boundaries.
  19. shinobi
    shinobi 2 May 2013 14: 49 New
    -1
    Чегойто я не догоняю,если F-22 такой"ах ваащеее" (144:0),то на кой пентагон запускает прогу по модернизации тактического тандема F-15\F-16?Про то что у раптора перед сушками строевых версий нет преимуществ сами амеры признаются,акромя радиозаметности.Что в ближнем бою,на дистанции пушечного выстрела,бесполезно.Как они собираются проектировать 6 поколение если вояки с требованиями ещё репу чешут.Думается мне что повторяется недавняя история с "Абрамсами".Чтобы сохранить производство срочно запилить новый девайс и чем дороже тем лучше.
  20. Andrey_K
    Andrey_K 2 May 2013 14: 55 New
    0
    It is not necessary to install lasers on an airplane in order to arm the aircraft itself with laser weapons.
    The aircraft can be used as a repeater.
    To establish on it only a device focusing and redirecting the laser beam, and the laser itself - a ground and stationary (well, or ship) laser — not on the plane, but below — a beam is emitted from the ground and the plane only directs it at the target.
    Then the beam power can be increased so that you do not need those 12 seconds of heating.
    The same repeaters can be installed on airships and covered with a grid of laser beams throughout the country, creating an impenetrable air defense shield.
    True, this is a defensive technology (stationary lasers) and the Pentagon hawks are not interested, but those who do not need to control the rest of the world, but only need to protect themselves from treacherous movements - this can be very promising.
    The same can be applied in the national economy (energy transmission over distance and communication).
    1. vadson
      vadson 2 May 2013 15: 39 New
      +1
      good grass ...
  21. rudolff
    rudolff 2 May 2013 15: 09 New
    +1
    The initially planned program for the re-equipment of its Air Force to the 5th generation equipment will not be fully implemented by the Americans and this is already obvious. Even for them it was a very expensive pleasure. Production of the F-22 Raptor has already been discontinued. Instead of almost 400 machines planned, almost 200 were manufactured, including pre-production ones. The refusal of many states to purchase F-35 in previously agreed volumes will inevitably affect its already considerable cost. So, amid a reduction in the military budget, plans for the release of this equipment will also be revised. Rather, they are already being revised.
  22. 1c-inform-city
    1c-inform-city 2 May 2013 15: 34 New
    0
    In war conditions, you need to think not about wunderwafes, but about unpretentious cheap, technological and modular constructions so that in case of which you can quickly rivet cars of the desired style, and not fill micro chips with buckets for big money.
    1. vadson
      vadson 2 May 2013 16: 01 New
      0
      in in, as the amers do they endure all the air defense, then they iron the earth with all kinds of junk
  23. Vtel
    Vtel 2 May 2013 17: 04 New
    0
    artificial intelligence and technology of unmanned aerial vehicles

    За этим возможно будущее, но не скорое. При все возрастающем увеличении скоростей ЛА, почти мгновенной оценки картины боевого соприкосновения и принятия решения, отсутствие "больного" человеческого фактора и других не менее важных качеств - будущее все же скорее всего за боевыми дронами с искусственным интеллектом большими скоростями и малозаметностью, с заходом в стратосферу, "малый" космос. Но это все пока фантастика, а мы как "всегда" в большом ступоре, ибо развитие нашей микроэлектроники maliciously тормозится, не без участия Запада и наших менеджеров-либералов: Чубайс, Вексельберг и далее длинный список - экрана не хватит, а также нашей "Пятой" колонны. Когда закупаются технологии, которые и в музей уже не примут и все сходит с рук, видимо так кому то надо. А хваленные Сколково и РУСНАНО всего лишь конторы по отмыву денег - вот вам и прогресс. Так что амеры с их электроникой скорее всего смогут построить нечто, а вот мы - это большой вопрос понимаете ли.
    1. dizelniy
      dizelniy 2 May 2013 22: 06 New
      0
      What you offer is a way to increase financial costs without a real practical result and industrial replication for defense purposes.
  24. albatross
    albatross 2 May 2013 17: 13 New
    +2
    Does anyone guess to steal an F-22 to Russia? Following the example of the MiG-25. I think our specialists want to feel it ...
  25. Concept1
    Concept1 2 May 2013 17: 53 New
    0
    With such a geometric progression drank dough on wunderwaffles you can’t get far! F-15 $ 40 million, F-22 $ 200 million, FX 6 generations 1 billion $ belay laughing
  26. rudolff
    rudolff 2 May 2013 17: 57 New
    +3
    F-22 does not work out! They blow dust off him! Even the closest allies refuse to sell. Because of what even quarreled with Australia! And at air shows they demonstrate it in fenced areas under armed guard. They’re not letting anyone near! But if the F-35 ..! There are options! good
  27. sandrmur76
    sandrmur76 2 May 2013 17: 57 New
    0


    Japan in the next five years will begin to develop a new fighter, which some American experts have already attributed to the 6th generation combat aircraft. The new aircraft will receive powerful engines, intelligent on-board systems and will surpass the existing fifth-generation fighters in its capabilities. True, the chances that the Japanese-designed aircraft will be mass-produced are small. In the future, this project may merge with the US, and Japan, as usual, will purchase fighters made in the USA. Everyone wants, not just amers. But this business is not cheap! winked
  28. Simple
    Simple 2 May 2013 19: 48 New
    0
    A little off topic. A video of a Boeing 747 plane crash in Afghanistan was posted on the Internet.


  29. gregor6549
    gregor6549 3 May 2013 05: 51 New
    +1
    To talk about the 6 generation fighters, you need to have a clear idea of ​​the possible war scenarios in those remote times when the 4 and 5 generation fighters will exhaust their resources and will need to be replaced with new models. And no one has such a presentation yet. There are enough fantasies, but there is no clear concept that could be converted into a specific TTZ for a new generation of fighters and it is unlikely to appear soon. And so long as it appears in the world, so many events can happen that the existing views on the methods of conducting military operations and the technical means of ensuring these actions can be radically revised. The military around the world is always preparing to fight the scenarios of past wars. And then the next big war begins, all these preparations, together with Iraqi, Afghan, etc., local experience fly down the drain and have to invent on the go and do something on the knee that we did not think and guessed before. Unless, of course, those who survive will need to invent and do.
  30. il grand casino
    il grand casino 4 May 2013 19: 22 New
    0
    Not so important which, the main thing is ours))) Joke.