Military Review

Rogozin, "Tiger" and "Cornet"

187
Official


A few days ago, Deputy Prime Minister D. Rogozin visited the testing ground of the 106 Guards Airborne Division, located in the Tula Region. During this visit, a lot of events happened and a large number of statements were made, however, the most interesting are the words and deeds that concerned the anti-tank missile systems and their associated systems.

Rogozin, "Tiger" and "Cornet"


The events around the anti-tank complexes began with the fact that the vice-premier was taught a short course of dealing with the Metis-М1 system. After the briefing, Rogozin checked his knowledge on a computer simulator. This was followed by a training launch of a missile from a combat training missile complex, which differs from a full-fledged combat missile only by the presence of a second optical system for the instructor. After some training sessions, the vice-premier under the guidance of instructor G. Epifanov struck a training target - an old tank with a white dot painted on it. As it turned out a little later, Rogozin managed to get exactly the mark on the armor from a distance of two kilometers.

According to the vice-premier, shooting from the Metis-M1 anti-tank complex turned out to be surprisingly easy. As you know, Rogozin is engaged in shooting, but before that he dealt only with rifle weapons. Mastering the anti-tank complex was very simple: after a short briefing and a short practice on a computer simulator, it turned out to be right on target. Rogozin noted that Metis is easy to manage and quite accessible for development during the year of service. Therefore, soldiers-conscripts should not have problems using such systems.

Unfortunately for the deputy prime minister, he managed to make only one launch of the rocket. Pilots participating in the Victory Parade trained in the sky above the training ground at that time, and therefore all firing was temporarily stopped. However, such prohibitions are the exception rather than the rule. According to Captain S. Yakushkin, head of the test site, soldiers shoot at the test site almost every day and no one saves on ammunition. Fighters learn to use existing weapons both in theory and in practice. Yet the head of the landfill complained about the lack of new weapons systems.



One of the exhibits of the improvised exhibition, organized for the arrival of the distinguished guest, was a kind of illustration of the words about constant training. In addition to armored combat vehicles for the landing, there was an armored Tiger vehicle with a combat module installed on it. In the cargo volume of the armored car, two rising structures are installed, on which the Kornet-EM anti-tank missile launchers are fixed. Each launcher has its own devices for aiming and targeting, and can simultaneously carry four transport-launch containers with missiles.

Thus, at the same time on both launchers of this modification, "Tiger" has eight missiles. The same amount is inside the machine and, if necessary, can be placed on launchers. N. Khokhlov, Deputy General Director of the Tula Instrument Design Bureau, who developed anti-tank missiles, said that the calculation of a combat vehicle could prepare them for firing and mount them on launchers without leaving the vehicle. To do this, the launchers are lowered inside the light-armored hull.

Of particular interest are the words of the Commander-in-Chief of the Ground Forces, Colonel General V. Chirkin, concerning the effectiveness of the Tiger machine with the Kornet-EM anti-tank missiles. According to him, one unit of such equipment can destroy up to 16 tanks the enemy, due to which eight vehicles have the same efficiency as the anti-tank artillery division, armed with guns like the MT-12 Rapier. Thus, only a dozen anti-tank systems on a wheeled chassis are enough to ensure the defense of an entire motorized rifle brigade.



Rogozin commented on the capabilities of the "Tiger" with rockets a little differently: according to the vice-premier, one machine can fight "immediately with a tank company." In addition, he noted the high export potential of the proposed modification of the armored car. As for the specific running characteristics of the wheeled armored vehicle, V. Chirkin is inclined to evaluate them as an advantage. As an example, he cited the famous march in Kosovo. In his opinion, this march on the new armored cars would take three times less time than on armored personnel carriers, as it was in the late nineties.

Data

The existence of an anti-tank complex of the Cornet family based on the Tigr armored car became known several years ago. It was first demonstrated at the international exhibition MAKS-2011. At the same time, the characteristics of the system were announced. Thus, the Kornet-EM missiles are capable of hitting targets at ranges from 150 meters to 10 kilometers. A missile is aimed at a target automatically, by a laser beam. The presence of two launchers with their own sights and a laser guidance system allows the combat vehicle to simultaneously launch and direct two missiles, which can be sent both to the same target and to different ones.

The sighting equipment of the Kornet-EM missile system allows finding and firing targets not only during the day, but also at night. The sight has two channels: television daytime and thermal night. In addition, each channel can operate in two modes: wide-field and narrow-field, which differ from each other in the size of the surveyed sector. After detecting the target, the operator of the anti-tank complex can measure the distance to it using a laser rangefinder. It is noteworthy that the range of measured distances significantly exceeds the range of the missiles: it allows you to measure the distance to 15 kilometers. After detection, the target is followed automatically or manually.

According to data from 2011, the Cornet-EM complex could use two types of missiles, with tandem-shaped cumulative and space-detonating combat units. Rockets have a greater degree of unification, but differ in some characteristics. For example, a rocket with an armor-piercing warhead together with a transport and launch container weighs 31 a kilogram, i.e. two kilograms less than thermobaric ammunition. In addition, the anti-tank missile flies a little slower, at a speed of 300 m / s against 320 m / s. It is worth noting that the most important difference between rockets is the flight range. Anti-tank ammunition flies only eight kilometers, and a range of ten kilometers refers to a rocket with a thermobaric charge. According to official data, a rocket with a tandem cumulative warhead can penetrate up to 1100-1300 millimeters of homogeneous armor for dynamic protection. The thermobaric warhead of another Kornet-EM ammunition, in turn, is equivalent to an explosion of seven kilograms of TNT.

Opinions

Back in 2011, the Tigr with Cornet missiles became the subject of heated debate. The proposed combat vehicle had both supporters and opponents. In recent days, in view of the new appearance of the anti-tank complex on the wheelbase, discussions have flared up with a new force. Both sides of the disputants put forward their arguments and strongly defend their point of view.

The main plus of a self-propelled anti-tank complex is a large ammunition. Unlike infantrymen armed with similar missiles, the armored car is capable of carrying both 16 missiles of both types at once. Thus, as the commander-in-chief of the ground forces and the vice-premier noted, one combat vehicle in ideal conditions can destroy up to 16 enemy tanks at a distance far exceeding the capabilities of enemy tank weapons. The firing range of the most modern tank guns is several times smaller than the maximum range of the Kornet-EM, and far from all existing tanks can give a symmetrical response in the form of a guided missile launched from the gun barrel.

The second advantage of the Tiger with the Cornet-EM is its mobility. The wheeled undercarriage provides good road performance on the highway and is acceptable on the roads. Thanks to this, combat vehicles will be able to change their position before tanks, artillery or aviation the enemy. Of course, a wheeled undercarriage, by definition, cannot provide patency at the tank level, but a light base chassis significantly increases the chances of surviving on the battlefield. In addition, retractable launchers to some extent mask the combat vehicle, not allowing the enemy to accurately identify it among other equipment on the same base.

The nomenclature of weapons of the new self-propelled anti-tank complex includes two types of missiles. Thus, the “Tiger” with launchers is not “tied” to a specific type of target. If necessary, he can bombard infantry or enemy fortifications with rockets with a space-detonating warhead. In combination with a relatively large ammunition ammunition nomenclature will allow new combat vehicles to perform a wide range of tasks.

Finally, a set of characteristics makes the missile system based on a car a more promising weapon system than towed anti-tank artillery. In fact, “Cornet-EM” loses to “Rapier” only at the cost of ammunition. In terms of mobility, survivability and firing range, the missile complex is ahead of the cannon. Several decades ago, an attempt was made to increase the potential of the gun MT-12. In the course of these works, the Tula engineers from the Design Bureau of Mechanical Engineering created the 9K116 "Kastet" complex with the 9М117 guided missile launched through the cannon. For its time, it was a worthy model of weapons, but now he has a very serious competitor in the form of the Cornet-EM complex.

As the main problem of the "Tiger" with anti-tank missiles, the base machine’s defense is too weak. An unarmored or lightly armored car can be damaged or destroyed even by small arms. In addition, machines with anti-tank weapons, possessing great potential, will be the first target for hitting the enemy, which will only aggravate the situation with their survival on the battlefield. Finally, the patency of the wheeled chassis is much worse than that of tracked vehicles. Thus, an inadequately protected self-propelled anti-tank complex runs the risk of being stuck on the battlefield and becoming a convenient target for any suitable weapon.

The second problem of the anti-tank complex on the basis of the Tigr vehicle, as well as other similar systems, lies in the ratio of the characteristics and the actual situation. An armor-piercing missile "Kornet-EM" flies eight kilometers only in ideal conditions of the landfill. Far from every terrain where combat is possible with the participation of tanks and anti-tank complexes will allow missile launches at maximum range. Thus, the chances of the anti-tank complex to liquidate enemy tanks and / or helicopters are significantly reduced prior to striking, depending on the characteristics of the particular landscape. After reducing the maximum visibility range and, as a result, shooting, the chances of both sides can be equal. If necessary, in appropriate conditions, an armored car with missiles can be located on a natural elevation, which will increase its “horizon”. But in this case, the combat vehicle will attract the attention of the artillery and aviation of the enemy, which, combined with the low survivability, condemns it to death.

In the light of the relatively low survivability of the self-propelled complex and the specific conditions of combat use, the problem of cost comes to the fore. In some cases, the accuracy and mobility of the Tigers with missiles will be too expensive, especially in comparison with anti-tank artillery. In addition to cheap "blanks" in the ammunition of existing guns, there are also guided missiles, which under certain conditions can be a worthy substitute for the ammunition of the Cornet-EM complex.

Future

It is difficult to say what future awaits the Kornet-EM anti-tank missile system based on the Tiger wheel chassis. It has both pros and cons, which need additional analysis. Probably in the future, the Russian armed forces will begin to receive such systems en masse. The reason for such a development of events could be called D. Rogozin's famous love for new promising types of weapons and protection that was motivated by it. However, another assumption seems more plausible and practical. According to the Instrument Design Bureau, the Kornet-EM missile systems can be mounted on any suitable chassis, regardless of the type of running gear. Therefore, in the very near future, new variants of the anti-tank complex, made on the basis of armored tracked vehicles, may appear. Such equipment already exists and is in service: it is the combat vehicle of the Sturm-S complex based on the MT-LB tractor and the Chrysanthemum complex mounted on the BMP-3 chassis.

The need for a full-fledged mass outfitting of ground forces with self-propelled anti-tank missile systems was long overdue. However, the state of the existing fleet of such systems and the pace of its updating leave much to be desired. It is quite possible that the next modification of the honored complex “Kornet” will become the very system that will significantly improve the situation in the army and give them a worthy argument in a possible fight against enemy tank units.


On the materials of the sites:
http://rg.ru/
http://itar-tass.com/
http://kbptula.ru/
http://vpk.name/
http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/
http://twower.livejournal.com/
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  1. smart ass
    smart ass April 30 2013 07: 45
    0
    http://oppozit.ru/article57.html вот техника на грани фантастики
    1. Rustam
      Rustam April 30 2013 13: 34
      +5
      Regarding the Kornet-EM complex on the TIGER SM-2 chassis
      This modification has not yet passed military trials (these are all Wishlist of someone)
      if at all, then it will be possible to talk about something
      1. agent
        agent April 30 2013 13: 49
        -3
        And you are aware that this Cornet, in principle, should fight with promising tanks of a potential enemy, be created ahead of schedule. And he can’t fight with the acting! Not active defense, not tandem dynamic defense, he can’t break through, and many NATO tanks are already equipped with it
        1. agent
          agent April 30 2013 14: 10
          +3
          The Cornet was developed on the basis of the Reflex tank guided armament complex - this is the last century! It is guided by the laser beam that the modern means of protecting the tanks can easily interfere with the laser beam. + He is not able to overcome the active protection of tanks that destroy the charge on approach. + if by some miracle it doesn’t fail to break through the tandem dynamic defense and the armor behind it, it is only designed to break through the usual DZ and armor behind it. So that money is on the wind of comrades.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov April 30 2013 14: 17
            +3
            It is difficult to create interference, he has a laser receiver in the stern. So they will be created only from the battle formations of the enemy.
          2. skeptic-
            skeptic- April 30 2013 14: 31
            +4
            Quote: agent
            The Cornet was developed on the basis of the Reflex tank guided armament complex - this is the last century! It is guided by the laser beam that the modern means of protecting the tanks can easily interfere with the laser beam. + He is not able to overcome the active protection of tanks that destroy the charge on approach. + if by some miracle it doesn’t fail to break through the tandem dynamic defense and the armor behind it, it is only designed to break through the usual DZ and armor behind it. So that money is on the wind of comrades.


            Well, what are you, my friend, just so immediately: "The lion is not given meat." The carrier, like the combat installation, has the ability to upgrade. In addition, the troops of potential adversaries have enough equipment with less armor protection. The tactics of using this type of weapon will also develop and its accuracy and armor penetration will improve, as it prepares for the state order for the Russian Armed Forces.
          3. Denis
            Denis April 30 2013 14: 35
            +6
            Quote: agent
            COMRADE
            Yours are not here!
            In the State Department, in the State Department!
            1. agent
              agent April 30 2013 14: 53
              -1
              you have brains ...
              1. Denis
                Denis April 30 2013 15: 58
                +4
                But the concept of honor that is alien to you is available
                A seat in nature, not in a geyropeisky use, is it also alien?
                1. agent
                  agent April 30 2013 16: 13
                  -1
                  Well, yes)) Honor your army to stuff it with inefficient weapons? Luchsheb used his head, not his seat, not gay
                  1. Denis
                    Denis April 30 2013 17: 07
                    0
                    Quote: agent
                    Luchsheb used his head
                    Used
                    About DZ it was said, but ...
            2. Sleptsoff
              Sleptsoff April 30 2013 15: 50
              +5
              So, a critically thinking person is immediately sent to the State Department instead of giving his arguments. Once again I am convinced that on this site they love only bravado and bragging.
              1. Denis
                Denis April 30 2013 16: 01
                0
                Quote: Sleptsoff
                on this site love only bravado and bragging
                And then what are we doing here?
                Small and foul-smelling dirty guys are definitely not here
                I advise you to look for where you love
              2. ABV
                ABV 1 May 2013 00: 03
                +8
                Quote: Sleptsoff
                So, a critically thinking person is immediately sent to the State Department instead of giving his arguments. Once again I am convinced that on this site they love only bravado and bragging.

                I support! as soon as a person appears and asks a question or leaves a comment not in the "mainstream", they immediately minus and peck ... a normal discussion is often zero. There is some kind of herd-type discrimination on the campaign. I noticed for a long time: the first few comments set the tone for the discussion of the article, and it doesn't matter what the line of comments went - adequate or so ... it is important to adhere to it and you are in trend! a word against or the slightest doubt about the correctness of the initial comments that set the tone --- and you are an enemy of the country, an agent of the State Department. urrra, comrades!
                1. studentmati
                  studentmati 1 May 2013 00: 09
                  +1
                  In your words a very large share of truth is present.
                2. bazilio
                  bazilio 2 May 2013 13: 14
                  0
                  Quote: ABV
                  I support! as soon as a person appears and asks a question or leaves a comment not in the "mainstream", they immediately minus and peck ... a normal discussion is often zero. There is some kind of herd-type discrimination in the campaign.

                  Yes, they often forget about a reasoned argument. And of course, we’re not forgetting about the offtopic article about a tank, a machine gun or an assault rifle, it doesn’t matter, you definitely need to mention the Americans, the Jewish Jews, the geyropa, what are all of them, all of our ideas (from the USSR / Russia) were stolen, etc. etc
                  1. Denis
                    Denis 2 May 2013 17: 16
                    -1
                    Quote: bazilio
                    kazly, all the ideas we (the USSR / Russia) stole
                    There is ...
                    But is it really in vain that you can be proud of many of your ideas and factories (deu-trough)?
                    1. bazilio
                      bazilio 3 May 2013 09: 13
                      0
                      Quote: Denis
                      There is ...

                      And there is not that. The Union at one time also "borrowed" a lot of things from others (http://topwar.ru/2464-istorii-kradennogo-oruzhiya.html#) God bless him, we are talking about an ATGM based on the Tiger, borrowing is not here goes

                      Quote: Denis
                      But is it really in vain that you can be proud of many of your ideas and factories (deu-trough)?


                      That's what I'm talking about. Read the title of the article in the title, it says "Insufficient Uzbek car industry, collecting da-trough", eh? If so, your comment is appropriate. If not, then it is unnecessary to breed offtopic. You need to comment on the topic.
              3. crambol
                crambol 1 May 2013 07: 59
                +2
                This is especially manifested in the presence of very large stars, which do not always accompany intelligence. Shouting about any cheers is easier than speaking on the substance of the matter.
          4. Rebus
            Rebus April 30 2013 16: 35
            0
            Quote: agent
            tandem dynamic protection

            You are a tandem, dynamic balabol ...
          5. Rustam
            Rustam 1 May 2013 01: 27
            0
            The Cornet was developed on the basis of the Reflex tank guided armament complex - this is the last century! It is guided by the laser beam that the modern tank protection means easily interfere with the laser beam. + He is not able to overcome the active protection of tanks that destroy the charge on approach.

            You are deeply mistaken! I explain once

            Today it is the most noise-protected complex! It’s simply not realistic to interfere with it — it must be placed between the missile and its guiding sight. It is not realistic to detect laser radiation at the time of start-up. it is scattered. Laser radiation sensors will be able to detect a signal just to raise the rocket to the target by 100 m, during which time even when setting up protection by some miracle, the rocket will stupidly fly into the target.
            Active defense does not roll along with DZ of any generation, if the launch is done in tandem (and Kornet-EM foresees it), even if one (first) missile is intercepted by some miracle, the second will hit with a probability of 99,99% (1,5 m homogen - this will not help any DZ). The developers deliberately abandoned missile control systems with GOS and other bells and whistles, because they are very susceptible to interference. All these Javelins, Hellfires, etc. easily go to interference or fly to their cars. And who said that Cornet was developed on the basis of Reflex?
      2. bask
        bask April 30 2013 17: 11
        +4
        Quote: Rustam
        the gadget of the Kornet-EM complex on the chassis of the TIGER SM-2
        This modification has not yet passed military trials (these are all Wishlist of someone)

        SMP-2,, tiger ,, armored car, not having sufficient cross-country ability, ((not tested)).
        As a wheeled chassis for ATGM does not fit.
        For anti-tank systems it is more suitable GSh BMP-3, 9P157-2, Chrysanthemum,
        Or as decided on the Belarusian BRMP T2 ,,, Stalker ,,
  2. Denis
    Denis April 30 2013 08: 21
    +2
    Rogozin commented on the capabilities of the “Tiger” with missiles in a slightly different way: according to the deputy prime minister, one machine is capable of fighting “immediately with a tank company”
    It can not but rejoice
    Only the last word should be for specialists, and not for effective managers. Enough stools
    1. dmitry46
      dmitry46 April 30 2013 09: 52
      +7
      Rogozin commented on the capabilities of the “Tiger” with missiles in a slightly different way: according to the deputy prime minister, one machine is capable of fighting “immediately with a tank company”

      This is from the realm of fiction! Even if we assume that he will quietly approach the distance of the shot, as soon as he releases 1 ATGM and he is spotted immediately. And it’s not a fact that the ATGM bulging in the tank will amaze him.
      1. smprofi
        smprofi April 30 2013 11: 40
        0
        Quote: dmitry46
        Rogozin commented

        found someone to believe ...
        and the photo is not all

      2. Atrix
        Atrix April 30 2013 13: 00
        -2
        Rogozin commented on the capabilities of the “Tiger” with missiles in a slightly different way: according to the deputy prime minister, one machine is capable of fighting “immediately with a tank company”

        Why would Russia need tanks then?)) Buy a better "Tiger", I thought earlier that he was a smart man, but he turned out to be like everyone else "unparalleled in the world"
        1. skeptic-
          skeptic- April 30 2013 14: 11
          +7
          Quote: Atrix
          Rogozin commented on the capabilities of the “Tiger” with missiles in a slightly different way: according to the deputy prime minister, one machine is capable of fighting “immediately with a tank company”
          Why would Russia need tanks then?)) Buy a better "Tiger", I thought earlier that he was a smart man, but he turned out to be like everyone else "having no analogues in the world"


          The whole reason is in the peculiarities of the presentation of the material. It is proposed to display the "Tiger", head-on against tanks, then at high-rise buildings. You might think that for a modern, high-precision, high-power weapon it will make a big difference who is in sight - a tank or a "Tiger".

          The purpose of machines like these "Tigers" is slightly different. Sudden attack on the enemy (preferably from ambush), simultaneously from different directions, shelling, rapid change of positions.
          Rapid transfer of fire weapons to the enemy’s breakthrough places. The main advantage of this technique is the massive use of small-sized, highly mobile (for the enemy) targets, with high combat potential.

          The whole military world understood the advantages of such vehicles and the tactical advantages that do not replace, but complement the capabilities of tracked armored vehicles, in highly specialized operations.

          Remember the proverb: "From a cannon to sparrows" - about them, only these "sparrows" are biting.
      3. Aries77
        Aries77 1 May 2013 23: 43
        -1
        1. In which tank are you PERSONALLY ready to sit in order to go against the "Cornet-EM" at a distance of 8 km?
        2. Well, a tiger tank with cornets will detect after the first shot and what will it do? other than turning on reverse gear?
    2. Tolik. 975
      Tolik. 975 April 30 2013 11: 13
      +4
      I can't even simulate this epic battle ... One "Tiger" against ten tanks wink well ... if only at the training ground for standing targets. Interesting, but enough for 10 tanks? and how long does it take to recharge? and yet - the problem with the night TV channel is solved? ..... the trough against the tanks is ridiculous!
      1. dmitry46
        dmitry46 April 30 2013 12: 33
        -1
        I would add - on standing tanks without a crew!
      2. Aries77
        Aries77 1 May 2013 23: 52
        0
        1. Kornet-EM has only 8 missiles on the guides, ready for launch and also inside the BK vehicle, so there will be enough for 10 or more tanks ... besides, attacking units with a loss of 40% - retreat ... kamikaze are not provided for by the charter ...
        2. What is the problem with the night channel? there are no problems - there is a thermal imager and at night you see everything no worse than during the day ...
    3. agent
      agent April 30 2013 13: 26
      -3
      Rogozin deceived you comrades! On many of these NATO stands a TANDEMIC dynamic defense - which not one of our RPGs takes! + there is active defense protection on many tanks, a grenade launcher was created against it with two launch tubes, one above the other, in theory they bypass the active defense, but they do not take the tandem DZ either. So all anti-tank missiles, including helicopter missiles - EMPTY MONEY FOR MONEY FOR DISABLED WEAPONS. For such a trial must be given!
      1. Denis
        Denis April 30 2013 13: 50
        +4
        Quote: agent
        Many of these NATO have a TANDEMIC dynamic defense - which not one of our RPGs takes
        But what then are they doing from the good old RPG-7?
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov April 30 2013 14: 01
          +3
          Probably because the shot to him PG-7VR breaks through such protection
          1. agent
            agent April 30 2013 14: 39
            -3
            PG-7VR)) if you get to the same point twice? he only breaks through conventional DZ and armor behind it
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov April 30 2013 14: 42
              +1
              And on which tanks is the "unusual" DZ?
              1. agent
                agent April 30 2013 15: 10
                -2
                NATO has such a defense called Tamdemic DZ, specially invented so as not to try PG-7VR, etc. Obviously, new tanks will be produced with it, and if you need to quickly quickly re-equip the old ones ...
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov April 30 2013 15: 21
                  +4
                  Where is it, do not tell? Which tank?
                  1. agent
                    agent April 30 2013 15: 51
                    -5
                    But what's the difference though? At least on one thing, but soon there will be a fact, and in conjunction with an active wired, and information on-board system like the Jews and much more than others. The Ministry of Defense, apparently using hoaxes, included the Mi-2020N, Ka-2020 helicopters with outdated second-generation anti-tank missile systems (ATGMs) into the State Armaments Program until 28 (GPV-52), unsuitable for use in contactless wars in which crews these carriers are destined for kamikaze. By the time the GPV-2020 is completed, the Ataka and Vikhr-M ATGM helicopters, which were put into service in the mid-90s, will be about 25 years behind in perfection from third-generation foreign models.
                  2. aksakal
                    aksakal 2 May 2013 01: 11
                    +2
                    Quote: Spade
                    And on which tanks is the "unusual" DZ?
                    - the agent was referring to the Merkava-4 with a KAZ trophy of a powerful DZ. It is really difficult to knock out such a one, but the agent does not know how to read carefully - especially for him, I focus on the fact that the hero of the SABZh - "Tiger" - has the opportunity to make a volley with two missiles at such a Merkava - and no KAZ and no DZ will save the chariot ... However, as shown by real military operations in the recent past, the Merkava-4 is amazed even by single "cornet", this has already been proven. So the one who stands up for the agent there is also past. The agent was pecked for the case, there is no need to print the dilettante's garbage, let him teach the materiel and then post.
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 2 May 2013 01: 47
                      +2
                      He retold from other people's words. There is such a scarecrow-tandem dynamic defense, theoretically insurmountable for tandem ammunition. Only it is not on any tank at this time.
                      1. aksakal
                        aksakal 2 May 2013 09: 17
                        0
                        Quote: Spade
                        He retold from other people's words

                        - understandably -))))
      2. Lopatov
        Lopatov April 30 2013 13: 50
        +2
        Who misled you so powerfully ??? So many game in one post I have not yet met. Troll?
      3. skeptic-
        skeptic- April 30 2013 14: 32
        +3
        Quote: agent
        Rogozin deceived you comrades! On many of these NATO stands a TANDEMIC dynamic defense - which not one of our RPGs takes! + there is active defense protection on many tanks, a grenade launcher was created against it with two launch tubes, one above the other, in theory they bypass the active defense, but they do not take the tandem DZ either. So all anti-tank missiles, including helicopter missiles - EMPTY MONEY FOR MONEY FOR DISABLED WEAPONS. For such a trial must be given!


        Well, what are you, my friend, just so immediately: "The lion is not given meat." The carrier, like the combat installation, has the ability to upgrade. In addition, the troops of potential adversaries have enough equipment with less armor protection. The tactics of using this type of weapon will also develop and its accuracy and armor penetration will improve, as it prepares for the state order for the Russian Armed Forces.
        1. agent
          agent April 30 2013 14: 41
          -3
          in my opinion, it’s time to modernize and already supply the modernized to the troops so that it breaks through everything that exists today at least
      4. Skiff-2
        Skiff-2 April 30 2013 14: 46
        +5
        Eco Agent was raging! That’s what the mobile anti-tank missile system is for in order to quickly resolve issues of protecting tank-dangerous directions, protect convoys on the march, cover civilian objects during the threatened period, I'm not talking about the airborne forces and the marine corps, as well as peacekeepers, where it’s simply irreplaceable - speed, maneuver, transportability. This is a TOOL, and the tool should be different and just in case your own.
      5. Patton5
        Patton5 April 30 2013 16: 30
        +2
        Rogozin deceived you comrades! On many of these NATO stands a TANDEMIC dynamic defense - which not one of our RPGs takes! + there is active defense protection on many tanks, a grenade launcher was created against it with two launch tubes, one above the other, in theory they bypass the active defense, but they do not take the tandem DZ either. So all anti-tank missiles, including helicopter missiles - EMPTY MONEY FOR MONEY FOR DISABLED WEAPONS. For such a trial must be given!
        Thanks for the truth soldier only it can be a little more detailed, what kind of tandem protection stands on many NATO tanks?
      6. olegff68
        olegff68 April 30 2013 16: 41
        +4
        Quote: agent
        Rogozin deceived you comrades! On many of these NATO stands a TANDEMIC dynamic defense - which not one of our RPGs takes! + there is active defense protection on many tanks, a grenade launcher was created against it with two launch tubes, one above the other, in theory they bypass the active defense, but they do not take the tandem DZ either. So all anti-tank missiles, including helicopter missiles - EMPTY MONEY FOR MONEY FOR DISABLED WEAPONS. For such a trial must be given!

        CHEF - EVERYTHING IS LOST, WHAT TO DO, WHAT TO DO !!!
        1) Examples of mass application of tandem DZ in the studio pliz!
        2) A lot of people recently wanting to shout that their tanks are not taking RPGs, the result is beautiful photos with holes in the board.
        3) It is possible to modify ANY domestic complex (both a sight and a missile) repeatedly and it will cost several times cheaper than a modification of a tank.
      7. Andrey57
        Andrey57 April 30 2013 21: 44
        +2
        Well, yes - well, yes, and mattress Abrams fired in Iraq exclusively with hoes and bottles of gasoline, especially if you consider that their roof and bottom are "super thick booking", as much as 20 to 40 mm, and it worked out well into the gap under the tower. bully
  3. erased
    erased April 30 2013 08: 34
    13
    In the anti-tank complex, the main thing is the combat module. Although no one belittles the role of the chassis. So Cornet can bet on anything. And as an option - a remotely controlled tracked robot with 4-6 missiles. Subtle, low noise, maneuverable. Such robots already exist, it remains only to develop an option in missiles.
    And that update is required - for sure. Like most military equipment in the army.
    1. PROXOR
      PROXOR April 30 2013 09: 17
      0
      Quote: erased
      In the anti-tank complex, the main thing is the combat module. Although no one belittles the role of the chassis. So Cornet can bet on anything. And as an option - a remotely controlled tracked robot with 4-6 missiles. Subtle, low noise, maneuverable. Such robots already exist, it remains only to develop an option in rockets. And that update is required - for sure. Like most military equipment in the army.

      There is one small caveat. Russia does not have a powerful satellite control constellation like stripes. And yes, two dozen of these rollerbots will kill an armored company as a nefig.
    2. Lopatov
      Lopatov April 30 2013 09: 36
      +5
      Then it’s better to create a complex based on BMO-T. Cheap and cheerful, the T-72 is better to put into action than to cut into needles
      The robot is somewhat redundant, enough remotely controlled removal.
      Well, according to the "Tiger" with the installation of ATGM, this option is also possible. Only an arrow is needed
      1. Patton5
        Patton5 April 30 2013 16: 53
        +2
        This is nonsense ....... how much time does he need to deploy? and then to leave the position? mobile anti-tank systems should be ready for battle without any special preparations, and even better with a missile fired, forgot!
      2. bask
        bask April 30 2013 18: 02
        +4
        Quote: Spade
        Well, according to the "Tiger" with the installation of ATGM, this option is also possible. Only an arrow is needed

        In SMP2 ,, Tiger ,, there is no mine protection .. ,, Tiger ,, police armored car. But not military. An attempt to create in version 6A, for, with enhanced mine and ballistic protection, for the RS, the Russian Federation, remained in a single copy.
        If you install only on the SMP-3,, Bear ,, More like ((although it was created by order of the Ministry of Internal Affairs)))

    3. agent
      agent April 30 2013 13: 32
      -8
      And you are aware that this Cornet, in principle, should fight with promising tanks of a potential enemy, be created ahead of schedule. And he can’t fight with the acting! Not active defense, not tandem dynamic defense, he can’t break through, and many NATO tanks are already equipped with it
      1. krokodil25
        krokodil25 April 30 2013 14: 14
        10
        That's all I can answer you. laughing
        1. PROXOR
          PROXOR April 30 2013 14: 18
          0
          Quote: krokodil25
          That's all I can answer you.

          EEEEE I was the first drinks
        2. erased
          erased April 30 2013 14: 26
          +1
          What's the beautiful! Where is it?
        3. IGOREK
          IGOREK 1 May 2013 10: 41
          0
          unfortunately these pictures with Soviet (Russian) tanks are also missing
  4. Roll
    Roll April 30 2013 09: 54
    -2
    laughing As for infantry fighting vehicles and armored vehicles, they certainly need to be replaced faster with armored cars, it doesn’t matter when the infantry rides on armor, although of course for specific operations the infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers must be left. So what does the tiger cope with the tank company? if the tanks stand as targets in the shooting range, then yes. But in general, we are going in the right direction and it’s good that Rogozin himself studies and tests models of equipment.
    1. Astartes
      Astartes April 30 2013 13: 01
      +1
      An armored car from a rocket to the side will burn no worse than a BMP, and the fact that vehicles designed to support tanks and deliver infantry to the contact line are used to transport personnel, so these are definitely not design flaws
    2. Patton5
      Patton5 April 30 2013 17: 27
      +2
      you are probably making the assumption that armored cars are not comfortable to ride on "armor" because, in principle, it is not foreseen, probably so it is. And if seriously, how does the "tiger" surpass the BTR-82?
  5. Volkhov
    Volkhov April 30 2013 10: 38
    -3
    Rogozin at the firing range, where they started shooting every day - not a reason for great joy.
    Shooters with French and Italian next-generation pturs were shot by the Syrians, whose tank companies have not yet ended. To help the rebels, they began to prepare an airborne assault, which is obviously inferior to the Chechen forces in general training, having an advantage only in the rear and administrative structures ... but realizing the strength of the army organization, Iran launched an uprising in Iraq to provide a corridor for the passage of its army under the joint defense pact with Syria. On the other hand, the DPRK mobilized - there are about 350 tank companies and many others, and this is an ally of Iran.
    If Rogozin has already learned, let him take the Tiger and his son with a T-5000 rifle, which he releases and go on their own a safari, but does not drag Russia in - Russian conscripts should not replace mercenaries from all over the world.
    1. skeptic-
      skeptic- April 30 2013 14: 42
      +1
      Quote: Volkhov
      Rogozin at the firing range, where they started shooting every day - not a reason for great joy.
      Shooters with French and Italian next-generation pturs were shot by the Syrians, whose tank companies have not yet ended. To help the rebels, they began to prepare an airborne assault, which is obviously inferior to the Chechen forces in general training, having an advantage only in the rear and administrative structures ... but realizing the strength of the army organization, Iran launched an uprising in Iraq to provide a corridor for the passage of its army under the joint defense pact with Syria. On the other hand, the DPRK mobilized - there are about 350 tank companies and many others, and this is an ally of Iran.
      If Rogozin has already learned, let him take the Tiger and his son with a T-5000 rifle, which he releases and go on their own a safari, but does not drag Russia in - Russian conscripts should not replace mercenaries from all over the world.


      An article, actually about Thomas, why are you talking about Yerema?

      Well, I don’t like Rogozin, so generally speaking about "Tiger" with "Cornet".
      1. Volkhov
        Volkhov April 30 2013 16: 33
        +3
        In the headline Rogozin was in front of the Tiger and Kornet and his bold statements were cited ... like "pull the string, the door will open," so I shared my opinion of what was behind the door.
        And the ATGM is quite working, only the training ground is far from Rublevka.
  6. Heccrbq
    Heccrbq April 30 2013 10: 42
    -1
    This one has not yet hit, but the w-lizs have already slammed)))))
    1. Aries77
      Aries77 1 May 2013 23: 59
      0
      Quote: Heccrbq
      This one has not yet hit, but the w-lizs have already slammed)))))


      You ought to teach physics, my friend ... it was not the "zh-liz" who clapped, but those who saw the hit and the explosion ... and the sound from 2 km arrives in 6-7 s (the speed of sound is 330 m / s) ...
  7. fzr1000
    fzr1000 April 30 2013 11: 12
    0
    It was right there on the site that even with a tandem warhead, Cornet was unable to penetrate armor equipped with some kind of active defense of the latest generation (not special). So what do we have in the end?
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov April 30 2013 13: 55
      0
      Not able to. But we are not going to fight with Israel.
      1. fzr1000
        fzr1000 April 30 2013 14: 08
        0
        Thank you comforted No.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov April 30 2013 14: 11
          +1
          "Merkava" of the last series is the only serial tank on which KAZ is installed.
          And indeed, its possibilities are by no means unlimited.
          1. Black Colonel
            Black Colonel 28 May 2013 14: 55
            0
            Oh well. Recently, the article was about RPG-30. KAZ is resting (for now)
      2. beard999
        beard999 April 30 2013 16: 16
        +3
        Quote: Spade
        Not able to.

        Well, KBP, as it were, claims to be just “capable.” In conjunction with the APU, it is possible: “Shooting with two missiles in one beam to destroy especially dangerous targets, including those equipped with active defense systems.” http://www.kbptula.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=114&Itemid=50
        0 & lang = ru. On Wi-Fi, they assured that the Russian version of APU will have, in addition to the two-channel OES presented at the Kornet-EM export modification, also a radar: either 1L111M Fara-PV http://www.npostrela.com/en/products/ new-dev / 100/258 /? print = Y, or 1L277 http://www.npostrela.com/en/products/new-dev/100/260/?print=Y (though there would be argued there would be a radar on each machine or only on the machine of the battery commander, similar to 9P157-4). They will allow SPTRK, as in the wearable Commander, to automatically orientate anti-tank missile launchers around the clock, in any weather conditions, as well as make effective target allocation and target designation for calculations in the process of firing an anti-tank unit with pointing each anti-tank missile launcher to its target.
      3. aksakal
        aksakal 2 May 2013 08: 58
        -1
        Quote: Spade
        Not able to. But we’re not going to fight with Israel

        - so categorically, Mr. "ultimate truth". Are you so sure? In the course of the last conflict, all Merkavas, including the "fourth versions", were perfectly amazed by the Cornets. Moreover, with single launches of Cornets. "The most recent KAZKAZ do not have a 0,7% coefficient at all, they do not even have XNUMX, but you already:
        Quote: Spade
        Not able to.

        Cornet is capable, and many are unable to move away from blind faith in the power of Israeli weapons laughing
        So scare us with these chariots is not really necessary - the same sucks, half a point better, that's all.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 2 May 2013 09: 57
          +1
          Quote: aksakal
          so peremptory, mister "ultimate truth." Are you so sure?

          I am sure. Israel is far from our borders. And we have nothing to do there


          Quote: aksakal
          Cornet is capable, and many are unable to move away from blind faith in the power of Israeli weapons

          And many suffer from hats. And they confuse "blind faith" with a real assessment of the capabilities of the active defense complex. For a modern ATGM, high armor penetration is not everything.
          1. aksakal
            aksakal 2 May 2013 10: 34
            +1
            Quote: Spade
            I am sure. Israel is far from our borders. And we have nothing to do there

            - I'm not talking about the stink with Israel - thank God, he is not needed. I'm talking about the fact that Cornet is not able to take Merkava - he takes it and how. Verified directly by combat experience. Once I requested evidence from a well-known professor that it was Cornet who was used against the burned Merkav - he published a convincing photo.
            For those Merkavs who will have improved versions of the KAZ in the future (and only in the future), the probability of which will be approaching missiles approaching 0,9, finalizing the Cornet will not be difficult. To make a version with a false head warhead, or a complex that shoots at once in one gulp and doesn’t have any other way, improve the seeker and add maneuvering - for the Tula people it’s quite a solvable task. Now there is no such need yet - and so takes all the tanks of the world.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 2 May 2013 10: 44
              0
              Quote: aksakal
              Verified directly by combat experience.

              Lebanese War. That is, this happened before the installation of KAZ systems on combat vehicles. "Trophy" was put on stream only in 2007
              1. Aries77
                Aries77 2 May 2013 22: 39
                0
                Somehow, it doesn’t work out logically ... in 2006, the Israelis knew about the cornets in Lebanon and climbed on unfinished tanks, then rolled away, upgraded the tanks — they put them in all KAZs and sit for 6 years, they think ... to attack or not to attack .. some kind of female logic ... don’t refuse the logic and expediency of the Israelis - to modernize all tanks for crazy money in a year and then keep them in warehouses ...
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 2 May 2013 22: 52
                  -1
                  They already have cases of successful use of the active protection complex against ATGMs. Including "Cornets"
                  1. Aries77
                    Aries77 2 May 2013 22: 57
                    0
                    can you link to official information? but you know somehow it turns out like in a joke:
                    - doctor! a neighbor says that everything is fine with women,
                    - so what?
                    - like that he is 70 and I am 70, but I have nothing with women ...
                    - well, so you say ...
                    And as the Israelis do their commercials - I think everyone knows ...
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 2 May 2013 23: 23
                      -1
                      And you ask the Professor. Or use the site search.
      4. Denis
        Denis 2 May 2013 12: 34
        0
        Quote: Spade
        we are not going to fight with Israel
        So then it is, but not a fact
        As if they didn’t fight with him and mattresses, but where did drones and other rubbish come from in an extreme war?
        Ready to be
  8. abc_alex
    abc_alex April 30 2013 11: 39
    +2
    Some garbage in the article. Well, firstly, the launch range of ATGM 10 km - is this sorry? The horizon on the plain for humans is 5 km. Has anyone heard of third-party target designation for Cornet?
    Secondly, what does it mean "In terms of mobility, survivability and firing range, the missile system is ahead of the gun." Well, I agree with mobility, but in terms of range, which side? The author has not forgotten that the Rapier has a HE shell, which it throws at the same 8+ km?
    Controversial and survivability. Towed guns are usually fired from equipped positions.
    And again, the towed guns are more versatile due to the range of ammunition.

    In addition, the Tiger car for the army does not exist. Those samples that are in the troops now do not satisfy the principles of localization of production.
    1. Explore
      Explore April 30 2013 11: 49
      +1
      A tiger car for the army exists. It is called the STS (Special Vehicle). I won’t say about the total number, but I know for sure that the 10th Brigade of the Special Operations Directorate of the GRU (the village of Molkino, Krasnodar Territory) completely moved to these machines, as it communicated with the guys from there.
      And about the lacolization of production - look at Iveco-Lynx and Mistral ....
  9. datur
    datur April 30 2013 12: 36
    10
    for me it’s better Rogozin than Chubais !!!! wink
  10. krez-74
    krez-74 April 30 2013 12: 44
    +3
    Whoever says anything, it is clear that work is ongoing. Russia is no longer the incomprehensible amorphous state that was in the 90's!
  11. agent
    agent April 30 2013 13: 24
    -7
    Rogozin deceived you comrades! On many of these NATO stands a TANDEMIC dynamic defense - which not one of our RPGs takes! + there is active defense protection on many tanks, a grenade launcher was created against it with two launch tubes, one above the other, in theory they bypass the active defense, but they do not take the tandem DZ either. So all anti-tank missiles, including helicopter missiles - EMPTY MONEY FOR MONEY FOR DISABLED WEAPONS. For such a trial must be given!
    1. Kars
      Kars April 30 2013 13: 27
      +4
      Quote: agent
      On many of these NATO stands a TANDEMIC dynamic defense -


      And you can take a photo in the studio with a tandem dynamic protection purely for the collection.
      1. agent
        agent April 30 2013 13: 43
        -3
        search the Internet for example "tandem explosive reactive armor" "active defense of tanks" Already how many invented and used in the West to protect against anti-tank missiles! Study this question and understand what kind of metal these RPGs from Ragozin. In order for them to meet modern requirements, they must be modernized continuously. Our generals will continue to prepare for the past wars. And the kammenarii on this site, instead of a critical assessment, pros and cons, were hurray-patriotic sentiments like the Red Army in May 1941 ...
        1. Kars
          Kars April 30 2013 13: 57
          +4
          Quote: agent
          look on the internet for example

          Well this is not the answer. There is a function to insert a picture.
          I personally know one dynamic defense against tandem ammunition manufactured by Ukraine, but I haven’t seen it on NATO tanks. Active defense and dynamic are quite different things.

          and I have several thousand photos, here is the last version of Challenger 2, do not tell me where on it
          Quote: agent
          TANDEMIC dynamic protection
          1. PROXOR
            PROXOR April 30 2013 14: 05
            +3
            I also have a photo !!!! Found!!!!!
          2. PROXOR
            PROXOR April 30 2013 14: 06
            0
            And here's another !!!!!
          3. agent
            agent April 30 2013 14: 23
            -5
            The Cornet was developed on the basis of the Reflex tank guided armament complex - this is the last century! It is guided by the laser beam that modern tank protection means can easily interfere with the laser beam (even ordinary smoke) + it is not able to overcome the active protection of tanks that destroy the charge on approach. + if by some miracle it doesn’t fail to break through the tandem dynamic defense and the armor behind it, it is only designed to break through the usual DZ and the armor behind it
          4. Alex Nick
            Alex Nick April 30 2013 22: 00
            0
            It looks like they cheated us again, she’s inside him!
        2. PROXOR
          PROXOR April 30 2013 14: 07
          +2
          But the answer is even if the stripes will still have dynamic protection.
          1. Kars
            Kars April 30 2013 14: 10
            +1
            By the way, it’s amateurish. If it’s located on the armor, it’s not active but dynamic protection. And what is the armor penetration of a grenade .. openers ..? I didn’t see something in the article next.
            1. PROXOR
              PROXOR April 30 2013 14: 15
              +3
              Quote: Kars
              By the way, it’s amateurish. If it’s located on the armor, it’s not active but dynamic protection. And what is the armor penetration of a grenade .. openers ..? I didn’t see something in the article next.

              Well, there’s nothing to say. Who draws the diagrams with us is a separate song. I think the task of detonating the dynamic protection bin is laid out on the opener. In order to send a grenade with a tandem head into the exhaust tile.
              1. Kars
                Kars April 30 2013 14: 20
                +2
                Quote: PROXOR
                the task of detonation of the dynamic protection

                To do this, she must be able to penetrate at least 30 mm of armor, I'm not talking about simple lattices. From the picture of the hook, I still do not understand what it is .. a flap .. and there are slight doubts that the leading and basic grenade will smash the tank into one place, with a slight difference, that would get into the triggered block DZ.
            2. Volkhov
              Volkhov April 30 2013 23: 43
              +1
              The scheme is simply wrong - the first grenade is a false target for active protection, which works and does not have time to reboot in this sector (there you need a couple of seconds to re-locate it), and the main one - a powerful tandem grenade breaks through dynamics and armor. In the same tile with different grenades and were not going to fall, this is unrealistic.
        3. Vtel
          Vtel April 30 2013 14: 41
          0
          http://nvo.ng.ru/armament/2002-07-19/6_progress.html
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov April 30 2013 14: 45
            0
            The source of the screams "The truncated is gone" - HBO? I'm not even surprised.
        4. skeptic-
          skeptic- April 30 2013 14: 49
          0
          Quote: agent
          Already how much has been invented and used in the West to protect against anti-tank missiles! Examine this question and understand what metal these Ragozin RPGs are. So that they meet modern requirements, they must be modernized continuously. Our generals will continue to prepare for past wars. And instead of a critical assessment, the pros and cons of the kamenarians on this site were jingoistic as the Red Army in May 1941 ..


          Well, what are you, my friend, just so immediately: "The lion is not given meat." The carrier, like the combat installation, has the ability to upgrade. In addition, the troops of potential adversaries have enough equipment with less armor protection. The tactics of using this type of weapon will also develop and its accuracy and armor penetration will improve, as it prepares for the state order for the Russian Armed Forces.
        5. Patton5
          Patton5 April 30 2013 16: 59
          0
          Already how much has been invented
          By whom? You?
    2. Patton5
      Patton5 April 30 2013 17: 07
      +2
      Rogozin deceived you comrades! On many of these NATO stands a TANDEMIC dynamic defense - which not one of our RPGs takes! + there is active defense protection on many tanks, a grenade launcher was created against it with two launch tubes, one above the other, in theory they bypass the active defense, but they do not take the tandem DZ either. So all anti-tank missiles, including helicopter missiles - EMPTY MONEY FOR MONEY FOR DISABLED WEAPONS. For such a trial must be given!
      I will say more !!!!!! The governments of the earth are deceiving us all, somewhere in space I won’t specify where, but I know what there are, hostile aliens who are thousands of years ahead of us in development, this is only a convector of singularity (black holes) and not tomorrow but already yesterday ... and you are here with your tanks, helicopters !!!!
  12. PROXOR
    PROXOR April 30 2013 13: 44
    +3
    Quote: agent
    search the Internet for example "tandem explosive reactive armor" "active defense of tanks" Already how many invented and used in the West to protect against anti-tank missiles! Study this question and understand what kind of metal these RPGs from Ragozin. In order for them to meet modern requirements, they must be modernized continuously. Our generals will continue to prepare for the past wars. And the kammenarii on this site, instead of a critical assessment, pros and cons, were hurray-patriotic sentiments like the Red Army in May 1941 ...

    No, really. Photo to the judge of Abrams and Leo 2 with dynamic protection !!!!!
    1. agent
      agent April 30 2013 13: 53
      -5
      ))) What else do you want?)) Who needs it will figure it out. And who, for the sake of his own psychological comfort, is ready to close his eyes to the obvious is his business. With drafts on tanks, somewhere it was already
      1. PROXOR
        PROXOR April 30 2013 14: 09
        +1
        Quote: agent
        ))) What else do you want?)) Who needs it will figure it out. And who, for the sake of his own psychological comfort, is ready to close his eyes to the obvious is his business. With drafts on tanks, somewhere it was already

        Do not flood disabled !!!!! Everyone here already understood everything with you. Go ass to the stripes of the league.
      2. Denis
        Denis April 30 2013 14: 19
        +1
        Quote: agent
        With drafts on tanks
        Leave this nonsense to the Poles
      3. Patton5
        Patton5 April 30 2013 19: 35
        +1
        I'll tell you where ... in Poland, tobish in Europe (NATO)
  13. USNik
    USNik April 30 2013 13: 55
    0
    Photo to the judge of Abrams and Leo 2 with dynamic protection !!!!!

    +1 And photos of tanks from combat units, and not single copies. Jews with their chariot not to offer, we can’t fight with them. (PS agent, and you didn’t mistake the flag during registration? repeat )
    1. agent
      agent April 30 2013 14: 20
      -2
      ))) where on it))) Before climbing into Iraq, the United States did not even equip its tanks with additional protection because according to intelligence, the Iraqis do not have modern weapons, although they could equip them, they quickly, stupidly saved. It’s obvious that there are these types of protection, and in the event of increasing tension it will quickly equip everything that is possible, they will sell it to the Georgians somehow, and what then ???? That is, I am for the modernization of missiles and then equipping them with wax, and you equipping with old stuff ?? and I still confused the country ??!
      1. Volkhov
        Volkhov April 30 2013 15: 00
        +1
        agent

        You should have been sent across the North Pole on foot while you reach ... here you have already teamed up with NATO and repainted in their color - the DPRK and Iran tanks are now a potential enemy ... and something else, somewhere in the north.
  14. Aza
    Aza April 30 2013 16: 38
    0
    Good idea) For additional protection, it is necessary to put at least 5 mm protection with Russian Kevlar on the sides of ATGMs!
  15. Seraph
    Seraph April 30 2013 16: 56
    -1
    A tiger with an ATGM is, of course, great. But I don’t understand: why is it always counted the number of the adversary to which this or that system should oppose, only according to the parameters of this very system. "One ATGM against a tank company." Nonsense! And the tanks won't shoot? Aren't NATO tankers and motorized infantry cooperating? They do not have the means to deal with self-propelled ATGMs? Or are we making our calculations based on the confrontation with the Albanian army on the T-34?
    1. krokodil25
      krokodil25 April 30 2013 17: 36
      0
      They give specific characteristics no more than that, they don’t say that we will replace the tanks with such tigers, they will simply supplement the existing system, they will have specific goals.
    2. Patton5
      Patton5 April 30 2013 19: 40
      0
      the article says "in ideal conditions" ....
    3. BruderV
      BruderV April 30 2013 21: 34
      0
      Quote: Seraphim
      Or are we making our calculations based on the confrontation with the Albanian army on the T-34?

      Yes, apparently it is. Almost all western tanks have a laser warning system. If this happens, the tower automatically turns to the source of this radiation and the arrow can only measure the range and hit the target, and given the speed of the ATGM, a high-explosive fragmentation projectile will fly over the Tiger much faster. So these tales of the night about 18 tanks by one Tiger, even if they continue to tell effective managers. One effective manager Khrushchev nearly ditched the aviation and armored forces with an idea to solve all problems with missiles. There is apparently a double of two.
      1. aksakal
        aksakal 2 May 2013 12: 08
        +2
        Quote: BruderV
        Yes, apparently it is. Almost all western tanks have a laser warning system. If this happens, the tower automatically turns to the source of this radiation and the arrow can only measure the range and hit the target, and given the speed of the ATGM, a high-explosive fragmentation projectile will fly over the Tiger much faster.

        - only theoretically. Do not forget that the rate of fire of the tank is no more than 6 rounds per minute, and at the time of irradiation, the Cornet is almost ready to start. While the turret is unfolding (and it does not rotate instantly), while aiming is underway and even loading the right projectile of the desired type into the cannon is all the time, even seconds, but time. About 7-8 seconds for the fastest tank. And by the time of irradiation, the Cornet in a second captures the target and starts. Death can be mutual, then someone is lucky -)))).
        I don't know why multiply entities? For the protection of tanks from the air, the Armor is proposed, for the protection against infantry - the BMPT, the armament of which is very similar to the armament of the armor. To protect tanks from others - this is a product in the SABZH. Why are there so many specialized equipment? There is already a Kornet, which successfully hits both air and ground targets, and tanks. Why not modify the same BMPT - add a tracked trailer in the joint, where to place the radar and other detection equipment? So we get "three in one" - protection from "air", from tanks and from infantry. It will need to be finalized, but for me, this reduces the unnecessary assortment of accompanying vehicles, I could be wrong.
  16. pooop
    pooop April 30 2013 19: 04
    0
    Well, excuse me comrades, but I see no reason to steam like that ...
    Rogozin is already in the guts, I hope he won’t burn out ahead of time
    and about the cracker on the video, well, maybe it makes sense to shoot from it while sitting in a trench or dugout, but when it is put on the platform !!!

    Now, if I got in motion! (which is calculated)
    then yes, maybe that makes sense
  17. ed1968
    ed1968 April 30 2013 19: 14
    0
    maybe the cornet itself is not so bad, but there is still a lot of work to do on it as well as on the tiger
  18. Best novel
    Best novel April 30 2013 19: 16
    0
    Khrushchev at one time also focused on missiles, slowing down the development of artillery, tanks, aircraft carriers. Shouldn't one person, and far from being a professional, make some kind of global decisions, will the times ever change?
  19. krpmlws
    krpmlws April 30 2013 19: 32
    0
    The combat vehicle must be floating! What is attached to this Tiger? A good car for the generals and staff officers in the frontline and that's all.
  20. Aaron Zawi
    Aaron Zawi April 30 2013 21: 03
    -1
    In general, heavy ATGMs are conquering the market more and more actively.
    Industry sources confirm that Colombia is acquiring Spike-NLOS (Non Line of Sight) long-range anti-tank systems manufactured by the Israeli company Rafael Advanced Defense Systems, informs infodefensa.com. The new missiles are part of the upgrade program for Arpía III Colombian Air Force helicopters to Arpía IV. As part of this program, a total of 12 helicopters will be modernized, the update also includes the installation of new types of weapons and equipment, such as a data transmission system and Toplite (optoelectronic surveillance, control and navigation systems).
     Spike-NLOS is a modern export version of the Tamuz rocket with a range of up to 25 km and a weight of 70 kg. The missile can be equipped with all types of warheads of the Spike missile family, which is in service with the Israel Defense Forces.

    http://www.infodefensa.com/?noticia=colombia-adquiere-el-sistema-antitanque-spik
    e-nlos-de-rafael
    1. bask
      bask 1 May 2013 08: 20
      +1
      Quote: Aron Zaavi
      In general, heavy ATGMs are conquering the market more and more actively.

      Naturally, they can afford only very rich countries. Spike, costs $ 100 $$$. For a single shot, a little expensive.
      Quote: Aron Zaavi
      pike-NLOS is the modern export version of the Tamuz rocket with a range of up to 25 km and a weight of 70 kg

      And such a version for all $ 200,000, Israel, what is the Arab sheikhs going to supply.?
      Armored Car, RAM Mk III AT is equipped with a retractable four-shot launcher of the IAI Nimrod-SR anti-tank missile system with a semi-active laser guidance system. Delivered to Latin America and Africa.
      [Center][/ Center
      1. aksakal
        aksakal 2 May 2013 09: 09
        0
        Quote: bask
        costs 100 thousand $$$. For a single shot, a little expensive

        - I'll correct it - 250 thousand. For such a price, the Peruvians were vparized when one "spike" glitched there and almost killed the officials hanging out in the comparative test. The cornet went for a price of about 70 thousand killed. Three and a half times cheaper - noticeably. And the effect was almost the same - the "Cornet" was a little less accurate - it hit a circle with a basketball, "Spike" - in a smaller circle. And on aiming the difference - like, "Spike" completely fired and forgot, tracking to the target is not needed. A few seconds while the projectile flies to the tank is won due to this. In my amateur opinion, such options do not greatly justify the increase in the cost of a shot as much as three and a half times. The price-quality ratio of "Spike" is not so hot, although yes, in terms of absolute indicators in terms of accuracy and GOS, "Spike" is slightly superior to "Cornet"
  21. BruderV
    BruderV April 30 2013 21: 19
    +3
    Kamentatars kill the app wall. If not in the subject of the question, then why write nonsense? One wrote about "tandem dynamic protection", oh how! Another immediately found him how such a defense was breaking through. Maybe for a start it is worth teaching the materiel and understanding what is active, what is dynamic protection, and what is a tandem warhead? And although no, the Chukchi is not a reader, the Chukchi is a writer. And these people still laugh at the homosexuals, that they confuse Iran with Iraq and Chechnya with the Czech Republic.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov April 30 2013 22: 22
      +2
      Nevertheless, developments in the field of tandem dynamic protection are underway. Roughly: explosive charge- metal shield- damping layer- explosive charge- main armor.
      1. BruderV
        BruderV April 30 2013 22: 42
        +1
        Quote: Spade
        Nevertheless, developments in the field of tandem dynamic protection are underway.

        It's just that I only saw the name tandem dynamic protection on the Internet, and so it is called anti-tandem dynamic protection, that is, to protect against ammunition with a tandem combat part. Well, okay, this is literacy for the most part.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov April 30 2013 22: 58
          +2
          It's just that it is technically painfully complex. On the one hand, it is necessary to make sure that the second layer does not detonate from the explosion of the leading charge and the first layer of explosives, and on the other hand, it is within the limits of mass and dimensions.
          So there is no such armor on any serial tank. Only in the cries of alarmists.
          1. aksakal
            aksakal 2 May 2013 09: 16
            +1
            Quote: Spade
            Only in the cries of alarmists.

            - Well, they have screaming and electromagnetic armor, such as super-efficient. Yes, effective, but where can I place a capacitor on the tank that can give out 5 mJ of energy right away? Only it will take 5 cubes of reserved space, I am silent about the source of energy for the capacitor and other extras.
            Quote: Spade
            to prevent the second layer from detonating the leading charge and the first explosive layer,

            - seek an effective damping layer laughing
            Quote: Spade
            on the other hand, keep within the weight and size limits

            - will meet. They will only repeat the path of the Germans during the Second World War, when the Germans have already created the "Mouse" tank weighing almost 100 tons laughing Slowly creep. Already in fact climbed for 65 tons.
  22. Robin_3ON
    Robin_3ON 1 May 2013 00: 04
    +1
    I, as a person who did not serve, is my personal opinion, I think so that such a technique as the Tiger, and even in the kit with Cornet-EM, is exactly the same for the infantry. And not on foot and in the teeth can be hit.
  23. Robin_3ON
    Robin_3ON 1 May 2013 00: 04
    +2
    I, as a person who did not serve, is my personal opinion, I think so that such a technique as the Tiger, and even in the kit with Cornet-EM, is exactly the same for the infantry. And not on foot and in the teeth can be hit.
  24. rumpeljschtizhen
    rumpeljschtizhen 1 May 2013 01: 18
    +2
    the news itself Rogozin causes laughter ...... bolobol he is useless from him
  25. Crang
    Crang 1 May 2013 01: 25
    -3
    Please don't applaud Rogozin. He doesn't even have the same fucker. The Rodina party was destroyed by a bastard.
    1. Kir
      Kir 1 May 2013 02: 05
      +1
      With all the ambiguous attitude towards Rogozin, it’s worth choosing the words. By the way, what happened? And then they overtake one-day ones, and then .......
  26. moskovtsev1964
    moskovtsev1964 1 May 2013 02: 51
    +1
    Dear experts in the modern (future) war, it is not at all necessary to destroy the crew, the main thing is to remove it from the (game) on the battlefield. The use of instant, easily-hardening emulsions (construction foam as an example) blinding a completely mobile object (or bunker) with one shot is what you need to work on
    1. Thunderbolt
      Thunderbolt 1 May 2013 03: 06
      +1
      It is possible that the crew of a combat vehicle damaged by non-lethal weapons will leave it and crumble the thrower of such charges "into the cabbage" from their personal weapons soldier
    2. Kir
      Kir 1 May 2013 14: 50
      +1
      Well, firstly, not foam but foam, but most importantly, I'm sorry this is rare, after drying, crumble, and like no adhesive. the only plus or minus, like any chemistry, has not yet hardened toxic, and if we experiment with it this way is electromagnetic, but let's also say about non-lethality, and about not being able to shield from it, then ... from another question.
    3. I think so
      I think so 1 May 2013 17: 23
      0
      You have touched a very promising area ... I also want to add laser blinding devices to it ... The eyes of tankers are their weakest point ...
  27. Zomanus
    Zomanus 1 May 2013 09: 39
    +1
    The car is certainly not bad ... in theory. Only now, if again a mess at our borders happens, again, how will we fight in the 080808 on antediluvian junk? It seems to me that in the event of hostilities, news must first go to war. Then it will be clear what our Terminators, Cornets and other innovations are worth.
  28. runway
    runway 1 May 2013 11: 04
    0
    "Unfortunately for the Deputy Prime Minister, he managed to make only one rocket launch" ...
    Several hundred thousand rubles were pointedly thrown to the wind. And another excellent student - the ATGM operator, and this year did not get the opportunity to practice launching a combat training missile .... But the main thing is that Rogozin really needs this. He is in fashionable overalls on a tank, he is in a shooting range, he is at a training ground in a fashionable jacket - he is promoting in full (takes an example from senior comrades). Obviously, he also wants to become president. I would very much like not to see their sleek mugs drunk on state grubs, making statements after the banquet, that now they say, I’m ready to fight with ten tanks ....
  29. Aries77
    Aries77 1 May 2013 23: 55
    0
    Quote: PROXOR
    Quote: erased
    In the anti-tank complex, the main thing is the combat module. Although no one belittles the role of the chassis. So Cornet can bet on anything. And as an option - a remotely controlled tracked robot with 4-6 missiles. Subtle, low noise, maneuverable. Such robots already exist, it remains only to develop an option in rockets. And that update is required - for sure. Like most military equipment in the army.

    There is one small caveat. Russia does not have a powerful satellite control constellation like stripes. And yes, two dozen of these rollerbots will kill an armored company as a nefig.

    "Remotely controlled" does not mean "satellite control", you can remotely control anything without satellites ...
  30. Aries77
    Aries77 2 May 2013 00: 05
    0
    Quote: abc_alex
    Some garbage in the article. Well, firstly, the launch range of ATGM 10 km - is this sorry? The horizon on the plain for humans is 5 km. Has anyone heard of third-party target designation for Cornet?
    Secondly, what does it mean "In terms of mobility, survivability and firing range, the missile system is ahead of the gun." Well, I agree with mobility, but in terms of range, which side? The author has not forgotten that the Rapier has a HE shell, which it throws at the same 8+ km?
    Controversial and survivability. Towed guns are usually fired from equipped positions.
    And again, the towed guns are more versatile due to the range of ammunition.

    In addition, the Tiger car for the army does not exist. Those samples that are in the troops now do not satisfy the principles of localization of production.


    1. 10 km - the launch range from the tiger - the height of the line of sight is 3 m, not 1,7 as a human’s, therefore 10 km, and not 5 ... and third-party target designation is not necessary at all, although it does exist ...
    2. As for the rapier - let her RP shell fly 8 km, but what accuracy? in the window at 8 km how will the cornet get?
  31. Aries77
    Aries77 2 May 2013 00: 11
    0
    Quote: Kars
    Quote: PROXOR
    the task of detonation of the dynamic protection

    To do this, she must be able to penetrate at least 30 mm of armor, I'm not talking about simple lattices. From the picture of the hook, I still do not understand what it is .. a flap .. and there are slight doubts that the leading and basic grenade will smash the tank into one place, with a slight difference, that would get into the triggered block DZ.


    When the ATGM gets into the DZ, not one unit is triggered, but about 10-12, so a decent area is freed up ... the operation of the DZ is the same explosion on the armor, only outward ...
  32. Aries77
    Aries77 2 May 2013 00: 15
    0
    Quote: Seraphim
    A tiger with an ATGM is, of course, great. But I don’t understand: why is it always counted the number of the adversary to which this or that system should oppose, only according to the parameters of this very system. "One ATGM against a tank company." Nonsense! And the tanks won't shoot? Aren't NATO tankers and motorized infantry cooperating? They do not have the means to deal with self-propelled ATGMs? Or are we making our calculations based on the confrontation with the Albanian army on the T-34?


    1. "... and tanks that won't shoot?" from a distance of 8 km - let them at least be fired on ... just no sense from this and their shells will not reach and will not hit ...
    2. "And the NATO tankers and motorized infantry do not interact?" Let them at least interact - the motorized infantry goes under the cover of the same tanks ... so that at the same range of 8 km they will begin to lose their cover in the form of tanks ...
    3. "They do not have the means to combat self-propelled ATGMs" - I would like examples ...
    1. Kars
      Kars 2 May 2013 00: 23
      +1
      Quote: Aries77
      1. "... and tanks that won't shoot?" from a distance of 8 km - let them at least be fired on ... just no sense from this and their shells will not reach and will not hit ...


      What did you get it? Do you think modern ballistic calculators and weather stations just invented it? They’ll shoot at the OFS and they don’t need a direct hit. If targets were found, but if the ATGM found a tank, then the tank could very well detect ATGM
      Quote: Aries77
      Let them at least interact - motorized infantry is under the guise of these same tanks ...

      Still there are self-propelled guns, self-propelled minarets and MLRS.
      Quote: Aries77
      When the ATGM gets into the DZ, not one block is triggered, but about 10-12, so the area is freed

      This is also far from a fact, and one can see this by looking at the Syrian chronicle.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Lopatov
      Lopatov 2 May 2013 02: 02
      0
      Quote: Aries77
      from a range of 8 km - let them at least fire at them ... they’re no good at all and their shells will not reach and will not fall ...

      Where did you see such ranges? Unless in the steppe or in the desert. And that is not always the case.

      Quote: Aries77
      Let them at least interact - the motorized infantry goes under the guise of these same tanks ... so that they will lose their cover in the form of tanks at the same 8 km range ...

      And to protect them, they will use their own anti-tank weapons installed on each BMP.
  33. Aries77
    Aries77 2 May 2013 00: 28
    -1
    Quote: BruderV
    Quote: Seraphim
    Or are we making our calculations based on the confrontation with the Albanian army on the T-34?

    Yes, apparently it is. Almost all western tanks have a laser warning system. If this happens, the tower automatically turns to the source of this radiation and the arrow can only measure the range and hit the target, and given the speed of the ATGM, a high-explosive fragmentation projectile will fly over the Tiger much faster. So these tales of the night about 18 tanks by one Tiger, even if they continue to tell effective managers. One effective manager Khrushchev nearly ditched the aviation and armored forces with an idea to solve all problems with missiles. There is apparently a double of two.


    1. Even a standard cornet has an "excess" for most of the rocket flight, the laser radiation is directed not at the target, but higher and only in the final section the beam is lowered onto the target ...
    2. From a range of more than 5 km, the HE shell will not fly to the tiger, because it will not be able to ... they do not fly out of tanks for as much, this is not a howitzer ....
    3. 18 tanks do not have to be hit at all, it’s enough to light 3–4 and the rest turn around .... and if you calculate the damage for the money, correlate the cost of the tank and one cornet rocket .... the profit is such that no oligarchs dream ...
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 2 May 2013 01: 53
      +1
      Tanks cannot ride without infantry. And the infantry has its own anti-tank weapons. So the ATGM, especially on such an idiotic base as the Tiger, is not a superweapon. Something like "Storm" or "Chrysanthemum", and even with equipment for self-digging, there is an opportunity to fight.

      The wheelbase for ATGM makes sense only in one case: when the launcher with control equipment is equipped with a lift
  34. Aries77
    Aries77 2 May 2013 01: 28
    -1
    Quote: Kars
    Quote: Aries77
    1. "... and tanks that won't shoot?" from a distance of 8 km - let them at least be fired on ... just no sense from this and their shells will not reach and will not hit ...


    What did you get it? Do you think modern ballistic calculators and weather stations just invented it? They’ll shoot at the OFS and they don’t need a direct hit. If targets were found, but if the ATGM found a tank, then the tank could very well detect ATGM
    Quote: Aries77
    Let them at least interact - motorized infantry is under the guise of these same tanks ...

    Still there are self-propelled guns, self-propelled minarets and MLRS.
    Quote: Aries77
    When the ATGM gets into the DZ, not one block is triggered, but about 10-12, so the area is freed

    This is also far from a fact, and one can see this by looking at the Syrian chronicle.


    1. Not a single unguided projectile, even with any calculators and weather stations, can be compared in accuracy with a guided missile ATGM.
    2. "There are also self-propelled guns, self-propelled mortars and MLRS" everything is fine, but isn't it too much for one ATGM? if you send such an armada to one ATGM, it's wonderful that half of the army is immediately constrained by one ATGM. And the MLRS must also be hit ..
    3. As for "the tank will also detect the ATGM", I will repeat - it will find it, but except under a smoke screen, it will do nothing ... the arms, as they say, are short ...
    4. I don’t know about the Syrian chronicle, if I look at the links with pleasure, but about the lifting of more than one DZ box - an eyewitness to the ATGM testing range on the armor of the equipped DZ - 3x3 DZ boxes are removed in one hit ....
    1. Kars
      Kars 2 May 2013 11: 25
      +1
      Quote: Aries77
      1. Not a single unguided projectile, even with any calculators and weather stations, can be compared in accuracy with a guided missile ATGM.

      Well KVO of 15-20 meters is enough to defeat open manpower and lightly armored vehicles, especially the OFS with a remote bomb.
      Quote: Aries77
      "There are also self-propelled guns, self-propelled mortars and MLRS" everything is fine, but isn't it too much for one ATGM? if you send such an armada to one ATGM, it’s wonderful that half of the army is immediately constrained by one ATGM. And the MLRS must also be hit

      And here the armada, this is the usual tank, motorized compound. And MLRS hits the areas, and covers hectares with very large fragmentation ammunition.
      Quote: Aries77
      DZ boxes - an eyewitness of the ATGM testing range on the armor of an equipped DZ - 3x3 DZ boxes are removed in one hit
      Contact-1 is likely.
      Quote: Aries77
      3. Regarding "the tank will also detect the ATGM" I will repeat - it will find it, but except under the smoke screen, it will do nothing .... hands, as they say, are short.
      A 125 mm hand gun is more authentic than most shots, it all depends on the detection and aiming systems on the tank, and they are developing rapidly right now. Like laser radiation detection systems. We are not discussing the T-55 army of South Timor, but a modern tank.
      1. Aries77
        Aries77 2 May 2013 19: 41
        -1
        Well KVO of 15-20 meters is enough to defeat open manpower and lightly armored vehicles, especially the OFS with a remote bomb.

        1. Well, for that matter, it’s not a remote fuse, but a non-contact target sensor, and the tiger has bulletproof and anti-fragmentation armor, so that no OFS that bursts in 15 - 20 meters will not cause him any damage ...

        We are not discussing the T-55 army of South Timor, but a modern tank.
        2. Yes, not the T-55 of South Timor, but maybe you know the percentage of "modern" tanks in the armies of the world? are you sure that they will be thrown to burn? Merkavas, for example, were withdrawn from South Lebanon within XNUMX hours, when they realized that they were losing immeasurably more than they would like ...
        1. Kars
          Kars 3 May 2013 11: 54
          -1
          Quote: Aries77
          so that no OFS bursting in 15 - 20 meters will not cause him any damage ...

          Damage will be drop dead, the integrity of the PU is not discussed at all.
          Quote: Aries77
          ocent "modern" tanks in the armies of the world?

          It seems bigger than the Cornets.
          Quote: Aries77
          Merkavas, for example, were taken out of southern Lebanon during the day when they realized that they were losing disproportionately more than we would like

          Who said such nonsense?
          http://www.waronline.org/IDF/Articles/history/2nd-lebanon-war/acv-losses/
  35. krpmlws
    krpmlws 2 May 2013 09: 05
    +1
    Quote: Spade
    Tanks cannot ride without infantry. And the infantry has its own anti-tank weapons. So the ATGM, especially on such an idiotic base as the Tiger, is not a superweapon. Something like "Storm" or "Chrysanthemum", and even with equipment for self-digging, there is an opportunity to fight.

    The wheelbase for ATGM makes sense only in one case: when the launcher with control equipment is equipped with a lift
    I agree that we need floating cars of the Chrysanthemum type, heavy vehicles with anti-ballistic armor can also be useful, but not the Terminator, but with an ammunition pack in the case and an automatic reloading device.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 2 May 2013 09: 53
      +1
      I would not concentrate on the possibility of swimming. There is good, no, and God be with him.
      Self-dipping equipment is the first. So that the machine can heat up at least in front of itself the earthen shaft by closing the case. Crawler base is the second. Only she meets mobility requirements on the battlefield.

      On wheeled vehicles based on the "Tiger" - only as a weapons transporter. So that it was possible to launch from a machine (with a pivot), but the main method was launch from the ground. "Cornet" thing is not portable, but transportable. Because it's too heavy. Fagot has the same problems - with the 111th missile it can be considered portable, with the 113th, which has great capabilities, only with a stretch. A bit heavy.

      We need to think about installing launcher and equipment on the lift. Here the wheel chassis may well come up.

      Quote: krpmlws
      heavy vehicles with ballistic armor can also be useful, but not the Terminator, but with the ammunition in the hull and automatic reloading.

      This is yes. Only not with ammunition, but with a retractable launcher, as on "Shturm" or "Chrysanthemum"
      The same PU "Quartet" installed on the "Tiger" can be easily screwed to the BMO-T
      1. krpmlws
        krpmlws 2 May 2013 17: 41
        0
        1.With the USSR, swimming abilities attached great importance, as well as working out forcing rivers, and they did it right, as it’s enough to look at a map of the European part of Russia and assess the landscape))). 2. I had an automatic loader and I had the type like Chrysanthemum, where she has rockets in the hull.
      2. krpmlws
        krpmlws 2 May 2013 17: 49
        0
        Self-digging, of course, is a necessary thing. Caterpillars are obligatory, wheels are from the evil one. Look at the archive chronicle of how much the troops had to get into the mud. Our strategists believe that hostilities will take place only on the highway, if at all capable of thinking. Therefore, the main means ATGM Tiger should not be.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 2 May 2013 18: 04
          +1
          Moving around the battlefield itself does not allow the use of wheels.
          1. Aries77
            Aries77 2 May 2013 21: 48
            0
            Lopatov RU Today, 18:04 ↑

            Moving around the battlefield itself does not allow the use of wheels.

            Perhaps you are not aware, but the main self-propelled ATGM of the Soviet era "Konkurs" is located on the basis of the BRDM - it was a wheeled vehicle and no one complained about its movement across the battlefield ...
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 2 May 2013 22: 11
              0
              I know. Moreover, once I had to pull it out with my KShMkoy. Shot, and back, no, no. Such an affront. The wheels are not a model of cross-country ability, and the BRDM-2 is no different from her, even against the background of the rest of the wheeled vehicles.

              And that is precisely why "Contests" even in Soviet times began to be actively replaced by "Sturm-S", which, surprisingly, was on the MT-LB chassis.
  36. Aries77
    Aries77 2 May 2013 09: 56
    -1
    Quote: Spade
    Quote: Aries77
    from a range of 8 km - let them at least fire at them ... they’re no good at all and their shells will not reach and will not fall ...

    Where did you see such ranges? Unless in the steppe or in the desert. And that is not always the case.

    Quote: Aries77
    Let them at least interact - the motorized infantry goes under the guise of these same tanks ... so that they will lose their cover in the form of tanks at the same 8 km range ...

    And to protect them, they will use their own anti-tank weapons installed on each BMP.


    1. One of the main objectives of the ATGM is the fight against enemy tanks. In your opinion, will tanks advance in the mountains and impassable forests and jungle?
    2. As for the anti-tank weapons "installed on each BMP", can you give more details with examples, performance characteristics and descriptions? In our army, for example, there are no ATGMs on BMPs that could oppose something to the "Cornet-EM" ...
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 2 May 2013 10: 33
      0
      Quote: Aries77
      In your opinion, will tanks advance in the mountains and impassable forests and jungle?

      And what, religious principles do not allow them to advance on the mountains? Remember the actions of the 31st Panzer Corps in the Carpathians, remember the throw through the Big and Small Khingan. We have no jungle, but most of our border territories are closed and semi-closed areas, where shooting at the maximum range with the Kornet is impossible.

      Quote: Aries77
      As for the anti-tank weapons "installed on each BMP", can you give more details with examples, performance characteristics and descriptions? In our army, for example, there are no ATGMs on BMPs that could oppose something to the "Cornet-EM" ...

      This is a huge question. For example, the Americans have a Tou-2 on the Bradley, and the infantry squad has a portable one inside, either a Dragon or a Javelin.
      1. aksakal
        aksakal 2 May 2013 10: 42
        0
        Quote: Spade
        And what, in the mountains they are not allowed to attack religious principles?

        - they can, but not in all the mountains and not in all the jungle. Do not forget that when you climb 30 degrees, the engine will have to drag half the weight of the tank, and at 45 degrees - already more than 70% and then sharply increase. When moving on a flat surface, the engine does not drag the weight of the tank, but overcomes its inertia of rest. But even this requires almost one and a half thousand. In the mountains there are many different places where the tank does not even crawl. For example, the same notorious Aktan-kergen, where 15 border guards died. They can’t get there on horseback in winter, only in summer, I’m generally silent about technology -))))
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 2 May 2013 10: 46
          -1
          Along the roads, in the valleys. Tanks in the mountains have been used for a long time and successfully.
  37. crasever
    crasever 2 May 2013 15: 09
    0
    Positive, but what about !!! If the authorities show real interest in their Armed Forces, it means that the point of view of certain circles of the Russian elite won that all achievements are good and beneficial when they are defended by the armed forces. Albeit slowly, through extremes like Taburetkin, but still the army gradually takes its place in society ...
  38. sniper
    sniper 2 May 2013 16: 01
    0
    Good day, dear! Somehow the meaning of the dispute was lost ... Well, there is an ATGM on the Tiger ... How is it worse than just in the hands? What does the heavily armored chassis have to do with it? The task of such complexes is not to arrange duels with tanks, but to quickly destroy the enemy from an ambush, according to the principle, he bit and ran away and bit again ... So the chassis must be maneuverable, fast and cheap ... And such " bees "there must be a lot ... So what's the noise? In my opinion, a wonderful device ...
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 2 May 2013 18: 20
      0
      You see, the task is just to arrange a duel. The very tasks assigned to the anti-tankists require, roughly speaking, to fight to the death. So that behind their backs the infantry could take up defenses. Buying time, in short. And here the option "bit and run away" is unacceptable. The biggest thing that is allowed is changing the firing position. At the same time, the battery must hold its 2 km of front at all costs.

      That's why the tracks are needed to fully move to the battlefield. Well, the track height is much less, which will also help a lot.
      1. sniper
        sniper 2 May 2013 19: 28
        +1
        Quote: Spade
        At the same time, the battery should keep its 2km front at all costs.

        Let the battery hold it, but the bees from the flanks will help ... This is not a replacement for the existing anti-tank systems, but an addition ... The tanks broke through, try to transfer the anti-tank battery, and here you can burn, catch up and burn them on the march ... But for duels there is another technique, didn’t it occur to you to bury helicopters in the ground? flew in, shot back and flew away, and so ...
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 2 May 2013 19: 38
          0
          But these "bees" are the very battery, which needs nine vehicles to hold 2 km of the front. No infantry.
          1. sniper
            sniper 2 May 2013 20: 05
            0
            Quote: Spade
            But these "bees" are the same battery,

            Yes, where did you get ??? Their only advantage is high mobility at a relatively low cost, and they must be used as mobile maneuverable weapons, and not buried in the ground ... It’s easier and cheaper to plant grenade launchers in trenches, they will not be so noticeable ...
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 2 May 2013 20: 13
              +1
              Actually, I took this from an article. From a statement bordering on idiocy

              According to him, one unit of such equipment can destroy up to 16 enemy tanks, due to which eight vehicles have the same efficiency as the anti-tank artillery division, armed with guns like the MT-12 Rapira. Thus, only a dozen anti-tank systems on a wheeled chassis are enough to ensure the defense of an entire motorized rifle brigade.
              1. sniper
                sniper 2 May 2013 20: 21
                +1
                Quote: Spade
                From a statement bordering on idiocy

                Well then let it remain on the conscience of the journalist ... drinks
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 2 May 2013 20: 25
                  0
                  Chirkin is not a journalist. He is the commander of the Ground Forces.

                  In addition, there is no other place in the OSH except for the anti-tank divisions of motorized rifle brigades for such a machine.
                  1. sniper
                    sniper 2 May 2013 20: 38
                    +2
                    Quote: Spade
                    He is the commander of the Ground Forces.

                    Well, they’re publicizing new equipment with Rogozin, they’re doing the right thing ... They don’t claim that with this we will replace the rest, but simply compare the losses of the enemy that he can suffer from the anti-tank battery and from the new complex .... Moreover, under ideal conditions ... And they have different ideal conditions ...
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 2 May 2013 20: 48
                      +1
                      Well, he’s a combined arms soldier, that there are no subordinate artillerymen who would say that this pepelats is needed in the troops, like a dog’s fifth leg? You need to know what PR.
                      1. sniper
                        sniper 2 May 2013 20: 55
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        You need to know what PR.

                        You need to PR everything that you can sell! By the way, do you really think that the application of this technique cannot be found ???
                      2. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 2 May 2013 21: 14
                        +1
                        Quote: sniper
                        By the way, do you really think that the application of this technique cannot be found ???

                        In this form, no.

                        The launcher itself can be installed on the "Shell" for the Airborne Forces. It will quite pull.

                        If for the "Tiger" - "Lynx", then the installation in the sunroof on the pivot, instead of a machine gun or AGS. In extreme cases, launch from it, but the main method is remote from the ground.
                      3. sniper
                        sniper 2 May 2013 21: 29
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        In this form, no.

                        You know better ... What a pity, I like the machine ... smile
                      4. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 2 May 2013 22: 03
                        +1
                        I like the Azerbaijani version more
                      5. studentmati
                        studentmati 3 May 2013 01: 01
                        +1
                        Good night, Nikolai and good health! Designers have long decided that it’s more efficient. The answer is now for the politicians ...
                      6. sniper
                        sniper 3 May 2013 14: 52
                        0
                        Quote: studentmati
                        The answer is now for the politicians ...

                        Greetings, Alexander! Glad to see you in good health! drinks
                        Well, as for political decisions, what shall we wait ...
              2. Aries77
                Aries77 2 May 2013 21: 34
                0
                Lopatov RU Today, 20:48 ↑ New

                Well, he’s a combined arms soldier, that there are no subordinate artillerymen who would say that this pepelats is needed in the troops, like a dog’s fifth leg? You need to know what PR.

                Yes, of course the fifth leg .... and four legs is a bottle with a Molotov cocktail, an RPG-7 and a bassoon with a contest ... they are certainly much better ... oh, yes, I forgot there are also anti-tank guns ... MLRS and attack aircraft ...
              3. Lopatov
                Lopatov 2 May 2013 22: 00
                +2
                Quote: Aries77
                and bassoon with competition

                Did you know that they are essentially the same thing? That "Konkurs" is the "Fagot" BRDM-2 chassis? And do you know that there are no more "Competitions" in the troops, and "Fagots" remained only on BMP-2 and BMD-2? That the main anti-tank missile system remained in the army "Shturm-S", which is being upgraded to "Shturm-SM"?

                But this device is what you do not like?

                But this one?

                This one?
              4. Aries77
                Aries77 2 May 2013 22: 10
                0
                1. Actually, the Bassoon and the Competition are different complexes - they have different missiles ....
                2. About the fact that they were not left in the troops, I am aware, it was not in vain that I wrote "Soviet" ... but they did not go into the past that they were on a wheeled, not on a tracked chassis ...
                3. Do you know that in all three photos - Cornet? and not an assault and an assault-cm?
                4. The main disadvantage of the vehicles in the photo is that there are only 2 missiles ready for launch, while Kornet-EM has 8 of them, TPVP does not have an automatic guidance system and their range is up to 5,5 km, unless of course you use Kornet-EM missiles "...
                So the weak argument ...
              5. Lopatov
                Lopatov 2 May 2013 22: 34
                0
                Quote: Aries77
                Actually, the Bassoon and the Competition are different complexes - they have different missiles ..

                Their missiles are the same, 111th and 113th. It's just that the latter is heavier and therefore inconvenient to carry. But "Fagot" shoots her perfectly, which I myself have done several times personally.

                Quote: Aries77
                About the fact that they were not left in the troops, I am aware, it was not for nothing that I wrote "Soviet" ... but they did not go into the past that they were on a wheeled chassis, not on a tracked chassis ...

                That is why they began to be replaced by tracked "Shturm-S" back in the USSR.

                Quote: Aries77
                Do you know that in all three photos - Cornet? and not an assault and an assault-cm?

                Of course in the know. At the exam I had a question about his management system. Needless to say, previously I covered him all.
                The fact is that I did not find the photos of "Sturm-SM" on the network, only the old one, not modernized.
                But why "Cornets"? Yes, because you do not even think about that. that they can be installed on a normal chassis, and not on this ... "Tiger"


                Quote: Aries77
                The main disadvantage of the vehicles in the photo is only 2 missiles ready for launch, while Kornet-EM has 8 of them

                In fact, the capture of a new container from the drum kit occurs automatically immediately after starting the previous one. I hope you have not forgotten that the target must be followed before it hits, and during this time the automatic loading process can be done several times?
              6. Aries77
                Aries77 2 May 2013 22: 48
                +1
                1. Missiles are different - 111 was made for the portable bassoon complex, and then 113 was developed for the self-propelled Competition and after the development of the competition they began to use it in the bassoon ... the complex remained the bassoon ... and if you shot at least with any then ptrk, you should know that it’s not the rocket index that determines the name of the anti-tank system
                2. I don’t know about the caterpillar assaults ... at parades on the Red Square, contests went from 1980 to 2000 ...
                3. Well, why do not I suppose that it is possible on a crawler chassis, I very much admit ... there are modernization options for both BMP-1 and BMP-2, which are on tracked chassis, which have 4 corners per tower ...
                4. grabbing a container is good, but escorting before hitting is not an advantage, but Kornet-EM has 2 APUs that can fire simultaneously at two different targets, or you can fire two missiles at one (especially important) target with one APU two missiles in one beam ... while reloading is not required 8 missiles are ready to launch ....
              7. Lopatov
                Lopatov 2 May 2013 23: 18
                +1
                Quote: Aries77
                .and if you shot at least from some anti-tank systems, you should know that it is not the rocket index that determines the name of the anti-tank system

                Exactly. That is why I say that both "Fagot" and "Competition" fire the same rockets. Moreover, with the "Competition" can shoot from the stem.

                Quote: Aries77
                I don’t know about the caterpillar assaults ... at parades on the Red Square, contests went from 1980 to 2000 ...

                They just started replacing them with anti-tank brigades. Well, "Storm" at the parade is not serious. Regular MT-LB. She cannot ride with the launcher extended


                Quote: Aries77
                Well, why don’t I suppose that it’s possible on a tracked chassis, I very much admit ... there are modernization options for both BMP-1 and BMP-2, which are on tracked chassis, which have 4 corners on a tower ...

                Never confuse anti-tank weapons of motorized rifles with weapons of anti-tank artillery. Different tasks, different principles of application, different submissions.


                Quote: Aries77
                grabbing a container is good, but escorting before hitting is not an advantage

                Firstly, it is not at all a problem to install an automatic target tracking machine on the installation located on the BMP-3 base. And that was exactly what had to be done, and not screwing the "Cornet" to the stale product of Mr. Deripaska called "Tiger".
                Secondly, why such confidence in the absolute reliability of auto tracking of targets, especially moving ones?
              8. Aries77
                Aries77 3 May 2013 00: 16
                +1
                1. You can shoot with remote PU ... you can chase a Ferrari on a bicycle, but why?
                2. It is precisely the Shturm in the fighting position that it cannot ride, and the competition can ...
                3. The tasks are exactly the same - the defeat of tanks, and for this the same means - anti-tank missiles ...
                4. You, my friend, have lagged behind progress ... that way for 20 years ... on the BMP-3 there has long been a combat module "Bakhcha", which has everything and a rangefinder and an automatic tracking machine and a thermal imager ... and guided missiles, fired from a barrel 100 mm cannon ... and accompanies ground targets and stationary and mobile ...
                5. And I don't know about Deripaska ... in this complex the carrier, that is, the tiger is not the main thing ... you can put it on another car, as they say, "any whim for your money", you didn't care who will be yours to drag towed artillery, even horses, even cars, and at certain moments and soldiers ... the gun does not change from this ...
              9. Lopatov
                Lopatov 3 May 2013 00: 54
                +1
                Quote: Aries77
                You can shoot with remote PU ... you can chase a Ferrari on a bicycle, but why?

                We used portable "Fagots" in the mountains (what you said, "drag to a high-rise"), two "Urals" were screwed up. And in settlements. In my presence, they zhahnuli at the firing point in the basement window. The infantry really liked it.
                When they blocked the border with Georgia, there were transferred helicopters to the seconded operators with the settings removed from the BMP.

                Quote: Aries77
                Exactly the Shturm in a fighting position cannot ride, and the competition can ...

                And you can't pick your nose with a hammer. You can't shoot on the move anyway, but otherwise, the "Shturm" also has automatic loading from the drum. Immediately after start-up, the installation discards the old container and lifts the new container. And his practical rate of fire is higher - a supersonic rocket.

                Quote: Aries77
                You, my friend, have lagged behind progress ... that way for 20 years ... on the BMP-3 there has long been a combat module "Bakhcha"

                And what does the Bakhcha have to do with anti-tank artillery? He wrote the infantry separately, anti-tank crews separately.

                Quote: Aries77
                And I don’t know about Deripaska ... in this complex, the carrier, that is, the tiger is not the main thing ..

                Here, just the main thing. Attempts are continuing to draw in the army from which it has been strenuously kicking back for many years.

                Quote: Aries77
                you didn’t care who would drag your towed artillery, even horses, even cars, and at certain moments and soldiers ... the gun doesn’t change from this ...

                Don't tell. For example, a towed Genocide can normally be carried only by KRAZ
              10. studentmati
                studentmati 3 May 2013 00: 57
                +1
                I respect the dialogue of the pros! drinks You can learn a lot of interesting things. good
              11. Aries77
                Aries77 3 May 2013 01: 35
                0
                1. Automatic loading from the drum is good, but only the competition stopped and immediately shoots, and the assault must be loaded from the drum and raised to the firing position - this is already a waste of time, so you can argue about the best rate of fire ...
                2. As for the BMP, you yourself wrote "it would be better to attach cornets to the BMP", and about the infantry separately, the anti-tank crews separately - this is the problem of our army, we have everything separately, instead of creating universal units depending on possible targets on the battlefield ...
                3. not the army kicks back, but army officials to purchase abroad ... there will be more kickbacks ...
                4. Well, why only kraz? are there any other big machines? I repeat the tiger in this complex is not the main thing - it is the carrier of nothing more ...
              12. Lopatov
                Lopatov 3 May 2013 01: 55
                0
                Quote: Aries77
                Automatic loading from the drum is good, but only the competition stopped and immediately shoots, and the assault must be loaded from the drum and put into a fighting position - this is already a waste of time, so it’s better to argue about the rate of fire ...

                Who told you such nonsense? "Competition" also skates with the launcher retracted. With PU in a firing position only on the asphalt, and even then, when instead of missiles, empty containers.
                Well, the combat rate of fire is what to watch, "Sturm's rocket speed is twice as high

                Quote: Aries77
                As for the bmp, you yourself wrote "it would be better to attach cornets to bmp"

                To the BMP base. Do not confuse warm with soft.

                Quote: Aries77
                not the army kicks back, but army officials to buy abroad ... there will be more kickbacks ...

                It is the army. Because she does not need this car. But the officials bought it. I don’t know for the kickbacks, or from the very top the team came.

                Quote: Aries77
                Well, why only kraz? are there any other big machines?

                Another MT-LB. But it is impossible to place transportable ammunition on it.

                So here, the carrier reduces the combat effectiveness of the complex at times.
  • Kir
    Kir 2 May 2013 20: 24
    0
    But what can you expect from a MGIMO graduate? Another thing for what these things "wise words" are published by journalists. this is something worth pondering.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 2 May 2013 20: 30
      0
      He is from Alma-Ata woku.
  • zvereok
    zvereok 2 May 2013 16: 29
    +1
    On the issue of purchase Min. defense, buggy. Imagine a machine armed with a machine gun and such a complex that could still force the rivers. We receive the Light cavalry of a new time! A retreating enemy in narrow necks like bridges is doomed.
    1. Denis
      Denis 2 May 2013 17: 08
      +1
      Quote: zvereok
      buggy. Imagine a machine armed with a machine gun and such a complex that could still force the rivers. We receive the Light cavalry of a new time! A retreating enemy in narrow necks like bridges is doomed.
      While the project is doomed
      How to combine a workhorse and quivering doe?
      Even jeeps and even more so painted paint Urvers are inferior to buggies in fuel, service and price
      And auto-amphibians all the more
      While the word for the designers
    2. Lopatov
      Lopatov 2 May 2013 18: 22
      0
      As an arms transporter, a good idea. The main task is to transport missiles and a portable launcher, if necessary, launch from a pivot installation.
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. svp67
      svp67 2 May 2013 17: 24
      0
      Quote: smershspy
      Again similar to "HAMMER"!
      No, it’s not like, for this you just need to see them together and you can see how different they are ...
      1. Denis
        Denis 2 May 2013 23: 12
        0
        Quote: svp67
        Quote: smershspy
        Again similar to "HAMMER"! No, it doesn't look like, for this you just need to see them together and it becomes clear how different they are ...

        How wearyness was weary:
        1. zhipy merit of mattress-how work Gracheva?
        2.Tu-144-soviet concord - take an interest in the terms of the first flight
        3. "Buran" copied ...
        etc.
        stop licking
        svp67, this is not about you, about the opponent
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 2 May 2013 23: 27
          0
          And nevertheless, when the "Tiger" was created by order of the Jordanians, the task was to make exactly an analogue of the "Humvee"
  • Aries77
    Aries77 2 May 2013 19: 33
    0
    Quote: Spade
    Quote: Aries77
    In your opinion, will tanks advance in the mountains and impassable forests and jungle?

    And what, religious principles do not allow them to advance on the mountains? Remember the actions of the 31st Panzer Corps in the Carpathians, remember the throw through the Big and Small Khingan. We have no jungle, but most of our border territories are closed and semi-closed areas, where shooting at the maximum range with the Kornet is impossible.

    Quote: Aries77
    As for the anti-tank weapons "installed on each BMP", can you give more details with examples, performance characteristics and descriptions? In our army, for example, there are no ATGMs on BMPs that could oppose something to the "Cornet-EM" ...

    This is a huge question. For example, the Americans have a Tou-2 on the Bradley, and the infantry squad has a portable one inside, either a Dragon or a Javelin.


    1. In the Carpathian mountains it is very easy to find a range of 8 and 10 km - occupy any skyscraper and hit it along the road on another mountain ... everything will be in full view - but you can only be reached from the air .. and it is very easy to lock a column of tanks on the road ... as the Afghan showed ...
    2. Dragon and Dzhevelin - medium-range ATGM - 2 - 2,5 km, so "Cornetu-EM" from 8 - 10 km are not opponents and tanks will not defend in any way ...
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 2 May 2013 19: 41
      0
      Quote: Aries77
      In the Carpathian mountains it is very easy to find a range of 8 and 10 km - occupy any skyscraper and hit it along the road on another mountain ... everything will be in full view

      I would like to see the process of dragging the "Tiger" to such a high-rise in the Carpathians.


      Quote: Aries77
      Dragon and Dzhevelin - medium-range ATGM - 2 - 2,5 km, so "Cornetu-EM" from 8 - 10 km - these are not opponents and tanks will not protect ...

      Once again: where can you find such ranges? Don't you confuse "Tiger" with a helicopter?
  • Aries77
    Aries77 2 May 2013 21: 18
    0
    Quote: Spade
    Quote: Aries77
    In the Carpathian mountains it is very easy to find a range of 8 and 10 km - occupy any skyscraper and hit it along the road on another mountain ... everything will be in full view

    I would like to see the process of dragging the "Tiger" to such a high-rise in the Carpathians.


    Quote: Aries77
    Dragon and Dzhevelin - medium-range ATGM - 2 - 2,5 km, so "Cornetu-EM" from 8 - 10 km - these are not opponents and tanks will not protect ...

    Once again: where can you find such ranges? Don't you confuse "Tiger" with a helicopter?


    1. You don’t need to drag him anywhere - he will reach him ...
    2. No, I'm not confusing ... the helicopter, for your information, also not vertically down from a height of 2 km into tanks, but from a low altitude, because the guidance system has restrictions on guidance angles .... in the movie "Black Shark "it is very well shown how the helicopter operates against ground targets with guided weapons ...
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 2 May 2013 21: 36
      0
      Quote: Aries77
      You don’t have to drag him anywhere - he’ll get there ...

      I saw the wheeled vehicles "driving by themselves" in the mountains. That is why I would like to see the epic act of dragging the "Tiger" up the hill.


      Quote: Aries77
      No, I don’t confuse ... the helicopter, for your information, also does not hit the tanks vertically from a height of 2 km, but from a low altitude, because the guidance system has restrictions on guidance angles .... in the film "Black Shark" it is very it is well shown how the helicopter operates against ground targets with guided weapons ...

      Do you know trigonometry? Given: range 10 km. The angle is 10 degrees. From what height is the application possible? Right, 1700 m.
      1. Aries77
        Aries77 2 May 2013 21: 52
        0
        why are you so free to choose angles? why 10 degrees and not 20 for example? And why did you get the idea that helicopter pilots are kamikazes to walk freely at an altitude of 2 km without fear of enemy air defense, which is in one form or another in all units?
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 2 May 2013 22: 16
          0
          Quote: Aries77
          why 10 degrees and not 20 for example?

          Because it is indicated in the performance characteristics of "Vortex". The same one that is on the Ka-50 you mentioned.

          Quote: Aries77
          And why did you get the idea that helicopter pilots are kamikazes to walk around freely at an altitude of 2 km without fear of enemy air defense

          Do you find the crew of the Tiger on the hill less kamikazi? The helicopter can at least move
          1. Aries77
            Aries77 2 May 2013 22: 25
            0
            And precisely because the helicopter "can move", it rises above the hill, makes a launch, accompanies the target until the missile hits and then goes down behind the hill ...
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 2 May 2013 22: 48
              0
              This is how it differs from the "Tiger" on the hill.
              1. Aries77
                Aries77 2 May 2013 22: 50
                0
                That's it, and not the fact that from a height of 1700 m it will shoot at tanks ....
  • Aries77
    Aries77 2 May 2013 21: 36
    0
    Quote: Spade
    Quote: sniper
    By the way, do you really think that the application of this technique cannot be found ???

    In this form, no.

    The launcher itself can be installed on the "Shell" for the Airborne Forces. It will quite pull.

    If for the "Tiger" - "Lynx", then the installation in the sunroof on the pivot, instead of a machine gun or AGS. In extreme cases, launch from it, but the main method is remote from the ground.


    Could a highly respected specialist in ground-based launchers give you at least one advantage over Kornet-EM except, of course, visibility?
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 2 May 2013 22: 04
      0
      Mobility is more.
      1. Aries77
        Aries77 2 May 2013 22: 16
        +1
        what do you think is mobility?
        The fact that the soldiers pull out a launcher - 25 kg from a stopped car, then a 30 kg rocket and run to take a position ... have you ever run with a 30 kg cylinder more than a meter long in your hand? and how long do you think they will take a position and be ready for launch, will the tank wait? and in a self-propelled ATGM like "Competition", like "Kornet-EM" missiles are already on the guides, after 30 seconds the guides come out of the vehicle body into a firing position and you can shoot ... and most importantly - the soldiers do not need to carry anything, pick it up missiles fallen from the hands of a stumbled soldier and think - leave it and run back to the car for a new one or charge this one, and what if it explodes when launched?
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 2 May 2013 22: 38
          0
          Actually, the ATGM takes positions in advance. And in the course of the battle, the change of positions with the "pychom" can be made much faster than taxiing out on the "Tiger"

          Well, about running, or not, my friend, I'm an artilleryman. You have no idea what I had to run around with. Can you imagine what it means to occupy KNP with a range finder DAK-2 on a hump?
          1. Aries77
            Aries77 2 May 2013 22: 54
            0
            and you do not compare yourself and modern conscripts, who even have a "quiet hour" introduced, and officers at this time clean the snow on the territory ...
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 2 May 2013 23: 35
              0
              And with whom to compare? With these fighters?



              Do you know that the support plate of the penultimate weighs 17 kg? And with this, they not only run around.
  • Azaat
    Azaat 2 May 2013 23: 22
    0
    To be honest, I would not like to be a carrier on this "cat", since while the "Cornet" complex is being deployed, I will already be detected and neutralized.
  • studentmati
    studentmati 2 May 2013 23: 31
    +2
    Another cheap PR citizen Dmitry Olegovich Rogozin. Kremlin analysts - stop this show, or swap clowns. The idea is beautiful and correct, but the performers are mediocre. In the eyes of the citizen, there is complete emptiness and misunderstanding of what is happening.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 2 May 2013 23: 45
      +1
      Do you know what the catch is? Rogozin fired from the Metis-M1, a slightly modified version of the Metis-M that entered service 21 years ago. It’s time to change it for a new one. And he "promotes" him.
      1. studentmati
        studentmati 2 May 2013 23: 48
        0
        The show goes on? The kid stupidly cuts loot on the number of articles and photos in the press!
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 2 May 2013 23: 53
          +1
          Maybe he is preparing himself as a replacement for Putin?
      2. Aries77
        Aries77 3 May 2013 00: 22
        0
        maybe you know and what is the difference between "Metis-M" and "Metis-M1", what is "slightly modified"?
        Not all, for your information, put into service 21 years ago is bad ... Tunguska made a splash in aub-dhabi in 93, after 12 years of adopting the Soviet army ... and so far the adversaries have nothing of the kind. ..
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 3 May 2013 00: 30
          0
          New rockets. But the appearance of 9M113 did not make "Fagot-M1" out of the "Fagot".

          Well, as for the rest, now on the world arms market in the segment of short-range portable ATGMs, a serious battle has been fought between Spike and Javelin. Do you think the wire-controlled Metis has a chance?
          1. Aries77
            Aries77 3 May 2013 00: 50
            0
            1. As for the bassoon and bassoon m1 - If you put Toyota wheels on the Honda, they will fit and the Honda will drive them perfectly, but it will not become a Toyota.
            2. And about spikes and jewels in comparison with a mestizo:
            - a rocket, that a spike, that Jewel is equipped with a GOS, and accordingly with each launch a lot of money flies out about 10 times more than when a mestizo is launched, and accordingly, instead of one spike rocket, you can buy 10 mestizos ... the tangible benefit ...
            - Javelins in Iraqi striped marines threw when they began to intercept on the trajectory the hotter wrecked tanks and took up the good old wire to ...
            - the execution time of one shot from the march at the mestizo is 10 s, and at jewelin and spike 1,5 minutes - it takes time to cool the target, capture the target, and now figure out where it will be in 1,5 minutes for a tank moving at you at a speed 70 km / h from a range of 2 km ....
            - in addition, try to shoot a rocket with a thermal Dzhevelin’s Gevelin on a cold bunker, I’ll see how long your GOS will capture it, but the half-temperature of the target nevermind - the gunner sees the target - can shoot ... whether it’s a tank or a bunker or a tree that is tired of your eyes ....
            - Spike and Jewelin are a fashionable weapon, but not at all for war ... it's like nanotechnology - everyone talks about them, everyone wants to, but not everyone can afford it, and especially not everyone has it ..
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 3 May 2013 01: 37
              0
              Quote: Aries77
              a rocket, that a spike, that a Jewel’s is equipped with a GOS, and accordingly with each launch a lot of money flies out about 10 times more than when a mestizo starts, and accordingly instead of one spike rocket you can buy 10 mestizos ... the tangible benefits ...

              But the probability of getting higher. Well, the safety of the calculation ... Metis its maximum range of 2000 m flies 12 seconds. And all this time the operator must keep the target in the sighting mark. Given that the shot complex unambiguously unmasks, the probability of destruction of the calculation is very high.

              Quote: Aries77
              the javelins in Iraq marines threw striped when they began to intercept on the trajectory hotter wrecked tanks and took up the good old wire

              Tales. The Javelin remembers the target's IR signature. And no "re-captures" are possible in principle. In addition, during the entire war there was only one case of massive use of Javelins against armored vehicles.
              For the "Tou" no one "took", they are nominally installed on the "Bradley", "Humvee" and LAV-TOW. And they were applied from the very beginning.

              Quote: Aries77
              the execution time of one shot from the march at the mestizo is 10 s, and at jewelin and spike 1,5 minutes - it takes time to cool the seeker, capture the target seeker, and now figure out where it will be in 1,5 minutes for a tank moving at you at a speed of 70 km / h from a range of 2 km ....

              Don't lump everything together. "Spike" has an uncooled seeker, and therefore, unlike "Javelin", does not require 30 seconds to prepare for a shot.

              Quote: Aries77
              in addition, try to shoot a rocket with a hot ghevel gevelin on a cold bunker i'll see how long your ghos will grab it, and the half-temperature of the target nevermind - the gunner sees the target - can shoot ... whether it's a tank or bunker or a tree that is bored with your eyes. ...

              The "coldness" of the bunker does not matter here. Its temperature is different from that of the soil, which means you can shoot at it.

              Quote: Aries77
              spike and jewel are a fashionable weapon, but not at all for war ... it's like nanotechnology - everybody talks about them, everyone wants to, but not everyone can afford it, and especially not everyone has it ..

              I'm afraid the 31 countries that have them in service will disagree with you. Well, about "not everyone can afford it, the same Ecuador, Chile or Peru are by no means rich countries.
              1. Aries77
                Aries77 3 May 2013 09: 00
                0
                1. Well, of course - 12 s is a lot, especially when you consider that Jewel needs 30 s only to keep the target in sight to capture the GOS missile ...
                2. about the infrared signature of the target - these are just the tales, because the capture is made on the ground, and after the start the jewel flies up (to ensure defeat from above) and imagine how the target signature changes ...
                3. You yourself say "there was only one massive case of the use of Jewels against armored vehicles", and did not wonder why? although the United States fought 3 wars in parallel? Yes, because Jewelin is not a combat complex, but a greenhouse advertised export product. And precisely in order to adjust it at least a little to the possibility of using it in real combat, they begin to modernize it, so that instead of the principle of "fired - forgot" to implement "fired - I observe and correct" ...
                4. Have you ever tried looking at a television picture to find a tank against a forest? without a thermal imager - complete dohlyat ...
                5. It is interesting how much, in your opinion, the temperature of the bunker or bunker differs from the surrounding temperature and when answering, keep in mind that wars are not always waged in clear sunny weather, when the sun heats some objects more than others ...
                6. Well, about how the United States and Israel promote their weapons for export, through loans, I think you will not argue ... but for a comparison of prices and procured quantities, see the article on the purchase of anti-tank systems of Peruvian military forces Peru http://rbase.new -factoria.ru/news/suhoputnye-voyska-peru-priobretut-v-2012-godu-
                dopolnitelnuyu-partiyu-ptrk /
                7. 31 countries are good - of course, Chile and Ecuador, but how many pieces will they buy from 10 to 12? compare the number of exported cornets and jewels and everything will fall into place ...
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 3 May 2013 10: 04
                  0
                  Quote: Aries77
                  Well, of course - 12 s is a lot, especially considering that Jewel needs 30 s only to keep the target in sight to capture the GOS missile ...

                  These 30 seconds to keep the target in sight does not make sense. He said that at this time the GOS is cooling.

                  Quote: Aries77
                  about the infrared signature of the target - this is just the tales, because the capture is made on the ground, and after the start the jewel flies up (to ensure defeat from above) and imagine how the target signature changes ...

                  It doesn’t change at all.

                  Quote: Aries77
                  You yourself say "there was only one massive case of the use of jewels against armored vehicles", and did not wonder why? although the United States fought 3 wars in parallel? Yes, because Jewelin is not a combat complex, but a greenhouse advertised export product. And precisely in order to adjust it at least a little to the possibility of using it in real combat, they begin to modernize it, so that instead of the principle of "fired - forgot" to implement "fired - I observe and correct" ...

                  And there were non-massaged ones. In addition, the Iraqi army did not really resist, did it.
                  The principle "fired - observe and correct" provides for autonomous guidance with correction and observation. Fully implemented in "Spike".

                  Quote: Aries77
                  Have you ever tried looking at a television picture to find a tank against a forest? without a thermal imager - complete dohlyat ...

                  I found smaller targets. And in more difficult conditions.

                  Quote: Aries77
                  It is interesting how much, in your opinion, the temperature of the bunker or bunker differs from the surrounding temperature and when answering, keep in mind that wars are not always waged in clear sunny weather, when the sun heats some objects more than others ...

                  It differs enough to make the bunker contrasting.

                  Quote: Aries77
                  compare the number of exported cornets and jewels and everything will fall into place ...

                  And what if we compare the equivalent short-range portable complexes, Javelin and Metis-M1? Will everything fall into place?
  • studentmati
    studentmati 2 May 2013 23: 57
    +1
    He is a pawn and cannot prepare himself for anything until the king decides. This chip has long been heard. I think that by his stupid actions he shows that there is no replacement for Putin? They say look citizens - I wanted to replace myself with this, but he turned out to be a fool. like that.
  • colonel782
    colonel782 10 May 2013 12: 25
    0
    As a person who once used such products, I would like to know three questions from the authors of the project on placing ATGMs on this chassis.
    1. PU based on BRDM have the ability to overcome water obstacles. How do they intend to solve a similar problem with the "tiger"
    2. BRDM to overcome trenches, ditches has the ability to use additional wheelsets, and "TIGER"?
    3. Is there any normative work for this type of chassis for digging out the calculation of caponier for a car. And if so, what is it?
  • My doctor
    My doctor 11 May 2013 22: 32
    -1
    According to the Deputy Prime Minister, one machine is capable of fighting “immediately with a tank company

    quite logical
    the words of the Commander-in-Chief of the Ground Forces, Colonel General V. Chirkin, regarding the effectiveness of the Tiger machine with Kornet-EM anti-tank missiles. According to him, one unit of such equipment can destroy up to 16 enemy tanks,

    also logical.
    but why then won't I find the "Facepalm" emoticon
  • artgrad
    artgrad 31 May 2013 16: 10
    0
    what kind of insanity to write on military chevrons "Russia" in Latin letters !!!?