On the shipbuilding programs of the Russian Empire in the late 19th century – the emergence of the Japanese threat

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On the shipbuilding programs of the Russian Empire in the late 19th century – the emergence of the Japanese threat

Initially, I intended to present to the esteemed reader an article on why the Russian Empire, on the eve of the Russo-Japanese War, began mass-producing battleships similar to the French Tsarevich, rather than the American Retvizan. However, my exploration of this issue gradually led me to a detailed examination of our pre-war shipbuilding programs. These, in turn, cannot be examined outside the context in which they were created and the sources of their funding.

Therefore, we will have to approach from afar.

On shipbuilding programs of the Russian Empire up to 1898


Without delving into "the deeds of bygone days, the legends of deep antiquity" (otherwise we could reach back to the time of Prince Oleg's expedition to Constantinople), I will begin with the shipbuilding program of 1881, which was adopted during the reign of Emperor Alexander III. On his instructions, a Special Conference, chaired by the infamous Grand Duke Alexei Alexandrovich, who later became Admiral General, formulated the objectives fleet and defined a shipbuilding program that would allow these problems to be solved.

It's especially worth noting here that the navy was not intended to be built "in general" or "just in case," but rather in strict accordance with the foreign policy objectives of the Russian Empire. One can, of course, debate how accurately these objectives were defined. But since they were formulated precisely as such, from the perspective of creating a navy as a military force called upon to "implement policy by other means," the methodology was impeccable.

The political preconditions were as follows:

Chiornoe more. For a long time, the Treaty of Paris of 1856 prohibited the Russian Empire from maintaining a navy there, but in 1871, Russia succeeded in lifting this ban. However, due to a lack of funds, even a decade later, by 1881, it was impossible to build a viable fleet in the Black Sea. By the start of the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-1878, we had only two "popovkas," which were quite capable of serving as coastal defense ironclads but were not suitable for anything more. Consequently, the burden of active operations fell on armed steamships and torpedo boats, which achieved some success. However, naval supremacy remained with the Turks.

This was bad enough, but by 1880 the situation had become even more complicated. Turkey had become completely decrepit, and the British Empire, having wrested Egypt from the Ottomans, was reaching out to it with its greedy hands. "Foggy Albion" could very well continue its expansion, capturing the Bosphorus as well, which would have been a complete foreign policy disaster for the Russian Empire.

It's common knowledge that the Russian Empire didn't aspire to autarky, and hadn't fully begun the industrial revolution by 1881, making its industrial output highly dependent on foreign trade. Grain was the primary source of foreign exchange, and naturally, it had to be exported from the most productive regions along the shortest route to the consumer—that is, from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean. Consequently, whoever controlled the Bosphorus controlled the most important trade flows of the Russian Empire. Therefore, surrendering the Bosphorus to the British was absolutely out of the question.

Baltic Sea. Here, the full-blown task of defending our native shores from British or any other expeditionary forces, should they decide to invade the Baltic Sea, was at stake. The memory of the Anglo-French squadrons that had perpetrated atrocities in the Baltic in 1854-1855 was still fresh.

In the 1860s, this task was planned to be accomplished not in a squadron battle on the high seas, but in close proximity to the coast. Naval forces sufficient for such a defense would automatically become the first among the potentially hostile Baltic powers. Interestingly, until 1878, Germany wasn't considered a potential adversary, but rather an ally, and, moreover, didn't possess a significant navy.

However, in 1878, it suddenly became clear that our friendly Germans weren't exactly friendly. At the Congress of Berlin, Shere Khan and Tabaqui… oh, sorry, Germany, along with Austria, took a rather unfavorable stance toward the Russian Empire, which deprived the latter of the fruits of its victories over Turkey in the war of 1877-1878. Therefore, even under Nicholas I, Germany began to be considered a potential enemy, and by 1880, it had begun strengthening its navy. Consequently, a new predator, rapidly gaining power and potentially dangerous for Russia, appeared in the Baltic.

Far East. It attracted the attention of the Russian Empire, in part, because it was perhaps the only location from which the Russian navy could conduct active military operations against the British Empire. Naturally, this was a cruiser war, and the cruisers necessary for such a war also guaranteed Russian interests vis-à-vis Asian countries that lacked strong navies. But by 1880, two states were gradually gaining naval power in the Far East: Japan and China. The Siberian Naval Flotilla, even reinforced by Baltic cruisers, was no longer sufficient to counter these adversaries. Furthermore, a conflict between Russia and Japan or China could lead to the presence of significant naval forces from European powers in the Far East, even if only for the purpose of carving up the "Chinese pie." Accordingly, the Russian Empire had to ensure a sufficient naval presence to ensure its interests were not ignored.

In general, it can be stated that the situation in all three theaters, two maritime and one “oceanic,” had become considerably more complicated for the Russian Empire by 1881, and this could only be corrected by increasing naval power.

Fleet tasks


Problem number 1. The Black Sea was declared the most important naval theater for the Russian Empire. The Black Sea Fleet had to be capable of conducting an operation to seize the Straits at any time, including the deployment of a 30,000-strong landing force. This required building enough ships to ensure complete dominance over the Turkish Navy. This task had the highest priority; it had to be accomplished first, and only then could fleets be developed in other theaters.

Problem number 2. The Baltic Fleet was supposed to be the first in its sea in terms of its strength, in comparison with the other Baltic powers, not excluding, of course, Germany.

Problem number 3. In the Far East, the Siberian Naval Flotilla was to be maintained at a strength sufficient to support the coastal defense of key locations and settlements from enemy fleets. In the event of an emergency caused by worsening relations with China, Japan, or elsewhere, it was intended to be assisted by armored squadrons from the Baltic or Black Sea Fleets.

Problem number 4. Moreover, a strong cruiser squadron was needed in the Far East to threaten England's maritime trade. Such a squadron was primarily intended to play a political role: by its very existence, it would force the sirs and peers of "Foggy Albion" to calculate the losses to colonial trade that could result from its use.


Armored frigate "Dmitry Donskoy"

A 19th-century analogue of strategic deterrence: cruisers instead of SSBNs.

Available naval forces


But to solve the aforementioned problems, the Russian Empire required a very powerful naval force, which it lacked. The Black Sea Fleet, as mentioned above, was in its infancy. While the Russian Empire had significantly more naval forces in the Baltic than in the Black Sea, the situation still left much to be desired. In the 1860s, Russia built numerous monitor-class ships, so that by 1870, the navy had 23 ships with 162 guns. Considering coastal defense secure, the fleet shifted to cruisers of various classes to engage British shipping lanes in distant seas and oceans. But by 1881, scientific and technological progress, having gained considerable momentum, meant that coastal defense armored forces were rapidly losing their combat value. Insufficient cruisers were built, and those that did were also rapidly becoming obsolete.

The size of the Siberian flotilla did not meet the challenges of the time.

Shipbuilding program 1881-1900 and the tasks of squadron battleships


All of the above gave rise to a grandiose 20-year shipbuilding program from 1881 to 1900, within the framework of which the Fatherland was to build squadrons of the following numbers:


The plan was sound, but the execution was disappointing. There were many reasons for this, but the most important was the simple lack of funds for such large-scale projects. Nevertheless, in terms of creating the navy's main force, the results achieved were impressive. By 1895, eight squadron battleships had been commissioned or were in various stages of construction in the Baltic, including:

- "Battleships-rams" "Nikolai I" and "Alexander II";

- “One mast, one pipe, one cannon – one misunderstanding” “Gangut”;


- A very solid and good for its time "Navarin", which can be considered the ancestor of the classic battleships in the domestic fleet;

- An attempt to build a full-fledged squadron battleship of reduced displacement, the Sisoj Veliky, which was unsuccessful both in concept and execution;

The sister ships "Sevastopol," "Poltava," and "Petropavlovsk," which at the time of their laying were almost the most powerful battleships in the world. Unfortunately, their protracted construction meant that by the time they were commissioned, they were no longer so.

Oddly enough, all of these extremely different ships were created within the framework of the same requirements, according to which the Baltic squadron battleships were to:

1. Defeat the German battle fleet in a general battle;
2. If necessary, make a transition to the Far East to confront China, Japan, or the squadrons of European powers there.

Shipbuilding program 1895-1902


Due to the impossibility of implementation, the 1881-1900 shipbuilding program underwent a series of revisions: the navy's goals and objectives remained unchanged, only the ship complement changed. Its final iteration was the 1895-1902 shipbuilding program, approved in March 1895 at a special meeting of officials of the Naval Ministry, chaired by General-Admiral Alexei Alexandrovich. This program, which essentially remained part of the 1881-1900 program, called for the construction of five squadron battleships, four coastal defense battleships, six first-rank cruisers, one second-rank cruiser, five gunboats, 54 torpedo boats, two minelayers, and four transports in the Baltic.

The first battleships of the 1895-1902 program, as well as the tenth and eleventh Baltic battleships of the 1881-1900 program, were Peresvet and Oslyabya, officially laid down in November 1895 - in fact, work on the slipways, of course, began somewhat earlier.

Where did the Peresvets come from?


Beginning with the Navarin, we can speak of a certain mature concept for the Baltic battleship. The ships designed were not particularly fast (16 knots), well-armed (12-inch and 6-inch guns), and armored (up to 16-inch belt), with a moderate cruising range and seaworthiness—the freeboard was the standard two interdeck spaces for the class.

And then suddenly—a sudden shift toward relatively fast (over 18 knots), high-sided ships with increased range, but with reduced armament, comparable to British second-class battleships. Why?

As noted above, the Russian Empire built very different and dissimilar squadron battleships in the Baltic to address the same missions, and these missions remained unchanged from 1881 onward. This was also true of the Peresvet-class battleships: It's undeniable that, given the technological advances and economic capabilities of the Russian Empire, the Peresvet-class battleship concept was extremely attractive. The preconditions for the Peresvet-class's construction were as follows:

1. Individual weakness of the German fleet's battleships. After the laying of four Brandenburgs, which were quite first-class for their time and were armed with 280-mm artilleryFor some reason, the gloomy Prussian genius switched to 240mm/40 main caliber guns. These were the guns that armed the five Kaiser Friedrich III-class battleships—the second series of German ships of this class, whose keel-laying began in 1895, practically simultaneously with the Peresvets.


"Kaiser Wilhelm II" is one of the five "Friedrichs"

The Friedrich-class ships were quite modest in size, as their designed normal displacement was less than 12,000 tons. As a result, the side armor of these ships, although quite thick, was quite small. Their speed was also not exceptional, at 17,5 knots.

The modest performance characteristics of the German battleships effectively placed them in a position between first- and second-class battleships, making the Peresvet-class ships perfectly suited to their needs. Consequently, the Peresvet-class ships were sufficient to counter the then-new German battleships in the Baltic—fully in line with the missions assigned to the Baltic Fleet.

2. World experience The British, a leading maritime nation, built second-class battleships with 10-inch guns for "colonial" service, while other European powers limited themselves to sending, at most, armored cruisers. Accordingly, one might expect that if a conflict broke out in the Far East, the European powers would be represented, in the worst-case scenario for the Russian Empire, by second-class battleships. For them, the Peresvet-class ships were an equal adversary.

3. Unification of naval and land large-caliber artillery systems, which led to the emergence of the 10-inch/45 gun model 1891. Of course, arming squadron battleships with such artillery systems was a highly questionable decision. However, once it was made, the lighter weight of both the guns themselves and their turret mounts compared to 12-inch guns made it possible to build high-sided warships, which improved their seaworthiness. This latter capability met the requirement to sail to the Far East if necessary and encouraged the use of battleships in cruising operations.

4. The appearance of cemented armor. This innovation made it possible to create thinner, and therefore lighter, armor plates compared to non-cemented armor, while maintaining equal resistance. This, in turn, allowed for either an increased side armor area or a reduction in armor weight in favor of coal reserves, thereby increasing the ship's range. During the design phase of the Peresvet-class battleships, it was possible not only to provide them with very powerful "squadron armored" protection of the British type, but also to increase their total coal reserves to 2058 tons, compared to 1050 tons for the Poltava-class battleships. It was also expected (unfortunately, incorrectly) that the use of a three-shaft propulsion system would increase range at economical speeds, with only one of the three engines (the middle one) operating. All this, again in theory, made it possible to design battleships with an increased range, suitable for use in cruising operations.

5. Cost/effectiveness criterion. The Peresvet-class battleships' performance specifications were intended to enable them to counter German first-rank battleships in battle, but also to engage in cruiser operations. Consequently, the Peresvet-class battleships could be used both as squadron battleships in the Baltic and as armored cruisers when deployed to the Far East. At the same time, the Peresvet-class battleships were still cheaper than first-rank battleships. This versatility was obviously very appealing to the Naval Ministry, whose budgets were quite limited.

In view of the above, it can be argued that the emergence of the Peresvet-class battleships was predetermined and inevitable. However, the construction of these ships was an undeniable mistake on the part of the Naval Ministry.

As early as 1894, the Japanese placed an order in England for the Yashima and Fuji, fully-fledged first-class battleships, which the Peresvets could not compete with on equal terms. Thus, having benefited from the potential use of the Peresvets as armored cruisers, we built battleships that were clearly inferior to the Japanese. At the same time, it was quite obvious that both we and the Japanese were striving to develop the Far East, and an overlap of our interests was more than likely. Furthermore, while comparable to the German battleships, the Peresvets would have been inferior to the ships of England and France and could not have effectively defended our shores from attacks by the expeditionary fleets of these powers.

The reliance on squadron battleships equivalent in strength to second-rank battleships, despite all its potential advantages, was flawed even at the conceptual level, and was compounded by executional errors. The lack of mechanisms to ensure the propellers of idle engines rotated at economical speeds rendered the Peresvet-class's middle engines redundant, incapable of ensuring economical cruising with low coal consumption. The Peresvet-class ships became "coal guzzlers" and were incapable of participating in any cruising operations. Furthermore, their speed proved insufficient for armored cruisers.

But all this became clear much later, and in 1895-1897, in the opinion of our Naval Ministry, the Peresvet-class battleships fully met the requirements. This is confirmed by another meeting, "of a lower rank" than those listed above, held in 1895 under the chairmanship of the former commander of the combined squadrons in the Pacific Ocean, Vice-Admiral S. P. Tyrtov, and with the participation of admirals experienced in ocean voyages. This venerable assembly concluded that the Far East required "18-knot" battleships with a range of 5000 miles at a speed of 10 knots.

An even more important indicator of satisfaction with the Peresvet project is the lack of development of a new type of squadron battleship during that period. Things reached the point that the Black Sea "Prince Potemkin Tavrichesky" was almost laid down in the Peresvet class, even though the "battleship-cruiser" was completely unsuited to the tasks of Black Sea battleships. Fortunately, common sense ultimately prevailed, and the Potemkin was built to the improved "Three Saints" design.

Changes in the tasks of the fleet in 1897-1898


As mentioned above, the 1895-1902 program was approved in March 1895. Even then, the admirals understood that a strengthening of the Mikado's fleet was to be expected: the Sino-Japanese War was drawing to a close, and the victor had been determined. It was to be expected that Japan would use part of the indemnity received from China to strengthen its naval forces, which had played a crucial role in the concluding war.

But this threat was gradually realized: everyone understood that the Japanese would strengthen their fleet, but no one yet understood by how much. Nevertheless, the first change in the navy's missions took place in November 1895.

Previously, it was assumed that the Russian Empire's naval forces in the Far East would be permanently represented only by the Siberian Naval Flotilla and a squadron of cruisers, which posed a potential threat to British shipping. A strong squadron, including battleships, was to be dispatched to the Far East only in the event of a flashpoint there, and once such tensions subsided, its ships were to return. But in November 1895, it was decided that the permanent presence of a powerful squadron, including battleships, was required in the Pacific Ocean.

Nevertheless, until the end of 1897, the Ministry of the Navy remained calm, believing that everything was proceeding as planned and that the 1895-1902 shipbuilding program fully met the navy's needs. This in itself is quite strange, considering that the Japanese plans, according to which, in addition to the Yashima and Fuji already under construction, four more first-class battleships and six armored cruisers, not to mention other "minor items," were to be laid down, were finalized in 1896.

However, I don't know exactly when the Russian Empire learned of the Japanese shipbuilding program. I can't rule out the possibility that the trigger for further changes was the news of the order for a second pair of Japanese battleships—Shikishima and Hatsuse—or the sharp increase in naval funding for the 1897-1898 fiscal year.

Anyway, history The history of the Retvizan and the Tsarevich should be dated back to the end of 1897, namely, to a very detailed review predicting the comparative strength of the Russian and Japanese fleets, completed by Captain 1st Rank A. G. von Nedermiller at the end of 1897. At the time of the review's preparation, this naval officer held the position of head of the naval accounting department of the General Staff, and the document that came from his pen turned out to be quite sensible and competent.

Review by A. G. von Neddermiller


According to this document, as early as 1898, the Japanese fleet would gain qualitative superiority over the Russian fleet in Far Eastern waters. The Russian cruiser squadron would consist of five armored cruisers, including the Rossiya, Rurik, Pamyat Azova, and Vladimir Monomakh, with a combined displacement (here and below, figures are given according to A.G. Nedermiller, although he is not always accurate) of 41,746 tons. The core of the Japanese armored fleet was almost a quarter smaller (32,105 tons), but nevertheless consisted of two first-class battleships, the Yashima and Hatsuse, and one second-class battleship, the Chin Yen. It is quite obvious that, despite their advantage in displacement, the Russian cruisers will not have a single chance in a battle with such an enemy, and the Japanese battleships are supported by 5 more old armored corvettes and frigates with a total displacement of 12,883 tons.

Three Russian armored deck cruisers – the first-rank Admiral Kornilov and the second-rank Zabiyaka and Kreyser, with a total displacement of 8706 tons – were opposed by the four Matsushima, as well as Akitsushima, Izumi, Naniwa, and Takachiho, with a total displacement of 30,580 tons. Five of our sea-going gunboats were opposed by four 4th-class cruisers, with only the smallest of them, Tsukashi, being slightly smaller than our largest gunboat – 1778 tons against 1490 tons. The overall ratio of the ships’ displacement without side armor was 15,454 / 38,707 tons, not in favor of the Russian Empire.

By 1903, the situation hadn't improved much. According to A. G. von Neddermiller's review, the following picture emerged:


To avoid complicating matters beyond necessity, I have omitted data for our gunboats (6 units) and the Japanese 4th-class cruisers (5 units) from the table. After all, their presence, while significant in itself, had little impact on the overall balance of naval power.

It turned out that against six first-class Japanese battleships and the Chin Yen, the Russian Imperial Navy could field only five, of which the two Peresvet-class battleships had the firepower of second-class battleships. True, there was still the reserve of battleships in the Mediterranean, but even transferring them to the Far East wouldn't solve the problem. Formally, of course, we would have eight battleships to the Japanese seven, and the total displacement would have been roughly equal. But the ships with modern artillery would have outnumbered the Japanese fifteen-thousanders six to six, while the Peresvet-class battleships and the Sisoii Velikiy, which was almost half their size, would have confronted the Japanese fifteen-thousanders.

The same was true for armored cruisers. Despite formal equality in numbers and even a slight superiority in displacement, our armored cruisers were categorically inferior to the Japanese in combat. Even the three best ships—the two Rossiyas and the Rurik—were still no match for the Japanese Asamoids, especially given the Rurik's outdated 8-inch guns. The remaining Russian armored cruisers (with the exception of the Nakhimov) were too small, slow, and had outdated artillery.

One can argue about whether our armored deck "goddesses," the Diana-class cruisers, were so bad compared to, say, the Takachiho or Izumi, but four cruisers against thirteen isn't a ratio of forces that can be compensated for by any number of excellent performance characteristics. And the "goddesses," unfortunately, weren't very good.

Interestingly, A. G. von Neddermiller listed only the Peresvet and Oslyabya in the Far East, while three more ships of this type were planned. He explained it this way:

Given the progress of shipbuilding at our St. Petersburg shipyards, and especially the slow pace of manufacturing artillery and turret mounts, as well as the financial resources from the shipbuilding program approved by the highest authority in 1895 for the ships currently under construction, we are unlikely to be able to equip two more battleships of the Peresvet type by 1903.

So, the problem was posed: the existing shipbuilding program of 1895-1902 proved completely inadequate to meet the emerging threats. The leadership of the Ministry of the Navy had to decide how to respond to the rapid growth of Japanese naval power.

To be continued ...

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  1. +2
    24 November 2025 04: 08
    There were only 10 years left until Tsushima!
    1. +1
      24 November 2025 08: 36
      Only first there was Port Arthur.
    2. +1
      1 December 2025 10: 10
      Quote: Traveler 63
      There were only 10 years left until Tsushima!

      Doesn't it smell like tsushima now?
      Turkey's fleet is already larger than the Black Sea fleet, just as Japan's fleet is larger than the Pacific fleet. And if you add in all the NATO ships, it's even bigger. And most importantly, there's no way to catch up—not financially, technically, or humanly. So, don't kick the Russian empire for supposedly doing nothing to rearm. Finances are the deciding factor, then and now.
  2. +5
    24 November 2025 08: 37
    The program was extensive and was carried out:
    From the Most Humble Report on the Naval Department for the years 1897-1900

    By the beginning of the reporting period, 55 military vessels were under construction in various stages of readiness, the laying of which was described in the two previous most humble reports.


    The famous Aurora is exactly 125 years old:

    "Aurora," a twin of "Pallada." From 1897 to early 1900, it was under construction on the slipway of the New Admiralty in St. Petersburg. On May 11, 1900, in the highest presence of Your Imperial Majesty, it was safely launched..:.

    ) The 1st rank cruiser (covered, i.e. with an armored convex deck) "Pallada", 6,731 tons, triple-screw, with a speed of 20 knots; the hull was built in the port of St. Petersburg, the machinery - by the Franco-Russian plant. In August 1899, she was launched, and from that time, as well as throughout 1900, work on the cruiser continued at the port of St. Petersburg.
  3. +5
    24 November 2025 08: 42
    the current shipbuilding program of 1895-1902 turned out to be completely out of step with the emerging threats
    - That's right, and the main culprits were "seven poods of august meat" and Mr. Nida Monsieur Witte...
    1. +5
      24 November 2025 09: 36
      And also literally every possible boss who constantly interfered with already approved projects, with all sorts of improvements, as a result of which deadlines were delayed, budgets were exceeded, and the ships were overloaded.
    2. 0
      24 November 2025 13: 15
      Is that all? Even if we had nothing but "Ushakovs" and "Nakhimovs," would much change?
      The industrial base was clearly lacking, the infrastructure and logistics in the future theater of operations were... or rather, simply not there.
      1. +5
        24 November 2025 13: 24
        Well, where would the infrastructure in the Far East come from, when the General-Admiral was squandering kickbacks and stolen funds from the naval budget in Paris and Nice?
        1. +2
          24 November 2025 13: 29
          This, of course, also played a role. But even if the entire naval budget had been used as efficiently and as intended, it would still have been insufficient for objective reasons.
          Developing infrastructure in those parts was very expensive, and domestic industrial capacity was frankly insufficient. The Russian Empire had no colonies from which to extract "surplus product." If only they had their own "India," then they could compete.
          The Japanese were helped to create a modern army and navy. Who helped Russia, and when? Russia, on the other hand, was squeezed dry by its pale-faced brothers...
          1. 0
            24 November 2025 15: 34
            Quote: Illanatol
            The Japanese were helped to create a modern army and navy.

            I agree. And they didn't just help, they helped in a truly explosive way, with 12 identical ships ordered almost simultaneously. Such a one-time boost can only be compared to the British. No other country has ever attempted such a thing.
            1. +1
              26 November 2025 13: 20
              Quote: Trapper7
              They didn't just help, they helped in a truly explosive way, with 12 identical ships ordered almost simultaneously. Such a one-time boost can only be compared to the British. No other country could have afforded such a boost.

              More precisely, a total of 14 brand-new ships, but they simply bought the Nishin and Kasuga from Italy after Argentina rejected them. The British brokered the deal, and American banks provided the money as a loan (England also lent Japan VERY generously). This was precisely the explosive buildup of the Japanese navy; the Russian Empire couldn't keep up with such a pace with its shipbuilding capacity, and it also missed the deadline due to the incorrectly chosen battleship design. And the opportunity to order ships from foreign shipyards was used carelessly and incompletely. This carelessness is solely due to the role of Witte, who was meddling in every nook and cranny. So, the original plan to order two battleships and two armored cruisers from the Cramp shipyard in the USA was thwarted, and only ONE battleship and one armored-deck cruiser were ordered. From France, they ordered the excessively complex (which is why it took too long to build and barely made it to Arthur just days before the Russian Revolution) and expensive "Tsesarevich"... and the very strange armored cruiser "Bayan," which had almost half the armament of the "Asama," and despite being less powerful than the "Asama," had the same speed. Why was there only one copy of it when another battleship could have been built on the same slipway in the same time, or at least an "Asama"-like ship (the French were building just one of these for the Japanese?). German shipyards were ready to build cruisers for us and could have built four Novik-class cruisers, two Askold-class cruisers, and two Bogatyr-class cruisers (which should have been built as full-fledged armored cruisers with appropriate armament) by the start of the Russian Nuclear War (given the availability at Artur at the start of the Russian Nuclear War). In other words, we could have built eight excellent cruisers by the deadline at German shipyards alone. We only built three, and even then, amidst scandals... again, because of Witte.
              As for the correct choice of battleship design, the Retvizan design should have been chosen, but with GERMAN boilers and a French side armor system and anti-torpedo protection (the presence of side corridors with sealing and the ability to counter-flood). And we would have received the optimal design for that time - the least expensive and quick to build, convenient for the rapid construction of a large series.
              But Witte insisted, whispered, and the Admiral General agreed and made the decision... Russia built a "prototype fleet," a weak, heterogeneous fleet incapable of maintaining high squadron speed, with terrible shells and poorly trained gunners incapable of conducting squadron combat at medium and long ranges. A naval base was not built on the Liaodong Peninsula, not even docks in Artur for servicing and repairing ships. Few ground troops, supplies, or equipment were brought in by sea before the Russian Navy. Witte didn't provide funds for all this, but he spared no expense on the construction of a commercial port with all the infrastructure and the city of Dalny itself. He didn't provide funds for its fortification, so the Japanese took it without a fight and made it their main base on the continent, with convenient logistics for supplying both the Japanese troops in Manchuria and the army storming Arthur. If there had been a sane monarch on the throne with at least average intellectual abilities, he wouldn't have been surrounded by so many embezzlers, spies, and incompetents. But an idiot on the throne... that's Fate.
              1. -1
                30 November 2025 00: 19
                In France, they ordered an excessively complex (which is why it took too long to build and barely made it to Arthur just days before the Russian Revolution) and expensive "Tsarevich"...

                A tragic mistake by the leadership of the Russian Empire!
                Although why the "Tsarevich" was chosen, and also chosen as the prototype for the domestic EBR series, is no longer a secret – the so-called "commissions" from the French (or, more simply, kickbacks). For this, a special "thank you" must go to the head of the Russian Imperial Fleet, Grand Duke A.A.
                1. 0
                  30 November 2025 01: 30
                  Well, to be fair, the "Tsarevich" really did have the best armor system of the time (a continuous armor belt that covered the ends as well) and the presence of anti-torpedo protection (side corridors that prevented the blast wave and shrapnel from spreading further, and the list could be leveled by counter-flooding. And these were the arguments in favor of such a ... afloat starship (its shapes were too "space-like", with sloping rounded sides, an unjustified abundance of curved shapes, auxiliary artillery in 6 (SIX!) twin-gun turrets. This greatly complicated and increased the cost of the ship's design, delayed construction. And this was with our time crunch. If they had taken the continuous armor system and anti-mine protection from the "Tsarevich", but built it according to the "Retvizan" design (amazing a technologically advanced ship, optimized for the rapid construction of a large series, in the USA, based on his design, a large series was then built), and in addition, they insisted on the installation of GERMAN boilers (extremely reliable, efficient and even more compact), then we would have received an ideal / optimal battleship for the RYaV, built the entire series on time, could have received up to 4 such battleships from Cramp and built a series of 5-6 battleships ourselves. And the "Tsareviches" could have been ordered in France (2 units, the second instead of "Bayan" for the same period). As a result, by the end of the year in Arthur we would have had at least 8 battleships of new construction (4 of our construction + 2 built by the Cramp shipyard in the USA + 2 "Tsareviches" of French construction), as well as 3 "Poltavets" and 2-3 "Peresvetets" = 11 full-fledged A battleship + 2-3 Peresvet-class armored cruisers. And even with this alone, it would have been possible to fight and win, having a qualitative advantage in armored forces. And if the Sisoya and Navarin had not been sent to Kronstadt, but left in Artur and re-armed with new guns (with smokeless powder propellant charges) right there on the spot, then by the end of the year we would have had 13 full-fledged battleships + 2-3 Peresvets in Artur (if the Oslyabya hadn't ripped its bottom on the rock in Gibraltar, all the Peresvets would have been in Artur by the deadline).
                  But that's not all. By that time, in Kronstadt (according to the construction schedule of even the lead ship, the Retvizan, of two years and eight months), two more battleships of our own construction and two battleships from the Kramp shipyard would already have received armament and crews—four new battleships in total.
                  But we also needed a high-speed wing. Therefore, high-speed armored cruisers with 20,000-horsepower engines had to be built in Germany – instead of the armored-deck Bogatyr, but with the same engines. Moreover, it would have been possible to reach an agreement with the Kaiser, instead of two armored cruisers for the German fleet, to lay down two armored cruisers for our Pacific Fleet, and to lay down the German cruisers a year and a half later. Germany had nothing pressing, and as a salaverda, we could simply agree to his proposal for a joint naval policy in the Pacific Ocean, which he so desired from "Brother Nicholas." That way, we could have received three more armored cruisers with a speed of 21 knots, 10-inch main guns, and excellent armor by the deadline.
                  Moreover, Kramp could and wanted to build us fast armored cruisers "better than Asama." By that time, he had just acquired another shipyard and his slipways had increased. If we had also insisted on German-style boilers (not the ones on the Varyag), the cruisers would have turned out quite well and no worse than German-built ones. So, for the second squadron (or already the third), we would have had four new battleships and up to six powerful and fast armored cruisers. The Pacific Fleet already had more than enough battleships, but the cruisers should have been sent as a "fast wing" to counter Kamimura's armored cruisers.
                  And the whole World History would have taken a completely different course.

                  Well, yes, the Grand Duke loved kickbacks. As well as ballerinas and idle amusements...
                  1. +2
                    30 November 2025 22: 25
                    Quote: bayard
                    The Tsarevich truly had the best armor system of its time (a continuous armor belt that covered the ends) and anti-torpedo protection

                    And not only that. The Kasuga's commander enthusiastically described the watertight bulkheads he'd seen on the Orel. They were truly watertight, not like those on the Kasuga. That is, without doors, ventilation ducts, etc.
                    The Tsarevich represents another new approach to battleship design. Essentially, it packs much more powerful armament and armor into a smaller displacement than the Peresvet.
                    1. 0
                      30 November 2025 23: 57
                      Yes, it's clear that the "Tsarevich" inspired us. But we couldn't build such ships fast enough back then. And we had to build them VERY fast—we were a couple of years behind the Japanese in terms of laying down ships.
                      Therefore, the best and easiest to implement features on the Retvizan should have been taken. These include a continuous armor belt and torpedo protection corridors on the sides, as this is what ensures the ship's survivability. But the architecture itself, the simplicity, the casemate battery of the VK, even the engines (17,000 hp are not easy to find), and German boilers, as the best at the time. So, we would have ended up with technologically advanced ships optimized for rapid construction in large series. They would have been cheaper, and their protection would have been no worse or even better than the Japanese ones, and a speed of 19 knots with efficient propellers. And 19 knots for an armored squadron is precisely the speed advantage needed to impose the pattern and nature of the battle on the enemy. But implementing rational decisions was practically impossible back then—Russia was literally led like a bull to the slaughter, forced to make erroneous, incorrect, and disastrous decisions time and again. At every stage of preparation for war.
                      And even two copies of the "Tsesarevich" could and should have been ordered (the second one instead of the "Bayan") and all these advantages of it should be thoroughly studied in practice. And implement them on the next series of battleships, which could have been larger battleships with engines from the "Bogatyr" (20,000 hp, for which we had a patent and all the documentation), VI 15,000+ tons ... with two three-gun turrets, 12-14 x 6 "VK, and with a speed of 20 knots. We already had everything necessary for such battleships, and in the period 1904 - 1906 we could have received another series of more powerful and high-quality battleships in the amount of 6-8 pieces. In two bookmarks. Everything necessary for this was there. Just correctly distribute orders for the same battleships:
                      - 2 pcs. in France,
                      - 4 units from Kramp in the USA (he was ready to build and delivered the entire batch to us by the end of 1903),
                      - 4 pcs. at home.
                      Total: 2 "Tsareviches" and 8 "improved Retvizans".
                      Of these, we would have had at least 8 new battleships in Artur by the end of 1903 and another 2 “improved Retvizans” in Kronstadt in service and being mastered by crews.
                      The next reinforced series would have been completed and entered service within the next two years and would have remained in the Baltic as a reserve.
                      This is if you plan and prepare for war correctly.
                    2. +1
                      1 December 2025 07: 10
                      Good morning.
                      In fact, the Peresvet's smaller displacement allowed for much more powerful armament and armor.

                      Dear Alexey, if we proceed from the French design methodology and standards, then the normal displacement of the battleship "Tsarevich" should have been approximately 13300-13400 tons.
                      This is more than the design displacement of the battleship Peresvet.
                      1. +2
                        1 December 2025 09: 37
                        Good morning!
                        This is more than the design displacement of the battleship Peresvet.

                        Dear Igor, a peculiarity of the Peresvet's construction was that the projected displacement of 12,674 tons was based on the original design with eight 6-inch guns in the battery. After that, the design was repeatedly amended to increase its weight, but for some reason, the projected displacement was never recalculated. The Peresvet's actual displacement, however, turned out to be more than 1000 tons greater than the projected displacement. That's what I'm using as my guide.
                      2. +1
                        1 December 2025 10: 18
                        Quote: rytik32
                        After that, the design was repeatedly amended to make it heavier, but for some reason the design displacement was never recalculated. The Peresvet's actual displacement turned out to be more than 1000 tons greater than the design displacement. That's what I'm using as my reference.

                        We can estimate it using the French method, but we need precise data on the weight of artillery, ammunition, torpedo tubes, and torpedoes. The rest of the data seems to be available.
                      3. +5
                        1 December 2025 19: 29
                        Data on Peresvet taken from MTK 129 journal dated October 7, 1898, in long tons (1016 kg)

                        Hull with decking, furniture and business items 5030
                        Reservation 2753
                        Mechanisms 1931
                        Coal 1083
                        Artillery 1050
                        Mine armament 231
                        Supply 698
                      4. +1
                        1 December 2025 19: 46
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Data on Peresvet taken from MTK 129 journal dated October 7, 1898, in long tons (1016 kg)

                        Thank you, the estimated displacement is 12800 tons, while the armor protection ratio of 2753 tons to the estimated displacement falls short of the accepted standard of 350 kg. This isn't a significant figure, but the overload played a nasty trick on these ships. I'll calculate other ratios later. Thanks again.
                      5. +1
                        1 December 2025 20: 01
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Data on Peresvet taken from MTK 129 journal dated October 7, 1898, in long tons (1016 kg)

                        Let me add, to avoid misunderstandings, that 350 kg of armor doesn't reach the level of armored cruisers. But again, these are the accepted standards in France; I don't know what ratios were used here. Variations may vary.
                  2. +1
                    1 December 2025 11: 38
                    Well, to be fair, the Tsarevich did have the best armor system of the time (a continuous armor belt that covered the ends) and the presence of anti-torpedo protection.

                    The Tsarevich's torpedo protection wasn't quite so smooth, however. The ship's vaunted anti-torpedo bulkhead failed to save it after the night attack on January 27; the list reached a critical point and the battleship nearly capsized. The situation was saved by the ship's bilge engineer, who promptly flooded the compartments on the opposite side.
                    To be fair, the Retvizan also nearly sank and had to be beached, where it ran aground. But it didn't have the mine-proof bulkhead the Tsarevich had, which the French boasted so much about.
                    1. +2
                      1 December 2025 12: 09
                      Quote: Murmillo
                      The vaunted anti-mine bulkhead did not save the ship after the night attack on January 27; the list reached a critical point and the battleship almost capsized.

                      The anti-torpedo protection was that very same side corridor, beyond which the water did not penetrate, and its longitudinal bulkhead held. The ship indeed nearly capsized, but this was facilitated not only by the large volume of seawater taken into that very same side corridor, but also by the battleship's rounded, inward-leaning side, which it simply could not support due to its list. And there was a risk that the list would cause water to enter the anti-torpedo artillery ports (the Borodinites, by the way, also capsized their 75mm artillery because of these low-lying ports). But it was precisely the ability to counter-flood the opposite side corridor that allowed the Tsarevich to level out her list.
                      Quote: Murmillo
                      "Retvizan" also almost sank,

                      The Retvizan had it worse – lacking similar mine protection, water flooded the entire forward compartment through a hole. And if it hadn't been grounded bow-first, it would have, at best, floated stern-up. This comparison has already been discussed on the Military Forums. And that's precisely why the Tsarevich's side mine protection corridors and continuous armor belt, including the ends, were a clear advantage and could be easily implemented on the Retvizan. But in addition to all the machinations of the Spy and the corruption schemes of "Uncle Tsar," there was also a severe time crunch – the ships had to be laid down as quickly as possible, because, I repeat, we were two years behind the Japanese in laying down our new ships for the Pacific Fleet.
                      1. +1
                        1 December 2025 21: 20
                        Quote: bayard
                        (By the way, the Borodinites also overturned their 75mm artillery because of these low-lying ports.)

                        And how many of Borodino's men overturned? I think only Alexander III died in the explosion of the cellars at Borodino.
                      2. +3
                        2 December 2025 00: 10
                        Quote: Panin (Michman)
                        In my opinion, only Alexander 3.

                        The "Alexander-3" nearly capsized during testing while turning, scooped up water, and nearly capsized. Even then, during the completion of the ship, the sailors demanded and insisted that the lower ports of the anti-mine artillery be sealed. Besides the threat of scooping up water while turning or listing from a hole, they couldn't fire properly from such a low position—they couldn't even see approaching low-profile destroyers from there.
                        By the way, the Japanese sealed these ports tightly on the captured Orel.
                      3. +1
                        2 December 2025 05: 57
                        Quote: bayard
                        Quote: Panin (Michman)
                        In my opinion, only Alexander 3.

                        The "Alexander-3" nearly capsized during testing while turning, scooped up water, and nearly capsized. Even then, during the completion of the ship, the sailors demanded and insisted that the lower ports of the anti-mine artillery be sealed. Besides the threat of scooping up water while turning or listing from a hole, they couldn't fire properly from such a low position—they couldn't even see approaching low-profile destroyers from there.
                        By the way, the Japanese sealed these ports tightly on the captured Orel.

                        I know he almost got into trouble during testing. But the other ships avoided this, so it's not really a widespread problem.
                      4. 0
                        2 December 2025 11: 08
                        And what about the fact that during the cruise, the anti-mine battery was constantly flooded with water from waves and spray, and the water was constantly ankle-deep? The danger of scooping up water through these ports was known from those very trials; every wave was a reminder. And the "Borodinets" had a much more acute port problem than the original (Tsarevich) due to the increased VI and increased draft. And the inward-sloping sides didn't provide adequate support when listing, including during turning, plus a high metacentricity. Such a capsize threatened all "Borodinets," but the Japanese didn't use armor-piercing shells at Tsushima, and high-explosive shells couldn't penetrate the main or even the upper armor belt. They were simply "lucky" to burn from high-explosive shells rather than capsize due to holes and listing. The Japanese didn't have good armor-piercing shells back then. But they did have very powerful high-explosive shells.
                        But what truly gave our (Russian) shipbuilding school the construction of a large series of such complex and sophisticated warships (regardless of what they piled on top of the main deck) was EXPERIENCE and familiarity with the most advanced survivability solutions, torpedo protection, continuous armor systems, the importance of armored ends, ventilation and drainage systems, and many other advanced technologies. And then there was the construction of ships with such elaborate curved architecture, with its abundance of curved forms, and the organization of such construction, the rapid construction of complex ships, the debugging, coordination, and rhythm of deliveries across all supply chains, reaching the pace of the world's best shipyards with the last battleships in the series. This was definitely beneficial, and this experience was in demand in the future. It significantly improved our shipbuilding and provided good experience for design schools... although our design school, which was young in this field, was still somewhat shaky in terms of design for a long time. After the Russian Navy, it also produced a series of low-deck dreadnoughts with four triple-gun turrets arranged in a line... that is, they had already learned how to design hulls, but there were still problems with the thoughtfulness of the architecture and the optimization of the artillery placement for a long time. In essence, these were the first steps into the adult life of military shipbuilding, and these first steps were rather... clumsy. With tossing and turning, bumps and a bloody face. And these tossing and turning, among other things. The machinations of foreign agents (Witte and Co.), Anglophiles (the Admiral General, a lover of ballerinas and kickbacks), Francophiles, and the complete incapacity of the Stupid Tsar on the throne, who... could do nothing, was incapable of anything, and did not understand anything, contributed to this.
                        But there was no one to listen to the sound opinions and advice of conscientious specialists. At the top, they lived their own happy, carefree life – utterly carefree. Just like all those eight years before the Second World War. They wanted to build a state "like the one under Nicholas II." And they did. The same. If they persist, the result, the ending, will be the same. How they strayed from the Golden Middle Path indicated by Sharapov, from the path of breakthrough development... Only under Stalin did the country return to this (correct) path and stun the entire world with the pace and quality of development, the quality of public administration, strategic planning, and a breakthrough into the future along the path of the Golden Ratio.
                        If Nikolka hadn't been such a lazy bum and a klutz, if he had listened to his father, if he had studied political economy (based on Karl Marx's "Capital", as his father TOLD him to) and the people who prepared the reforms and wrote the programs during his father's reign, the best and smartest people of their time, the swindler Witte would never have stayed at court, wouldn't have thwarted all the projects, programs and reforms approved by Alexander III, wouldn't have wasted so much of his father's and his associates' work and efforts, wouldn't have gotten himself into all those ridiculous and unsuccessful wars and Witte's adventures, wouldn't have lost Manchuria and Kwantung, without which our Far Eastern possessions couldn't have developed, wouldn't have gotten carried away by the young educated generation into revolutionary unrest due to injustice and the impossibility of applying their young energies to something bright and creative. Simply everything that Stalin did since 1930 (Industrialization, Electrification, Collectivization, Mechanization of agriculture, Financial Reform, Education System Reform, Healthcare System Reform, Military Reform, Church (!!) Reform with the separation of Church and State, Zemstvo Reform with the implementation of the Cathedral Rule of gradual election of people's representatives from the bottom up (the best form of popular representation in an advisory body of power, which modern democracy is not even fit to hold a candle to), programs for the development of new territories - the Far East, Central Asia, programs for the construction of railways, canals, comprehensive development of the Economy, a focus on Scientific and Technological Progress, the development of Science and a Scientific Approach to solving all complex problems, the development of COMMUNITIES, concern for health, wealth and prosperity. People.
                        Doesn't this remind you of anything?
                        The especially highlighted word "COMMUNITY"?
                        "Commune" in Vulgar Latin (French) means "Commune" (that's why the economy in our cities and villages is called communal). So, in essence, Sharapov and the Slavophiles de facto proposed to Alexander III a program for building... Communism in the Russian Empire. And the most amazing thing is that he APPROVED it. He gave them a go! For this, he was killed by agents of global banking capital. And the entire Economic Program and most of the Social Program of Sharapov and the Slavophiles were implemented under the Bolsheviks – by Stalin, Dzerzhinsky (while he was alive), and the Slavophiles, who created the Brain of the Soviet Economy – the famous Stalinist Gosplan. And of course, the role of the General Staff in bringing the Bolsheviks to power was enormous.
                        When the best minds and hearts join forces... and the Impossible becomes Possible.
                      5. +1
                        2 December 2025 22: 33
                        Quote: Panin (Michman)
                        Borodino perished from the explosion of cellars

                        No, Borodino also capsized.
                      6. 0
                        2 December 2025 23: 02
                        No, the Borodino also capsized.

                        Yes, but before that, the powder magazine of the right aft 6" turret exploded, hit by a 12" shell, apparently from the Fuji (which, a couple of times before, should have blown itself up from a similar shell hitting its magazine, but the Japanese were much luckier. Then again, the Japanese were very lucky in that war).
                      7. +1
                        3 December 2025 10: 06
                        Quote: Murmillo
                        Before this, the powder magazine of the right aft 6" turret exploded

                        There was a large fire near the mainmast on the Borodino, but it only lasted 20-25 minutes, until the ship sank. Gunpowder doesn't burn that long.
                        A 12" shell from the Fuji hit the Borodino just before its destruction, but near the foremast.
                      8. 0
                        4 December 2025 06: 00
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Quote: Murmillo
                        Before this, the powder magazine of the right aft 6" turret exploded

                        There was a large fire near the mainmast on the Borodino, but it only lasted 20-25 minutes, until the ship sank. Gunpowder doesn't burn that long.
                        A 12" shell from the Fuji hit the Borodino just before its destruction, but near the foremast.

                        Novikov, Semenov, and the British wrote that there was a flash in the 6-inch turret upon impact. And the ship was unlikely to have simply capsized immediately after the explosion. The same is true for Alexander, by the way, since there were no survivors.
                      9. 0
                        4 December 2025 09: 08
                        Quote: Panin (Michman)
                        Novikov, Semenov

                        These people could not have observed this flash themselves.
                        You will read, for example, what Sakellari saw, who was in the wheelhouse of the Orel, just a few hundred meters behind the Borodino.

                        Quote: Panin (Michman)
                        And it’s unlikely that the ship could have simply capsized immediately after the explosion.

                        What explosion? Who saw it?
                  3. +1
                    2 December 2025 14: 14
                    but they would have built it according to the Retvizan design (an amazingly technologically advanced ship, optimized for rapid construction of a large series; a large series was later built in the USA based on its design)

                    Type "Maine" Yes
                    1. +2
                      2 December 2025 14: 24
                      Quote: Murmillo
                      Type "Maine"

                      The Retvizan was based on the EBR "Maine" design, but it was actually built on the Retvizin design (for patriotic reasons, it could have been called the "Maine type"). The design methodology and style (strict, laconic, and highly technological for rapid, large-scale construction) have since been called "Retvizan style" in the US. This is discussed in the book "The History of the Cramp Shipyard."
                      1. 0
                        2 December 2025 15: 37
                        The Retvizan was based on the EBR "Maine" project.

                        Really? I thought the Americans used the Retvizan as a prototype for the Maine-series ballistic missile submarines. And the Retvizan itself was based on the Potemkin and Peresvet designs.
                      2. 0
                        2 December 2025 17: 52
                        Kramp came to Russia with the "Maine" project, offering precisely this (the "Maine" itself was under construction at the time at Kramp's shipyard). Our Naval Ministry didn't like the project - "We don't need another Poltava." They began coordinating the project and suggested taking a closer look at the Potemkin project, which was then underway. They began preparing the project, but the work was progressing very slowly due to their lack of experience in the Russian Empire. Kramp was offered to participate in order to speed things up, and he enthusiastically got involved in the work. He was counting on a large order - at least 4 armored ships (2 battleships and 2 armored cruisers), in addition, he was asked to assist in the construction of one or two large shipyards in Artur and/or Dalniy. Kramp said that he had an old friend whose company specializes in the construction of advanced shipyards and promised to involve him, and also proposed his son (already an experienced shipbuilding engineer and work manager at his father's shipyard) as the director of this shipyard to launch production. He also counted on an order of about 50 destroyers. , which he was going to deliver to Arthur in disassembled form and assemble there on site. The plans were grandiose, everyone was in high spirits and looking forward to the future. But ... then Witte intervened and brought in a Frenchman, under the protection of the Rothschilds, with the "Tsarevich" project ... and then IT STARTED. Witte wanted to give the entire order (two battleships and two cruisers) to the French, the General-Admiral also opinions in the Naval Ministry were divided - "They liked the Tsarevich, but it was complex, and it even had two more turrets than the "Poltavas" (which they so wanted to abandon), while the armor system and anti-torpedo protection of the "Tsarevich" were excellent. And when they were about to hand over the order to the French, and even announced it, Cramp kicked up a fuss – he'd wasted a ton of time hoping for a good order, his son already had a line of customers lined up, and he'd already telegrammed his son to start stockpiling metal for the Retvizan... So, the order was split in half, with the armored deck Varyag, which he'd also ordered, counted toward the cruiser (which was supposed to be an armored cruiser)... and they twisted his arm in the price. But Cramp never held a grudge against the Russians for this, only against Witte.
                        Quote: Murmillo
                        And for the Retvizan itself, the drawings of the Potemkin and Peresvet were taken.

                        The Potemkin was designed to closely resemble the Peresvet, but with an emphasis on armament and armor. The Retvizan, meanwhile, was based on Kramp's Maine, with a casemate battery of 12 x 6" guns like the Potemkin (the Potemkin had 16 SK guns).
                        But the fact that Cramp proposed the Retvizan project to the US Navy Department as a project suitable for the rapid construction of a large series is absolutely true and is reflected in the book "The History of the Cramp Shipyard".
                        The shipyard closely followed the fate of the Retvizan and rooted for our squadron during the Russian Yamal-Nenets Autonomous Region. After the war, they helped the Japanese replace the propellers with more efficient ones, and with the new propellers, the ship easily achieved its designed speed of 19 knots.
                      3. +3
                        2 December 2025 18: 53
                        Quote: bayard
                        And the Retvizan was already designed on the basis of Kramp's Man

                        And yet - no. Based on "Iowa"
                      4. 0
                        2 December 2025 20: 08
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And yet - no. Based on "Iowa"

                        Well, it seems that Crump brought the "Maine" design with him, although he could have had the second design as well – a choice. I looked purely at the outside, without any internal details. My search engine is really bad, so it's difficult to even just look at it. But he definitely proposed the "Maine" and wasn't satisfied with the architecture of the auxiliary artillery. They wanted a casemate battery.
                        Does the Iowa have a casemate battery? I can't even picture it visually.
                      5. +2
                        2 December 2025 20: 24
                        Quote: bayard
                        Well, it seems that Crump brought the Maine project with him.

                        "Iowa":)))) He couldn't have had any "Maine" project - there was no such project then
                      6. +1
                        2 December 2025 22: 00
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        "Iowa":)))) He couldn't have had any "Maine" project - there was no such project then

                        I remember the "Maine" being mentioned in the "Retvizan" section of "The History of the Crump Shipyard," so I might have gotten it mixed up. Visually, I remember that battleship with turrets like the "Poltava" battleships. So, does that mean the "Maine" was a derivative of the "Retvizan," which he (Crump) proposed to the US Navy Department? A competition for a design for a large series of similar battleships was announced at the time.
                        But then the bankers drove Kramp bankrupt and took over the entire shipyard for a trivial loan that was essentially unpaid on time, without allowing him to refinance. This was done deliberately, because the bankers knew about the huge shipbuilding program and needed the shipyards to secure orders. And they got Kramp's shipyard for a mere pittance of 2-3 million dollars, while he had just bought a neighboring shipyard the day before and practically doubled the number of slipways. He was also planning to buy steel mills for himself, so that he would have a nearly complete cycle and not have to outsource armor. And look how it turned out. With our order (4 armored ships and up to 50 destroyers in sets), he expected to pay off the entire debt from profits with an inconvenient loan. But he was scammed (by buying a neighboring shipyard instead of repaying the loan) and... he no longer owned his shipyard. For a while, he was used as a "wedding general" for representative purposes. Capitalism is like that. Predatory.
                        We could have saved our grandfather with a full order, he would have served us even more.
                      7. 0
                        2 December 2025 21: 27
                        Does the Iowa have a casemate battery?

                        The Iowa has a turret-type battery.

                        Kramp, with the Maine project, came to Russia proposing precisely this (the Maine itself was under construction at Kramp's shipyard at the time). Our Naval Ministry didn't like the project: "We don't need another Poltava."

                        This was exactly "Iowa")
                      8. 0
                        2 December 2025 21: 41
                        Quote: Murmillo
                        This was exactly "Iowa")

                        Well, that means I got confused because it was so long ago, and it’s hard to look at it because the internet is slow.
                      9. +1
                        3 December 2025 15: 19
                        Quote: bayard
                        But he definitely proposed the Maine, and the architecture of the auxiliary artillery wasn't satisfactory. They wanted a casemate battery.

                        And what about "Maine"?)))
                        Quote: bayard
                        Does the Iowa have a casemate battery?

                        Tower.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Otherwise, I can’t even imagine it visually.

                        Approximately like the Poltava with 8" SK turrets
                        Colleague, forgive me for offering unsolicited advice, but you need to be more careful when choosing your sources.
                      10. 0
                        3 December 2025 16: 53
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Quote: bayard
                        Does the Iowa have a casemate battery?
                        Tower.

                        Yes, we've sorted it out already. I remember visually which project Kramp proposed, but I got the names mixed up, because in the section on the Retvizan from "The History of the Kramp Shipyard" I read a long time ago, both names were mentioned. But years have passed.
                        The design proposed by Kramp wasn't satisfactory due to the turreted placement of the VC; they wanted a casemate-style design. So, they ordered the Retvizan as is. And it was the right decision. The only thing that needed to be adjusted was the continuous armor belt and the side mine-defense corridors like those on the Tsesar. These changes would have been easy (and quick) to incorporate into the Retvizan design, and then the battleships would have been delivered on time.
                        The other advantages and innovations of the Tsarevich should have been studied and evaluated during its operation and incorporated into the next series/generation of ships. That would have been the right thing to do. Because when I examine the historical process, I don't record what happened, but rather choose the most rational solution in a given situation and under given conditions. I'm not at all interested in the Tsarevich being a more advanced or innovative ship; I'm interested in choosing a design based on the basic one that would allow for the rapid construction of a large series, with minimal/optimal costs, and the completion of the entire series at Arthur in 1903, at least by the end of that year. And not out of hindsight, but simply knowing the delivery date of the last ships ordered from England to the Japanese fleet, plus approximately six months for the crew to master them and commission their own armored detachment. That's statistics. She's the Queen of Sciences, by the way. And if battleships had been built in the Baltic according to the "Improved Retvizan" project, the ships would have definitely reached Arthur before the start of the Russian Navy.
                        To this day, the Russian Nuclear War remains a “Training War”, the tasks of which are used to train the intellect to solve current and future problems.
                        And for some it’s just “interesting reading” for relaxation.
                      11. 0
                        2 December 2025 20: 59
                        And yet - no. Based on "Iowa"

                        That's what I thought too))
                        Well, first there was the Retvizan project, and then the Maine...
                2. 0
                  30 November 2025 12: 56
                  Check out the performance characteristics of the MKU Peresvet and Pobeda and compare them with the Borodino, and ask about the reason for the dramatic change...
                3. +2
                  1 December 2025 10: 16
                  Quote: Murmillo
                  In France, they ordered an excessively complex (which is why it took too long to build and barely made it to Arthur just days before the Russian Revolution) and expensive "Tsarevich"...

                  A tragic mistake by the leadership of the Russian Empire!
                  Although why the "Tsarevich" was chosen, and also chosen as the prototype for the domestic EBR series, is no longer a secret – the so-called "commissions" from the French (or, more simply, kickbacks). For this, a special "thank you" must go to the head of the Russian Imperial Fleet, Grand Duke A.A.

                  How did kickbacks to the French influence the construction of the Borodino ships? The Tsarevich's plans were transferred as part of the contract, and many changes were made to them. Moreover, the Tsarevich himself survived all the battles. The sinking of the Borodino ships is explained not by their flawed design, but by other factors.
                  1. 0
                    1 December 2025 14: 24
                    How did kickbacks to the French influence the construction of Borodino?

                    What do you mean, which one? The most direct one.
                    The choice of the Tsarevich, rather than the Retvizan, as the prototype for the domestic EBR series was one of the reasons that led to Tsushima.
                    The biggest drawback of the French design is the cost and SPEED of construction! Look how long it took Cramp to build his ship, and how long it took the French to build theirs.
                    The technologically highly complex project, due to the complex production of 30 medium-caliber turrets and the unique shape of the sides, delayed construction of the entire Russian Borodinets series. Furthermore, the French significantly delayed the delivery of design documentation.
                    Had we chosen Kramp's design (or at least the Potemkin), the Retvizan and five of its sister ships, or even six (!), would have been stationed in Port Arthur by the start of the Russian Nuclear War. Because the Retvizan was 25% cheaper than the Tsarevich. Would Japan have gone to war under such a scenario? That's a big question... But...in making such a fateful choice, the RIF leadership (and, first and foremost, Grand Duke A.A.) wasn't guided by the interests and security of their country, but by Paris and French women. As a result, a design was chosen that simply didn't make it in time for the war.
                    1. +1
                      1 December 2025 15: 59
                      I don't want to prejudge, but you are very categorical... And Retvizan has never cost a quarter less than Tsarevich
                      1. 0
                        1 December 2025 16: 47
                        but you are very categorical... And Retvizan never cost a quarter less than Tsarevich

                        My comment may seem categorical, but if we take it as a whole, the choice of the Lagan project as a prototype for the construction of a domestic EBR series backfired on our country very quickly.
                        And how come the "Retvizan" wasn't cheaper than the "Tsarevich"? Perhaps you have more precise information? I'd be glad if you shared it.
                      2. +2
                        1 December 2025 18: 42
                        Quote: Murmillo
                        And how come the Retvizan wasn't cheaper than the Tsarevich?

                        When comparing prices directly, one thing is often overlooked. The main battery turrets for the Retvizan were manufactured in Russia, but the French were allowed to install all their own turrets, which affected the final cost of the Tsarevich. In other words, the Retvizan is, of course, somewhat cheaper, but certainly not by a quarter.
                      3. +3
                        1 December 2025 18: 53
                        Quote: Murmillo
                        My comment may seem categorical, but if we take it as a whole, the choice of the Lagan project as a prototype for the construction of a domestic EBR series backfired on our country very quickly.

                        And again, it seems so, but not quite.
                        Quote: Murmillo
                        And how come the Retvizan wasn't cheaper than the Tsarevich?

                        Cheaper, but by no means a quarter. For example, if you look at the "Ship List of 1904," the cost of the Tsarevich, armed but without provisions, is 12,600,660 rubles, while the Retvizan, also armed but without provisions, is 11,516,679 rubles.
                        You see, their costs are often compared head-on, that is, based on the contract price. This is often overlooked, as the Tsarevich's gun turrets were French and included in the contract price, while Kramp's were Russian, so naturally, we didn't pay Kramp anything for them.
                        And all sorts of itacdalia
                    2. +3
                      1 December 2025 18: 37
                      Quote: Murmillo
                      Look how long it took Cramp to build his ship, and how long it took the French to build theirs.

                      The Baltic Shipyard built the Peresvet with a casemate SK for 6 years. The Alexandra III with a turret 3,5
                      The Oslyabya was built in the New Admiralty for almost eight years. The Borodino was built there for just over four years.
                      It is obvious that construction time has very little to do with the complexity of the project and the location of the medium-sized building.
                      The fact that Crump built faster than Forge and Chantiers is explained by the fact that the Americans, in principle, built faster than the French.
                      1. -2
                        2 December 2025 10: 18
                        A powerful argument. What prevented the French from building faster?
                      2. -1
                        9 December 2025 19: 26
                        You were a little disingenuous...
                        After Peresvet came Pobeda, which was built quite quickly...
                        The speed of construction depends on timely supplies, qualifications and (cough-cough) the level of payment.
                        When Peresvet and Oslyabya started, they weren't in any hurry, so as not to, God forbid, overpay. Surely, their subcontractors were systematically late – but what am I even telling you?
                        It's better to reread this from Dovlatov)
                        They built slowly, which meant that everyone was happy with it.
                      3. 0
                        11 December 2025 16: 56
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        After Peresvet came Pobeda, which was built quite quickly...

                        And still a year older than "Alexander III".
                        Is Dovlatov to blame for this too?
        2. +2
          24 November 2025 14: 17
          Is there any evidence that Alexey Alexandrovich stole anything on a large scale or took bribes?
          1. +4
            24 November 2025 14: 28
            In 1903, an audit revealed a 30 million ruble shortfall in the naval budget, but Nikolai turned a blind eye. It wasn't customary for the Romanovs to air dirty laundry in public. Read up on the internet about who Elise Balett was and how she lived.
            1. +4
              24 November 2025 15: 00
              Or maybe not this very Elise, but where can I look for these revisions? Nothing pops up right away.
              1. 0
                24 November 2025 22: 02
                That's it, everyone knows and writes about the ballerina, but there are no specifics)))
            2. +1
              1 December 2025 10: 19
              Quote: faiver
              In 1903, an audit revealed a 30 million ruble shortfall in the naval budget, but Nikolai turned a blind eye. It wasn't customary for the Romanovs to air dirty laundry in public. Read up on the internet about who Elise Balett was and how she lived.

              Ask Timur Ivanov's wives, who are demanding the return of 200 kg of jewelry purchased with their salaries.
          2. +3
            26 November 2025 21: 15
            As far as I know, the most expensive acquisition for Elise, which was attributed to the VCAA, was a Faberge egg.
            In 1913, 24,600 rubles were paid for the Fabergé "Winter" Egg, a gift from Nicholas II to his mother. This price made it one of the most expensive gifts in the history of the Romanov family, especially considering that 1913 was a jubilee year—the 300th anniversary of the House of Romanov.

            Considering his income as a Grand Duke alone was 150,000 rubles, free housing (the palace was a gift from his brother), access to all the benefits of the Family, G-A's salary and essentially zero living expenses, it is unlikely that he had an urgent need for money.
            And the fate of Grand Duke Nikolai Konstantinovich gives cause for reflection
            1. -5
              27 November 2025 16: 12
              That's it, people like to "sweep with a broom" without going into details.
            2. +1
              30 November 2025 22: 48
              It's unlikely he had an urgent need for money

              Really? Why do you think a businessman, once he lands a cushy government job, starts stealing millions?
              1. 0
                30 November 2025 23: 14
                Well, man! Such an opportunity may never present itself again! That's why... he puts it in his pocket... laughing
                1. +2
                  1 December 2025 00: 18
                  Duck man

                  You speak correctly, comrade!
                  So, General-Admiral Grand Duke A.A. was also a man. And he also pocketed what the French offered. Of course, not for nothing...
              2. -2
                2 December 2025 00: 16
                Well, he's not a businessman. He's sort of a member of the royal family, and the family's well-being is directly dependent on the well-being of the state.
          3. 0
            2 December 2025 11: 25
            Is there any evidence that Alexey Alexandrovich stole anything on a large scale or took bribes?

            You ask strange questions...
            And who, in your opinion, would have collected this evidence against Grand Duke A.A. for you? Himself? Or perhaps his nephew, the Tsar? Or perhaps their inner circle, who fed at their hands?
            1. +1
              2 December 2025 15: 02
              That is, you don’t know, you shouldn’t have bothered writing a comment to answer a question you don’t know the answer to.
    3. +3
      24 November 2025 13: 48
      Don't blame it all on these two. There were equally vile characters there.
  4. +2
    24 November 2025 09: 45
    According to this document, it turned out that already in 1898 the Japanese fleet would gain qualitative superiority over the Russian fleet in Far Eastern waters.

    I've always wondered. When planning for a confrontation with Japan and building battleships, why didn't anyone consider whether there was the infrastructure for them in Vladivostok?
    1. +5
      24 November 2025 10: 45
      Our eternal affliction. When the heavy aircraft carriers were being built, there was no infrastructure for them in either the Northern Fleet or the Pacific Fleet, and there still isn't.
    2. +9
      24 November 2025 11: 33
      Quote: Puncher
      According to this document, it turned out that already in 1898 the Japanese fleet would gain qualitative superiority over the Russian fleet in Far Eastern waters.

      I've always wondered. When planning for a confrontation with Japan and building battleships, why didn't anyone consider whether there was the infrastructure for them in Vladivostok?

      Port Arthur was planned to be the key base for battleships in the Pacific Ocean. A cruiser squadron was to be based in Vladivostok.
      Infrastructure was being built at both bases, but as always, “they didn’t have time.”
      Incidentally, Japan chose the timing of its attack on Russia wisely. In short, a year earlier or a year later, our starting conditions would have been an order of magnitude better.
      Furthermore, the damage to two battleships and one cruiser on the first night of the war, followed by the loss of Varyag and Koreyets, and later Boyarin, reduced the Pacific Squadron's initiative to zero.
      For example, if Japan had attacked us a month later, the First Pacific Squadron would have had the advantage of having the nuclear-powered submarine Oslyabya and the large missile ship Aurora. Perhaps the Varyag would have already returned to Port Arthur.
      In this situation, it would already be fashionable to push the Japanese on equal terms.
      1. +3
        24 November 2025 12: 10
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        In short, a year earlier or a year later, our starting conditions would have been an order of magnitude better.

        Let's say. The Port Arthur squadron decided to break through to Vladivostok, and they also sent the 2nd squadron to assist. Let's imagine they succeeded, and both squadrons ended up in Vladivostok. The Japanese, let's say, let them pass in order to deal with the Port Arthur garrison.
        But in that case, this whole horde of battleships wouldn't have posed any threat to the Japanese fleet, because without port infrastructure, there would have been no coal for them, no ammunition, no spare parts for repairs. Where would Orel, for example, be dry-docked? Within six months, they would have been reduced to junk, impossible to repair and impossible to return to the Baltic Fleet.
        1. +6
          24 November 2025 12: 16
          The Japanese would have let them through, let's say, in order to deal with the Port Arthur garrison.

          If significant losses are inflicted on Japanese naval forces, the possibility of a blockade of the land of the rising sun will arise.
          You can't win a naval war by defense. A. Shtenzel.
          1. +1
            24 November 2025 12: 19
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            If significant losses are inflicted on Japanese naval forces, the possibility of a blockade of the land of the rising sun will arise.

            As far as I remember, no one had such a goal, and all attempts to leave Port Arthur were aimed at reaching Vladivostok. Makarov may have wanted to, but after his death, no one was planning to.
            1. +7
              24 November 2025 12: 20
              Perhaps Makarov wanted it, but after his death no one was planning it.

              The fish rots from the head, but they start cleaning it from the tail.
              The question of the role of personality in history remains open.
              1. +4
                24 November 2025 12: 24
                Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                The question of the role of personality in history remains open.

                For me, this question is clear; a person's personality determines a lot. Much of history would have taken a different course had a weakling, of which there are always more, found himself in the key position.
        2. +9
          24 November 2025 12: 43
          Quote: Puncher
          Where to carry out docking in Orel, for example?

          There was a dock in Vladivostok. It could accommodate any ship of the 1st or 2nd class.
        3. +4
          24 November 2025 13: 55
          Vladivostok had a dock that could accommodate all the RIF ships in the Far East, and there were port workshops. Bringing in the necessary machine tools and craftsmen was no problem, as was everything else—the Trans-Siberian Railway was operational. The presence of the fleet in Vladivostok significantly impacted the balance of power, as the Japanese army was supplied from the mother country, and any disruption in supply would have had catastrophic consequences.
          1. 0
            25 November 2025 05: 11
            Quote: TermNachTER
            There was a dock in Vladivostok that could accommodate all the ships of the Russian Navy in the Far East.

            If it's not too much trouble, where can I read about it? I saw a photo of a small dock where a cruiser was docked, but a battleship wouldn't fit.
            1. +8
              25 November 2025 10: 10
              Quote: Puncher
              There was a cruiser there, but a battleship wouldn't have fit.

              Why?
              "Gromoboy" length 146m width 21. "Tsesarevich" length 121m width 23.
              1. +2
                25 November 2025 10: 36
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                Why?

                Yes, I got hurt.
            2. +2
              25 November 2025 11: 12
              It's common knowledge that the entire 1st Pacific Fleet went to Vladivostok for dry-docking, as there was no such dock in Artur. I don't recall the name of the Vladivostok dock or its dimensions, but it could accommodate all ships of both length and width available in the Far East at the time.
              1. +3
                25 November 2025 11: 17
                Quote: TermNachTER
                I don’t remember the name of the Vladivostok dock and its parameters, but it could accommodate all the ships available in the Far East at that time, both in length and width.

                Thanks, they already pointed it out to me. The dock was called Nikolaevsky. I have a photo. It's a big dock. But thanks anyway.
              2. +4
                25 November 2025 11: 57
                Quote: TermNachTER
                It is common knowledge that the entire 1st Pacific Fleet went to Vladivostok for dry-docking.

                Actually, in Nagasaki, since it's closer...
                1. -1
                  25 November 2025 12: 54
                  Well, they went to Nagasaki while they were friends with the Japanese. In the last years, before the war, they didn't go often anymore.
          2. 0
            3 December 2025 14: 16
            The road to the south of Lake Baikal was built by 1911.
            The Trans-Siberian Railway was fully completed in 1916, when a bridge across the Amur was opened.
            In 1904, only ferries crossed Lake Baikal and Amur.
            1. 0
              3 December 2025 14: 28
              But was there a message? Albeit with certain problems. I'm not saying everything had to be transported within a couple of months when the war began. If they had begun preparing for war in 1900, there would have been more than enough time to bring in everything necessary.
        4. +1
          24 November 2025 15: 38
          Quote: Puncher
          Let's say the squadron from Port Arthur decided to break through to Vladivostok, and they also sent a second squadron to help.

          Overall, under certain conditions, a breakthrough might not have been necessary.
          1. 0
            25 November 2025 05: 14
            Quote: Trapper7
            Overall, under certain conditions, a breakthrough might not have been necessary.

            Like they would all be based in Port Arthur?
            1. 0
              25 November 2025 07: 45
              Like they would have sunk the Japanese fleet.))
              1. +2
                25 November 2025 07: 48
                Quote: Rakovor
                Like they would have sunk the Japanese fleet.))

                That's doubtful. He could always hide in the bases. That is, they could inflict damage on him, causing the Japanese fleet to retreat to the shore. That would be a victory, but it would have to be held by a blockade.
              2. +3
                25 November 2025 11: 22
                There was no need to sink them. The only solution was to disrupt the supply lines from Japan to Korea, after which the Japanese army's capitulation would become a matter of time.
        5. +2
          24 November 2025 16: 37
          Nikolaevsky (five hundred foot) dry dock.
          1. 0
            25 November 2025 05: 18
            Quote: dr5r
            Nikolayevsky

            Thank you very much. I found it and read it. They only say he was busy.
            1. 0
              27 November 2025 16: 40
              The Bogatyr needs to be patched up at the bottom, pulled to the wall and finished in the caissons, for example.
              1. 0
                28 November 2025 04: 28
                Quote: dr5r
                The Bogatyr needs to be patched up at the bottom, pulled to the wall and finished in the caissons, for example.

                Well, that's understandable... But the Second Pacific Squadron of the EBR has eight pennants, and each one requires repairs and maintenance in the dock. And besides that, there are cruisers and the like. What if we add the squadron from Port Arthur?
        6. 0
          3 December 2025 14: 12
          In Vladivostok there were two docks for VI ships up to 12,000 tons.
      2. 0
        24 November 2025 13: 22
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        In this situation, it would already be fashionable to push the Japanese on equal terms.


        Impossible under any circumstances. The Japanese have everything within easy reach, the mother country is nearby, plus potential supplies from their de facto allies (like the British). And what about the Russians? The Far East itself has a weak industrial base, the Trans-Siberian Railway isn't operational yet, and "the most important thing in war is supply." They have little room to maneuver, and the concentration of their fleet in two bases makes them extremely vulnerable.
        The opponent initially had a huge advantage, which was practically impossible to overcome.
        1. +3
          1 December 2025 10: 38
          Quote: Illanatol
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          In this situation, it would already be fashionable to push the Japanese on equal terms.


          Impossible under any circumstances. The Japanese have everything within easy reach, the mother country is nearby, plus potential supplies from their de facto allies (like the British). And what about the Russians? The Far East itself has a weak industrial base, the Trans-Siberian Railway isn't operational yet, and "the most important thing in war is supply." They have little room to maneuver, and the concentration of their fleet in two bases makes them extremely vulnerable.
          The opponent initially had a huge advantage, which was practically impossible to overcome.

          On the contrary. Having two bases and two squadrons stretches the Japanese fleet. Three cruisers distracted Kamimura's squadron.
      3. 0
        4 December 2025 09: 43
        For example, if Japan had attacked us a month later, the First Pacific Squadron would have had the advantage of having the nuclear-powered submarine Oslyabya and the large missile ship Aurora. Perhaps the Varyag would have already returned to Port Arthur.
        In this situation, it would already be fashionable to push the Japanese on equal terms.

        Even if all three ships had been in Port Arthur at the start of the Russian Nuclear War, it would have made little difference. A semi-carrier/sub-cruiser and two armored deck ships were unlikely to significantly alter the balance of power.
    3. +8
      24 November 2025 11: 38
      Quote: Puncher
      When planning a confrontation with Japan and building battleships, why didn't anyone consider whether there was infrastructure for them in Vladivostok?

      Ahem... that's the Naval Ministry. The same one that first sent the dismantled Sokols to the Far East in 1899 and then decided to inquire about the availability of shipbuilding facilities in Vladivostok. smile
      On January 18, the head of the Izhora plant announced his intention to send engineer Vologdin to Vladivostok to assemble three Sokol-class destroyers;
      On January 20, the GUKiS asks to report "the size and number of boathouses for the upcoming assembly of four destroyers 190 feet long, whether there are devices for boring the brackets, what size and how many covered lockable sheds you can give for work." (Note: all this should have been figured out at least a year ago.)
      January 30 was followed by a brief, but full of hidden rage, response from Vladivostok signed by Vice Admiral G.P. Chukhnin: "There are no boathouses, workshops, sheds, and loans for their construction too."
      © V.Yu. Usov. Port Arthur "falcons".
      There was also a strange story about how the same MM ordered assembly at the same time in Port Arthur and Vladivostok.
      Nevertheless, on November 4, the steamship left for its destination, and only in December in Vladivostok did they receive copies of the contracts, from which it followed that the collapsible "falcons" were being built for the port of Vladivostok, and in Port Arthur - a telegraphic notification about the assembly of the destroyers in this port!
      1. 0
        24 November 2025 12: 12
        Quote: Alexey RA
        There was also a wonderful story.

        What would you do with the EBRs if more than 10 units arrived?
        1. +6
          24 November 2025 14: 07
          Quote: Puncher
          What would you do with the EBRs if more than 10 units arrived?

          Somehow, with God's help, we will overcome the enemy. ©

          Moreover, it's not a fact that they even knew the real state of affairs at Spiez. If we take the post-Tsushima testimony regarding Vladivostok, for example, the Vladivostok Port Commander, Rear Admiral Greve, reported that:
          The repair facilities of the port in the spring of 1905 were in very good condition.
          And only at the end it suddenly turned out that
          Taking these data into account, I believe that the 2nd Squadron, having arrived in Vladivostok after the battle, not without losses in ships and guns, could have had a sufficiently satisfactory base in Vladivostok to replenish its ammunition reserves in May 1905. As for spare guns, by that time Vladivostok had 33-6-inch and 22-75 mm cartridge guns with mounts. Modern large-caliber guns could not be delivered to Vladivostok.

          Everything seems to be in good order overall, with only a few shortcomings... until you read the testimony of the Chief Artilleryman of the Vladivostok Port, Colonel Savitsky of the Naval Artillery Corps. And it turns out the devil is in the details. There are no castings, no forgings, not enough machine tools, and no reserves. And only if all this could somehow be built or obtained—only then:
          If the existing artillery workshops were supplemented by the above, I believe they could handle the artillery work of the entire 2nd Squadron, which was attempting to break through to Vladivostok. Of course, success would have been even more likely if Vladivostok's extensive arsenal had already stockpiled a certain percentage of guns, machine tools, and generally items requiring factory manufacture and produced in bulk.

          Oh yes...
          After the supply of the 2nd squadron of the Pacific Ocean, all the combat reserves of the port, except for 8 "guns of 45 cal., Finally dried up and further replenishment of the detachment of Vladivostok cruisers, ships of the Siberian Flotilla and the Mine Detachment with combat reserves should have been The 2nd squadron, having broken through to Vladivostok and received only half the supply of large-caliber guns, would thus have been noticeably weakened.

          And the number of guns mentioned by Greve was also not present at the port.
          In general, it can be said that by May 15, 1905, the port arsenal could only have guns delivered to the fortress and three guns stored in the arsenal, of which 9 "were without a machine tool and are not needed for the 2nd squadron, also two 6" guns with a special purpose.
          The following were transferred to the fortress over the entire period:
          8 "guns in 35 cal. With machine tools ..... 2
          6 "" "45" "" ..... 14
          76 mm. with settings. ... ... ... ... ... .12
          75 mm. " " .........4
          As for 12, 10 and 8" modern guns, as well as installations and parts for them, there have never been any.

          But it was Greve, not Savitsky, who reported to St. Petersburg.
    4. +2
      24 November 2025 13: 51
      It could have been, if there had been people with brains at the helm. The construction of the Dalny port cost a huge amount of money, which could have been spent on Vladivostok. Moreover, when Dalny was being routed to Port Arthur, no attempt was made to destroy it. It fell to the Japanese in perfect condition and immediately became a staging base for the army.
    5. +1
      24 November 2025 19: 51
      Quote: Puncher
      Why has no one thought about whether there is infrastructure for them in Vladivostok?

      In fact, they were planning to build it there, but, as usual, they didn’t have time...
      1. +1
        25 November 2025 05: 21
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        In fact, they were planning to build it there, but, as usual, they didn’t have time...

        I found something about a dock. The cruiser Bogatyr was moored there, but there were no materials for repairs. I wonder what they would have used to patch up the Orel.
    6. +2
      26 November 2025 13: 59
      Quote: Puncher
      When planning a confrontation with Japan and building battleships, why didn't anyone consider whether there was infrastructure for them in Vladivostok?

      The main base of the Pacific Fleet was Port Arthur. Only a cruiser detachment was based in Vladivostok.
      Well, the answer to the question itself is that the Fleet command thought and planned.
      The Tsar - NO! He didn't think about anything at all - there was nothing to think about, he was just giving birth to an heir. Witte CATEGORICALLY didn't give money for all these naval and military needs. And not only for the infrastructure of the bases, the deepening of fairways, the construction of docks for the repair and maintenance of ships, for coastal artillery and, in fact, for the strengthening of the main naval base. Witte DID NOT SPEND ANY MONEY for all this. And Witte didn't give money for the production/purchase of high-quality FULL-FLEDGED shells for the navy. And for the expansion of the production capacity of naval artillery and armor plates/armor for ship construction - either.
      Like he didn't have one?
      It was! But he didn't give it.
      The Generous Lopata provided funds for the construction of the Dalniy commercial port with all its infrastructure and for the construction of the city itself. But not for the fortification of the port itself. So the Japanese captured it without a fight and made it their main base on the continent and a logistics hub for supplies.
      1. -1
        30 November 2025 01: 08
        The main base of the Pacific Fleet was Port Arthur

        Another tragic mistake of the military-political and naval leadership of the Russian Empire!
        Port Arthur was completely unsuitable for a Pacific Fleet base. A look at the map clearly shows it—it was simply a trap for the fleet that would be based there. Admiral Dubasov wrote about this in his reports. But no one listened to him. The country's leadership was as stubborn as a sheep. We needed the eastern coast of Korea (Mozampo) for a fleet base. And the most interesting thing is, it was possible to get it!! But our politicians squandered this opportunity.
        1. +2
          30 November 2025 01: 58
          Quote: Murmillo
          We needed the east coast of Korea (Mozampo) to base our fleet. And the most interesting thing is, we could have gotten it!! But our politicians squandered this opportunity...

          We could have certainly gotten Mozanpo... The logistics issue was that there was no railway there, and his supply reach was even greater than Arthur's. Arthur's back was Manchuria, which we considered practically ours and was the base of our fleet. About a dozen coal mines had been opened along our railway line to supply the main Pacific Fleet base. It was also planned to obtain food for all our troops and settlements in Manchuria and Kwantung locally, cultivating fields in the Extraterritoriality Zone along the CER (10 km wide), since the soil and climate allowed us to grow crops familiar to us there, conduct agriculture, and raise livestock. Steel mills and other production facilities were planned for Harbin and other cities and settlements, since a powerful shipyard was planned for Kwantung... or rather, two - in Arthur itself and in Dalny. All industry, production, and cooperation were supposed to be based in Manchuria. Organizing all of this in Korea was simply impossible. While it would have been possible to establish another Pacific Fleet base there, it would have been a bit later—when the Trans-Siberian Railway and the railway to Korea were completed, and when all Pacific Fleet forces were deployed to the theater of operations. Vladivostok was certainly no good as a naval base—it simply froze in the winter.
          So, Artur and Dalny were chosen correctly. What was wrong was that Witte didn't provide funds for the development and strengthening of the Pacific Fleet's main base. And this was on the eve of an almost inevitable war. In Artur, not only were docks and proper berths not built, but even the fairways weren't deepened enough for ships to sail at low tide. He didn't provide funds for coastal defense, nor for fortifying Kwantung on the isthmus from possible land attacks. Everything was in the plans, there was an abundance of labor (Chinese), but... Witte didn't provide funds. But he generously invested in the Dalny commercial port, which the Japanese captured without a fight, intact, with all its enormous reserves and infrastructure, and used it as their base. Because Witte again didn't provide funds for fortifying Dalny. In fact, the money was there, but he "spared" it.
          Moreover, in the Russian Empire, there was a belief and a mindset that Russia wasn't on the defensive in Manchuria and Kwantung, but rather on the offensive. And the meager forces of the Pacific Fleet's 1st Squadron were tasked, on the very eve of the Russian Empire, with searching for and defeating the main body of the Japanese Navy. Nothing more, nothing less. That's how the tsar commanded it. That's precisely why the squadron then moved out to the outer roadstead, as it was supposed to put to sea in the morning to search for the Japanese Navy. But that night, that fleet's destroyers found our squadron in the roadstead and disabled two of its best battleships and a cruiser. After that, our squadron didn't search for anyone else.
          This is the price of DyR@k@ on the throne.
          And the Spy at the same time DyR@ke (Witte).
          1. -1
            30 November 2025 15: 47
            Building an icebreaker for Vladivostok isn't a problem. It doesn't even have to be the Yermak; something lighter, like the Tarmo, would do just fine; it could also serve as an auxiliary cruiser.
            1. -1
              30 November 2025 19: 08
              As far as I remember, there were some small icebreakers there, like today's tugboats, to calcine the ice around ships. And to create a channel for the ships to exit, they sometimes blasted or sawed the ice by hand.
              And why did we need such a hassle for the main base of the Pacific Fleet?
              Access to warm seas! To ice-free ports! For normal maritime trade with the countries of Southeast Asia (then colonies) and China.
              The location in Arthur was chosen correctly, but the preparation of the naval base, the construction of ships, the training of gunners, and the overall preparation for war are simply idiotic. Because DyR@40k is on the throne and the prime minister is a spy... It couldn't have been otherwise.
              We couldn't build the Trans-Siberian Railway and the Circum-Baikal Railway any faster, and we were already breaking all records. But we were perfectly capable of building modern ships in sufficient quantity and quality. We had the capacity to order such ships from foreign shipyards, and a properly chosen battleship design would have allowed us to build them at our own shipyards, in France, and the USA, within the required timeframe, with their deployment in Arthur by the end of 1903. Germany was prepared to build up to eight armored cruisers for us in the same timeframe (at three of its shipyards).
              But DyR@k and a spy are a deadly combination for the Empire.
              1. -1
                30 November 2025 20: 40
                Arthur isn't exactly geographically well-located—deep in the Yellow Sea—and there's the problem of leaving the base. And then there's the distance from Russian territory.
                1. +1
                  30 November 2025 21: 36
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  Well, and the distance from Russian territory.

                  Through Manchuria, on the contrary, it was closer, and also through farmland, coal mines, and future industrial clusters. Through the future Granary, Forge, and even Health Resort of Far Eastern Russia. We already practically considered Manchuria ours, so the main naval base had/was developing a reliable rear with a short supply route. Read Sharapova's plans for it (Manchuria).
                  And the distance from Japan... well, at the time of the base's construction and development and the deployment of the Pacific Fleet, it was only a plus. Remember how Togo wasted his ships in the Formosa roadstead.
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  but there is a problem with exiting the database.

                  So what's the big deal? Two dredgers, and in six months at most, both fairways would have been deepened to allow free passage from the base to any water. Witte didn't allocate the money for this, but the capabilities were there; bringing in two dredges was no problem. This was planned and prepared – but they didn't provide the money. The same goes for fortifying the base itself and creating fortifications on the Liaodong Isthmus. The terrain there is very convenient for organizing a defense. And attracting the Chinese for construction and excavation work was no problem at all. It all came down to money.
                  But Witte did not spare money on the trading port and the city of Dalny - he tried his best for the Japanese.
                  Moreover, we were working diplomatically to place Korea under the protectorate of the Russian Empire. But the practical implementation of the Korean Project could only begin after the completion of the Trans-Siberian and Circum-Baikal Railways, the settlement of Manchuria, and the deployment of the main forces of the Pacific Fleet. In other words, work with Korea was being done with a long-term perspective. Manchuria was our primary concern at the time. Only it offered a chance for the full-fledged development of the Far East. They planned to resettle up to 30 million peasants there from the already overcrowded western provinces. This would be done at government expense, with relocation allowances, loans, and generous land grants. It was a grandiose program, and because of it, they even set Japan against us.
                  But after the deployment of the Pacific Fleet's main forces and with overwhelming superiority over the Japanese navy, Korea could have been annexed. Voluntarily, of course. We would have had Pacific Fleet bases there, too, but as operational ones.
                  Sharapov had the money to build a fleet (and not just the Pacific Fleet), to develop Siberia, to settle Manchuria, and to annex and develop Korea. These were very good and well-thought-out plans. The economic impact alone was simply fantastic. In essence, in the Far East, Russia was gaining a second (Pacific) center of power with economic potential roughly equal to that of the entire European part of the Russian Empire. And without compromising the development and pace of that development in other regions of the Russian Empire. On the contrary, a powerful synergy was expected.
                  And the main base of the Fleet must be in a place that is as protected as possible and remote from a potential enemy.
                  Russia was literally cut down at takeoff.
                  1. 0
                    30 November 2025 22: 21
                    This was all just assumed, but in reality, the Honghuzi carried out sabotage on the CER in exchange for Japanese yen.
                    Deepening and widening the fairway wasn't the only problem. A dock, workshops, an arsenal, and much more were needed. The investment required was considerable. Mozanpo had both advantages and disadvantages, thanks to its geography.
                    1. -1
                      30 November 2025 22: 41
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      It was all just assumed,

                      Well, the coal mines were working, they were mining coal for the Pacific Fleet, and they were located along the CER—that was already a very serious trump card in Arthur's favor. The rest was just done. Sharapov's team also drew up the plans, but closer to the Russian Revolution, Witte pushed them (and especially Sharapov himself) away from the Court and from participating in affairs. So, he could no longer influence the implementation of his own plans and projects. Witte's spy took everything into his own hands and purposefully led the Russian Empire to defeat in the Russian Revolution and the First Russian Revolution. It was he, Witte, who was the Godfather of the revolutionary uprising of 1905-1907. So, everything was conceived very well, financed so-so, and just before the war, it was simply sabotaged by Witte and his agents.
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      Deepening and widening the fairway wasn't the only problem. A dock, workshops, an arsenal, and much more were needed. The investment required was considerable.

                      All of this was planned and designed, but there was no funding. They managed to build a dock in Vladivostok at the time, and I think there was even a dock in Dalny (it was a commercial port, after all), but in Artur they didn't even provide money for coastal artillery. It's a miracle that they managed to install batteries on Zolotaya Gora and Elektrichesky Utes just in time. But many more batteries were needed there.
                      As for the workshops, there weren't just workshops there, but also the beginnings of a shipbuilding plant - after all, they assembled destroyers there, and they were able to repair battleships and cruisers... There was little time, and the Spy allocated even less money.
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      Mozanpo had both pros and cons due to its geography.

                      Mozanpo could have become an operational base for the Pacific Fleet, but certainly not the navy's main base. And even then, only in the long term. Just remember what the cruisers of several European countries and the United States were doing in Chemulpo—they were monitoring Korea's neutrality and ensuring it didn't become a protectorate of the Russian Empire.
  5. +3
    24 November 2025 10: 01
    Therefore, even under Nicholas I, Germany began to be considered a potential enemy, and by 1880 it had also begun to strengthen its navy.

    Under Nicholas I, there was no Germany yet, only Prussia. Are you referring to Alexander II?
    1. 0
      24 November 2025 13: 59
      And the German navy was basically just a "paper" thing. The ships were built, and a general who wasn't a pity was appointed to command them. The crews were trained accordingly.
      1. +1
        25 November 2025 08: 09
        Perhaps at first. But the Kriegsmarine performed quite well in the First World War, competing on equal terms with the British. As for the merits of our own battleships and cruisers... it's hard to even remember. It would have been better if they'd built more "noviks" and submarines; at least they were useful.
        1. 0
          25 November 2025 11: 24
          Well, as for equals, that's a bit hasty, sir. There was one, not very successful, attempt – Jutland, and they never tried again.
          1. +4
            25 November 2025 13: 19
            Quote: TermNachTER
            Well, as for equals, that's a bit hasty, sir. There was one, not very successful, attempt – Jutland, and they never tried again.


            Jutland is effectively a draw. For the fledgling German Navy, drawing with the "mistress of the seas," despite the enemy's numerical superiority, is an absolute success! When was the last time Russia experienced something similar, remember?
            Yes, the Germans failed to solve their main strategic problem. But neither did the British. Plans for amphibious landings (in Kiel, for example) remained just plans. After this battle, seaborne attacks no longer threatened the Fatherland; there were no willing to take the risk.
            So yes, on equal terms.
            1. +1
              25 November 2025 13: 46
              Quote: Illanatol
              Yes, the Germans failed to solve the main strategic problem. But neither did the British.

              What do you consider the Germans' "strategic objective"? To break up the Grand Fleet piecemeal?
              1. 0
                25 November 2025 13: 51
                Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                What do you consider the Germans' "strategic objective"? To break up the Grand Fleet piecemeal?


                Well, as a maximum objective, yes, perhaps. The minimum objective, in my humble opinion, was to inflict such damage on the Royal Navy that it would be unable to effectively protect sea lanes with its numerous colonies, and the Germans, using submarines and raiders, would be able to paralyze the mother country's communications with these colonies, depriving the British of the resources to wage the war as a whole. The Germans assumed that the British's superior naval power would be spread thinly across the globe, while the Kriegsmarine could be concentrated into a single fist. Well, that didn't work out, especially when the Yankees got involved.
                1. 0
                  25 November 2025 14: 49
                  The participation of the American fleet, against the backdrop of the Grand Fleet, must be examined under a microscope)))
                  1. +1
                    25 November 2025 14: 55
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    The participation of the American fleet, against the backdrop of the Grand Fleet, must be examined under a microscope)))

                    There they were already talking about WWII... :)
                    1. 0
                      25 November 2025 15: 04
                      The US Navy's involvement in the North Atlantic was also not particularly active.
                      1. 0
                        25 November 2025 17: 08
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The US Navy's involvement in the North Atlantic was also not particularly active.

                        In fact, even the work of American patrol aircraft was enough to ruin all the German plans.
                      2. -1
                        25 November 2025 17: 28
                        American aviation began to work seriously much later.
                      3. +1
                        25 November 2025 17: 47
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        American aviation began to work seriously much later.

                        German submariners strongly disagree with you.
                      4. 0
                        25 November 2025 17: 50
                        The Americans started working "like adults" at the end of 41, and in 43 the "Battle of the Atlantic" ended.
                2. 0
                  1 December 2025 10: 50
                  Quote: Illanatol
                  Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                  What do you consider the Germans' "strategic objective"? To break up the Grand Fleet piecemeal?


                  Well, as a maximum objective, yes, perhaps. The minimum objective, in my humble opinion, was to inflict such damage on the Royal Navy that it would be unable to effectively protect sea lanes with its numerous colonies, and the Germans, using submarines and raiders, would be able to paralyze the mother country's communications with these colonies, depriving the British of the resources to wage the war as a whole. The Germans assumed that the British's superior naval power would be spread thinly across the globe, while the Kriegsmarine could be concentrated into a single fist. Well, that didn't work out, especially when the Yankees got involved.

                  Their communications were protected by cruisers and battleships, and Japan also helped. Spee made a bit of noise and sank. It would have been rather bold for the Germans to send those same battlecruisers to "make some noise" on their communications.
                  1. 0
                    1 December 2025 13: 53
                    Quote: Panin (Michman)
                    Their communications were protected by cruisers and battleships, and Japan also helped. Spee made a bit of noise and sank. It would have been rather bold for the Germans to send those same battlecruisers to "make some noise" on their communications.


                    But the outcome might have been different if the outcome of the main battle with the British had been more favorable for the Kriegsmarine. And let's not forget the submarines; contrary to the opinions of some British admirals, they proved to be an effective weapon.
              2. 0
                25 November 2025 14: 48
                This was Scheer's idea, as always unsuccessful)))
              3. +1
                27 November 2025 21: 08
                Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                What do you consider to be the "strategic task" for the Germans?

                Greetings. You could have honestly pointed out to your opponent right away that the Hochseeflotte's primary mission in 1916 was to lift the "long-range naval blockade" of Germany, which was strangling the country and was being carried out with the Grand Fleet's naval dominance. This is impossible without a decisive victory in a general engagement. And taking this into account, piecemeal, or as a whole, is already a matter of tactics.
                1. 0
                  28 November 2025 12: 59
                  And did FOM have the ability, based on the actual number of ships, to lift the blockade?
                  1. 0
                    29 November 2025 19: 53
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    And did FOM have the ability, based on the actual number of ships, to lift the blockade?

                    In an open, pitched battle – no. That's why the tactic of "pulling apart" the main forces was chosen. The Falklands and Dogger Bank are examples of this. It still didn't work out very well. The Germans realized the value of submarines too late and couldn't fully determine their strategy for using them.
                    1. 0
                      29 November 2025 20: 33
                      Quote: Adrey
                      The Falklands and Dogger Bank are examples of this.

                      Not a single example: the Falklands were a banal reaction to a "slap in the face" in the form of Coronel: such things are not forgiven. Dogger Bank was a banal ambush for the Germans: Beatty was waiting for Hipper.
                      1. -1
                        29 November 2025 20: 37
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Not an example at all: the Falklands are a banal reaction to a "slap in the face" in the form of Coronel:

                        Yes, the action was not unplanned, but nevertheless it showed that the enemy forces could be dispersed.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Dogger Bank was a banal ambush for the Germans: Beatty was waiting for Hipper.

                        And Hipper was waiting for Beatty together with PL. Well, it turned out as it turned out. request
                      2. 0
                        30 November 2025 02: 22
                        And it was a setup from the British, there is a version that Spee was sent a fake radiogram
                    2. 0
                      1 December 2025 10: 54
                      Quote: Adrey
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      And did FOM have the ability, based on the actual number of ships, to lift the blockade?

                      In an open, pitched battle – no. That's why the tactic of "pulling apart" the main forces was chosen. The Falklands and Dogger Bank are examples of this. It still didn't work out very well. The Germans realized the value of submarines too late and couldn't fully determine their strategy for using them.

                      Well, actually, the British didn't even feel any weakening of their forces when they sent battlecruisers to the Falklands. Although Churchill, or whoever else, wrote that he was "breaking out in a cold sweat."
                      1. 0
                        3 December 2025 14: 12
                        Churchill loved "beautiful phrases"))) in reality, the dispatch of Sturdee's squadron had no effect on the balance of power in the North Sea
            2. -1
              25 November 2025 14: 01
              Quote: Illanatol
              Jutland is a virtual "draw".

              If my memory serves me right, the Grand Fleet announced its readiness to put 20 dreadnoughts to sea the very next day after the battle.
              The high seas fleet remained under repair until August.
              From here on, everyone can draw their own conclusions.
              1. -1
                25 November 2025 14: 10
                Quote: Trapper7
                If my memory serves me right, the Grand Fleet announced its readiness to put 20 dreadnoughts to sea the very next day after the battle.


                And what difference would that make? So, if they'd deployed (or just promised to deploy) 20 dreadnoughts to sea... so what? If these combat units had appeared off Hamburg and Kiel and at least shelled those cities, and British destroyers (or light cruisers) had entered German rivers, it would have been a real sensation. But essentially, the British were left dealing with German raiders far from the main Kriegsmarine forces.
                So the conclusions that emerge aren't exactly flattering for the Brits. They had no particular advantages over the Germans on land, nor at sea. And World War II didn't exactly bring glory to British sailors; the navy of their former colony excelled more. Nelson's glory days were over...
                1. +2
                  25 November 2025 14: 30
                  I disagree about WWII. Despite all the problems their navy had in the interwar period, the British performed quite well there.
                2. +2
                  25 November 2025 14: 54
                  No one had ever set such tasks as raiding the Kiel or Wilhelmshaven roadsteads before the Grand Fleet. Its mission was a long-range blockade of Germany. Mission accomplished. Regarding WWII, the Kriegsmarine was in an even worse position than the Reichsmarine in WWI.
                3. +1
                  25 November 2025 14: 57
                  Quote: Illanatol
                  If these combat units had appeared in the roadstead of Hamburg and Kiel and at least carried out shelling of these cities, and British destroyers (or light cruisers) had entered German rivers, it would have been an undoubted sensation.

                  Excuse me, but why do the British need this?

                  Quote: Illanatol
                  And the Second World War did not particularly bring glory to British sailors; the fleet of their former colony distinguished itself more.

                  Can you expand the thought?
              2. 0
                25 November 2025 14: 51
                Some remained under repair until October. Overall, yes, the Grand Fleet was ready for combat within a month, with the exception of the Lion. Things were looking pretty grim for the Germans.
              3. +3
                25 November 2025 15: 04
                Quote: Trapper7
                The high seas fleet remained under repair until August.

                And when they tried to send him into battle the next time, the sailors rebelled...
                1. +1
                  25 November 2025 15: 41
                  Quote: Senior Sailor
                  And when they tried to send him into battle the next time, the sailors rebelled...

                  YES! Thank you. Now the thought seems complete.
            3. +1
              25 November 2025 14: 47
              The Germans themselves began telling tales of Jutland being a draw immediately after the battle. It's a very complex and multifaceted event, impossible to describe in a few words. But after the draw, the Germans never again engaged the British, which naturally led to their capitulation.
              1. +1
                25 November 2025 15: 04
                Yes, right after the fight they even declared victory.)
                1. 0
                  25 November 2025 15: 07
                  Well, it depends on how you look at it. If you count the losses of ships and personnel, then yes, it was a victory. But if you look at it as a whole, it wasn't even a draw, since Scheer's idea of ​​destroying the Grand Fleet piecemeal didn't work.
              2. +1
                27 November 2025 21: 16
                Quote: TermNachTER
                This is a very complex and multifaceted event; it cannot be described in a few words.

                Why is that? It's quite simple.
                The Deutsches were able to inflict impressive losses on the Brits, but the main task (seizing dominance in the theater of military operations, inflicting damage on the enemy irreparable damage) did not comply.
                The Britons suffered painful losses, but they did not lose their strategic positions.
                A curtain.
                P.S.: Well, yes, more than two words. laughingTwo sentences.
                1. 0
                  27 November 2025 22: 56
                  We need to start somewhere around 1906, when Germany began construction of the Hochsee Flotte.
                  1. 0
                    28 November 2025 17: 36
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    We need to start somewhere around 1906, when Germany began construction of the Hochsee Flotte.

                    What to start there?
                    Tirpitz's "risk theory" is a far-fetched idea born out of poverty: Germany simply could not build capital construction projects at the speed of Britain.
                    1. 0
                      30 November 2025 02: 24
                      So another solution to the problem had to be found. Tirpitz couldn't help but understand this.
                      1. 0
                        30 November 2025 11: 21
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        So another solution to the problem had to be found. Tirpitz couldn't help but understand this.

                        Tirpitz, perhaps, understood...
                        But cousin Willie was a great fan of drawing ship designs on tablecloths and napkins.
                      2. 0
                        30 November 2025 11: 26
                        Well, Willy may have been the Emperor, meaning the Kaiser, but there were other people involved in the decision-making process. Again, the first German dreadnoughts were certainly not masterpieces, but they weren't all that bad either. The Dreadnought and the first British battlecruisers weren't exactly masterpieces of shipbuilding either. They were very controversial ships, to put it mildly.
                  2. 0
                    3 December 2025 09: 35
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    We need to start somewhere around 1906, when Germany began construction of the Hochsee Flotte.

                    According to Tirpitz's book, they began 20 years earlier. But the real successes of this program began to emerge first in the mass construction of civilian steamships, around 1897, when the Germans began to seize leadership in maritime transport from the British, Dutch, and French. By 1905, the Germans already had a powerful and, in terms of quality, one of the best in the world in shipbuilding. The Reich began building the fleet that came to war under the law adopted in 1900, developing this program. The navy's very existence owes its existence to another program—the advancement of planned naval construction, prescribed by law, which began with the Naval Act of 1898. That is, eight years before 1906. The Hochsee fleet seen at Jutland took a very long time to prepare.
                    I'd also like to emphasize Tirpitz's policy of developing naval officers—he had an entire auxiliary fleet where captains gained experience. It was these naval officers who later proved themselves in the historic battle, and performed better than the British.
                    1. 0
                      3 December 2025 12: 42
                      Twenty years earlier, the construction of the German Navy began; at that point, these were just the first steps (experiments). But in 1906, they began building a fleet of "dreadnoughts."
              3. 0
                3 December 2025 09: 23
                Quote: TermNachTER
                The Germans themselves began to tell tales about Jutland being a draw

                The British, having sailed from Jutland, learned from the newspapers that they had lost. In this regard, German propaganda played a brilliant role. This was reinforced by the list of losses and the appearance of damaged ships. In England itself, the mood after Jutland was far from triumphant, but in fact, the Germans, having achieved local successes in the battle and aftermath (a battleship and three cruisers were torpedoed) and having proven that their fleet had not been built in vain, simply confirmed that their strategic position at sea could not be changed by cash alone, even if they fought successfully, and that this meant a strategic defeat for the state.
                1. 0
                  3 December 2025 12: 29
                  I have already said that the FOM did not have the opportunity to defeat the Grand Fleet, and Tirpitz’s “risk theory” “did not work.”
                  1. 0
                    3 December 2025 12: 35
                    I don’t know what theory you’re talking about – I read his book and didn’t find anything like that there.
                    He had two other ideas: a mobile, powerful, unscattered battle fleet that could deliver a serious blow at sea, and a theory about allies, where the fleet was a valuable argument for attracting them. He didn't harbor any theories about victory at all—in negotiations with the impudent, he was quite willing to accept a ratio of 3 keels to 2 in England's favor. And he heatedly debated the uselessness of cruisers without a network of bases and the ineffectiveness of a large fleet of small units.
                    1. 0
                      3 December 2025 13: 16
                      I read Tirpitz's book a long time ago, and I can't remember whether it included a "risk theory" or not. The theory basically stated that a German navy comparable in capabilities to the British would compel England to refrain from making "sudden moves" toward Germany. The British responded that for every German battleship or battlecruiser laid down, they would reciprocate with two of their own. By the start of WWI, the ratio was approximately 42:26, ​​both in service and on the slipways. But WWI showed that Tirpitz's theory "failed."
                      1. 0
                        3 December 2025 14: 52
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The British replied that they were on the bookmark

                        This was a subject of negotiations, and the British insisted on a 1:2 ratio, but for a long time the Germans didn't want it that way and wouldn't agree. I don't remember if this changed before the war, but for a long time there was no 2:1 agreement. But there was another thing: the Germans repeatedly delayed the laying of ships at the British's request, often to their own advantage.
                        Regarding the ratio, Tirpitz calculated not the overall number, but rather the ratio for each niche separately. For example, the ratio for battlecruisers, heavy cruisers, dreadnoughts, and destroyers.
                        The most significant was the ratio of dreadnoughts, not all of them, but their actual combat capability. The actual ratio of dreadnoughts was 20 to 15 at the start of the war, but it's important to consider the exact moment and how. For example, the Germans built Bayern, and many count it, but it didn't participate in the war.
                        In short, there was no 2:1 ratio. Regarding Tirpitz's theory, don't assume it was the only idea that defined German naval policy. There were many. For example, the Germans constantly discussed the idea of ​​a colonial fleet and cruisers, and even before the war, they were toying with the idea of ​​a massive submarine warfare. Tirpitz was against it, not because the idea was bad, but because the equipment wasn't ready for it. Tirpitz himself had previously commanded the fleet's mine warfare forces and never ignored this aspect, including destroyers and mine warfare. Already in 1915, he changed his mind and began advocating for unrestricted naval warfare, but that's a separate issue of illusions and diplomacy, because the Germans only launched it in 1916, after three years of naval warfare. But in Tirpitz's view, they were "too late."
                        In general, you are making some rather clever conclusions based on a very narrow sample of information.
          2. 0
            25 November 2025 13: 28
            Considering the real balance of power, they are more than equal.
            1. 0
              25 November 2025 14: 04
              Quote: Rakovor
              Considering the real balance of power, they are more than equal.

              This is called escaping the battlefield with your shoes down.
              1. 0
                25 November 2025 14: 07
                Despite a much more favorable balance of forces, almost all of our forces remained at the bottom of the Tsushima Strait. See the difference?
                1. +1
                  25 November 2025 14: 16
                  Of course. Our men had nowhere to retreat. But the Germans had somewhere to retreat.
                  But in general, this dispute about “who won in Jutland” has been going on for 100 years)
                  1. +1
                    25 November 2025 14: 22
                    So, I'm not talking about who won or lost, but about the fact that the Germans looked decent compared to the British. They should have reconsidered their main battery dreadnought concept a little earlier, otherwise the British would have been in a really bad way.
                    1. -1
                      25 November 2025 14: 58
                      That's the whole problem: the FOM was completely inadequate for the tasks assigned to it. It wasn't for the good of his life that Scheer took the EBR squadron with him. They might have been the newest, but they were certainly not "dreadnoughts."
                      1. +1
                        25 November 2025 17: 11
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        It wasn't for the good of his life that Scheer took a squadron of EBRs with him. Although they were the newest, they were certainly not "dreadnoughts."

                        If the legends are to be believed, it was all Mauve's whining, and we shouldn't forget that Scheer, before commanding the FOM, was the commander of the 2nd Battleship Squadron.
                      2. +1
                        25 November 2025 17: 30
                        Be that as it may, the Germans were very lucky that their EBMs did not come under the British 343- and 380-mm. seriously and for a long time.
                      3. +2
                        25 November 2025 17: 49
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Be that as it may, the Germans were very lucky that their EBMs did not fall under the British 343- and 380-mm.

                        It would be more correct to say that they were lucky in that they encountered Beatty's cruisers late in the evening.
                  2. +1
                    25 November 2025 14: 27
                    And yes, with a one-to-two ratio and qualitative superiority, at least half of the FOM should have been moored on the bottom of the North Sea.
                  3. 0
                    25 November 2025 15: 08
                    Actually, the entire second half of the fight consisted of this))) quickly to the house, to the hut)))
            2. -1
              25 November 2025 14: 56
              Considering the actual state of the forces, Scheer was incredibly lucky that Jellicoe didn't have time to deploy the compact formation into a single column. Had he done so, the situation for the Germans would have been dire.
              1. +2
                25 November 2025 17: 15
                Quote: TermNachTER
                Jellico did not have time to deploy the compact formation into a wake column.

                How come I didn't make it in time?
                1. -1
                  25 November 2025 17: 33
                  I didn't quite formulate the idea correctly. A more accurate phrase would be "at the moment of restructuring."
                  1. +1
                    25 November 2025 17: 50
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    It would be more correct to say "at the moment of restructuring."

                    Now I don't get the idea... :)
                    1. 0
                      25 November 2025 17: 55
                      If Jellico had completed the reorganization a little earlier - the ships would have lined up, the admirals would have seen the location of their ships and neighbors, the "Dreyr tables" would have entered operating mode - then the accuracy of the fire would have been much higher.
                      1. +3
                        25 November 2025 19: 14
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        If only Jellico had finished the rebuild a little earlier

                        And if Jellico had radars and VHF communication... :)
                        You can fantasize endlessly.
                      2. 0
                        25 November 2025 19: 31
                        If Beatty and Jellicoe had VHF radios, they wouldn't have needed anything else. The Germans were just lucky.
                      3. 0
                        30 November 2025 15: 55
                        I read on the DreadnoughtProject that the Dreyer Mk. 2 turrets were particularly sensitive to sudden changes in course and speed—their accuracy was extremely poor. Horace Hood's squadron even switched them off due to errors. Therefore, if Jellicoe had reorganized his fleet in a timely manner and the turrets had already "arrived at the meridian," their firing accuracy would have been much higher.
        2. +3
          25 November 2025 11: 52
          Quote: Illanatol
          It's hard to even remember what our domestic battleships and cruisers were known for.

          Do you want us to attack the entire high seas fleet?
          1. -1
            25 November 2025 13: 14
            Quote: Trapper7
            Do you want us to attack the entire high seas fleet?


            The "high seas fleet" had more pressing concerns than fighting the Russians.
            Well, for starters, at least they caught the Goeben. The fact remains: the money spent on building dreadnoughts turned out to be a waste of money. It could have been better spent modernizing the ground forces.
            1. +1
              25 November 2025 13: 59
              I actually regret that there wasn't a real battle between the Empress and the Goeben. It would have immediately become clear how adequate the armor/armament ratio is for both types of ships.
              Well, the Empresses are better protected.
              1. 0
                25 November 2025 14: 03
                Well, you can feel sorry for them, why not? Let's say our dreadnought won thanks to its performance characteristics. I strongly suspect the Germans were better trained and their morale was no worse. So what?
                How would this change the overall situation? How many ships of this class did the Germans have, and how many did Russia have? And could such battleship squabbles have fundamentally altered the armed conflict between two essentially continental powers?
                1. 0
                  25 November 2025 14: 12
                  Quote: Illanatol
                  I strongly suspect that the Hans were better trained and their fighting spirit was no lower.

                  A. Bolnykh, on the contrary, criticizes the Germans for poor preparation. And, given the battle near the Bosphorus, he's basically right.
                  And in general, could such showdowns between battleships bring about fundamental changes in the armed conflict between two, essentially, continental powers?

                  On the Black Sea, this would be a wonderful event.
                  1. +1
                    25 November 2025 14: 31
                    Sick?? You might as well have cited Bunich as an example.))
                    1. +1
                      25 November 2025 14: 59
                      Quote: Rakovor
                      Sick??

                      EMNIP, A.B. referred to Lorey
                    2. +1
                      25 November 2025 15: 11
                      What's wrong with Bolnykh, as popular science fiction? He expresses his point of view on various issues—if you don't like it, don't read it. But for general knowledge, it's perfectly acceptable.
                      1. +5
                        25 November 2025 17: 18
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        What's wrong with Bolnykh, as a popular science literature?

                        Gennadych is bad because he always, based on hindsight, “bends his fingers” in the style of “I knew better than anyone then”, without taking into account the fact that at the time described there was no complete picture, as in (conditionally) 80 years.
                        And this often has a negative effect on a fragile psyche. :)
                      2. 0
                        25 November 2025 17: 37
                        Well, his books are designed for that audience. The fact that he bends his fingers and adds a little of his own is significant, but it doesn't affect the events he describes.
                    3. 0
                      28 November 2025 13: 09
                      Bunich is a very good translator. His books on the history of the Russian Institute of Foreign Languages ​​are quite readable as popular science literature. Evaluating them from a historical perspective is a personal matter.
                      1. +2
                        28 November 2025 17: 41
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Bunich is not bad at all as a translator.

                        There are a few points...
                        Some of the literature is a double translation: NYAZ, Bunich's wife knew Polish well, and some of the books are edited translations from Polish.
                        He translated some of it himself, but, judging by the translation of Kennedy's "The Chase," the translation is simplified in places and overly literary.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        His books on the history of the RIF, as popular science literature, are quite readable.

                        A compilation of officers' memoirs with seamlessly drawn fragments without citing the original sources.
                      2. 0
                        28 November 2025 17: 47
                        1. His translation of Ludwig Kennedy is certainly not perfect, but I haven't seen any others. Tameiichi Hara's translation isn't the best either, but before Sidorov and Pinak came along, there was nothing in Russian at all. Well, with the exception of Voenizdat's "Midway."
                        2. On this site, they are doing the same thing now)))
                      3. 0
                        28 November 2025 17: 50
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        1. His translation by Ludwig Kennedy is certainly not ideal, but I have not seen any others.

                        You can't argue with that ...
              2. 0
                25 November 2025 15: 03
                Did the Goeben have any significant impact on the balance of power in the Black Sea? Not much. The Black Sea Fleet continued to blockade (shell) the Zonguldak coal basin. Convoys for the needs of the Caucasus Front continued to sail from the Azov-Black Sea ports. Certain problems, nothing more.
                1. +1
                  25 November 2025 15: 39
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  Did Goeben have any significant impact on the balance of power in the Black Sea?

                  In 1914, more than.
                2. +5
                  25 November 2025 15: 47
                  It's funny how things turned out – we start discussing an article about the 1881 shipbuilding program and end up discussing World War I. And this author hasn't even gotten to the end of the 19th century yet.
                  So by the end of the series we will be discussing the reality of destroying the Death Star with a single Rebel fighter.
                  1. +1
                    25 November 2025 16: 26
                    They even talked about World War II here))) that's life.
  6. +4
    24 November 2025 10: 48
    Andrei, good afternoon!
    This isn't the first time I've read in your work that the German Navy was considered one of the likely adversaries for the Peresvets. I haven't come across this information. Where did you get this information?
    In the documents I worked with, the Peresvets' mission was to counter the British fleet in the Pacific Ocean.
    1. 0
      24 November 2025 14: 00
      There was such a version, although it was quite controversial, like these armored misunderstandings themselves)))
    2. +2
      24 November 2025 20: 05
      Good evening, Alexey!
      Quote: rytik32
      I haven't come across this information. Where did you get it?

      I haven't seen any direct references to this. But the 1895-1902 program was, after all, designed to counter the Germans in the Baltic, and only secondarily for the Far East. At that time, there were no plans to base squadron battleships in the Far East; they were supposed to arrive there only if our situation there worsened. As Petrov writes
      When discussing the new shipbuilding program drawn up in 1895, voices were raised that the main tasks established in 1881 should be revised, focusing them on the Pacific Ocean.

      But no one heard these voices back then; the decision to base the EBMs in the Far East was made later. Meanwhile, our admirals viewed the Peresvets strictly as EBMs.
      1. +1
        24 November 2025 23: 57
        Overgunned or overrun? Those who can catch her won't be able to kill her, and those who can kill her won't be able to catch her? 10-inch guns and 18 knots of speed. To catch and sink even a single Peresvet, you'll either need to assemble a squadron of cruisers capable of catching her, or set a trap like the one the British did to Spee's squadron at the Falklands.
        1. +1
          25 November 2025 07: 15
          Quote: Not the fighter
          Overgun or overrun? Someone who can catch up won't be able to kill, and someone who can kill won't be able to catch up?

          The fact is that the Peresvets were roughly equivalent in firepower to the German battleships. Therefore, they didn't have to run from either of them.
    3. +1
      24 November 2025 20: 26
      hi Perhaps it was considered as an additional option. Who knows, the Peresvets would have had to remain in the Baltic, and then the German 240mm battleships would have been obvious victims. Simply for lack of other options. But I also mostly came across the version with the British second-class.
  7. +3
    24 November 2025 11: 25
    The main source of currency was grain, which, naturally, had to be exported from the most productive regions along the shortest route to the consumer – that is, from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean.

    Not just the shortest route, but the most cost-effective one. Gangut published an article about the vessels of the Novorossiysk port, along with a brief history of the port itself. It explicitly stated that alternatives to Black Sea ports were rejected due to their inaccessibility in winter and the additional costs associated with building grain silos to store grain during the off-season.
    1. +2
      25 November 2025 22: 14
      Quote: Alexey RA
      and the need for additional costs for the construction of grain storage facilities for the period of non-navigation.

      A key point, by the way. Having a sufficient number of elevators would have allowed not only the smooth export of grain through the Baltic, to northern countries where the main buyers were, but also the choice of convenient sales times. In our country, however, skimping on infrastructure led to a complete dependence on foreign speculators for sales. Essentially, the entire harvest had to be sold at once, otherwise it would rot.
    2. 0
      27 November 2025 16: 44
      Could I at least get the Gangut number? Thank you very much in advance.
      1. +3
        28 November 2025 12: 43
        Quote: dr5r
        Could I at least get the Gangut number? Thank you very much in advance.

        I was slightly mistaken - the article was about the entire fleet of the East-Kazakhstan Railway, and not just the Novorossiysk port.

        2003, issue 33.
        Section: Shipping and navigation.
        Saneev S.A. The naval fleet of the Vladikavkaz railway. P. 57.
  8. +2
    24 November 2025 12: 24
    Good afternoon.
    Dear Andrey, thank you for the new articles.
    And then suddenly—a sudden shift toward relatively fast (over 18 knots), high-sided ships with increased range, but with reduced armament, comparable to British second-class battleships. Why?

    I'll give one example based on French documents. In 1893, the battleship Jauréguiberry was launched, and Fyodor Karlovich Avelan, commander of the Mediterranean squadron, was present. Following the launch, several meetings were held. Admiral F.K. Avelan, the Russian ambassador to France, A.P. Morenheim, M. Carnot, and M. Lagane attended. Various issues were discussed, but two stand out.
    The first opportunity, in the future, is technical cooperation in the design and construction of battleships and cruisers.
    The second discussion was of a French 1890 design for a "cuirasses de croisière"-class ship. Armament consisted of two to four 240mm guns, eight 160mm guns, or ten to twelve 140mm guns for operations in the Far East. Long range and endurance were necessary due to the French lack of coaling stations and in case of a blockage of the Suez Canal. This design was subsequently revised.
    It's quite possible that these discussions had an indirect influence on the Peresvet project, but with the battleship Tsarevich, everything is essentially clear. Considering that in 1897, Admiral F.K. Avelan became Acting Administrator of the Naval Ministry.
    1. +1
      24 November 2025 14: 03
      Whatever the reasons for this misunderstanding in the RIF, the Pobeda could have been built in 1898 based on the realities of the war with Japan. A proper battleship was needed—a Sevastopol or a Potemkin—not this madman's ravings.
      1. +1
        24 November 2025 14: 08
        Quote: TermNachTER
        Whatever the reasons for this misunderstanding in the RIF, the Pobeda could have been built in 1898 based on the realities of the war with Japan. A proper battleship was needed—a Sevastopol or a Potemkin—not this madman's ravings.

        I wouldn't call these ships a misunderstanding; everything depends on how the Peresvets will be used in combat.
        1. +2
          24 November 2025 14: 40
          Were there any chances that they wouldn't be put in line? As for me, there were no chances.
          1. +2
            24 November 2025 14: 54
            Quote: faiver
            Were there any chances that they wouldn't be put in line? As for me, there were no chances.

            If the 1st Pacific Fleet had been equipped with Borodino-class battleships, this option would have been entirely possible, but it never happened. Although there are serious doubts that such a division would have been agreed to.
            1. +3
              24 November 2025 20: 28
              Quote: 27091965i
              In the case of the 1st TOE being equipped with Borodino-class battleships, such an option would have been entirely possible, but this did not happen.

              I'm afraid it would have turned out like with the BMD in the First Chechen War. Does it have a turret? That means it's a tank!
              However, the Peresvets, albeit with reservations, were suitable for linear combat.
              1. +1
                24 November 2025 21: 16
                Good evening.
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                However, the Peresvets, albeit with reservations, were suitable for linear combat.

                Dear Ivan, I do not deny this, and the Russian Navy did not have enough ships in the Far East to implement the French theories of squadron combat.
          2. +3
            24 November 2025 20: 12
            Quote: faiver
            were there any chances that they wouldn't be put in line?

            Pardon me, but why remove them from the line?:)))) In terms of defense, they were fully-fledged battleships, just with weakened main battery.
            1. -1
              24 November 2025 22: 09
              And you certainly don't take the weakened armor into account?))) That's complete nonsense)))
              1. 0
                25 November 2025 07: 16
                Where was it weakened, O Naval History Expert? laughing
                1. -3
                  25 November 2025 11: 15
                  If you could read, you would compare the bookings and not ask stupid questions)))
                  1. 0
                    25 November 2025 11: 39
                    Compare it to what? :)))) Go ahead, I want to hear it:))))
                    1. 0
                      25 November 2025 12: 02
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Compare it to what? :)))) Go ahead, I want to hear it:))))

                      For example like this...
                      1. +3
                        25 November 2025 12: 12
                        So, weakened in comparison with the battleships laid down three years later? :)))
                      2. +2
                        25 November 2025 12: 13
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        That is, weakened in comparison with the battleships laid down three years later?

                        Pobeda and Retvizan entered service simultaneously... :)
                      3. +3
                        25 November 2025 12: 40
                        We are talking about the Peresvet project, it was developed in 1895, and Retvizan in 1898. What does commissioning have to do with it?
                      4. +2
                        25 November 2025 12: 47
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        We are talking about the Peresvet project, this is a development from 1895.

                        So, you are suggesting a comparison with older EBRs (Poltava, Sisa, Navarin)?
                        The extremities are "problematic for everyone", but the citadel defense of the "normal" EBR will be stronger, don't you think?
                      5. +2
                        25 November 2025 12: 59
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        So you suggest comparing with older EBRs

                        Well, the opponent is proposing to build obviously obsolete ships instead of Peresvets. request
                      6. -1
                        25 November 2025 17: 43
                        The opponent suggests not building obviously defective or unnecessary ships. What to build is a secondary question. And I've already said that, in my view, the Potemkin is optimal. If that's impossible, although I see no reason why, then slightly improved Sevastopols.
                      7. +4
                        25 November 2025 15: 15
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        So you are suggesting to compare

                        I propose to indicate in relation to which battleships the armor of the Peresvets was weakened at the time of their design, that is, at the maximum in 1895.
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        but the citadel defense of "normal" EBRs will be stronger, don't you think?

                        I can't find it. How is Navarin's 406mm steel-iron better than Harvey Peresvet's 229mm, combined with bevels?
                      8. -3
                        25 November 2025 12: 48
                        And did the Retvizan appear out of nowhere?))) Boom and fall from the sky?))) And I thought it was designed on orders from Russia.
                      9. +1
                        25 November 2025 17: 05
                        I'd like to add something. A comparison of the armor schemes of the Peresvet and Potemkin. Solid holes and solid armor. If you add that Krupp armor is 15-18% stronger than Harvey's, the picture becomes even more bleak.
                      10. 0
                        25 November 2025 12: 46
                        Is three years some kind of outrageous timeframe? Other ships took five or six years to build.
                      11. +2
                        25 November 2025 12: 51
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Is three years some kind of excessive period of time?

                        I told you
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You need to know at least a little something about the fleet of the RYaV era

                        "Don't withdraw into yourself, mechanic - they'll find you there in no time." (c)
                        So, in comparison to which battleships did Peresvetov have weaker armor? :))))) "Name, sister, name!" (c)
                      12. -3
                        25 November 2025 12: 52
                        If you can't read, you can look at the pictures; they're quite clearly drawn.
                      13. +4
                        25 November 2025 13: 43
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        You can see it in the pictures

                        The pictures show a ship that was designed three years later than Peresvet:))) What does it have to do with the 1895 design?:)))) What does it have to do with the 1895 vision of adequate EBR protection?:))) And, finally, and most importantly, what undeniable advantages in artillery combat does the Retvizan's protection provide compared to Peresvet's?:)))
                        Okay, you were saying something about the Potemkin, like it was such a cool battleship, perfect for replacing the Peresvet. Well, in 1898, the Potemkin's armor was very close to that of the Peresvet, with only a minimal difference.
                        Peresvet's belt armor was 229 mm thick throughout the battles of the Korovitsky and Moscow Region, while Potemkin's was worse: 203-229 mm. However, its armor against the turrets was slightly better: 203 mm versus 178 mm. Potemkin's advantage was the increased thickness of its upper belt: 152 mm versus 102 mm, that's true. However, Potemkin's hull ends were also exposed; the decision to cover them with 50 mm of armor was made much later.
                        Potemkin has an inch more vertical turret armor, but on Retvizan this was considered unnecessary, so her turret and barbette armor is practically equal to Peresvetov's.
                        But you have to understand that Potemkin is not the same age as Peresvet either:)))
                        Essentially, Peresvet differed little in terms of protection from Potemkin and Retvizan. The changes there were MINIMAL and certainly didn't affect the ship's ability to hold its own. Especially against the Japanese, who lacked adequate armor.
                      14. 0
                        25 November 2025 15: 34
                        I repeat, when ships take 5-6 years to build, three years doesn’t seem like a huge gap.
                        You somehow forget that the Potemkin had Krupp armor, so 203-229 mm is certainly better than the Peresvet and Oslyabya.
                        In addition, the Potemkin has a belt 10 cm higher, and above it, a completely normal 152 mm, and not 102 mm, which did not protect even from 152 mm.
                        "Oslyabya" held the line well))) although not for long)))
                      15. +1
                        26 November 2025 15: 33
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The pictures show a ship that was designed 3 years later than Peresvet:

                        But the Pobeda was laid down later, and most of the project's shortcomings were recognized. It was even proposed to equip the Pobeda with 12-inch turrets, but after careful consideration, this was rejected as technically difficult to implement in this project. So, in all fairness, the Pobeda (or whatever you call it) should have been laid down under a different design—that of a proper squadron battleship. Work on the Retvizan project, with Kramp's participation, was already in full swing at that time, and this design could have been laid down.
                        The problems of the "Peresvets" in armor are the huge area of ​​unarmored side, narrow lower belt and weakened (102 mm. Harvey) upper one. In reality, even in a battle with the Asama, the Peresvet would most likely have been battered and crippled beyond recognition due to the vulnerability of its unarmored side, weak upper belt, higher rate of fire of the Asama's 8" main battery guns, and a larger number of auxiliary artillery. Therefore, although the Peresvets could form part of the battle line of the armored vehicles and fight, look at the state they came out of that battle in. Well, the fate of the Oslyabya at Tsushima should also be kept in mind - there, too, the 102 mm plates of the upper belt could not withstand and opened a hole "the size of a gate." Plus, "coal guzzlers" and the lack of speed superiority over the new Japanese battleships. Of course, in 1895, such a project for the Pacific Fleet seemed quite rational, until details of the Japanese shipbuilding program became known. Therefore, for the Peresvet and There are no particular complaints about the Oslyabya. The complaint is that the Pobeda was laid down in 1898 to the same design. I think this happened for a simple reason: the metal and structures for this ship were ordered well in advance, so they decided not to rework the design and build it as before. The inertia of the technological process simply played a role.
                        But calling the Peresvets equal in armor to the Retvizan and Potemkin... forgive me, that's an oxymoron. Comparing their armor schemes, it's obvious even to a schoolchild – the Peresvets have huge areas of unprotected unarmored sides; they're longer and taller, making them a perfect target with a largely unarmored hull. Shells will fly across the entire side projection and find many unprotected spots, and the upper armor belt will be easy for some of them to penetrate. This isn't the case with the Potemkin and Retvizan. They're more compact; they (especially the Retvizan) have lower sides, higher main and secondary armor belts of 152 mm, which easily withstood shells, and the casemates are noticeably better armored.
                        So the Peresvets simply existed because they were built, deployed in the battle line, and fought, but alas, they were of no particular use against battleships (they simply couldn't penetrate them), nor were they capable of operating independently against Japanese armored cruisers. If the Borodinites had arrived at Artur before the Russian Revolution, the Peresvets would have been quite capable of holding their own against Japanese armored cruisers in the general line, as their combat value was roughly equivalent to theirs.
                        As large, beautiful, high-sided ships, they were perfectly suitable for "colonial wars" and displaying the flag. But for war with a strong and stubborn opponent – ​​no.
                        Another problem was that the specifics of our shipbuilding program were well known in both London and Tokyo, so they built their fleets to meet the challenges they faced against us. Their battleships were clearly superior to ours—faster, better armored, armed with far superior high-explosive shells, and their gunners were trained for long- and medium-range combat. Their high-speed wing was (relatively) identical, had a squadron speed of 20 knots, and could operate independently as a single unit.
                        But in the Pacific Fleet, we didn't have a fleet, but a collection of prototypes. This reflected the general chaos in the upper echelons of the Empire's power. One continuous chaos and a triumphant Witte.
                      16. +4
                        26 November 2025 18: 06
                        Good evening! hi
                        Unfortunately, I can't agree with most of your points. But they will be discussed in future articles in this series, so I won't prejudge them...
                        Quote: bayard
                        In reality, even in a battle with the Asama, the Peresvet would most likely have been beaten and disfigured beyond recognition.

                        Let's recall the Battle of Koreyskoye, when the VOK clashed with Kamimura. Neither Rossiya nor Gromoboi were better protected than the Peresvet—they were worse protected. They were equally high-sided. And neither suffered damage that would have seriously impacted their combat effectiveness. Artillery, yes, but most of it was disabled due to malfunctions, not combat damage.
                        Quote: bayard
                        So the Peresvets simply existed because they were built, they were put into battle lines, they fought, but alas, they were of no particular use in combat with battleships (they simply couldn’t penetrate them).

                        Strictly speaking, the 12-inch gun didn't really penetrate anything at those distances either.
                      17. +1
                        26 November 2025 19: 09
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Good evening!

                        hi
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Let's remember the fight in Korea - when VOK clashed with Kamimura.

                        I should review it in more detail. But as far as I remember, our cruisers accepted the battle on the retreat to Vladivostok, because they clearly couldn't withstand a direct fight, and the rendezvous with the squadron from Arthur clearly fell through. And the brunt of the Japanese fire then fell on the oldest and slowest, the Rurik, which was turned into a flaming sieve, but continued to fight. In principle, if our cruisers had accepted the battle instead of retreating, the same fate would have awaited them all. Although these cruisers were fairly large ships with a good cruising range and a rated speed of 18,5, 19,5, and 21 knots (for the Gromoboi), but... it seems as if they had simply converted civilian ships, made casemates for guns in the sides, and slapped on partial armor belts. In a word, they were quite good raiders (from a distance they could be confused with an ordinary steamship), but they were not at all suitable for squadron combat.
                        The Japanese battleships of the 2nd rank (as they classified themselves) were firstly faster, secondly they had better armor (here we have a comparison with the Peresvets and recalling your previous publications), more numerous auxiliary artillery and ... a more rapid-fire 8" main battery artillery. That is, in a battle with the Peresvet, the Asama would have suffered less from the fire of our cruiser (as it was called during construction) and would have inflicted enormous damage with each salvo on the unarmored parts of the Peresvet, well, simply because it is practically impossible to miss such an unarmored colossus. And every hit and hole means FIRES, these are killed and wounded crew members, this is the distraction of part of the crew to fight for survivability, these are knocked out guns and crews. The 8" main battery of the Asamites is also a so-so caliber, for an unarmored The Peresvet's sides are terrifying. Especially the high-explosive shell. And considering the difference in shell quality between ours and the Japanese. So, all other things being equal, the Asama, even if it hadn't sunk the Peresvet, would have gutted it like a chef would a turtle. And at any moment, if the battle was going badly for it, it could have disengaged using its speed advantage.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Strictly speaking, the 12-inch gun didn't really penetrate anything at those distances either.

                        Well, if the new type of shells had been produced on French equipment for the Russian Navy, who knows how the course of certain battles would have unfolded. After all, the shells produced on this equipment on the eve of WWI were quite good (and some argue, very good). I think even 40-caliber 12-inch guns could have easily penetrated Japanese armor with such shells, and high-explosive shells would have done some damage too, thanks to the significantly greater power of the charge. But as the law of the sandwich goes, everything in that war for the Russian Empire unfolded in the worst possible way. This doesn't add or subtract from the advantages or disadvantages of the Peresvets. They were simply ships for a completely different war.
                      18. +2
                        26 November 2025 20: 09
                        Quote: bayard
                        But as far as I remember, our cruisers accepted the fight on the retreat to Vladivostok, since they clearly couldn't withstand a direct battle, and the rendezvous with the squadron from Arthur clearly fell through. And the brunt of the Japanese fire was borne by the oldest and slowest, the Rurik.

                        Absolutely not. The Japanese cut off our cruisers from Vladivostok, and we had to break out. Rurik was hit very quickly, and then the remaining two cruisers engaged the four Japanese cruisers, trying to distract them from Rurik. In fact, the main battle was fought with a 2:1 odds against us. The battle began at 5:05, and Rurik was hit at 6:28. Iessen ceased his attempts to assist Rurik at 8:10, even though the battle for Rossiya and Gromoboi ended at 9:50.
                        Quote: bayard
                        In principle, if our cruisers had accepted the battle and not retreated

                        Quite the opposite—Russia and Gromoboi actually accepted the fight. They tried to lure the Japanese away from the crippled Rurik, and when that failed, they returned to it and tried to cover it, taking up a position between Rurik and Kamimura's cruisers.
                      19. +1
                        26 November 2025 21: 29
                        I know little about this battle; it should be a separate article. But if the battle lasted so long and with such a poor balance of power, how come the cruisers suffered so little damage? The Japanese were quite good shots; they had superior numbers, superior speed (albeit slight), and our cruisers had a casemate-style main battery arrangement, meaning only two 8" and eight 6" guns could be fired at one side, compared to four 8" and seven 6" on the Japanese cruisers. That our cruisers' guns didn't cause any significant damage to the Japanese isn't surprising, given their superior armor, but to fail to inflict serious damage on our two cruisers in such a long battle, in which the Japanese simply ran out of shells... that's surprising and somehow odd. It would be nice to have a proper analysis of this battle, addressing all these uncertainties. Especially since what I've read about it (and that's the Rurik's account of the battle) doesn't provide a complete picture of the other ships. It was an interesting and, without exaggeration, heroic battle, which surpassed many in duration and intensity, yet somehow remains in the shadow of that strange and unsuccessful war.
                      20. +3
                        26 November 2025 21: 35
                        Absolutely and absolutely. But that would require taking on a huge VOK course, which I'm not mentally prepared for yet. :)
                      21. +2
                        27 November 2025 10: 23
                        Quote: bayard
                        So, all other things being equal, even if the Asama had not sunk the Peresvet, it would have gutted it like a cook would a turtle.

                        It's quite the opposite. The 8" Asam guns were fundamentally incapable of penetrating the 229mm main guns and turrets of the Peresvets. The Russian 10" guns, however, could penetrate the 152mm armor of the Asams at approximately 30 cable lengths. Therefore, in a one-on-one encounter, with all other factors being equal (i.e., the quality of the shells, the rangefinders, and the skill level of the gunners), the Peresvet would eat the Asam without a trace.
                        As for,
                        Quote: bayard
                        The main battery gun placement feature of our cruisers was casemate

                        The whole point is that at the time described, single installations, no matter tower or deck, were faster-firing and more accurate than twin-gun installations.
                        First, because both guns in the turret were served by a single elevator. Its efficiency determined the rate of fire. To overcome this limitation, British engineers placed part of the ammunition directly in the turrets. Fortunately for the Japanese, not a single "golden hit" occurred that would have proven the detriment of this decision.
                        The second was caused by the fact that adjacent guns, when fired, interfered with each other's aiming, and there were no "Jenny couplings" yet capable of leveling this out.
                        This is precisely why all leading shipbuilding powers (except perhaps the Americans, but that’s a different story) were, in one way or another, fascinated by single-gun turrets.
                      22. +1
                        27 November 2025 10: 48
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Therefore, in a one-on-one meeting, with "all other things being equal" (that is, the quality of the shells, rangefinders, and the level of training of the artillerymen), the Peresvet will eat the Asama without choking.

                        Good afternoon, Ivan Valerievich! I appreciate your comment. good
                        But if we return to reality, then, as far as I remember, Andrei Nikolaevich wrote in his series that our 10-inch shells were of better quality than 12-inch ones)
                        The point is that even in real history, Peresvet wasn't a "whipping boy." He certainly wouldn't have backed down before Asama.
                      23. -1
                        30 November 2025 02: 33
                        The problem is that there are six "Aces" and three "Peresvets." With a 2:1 ratio, the situation doesn't seem so clear-cut. Two "Aces" easily tore apart the "Ushakov."
                      24. +1
                        30 November 2025 22: 28
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Two "Asams" tore apart "Ushakov" without any problems.

                        The forces there were too unequal.
                        More interesting and fair (based on displacement) would be 2 Ushakovs to 1 Asamu.
                      25. -1
                        1 December 2025 00: 29
                        Why aren't they equal? ​​Two Asams versus an Ushakov. The Ushakov has the same armor as the Peresvet, two main caliber turrets, 254mm guns like the Peresvet, but less speed.
                      26. -1
                        1 December 2025 00: 40
                        Why aren't they equal? ​​The Ushakov has the same armor as the Peresvet, and the same 254mm guns as the Peresvet. It's just slower.
                      27. +2
                        1 December 2025 00: 47
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The Ushakov has armor like the Peresvet.

                        The main belt is shorter, and there is no upper belt. There are no slopes behind the main belt. The SK is not protected by armor. This is much weaker armor.
                      28. -2
                        1 December 2025 11: 41
                        The belt is shorter but thicker: 254-203 mm. There's no need for bevels; with 254 mm, the coal pits are quite sufficient. The turrets and barbettes are roughly the same as those on the Peresvet. Most importantly, the main guns are four 254 mm guns, like the Peresvet, because if you count the 152 mm, the Peresvet has no chance at all – against the Peresvet's five, in a broadside, the Japanese would have 12 to 14. Specifically, in this case, there are 13 152 mm barrels.
                      29. -2
                        2 December 2025 00: 31
                        Why is that? Peresvet fans claim he could easily handle an Asama or even two, precisely because of his advantage in the GK. We have the Ushakov – with exactly that kind of GK.
                      30. -1
                        27 November 2025 13: 03
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Everything is exactly the opposite. 8" "Aces" in principle could not penetrate the 229mm GBP and turrets of "Persvet".

                        Did the Japanese ever try or set themselves the task of penetrating the armor belt? They didn't even set such a task for their battleships. They didn't even have such shells - only high-explosive and "armor-piercing-high-explosive" (remember the characteristics of their armor-piercing and super-sensitive fuses of their shells. Moreover, relying on a fight at medium ranges, it was extremely difficult for that time to conduct targeted and selective fire. They relied on the destruction of the unarmored side and other unprotected parts of the ship with extremely powerful high-explosive shells. The goal was to cause destruction and fires, to knock out as much of the crew as possible, not to allow the crew to fight for survivability, to reduce the effectiveness and rate of fire of the enemy ship with these factors and the concussion of combat crews and to kill it WITHOUT SINKING. And our "Peresvetites" simply have a monstrous part of the side that is not armored and not protected, a very high forecastle and a casemate battery (most of it is not protected, there you can at least look at the armor diagram to understand the future fate of the ship in a stubborn fight, and in order to You can verify this by looking at photographs of Peresvet tanks after each battle—they're riddled with holes, even from shrapnel. And the 102 mm of Harvey armor in the upper belt and casemates isn't enough either. And in that war, it wasn't the low penetration of Japanese shells (they were actually heavier than the Russian ones) that often saved them from being penetrated, but rather the Japanese's ultra-sensitive fuses—the shells would explode right on the armor... and sometimes this would be downright fatal, with entire armor plates cracking and falling off.
                        Moreover, numerous holes in the unarmored bow led to water sloshing in waves and surf at speed—the bow sank, taking on water, and speed dropped. Remember the Japanese descriptions and pictures of the blazing Rurik—it didn't sink, it BURNED. And it kept fighting. And its armor belt wasn't penetrated, not that the Japanese even tried.
                        And regarding the better and higher rate of fire of casemate guns, I know (more space, better organized ventilation, the ability to have sufficient ammunition in the casemate itself to ensure maximum rate of fire. In addition, you yourself noted that the Japanese, following the British science, simply kept part of the ammunition (shells without propellant charges) in the turrets themselves, as well as in the barbette loading chamber. That is why, until all this ammunition in the turret and loading chamber was spent, the Japanese showed a very high rate of fire. Well, and actually the quality of the Japanese shells themselves - extremely powerful high-explosive shells for that time, which even exploding on armor and without damaging it caused serious concussions in the crew and the gunners' combat crews. So it was against such an enemy, even with a smaller caliber of his guns, but with a better / better thought out armor protection, and with a speed advantage of 2 knots (at least), our high-sided cruisers (that's what they were called when they were built) were in for little good.
                        But on the other hand, I would (again, "would")















                        The Borodinets were built on time and arrived in Arthur before the start of the Russian Nuclear War (which was technically impossible given the design chosen), and if they had received normal modern shells from the French line acquired and tested in the Russian Empire, the Peresvets, operating with them in a single battle line, could have fought well and been useful in a squadron battle, since their 10" had a chance to sometimes penetrate the armor of Japanese cruisers.
                        Well, the 6" gun in the forward forecastle of the Peresvets is just plain stupid. To design something like that, you'd have to have never gone to sea.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        This is precisely why all leading shipbuilding powers (except perhaps the Americans, but that’s a different story) were, in one way or another, fascinated by single-gun turrets.

                        Yes, I remember this on the "Fairway", and this is the choice of a weak salvo in favor of accuracy and rate of fire.
                        But there was another path, chosen by the Germans – firing half volleys. And they demonstrated very good accuracy at a very high rate of fire. For us, such a method would definitely have been useful during the Russian Nuclear War. But such a method did not yet exist at that time.
                        In short, they built Peresvets for something else, put them in the line because they existed and no others existed (that's why they were called "battleships"), fought as best they could, but their capabilities were limited. And the shells were bad.
                      31. +3
                        27 November 2025 13: 32
                        Quote: bayard
                        They didn't even have such shells - only high-explosive ones.

                        Don't make things up. They also had armor-piercing shells loaded with black powder and tight fuses. At least at the beginning of the war.
                        Quote: bayard
                        And our "Peresvets" have a simply monstrous part of the side that is not armored and not protected

                        Just like the Rossiya and the Gromoboi. But the Asamoids couldn't handle them, even with double superiority. But one-on-one with the Peresvet, with one hand...
                        Quote: bayard
                        "Rurik" - it didn't sink

                        The Rurik was unlucky. When it was built, they didn't know how to make high-quality carapace shells, and that's where the shell landed, destroying the steering gear. The Peresvets didn't have that problem.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Well, the 6" gun in the forward tank of the Peresvets is just incomprehensible nonsense.

                        A common practice at the time. Want me to list French cruisers with the same feature? Forget cruisers—the Germans' battleships had 18 main guns, two forward, two retreating, and at least six more that could only fire at narrow angles.
                        They didn't go to sea either?
                        Quote: bayard
                        chosen by the Germans - half-volley firing

                        Even after the Russian Air Force, half of the German main guns were casemated.
                        Quote: bayard
                        the shells were bad

                        We are talking about ships after all...
                      32. 0
                        27 November 2025 15: 04
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Quote: bayard
                        the shells were bad
                        We are talking about ships after all...

                        Which were hit by these very same shells.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Don't make things up. They also had armor-piercing shells loaded with black powder and tight fuses. At least at the beginning of the war.

                        So this explains the remarkable survivability of the Vladivostok cruisers and the conclusions after the Battle of the Yellow Sea that Japanese shells couldn't penetrate armor and inflicted little damage. The Japanese did, indeed, use armor-piercing shells at the beginning of the war, which, with their relatively thin walls, often simply shattered against the armor, preventing the "tight fuse" from detonating. So in that battle, our cruisers were lucky that the Japanese didn't use high-explosive shells. But they did use them at Tsushima. And do you remember the effect? ​​What fires immediately broke out on our battleships?
                        I was referring to the hypothetical battle between the Asama and the Peresvet, specifically based on the Japanese use of high-explosive shells. That is, when the emphasis was on destroying the unarmored portion of the ship and the resulting fires. At the beginning of the war, high-explosive shells were simply not used—they decided to try their own armor-piercing shells. And this allowed our squadron in the Yellow Sea to endure the battle, not lose any ships, and avoid major fires. For the same reason, the two Vladivostok cruisers also survived the unequal battle. The Japanese armor-piercing shells proved ineffective (or not at all).
                        But in Tsushima it was completely different.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        But one on one with "Peresvet" with one hand...

                        No, not with one hand, and most likely without sinking, but with incapacitation. Remember the effect at Tsushima. Remember who (by the way) sank the "Shisoya" and "Navarin". As far as I remember, those were Kamimura's cruisers, which managed to destroy (albeit with superior numbers) fully-fledged battleships with their 8" HE shells. And other old battleships got their fair share of damage from them, too.
                        The point is that in a medium-range fight, the Peresvet couldn't penetrate the Asama's armor and couldn't inflict critical damage, and its weak high-explosive shells couldn't cause significant destruction or serious fires with their explosive force. Moreover, the Peresvet's fire density was lower. Therefore, it would have sustained more damage, more intense (due to the high-explosive effect), resulting in fires and numerous breaches. These wouldn't be critical to the ship's survivability, but they would have accumulated, the crew would have suffered concussions, and the Peresvet's firepower would have been reduced as the battle progressed due to the accumulation of these factors. Moreover, the Asama, with its speed advantage, could always break the distance and escape... say, to put out a fire or fix a malfunction and return to the battle once it was fixed. The Peresvet didn't have that option. Therefore, if the battle went well for the Japanese, the Peresvet could simply lose combat capability while remaining underway or at least afloat. If the battle went well for the Peresvet, if it closed at a range of 30 cables or less, it could penetrate the armor of the Japanese cruiser (2nd-rank heavy cruiser) and inflict serious, if not critical, damage. However, the Japanese knew the capabilities of our guns and tried to keep the distance just over 30 cables. Thanks to their superior speed and the excellent rafting of Kamimura's detachment, they almost always succeeded. And about "cutting up like a chef a turtle" I mean precisely the combination of all these factors and the experience of the Asamites fighting the Shisoi and Navarin. And let's not forget the Japanese demonstrated excellent shooting accuracy, especially at Tsushima, but also before that, in the Yellow Sea. It's just that in the first phase of the war they chose the wrong shells for the battle that could guarantee success.
                        Unfortunately, the Russian Empire was completely unprepared for that war in almost every way. Even though it had all the necessary capabilities, abilities, resources, chances, and time.
                        Moreover, if they had to engage Japanese cruisers under a different scenario or course of the war, the Japanese always had a choice: accept the fight or evade. They could choose a head-on engagement, a short, converging one, or a stubborn, parallel one. Their fleet was built as a coherent combat unit, with a distinct advantage over our "prototype fleet."
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        A common practice at the time. Would you like me to list French cruisers with the same feature?

                        The fact that they copied someone else's stupidity doesn't change the fact that it was stupid. Everyone quickly abandoned this, and even the Peresvetskys themselves had their guns removed for coastal defense and for the needs of the fortress's land defense.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        The Germans had 18 SK guns on their battleships, two running guns and two retreating guns.

                        Well, if there were two, then apparently they weren't in the bow itself. And even then, they probably regretted it at the first good wave, when the bow was washed over. And once they realized the full harm of such stupidity, they stopped jabbing artillery into the sides, raised the casemates to the deck, and thus solved the problem of regularly flooding the ports in good waves. But this understanding came with experience and practice, while a 6-inch gun in the bow... that's already exotic for landlubbers.
                      33. +3
                        27 November 2025 16: 23
                        Quote: bayard
                        Remember who (by the way) sank the "Sisoy" and "Navarin"

                        Destroyers?
                        Quote: bayard
                        I'm talking about the combination of all these factors and the experience of the battle between the "Asamites" and "Sisoy" and "Navarin".

                        You are trying to pull an owl on a globe.
                        The Peresvets were better armored and had faster-firing artillery. In a one-on-one fight, the Asama would also take damage. Moreover, a 10" would inflict far more damage than an 8". To ensure a hail of fire and all the other things you so vividly described, the Japanese would need to close the distance, as their 8" guns weren't particularly accurate.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Here is a 6" gun in the stem... this is already exotic for land-based thinking.

                        Really! And where, may I ask, was such a solution ever used on land?
                        This is precisely a maritime practice. Outdated, but perfectly nautical.

                        Colleague, I appreciate your imagination, but don’t pass it off as fact. Yes
                      34. -2
                        27 November 2025 18: 17
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Quote: bayard
                        Remember who (by the way) sank the "Sisoy" and "Navarin"
                        Destroyers?

                        Who fought them before and led to the fact that their anti-mine artillery was unable to repel the attacks of the destroyers?
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Peresvets are better armored

                        Of course not, the Peresvets simply have a thicker main armor belt. But it's also narrower and shorter. But their upper armor belt is weak and couldn't withstand an 8" shell at angles closer to normal. And the quality of this armor wasn't the best (as its shelling tests showed, but they still installed it). But the most important thing is that the large/overwhelming part of Peresvet's side projection is not protected by armor at all. But this entire unprotected part of the side projection will catch enemy shells... and "gratefully accept" them, bringing destruction, fires, death, concussions and injuries to the crew, and the effect of these constant hits and penetrations will increase. Simply because the ship is very tall and it's difficult to miss it. And it's even more difficult to hit its armored parts. Simply by the theory of probability, most of the shells that hit the ship will penetrate it, because they will hit parts unprotected by armor.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        had more rapid-fire artillery.

                        Well, let me disagree with that. It has a lower rate of fire with shells weighing about 100 kg versus 225 kg. (I hope I'm not mistaken) 10" shell. Here, all things being equal, the rate of fire of the Peresvets will definitely be lower than that of the Asams, whose shells are 2+ times lighter. And the Asams have more auxiliary artillery - 7 x 6" per side versus 5 x 6" for the Peresvets. That is, more shells will fly at the Peresvets in any case, they will find unprotected parts of the ship more often, and since the Asams have a higher and thicker upper belt, and the side itself and casemates are better armored, the Asams will suffer noticeably less damage for several reasons at once. But the Peresvets will receive and take everything that flies at them, there will be many more hits and holes (it is simply easier to hit because of its size, the Japanese have more guns, and the Peresvet has many more vulnerable spots). This is the cumulative effect we observed after every squadron engagement between these ships. They emerged from battle like a complete sieve, with traces of fire and significant crew losses. There's no point in comparing a second-class battleship, designed and optimized for combat with a strong opponent, with the Peresvet, which only looks good in pictures and was only good for representational purposes and impressing the natives.
                        As for the Vladivostok cruiser-raiders, they were essentially ocean liners/steamships, reinforced with partial armor and with artillery in side casemates. The Germans built similar ships before WWII, too, only hiding the guns inside casemates behind the ports. Externally, from a distance, they looked like an ordinary steamship, and only at medium or even close range could the victim understand what they were dealing with. The fact that these were simply converted civilian steamships is also indicated by the placement of the masts on them—in front of the conning tower... and such huge ones at that. Like, "We can do it under sail, too."
                        Incidentally, Russia didn't stop there, and most of the Dobroflot ocean-going steamships were converted into... raiders. Their guns were lighter—120 and 75 mm—and were stowed in the hold during peacetime. So, raising the guns and converting a steamship into an auxiliary cruiser/raider was quick and easy, right out to sea.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Moreover, 10" will cause much more damage than 8".

                        Of course, the Peresvets' main guns are decent and far more powerful than the Japanese 8" shells. But... the quality and explosive content of such a shell. Even with a 10" armor piercing shell, the Asama's main belt couldn't penetrate it from 30+ cable lengths. And the upper belt withstood impacts well. And the Japanese ships' slopes were significantly reinforced, so even a 12" armor piercing shell could only penetrate such a barrier at close range. And the Asama, with its speed advantage, wouldn't let anyone get that close.
                        So it turns out that the Asama is better protected, it's faster, has more main and secondary guns, a slightly higher rate of fire, and the quality of its shells and the explosive content in them are significantly higher. Therefore, the expected damage to the Peresvet will be greater and will mount increasingly rapidly during a fierce battle. Because fires and crew concussions will reduce the rate of fire and effectiveness of this beautiful Russian raider. The Asama, while receiving fewer hits and suffering less damage from them, can, if necessary (extinguishing a fire, troubleshooting, etc.), temporarily break the distance, disengaging from combat, but then returning again. In other words, the pattern and nature of the battle will be dictated by the Asama for a whole host of reasons.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Their eight-inch guns weren't particularly accurate.

                        But it was one of the Asamites that scored the decisive hit on the Oslyabya. At least, that's what a number of sources claim.
                        Although I agree that the Japanese chose the 203mm caliber hastily. If they had chosen the 9,5" caliber (the British had such a gun), then the 240mm caliber for such ships might have been optimal. But as practice has shown, this was enough for them.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        And where, may I ask, was such a solution applied on land?

                        That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is that the ship's architecture and the placement of the artillery were conceived as if by a child playing with boats... for the first time. Any sailor knows how a ship's bow burrows into an ocean wave, and even into a sea wave during a storm. And to deliberately make a port hole in the stem for a gun with a very limited field of fire... Any sailor without an education would have grabbed the young talent by the ear and put it on peas for such immature creativity. And the French (as you claim) cobbled together a whole bunch of these. And ours copied them. But having suffered with this stupidity, they simply removed these guns for the needs of coastal defense of their base.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        This is precisely maritime practice.

                        I suspect there was simply no one to spank that teenager, and he was probably a royal or someone close to that. So no one could object.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        This is precisely a maritime practice. Outdated, but perfectly nautical.

                        Which has never shown itself to be positive.
                        The Americans at least sometimes piled a secondary caliber turret on top of the main battery turret - like for chase fire... but in the stem... Have you really never asked yourself, "What kind of vegetable is this, sticking out here, and who would notice such an absurdity?"? Not even once?
                        Here is my guess about a child's drawing of a royal person... or even a girl... perhaps closer to the truth than yours
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        This is precisely a maritime practice. Outdated, but perfectly nautical.

                        Have you ever fulfilled a madman's whim?
                        And what about watching such madness?
                        And what kind of heir did we have growing up in the Russian Empire, because of whom the entire empire would later be drenched in blood, shame, and disgrace, losing two wars, suffering three revolutions, and directly and indirectly (due to the consequences) killing tens of millions of its citizens? And he never felt any remorse, like her... conscience.
                      35. +3
                        27 November 2025 18: 49
                        Quote: bayard
                        "Anti-mine" artillery failed to repel the attacks of the destroyers?

                        Firstly, it was night. Secondly, the secondary armament of the old battleships was an order of magnitude inferior to the Peresvets.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Of course not, the Peresvets simply have a thicker main armor belt. But it's also narrower and shorter.

                        Actually, the discussion was about comparing the Peresvets with old Russian battleships like the Navarin.
                        But if you want to compare it with "Asama"...
                        The Peresvet's waterline length is 130 meters. The length of the 229mm GBP is 95 meters.
                        The Japanese cruiser is 134 meters long. The 178mm citadel is 86 meters long. The bows are armored, of course, but they offer protection against medium-caliber high-explosive shells at best.
                        So the Russian main gun could easily reach the boilers and engines, but the Japanese...
                        Quote: bayard
                        But... the quality and content of explosives in such a projectile.

                        I recall you yourself set the condition: "all other things being equal." That is, the quality of the shells, the number of rangefinders, and the gunners' training are all equivalent. Or did that become unprofitable for you?
                        Quote: bayard
                        Although I agree that the Japanese chose the 203mm caliber hastily. If they had chosen the 9,5" caliber (the British had such a gun)

                        There wasn't))
                        It was 234 mm or 9.2 inches. But the British, at least at that time, didn't sell them to outsiders. So either 8 or 10" like on the Garibaldi. Yes, that would have been better.
                        Quote: bayard
                        That's not what I'm talking about.

                        You simply wrote nonsense, but you're not ready to admit your mistake. That's why the whole company is out of step, and you're the only one in a white coat. feel
                        Quote: bayard
                        Have you really never asked yourself, "What kind of vegetable is this, and who would notice such an absurdity?"? Not even once?

                        Unlike you, I know why this happened and what they were trying to achieve. Yes, this decision is outdated and currently incorrect, but the people who made it knew full well how "a ship's bow burrows into the waves during a storm," and also that no idiot would even think of firing in such weather.
                        Quote: bayard
                        The Americans sometimes piled a secondary caliber turret on top of the main gun turret - like a chase gun...

                        What the hell are you talking about? What the hell is this "chasing fire"?
                        Quote: bayard
                        Here is my guess about a child's drawing of a royal person... or even a girl... perhaps closer to the truth than

                        You should have a snack...
                      36. -1
                        27 November 2025 19: 50
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        First of all, it was night.

                        And until the night there was a battle, including and mainly with Japanese cruisers.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Actually, the discussion was about comparing the Peresvets with old Russian battleships like the Navarin.
                        But if you want to compare it with "Asama"...

                        I compared it specifically with "Asama".
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        The Peresvet's waterline length is 130 meters. The length of the 229mm GBP is 95 meters.
                        The length of the Japanese cruiser is 134 m. The 178 mm citadel is 86 meters.

                        Look at the armor area of ​​each and compare the area of ​​the unarmored side of both. Who will catch more shells and what will they do to them?
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        The Russian main gun could easily reach the boilers and engines, but the Japanese...

                        But he never made it. But the Oslyabya seems to have taken a double hit from two 8" guns, as some researchers assumed, because at the moment of the hit and the formation of a hole in the upper belt, "like a gate," one of the Asamites was firing at the Oslyabya.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Quote: bayard
                        But... the quality and content of explosives in such a projectile.
                        I recall you yourself set the condition: "all other things being equal." That is, the quality of the shells, the number of rangefinders, and the gunners' training are all equivalent. Or did that become unprofitable for you?

                        And how will you achieve this?
                        The Russian ships had old, thick-walled, cast-iron, and yet "lightweight" shells with very little explosive content. The Japanese, on the other hand, had thin-walled, elongated shells that weighed significantly more. If Nikolai II hadn't been greedy and had purchased the new type of shells, a trial batch of which was made and they were "very good"... perhaps we would have been just as good in terms of shell quality and achieved much more in artillery combat. But we weren't given that chance. The required number of ships according to the new design weren't built on time, and there were so many other reasons, of which there were far too many in that strange war. The fact was that the impact of Japanese high-explosive shells had a colossal effect, even without penetrating armored sides. And even if ours sometimes penetrated, they either didn't explode, or their effect from behind-the-armor fire was limited. I imagined a hypothetical battle between the Asama and the Peresvet, with the Asama firing high-explosive shells at medium range. And all the factors associated with that. The 10" guns could find the Japanese cruiser's weak points, but it was harder for the Japanese to find the Peresvet's weak points for their shells. The Japanese didn't need to penetrate the main belt, because they weren't capable of doing so. They fired at the unarmored side and the entire lateral projection, and the inevitable result was destruction, fires, wounded, killed, and shell-shocked. They couldn't sink them, but they could easily batter them, torment them with fires, and damage their artillery. But for our gunners, the only possible hit was a "golden shot" from a 10" armor-piercing shell from a 45-caliber gun. Nothing else could take the Japanese, and a "golden shot" doesn't happen in every battle.
                        In all likelihood, such a battle would have ended with both sides disengaging—the Japanese, due to their ammunition being completely depleted, and the Peresvet, due to the extensive damage it sustained and the inability to pursue the retreating Japanese cruiser due to the difference in speed. Our ship would have taken longer to repair.

                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Unlike you, I know why this happened and what they wanted to achieve. Yes, this solution is outdated.

                        I know they wrote about this too. But they wrote nonsense. Besides, the "Peresver" had two to four VK guns capable of firing straight ahead. Why reinforce them with another one with such a... very strange placement? Because in practice, such guns were usually removed as quickly as possible and the port sealed tightly to prevent water penetration. And to fire at fleeing enemy transport during a pursuit, two to four SK guns were enough. I also read those explanations and they seemed like complete kindergarten to me.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        You should have a snack...

                        I don't use it. But it's hard to find any other explanation for it than the idiocy of someone who can't be refused... And how such idiocy is often realized... just look at the repairs and restoration of the St. Petersburg forts, funded by the Ministry of Defense for the sake of my daughter's whim. Now they organize some kind of games there for the amusement of young idlers. There was plenty of that back then, too.
                      37. +3
                        29 November 2025 14: 52
                        Quote: bayard
                        And how will you achieve this?

                        It was you who suggested this, not me.
                        Quote: bayard
                        In addition, the Peresver had 2 to 4 VK guns that could fire straight ahead.

                        They couldn't... without risking damaging their own structures.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Seal the port tightly so that water doesn't get through

                        That's odd. On the Asamoids, the lower row of side guns really couldn't fire in even the slightest rough sea. But for some reason, you don't have any such complaints about its designers.
                        Quote: bayard
                        because at the moment of impact and the formation of a hole in the upper belt "like a gate" someone from the "Asamites" was firing at the "Oslyaba".

                        Excuse me. But if some aviso had been firing at the Oslyaba at that moment, would you have attributed the holes to 120mm shells?
                        It’s obvious that 8" couldn’t give such an effect!
                        Quote: bayard
                        I compared it specifically with "Asama".

                        Well, not exactly...
                        Quote: bayard
                        Remember who (by the way) sank the "Sisoy" and "Navarin"

                        Quote: bayard
                        I don't use it.

                        In that case, I apologize, but... reread your comment. Either your fingers were tangled, or... well, that's not a good sign.
                      38. -1
                        29 November 2025 16: 24
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        It was you who suggested this, not me.

                        That was about something else – a hypothetical one-on-one fight. And yes – the quality of the ammunition matters too. Sometimes critically.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        They couldn't... without risking damaging their own structures.

                        And what could prevent pursuit on parallel courses? Are you trying to justify the heresy of French shipbuilders and our adopters of this nonsense? These guns were removed primarily for coastal defense (as were others, by the way), as the least valuable and, what's more, harmful. Because the fact that the bow port was flooded by waves had already become obvious. That's why I write that only a landlubber with no experience of seafaring could have devised such a gun placement. But one influential enough to insist on such a decision and implement it. Why you are trying to defend this heresy is surprising to me, on the one hand, and not so surprising on the other.
                        I'm interested in the experience of that war as a whole—to identify all the reasons for the RIF's current state and the Empire's governance as a whole. Such engineering anomalies only highlight the abnormality of what happened before and during that war.


                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        The lower row of side guns on the Asamoids really couldn't fire in even the slightest rough sea. But for some reason, you don't have any such complaints about its designers.

                        So, we weren't really looking at Asamid-class ships, but rather Peresvet-class ones, which were built for a completely different purpose. They might have been good as a colonial ship, but they weren't suited for warfare against a powerful enemy or for line-of-battle combat. Their upper armor was too weak, their architecture was irrational for a combat ship, their "overweight"—and all their other shortcomings. But they looked impressive, they were a beautiful ship, and they were perfectly capable of displaying their colors. But these ships had to fight a fleet built in the best shipyards, by the best shipbuilders of the time, with ships optimized for combat, well-trained crews and gunners, and armed with very powerful high-explosive shells. For ships with huge unarmored sides (most of their sides), this was a very unpleasant event. In short, it was experience—"how not to build ships." And that's exactly the conclusion reached in the Real Life Empire after analyzing that war. True, they went to the other extreme and built battleships with all four turrets arranged in a linear fashion. Again, they overdid it.

                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        It’s obvious that 8" couldn’t give such an effect!

                        Almost every ship in the Japanese line then fired at the Oslyaba, fortunately for them it presented a convenient, stationary target. The previous hits could have damaged that plate as well. But this is definitely not "my opinion" about the paired hits of 8" shells on the same plate, these are the assumptions of those who took part in that battle and those who saw the "Oslyabya" from the side. This is mentioned in several sources. 102 mm. Harvey against even a high-explosive shell of that caliber, this does not seem to be too serious. Especially for a paired hit. Those who assumed this drew conclusions from what they themselves saw the capabilities and power of those shells. This was their (eyewitnesses') assumption, I can only say that such consequences were quite possible, especially if someone else had hit that plate the day before. And let's not forget about the test firing of 6" (!!) shells at the armor plates manufactured for the "Oslyabya" at the firing range. They split it. The entire batch was declared defective ... but it was nevertheless installed on the ship. Perhaps only the Oslyabya had such quality armor, but it was the Oslyabya that perished so quickly and unexpectedly.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Quote: bayard
                        Remember who (by the way) sank the "Sisoy" and "Navarin"

                        I don't remember the details of their deaths very well (it's not my area of ​​professional interest; I don't make money from this), but I do remember that during the day they fought Kamimura's cruisers. And the 12-inch guns of the old battleships didn't particularly faze the Japanese. Night attacks by destroyers finished the job, but before that, the battle was specifically with cruisers.

                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Either your fingers were tangled, or... in general, it’s a bad symptom.

                        Are we being rude again? Not for the first time. Where does all this pathos come from, Sailor?
                      39. +2
                        29 November 2025 17: 48
                        Quote: bayard
                        That's why I'm writing that only someone could have come up with such a placement of the gun. dry-land mind unfamiliar with the practice of navigation

                        Money for fish again?
                        Once again, where has this solution been applied on land?
                        And why did you even think that the Peresvet's guns were flooded with water? I've never seen anything like that.
                        You are trying to justify the heresy of French shipbuilders.

                        I'm not making excuses for anyone. I'm challenging your truly heretical assertion about the designers' "land-based thinking."
                        Quote: bayard
                        So, it seems we weren't looking at "Asamid"

                        You claimed that these "Asamoids" inflicted fatal damage on the old battleships. I replied that, firstly, this isn't a fact, since we don't know the exact extent of the damage. And secondly, the Oslyabya, no matter how you look at it, is better armored and armed than the Navarin.
                        The fact that the old men were sunk by destroyers in the dark proves nothing. Because:
                        a) fending off destroyers with 37mm and 47mm Hotchkiss guns is for optimists. b) the Navarin itself was sunk by a cluster of mines dropped in the dark in front of its bow. Such a surprise would have been enough to take down an entirely undamaged dreadnought.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Then they fired at the Oslyaba one by one

                        The damage to the Oslyabya in that battle has been extensively discussed, including on our website. Therefore, it's quite clear that the Japanese battleships were the ones responsible for the critical hits.
                        Quote: bayard
                        I don't remember the details of their death very well.

                        Then why are you making unverified statements?
                        Quote: bayard
                        Are we being rude again?

                        and it never even crossed my mind
                        Not to mention I already apologized. But you really did write some strange things.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Here's my guess about a child's drawing of a royal person... or even a girl... I'm probably closer to the truth.
                      40. -1
                        29 November 2025 19: 40
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Once again, where has this solution been applied on land?

                        Once again, I'm talking about the landlubber type of mind who simply can't imagine a ship on a large ocean wave, who hasn't seen the bow of a ship or vessel being washed over by a wave, who can't even imagine how much a ramming wave can create—after all, it wasn't even the big waves that washed over them, but the spray from the ramming waves at speed. This is simply practice. Anyone who has sailed at sea knows these peculiarities and would never allow such a thing to happen when designing.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        And why did you even think that the Peresvet's guns were flooded with water? I've never seen anything like that.

                        I've seen one, specifically about that same chase gun on the Peresvet ships. I can't remember the author anymore, it was a long time ago. And there was a description of everything that happened with that gun, and how they were happy that it was removed for coastal defense and the port was sealed off. And there was about the "highly intelligent" purpose of this gun, as planned, and how the very first crossing "across two oceans" made both the captains and officers of the ship think about how to get rid of it. And with what joy they gave it up to the shore. I don't remember, maybe Bushkov, maybe someone else, it's been around for about a quarter of a century. The book is probably at home (not fiction, something like "History of Russian Battleships", where there is a history of each ship. But my library is currently beyond my access, so I can't find it and quote it. And I'm not interested in it now.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        I dispute your truly heretical assertion about the "land-based thinking" of the designers.

                        Let's call it amateurish, because the very first time it was put to sea, practice demonstrated the absurdity of such an idea. And they abandoned it (this weapon) precisely as absurd. It's completely useless in combat; the Peresvet-class raider is useless—neither has the required range nor is it fast enough for pursuit. And chasing merchant ships is far more convenient on lighter and faster armored cruisers or on auxiliary raider-cruisers, which are specifically designed for this purpose. And don't call the Peresvet-class battleships—during its design and construction, they were called nothing but a cruiser. They rebranded it as a battleship when they realized they were lagging behind the Japanese in ship construction and that by the time of Arthur, we would have too few ships capable of fighting the Japanese. That's when, for greater importance, they were promoted to "battleship" class. They weren't designed or built for squadron combat, not for intense battles with more powerful ships. They were supposed to defeat any armored deck or even armored cruiser, and outrun battleships. But that's not how it turned out. As a battleship, she proved weak (in every way, especially against the Japanese), and as a cruiser, she was too slow and inefficient. But there were no other options, so she fought alongside Poltava-class ships and foreign-built battleships. She emerged from the Battle of the Yellow Sea looking like a complete sieve, and the photographs (and, I think, even the footage) were simply painful to look at.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        "Oslyabya" is, no matter how you look at it, better armored and armed than "Navarin".

                        Well, the Navarin, the Siso... the Japanese simply called them "small battleships" and didn't consider them a serious threat. Besides, they really were small, half the size of the Peresvet in side view, and they were much more difficult to hit due to their size. And why compare a cruiser with a "small battleship"? You should compare them with enemy ships. Which were built not for cunning "colonial wars," but for war with a powerful enemy—specifically, the Russian Navy. They have ships for combat, we have a "collection of prototypes."
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        The damage to the Oslyabya in that battle has been extensively discussed, including on our website. Therefore, it's quite clear that the Japanese battleships were the ones responsible for the critical hits.

                        No one knows for sure who hit the ship, only analysis, speculation, and eyewitness accounts. I wrote that there could have been several such hits on that plate, or just one that left a crack. And the power of a 6" high-explosive shell exploding on that plate, especially with a pair of hits, was already quite sufficient to split and tear off the plate. Moreover, these very plates (of the upper belt) were cracked by 6" shells during testing. The plates themselves were deemed defective, but they were nevertheless installed on the ship, because the military was rushing for supplies and didn't want to wait another year for a new batch. So why be surprised that the plate cracked from an 8" pair of hits (as some eyewitnesses suggested), if a 6" cracked it during testing? How it actually happened, no one will say, but a simple analysis and comparison show that an 8" shell could well penetrate (armor-piercing) or split and even rip off (high-explosive, especially with a pair of hits) the upper armor belt of the Oslyabya, and therefore any other Peresvet. But the Peresvetets could only hope for a "golden hit" in an equal fight (one on one), because the upper belt and casemates of the Asamites were much better armored - both in thickness and in armor area. In a one-on-one fight "to the last shell", the Peresvet would most likely emerge battered like after the battle in the Yellow Sea, or even worse, but most likely staying afloat and even under its own power. And the Asama ... would emerge as from any real battle - moderately battered, but without critical damage. If it weren’t for the “golden shot”, which doesn’t happen in every fight.

                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        But you really wrote strange things.

                        No more bizarre than some "chasing battle" weapon. These guns were removed from the battleships first, and without any regret. And even during the attempt to break through to Vladivostok (via the Yellow Sea), they weren't put back. I simply looked at photographs of the completely fantastic French battleships of that time... there were too many strange and pretentious things there. And fashion, a passion for all things French, cost us dearly in that war. Besides, in the Russian Empire at that time, a very... peculiar "boy" ascended to the throne. Because of him, the Empire ceased to exist.
                      41. +1
                        30 November 2025 02: 38
                        It is difficult to explain to someone who has never seen a real storm how the forecastle, at a height of 10 m, dives into an oncoming wave and it goes along the deck and the hatches of the holds.
                      42. -1
                        30 November 2025 05: 20
                        Well, he's a representative of that very same land-based mentality, or the armchair expert who knows about the Navy from books. I told him that even a sea trip on a civilian dry cargo ship is enough to convince oneself of the utter heresy of a bow gun. And he said, "Where was one like that ever used on land?" request Well, that's how it is here. And if you look at the books, well, there you have it, it says - "guns for chase firing." And the fact is that after the transfer to Arthur, they constantly wanted to remove them from the ships (their captains and officers, and the crew as a whole), but the admiral-general and other staff members wouldn't let them "so as not to weaken the already not very well-armed ships" ... they simply counted them (the guns) as pieces. But when it was necessary to strengthen the coastal defense, they were so eagerly dismantled and given away ... yes, I bet more than one accordion was torn up in joy ... It's just that in the history of these "battleships" (I don't remember the author) there was a story about the ordeal because of these guns in the bow.
                        Well, Sailor hasn't read anything like that. Despite the fact that he's the Elder.
                        Here, the side casemates were flooded by the waves, and we suffered for a long time until the next ships moved all the artillery and even the casemates to the upper deck level. Even after that, we had to install water deflectors (or whatever they're called) to keep the main battery gun turrets and barbettes from getting flooded.
                        I myself am a purely land-based person, but without a fleet, no geostrategy is possible, and for Russia's revival as a Great Country and Empire, a fleet is necessary. And it must be Correct. It must not repeat the mistakes of the past and be guided by the prospects of the future.
                      43. 0
                        30 November 2025 23: 09
                        And for the revival of Russia as a Great Country and Empire, a Navy is necessary. And it must be Correct. It must not repeat the mistakes of the past and be guided by the prospects of the future.

                        Golden words!
                        How many firewood did our leadership and the leadership of the RIF, first of all, break at the end of the 19th century.
                        The most frustrating thing is that our navy followed a logical path, and we could have built a dreadnought at least 7-8 years before the British! We were literally one step away from a dreadnought! Look, the armored frigate "Admiral Lazarev," the battleship "Ekaterina II," the armored cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov." They were just a little bit closer, but... everything was ruined by the head of the Russian Navy himself, General-Admiral Grand Duke A.A., who single-handedly imposed a design from the French naval school (the "Tsarevich"), alien to our shipbuilding.
                      44. +1
                        30 November 2025 17: 12
                        Quote: bayard
                        I don't remember, maybe Bushkov's

                        I have no more questions.
                      45. 0
                        3 December 2025 13: 51
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        maybe Bushkov's

                        Well, of course, in Bunich's "History of Russian Battleships." I got the names mixed up. I bought that book back in the early 90s.
                      46. +1
                        3 December 2025 15: 12
                        Quote: bayard
                        Well, of course at Bunich's

                        If you're talking about Igor Lvovich, the difference, I must say, isn't huge.
                        I haven't read this book, but... I've been chatting with colleagues on various websites. In short, the person who wrote the specifications for the Peresvets was Chikhachev. And it's pretty hard to accuse him of a mythical "landlubber mentality." He certainly has more ocean voyage experience than the famous folk historian.
                        So the problem of flooding the chase gun is insurmountable only for Bunich, you and our fake long-distance telegraph operator.
                      47. 0
                        3 December 2025 16: 31
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        If you're talking about Igor Lvovich, the difference, I must say, isn't huge.

                        I don't have a very high opinion of him either, but the book (in the format of a military pocket reference, which is what interested me) concisely covers the history of each battleship, from conception and design to construction and service. Basically, it's a reference for general information. I disagree with his conclusions at the end of the book, but then again, that's always how he was.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        The problem with flooding the running gun is insurmountable only for Bunich, you and our fake long-distance telegraph operator.

                        No, this gun was a problem for the crew, the captain, and the gun crew. And I don't recall a whole section in this book or any other dedicated to the Peresvets' ordeals with this gun, citing memoirs, reports, accounts, and opinions of contemporaries. I agree with the opinions of those who served on Peresvets and wrote about this problem from personal experience.
                        But the history of the navy and its ships isn't my area of ​​professional interest. It's more for casual reading and familiarization (previously) and for analyzing the overall situation in the Russian Empire of that period, including through the histories of these ships. The histories of specific ships sometimes reveal very interesting facts and details necessary for analysis. And the details regarding this weapon also provide a very interesting insight into the naval and military-political thought of that era. The mistakes made and the motives behind such exotic decisions also provide valuable insights into the events of that time.
                        I have neither the time nor the interest to delve into insignificant details. The details of the Pacific Fleet shelling story, which Andrey analyzed in such detail, lead to some very interesting conclusions, especially if you look at the big picture rather than examining the individual pieces. As a military man (even if only in the distant past) with operational-strategic thinking, I value the big picture and the role of details within it, analyzing incorrect decisions and finding the right solutions for the given conditions and opportunities. The Russian Nuclear War was called "Mock War" in military academies around the world—everyone learned from it. This is useful both for mental gymnastics and for using its experience to understand the development of subsequent conflicts, the development of the historical process as a whole, and the role of specific individuals in the course of events, especially at key moments in history.
                        And "boats"... well, they're like "tanks" - many people find them interesting. Some study them and draw conclusions, while others just play with them. I'm not interested in playing with them.
                      48. +1
                        3 December 2025 08: 57
                        Quote: bayard
                        Once again, I am talking about the land-based type of mind, which simply cannot imagine a ship on a large ocean wave, and has not seen how the bow of a ship or vessel is flooded by a wave.

                        Let's be clear:)))) It was the Russian Empire, with its "land-based thinking," that created truly ocean-going armored cruisers, perfectly suited to the world's oceans in terms of seaworthiness. The length and height of the Rurik and Rossiya were chosen based on the wavelength of ocean waves, so that the ships would not lose speed in rough seas, a problem that shorter warships were prone to.
                        The Peresvet's chase gun was essential for its cruising role. That is, a ship overtaking a steamship (and we were talking about fast British steamships, called "mail steamers," if I remember correctly) needed to be able to fire at them a bit with a decent-caliber gun.
                        Quote: bayard
                        I've come across this very same running gun on Peresvet tanks. I don't remember the author anymore, it was a long time ago.

                        It's very simple – the sea isn't always rough :)))) And when it is, the casemate is closed with special shutters, which, generally speaking, are designed to be watertight. If this is a problem, then not only the forward gun suffers, but also the entire onboard battery. After all, the guns in the forward casemates were carefully positioned so that they could fire forward, so that the full fury of the elements could be vented on them.
                        Quote: bayard
                        The raider from "Peresvet" is no good - neither the required range, nor sufficient speed for pursuits.

                        The speed is quite sufficient—in theory. Few merchant ships could maintain 18 knots for any length of time. As for the lack of range, that's unfortunately a miscalculation on the part of the designers, but I wouldn't blame it solely on the land-based thinking of the Russian Empire—England and elsewhere had plenty of miscalculations, too.
                        Quote: bayard
                        No more strange than some weapon "for a chase fight"

                        It's very simple: if Peresvet is catching up with someone or moving towards them, the gun is needed for sighting in. With the current rate of fire, the 10-inch guns were of little use for this.
                      49. 0
                        3 December 2025 13: 50
                        Andrey, I know the history of these cruisers' development, and I know the rationale behind the gun's placement. But that was a misconception. No amount of sealing or waterproofing the gun port worked, and this was especially true during the transition to Artur—no amount of sealing was effective. As far as I remember, this is from Bunich's "History of Russian Battleships" (not Bushkov, of course; I got the name wrong). And I've also seen other sources characterize this gun placement as a curiosity, absurdity, and downright stupidity (which we weren't the only ones to suffer from).
                        Regarding sighting in this gun during chase firing, this is also problematic, and precisely because the amplitude of the roll is greatest at the ends of the ship and least near the center of gravity. This is precisely why they tried to place the SC guns closer to the center of gravity. Otherwise, the gun would either rise up or fall down along with the ship's bow, making accurate firing and, especially, sighting in impossible or extremely difficult. This was also encountered and quickly identified in practice. Therefore, to be on the safe side, after arriving in Arthur, they wanted to remove these guns, and they did remove them to strengthen coastal defenses.
                        The low-lying side casemates were also, of course, flooded, but the pitching amplitude there is at least minimal. Conclusions were also drawn in all countries and navies, and all artillery was raised to the level of the upper deck.
                        So, regarding this weapon, I stand by my opinion that it's the product of the "land-based thinking" of people unfamiliar or barely familiar with navigation, or simply with the practice of navigation. And the fact that the French were the first to use this placement, and we copied it, doesn't justify it. Fortunately, abandoning such a weapon and sealing the port in the bow was easy, and that's what was generally done.
                        As for the necessity and usefulness of such fire in an extremely narrow firing arc, that's also frivolous and a decision made by theorists, not practitioners. It's much more correct to pursue on a parallel course, or tack while firing such fire, so that the side guns can fire. That's how it's always been done in practice.
                        Overall, the high forecastle did ensure good seaworthiness, and perhaps no one would have said a bad word about these ships if they hadn't had to fight in a squadron battle in a wake column. They weren't designed for that at all, and that's why they looked absolutely terrible after such a fight. In principle, they could be called the prototype of future battlecruisers. And for the "trade killer" service, they would have been quite good... if not for their low speed and gluttonous engines. Otherwise, they were large, beautiful, high-sided, and had good habitability. True, already on the eve of the Russian Empire, the Russian Empire devised a different type of raider: the Dobroflot ocean-going transports, high-speed (around 19 knots) with 120 and 75 mm guns on board, which were indistinguishable from ordinary steamships, were faster than others, had greater endurance, and good habitability. And they were many times cheaper than any cruiser. This type of raiding was later adopted by the Germans in WWI and WWII.
                      50. +1
                        3 December 2025 17: 11
                        Quote: bayard
                        But this was a misconception.

                        Like many other decisions in all fleets of the world.
                        Quote: bayard
                        No sealing or waterproofing of the port of this gun worked, and this was encountered especially during the transition to Arthur - no sealing measures helped.

                        Port sealing is a fairly common problem, and it's by no means unique to chase guns. And it can't be said that it was particularly problematic on them.
                        Quote: bayard
                        As far as I remember, this is from Bunich's "History of Russian Battleships"

                        Just keep in mind that Bunich is pure journalism, and the author, to put it mildly, is prone to mystification. Under no circumstances should you cite him—what he writes could be fact, fiction, or a deliberate distortion of reality.
                        Quote: bayard
                        And in other sources I have come across descriptions of this placement of the weapon as a curiosity, absurdity and simply stupidity.

                        Nevertheless, this is a completely justified design for its time.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Regarding the sighting in of this gun during running fire, this is also problematic, and precisely because the amplitude of the roll at the ends of the ship is greatest, and least in the area of ​​the center of mass.

                        The pitching amplitude plays no role here. The gun was fired in its "low" position, that is, when the ship, having reached the limit of its roll (or trim, in our case), seemed to freeze. And this point isn't particularly dependent on the pitching amplitude; it just needs to be properly adjusted—that's all. But this must be done, again, no matter the pitching motion.
                        Quote: bayard
                        We also encountered this and discovered it in practice very quickly.

                        In the words of Bunich:)))) To whom there is 0 faith
                        Quote: bayard
                        Conclusions were also drawn in all countries and fleets and all artillery was raised to the level of the upper deck.

                        Look at the altitude of the SC placement on the same British missile cruisers.
                        Look closely at the location of the lower bow casemates of the Peresvets. They were also supposed to provide firing straight ahead and were exposed to the waves even more strongly than the forward gun - it is still located higher by an entire deck.
                        Or take the "Bayan" - when on a course perpendicular to a large wave, 4 of its 8 guns had exactly the same problem.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Well, regarding the necessity and usefulness of such fire in an extremely narrow firing sector, this is also not serious and is also a decision made by theorists, not practitioners.

                        There were no theoreticians in the Russian Navy. Decisions were made by admirals who had sailed beyond their ranks.
                        Quote: bayard
                        It is much more correct to conduct pursuit on a parallel course, or to tack while firing so that the side guns can fire. This is what has always been done in practice.

                        Firing by tacks is, excuse me, completely unacceptable—not only does it shorten your speed, but it also completely ruins your gunnery. What's important is the change in range and bearing (VIR and VIP), and tacks constantly alter these. That's why, even in WWII, when ships began to evade artillery fire by maneuvering, gunnery accuracy dropped.
                        As for parallel courses, this isn't always possible. Simply put, at sea, it's difficult to determine the course of the vessel you're pursuing, and therefore, to set a parallel course. Moreover, cruisers are generally limited in time; for them, quickly catching their prey is a matter of survival.
                        Overall, yes, chase guns didn't prove their worth. But it's important to understand that they had their merits. They weren't abandoned because they were inherently bad, but because for relatively light ships, chase guns were mounted on the forecastle, and those with turrets learned to aim from them.
                      51. 0
                        3 December 2025 17: 51
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Quote: bayard
                        But this was a misconception.
                        Like many other decisions in all fleets of the world.

                        To be honest, I only saw such a weapon at Peresvet and at first I couldn’t believe my eyes, it turned out that this was just a fad.
                        As for Bunich as an author, I didn't take him seriously at all, but that book was formatted as a "military reference," which is what won me over. And essentially, it gave me an overview of Russian battleships. Basically, it's a brief history of each ship, complete with a photograph. But I came across that gun in a few other sources later, when I had the internet, a computer, and plenty of free time. And it wasn't much of a problem anyway—they moved the guns to coastal batteries, patched up the hole in the port, and forgot about it.
                        The fact that water also flooded into the low-lying side ports also became clear in practice, and after some suffering they decided not to fool around anymore - by WWI they were no longer building ships with such a location of side batteries (but a lot of them fought in it).
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Overall, yes, the driving guns did not justify themselves.

                        That's exactly what I'm talking about. We were convinced that it was ineffective, incorrect, and problematic, and we removed it with relief and joy.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Shooting in "tacks" is, excuse me, completely unacceptable - not only do you shorten your speed, but you also completely ruin your sighting.

                        Well, I'm saying this in the heat of the moment, based on my experience of shooting direct fire and not from a crab gun.
                      52. +2
                        3 December 2025 19: 19
                        Quote: bayard
                        The fact that water was also pouring into the low-lying side ports also became clear in practice, and after some suffering, we decided not to fool around anymore.

                        That's right. But look at the location of the Good Hope's lower-tier forward gun ports. Incidentally, the cruiser was laid down in 1899, and this despite the fact that the British considered their cruisers, among other things, to be ocean defenders and pursuers of enemy cruisers. And... well, that's it.
                        But we wouldn't accuse the English of thinking on the land, would we?
                      53. 0
                        3 December 2025 19: 33
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But we wouldn't accuse the English of thinking on the land, would we?

                        Here they blamed themselves, drawing on the wave at full speed.
                        This is apparently one of those 10 units (6 + 4) that the British built in response to rumors about our "Diana-class" cruiser-raiders being laid down? Apparently, from those 4 units, which with 30,000 hp engines produced 24+ knots?
                      54. +1
                        4 December 2025 15: 13
                        Quote: bayard
                        Therefore, to be on the safe side, after arriving in Arthur, they wanted to remove these guns, and they did remove them to strengthen the coastal defense.

                        Colleague, the Peresvet's chase gun was indeed among the first to be removed... along with the side guns. But the Pobeda's chase gun wasn't the last to go.
                        You yourself constantly emphasize that Peresvet is primarily a raider. And such a gun is precisely useful for raiding. But when they started returning artillery to the ZhM, raiding was no longer in the plans. That's why they didn't return them. Well, there weren't enough guns.
                      55. 0
                        4 December 2025 16: 58
                        Yes, even upon arrival in Arthur, it was clear that there would be no raiding due to the extreme shortage of battleships in the Pacific Fleet, so they were immediately assigned to the battle line. It's not right for an armored ship with the speed of a modern battleship to chase merchant and mail steamers; for that, there are much faster armored deck ships, which have no use in a squadron battle between armored ships, but reconnaissance and raiding are exactly what they are for.
                        The very concept of these ships was flawed – larger and more expensive than contemporary battleships (the Poltavas, for example) and with the speed of the Mikasa… It's a shame to send one like that on raiding missions (there aren't enough battleships), and in a squadron battle, they're far less useful than the Poltavas. And in combat, they'll absorb twice as many shells as the small Poltava, simply because their lateral projection (silhouette) is so large, making them easy to aim.
                        When they were designing them, they had no idea what kind of battleships the Japanese would order. But when they learned the specifications of the Mikasa, the "cockroach race" began.
                        It's good that Andrei touched on the financing of the shipbuilding program in the Russian Empire in his new article (I haven't finished reading it yet), but this should always be paralleled with Japan's financing of its program and the participation (and the extent of that participation) of British and American banks. There was already an article on this topic with figures on Japan's financing, and those figures are impressive – they financed it very generously and helped with everything. The problem for the Russian Empire was that the country was then led by completely incompetent people. I'm talking about the very top – the Stupid Tsar and the Prime Minister-Spy. And those who would have handled all the problems with the organization, planning, and financing of our programs almost "playfully" (i.e., in a working order) were pushed away from the court and were not allowed to see the Tsar. And these were, after all, associates of Alexander III. That's precisely why that very "Nikolka's kingdom" began during that period. It's like the failure of public administration in the USSR after Khrushchev's gang seized power. As one old Japanese billionaire put it at an economic forum in Moscow in the early 1990s: "Until 1955, you were VERY, VERY SMART, and then you became like five-year-olds." You couldn't have said it better. And in the Russian Empire in the second half of the 1890s, roughly the same thing happened: the associates of Alexander III were removed and isolated from power, and under the Stupid Tsar, first the Minister of Finance, and then the Prime Minister, Spy Polusakhalinsky, received almost unlimited power (due to his influence on the Stupid Tsar). So, the meaning and course of those events can only be understood in the context of this knowledge.
                        If the Republic of Ingushetia hadn’t had any problems with financing the preparation for the Russian Nuclear War, the money would have been taken from the same drawer as the money for the construction of the Trans-Siberian Railway, the CER and the Circum-Baikal Railway.
                        And so, just to record the fact that the ships were not built on time, and therefore the war at sea was lost, the shells were bad because the Stupid Tsar (actually Witte) did not give money for good shells of the new model, the fairways were not deepened because "there is no money, but you hang in there", there is money for the construction of the port and the city of Dalny, but this is for TRADE (in fact, for the Japanese, where Witte prepared all the supplies for them), there are no guns not only for the coastal batteries of the naval base, but even the ships are supplied with delays (not enough machine tools ... damn, and buy / order on time, with the start of the shipbuilding program?) and so on ad infinitum, right down to "they did not think to transfer by sea at least a couple of additional infantry divisions to strengthen Kwantung" ... If we examine individual puzzles scattered in a microscope, and not the picture as a whole, it will be child's play. In the sandbox, playing "tanks," "boats," and "soldiers." A holistic view of the events and their causes is needed; then it will become clear why such consequences occurred and who was the driving force behind them, often implicitly, secretly, and behind the scenes. A sufficient distance from those events allows for such a review and analysis to be much more comprehensive than, say, examining contemporary events. But even contemporary events will take on a completely new light after examining the events of those bygone days. The Russo-Japanese War is too interesting and multifaceted to neglect its study and skim over the surface.
                      56. 0
                        6 December 2025 10: 13
                        Quote: bayard
                        larger and more expensive than contemporary battleships (the same "Poltavas")

                        Colleague, at least don't whistle at me! I'm not a terminologist.
                        "Poltava" is not the same age as "Peresvet".
                        And the high price of the latter is explained simply.
                        1) They are, indeed, larger (as any new project is in relation to the previous one), and shipbuilding steel is by no means free.
                        2) Three steam engines are in any case more expensive than two.
                        3) Belleville boilers are always more expensive than fire-tube boilers. Especially if the former have 30, while the latter only have 14.
                        4) They generally have more modern armor, which is also more expensive.
                        5) Electric drives and auxiliary mechanisms are also more expensive than steam and hydraulic ones.
                        In other words, price increases in this case are an inevitable price to pay for progress.
                        Quote: bayard
                        The Russo-Japanese War is too interesting and multifaceted to neglect its study and skip over the tops

                        PPKS!
                        But you've forgotten one important point: When studying this war, don't pass off your own speculation as fact!
                      57. 0
                        6 December 2025 12: 31
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        When studying this war, don’t pass off your fabrications as facts!

                        You just need to use all available sources. Including those from the author of those programs that were launched under Alexander III and successfully abandoned by his son due to the author's removal from control.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Quote: bayard
                        larger and more expensive than contemporary battleships (the same "Poltavas")

                        By definition, a larger ship with greater armor and comparable armament and armor will be more expensive. If each ton of armor at the time cost approximately 1000 rubles (give or take a small margin), then 13,500 tons is always more expensive than 11,000 tons. The British faced this problem, too, and therefore preferred to build armored cruisers for colonial purposes and trade protection. It was only on the eve of the Russian Yamal War that they finally built a series of 10 armored cruisers to counter the motley Russian raiders.
                        In the case of our fleet, the issue is precisely the incorrectly chosen concept of a large, armored, but slow-moving raider. Conventional armored deck ships would have handled such missions far better; they are half the price, much faster (we're not talking about "goddesses," but rather "Askolds" and "Bogatyrs"), and more efficient in terms of coal consumption. Even better and cheaper are raiders built from the fast steamers of the Volunteer Fleet; they also offer stealth, the ability to disguise themselves as regular merchant ships, are larger, have better habitability, and have space for storing trophies and accommodating prize crews. This path was optimal for an unequal war at sea (with England, for example, or for enforcing the blockade of Japan).
                        The construction of the Peresvet-class battleships was a conceptual error. They should have built proper battleships of the same size (12,000-13,500 tons) with proper (not weakened) armor and fully-fledged armament. The problem is that in the Russian Empire, ship design took too long, and designs were often outdated even by the time they were laid down. And since construction took so long, they entered service with outdated engines and, overall, no longer met the requirements of the time.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        3) Belleville boilers are always more expensive than fire-tube boilers. Especially if the former have 30, while the latter only have 14.

                        But the engines are still old. And the boilers' newness didn't help them earn the reputation of being "coal guzzlers."
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        2) Three steam engines are in any case more expensive than two.

                        At the time these ships were laid down, steam engines with a capacity of 14,000-15,000 horsepower with a two-shaft propulsion system were already available. However, the ships took too long to design (as in Russia), and no one bothered to make changes to accommodate a more efficient propulsion system. Furthermore, the Potemkin was also designed for a propulsion system that was already archaic by that time.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        4) They generally have more modern armor, which is also more expensive.
                        5) Electric drives and auxiliary mechanisms are also more expensive than steam and hydraulic ones.

                        They should have put this on normal battleships, and not on a raider, the role of which a high-speed steamer (19 knots) with 120 and 75 mm guns would perform much better, cheaper, more efficiently, more discreetly, and more stealthily, mimicking an ordinary merchant ship.
                      58. 0
                        3 December 2025 14: 40
                        They are designed to be waterproof))) but in reality they are very permeable when an oncoming wave weighing several tons hits them.
                      59. +1
                        3 December 2025 17: 14
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        only in reality they are very permeable when hit by an oncoming wave weighing several tons.

                        You've just forgotten that the same thing happens with other casemate guns—on the side, but designed to fire forward, too.
                      60. 0
                        3 December 2025 18: 07
                        So are they permeable or not?
                      61. +1
                        3 December 2025 18: 15
                        It's happened in all sorts of ways. Some were waterproof, and others, like at Borodino, had half-inch gaps.
                      62. +1
                        3 December 2025 18: 21
                        I remember, near Novorossiysk, we found ourselves in a "bora"—an indescribable experience. The oil pumps, using 36 x 39 mm wrenches, were tightening the nuts on the doors leading to the upper deck. They were usually watertight, but when a wave coming from the upper deck hit the door, they would "play" and water would flow into the vestibule. It's a good thing the coamings in the vestibules are high, about half a meter. Otherwise, all the water would have ended up in the corridors, with all the spillage that ensued. The oil pumps in the vestibule were working knee-deep in water, one tightening the nut while two others held him down. Even though we were facing the waves, the ship was absolutely tossing and turning.
                      63. +2
                        3 December 2025 19: 02
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I remember, near Novorossiysk, we found ourselves in a "pine forest" - an indescribable feeling.

                        I sympathize, because the Bora is no joke. But the fact is that the side casemates in the bow of many ships suffered from the waves no less than the bow gun.
                      64. 0
                        29 November 2025 19: 49
                        Amendment:
                        Quote: bayard
                        And the power of a 6" high-explosive shell that exploded on this slab, especially with a double hit, was already quite sufficient to split and tear off the slab.

                        Of course it's a typo, we're talking about a probable double hit from an 8" shell.
                        Because of the glare on the keyboard, I mixed up the numbers.
                      65. +1
                        28 November 2025 13: 28
                        When did "Asama" become 134 m?))) When did you finish it?))) All my life - 124 m.)))
                      66. +1
                        4 December 2025 13: 09
                        Remember who (by the way) sank the "Shisoya" and "Navarin"? As far as I remember, it was Kamimura's cruisers, which managed to destroy (albeit with superior numbers) fully-fledged battleships with their 8" high-explosive shells.

                        But weren't the Sisoes and Navarin destroyed by night torpedo attacks by Japanese destroyers?
                      67. +1
                        4 December 2025 14: 23
                        Quote: Murmillo
                        But weren't the Sisoes and Navarin destroyed by night torpedo attacks by Japanese destroyers?

                        They were lost to destroyers, but throughout the day they periodically engaged Kamimura's cruisers. As a result, their anti-torpedo artillery was severely damaged, preventing them from repelling the destroyer attacks. I expressed it incorrectly. What was meant was the fact that the old battleships engaged cruisers and the extremely unfortunate outcome for them.
                      68. -2
                        27 November 2025 16: 30
                        Actually, there wasn't a double. Three Russians versus four Japanese, including the less-than-successful Azuma, which Kamimura placed at the rear of the column to play it safe.
                        The battle of the Vladivostok detachment is no longer the beginning of the war.
                      69. +1
                        5 December 2025 10: 02
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        not the most successful "Azuma", which Kamimura placed at the end of the column to avoid risks

                        Azuma's eccentrics flew off in the heat of the battle, so she fell behind and became the last one
                      70. -1
                        27 November 2025 16: 27
                        The Peresvet's main gun turret is very short relative to the hull length, and narrow. It offered little protection. Above it is the 102mm main gun, which offered no protection at all against 203mm shells. When the Japanese 203mm shells started exploding in the Peresvet's unarmored parts, you'd have fires, flooding, and everything else that led to the Oslyabya's overkill.
                        The same goes for the "Aces" - their entire SK is in a casemate, only it is better armored.
                      71. +2
                        27 November 2025 16: 30
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The "Aces" also have their entire SK in prison.

                        Marsh learn materiel!
                      72. +1
                        27 November 2025 18: 14
                        Okay, so there are 4 in deck mounts. What difference does that make, exactly?
                      73. +2
                        27 November 2025 18: 53
                        Now calculate the length of the citadel of both ships and you will find out that the Russian one is longer both in meters and in percentage.
                        At the same time, remember that the Oslyabya was actually sunk by the Fuji and Shikishima (they wrote about this on the website) and stop talking nonsense.
                      74. -3
                        27 November 2025 19: 02
                        Where did Peresvet get his citadel? Point at me.
                      75. -1
                        27 November 2025 19: 07
                        P.S. Citadel is something like this.
                      76. +1
                        27 November 2025 19: 19
                        See above. I mean, go learn the ropes!
                        This is the Citadel
                        the internal volume of a ship with its vital parts (engine and boiler rooms, ammunition magazines), protected by armor

                        She might even be like this
                      77. -2
                        27 November 2025 20: 12
                        Gorgeous view))) And can you give an ancient Roman trireme as an example?))) As I understand it, artillery doesn't need to be armored))) Why the hell would we need it in an artillery duel?))) Especially since some theorists considered the 152mm caliber more important due to its rate of fire and the number of barrels.
                      78. -1
                        27 November 2025 20: 19
                        P.S. Here's an armored "Garibaldi" with a citadel. And what you've drawn and "Peresvet" is pornography.
                      79. -1
                        27 November 2025 20: 45
                        As an advertisement))) for general development
                      80. +1
                        28 November 2025 06: 12
                        Aa ... good laughing
                        Nikolai, you made my day. I haven't laughed so hard in a long time. You don't even know what a citadel is... But you're still arguing somewhere.
                      81. -2
                        28 November 2025 10: 27
                        Do you know? Well, tell me, I haven't laughed in a long time either.
                      82. -2
                        28 November 2025 10: 32
                        I took it from a children's encyclopedia, just about your level))) A "citadel battleship" is a type of armored ship from the second half of the 19th century, the main feature of which is the location of the main artillery in an armored "citadel" or several turrets protecting the most vulnerable parts of the ship.
                      83. +2
                        28 November 2025 10: 44
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I took it from a children's encyclopedia, just about your level)))

                        That's your level. And the correct definition of a ship's citadel was given to you by the respected senior sailor (from Samoilov, the Marine Dictionary, etc.)
                      84. -1
                        28 November 2025 13: 31
                        And who decided that it was correct?))) Are you with the senior sailor?))) And how are we with delusions of grandeur?)))
                      85. 0
                        28 November 2025 13: 57
                        Well, of course you and your interpretation of the children's encyclopedia are right. Calm down, and don't forget to take your medications on time. What do you have there, intravenous chlorpromazine?
                      86. -1
                        28 November 2025 14: 18
                        Worry about your little one))) I undergo a medical examination regularly, every year, including a psychologist.
                      87. -1
                        28 November 2025 14: 19
                        P.S. From Wikipedia - a very valuable source))) by the way, if you look at the picture more closely, it does not contradict my thoughts in any way.
                      88. +1
                        28 November 2025 14: 40
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        From Wikipedia - a very valuable source))

                        Read it again, syllable by syllable.
                        "Marine Dictionary" by Samoilov
                      89. -2
                        28 November 2025 15: 27
                        And who is Samoilov? Has this guy seen the sea?
                        It would be fine if it were Stanley Goodall, Emory Land, Charles Lillicre.
                      90. +2
                        28 November 2025 15: 34
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And who is Samoilov?

                        Compared to a children's encyclopedia? :)) He's only a second-rank captain, so what's he got?
                        Nikolai, aren't you tired of making people laugh yet? Making such an epic gaffe is certainly unpleasant, but do you really think persisting in the mistake will somehow smooth it over?
                      91. -3
                        28 November 2025 17: 35
                        Actually, he's a rear admiral, since you're so insistent on accuracy. Secondly, these two volumes bear the signature of Jesus Christ, confirming that everything in them is accurate and precise? That fellow had nothing to do with shipbuilding. He used other reference books to compile his reference book. I've listed the shipbuilders whose opinions carry weight with me. Keep your guesses and fantasies to yourself.
                      92. 0
                        28 November 2025 18: 23
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Actually, he's a rear admiral, since you're so insistent on accuracy.

                        At the time of writing, there was a cap of 2. However, even if I am wrong here, it doesn't matter.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I have listed for you the shipbuilders whose opinions carry weight with me.

                        Yes, a children's encyclopedia. It has weight for you, I already realized that. :)
                        But the greatest weight for you is the desire to never admit your mistakes. I think everyone has already understood this.
                      93. -1
                        28 November 2025 18: 29
                        Look at this guy's biography))) Who wasn't he?))) But somehow he never became a shipbuilder)))
                      94. -1
                        28 November 2025 18: 57
                        P.S. Do you even know how to read?))) It says "flagship of the 2nd rank," not "captain"))) Look it up in Samoilov's Dictionary to see what that means)))
                      95. 0
                        27 November 2025 16: 22
                        Well, Melnikov, in "Rurik Was the First," writes that the design was based on a theoretical drawing of a large ocean-going steamship, about 150 meters long. And from there, the "Rurik" began to be "danced."
                      96. -2
                        27 November 2025 18: 20
                        Or they took/bought an unfinished steamship... and finished it.
                      97. 0
                        27 November 2025 18: 24
                        The design and construction process for the entire series is well known. The theoretical design for an ocean-going steamship was based on considerations of seaworthiness in rough seas.
                      98. 0
                        27 November 2025 16: 18
                        Yes, the construction of the Pobeda and Gromoboi in 1898 was pure sabotage. Instead of two proper ships, the Russian Navy received two mishaps.
                      99. -4
                        27 November 2025 18: 29
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Yes, the construction of Pobeda and Gromoboy in 1898 was pure sabotage.

                        I suspect they had been preparing metal, castings, and structures for the Pobeda for a couple of years beforehand, and when they came to their senses and wanted to at least install 12" guns on it... it turned out that "this was no longer possible." So, the Pobeda was built from what had been prepared earlier.
                        And the "Gromoboy"... Well, it's the same thing - they took an ocean liner, slapped on an armor belt (not a full one, but at least it was that), made gun ports... and even left the huge mast in front of the conning tower as it was. It even interfered with looking ahead... and they tolerated it. So it's simply a conversion of a civilian liner. However, before the Russian Navy, we also converted up to a dozen Dobroflot steamships that operated in the Far East into auxiliary cruisers/raiders.
                        So they couldn't build anything else to replace them, because almost all the work for the first one was already done, and the second one simply already existed, there was no need to build it, so they rebuilt it as best they could. It seemed to run fast, too. I saw one that managed as much as 21,5 knots.
                      100. -1
                        27 November 2025 18: 42
                        Judging by what I've read about Russian shipbuilding during that period, advance orders, even for identical ships, were not placed, as the entire process, a highly complex bureaucratic and accounting process known as "construction," involved a myriad of procedures. Moreover, the Peresvets were built in both state-owned and private shipyards.
                        Well, "Gromoboy", regardless of the details, was not needed - pure sabotage.
                      101. 0
                        30 November 2025 18: 29
                        Hello, dear Bayard!
                        I ask you to draw your attention to a factor that has been overlooked in the discussion and criticism, namely the Peresvet and Pobeda crane manipulators. Take a closer look and you will understand that the boiler and machine limitations were at the root of your dissatisfaction... The long citadel is due to the outdated crane manipulators, and there was no other before the transfer and development of Caesar technologies.
                      102. -2
                        30 November 2025 20: 38
                        Yes, it's clear that the old machines were given a third powerplant to increase overall power, thus stretching the citadel. A perfectly decent ship could have been built with this three-shaft propulsion system. They just shouldn't have made the forecastle so unreasonably high (lowered it by one deck), shouldn't have built such a high casemate battery amidships, shouldn't have installed heavy masts with combat topsails, and generally "thought and remembered about top weight." Build a combat ship, not a stately armed liner. Look at the British ships of the time (battleships) – rationality, simplicity, a combination of speed, artillery power, and armor protection. By simply lowering the forecastle by one deck and trimming the bulky casemate battery to a normal level, and installing light masts, we would have gained/saved weight, which could have been used to increase the main battery's guns and strengthen the armor. And we would have had a perfectly decent ship, even with a weakened main battery. And if we had installed 12-inch turrets, we would have been truly proud. And her speed would certainly not have been affected.
                        But we also built "Borodinets" based on a mangled "Tsesar" design! And they raised her forecastle to an indecent height and rigged her spar deck to who knows where. The "Retvizan" is a different story. If she had had the "Tsesar"'s armor (continuous) and its torpedo protection, such battleships would have been priceless in that war. That's what they should have built, taking the best from the "Tsesar." And we should have ordered two "Tsesareviches," since the French insisted. They barely managed to finish building our ships just before the war.
                        Regarding the propulsion system... the Retvizan's engines were more powerful, delivering 17,000 horsepower to the shafts. If it had reliable German boilers and efficient propellers, they would have given us at least 19 knots at full speed. There you have the key to victory. Everything was in our hands, just make the right choice and keep an eye on the deadlines. Incidentally, the Japanese Retvizan easily achieved 19 knots after replacing its propellers.
                      103. -1
                        1 December 2025 20: 59
                        Back in the days of suspender pants, I remember drawing war pictures where German tanks had square turrets... Japanese kids probably also easily distinguish between friend and foe in scribbles by the high forecastle... On the one hand, it's supposed to be a show-off, but show-offs are more valuable than money—a high forecastle is the embodiment of a claim to dominance in the oceans...
                        The idea itself is correct (excellent!), the embodiment in the form of "Peresvets" is disappointing (but it will do for a "B minus"), but the deadlines are bad, and again, in terms of quantity - failing,
                        If only....
                        A dozen Peresvets and Rurikovichs, plus a few "legionnaires" for strength (well, ours couldn't make the ideal EBR-1 themselves), then the Russian Empire would have easily replaced Japan as the hegemon of the Far East... Hence the choice of the Caesar as a prototype - for growth, for the tasks of world domination
                      104. 0
                        1 December 2025 21: 45
                        Well, the engine is licensed...
                        For such a contraption, I wouldn't mind spending money on construction, or delaying it over time, or even more so, some diamonds.
                        Just try to improve the "Sevastopol" on the basis of a domestic crane manipulator - no problem... At most, you'll have to repeat the "Poltava"...
                        Watch your hands --
                        1. Due to Krupp and the casemate scheme, you can play back, let's say, a kiloton from the "Sevastopol" overload (I exaggerated, however).
                        2. Take an engine from the Baltic Shipyard and add half a kiloton for the construction overload of the mechanisms, plus some coal for the gluttony...
                        Well, something like "Poltava" will work, but it's not a fact that you'll make it in time for the war - in real life, we have bottlenecks with Krupp and the main battery artillery...
                        The thing is, it's a complete circle: the yield of available crane manipulators (including imported ones) is around 11 kilohorses. This limits the maximum payload to 11 kilotons... And a modern, first-class battleship simply cannot fit within this specified maximum payload. It would certainly be inferior to the Mikasa (with 16 kilohorses and 15 kilotons, respectively) by a factor of 1.5...
                        So what to do?
                        Stick in a third PM with boilers, stretch out the hull and citadel for it, and with three machines, and a long hull, the speed is almost 20 knots (if you have the right hands) - it will flood, and you yourself, with your own hand, will finish drawing that damned high forecastle...
                      105. 0
                        1 December 2025 23: 44
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        Well, the engine is licensed...

                        In fact, at the time the Borodinets were laid down, we had not even a licensed, but our own patented, German-designed 20,000 hp propulsion plant—custom-built for the Bogatyr-class cruisers, with our patent. And with excellent (the best available at the time) German boilers. Moreover, we had the opportunity to obtain a slightly more modest 15,500-16,000 hp two-shaft propulsion plant from the same Germans (they built the Askold for us in a three-shaft version using these machines, a three-shaft 23,500 hp propulsion plant).
                        The Retvizan also had a Kramp power plant with 17,000 hp, but the American boilers were still unreliable. Install German ones and it's perfect.
                        We had access to all of this.
                        But there was no time left - the ships had to be laid down immediately.
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        The capacity of the available crane manipulators (including imported ones) is about 11 kilohorses. It limits the VI again to 11 kilotons.

                        This was during the construction of the Poltavas, and they were laid down before the squadron needed to be hauled to Arthur. And the aircraft there are licensed English ones. One set was simply ordered and purchased in England.
                        But by the turn of 1898-1899, even without the French, we had three propulsion systems to choose from, with capacities of 15,500, 17,000, and 20,000 hp—choose any of them and build EBR-1s with capacities of 12, 15, or 17 kilotons. There was no suitable design, and they didn't want to remake the Poltavas after the hassle of construction and a bunch of turrets, so they were preparing the Potemkin design for the World Cup (using old British patented machines) and the Retvizan for the Pacific Fleet, a design prepared with Kramp's participation, using the Maine EBR hull as a basis, but with a casemate battery from the Potemkin (only with 12, not 16, SC guns).
                        And they should have built the "Retvizan" series specifically, making changes to the "Tsarevich" design; it wasn't that difficult or labor-intensive (to refine the design). But then the French and Witte began intriguing, promising kickbacks to the "tsar's uncle" and... "Tsarevich" was truly a beauty, but it was already in the "Borodintsy" that it was disfigured with "improvements"... so they were tempted by beauty and perfection without thinking about the deadlines and labor costs. They would have definitely built the "Retvizans" in time, and sent them to Arthur. 17,000 horsepower is a confident 19 knots at full speed on rational (correctly selected) propellers. So much for the superiority in squadron speed. It seems like only 1 knot, but the nature of the battle would have been dictated by us, not the Japanese.
                        And the "Tsarevich" should definitely have been ordered, even two of them (instead of the "Bayan," to meet the deadline). They would have made their contribution, too. But their engines, no matter how much they were praised, produced 15,600 hp, well, maybe with a boost to 16,000 hp, and therefore a speed of 18 knots. Perhaps with efficient propellers up to 18,5 knots. Less, but they would have remained in service.
                        Here is the solution to the problem - to obtain a full-fledged squadron stronger than the Japanese fleet in Arthur by the end of 1903.
                        The fact that the forecastle on the Peresvets was raised for seaworthiness is perfectly understandable – they weren't designed for squadron combat; they were CRUISERS. That's what they were called both during design and construction. Plus the high casemate battery, plus the heavy masts with fighting topsails = high metacentricity and a tendency to capsize – the "upper weight" syndrome. The ships were weak and inadequate for squadron combat, but they were quite suitable against Kamimura's Japanese cruisers in a single formation alongside battleships. And they would have easily maintained a squadron speed of 18 knots.
                        It would have been better to use the Polavians as a separate, slow-moving detachment, adding to them the Sisoes and Navarins (it would have been entirely possible to replace their artillery with new ones right in Artur, and the old guns would have gone to the coastal batteries. And their vehicles were still quite good - look at the races they had on the way back to Kronstadt).
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        Stick in a third PM with boilers, extend the hull and citadel for it, and with three machines, and with a long hull, the speed is under 20 knots

                        No. Well, they stuck a third car into the Peresvets, though weaker than the two main ones, and what happened?
                        There were already enough normal machines of the required power. So the next series could already be designed for a 20,000 hp propulsion plant, with a speed of up to 21 knots (look at the cruiser "Rurik-2": with a 17,000-ton thrust capacity and a 20,000 hp propulsion plant, it produced 21,5 knots. Moreover, its design began right on the eve of the Russian Nuclear War, but they didn't have time to lay it down). Such an aircraft carrier could carry two three-gun main battery turrets, or four two-gun linear-elevated turrets. They were no longer in a hurry, and it was possible to work on the designs properly.
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        You yourself, with your own hand, will finish drawing the cursed high forecastle...

                        After the Russian Nuclear Forces - please. But back then, we needed EBR for the war, in sufficient quantities and very quickly.
                      106. 0
                        2 December 2025 11: 38
                        Somehow you all underestimate the good taste of the Grand Duke)))
                        And his girls are not just any girls, and he brought a special engine back to the Motherland... So what if the "Retvizan" has 17 kilohorses, when these horses eat like crazy?
                      107. 0
                        2 December 2025 11: 43
                        The German ones may be better in this regard, but a cruising engine is still not an EBR one. And here, judge for yourself - at 1350 to 5500 miles thanks to economizers - that's what you need in a theater of operations, so as not to carry extra coal
                      108. 0
                        2 December 2025 14: 14
                        An economizer is certainly good, and it increases range, but the Germans built our 20,000-horsepower propulsion plant—with our money and under our patent. And the German boilers weren't just good, with the highest specific efficiency among their peers; they were also very well adapted to oil fuel, and we were already experimenting with this at the World Cup.
                        Well, the Tsar's uncle really knew how to choose girls. But that didn't help matters.
                        So the best decision back then was to order two "Tsesarevich"-class ships from France and build them ourselves, using the "improved Retvizan" design. We were really on a deadline – we were two years behind on laying down the new ships. Only the "Retvizans" could be built quickly and on time. Kramp should have ordered four of these ships; he came to St. Petersburg for that, hung around for so long, and participated in the design. He would have definitely had time to build them, and they would have been stationed at Artur until the end of 1903. Their capabilities against Japanese ships were quite sufficient. Especially if the Pacific Fleet had been provided with decent shells, instead of listening to the Tsar's hysterics. Remember: "You'll ruin me with these shells. Let them fight with the old ones." And the old ones were bad at fighting.
                      109. 0
                        2 December 2025 14: 52
                        Oh!
                        Don't you feel sorry about handing over "Retvizan" to vivisectionists?
                        You know what they did with "Caesar" (Immediately, involuntarily, I remember the cartoon about the Caliph-stork: mutabor, mutabor....
                      110. +1
                        2 December 2025 14: 57
                        Are there enough guns for everyone?
                        And also - "What if it rains during the drying season?"... I mean "The doctor thought we would deceive him, but we didn't deceive him." In short - they will attack a year earlier...
                      111. 0
                        2 December 2025 15: 16
                        All this hard-earned wealth (three battleships, three armored cruisers, a suede jacket - half-finished... also three) - will all be frozen, supposedly interned until the end of the war? So that some American profiteer can hold the Russian Tsar by the balls?
                      112. 0
                        2 December 2025 15: 21
                        As Zhvanetsky said, you have to eat, drink and love your own...
                        Support domestic manufacturer:
                        1. We will not give our daughters in marriage abroad.
                        2. The Pacific Fleet's complement will be outsourced to our shipyards!
                      113. 0
                        2 December 2025 16: 22
                        It's true that you'll have to buy a Caesar just for the engine... And we'll have to (have to) shut the throats of Kramp and Lagan with orders, just to clear the field... Well, so that no one gets offended - in the volume of Real (one EBR and one cruiser, i.e., no change)
                      114. 0
                        2 December 2025 16: 57
                        And so as not to worry about shells - well in advance, back in 1891 (applause), we choose 10" X45 as the main gun... We test and train on cats (we waste a defective batch)... And we order OSZ 10" X48 from improved gun steel, which was used for 8", 12" and 10" for the "Pobeda"... Armor penetration will be at the level of 12" X40, with better ballistics and rate of fire... AND THE SHELLS ARE ALREADY AT THE LEVEL BASED ON THE INTRODUCTIONS OF OUR REALITY! !!
                        plus a weight savings of half a kiloton on guns, turrets, barbettes, ammo and reinforcements
                      115. 0
                        2 December 2025 17: 10
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        Support domestic manufacturer:
                        1. We will not give our daughters in marriage abroad.
                        2. The Pacific Fleet's complement will be outsourced to our shipyards!

                        You're singing just like "Count" Polusakhalinsky. Only this one, not yet a "Count," would be hanging for attempting to assassinate the entire royal family during the Borki disaster, if that's the scenario we're going with.
                        Our daughters have plenty of suitors here, and how could we not support an overseas manufacturer when its English-American bankers declared it bankrupt for a pittance, not allowing it to refinance? And if we had helped it, it would have been forever indebted to us, building shipyards for us in Artur and Dalny with its friend, and sending its son to launch those shipyards. All according to feng shui, as agreed in 1898.
                        And our orders aren't just for Kramp, just four battleships. The French have two more, and we have four (to make sure we get them done in time). That's already ten new ones, and we've already built them on time. Not counting the new cruisers and battleships previously laid down. And by the beginning of 1903, we had eight of them hanging around in Arthur - the Poltavas, the Peresvets, and the Sisoes and Navarin, which no one in their right mind would have sent to Kronstadt. Witte's not there, not at all, and we're sending Uncle and his ballerina on a two-year tour of Latin America, so they can have fun and don't interfere with business.
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        In short, they will attack a year earlier...

                        Sure, let them attack. But no matter how hard the British, American bankers, and politicians tried to persuade the Japanese to attack Arthur and Korea in the summer of 1903, the damned Japs wouldn't budge. First, they were settling in and mastering the new ships, training the crews, firing, and tirelessly practicing survivability. There was no other way. And this wasn't for six months, but for a YEAR. And they didn't even have enough ships in stock to attack. To boost their confidence, they had to acquire two more Italian-built second-class battleships and borrow money from British and American bankers. Only then did the Japanese decide to do so—when the Nishin and Kasuga arrived in their harbor. Before that, no way.
                        So they knew that the new battleships were definitely late for the war, and that their quality was so-so. If they'd known that in addition to the eight in Arthur, we had another 10 preparing for the crossing, they would never have dared. They may be samurai, but they're not suicidal. And if they'd been more accommodating in negotiations, they wouldn't have disputed Korea with us. And 18 battleships, 13 of which can maintain a squadron speed of 18+ knots, aren't like 6 + 8 second-rank ships. The math isn't complicated.
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        Don't you feel sorry about handing over "Retvizan" to vivisectionists?

                        Not at all, his project was done in Russia, with Kramp's participation, but in Russia... it's just that during those months of litigation over who to award the orders to, it was possible to have time to adjust the project - a solid belt and side corridors - anti-torpedo.
                        And there would be enough money for everything. Sharapov is not Witte, he had enough for everything.

                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        Are there enough guns for everyone?

                        Enough, of course it's enough. In the allotted time, we can expand production and order/purchase new machine tools. If done on time, there's enough for everything. Even on new machine tools, 12" guns with a 45-caliber length should be able to achieve a higher velocity for the HEAVY shell, made using French technology, so it can fly further and confidently penetrate the Mikasa's armor.
                        After all, they wanted to make 12" guns of 45 calibers in length right away, but the lathes weren't long enough. And they figured out how to order new lathes too late. All the delays were due to Witte; without him, there would have been enough guns not only for the ships, but also for the coastal defense of three naval bases - Artur, Vladivostok, and Dalny.
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        they will attack a year earlier...

                        fellow Welcome, holy fools. Without Witte, fighting is only a matter of grace.
                        Even as things turned out, the samurai were losing to us right up until Tsushima and Kuropatkin's removal. If the 2nd Squadron had remained in Cam Ranh to blockade and build up forces, Kuropatkin would have begun attacking the Japanese on land from mid-1905, cutting off their retreat to the sea. Few would have survived. And Rozhdestvensky, standing in Cam Ranh, would have built up his forces, receiving reinforcements (the Slava and two "first-borns," cruisers of all kinds, or maybe even an agreement with the Turks about allowing Black Sea battleships to pass through). So, no matter how you look at it, we were winning the Russian Navy up until Tsushima as usual – on land. And then the 2nd Squadron would have built up its strength and also approached. Only the Treason and Stupidity of the Stupid Tsar lost the war.
                      116. 0
                        2 December 2025 19: 00
                        You still overestimate the role of the individual in history... The elite as a whole has a tendency to degenerate, be it the seed potatoes, the nobility, or the grandchildren of the old Bolsheviks... At the turn of the century, the methods of Ivan IV and Peter I were already unacceptable, but a few years later a certain leader successfully renewed the experience of the Middle Ages.
                      117. 0
                        2 December 2025 20: 43
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        but a few years later, a certain leader successfully renewed the experience of the Middle Ages

                        If those reforms had taken place, this leader would have been simply a lawyer, probably a successful one, and probably also an accomplished writer and thinker. But the grounds for rebellion and general discontent would have been greatly reduced. All these passionate people would have been given a vast field for creative activity. With the rapid growth of the economy, the demand for labor, especially skilled labor, would have increased many times over, as would workers' salaries, as well as the working conditions with which employers would attract. Land-poor peasants would have had no problem deciding which of their sons would inherit the land - the eldest sons could gather in a community and move with their wives to new lands, receive land there, and the means to cultivate it, and a start-up allowance for house construction (remember the program for settling Siberia; it was just a fragment of that larger program), and within five years they would own as much land as they could raise. And it's not just plowing for rye - you need to plant orchards, plantations, livestock, and grazing lands/pastures. Especially if we're talking not about individual farms, but about communal ones, which can raise much more through joint efforts. There is plenty of land in southern Siberia and Manchuria, the climate in Manchuria is like in the south of Russia (except for the very north), i.e., familiar to us and suitable for our agricultural crops. There would be no dissatisfied people left in the western regions, because the remnants of the landless would have been pulled out by raging industrialization. Enthusiasm for the country could have risen to the level of the 1930s-50s in the USSR. And educated Russian youth would have sought to receive not a humanities, but a technical education, because engineers and technologists are in great demand for a growing economy. There would be plenty of money in the country, because that is what the Financial Reform was designed for.
                        It was only after the death of Alexander III, and especially after the death of Sharapov, that it became clear to everyone that the path of peaceful reform under Tsarism was impossible, for the royal line had degenerated. Society began to seethe in search of an alternative path of development. Meanwhile, enemies (primarily England) foisted and nurtured the most radical revolutionary parties and movements. Even the founding congresses of many parties were held in England. It was a complex process, not described in simple textbooks.
                      118. 0
                        2 December 2025 23: 18
                        You are a maximalist)...
                        Development and prosperity are subject to the general laws of existence... Meaning, if one nation proliferates and grows rich, then other people and countries elsewhere will suffer. Imagine that your description came true—then the world's money flows would turn toward Russia, leading to the unification of civilization for a crusade...
                        The Crimean defeat began with the victory at Sinop.
                        We need to be careful with all this - the best war is the one that never happened, and ideally it would be correct to limit ourselves to a balance of power, but with the presence of an autonomous and mobile squadron in reserve in the Baltic or the Mediterranean.
                      119. 0
                        2 December 2025 23: 36
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        You are a maximalist)...

                        I am a materialist. And I know historical examples well too.
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        Development and prosperity are subject to the general laws of existence... In the sense that if one nation proliferates and becomes rich, then in another place other people and countries will experience losses.

                        This didn't happen in the USSR. Especially during Stalin's time. The people's well-being grew, the economy was expanding, the Army and Navy were being built at a Stakhanovite pace, there was enough money for everything, if only there were enough workers to master it all. And mastered it they did.
                        And where did it decrease then?
                        In the US, economic growth is similar to ours (the Roosevelt-Boruch Industrialization), Germany is experiencing rapid growth, France is experiencing so-so growth, and England is experiencing stagnation, but that was already the case after WWI. So, there's no decline, only growth. It's like a plant—it grows because it's healthy, there's moisture, and the right soil.
                      120. 0
                        2 December 2025 23: 52
                        An interesting topic, unfortunately beyond my competence, but still, as I recall, the Great Depression coincided with the years of the first five-year plans.
                      121. 0
                        2 December 2025 23: 55
                        Why else would foreign specialists come to help us?
                        It's logical to assume that they were starving... I don't really believe in support for the sake of an idea - like Dovlatov said: I can't swallow politics)
                      122. 0
                        3 December 2025 03: 03
                        Of course, for money. In the US, there were kilometer-long lines of applicants at the USSR Embassy and at our recruiting stations. At that time, about 100,000 American specialists worked in the USSR and helped launch factories and entire industries. There were also quite a few German ones.
                        Incidentally, future US President Nixon spent several years in the Urals with his parents at the time. He was friends with Russian kids, played football with them, and when, as president, he visited the USSR, he persuaded Brezhnev to let him visit the town where he had lived for several years with his parents. He even ran into some of his former comrades there. Under Roosevelt, we were truly allies, and for this alliance, he was assassinated on the eve of his next presidential election. They couldn't forgive him for taking control (through Borukh) of the US Federal Reserve. Without this, the miracles of Roosevelt and Borukh would simply have been impossible.
                        The cause of all crises is the international banking system.
                      123. 0
                        3 December 2025 02: 54
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        Still, as I recall, the Great Depression coincided with the years of the first five-year plans.

                        With the onset of industrialization in the United States and Europe, the Great Depression gradually began to recede. The United States emerged from the Depression on our orders, and at the same time, following our example, they carried out their own industrialization. Roosevelt and Borukh were performing miracles in America at the time. Stalin, looking at this with amazement, said: "Roosevelt is trying to save capitalism... and he is succeeding."
                        In 1933, Hitler came to power in Germany and immediately began to pull the country out of the Depression. This was done with American loans and, in large part, thanks to our orders. Germany's share of our industrialization (supply of equipment and machine tools) was 18%, while the US's share was around 80%. Within 10 years, the USSR purchased almost all the machine tools and industrial equipment in international trade—around 95%.
                        The driving forces behind the Depression's recovery were the United States and Germany, both largely thanks to free trade with the USSR and their participation in our industrialization. So, in part, we pulled Western countries out of the Depression by demonstrating breakthrough economic growth at an unprecedented rate. Other countries followed suit thanks to our orders and contracts.
                        And we ensured our growth not by taking out loans (currently, we were paying off our deliveries until the end of the year), but by covering our imports with our exports. And it wasn't grain (as the fools claim) that was our main commodity. Our exports were colossally, simply monstrously, super-marginal; such a profit margin is possible only in the drug trade. But it wasn't drugs, it was... Russian fur. We flooded the US and Europe with furs from our fur farms, of which there were countless throughout the country. The fashion and demand for Russian fur was simply insane, every shipment sold like hot cakes, and the costs/production costs compared to the selling price... one can only envy such a business. This (and not only) is what mainly ensured our parity in the procurement of all industrial equipment. Remember the movie "A Girl with Character"? Do you remember where that girl worked and why she went to Moscow? And only the USSR could supply elite furs in such quantities.
                        In the 50s and 60s, to deprive the USSR of such a lucrative export item, the West began to promote a movement to protect "poor little animals" and to promote faux fur. And yes, demand fell, our industry folded, and Khrushchev and his followers continued to champion faux fur.
                      124. 0
                        3 December 2025 01: 59
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        will turn towards Russia, which will lead to the unification of civilization for the crusade...

                        This has happened more than once. This is no reason not to reproduce and get rich. On the contrary, it is an incentive to become stronger, richer, and more numerous. The Russian Empire was heading down this path. If it had remained a global backwater, it would have simply died. The wealth of our land does not depend on the wealth of the people; it always attracts. Look at Venezuela, there is so much wealth, but the people are so poor. The people are poor, and they (the robbers/pirates/parasites) keep coming. We need dichlorvos.
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        The Crimean defeat began with the victory at Sinop.

                        Are you suggesting not to win?
                        And the victory of May 9, 1945 began with the defeats of the summer and autumn of 1941. Anything can happen. Sometimes this way, sometimes that way.
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        the best war is the one that never happened

                        It wouldn't have existed anyway, at least not with Japan. And anyway, leasing Kwantung and Port Arthur wasn't even planned from the start, at least not in the near future. The interest was in Manchuria - it was more convenient to run the Trans-Siberian Railway through it, and for development and exploration in general. Very few people lived there, the Chinese didn't know how to farm the land in that climate, the land was waste. But the climate was just right for us. And the road to Beijing for trade. And radial branches from Harbin to various points on the CER. We needed a food supply base for developing Siberia and the Far East, and everything else as a whole - everything for development. We didn't cross paths with the Japanese at all. Arthur and Kwantung fell into our laps "by accident", i.e., unexpectedly, and seriously ahead of time. No one would have allowed Witte to perform such a chorus under Al-3. The Tsar pardoned him, saved him from the gallows, trusted him, and even entrusted him with an important task – to be Sharapov's assistant. In vain. On the other hand, when all else failed, he should have taken it, because the Rothschilds had begun their game: arming the Japanese, building them a fleet at the best English shipyards, arming and training the army. And the answer was simple: order twice as many battleships and the same number of armored cruisers of a more powerful design. There are shipyards for this, their own are so-so, but as experience has shown, even with poor funding from Witte, the latter's "Borodin" ships were being built at a quite good pace by world standards.
                        4 battleships from Kramp, 2 from the French, 4 from ourselves + 10 battleships by the deadline. What is missing, we order from abroad, because of the pace and deadlines. No matter how you look at it, the Japanese can’t keep up with us - by the end of 1903, we had 16-18 battleships in Artur, of which 10 were newly built + 6 almost new + 2 not new, but capable of fighting. And these are only battleships, only in Artur and only by the end of 1903. But we could also have armored cruisers and of better quality than the Asama. By the end of 1898, we already had a two-shaft propulsion plant with 20,000 hp for a cruiser ready and tested. At our order, with our money and our patent. Go ahead and build armored cruisers with a capacity of up to 12,000 tons, with 10" main guns and a speed of 21 knots+. We could have built them in Germany or at home. Or we could have built them at Kramp's, which just happened to have bought another neighboring shipyard by that time, and his slipways had increased significantly. We are a much more profitable customer for him than his own state, which ordered a bare hull with engines and equipped them with everything, including armor, from state-owned factories. Kramp received very little money from such orders. A large order for fully finished ships, excluding artillery, is another matter. They should have given him a license to manufacture 4 propulsion plants of our design and German boilers (for uniformity and it's more reliable anyway), and let him build 4 more cruisers "better than Asama," as he wanted. Moreover, the order would double compared to the previous one (there was an option, however, it was stipulated in (In 1898, during preliminary consultations), Kramp, thanks to such an order, completely resolves all his problems with banks and business development plans. We help—he's grateful; his friend is already building a shipyard in Artur and laying the foundations in Dalny, and Kramp's son is helping out there.
                        The Germans could have built us two to four such cruisers, but... we needed to come to an agreement with the Kaiser. He then began building his own fleet and temporarily banned his shipyards from building armored ships for foreign customers (armor production was lagging, all of it was going to German ships). But an agreement could have been reached with the Kaiser, after which his shipyards would have started building us cruisers at a rock-n-roll pace. And they were already doing quite well. Well, they could have built a couple of themselves, with the security of armor supplies from abroad. But we only needed six to eight of these cruisers. According to one project, simply as a fast wing of the Pacific Fleet to hunt Kamimura's cruisers. And at least six of them by the deadline (late 1903) in Arthur.
                        And that's it – we have such a fleet in the Pacific that even the Grand Fleet would be risky to venture there (at this time, they only have 25 battleships and 6 to 10 weaker cruisers). Meanwhile, in the Baltic, new, more powerful battleships are already being completed, and crew coordination is being tested.
                        At the same time, we pose no threat to anyone; we're doing our job – building railways, developing Manchuria and Kwantung. We've assembled 18 battleships for the Pacific Fleet plus six of the newest armored cruisers, 24 in total. That's what a navy is for, to base them somewhere. Warm seas are better, of course. And we have plenty of light cruisers, and any of ours is stronger than any Japanese one. In the new reality, we're not offending the Germans and are ordering as many cruisers as they can build. Namely: four Noviks and two Askolds. Armored cruisers are being built instead of Bogatyrs, but they're based on a different calculation.
                        At the same time, we are building another 6 Noviks (2 to 4 will be ready by the Artur deadline) and 4 Askolds (2 will be ready by the Artur deadline). And we are building the "goddesses" not according to the Alech (from Witte) design, but according to the original one - VI 6000-7000 tons, 2 x 8" + 8 x 6" on normal machines that are available at the time of laying down, namely German ones - a two-shaft propulsion plant of 15,500 hp, a speed of 21-22 knots. In other words, an armored deck version of the "Bayan". And we are building not 3, but 4 units, and since we are already goddesses, we are naming the fourth "Lada". With normal funding, they will all be completed on time.
                        There's also a gift from the Empress's mother's relatives, "Boyarin"—so-so, but it'll do for the OVR. Or you could pay extra for something more useful, as per your family's wishes.
                        That's it - we can fight.
                        But there's no one to fight. The Japanese won't dare; they have nothing to fight with. They won't even buy Nishin and Kasuga missiles—they're useless. And you can train a land army, and there aren't enough Russian troops in Manchuria, so how are you going to carry out a landing operation if the Russians have such a navy right there? No amount of cunning or daring will help here.
                        That's how we won without war.
                        And since 1905, direct trains around Lake Baikal have been running, and life in Manchuria has begun to flourish. The army has arrived, as have settlers and workers for the new factories. Steam tractors are plowing the land, the commune members ("tsarist communists") are cultivating it, gardens are blooming, horses are grazing with cows and sheep, children are having fun, factories are humming and being built, the shipyards that Kramp's friend built have begun to operate, metallurgical plants, and those in the cooperative shipyards, steam locomotives and carriages are being built on site, as well as tractors, steam engines (fast and quiet), trade is going on, cities with Russian names are being built, industrial ones.
                        The Empire has no particular business with Europe; reforms are underway in the country – industrialization. The Russian Empire will not join any alliances, but relations with the Germans and French are emphatically close – we are both needed. Well, if they do start a war, then let them have their fun. Without us, we will watch. While they are fighting, we will trade, develop industry, and slowly mobilize the army, and prepare – you never know what might happen, war is right there. We don’t care about Europe, but once they wear each other down and it comes to an end, we will choose which side to take for the final point in the war, or simply take the straits from the Turks, because freedom of navigation is paramount.
                        These aren't my plans, but those of the Slavophiles, drawn up back in 1905 for a future war in Europe. We don't care about them, but if France defects to England, we'll give Germany free rein to this madness. We won't interfere ourselves and will even continue to trade with everyone. But we'll take control of the straits, along with Thrace, so that ships can navigate freely and the English navy won't dart around there. And no war, no—Russia maintains armed neutrality. And the Russian economy is already the world's number one, thanks to the addition of Manchuria and industrialization.
                      125. 0
                        3 December 2025 08: 52
                        Thank you!
                        Very positive, and most importantly, logical and thorough....
                        A good program is the maximum (for this reason I have classified you as a maximalist), it is all the more disappointing that it did not work out, the more relevant the topic raised by the author of the article is
                      126. 0
                        3 December 2025 08: 58
                        For my part, I am going to meet you halfway, but in a different way - at a minimum...
                        And I come to the conclusion that it is possible to avoid defeat within the Procrustean framework of financing and technologies of reality, precisely and only through the shipbuilding program
                      127. 0
                        3 December 2025 11: 12
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        A good program is the maximum (for this reason I have classified you as a maximalist), it is even more offensive that it didn’t work out

                        You haven't read Sharapov's book about those real plans; everything there was much broader, and yet everything was entirely realistic and within the framework of the Great Game. That's why, in addition to the Trans-Siberian Railway, they built the Turkestan Railway with a branch from its end point to the Trans-Siberian Railway. There, the target was already East Turkestan and Tibet, and an agreement was reached with the local princes and rulers (the Dalai Lama), and under the hand of the "White Tsar" they didn't just agree, they wanted it—they begged. But these were plans for a 20- to 50-year perspective. And that's only for the Far East and East Asia. There was also talk of India, and of a canal from the Caspian to the Persian Gulf through Persia with locks, and of Turkey, when not only the straits, but also as far south as Jordan or even Suez, the Black Sea would become the Inland Russian Sea. The Great Game is like that—the Great fellow And most importantly, everything is realistic, with schedules, rhythms of events, connections with other events. Simply healthy imperial thinking within the framework of the Great Game. Some aspects of the plans for India, East Turkestan, and Tibet are mentioned in the biography of General Kornilov; after all, in his youth, under the guise of a merchant (for he had an oriental appearance), he traveled thousands of kilometers in caravans, collecting maps, plans, and descriptions of the terrain and locals for the General Staff. He did a tremendous job. So, it wasn't just Przhevalsky... many of our people were there. He negotiated with the Dalai Lama and with the princes of Eastern Turkestan, and we also watched over the Hindu Kush. It's no wonder Sharapov wrote in 1905 that "Had Alexander III lived, he could have stopped the Anglo-Boer War, or rather, England's aggression against the sovereign Orange Free State, simply by deploying a couple of corps, or even armies, to the Hindu Kush with a stern warning: 'If the English don't turn their fleet around, I WILL TAKE INDIA.'" And he would have. The English had no means of fending off our Army in Hindustan, and local princes regularly begged to join the White Tsar, sending embassies to our viceroy with requests like, "Take us away from England, we will help you all, we want to be under the Russian Tsar." Such were the scale and categories on which affairs and plans were carried out then, and then... The mountain (Alexander III) gave birth to a mouse (Nikolka No. 2)...
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        And I come to the conclusion that it is possible to avoid defeat within the Procrustean framework of financing and technologies of reality, precisely and only through the shipbuilding program

                        Any defeat was fundamentally impossible. To drag Russia to Portsmouth, it would have required a complete and clinical idiot on the throne, and as Prime Minister, not just a Rothschild spy, but "absolute Evil and Cunning." The Russian Empire's defeat in that war was simply invented, and the destruction of the fleet was painstakingly and meticulously orchestrated. After the loss of Arthur, leading the 2nd Squadron to Vladivostok was the height of stupidity. It should have simply remained in Cam Ranh, blockading shipping to Japan, and simply loomed as a factor, continuing to receive reinforcements, and waited for the second half of 1905, when Kuropatkin, having finally received his main forces via the Circum-Baikal Railway, would begin to attack the already exhausted Japanese armies drawn deep into Manchuria. Victory in Manchuria and Korea was never in doubt, as was the recapture of Kwantung, Arthur, and Dalny. The Japanese armies would never have returned to Japan. They would have been buried there. Of the "Kuropatkin Plan," perhaps the landing operation on the Japanese islands would have had to be delayed somewhat. And even after the destruction of the 2nd Squadron at Tsushima, the Russian Army's quick victory in Manchuria was never in doubt. And this victory would have eclipsed the shame of Tsushima, for a new fleet could be built, while all our Far Eastern possessions remained intact and were annexed by Korea. In other words, even after Tsushima, Russia's victory in the Russian Empire was inevitable... but Witte convinced the Foolish Tsar to surrender.
                        By intimidating them with the start of a "revolution," which was simply a carefully orchestrated and heated up rebellion. To achieve this, he ordered the execution of the "march of women workers to the Tsar," organized by the provocateur (who worked for both the police and MI6), the priest Gapon. In other words, one of Witte's agents gathered the workers for a "peaceful march to the Tsar," while another of his henchmen organized the shooting of the unbridled crowd, from among which someone fired revolvers. The stupid Tsar wasn't even in the capital then; he was in Tsarskoye Selo with his family and didn't even hear what was going on. He didn't care about state affairs at all—his head couldn't contain it. That's where Witte SCARED him. am "Revolution"—like, "We need to end the war immediately, it's because of it that the people are dissatisfied and are already accusing the stupid, extremely incompetent, and unsuccessful tsar of murdering their people." He scared them and went to Portsut to sign the capitulation. And he even gave half of Sakhalin to the Japanese, which they hadn't counted on at all.
                        It was absolutely impossible for Japan to lose the war... but the Spy and the Foolish King did the impossible. It is a historical phenomenon.
                      128. +4
                        2 December 2025 16: 51
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        You know what they did to "Caesar"

                        Improved, oddly enough :))
                      129. 0
                        2 December 2025 17: 35
                        In some places, yes, undoubtedly...
                        A deep-draught ship is more stable as a platform...
                      130. 0
                        2 December 2025 17: 43
                        ...And is a smaller target.
                      131. 0
                        2 December 2025 18: 09
                        Oh!
                        Excuse me)
                        I wrote it on the go.
                        I forgot to say hello and congratulate you on the fact that your firewood is burning as before)
                      132. +1
                        2 December 2025 18: 48
                        Quote: Dmitry24
                        In some places, yes, undoubtedly...

                        There's a very complicated story there, actually. With the Tsarevich's subtle flaws and the Borodinites' equally subtle virtues.
                      133. 0
                        2 December 2025 21: 58
                        By the way, another advantage of overload is that it is more difficult to hit from a distance under the lower edge of a narrow armor belt)
                        The only problem is that it is difficult to operate in the Baltic with such an initial draft, and large theaters of war are contraindicated due to the combination of quantity and consumption of coal.
                      134. 0
                        3 December 2025 14: 48
                        The Bogatyr was equipped with French Norman boilers, although they were most likely manufactured by the Germans. I haven't come across any details about this—whether the Germans made the boilers themselves (under license) or received ready-made ones from France. However, the Bogatyr never had any problems with the vehicle.
                      135. 0
                        3 December 2025 14: 44
                        There was the Potemkin - optimal for the Russian Navy.
                      136. 0
                        3 December 2025 16: 04
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        However, Bogatyr never had any problems with the car.

                        That's what I'm saying, the engines turned out great and delivered power confidently, perfect for a fast armored deck ship, a VI-class armored cruiser of 12,000 tons with 2 x 2 10" main guns, and for a "large battleship" VI of around 15,000-17,000 tons and enhanced main gun armament. And we've had such engines since at least the beginning of 1899.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        There was the Potemkin - optimal for the Russian Navy.

                        In terms of armament, yes; in terms of armor, yes, in principle; in terms of speed, no. With new-model vehicles, say, from the Retvizan (17,000 hp), it's perfect. But basically, "That's what the Retvizan was. Auxiliary artillery 12 x 6" – that was the specification for increasing coal capacity. And the armor system is essentially the same, so the continuous belt should be made like on the Tsar. That is, exactly what I wrote.
                        If the "Improved Retvizan" project had been implemented with a continuous armor belt and side anti-mine corridors, it would have been an ideal battleship for that war and it would have been easy to do.
                        Why the Potemkin has the old-style 11,000-horsepower engines is a mystery to me. Either they decided to save money, or they decided that speed isn't important in the World Cup. It was a very wrong decision.
                      137. 0
                        3 December 2025 16: 48
                        In actual service, the Potemkin had a speed of 16,7 knots, sufficient for interaction with the Sevastopols and sufficient for combat with the Japanese. At Tsushima, the Japanese squadron speed was 14,5 knots.
                      138. 0
                        3 December 2025 17: 16
                        Let's figure it out, we need the Potemkin as a Mernomorsky battleship, which would be good to transfer to Arthur or include in the 2nd squadron?
                        I agree with this, a ship would be very appropriate.
                        Or as a prototype for the construction of a large series for the Pacific Fleet?
                        I am categorically against this, because there is already the Retvizan, which is basically the same in terms of armor, almost the same in terms of armament, but which, with rational propellers, produces 19 knots and has a better coal reserve.
                        The war at sea during the Russian Nuclear War showed that superiority in speed allows one to impose one's own order and pattern of battle, giving the initiative in conducting a naval battle to those with higher squadron speed.
                        So imagine that instead of what we had in practice at Arthur by the end of 1903, we had 8 to 10 state-of-the-art battleships with a speed of 19 knots. This isn't just a matter of the number of ships of a single type, but the ability to force the Japanese to fight on our own terms. A well-chosen design and sufficient, consistent funding allowed us to withstand the time crunch imposed on us and ensure numerical and qualitative superiority.
                      139. -1
                        3 December 2025 18: 13
                        Japanese battleships with casemate-mounted guns performed much better than Russian ones with turret-mounted or partially turreted guns. The Potemkin's armor scheme was also quite successful. The Retvizan achieved 17,2 knots during trials with her boilers pushed to the limit. Flames flew from her funnels, and the paint on her funnels burned off. I doubt a simple propeller change would increase her speed by 2 knots. The Retvizan also had other design flaws.
                      140. 0
                        3 December 2025 19: 25
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        "Retvizan" gave 17,2 knots during tests with the boilers at maximum force.

                        17,9 knots, even with hundredths. But that was really with the boilers at maximum boost. And yes, the reason was precisely the inefficient propellers, since both the engines and the ship overall were the first in the series... In short, the customer's (Russian) representative signed the acceptance certificate despite Kramp's intentions to recalculate the propellers and make new ones, but time was running out, and the ship was sent to Russia. After the end of the Russian Nuclear War, Kramp helped the Japanese calculate and install new propellers, and the Retvizan immediately achieved 19 knots, as Kramp had originally calculated.
                        This is far from an isolated incident. The German-built cruisers Askold and Novik had their propellers redesigned two or even three times! Until they achieved maximum propulsion efficiency. I don't know about Bogatyr, but judging by the fact that it, being almost 1300 tons heavier than Askold and having engines of 20,000 horsepower versus 23,500, achieved a whopping 24,35 knots during trials versus Askold's 24,75, they probably tinkered with the Bogatyr's propellers as well. But what about the speed results? Kramp simply wasn't given time to select the right propellers, and he was very worried about it. After all, during trials, he promised the battleship would achieve 19 knots, but it fell just short of 18 knots. But if a series were being built, they would definitely have sorted out the screws and selected the optimal ones.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I doubt that simply replacing the propellers will give you 2 knots more speed.

                        Actually, about 1,08 knots. Let's round it up to 1,1. From memory alone, the same "Achkold" on its first trials yielded a speed almost 3 knots lower than expected. And it has three propellers. And when they installed the "rational" propellers on the third or fourth try, it almost caught up with the "Novik" – 24,75 versus 25 knots. But such a return was only achieved on the third or fourth try. If they had built a series, they would have avoided the ordeal of selecting propellers empirically.
                        Incidentally, the "Tsarevich" didn't achieve its estimated speed either. A minimum of 18,5 knots was expected, but it fell short of the 18-knot minimum by a few hundredths of a knot. However, both the "Retvizan" and "Tsarevich" were listed as 18 knots in the acceptance reports, as they knew they would go significantly faster with their improved propellers, but it was time to go to war.
                        The Potemkin has the same 11,000-horsepower engines as the Poltava, but its VI is already 12,000 tons and some change. So, 16,4-16,5 knots is already a very good acceleration. This is too little even for the World Cup.
                        But if Arthur had at least 6-8 of these battleships, but with Cramp machines (17,000 hp)... I would have looked at those Japanese.
                        But for the Pacific Fleet, range and autonomy were important, so the number of SK guns was reduced for this purpose.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The Retvizan also had other design flaws.

                        There were, but if the design had been finalized (and the time for this was from several months to six months before laying the foundation stone) by providing a continuous armor belt and side anti-mine corridors like the "Caesar", it would not have turned out to be a battleship, but a song for the conditions of the Russian Nuclear Forces.
                      141. +1
                        3 December 2025 23: 36
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Japanese battleships with casemate-type armor placement showed themselves to be much better than Russian ones with turret-type or partially turret-type armor placement.

                        Only because the Japanese won. The war revealed numerous flaws in the casemates of Japanese ships, from splash water to cardboard-like armor on the floors and ceilings.
                      142. -1
                        4 December 2025 11: 57
                        Flaws can be found everywhere, RYAV ended the way it did.
            2. -1
              25 November 2025 00: 26
              With the absence of a full belt along the waterline (the armored cruiser "Dupuy-de-Lom" designed with a full belt along the waterline was launched in 1890), a high freeboard, a catcher for enemy shells, and a weakened SC.

              "Second-rate is not a defect"
              1. +2
                25 November 2025 08: 24
                Quote: AlexanderA
                With the absence of a full belt along the waterline

                Well, Poltava and Fuji were also deprived of it, as were many other ships laid down before the mid-1890s.
                1. 0
                  25 November 2025 09: 07
                  The Peresvets were assigned the role of cruiser-raiders. They should have wondered why the French bothered with a full waterline belt and how this misunderstanding would allow them to engage in pursuit/withdrawal combat without a full belt.
                  1. +1
                    25 November 2025 10: 03
                    Quote: AlexanderA
                    The Peresvets were assigned the role of cruiser-raider. So they should have wondered why the French bothered with a full waterline belt.

                    The armored cruiser Dupuy-de-Lôme's side armor was designed to protect against high-explosive shells. It was later determined that Dupuy-de-Lôme could not reach Indochina on a single load of coal; she would need to replenish her coal supplies en route. A second calculation revealed that, to reach Indochina on a single load of coal or to operate for short periods on the communications lines, the ship's dimensions would need to be modified and its displacement increased by almost 1000 tons.
                    You can't compare "Dupuy-de-Lom" with "Peresvet", they have different performance characteristics.
                    1. 0
                      25 November 2025 13: 51
                      Quote: 27091965i
                      The side armor of the armored cruiser Dupuy-de-Lom was calculated based on protection against high-explosive shells.

                      What foresight the French had! In 1888, they laid down an ocean-going armored cruiser with a side armored against high-explosive shells...

                      What kind of shells did the Japanese use at Tsushima, armor-piercing ones? And what kind of "Andrew the First-Called" ships did we build after Tsushima, armored against what kind of shells?

                      I'm going to write a banality now - we need to prepare for a future war, not for the past one.
                      It later became clear that the Dupuy de Lomme could not reach Indochina with a single load of coal; it would be necessary to replenish its coal supplies en route.

                      And these are NOT booking features.

                      Getting back to the point, I mean the remarkable Peresvet battleship-cruiser project. The anecdotal failure to take into account the drag of the onboard engines' propellers in the design has become a commonplace... but, you've decided to build a "battleship-cruiser," perhaps you could include Belleville boilers with economizers in the design to improve crane efficiency?
                      You can't compare "Dupuy-de-Lom" with "Peresvet", they have different performance characteristics.

                      Do you think you can only compare equipment with identical performance characteristics? What's there to compare? The performance characteristics are identical. wink

                      And I wasn't actually making a comparison. I was kind of hinting that when determining the performance characteristics of the battleship-cruiser Peresvet, the ITC should have actually thought about: "Why do the French build their battleships and armored cruisers with a full armor belt at the waterline? Maybe there's some tactical sense to it?"
                      1. +1
                        25 November 2025 15: 01
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        What foresight the French had! In 1888, they laid down an ocean-going armored cruiser with a side armored against high-explosive shells...

                        The French never defined the armored cruiser Dupuy-de-Lôme as an ocean raider.
                        It later became clear that the Dupuy de Lomme could not reach Indochina with a single load of coal; it would be necessary to replenish its coal supplies en route.

                        And these are NOT booking features.

                        Armor has weight, and displacement is one of the factors that influences cruising range.
                        And what kind of post-Tsushima "Andrew the First-Called" ships did we build, armored against what kind of shells?

                        This is the "hindsight" effect.
                        I was kind of hinting that when determining the performance characteristics of the battleship-cruiser Peresvet, the ITC should have actually thought: "Why do the French build their battleships and armored cruisers with a full armor belt along the waterline? Maybe there's some tactical sense to it?"

                        There were two reservation systems in the world: English and French. Each had its advantages and disadvantages.
                      2. -1
                        25 November 2025 17: 05
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        The French never defined the armored cruiser Dupuy-de-Lôme as an ocean raider.


                        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Дюпюи-де-Лом_(броненосный_крейсер)

                        The ship was designed as a development of the doctrine of raider warfare against commercial shipping, actively advocated by the "Jeune École".

                        Quote the French on how they defined the "Dupuy-de-Lome." Were they planning to use it for a raid against commercial shipping?
                        Armor has weight, and displacement is one of the factors that influences cruising range.

                        Are you trying to claim that in the 1890s it was impossible to build an ironclad ship suitable for ocean raiding with a full armor belt along the waterline? Something else?
                        This is the "hindsight" effect.

                        If the "hindsight effect" manifests itself a priori, it is called by another name.
                        There were two reservation systems in the world: English and French. Each had its advantages and disadvantages.

                        And you're certainly aware of the rationale behind the French's adoption of a full waterline armor belt? I hope you also understand that the Russian idea of ​​an armored cruiser was closer to the French doctrine of raiding commercial shipping than to the British "trade protection" doctrine that produced such "wonderful" ships as the Powerful-class armored cruisers, with a displacement comparable to the battleships of their time.
                      3. +2
                        25 November 2025 20: 12
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Дюпюи-де-Лом_(броненосный_крейсер)

                        The ship was designed as a development of the doctrine of raider warfare against commercial shipping, actively advocated by the "Jeune École".

                        The source is certainly "strong".
                        Quote the French on how they defined the "Dupuy-de-Lome." Were they planning to use it for a raid against commercial shipping?

                        " All these cruisers, the Dupuy de Lôme, the Amiral Charnet, the Latouche-Tréville, the Chancey, and the Bruys, will be primarily combat cruisers (croiseurs de combat). They will be listed in the fleet under the name of squadron cruisers (croiseurs d'escadres), for service as scouts in detachments.." France. Marine 1893.
                        Later, these cruisers were given additional functions, but they had nothing to do with operations on communications.

                        I reviewed a recalculation for the armored cruiser Dupuy-de-Lôme for operations against the lines of communication. I was slightly off: the Dupuy-de-Lôme's displacement for full-scale operations against the lines of communication should have been 8340 tons.
                        And you know why the French came to a full armor belt along the waterline?

                        I know it.
                        I hope you also understand that the idea of ​​a battleship-cruiser that came to our minds was closer to the French doctrine of raider warfare against commercial shipping than to the British "protection of trade",

                        No, I can't agree with you, as it's necessary to draw parallels between the tactics of different countries over the years. We don't do that here.

                        A few words about the French "Young School"—in our country, it's presented as a single organization. In reality, the "Young School" was divided into several "trends," and these "trends" often clashed with one another over matters of naval development.
                      4. 0
                        26 November 2025 00: 42
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        "All these cruisers, the Dupuy de Lôme, the Amiral Charnet, the Latouche-Tréville, the Chancy, and the Bruys, will be, first and foremost, combat cruisers (croiseurs de combat). They will be entered into the fleet list under the name of squadron cruisers (croiseurs d'escadres), for service as scouts in detachments." France. Marine 1893.

                        "...But it was precisely to the coast of "Foggy Albion", or more precisely to the approaches to the largest British ports, where such clashes would become inevitable, that it was necessary to transfer the operations of the French cruisers in accordance with the views of Admiral Aub, who became the Minister of the Navy on January 7, 1886... Aub hoped to achieve victory over Germany and Italy with the help of armored squadrons (a staunch opponent of which he is sometimes portrayed), but in order to bring the "Mistress of the Seas" to her knees, in his opinion, it was necessary to turn to a "war against trade". But unlike his predecessors, who traditionally proposed to seek out and destroy British merchants in the vast expanses of the ocean, the new Minister of the Navy was going to organize a hunt for British shipping in the Mediterranean basin, the Bay of Biscay and on the close approaches to "Foggy Albion". A theory that seems absurd at first glance - to fight The idea of ​​pursuing enemy trade in close proximity to its main naval bases was based on a fairly sober calculation. To deal a significant blow to the world's greatest merchant navy, a significant number of cruisers were required. All these raiders had to be fast enough not only to catch fast ocean-going steamers but, if necessary, to evade the British "trade protectors." This necessitated a high-powered propulsion system and the elimination of sailing rigs. However, even with these requirements met, cruising range was directly dependent on the capacity of the coal bins, which inevitably led to an increase in the size of the "chasers." The French, however, lacked the financial resources to build large, high-speed "trade destroyers" en masse. The vicious circle was closing.
                        Admiral Aube proposed a simple and logical solution to this problem: use fast, moderate-sized ships to destroy enemy shipping, but at a short distance from their bases. Fortunately, the geographic location of the "Third Republic" was ideally suited for this. Furthermore, operating in close proximity to major British ports, where the rivulets of individual sea routes merged into one mighty river, eliminated the need for a lengthy search for British vessels across the vast expanses of the oceans, dramatically increasing the effectiveness of cruiser warfare. The only major drawback of this new theory was the increased vulnerability of the raiders, as they would be hunting in areas completely controlled by the enemy fleet. However, Admiral Aube already had a ready-made solution to address this. To ensure that an encounter with British ships would not be fatal, the French cruisers had to have a speed advantage over their pursuers and reliable protection for their machinery, ensuring they maintained their advantage even after sustaining combat damage.
                        But in 1886 the fleet under the tricolor flag had practically no such combat units...
                        It would seem that the types of cruisers so essential for the navy had been developed and now all that remained was to replicate them, but here the progress of artillery, partly initiated by the Minister of the Navy himself, powerfully intervened in shipbuilding.
                        By 1886, melinite, invented by the French chemist Turpin, had already found application in the ammunition of French field guns. True, the typical projectile containing this powerful explosive—long and thin-walled—was unsuitable for naval guns, with their high muzzle velocities and, consequently, significant gas pressure in the barrel. However, Admiral Aube, who was banking on the destruction of enemy coastal cities from the sea in a potential war with Italy, nevertheless decided to adapt these "melinite containers" for naval needs. This was especially true since the new class of ships, designated bateaux-canons in documents and intended to be "city destroyers," were intended to be armed only with medium-caliber guns, the destructive power of whose projectiles was considered insufficient. However, after the successful testing of the first of them, the Gabriel Charmet, which was essentially a torpedo boat with a single 139 mm gun, the dreams of myriads of 70-ton ships, turning port facilities and coastal cities into piles of rubble with a hail of melinite shells, had to be buried once and for all.
                        However, the bombardment of the old battleship Bellecuise with melinite shells in that same year, 1886, produced stunning results. The damage to the unarmored side and adjacent compartments was so severe that the cofferdams of French armored cruisers could no longer be considered sufficient protection against large-scale flooding. Therefore, the Construction Board, "taking into account the progress of explosive shells," immediately issued a request for specifications for a ship with greater speed and better protection than the armored cruisers proposed for construction. Many expected it to become the prototype for a versatile combat unit, capable of both effectively destroying enemy trade on the approaches to major enemy ports and replacing ironclads in the line of battle. In order to implement a new shipbuilding program, at the beginning of 1887 the Minister of the Navy requested a loan of 200 million francs from the parliament of the "Third Republic", which, however, was refused.

                        Design

                        Work on the actual design of the Dupuy-de-Lome began after Admiral Aube left his post in May. This was largely made possible by the powerful lobby of supporters of the "Young School" in the upper echelons of the French Navy. At the next meeting of the Construction Council, battleship advocates succeeded in securing the continuation of work on the battleship Brennus only in exchange for agreement to build another cruiser, "the design of which would best meet the requirements of the moment." At the meeting held on July 20, 1887, the Conseil des Travaux significantly clarified and adjusted the specifications for the new ship...


                        Naval Campaign 2007 No. 5 Armored cruiser Dupuy-de-Lom

                        Later, these cruisers were given additional functions, but they had nothing to do with operations on communications.

                        Haven't you read about the views of Admiral Aube on the actions of the French fleet on British communications, during whose time as Minister of Marine of the "Third Republic" the concept of the future "Dupuy-de-Lome" was born?
                        No, I can't agree with you, as it's necessary to draw parallels between the tactics of different countries over the years. We don't do that here.

                        DO NOT agree that "will become the prototype of a universal combat unit, capable of both effectively destroying enemy trade on the approaches to the enemy's main ports and replacing battleships in the line of battle." - Is this close enough to later domestic views on the concept of future Peresvet-class battleships?

                        Why?
                      5. +1
                        26 November 2025 10: 36
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        You haven't read about the views of Admiral Aubé on the actions of the French fleet on British communications, during his tenure as Minister of the Navy of the "Third Republic"

                        I read not only the works of Admiral Hyacinthe Laurent Theophile Aube, but also those of other followers of the "Young School".
                        but in order to bring the "Mistress of the Seas" to her knees, in his opinion, it was necessary to resort to a "war against trade."

                        Slightly different, Admiral T. Aubé proposed waging a "guerre de course a outrance," essentially unrestricted cruiser warfare. He called for abandoning the 1856 Paris Declaration on the Law of the Sea. For this, he was quickly and harshly rebuked by the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
                        But Admiral Ob, who was counting on the destruction of the enemy’s coastal cities from the sea in a possible war with Italy,

                        He wanted to apply this tactic to the port cities of England as well. The idea wasn't his; it was put forward by Gabriel Charmet, known in France as a "dilettante radicale."
                        According to this "idea" the main goals in port cities are port facilities, warehouses and areas where civilians live.
                        T. Ob fully supported the destruction of residential areas;
                        "The ultimate goal of naval warfare was to create public discontent in the enemy country. Whether this would result in a revolution or lead to industrialists forcing their government to sit down at the negotiating table is not the point.."
                        T. Oba clearly cannot be suspected of humanism.
                        To ensure that an encounter with British ships did not turn out to be fatal, the French cruisers had to have a speed advantage over their pursuers and reliable protection of their mechanisms, which would guarantee maintaining an advantage in the course of action even if they received combat damage.
                        But in 1886 the fleet under the tricolor flag had practically no such combat units.

                        This is probably why, in 1886, three "avisos de course" (ships of the same name) were laid down for operations off the coast of England: "Forbin," "Surcouf," and "Coetlogon." Three more ships of this class were subsequently laid down.
                        Therefore, the Construction Board, "taking into account the advances in explosive shells," immediately issued a request to develop requirements for a ship with greater speed and better protection than the armored cruisers proposed for construction. Many envisioned it as the prototype for a versatile combat unit, capable of both effectively destroying enemy trade at the approaches to major enemy ports and replacing battleships in the line of battle.

                        If you read French newspapers of that time, you will learn even more about France's cruisers, since "everyone and their dog" wrote about the fleet.
                        The definition of the actions of second-class battleships, which at that time included armored cruisers, was given in France about 10 years before the appearance of the "Young School".
                        Actual work on the design of the Dupuy-de-Loma began after Admiral Aube left his post in May. This was made possible in large part by the powerful lobby of the Young School's supporters in the upper echelons of the French Navy.

                        You yourself have given the answer to your question, it is below.
                        At a meeting held on July 20, 1887, the Conseil des Travaux significantly clarified and adjusted the specifications for the new ship.


                        Do you disagree with the idea that "it will become the prototype of a universal combat unit, capable of both effectively destroying enemy trade on the approaches to the enemy's main ports and replacing battleships in the line of battle" - is this close enough to later domestic views on the concept of future Peresvet-class battlecruisers?

                        Why?

                        I'll answer later, otherwise it will turn into a whole article and not a comment.
                      6. 0
                        26 November 2025 12: 19
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        You yourself have given the answer to your question, it is below.

                        I actually did NOT quote how the specifications for the future cruiser were clarified and adjusted at the meeting of the Conseil des Travaux on July 20, 1887. But in these adjustments and clarifications there was nothing that would contradict the conceptual views of the "trade destroyer" on the close approaches to "Foggy Albion" of Admiral Aub, who had already left his post as Minister of the Navy.

                        As a result, the cruiser received a three-shaft propulsion plant with a central engine for economical propulsion and fire-tube boilers, which were more efficient than the water-tube boilers of the time. Their poor design and insufficient steam output subsequently delayed the cruiser's commissioning for years and resulted in a full speed below the expected 20 knots. The cruiser was given 90 days of autonomy in terms of provisions. All this, especially the three-shaft propulsion plant with an economical engine (at a meeting on July 20, 1887, the designers were instructed to provide coal reserves for 4000 miles of travel at 12,5 knots and recommended calculating the capacity of additional coal bins so that when filled, the ship could travel 1000 miles further while still maintaining the ability to achieve 19 knots), would have been of no use to a close-in armored scout attached to a squadron.
                        For example, a much later armored close-range reconnaissance vessel of the French squadron, our "Bayan", with a greater displacement of 3400 miles at 10 knots and 2100 miles at 14 knots, had provisions for 45 days.
                        So, you're wrong to claim that the Dupuy-de-Lôme was designed and built as a close-in reconnaissance ship attached to a squadron, and that there was no "destruction of British trade" mission evident in its technical design. Technically, this is untrue. The point is that the Dupuy-de-Lôme spent its entire relatively short peacetime service as a close-in reconnaissance ship attached to a squadron, but, as the saying goes, "man proposes, God disposes." Had the Dupuy-de-Lôme been built as a close-in reconnaissance ship, she would have avoided a number of chronic problems with her propulsion system, and would likely have achieved her "contracted" speed during trials. She would have served in the French Navy for significantly longer, likely remaining in combat service until World War I.
                      7. +1
                        26 November 2025 13: 38
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        But in these adjustments and clarifications there was nothing that would contradict the conceptual views of the “destroyer of maritime trade” on the close approaches to “Foggy Albion” of Admiral Oba, who had already left his post as Minister of the Navy.

                        Can you list these changes and differences from the original draft?
                        Alexander, don't bother copying from the "Marine Company" magazine, I have that issue.
                      8. 0
                        26 November 2025 14: 10
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        Can you list these changes and differences from the original draft?

                        What's the difference between the requirements for the future cruiser during Admiral Oba's tenure as Minister of the Navy and the adjustments made at the July 20, 1887, meeting after his departure? Or the difference between those adjusted requirements on July 20, 1887, and what was actually built?

                        The main difference between what was built and what was discussed at the meeting of July 20, 1887, was the turret artillery. The meeting of July 20, 1887, in fact, didn't stipulate that all 194 mm and 164,7 mm guns should be turret-mounted. However, it did stipulate that all these guns should be positioned so that five guns of these calibers could fire simultaneously at any point on the horizon.

                        As a result, a ship was built with 194 mm and 164,7 mm guns in turrets, although the cruiser designed by de Bussy, which received approval at a meeting on October 18, 1887, had a barbette-casemate placement of its 194 mm and 164,7 mm artillery.

                        Well, de Bussy did not make a raised poop to save weight.

                        The Naval Ministry only became concerned about placing all 194 mm and 164,7 mm guns in the turrets of the cruiser already under construction at the end of July 1888.

                        These design changes had virtually no effect on the ship's cruising qualities, which determined whether it would be suitable for the role of a "trade destroyer" or not.

                        Or do you disagree with me again on this point? For example, do you believe that de Bussy's rejection of a raised poop deck turned the designed cruiser into a pure "close-in armored reconnaissance vessel for a squadron," depriving it of the qualities required of a raider, a "trade destroyer," "on the close approaches to Foggy Albion"?
                      9. +1
                        27 November 2025 22: 18
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Or do you disagree with me again on this point? For example, do you believe that de Bussy's rejection of a raised poop deck turned the designed cruiser into a pure "close-in armored reconnaissance vessel for a squadron," depriving it of the qualities required of a raider, a "trade destroyer," "on the close approaches to Foggy Albion"?

                        " Lorsque l'amiral Aube prit le poste de ministre de la Marine française en janvier 1886, il se concentra sur les croiseurs qui faisaient déjà partie de la flotte, ainsi que sur ceux qui étaient prévus pour la construction ou en cours de conception. Conscient de la menace que représentaient les croiseurs étrangers équipés de torpilles pour les intérêts maritimes français en Europe et audelà. Aube ordonna la construction de croiseurs supplémentaires. Les tests sur l'ancienne corvette Belliqueuse ont montré que les plaques de blindage 100-mm étaient capabilities de résister à de nouveaux types de projectiles. En conséquence, les services techniques de la flotte ont conclu qu'une ceinture de blindage complète sur les côtés de la coque devrait devenir une priorité dans la nouvelle conception des navires, suivant les idees d'Henri Dupuy de Loma, qui ont été introduites sur le cuirassé Glory. Bien que Aube ait quitté son poste en mai 1887, l'influence des jeunes théoriciens sur le ministère de la marine est restée importante, ce qui a permis à leurs partisans de continuer à promouvoir la construction de croiseurs. À l'été de 1887, le conseil a annoncé un concours parmi les ingénieurs de la marine pour développer les croquis d'un nouveau croiseur, qui devait posséder des armes plus puissantes que les navires précédemment construits et être équipé d'une Ceinture de blindage complète."
                        Marine, navires et stratégie français 1880-1914.
                      10. 0
                        28 November 2025 08: 40
                        Quote: 27091965i
                        Conscient de la menace que représentaient les croiseurs étrangers équipés de torpilles pour les intérêts maritimes français en Europe et audelà.

                        Why did you highlight the following from the passage: "Realizing the threat that foreign cruisers equipped with torpedoes posed to French maritime interests in Europe and beyond" O ordered the construction of additional cruisers?

                        After all, these are "general statements." It's a platitude: additional cruisers were planned for combat with enemy cruisers. And practically all cruisers of that time carried torpedo armament.

                        But in the passage you highlighted there is a mention of "maritime interests in Europe and beyond".

                        "Beyond its limits" subsequently resulted in a requirement for 90 days of onboard food autonomy and coal reserves sufficient for 4000 miles of travel at 12,5 knots. This requirement also resulted in a recommendation for additional coal storage capacity for another 1000 miles of travel while maintaining the ability to achieve a full speed of 19 knots with a full coal load.

                        The consequence of such requirements for a range of 12,5 knots was the three-shaft propulsion plant with a central engine for economical speed, as well as more economical fire-tube boilers than water-tube boilers.

                        These boilers ultimately became the ship's main technical problem. Their poor design and attempts to correct it delayed the Dupuy-de-Lome's commissioning for several years and resulted in the cruiser failing to achieve the expected 20 knots at full speed during sea trials, despite repeated attempts to optimize the propeller diameter and pitch.

                        Thank you for the excerpt. The information contained therein once again confirms that the Dupuy-de-Lôme was never intended or built as a specialized close-range reconnaissance battleship for a battleship squadron.

                        The Dupuy-de-Lôme was conceived and designed as a universal armored cruiser, including for expeditionary missions outside the European seas.

                        It is worth noting that Admiral Oba's concept of a cruiser war against British trade "on the close approaches to 'Foggy Albion'" did not require actions "outside Europe."
                      11. +2
                        28 November 2025 09: 52
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        The Dupuy-de-Lôme was conceived and designed as a universal armored cruiser, including for expeditionary missions outside the European seas.

                        You're absolutely right, but this cruiser's mission didn't include interdiction of communications. The reason was the escalation of colonial issues between France and England in Africa in 1887. This was also influenced by the 1887 treaty between Germany, England, Austria-Hungary, and Italy, which affected French interests in Africa and the Mediterranean. Essentially, it was directed against France.
                        It is worth noting that Admiral Oba's concept of a cruiser war against British trade "on the close approaches to 'Foggy Albion'" did not require actions "outside Europe."

                        That's the whole point. A cruiser with a long range, self-sufficiency, and protection from high-explosive shells was needed. The Dupuy-de-Lôme was to become such a cruiser. The French also recalled their "cuirasses de croisière"-class ships for defending the colonies.
                      12. 0
                        29 November 2025 18: 16
                        While the Russian Empire had small armored cruiser-raiders, the Dmitry Donskoy and Vladimir Monomakh, with good armor against high-explosive shells from armored deck cruisers.
              2. 0
                25 November 2025 11: 15
                "Third grade is not a defect"
        2. -1
          24 November 2025 15: 44
          I would agree with Nikolai. If the construction of Peresvet and Oslyabya can still be justified, then Pobeda is definitely
          the ravings of a madman.

          As well as the construction of Gromoboy in his reality.
          1. +5
            24 November 2025 20: 14
            Quote: Trapper7
            If the construction of Peresvet with Oslyabya can still be justified, then Victory is certainly

            Why? :))) There weren't any other projects. However, I'll write about this in detail in future articles.
            1. -3
              24 November 2025 22: 12
              What wasn't there?))) There were ready-made designs—"Sevastopols" and "Potemkins"—just go ahead and build them. No ready-made Brkr design? Let's order two "Garibaldis" from Italy instead of "Gromoboy" and "Bayan." Or build one in Russia based on an Italian design.
            2. +1
              25 November 2025 08: 15
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Why? :))) There weren't any other projects. However, I'll write about this in detail in future articles.

              Of course, you're right about 1897—when the decision was made to build it, and there simply weren't any other ready-made modern ship designs. Because the Sevastopol was already outdated, and the Potemkin wasn't fully developed.
              But two years passed from 1895 to 1897!
              1. +3
                25 November 2025 08: 52
                Quote: Trapper7
                But two years passed from 1895 to 1897!

                During these years, the Peresvet was considered a fully-fledged fighter-bomber, capable of solving all squadron combat tasks. This will become clear from subsequent articles.
              2. -1
                25 November 2025 11: 20
                The Sevastopol is obsolete—but isn't the Fuji? It fought throughout the entire Russian Navy, from its first day to its last. Construction of the Potemkin began in 1897, meaning some plans already existed.
                1. +2
                  25 November 2025 11: 55
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  The Sevastopol is obsolete—but isn't the Fuji? It fought throughout the entire Russian Navy, from its first day to its last. Construction of the Potemkin began in 1897, meaning some plans already existed.

                  Well, Poltava also fought, and if the Poltava-Amursky regiment hadn't fallen, it would have continued fighting, right up until World War I. The question is: why lay down a ship that was obviously obsolete in 1897? Although, if the design had been refined, then...
                  1. -1
                    25 November 2025 12: 51
                    It would have been possible to improve it, but even the very fact that the Far East had nine EBMs with 305mm main guns and quite adequate armor, compared to six Japanese ones, would have given Tokyo pause.
        3. -1
          24 November 2025 22: 06
          They were used in two battles, without much success.
        4. 0
          25 November 2025 00: 19
          When "implementing" a three-screw design for economical propulsion under the average vehicle, failing to take into account the resistance of the onboard engines' propellers, which aren't turned by special drives—what else can you call that? And after all, models were tested in the Experimental Tank. But those models didn't have those propellers installed.
        5. 0
          27 November 2025 17: 26
          What's the point of singling them out as a separate, presumably fast, unit? Their speed was practically equal to that of their Japanese peers: Fuji and Yashima. Not to mention the "younger" Japanese.
          They were roughly the same speed as the German Kaisers. But their range was excessive for the Baltic. And the price they paid for this was their size.
    2. +3
      24 November 2025 20: 11
      Good evening, dear Igor! Thank you for the information.
      Quote: 27091965i
      The second discussion is of the 1890 French design for a ship of the "cuirasses de croisiere" class.

      I've never heard of this before. hi
      1. +3
        24 November 2025 21: 12
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I've never heard of this before.

        Essentially, these are second-class battleships, with slightly smaller main guns and slightly thinner belt armor. They were designed due to the impossibility of sending first-class battleships (cuirassés d'escadre) from the British navy. From 1890 to 1900, the French alternately intended to build them and then abandoned them. After ten years, they probably tired of arguing and decided in 1900 to transfer the functions of the "cuirasses de croisière" to armored cruisers (croiseur cuirassé) and conveniently forgot about them.
        1. +3
          24 November 2025 21: 25
          Quote: 27091965i
          Essentially, these are second-class battleships, the main caliber is slightly smaller, the armor belt is slightly thinner.

          Yes, of course, that's perfectly understandable. I've just never heard of the French considering such a thing, so I'm very grateful to you.
  9. 0
    24 November 2025 13: 46
    The author is trying to find logic where there is none. I won't delve into the primordial times. In 1895, it became clear that Japan was enemy number one, and a shipbuilding program was adopted "to strengthen the Far East." It would seem clear—there was no longer any talk of any cruising operations in the ocean against Britain, but in 1898, the Pobeda was laid down. Although it is clear—she was no longer needed. A proper battleship was needed—a Sevastopol or a Potemkin (a Potemkin is even better). The Gromoboi was laid down—even though she was no longer needed. There was no native design for a proper armored cruiser. They could have built another Sevastopol or Potemkin instead of the Gromoboi, or bought one of the Garibaldians from the Italians. The Bayan was ordered from France—an absolutely unimaginable piece of junk—cobbled together for who knows what purpose. And the funniest thing is that in 1906 the situation repeated itself: instead of buying the very decent armored cruisers of the Amalfi type from the Italians, they ordered the Bayan II in France and built two identical ones in Russia - complete nonsense.
    1. +1
      24 November 2025 14: 08
      Quote: TermNachTER
      However, in 1898 the "Pobeda" was laid down.

      The Pobeda was laid down because the slipway was free and the project was well-developed.
      1. 0
        24 November 2025 14: 10
        What prevented the "Sevastopol" or "Potemkin" from being laid down on this slipway - there was a ready-made design?
        1. +4
          24 November 2025 14: 25
          Quote: TermNachTER
          What prevented the "Sevastopol" or "Potemkin" from being laid down on this slipway - there was a ready-made design?

          "Sevastopol" is a morally obsolete project.
          "Potemkin" is very specific and has not yet been worked out
          1. 0
            24 November 2025 14: 52
            What exactly made it obsolete? In terms of performance characteristics, it's quite comparable to the Fuji.
            1. +3
              24 November 2025 14: 56
              Quote: TermNachTER
              What exactly made it obsolete?

              Speed.
              Reservations.
              Artillery.
              Divided into watertight compartments.
              Drainage system.
              Ventilation.
              And there is much more I can write...
              If you need to elaborate on any points, please write.
              1. -1
                24 November 2025 15: 02
                Now compare it to the Fuji, which successfully fought through the entire Russian Navy and continued serving thereafter. What are the fundamental differences?
                1. +2
                  24 November 2025 15: 05
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  Now compare it to Fuji.

                  Why? When making the decision, they weren't comparing it to Fuji...
                  1. +1
                    24 November 2025 15: 31
                    But when they actually fired, they were quite comparable. If in 1904, instead of three Sevastopols and two Peresvets, there had been five Sevastopols, the outcome might have been completely different.
                    1. +5
                      24 November 2025 16: 19
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      But when they were shooting, they were very comparable.

                      Shooting requires a methodology for artillery officers and practice for gunners.
                      If in 1904... there were five "Sevastopols"

                      even if it was the Borodinites, without improving the accuracy of fire the game would have been one-sided
                      1. -1
                        24 November 2025 22: 15
                        Accuracy of fire is the result of training artillery officers and sailors, and rangefinders, but by no means the worst performance characteristics of the "Sevastopols."
                      2. +4
                        24 November 2025 22: 17
                        What I'm saying is that you're thinking completely wrong. To defeat Japan, they shouldn't have relied on technology (other battleships, shells, guns, etc.), but on training artillery officers and gunners.
                      3. -1
                        24 November 2025 22: 20
                        If the enemy has better equipment, then let your officers and sailors be golden.
                      4. +2
                        24 November 2025 22: 26
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        If the enemy has better equipment, then let your officers and sailors be golden

                        2TOE had better technology than the Japanese, did it help much?
                      5. -1
                        24 November 2025 23: 48
                        And how was it any better? Ships that had practically circumnavigated the globe, overloaded with everything imaginable, not having undergone proper testing, etc.
                      6. +3
                        25 November 2025 00: 11
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And how was she better?

                        The Japanese only had 16 12-inch guns, and the Fuji's guns were hardly modern. During the battle, the guns exploded regularly.
                        The Russians have far more 12-inch guns, all new. Not a single 12-inch gun has been recorded lost due to reasons unrelated to enemy action.

                        The Borodinites have two full belts. The Japanese have not a single such battleship.

                        The Russians' shells can penetrate armor and explode behind it, but the Japanese cannot.

                        The Russians had more rangefinders.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        overloaded with everything possible

                        technology is not to blame here

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Not passed normal tests

                        Technology has nothing to do with it either. Incidentally, the vehicles worked well during the battle, and I don't remember any complaints.
                      7. +3
                        25 November 2025 10: 30
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Fuji's guns can hardly be considered modern.

                        And why is that?
                        Or are you talking about the installations in general? But the guns themselves have nothing to do with it, especially since the Japanese managed to circumvent the restrictions.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The Russians' shells can penetrate armor and explode behind it.

                        Punch through, yes, but there's not much to tear apart.
                      8. 0
                        25 November 2025 11: 03
                        That's right, the high-explosive effect of Russian 12-inch shells was absolutely useless. And when they hit unarmored parts of the ship, the fuses either didn't trigger at all or triggered late. Russian RYaV shells are a very sad story in themselves, for a number of reasons.
                      9. 0
                        25 November 2025 12: 07
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Or are you talking about installations in general?

                        Yes, I'm talking about the peculiarities of loading the installations.
                        Well, storing shells and charges in the turret carries the risk of fire and explosion.
                      10. 0
                        25 November 2025 10: 58
                        1. I don't know what you disliked about the 12-inch Fujis—they're the same as all the others, British-made. The main battery turret armor—yes, 152 mm—almost led to disaster.
                        2. Yes, the Russians have more 12-inchers, but not all of them are 40 caliber. There were also older 35 caliber ones, the performance characteristics are worse.
                        3. Yes, there was an upper armor belt, but it didn't protect against large-caliber shells. What other shells would they fire at the EBM? Incidentally, the Mikas have the same belt—152 mm.
                        4. I won’t argue about the rangefinders - I haven’t looked into the matter too much, so I don’t know.
                        5. Everyone knew and understood that there would be an overload before the breakthrough. The equipment may not have been to blame, but it was significant. The squadron speed of the 2nd TSE was 9 knots, compared to 14 knots for the Japanese.
                      11. +4
                        25 November 2025 12: 03
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        3. Yes, there was an upper armor belt, but it didn't protect against large-caliber shells. What other shells would they fire at the EBM? Incidentally, the Mikas have the same belt—152 mm.

                        Specifically, in the Russian Air Force, he defended himself against Japanese land mines.
                        And they fired at the battleships with everything they had, up to 75 mm.
                      12. 0
                        2 December 2025 08: 29
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The Russians' shells can penetrate armor and explode behind it, but the Japanese cannot.

                        The Russians had more rangefinders.


                        As it turned out, damage to deck superstructures also inflicted significant damage on the enemy. It appeared that Japanese shimoza had an effect similar to thermite.

                        Rangefinders, sights... you know, they need to be calibrated from time to time; they get out of alignment during long seas. The technical condition of the fire control systems on Russian ships after long voyages was in a deplorable state.
                        The gunners' training also suffered due to the lack of practical shooting during the long march.
                        The Japanese took all this into account and tried to maintain their distance during the battle. The Russians' hit rate was much lower than their enemy's. The outcome was predictable.
                      13. +4
                        2 December 2025 11: 20
                        Quote: Illanatol
                        As it turns out, damage to deck superstructures also causes significant damage to the enemy.

                        There was nothing important in the superstructures.

                        Quote: Illanatol
                        It appears that Japanese shimoza had an effect similar to thermite.
                        Shimose is a non-phlegmatized picric acid. Sailors and officers of the 2nd TOE attributed its "miraculous" properties to it to justify their defeat.

                        Quote: Illanatol
                        The technical condition of the fire control systems on Russian ships was in a deplorable state after a long voyage.

                        Can you give examples where this system failed due to a long transition?
                      14. -1
                        25 November 2025 00: 58
                        The Japanese focused heavily on preparing for night battles between their squadrons before World War II. It didn't seem to help them much in the Friday the 13th battle. And the following night, in the battle with the Washington and South Dakota, all Japanese preparations were negated by the technology.

                        https://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/ЭСГ/Четырехлетняя_война_1914—1918_г._и_ее_эпоха/III._Техника_в_мировой_войне

                        "In naval warfare, technology is of too obvious a significance compared to the activity and personality of man."

                        "To focus on preparation" without modern technology is to prepare for a past war. I believe that by the beginning of 1904, the Russian Imperial Forces were fully prepared for the Spanish-American War of 1898, both technically and tactically. However, the technology and tactics were not the same as in the Spanish-American War of five years earlier.
                      15. +3
                        26 November 2025 11: 55
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        And the following night, in the battle with the Washington and South Dakota, all Japanese preparations were reduced to zero by technology.

                        Well, what else can you expect if you modernize a battlecruiser, proudly calling it a "battleship," and then send it into battle against a pair of post-Washington battleships? No matter how much you modernize the Kirishima and company, the Washington still has more. smile
                        The day before, the Hiei even managed to get hit by Callaghan's cruiser, which kicked the poor LK, disabling its steering.
                      16. +1
                        26 November 2025 13: 16
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        Well, what else can you expect if you modernize a battlecruiser, proudly calling it a "battleship" - and then send it into battle against a pair of post-Washington battleships.

                        There were distances... but the Kirishima was firing "the wrong type of shells." And at the crucial moment, when the Kirishima spotted the enemy and opened fire on the South Dakota, Kondo decided to perform a 180-degree turn, stealing three valuable minutes of accurate fire from his battleship.

                        And then, the Japanese had a complete advantage in the quantity and quality of their torpedo salvos, but despite launching several dozen torpedoes at the American battleships, they failed to hit a single one because, without exception, they misjudged the enemy's speed. Several dozen torpedoes passed astern of their targets.

                        In general, we were preparing, preparing for night battles... but in this night battle we overdid the organization and... completely screwed up.

                        The Americans also suffered organizational chaos and technical problems. The South Dakota became a floating target, without power or the ability to fire without enemy intervention. But the Washington, lost from both friendly and enemy contact, was operational, and its gunners eventually "solved everything."
                        The day before, the Hiei even managed to get hit by Callaghan's cruiser, which kicked the poor LK, disabling its steering.

                        Again, an illustration of how one side prepared for night battles... and then, completely unaware, "rode" into the enemy lines, leaving the Hiei under fire from a stray American destroyer at point-blank range with small-caliber anti-aircraft guns. If the Americans' torpedoes had exploded, the Hiei would have been torpedoed on the spot, without the whole mess of the twice-upgraded 38-ton "mastodon" being disabled by a 203mm shell fired from an American cruiser.

                        In this case, the Japanese's "overzealous preparation" didn't help. Confident in their "preparedness" for night squadron battles, they devised an overly "cunning plan" to bombard Henderson Field with their "spectacular but ineffective" Type 3 incendiary shells. As a result, instead of an organized night battle, a nighttime "mess" ensued. Because under Rear Admiral Callaghan's command, the enemy found itself "also" with a commander incapable of utilizing the radar information available on the ships assigned to his command. I hope you will forgive my unflattering comments about Rear Admiral Callaghan, who was killed in that battle.
                      17. +2
                        26 November 2025 16: 22
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        And then, the Japanese had a complete advantage in the quantity and quality of their torpedo salvos, but having launched several dozen torpedoes at the American battleships, the Japanese did not hit a single one, because every single one of them incorrectly estimated the enemy’s speed.

                        If I remember correctly, the Japanese fired their first and largest torpedo salvo at the destroyers escorting the battleships. And the second, yes... they epically missed the visually observed SoDak with nearly three dozen torpedoes. smile
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        The South Dakota became a floating target, without power or the ability to fire without any enemy intervention.

                        Well, it all started with a short circuit in the consumer circuits after Japanese shells hit. And then, yes, the electricians connected the main distribution boards sequentially without fixing the cause—the short circuit. And they were disconnected at the input—from the generators. This orgy was only stopped at the last remaining main distribution board, No. 1.
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        Again, an illustration of how one side was preparing for night battles... and then, in complete ignorance, "drove" into the enemy's formation so that the "Hiei" was shot at point-blank by a stray American destroyer with small-caliber anti-aircraft guns.

                        That's right—the IJN was preparing for night battles on their terms. That is, against a pre-reconnoitered enemy. When the Japanese spotted the Americans first and remained undetected themselves, everything went smoothly for them.
                        But here's a counter-fight on the move in style a fight in a bar where the lights went out they didn't count on it. smile
                        Quote: AlexanderA
                        I hope you will forgive me for my unflattering comments about Rear Admiral Callaghan, who died in that battle.

                        Well... the Yankees themselves have a lot of complaints about Callaghan.
        2. +2
          24 November 2025 14: 33
          The General-Admiral was crazy about the Peresvets; the ships were truly beautiful, but they were just a bit crap...
        3. -2
          24 November 2025 15: 46
          Quote: TermNachTER
          What prevented the "Sevastopol" or "Potemkin" from being laid down on this slipway - there was a ready-made design?

          The problem, as usual, is late ignition and a good braking system)
          1. +3
            24 November 2025 15: 57
            The question is, in essence, rhetorical. But since the author has already raised the issue, why not speak up? Russia had the potential to win the Russian Nuclear War, even if its leadership had been less brilliant than merely adequate.
            1. +1
              24 November 2025 16: 16
              if the management wasn't even brilliant, but simply adequate.
              - We have regular problems with this...
              1. 0
                24 November 2025 16: 38
                Everyone has regular problems with this.
            2. -1
              25 November 2025 01: 00
              Quote: TermNachTER
              Russia had the opportunity to win the Russian Nuclear War, even if its leadership had not been brilliant, but simply adequate.

              There were opportunities to win. But not at sea. At sea – no chance.
              1. 0
                25 November 2025 11: 05
                They were also at sea, provided there was adequate leadership. There was even a chance of preventing a nuclear war altogether if sufficient forces had been assembled in the Far East.
    2. +6
      24 November 2025 14: 32
      Quote: TermNachTER
      They are laying down the Gromoboy, although it is no longer needed.

      He-he-he... You will also remember about the bookmark (instead of the EBR and BRCR) of the BRBO "General-Admiral Apraksin" - not provided for by any program, and also with a unique BShGK.
      Quote: TermNachTER
      It would seem clear that there was no longer any talk of any ocean cruising against Britain, but in 1898, the Pobeda was laid down. Although it was clear that she was no longer needed.

      But it can be built quickly. And the transfer of the Potemkin from the Black Sea to St. Petersburg, along with the inevitable changes and additions coordinated through Shpits... well, we'll be around the same time as the Oslyabya.
      Quote: TermNachTER
      They're laying down the Gromoboy, even though it's no longer needed. There's no proper design for a proper armored cruiser.

      It depends on what you mean under normal BRKR.
      Raider? So the "Gromoboy" is perfectly acceptable here. A "pocket EBM" like the Asamoids? What would we need that for?
      If we want superiority over the Asamoids, then we need "Vakantos" and "Okupantos", which will degenerate into the same "Peresvets" in our case. smile
      Quote: TermNachTER
      And the funniest thing is that in 1906 the situation repeated itself: instead of buying the very decent armored cruisers of the Amalfi type from the Italians, they ordered the Bayan II in France and built two identical ones in Russia - complete nonsense.

      They simply seized on a bird in the hand—a combat-tested cruise missile design with the fewest criticisms following the Russian Nuclear War. Even though it was already clear at the time of laying the keel that the ship was underarmed. Subsequently, all pre-war armament projects were thwarted by the notorious cost-cutting measures and a reluctance to explain to the Duma why a weak ship had been ordered.
      IMHO, instead of "Bayanichs" I should have ordered another "Rurik" from Zakharov.
      1. +1
        24 November 2025 15: 01
        1. I don't even want to talk about the BRBO misunderstandings - it's sheer nonsense, which, in general, fits in with a complete lack of logic.
        2. The Oslyabya would have made it to the war, if the squadron hadn't been assigned destroyers and then returned. So, building two Potemkin-class ships instead of the Pobeda and Gromoboi is entirely feasible. Okay, let's not bother with the Black Sea project. Let's just build two Sevastopol-class ships.
        3. The Italian Garibaldians were perfectly suitable ships for the Russian Navy. Not for raiding, of course, but by 1895, it was already clear that raiding would not happen.
        4. So what's so good about "Bayan"? Two "Amalfi" and the "San Giorgio" that follow are the same "Rurik II." With those, there's no need for a second "Rurik" at all.
        1. +4
          24 November 2025 15: 57
          Quote: TermNachTER
          So, the construction of two "Potemkin" ships instead of "Pobeda" and "Gromoboy" is quite realistic.

          Then the Borodinets project, or whoever will replace them, will be delayed. Because quickly building Potemkin-class submarines—full-fledged ballistic missile submarines—will be impossible: armor, turrets, and, most importantly, the MTK and its approval deadlines.
          Quote: TermNachTER
          3. The Italian Garibaldians were perfectly suitable ships for the Russian Navy. Not for raiding, of course, but by 1895, it was already clear that raiding would not happen.

          Aha... they got it, and in 1904 they started working on it. If used tactically correctly, specifically as raiders (sinking the weak, fleeing the strong), the cruise missiles would have been fine for covering communications lines.
          Quote: TermNachTER
          4. What's so good about "Bayan"?

          The fact that everything about it is known in practice. smile
          I'm not saying that "Bayan" was a good project. I'm saying that, based on the results of the Russian Nuclear Forum (RYaV), it generated the fewest criticisms of all the projects the RIF KR had.
          Quote: TermNachTER
          The two "Amalfi" and the "San Giorgio" that follow them are the same "Rurik II".

          It's a pig in a poke. Plus, try pushing the Italian purchase through the Duma. At least the French have a lobby. seven poods and industrialists and bankers associated with France. smile
          1. 0
            24 November 2025 16: 06
            1. If the Far East has five Sevastopols (three Sevastopols + two Potemkins) + Tsarevich and Retvizan + Navarin + Sisoj Velikiy, then five Borodintsy are no longer needed. Two, or maybe three, are enough. Transfer all resources to them and finish construction sooner.
            2. It was possible to order the BrKR in Italy in 1898 instead of the Bayan and receive it much earlier, since there were already several of them in the process of construction.
            3. The "Bayan" is poor in every way—armament, armor, speed, and range. Its performance characteristics, combined with its own, did not meet any of the RIF requirements.
            4. Why the "pig in a poke"? The ships were built and served well in various navies. They were certainly no worse than the Rurik II. This lobby, in 1917, fled the country in its underwear, due to its stupidity.
            1. +4
              25 November 2025 11: 37
              Quote: TermNachTER
              1. If there are five "Sevastopols" (three "Sevastopols" + two Potemkins) + "Tsarevich" and "Retvizan" + "Navarin" + "Sisoy Veliky", then five "Borodintsy" are no longer needed.

              Given the transition to the construction of "Black Sea-style" nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines in the Baltic, another question remains: will there be any "Borodinets" at all?
              Quote: TermNachTER
              2. It was possible to order the BrKR in Italy in 1898 instead of the Bayan and receive it much earlier, since there were already several of them in the process of construction.

              Who will lobby Italy? Especially given French loans and investments? A third of foreign capital investment in Russian joint-stock companies is French. And that's not counting loans.
              The French almost devoured even Vickers - the Tsaritsyn plant was delayed in construction due to the French impediments to a competitor in "their" market.
              1. 0
                25 November 2025 12: 44
                1. I'm not saying that building Potemkin-class submarines in the Baltic is necessary. They're simply superior to Sevastopol-class submarines in terms of performance characteristics and fully meet the requirements of the theater of operations.
                2. This is a question for the military-political leadership: are we following the lead of French lobbyists and losing the Russian Nuclear War, with a subsequent revolution? Or are we working in the interests of the state? The problem is that Japan wasn't taken seriously before the war.
      2. +1
        25 November 2025 18: 06
        P.S. I got into an argument with a comrade and picked up Melnikov's book—it turns out that St. Petersburg had its own version of the "Potemkin," perhaps slightly different, but it was there. When Schott arrived in St. Petersburg in 1897, Gagarin's project was considered alongside his. He even got this project credited as qualifying for promotion to the next rank. So, it wasn't a three-dimensional sketch, but a fully detailed design.
    3. +3
      24 November 2025 20: 20
      Quote: TermNachTER
      The author tries to look for logic where there was none at all.

      You just don't want to see her.
      Quote: TermNachTER
      However, in 1898, the Pobeda was laid down. Although it's clear that it was no longer needed. A proper battleship was needed—a Sevastopol or a Potemkin.

      Potemkin was not suitable (I will go into detail in the following articles), and as for Sevastopol, Peresvet was better in all respects except for the main battery.
      Quote: TermNachTER
      They are laying down the Gromoboy, although it is no longer needed.

      This is a greeting to the Tsar-father, not to the sailors. They didn't want a third Rurik.
      Quote: TermNachTER
      In France they order "Bayan" - it's a completely unimaginable odor

      Which was, perhaps, the best cruiser of the Russian Navy...
      1. -2
        24 November 2025 20: 31
        1. Nyu-nu, tell us the dark ones))
        2. And how were the "Peresvets" better? As for "Potemkin," I'm looking forward to it; it's been a while since I've had a good laugh.
        3. Whether they wanted to or not, however, for some reason no one did anything to somehow change the situation.
        4. About "Bayan" - very interesting, I'm already wiping away tears from laughter)))
        1. +3
          24 November 2025 20: 59
          Quote: TermNachTER
          1. Nyu-nu, tell us the dark ones))

          Why do you talk about yourself in the plural?
          Quote: TermNachTER
          And how were the Peresvets better?

          Everyone. Armor, engines and boilers, drainage systems, hull design, etc., etc. Incidentally, the turret mounts, judging by everything, were also inferior. Overall, only the main battery guns were better.
          Quote: TermNachTER
          As for "Potemkin," I'm looking forward to it; it's been a while since I've had a reason to laugh.

          Since when do you need a reason for this?:)))))
          Quote: TermNachTER
          Whether they wanted to or not, however, for some reason no one did anything to somehow change the situation.

          I'm afraid to even ask what should have been done. A revolution? :))))
          Quote: TermNachTER
          About "Bayan" - it's very interesting, I'm already wiping away tears from laughter)))

          You see, to understand my thesis, you need to know at least a little about the Navy during the Russian Navy. You don't know, and trying to teach you would only ruin your chances.
          There will be a series about "Bayan" someday, of course. But not anytime soon.
          1. -1
            24 November 2025 21: 59
            1. Well, I’m not the only one who’s ignorant here, there are people who share my opinion.
            2. Could you be more specific))) because you've listed practically everything))) point by point, please - what's bad about the "Sevastopols" and what's better about the "Peresvets".
            3. You haven't written anything for a long time - that's why there was no reason, but I hope now it will be fun)))
            4. He could have at least resigned to avoid participating in this mess. He had already earned his admiral's pension.
            5. Well, at least in general terms, what's so good about the "Bayan" that you're making it into the best Russian cruisers of the RYaV period? Otherwise, I'm afraid I won't live to see the series; curiosity will overwhelm me.
        2. +1
          24 November 2025 22: 11
          Quote: TermNachTER
          2. And how were the "Peresvets" better? As for "Potemkin," I'm looking forward to it; it's been a while since I've had a good laugh.

          Speed, seaworthiness, coal reserves, ability to pass through the Suez Canal
          1. -2
            24 November 2025 22: 19
            Speed? In normal service, the Peresvets had a speed of 15,5 knots, while the Sevastopols and Potemkins averaged around 14,5 knots. Why carry so much coal? If there's no war, we can circumnavigate Africa—what's the rush? Did the Japanese fast-moving submarines ever make it?
            1. +3
              24 November 2025 22: 23
              Quote: TermNachTER
              "Sevastopol" has about 14,5 knots

              And when did the Sevastopol sail at 14,5 knots?

              Quote: TermNachTER
              You can also go around Africa

              Will there be enough coal? There's a problem with the port infrastructure there.

              Quote: TermNachTER
              Why a large supply of coal?

              I wrote above.

              Quote: TermNachTER
              Did the Japanese EBRs somehow arrive?

              All via Suez
              1. 0
                24 November 2025 23: 44
                1. "Sevastopol" had a problem with the engine, it was going 12,5, the rest 14,5 knots.
                2. Part 2 of the TOE arrived during the war. What prevented it from happening without the war? What about the Japanese EBRs, which passed through the Suez Canal more than the "Sevastopols"?
                3. The range of the Sevastopols is quite sufficient within the Sea of ​​Japan and the Yellow Sea.
                1. +4
                  24 November 2025 23: 57
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  Part 2 of the TOE arrived during the war.

                  What 2TOE did is akin to a feat.

                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  And what about the Japanese EBRs, which passed through the Suez Canal more than the Sevastopols?

                  That's how the Sevastopoli passed through Suez. Would the Potemkin have failed, naturally due to its draft, or were you thinking of something else?
                  1. -2
                    25 November 2025 10: 46
                    1. A feat is achieved in wartime. Without war, the Potemkin Troops would have sailed around Africa without a problem.
                    2. The Mikasa has a draft of 8,3 meters, the Potemkin has 8,4 meters. Before Suez, unload the ship as much as possible. That's all there is to it.
                    1. +4
                      25 November 2025 10: 56
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      Mikasa has a draft of 8,3 m.

                      The Mikasa has a draft of 8,28 at full displacement and 7,93 at normal displacement.
                      And what about Potemkin?
                      1. -2
                        25 November 2025 11: 00
                        What prevented them from unloading the "Potemkin" at Port Suez as much as possible, even draining the boilers? There were cases where ships were towed through the canal by tugboats. Yes, they would have had to pay for the tugboats' services, but I don't think the cost would have been exorbitant.
                      2. +5
                        25 November 2025 11: 04
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        What prevented the Potemkin from being unloaded to the maximum in Port Suez?

                        Exactly the same thing that prevented the "Borodinites" from passing through the Suez Canal
                      3. -2
                        25 November 2025 11: 07
                        The Borodinites sailed under wartime conditions, when such a process is lengthy and dangerous. I'm talking about what could have happened in 1902-03, before the war. If the Mikasa had a draft of 7,9 meters, then lightening the Potemkin's load by half a meter is entirely possible.
                      4. +3
                        25 November 2025 11: 57
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        then it is entirely possible to unload the Potemkin by half a meter

                        Can you provide a quote? What exactly are you planning to remove from the Potemkin?
                      5. -1
                        25 November 2025 12: 56
                        Everything, or almost everything. Unload coal, fuel, drain water, including from boilers, and supplies.
                      6. +2
                        25 November 2025 14: 03
                        So, write down in tons how much of what you will unload and how this will change the draft.
                      7. 0
                        25 November 2025 15: 36
                        Okay, I'll take Melnikov's book, refresh my memory, and then I'll write.
                      8. 0
                        26 November 2025 13: 07
                        Unfortunately, I couldn't find any information about how the Potemkin's draft changed when cargo was added or subtracted—some ships do. However, I did find Melnikov's report that the Potemkin had a very small overload (by RIF standards) of 400 tons. With a 13,100-ton capacity, its draft is 8,2 meters. This means there's no need to completely unload it before passing through the Suez Canal; it's enough to unload fuel, ammunition, and some other minor items. Rozhestvensky, when he demanded the Potemkin's inclusion in the 2nd Suez Canal Task Force, specified an arrival date at Port Suez. Apparently, he was confident the Potemkin would pass through the canal without any problems.
                      9. +3
                        26 November 2025 14: 50
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Unfortunately, I didn't find out how the Potemkin's draft changed when adding (reducing) cargo - this happens with some ships

                        49,5 tons per 1 inch of draft
                      10. +2
                        26 November 2025 15: 30
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        At VI 13,100 tons

                        Is this a normal displacement? What is the coal capacity?
                      11. 0
                        26 November 2025 16: 14
                        This is what Melnikov wrote. According to the final design, the draft capacity is 12,440 tons; the actual capacity is 12,900 tons. Therefore, 13,100 tons is already overloaded. That is, with a normal draft capacity, it has a draft of about 8,1 meters. About 500 tons more need to be removed, and then it can safely sail through the Suez Canal.
                      12. +2
                        26 November 2025 16: 28
                        If it is necessary to remove 500 tons from the normal displacement, then this is possible, I agree
                      13. +3
                        27 November 2025 09: 30
                        On page 123 of Melnikov's work, we read that Potemkin's design draft was 8,23 ​​m. On page 271, we read that the actual overload resulted in the displacement increasing to 8,4 m (but there, the figures are rounded to tens of centimeters, since the design draft is stated as 8,2 m). This aligns perfectly with your data on 49,5 tons per inch. An overload of 420 tons yields a draft of 21,6 cm, for a total of 8,23 ​​+ 0,216 = roughly 8,446 cm. In normal conditions.
                        Thus, for Potemkin to pass through the Suez Canal, it would need to be unloaded by only 870 tons of its normal displacement, which would give it a draft of 8 m, with which it would probably pass through the canal.
                      14. +2
                        27 November 2025 11: 11
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        only 870 tons less than normal displacement

                        This leaves 200 tons of coal and 38 tons of water in the boilers. The difference from the normal displacement is 764 tons of coal and 106 tons of boiler water.
                        Data on weight distribution and draft changes were taken from the MTC journal on shipbuilding dated March 5, 1903.
                      15. +2
                        27 November 2025 11: 24
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The difference with the normal displacement is 764 tons of coal and 106 tons of boiler water reserves.

                        It doesn't have that much coal, it only has oil. And only 950 tons. And that's from normal, which in reality would be more, no matter how you look at it, but in everyday use, the ship accumulates cargo. And also, the trim needs to be adjusted; under normal conditions, it reached 8,33.
                        In general, theoretically, it's probably feasible, but with significant unloading. But in practice, it's really hard to judge.
                      16. +2
                        27 November 2025 17: 35
                        Potemkin has coal. The oil boilers were removed after a fire during completion.
                      17. +1
                        27 November 2025 18: 10
                        Quote: Vik_Vik
                        Potemkin has coal.

                        Actually, it's both.
                        Quote: Vik_Vik
                        The oil boilers were removed after a fire during completion.

                        Only in one boiler room.
                      18. -1
                        27 November 2025 14: 41
                        Melnikov, R.M., Leningrad "Shipbuilding," 1980, p. 123, states that ballast was added to the double-bottom space to ensure its draft corresponded to the design draft, meaning the draft was less. On p. 271, there's a comparative table with other similar ships, where the draft of the KPT decree is 8,2/8,4, without any specifics on the possible circumstances.
                      19. +1
                        27 November 2025 14: 45
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        that ballast was accepted into the double-bottom space so that its draft would correspond to the design one, which means the draft was less

                        Naturally, it was smaller. Ships in those years regularly went on trials underloaded. Why the hell load them with a normal supply of fuel if they wouldn't need even a third of it during trials? Provisions? Crew? The ship was essentially still being fitted out; often not even all its components were installed, and sometimes they sailed without some of their guns.
                        In general, learn the basics and you will be happy.
                      20. 0
                        27 November 2025 14: 50
                        That is, 8,4 m is the maximum possible draft of the KPT and was most likely calculated purely theoretically, since in reality it was never loaded like that.
                      21. +1
                        27 November 2025 15: 39
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        That is, 8,4 m is the maximum possible draft of the KPT.

                        This is the Potemkin's draft with a displacement of 12,900 tons. Read Melnikov's work. But his figure is rounded up, and the exact figure is 8,44 meters.
                        In reality, of course, she was higher
                      22. -3
                        27 November 2025 16: 40
                        The draft is 8,4 m - this was after the Russian Nuclear War, when about 200 tons of armor were added to the bow and stern.
                      23. +2
                        27 November 2025 18: 19
                        A table from Melnikov is worth a thousand words. And, for those whom God has offended with the inability to read small print, a close-up of the footnote explaining the meaning of the number 2 in the column headings.
                      24. -2
                        27 November 2025 18: 34
                        When exactly? In 1904, 1912, or 1925? Can you read? Although, that's a rhetorical question. I wrote that after the Russian Revolution, 200 tons of armor were added to its armor, and later, perhaps, some other cargo was added. So, perhaps it was 8,4 meters, perhaps more, but it wasn't in 1904.
                      25. +3
                        27 November 2025 18: 40
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Actual when?

                        When the displacement was 12,900 tons. And when the draft was 8,4 m (or more precisely, 8,44 m). Only a unique individual like you can think that Melnikov indicates one actual displacement, and the actual draft is for some other displacement:)))))
                        However, I have already said that teaching you will only spoil you.
                      26. -2
                        27 November 2025 18: 44
                        Where did Melnikov write this?))) Or are you already writing in place of the deceased?)))
                      27. -2
                        27 November 2025 18: 47
                        P.S. Melnikov's table shows VI 12,900 - draft 8,2/8,4 m. Which of them and when?)))
                      28. +1
                        28 November 2025 06: 14
                        Contact your group teacher. She will explain.
                      29. -2
                        28 November 2025 10: 24
                        Well, it's understandable, when we can't continue to "play smart," we start a "blizzard of revenge"))) - good luck in your hopeless endeavor)))
                      30. +1
                        28 November 2025 10: 47
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Well, it's understandable when you can't keep playing smart.

                        Then you start to act like a complete moron, incapable of understanding the simplest table. Good luck:))))
          2. -2
            25 November 2025 01: 09
            Quote: rytik32
            Speed, seaworthiness, coal reserves, ability to pass through the Suez Canal

            All these advantages were irrelevant in squadron artillery combat. As heavy artillery ships for squadron combat, the Peresvets were vastly inferior.
  10. -4
    24 November 2025 14: 44
    After laying down four Brandenburgs, which were quite first-class for their time and armed with 280-mm artillery, the gloomy Prussian genius for some reason switched to 240-mm/40 main caliber guns.

    Such a statement from an author who claims to write some conceptual articles about the Navy raises doubts about the competence of this very author.
    1. -4
      24 November 2025 15: 11
      They're trying so hard to be so glorious, their fur coats are smoking. Can anyone say anything coherent?
      1. +2
        24 November 2025 16: 09
        Quote: Nikname2025
        They're trying so hard to be so glorious, their fur coats are smoking. Can anyone say anything coherent?

        Your attack on the Author, not supported by anything other than “I think so, but the author is not very smart”, they also, you know, are not very up to par
        say something clearly

        Do you think the Brandenburgs are bad and the Kaisers are good?
    2. -3
      24 November 2025 17: 45
      Your comments actually raise doubts about your competence.
    3. +4
      24 November 2025 20: 21
      Doubt yourself, who's stopping you? But if you want dialogue, not a bunch of negatives, take the trouble to criticize constructively.
  11. +1
    24 November 2025 16: 26
    A clash with Japan is more likely a desire of our leadership. After the Russian Nuclear War, we suddenly became allies. Someone simply got involved with concessions in Korea and kickbacks from railway construction. The program, according to the article, is in disarray and confusion. The Black Sea is the priority, but they're building twice as much in the Baltic.
    1. +1
      24 November 2025 16: 42
      There were only two shipyards on the Black Sea that built large ships - that was what it all came down to.
    2. 0
      24 November 2025 19: 22
      A clash with Japan is rather the desire of our leadership
      - rather, the "elite" was cleverly led to this; the British needed to drag the Russian Empire into the "Entente" before WW1, to do this they needed to weaken the Russian Empire militarily, economically, and politically, which is what was done...
    3. +3
      25 November 2025 01: 16
      First, someone diplomatically "squeezed" the Liaodong Peninsula and Port Arthur from the Japanese, which they already considered theirs under the 1895 Treaty of Shimonoseki. After that, a future Russo-Japanese war became inevitable. And the concessions in Korea were just a toy.
      1. +5
        25 November 2025 11: 18
        Quote: AlexanderA
        First, someone diplomatically "squeezed" the Liaodong Peninsula and Port Arthur from the Japanese, which they already considered theirs according to the Shimonoseki Peace Treaty of 1895.

        Yeah... it's just that most people don't understand - what's so special about that?
        Translated into our reality, it would be as if Russia had defeated Turkey and signed a peace treaty ceding the Straits to it. Afterwards, the European powers would have forced Russia to return the Straits to the Turks. And three years later, Britain would have leased the Straits from Turkey, building a naval base and commercial port there. Russia, are you offended or something?
    4. +1
      25 November 2025 10: 35
      Quote: Black cat
      The Black Sea is the priority, but twice as much is being built in the Baltic.

      The Black Sea Fleet has already built everything it needs. Well, almost. The Potemkin is the eighth battleship.
      In fact, the Turkish fleet would have been able to cope with four "Catherine" ships, but it would have been impossible to compete with the British Mediterranean squadron under any circumstances.
      1. 0
        27 November 2025 18: 21
        Even though the first ones are already outdated, even by the most "mild" estimates.
  12. +2
    24 November 2025 20: 32
    quite first-class for its time, the Brandenburgs, which were armed with 280-mm artillery,

    Dear colleague... where is this technical oxymoron considered "first-class"?
    1. 0
      24 November 2025 21: 06
      Good evening! hi
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      Dear colleague... where is this technical oxymoron considered "first-class"?

      Well, they were still listed as 1st class :)))) And in general, I confess, I don’t see any oxymoron in them, they are quite decent ships for the year they were laid down in 1890...
      1. 0
        24 November 2025 21: 36
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Good evening!

        Hello to you, too! hi
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Well, they were still considered 1st class:

        Well, only if they were listed))
  13. 0
    25 November 2025 08: 18
    Quote: TermNachTER
    Accuracy of fire is the result of training artillery officers and sailors, and rangefinders, but by no means the worst performance characteristics of the "Sevastopols."


    And the technical condition of the equipment, as well as the physical condition of the personnel. And also, that the BC was sufficient and that the commanders didn't skimp on gunner training. It would have been nice to have such a force in the Far East at the very beginning of the conflict (with all the necessary infrastructure), rather than being driven out of the Baltic when the fires started. But how realistic was that?
    1. 0
      25 November 2025 18: 19
      That's exactly what I'm saying: the Far East could have had five Sevastopols or three Sevastopols plus two Potemkins, one Tsarevich, one Retvizan, one Navarin, and one Sisoei Velikiy in 1902-03. Nine EBMs against six Japanese ones is a pretty compelling argument. It's just that no one took Japan seriously.
      1. +2
        26 November 2025 08: 38
        Quote: TermNachTER
        That's what I'm talking about: it was possible to have 5 "Sevastopols" or 3 "Sevastopols" in the Far East in 1902-03...


        Do you seriously believe that the power of a navy (or any branch of the military) is determined by the number of combat units? Seriously?
        Imagine if God gave today's Russia 12 AUGs. Does that mean we'll be equal to the Yankees at sea, or not?
        Ships are like chess pieces. It's not enough to have enough pieces on the board; they must be optimally positioned. So it is here... you need not only ships, but also sufficient bases for them, infrastructure, production and fuel bases, logistics, supplies, intelligence, and much more. Grow shells in garden beds? What was the situation with ammunition production in the Far East? Was there enough local coal? And so on.
        The Japanese had everything within easy reach (their partners could easily help), and the Russians needed to replenish their supplies, including manpower. And this wasn't just about the navy. The chances of success in this conflict for the Russian Empire were slim from the start. Well, Russia's defeat was objectively advantageous for its future Entente allies, and it all smacks of a carefully planned scheme. "The Japanese Gambit" (similar to one scribbler's "Turkish Gambit").
        1. +1
          26 November 2025 09: 41
          No, I don't think so. The problem isn't just the number of pawns on the chessboard. Russia was stronger than Japan both economically and demographically. Japan, like today's Banderland, fought with British (American) loans, while Russia fought for its own. The presence of a powerful squadron in the Far East made such a war completely hopeless for Japan. The Japanese were lucky that they could attack the Russian Empire piecemeal.
          Russia doesn't need 12 carrier strike groups; 3-4 are enough. The Americans don't have 12 carrier strike groups either; several aircraft carriers are constantly in maintenance and repair. And lately, they've been working beyond their capacity. Yesterday, the Lincoln left for the Pacific Ocean, having only recently returned. American 36-month schedules for aircraft carriers are running out of steam. Sooner or later, this kind of carrier regime will have an impact.
          1. +1
            26 November 2025 12: 58
            Russia was stronger, I don't deny it. But it's not just the quantity of force that matters, but where it was used. Are you aware of how far the Far East, as a theater of military operations, was from mainland Russia? How difficult and expensive was it to ship everything there from the main centers of the Empire? The Japanese, on the other hand, had everything close at hand, logistics were extremely simplified. Demographics... yes, the Japanese had fewer. But they could deploy their full mobilization potential to the fullest, could use almost their entire armed forces. And Russia? They had to keep the majority of their forces in the west, because there were potential threats there that could cease to be merely potential. Were Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Turkey friendly states to us back then? And what population did we have in the Far East back then, and indeed anywhere east of the Urals? As for reserves, frankly, things weren't exactly stellar.
            Finances... well, the Japanese had external sources of financing, which gave them a head start. Russia's credit lines were cut off, and its own funds were precisely what was needed. How much did they have to borrow to complete the Trans-Siberian Railway? Or are you going to claim their own capital was sufficient? Alas, no. So, excuse me, how did you finance the construction of these "powerful squadrons"?
            Later, after the end of the Russian Nuclear War, they became obsessed with building dreadnoughts. Presumably, not without the help of loans. And how many were actually commissioned before WWI? Were they comparable to England, Germany, or France? At least surpassing the "mighty naval power" Italy?
            Alas, alas, Tsarist Russia was not playing in the Premier League at the time... in fact, it was a second-rate power, as proven by the First World War, and before that, the Russo-Japanese War.

            Well, I agree about the aircraft carriers. Russia doesn't really need attack carriers like the American ones. It needs small escort carriers with a purely fighter carrier group to cover surface ships and submarine patrol areas. And it would be better to develop unmanned attack carriers with AI. And in addition, ocean-going ekranoplans armed with hypersonic weapons and the latest anti-ship missiles.
            1. +3
              27 November 2025 13: 11
              Quote: Illanatol
              Well, I agree about the aircraft carriers. Russia doesn't really need attack carriers like the American ones. It needs small escort carriers with a purely fighter deck force to cover surface ships and submarine combat patrol areas.

              But a small AB won't work. smile
              The displacement of our aircraft carrier is determined by the deck dimensions for the catapults and the main propulsion system that powers them. For air defense aircraft (and especially for air defense aircraft), the most important requirement is the ability to deploy sufficient deck-based AWACS aircraft to ensure 24/7 operation. That is, at least four aircraft.
              The Navy won't have coastal AWACS—they will belong to the Air Force, which always has more important things to do than cover "self-propelled guns." You'll be grateful if the Air Force doesn't take over the Navy's MA for its own purposes.
              1. 0
                28 November 2025 09: 03
                Quote: Alexey RA
                But a small AV won't work. Smile
                The displacement of our aircraft carrier is determined by the dimensions of the deck for placing the catapults and the main propulsion plant that will power these catapults.


                It will work. Aircraft carriers can be built without catapults at all if fighters have sufficient thrust-to-weight ratio and low takeoff and landing speeds. Technically, this is possible, and a ski-jump ramp would be sufficient. I'm not even talking about AI-powered attack drones capable of performing escort functions, providing air cover for surface forces and submarines. Helicopters could also perform air defense functions.
                The Navy cannot have coastal DLROs by definition, but they are quite possible for the Navy laughing , that is, to be part of the BO.
                1. +1
                  28 November 2025 12: 40
                  Quote: Illanatol
                  The functions of the DLRO can also be assigned to helicopters.

                  It won't work - in this case, the small aircraft carrier's air group will consist half of AWACS helicopters.
                  Quote: Illanatol
                  The Navy cannot have coastal DLROs by definition, but they are entirely possible for the Navy, that is, they can be part of the BO.

                  The Navy can have whatever it wants. But our Navy must have its own AWACS—otherwise, there won't be any AWACS at all in the air defense of naval units.
                  And what about the AWACS as part of the combat mission... how much time will it take to fly from the airfield to the duty zone and back? And how much will the number of AWACS need to be increased to compensate for these flights, given 24/7 operation?
                  1. +1
                    29 November 2025 13: 08
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    It won't work - in this case, the small aircraft carrier's air group will consist half of AWACS helicopters.


                    No, four, in shifts, would be enough. Incidentally, Soviet-era aircraft carriers used helicopters for this purpose. The coverage area was insufficient back then, but today it can be increased; technology is improving.

                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    The Navy can have whatever it wants. But our Navy must have its own AWACS—otherwise, there won't be any AWACS at all in the air defense of naval units.
                    And what about the AWACS as part of the combat mission... how much time will it take to fly from the airfield to the duty zone and back? And how much will the number of AWACS need to be increased to compensate for these flights, given 24/7 operation?


                    Satellites can also partially perform reconnaissance and target designation functions.
                    This depends on how far from the shore these patrol zones are located. Our fleet is primarily shellfish, staying close to our home shores.
                    1. 0
                      3 December 2025 15: 18
                      Well, four shifts wouldn't be enough. To cover the same sector as a Hawkeye, you'd need two British Crowsnest or our Ka-27 or Ka-31. So, if the Americans have five Hawkeyes, they'd need eight to ten AWACS helicopters.
              2. 0
                3 December 2025 15: 13
                Well, a carrier-based AWACS aircraft, for the Ulyanovsk, I think the Yak-44 was already "in the final stretch." For smaller aircraft, an AWACS aircraft is not feasible. It's being replaced by an AWACS helicopter, like on the Lizka and Kuza (Indian and Chinese aircraft). This is certainly inferior, but with sufficient aircraft available, it's a perfectly viable option.
  14. +1
    25 November 2025 19: 25
    Things got to the point that the Black Sea "Prince Potemkin Tavrichesky" was almost laid down in the style of the "Peresvet"

    That is, in a situation where Russia had decided to storm the Turkish straits in 1897, and the operation had been successful, would they have received another Peresvet?!
  15. +1
    26 November 2025 08: 45
    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
    Excuse me, but why do the British need this?


    Seriously, why strike at the enemy's key industrial centers and bases in a war? True gentlemen don't do that. laughing
    I wonder if the English were also delicate with the major cities of Germany during World War II or not?
    It's generally accepted that the Yankees, not the British, made the main contribution to naval warfare during World War II. I strongly suspect that without the Yankees' help, their industrial potential, and Lend-Lease, not only the British Navy but England as a whole would have had problems.
    1. 0
      26 November 2025 12: 28
      I strongly suspect that without the help of the Yankees
      - There's no need to suspect anything here, the British would have been done for, we would have managed without Lend-Lease, it would have taken longer, with a greater number of victims
    2. 0
      26 November 2025 19: 13
      Quote: Illanatol
      Seriously, why strike at the enemy's important industrial centers and bases in a war? True gentlemen don't do that.

      It seems to me that the raids of "Force 1000" on German cities are somewhat different from the Grand Fleet's campaign in the mouths of the Weser and Elbe...
      1. 0
        27 November 2025 08: 08
        It seems – cross yourself. The means are different, but the goals and objectives could well be similar.
        Another matter is the degree of possibility of implementation.
        And the destruction of the main German naval base in Kiel would definitely play into the hands of the Entente as a whole.
        1. 0
          27 November 2025 17: 54
          Quote: Illanatol
          Another matter is the degree of possibility of implementation.

          This is where you should have started, and not engage in demagoguery...
  16. +1
    26 November 2025 14: 44
    Strategically, of course, the situation was disgusting, especially against the backdrop of an underdeveloped industry.
  17. 0
    28 November 2025 09: 06
    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
    This is where you should have started, and not engage in demagoguery...


    You really should have held off on your "two cents." You're asking, "Why is this necessary?" and then you yourself admit that the British Navy simply wasn't up to the task. The British were dealt a severe blow, so they didn't dare take such action. It's not like fighting sailing ships, like in the Crimean War...
    1. +2
      28 November 2025 17: 49
      Quote: Illanatol
      You should have refrained from your "5 cents" altogether.

      Excuse me, but are you setting the rules for who can write what? :)

      Quote: Illanatol
      "Why is this necessary?" you then admit that the British Navy simply wasn't up to the task. The British were already in trouble, so they didn't dare take such action.

      You are a funny conversationalist: You proposed an absurd idea, and now you are trying to attribute it to me.
      Or did I write this? laughing
      Quote: Illanatol
      So they would have launched (or at least they did, or just promised) 20 dreadnoughts to sea... and then? Now, if these combat units had appeared in the roadsteads of Hamburg and Kiel and at least shelled those cities, and British destroyers (or light cruisers) had entered German rivers, it would have been an undoubted sensation.
      1. 0
        29 November 2025 12: 59
        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
        You are a funny conversationalist: You proposed an absurd idea, and now you are trying to attribute it to me.


        The idea isn't absurd at all; it's entirely practical, if only it could be implemented. You were the one expressing doubts, saying there's no need to strike strategically important targets with naval forces.
  18. +2
    1 December 2025 00: 43
    Quote: bayard
    But we couldn't build such ships fast enough back then. And we needed to build them VERY fast—we were a couple of years behind the Japanese in terms of laying down ships.

    You'll remember why Slava didn't make it to the 2nd TOE. It wasn't a matter of the battleship type.
  19. +2
    1 December 2025 09: 49
    Thank you very much, Andrey. As always, a wonderful article.
  20. 0
    1 December 2025 13: 56
    Quote: Rakovor
    I disagree about WWII. Despite all the problems their navy had in the interwar period, the British performed quite well there.


    What's the merit? Perhaps the most meritorious episode was when the British sailors, trying to save their own asses, abandoned their transports (that same PQ-17).
    1. +1
      1 December 2025 19: 03
      Quote: Illanatol
      Perhaps the most worthy episode was when the English sailors, saving their asses, abandoned the transports (the same PQ-17).

      The question should not be considered from the standpoint of “abandoned/not abandoned,” but from the standpoint of “Why did the Admiralty give the order to disband the convoy?”
      There are many versions on this topic, but there are no documented answers.
      The British threatened to declassify all documents on PQ-17 by the 75th anniversary (2017), but so far there has been silence.
      I think we will never know the true reason for the disbandment of the convoy.
      1. 0
        2 December 2025 08: 16
        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
        The question should not be considered from the standpoint of “abandoned/not abandoned,” but from the standpoint of “Why did the Admiralty give the order to disband the convoy?”
        There are many versions on this topic, but there are no documented answers.


        You may need it, but others don't. The fact remains: valiant English sailors, led by admirals, abandoned their comrades to the mercy of the enemy, to be slaughtered, out of fear of the Tirpitz. Even I, a landlubber, prefer the principle: "Die yourself, but rescue your comrade."
        And don't try to dive in a puddle: the higher-ups simply feared responsibility for the more than likely losses of the British fleet in a potential battle with a powerful German battleship. They were saving their careers and their asses, valuing them more than the lives of the transport sailors.
        1. +1
          2 December 2025 18: 21
          Quote: Illanatol
          You may need it, but others may not.

          If we approach the issue of disbanding the convoy from the point of view of rabid propaganda, then yes, you are undoubtedly right...
          But if you start looking at the documents, a somewhat different picture emerges.

          Quote: Illanatol
          The fact remains: the valiant English sailors, led by admirals, abandoned their comrades to the mercy of the enemy, out of fear of the Tirpitz.

          If you served in the army, you had to remember two rules:
          1. The last order is always carried out.
          2. The order is first executed and then appealed.
          Hamilton's 1st Cruiser Squadron was scheduled to leave PQ-17 on the evening of July 3 and switch to covering the return convoy QP-13, but Hamilton persuaded Tovey to agree to proceed further east with the convoy under his own responsibility. He planned to turn west around midnight on July 4/5. Since the tankers remained to the west, Hamilton decided to refuel his destroyers from the cruisers. During the refueling, an Admiralty order arrived to withdraw west. Hamilton was forced to abort the refueling and turn west.
          The situation with the 1st Escort Group is more interesting. After the order to disband Convoy Capt. 1, Broome received no further orders regarding EG-1. He then inquired about the situation with the senior commander on the ground, Rear Admiral Hamilton, who reported that the cruisers were most likely on their way to intercept the Tirpitz. Broome then divided the escort group: the fast ships with torpedo tubes were to proceed with the 1st Cruiser Squadron, while the slower escorts remained with the convoy and proceeded east.
          So the root of the evil is the order to disband the convoy.

          Quote: Illanatol
          They saved their careers and their asses, valuing them more than the lives of the transport sailors.

          "Turtle" Hamilton later privately appealed the Admiralty's orders, but even for such "insubordination" he was decommissioned and served as the commander of the Malta naval base.
          1. 0
            3 December 2025 15: 24
            There are more than enough examples of British sailors fighting bravely against superior odds. The problem of the loss of PQ-17, Churchill and Pound. I can't remember which British author wrote: "PQ-17 was sacrificed not to the God of war, but to the devil of secret politics."
            1. 0
              3 December 2025 17: 31
              Quote: TermNachTER
              There are more than enough examples of British sailors fighting bravely against superior enemy forces.

              Of course. The New Year's battle alone is worth it.

              Quote: TermNachTER
              The problem of the demise of the PQ-17, Churchill and Pound. I can't remember which British author wrote: "The PQ-17 was sacrificed not to the God of war, but to the devil of secret politics."

              As I already said, we are unlikely to know the truth...
      2. 0
        3 December 2025 15: 20
        Churchill's "Solomon's decision" - ships will leave British ports, but will not reach Soviet ones.
  21. +2
    1 December 2025 13: 58
    We eagerly await the continuation, so that we can continue to delight in calculating millimeters of armor, the number of guns, speed nodes, and the "stupidity of the leadership under the spire." wassat (unit of measurement missing)
    But the topic is certainly very interesting. drinks
    1. +1
      3 December 2025 15: 26
      You can enter the unit yourself - one "vitgeft" or one "pound")))
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  23. 0
    2 December 2025 08: 40
    Quote: Trapper7
    This is called escaping the battlefield with your shoes down.


    So the British did win after all? Why didn't they capitalize on their success and take full advantage of the moment? "We'll crush the Teutonic vermin in their lair!" The victorious British battleships would have stormed the main German naval base and razed it to the ground, like Sevastopol in the Crimean War. Maybe they would have even brought in some landing troops? Well, like at Gallipoli... although Gallipoli didn't exactly go over well for the Brits either. laughing

    One thing Anglo-Saxons are truly unbeatable at is self-promotion. They can turn any piece of crap into something sweet for themselves.
    The tradition is long-standing. It's enough to recall the "defeat of the Invincible Armada." A victory, indeed, is a victory, vividly described. It's often forgotten that there were several "invincible armadas" in that war with Spain (two were English, the second failed spectacularly, burying the career of Francis Drake), and that England lost the war to Spain, with the peace treaty concluded on Spanish terms.
    And yes, the "Mistress of the Seas"'s opponents have lost time and time again. It's unclear, though, how it came to be that the current Royal Navy is actually weaker than the navies of Japan or China?
    The late Admiral Nelson, in the afterlife, cursed his descendants with obscene language for this situation. tongue
    1. +1
      3 December 2025 10: 23
      Quote: Illanatol
      So the English won after all?

      Of course. Heavy losses don't mean defeat in battle.
      Why didn't they build on their success and take full advantage of the moment? "Let's crush the Teutonic vermin in its lair!" The victorious British battleships would have stormed the main German naval base and razed it to the ground.

      They are not crazy.
      like Sevastopol in the Crimean War.

      With all due respect, Anatoly, could you please tell us about that moment in history when the British fleet stormed the Sevastopol roadstead and "destroyed everything there to the ground"?
  24. 0
    2 December 2025 13: 49
    author
    4. The emergence of cemented armor... coal

    I have a question: why didn't they consider physically improving the protection by enlarging the coal magazines along the side? The range would have increased along the way. Wasn't that ineffective in terms of mass?
    1. +2
      2 December 2025 16: 53
      Quote: multicaat
      Why didn't they consider physically improving the protection by increasing the dimensions of the coal cellars along the side?

      They already took up almost all the available space. If the ship were made wider, the speed would drop.
      1. 0
        3 December 2025 09: 08
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        If you make the ship wider, the speed will decrease.

        But in reality, our ships were already sailing at much lower speeds than their design speeds. So what difference does it make? The Americans, for example, weren't particularly concerned about the width of the first dreadnoughts and didn't care about the drop in speed.
        1. +1
          3 December 2025 09: 51
          Quote: multicaat
          but in fact our ships were already moving at a speed much lower than their design speed.

          Typically, a ship's speed in daily operation is a knot or two below its rated speed. "Much slower" refers to the Far East, given the poor ship repair infrastructure. If ships received repairs on time, their speed was often fine.
          1. 0
            3 December 2025 10: 10
            I may be wrong, but it seems to me that with a ship's reasonable maneuverability, long-range main battery artillery, and the appropriate station equipment with rangefinders and computers, as well as crew training in group maneuvering (like the Germans), the crossing-T tactic could have been eliminated, and therefore speed was not a primary factor for a battleship. Overall, I'm not at all convinced that such an emphasis on ship speed was appropriate. For the goals pursued by the Russian Navy, it wasn't a necessary factor, and the concept could have been modified.
            1. +2
              3 December 2025 10: 38
              Quote: multicaat
              and therefore, for the battle fleet, speed was not a primary factor.

              In many ways, this is a valid point. It just doesn't take into account that everything you've said is completely inapplicable to the EBMs of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, when there were no rangefinders or computers, and the ideal range to hit a battleship's citadel was no more than 20-25 cable lengths (see tables at the end of the linked article).
              https://topwar.ru/256153-snarjady-i-bronja-russko-japonskoj-vojny-uroki-i-vyvody.html
              and there were no prerequisites for increasing the range of fire combat
              https://topwar.ru/255691-o-neozhidannom-dlja-nashih-admiralov-roste-distancij-morskih-srazhenij-russko-japonskoj-vojny.html
              1. +1
                3 December 2025 10: 59
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                the distance from which the battleship's citadel could be hit did not exceed 20-25 cables

                As far as I remember, during the Battle of Tsushima, our 12-inch guns hit several times from distances of 20+ cable lengths, i.e., they were quite capable of fighting at such a distance.
                V. E. Grevenits, flagship artillery officer of the Vladivostok cruiser detachment, blamed the low accuracy not on rangefinders, sights, guns, or gunners, but on shortcomings in fire control methods, caused by a lack of practical experience. The cruiser Rossiya, whose gunners were constantly improving their skills, demonstrated good results at a range of 56 to 40 cables.

                i.e., it was entirely possible that this could have radically changed the course of the battle.
                Moreover, the squadron had time during the campaign for training.
                well and in general in the article
                https://slavdok.mirtesen.ru/blog/43953552522/TSusima-Faktoryi-tochnosti-russkoy-artillerii
                It was stated that it was possible to radically increase the effective firing range by three times using available organizational methods and improving the protection of data transmission systems from posts, but the admirals did not think about this.
                Incidentally, the British, the acknowledged leaders at sea at the time, only became seriously concerned with this issue when they had already built a dreadnought and discovered that they could not use it even at half its intended capacity.
        2. 0
          3 December 2025 15: 27
          The Americans had a very serious issue - the width of the locks of the Panama Canal when it was built.
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