Military Review

OICW program and its results

42
I think everyone knows about the most ambitious, in my opinion, failure in the world of manual firearms. weapons under the name of Objective Individual Combat Weapon. This program to create a new weapon has pulled out huge amounts of money from the US budget, which, on the one hand, cannot but rejoice, on the other hand comes an understanding that it’s useless to search for common sense in any country, even in the one where they can count money . The final chord (perhaps final) of this entire event was the adoption of an attempt to somehow justify the money spent, namely XM25 with the big name “Punisher”, “Hangman” in our opinion, although some prefer the “Punisher”. In general, there was a good reason to remember the whole history OICW programs.


The beginning was the proposal received from Fort Brenning infantry school, the proposal was formulated correctly, but as usual, the idea was refined, distorted and even, one might say, perverted. The main essence of the proposal was to develop a rifle-grenade launcher complex, which would be distinguished by high efficiency, was balanced, in general, it was what the weapon with a rifle grenade launcher mounted under the barrel usually is not. It was decided to adjust the balance of the weapon with the help of a not quite standard layout of the grenade launcher with respect to the rifle one. So the barrel of the grenade launcher is located at the top, and the barrel of the machine gun is at the bottom. The main idea of ​​increasing the effectiveness was that the grenade launcher would explode not on the ground, but in the air near the target, but no one would suggest anything about achieving it. It seems to be all logical and correct, if it didn’t occur to someone that the century of high technologies and electronics was (1986 was the year then) and instead of solving the problem by an easy way, they decided to give the weapons and the grenade launchers themselves “brains” that took a lot of years.

The task of undermining a grenade shot near the target in the air, and not on the ground or in a collision with an obstacle, was decided as follows. The grenade launcher itself has a time-programmed fuse, the weapon has a rangefinder from which the distance to the target is read. Thus, the speed of the missile projectile and the distance is known, well, well, calculate the time and ask it to the fuse is the simplest thing. As a result, it becomes possible to hit the enemy behind a cover, say, a wall or in a trench. It is enough to direct the weapon in the direction of the enemy, measure the distance and press the trigger, the grenade launcher itself will explode in the air, which will not only provide better fragmentation of fragments, but also the ability to hit the enemy in cases where conventional grenade launchers are useless.

OICW program and its resultsAll would be nothing if not one but. But this consists in the fact that the grenade launcher part had to be self-loading, and the weight of the whole complex should have been reasonable, it was still planned to make such weapons basic for the army. As a result of the fulfillment of these simple requirements, it was necessary to reduce the caliber of a grenade launcher shot, and reduce it quite a lot. It was originally planned to create a grenade-shot caliber of the entire 20 millimeters. The result of this reduction was the flawless operation of the system as a whole, but with the defeat of the enemy there were problems. Since reducing the size of the grenade shot and led to a decrease in the total weight, respectively, the weight of the fragments, as well as their number decreased. Thus, on the one hand, it seems that the efficiency by the method of detonation in the air was increased, but at the same time it decreased due to the reduction in weight and the number of fragments.

The basis for the rifle part of the complex was originally decided to take G36, but, of course, not in the original, of course, variant, but there are no significant changes in the design. The most important change was the reduction in the length of the barrel of the weapon, and such a decrease that our "Ksyusha" nervously smokes aside. Naturally, this led to a decrease in the accuracy of the weapon, as well as overheating of the barrel during intensive shooting. If you do not consider these negative qualities, the weapon turned out to be stable due to the weight, but it is well balanced, but if it cannot shoot normally, then who needs these qualities.

The problem with the rifle unit was decided by installing a barrel of normal length, which increased the overall length of the weapon, but with a grenade launcher it was not so simple. Taking into account the fact that the grenade launcher part had to be self-loading, and the weapon itself had to weigh so much so that the soldier could at least move somehow, then the forty millimeter shots were abandoned initially. Twenty-millimeter dropped due to low efficiency, as a result, it was decided to increase the caliber to 25 millimeters. The effectiveness of this was not equal to the forty-millimeter grenade launcher, but was already above the original version. In addition, around the weapon they were perverted for a very long time, but they did not manage to achieve an acceptable result, although a lot of money was spent, and time should also be taken into account. When it came to the realization that no result could be achieved and the intended weapon would never be perfect, it was decided to draw at least something from the project to justify the money spent.

So the automatic grenade launcher HM307 appeared. The idea turned out to be very interesting, especially since with a fairly quick replacement of individual parts, the grenade launcher turned into a large-caliber machine gun for the .50BMG cartridges. The project was almost completed and the final result was very effective, despite the small effectiveness of the grenade launcher used, but the weapon has not yet been officially adopted. The reason was that it could be understood even at the design stage of a manual rifle-and-grenade launcher complex, namely the cost of grenade launchers. Naturally, with the established mass production, the cost of smart ammunition would be lower than with small-scale assembly, but there are two points: the cost would still remain quite high and would be more than the cost of forty-millimeter grenade launchers; during mass production, the quality of products inevitably falls and, in the absence of normal quality control, the defect can go beyond the walls of the plant. In general, they missed with this weapon, although who knows, maybe it will be adopted in the near future and it will be distributed.

Since it was very tempting to throw at the enemy with small grenades that would explode when approaching the target, but at the same time it turned out to be too expensive, it was decided to return to handguns. Since, by definition, such weapons had less ammunition, besides, small dimensions and weight significantly increased the mobility of the weapon, making it more flexible to use, this idea was accepted with a bang and a short work began on creating the first sample, which subsequent escalated into HM25.


At its core, the HM25 is still the same initial design of a hand-gun grenade launcher complex, but now only in the form of a grenade launcher. The weapon is a self-loading hand grenade launcher in the layout of bullpup caliber 25 millimeters. Automation is built according to the scheme with removal of powder gases from the barrel, the barrel is locked by turning the shutter. Firing on single targets can be carried out at a distance of up to 500 meters, group targets up to 700 meters, which is quite good. Separately, it is worth noting that the weapon can work as the most common grenade launcher, that is, without electronics. But, naturally, this will not be the case anyway, although on condition that the electronics can refuse this is a very useful and prudent feature. The weapon itself is almost completely plastic, which is rather a minus. But the weight of the device, thanks to this, was reduced to five and a half kilograms. According to reviews of those who have had the opportunity to use these weapons, a grenade launcher significantly increases the effectiveness of the detachment, especially in the city. Although the weapon is kicked off decently, but sometimes it can be used to solve problems that would be impossible for another weapon.

In general, in my opinion, it is not practical to use 25 millimeter shots for a grenade launcher, and in general in this case it is ungrateful to go the way of reducing the caliber. All the same, but in the caliber 40 or at least 30 millimeters would be much more effective, although there are some nuances. Unfortunately, this is far from clear to everyone, but some people know how to think with their heads, as evidenced by the very effective result of conducting a similar program to create advanced infantry weapons, which was carried out in Australia, full-fledged grenade launchers of 40 millimeters are used there. In general, the weapon is interesting, some tasks are performed flawlessly, but some points could have been done much better.
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42 comments
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  1. Yankuz
    Yankuz April 29 2013 08: 17 New
    -3
    It seems that our gunsmiths stopped in their development somewhere in the twentieth century. It's time to wake up - turn on the brains and begin the development of promising small arms systems. At least at the stage of scientific and technical experiments.
    1. Mikhado
      Mikhado April 29 2013 08: 28 New
      12
      Quote: Yankuz
      It seems that our gunsmiths stopped in their development somewhere in the twentieth century. It's time to wake up - turn on the brains and begin the development of promising small arms systems. At least at the stage of scientific and technical experiments.

      OURS are all right with the brains, and why the hell do we step on this expensive rake? We did a splinterproof jumpsuit, that's the answer.
      Give EACH infantryman did not succeed even the simplest grenade launcher - for many reasons. And such a grenade launcher can become only one of the options for weapons supporting the level of squad-platoon.
      1. Yankuz
        Yankuz April 29 2013 10: 03 New
        -3
        I am not talking about that.
        1. Canep
          Canep April 29 2013 10: 53 New
          13
          While there will be no breakthrough in the field of ammunition, something new in the field of weapons can not be expected. The design of modern small arms has been brought to perfection, so nothing has been invented for the last half century. In terms of ammunition, this can be a cartridgeless cartridge, liquid powder, or some kind of electromagnetic crap. In other areas, a breakthrough is needed. Modern weapons are based on two breakthroughs 1 - a unitary cartridge (allowed to simplify loading), 2 - smokeless powder (allowed to fire bursts).
          1. anomalocaris
            anomalocaris April 29 2013 10: 57 New
            +4
            I absolutely agree.
          2. Pimply
            Pimply April 29 2013 12: 32 New
            -1
            And how does such a breakthrough appear? That's it on similar studies.
      2. Pimply
        Pimply April 29 2013 12: 32 New
        0
        Then, that progress is a trial and error method. And in order to develop, you need to experiment, search, go ahead. The Americans are coming.
        1. leon-iv
          leon-iv April 29 2013 13: 24 New
          +6
          in order to develop, you need to experiment, seek, go ahead. The Americans are coming.

          Question Where?
          What really was a breakthrough in this live? I do not see.
      3. Joker
        Joker April 29 2013 15: 26 New
        +2
        And this is especially for skeptics hi
        Futuristic weapons that allow soldiers to hit targets hiding behind walls will go into service with special forces, despite an incident this year that injured a soldier. It is reported by USnews.com.

        The Pentagon’s budget requests included 69 million dollars for the purchase of 1400 of the so-called “Counter Defilade Target Engagement System” ХМ25 “Punisher” (“The Punisher”).

        ХМ25 allows soldiers to shoot at an enemy who has hidden, for example, in a trench or behind a wall ("in natural shelter"). The soldiers can determine the exact distance to the target with a specially designed and attached to the weapon device with a laser rangefinder and a computer program, the data of which is entered into the memory of the munition fuse. After determining the distance to the obstacle where the enemy is hiding, the final manual adjustment is performed so that the grenade explodes behind the obstacle directly above the target with fragments down.

        The system is manufactured at ATK's Arlington, Virginia plant.

        In the 2011 and 2012 years, the U.S. Army completed the 18-month evaluation of the new weapons.

        The US Army plans to purchase a total of 10876 units: two XM25 each in the infantry division and one in the special forces group.

        In February of this year, during training firing with live grenades, one of the systems exploded, injuring a firing soldier. After this incident, the U.S. Army shut down the system, according to MiltaryTimes.com.

        The analysis revealed that the cause of the explosion was the “wrong feeding sequence”, which caused the grenade to misfire and another grenade to explode.

        “ХМ25 is currently undergoing an additional comprehensive safety assessment to determine the risk of any other potential malfunctions,” US Army spokeswoman Dov Schwartz told US News. “The program will require additional time to test and incorporate the recommended corrective actions.”

        Tests of the ХМ25 continue at the Aberdeen Army Test Site in Maryland and at the ATK Test Grounds. The developers have made almost 130 various design improvements.

        It would not hurt us to begin the development of promising models of weapons, because apart from the AK-12, there’s nothing new at all and the AK-12 can be called a new one with a huge stretch, in fact, they improved the quality and made an external upgrade. IMHO that's what you need to strive for.
        1. anomalocaris
          anomalocaris April 29 2013 17: 36 New
          +5
          So what?
          So someone can clearly explain to me what exactly is this notorious SCAR superior to the same AK-74M or M-16? Screaming about modularity and attachments are not perceived, because already tired of answering them.
          1. Pimply
            Pimply April 29 2013 18: 44 New
            -6
            Well, about the same thing as distinguishing a modern good western car from a penny. Like the same wheels, and they can go, right?
            1. anomalocaris
              anomalocaris April 29 2013 18: 55 New
              +6
              That is fundamentally nothing.
              By the way, a good western car, what would you know, can only drive along a good western road, but a penny can creep in where not every imported jeep dares to appear. So it’s like the same wheels, even wider and with a bunch of patented sky-highs, cool design, super materials, only in real life it is suitable only as an expensive accessory.
              1. Joker
                Joker April 29 2013 19: 17 New
                -2
                Then you don’t ride a penny wink Why then if a person has 300 000 p. he will buy used a foreign car and not a new VAZ? In order to understand why modularity is needed, I advise you to read the blog of a person serving in the Russian Federation http://karden.livejournal.com/ everything is detailed there, but the bottom line is that it’s easier to take a modular machine than to carry with a weapon of various types. I’ll tell you both the assault rifle and the sniper rifle and PP for fighting in buildings, you just need to bring along the 3 barrel and various attachments, it weighs very little, for which the fighter will be ready. Next, the use of the latest materials, the build quality once in 10 is better than that of the AK, much more reliable than the M-16 with the same accuracy, very convenient ergonomics, for example, the butt of the AK-12 is laced with Scar. There was already an article about Alpha veterans and special forces competitions, where did the fighters say what ours said? That Western weapons are much better than ours. Of course, AK is reliable and simple as 3 pennies, but it would be better to rework automation in it to reduce returns, make it modular and use the latest materials, do you agree with me? And if you also improve the build quality, then in general there will be candy. Do you see at Skar what quality of all parts and assembly? I’m not saying that you need to buy weapons from the west, you need to develop your own, but it’s time already from redecorating, moving on to truly modernization.
                1. anomalocaris
                  anomalocaris April 29 2013 20: 26 New
                  +6
                  Oh, how I want to look at you hung with modules, in a super impenetrable vest, with a noctovisor, a thermal imager, and with triple ammunition. And what would you have gone quite a bit with all this happiness ... Well, at least 150 kilometers in the taiga, well, at least for a week ...
                  Tired already, the great computer warriors.
                  1. Retriever
                    Retriever 3 May 2013 18: 55 New
                    +1
                    No, he is partly right, but only partly. Linear units are delivered to the battlefield on the BMP and they don’t walk much on their own, crawl more))). But he does not pay attention to the fact that we have everything described by him that is and is being introduced. He himself refers to the AK-12 and does not see that the described problems are solved in it. Although yes there is one drawback, it does not look like a blaster from the future.
                2. sedoj
                  sedoj April 29 2013 22: 15 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Joker
                  I’ll tell you both the assault rifle and the sniper rifle and PP for fighting in buildings, you just need to take 3 barrels and various attachments with you, it weighs very little, because the fighter will be ready for any situation. Next, the use of the latest materials, build quality is 10 times better than that of AK, much more reliable than M-16 with the same accuracy, very convenient ergonomics,


                  Yes, as they say: in the wrong hands, HE is always thicker.
                  1. Retriever
                    Retriever 3 May 2013 19: 01 New
                    0
                    Ha ha 3 trunks. how funny he wrote, laughed. And why doesn’t anyone look at what distance does a small impulse cartridge break through a combined-class 4 bulletproof vest. All modern weapons are designed to fight against partisans and rebels, against regular troops it is not very effective. You can certainly use 7,62 but unfortunately, new cartridges are not developed for this caliber.
                3. Ghenxnumx
                  Ghenxnumx April 30 2013 08: 45 New
                  +3
                  Let me give you a quote from the international class CCM on shooting, which he cited in a dispute about the advantages and disadvantages of weapons with the Israelis:
                  Quote: Stalker Senior
                  Personally, MY experience was enough for me (25 years of professional work with weapons and 400 trunks of OWN working arsenal) to understand the following:
                  1) All things being equal, I ALWAYS prefer the AK ANY M-Series rifle. I will not explain why. "I myself am a great ancestor" (c) - i.e. I believe in my experience more than any conclusions of any authorities. It doesn't matter who they are or where they live.
                  2) The machine gun should be as simple and reliable in battle as possible. This is AXIOM. Negev does not fully satisfy these qualities, alas ... The choice is made in favor of a PC. By the way, a year ago, the question with the Negev was discussed by your compatriots and, possibly, colleagues, they came to the conclusion that I never lied and was not mistaken ...
                  3) For 100 meters in a cigarette pack from the Negev? No question, I got it. Solitary. The fact that you do not see her from such a distance - alas, I can not help you. You’ll shoot at the international class of shooting on the CCM - and you can.

                  http://airsoftgun.ru/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=55440&start=350
                  And finally - did you shoot with the AK-100 series and AEK-971 (973) yourself? If not, try it - I guarantee a lot of positive impressions.
                4. Retriever
                  Retriever 3 May 2013 18: 51 New
                  0
                  And the AK-12 you already mentioned, which is your opinion, contains everything you mentioned in it. You are obsessed with the old name AK and don’t see that the build quality, design, and impact are implemented in the new machine.
          2. lesnik.
            lesnik. April 29 2013 19: 54 New
            +3
            So someone can clearly explain to me what exactly is this notorious SCAR superior to the same AK-74M or M-16?

            Any body kit is an imbalance and excess weight. For AK, / personally for me /, you can add a butt-adjustable length and a collimator sight. Everything else is cheap show-offs and marketing.
            1. anomalocaris
              anomalocaris April 29 2013 20: 29 New
              +3
              I know this, but how can I bring this understanding to some of those present here?
              There have already been disputes on this topic on this site.
              1. Joker
                Joker April 29 2013 22: 00 New
                0
                Well, yes, probably some stupid people work in spn, they put unnecessary collimators laughing Of course, you’ll forgive me, but 21 is a century in the yard, and you are all overgrown with moss. Oh yes, probably this device was also invented for beauty, it’s easier in the old fashioned way, to write formulas on a piece of paper, and to measure the wind speed with a pointed finger hi
                Barrett Firearms has developed an integrated ballistic calculator / optical sight system known as BORS for shooting at distances up to 2500 meters using certain models of optical sights manufactured by Leupold and Nightforce. BORS is essentially both a bullet trajectory compensation sensor and calculator. To determine the position of the aiming frame, the arrow must enter the ballistic characteristics of the cartridge, determine the distance to the target and set the excess in accordance with the instructions on the calculator screen. BORS determines air density, rifle tilt and automatically corrects calculations.

                Detects air temperature, atmospheric pressure, and lateral angle of the rifle barrel
                Counts correction for cartridges with known ballistic parameters
                Eliminates the need to count the number of “clicks” to make corrections, count the number of mil dots, or use a karamin calculator.
                Allows the shooter to concentrate on the quality of the shot and quickly shoot at multiple targets.
                For Nightforce Sights 5-22x50
                Without mounting rings

                The military says that the collimator improves firing accuracy by a factor of 2, yes, but you have your own opinion, what if the floor of the world uses them and our special forces are still suitable only for beauty. Yes?
                1. anomalocaris
                  anomalocaris April 29 2013 22: 11 New
                  0
                  Nude Nude. Just do not give out your fabrications for my thoughts and knowledge. Look stupid.
                  1. Joker
                    Joker April 30 2013 01: 07 New
                    -1
                    Stop stop stop, you yourself wrote that
                    Screaming about modularity and attachments are not perceived

                    So you can go to war with a sword and shield, but dress up in armor, it’s never safer wink Remember how the Poles on horseback German tanks attacked in the second world?))
                    About the collimator.
                    The collimator sight allows the shooter to quickly aim the weapon at the target at a luminous 2 point at the luminous point-marker, observing the object with both eyes open, which is very convenient when shooting at a moving target, a closed-type collimator sight with magnification from 4 is convenient for shooting at remote targets. to 42. The use of collimator sights increases the accuracy of the lesion in 1.5-2 times
        2. krot00f
          krot00f April 29 2013 23: 02 New
          +1
          Yes, the trouble is with you, None of these plastic toys In Russia, the state will not pass. trials, well, only if for bribes. There is no point in wasting time and money. Well, about the fact that they, in principle, will not shoot Soviet cartridges, and even more so Russian, it is better to remain silent.
    2. scrabler
      April 29 2013 09: 14 New
      +7
      Heh, I'll tell you the material about how everything was tried the same way back in the end of 70's, looked at what happened, spat and forgot laughing
      http://topwar.ru/17824-mertvorozhdennyy-strelkovyy-kompleks-80002.html
    3. Bykov.
      Bykov. April 29 2013 10: 31 New
      +6
      Quote: Yankuz
      ... At least at the stage of scientific and technical experiments ...

      Do not confuse sci-fi with sci-tech, or they invent, invent, and how to fight in the "real", they drop their know-how and grab the captured AK, and then if they manage to grab it, and not a bullet from it " catch "...
      What-what, and gunsmiths, in Russia, certainly at the height, at the height of technical thought. It is a pity that they do not always have the opportunity to do what they want.
    4. Joker
      Joker April 29 2013 15: 16 New
      +2
      The ХМ25 project was curtailed a year and a half ago due to excesses with electronics, several grenades exploded a couple of meters from the shooter. Now it is being renewed again due to the reduction of the army in 150 000 people, the Americans have decided to switch from quantity to quality, and now development of promising weapons for the infantryman is resuming, this is small arms and equipment.
    5. Die-hard
      Die-hard April 29 2013 15: 17 New
      +3
      Quote: Yankuz
      our gunsmiths stopped in their development somewhere in the twentieth century

      As if that is not the case. Under Soviet rule, they were accustomed to vparivat military all sordid nonsense without tasks and continue this wretched tradition. For a long time, they could have had a normal modular rifle complex with nishtyaks like balanced automation, but instead, scammers from Izhmash riveted another modification that same, and Izhmash lobbyists do not allow other shooter developers to go to the trough.
      1. krot00f
        krot00f April 29 2013 22: 50 New
        +1
        Oh, what a bad Izhmash, your proposals for the same money, Buy an M-16 from China.) And without Soviet R&D and OCD, there wouldn’t be anything in the industry at all, And how many talented people have grown, I don’t write like that.
    6. krot00f
      krot00f April 29 2013 23: 05 New
      0
      This is not true, everything is in Russia.
      1. Die-hard
        Die-hard April 29 2013 23: 17 New
        0
        Oh, there are a lot of interesting examples of riflemen. True, in prototypes and small series, before full production, all works, except for the Izhmashevsky ones, for some reason do not survive, but oh well.
  2. ed65b
    ed65b April 29 2013 08: 24 New
    0
    It is interesting who licks at whom warriors from computer engineers or vice versa. In toys and films, it has been shooting for a long time, the soldier’s dream is hardly realized.
    1. KORESH80
      KORESH80 April 29 2013 09: 16 New
      +3
      It is interesting who licks at whom warriors from computer engineers or vice versa. In toys and movies, it shoots for a long time

      This complex has long been taught to shoot, but it is one thing to generate targets from a prototype at demonstrative firing, and it’s another to equip the initially planned number of units with such weapons (worth more than tens of thousands of $). Efficiency issues are described above.
    2. avt
      avt April 29 2013 09: 34 New
      +5
      Quote: ed65b
      a soldier’s dream is hard to come true.

      Yeah dream laughing You don’t want to dream with such a bandura at the computer? The author is right +, they played with modular designs, as well as with removable trunks. It is certainly beautiful on the screen in Discovery, but in practice, all these happiness are not in a hurry bourgeoisie to apply. There’s even the old trunk of Vietnam’s M-14 modernization, and our advanced ones groan that Kalash is outdated and there is no happiness for us.
      1. Refund_SSSR
        Refund_SSSR April 29 2013 10: 22 New
        +4
        Kalash can not become obsolete until there are more reliable and more "killer" and accurate analogues while maintaining or changing the weight / dimensions in a smaller direction. Subject to comparability in price and manufacturing complexity, which means mass in the troops.
        Kalash is still one of the best in the world in all these respects ... And what else is needed for combined arms?
        Another matter of special forces or BB .. But this is another league and other requirements .. Compare one with the other - nonsense.
        Another thing is to update some structural elements in connection with the advent of new, modern materials and alloys .. This is necessary, yes.
        It is also necessary to make and send "body kits" to the troops.
        1. Heccrbq
          Heccrbq April 29 2013 11: 19 New
          +2
          I look at our specialists in Dagestan of Ingushetia, almost all the collimators are standing, already plus a lot, but judging by LJ Hardingush, everything is bought for my own, this is not good.
  3. bureyat
    bureyat April 29 2013 09: 10 New
    -2
    when he served, in anti-tank platoons there was then a “baby” missile whose rocket was controlled by a cord, wouldn’t it be easier to set the distance to the enemy and blow over the enemy’s heads or in an enclosed space somewhere in the middle of the room with a simple rangemeter
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris April 29 2013 10: 37 New
      +4
      "Baby" and now found in some places. It is made in the same China ... There are options for modernization.
  4. cth; fyn
    cth; fyn April 29 2013 09: 23 New
    0
    In short, as I understand it, the XM-25 is a grenade launcher from the OCIW complex, if it weighs 5kg, then how much did the OCIW itself weigh? 8 kg?
    Wouldn't it be easier for a revolver grenade launcher to develop a rangefinder sight and a shot? They also have a 40 mm grenade launcher in service, why so pervert?
    1. scrabler
      April 29 2013 09: 29 New
      +4
      There are two options, either a lot of mind, or not only our tradition drank money laughing In general, I think that the toad just choked when they realized that nothing good would come of it, so they decided to squeeze something out of this disgrace.
      1. cth; fyn
        cth; fyn April 29 2013 09: 58 New
        0
        These are the very super-duper weapons of the 86st century, a stub from the program of the XNUMXth year.
      2. the47th
        the47th April 29 2013 13: 35 New
        +3
        Quote: scrabler
        There are two options, either a lot of mind, or drank money not only our tradition of laughing

        I drank money in the US Armed Forces much worse than ours. What is the F-117 or F-22 flying iron worth?
        1. patsantre
          patsantre April 29 2013 17: 59 New
          -2
          And what's in them?
          1. scrabler
            April 29 2013 20: 32 New
            +3
            I will not say about aviation, but I can give you so many examples from a handgun, and here one of two things: either hopeless stupidity, or hard, openly hard, I drank.
            1. ssergn
              ssergn April 29 2013 21: 33 New
              0
              Yeah, and if I add about the exchange and system banks, then you can even move your mind wise, how many dumb .., and honest citizens. And by the way, the term 2b2f is not coined by us - it’s too cool to die. That's it.
    2. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris April 29 2013 10: 11 New
      +1
      The first options weighed over a dozen kg. The final (without ammunition) 8,5.
      And so, Popil Otkatov - he lives in all countries, and even in the bright foreign land he has long taken root ...
  5. bord731
    bord731 April 29 2013 10: 26 New
    +2
    Yes, the article lifted the mood +. But as a p.i.nd.do.s.s. don’t sit down - you’re not good at musicians ....
  6. rereture
    rereture April 29 2013 10: 51 New
    +2
    The moral of this fable is this, do not get fooled. People on a beautiful western wrapper and on beautiful slogans. Outside is 'brutal' and in plastic, and inside as in the twentieth century.
  7. Alexey M
    Alexey M April 29 2013 11: 38 New
    0
    If you wish, you can bring it to mind. In a grenade launcher, you need a damaging element such as needles, you will immediately increase efficiency. Grenades can be made armor-piercing for light armor, even smoky ones, but you can think of a lot. The main thing is to deliver all this to the enemy. And with this I understand the problems no. And the fact that the sight is electronic is only a plus. If you teach the sight of ballistics to calculate in automatic mode, then in general a cool thing will turn out. Such an aim on the B-94 to put the beauty out. By the way, using such weapons is much easier to learn to shoot than from ordinary.
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris April 29 2013 18: 37 New
      0
      Can. Not in this caliber. The grenade’s usable volume is too small to use anything other than a fuse and a few grams of explosives.
  8. luiswoo
    luiswoo April 29 2013 12: 24 New
    0
    At its core, the ХМ25 is still the same initial project of a manual rifle-grenade launcher system, but only in the form of a grenade launcher.

    There is a feeling that he will "simplify" to a smart grenade launcher ...
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris April 29 2013 18: 42 New
      0
      Most likely it will. It seems to me personally that it will simplify to a “smart” sight with a rangefinder and ballistic calculator for a conventional grenade launcher / revolving grenade launcher / magazine grenade launcher firing an ordinary 40 mm grenade.
  9. Mr. Truth
    Mr. Truth April 29 2013 16: 49 New
    +3
    The Americans had the opportunity to make a breakthrough in infantry small arms, they successfully ... shit it, it was a Steyr rifle under the ACR program, it used SPEL as ammunition, and had a high accuracy of firing bursts at a very fast pace. Some people think of such beautiful models as the FN SCAR, such as the Beretta ARX, giving the future to the HK-416, in reality, combat effectiveness will not move forward or backward, and time will pass. This is an obsolete weapon concept under an obsolete concept of ammunition.
    The line of three SPELs has a greater damaging effect, but you don’t have to talk about armor-piercing. A competently developed SPEL will have it at and above the armor-piercing bullets of rifle cartridges, and the flight time is shorter and the trajectory is more flat, due to the lower recoil the chance that the line will reach its goal is higher.
    The only thing ... This is the ballistics of telescopic cartridges, if you use a standard bottle sleeve, then the internal ballistics will be more predictable, even if this will cause a slight increase in weight. Weapons for such ammunition have one more plus: it’s lower laboriousness for manufacturing the barrel, its higher resource, saving metal and gunpowder in the manufacture of ammunition.
    1. Ch0sen1
      Ch0sen1 April 29 2013 17: 15 New
      +2
      All this suggests that a breakthrough in ammunition is needed in the first place. Weapons using a standard unitary cartridge came close to the limit of excellence, then development is no longer pure cosmetics.
    2. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris April 29 2013 18: 45 New
      0
      Also not a fact. The small-caliber SPEL has a huge number of shortcomings. Much more than you think.
      1. Mr. Truth
        Mr. Truth April 29 2013 20: 07 New
        0
        Cons have everything. The technological and production disadvantages of SPEL will disappear as the technology grows and matures.
        SPEL has the main advantage - low recoil, flatness, armor penetration, good damaging effect.
        The main disadvantages are a loud sound when fired and accuracy that is not enough for ordinary bullets.
        And the problem with the stopping action can be solved by introducing a short line at a high pace as a regular fire mode. Moreover, the most optimal caliber is 2,5 mm, such a caliber can combine acceptable returns, weight and initial speed.
        1. anomalocaris
          anomalocaris April 29 2013 20: 42 New
          +2
          Technological and manufacturing disadvantages have not disappeared. Here we need the same technological leap that allowed us to switch to small-caliber cartridges at the end of the 19th century.
          The amazing effect they have, by the way, is very mediocre. Which was confirmed during the experiments. Just do not confuse them with arrow-shaped GGE artillery shells. And where will it be high if the muzzle energy of the SPEL is two times lower than that of a classic machine gun?
          Their penetration is good for soft bulletproof vests, which they just pierce. From ceramic plates, they simply ricochet. Too little weight.
          1. krot00f
            krot00f April 29 2013 22: 39 New
            0
            GGE - arrows At one time, the bulletproof vest was stitching.) Tank shot distance 3-5km.)
          2. Mr. Truth
            Mr. Truth April 29 2013 23: 04 New
            0
            You have interesting experiments, and body armor too.
            Then reanimate 6x49?
            1. anomalocaris
              anomalocaris April 29 2013 23: 14 New
              0
              This is not my experiment. These are the experiments of ours and the Americans. In general, any sub-caliber projectile is a compromise between internal and external ballistics, in which only one property is bulged out - penetration, to the detriment of the rest.
              1. Mr. Truth
                Mr. Truth April 30 2013 00: 00 New
                0
                Not only armor penetration, automatic fire efficiency, flying time, flatness, low recoil. Hence the greater chance to hit the enemy. I would not judge SPEL by the cartridges that Steyr and AAI developed for their samples, as well as by the Dvoryaninov cartridge. These were experiments, everyone rushed to the extreme. By the way, the standard swept fragment for the projectile at the time weighed 0,5 grams, which is slightly less than the SPEL for the ACR program.
                Regarding the damaging effect, given that the main rate of fire for such rifles is short fast bursts, the effect of hitting several bullets compensates for the low stopping effect.
  10. Raphael_83
    Raphael_83 April 29 2013 17: 03 New
    +3
    Well, we got to the wunderwafel! First, "Gauss" and "rails", now this. The author consistently brings to life the wishes of the regulars.
    But seriously, respect Kirill. I myself, at the time of my fascination with this thing, saw images / videos of only two prototypes (1998/1999, including the IMO in 2 SoF 2002 — it was still a trachoma) and did not suspect their general diversity.
    ____________________________________
    As for the caliber and dimensions:
    "Marines -" foresters "shocked examined the frightening weapons of the" Corsairs ", most of all resembling the cutoffs of aircraft guns:" And weapons? What caliber is this ?! "-" Is that? Automatic "Spider", 20 mm caliber - lightweight standard unit "... (A. Orlov," No return is provided ") smile .
    As you imagine, with such a “harvester”, as in the first photo, you have to rush through the woods or mountains - he takes a dumbbell, and yet there is ammunition, ammunition ... In the furnace. stop
  11. USNik
    USNik April 29 2013 17: 36 New
    +4
    A brilliant cut of money they did. The RP charge for RPG-7 of 3 rubles per bunch will make the job of knocking out seated opponents much easier, more reliable and faster. Hats off to financial geniuses from the states hi .
  12. pinachet
    pinachet April 29 2013 17: 40 New
    +4
    it's all in the dash well, and how this electronics will work at least at -30.
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris April 29 2013 18: 48 New
      +2
      Or at +40, or at 90% humidity ...
    2. scrabler
      April 29 2013 20: 34 New
      +4
      And I'll save the photo))) You never know, let the children even see the real winter in the picture)))
      1. anomalocaris
        anomalocaris April 29 2013 20: 50 New
        0
        Well, I can throw such ph hi
  13. Alexey M
    Alexey M April 29 2013 20: 33 New
    0

    K11: Combined Assault Rifle - Grenade Launcher


    Caliber: 5.56x45mm NATO + 20x30B
    Automation type: gas exhaust, locking by turning the shutter (5.56mm) + manual reloading (20mm)
    Length: 860 mm
    Barrel length: 310 mm (5.56 mm) and 405 mm (20 mm)
    Weight: 6.1 kg (with sighting system, without shops)
    Rate of fire:?
    Store: 30 rounds 5.56mm + 5 grenades 20mm
    This has already been done by Korea.
    1. scrabler
      April 29 2013 20: 43 New
      0
      This is how they took the following article and lit up))))) Okay, let's write off as superfluous, anyway there was nothing sensible))))
  14. scrabler
    April 29 2013 20: 40 New
    +1
    Well, for a parasite minus? Well, at least once, declare, write why, what, how, you can in a personal, we argue, we can come to the truth ... In general, he noticed that the Russian firearm normally passes, and as soon as you write about foreign countries, then at least one minus will be. I am not a minus offended, but I want to argue that there is no justification for him> _ <
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris April 29 2013 20: 53 New
      +1
      Well then. We encroached on the STUFF GUN tru labor of the barrior drinks
  15. Alexey M
    Alexey M April 29 2013 20: 41 New
    0
    Beretta ARX-160 assault rifle complete with Beretta GLX-160 grenade launcher and a promising optoelectronic sighting system (including day, night and conventional optical channels, a laser rangefinder and ballistic computer for a grenade launcher).
    This is Italy.
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris April 29 2013 20: 48 New
      +3
      This is something more or less sane. But (you can consider it my personal oddity), all the same, all these electronic bells and whistles cause me to be suspicious.
      1. sedoj
        sedoj April 29 2013 22: 31 New
        +6
        The whole joke is that all this electronics runs on batteries, which, moreover, quickly drain. In case of untimely provision with these batteries, shooting through the rear sight and front sight remains, which not every soldier can do.
        1. anomalocaris
          anomalocaris April 29 2013 23: 10 New
          +1
          And that too. Although modern batteries still work for some time.
  16. Alexey M
    Alexey M April 29 2013 20: 46 New
    0
    Caliber: 5.56x45mm NATO + 20x30B
    Automation type: gas exhaust, locking by turning the shutter (5.56mm) + manual reloading (20mm)
    Length: 860 mm
    Barrel length: 310 mm (5.56 mm) and 405 mm (20 mm)
    Weight: 6.1 kg (with sighting system, without shops)
    Rate of fire:?
    Store: 30 rounds 5.56mm + 5 grenades 20mm
    This is Korea.
  17. Alexey M
    Alexey M April 29 2013 20: 53 New
    0
    There are no good Kalash words. But modern combat requires modern weapons. And we don’t even have any slats on Kalash. And the electronic sight will help to kill the enemy before he sees you. By the way, do we fight a lot at -30?
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris April 29 2013 20: 59 New
      +1
      AKMN, AK-74N, AK-74M and a bunch of modifications quite have their own bars for optics. In the Union, a whole gamut of night, optical, and collimator sights was developed for the entire spectrum of ratchet weapons back in the late 80s. Only to the troops all this beauty does not reach.
      Anything can happen. My ancestors had occasion to drive whites and Japanese to drive at -50.
    2. rereture
      rereture April 29 2013 23: 33 New
      +2
      In the middle lane, usually winters are from -20 to -35, this time.
      On Kalash, you can attach the bar (dovetail mount), two.
      We have thermal imaging sights that can detect an adversary in complete darkness, but no matter how much you spend at least 1000 years passing, anyway, a person himself will aim a weapon at a target of three.
      1. anomalocaris
        anomalocaris April 29 2013 23: 51 New
        +1
        And why did you decide that I live in the middle lane? In our Palestinians this winter, three weeks under a fifty fifty sting, and by the way this is the south.
        1. rereture
          rereture April 30 2013 13: 22 New
          0
          Sorry, you weren’t) wink
  18. krot00f
    krot00f April 29 2013 22: 34 New
    0
    It’s amazing, the author’s saying, “the flying speed of the projectile and the distance are known, but calculating the time and asking its fuse is simple.” In words, everything is simple, only in one phrase, 30 years of development by the most talented people in the most progressive country - the USSR. I’m not surprised that it didn’t work to combine the monkey with the knot, Yes, and the commercials, they won’t achieve such accuracy in the queue from the grenade launcher. And in general, no offense, the Americans have a thin gut to build such systems.) And where is it, these plastic rattles in the pictures are difficult to understand, but also AK with a picatinny rail and a butt-marketing move. It seems that the designer promised a new cartridge 6,5mm, then it will be interesting.
    1. scrabler
      April 29 2013 23: 44 New
      +3
      Do not believe it, but you can count all this on a simple calculator))) I will tell you more, any sniper does the same calculations in his head for a split second, maybe not
      consciously, but nonetheless.
      Well, so to speak to demoralize the enemy: This is Chizh & Co:

      A good song, I don’t argue ... here it is the original, compare without special effects, so to speak ... Egor Letov - Phantom:
      It seems like the difference in the nuances, but where is the truth, anhydrite your manganese?
      Here is a minus as you wish, and we are still ahead in the late seventies, the main thing is to lower the bar.
  19. rereture
    rereture April 29 2013 23: 39 New
    +1
    Ash 12, although without a computerized sight, but it seems to me it's not bad. Sorry for the little data.
    1. Die-hard
      Die-hard April 30 2013 00: 17 New
      -1
      Quote: rereture
      he is not bad

      To scare the Holocaust Abreks. A characteristic feature of absolutely all “rolls” is that smoke in the face of the operator with a probability of 99% has not disappeared.
      1. rereture
        rereture April 30 2013 13: 02 New
        0
        It is long enough)
  20. saved
    saved April 30 2013 01: 24 New
    +1
    Whatever you say, electronics will come to the army someday, only now we should not chase it, and if they are successfully invented, we can “ask” for a sample, so to speak. Although I think that nevertheless, our minds will be able to come up with something breakthrough much faster than they will bring their developments to mind. And a few words about modularity. NEVER the machine can become a sniper rifle, even put the barrel, even change the optics.
    1. Die-hard
      Die-hard April 30 2013 01: 26 New
      -1
      Quote: saved
      the machine cannot become a sniper rifle

      She won’t be able to sniper, but a Marxman - please.
  21. Ak 12
    Ak 12 April 30 2013 14: 36 New
    0
    Quote: Joker
    It would not hurt us to begin the development of promising models of weapons, because apart from the AK-12, there’s nothing new at all and the AK-12 can be called a new one with a huge stretch, in fact, they improved the quality and made an external upgrade. IMHO that's what you need to strive for.

    And you yourself were holding AK 12 or Skar in order to criticize AK 12
  22. mojohed
    mojohed April 30 2013 14: 41 New
    0
    Well surprised. Yes, the new rifle complexes from AK-74M and the grenade launcher are no different. Only an extra reason to cut the budget. At the OCD stage, it is possible to develop, but the launch into production and operation only after state tests in the "Special Group of Forces".
  23. gremlin1977
    gremlin1977 8 May 2013 21: 12 New
    0
    And the joke is that all these developments at a cost in the army will never get into either ours or Yusovskaya. All this is for the anti-terrorist units that the army has never been.!
  24. Damask
    Damask 10 May 2013 15: 11 New
    0
    A beautiful weapon in terms of aesthetics.
  25. Damask
    Damask 10 May 2013 15: 14 New
    0
    Weapons are not for a large Army.
  26. Timothybype
    Timothybype 23 February 2014 03: 11 New
    0



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