Military Review

T-84 vs. T-90C: the standoff in Asia

114
Like all states with a well-developed military industry, Ukraine, entering the global arms trade market, has repeatedly participated in international arms exhibitions, presenting its T-84 tank, and has achieved certain successes in this. She managed to conclude a contract with the government of Pakistan, which has already acquired part of the agreed party. tanks T-84 for its armed forces.


Tank T-64B1 of the Vladimir Tank Training Center.


The domestic and foreign press has long been discussing the comparative assessment of the Ukrainian T-84 tank and the Russian T-90 tank, but the prospect of a possible confrontation between the Russian and Ukrainian tank building is not on a testing ground, but in real combat situations makes us think about a lot.

Paradoxically, but история human development confirms the fact that the most significant success is achieved in the development and implementation of military technology.

In order to clearly imagine the outcome of a possible fire collision of T-90C and T-84 tanks, it is necessary to refer to the history of their creation and analyze their design and manufacturing technology.

Both tanks have their pedigrees, the roots of which are descended during the Soviet era, when the efforts of several giants of the domestic tank building, including the Kharkov A. Morozov Design Bureau (KKBM) and Uralvagonzavod Design Bureau (Nizhny Tagil), were designed to develop an improved version of the tank. T-64A - the first post-war serial tank of the third generation. The T-64A tank (the developer of the same KMDB) was equipped with the most powerful 125-mm smooth-bore tank gun at that time, had a loading mechanism that replaced one crew member, had a remarkable protection provided by a welded hull made of combined materials and a cast tower of the same materials . The appearance of this tank triggered foreign tank manufacturers to create their own tanks capable of withstanding the T-64A. However, possessing certain advantages, the T-64 family tanks also had a number of disadvantages, the main ones of which were the low reliability of the undercarriage and the complexity of operating the power plant, where the two-stroke 5TDF diesel engine with 700 hp power was used. The result of the long and multi-stage work of the Soviet tank industry for the deep modernization of the T-64 tank was the appearance, in addition to the T-64 tank family, of two more families (T-72 and T-80), various structurally, but similar in concept and tactical and technical characteristics . And by the time the independent sovereign states — Russia and Ukraine — emerged, the latest modifications of these family tanks — the modern Russian T-90 tanks (exported by T-90C) and the Ukrainian T-84 (T-XNUMHUD in post-Soviet version) .

T-84 vs. T-90C: the standoff in Asia
T-80 Tank


Some sources reported that the T-84 was installed on the TMS on the basis of the 1А45 OMS using day and night sights of French production (manufactured by Thompson). Yes, such studies were carried out, but attempts to reach an agreement with the suppliers of these components did not lead to success, so the JMA of the T-84 tank supplied under the contract to Pakistan remained almost unchanged. In addition, the shutter declared by the developers of the optical-electronic suppression system is installed on single samples of T-84 tanks and is not included in the package on the Pakistani contract, as well as the 6TD-2 engine 1200 HP, which the Pakistani side refused to use several reasons. Instead, the tanks are equipped with 6TD engines with HP 1000 power.

Like any other, the T-84 tank has its advantages and disadvantages. Possessing the same characteristics of firepower and security as the T-90C. the car turned out highly dynamic, easy to drive. It has a high average speed in a variety of driving conditions.

In order to exclude a possible subjectivity in the estimates. consider the design features of the tank T-84. First of all, with the installation of an opposed two-stroke engine 84TD (6TD-6) on the T-2 tank, the same drawbacks of the T-64А and T-XNUMHUD tanks affecting its operational capabilities remained.

General view of the T-90C.


Tank T-84 passes along the track of the landfill. Abu Dhabi, 1997 year.


The aforementioned boxer 6TD and 6TD-2 engines, which undoubtedly have high structural performance (for example, overall power), as noted during the tests, have unsatisfactory starting characteristics due to the characteristics of the operating cycle. For reliable engine start, high-speed starting equipment is necessary. The main type of 6TD engine start is not airborne, as in the B-84 engines of T-90 tanks, but electrical starting, more energy-intensive and less reliable in operation.

When operating in conditions of high ambient temperatures on the T-84, serious restrictions have been imposed on the temperature conditions of the engine, which makes it much more difficult to use this machine in summer conditions. The fanless cooling system used on the tank has limited capabilities to ensure reliable operation during further engine boosting and does not provide the normal temperature of the engine (even 1000-strong) when the ambient temperature is above 30 — 35'С at all speed and load modes of the engine. Perhaps this was the reason for installing an unforced 84TD engine on the T-6 tanks under the Pakistani contract.

Tank T-80UD, prepared for the armed forces of Pakistan, exhibited in Kharkov on the anniversary of the KMDB named after Malyshev.


Tank T-90M at an exhibition in Nizhny Tagil. July 1999 of the year.


It should be borne in mind that a two-stroke diesel engine has significantly greater (compared to a four-stroke) power loss when operating in a tank in the so-called object conditions (due to its particular sensitivity to the resistance created at the inlet and outlet systems of air cleaning and exhaust gases). These losses increase even more in high-altitude conditions due to rarefied air.

Not fully resolved for the T-84 tank is the problem of cleaning the air supplying the engine. On Kharkov machines equipped with two-stroke diesel engines, tapeless inertial air cleaners of the cyclone type are traditionally used to ensure the lowest possible resistance in the intake tract. But the effectiveness of such air cleaners is quite small. Prolonged operation of the T-64 and T-80UD tanks revealed frequent failure of the tank engines due to dust wear of parts of the cylinder-piston group. To eliminate this drawback, a preliminary air purification system and dust wear sensors were installed on the tanks, but this did not give much effect. In this regard, designers will have to continue to search for new design solutions to ensure reliable operation of the air cleaning system for this type of engine, including by installing additional cassettes, which in the conditions of super-dense layout of the engine compartment seems extremely difficult power loss.


Demonstration of the driving performance of Ukrainian tanks in Abu Dhabi: T-84 at IDEX-97 and T-84М at IDEX-99.


The T-90C tank is more adapted to the conditions of high temperatures, high dustiness and high mountains, which is caused by the installation of the well-proven B-84 engine on it. It is convincing that according to the results of the road tests of T-90 tanks in one of the regions of Central Asia, when daily 350 — 450 km were conducted and average speeds of movement at ambient temperature above 40 ° С and high dustiness of desert forest roads were 35 — 42 km / h As mentioned above, this year, tests were carried out at Indian test sites, within the framework of the same export order for this country, several T-90 equipped with a B-92 engine, whose power was increased to 1000 hp. (on the experimental stand, the engine developed all 1200 hp and without any problems). This eliminated the main argument cited by Ukrainian opponents, namely lower power compared to the T-84 (although tank crews say that the 840 hp is enough for the eyes).

Parameter

6TD

In-92

Maximum

bench power hp

1000

1000

Maximum

object power hp

920

920

Specific fuel consumption g / hp

158

156

Coefficient

adaptability, K

1,12

1,25

Volume. m1

0,9

1,2

Weight, kg

1180

1020



As follows from the data presented in the table, the 6TD and B-92 engines have virtually identical engine conditions. However, the Russian engine has an adaptability factor on 10%. Due to this, all other things being equal, the T-90 tank has better acceleration characteristics and higher average speeds on smooth dirt and sandy roads.

The fuel consumption of both engines at maximum power mode is almost equal, however, a comparative analysis of fuel consumption at the most probable operation and combat use of tanks in engine load modes (0,6-0,8 from full power) showed that for T-84 on 10 — 15% fuel consumption is higher than that of the T-90. Practically in the same range, the T-90 tank has an advantage in terms of reserve compared to the T-84 tank. Higher fuel consumption of the 6TD engine is associated, as mentioned above, with the features of the working process of a two-stroke diesel engine, and it is unlikely that there will be a significant reduction in engine tuning.

Tank T-90С demonstrates its driving performance. Abu Dhabi, spring 1997 of the year.


Tank T-90C on the ground before the shooting. The new camouflage developed in 1998 year attracts attention.


Sufficiently convincing arguments against the T-84 tank are the results of the tender tests conducted in Greece in 1998 for the tanks of the leading tank-producing countries - the USA, Great Britain, France, Germany, Russia and Ukraine. According to the results of one of the tests conducted in the highlands, the Greek side noted a number of deficiencies in the T-84 tank, one of which is the “unsatisfactory environmental performance” of the 6TD-2 engine. When making a march, the Greek crew of the Challenger-84 tank in the convoy behind the t-2 tank was poisoned by exhaust gases in front of the vehicle in progress and refused to continue further movement, but they were persuaded to wear respirators to continue the march. No less depressing, which is also associated with the design features of the power plant, was the refusal of the Ukrainian delegation to participate in the test for dismantling and installing the engine by the crew for a while. The crew of the T-84 really understood that with respect to the M1 Abrams, Leopard-2А5 and our T-80, where the temporary indicators were: 40 / 45 min., 35 / 45 min. And 1ch.40 / 1ch./20 min. accordingly, it simply did not make sense for them to stand as candidates, since their average numbers ranged from 12 to 15 hours. By the way, in India, where the T-90 had to dismantle the B-92 engine, the crew’s temporary indicator was just over two hours. Since the combat weight of the T-84 in relation to the basic version of the T-80UD increased significantly and amounted to about 49,5 tons, and the engine power remained the same, this could not but affect the tractive characteristics of the tank. So, for example, the Ukrainian crew could not climb with a stop on the slope in 32 degrees. By the way, the Challenger-2E and Leopard-2A5, which had a combat weight of 60 tons with hooks (only from the second attempts, with new tracks and on clean asphalt).


Demonstrations of the ride quality of the T-90M tank. Nizhny Tagil, July 1999 of the year.


Tank T-84M demonstrates its driving performance. Abu Dhabi.


Summarizing all of these drawbacks characteristic of the T-84 tank power plant, one can say that in general it is a wonderful car, a wonderful fruit of engineering, but the fruit is quite “exotic” for hot and dusty operating conditions.

As for the T-90С tank, on the purchase of which by India, negotiations with the Russian side are already coming to an end, it can be said without a doubt that in terms of its combat characteristics (firepower and security) it is identical to the T-84 tank, with the only difference that the complex "Curtain" is an indispensable element in the acquisition of all T-90 tanks. Moreover, according to the developer of the T-90С tank, certain measures were taken to modernize the T-90С tanks, related to the possibility of integrating into the tank's MSA, at the request of customers, various components (mainly sighting and observation instruments, communications equipment) as developed by the national industry and foreign production. Now it is possible to install a new welded tower with a higher percentage of protection and allowing to use more advanced BPS in the T-90, with an extended core of enhanced armor penetration. The same can be said about other systems of the T-90C, but the developer does not intend to prematurely disclose all the prospects for the modernization of his brainchild.

T-84 at the ground in Abu Dhabi. 1997 year.


Thus, answering the question asked about the results of a possible battle of two unjustly separated brothers, as is the case in Indian films, it remains to wish only one thing - that such a possibility does not arise. T-84 and T-90С are practically twins, analogues in their firepower and security, although, as is the case in life, the older the twins are, the clearer their differences in individual development are. In the real confrontation of military formations armed with T-84 and T-90С tanks, the success of one side or another will depend only on the strategy and tactics of using these tanks, the professional training of their crews.

Comparative characteristics of the T-84 and T-90С tanks

Characterization

T-84 Tank

Tank T-90С

Combat weight, t

49.5

46,5

Crew, pers.

3

3

Average specific pressure, kg / cm3

0,93

0,95

Obstacle obstacles:

rise, hail

32

30

ford, m

1,8 (with OPVT-5)

1,2 (with OPVT-5)

Engine

6TD (6TD-2)

B-84MS (B-92C2)

Maximum power, hp

1000 (1200)

840 (1000)

Fuel capacity, l

1300

1600

Power density, hp / t

20.2 (24.2)

18.5 (21,5)

Maximum speed km / h

60

60

Cruising on the highway, km

550

740

Staging Tools

smoke screens

thermal smoke

thermal smoke

equipment (TDA),

equipment (TDA),

system

system

902A -Touch

902A -Touch

Protection

combined

combined

armored

armored

improved

improved

built-in

built-in

dynamic

dynamic

Optical electronic suppression complex

missing (single samples "Curtain-1")

"Shtora-1"

Armament:

a gun

125 mmGSP-PU

125 mmGSP-PU

2А46М1

2А46М2

ammunition, pcs

43

43

twin machine gun

7,62 mm PKT

7,62 MM PKMB

ammunition

2000

2000

anti-aircraft machine gun

12,7 NSWT

12,7-Cord-

ammunition

300

300

Loading

machine.

machine.

Guided weapons complex

9K119М

9K119М

Fire Control System

1А45

1А45

Aim

1Г46

1Г46

Gunner night sight

TPN4-23-49

TPN4-23-49

Night sight commander

TKN-4С

TKN-4С

Weapon stabilizer

2E42-4

2E42-4

Author:
114 comments
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  1. Greyfox
    Greyfox April 24 2013 09: 04 New
    +8
    By and large, the global confrontation between the T-90 and T-84 is a history of deliveries to Pakistan and India. And there is no confrontation as such - if you supply weapons to Pakistan, then you will not supply them to India. From a cynical point of view, it would be quite possible to agree on the division of spheres of influence and quietly drive Russian guns and komplektuh to the Ukrainian T-84 for Pakistan or other countries to which Russia cannot supply weapons (or does not want). Because if you don’t agree, then the Chinese will come there (as is the case with Pakistan).
    1. anton107798
      anton107798 April 24 2013 18: 25 New
      -1
      [quote = Greyfox] By and large, the global confrontation between the T-90 and T-84 ...
      from the article you can see immediately how rushing advertising
      1. tttttt
        tttttt April 25 2013 21: 08 New
        +8
        During the march, the Greek crew of the Challenger-84 tank following the convoy of the T-2 tank received exhaust gas poisoning in front of the vehicle in front and refused to continue further movement


        laughing fool And the nefig of the NATO homosexual is creeping up behind Soviet tanks - the answer will be asymmetric!
    2. don.kryyuger
      don.kryyuger April 24 2013 18: 58 New
      +1
      That's right. You can't sit on two chairs. Remember the good old "Zaporozhets", the same situation is there. I personally saw how the T-80U stood with the hoods raised.
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr April 24 2013 20: 42 New
        +6
        Quote: don.kryyuger
        ..... I personally saw how the T-80U stood with their hoods up.

        ???? So what ? After each trip, a normal mechanic will look into the transmission, and this can not be done without raising the armor plate (it is on the torsion bars).
      2. Retriever
        Retriever 3 May 2013 15: 52 New
        0
        The engine certainly matters but not as important as indicated in the article. The main thing is the system of target detection and firing. And how the tank will return to the base, but even in tow, the main thing is to shoot first and not by. Whoever saw the first and the first hit the target is in the dams, and the opponent will only have to smoke the sky.
  2. Kars
    Kars April 24 2013 09: 35 New
    +4
    T-84 and T-90S are almost twins, analogues in their firepower and security
    Already not funny))))
    Quote: Greyfox
    And there is no confrontation as such - if you supply weapons to Pakistan, then you will not supply them to India.
    What can be the confrontation if the USSR in India built a plant under T-72))) there was not even a tender.


    Read does not hurt
    bully
    1. Kars
      Kars April 24 2013 10: 36 New
      +1
      to, for example, the Ukrainian crew could not get up with a stop on a slope of 32 degrees. By the way, both Challenger-2E and Leopard-2A5, which had a combat weight of 60 tons with hook (could not do it attempts, with new tracks and on clean asphalt)

      by the way, yes, they didn’t even take the Greek T-90 tender. but they preferred the T-80E

      Regarding the engine, for some reason, they decided to put a horseradish engine on the tanks of their production in China and Pakistan, and they are purchasing them.
      1. Greyfox
        Greyfox April 24 2013 10: 44 New
        +9
        Kars, let's throw the cautionary tone "read". This book is not the ultimate truth. In the disputes about the T-84 and T-90, a lot of srach were divorced (on the same "courage" or at Khlopotov). In my post, I actually promoted the idea that dividing markets would lead to opportunities for cooperation, not opposition.
        1. Kars
          Kars April 24 2013 11: 04 New
          +1
          Quote: Greyfox
          Kars, let's throw in the cautionary tone "read"

          And do without give?
          Quote: Greyfox
          (on the same "courage" or at Khlopotov)

          Well, well, hlopotov is naturally unbiased, then please include Tarasov in the list?
          Quote: Greyfox
          In my post, I actually promoted the idea that the division of markets will lead to the possibility of cooperation, and not to confrontation.

          And how do you propose to share? Fraternally? Conscience? Honestly? UVZ and Kharkov under the USSR were loaded, and you are talking about cooperation in the era of capitalism.

          The fact that Russia tried to disrupt the Pakistan contract for this must be thanked very much, it forced to create a full cycle of tank production.
          The renewal cycle of the combat tank BM "Oplot" took 14,5 months. They talked about it at the State Concern "Ukroboronprom". "Viral cycle of preparation of BM" Oplot "borrowed 14,5 months.

          This is a folding, high-tech product that allows "Oplot" to get one of the smallest features of armored vehicles in the world. The main virobnik of the tank is DP "Zavod im. Malishev". Complementary and basic materials are supplied by 137 enterprises, of which there are 21 participants in the Concern ", - they were sent to the DC" Ukroboronprom "


          That would be the case with AN-70, they would already be sold all over the world.

          And read a book (or rather a monograph) or suggest yourself what to read - only not Internet writers.
          1. Kars
            Kars April 24 2013 11: 15 New
            -4
            ________________________
          2. Greyfox
            Greyfox April 24 2013 11: 22 New
            14
            And do without give?

            It is written with "a".
            The fact that Russia tried to disrupt the Pakistan contract for this must be thanked very much, it forced to create a full cycle of tank production.

            And how is it? Successfully? Did the Patriot tank leave the workshop? No more complaints about the guns? And why then the main export product of the Ukrainian "full cycle" is the T-72 tank?
            That would be the case with AN-70, they would already be sold all over the world.

            By the way, also through "a". I don’t even know how to comment to avoid xoxlossrach ... Let's just say the "success" of An-148 production has not yet clipped the wings of Ukrainian dreamers ...
            Monograph (from the Greek. Μονοσ - “one, one” and γραφειν - “write”) - a scientific work in the form of a book with in-depth study of one topic or several closely related topics

            Yes, the periodical that you proposed to read is precisely her ...
            1. Kars
              Kars April 24 2013 11: 45 New
              -1
              Quote: Greyfox
              It is written with "a".

              Does this relate to the topic under discussion?
              Quote: Greyfox
              Did the Patriot tank leave the workshop?

              Patriot is like your cornfield.
              Quote: Greyfox
              No more complaints about guns?

              Do you have evidence about complaints about a 125 mm cannon of Ukrainian-made tanks?
              Quote: Greyfox
              Is the T-72 Tank Product of the Ukrainian "Full Cycle"?

              it’s cheaper, and it’s easier for blacks, as they say even a lot.
              Quote: Greyfox
              By the way, also through "a"

              Does it matter?
              Quote: Greyfox
              Let's just say the "success" of An-148 production has not yet clipped the wings of Ukrainian dreamers ...

              Well, where do we go before the Super Jet, the losses from which airlines are rewarded for the funds of Russian taxpayers.
              Quote: Greyfox
              Yes, the periodical that you proposed to read is precisely her ...

              Two periodicals, if you were careful, and did not sit checking spelling. And something from you didn’t get anything to read? What is it?


              by the way from the supplies of Ukraine.
              1. Greyfox
                Greyfox April 24 2013 11: 58 New
                +4
                Patriot is like your cornfield.

                Do not guess! Yours!
                At the factory during the Pakistani contract there was a tank named "Patriot" famous for the fact that they tried to push it to Pakistan 4 times, but all 4 times it seriously broke down. As a result, he never went and lay disassembled throughout the plant. Now they began to drag him into a heap.

                by the way from the supplies of Ukraine

                "and" at the end. And in other places with literacy, as it were, not quite ..., as they say, even obezn spravitsa, boggle, taxpayers .... It's hard to read.
                About the "Superjet" it was you who really podddli me! +100! Now I am sure that Ukraine will trade "self-made An-70 from a closed cycle." And certainly all over the world! Just like the An-148. In general, I don’t participate in shit anymore ...
                1. Kars
                  Kars April 24 2013 12: 04 New
                  -1
                  Quote: Greyfox
                  Do not guess! Yours!

                  Quote: Greyfox
                  Now they began to pull him into a heap.

                  Naturally, the author of the pearl Gurk Khan troubles)))))
                  Quote: Greyfox
                  "and" at the end.

                  It feels like at the other end, my teacher is in Russian, Victoria Valentinovna - PriHveeeT)))
                  Quote: Greyfox
                  Now I am sure that Ukraine will sell "self-made An-70 from a closed cycle."

                  It’s a long time ago, but you smear the snot



                  by the way, and what about complaints? how many gurchik gives KBZ 3 shots?))))
                  1. svp67
                    svp67 1 June 2013 08: 08 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Kars
                    It’s a long time ago, but you smear the snot

                    In this project, there is only one thing left - Ukraine TO MAKE its financial contribution and that's it, produce and trade, and laugh at Russia, which you managed to "make money" ...
              2. svp67
                svp67 1 June 2013 08: 05 New
                +4
                Quote: Kars
                by the way from the supplies of Ukraine.


                You sell Т72 from stocks and what is the special merit of Ukraine? Only that prices are dumped and engaged in pure speculation ...
            2. black_eagle
              black_eagle April 24 2013 13: 12 New
              -5
              Quote: Greyfox
              And why then the main export product of the Ukrainian "full cycle" is the T-72 tank

              And we do not need them for nafig, once, we decided to base the armored forces on our own tanks, two
              Quote: Greyfox
              market sharing will lead to collaboration

              Yeah, this is with fair competition, but you can't tell us that in this dry cargo ship to Syria we are sending 10 "Pantsyrs" and not only to us, but to nobody, and we will not tell you, but at the next tender, we will also get rid of it in full, so don't be offended, but Mr., a former comrade, Gorbachev decided that this is better for us, if you have a different opinion, I invite you to the revolution
      2. anton107798
        anton107798 April 24 2013 18: 28 New
        -2
        Quote: Kars
        Regarding the engine, for some reason, they decided to put a horseradish engine on the tanks of their production in China and Pakistan, and they are purchasing them.



        such a shitty one, but the Russian one seems to be shitty))) because I haven’t won more than one tender for the supply of engines ... by the way, I’m very offended, since Ukraine proposes to put engines in Russia’s partners. India, for example, so offended, but they themselves can’t put in place of the old ones
      3. APOCALIPTIC
        APOCALIPTIC April 24 2013 18: 40 New
        0
        Quote: Kars
        by the way, yes, they didn’t even take the Greek T-90 tender. but they preferred the T-80E


        so the Defense Ministry itself refused to buy, good, T-90
        http://www.newsru.com/russia/14feb2012/t90.html
    2. svp67
      svp67 1 June 2013 08: 03 New
      +1
      Quote: Kars
      Already not funny))))


      But interestingly, indicate the place from which to laugh ...
  3. Vital 33
    Vital 33 April 24 2013 10: 23 New
    12
    Wow, that will begin right now ....)))) But for the sake of justice (IMHO) the t-84 is described incorrectly, much is not indicated, but about the engine I generally read the exact opposite. The problems were at the very beginning of operation, and this was mainly due to ignorance of new technology. And a feature of the engines of the TD family is just that they are better adapted to the hot climate (the possibility of short-term operation at t-120 degrees), and I agree that in essence this is a variation on the theme of one tank ...
  4. Sirocco
    Sirocco April 24 2013 10: 28 New
    +8
    The result of the test drive made me laugh. According to the results of one of the tests conducted in high altitude conditions, the Greek side noted a number of shortcomings in the T-84 tank, one of which is the “unsatisfactory environmental performance” of the 6TD-2 engine. During the march, the Greek crew of the Challenger-84 tank following the convoy of the T-2 tank received exhaust gas poisoning in front of the vehicle in front and refused to continue further movement, And what will happen to such a "unpretentious" crew from Greece if tomorrow is a war? Or as in a joke, they will shoot from the finger, then yes, in this case there is no dust, smoke, and dirt. God forbid to have such tankers. They would keep their distance, and there would be no such problem. Apparently they sat on the tail 84-ke, like on the F-1 laughing
    1. Vital 33
      Vital 33 April 24 2013 10: 52 New
      +8
      By the way, yes ...))) Was it that you had to go very tightly? Was there a problem in the Soviet army? And in general, what can be the "environmental friendliness" of a tank diesel with a volume of under 40 liters? By the way, in the Kharkov TD lope? 16 liters? If I'm not mistaken ...
    2. Black
      Black April 24 2013 15: 29 New
      +6
      Quote: Sirocco
      During the march, the Greek crew of the Challenger-84 tank following the convoy of the T-2 tank received exhaust gas poisoning in front of the vehicle in front and refused to continue further movement,


      I propose to begin the development of a tolerant tank for Europe. A blue case, a pink turret, a built-in toilet with a bidet .... on the general devices for consumption ... lol
  5. Canep
    Canep April 24 2013 10: 48 New
    +5
    In fact, this is one and the same tank, based on the revolutionary T-64 developed for its time by the Kharkovites. The Kharkov citizen's engine is noticeably more powerful, and what is not clear with reliability, the engine was a weak point on the T-64. Without comparative sea trials, it is very difficult to say which tank is better, or it may turn out that the one that is cheaper will become the best tank. Weapons in general can not be compared.
  6. Akim
    Akim April 24 2013 10: 54 New
    12
    I will not argue which of the tanks is better (thankless job in general). I just want to ask a question. Why do they say that T-84 was delivered to the packs? It will be known that only Ukraine has 84 T-7 "Oplot" (not to be confused with BM Oplot). T-80UD were delivered to Pakistan. They are still in the nomenclature on the manufacturer's website.
    Photo fresh
    1. Prohor
      Prohor April 24 2013 11: 25 New
      +1
      O-punk! People in black - is the new T-84 environmentally friendly engine? bully
      1. Akim
        Akim April 24 2013 11: 34 New
        +3
        Quote: Prokhor
        O-punk! Men in Black

        Have you come to fuss or really talk about business?
        1. Prohor
          Prohor April 24 2013 13: 07 New
          +1
          Two identical tanks with the same modernization potential (though, except for the MSA and ERA - completely exhausted) - there is no "case" to talk about.
          1. Kars
            Kars April 24 2013 13: 15 New
            0
            Quote: Prokhor
            (however, except for the LMS and dynamic protection - completely exhausted)

            Well, of course, you have to wait for Armata)) But in the world of tanks of the classic Soviet school in a modern, high-quality performance, you still have to live and live. It is more true to serve and carry.
      2. Vital 33
        Vital 33 April 24 2013 11: 44 New
        +3
        -Prokhor- Yes, yes ... initially they are in snow-white suits ... Ahh, this is such a delicate humor ... ear-ha-ha-ha, scream ...
      3. Vital 33
        Vital 33 April 24 2013 11: 45 New
        0
        -Prokhor- Yes, yes ... initially they are in snow-white suits ... Ahh, this is such a delicate humor ... ear-ha-ha-ha, scream ...
      4. svp67
        svp67 1 June 2013 08: 10 New
        0
        Quote: Prokhor
        O-punk! People in black - is the new T-84 environmentally friendly engine?

        No, it looks like Ukraine is also supplying them with uniforms, according to old Soviet models, ...
    2. black_eagle
      black_eagle April 24 2013 13: 06 New
      +2
      To be honest, the article smells like the end of the nineties. Some comrades say that the T-80UD and the T-84 are one machine, hinting that our hands are crooked and we cannot do anything, but we are remaking the same thing. Only BM "Oplot" is a real machine in metal, but "Armata" so far, plus the T-90MS, does not reach the BM, and the T-80UD and T-90S are identical machines (in purpose and capabilities), on the T -80UD are the first samples of the engine, it is clear that it went into the series not finished, we are not the USA where they will immediately give a bunch of ball for development, they sold them to packs and earned money for fine-tuning, all by ourselves, there is no one to help
      1. Akim
        Akim April 24 2013 13: 19 New
        0
        The first 6TDs put some more variants of the T-64, so it is not crude. It works fine. no whims. Maybe he does not have the same engine life as western engines, but less capricious to severe climatic conditions.
        1. black_eagle
          black_eagle April 24 2013 13: 24 New
          -1
          The capriciousness of Western engines is caused by the production technology, or rather the precision of machine tool processing, our machines are in most 60-70 years, and there all machines are 2-3 years old, they have 2-3 orders of magnitude higher quality of processing accuracy, for example, take a CPG (cylinder-piston group) so we have a "stone with a fist" is not a hindrance, since it slips in the gaps, and in the western ones a grain of sand bears irreparable damage, for example, and in everything, to execute AK on a modern machine, it will become as capricious as, for example, G-36
          1. BruderV
            BruderV April 24 2013 21: 03 New
            +1
            Quote: black_eagle
            so we have a "stone with a fist" is not a hindrance, since it slips in the gaps, and in the western grains, a grain of sand bears irreparable damage, for example, and in everything, it will become as capricious as, for example, G-36

            What are you saying?


            What's the Difference?
  7. mga04
    mga04 April 24 2013 11: 29 New
    0
    The author completely turned upside down the features of the 6TD-2 engines in Pakistan. The only thing that the engine says correctly is a high-speed start. Everything else - the level of power loss from increasing temperature, altitude and object conditions is distorted. Especially in comparison with the engines V-84, V-92. Probably the author considers the Pakistanis to be idiots, because they put the MTO with the 6TD-2 engine on a tank of their own production. Despite the fact that in the choice of engine they were not very limited.
    1. Akim
      Akim April 24 2013 11: 32 New
      +2
      Quote: mga04
      Probably the author considers the Pakistanis to be idiots, because they put the MTO with the 6TD-2 engine on a tank of their own production


      At the same time, Indians envy them and also want a Ukrainian engine.
      1. mga04
        mga04 April 24 2013 12: 01 New
        0
        And I will not be surprised that, having finished with "Arjun", they will put the Ukrainian MTO on it.
        1. Evrepid
          Evrepid 5 May 2013 23: 47 New
          +1
          very interesting!
          Change MTO production in Germany to Ukrainian MTO.

          Why do you think this is better than Ukrainian dvigun better than German diesel?
        2. svp67
          svp67 1 June 2013 08: 12 New
          0
          Quote: mga04
          And I will not be surprised that, having finished with "Arjun", they will put the Ukrainian MTO on it.

          The engine of "German ancestry" will soon appear on it, so surprise is not to be expected ...
      2. xan
        xan April 24 2013 14: 40 New
        0
        Quote: Akim
        At the same time, Indians envy them and also want a Ukrainian engine.

        what’s there to grind - and the Russians really want a Ukrainian engine
        1. Akim
          Akim April 24 2013 15: 02 New
          +2
          Quote: xan
          what’s there to grind - and the Russians really want a Ukrainian engine

          I don’t know this, but neither in the mountains nor in the desert on the border of India and Pakistan, neither German diesels, nor engines of the "B" series can compete with 6TD on T-80UD and Al-Khalid.
      3. black_eagle
        black_eagle April 24 2013 16: 53 New
        +2
        I confirm, I also heard that the Indians are coming up for foam, calling it almost a violation of all democratic norms to supply engines to Pakistan
    2. Vereshagin
      Vereshagin April 28 2013 13: 43 New
      +3
      Pan mga04, the author did not turn anything upside down when comparing tank engines upside down. As I understand it, you did not test the motors yourself in the “Pakistani conditions”. It is a fact that to start the 6TD-2 even in the summer it was necessary to start the heater if the air temperature was below 20 degrees, usually in the morning. You bring the coolant temperature to 60 degrees and you can start it. If you use oil injection, in the box there is such smoke after starting - white light is not visible. In addition, the engine pulls oil fog through the VO, which leads to its oiling, deterioration of air purification and, as a result, to dust wear. The fact that the 6TD-2 engine life is lower than that of the B-92C2. Although technologically and in terms of design thought, the 6TD-2 is a cut above. The six already worked in an intense mode, the loss of even 5 liters of coolant was monitored and signaled to the driver. A low coolant level definitely caused engine damage. You can’t fill the cooling system with water, only through a special sulfofilter from spare parts. He has a small resource, periodically it was necessary to regenerate by pouring salt water. If topped up with non-softened water, scale at a wild speed covers the internal cavity of the cooling jacket, which quickly leads to local overheating and to an engine accident. This trouble has been known since the exploitation of the five - in 6TD-2, with its increased critical conditions, it became even more relevant. In summer, the bypass duct was generally plugged, for the motor was constantly overheating on loose and slush - on clay soils and it was not in the desert !!!
      Six - “oiling”, oil waste is greater than on the B-92, and with an average consumption of motor resources, on the machines of the study group, with a daily mileage of about 100 km, after driving lessons we had to add 20 liters of oil.
      In the mountains, "Birch" did not happen to exploit, and drove 64 matches at a mountain range in Orekhovtsy. I will say responsibly, 1000TDF ate 5 liters of diesel fuel per 120 km. At the mountain tankodrome, the obstacle — the maximum ascent — had to be circled — 64 just skidded there, although on 62 it happened to climb steeper slopes. I confirm the lower dynamic characteristics of a two-stroke diesel engine against the “classics” when driving on hilly terrain by personal experience, at some elevations, in contrast to 72-ka, 64-ka was raised only with switching to lower gears. Fire hazard MTO Kharkov production - "The Parable of the Town." The joint of the gas turbine with the exhaust pipe is “dressed” in quilted “pants” made of heat-resistant fabric. The task of this device is to be a thermal barrier to prevent burnout of rubber goods. However, an almost insurmountable oil leak through the gas joint leads to the "pants" getting wet and their subsequent ignition, as a result: burnout of the oil pipe of the right BKP; oil leakage on the bottom; tank stop; fire in the MTO; PPO operation; "Sheer"; "Debriefing"; ogromvody ... I instead of trousers put a home-made screen of tin - I have never failed!
      Replacing the engine on the Birch - from after breakfast until dinner with lunch in the dining room with smoke breaks and without stress, replacing the engine on 72 - from dawn to dusk with meals in the field where “special song” is centering the engine with a guitar in the absence of necessary shims. Note: it is possible, of course, in both cases and faster, but in line with the educational process is not recommended ...
      Conclusion: two-stroke diesel engines of Kharkov production are certainly a design and technological masterpiece. The fact that there is a demand for them outside of Ukraine is another confirmation of this. However, IMHO, two-stroke diesel engines are a “dead end” of tank engine building because of their: high cost (own and operational), “capriciousness” and, say, not outstanding performance indicators.
  8. gych
    gych April 24 2013 12: 01 New
    +2
    some people like to scoop it up! foam from the mouth and we’re cooler! Russia will continue to push its weapons, but the Ukrainians will put sticks in wheels and it’s not surprising that this is a business! extinguished) Ukraine is competing in the sale of weapons for the Russian Federation and here it will be a lie and a lie who will knock out a place in the sun. Now the Russians will zamusinut me
    1. Nikolko
      Nikolko April 24 2013 12: 17 New
      +2
      Let them enter the customs union, and then we’ll not only put sticks in them, but will also help in every possible way! And about gas, see for yourself: Belarusians are friends with us, we are in good relations, and at what price do we sell gas to them? Correctly below market. And Ukraine itself is to blame. Nehren as sh * ha from one to another !!!
    2. xan
      xan April 24 2013 14: 43 New
      +1
      Quote: gych
      now the Russians are going to mess me up

      Russians do not fall to minuses
      but ukry plus happy
    3. Flooding
      Flooding April 24 2013 16: 55 New
      +1
      Quote: gych
      what fraternal price of the Russian Federation for gas stood out

      Champion of the truth which sought ...
      And what does the champion say about the glorification of the OUN / UPA and other evil spirits?
      Or, perhaps, a true lover will go to LJ to cat forgiveness or some other Russian hater?
      And there will become a breast to defend the brotherhood of two nations?
    4. black
      black April 27 2013 17: 42 New
      0
      Yes, no, we will.
  9. Algor73
    Algor73 April 24 2013 12: 01 New
    0
    Nothing new, nothing objective. Disclosed (and then casual, one-sided) only the theme of the engine. But there is nothing about any fighting qualities. Not interested
    1. black_eagle
      black_eagle April 24 2013 13: 15 New
      0
      Quote: Algor73
      engine theme only

      Single engine note
  10. Aleks tv
    Aleks tv April 24 2013 12: 28 New
    +5
    Again twenty-five.
    The debate is again which of the brothers is better.

    Just one pimple on the left cheek, the other on the right. (after all the modernizations of the post-Soviet era).
    That’s all the difference.
    There is no need to dream of unification and healthy competition with the release of a joint product, but it's a pity. In Soviet times, at least somehow "constructively" fought ...
    You look at any article on this subject and you can immediately see what is custom-made: either by Kharkov or Tagil, there is no desire to even read.

    Everyone thinks only about money, but who thinks about tanks? Probably Ivan Fedorovich Kruzenshtern. (just sad humor)
    1. egor1974
      egor1974 April 25 2013 11: 28 New
      0
      hold on
    2. egor1974
      egor1974 April 25 2013 11: 29 New
      +1
      support
  11. _KM_
    _KM_ April 24 2013 12: 33 New
    +3
    Concerning the exhaust and the challenger. Competition can easily be.
    1. Kars
      Kars April 24 2013 12: 49 New
      0
      Quote: _KM_
      Competition can easily be.

      There was still a joke when the British accused the French at Leclerc that they had driven a light tank, and demanded a control weigh-in.
      1. Prohor
        Prohor April 24 2013 12: 55 New
        +2
        And who won in the end? Leopard?
        1. Kars
          Kars April 24 2013 13: 18 New
          0
          Quote: Prokhor
          Leopard?

          Leopard.
        2. black_eagle
          black_eagle April 24 2013 13: 19 New
          -2
          Leopard is still a Mercedes, you know the proverb "They meet by their clothes ..." recently there was a photo report from an exhibition in Abu Dhabi, look at the photo, there are three T-90MS tanks, Leopard and BM, just look at the details and not in general, Leopard head and shoulders above in layout, we have sights like periscopes on a submarine, a stupid target for snipers with machine gunners, and in Leopard, everything is hidden and removed, in short, we will learn from the Germans all our lives
          1. Kars
            Kars April 24 2013 13: 24 New
            0
            Quote: black_eagle
            Leopard is a cut above the layout, we have sights like periscopes

            Here it is not necessary, the BM Oplot was not a bid on the Greek tender. Regarding re-scans, everything is about the same.
            1. Kars
              Kars April 24 2013 13: 26 New
              0
              ______________
            2. black_eagle
              black_eagle April 24 2013 13: 37 New
              +2
              Had to plagiarize
              1. black_eagle
                black_eagle April 24 2013 13: 39 New
                +1
                Contagious, does not immediately lay out everything!
                1. heavytank
                  heavytank April 24 2013 16: 01 New
                  -2
                  it was also necessary to add armor protection and anti-aircraft guns for combating flying vehicles.
              2. Kars
                Kars April 24 2013 13: 39 New
                0
                It’s about the same thing, it’s just in the eye and the Skradyvet’s left has an aiming system and the dimensions of the tower.
                1. black_eagle
                  black_eagle April 24 2013 13: 47 New
                  +1
                  I won’t say anything about the combat characteristics, neither side gave my tank to be shot, I am silent about survivability, the German mayors coolly raked off Russian (Kharkov) tractors in the Second World War, but for the buyer, especially the European one, convenience and ergonomics for the crew in the first place, no one is going to fight, but ride with chic, yes
                  1. Kars
                    Kars April 24 2013 13: 52 New
                    +1
                    Quote: black_eagle
                    no one is going to fight but ride with chic wow
                    1. black_eagle
                      black_eagle April 24 2013 16: 55 New
                      0
                      Still, I’m not particularly familiar with tank history, but I want to know how to rummage through laziness, were there any complaints about the Leopard from the side of the operating side? By battle hars?
                      1. Kars
                        Kars April 24 2013 18: 54 New
                        0
                        Quote: black_eagle
                        By battle hars?

                        But he was in battle? And in Afghanistan, he shows himself a little better than the T-62, due to the thermal imager.
              3. black_eagle
                black_eagle April 24 2013 13: 41 New
                0
                The latter, just for visual comparison, especially in our mudguards stand out, probably bent on the knee
                1. Kars
                  Kars April 24 2013 13: 50 New
                  0
                  Well, I don’t know the mud flaps, is it really important?
                  1. black_eagle
                    black_eagle April 24 2013 14: 55 New
                    -3
                    before you are two Lada Priora cars and a Volkswagen Golf with identical performance characteristics, what do you take? why?
                    1. Kars
                      Kars April 24 2013 15: 23 New
                      +4
                      Quote: black_eagle
                      Before you are two Lada Priora cars and Volkswagen Golf with identical performance characteristics, what do you take? why

                      It is not worth comparing tanks with vehicles.
                      1. black_eagle
                        black_eagle April 24 2013 16: 50 New
                        -2
                        It is worth noting the obvious difference in the product, but the trend in build quality, in the ergonomics of the workplace of the tank driver, the approach to the quality of the final product and the convenience of its maintenance. This trend is seen in everything from household appliances to the most complex, for example, airplanes, we are flying here, it is noticeable to the naked eye. Therefore, if there is a Leopard in the tender and if the customer is not greedy, he will choose it
                      2. Kars
                        Kars April 24 2013 18: 52 New
                        0
                        Quote: black_eagle
                        It’s not about the obvious difference in the product,

                        Which machine to compare the T-55? T-80? with Lada or Muscovite?
                        Maybe OF-40 and Ariete is a maseratti?
                        Challenger Bentley, Leclerc Peugeot?
                        What about a bentley or peugeot in battle?
                        Quote: black_eagle
                        Therefore, if there is a Leopard in the tender and if the customer is not greedy, he will choose it

                        And make expensive stupidity, which will punish him in battle.
                        What kind of car do the Jews produce? What does Merkava compare with?
                      3. black_eagle
                        black_eagle April 24 2013 23: 16 New
                        0
                        I understood what you mean, but nevertheless I do not refuse my words, the Germans thought much better about the crew than we did. Even in WWII, when a German tank was knocked out, our fighters first climbed into the car from the seats, cut off the skin on boots, and the commander’s seat always got to the knocked-out
                      4. Kars
                        Kars April 24 2013 23: 27 New
                        +2
                        Quote: black_eagle
                        the first thing we climbed into the car from the seats was cut off the skin on boots

                        these are fairy tales
                        Quote: black_eagle
                        Germans thought about the crew much better than us.

                        dead usually don't care.
                      5. svp67
                        svp67 1 June 2013 08: 17 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kars
                        dead usually don't care.

                        For that there is no living ...
        3. Aleks tv
          Aleks tv April 24 2013 18: 43 New
          +3
          Quote: black_eagle
          especially in our mud flaps stand out, probably bent on the knee

          They are rubber, not iron. Sloths are closing. So more practical in operation.
          1. black_eagle
            black_eagle April 24 2013 23: 18 New
            -1
            Yes, this is a combat vehicle, but its purpose is to kill, but is it really impossible to do it more accurately, the machine is for millions and they save on trifles as always
          2. svp67
            svp67 1 June 2013 08: 18 New
            0
            Quote: Aleks tv
            They are rubber, not iron. Sloths are closing. So more practical in operation.

            More practical - no words, of course YES. But their main task is to fight dust and dirt ...
  12. black
    black April 27 2013 17: 53 New
    0
    People are fighting. My information about the current German army makes me doubt its high fighting spirit. Mercedes is a good thing, of course, but it won’t go on a rotten collective farm solarium.
  • Andrew 121
    Andrew 121 April 24 2013 14: 01 New
    +5
    Hmm ... for me both tanks are so good and their ancestor T-72 went through the most cruel and merciless among modern tanks "school of life". He (T-72) showed himself to be a reliable, simple and unpretentious tank, which is what a soldier needs. Therefore, the T-84 and T-90 tanks are just as good and reliable, I would say equal. There is no point in arguing here and splashing saliva, it is important to say GLORY to the weapons of the Slavic people soldier Do not argue, friends do not.
    1. black_eagle
      black_eagle April 24 2013 15: 04 New
      0
      Their ancestor T-64, 72-ki by the way, too
      1. Flooding
        Flooding April 24 2013 16: 50 New
        +1
        Quote: black_eagle
        Their ancestor T-64, 72-ki by the way, too

        Why did you, my friend, get this? Even Tarasenko has not thought of this yet:
        In accordance with the initial idea, the serial production of the T-64 was to be carried out in Nizhny Tagil, Leningrad and in Omsk. However, powerful regional party clans spared no efforts to disrupt the production of the Kharkov machine and develop its own tank instead to increase its influence on the military-industrial complex.
        In Nizhny Tagil, parallel development of its promising tank was carried out, so the decision to produce the T-64 there was sabotaged. Instead of producing the T-64 variant with the B-45 engine, the “Object 172M” developed there went into serial production, which, despite the external similarity, had little in common with the T-64 and was absolutely not unified with it.
        1. black_eagle
          black_eagle April 24 2013 16: 59 New
          0
          Where did you get this, my friend?
          The development of the T-72 began in 1967. In the course of further work, in 1968-69, comparative tests of T-64A tanks with a B-45 engine and an ejection cooling system (developed by the Kharkov Design Bureau of Mechanical Engineering) and samples with a B-45 engine, a 22-shot automatic gun loading gun and fan cooling system (development of a design bureau in Nizhny Tagil). The latter showed better results. In November 1969, B-46 engines with a capacity of 573 kW (780 hp) and a chassis of a new design began to be installed on these machines. The sample manufactured with the indicated changes was assigned the index “Object 172M”
          1. Flooding
            Flooding April 24 2013 17: 11 New
            +3
            Quote: black_eagle
            Where did you get this, my friend?

            After all, he wrote at Tarasenko:
            http://btvt.narod.ru/4/history/_45_2006.htm

            Quote: black_eagle
            The development of the T-72 began in 1967.

            Does this say anything about continuity? Nothing to me personally.
            That is, do you focus on the date of development and adoption?
            Will we give arguments or put the minuses further?
            1. black_eagle
              black_eagle April 24 2013 17: 31 New
              0
              I can slam the minus only for obvious nonsense, I do not suffer from injections stealthily in the discussion, we can argue anyway, so minus is not from me. This is a prelude, and now about what I focus on, I highlight once again
              V-46 engines with a capacity of 573 kW (780 hp) and a chassis of a new design began to be installed on these machines. The sample manufactured with the indicated changes was assigned the index “Object 172M”
              Read carefully from start to finish, i.e. they took the T-64, put two different engines, compared, improved the chassis and called the model 172M, which is already mentioned in your clipping
              1. Flooding
                Flooding April 24 2013 18: 03 New
                +2
                Quote: black_eagle
                Read carefully from start to finish, i.e. they took the T-64, put two different engines, compared, improved the chassis and called the model 172M

                Although with reservations, but in general I have to agree.
                Not improved, but used the chassis of the object 167.
                And, of course, do not forget about AZ.
                1. Alexander D.
                  Alexander D. April 24 2013 19: 47 New
                  0
                  Dear, look in the Yu-tube T-72 - there are many videos about the history of the creation of this tank and it will immediately become clear to you where the legs grow from. T-64 - the tank from which all the other tanks of the USSR were made, simply in Leningrad they did not remodel the story for themselves, but openly stated that they took the T-64 as the basis, and the UKBT were proud.
                  1. Bad_gr
                    Bad_gr April 24 2013 21: 01 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Alexander D.
                    ..... just in Leningrad they did not begin to remake history for themselves, but openly declared that they took the T-64 as a basis,

                    Yeah, they took the T-64, changed the case, put their chassis, their engine, their transmission, another tower with the original filling on the changed case.
                    And what is left of the T-64? except that the loading mechanism.
                    1. Alexander D.
                      Alexander D. April 24 2013 21: 54 New
                      0
                      That's right, only the hull was changed in the part of the MTO, the tower was left, unlike UVZ, which made its own tower to distinguish itself (under the slogan "to reduce the cost of production"), significantly inferior in characteristics to the T-64 tower. Then she had to be brought to mind.
                      And in the T-80, the chassis was not immediately replaced - at first they tried on the T-64 chassis, but quickly realized that it was not suitable for such loads with a gas turbine engine. The transmission changes by default along with the engine - you can try to put the transmission from the T-80 on the T-72, then tell us about your impressions.
                    2. svp67
                      svp67 1 June 2013 08: 21 New
                      0
                      Quote: Bad_gr
                      And what is left of the T-64? except that the loading mechanism.

                      Yes, a lot of what remains:
                      - angles of inclination of the frontal armor;
                      - the order of placement of the crew and the entire internal space;
                      - gun and main armament;
                      - part of the internal equipment ...
                      - the design of the "hydraulic control" cannot be distinguished, since the PMP has only little significant changes. Could have made them "unified" in general ...
    2. dikiybober
      dikiybober April 25 2013 07: 30 New
      0
      The ancestor of T-84 and T-80UD is T-64 and certainly not the Urals 2
  • roial
    roial April 24 2013 14: 07 New
    +8
    You would better compare the training of crews, the logistics of troops, and not measure millimeters of armor and horsepower of engines. A well-trained and well-coordinated crew on the old T-62 can do with dozens of your clever T-90s, which are managed by conscripts or contract soldiers with a 9-year education.
    And without an established maintenance system, even an advantage in the speed of removing the engine will not help, what's the difference that you remove the engine in 40 minutes. if spare parts will be brought up only in two days?
    From my own experience I can say that even the most indestructible equipment, most of our valiant military men easily turn into a pile of scrap metal that can only be written off.
    So, to indicate that the T-80 is weaker than the T-90 only on the basis of some millimeters, horsepower, I think is not correct. In history, you can find a lot of examples when a well-trained crew on a knowingly weak tank comes out victorious from the battle for the shield of their training.
    1. Akim
      Akim April 24 2013 14: 34 New
      +1
      Quote: roial
      So, to indicate that the T-80 is weaker than the T-90 only on the basis of some millimeters, horsepower, I think is not correct. In history, you can find a lot of examples when a well-trained crew on a knowingly weak tank comes out victorious from the battle for the shield of their training.

      Here I am about that earlier. You can not compare the car (tank) and battle tactics.
    2. vostok68
      vostok68 April 24 2013 14: 52 New
      0
      I hope you were not in the "crew" of a real tank, otherwise, I would be disappointed in our army!
    3. Crang
      Crang April 24 2013 19: 13 New
      +1
      Well, are you kidding? Yes, at least someone planted in the T-62 - he can not beat a dozen T-90. Even if 90-year-old NUBAs will sit in the T-12. If the guys who are in the T-90, even in theory, know how to press the buttons correctly, then this is a definite death for the T-62. Time does not stand still roial. The combat potential of the T-90 surpasses the T-62 (basic) once in 10, if not more. Cases when a tank which in TTX is much inferior to the opponent came out the winner in a duel can be counted on the fingers. This is mathematics alas.
  • washi
    washi April 24 2013 14: 43 New
    +2
    Stop swearing. Let both your and our tank factories sell to anyone they can. The main thing is that the tankers of Our countries do not meet on the battlefield. As was the case with the Georgian air defense, when Ukrainian instructors sat on the Ukrainian equipment. From this, the "love" for the inhabitants of the okraya increased incredibly.
  • desiscia
    desiscia April 24 2013 14: 52 New
    -1
    BM "Oplot" handsome, but they made fun of the 6TD-2 engine.
  • Ak 12
    Ak 12 April 24 2013 15: 02 New
    +1
    It makes no sense to compare these cars since both of them are good
  • gych
    gych April 24 2013 15: 12 New
    0
    Quote: xan
    Quote: gych
    now the Russians are going to mess me up

    Russians do not fall to minuses
    but ukry plus happy
    it can be seen as I wrote the minuses for me appearing and the pros for the article;) do not like the truth?
    1. Alexander D.
      Alexander D. April 24 2013 19: 52 New
      +3
      We love the truth, only in this article it was not visible. If you want the truth, please: V-84 and V-92 is a forced modification of the V-2 developed by Kharkov for the T-34 in the 30s of the 20th century. It’s time for him to erect a monument, and in the Russian Federation they still cannot develop a worthy alternative. Want more truth, follow the links below:
      http://topwar.ru/6777-ukraina-predstavila-novyy-tankovyy-dvigatel.html
      http://btvt.narod.ru/4/5td/5tdf.htm
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr April 24 2013 21: 12 New
        +1
        Quote: Alexander D.
        If you want the truth, please: V-84 and V-92 is a forced modification of the V-2 developed by Kharkov for the T-34 in the 30s of the 20th century.

        "If you want the truth - please:"
        Ukrainian tank engines (5TDF, 6TDF) are slightly remade German Jumo 205 (WWII)
        1. Alexander D.
          Alexander D. April 24 2013 21: 40 New
          +1
          You want even more truth: 5TDF is not a bit, but a rather thoroughly reworked engine (5TDF - 700 hp, 5TDFM - 850 hp, 5TDE - 900 hp, 5TDFMA - 1050 hp). And all versions work in the temperature regime of -40 ... + 50 degrees Celsius. 6TD - this is generally a new engine that was developed in the HKBD (6TD - 1000 hp, 6TD-2 - 1200 hp, 6TD-3 - 1500 hp)
          1. Bad_gr
            Bad_gr April 24 2013 22: 25 New
            +6
            Quote: Alexander D.
            5TDF is not a slightly, but rather thoroughly redesigned engine (5TDF - 700 hp, 5TDFM - 850 hp, 5TDE - 900 hp, 5TDFMA - 1050 hp).

            Oh how!
            It means "V-2-34, developed under the leadership of Chelpan Konstantin Fedorovich. Maximum engine power - 500 hp at 1800 rpm, nominal - 450 hp at 1750 rpm, operating - 400 hp." at 1700 rpm "- is the same engine that is now installed on the T-90 (only boosted to 1000-1130 hp),
            and Ukrainian engine builders, who made their engine on the basis of the German, have a completely different picture - they themselves developed everything.
            Do I understand correctly?
            1. Bad_gr
              Bad_gr April 24 2013 22: 46 New
              +1
              Engine T-34

              Engine T-90
              1. Alexander D.
                Alexander D. April 24 2013 23: 08 New
                0
                If you look for photos of the German and Ukrainian engines you mentioned above, I think you will find certain differences in them too.
            2. xan
              xan April 24 2013 22: 53 New
              -1
              Quote: Bad_gr
              and Ukrainian engine builders, who made their engine on the basis of the German, have a completely different picture - they themselves developed everything.
              Do I understand correctly?

              some inexperienced
              a discount must be made on what you are discussing with a Ukrainian
              1. Alexander D.
                Alexander D. April 24 2013 23: 07 New
                +1
                Ukrainians! Kharkov Tractor is a legacy of the invaders, like all the rest of your achievements. And M. Koshkin did not know that he was Ukrainian. Half a year of your national identity was enough for Kiev Bulgakov to escape to Russia. Koshkin would have escaped too.
                And what kind of minds do we all see for 22 years of independence.
                Your stupid unproven ambition makes you sick

                From now on I will make a discount on the fact that you have Nazi manners and you consider Ukrainians to be an inferior race.
                1. black
                  black April 27 2013 18: 04 New
                  +1
                  No, I personally think the same as it is written in some Ukrainian history textbooks. The Ukrainians are the most ancient "ukry" tribe that came to earth from Venus. But the landing seemed to be tough - an abundance of TBI with subsequent complications.
            3. Alexander D.
              Alexander D. April 24 2013 23: 16 New
              +2
              Oh how!
              It means "V-2-34, developed under the leadership of Chelpan Konstantin Fedorovich. Maximum engine power - 500 hp at 1800 rpm, nominal - 450 hp at 1750 rpm, operating - 400 hp." at 1700 rpm "- is the same engine that is now installed on the T-90 (only boosted to 1000-1130 hp),
              and Ukrainian engine builders, who made their engine on the basis of the German, have a completely different picture - they themselves developed everything.
              Do I understand correctly?

              It’s interesting to argue with you; excellent arguments are for you +.
              Answer on 5TD: http://btvt.narod.ru/4/5td/5tdf.htm
            4. Alexander D.
              Alexander D. April 25 2013 19: 40 New
              +1
              and Ukrainian engine builders, who made their engine on the basis of the German, have a completely different picture - they themselves developed everything.
              Do I understand correctly?

              Junkers' Suitcase — the Jumo 205 series of two-stroke turbo-turbine aircraft engines with oppositely moving pistons — was created in the early 30s of the twentieth century. The Jumo 205-C engine features the following: 6-cylinder, 600 hp piston stroke 2 x 160 mm, volume 16.62 l., compression ratio 17: 1, at 2.200 rpm.
              On the basis of these developments, A.D. Charomsky in 1947 created a two-stroke M-305 diesel engine with take-off power of 7360 kW (10 hp) and a single-cylinder engine compartment U-000 in the USSR in 305.
              In 1954 A.D. Charomsky comes up with a proposal to create a diesel engine for a medium tank based on the U-305. This proposal coincided with the requirement of the chief designer of the new tank A.A. Morozov, and A.D. Charomsky was appointed chief designer of the plant. V. Malysheva in Kharkov.
              Since the tank motor design bureau of this plant remained mainly in Chelyabinsk, A.D. Charomsky had to form a new design bureau, create an experimental base, set up pilot and serial production, and practice technology that the plant did not have.
              So there is the Soviet 4TPD. It was a working engine, but with one drawback - the power was just over 400 hp, which was not enough for the tank. Charomsky puts another cylinder and gets 5TD (entry 11.02.57).
              Vladimir, nevertheless, there we digged heavily before we received 5tdf.
              Sincerely.
              1. Bad_gr
                Bad_gr April 25 2013 20: 15 New
                +2
                Quote: Alexander D.
                nevertheless, there we digged heavily before we received 5tdf.

                I didn’t doubt it.
                I recall Jumo 205 only when Tarasenko says that the T-90 engine is just an improved engine from the Kharkov-designed T-34, and for some reason it is hushed up that the 5tdf did not appear from scratch, but thanks German developments.
                Vobshem, in the engine V-92S2 as much Kharkov, as in 5-6tdf German.
                Yours faithfully,
                Vladimir
                1. Alexander D.
                  Alexander D. April 25 2013 20: 46 New
                  +1
                  Nevertheless, the B-92 no longer corresponds to modern tanks.
                  Appreciate the T-90CM at IDEX 2013

                  Still, it's time to develop something new in the Russian Federation. And there is nothing terrible if they take something from Western standards as a basis: much was created in the USSR like that.
                  1. Bad_gr
                    Bad_gr April 25 2013 23: 06 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Alexander D.
                    Nevertheless, the B-92 no longer corresponds to modern tanks.

                    And what does it not correspond to? The T-90ms has an engine of 1130 horses. And develops them at 2000 rpm. Engines 5-6tdf give their power at 3000 rpm, which is not a plus for a tank engine and retain this power, like all highly accelerated engines in a very narrow speed range. A little momentum dipped and that’s all, there is no power. The multi-liter B-92 has no such problems.
                    By the way, in terms of power by weight, they are quite comparable (I will not look for numbers - they flashed here more than once)
                  2. heavytank
                    heavytank April 28 2013 21: 59 New
                    0
                    so can be upgraded if required. just need money and work.
  • Bongo
    Bongo April 24 2013 15: 54 New
    +4
    Pakistan purchased the T-84 by necessity, since it was not possible to purchase tanks in Russia.
    1. Phantom Revolution
      Phantom Revolution April 24 2013 17: 10 New
      +2
      This is yes, since packs are not such a large arms market as the Indians.
      1. Akim
        Akim April 24 2013 17: 24 New
        -1
        Quote: Phantom Revolution
        Paki is not such a large arms market as the Indians.

        The Pakistan population is like 2 / 3 Europe.
        1. Phantom Revolution
          Phantom Revolution April 24 2013 23: 01 New
          +2
          Quote: Akim
          The Pakistan population is like 2 / 3 Europe.

          Yes, even as in China, they have no money, the Indians have it. And for the sake of 10 pieces, nobody will break the relationship with the Indians.
          1. Akim
            Akim April 25 2013 01: 04 New
            -1
            Quote: Phantom Revolution
            Yes, even as in China, they have no money, the Indians have it.

            They have in proportion to the same amount of money as in India. Indians also have a country of contrasts. There are such excesses. The middle class is absent. There, either the rich or the bulk of a billion live on 3-4 dollars a day.
            1. Phantom Revolution
              Phantom Revolution April 25 2013 21: 44 New
              0
              Quote: Akim
              They have in proportion to the same amount of money as in India. Indians also have a country of contrasts. There are such excesses. The middle class is absent. There, either the rich or the bulk of a billion live on 3-4 dollars a day.

              So, we’re not talking about the population, it doesn’t buy tanks and weapons. It buys the state. Judging by the military budget of India and Pakistan, one can say who has more money. It is also possible to breed polemics about China. And also about the United States, which is a bankrupt country, but has a huge military budget.
              1. Akim
                Akim April 25 2013 22: 35 New
                -1
                Quote: Phantom Revolution
                Judging by the military budget of India and Pakistan, one can say who has more money.

                The point is not that Pakistan spends 3,5 times less on defense than India. India has 2 borders with potential adversaries and + the construction of fleet and armored vehicles Islamabad is half the price and China throws a lot on the cheap. So Pakistan’s defense budget generally consistent.
    2. Akim
      Akim April 24 2013 17: 28 New
      -1
      Pakistan was not going to buy tanks in Russia. After nuclear tests, he went all-in and looked for new tanks in Europe, but everyone refused him. And India, too, was forced to buy the T-90S in Russia, because in those days they didn’t line up for tenders, but it was necessary to respond with something worthy.
      1. Phantom Revolution
        Phantom Revolution April 24 2013 23: 04 New
        +1
        What right now doesn’t buy the same strongholds?) Do not tell, Ukraine is not able to issue large parties, even at the light of time they have broken in terms. Alas, these are not 900 tanks to sell. Capacities are not the same.
        1. Akim
          Akim April 25 2013 01: 12 New
          0
          Quote: Phantom Revolution
          What right now doesn’t buy the same strongholds?) Do not tell, Ukraine is not able to issue large parties, even at the light of time they have broken in terms.

          I'm not interested in arguing who is longer and thicker. Thailand buys armored personnel carriers, tanks, KrAZ trucks - pleased with their quality. Technically, the BTR-3E1 differs from the BTR-4 only in the shape of the hull and is accordingly similar to the BTR-80/82 in it. In fact, its components are practically not interchangeable with the Russian machine (except in arms).
          1. Phantom Revolution
            Phantom Revolution April 25 2013 12: 55 New
            0
            Quote: Akim
            I'm not interested in arguing who is longer and thicker. Thailand buys armored personnel carriers, tanks, KrAZ trucks - pleased with their quality.

            This is a fact, Iraq was not able to deliver on time and on time. Those. this may indicate that capacities cannot cope with a larger supply. We didn’t talk about quality, and I don’t have the desire and time to breed tank srach. How much do not talk about quality, but this can not affect the capacity of the plant itself.
            1. Kars
              Kars April 25 2013 12: 58 New
              0
              Quote: Phantom Revolution
              This is a fact, Iraq was not able to deliver on time and on time.

              what are you? like your Arzam plant didn’t plan to deliver BTR-82 to the troops, what now?

              By the way, Gurk Khan has already canceled the contract for BTR-4 with Iraq four times))))
              1. Phantom Revolution
                Phantom Revolution April 25 2013 14: 50 New
                0
                It began, about the BTR-82 everything has already been disclosed in one of the news branches, look for it yourself. As for contracts and fines, look for yourself since there is a new topic on the Internet.
                1. Kars
                  Kars April 25 2013 14: 56 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Phantom Revolution
                  about BTR-82 everything has already been revealed in one of the news branches, look for yourself

                  What should I look for there 7 or do you want to say that the plan is done?
                  Quote: Phantom Revolution
                  look for yourself the benefit is there is not a new topic on the Internet

                  thats exactly what I mean
                  Quote: Kars
                  By the way, Gurk Khan has already canceled the contract for BTR-4 with Iraq four times))))

                  and shipments go and are accepted
                  1. Phantom Revolution
                    Phantom Revolution April 25 2013 21: 54 New
                    0
                    Quote: Kars
                    What should I look for there 7 or do you want to say that the plan is done?

                    There, the reason is revealed why the plan failed, and yet the plant was not ready for these figures.
                    Quote: Kars
                    and shipments go and are accepted

                    Well, why they are not accepted, it seems, as I understand it, on 3 I received a green discount. But there are graters. I bought a yab for that price).

                    To be honest, I’ll explain more simply, do you know how much the plant will cost, refusal of delivery? A lot, 2-3 times the cost of this contract. Example C-300 with Iran. Not everything is so simple and cannot be said, but what for you are needed. + This is a blow to the plant itself, to its image, etc. Buyers who are already not so much will be even smaller.

                    But I will say this BTR-4, better than the 82, in many directions.) Alas, I am waiting for the Kurgan, although I know these are different weight categories.
  • Apollo
    Apollo April 24 2013 16: 41 New
    +4
    watching this video, without hesitation, you can say which tank is the most, the most tank good

    1. anton107798
      anton107798 April 24 2013 18: 45 New
      +2
      Quote: Apollon
      watching this video, without hesitation, you can say which tank is the most, the most tank


      it would be amazing if the Germans or Israelis made a film where their tank would be poorly shown ... this film advertises a tank that exists in a single copy ... nothing more to say
      1. Apollo
        Apollo April 24 2013 19: 03 New
        +5
        Quote: anton107798
        it would be amazing if the Germans or Israelis made a film where their tank would be poorly shown ... this film advertises a tank that exists in a single copy ... nothing more to say


        I knew that I would earn a minus, but I didn’t know from whom. lol I won’t put it to you in principle. As for your quote, I’ll answer as follows: Russia’s defenses and, in particular, tank building have been destroyed for decades (Gorbachev + Yeltsin), what do you want everyone to do so quickly? There is such a parable that only cats will be born quickly. laughing
        1. anton107798
          anton107798 April 24 2013 19: 16 New
          +5
          [quote = Apollon] The defense industry of Russia and tank building in particular have been destroyed for decades [/ quote

          so I do not mind! you are welcome! sell, develop ... just after the conclusion of contracts for the supply of something from Ukraine, such articles appear. where, as it were, the question is asked - "it's strange why Ukrainian? After all, they do bad things, it's better here!" and immediately comparison ... only the question arises - who is in the way? Do you know how ordinary people in Ukraine react to the sale of something by your defense industry to someone else? I will say - not how! absolutely not how! But the Russian people, as you can see on this site, react to the successes of Ukraine in a completely different way, and why? unclear
          1. Nazrug
            Nazrug April 25 2013 02: 22 New
            0
            I made fun of it, you could believe it if there weren’t a single Ukrainian on this site. Here, a lot of negative is written about Americans, for example, but I don’t see Americans with foam at the mouth proving something, so I believe that they really do not care, but you don’t. Maybe you have complexes, I don’t know.
          2. black
            black April 27 2013 18: 41 New
            0
            The common Russian people are interested in completely different problems. And the sale to Pakistan of tuned "zaparozhtsev" with an engine of the "know-how of the first half of the 20th century" type ... Well, that's it, joke.
        2. anton107798
          anton107798 April 24 2013 19: 18 New
          0
          Quote: anton107798
          I knew that I would earn minus

          By the way, I didn’t minus you, and I’m not going to. I wrote my point of view, that’s all.
          1. anton107798
            anton107798 April 24 2013 19: 21 New
            +1
            but they like me)))) not really offensive? Well, at least they would drop a word, and not put a minus ... but apparently nothing to say
      2. BlackCat
        BlackCat April 24 2013 21: 16 New
        +1
        Quote: anton107798
        this film advertises a tank that exists in a single copy ... nothing more to say

        And there are ten "Oplotov" (T-84). Is there anything to talk about?
        1. Alexander D.
          Alexander D. April 24 2013 23: 21 New
          0
          Not 10 anymore. In May 2013, the delivery of the first batch of BM Oplot to the customer. If I’m not mistaken, 29 cars, although I don’t presume to say for sure.
  • gych
    gych April 24 2013 17: 14 New
    0
    Quote: Flood
    Quote: gych
    what fraternal price of the Russian Federation for gas stood out

    Champion of the truth which sought ...
    And what does the champion say about the glorification of the OUN / UPA and other evil spirits?
    Or, perhaps, a true lover will go to LJ to cat forgiveness or some other Russian hater?
    And there will become a breast to defend the brotherhood of two nations?

    Do you understand what you wrote?
    1. Flooding
      Flooding April 24 2013 17: 21 New
      0
      Quote: gych
      Do you understand what you wrote?

      Probably rushed to conclusions. Really nothing reprehensible.
      Just caught the intonation of your posts and decided to answer in unison.
      I thought - another Russophobe.
      If offended - sorry.
      PS
      What is actually incomprehensibly written?
  • gych
    gych April 24 2013 17: 29 New
    +2
    just reading statements like Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Ukraine, brothers forever, but as for money, Ukraine and tries ... no one needs it! or even cooler everything that Ukraine produces woof ... oh, not like in Russia! and tobacco in the rose
    1. Akim
      Akim April 24 2013 17: 38 New
      -1
      There is a good Russian proverb: "Friendship is friendship, and tobacco apart." In those industries where there is no competition and business interests do not collide, there is no such hot obsession.
    2. Flooding
      Flooding April 24 2013 17: 44 New
      0
      Quote: gych
      just reading statements like Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Ukraine, brothers forever, but as for money, Ukraine and tries ... no one needs it! or even cooler everything that Ukraine produces woof ... oh, not like in Russia! and tobacco in the rose

      That is, in general, you confirm my innocence.
      The truth is that you are considering the issue one-sidedly.
      At this time, take seriously my advice to visit the resources of Ukrainian. nationalists.
      There you will get food for thought.
  • gych
    gych April 24 2013 17: 38 New
    0
    Probably rushed to conclusions. Really nothing reprehensible.
    Just caught the intonation of your posts and decided to answer in unison.
    I thought - another Russophobe [/ quote]
    Russophobes obviously do not speak Russian!
    1. Flooding
      Flooding April 24 2013 18: 05 New
      +4
      Quote: gych
      Russophobes obviously do not speak Russian!

      If. And even in Russian-language forums they litter.
  • Alekseev
    Alekseev April 24 2013 18: 04 New
    +2
    Spears break at the "experts".
    Some patriots of their own countries already spray foam.
    It seems that only yesterday from Pakistan (India, Syria), or at least from the landfill. Jumped off, so to speak, from dusty armor. But in fact, the tank was only seen in the news on TV (or on the VO site smile)
    Modern weapons, including tanks, are not purchased purely according to the criterion of worse or better. In contracts, the political component is of great importance. Only a complete outraged patriot can, for example, seriously think that Iraq bought armored personnel carriers and something else in Ukraine because all this is highly advanced technology. Better, they say, another. No, the technique is so-so. But Iraq was told to buy. This is a bonus to those in power in Ukraine for "good" behavior. From whom? You know from whom. And so almost everywhere.
    As for the T-90 tanks and his Ukrainian counterpart. Then they are really approximately the same in terms of performance characteristics.
    Of course, push-pull diesels, all of these TDs are not the best option. But they sell it cheaply, with a margin, resource, profitability, ecology for the tank are not so important. Talented Kharkov engineers managed to ensure that 6TD can be satisfactorily exploited (and easily changed laughing ) For others, it’s fine, for Russia, thanks, no.
    True, the real workmanship is shrouded in darkness. Like the origin of the components. I won’t be surprised if there are a lot of components on tanks delivered to Pakistan, especially in armaments, from Russia (Indians don’t speak wink ) And do not console yourself with the illusion that the real state of affairs is being signed in the media.
    1. Kars
      Kars April 24 2013 18: 59 New
      0
      Quote: Alekseev
      about Iraq bought armored personnel carriers and something else in Ukraine because all this is a very advanced technique

      Like Venezuela, it’s not taking weapons from the Russian Federation because it gave it a loan from the Russian Federation.
      Quote: Alekseev
      . I won’t be surprised if the tanks delivered to Pakistan have many components, especially in armament, from Russia,

      Vryatli there is something there, PKT machine guns for example in Bulgaria bought
      1. Alekseev
        Alekseev April 24 2013 20: 23 New
        -1
        Quite right, who is arguing.
    2. Yemelya
      Yemelya April 24 2013 19: 08 New
      0
      I completely agree. The fact that the arms market is highly politicized can be read in all textbooks of economics.
      And let the amateurs measure the results of the tenders why the tender for the supply of tanks for Malaysia was won by Tvyardy.
  • Sashko07
    Sashko07 April 24 2013 18: 08 New
    +1
    Forgive me vuyku, but vyser towards Ukraine again failed laughing
    PS especially about the engine made laugh, the author would write humorous to you))))
    1. Alekseev
      Alekseev April 24 2013 18: 36 New
      +7
      Unlike you, laughter, I have been operating this motor for more than 10 years.
      But Ukraine is not about ..t.
      Only if herself ...
      1. Aleks tv
        Aleks tv April 24 2013 19: 13 New
        0
        Quote: Alekseev
        I have been operating this motor for over 10 years


        The namesake, it’s very interesting to hear from the practitioner about the operation of the 5-TDF and 6td. Itself only in B-46-6 and B-84 poked around.
        I have no claim to dvigla, so, in a nutshell at least.
        drinks
        1. Alexander D.
          Alexander D. April 24 2013 20: 04 New
          0
          About 5-tdf:
          http://topwar.ru/6777-ukraina-predstavila-novyy-tankovyy-dvigatel.html
          http://btvt.narod.ru/4/5td/5tdf.htm
          About 6-td:
          http://www.alexfiles99.narod.ru/engine/6td/6td-1.htm
        2. Alekseev
          Alekseev April 24 2013 20: 20 New
          +2
          I already wrote more than once.
          The motor has all the disadvantages of a two-stroke diesel engine. I don’t remember exactly, but it seems that nobody else uses them on tanks. (Yes on cars too smile )
          Heats up, loses power in the heat, prone to dust wear, oil eats, less economical than the B-84. If, for example, the T-62, you can put on a slight slope, squeeze hl. friction clutch, let it roll a couple of meters, release clutch and the car starts up, then here are some instances in order to start it in the summer I had to warm it with a heater. It is not advisable to tow a tank with a tank for a long time; sometimes a connecting rod breaks. It is impossible to repair in the troops. This applies, in fact, to any tank diesel, but especially TD.
          Exhaust manifolds go near the bottom. If the PPO is not working (the cylinders are empty, but only the squibs are inserted into the pro forma) and the fuel and lubricant leaks into the MTO, it will burn up already.
          I used to pour several buckets of water instead of PPO on the bottom. It soars, but does not burn. smile
          Excessively forced. The B-92 has 40 liters, 6td-16 liters of working volume. And the speed is 3000. There you can kill an elephant with a piston with a steel plate (so as not to burn out)! laughing
          Of the good, it’s easier to change. Centering is not needed, in front of the ball joint, behind the yoke.
          But in general, nothing, you can ride. (But watch out! laughing )
          1. Alexander D.
            Alexander D. April 24 2013 20: 32 New
            0
            For 6-TD at 55 Celsius, power loss is about 5%, for T-90 you know better. By the way, Malysheva plant concludes new contracts for the supply of its two-stroke engines every year: China, Pakistan - the most well-known contracts, T-72 for Ethiopia at the request of the customer were remotorized by 5tdfma (1050 hp).
            By the way, do not remind why the Indians call the T-90 a night butterfly? The correct answer: because during the day at a temperature of 45-50 degrees they stall and move on them only at night. You can read on the internet.
            1. Alekseev
              Alekseev April 24 2013 21: 36 New
              0
              I haven’t been ... laughing
              I did not discuss power loss with the Indians and blacks.
              I read advertising articles, but, as the classic said, "I don't believe."
              First you need to at least read the theory of engines, practice a platoon of combat training tanks, and then read articles on the internet.
              They get better.
          2. Aleks tv
            Aleks tv April 24 2013 20: 43 New
            0
            Quote: Alekseev
            I already wrote more than once.

            Thank you, Alexei, interesting.
            smile
      2. Sashko07
        Sashko07 April 24 2013 20: 18 New
        +3
        Similar articles are already banter over Ukraine, and there are a lot of them on the site. Such easy light trolling for yourself, they say your T-84 is not bad but our T-90 is better, but for some reason the author of the article did not write how your T-90 stalled in the desert during tests (the desert dust load engine could not stand it), when like T -84 calmly went all the way.
        1. Alekseev
          Alekseev 24 May 2013 19: 31 New
          0
          Banter over amateurs, and not over Ukraine, please distinguish!
  • Yemelya
    Yemelya April 24 2013 19: 11 New
    +2
    The article is not relevant for a long time, because it was published in "Tankomaster" already in 2000. sad
  • Alexander D.
    Alexander D. April 24 2013 19: 30 New
    0
    For such scribbling the author has to "take away the boat, the oars, and the net." Mixed up compares the T-90 with the T-80UD and T-84U Oplot. If anyone is interested in comparison with specific facts and figures:
    http://btvt.narod.ru/4/t84vst90skr2.htm
    And to the author in the next race I wish to study the published material more thoroughly, and not be likened to Khlopotov.
    1. Die-hard
      Die-hard April 24 2013 19: 42 New
      +1
      Quote: Alexander D.
      likened to Khlopotov.

      Both Tarasenka and Khlopotov are both clowns. Only one clown sometimes has an exclusive, and the other 24/7 pours shit on Tagil cars.
      1. Alexander D.
        Alexander D. April 24 2013 19: 59 New
        +2
        Here is one such exclusive from Uralvagonzavod.

        I hope you know the history of the T-34 and who is M. Koshkin
        1. anton107798
          anton107798 April 24 2013 20: 11 New
          +3
          mdaaaa .... the first car came from UVZ ... that's how the story is distorted! Evidently Koshkin worked in Nizhny Tagil and is probably buried there, but he was deceived all his life and said that he works in Kharkov ...
          It should be a shame ... but no one to be ashamed of
        2. xan
          xan April 24 2013 22: 41 New
          -3
          Quote: Alexander D.
          Here is one such exclusive from Uralvagonzavod.

          I hope you know the history of the T-34 and who is M. Koshkin

          Ukrainians! Kharkov Tractor is a legacy of the invaders, like all the rest of your achievements. And M. Koshkin did not know that he was Ukrainian. Half a year of your national identity was enough for Kiev Bulgakov to escape to Russia. Koshkin would have escaped too.
          And what kind of minds do we all see for 22 years of independence.
          Your stupid unproven ambition makes you sick
          1. Alexander D.
            Alexander D. April 24 2013 22: 58 New
            0
            This is no longer a constructive dialogue. Your ambition is even less reasoned. Learn the culture of communication, and then engage in dialogue with opponents.
          2. anton107798
            anton107798 April 24 2013 23: 27 New
            0
            Quote: xan
            Kharkov Tractor

            Tractor? there is such a plant, but HE DID NOT TANK OUT! learn the story! and if you don’t cook the pot, then I advise you to decipher the name of your factory-UVZ, which means Car Building! And since it is organized on the basis of the Kharkov plant, it’s logical to come to mind that the tanks are made not on the tractor, but on the Paravozostroitelny! and Tagil was not entrusted with paravozami, but only wagons
  • family tree
    family tree April 24 2013 20: 59 New
    +1

    I hope you know the history of the T-34 and who is M. Koshkin

    On the basis of government Decision No. 667 / SGKO dated September 12, 1941, the plant director Yu.E. Maksarev gave the order to curtail the plant and immediately evacuate it to the rear. The first train left the plant on September 19, 1941 and headed for the Uralvagonzavod in Nizhny Tagil, Sverdlovsk Region. He took away the designers of the tank design bureau, the technical drawing documentation of the tank and the most valuable equipment.

    The Kharkov plant evacuated to Nizhny Tagil and the local Uralvagonzavod were merged into one enterprise, which became known as the Ural Tank Plant No. 183. At this plant, the numbering of workshops and departments, adopted even before the war in Kharkov, was preserved. The Tank Design Bureau was still called the “520 Division.” The main designer, as in Kharkov, was A.A. Morozov.

    December 8, 1941 the Ural Tank Plant launched the first T-34 tank, and in April 1942, the plant exceeded the pre-war level of production of these military vehicles.

    wink But he who does not know, will think that the first T-34 from UVZ came out. And the text is from the official site of HCMB. In general, this cf-hch, the HCBM versus UVZ, was pretty tired of it, and the little article, so-so, amateurish, though copied from a serious magazine.
  • Avenger711
    Avenger711 April 24 2013 21: 02 New
    0
    Thank you neighing over the "peremogy". And there are many T-80s left in the square for rework?
    1. Alexander D.
      Alexander D. April 24 2013 21: 34 New
      -1
      And for what purpose are you interested in? If you want to buy, make an official request to Ukrspetsexport.
      But seriously, in non-profitable people they constantly work their heads and machines have long been created an order of magnitude better than the T-80UD, which, unfortunately, is not in the Great and powerful.
      1. xan
        xan April 24 2013 22: 27 New
        -1
        Quote: Alexander D.
        And for what purpose are you interested in? If you want to buy, make an official request to Ukrspetsexport.
        But seriously, in non-profitable people they constantly work their heads and machines have long been created an order of magnitude better than the T-80UD, which, unfortunately, is not in the Great and powerful.

        Links can confirm your words? The fact that there is full ambition is already evident.
        1. Alexander D.
          Alexander D. April 25 2013 19: 55 New
          +2
          What links do you throw off? If you think that the T-90 in its performance characteristics is superior to the T-80U, then this is a clinic. Medicine is powerless here.
          Regarding Ukrainian tanks, Google can help you (http://btvt.narod.ru). Each subsequent tank developed at the KHKBM after the T-80UD was an order of magnitude better in terms of maneuverability, protection and SLA. Firepower did not change due to the lack of new shells (except for Combat UR).


          1. Alekseev
            Alekseev 24 May 2013 19: 38 New
            +1
            We need links to him! laughing
            We ourselves were there1 lol
  • niklev65
    niklev65 April 24 2013 21: 44 New
    +4
    Hello, to all Ukrainian friends from Russia! Thank you for not forgetting and upgrading the 64-ku. This legendary and beloved tank by me. For two years he served in the Desna in 84-86. My regiment was based on it ( one more on T-62, and one on T-10). Of course, my opinion is subjective, but I, as a driver-mechanic, fell in love with him. I drove about a thousand km on it (I was a "primer"), and the instructor's "fuel oil" the order is bigger. And in the service staff it is not difficult, all repairs are conscripts (a couple of warrant officers per regiment does not count). And the cadets were trained for a maximum of 3,4 months (although the most intelligent and talented commanders and gunners, but to us ...). in a word, not a tank, but a song ... I think the subsequent upgrades are no worse!
    1. Die-hard
      Die-hard April 25 2013 00: 21 New
      -3
      Of course, you painted everything well, but the T-80UD and its further development to the T-64 are very mediocre; in fact, there is only a fighting compartment related there - and that kinship is more distant and hell knows how much holy one, if direct.
    2. Argon
      Argon April 25 2013 03: 00 New
      -1
      Well, the training center and the usual combat unit, things are quite different. And what is the norm for letting the equipment out of the park, you remembered the tall one once and even when the goose went by the cattle completely around (the cadets) will help.
  • YuDDP
    YuDDP April 24 2013 21: 54 New
    +3
    Quote: Greyfox
    By the way, also through "a".

    By the way, after "by the way" is a comma.
    1. Greyfox
      Greyfox April 25 2013 07: 59 New
      -1
      Thanks for the correction, I try to keep track of the spelling, but sometimes it happens .... And yet
      Prikhveet)))
      I don’t need to pass on my Russian teacher to me. hi
      1. Kars
        Kars April 25 2013 09: 23 New
        0
        Quote: Greyfox
        I don’t need to pass on to my teacher of Russian
        Pass from me and
        Well, why forget such a man who instead of thinking drove a spelling into his head.
        1. Greyfox
          Greyfox April 25 2013 09: 39 New
          0
          Surely before, you are our thinker .... Think farther and dumber crying
          1. Kars
            Kars April 25 2013 09: 44 New
            -1
            Quote: Greyfox
            Think farther and stupid

            so what?
            Quote: Kars
            Two periodicals, if you were careful, and did not sit checking spelling. And something from you didn’t get anything to read? What is it?

            Quote: Kars
            article and what about complaints? how much gurchik gives KBZ 3 shots?))))

            ??
            1. Greyfox
              Greyfox April 25 2013 10: 32 New
              +1
              "Technics and Armament" magazine 06/2008. Article "Russia is not going to buy Ukrainian tanks." Look for the guns yourself. And I could still dig up such a shit (without calling it a monograph). It is not necessary to cite the agitation of Ukrainian television as arguments for the An-70. What is typical, I am not saying that Russia does not need the plane. Brought to mind is very much even needed. I am amused by your puffing of cheeks about "yes, we will make and produce it!" Well, what about the snot of Russia according to your text. Because without the main customer (Russia) the project is doomed to die (also as without orders from Russia An-148 would have already died). You do not understand this and do not want to understand. Which once again confirms that illiteracy goes hand in hand with backwardness (not by me). Voshchem PriKhveeT))). I am not sitting.
              1. Akim
                Akim April 25 2013 11: 32 New
                -1
                Quote: Greyfox
                blowing cheeks about "yes, we will make it and feed it"! "Well, what about the snot of Russia according to your text. Because without the main customer (Russia), the project is doomed to die (just as without orders from Russia, An- 148).

                There are more than a hundred orders for the An-158 and about the same for the An-148. More than fifty orders for the An-140. And a preliminary agreement with Pakistan for the supply of AN-178 in the "MP" version (naval patrol). And the main customer is not Russia, but Iran (because there are no American spare parts there). Therefore, Cuba buys 12 aircraft. So the project is not pulled by the ears, but it is better to talk about it not in the tank topic.
                1. Greyfox
                  Greyfox April 25 2013 12: 15 New
                  +1
                  There are more than a hundred orders for An-158 and about the same for An-148 Total: 200 (source Akim)
                  - How many orders do you have?

                  - Today we have firm contracts for the 41 An-148 and 39 - An-158 aircraft. I can’t name the customers.
                  Total: 80 Source below.

                  President of Antonov Dmitry Kiva. 17 / 04 / 2013.

                  In the new version of the draft State Program "Development of the Aviation Industry" for 2013-2025, published on the website of the Ministry of Industry and Trade of Russia, significant changes have taken place regarding the fate of the further production of regional passenger aircraft An-148 in Russia at JSC "Voronezh Joint-Stock Aircraft Manufacturing Company" (VASO ).

                  The initial draft of the program was actively criticized for the lack of attention to the An-148 aircraft produced at VASO. Its new version provides for a very large state order for 38 such aircraft for government customers.



                  Everything, storytellers, has now definitely left the topic. You can still take a shit and have fun.
                  1. Akim
                    Akim April 25 2013 12: 47 New
                    -1
                    Come back! I will give you a link to the site. Read there. And do not pull only the pieces you like out of contexts. Although I use not only such sources. There are open, but less public. As for 200 planes - I really bent it. But 120-130 pieces will be typed. http://www.wing.com.ua/
                2. Alekseev
                  Alekseev April 28 2013 10: 11 New
                  0
                  Akim, how many planes were assembled in Ukraine in 012? repeat
                  Orders ...
                  We all know how to read and watch the news.
                  1. Akim
                    Akim April 28 2013 15: 47 New
                    -1
                    Quote: Alekseev
                    how many planes were assembled in Ukraine in 012?

                    In Ukraine 2012, 10 aircraft were assembled: 5-An-32, 3 An-148, 1 An-74, 1 An-140. This year it is planned to assemble 15 aircraft. Out of 12 An-148/158.
              2. Kars
                Kars April 25 2013 11: 34 New
                0
                Quote: Greyfox
                Look for the cannons yourself

                Yes, no, you really try))))
                Quote: Greyfox
                b.No need to cite agitations of Ukrainian television as arguments for the An-70.

                I bring agitation Russian television))))
                Quote: Greyfox
                I am amused by your puffing of cheeks about "yes, we will make it and feed it ourselves!"
                laughter prolongs life, but we definitely cannot do it, we still have a chance.

                Quote: Greyfox
                Voschem Prikhveet))). I am no longer sitting in the subject.

                Really)))

                The answer of TAGILIAN unnamed experts))) oh yes how will they tell the truth about their failure))) as in Thai, Moroccan, Indonesian tenders)))
                1. Kars
                  Kars April 25 2013 11: 56 New
                  -1
                  By the way, where is the moment of the combat use of the T-90S against Pakistan? Why is this valiant event not on the track record? How many hundreds of Pakistani T-80UDs were knocked out?
  • barbiturate
    barbiturate April 25 2013 14: 39 New
    +2
    the best tank is the one that is produced in a sufficiently large series and enters the masses in large numbers, all childhood illnesses and shortcomings will be immediately visible, soldiers and officers will master the equipment. Also, as a result of mass exploitation, weak strongholds will be visible and it will be clear where to go further + whether the army operating this tank will be able to create a competent and trained crew for it, etc. There is an advantage, in my opinion, for the T-90. Frankly, Ukrainian developments are impressive. The T-84 looks solid, as it is more brutal and more secure). Only its real characteristics, not declared ones, are incomprehensible. You can write anything you want, you need a series, a larger number, you need feedback from soldiers and officers who served on it. The T-84 does not have the norms of the series, which means there will be childhood diseases. If a tank goes into the troops in dozens of units, everything will be brought to the declared characteristics and parameters, then it may well turn out to be better than the T-90, only the creators of the T-90 do not stand still and this is normal, someone took one turn forward, someone else) Constructors Cup, but need a series)
  • Akim
    Akim April 26 2013 12: 00 New
    0
    vkrkoneyleynlfnr
  • sscha
    sscha April 27 2013 17: 08 New
    -1
    Quote: Greyfox
    In general, I don’t take part in srach anymore ...

    And rightly so. There's no point. And when you compare the data on cars in the material with the data on cars in the comments of KARSA, and this: the mass of the car, the power of the engine, you begin to doubt such an indicator as the specific power given by KARSOM!
    1. Kars
      Kars April 27 2013 17: 24 New
      -1
      Quote: sscha
      you begin to doubt such an indicator as specific power given by KARSOM!

      If in doubt, give your own figures, or are you not happy with the fact of the existence of such an indicator?
  • Vereshagin
    Vereshagin April 28 2013 12: 50 New
    +1
    After reading the article and the comments on it, I was once again convinced of the validity of the statement: “the topic is sour, it amused the discussion!”
    Regarding the Pakistani contract: firstly, the supply by Russia in particular of guns would be regarded by India, Pakistan's geopolitical rival, as a betrayal, with all possible consequences; secondly, cooperation in the military-technical sphere with Ukraine, whose leaders at that time in memorable time “on every corner” declared the MAP in NATO, the leadership of the Russian Federation did not consider it possible. We should not forget that during this period a counter-terrorist operation was underway in Chechnya with tragic consequences, and at the same time, militants were treated in Ukrainian sanatoriums for money - of course, they gave them broadcast on TV as moral support, and the politically-conscious politicians, in every possible way, showed their solidarity with the “fraternal Chechen people”, they kicked Russia at all the gay-political political partners.
    So, pan Kars, Russia, in fact, could not disrupt the Pakistani contract, because for a number of reasons, including the above, it formally consisted of only fraternal, but not relevant contractual relations with Ukraine !!! As one movie hero said: “That's what guys. I won’t give you a machine gun! ”
    However, without going into details, Ukraine nevertheless fulfilled the contract with Pakistan, which confirms its high technological potential!
    1. Kars
      Kars April 28 2013 13: 55 New
      -1
      Quote: Vereshagin
      So, pan Kars, Russia, in fact, could not disrupt the Pakistani contract, because for a number of reasons, including the above, it formally consisted of only fraternal, but not relevant contractual relations with Ukraine !!! As one movie hero said: “That's what guys. I won’t give you a machine gun! ”


      Here I disagree, it’s interesting about the engine, but acquaintances who served in the Desna River didn’t speak so critically. But about the contract --- she, the Russian Federation - I could not disrupt, but tried. Relations, Chechnya is the third thing - Pakistan, India - -the same thing, Ukraine at the same time with tanks in Pakistan sold Krazy to India and nothing, no one or did not suit.
      Quote: Vereshagin
      “That's what guys. I won’t give you a machine gun! ”

      The machine gun gave Bulgaria

      if not a secret in what years did you serve?
  • Vereshagin
    Vereshagin April 28 2013 13: 48 New
    +3
    Pan mga04, the author did not turn anything upside down when comparing tank engines upside down. As I understand it, you did not test the motors yourself in the “Pakistani conditions”. It is a fact that to start the 6TD-2 even in the summer it was necessary to start the heater if the air temperature was below 20 degrees, usually in the morning. You bring the coolant temperature to 60 degrees and you can start it. If you use oil injection, in the box there is such smoke after starting - white light is not visible. In addition, the engine pulls oil fog through the VO, which leads to its oiling, deterioration of air purification and, as a result, to dust wear. The fact that the 6TD-2 engine life is lower than that of the B-92C2. Although technologically and in terms of design thought, the 6TD-2 is a cut above. The six already worked in an intense mode, the loss of even 5 liters of coolant was monitored and signaled to the driver. A low coolant level definitely caused engine damage. You can’t fill the cooling system with water, only through a special sulfofilter from spare parts. He has a small resource, periodically it was necessary to regenerate by pouring salt water. If topped up with non-softened water, scale at a wild speed covers the internal cavity of the cooling jacket, which quickly leads to local overheating and to an engine accident. This trouble has been known since the exploitation of the five - in 6TD-2, with its increased critical conditions, it became even more relevant. In summer, the bypass duct was generally plugged, for the motor was constantly overheating on loose and slush - on clay soils and it was not in the desert !!!
    Six - “oiling”, oil waste is greater than on the B-92, and with an average consumption of motor resources, on the machines of the study group, with a daily mileage of about 100 km, after driving lessons we had to add 20 liters of oil.
    In the mountains, "Birch" did not happen to exploit, and drove 64 matches at a mountain range in Orekhovtsy. I will say responsibly, 1000TDF ate 5 liters of diesel fuel per 120 km. At the mountain tankodrome, the obstacle — the maximum ascent — had to be circled — 64 just skidded there, although on 62 it happened to climb steeper slopes. I confirm the lower dynamic characteristics of a two-stroke diesel engine against the “classics” when driving on hilly terrain by personal experience, at some elevations, in contrast to 72-ka, 64-ka was raised only with switching to lower gears. Fire hazard MTO Kharkov production - "The Parable of the Town." The joint of the gas turbine with the exhaust pipe is “dressed” in quilted “pants” made of heat-resistant fabric. The task of this device is to be a thermal barrier to prevent burnout of rubber goods. However, an almost insurmountable oil leak through the gas joint leads to the "pants" getting wet and their subsequent ignition, as a result: burnout of the oil pipe of the right BKP; oil leakage on the bottom; tank stop; fire in the MTO; PPO operation; "Sheer"; "Debriefing"; ogromvody ... I instead of trousers put a home-made screen of tin - I have never failed!
    Replacing the engine on the Birch - from after breakfast until dinner with lunch in the dining room with smoke breaks and without stress, replacing the engine on 72 - from dawn to dusk with meals in the field where “special song” is centering the engine with a guitar in the absence of necessary shims. Note: it is possible, of course, in both cases and faster, but in line with the educational process is not recommended ...
    Conclusion: two-stroke diesel engines of Kharkov production are certainly a design and technological masterpiece. The fact that there is a demand for them outside of Ukraine is another confirmation of this. However, IMHO, two-stroke diesel engines are a “dead end” of tank engine building because of their: high cost (own and operational), “capriciousness” and, say, not outstanding performance indicators.
    1. Alekseev
      Alekseev 4 May 2013 22: 39 New
      0
      I completely agree with my colleague!
      It may reach the patriots that the two-stroke Kharkov diesel engine is a mediocre tank engine for a number of objective reasons.
      And this is not the fault of Kharkov engineers.
      History stretches back to the time of the USSR.
      It just happened. request
  • Vereshagin
    Vereshagin April 28 2013 15: 12 New
    +1
    Choosing between a loading mechanism and an automatic loading device, I will definitely choose MZ. And here's why: 28 shots are undeniably better than 22; the loading speed of the gun with the MOH is higher than in the AZ - which means higher and practical rate of fire TP. There is really one constructive problem associated with the use of longer new generation BOPSs, but I am sure that Kharkiv citizens will cope with this task. Well, and not without bitterness: at the AZ, the pallet is automatically ejected from the tower, which improves its habitability; at MZ, the pallet is transferred to a free tray emitting caustic smoke, and sometimes burning with the remnants of a sleeve. When the burning pan goes down to other shots - Shock !!! I categorically forbade the use of the “Series” mode of the loading mechanism. For, if the conveyor is with combat payload, and on the bottom there are leaks of diesel fuel, oil, hydraulic fluids, you can “fly up”.
  • Vereshagin
    Vereshagin April 28 2013 16: 31 New
    +2
    Dear, Alexander D., I read your posts and understand how you "carries". Well, don’t have to “cock up” like that - a bad sign! Excuse me, which tanks did you personally exploit, which engines did you change? Particularly “smiled” about the night butterfly - T-90 - pearl of the highest category, E !!! I operated B-84 engines similar to those that were installed on the machines of the Indian contract. I will tell you a case: it was necessary to advance from the landfill to the railway station for loading. The loading time is set, the counter is on. In the courtyard, February, minus 17, and on one of the cars the boiler candle burns out. The column is already built, the engines are rumbling, there is no one car. The tank commander comes running, reports - the boiler is dead! We take a candle, fly to repair, the column went. We change the candle, start the boiler, - on the horizon there is a slight smoke of a departed column. The coolant temperature is 15 degrees, - crankshaft cranking with a starter, the pressure with MZN is above 3. We continue to heat! Coolant temperature - 20 degrees, cranking, - pressure is above 3, we warm further! Temperature 30 degrees, pressure with MZN - 2,5, scroll without fuel, launch combined. The temperature drops below 20, the fan switch is at low revs, the blinds are closed, I sit down on the levers, I start moving in first gear, warm up the engine and catch up with the column before turning to the station. I assure you, in such conditions, neither the fifth nor the sixth TD would simply wound up!
    And in hot weather, the engines of the 72s never ever overheated, unlike 64 rock. On one route in the summer in the heat drove 64-ku and 72-ku. At the first coolant - above 100 !!! And 72 matches a maximum of 90. Fact!
    1. Kars
      Kars April 28 2013 16: 37 New
      0
      I wonder what they are doing here.
      1. Kars
        Kars April 28 2013 16: 42 New
        0
        Now actively operating the T-64 Ukraine and Transnistria.
        these are the teachings that are going on now.

        and yet it’s interesting how DT engines behave in Pakistan,
        1. Vereshagin
          Vereshagin April 28 2013 17: 15 New
          0
          On 64-ke running "dead" in its design features. If the caterpillar is weakened, there is a high probability of its dropping during turns. The most disgusting case when it is carried under a rotten winter’s bottom in a pit with liquid mud or carried out along with a fenestrated shelf. The caterpillar can fly off even with a partial collision with a stump or stone.

          I’m sure they’re wildly warming up, but they work, otherwise they wouldn’t buy
          1. Kars
            Kars April 28 2013 17: 20 New
            0


            I myself am not a tanker, but as I wrote, the guys from the gum told. Of all that you have told, there is only about the caterpillar rally.

            about the smoke from the pan, I asked, they say normal, they told how they turned on the supercharger to create excess pressure.

            and here many MOH consider it almost a tragedy.
        2. Alekseev
          Alekseev 4 May 2013 23: 08 New
          0
          Interesting, interesting. But not DT, but TD-6.
          And that's what
          Quote: Kars
          Now actively operating the T-64 Ukraine and Transnistria.
          , it is unlikely!
          Not to fat now.
      2. Vereshagin
        Vereshagin April 28 2013 17: 07 New
        +3
        So in the war tanks and self-propelled guns were heated. They dug a ditch, installed a potbelly stove there, drove a tank or self-propelled gun on top, so that the stove was under the MTO and drowned with wood. The crew immediately rested in the rovik.
        1. Greyfox
          Greyfox April 29 2013 09: 05 New
          0
          Vereshagin, so I’d listen and listen to you! By chance I came back here and saw fresh comments. I would have liked more in the topics discussed, such as you and AlekseevIt is interesting to read what people who really worked with technology write. This is much more interesting than the article itself (and many similar to it). You (practitioners) should cooperate and file your article about service and operating experience. It would be a real exclusive! Think ... Sincerely.
          1. Alekseev
            Alekseev 4 May 2013 23: 15 New
            0
            I decided to look at the same "cases of bygone days."
            But I do not think that our experience will be any exclusive.
            All this is well known to thousands of specialists.
            The secret is only for individual unfortunate patriots who have read propaganda in the media.
            "Ah, it's not difficult to deceive me, I'm glad to be deceived myself."
  • olegdfgfg
    olegdfgfg 8 May 2013 16: 25 New
    0
    mdaa ... Ukrainians will climb up everywhere and begin to bend, you still say that your fighters are better (and do you even have them there) are better tanks, missiles can be better? And also remember how our confectioner came up at YOUR factory t34, so he is now yours too?
  • Sashko07
    Sashko07 31 May 2013 22: 30 New
    0
    Read what the Indians themselves about the T-90 say http://alternathistory.org.ua/kolossalnaya-tankovaya-oshibka-indii laughing
    1. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 1 June 2013 00: 44 New
      0
      Quote: Sashko07
      Read what the Indians themselves about the T-90 say http://alternathistory.org.ua/kolossalnaya-tankovaya-oshibka-indii laughing
      This is spoken by Ukrainian comrades, not Indians.
      In the article, Arjun is extolled and scolded by the T-90, and in fact they reduced the order for Arjun many times and are negotiating additional supplies of the T-90.
      The second one. The article extols Ukrainian tanks compared to the T-90. But in fact: in the period from 2001 to 2010 more than two thousand T-90s were sold, and how many tanks made at their enterprises were sold by Ukraine? 14 years ago, as three hundred tanks were delivered to Pakistan, this was the end of the demand for Ukrainian-made tanks. True, they write about the won tenders, about the contracts concluded .... and only an exhibition copy leaves the country.

      So what will we believe: facts or any scribble?
      1. Akim
        Akim 1 June 2013 07: 21 New
        -1
        Quote: Bad_gr
        This is spoken by Ukrainian comrades, not Indians.

        I do not protect the T-80UD. If you want, consider the T-90 to be the top of perfection. But since you do not believe in this plan Ukrainian military analytical sites (just like I am Russian) read the Indians themselves.
        T-90 mass confusion
        http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/51409-t-90-mass-confusion.html
        There are many topics on the forum about the T-90. There is a video comparing Arjun and T-90. We will leave the first generation. They are waiting for Mark 2.
        1. Bad_gr
          Bad_gr 1 June 2013 09: 37 New
          +1
          Quote: Akim
          If you want, consider the T-90 to be the top of perfection.
          I do not consider him the height of perfection. But this tank is the evolutionary pinnacle of the T-72 line, a tank with very great military practice. Changes were constantly made to the tank: they changed the engine, changed the chassis, changed several towers, changed the gun, replaced the automatic loader, FCS, communications, etc. A tank in which changes are constantly being made to improve its performance cannot be bad. This is not a single product for you, in which something turned out successful, but something is not. And the facts speak for themselves: the T-90 is the best-selling tank of 2 thousandths.

          Quote: Akim
          There are many topics on the forum about the T-90. There is a video comparing Arjun and T-90.
          Colossal funds have been invested in the development of this Arjun, and talking after that that the tank did not work is fraught. They cannot but praise him. But the Indians do it wisely: they reduce the order for the production of Arjuns, and increase the purchase of T-90.
          No matter how much the T-90 is scolded, but, apparently, it is the best of all proposed.
          1. Akim
            Akim 1 June 2013 09: 58 New
            0
            Quote: Bad_gr
            But this tank is the evolutionary pinnacle of the T-72 line

            I asked a small Bati: What is the best atomic bomb or nuclear? Here the argument of tank lovers reminds me of it. He is ineffectual.
            Quote: Bad_gr
            reduce the order for the production of Arjuns, and increase purchases of T-90.

            That's not why they cut and buy T-90s. It's just that the T-90 is the best tank in the region. It matches both Pakistani and Chinese new tanks. Better in some ways, worse in others, but on the whole they are equal. Sense of purchasing a more expensive tank with approximately the same characteristics? Although the Arjun tank brigade is in the desert, where the T-90 does not compete with the T-80UD and Al-Khalids. Therefore, the Mark2 and Mark3 are being developed as a cheaper, but advanced alternative.
        2. svp67
          svp67 16 December 2013 00: 47 New
          0
          Quote: Akim
          read the Indians themselves.

          A lot of weapons and armor and not a word about the engine? From where then infa about bad work?
          1. Akim
            Akim 16 December 2013 04: 13 New
            0
            Quote: svp67
            and not a word about the engine?

            The B-84 engine works reliably, but it loses much in power in the desert and in the mountains.
  • Svyatoslav72
    Svyatoslav72 1 June 2013 10: 34 New
    -1
    The merit of Ukrainian Tank Builders is that they make Tanks for sale a hundred, therefore they are looking for options and improvements in order to survive.
    The trouble, and the curse, of Russian tank builders is that they have a place to fuse their rarities. Its deep modernization T-90 was late by 20 years, when the improved T-72 smalets were also named 90th (the head designer of UVZ mentioned the inconsistency of time and efficiency), while successfully ditching 80 (which the Iranians wanted to buy, but did not buy nothing because they shoved the T-90 and they didn’t like them).
    Lobbyism and the lack of competition does not allow tank builders to develop in the Russian Federation (and not only them), and an amorphous preparation for exhibitions and an inhibitory approach to potential buyers ruins contracts and does not bring full benefits.
    PS "Cadres decide - Everything", but those who promoted "current cadres" obviously wanted to ruin everything.
  • realist
    realist 16 December 2013 00: 25 New
    0
    Quote: gych
    and it’s not surprising that this is a business! And there’s no talk of fraternity (what a fraternal price the Russian Federation extinguished for Ukraine) Ukraine is competing in the sale of weapons for the Russian Federation and here they will truthfully and falsely knock out a place under the sun.

    Why minus you? You are absolutely right, two states: these are two equal trading partners (we do not take into account political and other unions). And prices, as is customary, are determined by DEMAND and SUPPLY. Don't like the price? Walk around and search for cheaper. Well, if they sell the same product, then naturally they are competitors here. Yes, and no one can forbid "uncle the baker" to sell cheaper, (give) a cake to a girl.
    That's all. And ... not any minuses, however, due to the sharp tone and pluses, either not.
  • jagerTLT
    jagerTLT April 16 2015 12: 47 New
    0
    Advertising is advertising !! whoever better presents his product will win in supply competitions elsewhere)) but the t90 has the most important +. it is purchased and put into service with the Russian Federation and the Bastion is only sold for a hill)
  • family tree
    family tree 12 October 2016 09: 35 New
    0
    Eva. I thought it was over already. and here again the writing.
    Well, the Junkers suitcase has no prospect, all of this two-stroke is already squeezed. And the six little oporniks are impressive, yeah, tanks ride on asphalt, what There, damn reliance on the harp needed! Either a lot of small ones, or five or six big ones. And six small ones, this one according to the reason, the motorist, cho belay