The Ukrainian Armed Forces have begun using FZ123 cluster munition missiles to destroy Geranium drones.

French concern Thales has begun deliveries of new 70-mm missiles FZ123 laser-guided missile with high-explosive warheads.

It is an inexpensive and effective means of combating the growing threat from drones Shahed ["Geranium"]

- noted in the Western press.

The missile's warhead is cluster-type and consists of thousands of steel balls that disperse in all directions when a proximity fuse detonates near the target. According to the developer, the detonation creates a deadly cloud approximately 25 meters in diameter, damaging propellers, fins, and sensors. dronesThe missile's range is approximately 3000 m with proper configuration and targeting.

L3Harris Vampire launcher for land platforms

Guidance is provided by the operator using a laser beam. If communication is lost, the missile will fly toward the designated point for several seconds and then switch to ballistic mode, which is designed to increase the likelihood of a hit.

The Ukrainian Armed Forces use 70mm guided munitions from US-supplied L3 Harris Vampire launchers, which carry four guided missiles and an electro-optical/infrared guidance system. The Ukrainian military has also adapted Mi-8 helicopters to carry 70mm rocket pods.

Suspended container for 70-mm rockets

Thales is developing its own prototype of a compact, five-rail ground-based launcher, while simultaneously ramping up production of 70mm rockets at its Belgian facilities: approximately 3500 missiles are expected to be produced this year, and up to 10,000 by 2026. And that's not counting the tens of thousands of unguided 70mm munitions.

Comments

[Murmur 55]

Time will tell if this is a real antidote or just another fairy tale from the West.

[Peter1First]

It's obviously real—it's manufactured by a well-known company. The only question is the cost of this "wonder weapon"—won't it be more expensive than the Geranium? Besides, Geraniums currently fly high and dive toward their targets at a steep angle—their 3-kilometer range is questionable... unless these missiles are used to cover the target. But on a helicopter, this missile could indeed be used as air defense against Geraniums!

[Murmur 55]

Peter1First I won't argue, it's just that even reputable and quite professional companies have their share of failures and setbacks.

[TermNachTer]

That's exactly it - what's the price of a woodworm waffle? If it's three times the price of a geranium, it's simply worthless.

[Viktor Sergeev]

If the budget embezzlement is considered realistic, then yes, it's a significant embezzlement. The use of this miracle over a city would be especially cool; shrapnel is awesome, there will be a ton of corpses.

[Dedok]

The only question is about the cost of this "wonder weapon" - won't it be more expensive than the same Geranium?

The question is certainly correct, but how many times is the GDP of NATO countries greater than Russia's GDP?
This is the ratio that should be here too...
and it should be used as a starting point when conducting economic analysis...

[Netl]

Quote: Murmur 55

this is a real antidote

Its characteristics alone make it clear that this is a cheap missile with a short range and the most primitive method of guidance – laser guidance.

This greatly limits its use from the ground. However, from airborne launch vehicles, it's a perfectly acceptable option. However, this immediately suggests a counterattack: deploying high-velocity missiles on some Geraniums.
This has been written about for a long time, but if the enemy begins to use such missiles en masse from helicopters and other vehicles, then the thunder has already struck.

[Peter1First]

This missile isn't exactly cheap—if it's a proximity fuse, then it should also have a lidar, and there's also a flight program for when the beam is lost...

[Netl]

Quote from: Peter1First

There must be a lidar, and there is also a flight program

What lidar? At most, they added a simple laser rangefinder. But most likely, the main laser sensor determines the approximate distance.

And the "flight program" is simply a lock on the rudders in the event of loss of beam.

[rocket757]

It's not a wonder weapon... laser guidance is a serious limitation for such systems.

[Murmur 55]

rocket757, but it is presented as a panacea for our UAVs.

[Murmur 55]

Again, the article doesn't make it clear what the cost per UAV is: one-to-one or two-to-one? Even if it's one-to-one, given the current number of Geranium launches in Ukraine, how long will those 10 last?

[Poplar]

Even if one to one with the current number of Geranium launches in Ukraine, how long will these 10 thousand last?

The math is simple: if you average 500 geraniums and gerberas per day, that's enough for three weeks. And if you don't have a one-to-one ratio, you can get it done in a week. And if you have even more geraniums and gerberas, you can even do "five years in three days."

[OSE4Kinsura]

A shotgun in the rocket! There's a firing range! I'll probably have to install a counter shotgun! And so on, forever! Until everyone gets tired of the dead horse and the money stops working! It's business as usual, until the last stoner!

[Vrotkompot]

What does a shotgun have to do with it? Many air defense missiles operate on the same principle, they're just larger. Also, as far as I know, Gerani missiles can fly above 3000 meters (4-9 meters depending on the modification). Therefore, these wonder weapons will have to be used in the final stages of their approach, often in residential areas, showering everyone around them with metal balls.

[Poplar]

pouring metal balls at everyone around

It all depends on the caliber of the pellets. The largest pellets have a maximum effective range of 60 meters, at which point the pellet travels approximately 200 m/s. A pellet would reach the same speed if dropped from a height of approximately 2 km. While not fatal, it's likely unpleasant. The article doesn't entirely clarify the effective range of the proximity fuse, but based on an area of ​​25 square meters, the radius of the destructive cloud is no more than 3 meters. Furthermore, the dispersion speed of these pellets is unknown. Overall, it's impossible to assess the effectiveness of these missiles based on the data provided.

[Dirty Liar]

I imagine how these thousands of steel balls will scatter on the ground if the missile misses.

[AMG]

The 9M38M1 contains approximately 8000 fragmentation elements in its warhead, of which every fourth is butterfly-shaped. This is the Buk missile system. All anti-aircraft missiles contain ready-made fragmentation elements.

[al3x]

Since when did diameter start to be measured in square meters?

[kulemin0025gmail.com]

And really 🧐 It needs to be denoted in square meters 😏

[novel66]

What if the rocket isn't even a cluster munition?

[Comrade Beria]

Just yesterday there was a similar topic.

https://topwar.ru/271992-vsu-stali-primenjat-protiv-rossijskih-dronov-podvesnye-kontejnery-s-aviaraketami.html

So let's play big.
On the Tomahawks.

The Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine did not have enough supporters to nominate Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize.

Strong move by xoxl.

Donnie is a very touchy person, like most people of advanced age (although I don’t know when it comes, I’ll be 73 soon, but it doesn’t seem to have come yet ).

At best, he will palm off these tomahawks without any further accompaniment, in hudshem - read the first two letters and guess the third

The second option is more likely.

The transfer of Tomahawks to Ukraine under the PURL program (purchases at the expense of NATO countries) is impossible due to a lack of funds in it.

[rocket757]

laser-guided and

critical limitation... clouds, dust, fog and the rocket becomes useless.

[Alex_12]

and then switches to ballistic mode, which is designed to increase the likelihood of hitting

I can't stop laughing. How did they stop the TT booster? A ballistic trajectory, by definition, implies inertial movement. Maneuvering is possible. But here, it's like there's no control. What are they boosting?

[NakedMan]

I'm also having trouble understanding this. Maybe it means the missile doesn't have a self-destruct feature, and it could still hit someone if it loses control. :)

[gridasov]

Weapons supplied to the military are always subject to analysis not only of the weapon itself, but also of the mindset of its developers and the scope of their development prospects. Therefore, new weapons are a very useful source of information and analysis.

[23ronin]

Something similar was shown on TV today, like a round for an RPG-7 that some DIYers from one of our air defense brigades built. I even noticed copper-plated balls were present in the ammunition. The idea is likely viable, but the effectiveness/cost issue is still questionable. And the French are likely just testing it, as the 404 is a pretty good testing ground. The French product is more of an air defense target, while we need something mobile. There are also some other proposals based on the DIYers' design; it's a comprehensive one involving industrial products, but that's too open a platform.

[glock-17]

I wonder if it can also detect decoys made of wood and foam? We could overload the air defense with them, and then their value would be questionable.

[Mazunga]

good stray, what luck do the Khinzirs get from half the world to them?

[23ronin]

I'll add that perhaps our oil tycoons would purchase French products for their factories in exchange for a report on their use. That would be very interesting analysis from both sides. And that's worth a lot.

[Alf]

Quote: 23ronin

Perhaps our oil tycoons would have purchased French products for their factories,

Why would they care? When a plant is damaged, gasoline production goes up in price, and the insurance company pays for the damage. And they couldn't care less that the country is running out of gasoline. It's pure chocolate everywhere...

[23ronin]

Good question, I think the Kremlin boss should sort this out.

[Alf]

Quote: 23ronin

Perhaps the Kremlin's top official should sort this out.

[Etoya]

The main question is the range and cost.

[Architect]

How will it be guided by a laser beam if Geranium 3 flies at night and its ceiling is up to 9000 m?
At night you can't even see 1000 meters up.

[Vitaly Koisin]

"About 25 square meters in diameter"... yeah... the author is thinking in terms of some very alternative geometry ;-)

[Panadol]

Civilian casualties will rise again. They beat and beat the Patriot. They didn't finish him off. Now they'll start shelling houses with cluster munitions.
Oh, these super weapon seekers...

[Sergey3]

That's precisely why we need to destroy not objects or transport, but enemy manpower first. Manpower is finite, while equipment is infinite. You watch videos on Telegram channels, and they're all the same: drones are wasted on unarmed, empty vehicles, while enemy soldiers running alongside are ignored. Car factories churn out cars at a rate of one every few minutes, but a soldier needs to be fed and trained for 20 years before he becomes one.

[Viktor fm]

Shoot sparrows with a laser cannon.

[Nord11]

And our strategists are rushing to strike at Ukrainian bridges, apparently so that the Ukrainian Armed Forces can be supplied regularly.

[rosomaha]

When you translate articles, at least do some editing... otherwise everything's all jumbled up... horses, people. I'm losing my mind trying to understand what's written here... I had to search... 30 minutes and the situation woke up. The company Thales, in its Belgian branch (formerly the Belgian company FZ) began a year ago producing a guided missile based on the 70mm FZ unguided rocket... a kind of analogue of the American APKWS-2. The missile is designated FZ275LGR. It is equipped with an FZ319 high-explosive warhead with a contact fuse, designed to destroy ground targets. Seeing the results of APKWS missiles in combat with UAVs, the company developed a new anti-drone warhead FZ123, a high-explosive, but with an enhanced fragmentation effect (6500 steel balls) and a non-contact fuse. The explosive weight is 900 grams, the lethal radius is up to 12,5 m. It was tested with a laser guidance module in both air-to-air and anti-aircraft versions. In the latter case, the range was 3 km and the altitude 2500 m. The missile is part of the expanding arsenal of counter-drone weapons in the Ukrainian campaign.

[Viktor Sergeev]

And then there will be tales about how the Russian Armed Forces showered Ukrainian cities with steel balls.

[Flashpoint]

Install a laser detector on Geranium and shoot smoke/aerosol bombs?
But this is in any case with the mass use of FZ123, and again, the design becomes more complex and the payload is reduced.

[Green tea]

It would be naive to expect that they won't find an effective (read: cheap) countermeasure against drones.