BEC or normal ships?

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BEC or normal ships?

Lately, many experts and "experts" have been talking about unmanned ships, as vessels that will soon replace regular ships on combat duty. The topic is, in fact, interesting and worth exploring, especially since some hasty navigators have already condemned regular ships.

"The US has calculated how many BEKs are needed to replace one destroyer."

A Russian Telegram channel came out with this headline. In reality, of course, nothing was being calculated in the US; according to American specialized media and channels, the problems and approaches to solving them are entirely different there.



Our “experts,” of course, counted from the heart and practically condemned the American surface vessel fleetHowever, reality is somewhat different from what is written, and it makes sense to take a sober approach to what is happening.

Of course, just ten years ago we spoke of UAVs in the air with a degree of disdain, since they were only good for reconnaissance. But the events in Ukraine have dramatically changed the entire worldview on every continent. And UAV became not only a provider of information, but also a combat aircraft, more effective than more expensive and technologically advanced types of weapons.


At sea, things are a bit more conservative. Yes, unmanned boats were called "torpedoes for the poor" because they began to replace that very expensive type of weapon. The author once made such comparisons, and yes, a kamikaze unmanned boat was more advantageous than a torpedo because it didn't require such a specialized and expensive carrier, a trained crew, or a maintenance base, and such a boat was capable of striking below the waterline.


Experience has confirmed that a surface-to-surface torpedo is a very unpleasant phenomenon. Its strength is that the vessel can be launched discreetly from the shore. Enemy radars will have a very difficult time detecting this small nuisance, due to its large amount of plastic and very low altitude. The range of a surface torpedo can be much greater than that of a submerged one, but the point isn't to "fire and forget," like a self-guided torpedo, but to "fire and kill" with the help of a team of operators.

Yes, you can fight BEKs with machine guns and complexes. EW, and, unlike torpedoes, they're effective in combat. Unfortunately, only counter-torpedoes are effective against torpedoes, and they're just as valuable as torpedoes because they're essentially the same thing. A BEK can be destroyed in many ways: by fire. weapon from machine guns to aircraft cannons, drones-kamikaze, homing missiles and projectiles, guided like the same ATGMs, and electronic warfare systems cannot be discounted, because no one will cancel the satellite guidance channel.

There's a cost issue, of course. A torpedo, with its rather complex guidance systems, is quite expensive, and for the price of a single torpedo (the Russian "miracle" USET-80 cost the budget 360 rubles apiece, or 30 million in 2008 prices), you could build more than one unmanned combat boat. A kamikaze boat is cheaper than a torpedo, but it's also much easier to neutralize.


We seem to have figured it out. But this question goes a bit further than the BEC. It concerns larger ships and more complex tasks.

While the author was deep in thought and analyzing what others had written, a simply incomparable article was published by one of the Russian experts (though in the field Defense) regarding the future of large ships. Its author went straight to the trump card, condemning the regular fleet with the statement that
"For naval victories, we need unmanned boats, submarines, and container ships."
.

The argument: a submarine is an unpredictable weapon for the enemy, but it is complex and expensive, while a container ship filled with missiles is cheap and effective. A submarine is simply beautiful; several of these boats can destroy a corvette that costs hundreds of times more.


Regarding submarines, I completely agree. Moreover, I've always advocated for our Navy to operate a powerful submarine fleet, while minimizing surface parade parades.

However, no matter how hard you look, you won't find any criticism of the naval workhorses—destroyers, corvettes, and frigates—on our pages. These classes of ships are still in high demand and aren't going anywhere, no matter how much some might wish them to be.

So, everything is clear with the submarines, we’ll leave the container ships with missiles for dessert, let’s talk about the BECs.

Yes, a UAV costs a lot more than a UAV, but its targets aren't cheap either. Frigates cost hundreds of millions of dollars, destroyers cost billions, aircraft carriers... well, I think you get the idea. An UAV is larger than any UAV and carries a larger explosive payload over a greater distance. And a few boats are more than enough to destroy a ship weighing between 5 and 10,000 tons.

An example is the attack on the USS Cole in October 2000. This was long before the BEC became a significant weapon.


A boat packed with C4, manned by two suicide bombers, exploded alongside the Arleigh Burke-class destroyer. The Americans were incredibly lucky that the boat's crew were simply unaware of the ship's design, otherwise they would have hit the stern, where two-thirds (64) of the missile launchers are located. While it was a good outcome, they struggled for survivability for three days, as the explosion tore a 12 x 18-meter hole, and the destroyer had to be transported across the ocean in a floating dock for repairs. And what would have happened if the missiles had detonated?



This is a good example: modern unmanned aerial vehicles can be armed with anything from single-use explosive charges to surface-to-air missiles or anti-ship missiles. And cases of successful use have already been reported, unfortunately, by our side.

There's already some speculation on our side that a cheap, and therefore numerous, fleet of BECs will be able to paralyze conventional ships, disrupt maritime trade, inflict damage, and even successfully repel attacks thanks to their high speed, small size, and available weapons. However, the only drawback of BECs is considered to be their short range.

Overall, a lot of nonsense was written. They recalled torpedo and missile boats, which, although small and effective, were unable to displace larger ships because:
- were crew-owned;
- had decent dimensions but weak air defense;
- did not have a huge numerical advantage over normal ships.

It's all debatable. As of June 22, 1941, the Soviet Navy had three battleships, seven light cruisers, 59 destroyers, and 269 torpedo boats. If that's not an advantage, I don't know what is. But it had no effect on the fleet's overall effectiveness.

I don't know what to say about the fact that torpedo boats had weak air defense. Yes, that's true. But unmanned combat vessels also have it... occasionally, and nothing more.

As for the crew... This is a completely different story.

Unlike those experts, I see the strengths and weaknesses of BECs, if you don’t mind, somewhat differently.

But first I would like to give my opinion historical example.

December 26, 1943. The Battle of the North Cape. Do you remember how it all began? With bad weather, which forced the German destroyer escorts back to port. The German ships couldn't operate in those conditions, so a decision was made (rather idiotic) to raid the convoy with the battleship Scharnhorst alone.


You all know how it all ended: the Scharnhorst was sunk by a British squadron. Could the outcome have been different if the battleship had had assistants? In theory, yes. The destroyers could have at least launched torpedoes to distract the enemy and lay a smokescreen. As it was, the British made a show of it, with the cruisers' 203mm shells playing a major role, knocking out the German ship's radar and the British destroyers' torpedoes (more than 50).

What's this example about? It's about the BEK's main drawback being its small size. Currently, all such kamikaze boats are capable of operating in sea state 3 or less. Better yet, less.

Yes, a LEF that has entered the harbor and is darting around at high speed is a difficult target, but as experience shows, you still have to reach the harbor. Yes, motherships can help with this, but eliminating such ships is not the most difficult task for normal ships. aviation.

So, what do we have? We have the following disadvantages of the BEC:
- short range;
- poor seaworthiness;
- lack of air defense;
- limited area of ​​application, mainly coastal zone;
- the inability to quickly respond to the situation due to the lack of a crew;
- impossibility of fighting for survivability;
- a large arsenal of suppressive means;
- the inability to act independently; target designation by ships or other guidance means is required.

In the merits
- low cost and the ability to build in large quantities;
- high speed on flat water;
- the possibility of flexible transformation in terms of armament.

Unlike UAVs, unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) don't yet appear to be weapons capable of dominating the battlefield. While UAVs are somewhat dependent on weather conditions, they perform poorly in rain and fog. But UAVs simply can't navigate in even moderately rough seas, which severely limits their use. Therefore, their total effectiveness shouldn't be relied upon.

Moreover, the unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) is simply incapable of operating independently, even if artificial intelligence were installed in its control unit. It still requires external targeting, as it's important to understand that it's simply impossible to equip a modern UAV with a full-fledged radar, and even if it were, it would be of no use: the ship's size is too small, its elevation is low, and its range is correspondingly limited. Increasing the mast immediately increases the ship's visibility, and we won't even mention the additional size required, as that would create another vicious circle.

The vicious circle continues. Someone has to guide the UAV to the target, and it's important to consider that distances at sea are somewhat different than on land. On land, 5-15 km is a normal range for a UAV, but at sea, it's practically point-blank range. This means you have to see and sail further. This is comparable to a conventional anti-ship missile, and for that, 100-160 km is a normal combat range.

So, the unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) needs tracking and targeting. Yes, we can use a satellite constellation (if available), we can deploy an AWACS aircraft in the area, or we can use radars from regular ships. It depends on what's available.

This means that aircraft, UAVs, or ships are simply required in the area of ​​operation. This is if we're talking about a real naval battle, not just attempts to target enemy ships in the coastal zone or docked in harbors. This is what the supposedly highly successful Ukrainian Armed Forces are demonstrating. Yes, they achieved some success, initially. Then things got worse, and there seems to be no more success. As expected, we've learned to repel UAV attacks.


An AWACS aircraft must be protected. A strategic reconnaissance drone, too. A ship can also be attacked by a bomb, missile, torpedo, or unmanned aerial vehicle.

And on this optimistic note, the image of the BEK as an independent and effective weapon system somehow disappears. And this is right, this is normal.

There are several reasons why it is not worth relying on the experience of the SVO.
Firstly, the Ukrainian Armed Forces (and their followers in the Gulf of Aden) use unmanned aerial vehicles (BAVs) in a blatant guerrilla war, unable to provide adequate cover. They lack adequate ships or aircraft, at least for operations in the Black Sea. However, it should be noted that in the coastal zone, using target designation from the shore via Starlink terminals, they were somewhat effective. This was partly because some of them reached their targets and caused damage, but the ratio of their numbers to those destroyed was not even 1 to 10.

Secondly, the Russian Navy has already taken numerous steps to ensure the success of Ukrainian BECs. These steps weren't taken yesterday, but we'll discuss them below.

Now let's just try to imagine a ship-destroying operation, not in the coastal zone, but at sea. If some believe that a BEF is the key to victory, then we have to imagine it. You know, like a tactical game, "blue" versus "green."

Let's take the same long-suffering Black Sea. A group of frigate-class ships is advancing from the Bosphorus toward Sevastopol with some nefarious intentions. Could unmanned combat aircraft be used against them? Yes, they could. In a 200-kilometer zone, especially if the unmanned combat aircraft's approach and the missiles from the Bal missile systems are synchronized, it could be truly remarkable. A host of conditions must be met: if the sea level and wind permit, if the enemy ships don't deploy countermeasures (and they certainly will), if the ships don't scramble helicopters and fire on the unmanned combat aircraft as they approach, and so on. And these "and so on" factors are far more prevalent for unmanned combat aircraft than for anti-ship missiles.

As for offensive operations outside the coastal "umbrella," things are downright bleak. Naturally, transport would be needed to deliver the boats to the launch range, closer to the enemy. 250 kilometers isn't a very long distance; a missile covers it in 15 minutes. At best, the unmanned combat vessel would be sloshing around in the waves for 5-6 hours, which could put such an operation into question, not to mention the possibility that the ships being attacked could change course and simply escape the unmanned combat vessel's range.

It's much easier to deploy a couple of submarines to sea, whose torpedoes will in any case make those on the ships think twice.

Unmanned boats are a highly effective weapon against enemy ships at extremely close ranges to shore. And they are no substitute for proper warships, especially submarines.


A normal combat ship will perform combat missions such as searching for and destroying the enemy in weather conditions where using unmanned aerial vehicles would be impractical. Just like the battleship and destroyers at the Battle of the North Cape.

A container ship loaded with missiles is tempting, but even more vulnerable in the Black or Baltic Seas. Sure, somewhere in the Persian Gulf or the Gulf of Aden, such a ship offers excellent camouflage, but in the waters of small inland seas, it's a highly visible and, most importantly, vulnerable target.


There have already been suggestions in the press that such vessels should be ordered from Asia. Overall, the idea of ​​such a surprise ship appearing off enemy shores is not a bad one. A cargo ship dropping its mask and firing off a number of cruise missiles is quite impressive, especially if there are a lot of missiles. However, the speed and overall vulnerability of such vessels raise certain concerns.

A container ship with missiles is an interesting move; the containers could even be fitted with anti-aircraft missile systems, giving the ship a fighting chance against cruise missiles and aircraft. After all, who's to say nothing could hit such a ship? Indeed, such a container ship is essentially a one-time use; from now on, all such ships will be subject to increased scrutiny. Especially those suspected of belonging to a particular country's navy, which is generally easy to do these days. Just like with the tankers of the "shadow fleet." But oil is oil, and missiles are missiles.

Okay, we've solved the air defense issue. But there are still submarines. A missile-carrying bulk carrier is completely defenseless against them. And it wouldn't be difficult for a submarine to neutralize such a ship. Of course, it's very easy to install hydroacoustic equipment in a bulk carrier's holds, that's undeniable.

A cargo ship is also an adversary for a missile carrier. Imagine such a ship leaving Novorossiysk and heading toward Sevastopol, from where it could launch a missile strike on the port of Odessa, for example. How quickly would it be detected and kamikaze boats dispatched from that direction? Yes, a bulk carrier has a large deck capable of accommodating a helicopter, maybe even two. A helicopter is a very unpleasant sight for a cargo ship, capable of quickly and inexpensively organizing a fireworks display on the water.

Stop.

Cruise missiles, hydroacoustic equipment, anti-submarine torpedoes, anti-aircraft missiles, rapid-fire artillery From killer boats, long-range radars—and don't you, dear readers, think this has been around before? And it's called a "frigate"?


For some reason, they had to stuff a frigate's payload into the hull of a clumsy, slow cargo ship for camouflage. It's a lousy idea. It might work, of course, but that would be a serious problem for a fourth- or fifth-world country. Where there's decent intelligence, they'll spot it and neutralize it.

Okay, a dry cargo ship used as a TPM, or transport and launch vehicle, in coastal parlance. That is, the missiles are in launch containers, while the guidance systems and control center are located elsewhere. That's an option, but then a proper ship would still need to be stationed nearby to protect the missile carrier from any problems.
The same applies to those “BEC swarms” that some of us are openly raving about.

Swarm is effective in the air when it comes to small, maneuverable and relatively fast units.


But the six-meter Magura, cruising at 40 km/h, is a different story. A squadron of such boats would be perfectly visible from quite a distance, unless they were creeping along at such a speed that they left no wake.


The unmanned boat has proven its effectiveness as a stealthy means of destroying ships, primarily at night, when detection is somewhat difficult. However, it can still be called a "beggar's torpedo," as it is much easier to destroy an unmanned boat than a torpedo or anti-ship missile. The boat's maximum speed of 60-70 km/h, compared to 800-1000 km/h for a cruise missile, is a significant difference.

The unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) is a very good complement to existing naval weapons, but it will in no way replace conventional ships. At least not for the next 10-15 years.

Another question: why did some experts suddenly start to consider the BEK a very effective weapon? It's an interesting question, and I think there's a very sensible answer to it. But that will be a separate article, as it's expected to be quite lengthy.

I read a very unique analysis and comparison of the Black Sea Fleet's actions in 1941-42 and 2022-2024, written by an author in our segment of the internet. Yes, there are many similarities, but...

Anyway, until the next article, we'll continue there.
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  1. + 10
    30 September 2025 04: 17
    From personal experience, there are no admirals without personnel. soldier
    1. +6
      30 September 2025 04: 35
      What about the outskirts? There is no navy, but there are admirals... feel
      1. +5
        30 September 2025 04: 56
        The BEK is a very good addition to existing naval weapons, but it can in no way replace conventional ships.

        An addition that can be quite effective in certain cases.
        1. +9
          30 September 2025 07: 17
          Just ten years ago, we even spoke of UAVs in the air with a bit of disdain, since they were only good for reconnaissance

          Author, since 2005, all knowledgeable people on specialized forums have been ringing the alarm about the UAV threat and the principles of future conflicts involving them. This even reached the highest levels. However, the same comment was always heard: "We don't need your children's aircraft modeling club." They've been slaughtered for that. Now, about unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). Everything is happening in stages: first, UAVs with modest capabilities, then UAVs interacting with ships, and then most ships will be unmanned. Progress is inexorable, and there's no need to cling to a bygone era. That leads to serious problems.
          1. +3
            30 September 2025 08: 45
            Quote: Civil
            Just ten years ago, we even spoke of UAVs in the air with a bit of disdain, since they were only good for reconnaissance

            Author, since 2005, all knowledgeable people on specialized forums have been ringing the alarm about the UAV threat and the principles of future conflicts involving them. This even reached the highest levels. However, the same comment was always heard: "We don't need your children's aircraft modeling club." They've been slaughtered for that. Now, about unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). Everything is happening in stages: first, UAVs with modest capabilities, then UAVs interacting with ships, and then most ships will be unmanned. Progress is inexorable, and there's no need to cling to a bygone era. That leads to serious problems.

            Totally agree with you. Yes
            Roman pulls an owl onto a globe.
            BECs and UAVs have only just begun their bloody journey, just like AI, and already they have achieved such a resounding success.
            The author paints a mythical vacuum war. Meanwhile, war is divided into pre-war periods, limited wars, full-scale wars, and global wars. At all these stages, despite their infancy and crude home-made construction, modern back-up aircraft can already find their niche. And then, more. Back-up aircraft are already being armed with drones, air defense missiles, and machine guns. They can also be armed with mines, torpedoes, anti-ship missiles, and so on.
            As for the Black and Baltic Seas, they could be stuffed with backwaters like a tin can of sprats, which in the pre-war period would allow for complete control of the waters of these seas, including reconnaissance and target designation.
            You can also make the backings semi-submersible and underwater. The main thing is that the self-propelled measuring devices don't get in the way.
            1. +3
              30 September 2025 10: 24
              Quote: Bearded
              It is also possible to make the backs semi-submersible and underwater

              Semi-submersibles are good for stealth, but speed... and the detection radius of the surface to surface... "will be too small!"
              Underwater drones? They have slightly different names: torpedoes and AUVs—autonomous unmanned underwater vehicles. The largest of these is our 3M22 Poseidon... But it's not related to the BYAKS: it's classified as a naval underwater weapon.
              And regarding the "self-deadening mortals".
              Believe me, admirals aren't born. They are made by lieutenants who have endured the trials of the sea, the arduous service of submarines or naval vessels along the perimeter of our great Motherland, who have ingested countless pounds of bitter sea salt, who have been separated from their families and other blessings of civilization for months... Therefore, there's no point in insulting deserving men who have achieved high military ranks.
              If you don't agree with this, I invite you to puke on the deck of a ship in a force 9 storm... Maybe then you'll understand something and change your attitude towards the SEA PEOPLE. am
              1. +2
                30 September 2025 10: 52
                Quote: BoA KAA
                Semi-submersibles are good for stealth.
                Can you explain to a layman who knows little about naval affairs why ship detection systems don't see (or don't see well?) surface-based BEKs, but at the same time they see torpedoes? As far as I remember, by the end of the First World War, sonarsThat have seen submarines and torpedoes on their screens. What is it about the BEK that makes it invisible to radar and sonar? Thank...
                1. +2
                  30 September 2025 11: 00
                  Quote: Luminman
                  What is it about the BEK that makes it invisible to radar and sonar?

                  Radars don't see them because of the small ERP and the material that transmits (rather than reflects) the electromagnetic radiation of the probing beam. OLS does see them, but sometimes malfunctions due to rough seas.
                  The sonar can hear, but the distances are short, since the surface propagation of the sonar signal quickly fades.
                  The most effective means of detecting BEKs is visually, using a helicopter: the "bad guy" leaves a noticeable wake. But patrols must be tens of kilometers from the naval base. To ensure time to issue a warning, an alarm must be sounded at the control centers (at least for the DS).
                  Something like that. There's probably something else, but I don't know. Yes
                  1. +2
                    30 September 2025 11: 08
                    Boa kaaI still don't understand—both the torpedo and the BEK are making noise from the propellers, which is perfectly detectable by sonar in any sea state. Besides, not all of them have anti-radar coating; it's simply impossible to do that. Plus, probably, the IR signature...
                    Quote: BoA KAA
                    The most effective means of detecting BECs is visually, by helicopter.
                    How can it be detected at night? Or in low cloud cover?
                    1. +1
                      30 September 2025 11: 17
                      Quote: Luminman
                      Both the torpedo and the BEK are making noise from the propellers.

                      The sea has a certain type of "hydrology." A torpedo isn't always audible either. Detection range depends on how waves propagate in the water. If you hear it at close range, there's no time to do anything.
                      How can it be detected at night? Or in low cloud cover?

                      An infrared station, a thermal imager. Or a wake radar. Seawater is an electrolyte. The difference can sometimes be visible even on a navigation radar or in the centimeter range. "Okno" is based on a similar principle.
                      Clouds only cm range radar and sonar with visual observation.
                      1. -2
                        30 September 2025 11: 34
                        Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
                        The "Window" is based on a similar principle.

                        What "Window" is this?
                        Isn't it the same "Window" where you wasted a ton of money and still haven't seen any results? Or is this some other "Window" you're looking at?
                      2. +2
                        1 October 2025 15: 56
                        Quote: Bez 310
                        What "Window" is this?

                        Yes, the same one where the AMI, with their R8 Poseidon, practically infallibly locates our submarines while submerged. Now the whales have taken up this topic. And recently they even made a sensational claim that the radar complex, using AI, can pinpoint the location of a submerged submarine with 99% accuracy... They're probably lying, as usual. But it remains a memory.
                      3. +1
                        1 October 2025 16: 04
                        Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
                        P8 Poseidon is almost infallibly found by our submarines

                        I see, you mean imported windows...
                        Quote: Boa constrictor KAA
                        The radar, using AI, determines the location of a submerged submarine with 99% probability...

                        Yeah, yeah, I read it.
                    2. 0
                      1 October 2025 17: 19
                      The wake "glows" beautifully at night, even from a submarine, and is clearly visible from above, even from satellites.
                      We won't talk about other technologies; a torpedo can be launched in the wake of a ship a few hours after it passes... in theory. winked But the ship can be identified unambiguously, in particular by the temperature difference.
                  2. -2
                    30 September 2025 11: 12
                    But what about the BEKs that were sent to sink the Project 22160 submarines... and were ultimately reliably detected by radars from civilian ships 3-4 miles away?
                    1. 0
                      30 September 2025 11: 22
                      Apparently, the radar frequency was different, or the angle of the BEC was different (that's why it was reflecting), and the antenna height also affects detection. I can't say for sure.
                    2. +2
                      30 September 2025 14: 55
                      That's exactly what came to mind: even low-power radars on small civilian yachts can easily "see" reefs, fishing boats, and even buoys (without corner reflectors) at a distance of several miles. Are military radars in the centimeter and millimeter ranges really incapable of this?
                  3. 0
                    1 October 2025 19: 10
                    In the Russian case, the radar in the port is turned off, the OLS is usually absent, and the GAS is impossible to find in daylight.
                2. +2
                  30 September 2025 23: 46
                  Quote: Luminman
                  What's so special about the BEK that it becomes invisible to radar and sonar? Thank you...

                  Salaries for acoustic engineers in Russia have fluctuated since 1992. My wife's friend spent her entire career working in the military-industrial complex in a similar position. Her daughter, having witnessed her mother's fate, dreams of a career in the stables of a new Russian. Cleaning horse manure is considered more prestigious than designing sonars for detecting underwater vehicles and mines.
              2. +2
                30 September 2025 12: 25
                "I invite you to puke on the deck of a ship in a force 9 storm."

                I partly agree with you, but nausea is a physiological feature of the vestibular system; in my opinion, physiology should not be confused with the development of the fleet.
                1. 2al
                  +1
                  1 October 2025 08: 57
                  For the BEC operator, nausea is more common during pregnancy and not during rough seas.
                2. +2
                  1 October 2025 15: 23
                  Quote: Sergei Fonov
                  Physiology should not be confused with the development of the fleet.

                  Not at all! A storm also affects combat effectiveness. Almost all missile ships are limited to sea state 5, or a heel angle of 15°, and according to the differential, it seems to be 5°. So, only a submarine, diving to a depth greater than the wavelength, can avoid the turbulence.
                  But what an indelible feeling it is to watch the rolling motion of a submarine that has surfaced in an emergency, when the submarine's pilot, tied to the lifeboat's rails, scoops up seawater with his palm... I haven't seen it myself, but veterans have shown photos of the submarine in the Barents Sea, I think. Yes
                  So, without trying, you won't know. And without experiencing, how can you adequately judge those who go to sea?
                  1. 0
                    1 October 2025 18: 47
                    I don't argue that storms at sea are difficult, but ships are designed and deployed for combat without regard for pitching and rolling; in real combat, there are no such considerations. But the turbulence of a surface ship in a storm is like navigating swampy terrain for a tanker, albeit with a different degree of difficulty. Ultimately, however, naval development isn't determined by physiologists, taking into account the adaptation of personnel to operating at the limits of their capabilities. That's the responsibility of other people, who, of course, also heed the advice of doctors.
              3. +1
                6 October 2025 00: 28
                Five points Alexander, I fully support you.
                1. 0
                  6 October 2025 09: 40
                  Quote from Barracuda 148
                  Five points Alexander, I fully support you.

                  Experience can't be wasted. And thanks for the support. drinks
            2. 0
              6 October 2025 18: 23
              Quote: Bearded
              Backups are already being armed with drones, air defense missiles, and machine guns. They can also be armed with mines, torpedoes, anti-ship missiles, and so on.

              I'm not a fan of Roman, but he wrote about this... it's possible, everything can be done, mounted, and loaded, but then the very principle of stealth is lost. This can't be done without increasing the BEK's dimensions, and increasing the dimensions means losing its stealth.
          2. 2al
            -1
            30 September 2025 09: 44
            I'll add that a ground effect vehicle (PEV) that takes off from water already exists, and the Chinese have successfully experimented with amphibious UAVs—underwater, surface, and airborne. Development is progressing so rapidly that we can confidently predict that strike UAVs will outperform anti-ship missiles in terms of effectiveness, and can also be used as mobile launch platforms.
            1. 0
              30 September 2025 20: 54
              And there’s Motion sickness and seasickness tablets Dimenhydrinate (Dimenhydrate 50mg), 10 pcs. at a price of 200 rub. wassat
      2. 0
        6 October 2025 18: 19
        Quote: Leshak
        There is no fleet, but there are admirals

        But there's no navy there... there are sailors and marines available.😁
  2. +7
    30 September 2025 04: 38
    So, what kind of danger and damage did Ukrainian unmanned cavalry ships inflict from the sea on the Russian Black Sea Fleet, equipped with "normal" ships, and its deployment facilities in Crimea, and what kind of danger did the normal ships of the Ukrainian Navy inflict? That's right, no "normal" ships. Only unmanned cavalry ships, because the Ukrainian Navy lacked any "normal" ships armed with artillery or missile fire equivalent to the force of even one unmanned cavalry ship. And even our Black Sea Fleet practically had to hide it... So, I want to ask, what would have happened if, in addition to unmanned cavalry ships, the Ukrainian Navy also had "normal" ships in its fleet, with a combined firepower equivalent to that of the "normal" surface ships of the Russian Black Sea Fleet?
    Therefore, in my opinion, the Russian Navy needs both a BEK and “normal” ships.
    1. +9
      30 September 2025 07: 08
      Quote: north 2
      Therefore, in my opinion, the Russian Navy needs both a BEK and “normal” ships.
      This is obvious, but this also requires talented admirals and experienced politicians.
      Given what's happening in this bizarre military operation, it's no wonder we lost the Moskva. Fighting and trading with enemies simultaneously, not planning from the outset to exploit the Black Sea Fleet's dominance to seize Odessa, catering to the whims of big-money traders.
      Otherwise, fire ships couldn't replace a fleet of frigates and battleships in their time. The "mosquito fleet" only existed as a topic of discussion before World War II. Now, under our oligarchs, the idea of ​​attack aircraft on mopeds has arisen instead of new tanks and infantry fighting vehicles, drones instead of new fighters, and unmanned aerial vehicles instead of a full-fledged navy. Who really needs this kind of "hockey?" Despite all the war expenses, grief and suffering, and sanctions, our billionaires are only getting fatter. How much longer can the "SVO" exist, with its absurd self-imposed restrictions on combat operations, and the Black Sea Fleet retreating to Novorossiysk?
      1. +7
        30 September 2025 07: 24
        Quote: Per se.
        This is obvious, but this also requires talented admirals and experienced politicians.

        Exactly.
        If you take one brick,
        There is little use in it,
        Because of it
        You can't build a house.
        If a couple of bricks
        Put it next to me,
        There will be only two walls -
        It's inconvenient to live!
        I would take a lot of bricks
        (About five pieces) -
        That would be a nice house!
        But where can I get them?

        It's hard to become a true admiral by honing your knowledge and experience at parades...
        It's hard to find a real politician among hypocrites and chatterboxes...
      2. +4
        30 September 2025 09: 24
        Quote: Per se.
        The topic of attack aircraft on mopeds instead of new tanks and infantry fighting vehicles, drones instead of new fighters, and unmanned aerial vehicles instead of a full-fledged fleet came up.

        Very vital questions! Too bad there are no answers.... am
      3. 0
        6 October 2025 18: 26
        Quote: Per se.
        , under the Black Sea Fleet, that went to Novorossiysk?...

        Because Sevastopol is a good place to be in peacetime, when there are no threats... in all other cases, Novorossiysk is. WWI/Civil War and WWII demonstrated this well.
      4. 0
        6 October 2025 18: 30
        Quote: Per se.
        Fight and trade with enemies at the same time,

        You apparently don't know... but in the world, trading with the enemy is basically normal. We only didn't have this during the Napoleonic Wars, WWI, and WWII.
        1. +1
          7 October 2025 06: 47
          Quote: Alexey Sedykin
          You apparently don't know...
          I know, money doesn't "smell". Therefore,We didn't have this only during the Napoleonic Wars, WWI and WWII"Now, apparently, the "elite" has different ideas about those who kill Russians.
    2. +1
      30 September 2025 07: 56
      Quote: north 2
      Therefore, in my opinion, the Russian Navy needs both a BEK and “normal” ships.
      So that's what he wrote the article about?! winked
      hi
    3. -2
      30 September 2025 10: 37
      Quote: north 2
      I want to ask, what would have happened then, if the Ukrainian fleet, in addition to the BEK, also had in its fleet “normal” ships, equivalent in total firepower to the “normal” surface ships of the Russian Black Sea Fleet???

      So remember the 8/08/08 campaign of the Georgian "squadron" and what happened to it.
      And besides, the Ukrainians didn't engage in open combat with the Black Sea Fleet forces. They were like thugs, wielding a Finnish knife from around the corner. It's too bad our guys missed the boat and exposed themselves. Well, that's a national trait—to wash yourself in blood before swinging and punching someone in the face.
      1. +2
        30 September 2025 13: 49
        They didn't engage in open combat with the Black Sea Fleet forces. They were like thugs, wielding a Finnish knife from around the corner.

        You might think that in modern wars one must fight openly, in a chivalrous manner.
        1. +2
          1 October 2025 15: 09
          Quote: Marlin
          You might think that in modern wars one must fight openly, in a chivalrous manner.

          Nowadays, all methods are good for achieving victory in battle, except those that violate the customs and m-n rules of warfare and the treatment of prisoners of war.
          But colleague Sever-2 doubted the combat capability of the Black Sea Fleet forces, asking a rhetorical question.
          What would have happened then if the Ukrainian fleet, in addition to the BEK, also had in its fleet "normal" ships, equivalent in total firepower to the "normal" surface ships of the Russian Black Sea Fleet???
          To which I responded, comparing the actions of the Ukrainian Armed Forces' Main Intelligence Directorate to the methods of a backstreet lesson. What's the problem? Everyone fights as best they can. And hypothetical scenarios are good when all other things are equal, not when all your naval ships have been sunk...
    4. 0
      30 September 2025 20: 24
      Quote: north 2
      So I want to ask, what would have happened then if the Ukrainian fleet, in addition to the BEK, also had in its fleet “normal” ships, equivalent in total firepower to the “normal” surface ships of the Russian Black Sea Fleet???

      Yes, the same thing. All the successes of the BEKs have a simple explanation: modern ships were never designed to combat them. In time, new ships will be built with anti-BEK artillery, just as ships from the early 20th century had anti-mine artillery, and their acoustics will be improved for better detection.
  3. +5
    30 September 2025 04: 43
    [media=http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRf_e9soWRM]

    I recall a similar experiment during the Soviet era, 1925-1935. Only back then, they didn't use BEKs, but torpedo boats. And the visionary behind the all-powerful torpedo boat fleet was Red Marshal Tukhachevsky. There are many articles on this topic. I'll send you a YouTube link.
  4. 0
    30 September 2025 05: 09
    As an example, we can take the attack on the American destroyer Cole in October 2000. Long before the BEC became a significant weapon... A good example

    This is not a good example at all, even a grenade can be called an excellent anti-ship weapon - what if you throw it into the combat information center, it hits the ship's command and control system, and voila.
    However, the author then corrects himself...
  5. +4
    30 September 2025 05: 42
    This is a debate about "What's more important—an elephant or a whale?" Or a continuation of the similar "Shield or sword" debate. Everyone knows that it's not "shield OR sword," but "shield AND sword."
    And as a cherry on top: the first "self-propelled mine" (torpedo in today's terms), invented by the Englishman Robert Whitehead in 1866, which is essentially a primitive BEK, did not lead to the abolition of surface ships.
    1. -2
      30 September 2025 09: 37
      "What is more important - an elephant or a whale?"
      Excuse me, please, but "who is stronger - an elephant or a whale?" Yes
  6. -5
    30 September 2025 06: 17
    In my opinion, the author is too blunt in his comparison of the seaworthiness of a BEK and a "normal" ship (of comparable size). Because:
    a) A normal ship's ability to fight in rough seas is hampered not so much by the drop in speed as by the turbulence that disrupts the aiming of its weapons. Современный A ship (there are too many references to the experience of the Second World War) can be equipped with stabilized weapons, but that leaves the crew, whose work is complicated by the pitching motion (at certain combat stations). The unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV), however, doesn't care about these complications and complications.
    b) BECs don't require years or shipyards to build. Over the years, the design and concept can be refined, and technical solutions can be found that ensure speed in rough seas and stealth in calm waters.
    In arguing in favor of surface ships, the author forgot to mention the possibility of a "normal" ship confiscating an enemy's [supply] vessel.
    1. +2
      30 September 2025 13: 46
      there remains a crew whose work is complicated by the pitching (at some combat posts)

      What kind of crew is this, whose combat work is hindered by turbulence?
      1. +2
        30 September 2025 23: 52
        Quote: Marlin
        What kind of crew is this, whose combat work is hindered by turbulence?

        Tupolev-designed topedo boats. Very fast, but not easily navigated. Fighting them in rough seas was very problematic. However, the Germans suffered their main losses at sea from them, not from the naval artillery of Soviet cruisers and battleships.
        1. 0
          1 October 2025 12: 34
          Can you remind me of the German naval losses during the Great Patriotic War caused by naval artillery from Soviet battleships and cruisers? Just don't make things up...
          1. 0
            1 October 2025 18: 48
            Quote from: spyder100
            German losses in naval forces during the Great Patriotic War from naval artillery of Soviet battleships and cruisers

            During the Great Patriotic War of 1941-1945, the Soviet Navy lost 365 ships and vessels. Less than a third were lost to enemy surface forces. Of the 105 large ships lost, none were lost to enemy surface forces.
            Germany lost 616 ships to the Soviet Navy, including a battleship, a cruiser, three destroyers, 10 torpedo boats, and 23 submarines. Surface ships alone accounted for one torpedo boat and four submarines. However, loss figures vary across sources. Generals and admirals, like politicians, should be able to predict the development of military technology and the economy based on sound mathematical calculations. But this isn't the case.
    2. 0
      6 October 2025 18: 36
      Quote: Dometer
      For BEC, the listed complications and complications are not important.

      Are you serious? Or are you joking?
      1. 0
        9 October 2025 02: 27
        All unmanned boats, where no crew is intended, do not require hatches with coamings, guardrails, or a flat deck. Such a vessel can be designed to pass through waves (under the crest).
        On a fire ship-type BEK, weapons [with all sorts of balance beams and stabilizers] are not necessary.
  7. -2
    30 September 2025 06: 21
    A closed competition for a port and ship defense concept is seriously needed. I don't think there are any good designs for unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) or methods for engaging them yet. The majority of candidates are conservative designs for small pleasure craft and small fishing boats, although some of them do have innovative designs that can reach speeds of up to 200-300 km/h.
    There are construction cranes for high-rise construction. Why not use them to monitor the waters around ports by installing small radars and video cameras, wired UAVs, or anti-tank guided missiles for close-in destruction of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). Incidentally, this could also be used to protect landlocked cities and oil refineries.
    It's not that expensive, and the administration will find the money for it. Don't sit back and do nothing, but engage in active defense and help the army's air defense.
    Another issue is to use reconnaissance to determine the locations from which strikes are carried out and control the BEK and destroy them.
    Another problem is that NATO, using AWACS aircraft, is targeting Ukrainian unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) and missiles at ports and cities. These, at the very least, need to be neutralized.
    1. +1
      30 September 2025 23: 58
      Quote: V.
      A closed competition for a port and ship defense concept is seriously needed. I don't think there are any good designs yet for either the unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) or the means to destroy it.

      To achieve a successful project, a designer must design a couple of faulty prototypes and learn from their mistakes (gaining experience) while debugging them. If a designer possesses the talents of Tupolev, Polikapov, Korolev, and Lyulka, then the third design will go into production.
  8. +5
    30 September 2025 06: 35
    The Navy operated with a powerful submarine fleet, while surface parade toys were minimized.
    Well, that's the extent of the "expertise." It's been written and stated millions of times: a navy needs to be comprehensive, from aviation to the very same unmanned combat aircraft. And an underwater component without a developed surface component is a dead end.
  9. -2
    30 September 2025 06: 42
    What's stopping you from making a "wet" bulwark a meter away from a regular one, say, from 10mm steel?
    Like screens on tanks.
    1. +1
      30 September 2025 10: 48
      Quote: Hitriy Zhuk
      What's stopping you from making a "wet" bulwark a meter away from a regular one, say, from 10mm steel?
      Like screens on tanks.

      You're obviously a landlubber. So you can't imagine the POWER OF THE SEA! It'll lick away your "protection" without even a bat of an eye. And walking on smooth water is only possible in the bathtub (and even then, only if there's no mermaid nearby). lol
      1. 0
        30 September 2025 21: 12
        So is this on the cruiser Askold?
        1. 0
          1 October 2025 01: 42
          This device allows a ship's crew to swim in the sea without fear of sharks during long anchorages. In the era of sailing ships, sharks were successfully defeated with nuclear weapons, but with the transition to rifled weapons, they lost the ability to hit, so this net was invented. Incidentally, it can be used to reduce a ship's braking distance (for example, to avoid hitting an iceberg).
          The first torpedoes (I saw them in a film) were made in the shape of sharks, so these nets were sometimes used to protect against them.
        2. 0
          1 October 2025 14: 55
          Quote: Sergey Alexandrovich
          So is this on the cruiser Askold?

          This? Mine nets, but! WHILE the ship is berthed. And if you haven't noticed, they weren't rigidly welded to the ship's hull, as you suggest. Or are you suggesting that the "bulwark" isn't firmly attached to the ship's hull? If so, it's not a bulwark, but a trim. They're essentially the same "nets," only rigid and "hole-free." And it wouldn't be possible to "weld" them: the current NK side plating thickness is 6/8 mm, or rarely 10-12 mm. They're saving weight, though. And even an armor belt won't protect against the power of modern torpedoes. Heavy anti-ship missiles, by the way, also carry semi-armor-piercing warheads... So... your proposal is useless. Otherwise, modern shipbuilders would have taken advantage of it long ago.
          1. -2
            1 October 2025 19: 40
            You're not competent enough to throw around negative comments. If only because there were other solutions. There were the so-called anti-torpedo bulges. And I didn't suggest anything to you, don't make things up. You're not mature enough to have anything suggested to you.
  10. +8
    30 September 2025 06: 58
    Quote: Roman Skomorokhov
    And the events in Ukraine have dramatically changed the entire worldview on all continents.
    The Karabakh war dramatically changed our worldview, when Azerbaijani Bayraktars, like in a computer game, easily destroyed Armenian equipment, including air defense systems. They were also used in Libya and Syria, but in Karabakh they truly proved their worth. It was then that the generals had to seriously consider their approach to the new, previously unknown aspects of war.
    1. +2
      30 September 2025 07: 45
      They forgot about this small detail: UAVs operated in Karabakh practically without any impact from Karabakh's air defense systems, and it turned out like a shooting gallery.
      1. +3
        30 September 2025 08: 11
        Quote: Andrey VOV
        One caveat: UAVs operated in Karabakh with virtually no impact from Karabakh's air defense systems.
        Not exactly. There was the Wasp, Thor, S-300, Cube, S-125, and something else, I can't remember now.
        1. +3
          30 September 2025 08: 41
          However, the guidance of most of the systems didn't work on the Bayraktars; in fact, there were only two points where they were visible: the S-400 near the capital and the boats off the coast. The rest remained blind.
          If the Osa had been modernized in time to handle such targets, the situation could have changed dramatically. The Armenians had slashed their military budget and suffered a significant setback in technology and officer training—everyone could see how ineptly they often acted.
          1. +2
            30 September 2025 11: 00
            Quote: multicaat
            But the guidance of most of the complexes did not work on the Bayraktars
            How could the guidance not work when Bayraktar has at least two points by which it is clearly visible on the radar - propeller and fixed landing gear, sticking out in all directions like the crooked legs of a... whore. Probably also an IR trace...
            1. 0
              30 September 2025 11: 26
              Well, the equipment was so powerful that nothing smaller than the Pyramid of Cheops had ever seen it.
              In addition, air defense missiles also have serious limitations in sensitivity.
              But a wasp with two guidance modes - infrared and optical - would be effective.
              But the Armenians didn’t have a single modification like this.
              1. +2
                30 September 2025 11: 30
                Quote: multicaat
                But the Armenians didn’t have a single modification like this.
                Bayraktar - this is not a fighter or a cruise missile, but an ordinary flying tub, which theoretically could be detected by the most primitive detection means...
                1. 0
                  30 September 2025 11: 32
                  At 10 km, even knowing that it is flying, you will get tired of looking for it in the sky with binoculars.
                  Yes, in theory it can be detected and they were detected when the bombs were already falling.
                  And before that, while he was slowly flying for several hours to the scene of action, as a rule, no one saw them.
                  1. +1
                    1 October 2025 01: 50
                    Quote: multicaat
                    At 10 km, even knowing that it [Bayraktar] is flying, you will get tired of looking for it in the sky with binoculars.

                    Especially if it is not in the entire sky visible to you, because it is hidden behind the ridge.
          2. 0
            30 September 2025 16: 59
            This is a sensation! Armenia has a sea! [media=http://]
            1. 0
              1 October 2025 08: 53
              Why are you distorting what was said?
              The point is that the MKRs based in the Caspian Sea could partially assist Armenian air defenses in detecting UAVs. There was no mention of any Armenian sea.
      2. +1
        1 October 2025 00: 10
        Quote: Andrey VOV
        UAVs operated in Karabakh practically without any impact from Karabakh's air defense systems, and it turned out like a shooting gallery.

        As a result of this war, Russian engineers upgraded their radars and air defense systems. Aliyev's first attempt to recapture Karabakh failed in 2016. Having destroyed approximately 20% of Armenia's modern equipment in the first two days of fighting, Turkish drones encountered electronic warfare. The Turks, drawing on their experience in the conflicts in Karabakh and Syria, further upgraded their drones. Around 2020, Armenians from Russia alone transferred 3 billion rubles to Pashinyan's Karabakh fund, which he used to finance his election campaign and fund propaganda against Putin, Russia, and those who advocate for good relations with Russia.
    2. 0
      30 September 2025 12: 09
      I'll express my opinion. Please don't kick me. love I believe that classic ships, crammed with various types of weapons and detection systems in a limited displacement, should be retired. The problem is that classic ships, on the one hand, have limited ammunition capacity and cannot withstand massive attacks from UAVs and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) on both surface and underwater platforms. On the other hand, they have low resistance to damage, even minor ones, such as damaging electronic detection and control systems. In my view, there are only two options: continue building classic ships, but with a significantly larger displacement—much larger than modern ships—roughly the size of the largest battleships of World War II, and just as heavily armored and protected to accommodate as many different types of weapons and ammunition as possible. The second option is to separate detection and control from weapons and ammunition—that is, build separate detection and control ships and arsenal ships carrying weapons and ammunition, and use them together as a single unit. That's my opinion. It may be wrong.
    3. 0
      30 September 2025 19: 08
      Azerbaijani Bayraktars, like in a computer game, easily destroyed Armenian equipment, including air defense systems
      Why then did the Ukrainian Bayroktars run out in a month without destroying anything?
      1. +2
        30 September 2025 19: 54
        Why then did the Ukrainian Bayroktars run out in a month without destroying anything?
        Because we've learned how to fight them. But we haven't learned how to fight small drones yet.
        1. +2
          1 October 2025 00: 18
          Quote: Dutchman Michel
          Because they have learned to fight them.

          In Karabakh, Turkish Beiraktars operated as a single system with Israeli weapons on pods. Israeli missiles and bombs destroyed Iran's entire air defense system within a week and destroyed more than half of its long-range launchers. During the war, Hezbollah, the Houthis, and Hamas quickly lost the ability to launch significant drone strikes against Israel.
    4. +1
      30 September 2025 20: 28
      Quote: Dutchman Michel
      It was then that the gentlemen generals had to seriously think about their worldview on new and previously unknown aspects of the war.

      And they started thinking about it. There was so much fuss about the Baydakars in Ukraine—that we were killing the Russians with them... How much did they help them? The whole point is that back then, we were talking about UAVs with completely different performance characteristics, whereas now the main problem is cheap machines. And it was precisely to combat those UAVs that the army was preparing.
      1. 0
        6 October 2025 20: 06
        Quote: Dart2027
        How many cries there were about Baidakar

        Not only in Ukraine... here too, many have written that this is a formidable weapon that we will have to "sweat" to cope with... and perhaps we won't be able to cope with it at all.
        1. 0
          6 October 2025 20: 44
          Quote: Alexey Sedykin
          Not only in Ukraine... many people wrote about it here too

          Yes I remember.
    5. +1
      2 October 2025 23: 24
      What about Desert Storm, where the Americans began using heavy drones long before Karabakh? Or all Jewish operations since the 80s (yes, they pioneered UAVs)? Everything was known, but the main thing that changed was the media coverage of the events, when filming and posting them became a parallel war on the internet. The only thing Karabakh demonstrated was that, as expected, air defenses in the mountains are very poorly functioning due to the extremely limited radio horizon, which prevents them from coalescing into a single umbrella and makes it very easy to destroy them piecemeal.
    6. 0
      6 October 2025 19: 19
      Quote: Dutchman Michel
      when the Azerbaijani Bayraktars

      There were Bayraktars in Ukraine too... although I remember they weren't able to achieve any such fame.
  11. +2
    30 September 2025 08: 38
    Author, it's funny that you're trying to recount something that happened more than a century ago, because at the beginning of the 19th century, the Italians seriously dabbled in complete analogues of BECs, and this had a very short-lived effect.
    1. 0
      30 September 2025 12: 35
      Quote: multicaat
      because at the beginning of the 19th century, Italians seriously dabbled in complete analogues of BECs, and this had a very short-lived effect.

      Could you tell me? I only know about the German BEF attack on the Erebus in 1917.
  12. 0
    30 September 2025 08: 40
    A surface and underwater BEK with reconnaissance, minelaying, mine-hunting, fire-ship capabilities, and other functions should become the backbone of a fleet like the Baltic Fleet. In conjunction with UAVs and coastal missile systems.
  13. +3
    30 September 2025 08: 59
    A question along the lines of "will missiles replace infantry?"
    1. 2al
      -1
      30 September 2025 09: 54
      "Infantry" is needed by red line artists and paper tigers; the Houthis and Iranians are quite capable of using missiles and UAVs in their wars with the US and Israel.
      1. +1
        6 October 2025 19: 27
        Quote: 2al
        The US and Israel are quite capable of dealing with missiles and UAVs.

        And what about the American and Israeli contingents in Yemen and Iran?
  14. 0
    30 September 2025 09: 32
    "BEC or normal ships?"
    Can't we have both together?
    1. +2
      30 September 2025 12: 48
      Quote from AdAstra
      "BEC or normal ships?"
      Can't we have both together?

      It's possible and necessary. The BEK is essentially a sabotage weapon and doesn't negate the existence of a "normal," balanced fleet.
      As an example (perhaps not entirely successful) are the actions of the 9th flotilla of the MAS of Prince Borghese and the Italian fleet.
      The saboteurs achieved outstanding success compared to the fleet using non-BEK (a crew of one person waslaughing) in Crete, non-BEK submarines (crew of two) in Alexandria, and simple swimmers in Gibraltar. The entire Italian fleet probably didn't inflict comparable damage on the enemy. But it wasn't they who forced the British to turn each convoy to Malta into a major naval operation with battleships and aircraft carriers, expending enormous resources.
  15. 0
    30 September 2025 09: 39
    At the same time, the only drawback of BECs is considered to be their short range.

    Whatever one may say, BEKs are coastal equipment that can only attack, and not quickly at that.
    This is a very highly specialized tool.
    There are also other autonomous vehicles, such as reconnaissance sailboats, which the US has been using quite successfully for years, but they are all highly specialized.
  16. 0
    30 September 2025 09: 47
    Ah, buffoons... There are a lot of them, but that's not what they're talking about... IMHO.
    Much has been written at one time about the tactics of destroyers and torpedo boats in the 2th century—the equivalent of the BEK. Mass attacks, smoke screens, ambushes...
    But... for some reason, there is no comparison or attempt to connect that experience to today's in the articles. IMHO.

    The same goes for the "dry cargo ships"—the equivalent of the mini-aircraft carriers of the era. Nothing...

    It turns out to be rather empty.
  17. -1
    30 September 2025 09: 53
    The main role was played by the 203-mm shells of the cruisers, which knocked out the radar of the German ship and the torpedoes of the British destroyers (more than 50 pieces).

    The author is a storyteller. The main factor was the British's overwhelming superiority in firepower, primarily thanks to the battleship Duke of York and the British cruisers (the Duke of York's salvo was significantly more powerful than the Scharnhorst's: its main calibers were 356 mm and 283 mm, with shell weights of 720 and 300 kg, respectively). Torpedoes were used to finish off the German battleship, which had already lost its power—a total of 55 torpedoes were launched, only 11 hit, and the storm did nothing to hinder the British destroyers. As for radar, the Germans had another one. Moreover, the British had learned to decrypt German correspondence and were prepared for a German attack.
    1. +1
      30 September 2025 11: 11
      Quote from solar
      and the storm did not hinder the British destroyers in any way.

      It's just that the British didn't build "Narviks". smile
      1. 0
        30 September 2025 11: 31
        The British also had plenty of riffraff among their destroyers at the time. Maclean's Arctic Convoy captures this well.
        In fact, the German destroyers were searching for the convoy further south at that time.
        1. +1
          30 September 2025 16: 18
          Quote from solar
          In fact, the German destroyers were searching for the convoy further south at that time.

          And during the first battle with the cruisers, the RN simply didn't have time to reach the Charles. And when Bey began to withdraw, he ordered the destroyers to return to base.
          The German destroyers observed the flares fired by the British cruisers during the morning battle, but they were far from the Scharnhorst. Admiral Bey ordered them to proceed northeast to join the flagship, but at 11:58, he sent them west again to search for the convoy. After this, there was no further tactical interaction between the Scharnhorst and the German destroyers. Around 1:00 PM, the destroyers, unknowingly, had passed just 15,000 meters south of the convoy. Finally, at 1:43 PM, Admiral Bey ordered them to abandon the search and return to base.
          S.V. Suliga. Scharnhorst-class battleships.
          1. 0
            1 October 2025 10: 30
            That's right. After the attack on Convoy RA-55A had failed and Scharnhorst itself had begun to withdraw, the destroyers were also sent back to base—they had no business there without Scharnhorst. The Germans, however, had no idea that Duke and company were already waiting for them as they retreated.
            1. 0
              1 October 2025 17: 05
              Quote from solar
              The Germans didn’t know that Duke and his company were already waiting for them on their way out.

              Spawn this did not happen, and again the same thing. © laughing
              What I'm getting at is that long-range cover groups regularly emerged from the KON. The same Tirpitz narrowly avoided encounters with them twice, turning away in time—during interceptions by PQ-12 and PQ-17.
              1. 0
                1 October 2025 17: 38
                The Germans did not know that their radio messages had been deciphered by the British.
                1. 0
                  2 October 2025 10: 10
                  Quote from solar
                  The Germans did not know that their radio messages had been deciphered by the British.

                  If I remember correctly, the Germans still used radio communications too widely - even where it was possible to use wired communications (between coastal headquarters).
                  1. 0
                    2 October 2025 10: 20
                    Wired communications were also intercepted by spies. The British and Poles were able to decipher the workings of German encryption machines—Enigma, Lorenz, Hagelin, and others—which gave them an advantage. Early in the war, the Germans made extensive use of wired communications, which enabled Bletchley Park to accumulate data on which to build deciphering algorithms.
    2. +1
      30 September 2025 12: 53
      Quote from solar
      the author is a storyteller.

      I agree. Besides
      The destroyers could at least have launched torpedoes to distract the enemy and put up a smoke screen

      It wouldn't have helped. The Duke of York fired based on artillery radar data, even tracking the flight of its shells.
  18. +7
    30 September 2025 11: 03
    The success of the Black Sea BEC is not their merit, but our shortcoming. sad
    The collapse of the OVR made it impossible to detect the BEFs approaching the bases and destroy them before reaching the harbor. And in Novorossiysk, the close proximity of ships to the largest seaport and its traffic also played a role.
    As soon as the Navy remembered that the OVR is security water district Things immediately improved at the base, not just the harbor. Simple helicopter patrols significantly reduced the number of infiltrating unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). And judging by the news, the Black Sea Fleet has finally started using UAVs to destroy unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).
  19. 0
    30 September 2025 11: 13
    [QuoteBEC or normal ships?[/ Quote]
    We need this, this, that, and the third, and more. And most importantly, it needs to be able to dive, swim, fly, and shoot at the same time.
  20. +6
    30 September 2025 11: 31
    The fleet will operate effectively with its full complement of weapons. However, any bias in one direction or another will be less effective. Everything depends on the theater of operations and the capabilities of the opposing sides. This determines the methods and means of employing weapons.
  21. +2
    30 September 2025 11: 34
    What's the problem with equipping ships with helicopter-type UAVs, like lancets, or FVPs to repel attacks and control the surrounding waters? There's enough space on the ships there.
    1. +1
      30 September 2025 16: 24
      Quote: 501Legion
      What is the problem with equipping ships with helicopter-type UAVs?

      The problem is, they don't exist. The German-Austrian "Camcopter" never got around to being localized.
      Quote: 501Legion
      the same lancets to immerse or FVP to repel attacks and control the water area around

      It's like forcing a sniper to perform visual detection through a rifle scope. FPV and other kamikaze drones are strike vehicles; their cameras aren't for reconnaissance, but for moving into a designated area and acquiring a target at close range.
      The same "Forpost" or "Orlan" missiles are quite suitable for monitoring the waters. The strike aircraft will operate based on their data: area, number and type of targets, speed, and course.
      1. 0
        1 October 2025 19: 37
        Design Bureau Indela has been making all sorts of helicopters since about 2008. They started with a camcopter-like design, but now they're making much larger machines and offering to localize them in Russia. But actually, since 2003, Zala has been supplying decent drones to the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Ministry of Emergency Situations, Gazprom, and others. The Ministry of Defense was the only one who didn't need anything; they bought lancets and cubes in small quantities for the Air Defense Forces, and that was it.
    2. 0
      1 October 2025 01: 57
      Then the unfortunate BEKs will have to wait for disgusting [for these aerial drones] weather.
  22. 0
    30 September 2025 11: 55
    Regarding submarines, I completely agree. Moreover, I've always advocated for our Navy to operate a powerful submarine fleet, while minimizing surface parade parades.

    Despite all its obvious advantages, submarines have one drawback: the lack of air defense and vulnerability to any anti-submarine aircraft.
  23. 0
    30 September 2025 11: 59
    There is already an opinion on our side that a cheap, and therefore numerous, fleet of BECs will be able to paralyze the actions of conventional ships, disrupt maritime trade, inflict damage and even successfully repel attacks thanks to their high speed, small size and available weapons.

    This has already happened during the current conflict. It was precisely due to the actions of the BEKs that the Black Sea Fleet's naval personnel abandoned their main base, turning it into a "suitcase without a handle," and not feeling entirely safe in Novorossiysk and Tuapse. In many ways, the history of the Great Patriotic War is repeating itself.
    1. +1
      1 October 2025 19: 40
      In many ways, the history of the Great Patriotic War is repeating itself.
      The fleet left Crimea when the Germans invaded, and before that, it had sailed to enemy shores. And after the Zmein saga, our fleet went into peacetime mode and isn't fighting anymore. It's just splashing around in the sea, repelling attacks, and occasionally firing caliber rounds.
  24. -1
    30 September 2025 12: 02
    Overall, a lot of nonsense was written. They recalled torpedo and missile boats, which, although small and effective, were unable to displace larger ships because:
    - were crew-owned;
    - had decent dimensions but weak air defense;
    - did not have a huge numerical advantage over normal ships.

    Yeah, the infamous Marshal Tukhachevsky proposed replacing naval forces with torpedo boats altogether. And during WWII, torpedo boats were busy with everything but their intended purpose—attacking convoys and transports.
  25. -1
    30 September 2025 12: 05
    I don't know what to say about the fact that torpedo boats had weak air defense. Yes, that's true. But unmanned combat vessels also have it... occasionally, and nothing more.

    The Sidewinder versus the twin DShK is a somewhat more compelling argument. The downing of at least one aircraft and one helicopter confirms this. The result is a refusal to use aircraft and helicopters against unmanned aerial vehicles.
    1. +1
      1 October 2025 17: 11
      Quote: Marlin
      The Sidewinder versus the twin DShK is a somewhat more compelling argument. The downing of at least one aircraft and one helicopter confirms this. The result is a refusal to use aircraft and helicopters against unmanned aerial vehicles.

      So, the Navy has consistently made the same mistakes. Instead of adopting the system honed in combat by the Ground Forces: a reconnaissance UAV unit, whose equipment is stationed in designated zones (monitoring the water area and detecting targets), a command center/headquarters for the airborne reconnaissance (collecting information, forming a general picture of the situation in the water area based on data from various sources, issuing target designations to reconnaissance aircraft for further reconnaissance and strike aircraft for target engagement), and strike UAV units (flying into a designated area and striking a previously detected target).
  26. 0
    30 September 2025 12: 08
    An AWACS aircraft must be protected. A strategic reconnaissance drone, too. A ship can also be attacked by a bomb, missile, torpedo, or unmanned aerial vehicle.

    It's a pity that those who should have thought about this did not think about it when they sent ships into the zone of possible destruction by enemy cruise missiles and/or unmanned aerial vehicles.
  27. 0
    30 September 2025 12: 10
    There are several reasons why it is not worth relying on the experience of the SVO.
    Firstly, the Ukrainian Armed Forces (and their followers in the Gulf of Aden) use unmanned aerial vehicles (BAVs) in a blatant guerrilla war, unable to provide adequate cover. They lack adequate ships or aircraft, at least for operations in the Black Sea. However, it should be noted that in the coastal zone, using target designation from the shore via Starlink terminals, they were somewhat effective. This was partly because some of them reached their targets and caused damage, but the ratio of their numbers to those destroyed was not even 1 to 10.

    In the current war, in the current theatre, the BEKs have achieved the greatest possible success.
  28. -1
    30 September 2025 12: 13
    From the series "UAVs or regular tanks". laughing

    I predict an EXPLOSIVE growth in BEC development in the coming decades, given the importance of the ocean for the US and China.

    We should expect maritime developments with AI elements, capable of autonomously operating throughout the entire World Ocean. These will come in various sizes and shapes, from solitary creatures to swarms with complex hierarchies and specializations. They will be both surface and underwater, and perhaps even flying simultaneously.hi
  29. +2
    30 September 2025 12: 18
    If we are to draw historical parallels, we can make the following argument: the USSR Black Sea Fleet during the Great Patriotic War, having in its ranks enormous naval forces: a battleship, several cruisers, a dozen destroyers, submarines, was unable to solve virtually a single primary task assigned to the Navy, facing an enemy in the form of boats, landing barges, and several outdated destroyers.
    With such a fleet, it was possible not only to interrupt all enemy communications, but also to constantly destroy his ports: Constanta, Sulina, Varna.
    But they were unable to organize a normal evacuation from Sevastopol in 1942, nor to disrupt the evacuation of Germans from Crimea in 1944.
    1. +2
      30 September 2025 18: 32
      The air force wasn't able to provide cover, so they couldn't, IMHO.
    2. +2
      1 October 2025 00: 30
      Quote: Marlin
      normal evacuation from Sevastopol in 1942, nor disrupt the evacuation of Germans from Crimea in 1944.

      Odessa was evacuated in an exemplary manner. But then, air power was only able to cover convoys to and from Odessa. The German evacuation from Sevastopol was not entirely successful. Thousands of soldiers perished on two transports sunk by Soviet aircraft.
      1. 0
        1 October 2025 17: 23
        Quote: gsev
        Odessa was evacuated in an exemplary manner. But then, air force coverage was provided for convoys to and from Odessa.

        As Miroslav Morozov wrote 15 years ago on Tsushima:
        During the transition there were several German air raids and battles with Black Sea Fleet fighters. Our IA produced 109 air combat missions (56 fighters took part), conducted 18 air strikes. battles and reported the downing of 3 Yu-88, 1 Yu-87, 1 Do-215, 5 Me-109. Our losses - 2 I-153, both pilots were killed, in addition, the Bolshevik TR was sunk by an attack by a large group of bombers with the participation of torpedo bombers (?). Air The fighting continued afterwards. day while covering several groups of ships making the transition from Ak-Mechet to Sevastopol. Our report is about 7 downed planes, 2 I-16s, 1 LaGG-3 were lost, in addition, another LaGG was destroyed during landing. The Leningrad TR was damaged, which ran aground near Evpatoria, but a couple of days later it was raised and brought to Sevastopol on 25.10/XNUMX.
        As I understand it, the Germans spent no less effort on the Luftwaffe to prevent the evacuation than near Tallinn (probably even more, since there was the participation of single-engine fighters), but the effect was many times smaller.

        The 69th Fighter Aviation Regiment of the Red Army Air Forces did not participate in covering the ships at sea. It diverted to Crimean airfields on the night of the 14th (five Yak-1s and six I-16s were deployed), but not very successfully: two I-16s crashed with their pilots, one Yak and one I-16 crashed, but the pilots were unharmed. The following Black Sea Fleet Air Force grouping was assigned to provide cover from 13-17 October 1941:
        Tendra airfield - 87 air force - 4 I-153, 4 air force/8 air force - 6 I-153
        Kunan (10 km south of Ak-Mechet) - 3/32 IAP - 7 I-153, 4/8 IAP - 2 I-153, 2/9 IAP - 6 Yak-1, 101st Squadron - 14 I-16
        aer. Terekly-Konrat (Tendry district) - 3/8 IAP - 7 I-16, 2 I-15
        Khersonessky Lighthouse Airfield - 4/32 Fighter Aviation Regiment - 8 I-153s
        Kacha Air Force - 1/9 IAP - 6 MiG-3, 1/32 IAP - 5 MiG-3
        Belbek Air Force - 3/9 Fighter Aviation Regiment - 8 Yak-1, 5/32 Fighter Aviation Regiment - 3 I-16
        The group was quite large, although a significant part of it could only cover the ships on the approaches to Sevastopol, where the Germans tried not to fly during the day.
    3. -1
      1 October 2025 17: 19
      Quote: Marlin
      During the Great Patriotic War, the USSR Black Sea Fleet, despite having a huge naval force: a battleship, several cruisers, a dozen destroyers, and submarines, was unable to solve virtually any of the main tasks assigned to the Navy, facing an enemy in the form of boats, landing barges, and several outdated destroyers.

      The main adversaries of the Soviet Black Sea Fleet were the Luftwaffe and enemy ground forces. By the fall of 1941, the Black Sea Fleet had lost all shipbuilding and repair capacity, after which its fleet was reduced to flotilla size: 1-2 cruisers, 3-5 icebreakers, and a destroyer.
      Quote: Marlin
      With such a fleet, it was possible not only to interrupt all enemy communications, but also to constantly destroy his ports: Constanta, Sulina, Varna.

      Are the results of Operation Verp not enough for you?
      Quote: Marlin
      But they themselves were unable to organize a normal evacuation from Sevastopol in 1942

      In 1942, all questions were directed at the Ground Forces. They, as in the case of the Tallinn crossing, were unable to hold the territory containing the airfields of the Imperial Navy, which covered the main routes. After this, the fleet's actions devolved into a battering by the Luftas. Nothing was of any help. When attempting to change routes, the ships were escorted by Luftas reconnaissance aircraft literally as they left Novorossiysk. When attempting a breakout at speed, there wasn't enough darkness. The Tashkent, on its final voyage, broke through to Sevastopol at the cost of the destroyer Bezuprechny, which had drawn all the Luftas' forces onto itself.
      1. +1
        1 October 2025 20: 55
        The main adversaries of the Soviet Black Sea Fleet were the Luftwaffe and enemy ground forces. By the fall of 1941, the Black Sea Fleet had lost all shipbuilding and repair capacity, after which its fleet was reduced to flotilla size: 1-2 cruisers, 3-5 icebreakers, and a destroyer.

        But they were able to organize air cover for the evacuation from Odessa, even though the Air Force and Naval Aviation were in a less than ideal position at the time. They were also able to ensure the evacuation remained properly concealed.
        Are the results of Operation Verp not enough for you?

        It's not that I'm unaware of this tragedy. The reasons are obvious:
        1. Clearly insufficient air cover for ships, although in the autumn of 1943 the sky, at least over land, was ours.
        2. Incorrect actions of the destroyer commanders, who gave the order to engage in rescue operations instead of retreating.
        In 1942, all questions were directed at the Ground Forces. They, as in the case of the Tallinn crossing, were unable to hold the territory containing the IAF airfields covering the main routes. After that, the fleet's actions devolved into a bludgeoning operation. Nothing was of any help.

        Questions about interspecies interaction.
        The general conclusion: the problem isn't large surface ships. The problem is the inability to effectively coordinate with other diverse forces and assets. A ship is built for combat and campaigns, not for self-defense.
        1. 0
          2 October 2025 10: 46
          Quote: Marlin
          But they were able to organize air cover for the evacuation from Odessa, even though the Air Force and Naval Aviation were in a less than ideal position at the time. They were also able to ensure the evacuation remained properly concealed.

          Because the evacuation of Odessa was carried out before the army lost the territory containing the airfields that covered the evacuation route. Plus, the enemy near Odessa was the Romanians...
          Sevastopol could only be successfully evacuated before the "Burdard Hunt" began. But then other problems would have arisen.
          Quote: Marlin
          1. Clearly insufficient air cover for ships, although in the autumn of 1943 the sky, at least over land, was ours.

          What cover would they have? There are no domestic long-range single-engine fighters, only frontline fighters. And their patrol time in the area where the German reconnaissance plane was shot down is about an hour. After all, the fleet's Kittyhawks were already in use.
          Use the Pe-3? In an area where Me-109s operate, the Pe-3s are just fodder for the snipers.
          The second problem is long-range detection. It's impossible to constantly maintain forces over the ships capable of repelling a raid by 25-30 Ju-87s under the cover of 8-10 Me-109s. This means maintaining a reserve of fighter aircraft ashore. This means detecting the enemy at a distance sufficient to delay the arrival of reinforcements before they reach the ships. Roughly speaking, the range to the friendly airfield must be equal to the detection range of enemy aircraft—otherwise, the reserve won't make it.
          Even if we involve Molotov in Operation, it is better not to go further than 150 km from the airfield.
          Quote: Marlin
          2. Incorrect actions of the destroyer commanders, who gave the order to engage in rescue operations instead of retreating.

          I agree.
          Quote: Marlin
          Questions about interspecies interaction.

          Well, let's assume it had happened in 1942? Would it have helped Kozlov contain Manstein and prevent him from abandoning the Kerch Peninsula?
          By the summer of 1942, the situation in Crimea was in zugzwang: any decision would lead to defeat. We evacuate Sevastopol before abandoning Kerch (abandoning equipment and heavy weapons) – this frees up the Germans' forces, which they can use not only to push the Crimean Front into the sea but also to attempt a landing across the strait. All we have left are marching battalions.
          We are not evacuating Sevastopol - see the current reality.
          1. +1
            2 October 2025 11: 55
            What cover would they have? There are no domestic long-range single-engine fighters, only frontline fighters. And their patrol time in the area where the German reconnaissance plane was shot down is about an hour. After all, the fleet's Kittyhawks were already in use.

            At that time, there was already experience using fighters with external fuel tanks—Pokryshkin himself had flown an Airacobra with drop tanks, right over the Black Sea. What was the cost of adopting this experience for naval aviation?
            Quote: Marlin
            Questions about interspecies interaction.

            Well, let's assume it had happened in 1942? Would it have helped Kozlov contain Manstein and prevent him from abandoning the Kerch Peninsula?
            By the summer of 1942, the situation in Crimea was in zugzwang: any decision would lead to defeat. We evacuate Sevastopol before abandoning Kerch (abandoning equipment and heavy weapons) – this frees up the Germans' forces, which they can use not only to push the Crimean Front into the sea but also to attempt a landing across the strait. All we have left are marching battalions.
            We are not evacuating Sevastopol - see the current reality.

            At least until June 30, 1942, the airfield near the Khersones lighthouse was more or less operational, meaning it could have provided extermination cover. With this last, what prevented us from deploying the cruisers and battleship Parizhskaya Kommuna to provide artillery support for the retreating troops, when their main guns had a range sufficient from Cape Khersones to Bakhchisarai? If our valiant command couldn't provide even this, then really, why did we need large warships at all?
            1. 0
              2 October 2025 12: 49
              Quote: Marlin
              At that time, there was already experience using fighters with external fuel tanks—Pokryshkin himself had flown an Airacobra with drop tanks, right over the Black Sea. What was the cost of adopting this experience for naval aviation?

              Oh, I forgot about the Airacobras—they were also used to provide cover for the ships. All eight of them.
              Unfortunately, the backbone of the Black Sea Fleet's air force is the Yak-1 and LaGG-3 frontline fighters, with their long range.
              Quote: Marlin
              At least until June 30, 1942, the airfield near the Khersones lighthouse was more or less operational, which meant that it was possible to provide extermination cover.

              What radius?
              Quote: Marlin
              Having the latter, what then prevented the use of cruisers and the battleship "Paris Commune" for artillery support of the retreating troops, when the range of their main calibers was sufficient from Cape Khersones to Bakhchisarai?

              It is likely that the "Parisianka" was put into repairs in April 1942 due to the complete depletion of the main battery barrels after the firing in March 1942.
              Despite the absence of combat damage, the battleship needed serious repairs: the barrels of six 305 mm guns were cracked at the muzzle ends, and the ends of some of the barrels were torn off, the resource of the guns (250 combat rounds per barrel) was completely spent. According to peacetime standards, 6-8 months were allocated for their replacement, and in 1942 this operation was completed in 16 days.
              On April 22, the ship was visited in Poti by the commander of the Black Sea Fleet, Vice-Admiral F.S. Oktyabrsky, after which the battleship was repaired (the cracks were welded and additional reinforcements were installed by July 1942).
              © A.M.Vasiliev. Battleships of the "Marat" type.
              The remaining cruisers continued to operate: Molotov and Voroshilov supported the unsuccessful Crimean Front offensive in March 1942, and then sailed to Sevastopol, delivering ammunition, evacuating the wounded, and performing fire support missions.
  30. -1
    30 September 2025 12: 28
    For some reason, they had to stuff a frigate's payload into the hull of a clumsy, slow cargo ship for camouflage. It's a lousy idea. It might work, of course, but that would be a serious problem for a fourth- or fifth-world country. Where there's decent intelligence, they'll spot it and neutralize it.

    Okay, a dry cargo ship used as a TPM, or transport and launch vehicle, in coastal parlance. That is, the missiles are in launch containers, while the guidance systems and control center are located elsewhere.

    A modern container ship isn't all that slow. Compared to a frigate, it can travel at 20-25 knots at full speed, compared to 28-30 knots at full speed (30 is rare). A typical fuel-efficient ship, used by "very few," can travel at 16-18 knots, which is more in line with slow-moving bulk carriers.
    The problems are different:
    1) All modern merchant vessels, with the exception of small vessels, fishing vessels, and yachts, have an AIS identification system. (And many of those are already installing them.) A radar signature consistent with a container ship with its AIS turned off, especially in a combat zone, will automatically attract the close attention of the entire navy, more so than a signature from a corvette-class vessel, which is more consistent with a "fishing vessel."
    2. Legal aspect. On what legal basis will the Navy use civilian vessels under a neutral flag of convenience for military purposes?
  31. +2
    30 September 2025 12: 51
    The unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) is a very good complement to existing naval weapons, but it will in no way replace conventional ships. At least not for the next 10-15 years.


    As practice in seas such as the Black and Baltic Seas shows, various modifications of the BEC are quite capable of blocking shipping, given the desire and financial resources, even today.
  32. +3
    30 September 2025 13: 13
    Could a weapon replace a floating structure? Is it just me, or does that sound rather odd?
    1. +1
      30 September 2025 17: 15
      This "weapon of destruction" has already successfully shot down both helicopters and aircraft with its weapons. The development of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) will further progress toward their enlargement, transforming them into carriers for other unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), surface and underwater, and UAV-based systems, equipping them with AI, more flexible control and navigation systems integrated into the network-centric battlefield, and combining them into "barriers" and "swarms" led by control UAVs, "mothers," and so on. Such "screens" and "swarms" are already being tested in the US, England, and China. But here in Russia, the debate over whether they are needed or not is still ongoing. These disputes stem primarily from financial poverty, production and technological shortcomings, and the rigid thinking of "admirals" and "hands-on drivers" stuck in the "ancient" age and the late 20th-century mindset... And also from a preoccupation with strike weapons to the detriment of everything else... Just look at the cramming of "Kalibr" missiles "where they're needed and not needed," into any "crumb," at the expense of weakening other characteristics...
    2. +2
      30 September 2025 17: 22
      Much has been written about the BEK, and no one (though perhaps they didn't read it carefully) writes that building a BEK is not a problem, you can even do it in a shed, and it will sail where it needs to go, but only on the condition that there is a satellite communication system like Starlink.
  33. +1
    1 October 2025 02: 10
    Quote: agond
    but subject to the presence of a satellite communication system like Starlink

    You don't need a Starlink! You just need a good, electronic warfare-resistant radio link with a range of 5-10 km. The second end can be concealed in any beach locker room, a parked [near the harbor] van, behind an advertising poster, ... (Then connect these radios to the local internet or [using fiber optics, for example] to the saboteur-spotter's cache [some kilometers away from the radio station]).
  34. kig
    +1
    1 October 2025 02: 15
    There are no more successes somehow.

    The author probably only reads Krasnaya Zvezda, watches Solovyov and listens to Channel One.
  35. 0
    5 October 2025 23: 44
    So, what do we have? We have the following disadvantages of the BEC:
    - short range;
    - poor seaworthiness;
    - lack of air defense;
    - limited area of ​​application, mainly coastal zone;
    - the inability to quickly respond to the situation due to the lack of a crew;
    - impossibility of fighting for survivability;
    - a large arsenal of suppressive means;
    - the inability to act independently; target designation by ships or other guidance means is required.

    In the merits
    - low cost and the ability to build in large quantities;
    - high speed on flat water;
    - the possibility of flexible transformation in terms of armament.

    Almost word for word, similar things have been said, continue to be said, and will continue to be said about UAVs. But no one who says or writes such things is eager to travel to the Gray Zone and prove their point firsthand. Those who wrote about UAVs and their use cases were mocked and ridiculed as if they were idiots, but what's the bottom line? Tanks fire short bursts from indirect positions and flee, self-propelled guns don't form batteries, armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles don't even venture near the Gray Zone. A helicopter was recently shot down. Food, ammunition, and medicine are delivered to frontline soldiers using those same UAVs. And all of this has been replaced by cheap, flimsy, civilian, toy UAVs.

    But BECs simply can't navigate in more or less decent waves, which severely limits their use. Therefore, one shouldn't count on their total effectiveness.
    Are there any physical limitations to solving this problem? Do the laws of the universe prohibit making it semi-submersible? Apparently, there are already ready-made prototypes (not ours, of course).

    Moreover, the BEC is simply incapable of operating independently, even if artificial intelligence is inserted into the box that controls it.
    What are the limitations here? It doesn't need to waste energy hovering, so it can be fitted with more powerful optics and a processor. Then it searches, recognizes, classifies the target, and then operates independently. It can hang around in this idle mode for months, like some UAVs do now. However, these UAVs often have a small solar panel on the side for recharging.

    This means that there must be aircraft, UAVs or ships in the area of ​​application.
    They answered themselves: You can use a satellite constellation (if there is one)

    While Colombian drug cartels are building one- and two-man submarines from scrap materials in their tropical regions, most people in our country still refuse to accept the fact that drones have completely transformed warfare. This suggests that when Ukraine establishes mass production of unmanned aerial vehicles, as they did with UAVs, they will also argue that they are useless and unnecessary in our country.
    1. 0
      6 October 2025 20: 23
      Quote from barbos
      And all this was replaced by cheap, flimsy, civilian, toy UAVs

      Until a certain time... at one time, people talked in a similar vein about machine guns, about airplanes, about tanks, about missiles...
      1. 0
        28 October 2025 09: 05
        I don't understand what you're trying to convey in the quote and your text. I personally interpret this quote and continue as follows: "And all this was replaced by cheap, flimsy, civilian, toy UAVs." And what will happen when specially designed devices replace civilian ones!!!
  36. 0
    26 October 2025 12: 41
    All these gadgets are good, but the territory is not conquered or liberated until a soldier sets foot there.
  37. 0
    28 October 2025 08: 54
    If there's good communication and navigation, the BEK is a definite option. A control center on the ships is only needed if long-distance communication is impossible. Otherwise, the control center and operators should be located in the rear.
    These ships are designed exclusively for delivering unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) within range. They are designed to be unsinkable. The compartments and warheads are completely autonomous. Damage control is automated. The crew is 20, like a bulk carrier.
    .
    In principle, both a homing missile and a torpedo can be considered analogous to a BEK. The following reasoning has been familiar to me for about ten years. But I didn't publish it then, and I don't now. I don't want my children to be killed by robots...
    .
  38. 0
    28 November 2025 22: 31
    The fleets of the seas and the oceans are different. The water area dictates the tactics and strategy for deploying equipment and weapons, so to speak. In small, relatively confined waters, large ships are unnecessary. They're just targets. Currently, Black Sea Fleet ships are simply firing Kalibr missiles at the berth. This could easily be done from the shore, given the appropriate launcher. What's needed is a larger fleet of mosquito submarines, BEKs. But the vast oceans, as you can imagine, present a completely different scenario.
  39. 0
    14 June 2026 20: 22
    Don't think that MAGURA is the pinnacle of technology and that 28 machine guns in the corners of the bridge will save us. The BEK can have an underwater carrier and not surface at the time of the attack. It can have a MIRV for a dual- or triple-medium attack to overload air defense/antisubmarine warfare/etc., or just the lead one, while all the other AI will prefer to complete the attack in single-unit mode.