On the causes of the death of the squadron battleship Oslyabya. Finale

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On the causes of the death of the squadron battleship Oslyabya. Finale

В previous article I presented calculations of the Oslyabya's sinking, showing how much water the battleship would have had to take into its compartments to achieve a list of approximately 12 degrees and a trim by the bow "right up to the hawse holes," as witnesses observed. The calculation results are as follows:

1. To obtain the observed list of the Oslyaba, taking into account the mass of water on the living deck (which reached 697-715 tons) and in the compartments below, it would have been sufficient to have received no more than 150-278 tons of water into the coal bins and adjacent spaces—not including counter-flooding. Taking counter-flooding into account, it is likely that 200-350 tons of water were received into the coal bins and adjacent compartments on the port side.

2. To obtain the observed trim, in addition to the flooding and water masses on the living deck specified in paragraph 1, 160–200 tons of water or more must have accumulated in the forward compartments below the living deck.

3. In both cases, we're talking about the amount of water in the compartments at the time of the Oslyabya's failure, not the amount that entered the ship. The amount of water entering these compartments must have been significantly greater, as some of the water was pumped out by dewatering devices—turbines.

Based on the reasons I outlined in previous articles, it's most likely that these floods were the result of two large-caliber shell hits, one of which struck opposite the first compartment of the living deck, and the other in the area of ​​coal pit 10. However, it's also possible that there was also a hit in the area of ​​coal pit 16, or that a shell exploded near the side, causing water to enter the reserve powder magazine of the 10-inch guns. In the latter case, the amount of water expected to be in the forward compartments increases further, since flooding in the area of ​​coal pit 16 would have acted as a counterflood, correcting the ship's trim by the bow.

Are such floods physically possible?

That the forward compartments below the living quarters could absorb 200 tons of water is beyond doubt, but could the Oslyabya have absorbed 200–350 tons of water as a result of a spill into the area of ​​the 10th coal pit? Yes, quite possibly. According to copies of the plans provided by Krestyaninov and Molodtsov, the area of ​​the 10th and 12th coal pits, along with the adjacent corridors and the ammunition magazine for the 6-inch guns at the lower deck level, can be estimated at 60,3 square meters. Considering that the water reached the second boiler room, this means the water entered through spaces occupying approximately three interdeck spaces below the living quarters. That is, at least 7 meters.

These dimensions yield a parallelepiped with a volume of approximately 422 cubic meters. Even if a third to half of this space were occupied by shells, coal, and other cargo (which is doubtful), there would still be room for 216–288 tons of water. And this doesn't include, of course, the water that flooded the ship onto the living deck, which increased steadily as the ship began to list.

The main cause of flooding


A hit near the first compartment of the living deck allowed water to enter not only the first and second compartments of that deck, but also the compartments below: through ventilation pipes, hatches, and "deck gaps" (according to M.P. Sablin). However, as part of the survivability measures, the hatches should have been closed (V. Zavarin mentions this), and the flooding through the ventilation and gaps should have been contained. But, as we know from witness testimony, this was not achieved: the water kept coming in. Considering that approximately 35 minutes elapsed between the hit and the ship's incapacitation, even an influx of 200 tons of water averages a significant 5,7 tons per minute, or 95 kg per second. Of course, one could assume that the bulk of the water entered immediately after the battle damage, and that the flooding then largely ceased, but this is not the case. If this were the case, the bow would have become lower quite quickly, but according to eyewitnesses, it increased gradually. This is typical of gradual and, unfortunately, uncontrolled flooding.

The same applies to the hit in the area of ​​the 10th coal pit. This hit shouldn't have caused any serious flooding. It was expected that the water would flood the space between the slope and the side, nothing more. If this had happened, the amount of water entering the Oslyabya would have been extremely insignificant and would not have caused any noticeable list. But M. P. Sablin was forced to activate the turbines in the holds of the first and second boiler rooms, indicating that the water had penetrated very far here too—far further than the battleship's structural protection would have allowed.

Therefore, the problem wasn't battle damage to the ship, but the crew's failure to contain the water ingress into the Oslyabya. But what about flood control on other battleships of the same class?

Squadron battleship Peresvet


During the Battle of the Yellow Sea, two large-caliber Japanese shells, likely both 12-inch caliber, struck the Peresvet's unarmored bow near the waterline, one each in the first and second compartments of the living deck. The first shell struck the side opposite the electroplating shop and exploded there, "bulging the door and corrugated iron bulkheads." Water pouring into the compartment washed everything out. According to eyewitnesses, the water flooded the living deck to a depth of 1,5 feet. Apparently, the bulkheads, buckled by the explosion, lost their watertight seal, causing water from the electroplating shop to spill across the first compartment of the living deck.


But the watertight bulkhead between the first and second compartments remained intact, limiting the flooding to the deck of the first compartment. The deck itself, hatches, ventilation, etc., were undamaged and unsealed, preventing water from penetrating below the living deck.

The second hit hit the second compartment of the living deck in the office room and caused the same effect as the first. Interestingly, in the official stories The water level on the living deck is even higher than in the first compartment—two feet instead of one and a half. The only difference was that the hatch to the mine-laying compartment in the second compartment was open, allowing water to flow through it into this compartment, the under-turret compartment, and the "bomb magazines." But as soon as the hatch was battened down, the water flow below the living deck stopped.

As a result, for the Peresvet, everything ended with, according to eyewitnesses, water splashing on the battleship's living deck, flooding it by 1,5–2 feet, that is, roughly 46–61 cm. Apparently, a slight trim developed, but it did not increase, so the Peresvet was able to continue to hold formation and fight.

Another rather nasty hit landed under the forward casemates of the Peresvet's 6-inch guns. The blow struck the armor belt, although the armor plate wasn't penetrated, but... I'll cite the testimony of a senior officer. artillery officer of the Peresvet V.N. Cherkasov:

"The corner of the slab was apparently poorly reinforced, causing it to sag inward about two feet. Only the soft part of the slab was bent, while the hardened part developed several concentric cracks. Water flooded the 33rd and 37th compartments, the upper (20 tons each) and the lower (60 tons each). The lower compartments flooded through manholes in the carapace deck, which were not tightly sealed. At anchor in Arthur, they were quickly pumped out, after which the water rose very slowly."

As a result of the damage sustained, Peresvet took on 160 tons of water, stopping the influx. Had the filler necks been intact, only 40 tons would have been absorbed instead of 160. As part of the survivability struggle, the resulting list was "corrected" by counter-flooding, and the battleship maintained its line without issue at 13 knots until, after the Tsarevich was disabled, the line collapsed. However, Peresvet's battle damage was, of course, not to blame for this.

Despite receiving this damage, the battleship only began to experience any noticeable problems after the battle, as described by Cherkasov:

"At night, after a daytime battle, the following phenomenon was observed: when, upon the appearance of an enemy destroyer, the ships put the rudder overboard and pointed their stern at the destroyer, the Peresvet began to slowly list in the direction opposite to the turn. Consequently, the water standing in the living deck began to roll from one side to the other, thereby increasing the angle of list. The list reached 7-8 degrees, and the battleship remained in this position, and no urge was noticed either to right itself or to list further until the rudder was lifted; then the battleship again began to roll in the opposite direction and again reached a list of 7-8 degrees."

Why didn't this happen in battle? The fact is that the battleship's condition was a consequence of a reduction in its metacentric height, which occurred for a number of reasons. Cherkasov describes them as follows:

“In general, it was felt that the battleship was in a precarious state of equilibrium, which was explained by the fact that the coal from the lower coal pits had been used up, shells, charges and bowers had been used up in large quantities, and some had been raised to the surface as a reserve for the guns, and water was moving in large masses along the deck, as a result of which the center of gravity of the battleship, in addition to rising to a dangerous height, changed its position in the plane of the frames during the list in a direction unfavorable for stability.”

It must be said that the expenditure of shells, while significant, was not so significant as to significantly impact stability. In total, Peresvet expended 109 10-inch shells, 809 6-inch shells, 484 75-mm shells, and 834 47-mm shells (the figures for the 75-mm and 47-mm shells include expended ammunition), which, including propellants, amounts to just over 80 tons. Even if another 30 tons of shells were transferred from the magazines to the guns, that is, shifted from the lower to the upper weight, this is still not a significant change.

Coal consumption, however, is a different matter entirely. According to N. N. Kuteynikov, flagship naval engineer of the Port Arthur detachment:

"The draft in the boilers dropped significantly due to damage to the smokestacks and casings, so coal consumption was likely excessive. I saw nearly empty coal pits on the Peresvet and Sevastopol."

I don't have precise information about the coal reserves on board the Peresvet before the battle, but it was approximately 1500 tons. This was less than the full reserve, but due to the fact that with a full coal reserve, the ship's draft reached 31 feet, which meant the battleship could only enter the outer roadstead of Port Arthur at high tide, Admiral S.O. Makarov set the combat coal reserve at 1500 tons. There is no information about this order being rescinded, therefore, it can be assumed that it was with this reserve that the Peresvet went into battle on July 28, 1904.



Given the testimony of Kuteinikov and Cherkasov, it's safe to say that the battleship consumed a significant portion of its coal reserves: in any case, we're talking about many hundreds of tons. Moreover, by using coal from the lower pits and not transferring it from the upper to the lower ones—and, judging by Cherkasov's testimony, this is precisely what happened—the battleship's "lower" weight was significantly reduced, causing the Peresvet's center of gravity to shift upward.

Accordingly, the free flow of water into the forward compartments certainly reduced the ship's stability, but this was not felt until a significant change in its internal loads occurred. However, once the Peresvet took on water in its double-bottom compartments (excluding the forward ones, to avoid increasing the trim), the ship, according to eyewitnesses, regained its seaworthiness to such an extent that the officers were prepared to immediately consider a repeat attempt to break through to Vladivostok. Consequently, even under these conditions, the loss of stability was easily countered by standard survivability measures.

Squadron battleship "Victory"


I've previously described the damage Pobeda sustained from contact with a Japanese mine, but I'll briefly recap. The explosion occurred on March 31, 1904, the day Admiral S.O. Makarov died. The explosion, at a depth of 11 feet, created an underwater hole extending from frames 54 to 58 and measuring 24 by 16 feet (7,31 by 4,87 m).

As a result, two coal pits located opposite the side of the ship that had been torn apart by the explosion flooded, as did two sections of the side corridor. A small amount of water leaked into the ammunition magazine, which, however, did not flood. This was the extent of the water ingress into the Pobeda.

Pobeda also suffered in the Battle of Shantung. A Japanese 12-inch shell struck below the ship's waterline, knocking out a plug in the 229-mm armor belt. This plug, weighing 7 poods and 20 pounds (approximately 120 kg), along with the warhead of the Japanese shell, in turn penetrated the inner side into the lower coal pit. This pit, along with three adjacent compartments, was flooded, but the water's spread stopped.

Analysis of damage to the Peresvet, Pobeda, and Oslyabya


As can be seen from the descriptions I provided above, the Peresvet and Pobeda were hit by four 12-inch shells between them and were struck by a mine once, each of which resulted in water ingress into the ships' hulls. But in all five cases, the sinkings were successfully contained, with little effort on the part of the crew.

At the same time, judging by the available data, the Oslyabya experienced uncontrolled flooding in two out of two cases. Moreover, while the impact in the area of ​​the 10th coal pit is still debatable, the uncontrolled flooding of the forward compartments below the living deck is hardly refutable: it is supported by both my calculations and, more importantly, by eyewitness accounts.

It's also noteworthy that, in at least one instance, the damage to the battleship Pobeda was far more severe than both hits on the Oslyabya combined. I'm speaking, of course, of the mine explosion, which opened a natural gateway for seawater into the ship's interior. Not only was the area of ​​the breach likely greater than the impact of two or three 12-inch high-explosive shells striking close together, but the impact didn't hit the freeboard or even the waterline, but rather the underwater portion of the ship, causing the water that gushed into its compartments to enter under great pressure. Nevertheless, the water ingress was limited to the coal pits, two sections of the side corridor, and a small leak into the ammunition magazine, the leaks into which were so insignificant that they are often not mentioned at all.

About the reasons for uncontrollable flooding


So, in the Peresvet and Pobeda, water ingress into the hull was contained five times out of five, but in the Oslyabya, this failed to be done two times out of two. Why? It's certainly possible to chalk this up to the inevitable accidents of the sea, but such an explanation seems extremely far-fetched. Still, there's a clear pattern here, and it's not in the Oslyabya's favor.

But what was so different about the Oslyabya from the Peresvet and Pobeda that could have affected its structural integrity? The only fundamental difference was the construction site. While the Peresvet and Pobeda were built at the Baltic Shipyard, the Oslyabya was built at the New Admiralty, part of the Saint Petersburg port, whose quality of work I described in the first articles of this series.

In them, I described in detail the differences between the state-owned shipyards of the St. Petersburg port and the Baltic Shipyard, which, although de facto state-owned, still managed to maintain the structure of a commercial enterprise. Without repeating these in detail, I will simply note that the Baltic Shipyard's advantages in overall shipyard management, procurement, personnel policy, and staff motivation are undeniable.

While the Baltic Shipyard had built a strong workforce, with highly paid workers wisely managed by experienced foremen and engineers, the St. Petersburg Port treated its rank-and-file employees as a readily renewable resource: paying them below market value and firing them when orders failed. The result was an extremely low-quality workforce. And the so-called "directors" who were supposed to perform the foremen's duties were so "good" that the former head of the St. Petersburg Port categorically refused to appoint them over the workers, knowing that doing so would lead them to all manner of abuses.

While at the Baltic Shipyard, a single shipbuilder was responsible for the construction of a ship, at the St. Petersburg port, the construction manager was replaced after the ship's launch. Moreover, speedy launch was incentivized financially, through the payment of so-called "pensions," which literally forced shipbuilders to push the ship, rewarded with impunity: no matter what condition the ship was launched in, another builder would be held accountable for any flaws in the construction.

The St. Petersburg port, in pursuit of petty savings, often split orders for complex ship systems among multiple suppliers, which, of course, was far from beneficial to the reliability of the systems once they were assembled.

Naturally, given the state of the St. Petersburg port, its performance left much to be desired, a fact noted by many and publicized. Perhaps the matter could have been hushed up, but the state of the state-owned shipyards came to the attention of A.F. Vasiliev, Controller General of the Department of Military and Naval Reporting. Even the head of the Naval Ministry could not ignore his "Most Humble Report."

As a result, the management fleet Not only did it recognize the claims as legitimate, but it also made significant efforts to normalize the operations of the St. Petersburg port shipyards. Thus, in December 1898, the Commission for Developing Measures to Improve Shipbuilding Conditions in the St. Petersburg Port began its work, headed by Vice-Admiral V.P. Verkhovsky, then head of the Main Directorate of Shipbuilding and Shipbuilding.

However, by the time this commission began its work, the Oslyabya had already been launched. And one shouldn't think that the commission immediately corrected all the shortcomings of the St. Petersburg port: the comparatively low efficiency of its shipyards persisted for many years, as I demonstrated using the example of the construction of the battleship Borodino. Let me simply remind you that in 1903, an average of 592 craftsmen worked daily on the battleship Borodino, while only 302 worked on the Knyaz Suvorov. Yet, the Knyaz Suvorov was completed faster than the Borodino.

Based on the above, the conclusion that the quality of the Oslyabya's construction could not possibly have been on par with the Peresvet and Pobeda is undeniable. This suggests that it was precisely this quality of construction that led to the uncontrolled sinking and, consequently, the Oslyabya's rapid destruction in the Battle of Tsushima.

Conclusion


In his series of articles, the respected A. Rytik concluded that the Oslyabya's demise had nothing to do with the quality of its construction, and that the main cause of the disaster was the accuracy of the Japanese gunners, who managed to hit the battleship's waterline with seven large-caliber shells in a relatively short time.

For the reasons stated in the article "On the damage that predetermined the destruction of the Oslyabya in the Battle of Tsushima"I believe the Oslyabya received only three, possibly four, such hits, with the third and fourth (if they existed) playing no significant role. The Oslyabya was destroyed as a result of damage sustained from just two hits—to the first compartment on the living deck and to the 10th coal pit.

Moreover, I would venture to assert that the Oslyabya's fate was the consequences of a single, initial hit to the bow opposite the first compartment of the living deck. It was the ingress of water below the living deck that caused the battleship to tilt dramatically by the bow. Of course, neither 160 nor 200 tons of water in the forward compartments alone could have lowered the Oslyabya's bow to the hawse holes, but since the Japanese shell's impact opened access to the living deck, it easily did.

Any ship has a reserve of buoyancy, formed by watertight compartments above sea level. If the Oslyabya had lost the watertight seal of the first and second compartments of the living deck as a result of combat damage, but the water had not entered, the battleship would have been relatively harmless, as happened to the Peresvet. If the Oslyabya had sustained an underwater hole, say, by striking rocks, and taken on 200 tons of water, but the side near the living deck remained intact, the ship would only have settled slightly by the bow. In this case, as the trim increased, part of the first compartment of the living deck would have sunk below sea level, and the volume of this part would have generated a buoyant force, quickly halting the increase in trim.

But a hit to the battleship's bow near the living quarters allowed water to enter not only the compartments below the living quarters but also the first and second compartments. Their submersion, instead of generating buoyancy, led to further flooding of these compartments. As I mentioned earlier, the British armor system, which did not protect the ends, could only be effective under one condition: if the unarmored side were to be destroyed, the armored deck had to be watertight, preventing water from leaking into the holds below.

Unfortunately, in the case of the Oslyabya, the structural protection failed to cope with its task. Consequently, even if there had been no breaches in the coal pit area, water would have gradually filled the forward compartments below the living deck, causing a trim first up to the hawse holes and then further. It's difficult to say whether the ship would have been lost, but it's undeniable that less than an hour into the battle, the Oslyabya would have been the "lucky" owner of a trim that precluded any participation in artillery combat.

Can we say that this series of articles has settled the issue of the Oslyabya's demise, and that I speak the Absolute Truth? Of course not. The theory that the Oslyabya sank due to its poor construction and the impact of a pair of large-caliber shells remains a hypothesis.

But, as my calculations and analysis of eyewitness accounts have shown, this hypothesis is entirely justified and free from internal contradictions. At the same time, other versions require extremely broad assumptions.

For example, to achieve hits near the waterline with 7 12-inch shells, the Japanese would have had to have hit the Oslyabya dozens of times with such shells, since the hits were distributed more or less statistically across the ship's silhouette. However, only the Shikishima was continuously firing at the flagship of the 2nd Armored Detachment, while the other two battleships, after initially concentrating their fire on the Oslyabya, shifted their fire to the other Russian ships after 6 and 10 minutes. At the same time, the theory that no more than 3-4 shells hit the Oslyabya's waterline during the approximately 35 minutes of fire does not require the Japanese to be highly accurate.

Of course, my work does not provide definitive proof that the Oslyabya was destroyed by a pair of 12-inch shells. But I hope it has demonstrated to the esteemed reader that it is too early to write off this hypothesis, and that, of all the currently available opinions, this version is likely the most plausible.

Thank you for attention!

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  1. 16+
    24 September 2025 04: 47
    On behalf of all Comrades, I would like to express my sincere gratitude to Andrey (the author) for his work for the benefit of our education in matters of naval history!
    Regards, Vlad!
    1. +8
      24 September 2025 06: 44
      I agree! Great work has been done!
      It has now become interesting to look at the fate of other ships in the St. Petersburg port.
      1. +5
        24 September 2025 20: 10
        Quote: Tlauicol
        I agree! Great work has been done!

        That's right, thank you!
    2. +3
      24 September 2025 20: 10
      Many thanks, Vladislav! drinks
  2. +5
    24 September 2025 05: 16
    … gives, on average, a very significant 5,7 tons per minute or 95 kg per second.

    To put things into perspective, a washing machine requires a water pressure of 8 liters per minute to function properly.
    1. +1
      29 September 2025 14: 46
      ...a washing machine requires a water pressure of 8 liters per minute

      This isn't "pressure" but flow rate. Pressure is pressure. And yes, from this example (1/2"; up to 8 atm.) I can't...imagine the scale")
  3. +4
    24 September 2025 05: 55
    I will cite the testimony of the senior artillery officer of the Peresvet, V. N. Cherkasov

    Cherkasov Vasily Nilovich, 18.04.1878, lieutenant (06.12.1901). "Sevastopol" (senior artillery officer 31.10.1903 - 10.04.1904), "Peresvet" (senior artillery officer 10.04.1904 - 27.11.1904). He was in charge of shell production on the Tiger Peninsula (since 27.11.1904). During the Battle of the Yellow Sea on 28.07.1904, he was lightly gassed. After the surrender of Port Arthur, he refused to be taken prisoner by the Japanese and returned to European Russia.

    But his younger brother is better known:
    Cherkasov Petr Nilovich, 19.06.1882, midshipman (September 1900), lieutenant (06.05.1904). "Vlastny" (chief of staff 1903 - 28.05.1904), "Sevastopol" (junior artillery officer 24.05.1904 - 20.12.1904). In the battle of 28.07.1904 he was concussed in the head and chest, slightly wounded in the head. On 10.08.1904, while towing a battleship that hit a mine into the harbor, he was bruised by a burst hawser. After recovery, he participated in the repair of the ship. In September-November 1904, he commanded the landing reserve of the "Sevastopol" on the shore. He participated in repelling attacks by Japanese destroyers in the bay. White Wolf. During the sinking of the "Sevastopol" on 20.12.1904, acting as a senior officer, he was the second to last to leave the board. He refused to be taken prisoner and returned from Port Arthur to Russia. On 15.01.1905 was in Shanghai on the way to Russia. С3Хbant (26.03.1904, approved 24.01.1905) for the battle of 26.02.1904, А4 "for bravery" (20.12.1904, approved 01.08.1905) for courage and dedication during the siege of the fortress Port Arthur, А3Хbant (12.12.1905), В4Хbant (12.12.1905), С2Хbant (07.08.1906) for distinction in actions against the enemy, by the decision of the Commission that investigated the battle of the squadron on 28.07.1904 - Captain of the 2nd rank (06.12.1911). "Sivuch" (Commander 23.12.1913 - 06.08.1915). Killed on 06.08.1915 in battle with a German squadron in the Gulf of Riga. Captain 1st rank posthumously (February 1916)
    1. +1
      25 September 2025 00: 00
      Having refused to go into Japanese captivity after the surrender of Port Arthur, he returned to European Russia.

      He refused to be taken prisoner and returned from Port Arthur to Russia.

      There were times when people went into captivity voluntarily. If you refuse, we'll cross you off.
  4. +3
    24 September 2025 07: 58
    A fundamental work. Thank you!
    1. +4
      24 September 2025 20: 27
      You're always welcome, Evgeniy! drinks
  5. +3
    24 September 2025 08: 54
    Andrei continues to pose as a historical astrologer, substituting some vague calculations for facts. There's very little real information about the situation on Oslyaba. Neither the number of hits, nor the caliber of the shells, nor the damage sustained to the sides and armored deck are known. It's impossible to even create a rough map of the flooded compartments. All the facts are taken from fragmentary testimony, often second- or third-hand, retold in the most general terms.

    With such initial conditions, relying on calculations of some kind of flooding and heeling moments is quackery. fool
    1. +7
      24 September 2025 09: 28
      A person has put forward his hypothesis and substantiated it. Does it have a right to exist? Yes, it does. It is your right to accept it or not.
      1. +6
        24 September 2025 09: 42
        I once tried to explain to the author that witness accounts given immediately at the scene of an incident and later can sometimes differ greatly. I seriously doubt anyone on board the Oslyabya recorded everything in a notebook or measured it with calipers. Afterward, everyone told their stories "by eye," but this is accepted as the absolute truth.
    2. +4
      24 September 2025 09: 38
      That's exactly it - just guesses and assumptions. However, they're being passed off as revelations from above))) and the crowd applauds enthusiastically))).
      1. +5
        24 September 2025 11: 39
        The author makes guesses even where precise information exists, for example about the size of coal pits.
        1. 0
          24 September 2025 12: 19
          That's why I'm saying there are no good drawings. And without precise and detailed drawings, preferably including the thickness of the structure and the quality of the materials, one can only guess and speculate.
          1. +2
            24 September 2025 12: 29
            Quote: TermNachTER
            with the thickness of the structure

            I have a specification, write if you are interested.

            Quote: TermNachTER
            quality of material

            There were standards for steel quality and acceptance that date back to 1883, I think. I might have them too.
            1. 0
              24 September 2025 14: 04
              Thank you for the offer, but the Russian Yamal-Navy War period isn't particularly interesting to me, even though I wrote a term paper at university on the naval war during the Russian Yamal-Navy War. I'm saying that without detailed drawings of the Peresvets and other ships, discussing the causes of their destruction is inappropriate, as they are unclear. And, in general, Russia's entire shipbuilding and policy from 1895 until the Russian Yamal-Navy War is simply nonsense.
    3. 12+
      24 September 2025 12: 42
      Why so strict? Look, no one knows anything about the Hood's death. There are only a handful of witnesses. But that doesn't stop people from looking for a cause and simulating events. If someone wants to do something, you should never slap them on the hands. You should hit them when they want to ruin it.
      Many things in life are driven by people banging their heads against the wall. Knowledge is certainly power, but ignorance is great power.
      Ultimately, the hypothesis has a right to exist. A rough picture of the ship's sinking has been described. All that remains is to fit all possible versions of the facts into this picture. Even if they are equally probable, this still provides a picture.
      1. 0
        24 September 2025 14: 06
        Who's slapping his hands?))) But don't take your guesses and assumptions as the ultimate truth)))
        1. +3
          24 September 2025 14: 09
          P.S. The reason for the destruction of the Hood is extremely simple - the not very successful project of 1916 had to fight with the project of 1936, built using different technologies.
          1. +2
            24 September 2025 16: 55
            Oddly enough, the Hood had no visible weaknesses at that range. Now people are wondering what happened. Perhaps it was the only place it could hit, and from precisely that angle, or perhaps it was a coincidence. There are many theories, but none are 100% certain.
            The reason for the Oslyabya's destruction is simple: it was shelled by half the Japanese squadron. Did this theory help?
            1. 0
              24 September 2025 17: 25
              1. The Hood's armor had numerous weaknesses, even by 1916 standards. One of the main ones was the narrow armor belt at the waterline. It was only 1,2 meters underwater. They tried to cover this up with an additional 76mm armor belt. I wonder what it could have protected against? The 1916 armor system didn't meet the requirements of the mid-30s.
              2. This reason also applies to the three Borodinos. However, in the case of Mikasa, it didn't work. It received about 30 large- and medium-caliber shells.
              1. +5
                24 September 2025 17: 52
                Quote: TermNachTER
                The Hood's armor had many weak points.

                But no one can depict the projectile's "clear" trajectory... request
                1. 0
                  25 September 2025 15: 03
                  Numerous possibilities have been floated, with four being the most likely. The shell either passed under the main gun turret (it's very narrow—2,7 meters) or over the main gun turret, and exploded in the main gun turret or the second gun turret.
                  1. +3
                    25 September 2025 17: 53
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    A lot of options have been voiced, four of the most realistic ones.

                    Yeah... But no one can depict the trajectory taking into account the target's angle like that.
                    The situation is exactly like with the Scharnhorst: Dulin and Garzke designed a hit on the glacis by plotting a trajectory from the beam, but given the relative positions of the ships and the target's angle, the shell misses the glacis entirely...
                    1. 0
                      25 September 2025 18: 55
                      When drawing up a battle maneuvering plan, there are almost always discrepancies. Even the British course plans differed during the Battle of La Plata, and the German ones even more so.
                      1. 0
                        25 September 2025 20: 14
                        I know... Thank you. :)
                      2. 0
                        25 September 2025 23: 05
                        What I'm getting at is that it could have been exactly as the Germans wrote. Since we don't have a German plot, and no one survived the Scharnhorst's bridge.
                      3. +1
                        26 September 2025 17: 32
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        What I mean is that it could have been the way the Germans wrote.

                        The Germans wrote about a torpedo hit...

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Since we don’t have a German gasket, and no one survived from the bridge of the Scharnhorst.

                        There are British schemes based on the Duke's Gunnery Plot.
                      4. 0
                        26 September 2025 18: 11
                        1. Regarding the torpedo hits, I've already expressed serious doubts. Incidentally, the video from the Scharnhorst didn't show any torpedo hits.
                        2. Unfortunately, the Dreyer stage on the Duke has a significant defect. The 15-pound rangefinder wasn't very effective at such distances. It was the rangefinder that fed the initial data into the stage. Therefore, the accuracy of the British plotting devices is questionable.
                      5. +1
                        26 September 2025 18: 39
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        By the way, the video from the Scharnhorst did not show any torpedo hits.

                        In the video shown by the British, one can only see some minor details.
                        Neither Ballard nor Cameron were with them...

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The 15-pounder rangefinder wasn't very good at those ranges.

                        Did you mean a 22-foot rangefinder? And a Type 284 radar...
                      6. 0
                        26 September 2025 18: 58
                        1. Torpedo holes are not trivial, they are hard to miss.
                        2. The first three "kings" had 15-footers, but I don't know about the last two.
                      7. +1
                        26 September 2025 19: 45
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Torpedo holes are not trivial and are hard to miss.

                        If the filming is going on normally... and not like the British.
                        From their video it is only clear that about 3 meters of the stern end were torn off.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The first three Kings had 15 footers.

                        Judging by the photos of the tests, the Duke was already equipped with 22-foot rangefinders.
                      8. 0
                        26 September 2025 20: 25
                        What I read from the British, as of 41, on all of them, on the control tower there was 15 feet, perhaps on the following ones it was 22.
                      9. +2
                        26 September 2025 20: 43
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        What I read from the English, as of 41

                        Are you missing the fact that the ships were modernized?
                      10. 0
                        26 September 2025 21: 24
                        They were modernized later. I don't know when they installed 22-foot radars on the "Georg" and "Duke," or if they even installed them. By 43, their radars were already quite serviceable.
        2. +4
          24 September 2025 16: 57
          I read the comment directly and respond to it. Read:
          Andrey continues to play the role of a historical astrologer, substituting some vague calculations for facts, who knows what and who knows why. There's very little real information about the situation on Oslyaba. Neither the number of hits, nor the caliber of the shells, nor the damage sustained to the sides and armored deck are known. It's impossible to even create a rough map of the flooded compartments. All the facts are taken from fragmentary testimony, often second- or third-hand, retold in the most general terms.

          With such initial conditions, relying on calculations of some kind of flooding and heeling moments is charlatanism.

          With all due respect, but this is not necessary.
          My opinion is, do with him whatever you want.
          1. -1
            24 September 2025 17: 31
            I completely agree with your opinion, especially since mine is the same) however, try to prove it to other))) enthusiastic connoisseurs)))
        3. The comment was deleted.
        4. The comment was deleted.
      2. -1
        24 September 2025 22: 12
        Quote: MCmaximus
        All that remains is to fit all possible versions of the facts into the picture. Even if they are equally probable, this still forms the picture.

        Exactly! First we come up with a picture, and then, with a bang, we crunch and smash, we adjust the facts to fit it. In other words, we enthusiastically fit an owl onto a globe.

        I am categorically against such approaches. negative
        1. +4
          25 September 2025 03: 11
          We just need to consider all the options. And this is one of them. I, for one, don't even intend to accept this version as the only one, let alone the correct one. It could have been.
          1. -3
            25 September 2025 08: 54
            Quote: MCmaximus
            We just need to consider all the options. And this is one of them. I, for one, don't even intend to accept this version as the only one, let alone the correct one.

            Can you formulate it—what version are we actually talking about? I didn't see any version at all in Andrey's articles, just a bunch of letters.
            1. +2
              25 September 2025 09: 17
              About the one we're reading about here. There might be 3 or 4 articles. There seems to be only one version.
              1. -1
                25 September 2025 21: 53
                Quote: MCmaximus
                About the one we're reading about here. There might be 3 or 4 articles. There seems to be only one version.

                I could also blurt out that Godzilla is to blame for everything! Accidentally awakened by intense gunfire. Can this be considered a theory?

                A theory is a well-founded claim based on facts and evidence. Andrey may have blurted it out, but instead of substantiating it, he's using this rigmarole of inflated figures pulled out of thin air. I'm aware that plenty of seemingly intelligent people read horoscopes and even sometimes listen to astrologers. However, I continue to consider astrology to be quackery, as are Andrey's similar articles. There's no need to deceive yourself or others; it's unseemly.
                1. -1
                  25 September 2025 23: 13
                  About Godzilla - this is a completely viable option))) no worse than Chelyabinsk.
    4. +5
      24 September 2025 19: 48
      Andrey continues to pretend to be an astrologer from history,

      The author published his version of events.
      If you disagree, please publish a rebuttal. We'd be happy to read it. Incidentally, Andrey, unlike many others, provides support for his work and is open to criticism.
      hi
      1. 0
        24 September 2025 22: 22
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        The author published his version of events.
        If you disagree, publish a refutation.

        Andrei has nothing to refute. He hasn't proven a single one of his thesis, only fabrications and assumptions. And a bunch of pseudo-scientific calculations, with a complete lack of sufficient initial data, are precisely designed to mask the lack of evidence.

        Astrologers were the first to come up with this approach. Try asking an astrologer where their predictions came from. You'll immediately get a bunch of tables and mathematical calculations. And what's the point of verifying all these calculations if they're based on patently bogus data? This has long been called quackery. hi
      2. +1
        3 November 2025 15: 29
        I would love to publish it, but the site owners have banned it)))
  6. +5
    24 September 2025 09: 24
    The reason for the Oslyabya's demise wasn't the quality of its construction, but its lack of stability. Based on the known data entered into the program, I constructed a static stability diagram for the Oslyabya. As they say, it's a picture in oils!
    1. +1
      24 September 2025 09: 44
      Where did this information come from? From the Oslyabya's commander's report or the chief engineer's?
      1. +5
        24 September 2025 09: 52
        For draft and maximum speed, see https://topwar.ru/258592-o-nepotopljaemosti-bronenosca-osljabja.html
        The rest is a theoretical drawing
        1. -1
          24 September 2025 09: 58
          I'm talking about the damage that led to the capsize. Incidentally, I've never seen any good drawings of the Peresvets. The ones from Melnikov's books and others are pretty mediocre.
          1. +3
            24 September 2025 10: 30
            Quote: TermNachTER
            I'm talking about the damage that led to the rollover.

            See https://topwar.ru/259199-kak-pogib-bronenosec-osljabja.html I indicated witnesses who saw hits or holes

            Quote: TermNachTER
            I have never seen good drawings of "Peresvets"

            The Russian State Archives of the Navy has a lot of stuff. It's a shame, of course, that there's no report drawing.
            If you are interested in something specific, I can help.
            1. 0
              24 September 2025 11: 01
              Witness accounts—both immediately at the scene and several days later—sometimes differ greatly. Witnesses from the Oslyabya described what they saw many days and weeks later. Not to mention that each person has their own, highly subjective, perception of what they saw. We don't have precise data on the damage to the Oslyabya, so we can only speculate and guess.
              1. +5
                24 September 2025 11: 07
                Quote: TermNachTER
                immediately at the scene of the incident and after a few days, sometimes differ greatly

                I agree to all 100%.
                I'm just now translating the testimony of the Ushakov crew, freshly rescued from the water, recorded aboard the Iwate. There's a lot of interesting information. For example, it turns out the Ushakov was traveling at 12 knots, but fell behind Nebogatov. What speed was Nebogatov traveling at that time? Clearly not the speed he later reported in his reports and testimony...
                1. 0
                  24 September 2025 11: 24
                  That's exactly what I'm saying. If we had the opportunity to see the holes and deformations of the ship's structures, caused by hits and explosions, in the Oslyabya's hull, we wouldn't really need witness testimony. Everything is visible. And people's words are a very shaky foundation.
                  1. +2
                    24 September 2025 14: 09
                    I fully support you. For the article https://topwar.ru/258592-o-nepotopljaemosti-bronenosca-osljabja.html, I drew a diagram of the Peresvet's damage based on photographs. And, I must say, the size and position of some of the holes were significantly different from the evidence.
                    1. 0
                      25 September 2025 15: 11
                      Kozma Prutkov: "If you see the word 'camel' on a tiger's cage, don't believe your eyes." There are equally interesting variations. All the books about the Retvizan say that the 152mm guns in the SK battery were separated by bulkheads; they even appear in the drawings. When the Japanese raised the Retvizan and prepared the drawings for repairs, the bulkheads were missing.
                      1. +1
                        25 September 2025 18: 00
                        The same applies to the Peresvets. I saw a document about these same bulkheads in the 75mm battery; the factory was asked not to install them. But the factory replied that they were already installed on the Peresvet. It's unclear whether they were removed from the Peresvet and installed on the Oslyabya.
                        There are drawings for the installation of Temperley booms for the Oslyabya, but they were never installed...
                2. +3
                  24 September 2025 18: 23
                  This speed of a wounded ship completely disproves the theory that the squadron's speed was only 9 knots. It's also hard to believe the Japanese claim of 16 knots. Oil heating hadn't yet been put into practical use. And you had to throw in coal and ash, too.
                  1. +6
                    24 September 2025 19: 54
                    Quote: MCmaximus
                    This speed of the wounded ship leaves no stone unturned regarding the version about the 9-knot speed of the squadron

                    Yes. Alexey "forgot" to tell you that speed in those days was often measured by engine RPM. This worked more or less well when the ship was in good condition (and even then, it produced varying speeds under different loads), but with combat damage...
                    Therefore, the Ushakovites' claims that the ship was maintaining 12 knots most likely indicate that it maintained the engine speed corresponding to 12 knots, but what was the ship's actual speed? It could have been 11 or 10 knots, or even less.
                    1. +5
                      24 September 2025 22: 05
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Therefore, the statements of the Ushakovites that the ship maintained 12 knots most likely indicate that it maintained the engine speed corresponding to 12 knots, but at what actual speed was the ship going?

                      A similar situation occurred at Jutland with Von der Tann.
                      Zenker noted this in his report (by that time, the Tann had taken in about 600 tons of water through the breach):
                      8:08 PM. Course SSW. The ship is making 26 knots, but is traveling at 23 knots.
                    2. +1
                      24 September 2025 22: 12
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      he kept the engine speed at 12 knots

                      Absolutely not. During the same interrogation, the Ushakovites stated that the engines were in good condition. This means the reason they couldn't reach speeds above 12 knots was due to something else: the flooding of the bow.

                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      very often measured by the revolutions of the cars

                      But don't forget that all ships had a mechanical lag.
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      It could have been 11 or 10 knots, or even less.

                      Andrey, don't take Russian officers for idiots who are incapable of determining the speed of their ship.
                      1. +2
                        25 September 2025 06: 29
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Not at all like that.

                        You write and repeat my thesis
                        Quote: rytik32
                        This means that the reason why we couldn’t reach a speed of more than 12 knots is different: the flooding of the bow.

                        How's that?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        But don't forget that all ships had a mechanical lag.

                        Which was used occasionally. There's some suspicion that on the night after the battle, accurately measuring speed was the last thing on Ushakov's officers' minds.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Andrey, don't take Russian officers for idiots who are incapable of determining the speed of their ship.

                        But that wasn't their goal. Keeping up with the squadron, that was their goal.
                      2. +3
                        25 September 2025 09: 29
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Which was used occasionally

                        This is something new!

                        I'll give you an educational program.
                        Revolutions were used to determine the speed at the current moment.
                        Over long periods, a log was already used. Miles traveled were recorded using the log, not by rev counting. And at least once a day (weather permitting), the navigator made astronomical observations.
                      3. 0
                        25 September 2025 12: 13
                        Quote: rytik32
                        We have already used the lag for a long period of time.

                        Alexey, do you understand how a mechanical lag works?
                      4. +2
                        25 September 2025 12: 35
                        Of course I understand. Log readings were often even recorded in the logbooks.
                      5. +1
                        25 September 2025 14: 19
                        How do you think it worked? :) The log was constantly kept outside the ship, and a special log sailor was assigned to it, recording its readings every minute? Is that how it works?
                      6. +2
                        25 September 2025 15: 22
                        Here's the log dial. It showed the ship's mileage.
                      7. +3
                        25 September 2025 20: 01
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Here's the log dial. It showed the ship's mileage.

                        Clear.
                        Alexey, back then, they didn't yet know how to attach a log to a ship's hull; it had to be dropped. And lowering it into the water was quite a challenge, as several conditions had to be met to prevent it from getting caught in the wake and becoming distorted. Furthermore, the remarkable dial you showed was located on the stern, so if an officer wanted to check the speed, he'd have to send sailors to it. The first electrical transmission from the log to the wheelhouse was installed in 1900 and clearly didn't make it to the Ushakov.
                        But even if it had hit, no one in battle would have bothered dragging a rope tens of meters long behind the stern of a ship that also had to perform sharp maneuvers.
                      8. +2
                        25 September 2025 22: 17
                        Andrey, no one took the log out of the water. Readings were taken every watch; see the logbook requirements. Even during the battle. The data is in the Poltava's logbook for the battle in the logbook.
                      9. +2
                        26 September 2025 08: 51
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Andrey, no one took the log out of the water.

                        Of course it did - it needs maintenance.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Readings were taken every watch, see the requirements for keeping a watch log

                        I was just watching and saw how they were filming. (VZ Anadyr, attached)
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The data is in the Poltava military history for the time of the battle in the ZhM.

                        I don’t have a residence permit for Poltava, but I have a strong suspicion that:
                        1) Or this is an isolated case.
                        2) Or the VZ data is not based on the log, but on other data. Actually, the VZ does have a "Number of miles traveled" column, but what it's based on is another question.
                        A good example of how lag in combat was rested is, for example, in the Aurora's VZ
                        And yes, the log was used to determine (according to the VZh requirements) the number of miles traveled; there are no requirements for speed measurements. Therefore, it's not always possible to determine a ship's speed from the VZh records.
                      10. +1
                        26 September 2025 22: 31
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I was just watching and saw how they were filming. (VZ Anadyr, attached)

                        What does "Anadyr" have to do with it? "Oleg" was filming every hour, see the screenshot.
                        It was you who claimed that the lag had to be removed to take readings, not me...


                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Or the data entered into the VZh is not based on the lag

                        It says that these are the lag readings.
                        Therefore, it is not always possible to determine the speed of a ship from the records of the VZh.

                        But according to the log and the ship's clock, it is possible
                      11. +1
                        27 September 2025 12: 33
                        Quote: rytik32
                        What does "Anadyr" have to do with this?

                        Why not?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        "Oleg" was filming every hour, see screenshot,

                        That's what I've always liked about you: you only show what confirms your version of events. And you gloss over anything that contradicts it. For the sake of clarity, no doubt.
                        Because Oleg has no lag control in battle. Here are the recordings before and after noon.
                      12. +1
                        27 September 2025 12: 59
                        You only show what confirms your version of events. Anything that contradicts it is glossed over.

                        The screenshots provided do not in any way refute my theory. Just because the log readings weren't recorded in the logbook doesn't mean they couldn't have been observed.
                        But your version that the lag is very difficult to observe, so the speed was calculated based on revolutions, is completely refuted by hourly recordings of the lag readings.
                      13. +2
                        27 September 2025 13: 33
                        Quote: rytik32
                        If the log readings are not recorded in the logbook, this does not mean that these readings could not be observed.

                        Of course you can. You just have to give up lag to do that. :))))
                        Quote: rytik32
                        But your version that the lag is very difficult to observe, so the speed was calculated based on revolutions, is completely refuted by hourly recordings of the lag readings.

                        Unfortunately, there was no lag in the battle, which I demonstrated. So your forgery failed.
                      14. 0
                        27 September 2025 14: 07
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But for this I had to abandon the lag:))))

                        What prevented you from quitting lag?
                        The same "Anadyr" on May 14 at 19-30 wrote in the VZh: Lowered the mechanical log, countdown 29

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        but there was no lag in the battle

                        And what does this have to do with the topic of the dispute? The Ushakov couldn't reach more than 12 knots. after fight!

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        So your forgery failed.

                        Well, your change of topic was a success )))
                      15. +2
                        27 September 2025 14: 36
                        Quote: rytik32

                        What prevented you from quitting lag?

                        Wrong question. The correct one is: was Ushakov's speed measured by the log?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The same "Anadyr" on May 14 at 19-30 wrote in the VZh: Lowered the mechanical log, countdown 29

                        Well, that means you did know that it might not be used in combat.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        And what does this have to do with the topic of the dispute? The Ushakov couldn't reach speeds above 12 knots after the battle!

                        In your head, it's dated as after the battle. But for Ushakov's officers, the battle continued, and there was a threat of destroyer attacks.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Well, your change of topic was a success )))

                        Alexey, I know you don't admit you're wrong. So I don't see the point in continuing.
                      16. 0
                        27 September 2025 14: 48
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Correct - was Ushakov's speed measured by lag?

                        The question is also wrong!
                        In the original, 12 knots appear twice, which rules out a typo.
                        The context is this:
                        During the battle on the 27th, two large shells struck the bow near the waterline, but the flooding was stopped thanks to urgent measures. As a result, the ship's speed dropped to 12 knots.
                        It is clear that we are not talking about speed calculated based on the car's revolutions.
                        You'll soon be able to read the second context on my LiveJournal. I plan to publish excerpts from the Iwate and Yakumo databases regarding the fight with Ushakov. There will be a lot of new and interesting information for you.
                        there was a threat of destroyer attacks

                        So, there was no threat to Anadyr?
                      17. +1
                        27 September 2025 15: 28
                        Quote: rytik32
                        In the original, 12 knots appear twice, which rules out a typo.

                        Nobody talks about the typo
                        Quote: rytik32
                        It is clear that we are not talking about speed calculated based on the car's revolutions.

                        It's completely unclear.
                      18. 0
                        27 September 2025 15: 34
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It's completely unclear

                        The damage to the nose is not related to the vehicle's speed.
                      19. +3
                        27 September 2025 18: 54
                        Quote: rytik32

                        The damage to the nose is not related to the vehicle's speed.

                        Brilliant! Naturally, they're not related. It's just that the speed will be lower at the same RPM.
                      20. 0
                        27 September 2025 22: 15
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It's just that the speed at the same RPM will be lower.

                        So how did the Ushakovites understand that the speed had dropped to exactly 12 knots, and not to 10 or 8, for example?
                      21. +2
                        27 September 2025 23: 32
                        Quote: rytik32
                        So how did the Ushakovites understand that the speed had dropped to exactly 12 knots, and not to 10 or 8, for example?

                        Comparing the engine speeds needed to maintain formation with squadron speed. That is, approximately
                      22. 0
                        28 September 2025 00: 26
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Comparing the revolutions of the machines that were needed to maintain formation with squadron speed.

                        So "Ushakov" was unable to stay in the line:
                        After the entire detachment of the remaining ships had turned to NО 23°, it soon became clear that the Admiral Ushakov, despite full speed, had begun to lag behind and was successively overtaken by the Admiral Senyavin and General-Admiral Graf Apraksin, which were behind.
                        It was at this moment that it became clear that he couldn’t get more than 12 knots even at full speed.
                    3. +2
                      25 September 2025 03: 08
                      Did the Japanese measure their speeds using GPS? Using the same rpm. And they floated on the water just the same. But in any case, actual speed is needed for plotting. Therefore, the rpm speed should be 100% corrected for the actual speed. Rpm is simply a convenient expression of speed. But navigators won't show rpm on a map. They will always correct any discrepancies and derive a correspondence between speed and rpm.
                      Let me say right away that I don't know how the navigators' work was organized back then. But I'm 1000% (not even 100%) sure that a navigator wouldn't blindly trust some kind of RPM. BC-1 is now number one precisely because the most important thing on a ship is to sail where you need to and know where you are at all times.
                      1. +3
                        25 September 2025 06: 31
                        Quote: MCmaximus
                        But the fact that the navigator won't blindly trust some revolutions is 1000%

                        In a normal case, the RPMs provide normal accuracy. But the night after a battle is an atypical case.
                      2. +1
                        25 September 2025 07: 44
                        It was pointed out to me that, based on the underwater hull's fouling, the RPM readings don't correspond to the actual speed. That's why I'm writing here that a navigator should always plot accordingly. Time, course, and speed are sacred. If they're not accurate, there's nothing to talk about at sea.
                      3. +1
                        25 September 2025 08: 14
                        Quote: MCmaximus
                        Here they noticed to me that, based on the results of the fouling of the underwater part of the hull, the speed in revolutions does not correspond to the actual one.

                        I wrote to you
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        This worked more or less normally when the ship was in good condition (and even then it gave different speeds under different loads)

                        On the night after the battle, under conditions of destroyer attacks
                        Quote: MCmaximus
                        Time, course and speed are sacred

                        It is no longer always possible
                      4. 0
                        25 September 2025 08: 39
                        I once flew our An-12 for work. The flight engineer had all the calculations for load, fuel consumption, speed, and range in his notebook. If the 2TOE navigators didn't have such data, they weren't worth a dime. Nevertheless, in those days, ships sailed to and from the Far East as if they were home. In squadrons and individually. And there was always enough fuel, and they didn't get lost. Besides, a navigation textbook is a thick thing, and there are countless formulas in it. They can even calculate 2 x 2 = 5 with a slide rule.
                  2. +4
                    24 September 2025 22: 14
                    Quote: MCmaximus
                    This speed of the wounded ship leaves no stone unturned about the version about the 9-knot speed of the squadron being the only possible one.

                    That's right!
                    Both the Emerald's logbook and Fersen's telegram stated the detachment's speed at night was 14 knots.
            2. +2
              25 September 2025 15: 06
              We cops have a joke: "Lies like an eyewitness." No one took notes—the locations and sizes of the holes were determined by eye. Each person has their own subjective perception of reality. One thinks the hole is as big as a barn door, another thinks it's just a hole in the paneling.
    2. 0
      24 September 2025 16: 59
      10 degrees is easy to achieve with free water and turning.
      1. -1
        25 September 2025 22: 04
        Quote: MCmaximus
        10 degrees is easy to achieve with free water and turning.

        As I've written several times already, Oslyabya simply flipped over on a sudden turn like an overloaded truck.
    3. +1
      24 September 2025 17: 17
      Sunset angle less than 15 degrees?!?!?
      This raises questions, the first two at a glance:
      1. Have you checked the empty and loaded state of the application? Are there any errors?
      2. What method was used to calculate the static stability levers? Was it an approximation (a quick solution that often produces huge errors)?
      1. +1
        24 September 2025 17: 36
        Quote: adena
        Sunset angle less than 15 degrees?!?!?

        The Borodino people didn't have much more.

        Quote: adena
        The empty and loaded state of the applicators were compared

        Let me remind you, this is an armadillo.
        Quote: adena
        What method of calculating static stability shoulders was used?

        Vlasov-Blagoveshchensky approximate formula and Podzyunin formulas
        1. 0
          24 September 2025 17: 53
          So, approximation. It's not good, but of course, fundamentally better than nothing.
      2. +1
        24 September 2025 17: 47
        Diagram for Borodinians with water on deck, by Muru
        1. +1
          24 September 2025 17: 51
          In the data you provided, sunset angles of approximately 15 degrees are given for the damaged ship. Please review it more closely and pay attention to the explanations.
          1. 0
            24 September 2025 22: 03
            There's also a diagram for an undamaged ship. It can be found in the same works by Muru, posted online.
            1. +1
              24 September 2025 23: 33
              In the diagram you posted, number 1—the static stability diagram for an undamaged ship (the Borodino-class nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine)—its slope angle is much greater than 15 degrees. It's normal! You provided a static stability diagram for the undamaged Oslyabya nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine with a slope angle of less than 15 degrees, and postulated that this is normal, "the Borodino-class ships have the same." This is not true, based on your own data. A ship with a slope angle of 15 degrees has a long and happy life no longer than the Swedish navy ship Vasa. Your DSO calculations for the Oslyabya nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine are, to put it mildly, flawed.
              1. +1
                24 September 2025 23: 52
                Quote: adena
                Your calculations of the DSO for the EBR "Oslyabya" are, to put it mildly, erroneous.

                I don't rule out a mistake. Please provide your calculations.

                Quote: adena
                A ship with a 15 degree angle of incidence lives a long and happy life no longer than the Swedish navy ship "Vasa"

                Quote: adena
                "The Borodinites have the same thing," that's not true, based on your own data.

                If you haven't found the data for the undamaged Borodinites, I'll post it.
                Near Madagascar they had a sunset angle of 13-14 degrees and did not capsize.
              2. +2
                25 September 2025 07: 03
                Quote: adena
                It was YOU who provided the static stability diagram for the undamaged Oslyabya EBM with a slope angle of less than 15 degrees.

                I'm wondering how Alexey will explain why the Oslyabya didn't capsize during the storm at the Cape of Good Hope - there, according to eyewitnesses, its list reached 20 degrees.
    4. +3
      24 September 2025 19: 15
      Quote: rytik32
      The reason for the death of the Oslyabya was not the quality of its construction, but its lack of stability.

      It's the same as saying: "A man died from falling off a cliff, and not because three mafiosi threw him off."
      The fact that Oslyabya lacked stability at the moment of its death is self-evident - it actually capsized:))) Your calculation here is completely unnecessary.
      I answered the question - why did it become less stable? :)
      1. 0
        24 September 2025 22: 05
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Oslyabya at the moment of death

        So here is the diagram at the moment of entering the battle, and not at the moment of death.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Your calculation here is completely unnecessary.

        Calculations show that with such stability, there was nothing to be gained in battle. The outcome was entirely predictable.
        1. +2
          25 September 2025 06: 38
          Quote: rytik32
          Calculations show that with such stability there was nothing to catch in battle.

          Throw away your calculation
          The longest and highest-sided ship, the Oslyabya, is tossing at a rate of 20 degrees, while simultaneously being subjected to severe pitching.
          1. +1
            25 September 2025 11: 06
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Throw away your calculation

            Where did you find the contradiction?
            "It rolls about 20 degrees" means a list of about 10 degrees to each side.
            In addition, the ship's parameters at the time of the storm, namely its draft, are unknown.
            1. +2
              25 September 2025 12: 16
              Quote: rytik32
              "It rolls about 20 degrees" means a list of about 10 degrees to each side.

              That's yours. Kostenko's is a little different.
              Having identified the wave elements, I began observing the ship's behavior. The Oryol didn't exhibit a regular roll with a steady period, and only made single, rapidly damped swings that never exceeded 6° per side. The other battleships of the Suvorov class behaved similarly.
              At the same time, the cruisers with straight sides were a sight to behold. The Aurora rolled especially violently, swinging from side to side and back again with the precision of a pendulum seven times per minute. Moreover, by monitoring the tilt of her masts relative to the horizon, one could see that she deviated from the vertical by 40–45°, frequently taking on water through the side nets onto the upper deck. The older Nakhimov and Donskoy rolled somewhat less: these shorter ships rolled up to 30° to the side. The longest and highest-sided ship, the Oslyabya, rolled by 20 degrees, simultaneously experiencing severe pitching. All the transports exhibited a regular pitching motion, similar to that of the older cruisers.

              And he goes on to explain:
              I wanted to find an explanation for why the roll of the four new Borodino-class battleships differed so dramatically from all the other ships in the squadron, including the battleship Oslyabya, which had similar displacement and stability. This couldn't be attributed to the influence of a lower metacentric height, as the Oslyabya and all the cruisers had the same roll rate, approaching seven per minute, and their metacentric height, under heavy overload, ranged from 2,5 to 3 feet. The only explanation for this difference in roll was to be sought not in the load and stability, but in the influence of the freeboard shape.
  7. +1
    24 September 2025 10: 15
    Good afternoon.
    Dear Andrey, thank you for the interesting series of articles.
    I'll add a bit: during that period, as well as later, so-called "manuals" existed for compiling specifications, designing, and evaluating the combat qualities of ships. These stated that the "armor box" (or "shell") was the foundation of a ship's stability, specifically for battleships. Anything above it is secondary protection and cannot significantly affect the ship's stability. Furthermore, the volume of the "shell box" must conform to certain values. If these rules were followed, the ship should not lose stability. Therefore, it can be assumed that there were calculation errors during the design or the quality of construction was substandard. It is impossible to give a definitive answer.
    The fact that Pobeda and Peresvet survived the battle with the Japanese squadron precludes the conclusion that these ships were fully capable of being used in a squadron battle. The combat conditions were too different.
    1. +3
      24 September 2025 20: 09
      Quote: 27091965i
      If these rules were followed, the ship should not lose stability.

      Exactly
      Quote: 27091965i
      Therefore, it can be assumed that there were calculation errors during the design or that the quality of construction did not meet requirements. It is impossible to give a definitive answer.

      Everything is simple here - you specify it yourself
      Quote: 27091965i
      They indicate that the basis for the stability of ships is the "armor box", this applies to battleships.

      The problem with the Oslyabya was that the water got right into this very "armor box" - if there had not been flooding below the armored deck in the bow, the ship would not have sunk to the hawse holes and would not have capsized from the relatively small amount of water taken into the coal pit area.
    2. +1
      29 September 2025 22: 31
      Good afternoon. I don't think the Peresvet-class is inferior to the Japanese armored cruisers, and they survived the Battle of Tsushima.
      1. 0
        30 September 2025 12: 45
        Quote: Maxim G
        I don't think the Peresvet class is worse than the Japanese armored cruisers, and they survived the Battle of Tsushima.


        Good afternoon, I don't think the Peresvet class is inferior to Japanese armored cruisers, but in this matter we should consider the opinion of that period of time, and not try to reason with modern views.

        " Since a first-class battleship has the displacement necessary to carry large-caliber guns and armor to match, it must be recognized that a second-class battleship will only have artillery ineffective against first-class battleships and armor that can be penetrated by large-caliber shells. Second-class battleships cannot participate in a battle as the main force of a squadron in which first-class ships are participating, which could destroy them without fear of their shells. Second-class battleships, however, can participate in a squadron battle as an additional fire support detachment for the main forces. When designing such ships, it is necessary to provide for a gun arrangement that will allow these ships to deliver artillery fire at maximum range, even at unfavorable angles, with as many guns as possible.. "Ministère de la Marine 1894

        In principle, everything is clear.
  8. +5
    24 September 2025 17: 03
    "The list reached 7-8 degrees, and the battleship remained in this position, and no urge was noticed to either straighten up or to list further until the rudder was pulled back; then the battleship again began to roll in the opposite direction and again reached a list of 7-8 degrees."

    The classic description of a vessel is not simply one with a low initial metacentric height (IMH), but one with a NEGATIVE IH (initial metacentric height). In this case, the dynamic stability diagram has a discontinuity as a result of the negative IH.
    1. 0
      24 September 2025 17: 34
      Well, if you consider that the Oslyabya left the factory overloaded, somewhere around 800 tons, compared to the design, and even before the battle it was loaded to the maximum, then it is quite possible.
  9. +4
    24 September 2025 20: 26
    I read some of my colleagues' comments... They made me smile. I won't respond to everyone one by one; I'll just respond to Alexey Rytik, Nikolay Terminakhter, and a few others here.
    It's not simple, it's very simple. There are two simple theses (actually, facts, but let's call it a thesis):
    1) The battleship could not have sunk to the hawse holes if not for the significant flooding of the forward compartments below the living deck. And she did, as numerous eyewitnesses noted, and their testimony is completely impossible to ignore.
    2) Due to point 1, the list that led to the capsizing of the Oslyabya required a relatively small amount of water, which could have been supplied by a single hit.
    There were no reasonable objections to these theses. And all the discussions on the topic
    Quote: TermNachTER
    there are no good drawings.

    Quote: TermNachTER
    Witnesses' explanations given immediately at the scene of the incident and some time later sometimes differ greatly.

    Quote: rytik32
    guesswork even where there is precise information, for example about the size of coal pits.

    (Does it really matter what size they are if they and the rooms adjacent to them could be flooded?)
    etc. - this, excuse me, is for the benefit of the poor.
    1. 0
      24 September 2025 22: 30
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      The battleship could not have sunk to the hawse holes if it had not been for the significant flooding of the forward compartments below the living deck.

      The water mass in question could have accumulated on the gun deck and upper deck. You were never able to refute this theory.

      Due to point 1, the list that led to the capsizing of the Oslyabya required a relatively small amount of water, which could have been supplied by a single hit.

      The Oslyabya capsized after water began pouring through the 75mm gun ports. And not immediately, but after 10-15 minutes.
      What does one single hit have to do with it?
      could it have flooded both them and the adjacent rooms?

      It couldn't have happened! Why did water spill through the watertight bulkheads?
      You still haven't been able to prove that the quality of construction of the Oslyabya was poor.
      1. +2
        25 September 2025 06: 45
        Quote: rytik32
        The required weight of water could have formed on the battery and upper decks

        I couldn't physically. It's impossible.
        Quote: rytik32
        You still haven't been able to refute this version.

        On the contrary, it was you who failed to substantiate it.
        Quote: rytik32
        The Oslyabya capsized after water began pouring through the 75mm gun ports. And not immediately, but after 10-15 minutes.
        What does one single hit have to do with it?

        Moreover, it was this that brought Oslyabya to the arena, where water began to flow into the gun ports.
        Quote: rytik32
        It couldn't have happened! Why did water spill through the watertight bulkheads?

        Why did it leak through the watertight bulkhead between compartments 1 and 2? Why did it leak through the theoretically watertight slope? How did it end up in the hold? (The theory of a special water drain there, similar to the Aurora, which suffered shrapnel damage, is not suggested.) Damage to the side is not suggested.
        1. 0
          25 September 2025 09: 39
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          I couldn't physically. It's impossible.

          You haven't provided a single coherent argument.

          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          It was you who failed to substantiate it.

          I justified this with the example of "Eagle"
          water began to flow into the gun ports

          Water began to flow into the circulation ports after the steering was damaged.
          That is, the reason is that the conning tower was hit.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Why did it spill through the watertight bulkhead between compartments 1 and 2?

          The door was damaged.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Why did it pour through the theoretically waterproof slope?

          There is no direct evidence.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          How did she end up in the hold?

          Someone lowered the water into the hold and began pumping it out, just like Zavarin did.

          In total - not a single fact, but only your speculation.
          1. +2
            25 September 2025 13: 07
            Quote: rytik32
            You haven't provided a single coherent argument.

            Alexey, you haven’t provided a single clear argument regarding the presence of 200 tons of water on deck.
            You just remembered the "Eagle", which had no trim and no list, but instead had intensive fire suppression and water drainage onto the deck:)))
            So you don't care that there's no way they could have poured so much water on the Oslyaba to extinguish the fires in the forecastle. You ignore that the Oslyaba's deck wasn't level, but rather inclined, and that your calculations are completely meaningless, since you simply calculated the volume as the deck area times the coaming height, while the water should have drained through the same damage it entered through. You also ignore that not a single eyewitness mentions a layer of water on the decks above the living deck on the Oslyaba before its failure, while there is evidence of water below the living deck.
            Therefore, there is no way to take your remark seriously.
            Quote: rytik32
            Water began to flow into the circulation ports after the steering was damaged.

            It's not that this statement is extremely dubious (in that case, Oslyabya would never have exited the turn). It's not even that it contradicts your own calculations—if Oslyabya rolled less than 15 degrees intact, there's no way it could have exited the turn damaged. The point is, we're discussing how it acquired the list it had before the turn.
            Quote: rytik32
            The door was damaged.

            And the bevels and bulkheads in the area of ​​the 10th corner, of course, were made of charmed adamantium and could not have been damaged in any way.
            Quote: rytik32
            There is no direct evidence.

            Besides the fact that we had to pump out water from the holds in the area of ​​the 1st and 2nd boiler rooms. And it came from somewhere there.
            Quote: rytik32
            Someone lowered the water into the hold and began pumping it out, just like Zavarin did.

            The whole point is that Zavarin first shut off the main water supply to the compartment and only then began draining the water into the hold. In this case, the breach hadn't been sealed, and draining the water into the hold was completely unnecessary.
            Quote: rytik32
            In total - not a single fact, but only your speculation.

            No. These are your conjectures. And they often contradict your own statements.
            1. +1
              25 September 2025 14: 01
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              and had no list

              The list on the Orel reached 10 degrees.
              while the water had to drain through the same damage through which it got there

              Why didn't the water flow back out through the hole in the living deck, but accumulate on the deck?
              if Oslyabya overturned by less than 15 degrees

              At the moment of failure, the stability diagram was completely different. You're the one who doesn't take changes into account and always assumes the same moment...
              and there's no way they could have been damaged

              They could have. But that's just a theory, not a confirmed fact. Similarly, the side corridors could have been flooded by nearby explosions, while the coal pits were dry...
              There are so many options! You claim, without any evidence, that it couldn't have been any other way.

              And she came from somewhere there.

              They lowered it for pumping. I've given many examples of water being deliberately released into the hold.
              Makarov even has an order on this topic: to make devices for draining water from the compartments.
              Zavarin

              Zavarin writes that the water continued to rise, so there's no connection with the presence or absence of water access.
              1. +1
                25 September 2025 14: 17
                Quote: rytik32
                The list on the Orel reached 10 degrees.

                At the moment, it was not constant.
                Quote: rytik32
                Why didn't the water flow back out through the hole in the living deck, but accumulate on the deck?

                Who said it didn't leak? Of course it did—after all, the connection to the sea was direct once a certain trim was reached. Another issue is that it would have been quite difficult to factor this into the calculations. But here's the thing: if it had been factored in, then, say, minus 50 tons on the living deck would have become plus 50 tons in the compartments below the living deck.
                Quote: rytik32
                At the moment of failure, the stability diagram was completely different.

                So, after sustaining combat damage, Oslyabya's stability increased? Oh, how many wondrous discoveries await us...
                Quote: rytik32
                They could. But this is a version, not a confirmed fact.

                Yes, that's the theory. It's indirectly confirmed by the presence of water in the hold. But your theories have no evidence at all—except for the 16th hole. I agree, there's plenty to discuss.
                Quote: rytik32
                You claim without evidence that it couldn’t have been any other way.

                Incorrect. I don't undertake to "debunk myths" like you; unlike you, I've explicitly stated that I have a version of events. But it's a possible version, internally consistent, and doesn't require overly broad assumptions, unlike what you've written.
                Quote: rytik32
                They lowered it for pumping. I've given many examples of water being deliberately released into the hold.

                You cited the Aurora's example, and it's inappropriate. You cited Zavarin's example, and it's also inappropriate. Simply because every action must have a purpose. The Aurora's purpose was to prevent water from accumulating in the compartments, which is reasonable, since the influx wasn't particularly intense. Zavarin drained the water after he thought he'd eliminated the main cause of the flooding.
                That is, draining water into the hold only makes sense when you can remove it from the damaged compartment faster than it's pouring in and pump it out faster, or just as fast, as it's coming in. But in our case, that wasn't the case—which is perfectly clear from the officers' intentions, who were planning to perform additional counter-flooding, which would have been unnecessary if they had been relying on turbines.
                Quote: rytik32
                Zavarin writes that the water continued to rise.

                Which he obviously didn't expect.
                1. +1
                  25 September 2025 15: 30
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  But the version is possible, internally consistent and does not require too broad assumptions, unlike what you wrote.

                  Your version of getting into the 10th coal pit is absolutely fantastic.
                  I repeat again.
                  1. Not a single 12-inch armor-piercing shell was fired at the Oslyaba.
                  2. Penetration of armor with rupture is unlikely.
                  3. The slab coming off is incredible.
                  4. The absence of damage to the internal bulkhead is impossible in the event of a rupture of such force that the plate would be torn off.

                  Simply because every action must have meaning.

                  The point was to seal the hole. People couldn't have entered without going through the lower pit. This meant the passages were open, and the water was flowing through them.
                  And this water had to be pumped out somehow.
                  1. +1
                    25 September 2025 20: 14
                    Quote: rytik32
                    Your version of getting into the 10th coal pit is absolutely fantastic.
                    I repeat again.

                    No matter how much you say "halva"
                    Quote: rytik32
                    1. Not a single 12-inch armor-piercing shell was fired at the Oslyaba.

                    BB just wouldn't have knocked out the slab.
                    Quote: rytik32
                    2. Penetration of armor with rupture is unlikely.

                    Which is why it happened, let's say, very infrequently. At this range, a 12-inch shell should have easily penetrated a 102-mm thick uncemented plate; the problem was a faulty fuse and an undetonated shimoza—and the likelihood of all of that was significantly different from zero.
                    Quote: rytik32
                    3. The slab coming off is incredible.

                    A bunch of RIF officers considered the slab's separation likely. I cited examples of later shootings where the slab's dislocation did occur. And yet you continue to claim that this could never have happened.
                    Quote: rytik32
                    4. The absence of damage to the internal bulkhead is impossible in the event of a rupture of such force that the plate would be torn off.

                    You probably wanted to write something else.
                    Quote: rytik32
                    The point is to carry out work to seal the hole

                    Let's say
                    Quote: rytik32
                    People would not have been able to enter otherwise than through the lower pit.

                    Why would they? Did our battleships load their upper coal pits through their lower ones? :))))
                    1. 0
                      25 September 2025 22: 26
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      BB just wouldn't have knocked out the slab

                      Even a high-explosive shell wouldn't have knocked it out. There were dozens of hits, but nothing even close to that.

                      when the slab turning happened

                      More powerful shells, and even then, only twisting, not tearing. There was never any tearing.
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      You probably wanted to write something else.

                      It couldn't have happened that a 102mm plate was torn out and the thin bulkhead was not damaged.
                      Were the upper coal pits loaded through the lower ones?

                      Through the feed pipes, from above. And the feed pipes exited onto the cuts, onto the upper deck.
                      1. +1
                        26 September 2025 09: 11
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Even a high-explosive shell wouldn't have knocked it out. There were dozens of hits, but nothing even close to that.

                        If my sclerosis doesn't lie to me, then in the battle in ZhM there were as many as three such hits (10-12 inch shell into non-cemented armor 102 mm and below) - in one case the 102 withstood the blow, in another - a clean penetration was observed, in the third the 51 mm armor did not fall apart, but the Retvizan's bow was heavily flooded with water.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        More powerful projectiles

                        On much more powerful armor
                        Quote: rytik32
                        and then, only turning inside out, not tearing off.

                        the same thing could have happened here, the sea did the rest
                        Quote: rytik32
                        It couldn't have happened that a 102mm plate was torn out and the thin bulkhead was not damaged.

                        But it did happen. In the case I described of the shooting at Chesma, the armor plate was torn out, but the internal bulkheads remained intact.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Through the feed pipes, from above.

                        Here I am about the same
                      2. 0
                        26 September 2025 23: 02
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        as many as three

                        Clearly more. At least another Peresvet. And the Oslyabya's upper chord plate was cemented!

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        but the bow of the Retvizan was heavily flooded with water

                        Here's a photo: https://samlib.ru/img/h/harlamow_i_b/wattleforulliotics/5914602157379.jpg

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        On much more powerful armor

                        With a flimsy mount...

                        the sea did the rest

                        If the armor plate is pressed in, what will the sea do???

                        the armor plate was torn out, but the internal bulkheads remained intact

                        The turning is inward! And the explosion is on the outside, that's why the bulkhead is intact. Yours is a completely different theory.
                        Here I am about the same

                        There is no way to supply shields through these pipes...
                      3. +1
                        27 September 2025 12: 28
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Clearly more. At least "Peresvet" too.

                        Once again – one in Retvizan, one in Pobeda, and one in Peresvet. So where are the dozens of hits?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        With a flimsy mount...

                        So, the Oslyabya with its defective armor had it better?:))) Hmm.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        If the armor plate is pressed in, what will the sea do???

                        Take another look at the photo I posted in the last article. The slab has literally been pulled out, and it's hanging by its bare bones and the thin sheathing. Or maybe it's not hanging at all; it's unclear.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The turning is inward! And the explosion is on the outside, that's why the bulkhead is intact. Yours is a completely different theory.

                        I'm considering all sorts of versions - either an explosion inside, or when the armor was penetrated, or I still don't rule out an analogy with the shot at Chesma.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        There is no way to supply shields through these pipes...

                        You can provide the bars.
                      4. +1
                        27 September 2025 12: 44
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        So where are the dozens of hits?:)))

                        Include hits on thicker armor in the sample and you get dozens

                        So, the Oslyabya, with its defective armor, had better armor? :))

                        Behind the plate is a wooden lining, behind the lining is a double-layer steel plating, and behind that is a side corridor and another bulkhead. Therefore, cracked or dented armor will not cause flooding.

                        IMHO, an 8-inch armor-piercing shell, most likely from the Izumo, hit the 10th pit. Either it penetrated without exploding and lodged in the corner or on the slope. Or it exploded on impact and knocked out the shell plug, which penetrated the side and the bulkhead between the side corridor and the pit.

                        Take another look at the photo I posted in the last article. The slab has literally been pulled out, and it's hanging by its bare bones and thin sheathing. Or maybe it's not hanging at all, it's unclear.

                        The reason it "pulled out" was because of the flimsy fastening. The Oslyabya has a more robust design. And the beams support the slab from the inside—it's not so easy to push it in.
                        Below is a photo of the Orel hit, to refute the idea that "the water will tear it off later." The slab cracked and was heavily dented, but it showed no signs of falling off.
                        And this is an armor-piercing projectile, as can be seen from the trace left by the warhead.
                      5. 0
                        27 September 2025 13: 39
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Include hits on thicker armor in the sample and you get dozens

                        Why should I include them? I'm considering a hit on a relatively light 102mm armor plate, so why should I also consider 152-229mm of cemented armor? Don't you understand that these are quite different?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Behind the plate is a wooden lining, behind the lining is a double-layer steel plating, and behind that is a side corridor and another bulkhead. Therefore, cracked or dented armor will not cause flooding.

                        Tell Peresvet, which had a bent slab and significant flooding, about this discovery of yours.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The reason it "pulled out" was because of the flimsy mount. The Oslyabya has a more reliable design.

                        More reliable than dreadnoughts? Alexey, you've outdone yourself.
                      6. 0
                        27 September 2025 13: 54
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        into a relatively light armor plate

                        Light - how many tons is that?

                        and decent flooding

                        The flooding was limited to the ship's side corridors and posed no danger. Why do you consider it acceptable?


                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        More reliable than on dreadnoughts?


                        1. Was there a wood underlayment under the slab?
                        2. Is the steel plating of the side made in two layers?
                        3. Did the beams support the armor?
                        For "Oslyabya," the answer to all three questions is "yes." What about the example you gave?
                      7. +1
                        27 September 2025 14: 21
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Light - how many tons is that?

                        Let's not cast a shadow over it. What will an exact weight give you here?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The flooding was limited to the ship's side corridors and did not pose any danger.

                        So, suddenly, flooding has become possible. Although you just wrote,
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Therefore, cracked and dented armor will not cause flooding.

                        I haven't reminded you of Retvizan yet.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        1. Was there a wood underlayment under the slab?

                        Who told you that a wooden backing strengthens the structure? You're absolutely brilliant. You take every difference and use it to your advantage. Was it wood? Yes. So it strengthens the armor's mount.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        2. Is the steel plating of the side made in two layers?

                        And how many inches is that?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        3. Did the beams support the armor?

                        they were supported by armored bulkheads
                      8. 0
                        27 September 2025 14: 29
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Let's not cast a shadow or create a fence

                        You called the slab light... am I the one casting the shadow???
                        suddenly, flooding became possible after all

                        I meant the flooding of the 10th UY
                        I haven't reminded you of Retvizan yet.

                        What did the Retvizan have behind that armor? Was there a side corridor?
                        Who told you that a wooden base strengthens the structure?

                        The tree, crumpling, softens the blow
                        And how many inches is that?

                        The question is not about inches, but about the strength of the structure.
                        they were supported by armored bulkheads

                        What was the spacing of these bulkheads? ))) The beams were every 4 feet.
                      9. +1
                        27 September 2025 14: 44
                        Quote: rytik32
                        You called the slab light... am I the one casting the shadow???

                        I named her
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I am considering a hit on a relatively light 102mm armor plate, so why should I also consider 152-229mm cemented armor?

                        Relatively lightweight. With thicker slabs.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I meant the flooding of the 10th UY

                        And in this case, your remark is completely unfounded. You decided that the bulkhead behind the armor plate shouldn't be damaged—why is unknown. You decided that the deck couldn't be damaged either—why is unknown. You mentioned the numerous holes in the armor deck, but now you've decided to forget about it—well, at least here we can understand why.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The tree, crumpling, softens the blow

                        This is a theory that has not been confirmed by practice, which is why the tree was abandoned.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The question is not about inches, but about the strength of the structure.

                        Amazing. So you were so impressed by the "two layers" that you didn't even bother to check the thickness? What if it was 5 mm in two layers?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        What was the spacing of these bulkheads? ))) The beams were every 4 feet.

                        The edges of the armor plates rested on them. And this is a much more significant support than the beam, especially when combined with the support of the deck.
                      10. 0
                        27 September 2025 14: 59
                        Relatively lightweight. With thicker slabs.

                        So, I propose comparing the weight of the Oslyabya upper chord slab with the slab from the Chesma experiment. The Oslyabya is 7,5 feet high, 14 feet long, and 4 inches thick.
                        You didn't even ask about the thickness?

                        2 layers of 14 lbs.
                        And this is a much more serious support than a beam, especially in combination with support on the deck

                        There were frames between the beams and also brackets where they joined. This is much more reliable than something along the edges of the sheet...
                      11. +1
                        27 September 2025 15: 32
                        Quote: rytik32
                        So I propose to compare the weight of the slab of the upper belt of "Oslyabya" and the slab from the "Chesma" experiment.

                        What for?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        2 layers of 14 lbs.

                        Pounds? And how much is that in mm?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        There were frames between the beams and also brackets where they joined. This is much more reliable than something along the edges of the sheet...

                        Alexey, beams aren't any more reliable. They're simply a support at the top of the slab, not particularly thick. Beams contribute to the hull's strength, of course, but they're by no means the ultimate in reliability.
                      12. 0
                        27 September 2025 15: 44
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        What for?

                        To understand how "light" it is
                        And how much is that in mm?

                        2 sheets of 8 mm

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        not very thick

                        The issue is not the thickness, but that it takes the load on the end, in compression, and not in bending.
                      13. +1
                        27 September 2025 18: 56
                        Quote: rytik32
                        To understand how "light" it is

                        And what does this give you? The opportunity to nitpick irrelevant secondary parameters?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        2 sheets of 8 mm

                        Well, there was one half-inch sheet on Chesma.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The issue is not the thickness, but that it takes the load on the end, in compression, and not in bending.

                        This is something new. Since when did the beam under the ceiling suddenly start working in compression instead of bending?
                      14. +1
                        27 September 2025 22: 27
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And what will this give you?

                        The slab is approximately twice as large in area as the one on the Chesma. It has a wider support structure and more attachment points. These are not secondary parameters.
                        Well, there was one half-inch sheet on Chesma

                        What does this have to do with shot #41? It was a 10mm sheet.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Since when did the beam under the ceiling suddenly start working in compression and not in bending?

                        Since the shell hits the slab.
                      15. +1
                        27 September 2025 23: 27
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The slab is approximately twice as large in area as the one on the Chesma. It has a wider support structure and more attachment points. These are not secondary parameters.

                        A beam is a support at the top of a slab. Roughly, these are the support points along the top edge. On Chesma, it turns out, the slab rested on the deck (along the top edge), but also along other edges.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        What does this have to do with shot #41? It was a 10mm sheet.

                        Half-inch, which is written in simple Russian numerals on the report drawing
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Since the shell hits the slab.

                        Calm down, take a breath. The projectile hits the center of the slab or even lower, so how will the beams above perform? :))))
                        In short, it's time to finish.
                      16. 0
                        28 September 2025 00: 36
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Half-inch, which is written in simple Russian numerals on the report drawing

                        Well, there are even more discrepancies in the source!
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        How will the beams above work?

                        If the projectile hits the bottom edge of the sheet, the impact is withstood:
                        1. Sheathing sheets that overlap are cut.
                        2. The frames are also subject to shear.
                        3. Knees and corners at the joints, but they will be cut off at the rivets if points 1 and 2 do not hold.
                        In "Chesma" points 1 and 2 were not, therefore we see what is in the photo and diagram.
                      17. +1
                        28 September 2025 09: 52
                        Quote: rytik32
                        In "Chesma" points 1 and 2 were not, therefore we see that

                        You don’t even know what else to dream up, because the support on the armored bulkheads provides much more significant support.
                        Alexey, that's enough. This discussion has long since ceased to be productive.
                      18. 0
                        28 September 2025 13: 16
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Reliance on armored bulkheads provides much more significant support

                        In reality, the deck above the compartment simply buckled upward. It buckled because there was nothing above it, nothing to push against. On a real battleship, however, the deck above it would have been the gun deck and upper deck, with beams, frames, and side plating...
                      19. 0
                        28 September 2025 14: 02
                        The projectile hits the center of the slab or even lower, how will the beams above work?:)))))

                        It doesn’t matter where it ends up, the beams work in compression relative to longitudinal loads and in bending relative to loads transverse to their axis.
                        Strength of materials, however!!!
                      20. +1
                        28 September 2025 14: 15
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        It doesn't matter where it hits

                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Strength of materials, however!!!

                        As always, you are endearingly contradictory.
                      21. 0
                        28 September 2025 14: 20
                        As always, you are endearingly contradictory.

                        There's no contradiction if you read your own comment (about the center or below), which I quoted. Or are you unable to understand what you wrote?
                      22. +1
                        28 September 2025 15: 38
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        There is no contradiction if you read your own comment.

                        Aha
                      23. The comment was deleted.
                      24. The comment was deleted.
                      25. +1
                        28 September 2025 15: 59
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Quote: rytik32
                        There were frames between the beams and also brackets where they joined. This is much more reliable than something along the edges of the sheet...


                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Alexey, beams aren't any more reliable. They're simply a support at the top of the slab, not particularly thick. Beams contribute to the hull's strength, of course, but they're by no means the ultimate in reliability.

                        It all depends on what design you are looking at.
                      26. +1
                        28 September 2025 11: 00
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        This is a theory that has not been confirmed by practice, which is why the tree was abandoned.

                        Are you talking about the "Sevastopols", which are dreadnoughts?
                      27. +1
                        28 September 2025 11: 11
                        I'm talking about wood as a backing for armor.
                      28. +3
                        28 September 2025 12: 15
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I'm talking about wood as a backing for armor.

                        Naval engineer Kostenko, and with him other Germans, British and all sorts of French people look at you with amazement...
                      29. +1
                        28 September 2025 12: 34
                        In what year did they stop using wood as a substrate?:)))))
                      30. +2
                        28 September 2025 12: 56
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In what year did they stop using wood as a substrate?:)))))

                        If you look at the last one built (it was "Jean Bart") - in 1949.
                      31. +1
                        28 September 2025 13: 49
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        If you look at the last one built (it was "Jean Bart") - in 1949.

                        Well, the gentlemen knew a thing or two about perversion. However, the wooden lining was abandoned everywhere.
                      32. +1
                        28 September 2025 14: 31
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Well, the gentlemen knew a thing or two about perversion.

                        About the Germans, you would probably say something about the "gloomy Teutonic genius..."
                        The Americans replaced it with concrete because it was technically simpler.
                        The British, for example, abandoned the use of a lining because they rolled the slabs using their own technology, which allowed them to maintain tolerances more accurately...
                      33. +1
                        28 September 2025 15: 34
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        About the Germans, you would probably say something about the "gloomy Teutonic genius..."

                        Well, I won't. I'll simply cite the results of our tests, which showed that wood doesn't make the structure more armor-resistant or durable.
                      34. +1
                        28 September 2025 16: 41
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Wood does not make the structure more armor-resistant and durable.

                        More armor-resistant - that's unlikely...
                        More "durable" (like a kind of shock-absorbing cushion) - - such a moment is present.
                      35. +1
                        28 September 2025 23: 40
                        Kuteinikov wrote that the wooden backing protects the side well from breaks and dents.
                      36. +1
                        29 September 2025 06: 38
                        Of course I did. That's what people thought back then.
                      37. +1
                        29 September 2025 10: 15
                        It wasn't just "thought" that way; it was actually true. Kuteinikov wasn't theorizing, but describing what he saw with his own eyes.
  10. The comment was deleted.
  11. +3
    25 September 2025 02: 31
    Hello, deeply respected Andrey!

    Excellent analytical work, thank you very much for the pleasure. The article is easy to read, the plot is captivating from the very first line, and your observation and meticulousness are a credit to you. The unexpected conclusions and observations you made based on well-known facts are particularly well-received. For example, it didn't occur to your humble servant to compare the number of workers employed in the construction of the two "Borodinsky" mines, even though I've long been familiar with these statistics.

    In order to achieve hits with 7 12-inch shells in the waterline area, the Japanese had to achieve dozens of hits with such shells on the Oslyabya, since the hits were distributed across the ship's silhouette more or less statistically

    Well, if the accuracy of the 12" guns that hit the Oslyaba was percent two hundred or higher, then this could well have happened.
    laughing
    1. +1
      25 September 2025 10: 06
      Dear Valentine, good afternoon!
      The projected area of ​​the Oslyabya's bow turret is several times smaller than the area of ​​the side near the waterline. The bow turret was hit by three 12-inch shells.
      If the statement that “hits were distributed across the ship’s silhouette more or less statistically” were true, then the accuracy of the 12-inch guns that hit the Oslyaba was not percent two hundred, more order.
      1. +3
        25 September 2025 13: 12
        Hello dear Alexey!

        How many 12” shells do you think could have been fired at the Oslyaba in total?
        1. 0
          25 September 2025 14: 04
          I'll count it in the evening.
          But keep in mind that the holes in the upper belt were more likely caused by 8-inch armor-piercing shells.
      2. +2
        25 September 2025 18: 24
        Quote: rytik32
        Three 12-inch shells hit the forward turret.

        May I ask who and how determined the caliber?
        1. 0
          25 September 2025 22: 31
          Quote: Comrade
          May I ask who and how determined the caliber?

          Sablin and Zavarin wrote that 12-dm.

          in total, 12" shells could have been fired?

          Somewhere around 40...50
          1. +3
            26 September 2025 01: 11
            Hello dear Alexey!

            Quote: rytik32
            Sablin and Zavarin wrote that 12-dm.

            Older mine officer M.P. Sablin and mine-machine Conductor V.N. Zavarin, due to a number of reasons, was unable to determine the caliber of the shells that hit the turret.
            Quote: rytik32
            Somewhere around 40...50

            Is this empirical data?
    2. +2
      25 September 2025 20: 18
      Good evening, dear Valentine!
      Thank you for your high rating:)
      Quote: Comrade
      Well, if the accuracy of the 12" guns that hit the Oslyaba was two hundred percent

      If you did overstate it, it wasn't by much:)))))
      1. +1
        28 September 2025 01: 03
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        If you did overstate it, it wasn't by much :)

        Dear Andrey, it's unknown, of course, how many 12-inch shells the Japanese actually fired at the Oslyaba. We can only estimate how many the Japanese could have fired, theoretically.
        My subjective opinion is no more than twenty.

        By the way, the spread of 12" shells in the battle at Cape Sarych came to mind.
        "Eustathius" - 16, "John Chrysostom" - 6 and "Three Saints" - 12. The Japanese probably also had an uneven consumption of 12" shells.
  12. 0
    25 September 2025 08: 10
    Weak armor, coupled with an overload of coal (they practically loaded her to the brim before the battle), that's the whole reason. Oslyabya was initially a suicide bomber, the worst battleship.
    1. +5
      25 September 2025 09: 18
      Well..."Peresvet" withstood many more hits and lasted longer in the Yellow Sea... And received almost identical damage at the waterline... And, well, she didn't sink. request
      1. +1
        25 September 2025 09: 44
        Quote: Rurikovich
        Peresvet withstood many more hits

        A comparison of the damage to the Oslyabya and Peresvet using objective and measurable criteria suggests that the Oslyabya received far more hits.
        see https://topwar.ru/260351-pochemu-pogib-bronenosec-osljabja.html
        1. 0
          25 September 2025 20: 16
          Quote: rytik32
          Comparison of the damage to the Oslyabya and Peresvet using objective and measurable criteria suggests that

          ...Alexey slightly overestimated the number of hits by a factor of two:)))
          https://topwar.ru/269105-o-povrezhdenijah-predopredelivshih-gibel-osljabi-v-cusimskom-srazhenii.html
      2. +1
        25 September 2025 15: 16
        Peresvet crawled to Artur, so we were able to count the hits. We can only guess how many hits Oslyabya received.
    2. +2
      25 September 2025 20: 18
      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      plus coal overload

      There was no more coal at Oslyaba than at Peresvet
      1. 0
        27 September 2025 13: 31
        In Cam Ranh, the 2nd TEU ships were loaded to the maximum capacity to reach Vladivostok. Artur is closer to Vladik, so there's no need to overload.
        1. +3
          27 September 2025 13: 42
          Quote: TermNachTER
          In Cam Ranh, ships of the 2nd Pacific Fleet

          Read the Almaz signal book - on the 13th Oslyabya reported 1415 tons
          Quote: TermNachTER
          The 2nd TOE was loaded to the maximum so that it would be enough to reach Vladivostok.

          Nikolai, if you want to spout nonsense, then at least don't write it to me. The squadron last took on coal on May 10th.
          Quote: TermNachTER
          It's closer from Artur to Vladik, so there's no need to overload.

          In both cases, the ships went into battle with approximately 1500 tons. Full load is more than 2,000 tons, normal - roughly 1000
          1. 0
            27 September 2025 14: 10
            Just look at the map. How far is it from Artur to Vladik, and how far is it from Kamranka? Even off the top of my head, it's twice as far from Kamranka, so the amount of coal in the pits is correspondingly higher.
            1. -4
              27 September 2025 14: 21
              Your opponent is using a well-known fact manipulation when he reduces the discussion of overload to the availability of coal reserves. But the overload was far from limited to coal. See the Orel plaque: https://topwar.ru/258592-o-nepotopljaemosti-bronenosca-osljabja.html And the trend was not encouraging: the further it went, the greater the overload became, with all sorts of things kept "in reserve."
              Second point: you can't take the Almaz's signal log at face value. The actual coal quantities often differed from those declared. On the Orel, major discrepancies were discovered after loading in Vigo. On the Borodino, around the same time. The Alexander III held out until the last minute and only "confessed" in Cam Ranh.
              1. +1
                27 September 2025 14: 26
                Quote: rytik32
                Your opponent is using a well-known fact manipulation when he reduces the discussion of overload to the availability of coal reserves.

                Alexey, you're currently using a very well-known manipulation called "substituting the subject of the discussion." We weren't talking about overload, but about angle.
                Quote: rytik32
                Second point: you can't take the Almaz signal book at face value. The actual coal quantity often differed from the declared quantity.

                It is true that sometimes it turned out that there was less coal on the ship than stated.
                1. -3
                  27 September 2025 14: 33
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  You're now using a very well-known manipulation called "substituting the subject of discussion." We weren't talking about overload, but about angle.

                  I didn't have a discussion with you about coal, so I couldn't replace anything )))
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  less than announced

                  Or more, like on the "Eagle" during the battle.
                  1. +2
                    27 September 2025 14: 47
                    Quote: rytik32
                    I didn't have a discussion with you about coal, so I couldn't replace anything )))

                    Well, how is that? We joined in absentia.
                    Quote: rytik32
                    Your opponent is using a well-known fact-checking technique when he reduces the overload to the availability of coal reserves. But the overload involved far more than just coal.

                    However, you made a mistake again by writing
                    Quote: rytik32
                    And the trend was not encouraging: the further we went, the greater the overload of all sorts of things taken "in reserve."

                    What makes you think the same thing didn't happen on the Peresvet? That's just a characteristic of ships, by the way. Yes, there could have been some extra cargo taken on by order, but where people are, weights increase.
                2. -1
                  27 September 2025 14: 33
                  So explain, what relation did the Almaz signal book have to the Oslyaba?
                  1. +3
                    27 September 2025 14: 47
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    So explain, what relation did the Almaz signal book have to the Oslyaba?

                    you did it yourself
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    Did it record all the semaphores across the squadron?

                    Yes, morning reports
              2. 0
                27 September 2025 14: 32
                I'm saying the same thing. The Oslyabya left the shipyard already carrying around 800 tons of construction overload. I still don't understand what the signal book from the Almaz has to do with the Oslyabya. Did it record all the signals across the squadron?
                All sorts of "mess" with coal are a well-known problem. It's a very difficult and dirty business. I remember once we were transporting Jamaican bauxite—it was as nasty as dust. The chunks of Guinean bauxite are much better. After the Jamaican one, my black T-shirt was washed red for a month.
                1. 0
                  27 September 2025 14: 34
                  It recorded morning reports. Every morning, ships reported, among other things, the amount of coal on board and their consumption for the day.
                  1. -1
                    27 September 2025 14: 35
                    At the Almaz? Why not at the Suvorov? Wasn't Rozhdestvensky even interested in this question?
                    1. +2
                      27 September 2025 14: 39
                      All of the Suvorov's papers were lost. But the Almaz reached Vladivostok almost intact. Besides, it was a rehearsal ship. The signalmen often confused the signals, and Malechkin received a thrashing for it. So Malechkin ordered the signalmen to record the readings so they could later check them and avoid transmitting complete nonsense to the Suvorov.
  13. +1
    3 October 2025 00: 19
    It was an interesting series. Certainly too technical, but valuable for outside observers for its insight into the pre-revolutionary military production environment.
  14. +1
    3 November 2025 15: 10
    Quote: TermNachTER
    Who's slapping his hands?))) But don't take your guesses and assumptions as the ultimate truth)))
    Excuse me, Comrade Colonel General, but the author doesn't consider his words to be the "ultimate truth": "...Can we say that this series of my articles has put a final end to the question of the Oslyabya's demise and that the Absolute Truth speaks through my lips? Of course not."