Military Review

"Mistral" and "Rhino". The choice is obvious

125



2012 year brought two interesting news for the Russian Navy. The first optimistic event took place on February 1 in the small port town of Saint-Nazaire in the west of France - cutting of metal for the first universal landing craft-helicopter carrier Mistral a la Rus began on the day at the shipyard STX France. Along the way, the name of the future ship, Vladivostok, became known.
It is noteworthy that, despite the Russian-French nature of the agreement, the construction of two Mistrals for the Russian Navy is being de facto conducted at the STX shipyard, owned by South Korea! Large-scale international project, which draws a good half of the world. The total value of the contract, according to open sources, was 1,7 billion euros.

The second important news was announced in September: the Russian Defense Ministry decided to hold an unusual auction. Lot is the largest landing ship of the Russian Navy to date, the last BDK of the 1174 project (code "Rhino").

- Million dollars!

- Million dollars. Who is bigger?

- Two million!

- Two million times! Two million two ...

And "Mitrofan Moskalenko" went under the hammer.

"Mistral" and "Rhino". The choice is obvious

However, the results of this farce are known in advance - “Mitrofan Moskalenko” will not cost more than $ 2,5 million - this is the maximum market value of 11 thousand tons of steel structures of the hull of the old ship. The last of the major Soviet BDK is sold at the price of ordinary scrap metal.
To a reasonable question: Why are you doing this? - the representatives of the Ministry of Defense found a fully reasoned answer:
- The Ministry of Defense of Russia decided to write off the BDK “Mitrofan Moskalenko” and put it into scrap primarily for economic reasons. Its repair would cost an amount for which at least two small artillery ships can be built. And from a strategic point of view, its demand is not obvious - Russia is not going to land a naval landing force anywhere.


Everything goes as usual. It would seem, what does the purchase of the most up-to-date helicopter carrier in France have to do with the tragicomedy of the recycling of the old Soviet junk? The source in the Ministry of Defense is absolutely right: given the current state of the Russian Navy and the general geopolitical situation in the world, conducting amphibious assault forces is possible only in the form of joint operations by forces of Russia and NATO countries. Obviously, this is contrary to the foreign policy interests of Russia, and, therefore, amphibious assault ships of the Russian Navy are not needed in principle.

The economic factor is important - the repair of the old BDK "Mitrofan Moskalenko" will cost as the construction of two new small artillery ships ... Stop!
Compare MAC and BDK? Guys, this sounds as ridiculous as an advertising slogan: “Buy a car and get a baseball cap as a gift.” IAC and Mitrofan Moskalenko are two different categories of things. 14000-ton universal ocean ship and 500-ton coastal boat with primitive weapons.

You say that the repair of "Moskalenko" is worth, as the construction of two new small artillery ships? According to official data, the construction of a small artillery ship "Astrakhan" (the head of the IAC project 21630 "Buyan") cost Russia 372 million rubles. Or about 10 million, if you count in European currency. Two small artillery ships - 20 million euros.
For comparison: the purchase of each Mistral cost Russia 800 million euros!
But is it correct to compare among themselves the outdated trough of Soviet construction and the super-modern French ship?

Universal landing helicopter "Mistral"

The standard displacement is 16500 tons.
The total displacement is 21300 tons.
Length 199 m, width 32 m, draft 6,3 m.
GEM: three 32-cylinder ship diesel generators (Värtsylä, Finland).
Propeller: two azipod-type propeller columns (Rolls-Royce, UK).
Maximum speed of 18,8 nodes.
Cruising range: 10700 nautical miles at economic speeds of 15 knots.

Landing abilities:
- Dock camera, 4 landing craft type CTM or 2 high-speed landing craft air cushion type LCAC;
- flight deck, helicopter hangar, two lifts. Up to 16 units of large aircraft: combat, transport or multi-purpose helicopters (foreign NH-90, Tiger; domestic Ka-27, Ka-29, Ka-52 Alligator).
- "Mistral" is able to take on board tank battalion - 40 MBT "Leclerc" or up to 280 units of trucks and light armored vehicles.
- the premises of the personnel are designed to accommodate 450 marines (with the possibility of a short-term increase to 900 people).

Defensive armament: two Simbad self-defense air defense systems (based on MANPADS), two 30 caliber automatic weapons.


Dixmude (L9015) in the Gulf of Junia (Lebanon)

"Mistral" is simply charming. Automated "all-electric vessel", requiring minimal logistic support. Universal "democratizer", capable of urgently delivering a battalion of marines, equipment and equipment to any region of the oceans. Cargo ramps, speedboats and helicopters.

Grand flagship command post: an amphitheater of 900 square meters. meters, 160 workplaces of operators, satellite communications. Effective management naval a compound or any combined arms landing operation.

Equipped hospital area 750 square. meters with the possibility of increasing the modular principle, at the expense of other spaceships. If necessary, the 100 man of the medical staff in the 12 operating rooms can be provided.

The most advanced means of detection: a three-dimensional radar Thales MRR-3D-NG, which provides control of the air situation in the radius 180 km from the ship. Or an infrared search-and-sighting system "Vampir NG", capable of detecting and taking on escort low-flying anti-ship missiles and speedboats at any time of the day and in all weather conditions.

"Mistral" really cool ship, a real step forward at the level of accommodation of the crew and landing force. The latest electronics and control systems, spacious flight deck. Roomy holds and comfortable mats. This helicopter assault landing dock of the XXI century.

Large landing ship project 1174 (code "Rhino")

Standard displacement 11 500 tons;
Full displacement 14 000 tons;
Length 157,5 m, width 24 m, draft 6,7 m.
GEM: two gas-turbine installations M8K (2 x 18 000 hp);
Maximum speed 21 node.
Cruising range: 7500 nautical miles at economic speeds of 14 knots.

Landing abilities:

"Rhino" is able to take on board up to 2500 tons of cargo: there is a tank hold in the bow of the BDK (length 54 m, width 12 m, height about 5 m) about 75 m).

BDK provides transportation and disembarkation of a motorized rifle battalion, including the 440 man and 79 units of equipment (armored personnel carriers, infantry fighting vehicles, tanks, cars, etc.). In the absence of amphibious assault vehicles in the docking chamber, the "Rhino" can take on board a tank unit with 46 main battle tanks. Autonomy - 15 days in transit 500 paratroopers or 30 days in transit 250 paratroopers.

Nasal gangway length 32 meter with hydraulic drive. The landing with non-floating equipment can be carried out directly on an unequipped coast at a ford depth at noke gangway of no more than 1,2 m. According to statistics, the BDK Ave 1174 can provide landing with the help of a nasal gangway at 17% of the coast of the World Ocean.

Cargo ramp for receiving and landing troops on the equipped pier.

For unloading of non-floating equipment without approaching the shore, six amphibious boats of the 1176 Ave. (1 MBT capacity, 10-11 speed knot.) Or three high-speed amphibious assault boats of the 11770 Aeronautical Serna (speed up to 27 knots with a swell 3 score).

Aviation armament: two helipads with refueling systems; up to 4 Ka-29 transport and combat helicopters can be based on the ship.
Also, "Rhino" is equipped with a system for receiving liquid and solid cargo in the sea.

Built-in weapons:
- Short-range air defense system "Osa-M" (20 missile ammunition);
- twin gun mount AK-726 caliber 76 mm;
- two batteries of anti-aircraft guns AK-630;
- two A-215 “Grad-M” multiple launch rocket systems for artillery support of the landing force.


Monumental ship! Predatory "jaws" of the nasal gates, constructive trim aft, heavyweight superstructure developed. In general, the real rhino!

Back in 1978, the Soviet Navy received a unique marine equipment - an unparalleled universal landing craft capable of landing marine units both directly onto an equipped or non-equipped shore, and without approaching the coast: floating equipment - directly to the water, non-swimming - to deliver to land on landing boats. At the same time, the personnel of the landing force could be delivered to any place on the coast with the help of transport and combat helicopters on board.

However, the role of "Rhino" was not limited only to the delivery and landing of troops - if necessary, the ship could provide the Marines with solid fire support: two installations of Grad-MRLS (2 x 40 guides 122 mm, reload time - 2 minutes) and nasal 76 mm AK-726 twin guns. There was even their own SAM "Osa-M"!

Unlike the beloved Mistral, the Rhinoceros BDK does have less autonomy and less efficiency when conducting amphibious operations on the other side of the Earth. But was it important? At one time, the Soviet Navy had naval bases and logistics points around the world - from Vietnam and Cuba, to Somalia. As for the modern Russian Navy, our sailors clearly do not have to land in French Polynesia - the higher autonomy of the Mistral will remain unclaimed. In other words, in terms of cruising and autonomy, the Mistral in the Russian context has no advantages over the old BDK project 1174.


The capacity and capacity of the Mistral is naturally greater — it is X times larger than the Rhinoceros. But is the advantage of the French ship so noticeable? Advertising leaflets claim 1,5 units of vehicles onboard the Soviet BDK and 120 units of equipment on board the Mistral.
But, it is important to understand that a warship is not a means to haul supported cars from Japan. Paratroopers going into battle require a well-defined technique - TANKS. Practice shows that without the support of heavy armored vehicles, engaging in combat is problematic and dangerous. Landing party necessarily need MBT.

How many main battle tanks fit aboard the Mistral and the Rhinoceros?
The answer is paradoxical: the same! On average - one battalion in the 40 MBT. It seems that not every cargo deck on the Mistral can withstand the weight of an 50-ton combat tracked vehicle. However, in this case, the "Rhino" will also have trouble - will have to abandon the landing craft, placing the tanks in the empty dock chamber.
(There are various pessimistic assumptions that the maximum number of OBTs on board the Mistral cannot exceed 5 ... 13 units - tanks are placed on the ground in front of the docking chamber and directly on board the landing craft. The rest of the decks and ramps of the French ship have a mass limitation of armored vehicles - no more than 32 tons)

As for aircraft armament, the domestic BDK, of course, is a clear loser: there are fewer landing sites in 3, only four helicopters. However, what does it matter in real life? - for a real amphibious operation, it is required TENS times more rotorcraft. Let us take as an example the Falklands conflict - a local sea battle on the edge of the Earth. However, the operation involved ... 130 British helicopters!


The Soviet landing ship has its important advantage - a solid built-in armament complex. Weight weaponsinstalled on board the BDK, exceeds 100 tons - “Rhino” is bristling from all sides with missile launchers and artillery barrels.

Of course, no one harbors illusions about the combat capabilities of the outdated Osa-M SAM ... but what prevents you from dismantling the complex and putting something else in return? For example, the compact shipboard SAM "Shtil". Not satisfied with the AK-26 726-ton Artillery? Change it to a new A-192 larger system. And what prevents to install the AK-630 rocket and artillery complex "Palash" instead of the battery "metal cutters"?
Finally, Grad multiple launch rocket systems. Even after half a century, the legendary weapon remains one of the most deadly missile and artillery systems and hardly needs to be replaced.

You will say that this is a very expensive proposal, a radical revision of the Rhino project will be required ... well, so well, it is planned to spend 800 million euros for the purchase of each Mistral. There is confidence that half of this colossal amount would be enough to modernize the old Rhino BDK.

As a result, we observe an interesting situation: based on the realities of the Russian Navy, the old Soviet BDK corresponds to its overseas competitor in most of the stated characteristics. Moreover, the "Rhino" is much preferable when performing the main task of the amphibious ships - delivery to the coast of heavy equipment and armored vehicles (ordinary container carriers and destroyers can do the rest). Unlike the Mistral, it does not need to waste time moving tanks from cargo decks to landing craft with their subsequent unloading to the coast. Filling the dock with water, mooring boats ... too long and time consuming operation.


"Rhino" just come to the shore, stuck into the sand nasal gangway and landed technology under its own power. Do not be afraid of statistics that only 17% of the coast of the oceans is suitable for landing through the bow of the BDK (suitable bottom slope, the nature of the soil, etc.) - in reality this means hundreds of thousands of kilometers of coastline. You can always find the right place.

***

However, it’s not even the number of guns and tanks aboard the Rhino or Mistral. Those articles on the national economy that the author was able to read clearly indicate: the most profitable investment is investment in own production. Protectionism, protection of domestic producers, customs barriers - all this is a real confirmation of this theory.

To avoid unhealthy associations, we note that the following passage does not apply to Rhino.
Sometimes it doesn’t matter that the domestic technology is inferior in its performance characteristics to foreign analogues - the main thing is that it was built in Russia. Domestic shipyards and factories loaded with work, increasing the welfare of the population. Simple, intuitive conclusions.

But what happened in reality? The interests of the sailors were in last place. BDK "Mitrofan Moskalenko" went to the nails. His colleague, Mistral, became a bargaining chip in the geopolitical game, a kind of payment for Russian-French cooperation.








MLRS A-215 "Grad-M" on board the BDK 775 Ave. "Konstantin Olshansky" (Ukrainian Navy)








Using materials:
http://sagem-ds.com/
http://morpeh.ru/
http://army-news.ru/
http://izvestia.ru/
Author:
125 comments
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  1. svp67
    svp67 April 22 2013 08: 05 New
    47
    The author raised an interesting topic. And is it time to make a request to the Ministry of Defense and to the relevant committee of the State Duma regarding the fate of the BDK. Who knows how to do this? It is necessary to save what is left ...
    1. starshina78
      starshina78 April 22 2013 09: 17 New
      25
      I AM FOR ! It's time to stop the destruction of the fleet. And they destroyed so much that the hair stands on end!
      1. Russian
        Russian April 22 2013 09: 22 New
        +7
        Yeah, very sorry for this ship! And at the moment we have only one ship of such a project? Of course, it would be preferable to modernize this ship, and build more ships according to the modernized design. Eeeh, politics, politics, we must already start thinking about the interests of our country, and put them at the forefront!
        1. smprofi
          smprofi April 22 2013 14: 51 New
          +8
          Quote: р_у_с_с_к_и_й
          at the moment we have only one ship of such a project?

          BDK project 1174 was 3 pieces:
          - “Ivan Rogov”, serial number 101, decommissioned in 1996
          - “Alexander Nikolaev”, serial number 102, since 1997 in reserve. Prepared for disposal.
          - Mitrofan Enko, serial number 103, since 2002 in reserve.
        2. Batman
          Batman April 22 2013 16: 28 New
          0
          Eeeh, politics, politics

          here it’s not politics anymore, but stuffing the karamin was .., but at the expense of the Mistral, I heard, they backtracked?
          1. LINX
            LINX April 22 2013 19: 20 New
            +1
            Two paid will be built without options, abandoned two more (planned for construction already in the Russian Federation).
        3. roskot
          roskot 20 July 2017 17: 27 New
          0
          Once we think about the interests of our country, we congratulate Alekseev.
    2. Civil
      Civil April 22 2013 09: 21 New
      +4
      Mitrofan's modernization - that would be right ...
      Conduct a landing operation from container ships and destroyers (which the cat wept so much already) at the author ZAGNUUUL
      1. Bronis
        Bronis April 22 2013 09: 52 New
        +3
        with destroyers - yes. But what about the rights of tankers. In the USA, the main tank carriers are not UDCs like Tarawa or Wosp. And specialized courts are based on civilian ones.
        1. Santa Fe
          April 22 2013 10: 18 New
          +8
          Quote: Bronis
          In the USA, the main tank carriers are not UDCs like Tarawa or Wosp. And specialized courts are based on civilian ones.

          Unloading USNS Seay
          1. Val_y
            Val_y April 22 2013 10: 31 New
            0
            Ro-Ro are called not only in the United States, but in all countries that have such. soldier
          2. Kars
            Kars April 22 2013 11: 52 New
            +8
            I went above to the article The fate of the aircraft carriers, I look something is wrong. The author is not Kaptsov, I see Mistral, well, I think it’s HOUR - and here it is.
            This article is more interesting)))))))))))
            1. Santa Fe
              April 22 2013 18: 54 New
              +2
              Quote: Kars
              This article is more interesting)))))))))))

              TANKS !!!
    3. Vadivak
      Vadivak April 22 2013 09: 21 New
      17
      Quote: ..
      The interests of the sailors were in last place.


      Oleg is right, but it’s not necessary to save the BDK, but the country from the rescuers
      1. Santa Fe
        April 22 2013 10: 16 New
        +2
        Russia has two allies - the Army and the Navy
        And two enemies - the People and the Government)))
        1. Batman
          Batman April 22 2013 16: 33 New
          0
          And two enemies - the People and the Government)))

          somehow frowning. And the rest are "alleged enemies"?
          1. Santa Fe
            April 22 2013 18: 56 New
            +3
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Russia has two allies - the Army and the Navy
            And two enemies - the People and the Government)))

            There is a joke in every joke

            "If I fall asleep, wake up in 100 years, and they ask me what is happening in Russia now, I will answer without a doubt: Drink and Steal"

            / Saltykov-Shchedrin /
        2. Cheloveck
          Cheloveck April 23 2013 21: 53 New
          +1
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          Russia has two allies - the Army and Navy - two enemies - the People and the Government)))

          At the moment, the enemy is one - the government, and the allies, alas, are weak and powerless if they have not been able to defend Russia for so many years.
    4. Batman
      Batman April 22 2013 16: 31 New
      +1
      Mistrals can only swim in warm seas and oceans)
      1. dmitreach
        dmitreach April 22 2013 17: 18 New
        +1
        Most ships and ships can only sail in warm seas. It would be different concept of "ice class", would not affect the cost of construction.
        1. Santa Fe
          April 22 2013 19: 39 New
          0
          Quote: dmitreach
          Most ships and ships can only sail in warm seas.

          According to some information, the SSBN ave. 941 "Shark" is not able to swim in the tropics (in fact, it does not need it).

          The Shark building is designed for water temperature near 0 gr. Celsius.
          1. dmitreach
            dmitreach April 22 2013 20: 34 New
            +1
            The main sea "highways" and the largest trading ports where? Obviously not on SevMorPuti ... I was not interested from this point of view, but I'm not sure that the Amers are building a commercial fleet like the Norwegians, the Swedes, or us. Most of the trade routes and events take place in warmer waters ... Ships in which the “ice class” is laid, even the first, is not a basic need. Aframax, Panamax is what sets the rhythm to a greater extent than the severity of ice conditions. IMHO.
            1. Aleksys2
              Aleksys2 April 22 2013 23: 18 New
              +1
              Quote: dmitreach
              but not sure if the amers are building a commercial fleet like the Norwegians, the Swedes, or us.

              And why suddenly:
              The US icebreaker fleet is owned by the Coast Guard, which uses ships primarily to provide icebreaking operations for merchant shipping, and also partially for military and research purposes. This has influenced the development of icebreakers in the United States. American icebreakers have the architecture, armament, habitability and equipment typical of military vessels, but their technical equipment and adaptability to carry out operations on pilotage are quite high. Icebreaking in the United States began to develop quite late, and therefore it (unlike Canadian) experienced a significant influence of European practice. In particular, the shape of the contours of the hull of American icebreakers is a cross between the contours of the hull of Canadian and European icebreakers.
              A special report entitled "US Icebreakers, Their Roles and Future Needs of the USA", prepared in September 2006 by the US National Council for Scientific Research at the direction of the US Congress, emphasizes that "due to the geographical location of Alaska, the USA is an Arctic state with significant geopolitical, economic, scientific and security interests in the Arctic and therefore US interests in this region should be protected. "
              "The possible ratification of Article 76 of the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea will require extensive efforts to map the US continental shelf off the coast of Alaska if the US wants to use the convention to expand its economic zones and counter the claims of other Arctic states," the report says. which states the importance for the US Coast Guard to have powerful, modern icebreakers.
              The document emphasizes that "the potential expansion of human activity in the northern latitudes is likely to require the US Coast Guard to strengthen its presence at the ice sheet to fulfill its security and law enforcement missions."
              The US is required to build two new polar icebreakers to protect its current and future interests in the Arctic and Antarctic, a report to Congress said.
              Read on: http://izvestia.ru/news/405606#ixzz2RDnoGPaC
              1. dmitreach
                dmitreach April 22 2013 23: 43 New
                0
                And why suddenly:
                US icebreaker fleet
              2. dmitreach
                dmitreach April 22 2013 23: 46 New
                0
                And why suddenly:
                US icebreaker fleet
                1. dmitreach
                  dmitreach April 22 2013 23: 47 New
                  0
                  [media = http: //www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg552/docs/MAJOR%20ICEBREAKERS%20Chart.pdf]
                  And why suddenly
                  US icebreaker fleet

                  At least the fact that we have icebreakers and ice-class vessels will (almost) be under fifty, and the Amers will have 5.
                  Again the photos are not flooded !!! (((
                  The link is an interesting plate.
                  http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg552/docs/MAJOR%20ICEBREAKERS%20Chart.pdf
                  1. Aleksys2
                    Aleksys2 April 22 2013 23: 58 New
                    0
                    Quote: dmitreach
                    Again the photos are not flooded !!!

                    It is strange to hear this from such a "scholar" like you. Files with the extension .pdf are not “photos”, the category “photos” includes files with the extension .jpg, .jpeg, .gif, .png, .tiff, etc.
                    Now, with regard to the icebreakers, the question is not who has how many icebreakers, but that the confrontation is being transferred to the Arctic: "The US is obliged to build two new polar icebreakers to protect their current and future interests in the Arctic and Antarcticsaid in a report to Congress. "
                    keywords are highlighted.
                    1. dmitreach
                      dmitreach April 23 2013 02: 35 New
                      0
                      Again the photos are not flooded !!! (((

                      What flooded from a computer I saved the bulo as .jpg
                      I had to google again and look for the original table, which is still not jpg.
                      More questions? "erudite" Alekis the second?
                      The photo is huge, probably that's why it wasn’t flooded. Now I’ve opened it in the editor, so there the color depth is 32bit (3508X4963 32bit) ... I certainly dumb, I do not argue, I forgot to re-save the preview. You can’t fill such a site, but the matter is not in the file extension, as it turned out, but in bit rate from. .pdf from .jpg I distinguish.
                      1. dmitreach
                        dmitreach April 23 2013 02: 51 New
                        0
                        almost four mb ...
                      2. dmitreach
                        dmitreach April 23 2013 02: 53 New
                        0
                        850 kb ... it flows and almost 4 mb - no ... such things. request
                      3. dmitreach
                        dmitreach April 23 2013 02: 55 New
                        0
                        Well ... everything is OK.
                      4. dmitreach
                        dmitreach April 23 2013 02: 59 New
                        0
                        Hmm, there was a file for high-quality photo printing. Well, that's ok.
                      5. dmitreach
                        dmitreach April 23 2013 03: 03 New
                        0
                        can anyone in the know we have a photo size limit? Now less than 950 on the long side, resolution 72, 8Bits / Chenel, RGB, only 267kb! ... request
                      6. dmitreach
                        dmitreach April 24 2013 17: 27 New
                        0
                        MILLION! I'm stupid! All legs grew in a "browser version update"!
                      7. dmitreach
                        dmitreach April 24 2013 17: 29 New
                        0
                        clickable. in high quality
        2. seafarer
          seafarer April 29 2013 13: 32 New
          +1
          Quote: dmitreach
          Vessels in which the "ice class" is laid, even the first, is not a basic need.

          We ship class "Mistral" can only be claimed in the SF and Pacific Fleet. For the Baltic and Black Sea Fleet they are clearly redundant. And Vladik, Shkotovo-17, the inner harbor of the island of Russky, completely freeze. I'm not talking about the Sea of ​​Okhotsk. So, the ice class is quite appropriate. I didn’t serve in the North, but I think that there the ice class building will not be out of place.
          This is a warship, which should always be ready, in any weather, to exit.
  • Captain Vrungel
    Captain Vrungel April 22 2013 08: 17 New
    23
    Rhino is a warship. Transportation, fire support, landing, both directly ashore, and on amphibious vehicles and helicopters. Pretty decent speed. This ship fully understands the meaning of the word.
    “Mistral” is “it,” a means where a lot of money wasted in vain and a problem arose, how to attach it, because the “French” entity requires special conditions for living and upkeep with great financial outlay. This was understood by the French themselves. They stopped and began furiously looking for someone to shove illiquid assets. Moscow Region, led by a stool and a harem, pampering itself with French cosmetics and haute couture uniforms, could not resist the French, and even an order of magnitude more expensive, tender self-propelled barge. Now we will reassure ourselves and fantasize how necessary this French “miracle”, the “flagship” of amphibious forces, having killed the last rhinoceros warship.
    1. not good
      not good April 22 2013 12: 28 New
      12
      The question of buying MISTRAL is a question for the Investigative Committee and the State Duma regarding the inefficient use of budgetary funds and the corruption component in the deal with the French. And the position of the Navy Commander-in-Chief in relation to the ships of pr.1174 generally gives up rotten meat, I would like to stand up and amassed by the way, when the decision was made to purchase the Mistral helicopter carrier, Russian shipbuilders proposed the Moscow Region modernization of pr.1174 ships. When modernizing it was proposed to increase the length of the RHINOUR by 50 meters, which allowed it was possible to equip a helicopter hangar with a lift and a flight deck on the ship, not to mention replacing technical equipment and armaments with modern ones. Moreover, it cost much less than the Mistral, the modernized RHINOUR by capacity close came close to the Frenchman, and in terms of combat capabilities and survivability would have left him in deep w ... pop. Especially in survivability, because. our warships during development have much more stringent requirements than for militarized French ferries, which one hit of something explosive on board will be enough to organize another military burial on the seabed. And given that construction in France took away our jobs and salaries ... is just another betrayal of the ruling elite.
      1. dmitreach
        dmitreach April 22 2013 17: 25 New
        +1
        a question to the Investigative Committee and the State Duma regarding the inefficient use of budget funds and the corruption component in a deal with the French.

        Yes, there is a topic for the search for SK. But, first of all, this is Russia's attempt to enter the global shipbuilding industry, having “cut off” the half-century long path ... Start analyzing the UDC transaction from the point of view of USC (heavy industry), and not the Moscow Region. And everything will become clear. Talk about "shaggy paws" leave for cooks. And suggest something sensible.
        So I see real attempts, suffering a “torpedo” from the global shipbuilding market.
        This is the "DSME Star." Notice, Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering Co .... foreigners again! A little earlier it was not held “Kotlin”. The cooperation around Mistral is the same dances with a tambourine, only a little more successful.
        Yes ... Such things ...
        1. Kars
          Kars April 22 2013 17: 30 New
          +2
          Quote: dmitreach
          in terms of USC (heavy industry),

          And what prevented the conclusion of an agreement on the supply of technology with the theme of the Koreans? Build ships of a different class using the same technologies.
          1. dmitreach
            dmitreach April 22 2013 17: 45 New
            +2
            And what prevented the conclusion of an agreement on the supply of technology with the theme of the Koreans? Build ships of a different class using the same technologies.

            Very simple.
            For example, the fact that Koreans do not have a share in the Thales Group and Sagem or the Safran group, which are not only related to the Mistralka filling, but are also strategic corporations for the French. (Like our USC and UAC), foreigners go there without going.
            Korean TOKTO has no French know-how. There is a lot of AmericaGans, but this is how it will work out with Juan Carlos ... That is, a little more than nothing. Amer will not give. And an empty barge is not needed for nothing. By the way, we know Apple as an example of IT technology, but we speak little about the French, who are even cooler in some ways.
            kak something tak ...
            1. Kars
              Kars April 22 2013 18: 02 New
              +2
              Quote: dmitreach
              Koreans have no share in Thales Group and Sagem

              Does this have a modular design or zenith 9? which will fail at the right moment for NATO.
              Quote: dmitreach
              And an empty barge is not needed for nothing

              so it looks like for Russia this will happen.
              Moreover, it is inaudible that they will build two successors of the ship at the shipyards of the Russian Federation.
              And about the transfer of electronic technology is also inaudible.
              or iron
              GEM: three 32-cylinder ship diesel generators (Värtsylä, Finland).
              Mover: two Azipod propeller-driven columns (Rolls-Royce, UK)

              their technology will be advanced? because then on the second point in Russia there is definitely nothing similar.
              1. dmitreach
                dmitreach April 22 2013 18: 08 New
                0
                below answered. hi
              2. Santa Fe
                April 22 2013 19: 06 New
                0
                Quote: Kars
                And about the transfer of electronic technology is also inaudible.

                SAGEM prepares to sell its VAMPIR IR system
                http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=16062&print=Y
                Quote: Kars
                on the second point in Russia there is definitely nothing similar.

                propeller columns?
                http://topwar.ru/20879-nachalo-vozrozhdeniyu-rossiyskogo-ledokolnogo-flota-poloz

                heno.html

                By the way, do you remember arguing about displacement
                I'm certainly not Anthony Dinn, but something is wrong here ...
                1. dmitreach
                  dmitreach April 22 2013 19: 55 New
                  0
                  the same news, in Russian:
                  The French company Sazhem (Safran group) will supply infrared search and sighting systems Vampir-NG (Vampir NG) for the two Russian multi-purpose landing ships (UDKs) of the Mistral type under construction in France.

                  The corresponding subcontract for the supply of these systems Sazhem received from the lead contractor for the construction of the UDC shipbuilding corporation DCNS. The correspondent was informed about this, ARMS-TASS was informed by the representative of "Soot".


                  "The delivery of the first system for installation on board the first ship will be carried out in 2013, the second - in another 6 months. Now our experts have begun to manufacture a" Russian "order," said the representative of Sazhem.

                  http://flotprom.ru/news/?ELEMENT_ID=123665
              3. seafarer
                seafarer April 29 2013 13: 51 New
                0
                Quote: Kars
                Mover: two Azipod propeller-driven columns (Rolls-Royce, UK)

                There is! Rather, it was: in 1987 on the destroyer pr.956 there were 2 screw-steering columns as thrusters (360 degrees). They allowed the ship to move forward from V to 6 knots.
            2. old man54
              old man54 7 May 2013 01: 44 New
              0
              "... but this is how it will work out with Juan Carlos ..."

              please explain what it is about?
        2. lonshakovpetr
          lonshakovpetr April 22 2013 22: 18 New
          0
          yes ... and so much money already fucked up request
  • 123dv
    123dv April 22 2013 08: 58 New
    +4
    The article is good, informative and interesting.
    But, already paid, as they say.
    1. Ghenxnumx
      Ghenxnumx April 22 2013 11: 46 New
      +6
      Quote: 123dv
      The article is good, informative and interesting.
      But, already paid, as they say.

      Nothing prevents us from acting like the same geyropets with us - to take and abandon the Mistrals, as they are from numerous agreements, and as far as I remember, the money has not yet been given in full. And we ... for politics, let the treasurers go to the forest, everywhere they put crowbars into the wheels, so that, for sure, and you clatter with them, you must first observe the interests of your country and your people, and not of someone else's. soldier
  • Rus86
    Rus86 April 22 2013 09: 07 New
    +1
    Politics she is so ...
  • common man
    common man April 22 2013 09: 34 New
    12
    One thing is not clear to me. How can Mistral be the headquarters ship? Previously, the squadron headquarters was located either on the most powerful, protected ship, such as an armadillo, or on a small, high-speed cruiser. And here. The largest ship of the squadron. with the largest EPR, the slowest, without means of self-defense is the headquarters. This is some kind of collective coffin. Given the current (quantitative) state of the Russian fleet, the entire squadron will only protect headquarters. And the rest is sideways.
    1. not good
      not good April 22 2013 12: 49 New
      +5
      It’s specially that the enemy wouldn’t be very tense where to look for headquarters. Yes, and it will sink faster, fewer targets on the locator. Taburetkina there - ON REY.
      1. dmitreach
        dmitreach April 22 2013 17: 37 New
        +2
        But seriously? Without fussing? Let it be known to you that in the USSR the General Staff of the Navy had a bunker from the use of nuclear weapons. Here is such a "land-underground" fleet ... In this sense, a submarine at sea will not help.
        However, the Navy is not all part of the strategic nuclear forces. Only 3 generations of submarines 667 Dolphin / Squid, 955 Borrei and one 941 Shark. The rest of the fleet, even Kuzya and Peter, are not part of the strategic nuclear forces. How many times can we say that the fleet will have richer tasks!
        Previously, the squadron headquarters was located either on the most powerful, protected ship, such as an armadillo, or on a small, high-speed cruiser.

        Do we have a ship with an amphitheater of 900 square meters, a powerful server, 160 cable computer posts, 6 ADSL networks, satellite communications and a huge info bus? Or do Interkom-communication systems, at conferences in the General Staff of the General Staff, have a “made in Russia” label? In addition to “chopping up” in battlefield 4, there were also “tablet players” who can be replaced by multimedia. Just don’t say that if you use nuclear weapons, the best calculator is abacus.
        1. Aleksys2
          Aleksys2 April 22 2013 19: 25 New
          +2
          Quote: dmitreach
          Do we have a ship with an amphitheater of 900 square meters, a powerful server, 160 cable computer posts, 6 ADSL networks, satellite communications and a huge info bus? Or "Interkom" -connection systems, at conferences in the General Staff,

          We do not have such a fleet. Once again, especially for you, I repeat that it’s too curly to put the entire Navy Commander-in-Chief on the Mistral for the sake of an order of 10 ships.
          1. dmitreach
            dmitreach April 22 2013 19: 56 New
            +1
            what is all? straight all-all? from all four fleets?
            just now in Srezdezemka 17 pennants were splashing around ... there the headquarters was FINALLY NOT NEEDED AT ALL.
            Iron logic. They did manage without Mistral ... So keep Alexis the second.
            1. Aleksys2
              Aleksys2 April 22 2013 23: 24 New
              0
              Quote: dmitreach
              just now in Srezdezemka 17 pennants were splashing around ... there the headquarters was FINALLY NOT NEEDED AT ALL.

              Yeah, 17 pennants, of which half of the recreation center, and a third of tugs, need a headquarters of as much as 200 snouts. Do not tell my slippers.
              In all fleets, only 83 pennants can go to sea, of which 20 landing ships and 23 pl. Following your logic, you need to collect all of them in Middle-earth, add a couple of Mistrals to them, put the entire commander-in-chief and headquarters of the Navy there, add the command and staffs of all fleets and scare NATO with this formidable and powerful fleet. Great! Taking off my hat.
              1. dmitreach
                dmitreach April 22 2013 23: 55 New
                0
                gorgeous.
                let's dismiss all the warlords to hell with the sea, since everything is so *** not sweet? Well, except for the strategic nuclear forces ...
                1. Aleksys2
                  Aleksys2 April 23 2013 00: 11 New
                  +2
                  Quote: dmitreach
                  let's dismiss all the warlords to hell with the sea

                  Who’s talking about something, and naked about the bathhouse ... I’m tired of hammering you one simple thesis, now, I emphasize NOW, we don’t need UDC as a class, because we have big problems with the Navy, we have just enough ships of the 1st and 2nd ranks . The highways are now redundant, we are not going to attack anyone, we are not going to make landings a la landing in Normandy. Now we need cruisers, BOD, destroyers of the ocean zone, and as much as possible, we need to restore the fleet. What is the use of buying new technologies if we cannot apply it in our production? We need to build and modernize the shipyard, and we spend money on an overseas toy that is absolutely useless for the fleet in its current state. I am not against UDC, I am not against Aircraft carriers, just "every vegetable has its own time." This is what I’m talking about, and not that we don’t need UDC at all, we need it, but not now.
                  1. dmitreach
                    dmitreach April 23 2013 00: 29 New
                    -1
                    I'm tired already to grind one simple thesis to you,

                    Bird? Have a rest. Take care of your head.
                    shipyards - are building.
                    moorings - modernize.
                    ships build the same, albeit slowly.
                    This is what I’m talking about, and not that we don’t need UDC at all, we need it, but not now.

                    And before the "tomorrow" Syria may not hold out.
                    1. Aleksys2
                      Aleksys2 April 23 2013 01: 14 New
                      -2
                      Quote: dmitreach
                      And before the "tomorrow" Syria may not hold out.

                      And Mistral Syria will certainly wait. Want to fight in Syria? Get a visa and go, why do you need Mistral in Syria? A bird, not a bird, certainly not a Chukchi.
                      1. dmitreach
                        dmitreach April 23 2013 01: 35 New
                        0
                        A bird, not a bird, certainly not a Chukchi.

                        you will not praise yourself, nor will anyone praise yourself.
                        You’re going in a drastic course, comrade -
                        - tired thesis simpler

                        the opus about “tired of hammering,” I squealed. “Will go into the history of anal smile author burn ezche! laughing
                2. common man
                  common man April 23 2013 21: 40 New
                  +1
                  Allow me to continue the thought. Maybe someone will hear. A headquarters ship is definitely needed. But, in my opinion, this should be a ship of the "frigate" class, preferably outwardly similar to the serial ones, but without shock weapons, only means of self-defense of air defense, due to this expanded premises for the headquarters. "Looks like a serial" in order to get lost among other ships of the squadron for homing missiles. A small size will give relative cheapness.
                  1. dmitreach
                    dmitreach April 24 2013 00: 02 New
                    0
                    The idea is clear. Maybe the external "mimicry" under the serial frigate can take place, but it will be calculated by the intensity of some kind of radio exchange ... the specifics of the antennas ... (I don’t know how to say more precisely, I didn’t serve in warhead-4)
                    And then the “headquarters”, in the sense of technology, is (IMHO) a multimedia office:
                    amphitheater on *** sq.m.,
                    server
                    *** cable computer posts (as a civil call center, but with military specifics),
                    *** ADSL networks (at least not new, but here the question is for specialists),
                    satellite connection,
                    conference Room, (by the way on Mistral, the rooms are modular, they remind me of exhibition equipment. that is, you can fence off for three, and if necessary, rearrange the walls and chairs in the 30s .... however, sound insulation seems to me there - zero. as well as audibility .. .)
                    videoconference
                    plotters
                    instead of "mirroring" tablet computers - projectors and other multimedia ...
                    again, the presence of a "helicopter taxi" for admirals.

                    One fig - there work with data arrays. The fundamental difference from some "Control Center" metro / airport / is the presence of encrypted communication lines. As in the Ministry of Emergencies / MCC (RosKosmos) But the meaning is the same - work with a data array.
                    It is interesting (!) To mention that among the French the supply ship can perform the function of a supply ship !!! We had a Berezina, they had the French BRAVE Integrated Supply Ship. Articles at the link:
                    http://topwar.ru/20537-francuzskiy-korabl-kompleksnogo-snabzheniya-brave.html
    2. gauche
      gauche April 23 2013 06: 53 New
      +4
      Kule here is incomprehensible - this is the headquarters grave. For the same purpose - the enlargement of air bases - so that there were fewer goals.
  • Denis
    Denis April 22 2013 09: 37 New
    +4
    Russian Navy landing ships are not needed in principle
    Again, woeful experts?
    Thinking, of course, it’s difficult, but they need to think about how to wash their hands from expressions or defend mines, and not to put forward new concepts
    possible only in the form of joint operations by forces of Russia and NATO countries
    And what is so timid? In general, they need border protection, protection and nuclear weapons under control
    Can't understand this spring aggravation or betrayal?
    1. Batman
      Batman April 22 2013 16: 39 New
      +1
      civil servants - should be patriots ...
      1. not good
        not good April 23 2013 08: 54 New
        0
        But they (civil servants) are far from aware of this. laughing , and most believe that the state is them.
  • UFO
    UFO April 22 2013 09: 42 New
    +6
    And what prevents both tipi ships from being part of the Russian Navy? He set the article - why oppose it, it would be better to complement each other, we need each of these ships, fortunately we have 4 fleets, so that everyone has a “job” according to their specificity. For example: "Rhino" - SF, Kamchatka, BF; "Mistral" - Pacific Fleet, international operations, "demonstration of the flag." "Invaders" - these are the main enemies of the motherland !!! am
    1. not good
      not good April 22 2013 12: 54 New
      +3
      In vain, you neglect the article. The author reflected the view of the leadership of the Moscow Region, and they just didn’t care about any stools and don’t give a damn about their homeland. Yes, and unlike the old ones that we tested, they will have to build infrastructure under the Mistrals and start to grow old, and apparently they plan to repair them in France.
    2. Batman
      Batman April 22 2013 16: 42 New
      +2
      And what prevents both tipi ships from being part of the Russian Navy?

      Why do we need a floating coffin? What is the use of a barge with tanks and helicopters, if it does not reach the shore, they will fire at it and it will sink. And what an expensive coffin ... (This is me at the expense of the Mistral)
  • shark
    shark April 22 2013 09: 55 New
    +9
    "Rhinoceros" is certainly a pity. Such a ship and needles is complete nonsense. I would understand if 3,4,5 new hulls of such ships were laid in the shipyards. But no, it’s obvious. Refuse the already built in favor of the non-existent a sign of big headaches for people who made this decision. Even mortgaged and almost ready pr.11711 (displacement of 5000 tons) will not make up for the loss of such a ship. Will Mistral help? Yes, it’s unlikely. It seems to me that he will become a "funny ship." It is painfully tender and difficult to maintain. Not for us. Anyone will have to build something of their own. In the meantime, the old Tapirs and Rapugs1 are torn on Syrian transit ...
    1. not good
      not good April 22 2013 13: 00 New
      +5
      As one Navy officer said: "Mistral is a pink elephant, beautiful funny, but not needed in FIG." laughing
  • Val_y
    Val_y April 22 2013 10: 35 New
    +9
    By the way, I, too, was worried when I found out about Rhino, and when I found out about Mistral, I saw it all, it’s necessary to be such a Judas and a baptist seller (Serdyukov) angry
    1. Denis
      Denis April 22 2013 10: 55 New
      +2
      Quote: Val_Y
      it is necessary to be such a Judas and a baptist seller (Serdyukov)
      Nothing personal just business
      It seems like our likely friends say?
  • Fuzeler
    Fuzeler April 22 2013 11: 04 New
    0
    It’s interesting, but did we begin to build coastal infrastructure for such a ship, or will it always be on the roadstead?
    1. dmitreach
      dmitreach April 22 2013 15: 24 New
      +2
      started and are building. there are results.
  • Conepatus
    Conepatus April 22 2013 11: 05 New
    -1
    It seems that soon the South Pole will be divided. The “rhino” will go there for a very long time. And at Mistral the cruising range allows this to be done. The Mistral is being built for Russia based on operation in the northern latitudes, so it won’t be very flexible in Antarctica "Mistral" at the South Pole, this is at least a battalion of marines, a command post, a hospital + a certain number of transport and combat helicopters. And instead of tanks, you can bring an air defense division — at least protect a certain area from AUG of probable "friends"
    Does Russia have a ship that can do this? No, now it will be, even two.
    If Russia does not buy Mistral for these purposes, then this is a waste of money. IMHO
    1. shark
      shark April 22 2013 11: 25 New
      +8
      Does Mistral have ice protection? fortified case? Does he have the bow of an ice ship? IMHO an ordinary pampered box with which it is convenient to change oil to glass beads, somewhere at the mouth of the Niger River. What the French have always been doing))
      1. Conepatus
        Conepatus April 22 2013 12: 14 New
        0
        It was reported that the French will make improvements in the project, taking into account exploitation in the north. What they will do, one can only guess. There is no detailed information on this issue, so it remains only to wait when they build it.
        1. Denis
          Denis April 22 2013 12: 23 New
          +6
          Quote: Conepatus
          in the north. What they will do, one can only guess
          For starters, guess what is north for them
          1. Conepatus
            Conepatus April 22 2013 12: 31 New
            0
            To begin to guess what requirements for the alteration, Russia put forward. After all, it’s scary secret, some common phrases. It’s known that the Mistrals will be built, but with which they will be built, even Rogozin is like a fish on ice about it
          2. Ruslan67
            Ruslan67 April 23 2013 04: 13 New
            +1
            Quote: Denis
            For starters, guess what is north for them

            Like what? English Channel laughing
        2. smprofi
          smprofi April 22 2013 14: 43 New
          +2
          Quote: Conepatus
          What they will do, one can only guess.

          Well, "for the conditions of the North," they must make a heated runway / deck. and somewhere they burst into a tambourine, which supposedly will be strengthened the belt of the body in order to withstand not too powerful ice.
          but what surely will not happen is the ballast control system for the multi-tonnage ship of the Norwegian company L3Marin, which is available on the French BPC Mistral. either there will be no such system at all, or there will be a French one, which itself stands on class ships no higher than a destroyer.
          1. Conepatus
            Conepatus April 22 2013 16: 09 New
            +1
            And this is on the conscience of those who signed the contract.
    2. Captain Vrungel
      Captain Vrungel April 22 2013 15: 41 New
      +1
      How do you imagine this gentle French pleasure yacht for the Mediterranean Sea, with crazy sail, light draft, light hull, in the waters of the Antarctic. What will happen to him and the landing in the roaring forties, frantic fifties? The most favorable and safe navigation area for him, in calm, clear weather, 20 miles from the coast and 50 from the port of refuge, and preferably on dead anchors at the pier.
      1. Conepatus
        Conepatus April 22 2013 16: 53 New
        0
        And which UDC is adapted for such operating conditions? Name at least one.
        1. gauche
          gauche April 23 2013 12: 18 New
          +1
          Underwater nuclear with unlimited delivery range. The projects were at Rubin. Don’t ask just like that. On stupidly sawn and leaked to the west resources could be a series of them.
  • old rats
    old rats April 22 2013 11: 35 New
    +6
    why do you have to choose between them? why it is impossible to repair the Rhinoceros and pr.11711 to take the Mistrals (well, since it’s been paid)? it’s clear that repairs are expensive, but nationwide, it’s not so much ...
  • Professor
    Professor April 22 2013 11: 59 New
    +9
    I will continue the ideological line of the article, why have it

    when can you do so
    1. Denis
      Denis April 22 2013 12: 26 New
      +3
      Quote: Professor
      I will continue the ideological line of the article
      What about expediency?
      Unhappy zhopik so ugly (to conduct collective farm tuning) I will not, but I certainly can’t contain a Ferrari
    2. shark
      shark April 22 2013 13: 20 New
      +2
      On our roads, with our car services, with our gasoline, I personally would prefer a jopper. This is safer and cheaper than changing all of the above. Yes and we are not Europoids. Beautiful wrappers after the 90s are not very greedy
    3. Santa Fe
      April 22 2013 18: 49 New
      +3
      Quote: Professor
      I will continue the ideological line of the article, why have it

      Quote: Denis
      Unhappy zhopik so ugly (to conduct collective farm tuning) I will not, but I certainly can’t contain a Ferrari

      why go to the point of absurdity. Ferrari collective farm tuning
      someone likes this:

      but someone needs:
      1. Denis
        Denis April 22 2013 19: 06 New
        0
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        why go to the point of absurdity
        And what's the point of absurdity?
        By the way, you brought though completely different cars, but of the same class and price level. Absurdity was higher when extremes (and one pretty disfigured) were compared
        1. Santa Fe
          April 22 2013 19: 35 New
          0
          Quote: Denis
          By the way, you brought though completely different cars, but of the same class and price level. Absurdity was higher when extremes (and one pretty disfigured) were compared

          Actually, that's why I cited the Camry and the truck as an example. Normal machines for work and ...
      2. Professor
        Professor April 23 2013 07: 59 New
        -3
        Truck with a passenger car? You can compare a yacht with a landing ship. request
    4. postman
      postman April 23 2013 02: 05 New
      +3
      Quote: Professor
      I will continue the ideological line of the article, why have it

      The comparison is not correct.
      It is a luxury item, not
      [img] http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Dropped_spade.jpg/
      396px-Dropped_spade.jpg [img]

      [img] http://pridbay.com.ua/local/prodimg/Fiskars_telescop_131300_2.jpg [/ img]

      COMPARE NEEDS SO:




      Someone, some to someone, in some ways may be useful.
      And the ass (if needed) can be carried on the donkey.
    5. gauche
      gauche April 23 2013 12: 22 New
      -1
      It’s good to stir up co-religionists, pro ...
  • svskor80
    svskor80 April 22 2013 12: 32 New
    +2
    Quote: old rats
    why do you have to choose between them? why it is impossible to repair the Rhinoceros and pr.11711 to take the Mistrals (well, since it’s been paid)? it’s clear that repairs are expensive, but nationwide, it’s not so much ...


    I also think that there will be enough finance for both projects. And the goals of these ships are not completely identical. The mistral will serve for 5 years and it will become clear whether it is necessary to build the same, but in Russia or not.
    1. Batman
      Batman April 22 2013 16: 50 New
      0
      I also think that there will be enough finance for both projects. And the goals of these ships are not completely identical. The mistral will serve for 5 years and it will become clear whether it is necessary to build the same, but in Russia or not.

      You can still buy F-22, enough budget. after 5 years it will become clear whether it is necessary to build the same with us or not.
      ps. sarcasm
  • abc_alex
    abc_alex April 22 2013 12: 42 New
    +4
    Guys, everything is right and everyone is right, BUT! The producer of "Rhinos" in the USSR was Kaliningrad, which until recently was a miserable memory of the past. In addition, from 77 to 88, he issued 3 BDK. For 11 years.
    Judge for yourself how much such ships were needed in the USSR, if 775 units were built during the same period of the BDK project 19.

    True, the ships of this project were made in Poland. At the shipyard Stocznia Polnocna, in Gdansk.

    Therefore, now in Kaliningrad, the production of the BDK project 11711 "Ivan Gren", which is even larger than "775", is being launched.

    Well, as the "flagship" of the landing flotilla, Mistral is still preferable.
    This is in addition to the fact that today Rhino is nowhere to repair and rebuild.
    1. not good
      not good April 22 2013 13: 14 New
      +4
      The Yantar plant in Kaliningrad is more likely alive and ready to build large ships, but if orders continue to be given over the hill, then we’ll lose what remains. The one he finances and builds, a vivid example is the construction of the head pr.11711, which was delayed due to irregular financing. And the Mistrals are not flagships, but the upcoming hemorrhoid. Besides the Yantar, the management of the Severnaya Verf shipyard also declared its capabilities "(they also proposed the MO to Otkapitalit" Orlan "), but those who make decisions on the repair and construction of ships, apparently, more often think about their pocket than about their homeland.
      1. Conepatus
        Conepatus April 22 2013 13: 20 New
        0
        Because "Mistral" is so expensive that the "rollback" is big. And what repair is the rollback?
  • Goldmitro
    Goldmitro April 22 2013 13: 17 New
    +3
    <<< His colleague Mistral became a bargaining chip (sky-high) in a geopolitical game, a kind of payment for Russian-French cooperation. >>>
    Is it too expensive to pay us for the primitive Serdyukov-iPhone geopolitical games? And where is IT Russian-French cooperation, for example, in Syria?
  • smprofi
    smprofi April 22 2013 14: 36 New
    +2
    hmm ...
    On April 18, I posted almost the same material on another resource: http://nnm.ru/blogs/smprofi/vladivostok-budushiy-rossiyskiy-korabl/
    here the article says:
    - Mistral is able to take on a tank battalion - 40 MBT Leclerc or up to 280 units of trucks and light armored vehicles.
    - the premises of the personnel are designed to accommodate 450 marines (with the possibility of a short-term increase to 900 people).


    such figures, frankly prohibitive, are usually found in the materials of the apologists of BPC Mistral. it would be nice to get to the authority in the form of Jane's Navy International, but there is no access to the site. and not in print. confine ourselves to affordable, navyrecognition:
    http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=531
    up to 70 vehicles or 13 main battle tanks.
    They have accommodations for 450 to 700 troops.


    those. this site says the same about 13 MBT type AMX-56 Leclerc OR 70 pcs of wheeled vehicles OR their combinations.
    and with soldiers / marines it’s not 900, but only 700 at most.

    Well, with comfort on the BPC Mistral, of course, “more fun”, but, don’t bring it, you have to fight for survivability in case of fire, then all this “beauty” will be remembered not with an evil quiet word ...
    1. Denis
      Denis April 22 2013 19: 10 New
      +1
      Quote: smprofi
      will have to fight for survivability in a fire,
      This is alien to them, not for that they
      Imagine a stool on the mistral leading the squadron into battle
      Its to be in the sky
    2. gauche
      gauche April 23 2013 12: 37 New
      +2
      Yes, pepper is clear that this is a floating brothel, not a warrior! On this titanic, the smerdyukov planned to gently hold his female battalion - aki Dicaprio by the chest. He painted be - yes, too lazy to photoshop this macaque ... At this time, the headquarters boys would split into the grid in the counter-strike - the computers are there. The smartest would even crack the US Treasury. Until the first lyuli ... And there the feldmebel dumps in a helicopter (minisubmarine) with half-drawn breeches, the boys become heroes, the French chipper - a mass grave. And no one will raise it like Kursk. Why is it ...
  • Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk April 22 2013 14: 49 New
    +2
    The situation with the Rhinoceros resembles the situation with the Typhoons. They are outdated, they are really huge, it will take a lot of money to upgrade them. Mistral was bought due to the fact that he can receive modular construction technology with him (you must admit, a ship of this class is being built for 2 years, this is very impressive), the notorious Aegis and so on.
    1. smprofi
      smprofi April 22 2013 15: 02 New
      0
      Quote: Krasnoyarets
      RF will receive modular construction technology (

      in any form? is that fodder is being made for the Vladivostok DVKD at the Baltiysky Zavod, and a nose will be made for the Sevastopol DVKD? themselves unable to build?

      Quote: Krasnoyarets
      the notorious Aegis and so on.

      Aegis combat system is a non-French gringo system. and what is meant td? Sagem Vampir NG Infrared Search & Sight System? if so I want it, why just not buy it? Why pay the French to build the entire ship? and, by the way, Russian weapons and systems will be installed THENalone in Russia
    2. Aleksys2
      Aleksys2 April 22 2013 15: 47 New
      +1
      Quote: Krasnoyarets
      Mistral was bought due to the fact that together with it the Russian Federation can receive modular construction technology (you must agree, a ship of this class is being built in 2 years, this is very impressive)

      Hmm, say - we get the technology of modular assembly.
      Recall how the Kuznetsov was built:
      The fifth heaviest aircraft carrier of the USSR - Riga was laid on the slipway of the Black Sea Shipbuilding Plant 1 September 1982 years. For the first time, it differed from its predecessors by the possibility of taking off and landing traditional planes, modified versions of land Su-27s, MiG-29s and Su-25s on it. To do this, he had a significantly increased flight deck and springboard for take-off aircraft. The construction for the first time in the USSR was carried out in a progressive way of forming a body of large blocks weighing up to 1400 tons.
      Even before the assembly was completed, after the death of Leonid Brezhnev, on November 22, 1982, the cruiser was renamed in his honor “Leonid Brezhnev”. Launched 4 December 1985 years, after which its completion was continued afloat.
      Is there a modular assembly? Present. Laid on 01.09.1982/04.12.1985/3 - launched on 3/2/XNUMX, total XNUMX years and XNUMX months (certainly not XNUMX years, but also impressive).
      1. Professor
        Professor April 22 2013 15: 51 New
        -2
        Is there a modular assembly?

        Missing. There is a large section assembly.

        Laid on 01.09.1982/04.12.1985/3 - launched on 3/2/XNUMX, total XNUMX years and XNUMX months (certainly not XNUMX years, but also impressive).

        And how many years later did he stand at the wall? And when was admitted to the fleet?
        1. smprofi
          smprofi April 22 2013 16: 23 New
          +2
          Quote: Professor
          And how many years later he stood at the wall

          So DVKD "Vladivostok" from the French will be received in 2 years not at 100% readiness.
          And when WILL be accepted into the fleet - still the grandmother with a pitchfork for water on a low-level flight drew
          1. Professor
            Professor April 22 2013 16: 30 New
            0
            And you look when the Mistral was laid and when it was adopted, and others ...
            Mistral laid July 2003, launched October 2004, adopted February 2006
            Tonnerre laid down August 2004, launched July 2005, adopted December 2006
            Dixmude laid April 2009, launched December 2010, put into service January 2012
            1. smprofi
              smprofi April 22 2013 16: 55 New
              +1
              Quote: Professor
              And you look when the Mistral was laid

              once again: it will be completed in Russia. a nod towards the Direction Technique des Constructions Navales (DCNS) is not entirely appropriate here
              1. dmitreach
                dmitreach April 22 2013 18: 20 New
                +1
                The second multifunctional vessel for supplying offshore projects of the P70201 project, built by Russian and Finnish shipbuilders, was transferred to the customer on April 19, the Russian company Sovcomflot. The acceptance certificate was signed in Helsinki at the Arctech Helsinki Shipyard, a joint venture of the United Shipbuilding Corporation and the Finnish subsidiary of the South Korean concern STX.


                Consider this with supply vessels. Here the essence is the same. Just also the export of "non-cornerstone" military technology. (more precisely "double").
                in fact: the Finns, as our half-century partners in shipbuilding, have also joined the French, but in the background, the Koreans are the same.
              2. Professor
                Professor April 22 2013 19: 56 New
                -1
                The question is, what readiness will they bring him to Russia? IMHO percent 90-95. So long-term construction should not work.
                1. dmitreach
                  dmitreach April 22 2013 19: 59 New
                  0
                  With suppliers it seemed to go smoothly. (There was also high willingness) I think everything will be ok here too.
        2. atesterev
          atesterev April 22 2013 23: 40 New
          0
          Well, actually not a large section, but a block one, secondly, where would you drive the halves or quarters of the steamer built from? Were all the slipways filled, unlike now? Further, there was applied a high saturation of blocks with ready-made aggregate modules, so do not fart in a puddle! And the fact that the hull was docked not afloat, but on a slipway, so this is more a plus than a minus.
        3. gauche
          gauche April 23 2013 12: 42 New
          -1
          Duc therefore stood, yushushka, because they didn’t put a tagged Misha to the wall.
  • jayich
    jayich April 22 2013 15: 09 New
    +1
    No words alone emotions
  • smprofi
    smprofi April 22 2013 15: 21 New
    +5
    heh, but the Hunhuz, it’s not clear why, but they chose to purchase the Soviet-developed project 12322 Zubr MDKVP rather than go to Europe or wherever. 1 pc has already received, April 12, another is being completed.

    1. Conepatus
      Conepatus April 22 2013 16: 36 New
      +2
      So the "Bison" in the matter of Taiwan will be needed. But if Taiwan were separated from China by, say, 2000 miles, then China would buy other equipment.
      UDC is also building China, with its own project at its own shipyards.
  • sergius60
    sergius60 April 22 2013 16: 10 New
    10
    According to "Mistral":
    1. The French analogue of the Aegis system is ZENIT-9, because of it, by and large, the whole "mess was brewing."
    2. The technology of modular construction. Shipbuilders will understand, but others do not care. A historical example. The most successful purchase of an airplane license under Stalin? Li-2, aka DC-3, aka Dakota. On the "trailer" was the technology of the plasma-template method of manufacturing aircraft. After receiving this device by the order of the NKAP all aircraft were developed for this technology. Or do you think ONLY on enthusiasm how many planes were released into the war?
    1. postman
      postman April 22 2013 16: 26 New
      +4
      Quote: sergius60
      1. and 2.

      +
      for support in the Georgian "conflict" had to pay
      1. sergius60
        sergius60 April 22 2013 16: 33 New
        +4
        I agree.
        + different "downstairs", such as heat-sighting equipment. Yes, and FIG knows what else is on the trailer. If the "minke whales" after the conclusion of the contract began to hysteria (he himself read on the Pinsk site, the Franks were called pathological traitors of the "West" case, recalling de Gaulle) - then the comrades are on the right track.
        1. postman
          postman April 23 2013 01: 24 New
          +1
          Quote: sergius60
          If minke whales after

          And the "minke whales" can not do anything- France is the only country in which the products of the military-industrial complex-OWN patents.
          It is necessary to “be friends” with the French, BUT wisely essno.
      2. saturn.mmm
        saturn.mmm April 22 2013 23: 35 New
        +1
        Quote: Postman
        for the support

        And I already thought that only Dmitrich and the Professor would shoot back.
        It’s quite decent UDC, I’m crippled because of so many screams. Moreover, the construction of the second batch was postponed until 2016, it is reasonable to see the operation of the first and, if necessary, make changes.
        1. postman
          postman April 23 2013 01: 40 New
          +2
          Quote: saturn.mmm
          It’s quite decent UDC, I’m crippled because of so many screams. T

          I (personally) have no cries.
          It pays for everything in this world.
          Moreover, the French are not the worst option.
          SAGEM (and SNECMA = SAFRAN): Sigma-30,95, SaM146, LINS-100RS, Dixmude, VAMPIR-NG, optic masts and commander periscopes for submarines, FELIN V2.
          contacts of the 3rd kind of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and the Defense Ministry of the French Republic
          Agreement between the Government of the Russian Federation and the Government of the French Republic on the mutual protection of intellectual property in the course of bilateral military-technical cooperation
          FR = 1,6-1,7% (trend towards 1,3%) of GDP, RF - up to 3,2% (IFRI = very promising market)

          “The Russians are aware of their backlog, and this leads to a tightening of their position, - sure Tom Gomar. - When they saw how the French and British intervened in Libya, they realized that they themselves could not do the same. " That is all for several months and at low cost (several hundred million euros and no losses from NATO) conduct a diplomatic and military operation to overthrow the regime. Which is completely unlike the war in Georgia in August 2008.

          In accordance with previously signed agreements, Russian transport aircraft transported about 20 thousand tons of cargo from France to Afghanistan and back over the past year.

          I already wrote about space.

          The Russian Ministry of Defense is ready to allocate two IL-38 anti-submarine aircraft for these purposes. The French side is required to agree to be based in the Gulf of Aden. As a temporary base for Russian aircraft proposed French airfield in Djibouti. If France agrees to this, then up to five planes will be on duty in the area at the same time - two Russian and three French.

          =========
          Well, damn it, in the end it’s better to be friends with the French than with all kinds of 3,14 half pot sweat and others like it, HERE even though you get at least something for your money, not a “REPAIR” loan.
          1. Kaa
            Kaa April 23 2013 01: 56 New
            0
            Quote: Postman
            no casualties from NATO
            Unjustified optimism.
            "On September 9.09.11, a German military expert said in a closed meeting, citing reliable sources, that the loss of British intelligence in Libya is not 35 soldiers, as announced by the British Ministry of Defense. The numbers are higher and their accuracy is between 1 to 500 people. This and there is a main reason why the British government ordered its troops to leave Libya.
            Add to this, the death toll:
            - French forces between 200 and 500.
            - USA less than 200 people.
            - Qatar - more than 200 people.
            And these figures have not been announced in the media and are not even discussed (a well-known reception of the West from experience in Iraq and Afghanistan).
            But, obviously, Canada has the most losses. Dozens of missiles were launched by the Libyan army on the high seas on the ship Charlotte (Charlottetown). But the spokesman for the Canadian Department of Defense, Peter Mackay, said that there was rocket fire, but the ship received no damage. (probably a virtual ship).
            PS There is also data from other sources - that the loss of Qatar - more than 700 people.
            Of course, this picture of combat reports needs to be confirmed. And I think we will get more than once - REFINEMENTS of these losses. And for some reason I’m sure that the discrepancies will be insignificant. Because it is unlikely that the relatives of the victims will hide information. Although, on the other hand, if you “compensate”, and even with a hard currency ... - “the loss of a fighter,” no one can notice. The West is a trap, for the normal logic of man.
            Source: africanliberty.ivoire-blog.com
            1. postman
              postman April 23 2013 02: 15 New
              -1
              Quote: Kaa
              The numbers are higher and their accuracy is between 1 to 500 people.

              Just returned from the BND conference - this is not true, crap lol
              Libya: Losses of aggressors "http: // stalin-ist.livejournal.com / 237373.html reported that some German sources leaked into information about the real losses of NATO. Here is the link to this post http://africanliberty.ivoire-blog.com/archive/2011/09/09/le-vrai-bilan-des-perte
              s-de-l-otan-en-libye-qui-fait-reculer.html
              LJ is not necessary, LJ is zhoPA
              I know what 1500 (200) dead soldiers of ANY European country are.
              (It’s enough to look at the rescue of the downed bird / living isho by the medical services of the Netherlands) at DOP)

              Quote: Kaa
              Dozens of missiles were launched by the Libyan army on the high seas on the ship Charlotte (Charlottetown).


              HERE:
              - http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/charlottetown/1/1-s_eng.asp
              - http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/06/02/ns-hmcs-charlottetown-rockets.html

              - http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/06/02/ns-hmcs-charlottetown-rockets.html

              - http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/ol-lo/vol-tom-2/par1/charlott-eng.as
              p


              in a live Zhore they will write something else too, look at Malakhov + (or whatever they say "let them say"):
              Profession - blogger Vasya, Seryozha, Pedya - crap.
              I looked (once and got it), but with such aplomb and faith that I farted a hotz (probably from fear)

              Quote: Kaa
              Source: africanliberty.ivoire-blog.com

              This is not a source, but a crap, a word honestly.
            2. Ruslan67
              Ruslan67 April 23 2013 04: 18 New
              +1
              Quote: Kaa
              Relatives of the deceased are unlikely to hide information. Although, on the other hand, if you “compensate”, and even with a hard currency ... - “the loss of a fighter,” no one can notice. The West is a trap, for the normal logic of man.

              Even if they don’t, who will hear them? with their freedom of speech, our cuisines of the Brezhnev era are a tribune request
              1. postman
                postman April 23 2013 06: 04 New
                -2
                Quote: Ruslan67
                with their freedom our words

                Oh come on then smacking nonsense
                1. Ruslan67
                  Ruslan67 April 24 2013 04: 01 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Postman
                  Oh come on then smacking nonsense

                  If you do not understand sarcasm, I'm sorry hi I just did not put quotes request
                  1. postman
                    postman April 24 2013 18: 36 New
                    -1
                    Quote: Ruslan67
                    I just did not put quotes

                    I understand .....
                    I took it seriously.
                    I’m just 1966, I remember the "Brezhnev’s cuisines". I remember my essay at 9m (or 10m) about Hitlerite Germany (the road), I remember the TROYAK in social studies (in my opinion), the call to the Komsyuks.
                    >>>>>>>>>> Anecdote (already wrote on the top var)
                    > Carter meets Brezhnev.
                    Carter, well, L.I. - Well, you do not have democracy, there is no point.
                    L, And, (you can’t pass the saying, you’ll simulate it yourself): How is it not? What are you talking about?
                    K: Well, L.I., look anyone can go to the White House and shout Carter And he WILL NOT HAVE ANYTHING for this! Here.
                    L.I., Crap you carry Jimmy. We have the same anyone, absolutely anyone can go to Red Square and shout: "CARTER", and to him the same THERE WILL NOT BE ANYTHING. ALL! And you tell me there is no democracy. You stupid Jimmy, albeit Carrrter.
                    here
                    frets. but man which is minus (both of us)- Obviously, another 100%.
                    belay
          2. saturn.mmm
            saturn.mmm April 23 2013 16: 24 New
            +2
            Quote: Postman
            I (personally) have no cries.

            I agree, I did not quite correctly put it on the forum.
            And according to your comment, as they say, with whom you will lead from that and will be typed.
            1. postman
              postman April 24 2013 18: 39 New
              0
              Quote: saturn.mmm
              And according to your comment, as they say, with whom you will lead from that and will be typed.

              I have such a "disease", a sinner.
              but anyway, it’s BETTER to “get along” with the French than with Iraqis, Libyans and other Honduras.
        2. dmitreach
          dmitreach April 23 2013 18: 56 New
          0
          And I already thought that only Dmitrich and the Professor would shoot back.
          It’s quite decent UDC, because of what so many cries

          This is such a tradition. Even a habit since the 80s / 90s. Then "scold" was fashionable. Now someone is trying to build something, while someone habits out of habit, without delving into the essence.
    2. smprofi
      smprofi April 22 2013 17: 21 New
      +3
      Quote: sergius60
      The French analogue of the Aegis system is ZENIT-9, because of it, by and large, the whole "mess was brewing."

      and it’s nonsense. Gringos created their Aegis combat system not just as radar and means of displaying targets. but the corresponding weapon was made under this system.
      Zenith-9 - may be an analogue of Aegis. only with reference to the DVKD Vladivostok what will this system manage?

      1. dmitreach
        dmitreach April 22 2013 17: 57 New
        +4
        The French analogue of the Aegis system is ZENIT-9, because of it, by and large, the whole "mess was brewing."

        Think broader. Like Igor Korotchenko. Or TSAMTO
        On the whole, it can be stated that there are no problems for expanding bilateral military-technical cooperation at the level of the top political leadership of Russia and France. Now there is a study of issues of interaction at the level of specific firms. On the French side, these are Safran, Thales, Sagem, SNEKMA, Dassault, DCNS and several others.

        http://www.armstrade.org/includes/periodics/news/2011/0617/18358552/detail.shtml


        WHY build a whole ship, and not one, in France? isn’t it easier to buy a system?

        ohh .. ShchZ the French will sell their nyashki, for the darm ... "Keep your pocket wider" (C)
        Actually, initially, it was about ONE MISTRAL! Have you forgotten!? Here is only one trouble - the French did not fall for it ... Something like that and we Chinese are not burning with a desire for a sushka for sushki, piece by piece ... Strange, don’t you? smile
        1. smprofi
          smprofi April 22 2013 18: 03 New
          +1
          small clarification: Sagem (Société d'Applications Générales d'Électricité et de Mecanique SA) this is the group Safran
          1. dmitreach
            dmitreach April 22 2013 18: 12 New
            +1
            yes they are part of a group. I can’t figure out what to compare with us ... when one brand enters another. Well ... such as Kamins in Kamaz ... (although this is not quite right) They are like an "umbrella brand."
            SAGEM daughter SAFRAN.
          2. postman
            postman April 23 2013 02: 36 New
            +2
            Quote: smprofi
            this is the Safran group

            True, after unification SNECMA
            PS (by the way) I have a copier, a scanner, a printer, a fax from Sagem at my dacha - a killer thing.
            After the end of the powder in the cartridge, it requires the insertion of a card (like a credit card with a CHIP), otherwise it does not want to.
            The problem was solved, 750E received awards from German dealers of office equipment ...
            Note: this device was purchased at the sale of state property of state organizations in Germany, the killer thing is 100 years old at lunch, but it still works
            I don’t say about the mobile from S- ... the dog has been dragging me in the teeth for 12 years already - it WORKS still(must be taken away from the dog and charged)
    3. dmitreach
      dmitreach April 22 2013 18: 06 New
      +2
      2. The technology of modular construction.

      looks like that:
      “The hull of the French ship is built of steel sheets 3,2 * 16 meters in size, and our equipment allows you to cut only 3,2 * 12 meters,” explains Alexander Voznesensky, Director General of Baltic Shipbuilding LLC. "Accordingly, it was necessary to recalculate everything in such a way as to build a casing from our sheets. At the same time, we also had to take into account the lifting capacity of our cranes: all elements of the casing should be no heavier than 120 tons."

      And even here they didn’t pull it! I had to process it according to our realities ... Thank you now that it’s not on tracing paper, but in 3D ... But there are more seams anyway.
      1. smprofi
        smprofi April 22 2013 18: 21 New
        0
        why then do the stern do at the Baltic Plant? having fun?
        1. dmitreach
          dmitreach April 22 2013 18: 25 New
          0
          Grandmas share. Not in terms of theft, but in terms of the manager. You voyashite "nose", I "poop", both in profit.
          By the way, infa slipped that DCN had previously used Stocznia Remontowa, in Gdansk, as a subcontractor for the construction and equipping of the central and aft sections. Now it is them who "pushed". But once they did the whole project BDK775 ... (logs, in the sense)
          What pleases me personally. am He lived in Polonia, in Świnoujście and considered them friends and brothers ... (As a state, an ally.)
          To Colonel Birch. am
      2. postman
        postman April 23 2013 02: 27 New
        +1
        Quote: dmitreach
        looks like that:

        No, like this:
        http://www.baesystems.com/article/BAES_156335/iconic-section-of-queen-elizabeth-
        aircraft-carrier-ready-for-delivery? _afrLoop = 1012896707646000 & _afrWindowMode = 0 & _
        afrWindowId=null&baeSessionId=J5tpR14TmWxHbNtpYgrTvkN6PZyTW0y2TQTwQYjwhpkfQJnQcZ
        ZK!1696191086#%40%3F_afrWindowId%3Dnull%26baeSessionId%3DJ5tpR14TmWxHbNtpYgrTvkN
        6PZyTW0y2TQTwQYjwhpkfQJnQcZZK%25211696191086%26_afrLoop%3D1012896707646000%26_af
        rWindowMode%3D0%26_adf.ctrl-state%3D1bq8g5k5wq_4


        http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmselect/cmdfence/295/295.pdf[/ Img]
        и



        [img] http://navy-matters.beedall.com/cvfimages/cvf-thales-design.gif
        1. dmitreach
          dmitreach April 24 2013 00: 17 New
          0
          we are about the same thing. only I'm talking about an earlier stage - cutting metal.
  • dmitreach
    dmitreach April 22 2013 16: 46 New
    +6
    The article is interesting. Oleg, respect! hi But consider a few "BUT"
    It seems to me that you need to have some kind of "Sferokoninsky" modernization program for ships, ships and submarines. Just "stock". For this question will be eternal. Even when the intergalactic "Death Stars" appear. Technology will always have a "life cycle". And the question of the capital modernization of Ya'l Gorshkov / Vikramaditya will always pop up at sunset the service of such structures. (Even if they had done Gorshkov “for themselves” And! By the way! There, too, the French were drawing, Tales, it seems, I won’t remember on the move.) Of course, a set of actions will need to be rolled back. It would be better if they were "goldfish" (945 "Barracuda" and 945A "Condor"). Not the "Eagles" and not the "Horn". An alternative is a life cycle contract, which is what they came to in the Moscow Region. A new century, as it were!
    But.
    BDK pr.1174, all three, were put into operation, from the moment of laying more than 5-6 years ... Plus R&D. Decade!
    The country built them. Today, such cooperation of subcontractors is only just being restored. And a deep alteration will stretch for many years. No developments. There is no project. There is no desire to steal money in this way. Etc. 1174 is interesting, but restoration is not practical. Frankenstein - letting Ivan Gren be completed yet! am
    What do we have today? The most Syrian "something" that bakes aki pies is frigates of the Talwar type. 4000 tone ... A deep rethinking and development of the theme of the watchman pr. 11351 ("Petrel"). request A good boat gotos. It would be necessary to bake a dozen.
    Two plants make them. Amber and the Baltic Shipbuilding. Both plants of 3 pcs. have already passed (two contracts, in total - 6 pieces for India) and two more are being built. (For us) And this is for 13 years ... This is the only example of a serial Ship created in the last decade. (Boats do not count)
    On this, not joyful background, the problem is exacerbated eternal, cognitive dissonance, in the minds of the Admiral: "go there - I don’t know where, bring it - I don’t know what."
    What is one major project that has not been redrawn in the trash? Grena was laid in 2004 ... At Amber. If it weren’t for the Admirals, then Amber would have passed for a long time. But...

    The Mistral should be considered, not only as an attempt at cooperation, in the USC. Not in terms of "primitive" cut, but in terms of coordination of subcontractors. In the end, part of Mistral is done here, in Russia, at BaltZavod. This is a wise decision in its own way. I didn’t drink in the context, but in the context of “cutting corners,” where they were not weakly behind.
    Oleg, you mentioned that:
    shipyard STX owned by South Korea

    The fact is famous. This is not a true statement. More precisely, it is not true, in the context of the myth of the advantage of “Tokto” over “Mistral”.
    You need to be aware that all the major Intercontinental MegaCorporations have co-owners all over the world. From Hammer, who is now Chinese, to the bankrupt in the 80s, Wartsila, now owned by STX Europe, which is partly Korean. And Korea is one of the world Leaders, in shipbuilding. Take reality-real. We "Unions" (rockets) are able to build and fly to the ISS, like no one else in the world, and Korea - ships with a huge deadweight.
    1. dmitreach
      dmitreach April 22 2013 16: 47 New
      +5
      EXAMPLE:
      After the bankruptcy in the 80s, Wartsila became part of STX Finland, and it is part of STX Europe, which owns the shipyards in Saint-Nazaire, on which the French DCNS builds Mistrals for Russia with Alstom azipods, for which Wartsila diesel engines generate energy, but this is not the whole "Dom2." Further: STX Finland, which in turn has an Arctech Helsinki Shipyard Oy joint venture, which, like STX Europ, registered Koreans, has a joint venture established on an equal footing by the United Shipbuilding Corporation (Russia), where they built an icebreaking supply vessel " Vitus Bering "(adopted in March) and his sistership - Aleksey Chirikov (adopted almost literally" the other day ") and now, attention to the question: who is the boss in the shipbuilding world? Koreans? Straight "Indian cinema." what Not really. They have a share in the global shipbuilding industry. Not hilry, such a share as we are in the gas industry.
      Yes, such things ... This is a global trend, like McDonald's and Coke. I don’t like it, don’t eat, but the business is like that. Even our SaM146 engine (from PowerJet) and SSJ have the same cooperation scheme. This is the XNUMXst century, whether someone likes it or not. Competitors can move from the market, or they can build Gorshkov together (they put something from the French Thales).
      Such a time. request
      1. dmitreach
        dmitreach April 22 2013 17: 10 New
        +3
        Yes, I forgot to add ... I mentioned “Talwar” / “Petrel” in the context of the fact that for the same half a year, the French UDC Mistral bake ... See bookmark / descent / acceptance dates, 3 UDC vs Talwar / Petrel, in the last decade.
        1. UFO
          UFO April 22 2013 19: 16 New
          +2
          Great +++. And then we have some "Nelsons" already trying to blame "Mistral" for all the troubles of our Navy.
          1. dmitreach
            dmitreach April 22 2013 20: 01 New
            +2
            There is ... populism and hatred is taking place.
            1. UFO
              UFO April 22 2013 20: 44 New
              +1
              Apr 17 “Briefly on the state of the Pacific Fleet” tried to argue about the need for the “Mistral”, so the “all-protesters” (“Kavtorang”, “Odyssey” ...) raised such “dregs” that even now give the Japanese to the Far East. And arguments like "Mistral" belly will dispose on Shikotan during the landing of MP and other nonsense. I would rather, in cooperation with the French, Finns and South Koreans, build 4-6 destroyers of the Lafayette type with our weapons and other classes of ships. This would make it possible to quickly saturate the Navy with the necessary units, and not to whine about its current state. hi
              1. dmitreach
                dmitreach April 22 2013 20: 53 New
                +2
                I had a similar argument with olp, to the article: "The General Staff proposes to use the Mistral as headquarters ships."
                http://topwar.ru/24849-genshtab-predlagaet-ispolzovat-mistrali-kak-shtabnye-kora

                bli.html
                (It’s easier to search from the end.) So in the heading comment, I tried to collect all the nishtyaks that Mistral drags to the branch of the dispute. I am also considering this topic from the perspective of the Kourou Cosmodrome (French Guiana), that is, as Franco-Russian cooperation in the field of heavy industry.
                1. UFO
                  UFO April 22 2013 22: 42 New
                  +1
                  Ufff, read it! Yes, everything is correct, “on the shelves”, I don’t understand such subtleties, but I don’t see where +, and where-, I need to have “talent”. The theme of "Mistral" will still be raised on the site, so that you wrote there it’s nice to copy it every time for patriots, so that you don’t read any nonsense every time. good yes hi
                  1. dmitreach
                    dmitreach April 22 2013 23: 12 New
                    +1
                    thank you for rating. I now like the author’s article, in this case Oleg Kaptsov, to upload “comments”. for this, they created the site. hi
                    1. Aleksys2
                      Aleksys2 April 22 2013 23: 33 New
                      0
                      Quote: dmitreach
                      I now like the author’s article, in this case Oleg Kaptsov, to upload “comments”.

                      Yeah, as in the joke: "The Chukchi is not a reader, the Chukchi is a writer"
                      1. dmitreach
                        dmitreach April 23 2013 00: 01 New
                        0
                        start to be rude again?
                      2. Aleksys2
                        Aleksys2 April 23 2013 00: 14 New
                        0
                        Quote: dmitreach
                        start to be rude again?

                        And where? And in what? This joke is there, about Chukchi.
                      3. dmitreach
                        dmitreach April 23 2013 01: 57 New
                        0
                        Sure, not a problem.
                        A joke is so a joke. Here the joke was born about the "tired grinder of simple truths," apparently Uncle, not a bird. author, reshpekt. Burn it. laughing
  • postman
    postman April 23 2013 02: 56 New
    +1
    Quote: dmitreach
    After bankruptcy, in the 80s, Wartsila

    in early 1987, the Valmet and Wärtsilä shipyards were merged under the name Wärtsilä Meriteollisuus.
    in 1989
    STX Europe is a Norwegian holding company (15 shipyards in Brazil, Finland, France, Norway, Romania and Vietnam) it also owns: Kvaerner Warnow Werft GmbH (Wadan Yards)
    WÄRTSILÄ'S PROSPECTS FOR 2013 UNCHANGED

    Wärtsilä expects its net sales for 2013 to grow by 0-10% and its operational profitability (EBIT% before non-recurring items) to be around 11

    approx. in 1982 Wärtsilä "ate" SACM
    AMX-56 Leclerc installs a V-shaped 8-cylinder multi-fuel liquid-cooled diesel engine manufactured by the Finnish company Wärtsilä, model V8X 1500, developing a maximum power of 1500 hp. at 2500 rpm The V-8X is equipped with a Hyperbar turbocharger driven by a separate gas turbine engine.
    And the transmission
    And the mistral:
    - 3 x Wartsila 16V32 diesel generators with a capacity of 2.075 MW each
    - 1 x Wartsila 18V200 diesel generator with a capacity of 3.3 MW
    - Bow thrusters.
    1. dmitreach
      dmitreach 1 May 2013 01: 30 New
      0
      thanks for the addition.
      degree of integration in Europe - as in the USSR, at one time. He’ll break a leg if he tries to compile a list of minority shareholders (he would have to deal with large ones) ...
      SACM - who is this?
  • Batman
    Batman April 22 2013 16: 54 New
    -1
    In France, in general, a man can sleep with a man officially, what other Mistals from P.dor.v? cancel all orders, and build your ships !, from real Guys!
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN April 22 2013 16: 58 New
    +4
    As a shipbuilder in the past, I considered and believe that the pros and cons of restoring Soviet-built ships should be considered more carefully by our naval strategists. I do not believe that from scratch, starting from design, etc. cheaper to build a board than to upgrade an existing building with a new filling. And Mistral ?. Well, there is hope that in the agreements on them, we will really get some advanced technologies that are currently inaccessible to the Russian Federation. I would like to believe in it :)
  • Jurkovs
    Jurkovs April 22 2013 18: 25 New
    +2
    First, when signing the contract, it was specifically indicated that after the transfer of Russia, the Mistral will undergo a process of re-equipping with the systems that we usually put on warships. So Mistral will be armed even better than the Rhino.
    Secondly, the Mistral is equipped for over-the-air landing, and the Rhino must run up against the shore. The Americans have already abandoned this method for 30 years, but so far we have no choice but to demonstrate this in exercises.
    1. Aleksys2
      Aleksys2 April 22 2013 19: 33 New
      +2
      Quote: Jurkovs
      Americans have abandoned this method for 30 years

      Are you sure about that? 100%? Or is it solely your speculation?
      US command provides for a combined landing based on that two-thirds of the assault echelon forces land from the sea, and one-third - by helicopters in the depths of the PDO.
      The most likely edmp landing options:
      the landing of two regimental landing groups as assault landing forces, with two BDGr of each regiment landing from the sea, and the third - by helicopters; the third regiment landing group is a reserve commander of the division;
      the landing of two regiment groups as part of a naval assault, and the third as part of a helicopter assault, with two BDGr of each regiment representing an assault troop, and the third is a reserve of regiment commanders. Some units are allocated to the reserve commander of the division.
      Landing from the sea. Airborne squads with arrival in the landing area are initially located in the outer areas of the parking and maneuvering, appointed at a distance of 20-30 miles from the coast. Landing ships and transports have 8-10 cable gaps. In these areas, under the cover of naval artillery fire and air strikes, the final preparation of the landing for landing is carried out.
      With the suppression of PDO objects, landing ships and vessels move from external to internal areas of parking and maneuvering, located as close to the coast as possible (from 2 to 5 miles), where airborne landing facilities that move to waiting areas are launched, from where, on commands, they approach landing ships and vehicles for landing personnel and loading equipment on them.
      At the end of loading, landing craft proceed to the areas of wave formation of the landing craft located 500-1000 m from the parking and maneuvering area towards the coast. Launching of amphibious armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles with first-tier assault personnel is carried out from amphibious assault ships and other amphibious assault ships in the time required to reach their baseline.
      As waves are completed, they are sequentially directed from the formation area to the initial line located 1500-3000 m from the coastline, and, on command from the control ship (boat), the landing and landing equipment of each wave in the front line are sent to the designated landing points. The movement of the waves of the landing and landing means is carried out simultaneously to all battalion landing areas, and the last 1000 m they pass at maximum speed. The intervals between the landing equipment in one zone are 50-100 m.
  • Navy_SPb
    Navy_SPb April 22 2013 21: 26 New
    0
    With all limbs “FOR”, the old man should be left in the service. But objectively, it is necessary to conduct an examination of the appropriateness of its repair. For too long, the old man has come to a dull appearance. The modernization of Vikramaditya for the Indian Navy is proof of this. I personally communicated with the builders and they all were of the same opinion - ... building a new one is the same - cheaper.
    And so the old man, with his suitability, is a very good platform for modernization.
  • rapira99
    rapira99 April 22 2013 21: 37 New
    +6
    1. Background.
    I don’t understand - what does "tubaretkin" have to do with it. All dogs have already been hung on him. As far as I remember, the first mention of the Mistrals came after Putin’s PERSONAL communication with the French government. Next, under the visor. And the Serdyukov generals got a hat after finding out that they had made the preliminary calculations WRONG. As a result, due to an oversight of OUR generals and admirals, the price went up. And as the government’s policy doesn’t change, the construction program in France does not change.
    2. Economy.
    Where do you order to build ships of this kind? Yes, even at such times? And who will build? Who has this kind of specialists in our country? Yes, even closer to a large shipyard .. And how long will it take to design such a ship? And how much will it be built with us, even if all of the above? Where at once there are so many new equipment that we never made that suddenly appear? How long do we build nuclear powered ships? How long does the weapon take? How much time and money does it take to build a NEW shipyard, with all EQUIPMENT, and professional SPECIALISTS?
    3. Application.
    Well, the first - as in the song - "if war is tomorrow" .. Who knows - when we may need this or that ship or tank. And WHERE may be needed. How long is our border? And especially marine? And even the north does not bother me today. More questions to the Black Sea, and the Far East. I think no one needs to list a likely adversary.
    Landing a small percentage of the POSSIBLE coast in modern warfare is difficult without a powerful grouping. No ship will independently carry out such a mission. Or it’s a suicide. But to land on rocky islands, to throw a large military unit behind, to remove military units or civilians from unequipped shores, roughly speaking - evacuation, to overcome minefields, ... You can list a lot - supplying distant garrisons, changing border posts, helping those in distress ....
    And when an action occurs as part of a squadron, command should be centralized and mobile.
    4. Policy.
    Now let's recall WHAT happened when only Russia gave a hint about the purchase of Mistral. All howled - from Georgia and the Baltic states to the USA, Japan and Saudi Arabia. Up to hints from China-and for what Russia SUCH ships. There was pressure on France by different countries from the NATO bloc. They tried to PROHIBIT them from selling these ships to us. In this matter, even the French went on the principle - we sell what we read as necessary, and to whom we consider it necessary.
    Bottom line: Since now we FAST ourselves cannot build something like this - but we must plug the holes, we can not even shy away from someone else's. But PARALLELLY develop and build your own. There is no need to reinvent the wheel, and your own will come out over time. However, time is playing against us so far.
    And the article is, firstly, a superficial amateur, written on ambitions. And still these kinds of stats drive a wedge between society and the army. It is very similar to pressure, so that we simply abandoned such projects in principle. How many different articles on the subject of "Mistral" in a negative light - personally, I have already lost count. And everyone represents themselves as specialists ..
    PS Analyze, compare, and less emotion. New wars are a new tactic, application and technique ....
    1. postman
      postman April 23 2013 03: 01 New
      0
      Quote: rapira99
      . And still these kinds of stats drive a wedge between society and the army. It is very similar to pressure, so that we just abandoned such projects in principle

      In-in, to the point, this "author" has already not been accused of anything. And yet- HE is VERY DOES NOT LOVE Aircraft carriers.
      and battleships
      and .. well, etc.
      and RIEE does not understand how much (all plutonium dioxide wants to find)

      Quote: rapira99
      And still these kinds of stats drive a wedge between society and the army.

      Here you are something too sophisticated .. Kaptsov and wedge m / y by society and the army .......
      And for koment, of course + (from me)
  • Naval
    Naval April 22 2013 22: 28 New
    +1
    If with the first ship, which will be based in Vladik, everything is at the very least clear, next to Japan, Korea, theoretically, there is room for landing, then with the second, in Petropavlovsk ... ??? Really plan to conquer Alaska ?? laughing
    1. UFO
      UFO April 22 2013 22: 59 New
      0
      But Che, also an option, (joke). Although, in my opinion, it is better than Sakhalin.
      Quote: Naval
      there is where to land,

      It would not have to be planted (liberated) on its territory, there are so many shores. There are places in the Far East where it is easier to deliver troops by Mistral than by land transport.
    2. wax
      wax April 22 2013 23: 55 New
      0
      The second is either the Black and Mediterranean Seas (most likely), where it will be very unpleasant to our “colleagues”, or the north.
  • Marconi41
    Marconi41 April 23 2013 01: 11 New
    +1
    I completely agree with rapira99! Most of the writers here have very little to do with the fleet. Have any of you members of the forum were on Mitrofan ?! Has anyone seen the conditions in which landings should live? Now imagine that you have been in such conditions for more than a month! This time! Second: The idea with the Mistals was really good! Not from the point of view of Moscow Region, but from the point of view of its own economy. In Russia, there is currently only one shipbuilding plant for the production of large ships - the Star! Nikolaev went to Ukraine - try now to agree with the Ukrainians on the construction of a large ship! Yes, they will take off our last pants. And under the Mistral, the Admiralty Shipyard was being restored. And if the topic with the Mysters stalls, then the plant will not be built, and this is not only jobs, it is also large ships and not only military ones. And the third: Many here shout that the Mystras will not be in demand, but how many of you know what threats will arise in the future. Remember Georgia, an incomprehensible tension with Japan (the benefit of their tsunami happened - it didn’t reach us) again Syria. But one attack helicopter sometimes costs more than a platoon of tanks. Think formuchan, analyze !!! ... I will not be offended by the cons)))
    1. Aleksys2
      Aleksys2 April 23 2013 01: 18 New
      +1
      Quote: Marconi41
      And under the Mistral, the Admiralty Shipyard was being restored.

      And he that was blown up?
      Today, Admiralty Shipyards OJSC is one of the largest manufacturing enterprises in St. Petersburg. With the number of production personnel 0,4% of the total number of people employed in the industry of the city, shipyards provide the creation of almost 1% of the gross product of the region.

      To date, the company has built more than 300 submarines of various projects (41 of them nuclear), including 37 for export; 70 deep-sea and underwater vehicles, a series of 8 tankers of project 05-55 with a deadweight of 47 tons for Sovcomflot, 400 ice-breaking fire-fighting tugs of project 2-43 under the Sakhalin-70 program. The construction of a series of two unique reinforced ice class tankers of the R-2 project with a deadweight of 70046 tons - Mikhail Ulyanov and Kirill Lavrov was completed. On September 70, 000, the acceptance certificate of the "Consul" autonomous deep-sea vehicle (AGA) was signed with a diving depth of 9 thousand meters.

      Currently, the facilities of the enterprise are fully loaded - a number of contracts for domestic and foreign customers are being successfully implemented at the shipyard. Two series of six submarines are under construction: project 636.1 for foreign navies and project 636.3 for the Russian Navy. Service was performed on the fourth-generation submarine of project 677 (Lada) St. Petersburg. Currently, the company is conducting mooring trials on the Akademik Treshnikov scientific expedition vessel, which is being built for the Russian Antarctic expedition. The rescue ship Igor Belousov with the Bester-1 deep-sea rescue vehicle on board is also under construction.

      What kind of recovery are we talking about?
      1. Marconi41
        Marconi41 April 23 2013 02: 17 New
        +1
        Well, compare the sea tug with Mistral! Or an oil barrel with a warship! I talked with the shipbuilders themselves and they almost unanimously say that they can’t build large ships (in particular nuclear icebreakers). The plant needs to be modernized, there are no personnel, etc. And for the construction of the Mystres, it was planned to build additional slipways and dry docks. In addition, when building the French, it was planned to use their engineers, on which our shipbuilders could get the most valuable - EXPERIENCE!
  • Marconi41
    Marconi41 April 23 2013 01: 21 New
    +1
    In addition, I think that we should not shy away from foreign technology that we ourselves cannot build. Remember, the legendary Russian ship Varyag was built at American shipyards, and became a legend in Russia!
    1. Denis
      Denis April 23 2013 02: 29 New
      0
      Quote: Marconi41
      "Varangian" was built at American shipyards, and became a legend in Russia!
      His feat and his TTX are two big differences.
      The ship was almost new, I hadn’t managed to show myself in operation yet, and there it was, there weren’t armored shields at the guns and problems with boilers.
  • Onil
    Onil April 23 2013 01: 40 New
    0
    None of these ships will be sent to the polar latitudes. They are for the Black Sea Fleet. All the information about Pacific Fleet is pure disinformation to reassure a potential enemy. The author did not indicate the main reason for the cancellation of pr.1174-uneconomical GEM.
  • postman
    postman April 23 2013 01: 58 New
    +1
    Quote: Authorl
    For comparison: the purchase of each Mistral cost Russia 800 million euros!

    Dear author thinks, how would I say, Schaub does not offend? narrow-minded and pure tries on accounting, small town, I would say (Accountant, my dear accountant, well, etc.)
    What is 800 Euro for Russia? Ugh.

    TOTAL 51 km of the Don highway

    More c3,14 (well, further it is clear), however, they will be communized.

    1. "Mistral": It resembles a Swiss knife with only one difference: you can use several blades at once »

    2.08.08.08- (already written) - we must thank
    3. Better on the French than on Yasser Arafat
    4.France-Russie: amies ou ennemies? /Marianne - 32, rue René Boulanger - 75484 Paris cedex 10 - Tel: +33 (0) 1 53 72 29 00 - Fax: +33 (0) 1 53 72 29 72
    5. aerodrome in Djibouti.
    6. Gearbox from Leclerc
    7.SAFRAN (Sigma-30,95, SaM146, LINS-100RS, Dixmude, VAMPIR-NG, optic masts and commander periscopes for submarines, FELIN V2, space)
    8. The French are generally decent people (of which the Tao there, with gays and adoption, seemingly blown up the current ...)
    9. The Russian Empire remained due to France, but if we are the heirs of great ancestors ...
    At least so repay debts.

    10,11,12 and so on.

    Well, Mitrofan Enko, 99% sure, had not Serdyukov (and Shoigu too), they probably would have saved. but this question is not to the French and not to the TTX / cost of Mistral
    crying
    1. dmitreach
      dmitreach April 23 2013 02: 25 New
      +1
      It's funny Fiercely plus. laughing
      1. postman
        postman April 23 2013 02: 30 New
        0
        Quote: dmitreach
        It's funny Fiercely plus.

        Come on....
        Calvados + a break in WOT, and the desire to Ya (ndex) kick Comrade Oyu Kaptsova.
        you don’t have time to read everything and write, write, even more so during movement
        1. dmitreach
          dmitreach April 23 2013 02: 33 New
          +2
          Calvados ... mmm .. drinks (tea)
          Yes, I write in the comments a lot, rarely to "FOR" Mistral.
          1. postman
            postman April 23 2013 02: 43 New
            0
            Quote: dmitreach
            Calvados ... mmm .. drinks (tea)

            Paris, morning, bistro (from the Cossacks went ...) old lady grannies in hats ... mmmm.
            Calvados super- I recommend it to everyone: Calvados Pays D'AUGE (Originel- Anaturel pereApple Spirit) Wonderful thing.
            / The son of a younger brother turned 9, he is at school tomorrow, together with his wife good ) and we need tatarampo ... to drink nadot (the product is spoiled, very fragrant)
            1. dmitreach
              dmitreach April 23 2013 03: 52 New
              0
              good I envy. laughing Congratulations on my son’s birthday!
              Suddenly you’ll be in the area of ​​the UDC (and not just in Paris), make a couple of photos for those who are not in France laughing
              1. postman
                postman April 23 2013 04: 03 New
                +1
                THX.
                Will send .....
  • super-vitek
    super-vitek April 23 2013 22: 47 New
    0
    It remains to "Eagles" to cut the metal, and "aliluyu" the Russian Navy !!! How tired of these creatures! Grabbers, thieves, Traitors !!! Putin to ask the question 25.04.13, interesting to answer!
  • jjj
    jjj April 24 2013 01: 27 New
    0
    And for some reason it is thought that after a certain time we will resell Mistral from the real customer. They have no use in our fleet. And expensive to maintain, however
  • antikilller55
    antikilller55 April 24 2013 07: 43 New
    0
    It’s still a shame for the state, when we awaken first of all to think about our interests and about our REAL friends of the army and navy.
  • zhe602
    zhe602 19 November 2013 00: 46 New
    0
    Sorry: great BDK !!!! There are not many analogues abroad
  • storm
    storm 16 January 2018 21: 07 New
    0
    In principle, the repair of the BDK should be 5 times cheaper than a cap. repair of a similar displacement missile cruiser, pr. 1164, since the BDK will account for 90% of the cost of modernization and repair on the hull and power plant, and the Cruisers 20% hull. and the rest is the power plant and weapons ...