Model of flooding and reasons for the death of the squadron battleship "Oslyabi" in the Battle of Tsushima

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Model of flooding and reasons for the death of the squadron battleship "Oslyabi" in the Battle of Tsushima

As a result of the discussion of the previous article, it became clear that there was a need to adjust the data presented in it.

Some errors


There are three of them:

1. The moment that changes the list of the Oslyabya by 1 degree is more like 883 ton-feet, and not 976 ton-feet, which I adopted based on the model of the Borodino-class battleships.

2. My assumption that the Oslyabya did not have a trim by the stern before the battle is considered unacceptable: sailors usually loaded the ship so that the stern sat in the water slightly deeper than the bow, which improved seaworthiness. Therefore, for further calculations it is accepted that the Oslyabya had a trim by the stern of 2,5 inches before the battle. Accordingly, the point at which the living deck adjoined the ship's stem was 6,35 cm above sea level.

3. My assumption that at the moment of the failure of the Oslyabya, its stem sank into the water "up to the hawse holes" by 2,438 m, that is, to the height of the living deck, was considered overly optimistic. Therefore, in further calculations I am guided by the assumption that at the moment of failure, the battleship's stem sank one meter more, that is, 3,438 m from the living deck, and taking into account the trim by the stern - by 3,5015 m (3,438 m + 0,0635 m) from the pre-battle state of the ship.

Taking these adjustments into account, the amount of water in the battleship's coal pits, necessary for the Oslyabya to have a list of 12-15 degrees, was reduced from 320,8-404,6 tons to 277,9-350,4 tons. However, even these values ​​seem maximum, if not excessive.

First. I did not take into account at all that Sherbachev 4th, who observed the failure of the Oslyabya from the stern turret of the Orel following in front of him, could have indicated and, most likely, did indicate the list at the moment of the doomed battleship's rotation. And this gives a significant correction to the calculations.

At the moment of the rudder shift, the ship acquires a small list in the direction of the turn. But this list is only active during the rudder shift – as soon as the ship begins to turn, it acquires a list in the opposite direction. The magnitude of this list can vary, as it is determined by many parameters, including, but not limited to, the ship's speed and the radius of the turn. But whatever the "circulation" list, it is always there.

During the rudder shift, the Oslyabya slightly reduced the list to port, but then, upon starting the turn, on the contrary, increased it. Therefore, it should be assumed that before the turn, the ship's list was no more, and most likely even less than 12 degrees. The list of 15 degrees could have formed only at the moment of the turn: if it had been like that before it, then during the turn, the water should have flooded the lower gun ports of the Oslyabya, and the ship would have capsized. Consequently, the list of the Oslyabya before the start of the failure could well have been 9-10 degrees or even less, and not at all the 12 degrees that I took as the minimum value.

Second. I most likely underestimated the effect of the flooding of the Oslyabya in the bow, below the living deck, on the list. The thing is that my calculation method is very simple: taking as initial data the presence of a list of 12 degrees in the Oslyabya, I determined how much of this list was created by water on the living deck of the battleship (taking into account the above corrections, it turned out to be 3,65 degrees and 4,6 degrees with a list of 15 degrees), then assumed that the water that "leaked" into the bow compartments below the living deck provided another half a degree of list. In total, it turned out that the flooding in the area of ​​the coal pits formed 12 - 3,65 - 0,5 = 7,5 degrees of list, for which, in fact, taking into account the new input data, 277,9 tons of water would have been needed.

But the whole point is that as a result of changes in the initial data, the amount of water below the Oslyabya's living deck to ensure trim "by the hawse holes" increased sharply, amounting to 162-199 tons in the most realistic scenarios. A list of half a degree is provided by only 35 tons of water, whose center of gravity is removed from the centerline by 3,85 meters. Considering that water through cracks and damaged ventilation on the living deck flooded primarily the compartments on the left side, and the water in the under-turret compartment also flowed toward the left side, to which the battleship was listing, it can be expected that these masses of water gave both 1,5 and 2 degrees of list, and possibly more. Let us also take into account that in a normal case the list of ships during circulation is at least 1-2 degrees, as well as the fact that the damaged Oslyabya cannot in any way be considered a “ship in a normal state”, which is why its last circulation could have given a greater degree.

In view of the above, with the Oslyabya listing at 12-15 degrees, which was observed by Shcherbachev IV, 4-3,65 degrees were "formed" by water flowing onto the living deck in its forward part, and another 4,6-3 degrees could have arisen due to water entering the forward compartments below the living deck and due to circulation. Taking into account the above, the amount of water in the coal pits, necessary to form the observed list of the ship at 5-12 degrees, could well have been only 15-154 tons.

Accordingly, the most realistic option is the assumption that the mass of water in the coal pits, which participated in the formation of the Oslyabya list at the time of the latter’s failure, but before the start of circulation, was in the range of 154-278 tons.

But why such a reservation - "water that participated in the list formation"? The fact is that by the time of the failure on the Oslyaba, counter-flooding of the corridors on the starboard side was carried out, as a result of which part of the weight of the water in the coal pits and adjacent rooms was compensated and did not participate in the list formation to the port side. For example, 270 tons of water could have entered the coal pits and adjacent rooms, of which the effect of 70 tons was compensated by 70-80 tons of water received as a result of counter-flooding.

That's all about the Oslyabya's list. Let's move on to the trim.

About the trim of the Oslyabya and the reasons that caused it


As I wrote earlier, all the flooding of the Oslyabya can be divided into three zones:

- 1st and 2nd compartments of the living deck (Zone No. 1);
- Forward compartments under the living deck (Zone No. 2);
- Coal pits and adjacent rooms (Zone No. 3).


It is known that as a result of a 12-inch shell hitting the area of ​​the 1st compartment of the living deck, water gained access not only to the 1st, but also to the 2nd compartments, which gave both of them free communication with the sea. However, such damage in itself could not have submerged the bow of the Oslyabya in the sea up to the hawse holes.

Let's conduct a small thought experiment. Let's take the squadron battleship Oslyabya and fill its bow compartments No. 1-2 on the living deck with water completely, right up to the ceiling. What will happen in this case?

The shape of the compartments along the specified length is similar to a triangular prism with a volume of roughly 654 cubic meters, which, taking into account the density of sea water of 1,025 tons per cubic meter, gives 670,6 tons. The intake of such a quantity of water would increase the draft of the Oslyabya by almost 13 inches, or more precisely, by 32,6 cm. Using the rule of similarity of triangles, we will determine the center of gravity of this water - it will be located from the 0th frame towards the stern by approximately 21,8 m. At the same time, the center of gravity of the Oslyabya was 4,74 feet from the midship to the bow, accordingly, the center of gravity of the received water would be located from the center of gravity of the ship by almost 137 feet.

In this case, the water received on the living deck would create a force equal to 137 * 670,6 = 91 ton-feet (since I calculate with a large number of decimal places, but do not write these decimal places in the article, the calculator will show a slightly different figure), and will cause a trim by the bow of almost 851 inches or 80,4 cm. Accordingly, the stem of the Oslyabya would have immersed by 204,2 + 204,2 = 32,6 cm, never reaching the level of the battery deck, which rose above the living deck by 236,8 cm. It is quite obvious that in this case, a certain part of the 243,8st and 1nd compartments of the living deck would have remained above the water (highlighted in red on the diagram)


Which, of course, is physically impossible. At the same time, according to our estimates, the stem of the Oslyabya sank into the water by more than 3,5 m (6,35 cm of the elevation of the living deck above the sea due to the trim by the stern + 243,8 cm of the height of the interdeck space to the battery deck + 100 cm from the battery deck). Consequently, for the Oslyabya to sink into the water up to the hawse holes, the flooding of the living deck alone could not have been enough.

In fact, if the damage to the Oslyabya had been limited to water entering the living deck, the battleship would not have been in any danger: by analogy with the Peresvet, which received similar damage in the battle in the Yellow Sea, it would have taken on a layer of water of approximately 1,5-2 feet (46-61 cm) onto the living deck and continued the battle, getting off with an insignificant (measured in tens of centimeters) trim.

Interdependence of floods


The sinkings of the Oslyabya are closely interrelated. Each new ton of water pouring into the lower deck and hold compartments (zone No. 2) led to an increase in draft and trim, thereby increasing the flow of water onto the living deck (zone No. 1). But as a result of the increase in list, the water on the living deck and in the coal pits (zones No. 1 and 3) spilled over to the left side, their center of gravity shifted, thereby creating an additional list.

Each new ton poured into the 10th and 12th coal pits (zone No. 3) also increased the draft (which increased the flow of water onto the living deck in zone No. 1) and created a list to the left side (which contributed to the overflow of water to the left side on the living deck and in the compartments below it in zones No. 1-2).

These relationships are taken into account in my calculation as follows:

Step 1. It is assumed that the trim of the Oslyabya increased by 3,5015 m at the time of its failure.

Step 2. An increase in the Oslyabya's draft due to flooding in the area of ​​the 10th coal pit and counter-flooding was determined. Since the exact mass of the incoming water is unknown, we make a calculation for each value from 300 to 700 tons of water in 100-ton increments. In this case, we assume that out of the incoming 300-700 tons, 277,9 tons had an effect on the list and trim (the remaining mass of water partially came in during counter-flooding, and partially was balanced by counter-flooding). Naturally, all 300-700 tons of water retained their effect on the draft.

Step 3. We determine the volumes and mass of water on the living deck for each of the values ​​calculated in accordance with Step 2 and taking into account that the ship's stem, in accordance with Step 2, must be submerged in water by 3,5015 m.

Step 4. During Step 3, it turns out that the amount of water received on the living deck and in the area of ​​the 10th coal pit is not enough for the Oslyabya to sit down with its bow at 3,5015 m. Accordingly, we calculate the amount of water that should have entered the compartments of the lower deck and the hold to ensure the required trim.

The calculations are certainly very simplified. But, unfortunately, without having any drawings of the Oslyabya, or the ability to calculate the volume occupied by its structures and equipment in the compartments, or, most importantly, an exact understanding of where exactly and in what quantity the water spread, it is impossible to perform accurate calculations according to all the rules of shipbuilding science. On the other hand, the simplifications I use should not fundamentally change the overall picture of what happened to the battleship.

The resulting figures are:


The most realistic options are 1-3, according to which the mass of water that entered the coal pits, adjacent rooms and received as a result of counter-flooding is 300-500 tons. Accordingly, in the bow compartments below the living deck of the Oslyabya there were 162,7-199,3 tons of water.

In this case, I write "there was water" and not "water entered". Why? Because, without a doubt, much more water entered the bow compartments of the Oslyabya below the living deck, but some of it was pumped out by turbines, as V. N. Zavarin (or is it V. N. Zavorin?) writes:



I opened the drain valve and the water went into the hold, then I started the turbines.

Accordingly, in the bow compartments below the living deck of the Oslyabya, at the time the battleship was disabled, there were only 162,7-199,3 tons of water, but significantly more entered, since some of the water that had flowed into the compartments was pumped overboard.

The above calculations and eyewitness accounts allow us to reconstruct the picture of the death of the Oslyabya with acceptable accuracy.

Consequences of hit #1


A twelve-inch shell hit the area of ​​the 1st compartment of the living deck:

1. Opened access for water not only to the 1st, but also to the 2nd compartment, since its rupture damaged the watertight bulkhead between them. As a result of this hit, the living deck from the 0th to the 30th frame, that is, over a distance of more than 30 m, turned into a kind of "scoop" directed towards the ship's movement and "scooping" water through the hole.

2. Damaged the living deck and ventilation system, allowing water to enter the rooms below the 1st and 2nd compartments of the living deck. Moreover, the damage to the deck and ventilation was so significant that the crew of the Oslyabya could not cope with it, which is why the flooding of the compartments below the living deck became uncontrollable.

We know that damage to the living deck took place from the report of the mine officer, Lieutenant M.P. Sablin, who stated in his report:

Through the hole caused by this shell, water entered the first and second compartments of the living deck, and through the cracks formed in the deck, through the hatches and broken ventilation pipes, it went into the left bow 6-inch cellar and into the under-turret compartment <…> in the holds, the water reached the compartment of the bow dynamos and underwater vehicles.

We know from the testimony of the mine-engine conductor V. N. Zavarin, who was at the dynamo machines and mine apparatuses, that it was not possible to stop the spread of water in the bow of the ship below the living deck. V. N. Zavarin testified that water was constantly flowing below the living deck of the Oslyabya until the very end:

Although the hole was patched up, water got into the underwater mine launchers before it was patched up. I temporarily left the mine launcher compartment to batten down the neck of the armored cover, which I succeeded in doing, but when I returned to the compartment I saw that water was getting in through the ventilation pipes and the ship began to list. I opened the release valve and the water went into the hold, then I started the turbines to pump out the water, but apparently this did not help, since water began to penetrate into the under-turret compartment, which was soon flooded, and I ordered the room to be patched up and everything to be tightly closed. At this time I saw the wounded Lieutenant Tunderman, who was looking for a way out above; in view of the fact that everything was battened down, I indicated the way through the forward turret. Seeing that the water was still rising, I wanted to talk to the mine officer and receive the appropriate orders, but it turned out that the telephone was out of order and the speaking tubes were broken. At this time I heard a command from above: “Save yourself if you can.”

R. M. Melnikov, V. Krestyaninov and S. Molodtsov indicated that Peresvet and Oslyabya had 10 compartments separated by watertight bulkheads: ram, forward ammunition magazines, forward under-turret, three boiler rooms, two engine rooms, aft under-turret and a tiller. I have no reason not to trust this data. But according to the testimony of M. P. Sablin and V. Zavarin, it turns out that the watertight bulkhead between the forward ammunition magazines and the forward under-turret compartments could not prevent flooding below the living deck - both sank.

In fairness, it should be noted that the watertight bulkhead may not have anything to do with it, but rather another Japanese shell that hit the bow of the Oslyabya opposite the 2nd compartment of the living deck. But this version seems extremely dubious, since, according to available data, this shell hit the battleship much later than the flooding of the compartments under the 2nd compartment of the living deck was noted. Thus, Mr. A. Rytik, relying on the testimony of sailors, indicated the time of impact as “around 14.30” or “14.25-14.30”, that is, shortly before the battleship was put out of action. At the same time, although V. Zavarin does not indicate the exact time when he recorded the ingress of water into the torpedo tube compartment through ventilation, it should be considered that it happened at approximately 14.00, at the latest at the beginning of the third hour. Two circumstances indicate this.

Firstly, the water inflow coincided with the list, which apparently occurred when the Oslyabya received a hole in the coal pit, where water began to flow, causing the ship to list to the left side. But the Japanese shell that hit the Oslyabya in the area of ​​the 10th coal pit hit the ship a few minutes after hitting the living deck compartment, that is, around 14.00:XNUMX.

Secondly, Zavarin’s subsequent actions – opening the release valve, turning on the turbines, flooding the under-turret compartment, sealing the room, talking with Lieutenant Tunderman, evacuation, etc. – could hardly have occurred between 14.25:14.30-XNUMX:XNUMX and the destruction of the battleship.

But even if I am mistaken and the water entering the forward compartments below the living deck is a consequence of a shell hitting opposite the 2nd compartment of the living deck, it will still have to be stated that such flooding – through ventilation and other “leaks” in the living deck when the end of the Oslyabya was hit – happened twice. While the sister ship Peresvet, which also received hits from large-caliber shells in the areas of the 1st and 2nd compartments of the living deck (but on the other side) during the Battle of the Yellow Sea, did not experience this in either case.

Perhaps the only contradiction in this reconstruction is the story of the senior topman F. S. Lebedev, who was directly involved in sealing the hole in the first compartment of the living deck and claimed that the hole was sealed. However, this testimony is extremely doubtful for two reasons.

Firstly, it is practically impossible to patch a large hole at the waterline, which quickly became semi-underwater, measuring at least two and a half meters (according to F.S. Lebedev) in the bow of the ship, in conditions of rough seas, an oncoming flow of water and without applying a patch from the outside of the hull.

Secondly, there is information from a much more qualified member of the Oslyabya crew, senior officer Pokhvistnev. When asked by M. P. Sablin about the hole, he replied that:

The hole cannot be repaired, but the water was dealt with and the hole no longer poses a danger.

By "we dealt with the water" we obviously do not mean "we stopped the water from entering the ship" (otherwise Pokhvistnev would have reported that the hole was sealed), but "we localized the area of ​​flooding and did not allow the water to spread further." It is also obvious that Pokhvistnev meant that the water spread only along the living deck: being on it, he could not have known that the water was "leaking" into the compartments below, and the trim was not yet great enough to tell him this.

As for F. S. Lebedev, we can assume the following: a group of sailors actually managed to erect some kind of barrier in the area of ​​the hole, which limited (but did not stop) the flow of water into the first compartment of the living deck, after which they, considering the task completed or having received an order, went about other things.

Consequences of getting into the area of ​​the 10th coal pit


The twelve-inch shell hit the area of ​​the 10th coal pit of the Oslyabya literally a few minutes after the hit described above. It can be assumed that it exploded when passing through the 102 mm upper belt, or immediately after passing through it. The consequences were quite impressive: either the armor plate was split, with most of it ending up overboard, or the force of the explosion broke it off, sending it into the water. The latter option is so specific that it may, perhaps, fall under the category of naval curiosities. But it is by no means impossible.

As an example of such an impact, let us consider shot No. 41 at the “excluded vessel” Chesma, carried out during the testing of the then newest 12-inch shells of the 1911 model. The shot was fired at a 125-mm armor plate, similar to that which protected the traverse of the Sevastopol-class battleships. They fired a high-explosive shell


As a result of the hit, the armor plate was driven into the compartment and turned along its axis, with one edge facing inward, and the other sticking out.


Pay attention to the hole in the deck - this is where the armor plate was located when the shell hit, exploding on contact with the armor. The distance from the hole in the deck to the lower edge of the plate is the path that the armor plate made into the compartment. For greater clarity, I will also provide a sketch of the consequences of this hit:


And for those esteemed readers who strive to know everything down to the millimeter, I am pleased to present a description:


"Chesma" was in calm water, at anchor, and the damaged armor plate was quite high above sea level. Therefore, it is not surprising that the plate, although greatly displaced, still remained in place. "Oslyabya" was moving in rough water, its 102-mm belt was located right at the water's edge, so there is nothing strange about its loss.

Of course, the Japanese 12-inch shell was much weaker than the Russian model 1911. During tests, the Russian shell hit the armor at a speed of 527 m/s, while the Japanese shell, which hit the area of ​​the 10th coal pit, probably hit within 400 m/s, hardly more. The weight of the Japanese shell was 386 kg, not 170,9 kg, and it carried about a third less explosive.

But, on the other hand, it was confronted with much weaker protection. The Sevastopol's traverse armour was a quarter thicker and was cemented, while the 102 mm plate of the Oslyabya was not cemented. In addition, the Sevastopol was protected by Krupp armour, while the plate of the Oslyabya was produced in the era of hardened armour. In addition, as we know from the research of Mr. A. Rytik, the 102 mm armour belt of the Oslyabya consisted, among other things, of "substandard" armour plates that had not passed the tests.

Another interesting case is shot No. 10 at the Chesma's conning tower. Here the shell penetrated the plate and exploded, and the force of the explosion turned the adjacent armor plate out by a meter - not into the conning tower, but outward.


Externally it looked like this:


Of course, this was not the first hit to the conning tower, and the fastenings could have been weakened by previous shells. But the conning tower was protected by 250 mm of cemented armor, also fastened using the dovetail method, which, of course, represents much stronger protection than the upper armor belt of the Peresvet-class battleships.

In view of the above, the variant in which the 102-mm plate of the Oslyabya received such damage that its fastening was almost destroyed, and the plate itself “put its edge overboard” as the battleship moved, turning into a ladle, and was finally broken off by the impact of the oncoming wave, is undoubtedly a rarity, close to a curiosity, but there is nothing impossible about it.

What happened next?

The repair division, led by engineer Zmachinsky, began the fight for survivability, but did not succeed. The water not only spread along the slope and flooded the 10th upper coal pit, but, apparently, began to flood the 10th and 12th lower coal pits located under the 10th upper, the compartments between the side and the coal pits, as well as the adjacent corridors and the ammunition cellar of the 6-inch guns. From there, the water penetrated into the 2nd, and soon into the 1st boiler rooms. Moreover, in considerable quantities, since M. P. Sablin reported:

After the hole in the coal pit, I received an order to start turbines No. 4 and 6, which was done.

Thanks to the work of A. Rytik, we know that the discussion was about turbines “serving” the 1st and 2nd boiler rooms.

According to M. P. Sablin, after this hit the Oslyabya's list began to increase rapidly. This is not surprising at all - every 35,4 tons of water that flowed into the coal pits and the space between them and the side increased the ship's list by approximately 1 degree (883 ton-feet necessary and sufficient to form a list of 1 degree / 24,93 feet of distance from the centerline to the center of gravity of the incoming water = 35,42 tons). But this is only the direct effect of flooding in the coal pits, and there was also an indirect effect: under the influence of the list, the water in the flooded bow compartments below the living deck and on it spilled over to the left side, causing its center of gravity to shift and the list to increase further.

At the same time, the water entering the 10th and 12th lower coal pits caused not only a list, but also a trim by the bow. If we assume that both of these pits and the rooms next to them were flooded more or less evenly, then it is reasonable to consider the center of mass of the water entering the hull of the Oslyabya to be the partition between these pits. It was located approximately at the 49th frame of the ship.

The distance between the frames (length of the frame space) was 0 m from 18 to 0,9, and 18 m starting from the 1,22th, where the ship's double bottom began. Accordingly, the distance from the 0th to the 49th frame consisted of 18 0,9 m spaces and 31 1,22 m spaces, or 54,02 m in total.

The length of the Oslyabya at the cargo waterline was 130 m, respectively, the distance to the center of the ship from the 0th frame was approximately 65 m. The center of gravity of the ship was shifted from the midship by 4,74 feet to the bow, respectively, from the zero frame to the center of gravity of the ship the distance was 63,56 m. Subtracting the 54,02 m calculated earlier, we get 9,54 m or 31,28 feet (taking into account the decimal places, it turns out to be 31,28, not 31,3). Accordingly, the 35,42 tons calculated by me earlier, causing a list to the left side by 1 degree. (not counting the multiplier effect of the overflow of water in the bow compartments), also led to an increase in the draft of the Oslyabya by 35,42 tons / 52,2 tons = 0,68 inches (1,7 cm) and a trim of 35,42 tons * 31,28 feet / 1143 ton-feet = 0,97 inches.

It can be concluded that if the hole opposite the 1st compartment of the living deck led to such an influx of water into the hull of the Oslyabya that the trim increased sharply and the list slightly, then the hit in the 10th coal pit “worked” differently: the water poured into this hole greatly increased the list and slightly increased the trim.

But we should not forget that the Oslyabya crew was fighting for survivability. M. P. Sablin mentioned counter-flooding of the corridors on the starboard side, and then of the ammunition magazines. I do not know which compartments were flooded, but we should assume that counter-flooding was used to reduce not only the list, but also the trim - in fact, this is how the fight for survivability is built. In this case, counter-flooding was supposed to reduce the already small trim to a very small value.

Conclusions


The above calculations show that:

1. "Oslyabya" could easily have been destroyed by hits from just two 12-inch shells;

2. The flooding of the bow compartments below the living deck really took on an uncontrollable character – in total, about 200 tons of water or more entered there.

Regarding the latter, I would like to note that if the shell had hit the area of ​​the 16th coal pit, and not the 10th, then even more water would have flowed into the bow compartments. The whole point is that the 16th coal pit is located aft of the midship, which is why, if it were flooded, the Oslyabya would acquire a trim by the stern, that is, such damage would become a counter-flooding in relation to the holes in the bow of the ship. In this case, the amount of water in the bow compartments of the living deck, sufficient to sink the Oslyabya "up to the hawse holes", would be significantly greater than the "about 200 tons" I calculated.

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  1. +14
    14 September 2025 05: 25
    Dear Andrey, my personal congratulations on the 444th article on the VO website!!!
    Over the course of 12 years of our acquaintance on the pages of the resource - this is if not the tenth return to the tragic death of Oslyabya. Personally, Andrey, I admire your consistency in trying to put an end to this tragedy.
    Sincere thanks for this work….
    Sorry for the emotions.
    R.s. I first learned about the tragedy from the pages of Novikov-Priboy's book in grades 2-3. The book captivated me with its appendices with tables of ships and their performance characteristics.
    I tried to read the first part, but it didn't work. But by chance, opening the middle of the novel, I came across a description of Oslyabya's death. It hooked me. Raised on books about Peter I, Suvorov, Ushakov, Kutuzov, the Civil and Great Patriotic Wars
    wars, it was a cultural shock for me to realize that page after page our ships were perishing.
    Thanks again.
    1. +12
      14 September 2025 09: 38
      Vladislav, have a nice weekend!
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      Personally, Andrey, I admire your consistency in trying to put an end to this tragedy.
      Sincere thanks for this work….

      You are always welcome. As you understand, I am not indifferent to this topic myself and I am writing for the same kind of readers who are not indifferent to me.
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      . I first learned about the tragedy from the pages of Novikov-Priboy’s book in grades 2-3.

      I had a joke about this Tsushima. I saw this book when I was probably 13-14, but not in a store, but... there were these second-hand book departments where they exchanged books. I was already a navy fan back then - I opened it - looked, my jaw hit the floor - there were descriptions, and lists of fleets at the end... Anyway, I naturally ran home skipping, okay, my parents were at home, they gave me literature to exchange, I went back, and in my head there was only one thought: "I won't make it, someone will take such a treasure now!" :))))))) I galloped all in a lather, received both volumes and, absolutely happy and exhausted, crawled home to read laughing
  2. +4
    14 September 2025 05: 49
    The author is, of course, great! A person who knows the "material". I just want to ask - what is the picture illustrating your article and who is the author of this picture?
    1. +8
      14 September 2025 09: 07
      Quote: north 2
      what kind of picture is this

      The death of the cruiser Peresvet in the Mediterranean Sea in 1916.
      Quote: north 2
      who is the author

      Igor Dementyev.
    2. +6
      14 September 2025 09: 39
      Good day, thank you! Dear Ivan, I have already answered you
  3. +4
    14 September 2025 10: 16
    Great!!
    If there were more resources and access to computer modeling, it would be possible to make a very accurate calculation and study possible flooding options - by enumeration, to find out which compartments were definitely flooded.
  4. +2
    14 September 2025 10: 28
    Thank you, Andrey, for continuing.
    I read it carefully and understood the main thing:
    You are trying hard to fit the solution to a known result. At the same time, the set of KNOWN facts does not ensure the correctness of the solution. It turns out that it is even worse for the facts.
    In fact, the solution lies in the plane of determining ADDITIONAL damage, not described by witnesses, providing the actual result. According to probability theory, it is singular. It is worth trying, and do not forget about the possible dynamic moment when transferring from side to side during circulation.
    1. +3
      14 September 2025 10: 58
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      You are trying hard to fit the solution to a known result.

      The reproach is understandable, but there is no basis for it.
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      In fact, the solution lies in the plane of determining ADDITIONAL damage

      What?:))))
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      and don't forget about the possible dynamic moment when transferring from side to side during circulation

      I have taken this into account.
      1. +1
        14 September 2025 11: 20
        1. No reproaches. The article is written in the key of searching for a certain solution that would provide a given result (35 years ago I solved the same problem regarding the fatal shell hitting the "Hood"). But at the same time you deliberately limited yourself to only the damages KNOWN from the words of witnesses. Meanwhile, there is a possibility of damage not described by witnesses, which in combination with the known ones led to the catastrophe.
        2. This is where it could be and is the task of the research.
        3. What was meant was a DYNAMIC moment, not a static one.
        1. +3
          14 September 2025 11: 59
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          The article is written in the key of searching for a certain solution that would provide a given result (35 years ago I solved the same problem about the fatal shell hitting the "Hood"). But at the same time you deliberately limited yourself to only the damages KNOWN from the words of witnesses.

          Absolutely.
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          Meanwhile, there is a possibility of damage not described by witnesses, which, in combination with the known ones, led to the disaster.

          Of course. So theoretically, the Oslyabya could have perished from, say, a meteorite. But I am not trying to answer the question "why exactly, absolutely certainly, did the battleship perish". I am answering the question, "what could have been the picture of the ship's death within the framework of the evidence known about it"
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          Meanwhile, there is a possibility of damage not described by witnesses, which, in combination with the known ones, led to the disaster.
          2. This is where it could be and is the task of the study.

          Unfortunately, I don't see any object of study here. A simple example: I have a calculation that the Oslyabya, in addition to the water on the living deck, took in about 160-200 tons of water into the forward compartments below the living deck. Could this have been the result of some underwater breach? It's unlikely, to be honest, there have been no such examples, but anything can happen. Could this have been the result of a breach on the left side, in the citadel area? It's unlikely - the list and trim simply don't match, with the required trim, the list should have been much stronger. Is it possible to find some specific case? Probably yes, if you look hard enough, but no one has mentioned it.
          What is the point of such thoughts?
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          3. What was meant was a DYNAMIC moment, not a static one.

          This is taken into account, I wrote about it
          During the rudder shift, the Oslyabya slightly reduced the list to port, but then, upon starting the turn, on the contrary, increased it. Therefore, it should be assumed that before the turn, the ship's list was no more, and most likely even less than 12 degrees. The list of 15 degrees could have formed only at the moment of the turn: if it had been like that before it, then during the turn, the water should have flooded the lower gun ports of the Oslyabya, and the ship would have capsized. Consequently, the list of the Oslyabya before the start of the failure could well have been 9-10 degrees or even less, and not at all the 12 degrees that I took as the minimum value.
          1. +1
            14 September 2025 12: 29
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            in addition to the water on the living deck, it took on approximately 160-200 tons of water into the forward compartments below the living deck. Could this have been the result of some kind of underwater breach?

            Could this water have entered through the holes in the side and forecastle and accumulated on the battery and upper decks?
            1. +2
              14 September 2025 13: 00
              Quote: rytik32
              Could this water have entered through the holes in the side and forecastle and accumulated on the battery and upper decks?

              200 tons of water above sea level in your nose? How do you imagine that?
              1. +1
                14 September 2025 15: 29
                I just calculated it. The area of ​​the battery deck from the bow to the beam is about 366 m2, the upper deck from the bow to the beam is about 341 m2. If we assume that the water stood at an average of 0,3 meters, i.e. up to the hatch coamings, then we get exactly 110 m3 on the battery and 102 m3 on the upper decks.
                If we take into account the filling factor and the density of water, then we will come to 160...200 tons.
                1. +2
                  14 September 2025 16: 02
                  Quote: rytik32
                  If we assume that the water stood at an average of 0,3 meters

                  Please explain where 0,3 meters of water could have come from.
                  1. +1
                    14 September 2025 16: 07
                    From waves, surf, close explosions.
                    1. +2
                      14 September 2025 16: 15
                      Quote: rytik32
                      From waves, surf, close explosions.

                      I see. That is, solely from your desire for them to be there.
                      1. +1
                        14 September 2025 16: 34
                        On the Orel, according to evidence, a wave rolled into the hole in the battery deck even at the stern, but on the Oslyaba, could it have been different?

                        So the conclusion based on your own calculations: the desired trim could have been obtained from water on the upper and battery decks, and not from fillings below the living deck.
                      2. +2
                        14 September 2025 16: 57
                        Quote: rytik32
                        On the Orel, according to evidence, a wave rolled into the hole in the battery deck even in the stern

                        And flooded the deck by 30 cm?:)))))
                      3. +1
                        14 September 2025 23: 28
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And flooded the deck by 30 cm?:)))))

                        Exactly 30 cm. Study the sources!
                      4. +2
                        15 September 2025 07: 02
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Exactly 30 cm. Study the sources!

                        And please, don't manipulate the sources. Because 30 cm on the "Orel" was formed as a result of numerous fires both on the battery and upper decks, and water flowed abundantly from the upper to the battery deck through the damage. And not at all because of one hole. And if my memory serves me right, the entire deck was flooded, which is why the water on it did not lead to trim.
                      5. 0
                        15 September 2025 10: 04
                        "Oslyabya" had one or more holes in the deck, through which water, which got on the forecastle with a wave, flowed into the ship like through a funnel. Each wave could pour several tons into the hull ... this is a much more intense source of flooding than fire hoses.
                      6. +1
                        15 September 2025 10: 23
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The Oslyabya had one or more holes in the deck, through which water, which had entered the forecastle with a wave, flowed into the ship like a funnel.

                        And flowed back under the influence of gravity - trim by the bow
                      7. 0
                        15 September 2025 10: 27
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And flowed back under the influence of gravity - trim by the bow

                        Of course it was leaking, otherwise there would have been far more than 30 cm of water
                      8. +1
                        15 September 2025 10: 32
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Of course it was leaking, otherwise there would have been far more than 30 cm of water

                        And again, I can only advise you to take up physics.
          2. +1
            14 September 2025 13: 43
            The dynamic moment of overflowing water was meant to be the effect of the moment that occurs when it is slowed down, and not just a change in the placement of liquid loads (this is precisely statics).
            1. +2
              14 September 2025 14: 40
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              The dynamic moment of overflowing water was meant to refer to the effect of the moment that occurs when it is slowed down.

              And how do you order this to be taken into account?:))) We do not know the speed of the Oslyabya at the moment of the turn, nor the radius of the circulation... Actually, we do not know anything at all:)))) Therefore, all that remains is to say that part of the observed roll of 12-15 degrees was formed by a combination of reasons caused by the circulation - both static and dynamic.
              1. +1
                14 September 2025 15: 08
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                We don't know the speed of the Oslyabya at the moment of the turn, nor the turning radius...

                Take the speed and radius from my diagram
                1. +2
                  14 September 2025 15: 12
                  Quote: rytik32
                  Take the speed and radius from my diagram

                  Alexey, your scheme has such serious assumptions that at best it can be considered one of many possible options.
        2. +1
          14 September 2025 12: 00
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          35 years ago I solved the same problem when the fatal shell hit the Hood.

          And what conclusions did you come to?
          1. +2
            14 September 2025 12: 28
            Greetings, Maxim!
            I have already written to you about this.
            With a probability higher than 90% - a diving shell with a fuse that failed to work upon impact with the water hit under the armor belt, then through the fuel tank into the racks of anti-aircraft shells. Secondary detonation of ammunition with penetration of fragments and flame into the main battery magazine of the aft turrets.
            An alternative is that the main battery barbette was not hit, but the nature of the ship's explosion does not support this version.
            It was not possible to mathematically confirm the interaction of the projectile with the upper belt and the subsequent penetration of the slope of the main armor deck.
            1. +1
              14 September 2025 12: 54
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              I have already written to you about this.

              It must have been a long time ago... what

              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              With a probability higher than 90% - a diving shell with a fuse that failed to work upon impact with the water hit under the armor belt, then through the fuel tank into the racks of anti-aircraft shells. Secondary detonation of ammunition with penetration of fragments and flame into the main battery magazine of the aft turrets.

              It practically coincided with the conclusions of the British commission.
            2. 0
              14 September 2025 17: 07
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              With a probability higher than 90% - a diving shell with a fuse that failed to work upon impact with the water hit under the armor belt, then through the fuel tank into the racks of anti-aircraft shells. Secondary detonation of ammunition with penetration of fragments and flame into the main battery magazine of the aft turrets.
              Some kind of fantastic treachery for a brainless ammunition... Or was the anti-aircraft cellar so deep in the bowels of the ship?
              1. +4
                14 September 2025 17: 36
                Quote: bk0010
                Or was the anti-aircraft magazine that deep in the bowels of the ship?

                Quite...
                The diagram from the famous article by B. Jurens: blue - cellars of the Civil Code, red - cellars of the Criminal Code, green - waterline.
                1. 0
                  14 September 2025 19: 19
                  Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                  The diagram from the famous article by B. Jurens: blue - cellars of the Civil Code, red - cellars of the Criminal Code, green - waterline.
                  I see. Without any reason, he was sure that it came from his nose. If from the side - everything is logical.
                  1. +1
                    14 September 2025 19: 30
                    Quote: bk0010
                    I see. Without any reason, he was sure that it came from his nose. If from the side - everything is logical.

                    You are partly right: due to the relative positions of the ships, the projectile's trajectory was approximately 40 degrees (possibly less: it is not entirely clear how exactly the Hood maneuvered) forward of the beam.
              2. 0
                14 September 2025 17: 54
                In fact, failure of German fuses was a common occurrence in WWII. So a 50-pound blank simply passed through the water, the side of the tank and began cutting through the racks of four-inch cartridges. When they were destroyed, they began to ignite and explode, including from each other, and then - damage to the bulkhead and penetration of the flame thrust and fragments into the main battery cellar.
                1. +1
                  14 September 2025 18: 20
                  Quote: Victor Leningradets
                  In fact, failure of German fuses to work was a common occurrence in WWII.

                  There, greetings to the gloomy Teutonic genius, who managed to divide the detonator into the detonator itself and the fuse. All this "happiness" was collected in the fuse cup, which in turn was screwed into the bottom or head of the projectile.
                  As the British discovered, when the bomb hit (fell) at sharp angles, the ignition cup was deformed or broke and the flame force from the fuse could not initiate the fuse.
    2. 0
      15 September 2025 14: 17
      The problem here is that you have to adjust. The result is known. The reasons for some probability may be different. Well, and the main damage was from large shells, and not from all the rest.
      According to the sailors of that time: anything less than 12 inches is like peas. Especially high-explosive ones.
      We just need to figure out: could these two shells cause such damage? Well, they could. We know the result.
      The battlecruiser "Lützow" perished in approximately the same way. Yes, there were more shells - 3 or 4 from "Invincible". And it did not sink so quickly. But the fact of death from such damage is also there.
      1. 0
        15 September 2025 14: 56
        As for the peas, I'll argue.
        Taking into account the description of the damage to the Orel by V.P. Kostenko, he recorded all hits by eight-inch shells as twelve-inch, and all six-inch shells as eight-inch.
        So there could have been another hit, which, in combination with what eyewitnesses described, led to the destruction of the ship.
        In other words: it is necessary to determine the amount of water and its distribution in the ship's hull, which, when circulated, will lead to capsizing.
        1. 0
          15 September 2025 16: 30
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          He recorded all hits with eight-inch shells as twelve-inch

          I recently analyzed hits on the Oryol. There are 35...40 hits that can be estimated as 12-inch and 8...12-inch. The range of estimates is 5 pieces due to hits on the armor, which cannot be verified except by word of mouth. The remaining hits have either photos or detailed descriptions (including Japanese and English sources) and there are no doubts about them. In addition, there are many actual 8-inch hits, in the assessment of which Kostenko was not mistaken. Most of the 6-inch hits Kostenko estimated correctly.
          And few people know that Kostenko has a list of 140 hits, indicating the location and caliber.
          1. 0
            15 September 2025 18: 30
            I have more faith in the Japanese estimates and Pekingham data.
            And I saw Kostenko's table.
            1. 0
              15 September 2025 22: 22
              Quote: Victor Leningradets
              I have more faith in the Japanese estimates and Pekingham data.

              The Japanese and English sources are fragmentary, but if they are compared with Kostenko's data, everything will match up, with the exception of some hits to the armor, which only Kostenko, Shvede, or other Orel officers have.
        2. 0
          15 September 2025 16: 30
          The Port Arthurians wrote about peas. They were more experienced.
  5. +3
    14 September 2025 10: 45
    Andrei, good afternoon!
    Thanks for a great new discussion topic.

    Unfortunately, I cannot agree with the conclusions.
    "Oslyabya" could have easily been destroyed by hits from just two 12-inch shells

    "Oslyabya" could have been destroyed by one shell... But in fact, the destruction was caused by 5 holes near the power line from 6 shells, through which water was entering, and many other hits, due to which the embrasure doors of the 75-mm guns were broken, the steering wheel was broken, the sailors of the fire-hold division were knocked out, etc.

    The flooding of the bow compartments below the living deck really took on an uncontrollable character – in total, about 200 tons of water or more entered there

    Your calculations are made on the assumption that the heeling or differentiating moment is constant. But this is not the case. I just changed one indicator on my Excel "calculator" - the MCW and looked at its effect on the result. MCW 0,8 m - heel of 4,2 degrees, MCW 0,2 m - heel of 14,8 degrees. Therefore, there were no 200 tons of water in the compartments below the living deck, but there was a change in MCW due to a decrease in the area of ​​the effective waterline.
    There was also the effect of the ship "burying" itself while moving. But I don't know how to calculate it.
    But the roll during circulation is completely taken into account in the formulas, and you estimated it "by eye".

    A twelve-inch shell hit the area of ​​the 10th coal pit

    This version is based on a combination of incredible and unlikely events.
    1. The 12-inch armor-piercing shell could not have hit the 10th coal pit, since the Japanese battleships did not fire a single such shell at the Oslyaba. An incredible event.
    2. The shell penetrated the armor and exploded - an unlikely event. Only 1 case during the entire war.
    3. The plate fell off - an incredible event. Not a single similar case during the entire war. The "Chesma" examples are very far from the "Oslyabya": the plate size is completely different (the "Oslyabya" has a plate of the upper belt that extends 2,5 frames in length), the fastening is completely different (the "Oslyabya" has two steel sheets of the base + a wooden base, frames, beams, knees, etc. at the back).
    4. During the explosion, the thin internal partition of the 10th UYa, which was located only 2...3 meters from the explosion site, remained intact. An unlikely event.
    1. +2
      14 September 2025 10: 56
      Quote: rytik32
      "Oslyabya" could have been destroyed by one shell... But in fact, 5 holes near the power line from 6 shells led to the destruction

      Alas.
      Quote: rytik32
      Your calculations are made on the assumption that the heeling or differentiating moment is constant. But this is not the case. I just changed one indicator on my Excel "calculator" - the MCW and looked at its effect on the result. MCW 0,8 m - heel of 4,2 degrees, MCW 0,2 m - heel of 14,8 degrees. Therefore, there were no 200 tons of water in the compartments below the living deck, but there was a change in MCW due to a decrease in the area of ​​the effective waterline.

      Alexey, one very simple question. What trim of "Oslyabya" did you get in your calculations?:))))))
      1. +3
        14 September 2025 11: 35
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        What trim did the Oslyabya get in your calculations?:))))))

        I didn't have a "final" calculation as such, because there were too many unknowns. I calculated several scenarios of sinking, in which the ship sank with its bow to the hawse holes, and calmed down at that.
        Now about the unknowns:
        1. Longitudinal MCB. I only have a theoretical calculation of the MCB. The actual MCB was clearly much smaller.
        2. Trim from "burying" the bow while moving.
        3. The amount of water on the battery and upper decks in the bow. With a large number of holes and rough seas, water would quickly accumulate in significant volumes.
        4. The amount of water in the cellars (shell, ammunition, supplies, etc.). In theory, they could be flooded through ventilation, or they could not be flooded.
        5. The amount of water in the holds...
        1. +2
          14 September 2025 11: 40
          Quote: rytik32
          I didn't have a "final" calculation as such.

          Alexey, I asked a very simple question. And I didn't get an answer. You calculated through the MCV, good. So, what trim should the Oslyabya have received as a result of the breach in the living deck and the water entering the 1st and 2nd compartments on it? Let's put other reasons aside for now.
          1. +2
            14 September 2025 12: 26
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            what trim should the Oslyabya have received as a result of the hole in the living deck and the access of water to the 1st and 2nd compartments on it

            increase in bow draft by 1,46 meters
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            I asked a very simple question

            This question seems simple to you. In reality, there are many "buts"
            If we take into account the change in the MCC and the area of ​​the operating overhead line, the bow draft would increase by more than 2 meters.
            1. +2
              14 September 2025 12: 58
              Quote: rytik32
              increase in bow draft by 1,46 meters

              And how then do you explain the fact that Peresvet received exactly the same access of water to the living deck, but did not have a one and a half meter trim on the bow?
              Quote: rytik32
              If we take into account the change in the MCC and the area of ​​the operating overhead line, the bow draft would increase by more than 2 meters.

              And where is all this on the Peresvet? Alexey, in the battle in ZhM Peresvet received the same access of water to the living quarters up to the 30th frame. Where is the two-meter trim on the bow?
              1. +1
                14 September 2025 13: 02
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                exactly the same access of water to the living deck

                Not the same at all.
                The first compartment of the Peresvet did not have free communication with the sea.
                The consequences of flooding through the hole in the 2nd compartment were very quickly eliminated by counter-flooding.
                1. +2
                  14 September 2025 13: 19
                  Quote: rytik32
                  Not the same at all.

                  Same.
                  Quote: rytik32
                  The first compartment of the Peresvet did not have free communication with the sea.

                  We know from the descriptions that it did. Please do not ignore the evidence - the water covered the deck by a foot and a half
                  Quote: rytik32
                  The consequences of flooding through the hole in the 2nd compartment were very quickly eliminated by counter-flooding.

                  Firstly, there is no information about "very prompt" or even simply "prompt" flooding. There is information about counter-flooding, which corrected the list from the hole into the coal pit.
                  Secondly, a 500-meter trim cannot be corrected by counter-flooding. To do this, it is necessary to take on about 140 tons of water at a distance of XNUMX feet from the center of gravity.
                  Alexey, I'll be simpler. Earlier I had a suspicion that your calculations were wrong. Now they have turned into a firm certainty.
                  I assume that the error lies in the fact that you did not introduce a correction for the buoyancy force of the unflooded compartments below the living deck of the Oslyabya, or you did, but incorrectly. That is, you, using ready-made formulas, did not take into account that they a priori imply flooding of compartments to the bottom of the ship, so that your calculation of the trim led to the exclusion, complete or partial, of the influence of compartments below the living deck.
                  1. +1
                    14 September 2025 15: 06
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    the water filled the deck to a depth of one and a half feet

                    And the lower edge of the hole was about 4 feet above the living deck. So how could there be free communication?

                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    there is no information about a "very prompt" or even simply "prompt" flooding

                    Yes, in the logbook.
                    from a hole in a coal pit.

                    There was no hole in the coal pit.

                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    one and a half meter trim

                    Peresvet did not have a trim of 1,5 meters.
                    they a priori imply flooding of compartments down to the bottom of the ship

                    No. I entered the volume of the entire compartment of the living deck, and not the part that is below the current power line. But for the Oslyabya the difference is not great if the water was up to the level of the hawse holes.
                    1. 0
                      14 September 2025 16: 01
                      Quote: rytik32
                      And the lower edge of the hole was about 4 feet above the living deck. So how could there be free communication?

                      And just as you described
                      During a break in the battle, they tried to patch the hole, but were unable to do so because of the large breakers rising from the stem. The first compartment turned into a "bucket" about 18 meters long, which had no technical means for removing water. A slight trim by the bow arose.

                      And taking into account that according to you
                      The trim by the bow increased so much that the living deck in the forward part dropped approximately 60 cm below the load waterline.

                      That is, the distance to the water is 0,6 m, and there is a surf there.
                      Also, let's not forget the photo, which raises extreme doubts that the bottom edge of the hole was 4 feet above sea level.
                      Your interpretation of the consequences of this hole
                      From the point of view of unsinkability, the "bucket" was a partially flooded compartment communicating with the atmosphere.

                      I believe it is wrong, because the crew was unable to limit the flow of water into it.
                      Quote: rytik32
                      Yes, in the logbook.

                      I assume you are now talking about the counter-flooding you described.
                      The ship's commander V. A. Boysman ordered to find out the reason for the list and eliminate it. "Peresvet" took on about 150 tons of water in three middle and one aft side corridor on the left side, as well as in one double-bottom compartment in the stern

                      This is not trim equalization, this is roll equalization.
                      Quote: rytik32
                      There was no hole in the coal pit.

                      So 160 tons of water were taken into the corridors between the pit and the side? Seriously?
                      That is, in the previous thread you tried your best to convince me that it was absolutely impossible for a battleship to take 300 tons into its coal pits, but here you have 160 tons in just the corridors, just the outer ones, without pits, without ammunition magazines?
                      But the story about how the hole at the waterline level, where the upper tap was 2 feet away, could have been emptied with portable pumps... Sorry, that doesn't happen.
                      Quote: rytik32
                      Peresvet did not have a trim of 1,5 meters.

                      Naturally, there was not. And there could not be. Just as there could not be a trim of 1,5-2 m from water access to the living deck of the Oslyabya.
                      Quote: rytik32
                      No. I entered the volume of the entire compartment of the living deck, and not the part below the active overhead line.

                      Where did you enter it?:))) Was the longitudinal metacentric radius defined as the central moment of inertia of the waterline area of ​​the vessel divided by the volumetric displacement? Or did you use other formulas/approaches?
                      1. +1
                        14 September 2025 16: 19
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        That is, the distance to the water is 0,6 m, and there is a breaker there

                        A breaker is not a free connection with the sea. If the water was not 4 feet, it means that it not only successfully flowed in, but also poured out.

                        This is not trim equalization, this is roll equalization.

                        Are you serious? And how did the double-bottom compartment in the stern affect the list?

                        accepted in the corridors between the pit and the side? Seriously?

                        There it is written in Russian "compartments", not "pits", i.e. double-bottom compartments. The side corridor was in fact a continuation of the double-bottom compartments.
                        160 tons entered just the corridors, just the outer ones, without pits, without ammunition cellars

                        I have already written earlier that it is not 160 tons, but a little less.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Where did they enter it?

                        I took the formulas from Krylov’s work and entered them into it.
                        The longitudinal metacentric radius was defined as the central moment of inertia of the waterline area of ​​the vessel divided by the volumetric displacement

                        Do you think I remember these formulas by heart?
                        They have a gypsum fiberboard area fullness kit, a midship frame fullness kit, and a displacement fullness kit. So it looks like what you are writing.
                      2. +2
                        14 September 2025 16: 55
                        Quote: rytik32
                        A breaker is not a free connection with the sea. If the water was not 4 feet, it means that it not only successfully flowed in, but also poured out.

                        Alexey, in your opinion, where did the water that flowed into the compartment go?
                        Given: there is a compartment, water flows into it from the breakers, but it cannot flow out, because the hole is above sea level. The question is - how long will it take for the water to fill the compartment to the lower edge of the hole? And if this did not happen, then why? Why did the water stop at 1,5 feet, and not rise to all 4?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Are you serious? And how did the double-bottom compartment in the stern affect the list?

                        If this is what you mean, then this is not trim correction.
                        And if you are talking about counter-flooding, then yes, it is a trim. Only - from a relatively small flooding of the forward coal pits, which you like to consider corridors.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I have already written earlier that it is not 160 tons, but a little less.

                        But for some reason the compilers of the official history think that it was 160 tons. There is a feeling that they knew something like that or something :)
                        Quote: rytik32
                        There, in Russian, it is written “departments”, not “pits”. those. double bottom compartments.

                        160 tons
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I took the formulas from Krylov’s work and entered them into it.

                        Quote: rytik32
                        Do you think I remember these formulas by heart?

                        You don't have to remember them, of course, you can just look in the book and name them.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        They have a gypsum fiberboard area fullness kit, a midship frame fullness kit, and a displacement fullness kit. So it looks like what you are writing.

                        Then you most likely estimated according to the formulas that Krylov used (a scan of the page you provided earlier). That is, you only operated with a reduction in the area of ​​the cargo waterline, while keeping the volumetric displacement the same - well, then it is not surprising that you counted 1,5-2 m of trim.
                        As I said, you took the formulas, but applied them to the wrong case, hence the error.
                      3. +1
                        14 September 2025 23: 18
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Where did the water that flowed into the compartment go?

                        It poured overboard through the same hole.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        can't pour out

                        What made you think so? A wave from a breaker can be reflected from an internal bulkhead and spill out. Cherkasov writes:
                        The wave washed everything clean from there.

                        That is, water not only flowed in, but also flowed out.
                        flooding of the bow coal pits

                        Where do the potholes come from? Does at least one source write about the potholes?
                        160 tons

                        Calculate the volume of the mine cellar, maybe that's the problem?
                      4. +1
                        15 September 2025 07: 09
                        Quote: rytik32

                        That is, water not only flowed in, but also flowed out.

                        While leaving 2,5 feet of the room unfilled?:)))) Alexey, the reconstruction you described is physically impossible.
                        But that's not the point. The point is that since the water was pouring in and out, it had free access to the compartment, which speaks of free communication with the sea.
                      5. 0
                        15 September 2025 10: 08
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Alexey, the reconstruction you described is physically impossible.

                        I recommend that you study the physics of the process in more detail.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        While leaving 2,5 feet of the room unfilled?:))))

                        Try filling a bucket with water from a fire hose. The water will flow in and out under pressure. Run for at least half an hour, but as soon as you turn off the tap, you will find that the bucket is only half full of water.
                        free access to the compartment, which indicates free communication with the sea

                        These are different things.
                      6. +1
                        15 September 2025 10: 29
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I recommend that you study the physics of the process in more detail.

                        Refer to your own recommendation. For things to wash out through a hole with a lower edge 4 feet from the surface of the sea, the water must either reach that level or move along the deck in waves with a crest higher than 4 feet above the deck. But in the latter case, no one would ever characterize the water level on the deck as 1,5 feet.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        These are different things.

                        No, these are the same things. Please reread the definitions. The most important indicator of a partially filled compartment is that water does not arrive even if the draft increases, so it is considered cargo. In the case of Peresvet, this is not the case.
                      7. 0
                        15 September 2025 11: 32
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        no one would ever describe the water level on the deck as 1,5 feet

                        Who and at what point in time characterized the level as 1,5 feet?

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In Peresvet's case this is not the case.

                        Can you confirm these words with eyewitness accounts?
                      8. +1
                        15 September 2025 11: 40
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Who and at what point in time characterized the level as 1,5 feet?

                        A scan from the official story is provided above.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Can you confirm these words with eyewitness accounts?

                        Since when did we suddenly start looking for classification of compartment damage from eyewitnesses? We look for description of damage, but we classify it ourselves. But maybe I'm wrong? Maybe you have eyewitness accounts of those who classified the Oslyabya compartments, indicating that free communication with the sea happened precisely after the second hit to the unarmored side of the living deck? :)
                      9. 0
                        15 September 2025 11: 54
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        A scan from the official story is given above.

                        That is, it is not clear who and it is not clear at what point in time?
                        "Excellent" evidence for further conclusions!

                        Perhaps you have eyewitness accounts of those who classified the compartments of the Oslyabya, indicating that free communication with the sea occurred precisely after the second hit to the unarmored side of the living deck?

                        Yes, I have Lebedev’s testimony.
                      10. 0
                        15 September 2025 12: 32
                        Quote: rytik32
                        That is, it is not clear who and it is not clear at what point in time?

                        Actually, at the moment after the hit. I repeat - do not manipulate the sources.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Yes, I have Lebedev’s testimony.

                        Interpreted by you at your own discretion. I strongly doubt that Lebedev was in any way capable of classifying compartments (ship theory is not his area) and had the desire to do so.
                      11. 0
                        15 September 2025 12: 55
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Actually, at the moment after the hit.

                        This is a very flexible period of time.

                        Lebedev was generally able to classify the compartments

                        Lebedev did not classify it. He clearly wrote the location of the hole relative to the waterline: "the shell ... hit below the waterline" - that's enough.
                      12. +1
                        15 September 2025 13: 08
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Lebedev did not classify

                        You should make up your mind. You demand that I classify eyewitnesses, I tell you that there are no such in nature, you declare that Lebedev has them and then - that Lebedev does not.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        This is a very flexible period of time.

                        Alexey, the idea you came up with
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Try filling a bucket with water from a fire hose.

                        In this case, it won't work at all. Simply because the compartment is large, and the hole is not too big, and the flow of water through it will not raise a big wave. This is not a fire hose in a bucket, but rather an ordinary garden hose with low pressure.
                        So no one and a half meter waves in the compartment:))
                      13. 0
                        15 September 2025 13: 28
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You demand from me a classification of eyewitnesses

                        You confused me with someone else.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        because the compartment is big

                        Do you know the size of the compartment? Why did you decide that it is big?
                      14. 0
                        15 September 2025 14: 00
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Do you know the size of the compartment?

                        The source is not talking about a compartment, but about a deck - the matter was not limited to a compartment
                      15. 0
                        15 September 2025 21: 20
                        Well, Cherkasov wrote: 1,5-2 feet of water. Maybe it was when the water just started coming in? Maybe they were pumping out the water... Unfortunately, there are no more details.
  6. +4
    14 September 2025 13: 45
    Total fantasy and fortune telling on tea leaves. The article has exclusively artistic value, it can not be considered as a fact in any way. Rytik wrote correctly, there is too little data to calculate anything, but no Andrey, who has already tried hard to stretch an owl onto a globe in his pseudo-scientific creations. Even the fact that there were hits from 12-inch shells is purely an assumption. I reminded that in the Russian MGSh they believed that Japanese battleships did not fire at Oslyaba, this is reflected in the Russian translation of Meiji.

    In general, we can beat around the bush for a long time, but there are no facts or evidence. Personally, I believe that the immediate cause of the death was a sharp turn, presumably caused by the failure of the steering system (or the injury or death of the helmsman in the wheelhouse). The stability of the Peresvets is much worse than that of the Borodinets, and the heavily flooded ship capsized from too much list on a sudden turn. But I repeat, this is only my assumption.

    Well, I advise Andrey's fans to be patient, he'll spend another ten articles pouring water and scientifically calculating this water. wassat
  7. +1
    14 September 2025 14: 28
    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
    Quote: Victor Leningradets
    I have already written to you about this.

    It must have been a long time ago... what

    Quote: Victor Leningradets
    With a probability higher than 90% - a diving shell with a fuse that failed to work upon impact with the water hit under the armor belt, then through the fuel tank into the racks of anti-aircraft shells. Secondary detonation of ammunition with penetration of fragments and flame into the main battery magazine of the aft turrets.

    It practically coincided with the conclusions of the British commission.


    By the way, the Japanese accidentally obtained a similar effect during experiments on the Tosa, and developed a whole new type of shell, designed for "diving at close range."
    1. +1
      14 September 2025 15: 12
      Quote: deddem
      By the way, the Japanese accidentally obtained a similar effect during experiments on the Tosa.

      In general, neither the Germans nor the British tried specifically, but the Bismarck and the Prince of Wales exchanged similar hits in the battle in the Denmark Strait: under the waterline, below the edge of the armor belt.
  8. +1
    14 September 2025 17: 36
    You describe the change in the vessel's draft (average draft, heel, trim) quite confidently, so the question arises: why don't you estimate the amount of water taken in by the increase in draft? In my opinion, finding the amount of water taken in based on the moments (heeling and defferent)... well, that's not it. Perhaps, historical documents will contain information about several displacement/draft data, in which case it will be possible to calculate the "tons per centimeter of draft" indicator.
    1. +2
      14 September 2025 18: 56
      Quote: adena
      accordingly, the question arises: why don’t you evaluate the amount of water received by the increase in sediment?

      Actually, that's exactly what I do - having determined the Oslyabya's trim by the bow, I calculate how much water it should have taken in. And with the list - the same.
      Quote: adena
      in this case it will be possible to calculate the indicator "tons per centimeter of sediment".

      It is already there - 52,2 tons of water per inch (2,54 cm)
      1. +1
        14 September 2025 19: 46
        Well, that's great, since the t/cm of the draft and the draft increment are known, then the list can be neglected (besides, it has been vulgarized by dynamics), at the "moment" the Fermi assumption is quite valid (the assumption of equal-volume inclination). That is, you learned the accepted weight, you know the trim, and from these values, by changing the draft, you find the coordinates of the resulting weight (without applicate, of course). In this way, you approximately localize the flooding volumes (as I understand it, this is the question) before the ship lost stability.
        1. +2
          14 September 2025 21: 47
          Quote: adena
          That is, we found out the accepted weight

          So I don't know him from the start. Apart from the list and the distance the ship's bow sank - nothing.
          Quote: adena
          and from these values, by changing the landing, find the coordinates of the resulting weight

          That's what I did. The point is that such a trim and list could have been formed in different ways.
          Quote: adena
          then the roll can be neglected

          I can’t - because it gives at least approximate data on how much water has poured into the coal pits, and the trim depends on this.
          Quote: adena
          This way you can roughly localize the flooding volumes.

          Yes, that's how I contacted them.
  9. wku
    -1
    21 November 2025 07: 29
    I read somewhere that the naval guns were aimed in the southern hemisphere when a squadron passed through there, because of this they could not shoot accurately.