China: Symbiosis with the Steppe?

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China: Symbiosis with the Steppe?
Nomads. Neural network generation


The article discusses whether some kind of symbiosis existed, or could exist, between an agricultural state and its nomadic neighbors, using the example of China.



I was inspired to write it by a discussion in the comments to my article on VO about Eurasianism.

Thanks to L. N. Gumilev, and especially his admirers, the theory of symbiosis between nomads and neighboring agricultural peoples became very popular.

We are talking about symbiosis, of course, primarily between the ancient Russian lands that were destroyed by the Mongol-Tatar invasion and the Horde that appeared at its borders.

But in this article we will look at the situation in Southeast Asia.

Since the emergence of the Chinese agricultural civilization, clashes with neighboring nomadic ethnic groups have also begun. We will not consider the issue of symbiosis throughout the entire Chinese stories, but let's focus on the Middle Ages.

From the moment of the collapse of the Tang Dynasty, the benchmark empire in Chinese history, not only active military actions began against the steppe ethnic groups, of which, as we wrote in the history of the Chinese ethnic group, there were many, as well as trade relations, but the direct seizure of the territories of the agricultural state by its neighbors began.

Nomads


The economic type of the nomad did not change over the centuries and had the same character as that of the Scythians, Huns, Turks, Kalmyks, Kazakhs, etc. Changes in climatic conditions only indirectly affected the economic type of the nomads, much less the established social structure.

An important factor of nomadic economy was that it could not produce surpluses to support hierarchical structures that did not participate in production. Therefore, a large number of researchers believe that nomads did not need a state.

Economic activity was conducted within the clan, rarely and almost never reached the tribal level. Cattle could not be accumulated indefinitely, unlike what happened in agricultural societies. The external environment strictly regulated this process, so it was more profitable to distribute surpluses, and not only surpluses, to poor relatives for grazing or as "gifts", to enhance prestige and authority, within the framework of the "gifting" system, to increase the ulus.

At the same time, nomads, unlike farmers, could not exist solely within the framework of their economic activity. They needed exchange with agricultural society to obtain products that they completely lacked.

It was not always possible to obtain these material values ​​from agricultural China. It considered the nomads as a constant source of military threat and directly prevented this interaction, from building the Great Wall of China, conducting a policy of invading the steppe, with the aim of reducing the "herd" of nomads, to the policy: "i yi zhi yi" - "with the help of barbarians to pacify barbarians."

Property and steppe


Among farmers, power is based on the management of society with the aim of controlling and redistributing the surplus product. As Yelu Chucai, himself a Sinicized descendant of the Khitan emperor Liao, told Genghis Khan "long beard":

Although you obtained the Celestial Empire while sitting on a horse, you cannot rule it while sitting on a horse.

This phrase is not only about the system of governance of an agricultural society, but also about the fact that the Mongols themselves will be able to govern only by accepting the rules of governance of such a society, i.e. they will abandon nomadic traditions, becoming rulers of a more stable, from the point of view of the Chinese, agricultural society.

Nomads do not have such management systems, there is nothing to control and distribute, nothing to put aside for a rainy day, no savings. Cattle could not be an object of accumulation, but its death affected a rich relative more than a poor one. Hence, the campaigns against farmers had the character of ruinous raids: the psychology of a nomad demanded to live for today.

Therefore, power among nomads had exclusively external attributes, was aimed not at governing their society, but at contacts with external communities and countries. And it was primarily military.

Farmers drew resources for wars from their own society, by collecting taxes and levies; steppe dwellers did not know taxes, and they obtained sources for war from outside.

The stability of nomadic empires depended directly on the leader's ability to receive agricultural products and trophies in wartime and tribute and gifts in peacetime. It is precisely as such a generous redistributor that the young Genghis Khan appears in the "Collection of Chronicles":

This prince Temujin, - reports Rashid-ad-Din, - takes off the clothes he is wearing and gives them away, gets off the horse he is sitting on and gives them away. He is the man who could take care of the region, look after the army and maintain the ulus well.

Thus, Ogedei and his son Guyuk, Mongke Khan, Kublai continued the tradition of the great conqueror, and in many ways surpassed Genghis Khan himself, however, they had something to give:

Since at the hour of death [treasures] do not bring any benefit and it is impossible to return from the other world, we will keep our treasures in our hearts and give everything that is available and that is prepared, or [whatever else] arrives, to our subjects and those in need, in order to glorify our good name.

The very system of nomadic society dictated the behavior of the steppe dwellers, when everything seized from farmers could, at best, simply be eaten. It is significant that after the campaign in rich Central Asia, Iran and neighboring countries, it turned out in Mongolia that there was nothing left to give away, and therefore they urgently began a war with the Golden Empire.

Silks and jewelry were used only to emphasize status, and slaves were little different from cattle. As the writer V. Yan noted, Genghis Khan

He was honest only with his own Mongols, and looked at all other people like a hunter who plays a flute, luring a goat to catch and cook a kebab from it.

This system was not only among the Mongols, but also among all the nomads with whom the Chinese encountered.

State formations of nomads in the territory of agricultural China


In the context of the collapse of the Tang Empire, for internal reasons, the nomads began to exert pressure on its borders, after which they moved on to seizing territories where the Chinese ethnic group lived.

The nomads had already captured the lands of Chinese farmers, for example, the Turkic-speaking Tabgachi (Toba) captured the north of China and founded the Northern Wei dynasty (386-552).

The conquest of northern China is associated with the Khitans, a Mongolian nomadic tribal union. The Russian name "China" comes from the name "Khitan", which was used by various Turkic peoples to refer to the "Celestial Empire", and "Tatars" for all tribes of the Mongolian ethnic group.


Horseman. Artist Zhao Mengfu (1254–1322)

After the raids, the Khitans temporarily occupied the Chinese districts in Lian and Yun of the Later Jin Dynasty empire, a fragment of the Tang Empire, and in 936 the Khitan Empire of the Liao (Iron) Dynasty arose on these lands.

Its emergence forced the Chinese to consolidate, where in battles with the Khitans of the Later Zhou Dynasty empire in 960, the emperor of the new dynasty, Song, was proclaimed, the commander Zhao Kuan-ying.

And the situation with the seizure of lands led to a revolution in the psychology of the nomads. The long struggle between Liao and Song showed the inhabitants of the steppe that China could become a tasty morsel and a constant source of comfortable existence in favorable climatic conditions:

…possession of Chinese lands, - wrote the orientalist V. P. Vasiliev back in the 19th century, - should have produced a great revolution among the inhabitants of Mongolia; they learned to own Chinese lands and saw that this first experience could be repeated on a larger scale.

The Song Emperor Shi Jingtang recognized the nomadic Liao Khan as his "father".

Chinese administrators, who decided to serve the new rulers, contributed to the rooting of nomads in the captured provinces:

Yan Hui was the first to teach the Khitans, wrote Ye Longli in the 12th century, how to organize official institutions, build cities surrounded by internal and external walls, and create trading places for the settlement of Chinese, which gave each of them the opportunity to have a wife and engage in plowing and cultivating empty lands.
As a result, all Chinese began to live peacefully and go about their business...

Was it symbiosis or conquest? When the Chinese system of governance and organization prevailed for the majority of the sedentary population, it was overshadowed by the foreign power of the Khitan, who ruled as a "horde." In less than a hundred years, the Khitan "decomposed" under the influence of the benefits of sedentary civilization, starting with their leaders, which led to the weakening of their fighting skills.

The Song Empire was able to set the Jurchens (Nuyzhen), the Manchu ethnic group and the Khitan tributaries against the Liao Empire. In 1125, the Emperor of the Iron Empire was captured by the Jurchens and deposed, which was reported to the allied Song Empire.

The new “barbarians” did not “justify” the hopes of the Chinese state, but themselves captured the northern part of China, creating a Golden Empire instead of the Iron Empire.

And they immediately began attacks on the Chinese, besieging the capital of the Song Empire, Kaifeng (Kaifeng) in modern Henan Province. After a long struggle, in the 40s, the Song Empire recognized vassal dependence on the new Jurchen Empire.

The new invaders of northern China had no mechanisms for managing agricultural territories with urban centers. Therefore, in the 30s, the Jurchens introduced a unified Chinese system of government, preserving the administrative division according to the Chinese model, with local authorities consisting of Chinese and Khitan. At the same time, the Jurchen tribal system stood above them. But, as in the case of the Khitan, the warlike horsemen did not stand the test of the material possibilities of civilization. Already in 1180, the "History of the Golden Empire" reports that the Jurchen communities of Men'an and Mouke fell into luxury and drunkenness. The nobility adopted Chinese customs, the Chinese language, clothing, and even names and surnames. Emperor Shi Tzu (1123-1189) claimed that the traditional customs of the Nuncha were being forgotten. In 1185, an episode occurred when the emperor saw that both his guard and army, once formidable horsemen and archers, had forgotten how to shoot a bow. And in 1188, officials and soldiers on guard duty were forbidden to drink wine at work.

For the majority of farmers of the Chinese ethnic group, the power of the new Jin dynasty turned into a double oppression, since in addition to the tyranny of the nomads, they were oppressed by uncontrolled local officials, and bribery and theft flourished.

In just 50 years, the stern and formidable warriors, under the influence of material wealth, are transformed either into officials similar to the Chinese, or into simple peasants.

Of course, this is the fate of most nomadic conquering ethnic groups of the period of territorial-neighborly community, if they were inferior in numbers to the settled population. Any nomadic ethnic groups, having joined the fruits of civilization, lose their militancy.

The development of such societies was possible only through external aggression. And on the borders of the Golden Empire, which was certainly more powerful militarily than its neighbors, parity was nevertheless established with the empires of the Song and Xi Xia dynasties, as well as with the Mongol tribes in the north.

And again, a new wave of nomads at the beginning of the 13th century was to fall upon the agricultural civilization of China.


Mongols in battle. Miniature from the 14th century Jami' at-tawarikh. Manuscript. Tabriz. Prussian Cultural Heritage Library. Berlin. Germany

Mongols and the Yuan Empire


As is known, the Mongols conquered the territory inhabited by the agricultural Chinese ethnic group for 68 years, capturing two non-Chinese empires and one Chinese empire on the territory of modern China.

But was there some kind of symbiosis between the nomadic Mongols and the Chinese ethnic group? Let's not forget that the Khitans, Jurchens and Tanguts also lived in this territory.

As with previous nomadic conquerors, the military system of governing the victorious tribal union could not ensure the governance of a much more complex agricultural society.

In creating the Yuan Dynasty Empire, the Chinese-educated Mongolian warrior Kublai Sechen adopted the Chinese system of governance of the Song Dynasty Empire and even improved it, attracting Chinese officials to the government.

But whatever he declared, he could not act contrary to the structure of the nomadic society of conquerors. Therefore, in the Yuan Empire there was segregation, where the Mongols were at the top of the pyramid, and the Chinese, namely from the Song Empire, the most numerous ethnic group, were at the bottom: if a Mongol killed a Chinese, he either paid the cost of a donkey, or simply went on a campaign, and for striking a Mongol, a Chinese was executed. The lands of northern China were distributed to the Mongol nobility back in the 20s of the XNUMXth century, which barbarically exploited the population: the nomads did not think about reproduction in their farms and proceeded exclusively from their own needs.

This situation was in serious contradiction with the formally harmonious system of the new Yuan Empire. And in the conditions of the end of external wars, from which the Mongols could draw new resources, the situation became threatening for the power of the nomads.

And as usually happens in times of crisis, the authorities' vacillations (repressions against Chinese officials and just like that, an attempt to return to "conservative" values) led to even worse results. And the Mongolian elite, starting with the Great Khan, adopting the customs of the Chinese, ceased to be heroic. And if Kublai was a Mongolian hero, then this cannot be said about Toghon Temur (1271-1368). During the bloody war for independence, the Chinese were able to win, the last emperor of the Mongolian Yuan dynasty fled to Mongolia in 1367.

On January 21, 1368, Wang Zhu Yuanzhang declared the establishment of the Ming Dynasty ("Bright") empire.

The nomadic power was over before the fall of the Ming Empire in the 1449th century. All vestiges of Mongol power in China, including the Mongols, were destroyed. Although clashes and even Mongol campaigns into China continued, even besieging Beijing in 1450-XNUMX, the northern nomads did not pose the same threat as they had in the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries. In turn, the Chinese also made campaigns into the steppe and caused confusion among the various Mongol tribal unions.

In conclusion, it should be emphasized that to speak of a symbiosis between the steppe and farmers, based on Chinese history, means to ignore historical realities.

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  1. +5
    14 September 2025 05: 40
    Good morning Edward!
    You have sincerely pleased me with an interesting topic, thank you very much, I was already starting to worry that you had distanced yourself from publishing your works on VO.
    I tried to guess how many nomadic peoples conquered the Celestial Empire. I got 5 - although I might not remember someone.
    To be honest, I was always amazed by their attitude towards Genghis Khan as one of their own…? However, how long did the Normans last in Normandy…. Probably, the systemic laws of absorption of a less cultured society by a more cultured one are an axiom…
    I'm looking forward to the continuation of the series!
    1. +3
      14 September 2025 07: 39
      Good morning Vladislav!
      To be honest, I was always amazed by their attitude towards Genghis Khan as their own...?

      I don’t know myself, maybe it’s Swedish syndrome? laughing
      1. man
        +2
        14 September 2025 09: 01
        Actually Stockholm
        1. +3
          14 September 2025 09: 41
          maybe Swedish syndrome?
          Actually Stockholm

          Gamlastansky? Everyone in those parts laughing
      2. +3
        14 September 2025 12: 09
        Good day Eduard, I would add to the list of reasons the mobilization resource of a nomadic society, where every man is a warrior.
        In a landowning society, it is often different. However, there are exceptions: Ancient Rome and the Greek city-states.
        1. +2
          14 September 2025 14: 23
          Kind!!
          Yes, I agree...and I wrote about it hi
    2. +5
      14 September 2025 09: 26
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      To be honest, I was always amazed by their attitude towards Genghis Khan as their own...?


      "Genghis Khan is a great Chinese!"
      Yes, there is such a thing. And why shouldn't the Chinese consider Temujin a great Chinese?
      We consider Catherine the Great a Russian empress, although she is quite German. But she played her role as a ruler in the history of Russia, not Germany. So it is quite justified.
      Why is Temujin a "great Chinese"? Because he played the most important role in the history of China.
      Let me remind you that before Genghis Khan, China was divided into two warring kingdoms. In northern China, the conquerors, the Manchus-Jurchens, ruled, and in southern China, the Hans themselves. These two powers fought each other for many years. And if it were not for Genghis Khan, it might have remained that way, instead of a single China, there would have been two states and all local history would have gone in an alternative direction.
      But it was Genghis Khan who, having first conquered the Manchus and then southern China, made China a unified state again!
      Genghis Khan is the unifier of China. Yes, cruel and bloody, but did Huangdi act differently? And he is also honored as the first emperor.
      That is why Temujin is a "great Chinese". And the notorious "complexes" have nothing to do with it. History is generally a harsh lady, and is not very picky about her means. But only the result is important.
      1. +2
        14 September 2025 12: 05
        "Genghis Khan is a great Chinese!"
        Yes, there is such a thing. And why shouldn't the Chinese consider Temujin a great Chinese?
        We consider Catherine the Great to be a Russian empress, although she is completely German.

        It is worth noting that a number of modern historians believe that Temuchin was born within the borders of modern Russia.
        1. +2
          14 September 2025 13: 07
          It is quite possible. Although since he initially served in the Manchu army, it is appropriate to consider him a Manchu.
          But maybe he really was European and even...

          - Uncle, why do they call you "samurai"?
          - I'm from Amur!
    3. +1
      14 September 2025 17: 01
      -To be honest, I was always amazed by their attitude towards Genghis Khan as their own…?
      During the reign of the Ming dynasty, the Mongols were called Tatars, like all peoples north of the wall, "barbarians". The period of their rule (like Genghis Khan himself) was considered a disgrace.
      The rule of the previous Yuan dynasty was considered illegitimate.
      The Manchu Qing Dynasty made a "180-degree turn" and treated the great conqueror as a god, and other Mongol leaders with deep respect.
      The first person to call Genghis Khan a national hero of China was Chiang Kai-shek. Because he was the first Chinese to conquer Russia.
  2. +5
    14 September 2025 07: 40
    Quote: Edward Vashchenko
    whether there was some kind of symbiosis, or could there be, between an agricultural state and its nomadic neighbors, as in the example of China
    L. Gumilev, mentioned by the Author, spoke out against the Eurocentric view of the eternal hostility of the Steppe nomads with the sedentary farmers. He believed that there was a system of complex relations between these peoples, based on relative sympathy and respect for each other. Well, such Russian princes as Yuri Dolgoruky, Mstislav Udaloy, Yaroslav Vsevolodovich and some others of lesser rank, were even willingly born with the nomads, taking Polovtsian princesses as wives. But mixed marriages occurred not only among the rulers, but also among ordinary people, which is very well traced in the presence of common burials found. And in the relations of the Great Steppe with Russia, more characteristic are not wars, but trade, in which all parties were interested.

    I am not very familiar with Eastern history, but as L. Gumilev wrote - Ethnic groups can either live in peace in neighboring territories or be at odds for centuries, but they will obey the laws of development that are common to them...
    1. +5
      14 September 2025 09: 46
      L. Gumilev, mentioned by the Author, spoke out against the Eurocentric view of the eternal enmity between the nomads of the Steppe and the sedentary farmers.

      Good afternoon!
      L.N. Gumilyov had his own little thing about the important role of “Tatar families” in the history of Russia, to which he considered himself to be one.
      That is why he actively preached “symbiosis”, contrary to historical realities.
      And for the Eurocentrists, what do you care... Russians were driven into the steppe for many centuries...
      Best regards,
      hi
      1. +2
        14 September 2025 18: 03
        And for the Eurocentrists, what do you care... Russians were driven into the steppe for many centuries...

        Nomads have also been driving away nomads for many centuries.
        In my opinion, the symbiosis was influenced by politics (military force) and economics (trade).
        1. +2
          14 September 2025 20: 16
          Nomads have also been driving away nomads for many centuries.

          Basically, they cut out everyone who was taller than a cart wheel or drove them away.
  3. +2
    14 September 2025 07: 59
    I've been thinking about such things.
    Tamerlane was a representative of an oasis culture, although the striking force was the same nomads.
    1. +4
      14 September 2025 08: 38
      Tamerlane was a representative of the oasis culture

      A representative of the oasis culture, if such a definition were correct, is someone who works in the melon field.
      And Tamerlane was born into a nomadic Mongolian, Turkinized tribe. From childhood he rode a horse, shot a bow and hunted.

      Best regards,
      hi
      1. +1
        14 September 2025 09: 15
        Tamerlane was not a nomad and did not live in a tent, but in his palace in Samarkand.
        European knights were also masters of horse riding and bow hunting. This does not prove anything.
        1. +6
          14 September 2025 09: 40
          Tamerlane was not a nomad and did not live in a tent, but in his palace in Samarkand.

          Tamerlane was born in a nomadic camp, lived in a yurt, and occupied the palace of Samarkand with his sword.
          Like Turgul, the founder of the Seljuk dynasty, he was born in a yurt, albeit a rich one, and later lived in the palace of Nishapur.
          Like Attila, ... etc.
          1. +3
            14 September 2025 13: 00
            A true nomad does not change his way of life. In Soviet times, some nomadic peoples had to be forced to live a settled life, and sometimes it only partially worked.
            A nomad can be taken out of the steppe, but the steppe out of the nomad - with great difficulty. In Mongolia, even today, there are many who do not want to exchange their yurts for palaces.
        2. 0
          15 October 2025 12: 17
          But a bow for a knight is a maverick, not comme il faut, let's say, a weapon not for nobles.
      2. +2
        14 September 2025 11: 03
        Yes, Tamerlane was a nomad, as was the main part of his army, but his base was in the city, in the oases, unlike the same early Mongols, for whom there was no city initially.
        1. +2
          14 September 2025 11: 19
          Here the question is different. You wrote:
          Tamerlane was a representative of an oasis culture, although the striking force was the same nomads.

          And why did the oases need this striking force? What did it matter to Samarkand that Tamerlane took Yelets? Or that Bayazet was defeated?
          It was precisely the presence of a nomadic, parasitic mindset in the countries of Central and Middle Asia that led these once flourishing production areas to decline and degradation.
          That is, the nomads pumped them out to the bottom.
          hi
          1. +2
            14 September 2025 11: 28
            Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
            And why did the oases need this striking force?

            Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
            That is, the nomads pumped them out to the bottom.

            I don't know, maybe so. I just want to say that Tamerlane was a different nomad, unlike the Mongols. Now I'm listening to you.
            By the way, classic nomads differ greatly from each other in technology; the Mongols and Kalmyks are completely different from the Kazakhs, Nogais and their various derivatives.
            1. +3
              14 September 2025 11: 35
              I just want to say that Tamerlane was a different nomad, unlike the Mongols.

              I agree with you, they are all separated in time and space. I wrote about this in this article.
              But the question is not about the difference between nomads, but about the fact that in symbiosis the behavior is the same. Again, there are nuances.
              Best regards,
              hi
              1. +4
                14 September 2025 11: 53
                I'll tell you: working as a geologist, I observed nomads in their natural habitat for more than 30 years, comparing them with history, I understood that they are different, the Kalmyks in the south of Russia peacefully coexisted with the Nogais, which means they have different landscapes, each to his own, although all sorts of things happened, but there was no irreconcilable confrontation, and for a long time I could not understand what the difference was, I was in Mongolia and in the entire steppe zone up to Montenegro.
                One fact suggested: a Kazakh yurt is twice as light as a Mongolian ger. Kazakhs, Nogai long-distance truckers, summer winter pastures are hundreds or even thousands of kilometers away, Mongols in a circle at a short distance, live only where there is no snow in winter. In modern Mongolia, Kazakhs live in the west, where the humidity is higher and they can drive cattle hundreds of kilometers away from the snow. When the humidity increased in Kalmykia at the end of the 18th century, some Kalmyks galloped back to Asia, and when aridification occurred in the 17th century, they came here.
                1. +3
                  14 September 2025 12: 20
                  I just want to say that Tamerlane was a different nomad, unlike the Mongols.

                  They are all different, but the social structure is the same. Nomadic farming is more vulnerable than agricultural farming.
                  By and large, the expansion of the steppe began in the "hungry" years. However, this applies to everyone, the same Vikings also initially went to rob monasteries not because they were fat.
                  1. +3
                    14 September 2025 12: 29
                    Hungry years for farmers are periods of aridization, fields burn, forests burn, there is nothing to eat, they are in decline, but the nomads like this kind of weather, for them it is horror, horror is snow, where there is no snow, the fields of hungry farmers turn into beautiful pastures.
                    This is how the chaos happens, aridization is a plus for the nomads, when there is moisture, farmers rise up, agriculture multiplies, and is more productive, and the nomads are driven into the remote steppe, where they belong.
                  2. +3
                    14 September 2025 12: 36
                    The same Vikings also initially went to rob monasteries not out of sheer luxury.
                    You're wrong, my friend. It's precisely because of fat. A population explosion and, as a consequence, overpopulation, does not happen because of hunger.
                    1. +3
                      14 September 2025 13: 22
                      Overpopulation? How many people lived in Scandinavia, Norway in particular? A pittance. There was simply little fertile land, the terrain was mountainous. The Scandinavians called themselves "Westfoldings", that is, inhabitants of the western ridge. In short, they were highlanders. And the highlanders, whether in Scandinavia, Scotland, or the Caucasus, had harsh morals and a penchant for robbery, since it was difficult to feed oneself with honest work. The ancient Scandinavians were forced to master whaling, clearly not because of an excess of calories. And the same Vikings went into labor not because life was good, they had nothing to offer except their strong hands, and they were very hungry.
                      1. +3
                        14 September 2025 16: 33
                        Quote: Illanatol
                        And the highlanders, whether in Scandinavia, Scotland, or the Caucasus, had harsh morals and a penchant for robbery,

                        It seems to me that our Slavic ancestors, at a certain period in history, also had a tendency to rob their neighbors)
                      2. +2
                        14 September 2025 18: 07
                        [quote]It seems to me that our Slavic ancestors, at a certain period in history, also had a tendency to rob their neighbors)[quote]
                        - and how it also looks very much like a deal with the main robbers of Europe - the Varangians. All the loot went through the Slavs to Byzantium and the Caliphate.
                      3. +3
                        14 September 2025 20: 30
                        It seems to me that our Slavic ancestors, at a certain period in history, also had a tendency to rob their neighbors)

                        You're all lying, Ivan...
                        Our ancestors were white and fluffy, they did not take Constantinople, they did not nail shields to the gates, they did not cut Askold and Dir for their pretty eyes, they did not go to the Drevlians again for tribute, they burned ambassadors in the bathhouse and did not bury them in the ground, they did not talk informally to each other and did not offend the Khazars. They were baptized as soon as they appeared in the Dnieper and only later learned all the bad things…
                      4. +2
                        15 September 2025 08: 37
                        Well, if you believe the Armenian chronicles, then some "Rus" offended the Byzantines even before Rurik was called.
                      5. +1
                        15 September 2025 21: 49
                        Quote: Illanatol
                        Well, if you believe the Armenian chronicles, then some "Rus" offended the Byzantines even before Rurik was called.

                        Not only that, the Byzantines themselves described the invasion of the Rus (Dormonts) as a scourge of God, whose nice habits cause a natural shock in any person.
                        Oh times, about morals!
                      6. +1
                        15 September 2025 15: 09
                        Okay, here's how it was:
                        History of Russian Goverment
                        1
                        Listen guys
                        What will tell you grandfather.
                        Our land is rich
                        There is no order in it.
                        2
                        And this truth, children
                        For a thousand years
                        Our ancestors dared:
                        Order de, you see, no.
                        3
                        And they all became under the banner
                        And they say: “How are we to be?
                        Let's send to the Vikings:
                        Let them come to reign.
                        4
                        After all, the Germans are too busy
                        He knows the darkness and light
                        Our earth is rich,
                        There is only no order in it. ”
                        5
                        Messengers at a brisk pace
                        Went there
                        And they say to the Vikings:
                        “Come, gentlemen!
                        6
                        We will send you gold
                        What Kiev sweets;
                        Our land is rich
                        There is just no order in it”...
                      7. +2
                        15 September 2025 08: 40
                        Definite, you say? Well, rather very vague. They started in the 6th century A.D., and ended up... I'm not sure that Stenka Razin was the last "cool collective farm guy"... all the same, it was in vain that he named the Persian princess Gerasim Mumu... I feel sorry for the girl. laughing
                      8. +2
                        15 September 2025 15: 11
                        I feel sorry for the girl

                        That's true, but she was ugly and didn't know how to cook at all!
                      9. +1
                        15 September 2025 21: 43
                        Quote: naidas
                        I feel sorry for the girl

                        That's true, but she was ugly and didn't know how to cook at all!

                        Everything was much more banal - they didn’t give a ransom for Levka… laughing
                      10. +1
                        15 September 2025 22: 07
                        not the people, they interpreted it differently, the chieftain couldn't resist, he took the princess drunk, worked all night, and in the morning his friends opened his eyes, laughed at him, and he himself became more sober and saw beauty - terrible. I wouldn't abandon mine, I know who fed me, who feeds and will feed me, but here it's different:
                        "Look at you, brothers, the chieftain
                        He traded us for a woman!
                        I spent the night messing around with her –
                        "The next morning I myself became a woman."
                        Mockery, whispers
                        The chieftain hears.
                        The Captured Persian Woman
                        He hugged the full figure tighter.
                        Angrily filled with blood
                        Ataman's eyes,
                        Black eyebrows drooped,
                        A storm is brewing…
                        "Oh, my dear nurse,
                        Volga – mother river!
                        You haven't seen any gifts
                        From the Don Cossack!…
                        So that there is no shame
                        In front of free people,
                        Before the free river, -
                        Here, nurse... take it!
                        With a powerful swing he lifts
                        The overwhelmed princess
                        And without looking, he throws it away
                        Into the oncoming wave.
                  3. +3
                    14 September 2025 13: 05
                    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                    Nomadic farming is more vulnerable than agricultural farming.


                    Very controversial. Any clan has a whole set of places for nomadism. If one place is bad, change to another. And what can a farmer do? A house is not a yurt, you can't take it away on carts, and it is tied to the land by the power of the local aristocrat-landowner.

                    Well, everyone who could robbed robbed, if the situation allowed it. Russian ushkuiniks robbed so much that the "evil Tatars" could have envied them, although they were not nomads.
                    1. +2
                      14 September 2025 20: 43
                      Where can a farmer go?

                      Slash-and-burn agriculture forced the community to change its place of residence approximately once every 12-18 years. Only the emergence of two-field farming and the development of trade stopped the process of migration of farmers. By the way, it is worth evaluating the expansion of the Slavs to the east.
                      I counted 4 Novgorods alone from memory.
                      1. +2
                        15 September 2025 08: 35
                        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                        Slash-and-burn agriculture forced the community to change its place of residence approximately once every 12-18 years. Only the emergence of two-field farming and the development of trade stopped the process of migration of farmers. By the way, it is worth evaluating the expansion of the Slavs to the east.


                        Yes, I agree. Therefore, primitive forms of agriculture could indeed be combined with a completely nomadic way of life. Especially since people lived in clans rather than in communities in those days. It was the need to develop crafts (especially those related to metallurgy) that forced people to switch to a sedentary way of life, much more than agriculture. The first cities were either craft centers, or military settlements (as in Rus'), or both together.

                        If you add Naples, you get five "Novgorods". laughing
                    2. 0
                      15 October 2025 12: 23
                      Any nomadic clan has only their own ancestral places for migration, and it is impossible to move to other people's pastures due to war and other reasons.
          2. 0
            14 September 2025 12: 57
            Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
            And why did the oases need this striking force? What did it matter to Samarkand that Tamerlane took Yelets? Or that Bayazet was defeated?


            War often promotes business. Yelets was no good, true. That's why Tamerlane turned his army back and didn't go any further. The reason for the campaign was that Tamerlane had serious problems with Tokhtamysh, and Tamerlane perceived the Russians as Tokhtamysh's allies. When he became convinced that this was not the case, he stopped his military actions against the Russians.
            In fact, Samarkand under Tamerlane was one of the most developed and rich cities in Central Asia. In his campaigns, Tamerlane took into account the interests of his merchants, freeing them from unnecessary competition. He fought with Bayazet on the basis of competition, probably for the final section of the Great Silk Road.
            The decline of the region is primarily due to the opening of more profitable maritime trade routes with India and China. The GSR lost the competition to maritime trade.
          3. +2
            14 September 2025 16: 30
            Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
            It was precisely the presence of a nomadic, parasitic mindset in the countries of Central and Middle Asia that led these once flourishing production areas to decline and degradation.

            That's the whole symbiosis.
  4. +2
    14 September 2025 09: 12
    An important factor in nomadic economy was that it could not produce surpluses to support hierarchical structures that did not participate in production.



    In fact, livestock farming allows for a large amount of surplus product with extremely modest expenditure of labor resources.

    A dozen farmers could hardly feed one dependent (an official or a warrior). One nomadic shepherd could manage a herd of hundreds of heads and feed several dependents.

    That is, the nomads had surpluses. But there really was little motivation to have complex social structures. And why? Hoarding is not held in high esteem by nomads, and there are no complex labor processes requiring the mass use of labor. But the latter became one of the reasons for the development of statehood. To build pyramids, temples, canals for melioration, mass labor is needed, hence the need to complicate social organization... among sedentary peoples. Again, large settlements, cities with the need to harmonize the life support of large masses of the population. Where does the word "politics" come from?

    So the nomads really had an excess population (opportunities), but did not have and do not have a worthy motivation for the development of statehood. That is why all ancient civilizations began with the transition to a sedentary way of life. Savage nomads were capable of plundering and raiding, but it was the civilized sedentary peoples who stood and stand behind the development of technology, including military technology.
    1. +2
      14 September 2025 09: 31
      That is, the nomads had surpluses.

      Having a large herd does not mean having surplus.
      If we turn to the sources, and in particular to the ethnographic material that recorded the life of nomads in the 19th-20th centuries, then contrary to popular belief... nomads consumed very little meat, and even then, we are talking about wealthy people.
      The main food was milk and dairy products.
      Therefore, nomads on a massive scale always mean poverty.
      It was only during robbery expeditions that one could eat; I remember how a monk from the Saint-Galen monastery found himself at a feast of a gang of Hungarians (Хв.) and, for the first time in his life, ate his fill.
      But this will be a separate article.
      And agriculture provides a stable and consistent income, especially when there is a surplus of grain that compensates for crop failures.
      And I don't want to say that this life is paradise. The Russian peasant in the 19th century also never saw meat, but agricultural activity ensured gradual accumulation, even in conditions of epidemics and lean periods.
      Best regards,
      hi
      1. +3
        14 September 2025 12: 48
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        Having a large herd does not mean having surplus.


        So, so. The beggars were those nomads who did not have their own herds and were forced to graze other people's cattle. The nomads also had their own paupers. And the reason was that there were fewer and fewer places for nomads (settled and more developed people occupied territories), but the people still multiplied and there were more and more of them. The 19th-20th centuries are not an indicator at all, as if earlier times were discussed here.

        Well, cattle breeding also provides quite a good income. The cattle reproduce themselves with a minimum of labor, and the surplus cattle can be used for barter trade with sedentary farmers.
        But nomad warriors are so-so. Their economic structure does not promote organization and discipline, or any orderly activity in general. At the same time, peasant farmers (accustomed to hard work) produce the best warriors. This was known even in ancient Rome.
        1. 0
          15 September 2025 16: 58
          Quote: Illanatol

          But nomadic warriors are so-so. Their economic structure does not promote organization and discipline, or any orderly activity in general.

          Anatoly, I'll correct you a little, if you allow me - nomads are bad soldiers. As for discipline, in the traditions of the clan - unquestioning obedience to the elder. Also, the habit of nomadism should be close to the state of a military campaign.
          1. 0
            16 September 2025 08: 00
            Well, that's in the family tradition. But according to Gumilev, the warriors were recruited from "people of long will", renegade anarchists who did not fit well into the traditional way of life because of their willfulness. Why such types would sacrifice their personal freedom and independence to become obedient and disciplined soldiers remains a mystery to me.

            In addition, the clans and families of the steppe nomads were not very inclined to close communication with each other. Well, the nomadic way of life itself does not contribute to this, it is not profitable for large groups of people to settle together.

            Yes, close. But the life of a farmer in the Middle Ages was close to extreme by today's standards, and it also promoted organization, solidarity, and mutual assistance. Qualities that are valuable even in our time in combat situations.

            I will not go deep into the topic of who these "Tatar-Mongols" really were, but in my opinion they were much closer to those who were called "Cossacks" than to the Mongolian Oirats. The Cossacks had the notorious "passionarity" until modern times, modern Mongols do not have this quality at all (according to my personal observations).
            1. 0
              16 September 2025 09: 11
              I agree with Gumilev in the sense that the most passionate were sent to fight, which is why he made a distinction between a warrior and a soldier - a soldat (zollen - to have to in German, if my memory serves me right). As for the difference in relations within the clan and the army - here, it seems to me, upbringing should have played a role, transferring communication skills to another environment. It is not for nothing that such concepts as "father-commander" and "front-line brotherhood" still exist.
              As for the habit of nomadism - it seems to me that the main thing is not the ability to endure extreme sports, but the habit of organized movement with everything necessary on a campaign. In relation to military skills, this is more important. Regarding today's Mongols, I agree with you - in general, every nation has age periods, and modern Mongols are no longer the same. However, in every people-ethnos there is always a whole spectrum of characters, and the character of an entire ethnic group can only be judged by the way of life operating within it, and not by individual representatives. I met only old people and children in yurts, and young people - only from afar, in the form of dapper tsiriks-demobilized soldiers, in white felt boots with heels)
      2. 0
        14 September 2025 18: 17
        The Russian peasant in the 19th century also never saw meat, but agricultural activity ensured gradual accumulation, even in conditions of epidemics and lean periods.

        The same is debatable: after 1861, the Russian peasant was able to accumulate debts on redemptions amounting to 400% of the original cost by 1905.
        And if the nomads threw out extra people into external conflicts (there were also internal wars, I assume not at the agricultural level), in agricultural communities these are internal wars - uprisings, civil wars.
  5. +2
    14 September 2025 10: 05
    Gumilev formulated the concept of symbiosis only for Rus' and the Horde.
    He hasn't written anything like that for East Asia. The way he poses the question is more like creating a 'straw man'
    Nomads can be economically independent, although this dramatically reduces their standard of living.
    Nomads regularly viewed the settled as prey and the foundation of well-being. This has even entered into modern concepts.
    1. +4
      14 September 2025 10: 58
      Quote: Engineer
      Gumilev formulated the concept of symbiosis only for Rus' and the Horde
      I will quote L. Gumilyov once again. And my beloved self too:
      Quote: Luminman
      Ethnic groups can either live in peace in neighboring territories or be at odds for centuries, but they will obey the laws of development that are common to them...
      Those. the system of relations between nomads and settled people in China was exactly the same as the relations between settled Rus' and the Steppe. Well, or almost the same...
      1. +2
        14 September 2025 11: 22
        That is, the system of relations between nomads and settled people in China was exactly the same as the relations between settled Rus' and the Steppe. Well, or almost the same...

        ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
        1. +1
          14 September 2025 18: 22
          I won't name the source, but I read an example of why Yakutia is so big. The reason is that the Yakuts, unlike their neighbors, sided with the newcomers, the Russians. It turned out that the Yakuts pursued a pro-Russian policy, and the Russians did not interfere with the Yakuts putting pressure on their neighbors, expanding their territory and population. Isn't that a symbiosis?
      2. +3
        14 September 2025 13: 15
        Let's just remember how the "Bulgarians" people were formed (Slavs plus a few Turks led by Khan Asparukh).
    2. +2
      14 September 2025 13: 14
      Quote: Engineer
      Nomads regularly viewed sedentary people as prey and the foundation of their well-being.


      But in practice, it was the settled and developed peoples who subjugated the less developed savages. Most of the blacks in Africa and the North American Indians were completely nomadic. And what happened to them when they encountered the developed Europeans?

      So the nomads were prey. What can you do, whoever has more advanced technology dominates. This is true in our time, and it was true 1000 years ago.
      A forge can still be taken to a nomadic camp, but mines - definitely not. And without crafts, metalworking - what kind of war?
      1. +4
        14 September 2025 13: 30
        The turning point in the confrontation with the nomads occurred only with the development of firearms.
        Nomads regularly emerged victorious in confrontations with their sedentary neighbors and founded superpowers.
        The most illiterate thesis about the metallurgy of nomads is repeated for the hundredth time.
        The nomads did not hesitate to settle down themselves when mastering metallurgy. Like the Turks in Altai. At the same time, the settled clans of the Turks continued to be part of the Turkic society. The tribe supplied them with what they needed, receiving metal products. The second practice of obtaining iron was the creation of settlements from conquered settled people where they built bloomery furnaces. This is what the Avars did.
        The nomads generated many military innovations. Faceted arrowheads, composite bows, soft saddle, hard saddle, stirrup, sabre. The concept of the cataphract, the concept of the universal horseman-archer-spearman.
        Some of the innovations are directly related to the development of metallurgy.
        The same Kurta writes that the early Avars in Europe had spearheads made of good armor-piercing steel. That is, development followed the path of confrontation with armored warriors. The main enemy of the Avars before their exodus to Europe were the Tele and the Turks. Also nomads.
        And there is a lot of such information.
        1. +1
          14 September 2025 13: 42
          But at the same time, the same Tatar-Mongols are credited with using gunpowder...
          If nomads transitioned to a settled way of life, they a priori became settled and ceased to be nomads. If part of an ethnic group transitioned, it most likely found itself in a privileged position and subjugated the less developed, who retained their nomadic way of life.
          I don't know of any nomads who founded "superpowers". Very often such "nomads" simply had, mainly, a mounted army, but were quite sedentary. Like the Arabs, the Turks, the same Manchus.

          I am not sure that these "innovations" are the merit of the nomads. Most likely, they used the inventions of sedentary peoples.
          The Hittites were the first to use composite bows, then the Egyptians. These are not nomadic peoples.
          Hard saddles appeared in Mongolia very late.
          Cataphracts... usually associate their appearance with the Persians, the Persians are not nomads. The Scythians also partly lived a settled life and practiced agriculture.
          The fact that the Avars had them does not mean that the Avars produced them themselves. The settled people, the artisans, produced them, the Avar warriors simply used them. Modern Mongols often have hunting carbines, but they are unlikely to produce them themselves.
          1. +2
            14 September 2025 13: 59
            But at the same time, the same Tatar-Mongols are credited with using gunpowder

            No, they don't.
            I don't know of any nomads who founded "superpowers".

            Wow, that's a powerful argument.
            The Turks were not sedentary during the period of the Turkic el. Don't write nonsense.
            Cataphracts may have appeared in the Persian army under Gaugamela. However, Olbricht believes that these were Saka contingents. Nomads.
            The Parthians are usually credited with being the inventors of the cataphracts. The Parthians were nomads.
            You have not learned the difference between transhumance and nomadic herding with permanent wintering sites.
            The Scythians had permanent wintering places. However, the transition to a settled way of life began only in Crimea relatively late.

            I forgot about the Egyptian composite bow. My mistake.

            The Avars used their weapons because there were no analogues in Europe. This is a fact. Moreover, the Avar armor was borrowed by the settled inhabitants of Germany and even Byzantium. And not the other way around.

            What I wrote can be easily verified. You have only speculations. There are no facts.
            1. +1
              15 September 2025 08: 27
              Quote: Engineer
              No, they don't.


              https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/k-voprosu-o-sozdanii-i-rasprostranenii-porohovogo-oruzhiya


              Quote: Engineer
              Cataphracts may have appeared in the Persian army under Gaugamela. However, Olbricht believes that these were Saka contingents. Nomads.


              Perhaps... more likely, cataphracts appeared in Lydia, then similar warriors appeared among the Persians. The Parthians, having created their dynasty in the Persian Empire, ceased to be nomads. You can conquer a large state while sitting in the saddle, but you cannot rule it while sitting in the saddle.

              Sakas is the self-name of the Scythians. The Scythians were partly farmers and were skilled in crafts, which implies that some of the Scythians were sedentary. The Greeks bought the same grain from the Scythians in large quantities.

              The Avars used weapons borrowed from the Caucasians, who were very skilled in making cold weapons. The same sabres were most likely invented by the Dagestani Kubaichi, then the sabres came to the Avars and Hungarian-Ugrians. In Europe, the same sabres were long called "batorki".
              Well, what can you do, the Caucasus was advanced in terms of some technologies. Let's remember the state of Urartu, from which even the Hellenes had something to learn. The Caucasians are definitely not nomads, there is simply nowhere to roam there. In general, the Caucasus was a very progressive region, the Iron Age began there, when other regions were still in the Bronze Age, and the first war chariots appeared in the Caucasus, earlier than those of the Hittites.
              It is not for nothing that in the West representatives of the European race are called "Caucasians". The territory from the Caucasus to the Lower Urals is a real forge of ethnic groups and technologies.
              1. +1
                15 September 2025 09: 26
                The article does not say a word about the invention of gunpowder weapons by the Mongols. Only about the possible use. It follows from it that gunpowder was invented in China and perfected by the Arabs.

                It is possible... more likely that the cataphracts appeared in Lydia

                Even worse.
                There is a definition of cataphracts by Khazanov, which is widespread. Individual armored horsemen are not cataphracts. The Persian horseman in the image from Chan wears armor on himself and on his horse. He is not a cataphract. Why? I wrote in the article .
                Saki is the self-name of the Scythians.

                Sakas is the name of the Iranian-speaking tribes, whom the Greeks called the Eastern Scythians. Their self-name is not exactly known. You will have to prove separately that there were farmers among them.
                The Avars used weapons borrowed from the Caucasians

                This is something new. There will be no source, of course.
                The same sabers were most likely invented by the Dagestani Kubaichi

                Sabers first appeared in the area of ​​the Turgesh Khaganate according to Khudyakov and Gorbunov
                The first chariots appeared in the area of ​​the Sintashta culture. This is a well-known fact.
                1. 0
                  15 September 2025 13: 28
                  I wrote about the use, not the invention of gunpowder. Gunpowder was most likely invented by the Indians.

                  Why separate? Heavy cavalry was used quite widely. And the Sarmatians, whom the Greeks and Romans called cataphracts, were not so versatile, they did not use bows as willingly as the Sakas or Parthians.

                  "In the 1st millennium BC, the Andronovites' successors in Kazakhstan were the Sakas. The Saka tribes combined three types of cattle breeding: nomadic, semi-nomadic and sedentary. The Sakas bred mainly sheep, horses and a small amount of cattle. They roamed the vast steppe expanses with their herds. Only the Sakas of Southern Kazakhstan and Fergana lived a sedentary life and were engaged in agriculture. Cattle and cattle products quickly acquired an exchange function and created all the conditions for trade between the nomadic world and sedentary states.

                  They made wheeled transport, leather and wooden utensils, quivers, short swords-knives and other things necessary for nomadic and semi-nomadic life. According to their way of life, the Sakas were divided into cattle breeders, who led a nomadic or semi-nomadic life, and the settled population of the oases. The Saka cattle breeders bred horses, rams, and cows. The main dwelling of the nomadic Sakas was the yurt. The Sakas, who lived in the Syr Darya valley, were engaged in agriculture, using artificial irrigation. The Saka farmers built themselves adobe houses, and in places where there was a lot of forest, wooden houses. Over time, the settled population not only had villages, but also cities, in which crafts and trade flourished. The Saka craftsmen achieved special skill in the manufacture of metal tools, weapons, and jewelry. The Sakas had connections with the peoples of Altai, Siberia, the East and Europe."

                  https://studfile.net/preview/5331565/page:3/

                  Well, that's another question about sabers. Very often real sabers are confused with just curved swords. It's clear that the line between them is blurred.

                  Well, I wrote that the region from the Caucasus to the southern Urals is rich in innovations. So the Persians and Egyptians can smoke on the sidelines.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                  2. 0
                    15 September 2025 14: 27
                    I wrote about the use, not the invention, of gunpowder.
                    .
                    OK. I need to be more careful. However, the firearms work is connected with the presence of Chinese engineers in the Mongolian army. So no surprises.

                    Heavy cavalry was used quite extensively.

                    Heavy cavalry oriented towards ramming attacks was not used in the East on a large scale until Gaugamela according to Olbricht. Or until the battle of Panion, when the cataphracts first appeared under their own name.

                    But the Sarmatians, whom the Greeks and Romans called cataphracts, were not so versatile and did not use bows as readily as the Sakas or Parthians.

                    The universal warrior, effectively combining a bow and a spear, is a later product - Turkic-Avar. Perhaps it appeared a little earlier (riders of the great Orlat plate)

                    In the 1st millennium BC, the successors of the Andronov people on the territory of Kazakhstan were the Sakas. The Saka tribes combined three types of cattle breeding: nomadic, semi-nomadic and sedentary.

                    In the work all post-Andronovo tribes are called Sakas. This is a conventional name in this case.
                    However, all movements in the region are connected with the nomadic population. They fought with the Persians, Macedonians. They crushed the Greco-Bactrian kingdom and reached India.

                    Well, that's another question about sabers. Very often real sabers are confused with just crooked swords.

                    No problem. Prove that Khudyakov and Gorbunov are wrong.
                    Well, I wrote that the region from the Caucasus to the southern Urals is rich in innovations.

                    You can write anything.
                    Give examples of early chariots in the Caucasus. Early Caucasian sabers, weapon samples from which the Avars' weapons can be derived. Then we can talk specifically
                    1. 0
                      16 September 2025 08: 14
                      Quote: Engineer
                      The universal warrior, effectively combining a bow and a spear, is a later product - Turkic-Avar. Perhaps it appeared a little earlier (riders of the great Orlat plate)


                      First: “cataphracts” is a term invented not by the Turks, but by the Romans, and we will proceed from this.
                      But that's not even the main thing. The main thing that distinguishes cataphracts from other warriors is not even the type of ammunition. Cataphracts are, first of all, warriors with a special mentality, heightened subjectivity, and a concept of personal honor. These are warriors who were not simple executors of the will of the ruler and commander, they are characterized by personal initiative and a certain independence, essentially a special privileged class.
                      Cataphracts are the prototype of chivalry, which, as a phenomenon, appeared in the East, and not in Europe.
                      So the standard cataphract can be considered the batyr Rustam from "Shah-Nameh".

                      "My throne is a saddle,
                      my scepter is a sword,
                      My glory on the field!
                      What is Shah Kavus?
                      The whole world is my power!

                      So, Russian heroes can also be considered as cataphracts, Ilya Muromets and his comrades... they also demonstrated personal independence and honor, sometimes they openly conflicted with Prince Vladimir. And yes, they were quite versatile, well-armed warriors.

                      Give examples of early chariots in the Caucasus.


                      I didn't write anything like that. Chariots are useless in the Caucasus, the terrain is not very flat.

                      Real sabres appeared no earlier than the 12th-13th centuries. The Avars used curved swords during the era of their Khaganate.
                      The difference between a sabre and a curved sword is about the same as the difference between a rapier and a one-handed sword. The fighting technique is completely different.
                      1. 0
                        16 September 2025 09: 11
                        First: "cataphracts" is a term invented not by the Turks, but by the Romans, and we will proceed from this.

                        The term cataphracts was coined by the Greeks. The Roman cataphractarius is a tracing of the Greek.
                        In the given passage I wrote not about cataphracts, but about universal warriors. These are different concepts.
                        The universal warrior, effectively combining a bow and a spear, is a later product - the Turkic-Avar

                        This concept appeared much later than the cataphracts.
                        But that's not even the main thing. The main thing that distinguishes cataphracts from other warriors is not even the type of ammunition. Cataphracts are, first of all, warriors with a special mentality, heightened subjectivity, and a concept of personal honor.

                        This is a meaningless definition.
                        Firdausi wrote three centuries after the collapse of the Sassanid Empire. His Rustam is a reflection of the author's own ideals.
                        And does he call his heroes cataphracts?
                        We know nothing about the mentality of Parthian, Armenian and Kushan cataphracts, so your definition is completely speculative.
                        Khazanov's definition is purely technical, understandable and constructive.
                        Cataphracts wear heavy armour, wield long spears, are close combat oriented and operate detachments
                        That is, cataphracts are a branch of the military, and not individual daredevils.
                        I didn't write anything like that. Chariots are useless in the Caucasus, the terrain is not very flat.

                        Okay, write about the "Ciurcaucasia". Where they supposedly appeared before the Hittites.

                        Real sabres appeared no earlier than the 12th-13th centuries. The Avars used curved swords during the era of their Khaganate.
                        The difference between a sabre and a curved sword is about the same as the difference between a rapier and a one-handed sword. The fighting technique is completely different.

                        Well then tell us based on the sources. And not with your own interpretation.
                    2. -1
                      16 September 2025 08: 26
                      Heavy cavalry oriented towards ramming attacks was not used on a large scale in the East until Gaugamela, according to Olbricht.


                      Again this boring old joke about a ramming strike. In fact, heavy cavalry used spears in a much more diverse way. The rider actually struck with a spear, using muscular force, not mass-inertia. Moreover, they could use not only direct thrusting strikes, but also side cutting ones, trying to hit the most vulnerable parts of the enemy.

                      And for a ramming attack it is cheaper and easier to use a herd of bulls, rather than elite warriors.
                      1. 0
                        16 September 2025 09: 21
                        Again this boring old joke about a ramming attack. In fact, heavy cavalry used spears in a much more diverse way

                        One does not contradict or exclude the other.
                        And for a ramming attack it is cheaper and easier to use a herd of bulls, rather than elite warriors.
                        .
                        Apparently common sense has finally left the chat)
              2. 0
                15 September 2025 11: 54
                Quote: Illanatol
                In general, the Caucasus was a very progressive region, the Iron Age began there when other regions were still in the Bronze Age,

                The Caucasus is in antiphase with the rest of the world, the collapse of bronze is a sharp climate change - aridization, occurred around 1200 years BC, the whole world "burned out, dried up" most civilizations perished completely, Egypt fell into decline, the Nile still remained, and in the Caucasus in the mountains and plateaus it became relatively beautiful, there the humidity remained, and during the "dark ages" in the rest of the territories, civilization flourished there, this is Urartu, and the Koban culture, the Koban people first lived on bronze, fortunately they had their own local one, then they switched to iron.
                1. 0
                  15 September 2025 13: 09
                  Where did this "local bronze" come from, may I ask?
                  Bronze is not mined. Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin. The problem is that these two metals are rarely found together. So, the civilizations of the "Bronze Age" mined copper in Cyprus (either the island was named after the local name for copper - cuprum, or the metal was named after the island), and tin - for example, in Britain ("Tin Islands"). Some additives - even in Afghanistan. One of the reasons why trade relations in the "Bronze Age" were very wide.
                  1. 0
                    15 September 2025 13: 15
                    Caucasian arsenic bronzes, both of which are found in the Caucasus and are still mined. They were generally found on the surface back then, and are still found today, but not on an industrial scale.
                    1. 0
                      15 September 2025 13: 34
                      Arsenic-based bronze is of rather low quality (not very suitable for making weapons), inferior to classic bronze, an alloy of copper and tin. There is little tin in the Caucasus, so it had to be imported. When this became impossible, they began to switch to iron.
                      1. 0
                        15 September 2025 13: 46
                        Yes, they switched to iron when there was no bronze or its components as a result of the breakdown of connections after the collapse of the Bronze Age, when in some places civilization began to revive and there was no bronze. The Scythians brought iron in the Northern Caucasus in its finished form in the form of the Akinaks in the 8th-7th century BC.
                      2. 0
                        16 September 2025 11: 19
                        Quote: Illanatol
                        Arsenic-based bronze is of rather low quality (not very suitable for making weapons), inferior to classic bronze, an alloy of copper and tin.

                        Nothing similar. In its technophysical properties, arsenic bronze is not inferior to tin, and in the variety of grades suitable for certain types of economic activity, it even surpasses it.
                        The transition to tin bronze is caused by other reasons. First of all, the toxicity of production, as well as the impossibility of processing.
                  2. +1
                    15 September 2025 13: 24
                    Copper ore in the Caucasus in the near-surface zone usually contains arsenic, bronze is automatically produced there.
  6. +4
    14 September 2025 10: 13
    PS A nomadic society can certainly accumulate surpluses. You just don't need to consider the model of year-round nomadism exclusively.
    You can see the same Pazyryk burial mounds filled with "surplus" even despite the plundering in ancient times
    1. +1
      14 September 2025 10: 53
      You can see the same Pazyryk burial mounds filled with "surplus" even despite the plundering in ancient times

      Denis, good afternoon,
      it is impossible.
      Wasn't there some fat tail fat lying around in Pazaryk? Or wineskins with kumiss?
      and how can burials, from the point of view of methodology, the same archeology, testify to accumulation?
      In the Pazaryk burial mounds there are "treasures", "they were carried away by the deceased (Pazaryk "princess") to the afterlife."
      And not set aside as cash for the purchase, "on the advice of comrades" of "Moskvich" laughing
      If it's difficult, open my burial mound and take some antiques.
      Best regards,
      hi
      1. +3
        14 September 2025 12: 44
        Good afternoon,
        One can
        The Pazyryk burial mounds are littered with horse skeletons, the most valuable treasure for a nomad.
        The burials of nomads clearly indicate accumulation, at least from an archaeological or any other point of view. Gold and silver objects in the royal burial mounds are there too. Literally everything speaks and even screams about the accumulation of luxury items and status items.
        The Hun burials of Noin ula are made according to the Han model and are filled with luxury items. And Chinese sources report that the Shanyu had a long-term headquarters surrounded by a rampart.
        In the article I see some kind of maximum primitivization of the nomadic way of life.
        But in reality, these are very complex systems with the incorporation of slave artisans, defectors from settled regions, and division of labor within a nomadic society. What is the metallurgical cluster in Altai worth?
        I'm not even talking about the fact that pure nomadism - year-round transhumance of livestock - is not the rule of life of nomadic societies.
  7. 0
    14 September 2025 12: 18
    Somehow everything looks simplified by the author. And then, why, when trying to examine the interaction of nomadic and sedentary cultures, does everyone focus on Asia, completely forgetting Africa, where, unlike Asia, these processes can be observed even in real time.
    1. +3
      14 September 2025 14: 24
      Good afternoon,
      because here I am writing specifically about China and the steppe.
      hi
      1. 0
        14 September 2025 14: 33
        Good day. So I misunderstood your passage.
        The article discusses whether some kind of symbiosis existed, or could exist, between an agricultural state and its nomadic neighbors, using the example of China

        I thought that you were trying to examine the issue of interaction between nomadic and sedentary cultures using the example of China and nomads. And you, according to your argumentation, were examining China locally.
        Logically, the interaction between the nomads of the Asian steppe and China should have some special character, different from the rest.
  8. 0
    14 September 2025 13: 53
    Quote: Andobor
    Yes, Tamerlane was a nomad, as was the main part of his army, but his base was in the city, in the oases, unlike the same early Mongols, for whom there was no city initially.


    Mgmh
    We type the phrase "early medieval settlements of Mongolia and the Baikal region" into the search engine.
  9. +2
    14 September 2025 16: 03
    In short, you will become time travelers, seize power in China - do not forget to periodically destroy the nomads, while there is no chaos in the country or war with a neighbor. Moreover, there is no need to chase them across the steppe, slaughter the cattle - they themselves will die out.
    1. +1
      15 September 2025 08: 44
      Why so harshly? It's better to hire them for service, since the cattle breeders have such a surplus of extra labor. The main thing is to pay them well and create conditions for career growth... otherwise it will turn out like with Genghis Khan, who went into the "armed opposition."
  10. 0
    3 November 2025 23: 19
    Quote: Author
    The Russian name "China" comes from the name "Khitan", which was used by various Turkic peoples to refer to the "Celestial Empire", and Tatars - for all tribes of the Mongolian ethnic group.

    It only remains to be clarified when the definition of "Tatars" appeared in Russian texts.
    And don't be so hard on yourself by confusing "Tatarstan" with Tartaria.
    Moreover, it confuses the pronunciation - "Great Shift (of vowels)"...
  11. 0
    4 November 2025 01: 07
    Quote: Author
    Horseman. Artist Zhao Mengfu (1254–1322)

    belay

    It's funny, a modern replica from the 18th century is being passed off as "Chinese antiquity".
    I immediately remember, according to the Chinese themselves - "In 213, Emperor Qin Shi Huangdi burns books
    In an attempt to eliminate the slightest possibility of criticism of his regime, in 213 BC he issued a decree ordering the burning of humanitarian literature stored in private collections."
    And since the 18th century, with a slight movement of the hand, “ancient manuscripts” have been multiplying like toadstools)))