Military Review

Towards a new partition of Georgia: neo-imperial Turkey comes for its part

67
The original text, which we will now discuss, here. Translation, retelling and very detailed, interested discussion. here. It is likely that the material will interest few people, but I'm interested. It's enough. So:


Lazy, a rather large people, akin to the modern Megrels and Svans, the indigenous people of present-day western Georgia, living mainly in Turkey, professing Islam and practically merged with the Turks, retaining, however, the memory of their roots, reminded of themselves.

The leaders of most public organizations (sites), in one way or another, representing this people, signed an open letter to the leadership of Georgia, stating that although some kind of relationship between Eastern Georgians (Kartvels) and Western Georgians (Laz, Megrel and Svans) is indisputable, nevertheless , talking about the Georgians as a single nation is impossible. For there are more differences between them than between the Germans, the Swedes and the English who are members of the German language family, or Bulgarians, Czechs and Russians who are part of the Slavic language family. Therefore, it is wrong to drive Megrel and Svan into the cartwheel, as well as to declare the Lazy "the foreign part of the Kartvelian ethnic group" The authors of the letter are not only protesting, but also demanding from Tbilisi permission for cultural autonomy for the Megrillians, the revival of their traditions, education in the schools in their native language, "national media" and so on.

On this subject, there was already a conversation almost three years ago ...

It was true, then, in the context of Ukraine, but the conversation was very thorough and interesting, and the Georgian opponents very harshly criticized me for raising this topic, arguing that there was no problem. Meanwhile, the problem, as it turned out, is there, and today the same Georgian bloggers are discussing it more than seriously.

In fact, the peoples, of course, are different. To make it clearer, I will try to explain with a "family" example. Lazy, Mingrelian and Svans, - Egre-Chansky family (in ancient times, collectively, "Kolkhus"), - like brothers, though from different mothers, such as Great Russians and Little Russians, but the Kartvels (in ancient times, generally, " ivers ") they are cousins ​​or even second cousins, sort of like the same Great Russians with Poles or Bulgarians. Awareness of some kind of relationship is definitely there, and political, by the way, also, because it happened to live in one household, but the differences never disappeared anywhere. And they left at the first opportunity, and kept the tobacco apart, and so on. In fact, it was only in the 19 century when the local intelligentsia, imitating the European, began to "nationally awaken" about the "united Georgian people" based on the cartwheel.

Why, ask, based on exactly the cartwheat? A very simple. Tiflis was the seat of the governor and the location of the district headquarters, that is, the capital and center of the entire spiritual life of Transcaucasia, and there, unlike Kutaisi (not to mention the outback), the backwater, the intelligentsia, which is equal to the example of the older ones, developed in full, considering it to be a cultural the sample, and all the rest as lagging, subject to the cultivation and adjustment of the standard. Neither megrels nor Svans were the secondary ones (no one had long been under the Turks) nobody declared, on the contrary, the door to politics and culture was wide open, and anywhere, but under one condition: shake the ashes from the feet provincialism ", to speak as it should and recognize the general vector:" one nation, one language, one, - God willing, - the state ". What was done by intellectuals from the provinces, and everything Megrelian (Svan), by default, left a “parochial, common folk, sub-ethnic”.

And on that stood. And, interestingly, the final “green light” and full support for the creation of a unified Georgian people, called “Kartvels”, was given by the Soviet government. Mingrelian intellectuals of the "second generation", who did not soar in the heights and also dreamed of "nationally awakening" the masses in the field, began to write textbooks of the Megrelian language, publish newspapers, stage plays, and then all this was abruptly stopped and weathered out.

The official statement read as follows: only subethnos, and official practice meant the crudest suppression, and the so-called. the "Mingrelian affair" at the end of the Stalin era, when people with big stars and merits went under the ax, only suspected of intending to "split the single Georgian national self-consciousness", an example. And after 1991, there’s nothing to talk about. Under Gamsakhurdia (megrel purest), and under Saakashvili (mother megrel), any inscriptions on this topic were considered seditious at the level of almost state treason provoked, naturally, by Russia. Although just Russia during the confrontation just this very promising card from its sleeve did not reach.

And trouble came, from where it was not expected. Manholes began to stir, and if someone says that without the knowledge or even the initiative of the Turkish authorities, I will allow myself to doubt. If earlier, during the time of developed ataturkism, which assumed that all Muslims of Turkey were automatically Turks, and those who were disagreeing who were scheming, they were quieter than a mouse, Turks out loud, in order to avoid complications, and now, when they rule, neo-Ottomanism allows kind and loyal Muslims (even Kurds) remember the roots, and that “national awakening” naturally began. Of course, in the most loyal forms, but with an exit and in political reasonings.

There was once a noble and powerful egro-Chansk people, and then disaster struck: evil distant relatives came to the enemy (Russian) convoy, crushed Megrelia and tortured, forcibly merging the unfortunate Megrels and Svans. And only lazam, who lived to the south, were lucky to hide under the reliable roof of mother-Turkey, where they now live happily and freely. And the most time, they say, is time to think about restoring the former unity, having helped the brothers in their liberation from the Georgian yoke (good, the Russians have already left), so that the brothers could self-determine how to live. Although a separate independent state, the union of Ankara and protected by it, at least, which is even better, is part of Turkey, along with Lazy, who do not need any independence, because Turkey is a country for all who live there, and not just for the Turks, and in general the most ideal ideal that you can imagine.

In principle, everything is correct. The doctrine of neo-Ottomanism, developed by Dr. Dautoglu, the current Minister of Foreign Affairs of Turkey, nobody hides her, on the contrary, it is publicly voiced, and moreover, it is far from official, but extremely popular among the masses, in one form or another, the return of "temporarily lost zones of traditional influence." According to the principle, a stranger (like Tbilisi) is not necessary, but one’s own sooner or later, but we will take it away. From the still Ukrainian Crimea to the northern coast of Syria and Iraqi Kirkuk. And not necessarily by force weapons, this is just the last. And what's more, not very desirable. Or even completely undesirable. Ideally, they themselves want and ask.

And Colchis, Megrelia, like Adzharia (the former pashalyk), like Abkhazia (the former vassal), from which side you look, it is the “lost zone of influence” that is, and besides, its financing goes residual principle. So, if you invest in the project "Megrelian Awakening" a due amount of money and deploy good-quality "people's diplomacy" with real information support, the apple will mature enough. Especially since during the reign of Mr. Saakashvili, who made the confrontation with Russia his modus vivendi, and before Ankara frankly frustrated, - as they say, at the suggestion of an extremely Turkophile-minded mother, who actively lobbied this matter, - Turkey’s position in western Georgia strengthened more than. So much so that Batumi, with its cherished pipe finish, according to some experts, is economically already so Turkish a city that its presence on some maps on the southern side of the Turkish-Georgian border practically reflects reality, and this is another part of the legacy left for now even the president of Georgia's successors.

Will the new authorities of Georgia find the answer to this difficult challenge?

Will they be able to pass between Scylla and Charybdis, without letting Mingrelian separatism flare up seriously, but at the same time without entering into open confrontation with Ankara?

Where, from whom and under what conditions should they seek support, if separatism becomes a fact, and Turkey goes all in?

Is Russia aware of the danger of turning the Black Sea into an "Ottoman lake" and is it aware of the possibility of a fan of opportunities that this situation opens up if it is not neglected?

All these questions will be answered by time, and there is no certainty that it’s too remote.
Author:
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67 comments
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  1. UFO
    UFO April 20 2013 06: 08
    +3
    Yeah, interesting twist. Will Georgia ask Russia soon to share the experience of the "Counter-Terrorist Operation"? It makes no sense to turn to NATO - there is Turkey, and it, in connection with the events in Syria, is now more important for the Amers than Georgia. belay
    1. vadimus
      vadimus April 20 2013 07: 21
      +8
      All Georgians who already have a scent in Russia are trading on the market ... The rest of Georgia was sold along the way ..... But Christians, it’s insulting .....
      1. donchepano
        donchepano April 20 2013 09: 45
        +4
        Quote: vadimus
        All Georgians who have a scent in Russia are already trading on the market ... The rest of Georgia was sold along the way ...

        In general, ordinary Georgians, especially rural ones from the provinces, are very good people ..
        But some of Tbilisi, Kutaisi especially traders are a nightmare. Hitrozh .. they’re specifically selling someone’s mother. But such a small number.
        Maybe the time will come when we will beat together a common enemy))
        1. Olegovi4
          Olegovi4 April 20 2013 09: 50
          +3
          Today, in favor of such traders. And not only in Georgia.
        2. StolzSS
          StolzSS April 21 2013 23: 54
          0
          I would prefer, as in ancient times, to cut out all these comrades so that others would not blather))) But now it is not so fashionable)))
      2. воронов
        воронов April 20 2013 15: 24
        +1
        Quote: vadimus
        But Christians, insulting .....

        We better deal with Muslims than with such Christians.
  2. wasjasibirjac
    wasjasibirjac April 20 2013 06: 23
    +1
    it would be better if they did not ask to share such experience. a soldier must have a spirit for war. and the "brave Georgians" lack one. therefore, if they need such experience, then most likely it will have to be passed on to our guys on the battlefield.
    1. Fox
      Fox April 20 2013 07: 05
      0
      Quote: wasjasibirjac
      among "brave Georgians"

      In my opinion, normal Georgians already live in Russia. I have a lot of friends, good guys, who work at the service station, who have a restaurant ... but most of all I like the way they raise their children. but they all live here for a long time, but those who came in the 2000s had a lot of problems: drugs, man purses, car thefts ...
    2. воронов
      воронов April 20 2013 15: 27
      0
      Quote: wasjasibirjac
      a soldier must have a spirit for war. and the "brave Georgians" lack one. therefore, if they need such experience, then most likely it will have to be passed on to our guys on the battlefield.

      The main thing for us is not to succumb to your stupid call and not to shake the Georgians
  3. Humpty
    Humpty April 20 2013 06: 31
    +2
    Do not exaggerate, the Black Sea will not become a Turkish lake. Why wouldn’t the Georgian leadership not return the Meskhetian Turks from the Krasnodar Territory to their historical homeland. After all, they are the same ethnic Georgians, as well as Adzharians and Svans.
    1. ultra
      ultra April 20 2013 10: 22
      +4
      Quote: Humpty
      Do not exaggerate, the Black Sea will not become a Turkish lake.
      Of course it will not! Russia will not allow it! hi
    2. stas
      stas April 20 2013 13: 47
      +4
      Humpty, the return of the Mskheta Turks to Georgia is an impossible idea. Even in the days of the USSR, when the Turks were driven out of Uzbekistan, they were not allowed into Georgia.

      Georgia has not yet forgotten how the Turks slaughtered and assimilated them. Yes, the Turks themselves will not go. It’s the same as moving the Georgians (who was born there) to Abkhazia or South Ossetia now.
      Georgia had a chance to remain a single republic; it was to become part of Russia. As in the 1784 year, they became part of Russia according to the St. George Treatise. But they exchanged this chance for the independence and venal love of America.
      And they can still return to this. But whether they are needed in Russia is a big question!
  4. fenix57
    fenix57 April 20 2013 07: 00
    +3
    Quote: UFO
    - Turkey is there, and it, in connection with the events in Syria, is now more important for Amers than Georgia

    For them (amers) it is convenient, which means that the disintegration of ANY state is beneficial, they will "pick up" the little things - it will cost less ... hi
  5. Komodo
    Komodo April 20 2013 07: 06
    18
    Goodbye Georgia. You were a good friend. I still remember your "Chacha" and your comedy films.
    But our roads diverge ... And we would be better off without you. Without your prison authorities, traders, adventurers. Learn Turkish. I hope you are lucky with Turkey
    more than with us. I ask you about one thing: "Take the Lenses and Dagos with you."
    These fools with knives already got it. Have arranged at our border a world show of transvestites ..
    And they dance their clang to those who pay more. Full bl..vo.
    They got it.
    1. k220150
      k220150 April 20 2013 10: 43
      0
      It is necessary to separate Georgia and Georgians. If you can still cooperate with the second, then with the first ... Oh! ...
      1. Maximus
        Maximus April 20 2013 12: 27
        +1
        Following the example of Amerov, divide and conquer!
    2. Maximus
      Maximus April 20 2013 12: 26
      -1
      It is necessary as in 1939, the USSR and Germany, divided Poland.
      Now we will divide Georgia, “we” already have Abkhazia with North Ossetia, we can also annex the North of Georgia, give the south to Armenia, the east to Azerbaijan, Adjara as a part of Turkey.
    3. воронов
      воронов April 20 2013 15: 48
      +1
      [quote = Komodo] Goodbye Georgia. You were a good friend. I still remember your "Chacha" and your comedy films. But our roads diverge ... And we will be better off without you. Without your prison bosses, traders, adventurers. Learn Turkish. I hope you are more lucky with Turkey than with us.
      Yes, most likely it will be better, I don’t know for them, but for us it’s for sure !!!
  6. kind
    kind April 20 2013 07: 22
    11
    Well, history repeats itself. Apparently the Georgians forgot how the Turks bent them, how they took tribute from them by virgins (because there was nothing else to take) (see V. Pikul's novel "Favorite") and how they asked for the Russian wing under the threat of extinction of their nation. If they learn from their mistakes, then who are they ?!
    1. Komodo
      Komodo April 20 2013 07: 33
      +5
      Yes, let them fall. Then we will gather those who remain,
      We will put it in the Red Book. And we will grow it in a terrarium.
      Get genetically modified Georgians.
      1. воронов
        воронов April 20 2013 15: 52
        +1
        Quote: Komodo
        Yes, let them fall. Then we will collect those who remain, put in the red book. And we will grow in a terrarium

        You don’t need to enter the terrarium, snakes will not accept them there, you can be a Sukhum monkey, it just needs to be replenished laughing
    2. SEM
      SEM April 20 2013 09: 33
      +6
      Fair remark !!! it is very relevant for now, and I want to add that Russia will have to sort everything out again, and these are new peacekeeping operations with all the ensuing consequences. Trust America, Georgia does not care what and how they will have, their main goal is Russia and they are trying to achieve it by any means .BUT after all, their "navel will be untied" and it will soon be all the prerequisites for this already ...
    3. Yarbay
      Yarbay April 20 2013 12: 16
      -5
      Quote: Good
      V. Pikul's novel "Favorite"

      basically wrote fairy tales!
      in Pikul’s books, historical events are distorted!
      1. Maximus
        Maximus April 20 2013 12: 30
        +1
        Well come up with a little and what? laughing
        We don’t know many historical events 100 years ago, and if we dive deeper, there historians write what
        1. Yarbay
          Yarbay April 20 2013 13: 02
          +2
          Quote: Maximus
          Well come up with a little and what?

          The fact of the matter is that a little, often frankly lie was written for the sake of someone!
          For example, about Bayazet’s defense, where Ismail Khan of Nakhchivansky wrote about cowardice and betrayal, which all historians were indignant at!
          Actually it was so !!

          On the morning of June 8, the Turks, under the command of the former commandant of the city of Kamal Ali, the Pasha launched a powerful attack on the citadel. Surrendering to panic, Lt. Col. Patsevich, with the consent of a number of other officers, including the commandant of the Shtokvich fortress, decided to surrender Bayazet. The fire was stopped and a white flag was hoisted above the walls of the fortress. Learning about this from the artillery officer, Lieutenant Nikolay Tomashevsky, who came to him, Colonel Ismail Khan, who at that moment was at the head of the seriously wounded son, the ensign of the Erivan horse-irregular regiment, Amanullah Khan Nakhichevan, ran out into the courtyard, where he saw crowded officers and officers on the fortress wall there is a pole with a developing white flag, near which stood Patsevich and several officers. Ismail Khan, in strong terms, reminded Patsevich, Stockwitch and other officers of the oath of allegiance to the Tsar and the Fatherland, ordered to tear down the white flag and open fire on the enemy, warning that anyone who does not obey the order will be immediately shot as a traitor. From that moment, essentially removing Colonel Patsevich, Colonel Ismail Khan Nakhichevan as senior in rank, on his own initiative, took command of the Bayazet garrison. Shooting resumed and one of the first was mortally wounded Patsevich, and he was wounded in the back. According to some reports, the shot was fired by one of the officers of the garrison. Joining the command of the garrison, Ismail Khan Nakhichevan organized the defense of the fortress and in difficult conditions, without water and provisions, held it until the approach of the main forces of the Russian army. When the next parliamentarian who arrived at the citadel and ran to the enemy after the outbreak of war declared Ismail Khan that if the garrison did not capitulate, he would be outweighed, Ismail Khan replied that the parliament would be hanged first, as a traitor, and this order was immediately executed.

          After lifting the blockade from the fortress, of all its defenders, Colonel Ismail Khan Nakhichevan was awarded the highest awards. By the highest order of December 19, 1877, “for military distinctions,” he was awarded the rank of Major General, and on December 31, 1877, “for the exemplary courage and discretion shown during the blockade of Bayezet in June 1877,” he was awarded the Order of St. Great Martyr and Victorious George IV degree. "
          1. Maximus
            Maximus April 20 2013 13: 12
            +2
            Based on this, the works of Pikul should be attributed to fiction, not historical.
            1. Yarbay
              Yarbay April 20 2013 13: 24
              +3
              Quote: Maximus
              Based on this, the works of Pikul should be attributed to fiction, not historical.

              so am I about it!
              Only even in fiction there aren’t so many lies and insults!
      2. воронов
        воронов April 20 2013 15: 54
        +1
        Quote: Yarbay
        in Pikul’s books, historical events are distorted!

        But it’s interesting to read
        1. Yarbay
          Yarbay April 20 2013 16: 53
          +1
          Quote: voronov
          But it’s interesting to read

          I also read in childhood!
    4. воронов
      воронов April 20 2013 15: 49
      +1
      Quote: Good
      Georgians forgot how the Turks bent them

      They wanted to remember the "pleasant" laughing
      1. Garrin
        Garrin April 20 2013 15: 52
        0
        Quote: voronov
        They wanted to remember the "pleasant" laughing

        What do you do? Mentality request
      2. Artyom
        Artyom April 21 2013 23: 39
        0
        the Persians organized an extreme massacre there, after which they asked to Russia recourse
    5. ziqzaq
      ziqzaq April 20 2013 21: 05
      0
      Quote: Good
      The Russian wing is threatened with the disappearance of its nation.

      That's for sure, at the time of inclusion in Russia there were a little more than 300 thousand .....
  7. svp67
    svp67 April 20 2013 07: 45
    +1
    Will the new authorities of Georgia find the answer to this difficult challenge?

    Time will tell. But, oh, how I would like the new authorities to have enough wisdom. Although there are BIG doubts. Ukraine and Georgia are "twin sisters" in this. But this is another proof that one should have "one's own head" on one's shoulders, and not look for it overseas ...
    1. Egoza
      Egoza April 20 2013 08: 56
      +2
      Quote: svp67
      Ukraine and Georgia in this "twin sisters"

      That's just the point. First, the Turks in Georgia will submit an application, then the "brothers-Tatars" on the Crimean peninsula, you need to look well at the economy in the Black Sea!
      1. svp67
        svp67 April 20 2013 09: 36
        +2
        Quote: Egoza
        That's just the point. First, the Turks in Georgia will submit an application, then the "brothers-Tatars" on the Crimean peninsula, you need to look well at the economy in the Black Sea!

        Turks will show only if Georgia changes course from pro-American to pro-Russian. This is obvious.
        1. bask
          bask April 20 2013 09: 47
          +4
          Quote: svp67
          lessons will be presented only if Georgia changes course from pro-American to pro-Russian.

          Present and SUSH no one will not ask ,,, Pan-Turkism ,, Turkish ideology.
          it is more profitable for amers to have Georgia under a protectorate, Turks. The NATO country, however, and with Israel in great friendship and mutual love ...
          1. Kaa
            Kaa April 20 2013 11: 33
            +6
            Quote: bask
            amer profitable to have Georgia under the protectorate, the Turk

            Therefore, Abkhazia was separated and fed, despite all their shortcomings. Not because of the sanatoriums-resorts, but for a quick reaction to the unexpected actions of the Turkey-Georgia tandem. How many troops will there be from Poti to Batumi, in which case? And the Iskander?
            1. wax
              wax April 20 2013 13: 24
              +3
              Namutil EBN, a hundred years to understand. And everywhere there is blood. And foams are filmed overseas.
      2. Maximus
        Maximus April 20 2013 12: 33
        0
        Tatars in Crimea are few in number, so it’s too early to exhibit rights ...
  8. CCA
    CCA April 20 2013 08: 16
    0
    Fate, however ... Probably what should be, that cannot be avoided ... The Turks should have led the Georgians away, they will have to hike and then leave and leave the territory for us ... for the next revival of new Georgians ...
  9. pinecone
    pinecone April 20 2013 08: 21
    +3
    Good article. By the way, Turkey itself is actively promoting the topic of "Turkish heritage" in Adjara. At the same time, large funds are allocated for the restoration of old and construction of new mosques in Bosnia, Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, Kosovo, Greece, as well as on the territory of Crimea.
    Dautoglu is a cunning and impudent fox. When at a press conference he was asked about Turkey’s participation in the Syrian events, he replied that if he had not been a diplomat, he would have told the truth, and since he is the foreign minister, he will not speak.
  10. UFO
    UFO April 20 2013 08: 33
    +3
    Quote: Komodo
    And we will be better off without you. Without your prison authorities, traders, adventurers. Learn Turkish. I hope you are lucky with Turkey

    I agree to all 100%. You +++
  11. dc120mm
    dc120mm April 20 2013 10: 27
    12
    Lazi are related to the people of the Mingrelians, but the Ani are already almost Turks and there are almost no dreams of it, and not one Laz does not live here.
    Quote: UFO
    In general, ordinary Georgians, especially rural ones from the provinces, are very good people ..
    But some of Tbilisi, Kutaisi especially traders are a nightmare. Hitrozh .. they’re specifically selling someone’s mother. But such a small number.
    Right smile
    Quote: UFO
    Without your prison authorities, traders, adventurers.
    Zai "" whether they are already "authorities", that's why they were whined (although Misha did one thing) and they were sucked in. Here they dishonor us both in Europe and in Russia.

    Not one Georgians do not like Turks, but Russians are loved not looking at all.
    1. Maximus
      Maximus April 20 2013 13: 14
      -6
      Did you study at a Russian school?
      1. dc120mm
        dc120mm April 20 2013 13: 17
        +4
        No, what? :)
        1. Maximus
          Maximus April 20 2013 13: 26
          0
          There are a lot of errors in your text ...
          Well, and so in general it’s not bad based on the fact that you studied at a national school.
      2. воронов
        воронов April 20 2013 16: 01
        +1
        Quote: Maximus
        Did you study at a Russian school?

        He already graduated from Turkish laughing
    2. Yarbay
      Yarbay April 20 2013 14: 42
      -1
      Quote: dc120mm
      Not one Georgians do not like Turks, but Russians are loved not looking at all.

      Right not one does not like the Turks ??
      And everyone loves Russian?))))
      is it from great love ???))

      You have a very peculiar love))))

      1. воронов
        воронов April 20 2013 16: 07
        +2
        Quote: Yarbay
        is it from great love ???)) You have a very peculiar love

        Of course, out of great love, they called the pilot to visit them, but he did not want to, so he had to ... and then, it was not the Georgians who shot down, but the Ukrainian (again, "fraternal") crew of the air defense missile system, the Georgians have for this no brains, no skill
        1. Yarbay
          Yarbay April 20 2013 16: 55
          -2
          Quote: voronov
          ... and then, it was not the Georgians who shot down, but the Ukrainian (again, "fraternal") crew of the air defense missile system, the Georgians have neither the brains nor the skill to do this

          I do not agree with this!
          it's talk, no facts!
          1. Anti
            Anti April 20 2013 17: 21
            +1
            Quote: Yarbay
            Quote: voronov
            ... and then, it was not the Georgians who shot down, but the Ukrainian (again, "fraternal") crew of the air defense missile system, the Georgians have neither the brains nor the skill to do this

            I do not agree with this!
            it's talk, no facts!


            The Poles were also noted, in November 2008, Moscow put forward diplomatic claims to Warsaw due to the delivery to Georgia in 2007 of about 30 Polish portable anti-aircraft missile systems "Thunder E2" and 100 missiles to them. I slammed the minus, for foul language in the video wink
            1. Yarbay
              Yarbay April 20 2013 17: 30
              0
              Quote: Anti

              The Poles also noted, in November 2008, Moscow put forward diplomatic claims to Warsaw due to the delivery to Georgia in 2007 of about 30 Polish Thunder E2 man-portable air defense systems and 100 missiles to them

              but this does not mean that the Poles fired from these complexes !!
              Quote: Anti
              I slammed the minus, for foul language in the video

              Have you ever grown out of the pros and cons?))))
              1. Anti
                Anti April 20 2013 17: 37
                +2
                Quote: Yarbay
                but this does not mean that the Poles fired from these complexes !!


                American, Ukrainian, Turkish and Czech mercenaries fought on the side of the Georgian army, so who knows who they are?

                Have you ever grown out of the pros and cons?))))


                and you?)))
                1. Yarbay
                  Yarbay April 20 2013 17: 38
                  0
                  Quote: Anti
                  American, Ukrainian, Turkish and Czech mercenaries fought on the side of the Georgian army, so who knows who they are?

                  Do not believe fairy tales and do not tell them yourself !!
                  1. Anti
                    Anti April 20 2013 17: 46
                    0
                    Quote: Yarbay
                    Do not believe fairy tales and do not tell them yourself !!


                    and what version of your fairy tales? Sergeant Mukutadze shot down 3 Russian bombers ?? wassat
                    1. Yarbay
                      Yarbay April 20 2013 17: 51
                      0
                      Quote: Anti
                      and what version of your fairy tales? Sergeant Mukutadze shot down 3 Russian bombers ??

                      Why not???
                      and the fact that you treat Georgians badly does not mean that this is impossible !!
                      But there are no facts confirming your statement and never was!
                      1. Anti
                        Anti April 20 2013 18: 03
                        0
                        Quote: Yarbay
                        and the fact that you treat Georgians badly does not mean that this is impossible !!


                        I belong to the Georgians, as befits, not all rowing under one comb. Although I understand Saakashvili, his ideological move with Mukutadze, after such an escape from the battlefield, Georgia needed a hero, like that.
                      2. Yarbay
                        Yarbay April 20 2013 18: 28
                        0
                        Quote: Anti
                        his ideological move with Mukutadze, after such an escape from the battlefield, Georgia needed a hero, like that.

                        There are no heroes to invent, they are, dozens of people served with Muktadze!
                      3. Anti
                        Anti April 20 2013 18: 38
                        0
                        Quote: Yarbay
                        dozens of people served with Muktadze!

                        also got a quad, well, and some kind of thread, for maintaining this version. The main thing is puri, puri, well, involvement in not perfect heroism))) they drove them to him ??? wassat
                      4. Yarbay
                        Yarbay April 21 2013 16: 39
                        -2
                        [quote = Anti] also got a quad, well, and some kind of thread, for maintaining this version. The main thing is puri, puri, well, involvement in not perfect heroism))) they drove them to him ???
                        that's why I tell you, less fantasy)))) read less fairy tales))))
                        If you do this, it does not mean that everyone does it)))
                      5. Anti
                        Anti April 21 2013 18: 37
                        0
                        Quote: Yarbay
                        that's why I tell you, less fantasy)))) read less fairy tales))))
                        If you do this, it does not mean that everyone does it)))


                        Unsurpassed dreamer "Baron" Munchausen, while you are on this resource. lol
                        Yes, they don’t do it in our country, but here you have something else ...
  12. Kaa
    Kaa April 20 2013 18: 05
    +1
    Quote: Yarbay
    it's talk, no facts!

    Dear, will you believe the General Prosecutor's Office of Ukraine from the time of the "orange" Yushchenko? It made no sense for him to "expose himself ..." The General Prosecutor's Office of Ukraine established that Ukrainian specialists were servicing the air defense systems during the Georgian-South Ossetian conflict in August 2008.

    In the process of checking, the GPU found a number of gross violations, which were previously announced by the head of the temporary investigative commission of the Verkhovna Rada, Valeriy Konovalyuk. Thus, Ukraine not only sold to Georgia the Buk-M1 air defense system at a reduced price, but also sent there a group of civilian specialists from the city of Balakleya, Kharkov region, who serviced these complexes, with which the Georgians fired on Russian military aircraft. Specialists who were in Georgia from 5 to 13 August last year, that is, before, during, after and after the armed conflict with South Ossetia, wrote their own explanations about their stay in Georgia, reports IA "Rosbalt". Participation in hostilities, these persons "deny, but do not deny that the equipment was serviced".http: //forum.kursknet.ru/viewtopic.php? f = 285 & t = 12677
    1. Yarbay
      Yarbay April 20 2013 18: 12
      +1
      Quote: Kaa
      sent there a group of civilian specialists from the city of Balakleya, Kharkov region, who serviced these complexes, with the help of which Georgians fired on Russian combat aircraft.

      You understand that these are different things !!
      There are no facts that the Ukrainians participated and fired!
      1. Kaa
        Kaa April 20 2013 18: 24
        0
        Quote: Yarbay
        There are no facts that the Ukrainians participated and fired!
        Please tell me why the personnel, for example, BAO, the technicians there, gunsmiths, camouflagers, without firing for the war even once, are considered not just participants in the Great Patriotic War, but participants in the hostilities? Not looking for analogies?
        1. The cat
          The cat April 20 2013 18: 31
          0
          Quote: Kaa
          Quote: Yarbay
          There are no facts that the Ukrainians participated and fired!
          Please tell me why the personnel, for example, BAO, the technicians there, gunsmiths, camouflagers, without firing for the war even once, are considered not just participants in the Great Patriotic War, but participants in the hostilities? Not looking for analogies?

          Maybe because they are military, not civilians?
        2. Yarbay
          Yarbay April 20 2013 18: 33
          0
          Quote: Kaa
          without firing a war once, are considered not just participants in the Great Patriotic War, but participants in the hostilities? Not looking for analogies?

          Not looking!
          Among my relatives there is a war veteran who, a man of a very peaceful profession, helped to erect fortifications on the front line!
          it’s done different things, but that means that he shot instead of soldiers !!
          We are talking about this!
          1. Kaa
            Kaa April 20 2013 19: 47
            0
            Quote: Yarbay
            We are talking about this!

            Respected Yarbay, well, you are frankly kidding. If you pressed the "start" button, it means you fought, if not, you didn’t fight. It’s not impressive for you, I didn’t expect such simplification, knowing you for several months.
            Quote: Elgato
            Maybe because they are military, not civilians?
            Do you seriously think that an air defense complex can serve a "civilian" one? Maybe at least a retiree? I am stopping the discussion, because it already smells like a flood, if not worse. hi
            1. Yarbay
              Yarbay April 20 2013 21: 13
              0
              Quote: Kaa
              Dear Yarbay, well, you are frankly kidding. If you pressed the "start" button, it means you fought, if not, you didn’t fight. It’s not impressive for you, I didn’t expect such simplification, knowing you for several months.

              Dear, we were talking about something else with my opponent, who claimed that everyone except Georgians clicked on the * start * !!
              I am very sorry that your attitude towards me has changed!
              I dare to assure you that I respected you before and respect you now, and my attitude towards you does not depend on changing your attitude towards me!
              As for air defense systems, I’m probably not a specialist, I can talk about a machine gun, about a fight in the mountains!
              Yours!
  • воронов
    воронов April 20 2013 16: 00
    +1
    Quote: dc120mm
    but they love Russians without looking at everything.

    Especially your "love" manifested itself in August 2008. laughing
  • iulai
    iulai April 20 2013 21: 34
    0
    just in case learn Turkish.
    1. Yarbay
      Yarbay April 20 2013 21: 38
      +1
      Quote: iulai
      just in case learn Turkish.

      If you are me, then I know 5 languages, including Turkish))))
      1. Anti
        Anti April 23 2013 21: 07
        0
        Quote: Yarbay
        I know 5 languages, including Turkish))))


        Turkish and Azerbaijani are not the same.
  • Radoslav
    Radoslav April 20 2013 10: 41
    +3
    And again the Georgians Kartvelians will crawl on their knees to Mother Russia and in tears and snot will ask them, the unfortunate Georgians, unworthy dogs born of the mother of a prostitute, to save Russia from the Turkish yoke, and Russia, not much angry with frowning eyebrows, will forgive the unreasonable and go to rescue the Georgians from the Turks, and again Russian soldiers and officers will die saving the Georgians from destruction and, of course, as has always been the case in history, they will save and liberate them and let this people develop and multiply in peace "and God's grace will descend on Georgia and it will bloom again" ... And when Georgia again begins to threaten nothing, when they again reproduce in abundance, which will give them the opportunity to feel again their exclusivity, chosenness, the Georgians will say that Russia is their age-old enemy, that Russia raped them both politically and physically, and they want to be free again, they will find some kind of ally, like the Americans, will demand independence and noble Russia, having safely forgotten, by that time, its dead soldiers and officers who defended the Georgians, with drunken emotion like Yeltsin's, will grant Georgia independence. And again the circle of history will be closed.
    1. воронов
      воронов April 20 2013 16: 09
      0
      Actually, that's right
  • washi
    washi April 20 2013 11: 06
    +1
    Terribly and horribly at the same time. Turkey claims to Georgia. To Armenia are Turkey and Iran. To Azerbaijan - Iran. To Crimea - Turkey. Theoretically, they are right. There were agreements with the Republic of Ingushetia, the USSR, i.e. with the Russian Federation, as it was she who assumed the obligations of both the USSR and the Republic of Ingushetia (payment of royal debts). If these territories are not the territory of the Russian Federation (as legal successors), then they are draws. Those. Turkey and Iran can restore their territorial integrity.
    1. Thunderbolt
      Thunderbolt April 20 2013 16: 41
      0
      Such is the destiny of all small states; they cannot be neutral by definition.
  • tupolev-95
    tupolev-95 April 20 2013 11: 13
    +6
    If you face the truth, then all the former Soviet republics lived well only as part of the Union, and after its collapse, nobody became truly independent and self-sufficient. So eat, gentlemen, democracy with full spoons, eat.
    1. pav-pon1972
      pav-pon1972 April 20 2013 12: 43
      +1
      I agree, but now the Customs Union has formed, based mainly on economic principles, in conjunction with political ones. I think that the position of Georgia in 2 years will be more logical and there is a possibility of its entry into the customs union in the future. Maybe I'm wrong? many Georgians live in Russia and serve a lot in the army of the Russian Federation, for example, in Kantemirovka 5 Georgian officers and warrant officers continue to serve, despite the reduction, moreover, sensible and normal people.
      1. pav-pon1972
        pav-pon1972 April 20 2013 21: 15
        +2
        Just today (News of News 24 and WORLD 24), representatives of Kazakhstan, Belarus and Russia gathered and considered about changes in the rules of the customs union, to change common borders in the article, which would be easier for Tajikistan and Armenia to enter. New Zealand and Malaysia submitted applications to the customs union ...
  • lobik
    lobik April 20 2013 12: 36
    -2
    Yes, ordinary people don’t want to join unions. Everyone in the referenda votes against. Yes, and what kind of union if there is no master.
    1. wax
      wax April 20 2013 13: 29
      0
      There was a "Master", and everyone wanted it, even if they didn't want it. The "Boss" left 60 years ago and his hat did not fit anyone. And now everyone doesn't want to, even if they want to.
  • knn54
    knn54 April 20 2013 14: 23
    +1
    "In the post-Soviet space, this is the first successful case of suppressing separatism - this is a significant day in the history of Georgia and the beginning of a new era in the life of the country," Saakashvili said.
    The departure of Aslan Abashidze was preceded by negotiations between the head of Adzharia and the Secretary of the Security Council of the Russian Federation Igor Ivanov. Yes, they surrendered such a person. Under Abashidze, Abkhazia was a "paradise" in comparison with the rest of Georgia - a lot of friends from those parts. Until May 2004, when Abashidze ruled Adzharia, the presence of Turkish capital was minimal. The head of Adzharia knew what the Turkish expansion for his homeland would turn out to be. But after his overthrow, the President of Georgia opened Adjara to Turkey and, above all, Batumi. 75% of investments made in Adjara over the past five years are in Turkish business. Turkey seized Adjara economically. A mosque was built in Batumi, although the locals were against ...
    PS The Turks (Atatürk) gave the Batum of the RSFSR, not Georgia, under the Kars Treaty.
    08.08.08 Turkey put its armed forces on alert. If Russian troops approached the Georgian-Turkish border at a distance of 100 kilometers, the army was ready to invade Georgian territory in order to create a buffer zone. At the same time, the Turkish side was guided not by the Kars Treaty, but by NATO membership.
    PPS If Armenia ratifies the Protocols on the normalization of Armenian-Turkish relations, "kerdyk" will not only be for it, but for the entire Transcaucasian-Turks (NATO MEMBERS), it is unlikely that something will stop it.
    1. Yarbay
      Yarbay April 20 2013 14: 31
      0
      Quote: knn54
      .Till May 2004

      I was in Batumi until 2004!
      Don’t say what you don’t know !!
      Banditry, corruption, lack of medicine !!
      On fans turned off the light!
      The sidewalks are strewn with syringes!
      Was it your paradise?
      Quote: knn54
      PPS If Armenia ratifies the Protocols on the normalization of Armenian-Turkish relations, "kerdyk" will not only be for it, but for the entire Transcaucasian-Turks (NATO MEMBERS), it is unlikely that something will stop it.

      regular nonsense !!
      Russia itself, together with the USA, lobbied for the signing of the treaty !!
      everyone remembers how Lavrov shouted at a nalbandyan when he decided to play a little trick!
      The main question is whether Turkey ratifies ??
      here, it is unlikely that Azerbaijan has succeeded so that it is not ratified then, and until it resolves its problems, it will not let Turkey do it!
      1. washi
        washi April 20 2013 15: 57
        0
        Sorry, but sometimes I don’t believe you. I understand you perfectly, but from time to time, notes of nationalism slip through you.
        Why did you and the Russian Ares kill? Bastards.
        Sorry emotions
        1. Yarbay
          Yarbay April 20 2013 17: 00
          +1
          Quote: Vasya
          Sorry, but sometimes I don’t believe you. I understand you perfectly, but from time to time, notes of nationalism slip through you.


          In what?
          Why don’t you believe?
          I love my country more than myself and have never hidden it !!
          Quote: Vasya
          Why did you and the Russian Ares kill? Bastards.

          Why did you kill us, not us ??Scum!
          Sorry for the emotions!
      2. knn54
        knn54 April 20 2013 21: 28
        0
        Alibek. I have two friends from Batumi, one has a bakery, the other has a service station. Every year they visit their homeland and have something to compare. Why should they lie? And Batumi, as a large port city, can also have a corresponding "-". This can be seen in our Kherson.
        By the way, in Baku. One acquaintance from Ganja (after the KhPI stayed in Kharkov) often flew to relatives in Baku and told how the triple control went: cops, border guards and customs. And to each give. Last instance (with the permission of the eldest) gave hryvnias ... Or is he lying too? True, it was a few years ago, a long time did not communicate.
        1. Yarbay
          Yarbay April 20 2013 21: 34
          +1
          Quote: knn54
          By the way, in Baku. One acquaintance from Ganja (after the KhPI stayed in Kharkov) often flew to relatives in Baku and told how the triple control went: cops, border guards and customs. And to each give. Last instance (with the permission of the eldest) gave hryvnias ... Or is he lying too? True, it was a few years ago, a long time did not communicate.
          Darling, I don’t know why they lie, please come and see for yourself!
          A few years ago, the concept of extensible and really took everything from everyone in the 90s!
          As for Batumi, I saw it myself!
          In general, in Georgia, Saakashvili’s greatest merit was that he was able to rid his country of banditry and that the police worked as expected and had a human face!
  • krez-74
    krez-74 April 20 2013 15: 03
    0
    The Turks have far-reaching plans ... The whole Caucasus, Tatarstan, Crimea, and the Turkic-speaking countries of Asia should enter into Great Turan over time ... So, Georgia is only a stage.
    Another question is what will happen to Turkey itself? My opinion, it will fall apart!
    1. Maximus
      Maximus April 20 2013 15: 14
      +1
      Great Turan, Turkish utopian idea.
      It seems to me that they would have to keep their own east in the future, since the Kurds have already moved a little: in the north of Iraq, almost independent Kurdistan, in Syria, Kurdish autonomy, most likely in Iran, something similar will happen, and then Turkish Kurdistan will rise.
    2. воронов
      воронов April 20 2013 19: 07
      0
      [quote = krez-74] The Turks have far-reaching plans ... The whole Caucasus, Tatarstan, Crimea, and the Turkic-speaking countries of Asia should enter into Great Turan over time ...
      There will never be such a thing, Turkey is not a nuclear power and the most powerful state on the planet, no one will allow it like that, and first of all Russia, and it is not needed, with the fall of the Ottoman Empire, its time has passed, it is the fruit of your sick imagination
  • Sergey S.
    Sergey S. April 20 2013 17: 06
    0
    I can’t understand what the Transcaucasian peoples thought in 1991.
    They are not the Baltic states, not Central Asia, they could figure out how this will end.
    It's not over yet, but everyone has already visited the wars.
    And they pulled us there, pulled us in and pulled us on.
    Of course, in the name of the memory of the ancestors, the bones laid down for Georgia, Armenia, Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro, Greece, generally for the Slavs, generally for Orthodox and not quite Orthodox Christians, in general for justice ...
    Russia, or rather, Russians, and now can not help but respond to regular calls for help.

    Specifically, Georgians must understand that Russia, by virtue of the lessons of its own history, helps those who face an unjust mortal threat.

    High words, I didn’t even think that they would turn out so high, but this is Russian self-awareness.
    By the way, I treat Georgians as fraternal people.
    I am very sorry for the 2008 war, but if Russia had not stood up for the Ossetians then, it would have been even harder now.

    I consider the biggest misfortune of life that in 1999 we did not fight with NATO in Serbia.
    1. RUS-36
      RUS-36 8 May 2013 15: 51
      0
      No comments, just +
  • dc120mm
    dc120mm April 20 2013 19: 54
    +2
    Here I will not argue, but: when a plane bombes your country, its nada is shot down.

    And if you believe deep down that Georgia attacked Russia No. tagda. . . I have no words.

    I myself fought 2008, but I don’t have any aggression and hate Russia and Russians, but for some reason you’re eating, you’ve played a warrior, it should be the other way around.
    1. Yarbay
      Yarbay April 20 2013 21: 18
      0
      Quote: dc120mm
      Here I will not argue, but: when a plane bombes your country, its nada is shot down.

      And if you believe deep down that Georgia attacked Russia tagda. . . I have no words.

      I myself fought 2008, but I don’t have any aggression and hate Russia and Russians, but for some reason you’re eating, you’ve played a warrior, it should be the other way around.

      You just have to be honest!
      I do not like the politician of Russia, but I never attribute this to Russians as a nation !!
      I do not respect those who do not respect themselves !!
      And the Russians are being cunning here saying that they defended Ossetians and were crazy about them!)))
      Yes, they don’t care about Ossetians, they are the same black .. like all other Caucasians, they just had to punish Georgia, they needed a reason and they used it !!
      1. Marek Rozny
        Marek Rozny April 21 2013 12: 59
        0
        Russia "fueled" separatism in Georgia since the time of EBN. And when Putin came, the situation generally escalated. The Georgians defended the integrity of their state, just as the Russians fought in Chechnya for their "constitutional order." The only difference is that Georgia did not bring its "peacekeepers" into the territory of the Russian Federation, while Russia brought its military into the territory of Georgia, effectively occupying South Ossetia. Passports with Russian citizenship were issued to Ossetians from trucks, their names were entered into passports with a ballpoint pen - as a result, almost all South Ossetians became "suddenly" Russian citizens. How would the Russians react to the fact if someone handed out passports in this way in the national borders of the Russian Federation?
        Russia pursued a clumsy, impudent policy in Georgia and still does not want to talk about its fault, which led to the current conflict between the two countries. Yes, there were IDIs in the Georgian leadership, but the main political stupidities were committed by the Russian authorities.
        Georgians did not invade the territory of Russia. This is the Russian military - in Georgia.
        Kazakhstan did not recognize the independence of Chechnya, did not recognize the independence of Kosovo, and we do not recognize the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Politics should avoid double standards, then there will be no annoyance. Russia accuses the West of double standards, but it is also pursuing such a policy. We must always defend our own interests, but not so clumsy and duplicitous.
        I hope that sooner or later Georgia and Russia will again become reliable friends and partners. In the meantime, Georgians have insult in their heads, and Russians have propaganda in their heads.
        1. RUS-36
          RUS-36 8 May 2013 15: 46
          0
          And what Ossetians did not want to have a Russian passport ??? For happiness, many took a passport, he was there himself and people said that the passport makes it possible to live and work in Russia, and the Georgian passport does not give them ANYTHING ...
      2. RUS-36
        RUS-36 8 May 2013 15: 43
        0
        That's it, a REASON was needed and the occasion was, and some argue that there was no reason, Russia came up with a type of it ...
    2. RUS-36
      RUS-36 8 May 2013 15: 40
      0
      An interesting version of the "peaceful Georgian" about the events of 2008. I would not be surprised if you say that the Peacekeepers attacked the regular units of the Georgian army first ...

      Simple Georgians for the most part, brotherly people for me, BUT, Wand the killing of Peacekeeperskind to Georgians (fought-fired) I will not be at all NEVER and in the first case I recall .....
  • Sergey S.
    Sergey S. April 20 2013 21: 33
    +1
    Quote: Yarbay

    And the Russians are being cunning here saying that they defended Ossetians and were crazy about them!)))
    Yes, they don’t care about Ossetians, they are the same black .. like all other Caucasians, they just had to punish Georgia, they needed a reason and they used it !!


    Not every Caucasian will be called black ...
    But, even if the Ossetians do not care for someone, mind you, this is your terminology, then our peacekeepers who find themselves in the war, even for those who do not care for the Ossetians, certainly do not care.
    1. Yarbay
      Yarbay April 20 2013 22: 26
      +1
      Quote: Sergey S.
      But, even if the Ossetians do not care for someone, mind you, this is your terminology, then our peacekeepers who find themselves in the war, even for those who do not care for the Ossetians, certainly do not care.

      Yes, where does the terminology?)))
      For a simple Russian layman, there is no difference between an Abkhaz, Ossetian, Armenian, or Dagestan !!
      As for the peacekeepers that they were ordered from Moscow, they did it!
      And Russia, before these events, announced to the whole world that in retaliation for recognizing Kosovo, it recognizes South Ossetia and Abkhazia and this is a fact!
      1. RUS-36
        RUS-36 8 May 2013 15: 48
        0
        Do not tell me, in my circle of friends, a clear line and hundreds of acquaintances clearly understand the difference between these peoples ...
  • Sergey S.
    Sergey S. April 21 2013 00: 21
    +3
    Quote: Yarbay

    For a simple Russian layman, there is no difference between an Abkhaz, Ossetian, Armenian, or Dagestan !!
    As for the peacekeepers that they were ordered from Moscow, they did it!
    And Russia, before these events, announced to the whole world that in retaliation for recognizing Kosovo, it recognizes South Ossetia and Abkhazia and this is a fact!

    Wrong.
    We already distinguish Ossetians, Armenians, Azerbaijanis, and Tajiks with Uzbeks. Not always enthusiastic about this.
    Depending on who we push, we are judged.
    Some of them are on the market, some are laborers in the Housing Office, and some are university comrades.
    And at the festive table we drink Caucasian toasts for Russia, which has become their second homeland.
    Moreover, next to normal people, there are nationalists, fools, fans, and stupid inhabitants ...