MZ-217 "Smolka", or Where the Russian 60-mm Mortar Was Lost

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MZ-217 "Smolka", or Where the Russian 60-mm Mortar Was Lost


82mm vs 60mm


The small group has become the gold standard of offensive tactics in the Russian Army. Only pairs and threes of fighters are able to approach the enemy's front line relatively unnoticed. Also, in small groups, fighters infiltrate the rear of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, group together for several days or even weeks, and then attack in the most unexpected place. Assault actions are supported mainly by automatic grenade launchers, ATGM crews, heavy machine guns, "anti-material" rifles, drones of various types and mortars.



The latter are in the most disadvantageous position. Firstly, the "exit" of an 82-mm mine is clearly audible, and the enemy has time to take certain measures. In fairness, this is critically important for the target of the attack - the explosion of a mine is comparable in effect to the simultaneous detonation of five or six F-1 hand grenades. Secondly, the 82-mm "Tray" is a very heavy tool. If it is used stationary, it can still be camouflaged in some way. Shovels, camouflage nets, branches, etc. are used. And what should a three-man crew do when it is brought closer before the next assault?

As has been mentioned many times, in the area of ​​enemy FPV drones, mobility is especially valuable. weapons. If detected, the operator must grab it in his arms and retreat to cover as quickly as possible. This was planned in advance, it should be noted. But how can this be done with the "Tray", if its loaded weight is more than 70 kilograms? And this is without ammunition. At the same time, the maximum range does not exceed 4000 meters, and the effective range is less than 3 km.

If we simulate assault actions, then the "Tray" crew should approach the very edge of the gray zone, or even enter it. That is, it is seen by drones, the remaining crews artillery reconnaissance of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, and mortar crews are unable to quickly change their work location. The mortar has to be placed on foot and not in one go. And not in two. An attentive drone operator simply cannot help but notice the fuss under his nose. In the old days, by the way, a mortar crew consisted of five people at once. The heroes had to carry a loaded mortar, but also 6-10 large-sized ammunition.


LMP-2017 60mm caliber

The irony of fate is interesting. At the very beginning of the special operation, many complained about the lack of self-propelled mortars in the Russian Army. Towed units were available - 82-mm were installed on UAZs, and 120-mm on Urals. This is good, but did not allow timely hiding from counter-battery work of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. While they rolled the gun and jumped into the back, the enemy had time to sight in. Times have changed, and now even an armored automated mortar such as the MZ-204 Gorets (120-mm) or 82-mm 2S41 Drok is impractical to use at the front. Machines are detected from the air very quickly, and an instantly organized hunt for them leaves no chance of survival. Therefore, the battlefield again remained in the hands of foot troops with all the ensuing consequences - very difficult and noticeable for the enemy.


82mm "Gall" on the SVO

An attentive reader will probably remember the silent mortar "Gall". It is small-sized and has a caliber of 82 mm. It seems to have been developed to counter the Polish 60 mm mortar LMP-2017, which the enemy is actively using. The machine turned out to be solid - the cutoff of powder gases reduces the sound of the "exit", and the relatively small weight (13 kg) increases the mobility of the group. Where the LMP-2017 requires 5-6 grenades to confidently hit a target, the "Gall" will need a couple of its 82 mm fragmentation mines. The "Gall" is not without its specific drawbacks. The mine is unique, and the silent mortar cannot work with standard ammunition from the "Podnos". That is probably why it is modestly distributed in the active army. The lack of unmasking signs was not in vain - the firing range of the "Gall" does not exceed 1200 meters. It's exactly like the Polish mortar, only it's more than twice as light. And in the most extreme case it can be operated by one crewman, while the "Gall" can't.

How long to wait for 60mm


There are many factors for the rapid appearance of a standard 60-mm mortar in the Russian army. There were many of these factors before the SVO, and even more so now. The weapon can be used practically "off-hand", that is, without installing a tripod carriage. The sound of fire is much weaker than its older 82-mm comrade, which allows you to get closer to the target. The mine on the trajectory does not warn the enemy of its approach, which theoretically neutralizes its lesser lethal effect on the target. And most importantly, the light mortar does not have to be abandoned in the event of an attack. drones APU.

A 60-mm mortar is not something beyond the capabilities of the Russian military-industrial complex. Saturating support units with such weapons is not a cheap, but quite feasible task. One cannot discount the simple fact that almost everyone already has light mortars. The Poles have the aforementioned LMP-2017, the Germans have the RSG-60, the Czechs have the ANTOS, and the Americans have the M224A1 LWCMS. Even the Koreans have a redrawn American analogue, which they actively used in the Kursk region. Apparently, there is definitely something in the 60-mm, we should try it too. But Russia has a working project for its own light mortar. We are talking about a mock-up of the 60-mm mortar MZ-217 "Smolka" from PAO Motovilikha Plants.


60-mm mortar MZ-217 "Smolka". 1 - double loading safety catch, 2 - coupling sleeve, 3 - clip with shock absorber, 4 - horizontal guidance handle, 5 - vertical guidance handle, 6 - bipod carriage, 7 - support plate, 8 - breech, 9 - pipe, 10 - tactical handle, 11 - MPM-44M sight


Using a mortar according to a standard scheme


Use of mortar according to tactical scheme

Quote from the open press:

"Compared to the special purpose silent mortar 2B25 "Gall", developed by JSC "Central Research Institute "Burevestnik", the mortar MZ-217 has a significantly greater firing range and can be used to perform combat missions that require firing at a distance of over 1200 m without the need to ensure silent and flameless firing. Also, the mortar does not require the use of ammunition of a unique design and has a higher autonomy due to the ability to fire foreign mines of 60 mm caliber."

The authors envisage the use of the weapon according to the standard scheme with an unfolded bipedal carriage and according to the tactical one. If fire needs to be opened quickly, the soldier simply places the support plate on the ground, holds it with his hands and works. Perhaps the gunsmiths from Perm developed the Smolka under the impression of the SVO and just do not have time to bring the mortar to mind yet? Nothing of the sort, this is an old development, the first mentions are found in materials from 15 years ago.

What prevents the Defense Ministry from at least launching the Smolka into the troops as a trial operation? The question is rhetorical, but there is hope that we will get an answer to it. If there is an opportunity to dream, then let me mention the contactless detonation systems that greatly increase the effectiveness of miniature 60-mm mines. A mortar is a weapon for fighting infantry, and it is time to add to it the useful function of detonating above the target, and not near it. Then the need for more powerful 82-mm guns may disappear altogether. Evolution or even revolution in conservative mine warfare has been long overdue, and it would be good not to miss it.
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  1. KCA
    -8
    3 September 2025 03: 54
    I am a signalman, but I have not seen any problems with the infantry with 122 mm, trained soldiers could easily lay out the guns, shoot back and retreat, what are you talking about? The plate weighs a lot, I don't know the characteristics, they immediately put them on their backs and left
    1. +20
      3 September 2025 04: 34
      Quote: KCA
      I am a signalman, but I have not seen any problems with the infantry with 122 mm, trained soldiers could easily set up, shoot back and retreat, what are you talking about?

      Maybe 82 mm? Otherwise, a 120 mm mortar is already a transportable system...
      But even for a separation, 82 mm is already too much, a very strong overkill.
      1. +6
        3 September 2025 05: 59
        Without slogans.
        1. The only advantage of the Smolka over the Gall is the firing range and the weight of the ammunition.
        2. Otherwise, the power of the ammunition and the sound of the shot are the priority for the Gall.
        3. In terms of overall weight, rate of fire and mobility, they are comparable.
        4. The rounds for these mortars will in any case be incompatible with the Podnos, but as far as I understand, the ammunition for the Gall can be used as an emergency, but the caliber of the Smolka will have to be mastered in production.
        5. The work of the assault unit described by the authors is just the ideal option for the low-noise "Gall".
        6. For a squad, having its own mortar is excessive. An automatic grenade launcher or a second machine gunner, or a shotgun against UAVs looks more interesting. Even more interesting is the development of the theme - a small-sized universal grenade launcher of the "Fly" class, but based on new design solutions.
        Well, somewhere like that.
        1. +7
          3 September 2025 07: 01
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          The rounds for these mortars will in any case be incompatible with the Podnos, but as far as I understand, the ammunition for the Gall can be used in an abnormal manner.

          This is abnormal, with a high risk of barrel rupture and a monstrous flame from the shot.
          The mine is unique, and the silent mortar cannot operate with standard ammunition from the Podnos.
          1. +3
            3 September 2025 07: 35
            There has been a holy war going on in the nasty carts for several months now about 60 mm versus 80 mm. Is there anyone who can explain the pro and con arguments?
            1. +3
              3 September 2025 08: 22
              Quote: Civil
              There has been a holy war going on in the nasty carts for several months now about 60 mm versus 80 mm. Is there anyone who can explain the pro and con arguments?

              What should I lay out here? Both are appropriate. But as for me, the Gall is just for specialists, at least in terms of the cost of the mine, while the 60mm is a mass-produced and flexible thing, if there is no UAZ at all. And if there is and is appropriate a conditional UAZ, then why not have 82mm?
              1. +2
                3 September 2025 11: 25
                If it were possible to use a UAZ, it would be possible to carry a 2B11 120 mm. Now, in the conditions of UAV dominance, this is not realistic. The only advantage of the 82 and 60 is portability. Moreover, in the "pumping" mortar mode, the 2B14 requires a crew of 5 people, otherwise a full-fledged BC cannot be carried. There is another advantage - 82 mm (to a lesser extent) and 60 mm (almost 100%) are difficult to detect by means of sound reconnaissance.
                1. 0
                  3 September 2025 11: 41
                  Quote: Marlin
                  If it were possible to use a UAZ, it would be possible to carry a 2B11 120 mm

                  Have pity on the UAZ, because there won't be any room left for the ammo, with 5 mortar crew of 120 mm. Well, the UAZ is a convention, a quad bike, two electric bikes... If only you don't have to drag 40 kg with your hands without ammo... So the portability of the 82 is just that, a convention.
                  1. +1
                    3 September 2025 11: 46
                    A couple of quads for 2B14, calculation and BC - normal. Better - 3.
                    1. -2
                      3 September 2025 17: 46
                      There are all sorts of Tigers, Lynxes, etc. Is it really impossible to put a tray on a Tiger?
                      1. +4
                        3 September 2025 19: 10
                        It is possible. Bring it 10 kilometers to the firing position - and further on the hump, along the Ho Chi Minh trail. Because it is closer - to the first fpv. That now and 10 and 30 km does not guarantee.
                      2. +2
                        3 September 2025 19: 15
                        I think you are right. Today we urgently need to solve the issue with drones. I read in the comments from Donetsk that the hohols made a thick curtain of drones on the LBS. I wonder: would shrapnel from the early twentieth century help against FVP drones?
                      3. +2
                        3 September 2025 19: 17
                        Now there is shrapnel 3Sh1 for 122 mm howitzers, there is also an analog for 152 mm. It opens at a height of about 50 m, densely covering the area with "darts". I don't know how it works against UAVs, but I mowed down their operators quite well.
                      4. +3
                        3 September 2025 20: 05
                        Here they are, the striking element from the 3Sh1 projectile from the D30
                      5. +1
                        7 September 2025 19: 52
                        It was installed on the Typhoon-VDV a long time ago, this device is called "Drok". In my humble opinion, the designers did not cope with the task. Or they did it with a C minus. The module with the 82-mm breech-loading mortar received limited angles of both vertical and horizontal guidance. And, in fact, it is not suitable for scaling to other platforms such as the BTR-80/82 or the BMP-1 chassis.
                        Moreover, it is not possible to use all the advantages of the 82 mm caliber, due to the lack of non-contact fuses for air detonation and cluster munitions, although such fuses and ammunition are available abroad. Moreover, there are not even cumulative fragmentation ammunition available, although there was a cumulative mine for the B-10 recoilless rifle earlier.
                        It is a complete failure and devastation, mainly in the minds, not even in industrial capacities. In the end, it was possible to agree with the allies on the production of the missing fuses and ammunition.
                  2. 0
                    12 December 2025 20: 29
                    During WWII, 82 mm mortars were transported on motorcycles with sidecars.
                    1. 0
                      13 December 2025 04: 42
                      Quote from: d.zacharith
                      During WWII, 82 mm mortars were transported on motorcycles with sidecars.

                      Yes, on motorcycles. Specifically, one mortar with ammo and a crew on three motorcycles, in motorcycle regiments.
                2. 0
                  5 September 2025 00: 44
                  What's unrealistic about this? You make an automated mortar, like the Israelis, only based on the UAZ.

                  You install drone detectors and electronic warfare systems on the UAZ. Plus 2-3 shotguns. And that's the whole problem.
            2. +4
              3 September 2025 11: 26
              Quote: Civil
              There has been a holy war going on in the nasty carts for several months now about 60 mm versus 80 mm. Is there anyone who can explain the pro and con arguments?
              A long time ago, 60 mm mortars did not show themselves very well: the low power of the ammunition was a hindrance.
              1. +10
                3 September 2025 12: 03
                Quote: Civil
                There has been a holy war going on in the nasty carts for several months now about 60 mm versus 80 mm. Is there anyone who can explain the pro and con arguments?
                A long time ago, 60 mm mortars did not show themselves very well: the low power of the ammunition was a hindrance.

                And now the Polish woman is a nightmare for stormtroopers. The exit and whistle of the mine is quieter than the rustle of camouflage, the scattering of fragments is right in the groin and lower abdomen, the fragments are sharp, curved, difficult to extract during surgery.
              2. +3
                3 September 2025 12: 46
                Quote: bk0010
                A long time ago, 60 mm mortars did not show themselves very well: the low power of the ammunition was a hindrance.

                I also don't understand the point of the 30mm AGS. It's heavy, almost like the English 81mm L16 mortar, and its power is even lower.....
                1. +4
                  3 September 2025 13: 43
                  Quote: Askold65

                  I also don’t understand the point of a 30mm AGS.
                  It fires in bursts. But the 40mm is definitely better.
                2. +4
                  3 September 2025 18: 21
                  There is a point in the AGS. It suppresses areas well and mows down on a postcard. It can be poured into trenches that are not covered from above - an especially good effect when adjusted from a UAV.
              3. +3
                3 September 2025 17: 48
                Today, they have created ammunition with increased power. A 60mm mine is comparable in power to an 82mm one. This site wrote about it.
              4. -1
                4 September 2025 14: 15
                More powerful ammunition was developed for the 60 mm: the weight of the mines increased from 1,2-1,5 kg to 2,2-2,7 kg.
                The barrels were made longer, and in terms of their main parameters they approached 82 mm.
              5. 0
                8 September 2025 10: 07
                the low power of the ammunition was a problem.
                there was an article on VO about mortars before and during WWII, it mentioned 50mm mortars, the main drawback is the low power of the ammunition, sighting in when shooting from the hands is impossible
        2. +7
          3 September 2025 07: 24
          The rounds for these mortars will in any case be incompatible with the Podnos, but as far as I understand, the ammunition for the Gall can be used in an abnormal manner.

          Absolutely not - the mines for the "Tray" and "Supermodel", which the author mistakenly calls "Gall", have different, completely incompatible with each other schemes for initiating the propellant charge. In fact, it is impossible to lower a standard 82-mm mine into the barrel of a silent mortar.
          But overall, you have written everything very competently. hi
        3. 2al
          +6
          3 September 2025 09: 03
          In the "militia" of the LPR and DPR, musicians quite effectively used, having finished the tail, the standard 82mm as a warhead for a shot for the RPG-7, and to this day this "forgotten art" is found in LBS, and on both sides.
          1. 0
            3 September 2025 09: 42
            The 82mm mine has a thread on its tail, suitable for the RPG-7.
            1. +7
              3 September 2025 11: 01
              No, you need a homemade adapter that screws onto the RPG-7 rocket motor. And the mine is put on the adapter.
        4. +8
          3 September 2025 10: 59
          6. For a squad, having its own mortar is excessive. An automatic grenade launcher or a second machine gunner, or a shotgun against UAVs looks more interesting. Even more interesting is the development of the theme - a small-sized universal grenade launcher of the "Fly" class, but based on new design solutions.

          So the mortar does not belong in the rifle squad, like other heavy weapons. It should be in the fire support platoons.
          1. +1
            3 September 2025 11: 03
            So the mortar does not belong in the rifle squad, like other heavy weapons. It should be in the fire support platoons.

            I argue with the author of the article, who complains that the department does not have its own mortar crew.
        5. 0
          3 September 2025 12: 39
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          The automatic grenade launcher looks more interesting

          Do you mean something like a 40mm revolver type?
        6. 0
          4 September 2025 14: 26
          Addition about the excess of a mortar in a squad: Before the Great Patriotic War, one mortar crew was introduced into the platoon's staff, but during the fighting this decision was abandoned: the fire of a single gun is ineffective - low accuracy, weak ammunition, high consumption of mines to "take a target in a fork" - on average 10-12 min.
          And they moved on to mortar platoons, which showed significantly greater effectiveness in their use.
        7. icy
          +1
          7 September 2025 06: 26
          The Smolka mortar does not require the use of ammunition of a unique design and has a higher autonomy due to the ability to fire foreign 60 mm caliber mines.
          1. 0
            7 September 2025 06: 33
            Quote: icas
            The Smolka mortar does not require the use of ammunition of a unique design and has a higher autonomy due to the ability to fire foreign 60 mm caliber mines.

            I will surprise you, but our 82 and 120 mm mortars and 120 mm Nona guns eat up their Western counterparts without any problems.
      2. KCA
        +1
        3 September 2025 06: 10
        I didn't really have to measure the caliber, apparently 82mm, but they ran fast
    2. -1
      3 September 2025 06: 48
      ... but I haven't seen any problems with the infantry with the 122mm

      There must have been a typo, we have a 120mm mortar in our arsenal.
      Until recently, the Americans used 70 mm mortars, but they abandoned them in favor of the Israeli 120 mm.
    3. +3
      3 September 2025 20: 55
      Really?! A 122 mm plate on the back?! The 2B11 plate weighs at least 80 kilograms. I have never met such powerful backs that would drag this frying pan on a regular basis.
  2. +1
    3 September 2025 05: 37
    What prevents the defense department from at least launching Smolka into the troops as a trial operation?
    We had a lot of promising weapons!!! But.......as always, we bite our elbows and ask ourselves WHY!!!
    1. +5
      3 September 2025 05: 53
      Manturov has already announced the supply of laser systems to the troops to combat UAVs, and here is some mortar. Lasers are already shooting down drones, which is probably why the Internet is restricted in Moscow and St. Petersburg
      1. +5
        3 September 2025 08: 42
        That's why the Internet is restricted in Moscow and St. Petersburg

        yes, all over the country...
      2. +3
        3 September 2025 11: 28
        What can we talk about if we are already purchasing 120 mm mortars from Iran?
        1. +2
          3 September 2025 11: 46
          Quote: Marlin
          We are already purchasing 120 mm mortars from Iran

          Hmm... exactly? winked
          1. +5
            3 September 2025 12: 01
            Information from my comrades in arms. The mortar, by the way, is good.
      3. +5
        3 September 2025 17: 51
        Manturov's head must be hurting now about how to deliver a thousand airliners by 2030. He and Reshetnikov promised Putin this.
      4. +3
        4 September 2025 09: 45
        You can't burn out a dugout with a laser, and you can't cover a trench either!!! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  3. +1
    3 September 2025 05: 52
    "If detected, the operator must grab it in his arms and retreat to cover as quickly as possible. This was planned in advance, it should be noted. But how can this be done with the "Tray", if its loaded weight is over 70 kilograms? And that's without ammunition." - hmm, is it 70 kg? And isn't it about 50 kg?
    1. +2
      3 September 2025 07: 19
      Performance characteristics of the "Tray"
      Caliber - 82mm.
      Weight in combat position - 39 kg.
      Rate of fire: 24 rounds per minute.
      Range - 4,27 km.
      British "L16"
      81mm, 35,4kg; 15-20 per min.; up to 5,6km.
      American M-28
      81mm, 48,6kg, 25-30 per minute; 4,7 km.
      All 82 (81mm) mortars are disassemblable. The heaviest part of our mortar is the support plate. The crew is 4 people, the Americans have 5.
      The weight of the mine is the smallest here - 3.1 kg, abroad from 4 to 5,1 kg.
      Draw your own conclusions.
      My personal opinion is that if the weight of the "Tray" is considered excessive, it can be reduced by lengthening the barrel and, accordingly, by reducing the size of the support plate. However, this will reduce the firing range.
      Well, somewhere like that.
      1. +10
        3 September 2025 10: 39
        The support plate should have been made a long time ago (and replaced in the troops) the titanium one will be twice as light and only two (2) times more expensive.. Everything has been developed and tested a long time ago and all the characteristics have been confirmed. The technical capability is available, but apparently the supply of titanium parts to Boeing and Arbuz is more important than the combat capability of our army..
      2. +5
        3 September 2025 11: 32
        A normal tactical solution for the "Tray" is to have a regular crew of 5 people. They will both carry away human ammunition and provide the rate of fire. In this case, from a stationary position, two people can shoot. It is even more effective if the crew commander has close interaction with the UAV reconnaissance operator, possibly even with the spotter located directly at the OP.
    2. +3
      3 September 2025 15: 54
      70 kg is the weight of the entire complex, including the BC, designed for carrying by a crew of 5 people. Each person carries a load of about 16 kg. My partner and I carried the "Tray" without much strain.
      If discovered, the operator must grab it in his arms and retreat to cover as quickly as possible. This should be noted in advance.

      - a small-sized weapon can be easily camouflaged by local vegetation and local landscape. Elements of small architecture. No one will find it even three meters away. And the crew - quickly into their holes.
  4. +12
    3 September 2025 05: 52
    The article contains a lot of different "letters". But the most important thing is missing - the effectiveness and destructive effect of the 60 mm mine.
    1. +4
      3 September 2025 07: 06
      people like it((ours really love this "polka"
  5. -7
    3 September 2025 05: 59
    Why not attach wheels, an electric motor and a battery from, for example, electric bicycles to the mortar plates. They would arrive quickly, shoot quickly, and leave the position quickly. By the way, there are such
    Electric utility carts for warehouses and household plots.
    1. +1
      3 September 2025 06: 29
      The Italians crossed a machine gun with a bicycle - this is what they got:
      https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fitalian-machine-gun-mounted-bicycle-ww1-v0-c1hwlfvr95x91.jpg%3Fwidth%3D1080%26crop%3Dsmart%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Dc25f0c56e7bc145d28f88f97b503068f820c3806
      The picture didn't want to stick.
      A motorcycle can easily carry a mortar. However, you need another motorcycle loaded with ammunition nearby.
      1. +4
        3 September 2025 08: 48
        please, I caught it feel
        1. +1
          3 September 2025 11: 01
          It's cooler on a motorcycle!
          ...............
          Soviet PMZ-750.
      2. +1
        3 September 2025 17: 11
        In Red Alert 3, the USSR had a combat motorcycle that fired mines as an add-on winked
    2. -1
      3 September 2025 06: 42
      Quote: V.
      Why not attach wheels, an electric motor and a battery from, for example, electric bicycles to the mortar plates. They would arrive quickly, shoot quickly, and leave the position quickly. By the way, there are such

      A saddle on the barrel and a kinematic connection with the plate via a spring-loaded rod - it will gallop and deliver the arrow itself, you just have to manage to load the mines (the driver can be given a checker) )))
    3. +1
      3 September 2025 07: 31
      Quote: V.
      Why not attach wheels, an electric motor and a battery from, for example, electric bicycles to the mortar plates. They would arrive quickly, shoot quickly, and leave the position quickly. By the way, there are such
      Electric utility carts for warehouses and household plots.

      The main thing is not to forget to attach pedals, in case the battery dies!
      Everything has already been invented before us.
      French line of small self-propelled mortars VPX (RPX) - 40M.
      Weight 4,5 (4,7) tons.
    4. 0
      3 September 2025 13: 03
      I would like to be criticized by the commander of a mortar crew fighting in the SVO, and told what they really need.
    5. -1
      3 September 2025 14: 40
      It would be better to come up with a way to attach a fully assembled mortar to the rear of an ATV, with the ability to lower it onto a support plate without detaching it from the ATV.
      And the second cycle with mines.
      They flew up, placed the mortar on the ground, aimed, fired, lifted the slab from the ground and gas.
      1. -1
        7 September 2025 20: 14
        What is all this for? There was a project called "Gorets" with a 120-mm mortar on the chassis of an armored Tiger. The problem is that such equipment is seriously outdated, morally obsolete due to the dominance of enemy drones in the air. If a nomadic mortar is needed, then by analogy with the BMP-3, which has a 100-mm low-ballistic gun. We need a version of the BTR-82A, where the combat module will have an 82-mm mortar and direct fire too, with the ability to launch small-sized missiles like "Bulat" through the barrel. Then it will be some kind of wheeled or light tracked tank on the BMP-1 chassis with a low-ballistic gun in the caliber of 82 mm. But again, a lot of questions. There is no cluster munition, no proximity fuses for airborne detonation, no cumulative fragmentation ammunition, the new Bulat missile is not yet adapted for launching through an 82-mm caliber barrel. According to the Drok project, the combat module with a breech-loading 82-mm mortar, to put it mildly, failed in all the variety of combat missions.
        1. -1
          8 September 2025 15: 03
          on the chassis of an armored Tiger.

          BMP-3, which has a 100mm low-ballistics gun. A variant of the BTR-82A is needed

          such equipment is seriously outdated, morally obsolete due to the dominance of enemy drones in the air

          So the self-propelled mortar based on the Tiger is obsolete because of drones, and the BMP-3 is somehow fundamentally impregnable to drones?
          The BMP-3 is an even easier target for a drone, since it won't be able to break away from the drone on the highway. Otherwise, it's the same.
          That's why I'm talking about quad bikes. Faster and less noticeable machines.
          And the talk was about direct support of the assault aircraft. A full-fledged self-propelled mortar will not be included in the staff of a fire support platoon, they will only be combined into separate batteries and attached for the duration of the assault. And in the article and in my case, we are talking about a cheap and simple fire weapon.
          Then it will be some kind of wheeled or light tracked tank on the BMP-1 chassis with a low-ballistics gun in the caliber of 82 mm. But again, a lot of questions.

          Everything has already been thought up and done before you.
          Search the internet for information about AMOS self-propelled mortars.
          According to the Drok project, the combat module with a breech-loading 82-mm mortar, to put it mildly, was not successful in all the variety of combat missions.

          Why didn't it work out? Tell me)
  6. +7
    3 September 2025 06: 43
    Question 1: where to fit a 60 mm mortar into the existing OShS?
    Question 2: Are there any advantages of the 60 mm mortar over the assault grenade launcher and AGS that are already in service with the troops?
    1. -2
      3 September 2025 14: 49
      where to fit a 60 mm mortar into the existing OShS?

      Issue to assault companies instead of 82mm.
      Those units that have difficulty using 82mm due to its weight and dimensions are the ones that need such mortars.
      It's better to shoot 60mm than to lose the calculation of 82mm
      60 mm mortar in front of the assault grenade launcher and AGS

      No)
      AGS with comparable mass will cover a larger area.
      Automatic hand grenade launchers, in turn, are incomparably more mobile, and can fill that very niche in situations where you won't be allowed to bring a mortar or AGS to the LBS, but you need to throw grenades at the enemy. Coupled with issuing a pair of RShGs to a squad, it allows you to cover the enemy at the front quite well.
      The only problem is that we don’t have such a grenade launcher.
      The GM has only 4 grenades and is of a very specific design.
      The bulldog shoots VOGs from the GP, I think it doesn’t require an explanation of why it’s the bottom.
      1. -1
        3 September 2025 16: 43
        where to fit a 60 mm mortar into the existing OShS?

        Issue to assault companies instead of 82mm.
        Those units that have difficulty using 82mm due to its weight and dimensions are the ones that need such mortars.
        It's better to shoot 60mm than to lose the calculation of 82mm

        But the "polka" has a variant for special forces - without a plate, you can even shoot from your hands. Crew 2 people, BC - 10-20 min. Level - company (in the carriage version) - platoon (in the non-carriage version). The 82-mm mortar is still a battalion level weapon, although it is quite logical to assign it to companies.
        The 60mm mortar in a mountless version can be assigned to separate assault groups.
        The AGS is superior in maneuverability, stealth and ammunition power.
      2. 0
        3 September 2025 17: 46
        And tell me, why is RG-6 the bottom? Or VOGs?
      3. 0
        4 September 2025 14: 30
        When fired at a mortar, the AGS grenade rises to a height of up to 600 m, where it is blown away by the wind - so one can only dream of accuracy.
  7. +1
    3 September 2025 07: 05
    RM-41 was produced in hundreds of thousands, improve the aiming and stamp it in the city, it was used with great success
    1. +4
      3 September 2025 08: 07
      The ammunition is weak. Very weak. That's why it didn't stay in the army.
      1. +1
        3 September 2025 08: 17
        Quote: garri-lin
        The ammunition is weak. Very weak. That's why it didn't stay in the army.

        Is the 30mm AGS more powerful? The AGS has the advantage of being faster-firing, so it's better. There's a concept called mass of a second volley, and the AGS has a higher mass of a second volley. In addition, it's easier to adapt the AGS to the equipment.
        1. +1
          3 September 2025 08: 44
          yes, that's it, the AGS is still a fool, but you can carry a 50 mm mortar in one go
          1. -1
            3 September 2025 08: 48
            yes, that's it, the AGS is still a fool, but you can carry a 50 mm mortar in one go

            There is such a manual multi-charge magazine grenade launcher GM-94, weighs 5 kilos without grenades
            1. +1
              3 September 2025 09: 57
              yes))) but not about our honor)) is there much of it in the troops?
              1. 0
                3 September 2025 14: 51
                Is there a lot of it in the troops?

                More than 60mm mortars.
            2. +1
              3 September 2025 11: 06
              This is an analogue of an underbarrel grenade launcher.
              1. +1
                3 September 2025 22: 29
                The underbarrel grenade launcher is far from it. First of all - the 43mm thermobaric ammunition. Accuracy - this thermobar flies into the vent from a hundred meters, into the window from two hundred without strain. The recoil is minimal, no need to adjust the sight. Shots in a plastic case. VGM-93 weighs about 330 grams, a standard BK 12 in a cartridge belt and 4 loaded, the whole set is about 10 kg. Yes, there are few of them in the troops, expensive. But the thing is cool, love at first shot.
                1. 0
                  4 September 2025 08: 18
                  I'll argue. The lack of a wide range of 40mm rounds for the GP in the troops is solely the fault of the Ministry of Defense. Among them is the VG-40TB Thermobar. You can also work quite accurately from the GP based on experience. I shot with the GM-94 at the range, and saw no advantages over the GP-25. I'd rather carry the RGM-40 Kastet, but for some reason the troops don't have it. I worked with a captured Fort-600, and I really liked it.
          2. +5
            3 September 2025 09: 26
            50-60 mm... In Drabkin's series of books "I fought...." veterans of the Great Patriotic War unanimously claim that the most "nasty" was precisely the German company mortar of 50 mm caliber. The Germans used it everywhere and very effectively, since it was always in the first order. Even in the offensive. The Germans, leading an offensive on a trench, determined its configuration, the location of the main firing points and then covered it with 50 mm mines, from which there was no escape anywhere. Also, in defense, they covered the advancing Soviet troops with small mines, inflicting heavy losses on them, since even if you lay down, this did not save you from the fragments of 50 mm mines, which "shaved" the grass. But this mortar also had significant drawbacks - short range and low penetrating power of light mines, which could not penetrate, even one roll, thin logs, although they effectively hit unsheltered manpower.
            1. +3
              3 September 2025 10: 24
              Quote: Monster_Fat
              The Germans used it everywhere and very effectively, as it was always in the forefront.


              50 mm mortar 5 cm leichte Granatwerfer 36
              The mortar's mass in combat position was 14 kg. Vertical aiming angles: from 42° to 90°. In the horizontal plane: 4°. Rough aiming was carried out by turning the support plate. The calculation consisted of of three person: commander, gunner and loader.
              The Wehrmacht command placed great hopes on 50-mm mortars, and this weapon was produced in large quantities up to a certain point. As of September 1, 1939, the troops had about 6 company mortars. On April 000, 1, there were 1941 14-mm mortars and 913 rounds for them.
              Despite their mass production, 50mm mortars were not popular among the troops, which was largely due to the inadequate level of reliability and safety of mortar mine fuses. There were frequent cases when mines did not explode when they hit soft soil, mud or deep snowdrifts. Or, on the contrary, detonation occurred immediately after the shot, which was fraught with the death of the crew. Due to the fuse being too sensitive, shooting during rain belay or in the snowfall belay was banned.
              Due with low efficiency (!!!!!!!!!) and unsatisfactory safety, in 1943 the production of 5 cm le.Gr.W. 36 mortars was curtailed.
              https://topwar.ru/226317-poslevoennoe-ispolzovanie-trofejnyh-nemeckih-minometov.html

              Veterans' testimonies differ from the Wehrmacht's decisions due to the combat situation - the war...
              1. +1
                3 September 2025 15: 05
                Veterans' testimonies contradict Wehrmacht decisions

                As always, the coin has two sides.
                When the Germans need to shoot back, they can’t shoot, they don’t explode, or they kill their own crew.
                When it hit our people, our people really didn't like it.
                As anyone.
                As far as I know, ours did not hesitate to use captured mortars.
                It must have been like with the panzerfausts.
                The Germans howl that the fuse doesn't work, that it doesn't penetrate, that the range is terrible, take it and modernize it. And our guys grabbed the trophies with both hands and asked the rear to copy them and put them into production.
                Having is not appreciated
                1. +1
                  3 September 2025 15: 59
                  Quote: English tarantass
                  And our guys grabbed the trophies with both hands and asked the rear to copy them and put them into production.
                  Having is not appreciated

                  Rear - categorically didn't want to make "panzerfausts"
                  Quote: English tarantass
                  As far as I know, ours did not hesitate to use captured mortars.
                  It was exactly the same with mortars - they fired off the ammunition and abandoned them...

                  In this particular case, the idea of ​​small caliber mortars was rejected by the command. both parties
                  1. +1
                    3 September 2025 16: 40
                    The rear categorically did not want to make "panzerfausts"

                    As far as I remember, the main argument was that why do it ourselves, burden the industry and toil to master the complex technology of cumulative warheads and propellant powders, if the Germans had already riveted a couple of million and hospitably handed them over to the Soviet army.
                    And after that, all the other arguments are about the mediocrity of the design and questionable effectiveness.
                    It was exactly the same with mortars - they fired off the ammunition and abandoned them

                    The problem with any captured weapon is its ammunition.
                    Although, as far as I know, mortars were often thrown onto equipment and driven until the ammunition was found.
                    It was similar with the MG machine guns.
                    It’s not that they threw you out outright, only if you were a burden.
                    Of course, no one will adopt it or copy it. But they used it regularly.
                    1. -1
                      3 September 2025 22: 28
                      Quote: English tarantass
                      As far as I remember, the main argument was that why do it ourselves, burden the industry and toil to master the complex technology of cumulative warheads and propellant powders, if the Germans had already riveted a couple of million and hospitably handed them over to the Soviet army.

                      Hm billion(!!!) Mauser cartridges were screaming "Why do you need a Mosinka when there are plenty of captured Mauser 98s??!! "
                      What the Germans did with the USV...
                      lol lol
                      In reality, the main ones
                      Quote: English tarantass
                      arguments in mediocrity of design and questionable effectiveness.

                      Quote: English tarantass
                      Of course, no one will adopt it or copy it. But they used it regularly.

                      USV, adopted into service after modification and used throughout the war - this was a truly high-quality weapon of high efficiency, and not ersatz like Fausts or crutches in the form of 60 mm mortars
            2. +2
              3 September 2025 15: 00
              The Germans used it everywhere.

              That's the whole point.
              The weight and dimensions of the mortar allow it to be placed in almost every compartment.
              Another thing is that today, each department has been equipped with a much lighter and no less effective weapon - underbarrel grenade launchers.
              If the GP itself is mediocre, then you can look at foreign analogues.
              Make a 40mm grenade launcher with a long barrel, with its own separate stock, not for hanging under a machine gun. And that's all.
              The Ukrainian Armed Forces actively use such things. Our people speak well of the trophies.
              1. +1
                3 September 2025 17: 39
                Oh, the armchair expert is visible. And how is this GP more mediocre than its foreign analogues?
                In general, underbarrel grenade launchers are rare now due to the shortage of VOGs. After taking Avdiivka, we took some Bulgarian trophies, and then we worked with them.
                1. +1
                  3 September 2025 17: 54
                  And how is this GP more mediocre than its foreign counterparts?

                  The design of the ammunition greatly limits its capabilities.
                  Starting from the nomenclature of the warheads and ending with the characteristics of the entire system.
                  Increase accuracy by simply lengthening the barrel? No.
                  Put a longer grenade in there, with a bigger warhead? So that it sticks out of the barrel?
                  Reloading is not as convenient and safe. You can not fully load the grenade, with subsequent problems with firing. Pull out the grenade? Impossible.
                  The recoil impulse itself is high. The barrel walls need to be made thicker, which increases the weight of the grenade launcher. And you also need thickening for the rifling, because no barrel length without rifling is good for anything.
                  Still, grenade launchers similar to the German M320 are more successful. More convenient and with a greater reserve for modernization and variability.
                  This is where the Soviet design school changed places with the Western one. They did it very wisely and far-sightedly, but we overdid it for no reason.
                  Although they still don't have unification of grenades with their AGS. So there is room to grow.
                  Well, they still haven’t made a standard crutch for the GP in large quantities, so that the GP can be used separately from the machine gun.
                  Small purchases only.
                  Oh, the couch expert is in sight

                  But for you it's all God's dew. The main thing is that it's domestic.
                  In general, underbarrel grenade launchers are now a rarity due to the shortage of VOGs.

                  How does this relate directly to the design of the VOG?
                  1. +3
                    3 September 2025 18: 05
                    Warhead nomenclature for underbarrel grenade launchers? Google it. The same Bulgarians produce more than 20 types of shots for our GP. Is that not enough? I won't even mention the Western ones.
                    The accuracy is quite normal.
                    Put a longer grenade in there, with a bigger warhead? So that it sticks out of the barrel?

                    Already done.
                    Reloading is not as convenient and safe. You can not fully load the grenade, with subsequent problems with firing. Pull out the grenade? Impossible.

                    Nonsense. Shot, inserted a new FOG. What's dangerous? The FOG is extracted with an extractor in one movement. What's the problem?
                    The recoil impulse itself is high.

                    Nonsense. I've shot dozens of VOGs from the shoulder.
                    It seems like we have a unification of VOGs for the State Enterprise and for the AGS?

                    Well, I'm too lazy to even discuss all your other nonsense. Study the material.
              2. 0
                3 September 2025 20: 10
                Quote: English tarantass
                Make a 40mm grenade launcher, with a long barrel, with its own separate stock, not for hanging under a machine gun. And that's all.

                The GM-94 has been made in Tula for a long time. True, the caliber is 43 mm for three shots. The weight without shots is 4,5 kg. The Tula designers have made a hand-held grenade launcher with a minimal unmasking effect - a quiet sound of the grenade being fired, a complete absence of a fiery flash of the shot. The magazine is loaded from the top of the grenade launcher, which makes it easier to reload the GM-94 with ammunition. The fired cartridges from the grenades are thrown downwards, which is very important when firing in closed spaces.
                1. 0
                  3 September 2025 20: 47
                  GM-94 has been made in Tula for a long time now

                  I'm talking about weapons like this:
                  1. -3
                    3 September 2025 21: 03
                    Quote: English tarantass
                    I'm talking about weapons like this:

                    How much does it weigh? About two kilograms? They are only good for shooting from a trench, not for carrying into an assault. The Americans had a similar RG in service during the Vietnam campaign, designated M79.
          3. 0
            3 September 2025 10: 15
            Quote from Mazunga
            yes, that's it, the AGS is still a fool, but you can carry a 50 mm mortar in one go

            It is possible - but they didn't like it very much. Only the ampulometes were disliked more...
            The range is negligible, the charge is weak...
        2. 0
          3 September 2025 09: 20
          The weakness of the 30mm AGS has been discussed for a long time. Even here on VO there were a couple of articles with analysis. The fragments are weak.
          1. +3
            3 September 2025 11: 09
            But if you're covered by a burst of AGS on the postcard, then you're dead. And that's the only way VOGs fly into the trenches.
            1. 2al
              0
              3 September 2025 11: 37
              When installed on a rigid turret instead of a machine, they lay it very accurately, even with overhead fire. But of course you need to "sight in". And they even tried to do something weird with the AGS barrel, fortunately the workshops were nearby.
            2. 0
              3 September 2025 13: 05
              Quote: Dmitry_Likhoded
              But if you are caught in a queue at the AGS on the postcard, then you are dead.

              This is unlikely... The grenade fragments are too small to kill. Especially a stormtrooper in a bulletproof vest, which even an automatic rifle bullet cannot penetrate. But these fragments hit the limbs, which are then difficult to extract and treat. The late Motorola (may the Kingdom of Heaven be his) spoke about this, who spent a long time in the hospital after such a painful injury.
              1. 0
                3 September 2025 17: 32
                Well, you know better. Of course, an AGS can't kill, the fragments are small. And the fragments of a 60 mm mine are tiny, not dangerous at all.
                1. -1
                  3 September 2025 19: 37
                  Quote: Dmitry_Likhoded
                  And the 60mm mine produces tiny fragments, not dangerous at all.

                  It's almost like a hand-held fragmentation grenade, but that's a more serious piece of ammunition.
                2. -1
                  3 September 2025 19: 44
                  Quote: Dmitry_Likhoded
                  Of course, the AGS can't kill, the fragments are small.

                  Maybe. If a grenade hits the forehead. And only if the soldier is without a helmet. laughing
                3. -1
                  4 September 2025 14: 36
                  The new 60mm mines produce fragments comparable in size and lethality to the 82mm ones.
              2. 0
                3 September 2025 19: 12
                In conditions of practical absence of evacuation from the red zone, 300~200.
            3. -1
              3 September 2025 15: 54
              Depends on the SIBZ that I will be wearing.
              1. 0
                3 September 2025 17: 34
                It's a matter of luck. A splinter can fly anywhere. Under a helmet and under armor. There are no Terminators on LBS.
                1. 0
                  3 September 2025 19: 03
                  If it flies in.
                  If it doesn't fly in.
                  Or maybe a direct hit.
                  Or maybe the fuse won't work.
        3. +4
          3 September 2025 11: 05
          But with a 60mm mortar, 1-2 people can easily move and work in a forested area, but with an AGS, that won’t work.
          1. +1
            4 September 2025 08: 30
            Once upon a time I saw a TKB hand grenade launcher for VOG17 at an exhibition, apparently the topic died out... But otherwise it's a very reasonable thing, a 5-shot magazine. The issue of recoil, of course, it should be twice as high as the GP25, not every shooter can handle it
            1. 0
              4 September 2025 08: 43
              Quote: Dmitry Eon
              Once upon a time I saw a TKB hand grenade launcher for VOG17 at an exhibition, apparently the topic died out... But otherwise it's a very reasonable thing, a 5-shot magazine. The issue of recoil, of course, it should be twice as high as the GP25, not every shooter can handle it

              It is also possible to use overhead fire with the butt resting on the ground.
              1. 0
                4 September 2025 11: 13
                Well, essentially yes, the recoil is much less than that of the 60. At the same time, you can zero in
  8. +6
    3 September 2025 07: 18
    Why stumble over nothing? There have been reports for a long time that our soldiers are using captured 60-mm mortars in the SVO! In addition, 60-mm mortars were adopted by the DPR corps and their production was established on the initiative of Zakharchenko ... There is information that the North Koreans shared their "sixties" with our soldiers in the Kursk region ... (by the way, the soldiers noted that the Polish 60s are better!) Russia also has its own backlog ... no need to invent from scratch! At one time, light "single-shot" 82-mm and 120-mm mortars were developed in the likeness of rocket-propelled grenades (RPG) made of fiberglass! By the way, the developers of the "Gall" also promised a 60-mm version with a firing range of up to 4,5 km! Recently in Russia they proposed a 120 mm mortar made of carbon fiber with a steel liner... What prevents them from making 82 mm and 60 mm "variants"? At the end of the last century in France they proposed titanium mortars for sabotage and reconnaissance groups! The 82 mm mortar, for example, weighed 34 kg!
    1. +1
      3 September 2025 07: 41
      At the end of the last century, titanium mortars were offered for sabotage and reconnaissance groups in France! An 82 mm mortar, for example, weighed 34 kg!

      Hello Nikolaevich, as far as I understand, reducing the weight of the mortar directly affects its stability when firing.
      1. +1
        4 September 2025 14: 38
        That's right. That's why bags of soil are placed on the base plate.
    2. +1
      3 September 2025 08: 32
      By the way, I might be wrong... Why not make the 82mm mortar base plate out of composites to make it lighter?
      1. +1
        3 September 2025 10: 26
        Quote: Alexander Vanichev
        By the way, I might be wrong... Why not make the 82mm mortar base plate out of composites to make it lighter?
        What kind of composites do you offer?
        The mortar has a very strong impact load on it. supporting slab - you need a composite that won't bend or split.
        hi
      2. +1
        3 September 2025 13: 32
        Quote: Alexander Vanichev
        Why not make the 82mm mortar base plate out of composites to make it lighter?

        Actually, they are already making it "somewhere"! Somewhere, from light metal alloys (aluminum, titanium)... and somewhere from special impact-resistant plastic! True, I know about prototypes and experimental small-scale production! The last time there was a message from Chelyabinsk, where they offered a 120-mm mortar with a barrel made of carbon fiber and a support plate made of a particularly strong composite! The mortar weighs 2 times less than the "standard serial" one!,
    3. 0
      3 September 2025 15: 04
      titanium mortars

      Titanium is too brittle a metal for a barrel - its yield point and strength are the same. Where a regular barrel would simply wear out, a titanium one would burst!
      1. +1
        3 September 2025 17: 33
        Well, firstly...not "pure" titanium is used, but titanium alloys, secondly, titanium alloys are widely used in the production of artillery weapons! By the way, titanium is widely attributed to the American howitzer, the notorious M777! (I agree that it is not the barrel... But on the Internet you can find information about companies that were engaged in the production of titanium barrels..) And titanium submarine hulls? Titanium alloys in aircraft construction? If titanium were so "brittle", then so much attention would not be paid to it! Titanium would be used in much greater quantities, if not for the price and... some disadvantages of the metal!
        1. +1
          3 September 2025 17: 47
          By fragility it is necessary to understand exactly what I wrote - the tensile strength and yield strength are the same. It is like a wrench made of Drop Forged steel compared to Cr V. The first option will crack under a strong load, the second will deform a little with an increase in the recess for the nut (it will stretch) but will not break. That is, it is not as brittle as glass or cast iron, which have a tensile strength many times less than their compressive strength.
          1. 0
            5 September 2025 10: 40
            By brittleness we should understand fragility, which is not the case with titanium. Titanium is one of the most viscous materials comparable to chromium-nickel stainless steel.
            1. 0
              6 September 2025 18: 20
              Have you ever held titanium in your hands? I had my father's titanium knife for underwater "walks" with a voluminous foam handle, balanced by buoyancy so that it wouldn't sink. Once, when I was little, I tried to pry something off with it - the stainless steel would have bent, and the sharp tip of this one flew off - my father then sharpened it...
            2. 0
              13 November 2025 16: 50
              Titanium is one of the most ductile materials, comparable to chromium-nickel stainless steel.

              Titanium balancers on BMD break very easily.
  9. +4
    3 September 2025 07: 58

    What prevents the defense department from at least launching Smolka into the troops as a trial operation?

    Well, probably the fact that mortars are not collected in the nearest undergrowth after a mushroom rain, and mines for them do not grow on trees.
    In order to launch at least a pilot batch of a new type of weapon, enterprises will have to reduce the production of mortars and mines of the current range (I wonder how the front lines will react to this) or get funds and production space from somewhere to expand production (probably Mr. Fedorov will help), manufacture pilot samples and a batch of ammunition for them, conduct a test cycle at least at the level of the chief designer, shoot firing tables and conduct testing of the products in the troops.
    For the author, of course, all these are rhetorical questions, but for those who deal with all this, and not write articles, there are at least two of them:
    - what should industry do with the money spent on the whim of Mr. Fedorov and others like him, if the model does not live up to their expectations and the Ministry of Defense ultimately refuses to purchase it?
    - the Ministry of Defense - and those tasks that are supposed to be solved by the 60-mm mortar definitely cannot be solved by other types of weapons? Isn't the range of tasks for which it is proposed to fit into the mess with its development and putting into series production too narrow?
    In general, it's good when the 60-ku is captured or bought from the side. But when it is necessary to organize its own production - the characteristics of this miracle begin to play in completely different colors.
  10. +2
    3 September 2025 08: 07
    contactless detonation systems that greatly increase the effectiveness of miniature 60mm mines

    For this we need microelectronics, but we don’t have an electronics industry.
    1. -2
      3 September 2025 09: 25
      There is a VOG that jumps up after touching an obstacle. No microelectronics. The same principle can be laid in a 60 mm mine.
      1. 0
        3 September 2025 11: 56
        Quote: garri-lin
        There is a VOG that jumps up after touching an obstacle. No microelectronics. The same principle can be embedded in a 60 mm mine

        I'll let you in on a great secret! In WW2, the Germans had 81mm mines that "worked" on this principle!
        1. 0
          3 September 2025 15: 57
          So what's the secret?
          If this is implemented in the 40 mm VOG, then in the 60 mm mine it will not cause any problems.
          By the way, I'm surprised why there is no such thing for 82mm.
          1. 0
            3 September 2025 17: 40
            Quote: garri-lin
            So what's the secret?

            About the "awesome secret" - that's a joke! (It's a pity you didn't get it!)
            Quote: garri-lin
            By the way, why is there no such thing for 82mm? I'm surprised.

            I repeat... in WW2 the Germans had "jumping" 81mm mines! So there is no problem making this! But perhaps there are some other reasons not to do it!
            1. -1
              3 September 2025 19: 06
              The reasons are strange. Especially since the efficiency really increases. I don't believe that they couldn't. And why they didn't want to is unclear. Now the bouncing 82mm for dropping from a drone is an ideal weapon. But alas.
    2. 0
      3 September 2025 16: 52
      Radio fuses for artillery shells were made back in the hairy Soviet years.
  11. 0
    3 September 2025 10: 01
    The small group has become the gold standard of offensive tactics for the Russian Army. Only pairs and threes of fighters are able to approach the enemy's front line relatively unnoticed. Small groups of fighters also infiltrate the rear of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, group together over the course of several days or even weeks, and then attack in the most unexpected place.

    Positional warfare, combat operations have come to the point where 2-3 fighters on foot must run up to the front line, fire a small silent mortar, and quickly run away? Is that really so? And what is the way out of this impasse? And most importantly, when will it be found? Or is it not necessary to look for it? And then why do we need such and motorized rifle troops, military equipment in general? That is, is this the only way now?
    1. 0
      3 September 2025 16: 56
      Until an effective means of combating drones is found, this will remain the case.
      The tactics of the near future/present is to create a kill zone where even cats are afraid to walk. Whose kill zone is more intense and long-range is the winner.
  12. 0
    3 September 2025 10: 37
    Another shitty expert.
    In the first photo is it definitely a "Tray"?
    Otozh.
    1. +2
      3 September 2025 16: 10
      I noticed this too. By all indications, this is a 120mm mortar.
  13. +3
    3 September 2025 11: 13
    The problem with calculating 82-mm mortars is not the weight of the mortar itself, but the weight of its ammunition, which must be carried on your back for 20 kilometers in one direction, under enemy drones.
    1. +2
      3 September 2025 11: 55
      Quote: Dmitry_Likhoded
      The problem with calculating 82-mm mortars is not the weight of the mortar itself, but the weight of its ammunition, which must be carried on your back for 20 kilometers in one direction, under enemy drones.

      With the availability of modern means of visual and instrumental reconnaissance, precise target designation and ultra-precise weapons, the mortar is an anachronism. An infantryman or, as it is fashionably called, a "stormtrooper" should be engaged in reconnaissance and target designation, and not carry mines or sometimes anti-tank mines to throw into a dugout.
      1. +1
        3 September 2025 17: 36
        It's immediately obvious that you weren't under mortar fire. And drones are now doing reconnaissance and targeting.
  14. 0
    3 September 2025 11: 27
    The mine on the trajectory does not warn the enemy of its approach, which theoretically neutralizes its lesser lethal effect on the target.

    Its lower lethal effect with the same type of explosive can only be offset by its greater accuracy (and even then only to a certain extent). And accuracy can only be increased by controllability. And controllability is a completely different design of ammunition/price/timeframe, etc., etc. If it is really needed, then go for it.
    1. 0
      4 September 2025 14: 42
      Rifled mortars have been invented for a long time, which have significantly greater accuracy, but the price of these guns and ammunition for them is comparable to conventional guns and mortars and shells for them.
  15. +3
    3 September 2025 11: 29
    If discovered, the operator must grab it in his arms and retreat to cover as quickly as possible.
    Why grab it in an armful? What will happen to this piece of iron? Push it to the ground so it won't show, and run.
  16. +2
    3 September 2025 12: 20
    Why do assault units need a range of more than 1200 m? Artillery should work further, well, or the same drones - anyway, you can hardly hit such a range right away, and if you start to aim, then those who are closer will cover you. And a mortar, as such, is not very convenient for assault aircraft. In theory, you need something like an RPG-16 (maybe a little larger caliber), with ammunition with a remote tube (like Dyakonov grenades).
  17. +2
    3 September 2025 13: 15
    50-mm company mortars mod. 1938 and 1940 - Soviet mortars of 50 mm caliber. They are a smoothbore rigid system with an imaginary triangle scheme. A total of 1939 company mortars were produced from 1943 to 181675.
    1. 0
      3 September 2025 16: 05
      Quote: Berest
      50-mm company mortars mod. 1938 and 1940 - Soviet mortars of 50 mm caliber. They are a smoothbore rigid system with an imaginary triangle scheme. A total of 1939 company mortars were produced from 1943 to 181675.

      They stopped producing it SIMULTANEOUSLY with the Wehrmacht. Why is there such unanimity among the generals of both sides, do you know??
  18. Owl
    0
    3 September 2025 13: 43
    Introduce a mortar platoon, three sections with two mortars each, and a support section into the company's staff, test it out during exercises, and then practice it in the SVO zone. Only based on the results will it be possible to judge the necessity of such organizational changes.
  19. +4
    3 September 2025 13: 49
    Maybe it would be easier to fire a hundred shots from an AGS?
    And while the enemy is at the "disco", get closer to fire contact.
    And for something more powerful there are "uncles with Grad\Hurricane\TOS"...
    1. +3
      3 September 2025 17: 53
      Are they really going to let you fire a hundred shots? Back in 2023, we shot one snail and ran for cover. Now, drones will quickly identify you and destroy you.
  20. 0
    3 September 2025 14: 31
    An evolution or even revolution in conservative mine warfare is long overdue

    Is the author aware that 50-60mm mortars have existed for a hundred years?
    Delayed revolution?
    If they made a mortar that could be fired from the hand with direct fire, then yes, it would be priceless.
    1. +1
      3 September 2025 17: 55
      A mortar for direct fire from the hands? It was created for something else. And what is wrong with grenade launchers for direct fire?
      1. -2
        3 September 2025 18: 04
        What's wrong with grenade launchers for direct fire?

        Personally, it makes no difference to me.
        I am also skeptical about small caliber mortars.
        The mine is not fundamentally superior to hand grenades, and such a system weighs quite a lot.
        It is not clear to me why such a mortar is needed when there are RShG and hand-held grenade launchers.
        That is why I see only one version of such a mortar, only in the lightest possible version and with the ability to fire, including directly from the hands.
        Or it will be something like a heavy underbarrel grenade launcher, a manual system, with a greater grenade power and a greater range of fire. And then it will be a weapon that can be shoved down to the squad level, and it will be able to fully support the assault with good fire, starting from the approaches and ending with close combat.
        Or it's just a very weak mortar. It has its niche, of course, but it's very narrow.
        1. +2
          3 September 2025 18: 06
          At least read about the difference between a mortar and a grenade launcher. About shot trajectories and the rest.
          1. 0
            3 September 2025 18: 44
            At least read about the difference between a mortar and a grenade launcher. About shot trajectories and other things.

            A grenade launcher can't fire indirectly, and a mortar can't fire direct fire?
            1. 0
              4 September 2025 08: 04
              No, they can't. I won't even discuss such nonsense.
        2. 0
          3 September 2025 19: 28
          I am also skeptical about small caliber mortars.

          Apparently, they never came under fire from the Poles.
          The mine is not fundamentally superior to hand grenades, and such a system weighs quite a lot.

          Google the difference in the shape of the fragmentation field of a mine and a fragmentation grenade.
          Or it will be something like a heavy grenade launcher, a manual system, with a greater grenade power and a greater firing range.

          "Polka" in the special forces version is more or less the same.
          1. 0
            3 September 2025 20: 45
            Apparently, they never came under fire from the Poles.

            You won't like a musket bullet either.
            But you won't demand that the state-issued arquebus "Tula 1584" be adopted into service, will you?
            Google the difference in the shape of the fragmentation field of a mine and a fragmentation grenade.

            This is not about F1.
            Hand grenades come in different types.
            "Polka" in the special forces version is more or less the same.

            What am I talking about ...
            1. 0
              3 September 2025 21: 39
              You won't like a musket bullet either.
              But you won't demand that the state-issued arquebus "Tula 1584" be adopted into service, will you?

              The 60mm mortar is a fairly modern weapon, used by many fairly well-equipped technological armies.
              Google the difference in the shape of the fragmentation field of a mine and a fragmentation grenade.

              In artillery, the term "grenade" refers to a fragmentation shell of up to 122 mm caliber, and not a hand bomb.
    2. 0
      8 October 2025 15: 32
      If they made a mortar that could be fired from the hand with direct fire, then yes, it would be priceless.


      This type of "mortar" has been around for a long time and is called the hand-held underbarrel grenade launcher GP-25, GP-30.....
      There is also a pump-action 4-shot GM-94, which was created for assault operations....
      1. 0
        9 October 2025 14: 47
        This type of "mortar" has been around for a long time and is called the hand-held underbarrel grenade launcher GP-25, GP-30.....
        There is also a pump-action 4-shot GM-94, it was created for assault operations.

        We don't understand the difference in power between a 50-60mm mine and a VOG?
        It's especially interesting to see how the GP fires from indirect positions and high-angle fire. What about the ability to repeat a shot with the same aim when firing off-hand or from a machine gun? What about the firing range and accuracy?
  21. +2
    3 September 2025 16: 16
    An absolutely typical article from a specific author. I wanted to write a lot, but I see that it was written for me. I will note only one thing

    The article states that the 2B14 "Podnos" mortar with a caliber of 82 mm is not suitable for the SVO. Let's assume. And on this basis, the conclusion is made that it is necessary to master a completely new caliber of 60 mm and, as a result, to establish production of a completely new range of mines. The logical question "Is it possible to make a suitable mortar in the existing 82 mm caliber?" is not even considered.

    At the same time, it would seem that the article mentions the 2B25 mortar and says that it is bad only because of its special nomenclature of mines. A logical question arises: "Why can't it be made like the 2B25, but so that it works with the existing nomenclature of mines?" It does, but not from the author.
    1. 0
      3 September 2025 20: 30
      Well, to be honest, it's not hard to carry an 82mm mortar. But it's hard to carry an ammo pack for it. Unless of course you need to fire it 5 times.
  22. 0
    3 September 2025 18: 12
    Quote: Amateur
    The article contains a lot of different "letters". But the most important thing is missing - the effectiveness and destructive effect of the 60 mm mine.


    The most important thing is the wearable weight.
    If you shoot at unentrenched manpower, there is no fundamental difference between 81/82 and 60.
    But in terms of mobility of the foot crew - yes, that is why the pendejos had to be returned to the 60mm troops during Vietnam.
  23. +3
    3 September 2025 19: 35
    "Assault operations are supported mainly by automatic grenade launchers..." Why not provide the assault aircraft with AGS-30? Which is twice (!!!) lighter than the "old man" AGS-17? Why not establish mass production of "Gall" mortars? Which already exist, albeit "in single copies"? In general, it seems that all new and advanced weapons are created in single copies exclusively for Exhibitions and Parades! And if you look at the reports from the LBS - solid "old stuff" in the form of DShKM machine guns, AGS-17 grenade launchers, Strela-10 SAM systems, etc.
  24. +2
    3 September 2025 19: 53
    I couldn’t help but comment on the mortars, because according to the military service manual, the mortar gunner is 82-120 mm.
    Honestly, I'm fed up with the theoretical experts who write without even bothering to study the performance characteristics of what they're writing about...
    82-mm (if you omit the GALL) in the Russian Federation three systems are widely represented:
    1. We'll leave out the cornflower here - it's just a different class of weapon
    2. BM-37 (I served with it), developed in 1937, adopted for service in 1938. Weight on packs 63,5 kg
    3. Tray - weight on packs 45,1 kg.
    Both the BM and the Podnos are lighter in combat position.
    It is unclear where the author found an 82 mm mortar weighing over 70 kg....
    The fastest preparation for opening fire (and we exceeded the standards) is 1,5 minutes for semi-direct fire, too long for attack aircraft
    aimed shooting at a distance of less than 500 meters is for virtuosos. We have not even shot at such distances.
    Both the BM and the Podnos were initially developed and used as BATTALION-level weapons.
    And its use in the SVO - as it is used - is a palliative for the lack of alternatives.
    The practical limit of ammunition carrying by a crew (taking into account the rest of the equipment and personal weapons) - and this is you "crawling" on foot over rough terrain, 18 minutes in three packs. If someone says that a trained person can easily carry more, then let him take the equivalent in weight of personal equipment, personal weapons, part of a mortar and two trays with mines and walk on asphalt at least a kilometer, and I will watch this circus.
    I don’t understand at all how people do things to them that can be found in videos on the Internet.
    And regarding the 60 mm - its mine, unlike the 82 mm, is made to go off by almost a tarpaulin canopy. The high explosive effect is useless. It makes no sense in the presence of grenade launchers.
    Judging by what I see on the Internet, the fighters lack something like Gala with a good HE mine, not a fragmentation mine, in order to quickly suppress the enemy in cover.
    1. +2
      4 September 2025 08: 41
      And regarding the 60 mm - its mine, unlike the 82 mm, is made to go off by almost a tarpaulin canopy. The high explosive effect is useless. It makes no sense in the presence of grenade launchers.

      Apparently you've never come under fire from 60mm mortars. You can't hear the exits and the whistle of the mortar appears literally a second before the explosion. If you aimed accurately, you're screwed.
      When you are regularly harassed by "polka" from the neighboring planting, located 1 km from yours, a grenade launcher will not help you in any way. It does not have enough range.
      1. 0
        4 September 2025 13: 32
        The grenade launcher won't help you at all. It won't have enough range.


        Even the AGS-30 has a range of over a kilometer.
        1. 0
          5 September 2025 11: 46
          We weren't talking about AGS, but about rocket-propelled grenade launchers. No one will drag AGS to the front line.
          1. +1
            5 September 2025 11: 48
            They won't just drag them, there are even corresponding lightweight modifications. Another thing is that, as far as I know, their number in the troops is minimal.
            1. +1
              5 September 2025 11: 50
              No, they won't drag it. I say this as a practitioner.
      2. 0
        4 September 2025 18: 01
        I won't argue here, mortars can be a real nightmare. But there is one argument against small-caliber mortars. During the Great Patriotic War, both the USSR and Germany stopped producing 50-mm mortars almost simultaneously, in 1943. Due to their low efficiency. That is, the two most warring countries at that time stopped the established production of an entire class of weapons, while in the USSR they not only stopped producing them, but they withdrew them from the troops.
        In reality, in my personal opinion, we need to raise the AGS-40 "Balkan" project from oblivion, make it as light as possible, even at the expense of its service life, since the weapon does not last long in combat, and send it to the troops in large batches.
        1. +1
          5 September 2025 11: 48
          Don't compare the conditions of combat in WWII and in the SVO. They are completely different.
      3. +1
        7 September 2025 17: 57
        everything is scary, hand grenades, wogs, 60mm mines, fpv
        a regular nomadic mortar that terrorizes positional defenses and, unlike the 82nd, is not capable of poking around light cover
        1. +1
          7 September 2025 20: 31
          82 mm mines are also not capable of picking through shelters. But there is a misunderstanding and various subtleties here. Both cumulative-fragmentation ammunition and cluster munitions have appeared, but not in our country. We still have neither a cumulative-fragmentation 82 mm mine nor a cluster mine in this caliber, we don’t even have a proximity fuse for detonation in the air.
          1. 0
            7 September 2025 22: 19
            if there is a flooring of boards or branches above the trench, it will not be an obstacle for a 3 kg mine
            If they didn't appear, it means they are expensive and ineffective
  25. -2
    5 September 2025 00: 55
    for the new 60mm, we should try to cast the mine body from plastic with a fragmentation jacket. Compared to cast iron, the weight of the shot is saved, which is invaluable for infantrymen
  26. Old
    0
    6 September 2025 00: 57
    The introduction of a new caliber in the current situation with our ammunition industry will lead to only one thing. To their chronic shortage, and here we seem to have a claim for mass infantry weapons. It is probably easier to modernize the 82nd to make it lighter. Well, and no one is stopping us from working on the power of the 82nd mine. But this is the path of evolution, and the author wants a revolution)
  27. +1
    7 September 2025 18: 41
    in short, a substitute for the AGS, or a particularly powerful underbarrel grenade launcher
    all mortars have low accuracy, how many low-power mines do you need to use to aim and cover the target, and if the target has time to react and run for cover, what to do then, it's not an 82mm mortar
    and if you pick at infantry in trenches, how many mines do you have to drag along, how much time will it take, and can a 60mm mine do anything at all?

    For fire support, the best option is a special assault AGS, fed from a magazine on top, like on Bofors anti-aircraft guns, with a special drain valve, like on a 50mm Soviet mortar, to dump excess propellant gases from the barrel and obtain various ballistic trajectories
    or again a single-shot rifled gun 76mm or 57mm like the 7,5 cm leichtes Infanteriegeschütz 18 or the 76-mm mountain gun model 1958
    only without a massive carriage with a wheeled chassis, the entire structure with ammunition, which is designed for three kilometers
    Mortars, like MLRS, take quantity, the light weight of the system is compensated by the amount of ammunition expended
    rifled systems are much better

    I am especially amused by 60mm mortars, which without a bipod you have to hold with your hand, apparently using a bubble level, and shoot from this at a distance of up to a kilometer, and if your hands are shaking, and if your hand jerks during the shot, these small movements of the barrel in some degrees will then turn into tens of meters of undershooting or overshooting, and the mine is weak
    1. 0
      8 October 2025 15: 19
      and if your hands are shaking, or if your hand jerks during the shot, these small movements of the barrel in a few degrees will then turn into tens of meters of undershoot or overshoot, and the mine is weak


      If your hands are shaking, you are either an alcoholic or a sick person...

      The underbarrel grenade launcher is fired in much the same way "at a mortar," by placing the butt on the ground and manually adjusting the angle. With sufficient experience, it can be quite accurate...
      1. +1
        12 October 2025 16: 39
        either tired or stressed, but that doesn't change the fact that your hand might jerk during the shot and the mine might fly who knows where
        The under-barrel grenade launcher shoots up to 400 meters maximum, but in reality it's only about 1200 meters, but here the hand-held mortar is designed for a kilometer
  28. 0
    8 October 2025 15: 15
    Surely, Soviet arsenals still have 50mm company mortars of the 1938/40 model. They could be distributed to assault units for now; it's better than nothing, and it's not a problem to set up production of 50mm mortars...
    1. 0
      12 October 2025 16: 41
      Why do you need a 50mm mortar if you have an underbarrel grenade launcher and an AGS?
      The mortar was removed from service during the war and was melted down long ago.
  29. -1
    29 December 2025 10: 02
    Can anyone remind me of the standard underbarrel grenade launcher caliber? Why did the Yankees first switch to the 60 caliber? They switched to it when they were fighting the Japanese in the jungle. Back then, everyone had about 80 caliber. It's just that the difference in the number of fragments between an 82-mm mortar and a 60-mm mortar isn't that different. The underbarrel grenade launcher seems to have 24 fragments, while a 60-mm mortar has 24 fragments, I don't know, but I don't think it's significantly more. So why bother with range? Get an RPG-7, mount a mortar instead of a grenade, and satisfy your natural needs.
  30. 0
    30 December 2025 15: 34
    What if you look for a Shamarin mortar from 1941 in warehouses? 10 kg, 50 mm caliber.
  31. PXL
    0
    9 February 2026 14: 12
    Motovilikha Plants PJSC went bankrupt in 2025. It was replaced by SKB JSC, which was recently renamed Motovilikha Plants JSC. This was done because the company celebrated its 290th anniversary this spring. Putin visited the plant last December. He was shown many "new" products, but none of them were the MZ-217! The Sarma MLRS, for example, is supposedly a necessary product, even though it was manufactured five years ago. The Smolka is a trivial item, and there's no ammo for it yet. So, IMHO, it won't be mass-produced at least at Moz.