The BMP I would take into battle

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The BMP I would take into battle

Over three years of medium-intensity military operations in Ukraine, the idea of ​​creating a heavy infantry fighting vehicle (HIFV) has become increasingly popular in public opinion. Let's try to understand what this idea and its embodiment in metal will give the Armed Forces and what will have to be abandoned, how the logistical and budgetary features of maintaining and using units and subdivisions in peacetime and in combat will change, what role the heavy IFV will have to take on on the battlefield.

Немного stories with a touch of the economic potential of the country we lost. The BMP-1 was created in the era of the ideas of “La Manchism” with the prospect, if necessary, of “washing soldiers’ boots in the Indian Ocean.” The vehicle was produced from 1966 to 1983 in quantities of more than 20. From 1968 to 1991, more than 10 2S1 Gvozdika self-propelled guns were produced. But the apogee of militarism probably became танк T-72 in quantities of about 30 thousand in the period from 1973 to 2005 (five tanks in two days in peacetime).



The correctness of the conclusion is far from universal “approval”, but on the front line the number of 122- and 125-mm guns was twice as high as the number of BMP-1s with a weak 73-mm smoothbore gun, which were supposed to clear the breakthrough area after the artillery preparation and tank strike that followed the use of tactical nuclear weapons. weapons. There was nothing similar in the 13-ton BMP-1 weight category in the world or in the armies of the potential enemy at that time, except for the German HS.30 APC (14,6 tons) with a 20-mm cannon and the American M113 APC (10,91 tons) with a 12,7-mm machine gun.

The first to react, five years later, was the gloomy German genius, beaten in WWII and sensitively keeping his nose to the wind. Relying on the network of autobahns and traditionally giving preference to good armor, the Germans did not bother with amphibious capabilities and built the Marder IFV, immediately stepping into the 28,2-ton weight category. But German gunsmiths with vast military experience realized the futility of the Soviet 73-mm smoothbore gun with a firing range of up to 1,3 kilometers and a subsonic muzzle velocity of 290 m/s (it flew to the specified range in about 5 seconds).

And in 1970, the Marder IFV was released with an excellent 20-mm automatic cannon Rheinmetall Mk 20 Rh-202 (firing range on ground targets 2,5 km; muzzle velocity of the projectile 1044 m/s). Even based on hindsight, the author does not quite understand this choice, because already in those years the German military-industrial complex had access to the 35-mm Oerlikon KDA cannon (we know it better as part of the ZSU Gepard, which entered service with the Bundeswehr in 1973). With such a weapon, the heavy Marder 1A3 IFV (weight 33,5 tons) would be relevant to this day. A total of 1969 Marder IFVs were produced from 1975 to 2136, of which 55 units of the 1A3 model were delivered to Ukraine.

France began to create IFVs for its army after the first serial BMP-1 vehicles appeared in the Soviet army. The AMX-10R IFV can be called a BMP-1 clone in an aluminum hull. They were slowly produced from 1972 to 1994 (1750 units) and sold to allies (for example, Saudi Arabia - 570 units, why would the Saudis need a floating IFV?). But the French installed the gun under the same type of 20x139-mm cartridge as the Germans.

The US M2 Bradley infantry fighting vehicle was created in the second half of the 1970s, taking into account the combat experience of the Soviet BMP-1, the design features of the German Marder IFV as a better protected and armed replacement for the M113 armored personnel carriers. Adopted into service in 1981, the M2 Bradley IFV was not overweight (22,3 tons), it was as much as ten tons lighter than the latest model of the German vehicle and at the same time more than seven tons heavier than the new Soviet BMP-2 vehicle (14,7 tons), adopted by the SA on 15.10.1980.

A brief but informative excursion into the history of the creation of the IFV can be supplemented by another fact confirming the importance of the concept of using weapons adopted by the state and the Armed Forces as a whole. Since 1972, another "air IFV" appeared in the USSR - the Mi-24 attack helicopter, nicknamed "Crocodile". The machine with a crew of three people could deliver a landing force of eight fully equipped fighters, and the ammunition lifted into the air significantly exceeded the ammunition of the main tank. The helicopter's armor made of bulletproof glass and add-on metal armor plates protected the crew cabin, engines and the most critical elements of the design from large-caliber machine gun bullets.

The experience of the Arab-Israeli war of 1973 and the Soviet war in Afghanistan showed that the armored hull of the BMP-1 could not withstand hits from 12,7 mm bullets in the sides, and a hit from an RPG anti-tank grenade, as a rule, caused the vehicle to catch fire followed by an explosion of ammunition. Contact with anti-tank mines also led to fatal consequences. Thus, the "chariot of nuclear Armageddon", designed and built according to the concept of a light combat armored vehicle, became a revolutionary breakthrough in the post-war armament of ground forces, but at the same time it did not correspond to the realities of conventional conflicts in the last quarter of the 20th century. A series of international SALT and START treaties somewhat cooled the heat of the nuclear arms race. And now our contemporaries, such simple guys as Seryozhka from Malaya Bronnaya and Vitka from Makhova, really need something different.

Twenty years have passed since the appearance of the infantry fighting vehicle as a class of combat vehicles. In 1987, the USSR adopted the third model of the BMP. Germany is armed with the Marder BMP, stopped their production and switched its efforts to modernizing the vehicles. At the peak of Gorbachev's perestroika and disarmament, the American military-industrial complex improves and produces new modifications of the Bradley BMP. With the withdrawal of Soviet troops from Eastern Europe, the British create their FV510 Warrior BMP and the neutral Swedes design the Strf90. Ahead are conflicts in the Balkans and the Middle East, the Iran-Iraq War and in Kuwait, the Chechen campaigns ... But has the concept of using the BMP-3 changed in a quarter of a century and have the requirements for an infantry fighting vehicle changed?

It cannot be said that nothing has changed. Aluminum armor and a new powerful engine, a new layout and weapons system, the ground clearance has been increased once again and water cannons have appeared. But everything is the same:

"The BMP-3 is a Soviet and Russian combat armored tracked vehicle designed to transport personnel to the front line, increase their mobility, armament and protection on the battlefield in conditions of the use of nuclear weapons and joint actions with tanks in combat."

Already then, in the mid-80s, advanced military science began developing an unconventional combat vehicle, the Terminator. Yes, by and large the fate of this vehicle is still unclear, but there is an attempt to change the concept of conducting combined arms combat using new tools. The latest version of the Terminator is not inferior in weight and protection to modern versions of Russian main battle tanks, although initially it even surpassed them in these parameters.

The special military operation in Ukraine, mind you, not even a war, forces us to reconsider the concept of using and building an infantry fighting vehicle. In order to create something relevant not for a season, but for the future, we will have to objectively rethink what we have created, recognizing the shortcomings and achievements, study the development trends and world experience and correctly assess the potential enemy in the future theater of military operations. Further, the selection of arguments, the evidence base and the methodology for solving non-obvious problems represent only the personal vision of the problems inspired by the author.

First of all, it is necessary to decide on the weight category of the proposed heavy infantry fighting vehicle. The abstract Russian main battle tank has reached a psychological and symbolic limit in the modern era at about 50 tons with industrial and home-made modifications to protection, starting from additional dynamic protection, installation of various active protection options, non-standard EW systems and ending with various "barbecues". Judging by the experience of using Western-made heavy tanks in Ukraine, it is unlikely that there will be supporters of further growth of the Russian main battle tank's weight beyond 50 tons.

On the other hand, the relatively new wheeled BTR-82A, with an initial weight of 15,4 tons, firstly, surpasses the first and second models of the IFV in this parameter, which may indirectly indicate some better protection for the crew and troops with comparable weapons and mobility, and secondly, against the background of foreign analogues, it remains one of the lightest. One of the latest examples, the Finnish BTR "Patria" 6x6 in the basic configuration retains the ability to swim up to a weight of 21,5 tons, and the reinforced version increases this parameter by 2 tons. In other words, if the weight of a tank is conditionally limited to 50 tons, then for the BTR class, a limit of 20 tons is quite acceptable. Thus, the golden mean for the Russian TBMP can be taken as a weight limit of 35 tons.

This average weight category of the general table of ranks will allow and require the development of an independent concept for the creation and use of IFVs. In this weight category, it will be necessary to flatly abandon the amphibious nature of the vehicle and parachute landing. Let the newly created airborne (or more precisely, airmobile) divisions and marine divisions overcome water boundaries and land on the sea coast. Existing units are not deprived of combat equipment and weapons adapted for this. Ground forces will not lose any of their combat capabilities if, with the gradual withdrawal of the BMP-1 and BMP-2, floating armored personnel carriers of the weight category up to 20 tons are put into service. But the appearance of heavy IFVs with the appropriate protection, mobility and firepower will allow company commanders to depend less on interaction with tanks and artillery.

In order to create something new, necessary and effective, it would be a good idea to first define the evaluation criteria and customer requirements. It is proposed to digitize the quality of the machine to compare it with similar samples, abandoning the impersonal criterion of "satisfactory and unsatisfactory". The basis is the simplest formula of three components, each of which represents the relationship of interrelated specific characteristics of the machine.

The relations in the formula are applied with the sign of influence on the combat characteristics of the vehicle directly proportional or inversely proportional. These are the widely known: specific power (hp/t), the higher its value, the better the acceleration characteristics of the vehicle, its mobility on the battlefield, the speed of movement - a direct relationship; specific ground pressure (kg/cm2), the higher the value, the worse the off-road performance - an inverse relationship.

The third ratio will be unusual - specific armor (t/m), where the combat weight of the vehicle is traditionally measured in tons, but the perimeter is measured in meters, that is, the doubled value of the sum of the length and width of the object. I will not reveal the truth if I remind you that the armor of the vehicle is usually located exactly along the perimeter of the vehicle, somewhere thicker, somewhere thinner. The armor of the bottom and upper projection of the vehicle is usually uniform and much inferior in specific weight to the frontal and side projection, and in general for the vehicle they can be accepted as uniformly distributed along the perimeter. The only confusion is that each individual ratio has a weight category.

Having decided on the weight category, the next logical step would be to discuss the overall dimensions of the future TBMP. From the table below, it is clear that if you compare the BMP-3 and M2A1 Bradley contemporaries, it is easy to notice that the perimeter of the domestic vehicle is 1,5 meters larger than that of the American. Here, the influence of a long-standing template is felt: the desire to minimize the area of ​​the frontal silhouette of the vehicle, which traditionally has the best armor protection both due to the thickness of the armor and due to the choice of optimal angles of its inclination according to the version of the developers of the Soviet school of tank building.

The second component of the silhouette of both the frontal and side projections and secondary in importance is always the height of the vehicle, but it is the same for both sides of the protection consideration. Purely theoretically, if we increase the weight of the BMP-3 by four tons due to the increase in armor (which, in fact, is done when installing ERA and additional armor screens) and equalize the weight with the Bradley, then still, due to the larger perimeter, our vehicle will be inferior to the American one in terms of specific armor. Therefore, we must conclude that the new vehicle needs to reconsider the length-to-width ratio. Of all the weapons in the table, the length-to-width ratio is greater than that of the BMP-3 only in the ancestor of the BMP-1 class, which is indirectly confirmed by the lowest specific armor value.

After coordination with the railway workers, the width of domestic main battle tanks has been increased along the tracks to zero oversize, which is 3450 mm. Without running into the maximum permissible parameters of the railways, we will limit ourselves to choosing the width of the heavy IFV along the tracks to 3400 millimeters. Theoretically, this will allow "packing" two vehicles into the cargo cabin of the Il-76MD-90A transporter. At the same time, in order to prevent the perimeter from growing higher than that of the BMP-3, we will voluntarily and forcibly reduce the length of the vehicle to 7 meters. Thus, in terms of specific armor, the new TBMP will be inferior only to the latest German fresh product!


Taking the honorable second place in specific armor, losing only to last year's German newcomer with a combat weight of 44 tons, in this particular case does not even look like a defeat. But on the battlefield and in the frontline zone, our vehicle will flutter like a butterfly thanks to the excellent specific power of 34,2 horsepower per ton of live weight! Where does such agility come from? Well, it is indecent to keep domestic developments on the engine for the Armata platform under wraps for several years. The Russian four-stroke diesel engine 12N360 in the simplest version of the A-85-3A model range with a capacity of only 1200 hp.


Once upon a time, they were not afraid to introduce gas turbine engines on tanks, two-stroke opposed diesel engines were less successful, why not test a 12-cylinder four-stroke X-shaped diesel in one block with an automatic transmission on a new heavy infantry fighting vehicle? By the way, an automatic transmission is already used on the main tank T-90 MS, which has already conditionally crossed the red line of the 50-ton weight category, and continues to operate the next "improved version" of the 12-cylinder V-shaped diesel V-92S2F2 with a capacity of 1130 hp.

Let's try to reasonably justify the use of a new engine on a heavy infantry fighting vehicle. Firstly, the layout of the new heavy infantry fighting vehicle assumes an unconventional engine location. The combined power unit of the engine and automatic transmission is located in the center of the armored hull under the remotely controlled weapon module (RCWM). The width of the ring for installing the RCWM is provided at 2005 millimeters, which corresponds to an opening area of ​​3,15 square meters. The A-85-3A diesel, with its compact dimensions (length - 81,3 cm; width - 130 cm; height - 82 cm), is smaller in volume even than its two-stroke brother - the famous 6TD2, and even less than the V-92S2F2.

It is known from available sources that the Leclerc tank engine can be replaced within 30 minutes. Let's assume that the same operation on a heavy infantry fighting vehicle will take 1,5 hours, of which 45 minutes will be spent on dismantling and returning the combat module to its place. But this will be significant progress, considering that replacing the engine on a T-72 takes experienced technicians up to 10 hours. Secondly, as can be seen from the table, the record-breaking specific power of the vehicle is guaranteed to provide superiority in speed both on the battlefield and on public roads, which will result in a tactical advantage for both an individual crew and the unit as a whole.

The speed characteristics of the vehicle, which will be comparable to the now popular motorcycles, quad bikes and buggies, combined with armor protection provided by 35 tons of metal and firepower at the level of a light tank, combined with unrivaled cross-country ability will provide assault units with depth and surprise in breaking through enemy defenses with minimal losses. Thirdly, it is due to the compactness and power of the new engine that it becomes possible to create an infantry fighting vehicle capable of providing a degree of protection for the crew and troops at the level of the best analogues of a potential enemy and equip it with a weapons system capable of withstanding all existing types of weapons on the modern battlefield.

Now let's take a closer look at the chassis and hull of the heavy IFV. The use of an engine that is more powerful than all serial models of domestic tank building will obviously require the chassis of the new vehicle to be no less durable and reliable than on the main tanks in order to maximize the achievable speed characteristics and unique cross-country ability. In order not to waste funding on developing a chassis from scratch, as a new model of armored vehicles, in the conditions of the military economy, it is proposed to creatively approach the solution to the problem, using, if possible, serially produced and mastered by military-industrial complex units and parts of the existing main tanks T-80 and T-90.

The 172.55.010sb-2 track with increased service life and traction properties, parallel rubber-metal hinges (RMSh), with stamped tracks, developed during the R&D "Ramka-99" (BMPT) is an excellent choice as a propeller. Since the TBMP will be significantly lighter than either of the two main tanks, reasonable weight savings should only be welcomed. As the first and sixth road wheels on each side, we will use regular road wheels (not reinforced) from the T-90 with a diameter of 755 millimeters and a weight of 194 kilograms. At positions 2-3-4-5, we will install road wheels from the T-80 with a diameter of 670 mm and a weight of 120 kg. This unusual combination allows the overall weight of the chassis to be slightly lightened and the rolling resistance of the tracked drive as a whole to be somewhat reduced by increasing the diameter of the first and last road wheels, as on the British Valentine tank.


For the same reasons, we select 14-tooth drive wheels and guides, although the latter can be unified with the road wheels from the T-80, following the example of the Leopard-1 tank. We install all twelve relatively short torsion bars from the T-80 on the relatively narrow hull of the BMP, despite the fact that they are heavier and more expensive than the torsion bars of the T-90. But we save on the price of four hydraulic shock absorbers and six support rollers from the T-90. The rockers on the inner road wheels are native, but for the outer ones, apparently, new ones will have to be made due to different mounting holes on the torsion bars. Such a combination of existing components and units from different types of tanks allows us to create a chassis for the BMP that is approximately 500 kilograms lighter than any of the aforementioned tank models, and with a minimal expansion of the range of new elements.

The hull of the heavy IFV is very close to the BMP-3 in terms of linear dimensions and perimeter. This is where the similarities end, because the layout, material and manufacturing technology are completely different. If armor plates of five to seven denominations of different thicknesses were used to build the hulls of previous generations of vehicles, then only four are used in the new vehicle. Without belittling the merits of aluminum armor and the advantages of spaced combined armor, as well as the hype in the advertising campaign from promoting such high-tech products, let's not forget about the "cost-effectiveness" criterion.

If the Soviet Union could afford to release tens of thousands of BMP-1/-2, then modern Russia currently has only about five hundred BMP-3 vehicles of various modifications. But the United Arab Emirates (UAE) purchased 390 vehicles, tiny Kuwait went broke on 225 units, and even poor Venezuela acquired 123 units... In 2019, the price of one BMP-3 was 85 rubles. At the same time, according to military analyst Henry Shlottman, the export cost of the BMP-944 is $658, while the BMP-3 is only $1. So maybe it is better to have four BMP-100s on the battlefield instead of one BMP-000? Therefore, the hull of the TBMP will be steel, and its rigidity will not suffer in any way due to the design and layout.



Armament. After half a century, it has become generally accepted that the BMP-1's armament with a smoothbore 73-mm gun is a weakness. However, in the recent sensational comparison of the BMP-3 with the Bradley IFV, the armament complex of the domestic vehicle was presented as almost the only real advantage over the product of the American military-industrial complex. In my opinion, the rifled 100-mm gun/launcher 2A70 does not have any fundamental advantages over the 2A28 Grom gun and its extended version 2A41 Zarnitsa, except for those that are attached to the increased caliber by definition.

The latter, with a light hint from Wikipedia, is not called a smoothbore gun at all, but a smoothbore semi-automatic grenade launcher. Nowadays, the effectiveness of 100-mm guided anti-tank projectiles from the BMP-3 ammunition against modern tanks is significantly inferior to the 152-mm American ATGM BGM-71F TOW IIB, and the possibilities for modernization are limited by the same caliber of the gun/launcher. And only thanks to the creative combination of two guns of 100 and 30 mm calibers with a rifle-caliber machine gun in one turret, the high rating of our machine is maintained.

The fact that the BMP-3 armament system, developed in the early eighties of the last century, will have to be recognized as obsolete and gradually losing relevance on the modern battlefield, is evidenced by facts that are difficult to ignore. There are already versions of a deep modernization of the vehicle under the names "Dragoon" and "Manul". Indirectly, this is confirmed by the developments based on the BMP-3 chassis "Derivation-Defense" and "Sprut-SDM1". The first emphasizes the weakness of the declared capabilities of both individual vehicles and motorized infantry units to counter modern air threats, and the second - about the need for support in the fight against modern tanks, although it is still believed that the BMP-3 weapons system is still capable of confidently mitigating emerging threats. The only good news is that in both cases, the designers see the achievement of greater efficiency in increasing the caliber of the guns: 57 mm in air defense and 125 mm in anti-tank defense.

Let's approach the approach to choosing the armament of a heavy IFV from afar. There is a contradictory drawing available on the Internet with a detailed image of the BMP-1 armor, but a comparison of the armor penetration of the guns of the BMP "Marder" and BMP-2 (the same gun is installed on the BMD-3 and BMPT "Terminator").


If we are to believe the graphic information in the drawing, the shells of the Western gun in seven cases out of eight variants have better armor penetration indicators in comparison with domestic ammunition. The second disappointing conclusion is the assertion that the BMP-1 at a distance of less than 1000 meters has no armor at all that would prevent penetration of the hull and turret by 20-mm armor-piercing shells.

Judging by the specific armor parameter, the BMP-2 is not far from its predecessor in terms of protection. And there is information that the M242 gun on the Bradley IFV with a 25-mm armor-piercing sub-caliber projectile is capable of penetrating 75 mm of homogeneous armor at a right angle. And if we believe some experts that the better accuracy of the M242 gun in comparison with the 2A42 is achieved due to its greater weight, rigid mount, thicker barrel, the use of an electric drive instead of a gas bleed, and the installation of a muzzle brake, then it becomes clear that the very concept of arming the BMP-3 with a 100-mm gun/launcher with a 30-mm 2A72 cannon (inferior in some parameters to the 2A42 cannon) requires updating and replacement. The Russian Ministry of Defense is also forced to acknowledge this fact, as in 2020 it began upgrading the BMP-2 to the BMP-2M level by installing the Berezhok universal combat module (B05Ya01), which can also be installed on the BMP-3 chassis.


The Berezhok complex consists of (the combat kit is given in brackets): 30-mm automatic cannon 2A42 (500 rounds); 30-mm automatic grenade launcher AGS-17 in the rear part of the turret (300 rounds); 7,62-mm machine gun PKT (2 rounds); guided weapons (000 ATGM "Kornet") - all this was very relevant for the Algerian Armed Forces 4 years ago!

When creating and arming a new heavy infantry fighting vehicle for the future RF Ground Forces, we must remember that, starting with the Bradley IFV, all Western armor models are designed to withstand the Soviet 2A42 automatic cannon. The option of increasing the firepower of the BMP-3 by installing a Baikal combat module with a 57-mm rifled gun was considered. But this was the middle of the last century, because the new gun is supposed to fire ammunition from the 1953 model! In addition, 40 years ago, the Germans also considered the option of upgrading the Marder IFV with a 57-mm gun.


In the article "Universal MPC or anti-submarine corvette" the author already touched upon the topic of creating a new 75-mm gun for the Navy and its unification with the ground forces and the Russian Aerospace Forces. The main reason is the lagging characteristics of the ammunition of the AK-726 and AK-176 naval artillery mounts, developed and adopted for service fleet in the 60s of the last century, from modern analogues of Western countries. Russia already has experience in inter-species unification of weapons, it is dictated and requires implementation in life by the economy and logistics of a warring country.


If we remember that it is mid-2025, we can confidently assume the reason for the indifference of the Armed Forces service command to the initiative developments of the 57-millimeter gun industry, and, most likely, this can be explained by the lack of progress in the development of modern, in-demand, high-tech ammunition that could clearly demonstrate the advantages of the new system over the existing ones. Therefore, it is proposed to begin the development of a new inter-service artillery system of 75 mm caliber with the selection and definition of the nomenclature and characteristics of the ammunition used. The initial ammunition load of the 75-mm TBMP gun should include, first of all, conventional high-explosive fragmentation shells, in quantity they will surpass the programmable (air) detonation ammunition of the English abbreviation AHEAD and close the minimum necessary trinity for TBMP subcaliber armor-piercing shells with a uranium core.


Thanks to the easy submission of political scientist V.R. Solovyov, the thesis that we must fight with modern weapons, not legendary ones, became popular. The naval artillery mounts from the table are quite modern and in demand by the fleets of different countries, and in the future they may even receive the status of legendary. But the Soviet anti-aircraft gun and the German tank have long been legendary. In the table, they are combined as examples of weapons of 75-76 mm caliber with outstanding characteristics for their time. And our attempt to create a gun for TBMP should absorb all the best from world experience.

It is impossible not to mention the T-15 heavy infantry fighting vehicle, which has become a “legend”, first shown at the Victory Parade in 2015. Weighing 55 tons, the vehicle’s armament with a 57-mm automatic cannon causes a feeling of discomfort, as if the BRDM-2’s main armament was a 5,45-mm machine gun! There were hopes that the automatic cannon and 2-4 ATGMs, either Kornet or Ataka, would be able to combat air targets and main battle tanks… The planned range was up to 500 km and a fuel reserve of more than two cubic meters – why this gigantomania?

The concept of armament of the TBMP should be designed for a quick decisive throw, conducting a short combat clash with any possible enemy, in which victory is ensured by the ultimate superiority of the characteristics of the weapon and the speed of its use, and an equally rapid retreat behind stationary protected positions to help evacuated wounded soldiers, replenish ammunition and fuel supplies.

What attack aircraft now “perform” on motorcycles and buggies without armor protection and with portable ammunition, without a large-caliber machine gun, without an automatic grenade launcher, without an ATGM and MANPADS, should take place under the cover of the armor of a TBMP and with the provision of fire destruction of threats that suddenly appear or are detected along the route. Two threes or three twos of paratroopers should enter the battle not exhausted on the route, and even having received concussions or wounds when approaching the enemy in a wide gray zone. The vehicle crew is four professional people capable of using the combat capabilities of the vehicle and weapons to the maximum: a driver-mechanic, a DUBM operator, an operator of a reconnaissance and attack UAV, a commander.


The main armament of the new TBMP is a 75-mm automatic cannon with a high initial velocity and muzzle energy of the projectile. It should be optimized for maximum efficiency to combat any targets at a range of up to 2-3 kilometers. The vertical guidance angle should be limited to -5 to +25 degrees. With an inclined range of 2,4 km, the destruction of an air target can be ensured up to an altitude of 1000 meters, and this, by the way, is the border between low and medium altitudes according to air defense concepts, and we should not take away bread from the units of the army air defense by increasing the height of the TBMP's DUBM turret and deteriorating the accuracy characteristics.

In this case, it is preferable to introduce the Verba MANPADS into the vehicle's ammunition load. In addition, at ranges above three kilometers, it is much more expedient to use the Ataka ATGM with supersonic flight speed on the route. To finally close the topic of the TBMP air defense, we will open a certain intrigue of its armament. Along with the large-caliber gun, twin large-caliber Kord machine guns will be installed on the left and right, and the landing force on the route will use two automatic shotguns to prevent attacks drones, which will be included in the vehicle's ammunition and stored in a box on the roof of the troop compartment. Anticipating a question from fans of creating a universal miracle weapon for all occasions of army life: how to conduct combat operations in the mountains and during the assault on high-rise urban development? At least mid-level commanders should have enough common sense not to send TBMPs into mountain gorges and passes, and to fire at buildings up to 200 meters high (if anyone encounters such) from a distance of no closer than half a kilometer!

The maximum technical rate of fire of the gun is limited to 15 rounds per minute. Four seconds is enough for the automatic system to return the spent cartridge case from the previous unitary cartridge to the ammunition rack, rotate it according to the selected type of projectile for the next shot, feed the cartridge and close the gun breech. During this time, the vibrations of the barrel and the machine as a whole from the impact of the recoil of the previous shot will disappear, the operator will be able to evaluate its results and make the necessary adjustments or begin retargeting the gun at another object.

Theoretically, the 2A42 gun from the Berezhok module can empty two ammunition belts in a minute to run out of ready-to-fire ammunition for the Kinzhal module, this period of time is also enough. Moreover, the weight of the ammunition for 30-mm shells is slightly more than 400 kg, and the ammo pack of 57-mm shells already exceeds 525 kg. The compact carousel ammunition rack for the 75-mm gun, which fits into the 2005 mm diameter turret ring of a heavy infantry fighting vehicle, can accommodate 30-32 shells of various purposes. And these can even be shells similar to the German model with a flange diameter of the case up to 125 mm. The figure schematically and proportionally shows the ammunition rack for 16 shells.


The author prefers a 30-unit ammo pack with a total weight of less than 375 kg and a technical rate of fire that will provide a two-minute fire cycle. This solution will eliminate cases where the BMP-3 is loaded with only shells in the automated ammunition stowage (22 pcs.) for assault operations, leaving empty space for a transportable ammunition supply of another 18 shells to avoid their detonation in the event of a mine explosion.

If the main armament of the BMP is a 75-mm gun, then the auxiliary armament can be conventionally called two 12,7-mm machine guns 6P49 and 6P51 "Kord" - tank machine guns with right- and left-hand feeding. With almost the same initial bullet velocities in comparison with the traditional twin PKTM machine gun, the energy of a large-caliber bullet is five times higher than a rifle-caliber bullet. At a distance of 600 meters, this advantage is even more impressive: the flight speed of a large-caliber bullet is 150 m/s higher, and its energy is already nine times higher.

The list of targets that can be hit by a large-caliber machine gun, and especially a pair, is much wider than that of a rifle-caliber machine gun, and the guarantee of hitting is higher. Two such twin assistants will make life much easier for the crew and will allow saving ammunition for the main gun and its resource. It is quite reasonable to limit the ammunition for each barrel to five hundred rounds (the total weight of the ammo is about 135 kg). With two machine guns paired with the main gun, equipped with an electric trigger, it becomes possible to try out the option of firing each barrel in turn while maintaining the nominal rate of fire, like one machine gun. This will solve the problem of overheating of the barrels, which was warned about in advance by concerned readers.


The Internet occasionally sparks debates about the advisability of installing so-called course machine guns in the front of the vehicles on tracked shelves on IFVs. The author will join the supporters of these autonomous installations with PKT machine guns. The presence of four crew members of the TBMP assumes the expansion of their functionality in various combat conditions with the possibility of duplicating duties, including in the control of weapons, reconnaissance and communications.

For example, the driver and the UAV operator in the front row of the control compartment can equally control either their own machine gun mount on board, or each in turn, the coupled system of two machine guns at once. In extreme cases, when they are both loaded, they are set to the stop in the marching position, the machine guns turn into course guns and can be used for firing by the driver-mechanic only when convenient. Also, the UAV operator and the vehicle commander located behind him can, if necessary, intercept control of the "bird" or ATGM from each other. Of course, control of the turret armament is duplicated between the DUBM operator and the commander.

Returning to the autonomous machine gun mounts, the TBMP has the ability to expand the firing angles due to the use of 580 mm wide tank tracks on the vehicle (on the BMP-3 this value is 380 mm), and therefore wider fenders of the hull. In the combat position, the machine guns on the BMP-3 have depression and elevation angles of -5 and +15 degrees, respectively, in the horizontal plane the firing angles are: towards the side 5, from the side 30 degrees. On the TBMP, without changing the vertical angles, we expand the horizontal angles towards the side to 8 degrees and away from the side to 34 degrees. The ammunition load of the machine guns is 2000 rounds per barrel.

The main caliber of the remote-controlled combat module of the heavy infantry fighting vehicle will be four 130-mm controlled missiles "Attack". A wide range of modifications of both the missiles themselves and their warheads ensure reliable destruction of enemy heavy armored vehicles using a tandem cumulative warhead (which is not available on the BMP-3), the destruction of fortified firing points and defensive structures is guaranteed by the use of a combined warhead - high-explosive and volume-detonating action (the accuracy of the guided projectile is higher than that of the 100-mm OFS BMP-3); a modification of the missile with a rod warhead for destruction of aircraft is relevant at a range of up to 7 km (inaccessible to the air defense systems of the BMP-3). The missiles are located in pairs in the armored volume of the module's turret.

Having conducted an unbiased comparison of the anti-tank capabilities of the BMP-3 and new TBMP weapons systems, preference should be given to the combination of long-range supersonic cumulative ATGM "Ataka" and the irresistible power at short combat distances of sub-caliber shells with a uranium core of the 75-mm gun on the new vehicle. In combination with better armor protection with comparable dimensions and superior mobility and cross-country ability, the vehicle can claim priority equipment for assault units of the Ground Forces.


To form the final conceptual appearance of the new heavy IFV, let's put the finishing touches. For all three types of domestic IFVs, the cruising range is defined as 600 kilometers. To understand what this is and where it goes from here to where, I will give specific figures: the distance from Sevastopol to Donetsk by road is 622 km, and in a straight line - 502 km. Of course, I am wildly surprised, but would anyone in real life really plan a combat operation with the transfer of any of these tracked vehicles under its own power over such a distance!

In order to save the armored space of the TBMP and increase the vehicle's resistance to fire, we will limit the cruising range to 300 km (the distance from Sevastopol to Melitopol is 326 km along the highway, and 289 km in a straight line). This solution correlates well with a similar characteristic of the T-80 tank, which is considered "gluttonous" (the cruising range on the highway is 350 km, on rough terrain - 250 km). That is, when tanks and TBMPs operate together, the logistics will be almost the same. The specific fuel consumption of the 12N360 engine is slightly, but less than that of the UTD-29 engine of the BMP-3.

If you paid attention to the drawings of the chassis and hull of the TBMP, you should have noticed that the fuel supply is partially located outside the armored hull. Four tanks with a capacity of 30 liters each are located between the support rollers in the space between the side and the small-diameter road wheels. This was made possible by the large width of the tank track. The total volume, of course, is not impressive, but for primary consumption when moving to the line of combat contact, it will save fuel behind the armor, and in terms of an additional obstacle when a cumulative projectile hits, it will play a certain role.

The relative reduction in the ammunition load and the vehicle’s power reserve will require more frequent contacts with combat units from the support units, weapons services and rear services. In this regard, it makes sense to think about creating universal transport and loading vehicles that could not only supply fuel and lubricants separately, ammunition separately, and technical assistance separately, but also try to comprehensively provide all elements of technical and rear maintenance at points of contact. The issue of transferring units armed with heavy infantry fighting vehicles over long distances will need to be considered separately. If strategic redeployments are traditionally provided by the navy, the railway and heavy military transport aviation, then in operational and tactical terms it will be necessary to create units or subdivisions with special equipment and infrastructure that have a dual purpose with a commercial component.


Such simple, economical and reliable vehicles should appear for a much more massive and somewhat larger IFV. In addition to combat vehicles, such equipment will easily ensure the delivery of goods in standard 20-foot containers with maximum load or modular equipment based on them.
186 comments
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  1. + 46
    30 August 2025 04: 16
    But the apogee of militarism is probably the T-72 tank, in quantities of about 30 thousand.

    Where would we be now if the damned Soviet militarists had not left behind a huge amount of armor and chassis?
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    2. +7
      30 August 2025 07: 55
      I don’t know where we would be, but if it weren’t for the “damned Soviet militarists,” Ukrainian nationalist fighters would already be dragging some people, like their fellow Islamist fighters in Libya.
    3. -13
      30 August 2025 10: 48
      Where would we be now if the damned Soviet militarists had not left behind a huge amount of armor and chassis?

      In communism. bully
      We would sit like a big Switzerland with a bunch of money and hold the whole world by the trunk. Through the banks. wink
  2. + 17
    30 August 2025 04: 58
    Quote: paul3390
    Where would we be now if the damned Soviet militarists had not left behind a huge amount of armor and chassis?

    In the same place as Libya, Iraq, Syria. what
    For now, we are saved by several thousand Soviet nuclear weapons in the Motherland’s reserves.
    In modern combat conditions, IFVs are quickly knocked out with the help of FPV, artillery and minefields.
    This is clearly visible in the Ukrainian Armed Forces with American Bradleys.
    Consumable material. request
  3. +5
    30 August 2025 05: 32
    Thank you Andrey, great article. From the review I get the impression that the world is trying to marry an infantry fighting vehicle and a tank, so that it can carry infantry, deliver them to the battlefield and fight like a tank. The 57 mm cannon has its pros and cons. And its shells can be modernized. There was information that a 20-30 mm continuous burst in one place can penetrate the armor of a tank. The number of BMP-3s of 500 pieces for such a huge country as ours is indecently small. Each military district should have at least 1000 pieces. soldier
    1. +4
      30 August 2025 10: 09
      forces us to reconsider the concept of using and constructing an infantry fighting vehicle.

      A good and long article about nothing!
      The concept of using infantry fighting vehicles in modern combat?! But there is none. Our General Staff of the RF Armed Forces does not have a concept for conducting Modern Combat, even at the tactical level. All such talk and speculation are pointless. All new developments do not and cannot make sense. The leadership of the Russian Armed Forces has no idea about conducting Modern Warfare. Look at what the enemy has and stupidly copy it. The troops of unmanned systems are an example of this. And not only... There is not a single accepted concept of modern combat even at the tactical level since the collapse of the USSR.
      "Sharik, congratulations. You're a dunce!"
      1. +1
        30 August 2025 13: 34
        It seems to me that now the enemy often looks at the SVO and "stupidly copies" the solutions found on the battlefield. And of all the new developments (which, in the opinion of the author of the commentary) "don't make sense", some part will prove to be the most effective on the battlefield. And concepts, in my opinion, change not in the offices, but during battles (and subsequent comprehension already in the offices).
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    2. 0
      30 August 2025 14: 15
      Purely theoretically - yes. lol
    3. -3
      1 September 2025 11: 46
      we need an infantry fighting vehicle based on an inverted T-90 trailer and without a barbecue
      with a total 40mm armour of the bogie for 70 sq.m.:
      10mm steel 40mm aluminum 10mm steel = 300 kg 1 sq.m.
      cart, internal combustion engine, chassis = 30 tons, BM Baikal with 57-mm machine gun + 4 tons,
      2 layers of 50 mm ceramics between the DZ per 50 sq.m. 15 tons
      2 layers of DZ Relic, 40 kg per 50 sq.m. = 4 tons
      + 50 KAZ Afghanit mortars = 500 kg
      + 5 DPU for 12-mm smoothbore machine guns coupled with KAZ with BC for 400 (buckshot) rounds = 2000 shots / 4 of 500 FPV drones = 500 kg
      In total we get a heavy infantry fighting vehicle weighing 60 tons + an anti-mine trawl.
      in Mytishchi, assembly of 10 Tor-M2 air defense missile systems on one line takes 4 days (before SVO 7 days)
      Uralvagonzavod on 2 lines can produce up to 200 TBMP per month for 5 motorized rifle battalions, i.e. in 2 months = division
  4. +8
    30 August 2025 05: 42
    However, the emergence of heavy infantry fighting vehicles with appropriate protection, mobility and firepower will allow company commanders to be less dependent on interaction with tanks and artillery.

    The usual complaints about generals preparing for the last war. And here the author has some kind of immersion in the wars before last, where "interaction" is through messengers.
    ...revise the concept of using and building an infantry fighting vehicle. To create something relevant not just for the season, but for the future...
    ... glorifying his name throughout the centuries!
    That's what they create, everything is balanced and harmonious. Nothing to add or subtract, nothing to change (only throw away and make something new). And in war, quick decisions on a specific situation are valuable. And "additions to the terms of reference" (even to yourself) "so that it remains relevant for 40 years" ruins the speed of development.
    I haven't gotten through the entire text yet, but judging by the pictures, the author is making another [fatherly] attempt to cram an infantry squad into a light tank.
    1. +3
      30 August 2025 08: 00
      Quote: Dometer
      I haven't gotten through the entire text yet, but judging by the pictures, the author is making another [fatherly] attempt to cram an infantry squad into a light tank.

      Exactly. The 75mm semi-automatic monster will gobble up so much weight needed for other purposes that "it's a real shame". Two large-caliber machine guns also raise questions, one will be enough. The PKT course guns don't raise any questions - off with them!
      Otherwise, everything is quite good.
      1. +3
        30 August 2025 18: 49
        The 75mm gun accurately ensures the destruction of any modern and promising "light" Western equipment, which today approaches 40 tons in weight at any distance in any projection, this is a very popular feature! good
        In order not to take up space in the armored hull and not to bury the crew and troops with the explosion of the ammo, you can make a combat module in the manner of the AMX 13-75, in the niche of the turret. The ammo will of course not be 30 shells, but 12 or more pieces, but for short sorties, ambushes and work from closed positions it is quite enough. For other tasks, a 30 mm gun is quite enough. A twin gun mount may be in demand again, or maybe as the author suggests with machine guns, but I would prefer 30 mm.
        But the main thing that the author did not look at is the prospective battlefield. The SVO and other conflicts show that there is already a great need for various onboard electronic systems that require a lot of energy and the energy needs will only grow. The IFV must also provide itself with energy (onboard computers, radars, radars, charge drones, perhaps soldiers of the future will need to charge their equipment, some exoskeletons, perhaps onboard lasers for protection against UAVs, all sorts of AI on board). Conventional internal combustion engines are unlikely to provide so much energy, so the future most likely belongs to hybrids (generators and batteries).
        The hybrid installation eliminates the current vulnerability of modern technology to FPV drones, which primarily hit the internal combustion engine and immobilize the vehicle.
        A large crew is a controversial proposition today, perhaps a couple of crew members + AI to help and a troop compartment for 6 people maximum.
        Good speed, 155mm shrapnel armor and the ability to install DZ + barbecue.
        And the power reserve, the more the better, is not the ability to get from Sevastopol to Donetsk, but the longest possible autonomy!
        1. +3
          30 August 2025 19: 09
          Quote: Eroma
          The 75mm gun accurately ensures the destruction of any modern and promising "light" Western equipment, which today approaches 40 tons in weight at any distance in any projection, this is a very popular feature!

          Yes, but this leads down the vicious path of turning the IFV into a sub-tank-sub-IFV.
          Nowadays, large caliber is not needed to destroy "strong" armored targets. Want to knock them all down? Marry the BMP and the "Khrizantema".
          A full-fledged large-caliber (57-75) gun will require very powerful reinforcement of the hull, it will weigh quite a bit, + ammo. And why? Missiles with launchers are much lighter. In the "Bradley", in my opinion, the Americans took the right path. For infantry support 25-30 mm (with "good" shells), + KKP, + PKT. Armored vehicles at a distance are at the mercy of TOW ("Khrizantema", "Kornet"), at close range - as luck would have it (again, shells). The gain in weight is obvious.
          Quote: Eroma
          But the main thing that the author did not look at is the prospective battlefield. The SVO and other conflicts show that there is already a great need for various onboard electronic systems, which require a lot of energy and the need for energy will only grow.

          Here everything depends on the power of the "engine" and generator. Powerful batteries are certainly desirable, in case the internal combustion engine fails. The issue is solvable.
          Quote: Eroma
          And the power reserve, the more the better

          I agree, but within reasonable limits, without compromising other qualities.
          1. +1
            30 August 2025 21: 39
            Quote: Adrey
            Why? Rockets with launchers are much lighter.

            ATGM and gun are not interchangeable systems, but complementary. It is still more difficult to use ATGM effectively than a gun, and in most cases the gun is more effective. The reaction speed and rate of fire, the speed of transferring fire to other targets and the effectiveness of fire are less dependent on external conditions and, for example, at close range, ATGM is basically useless. For example, the famous battle of Alyosha's tank, he hit 9 targets with a gun in a couple of minutes, he would hardly have been able to do this with ATGMs in that situation.
            You are confusing the BMP and the APC, the APC's job is purely transport, and the BMP's purpose is to bring infantry and support it with fire! Therefore, if it is possible to install a gun, it is better to do so. Infantry support in the SVO is carried out from closed positions, the 75mm gun increases the firing range, and therefore the survivability of the BMP. And also, we can definitely make 75mm shells with remote detonation, which will further increase their effectiveness, our designers cannot make a 30mm shell, but they could make a 57mm one!
            Quote: Adrey
            Here everything depends on the power of the engine and generator.

            Prospective systems, such as lasers, are power in kW, only onboard GENERATORS will cope here, preferably 2. The batteries can be distributed in blocks outside the armored hull in their armored boxes and thus the power plant located along the perimeter of the machine, in addition to its main function, will also perform a protective function, as in aviation, when secondary units cover the main ones. It will be extremely difficult to immobilize such a machine!

            And regarding Bradley, this is a car from the end of the 20th century! It is no longer relevant to use it as an example!
            1. 0
              30 August 2025 21: 49
              Quote: Eroma
              The ATGM and the gun are not interchangeable systems, but complementary ones.

              Of course, but it all depends on the distance.
              Quote: Eroma
              For example, the famous battle of Alyosha's tank

              Bad example. A tank is a tank, it performed its MAIN function and it did it.
              Quote: Eroma
              You are confusing the BMP and the APC. The APC's job is purely transport, while the BMP's purpose is to transport infantry and support it with fire!

              I don't confuse. BThe MP should not be transformed into a tank or an assault self-propelled gun.
              Quote: Eroma
              Infantry support in the SVO is carried out from closed positions; the 75mm gun increases the firing range, and therefore the survivability of the IFV.

              If you need a mortar for support, take a mortar, if you need artillery, take artillery. No need to breed entities. The BMP should support its troops not from a trench while they are riding 0 on motorcycles, electric bicycles, electric scooters, but with direct fire from the available weapons. If it is not capable of doing this, it is anything but an BMP.
            2. 0
              30 August 2025 22: 11
              Quote: Eroma
              And more, we can definitely make 75mm shells with remote detonation, which will further increase their effectiveness, our designers cannot make a 30mm shell, but they could make a 57mm one!

              It's all from the devil. Yes, we can't have 30, but why 57 and not 40? Why? Just don't say that 57 shells are "like shit behind a bathhouse." Old shots are old and will be like "a saddle on a cow" to a new artillery system with remote detonation. We'll have to develop a new gun-shell complex anyway. So what difference does it make what caliber? If we can't have 30, let it be 40. But why 57 with its crazy recoil and weight?
              1. +1
                30 August 2025 22: 13
                This is just an example of what our engineers were able to do. They were able to do 57mm and 125mm, but they can't do 30mm. Therefore, any gun from 57mm and above can count on shells with remote detonation.
                1. 0
                  30 August 2025 22: 15
                  Quote: Eroma
                  Therefore, any gun from 57 mm and above can be equipped with shells with remote detonation.

                  See the post above. Can't we do 40 either? Well, for God's sake, 45, 50 (although 50 is too much).
                  All the same, completely different shots will be required. You can make your own artillery system for them.
                  1. 0
                    30 August 2025 22: 36
                    What don't you like about large caliber? Weight? AMX-13-75 had a gun from Panther and weight 13t! A slightly oversized machine, in which instead of ammo in the stern, a troop compartment for 6 fighters, will be in the region of 20t, with good mobility, inexpensive, with a modern protection system. In modern conditions, a 75mm gun does not affect other characteristics of the machine at all and by the way, the cost is also not that much, but this is a 75mm armor-piercing gun, any houses through! The distance to the target is 3 km without problems! ANY IFV or light tank without problems or even the side of any main battle tank, also without problems, and from a distance of 2 km!
                    All pros, where are the cons?
                    1. 0
                      30 August 2025 22: 39
                      Quote: Eroma
                      What don't you like about large caliber? Weight? AMX-13-75 had a gun from Panther and weighed 13 tons!

                      Could you please specify the armor of this device? And how well it was used in the Arab-Jewish wars? And where is it now?
                      Quote: Eroma
                      had a gun from a Panther

                      By the way, the "Panther" was always classified as a "so-so tank". Based on the definition "tanks don't fight tanks". The gun hit many armored targets, but the weakness of the 75mm shell affected infantry.
                    2. 0
                      30 August 2025 22: 47
                      Quote: Eroma
                      distance to target 3 km no problem! ANY IFV or light tank no problem or even the side of any main battle tank, also no problem and from a distance of 2 km!

                      Why the hell do you need these gun indicators when you have the "Konkurs" at this distance?
                      Are you trying to build a tank destroyer from an infantry fighting vehicle?
                      1. 0
                        30 August 2025 22: 53
                        An ATGM does not replace a gun! Especially on the move, especially when there are several targets, when you are ambushed but not hit, it is easier to shoot back from a gun! Hitting many targets is easier and cheaper by the way too! The gun gives many advantages, the given disadvantages in the form of weight and ammo in the hull do not offset the advantages, because the main disadvantage is the ammo in the hull in the combat module with the placement of the ammo in the niche of the bathhouse is removed, the weight remains, which in this case is not fundamental, it does not overload the machine.
                      2. 0
                        30 August 2025 22: 58
                        Let's say goodbye.
                        Quote: Eroma
                        especially on the move, especially when there are several targets, when you are ambushed but not hit, it is easier to shoot back from a gun!

                        Especially if... if... if, etc.
                        Especially when you want to defend your point of view without answering your opponent’s uncomfortable questions.
                        All the best.
                      3. -2
                        30 August 2025 23: 04
                        Quote: Adrey
                        Especially if... if... if, etc.

                        Funny cockroach races, I watched with interest Yes
                      4. 0
                        30 August 2025 23: 04
                        Quote: Paranoid62
                        Funny cockroach races, I watched with interest

                        Something like that laughing
                        Your man?
                      5. -3
                        30 August 2025 23: 06
                        Quote: Adrey
                        Your man?

                        Why do I need it? I'm a cat, I walk by myself. laughing
                      6. 0
                        30 August 2025 23: 07
                        Quote: Paranoid62
                        Why do I need it? I'm a cat, I walk by myself.

                        I know laughing
                        I'll know for the future.
                    3. 0
                      1 September 2025 12: 29
                      Is it true that a 100mm BMP-3 shot hitting ANY promising Western IFV will turn off its optics, as you think?
                      Why change to 75mm then?
                      1. +2
                        1 September 2025 23: 47
                        If it hits where it should, it will knock you out, but what will happen from just a hit with a 100mm HE shell, I don't know. Perhaps the enemy BMP will survive, that's why cumulative missiles are provided.
                        Quote: Arigin
                        Why change to 75mm then?

                        The 75mm gun was proposed by the author, there is criticism of the current 100mm gun, primarily because of the massive and rather vulnerable in the current realities ammo in the vehicle hull, the detonation of which buries the crew and troops, and the effectiveness of this gun is questionable (it is difficult for me to make an assessment here, but the presence of only 2 types of ammunition reduces the variability of use and the launched ATGM definitely has weak armor penetration, how critical this is on the battlefield I cannot assess).
                        I personally like the idea proposed by the author of installing a 75mm real tank gun on an IFV, because it can be placed with a more or less adequate ammo pack relatively safely on an IFV (in the turret niche) and not take up the internal space of the hull. This will be a universal weapon for hitting different targets, and effectively, NATO does not have "light" armored vehicles with 200mm armor against kinetic projectiles in its plans. This weapon will also allow having normal ATGMs to hit tanks and fortifications.
            3. 0
              12 September 2025 07: 55
              Quote: Eroma
              You are confusing the BMP and the APC, the APC's task is purely transport, and the BMP, by its designation, should bring infantry and support it with fire! Therefore, if it is possible to install a gun, then it is better to do so. Infantry support in the SVO is carried out from closed positions, the 75mm gun increases the firing range, and therefore the survivability of the BMP


              Then it turns out that we need to make an articulated three-link infantry fighting vehicle with the characteristics

              1. SDM (Self-propelled Landing Module) with close combat weapons of the AGS type with twin machine guns along the perimeter with the KAZ-ZAK function (four stations minimum)

              PU-jet flamethrower with a corresponding small ammo capacity for instant suppression of exposed fortifications

              Function:
              high-speed delivery of troops to the landing site, pouring fire on everything around them
              Unmanned supply along programmed routes with minimal operator intervention.

              Pillbox in case of immobilization at the landing site

              2.
              SBM (Self-propelled Combat Module) with main armament
              A relatively large caliber gun
              Mortar of relatively large caliber ± PU R
              AP with ZAK function

              Function: support SDM at a distance

              3. Crew and Operators Module (CMO)
              3 (driver, commander, UAV operator, etc.) +2 minimum (1 SDM operator and 1 SBM operator)

              4. Additional modules such as a tank trawl-bulldozer for self-digging.

              Well, in general, it is impossible to have both at the same time within one machine
              Firepower with a decent and safe ammo count
              Protection
              Decent landing force
              And an individual minimum effective engineering tool

              It's different
              The modern infantry squad is
              In any case, the (already invented) Tank is somewhere behind
              и
              high-speed robotic delivery vehicle (ideally armored and with at least some set of weapons = heavy armored personnel carrier)

              ==========

              Or it is necessary to reconsider the concept of the maximum permissible landing force of up to 3-4 people across in the rear armored capsule, docked to a tank / infantry fighting vehicle, etc. (for example, a rigidly docked armored module with a single-axle wheeled chassis like the armored boxes for the T-34 during the WWII)

              That is, there is no place on the battlefield for a single armored personnel carrier or infantry fighting vehicle.
      2. 0
        30 August 2025 23: 26
        Quote: Adrey
        Otherwise, everything is quite good.

        And the engine and automatic transmission in the center of the car? With a capacity of 1200 hp?? Can you even imagine what the temperature will be in the fighting and troop compartments? And in the summer heat? And if it accidentally ends up somewhere in Africa or the UAE? Not to mention how difficult it is to implement directly due to the high coefficient of novelty.
        As other proposals of the author raise questions. As a pure theory there is much that is interesting, but nothing more, certainly not today's implementation.
        Right away on the gun, where the tables compare the armor-piercing ability of domestic 30 mm shells and German 20 mm shells. The more powerful propellant charge of the Germans and the armor-piercing sub-caliber shell immediately catches the eye. While we ourselves have long had/developed and shown at exhibitions a domestic 30 mm armor-piercing sub-caliber shell. But to use it, some reworking of the gun and loading system is necessary. But the effect is obvious - any enemy tank in the side and any enemy infantry fighting vehicle can be penetrated by such a shell. So why bother if you can modify/modernize the existing gun for the new shell? And our 30 mm OFS is already good. If only it had a programmable fuse, it would be priceless.
        And when such a modified 30 mm cannon in the BM from the "Kurganets" is installed on a prospective TBMP (not the one the author proposed, but a regular front-engine one, on a tank chassis and with a normal spacious troop compartment for 8 people (or 6 people + additional ammunition and weapons), this will be what the Army and its assault units need.
        As for the machine guns on the fenders, it's like with a dinosaur on the streets of Moscow - 50/50, either it's necessary or not - it wouldn't hurt to try it out in practice and evaluate. Specifically on the experimental TBMP.
        So, personally, I still hold to my previous opinion - the TBMP should be made on the T-72\90 chassis, front-engine, with a rear ramp, armor at the level of a tank, weighing +- 40 tons, with a modified combat module from the "Kurganets", with developed side screens, both in the TBTR and TBMP variants. The TBTR is the same, but the BM is from the BTR-82A, but with a more rigid barrel that does not wander like a whip. Or invent a rigid frame casing for the barrel so that the end does not wander.
        And do not overthink innovations and complexities, design with the expectation of a quick launch into a large series, with minimal costs and only on existing and industrially mastered components. And first of all, develop and launch into series the TBTR as the most in-demand and convenient for production. And the TBMP is already in pursuit - for reinforcement.
        1. 0
          30 August 2025 23: 33
          Quote: bayard
          And the engine and automatic transmission are in the center of the car?

          Yes, not the best solution.
          Quote: bayard
          And our 30 mm OFS is already good. If only it had a programmable fuse, it would be priceless.

          And who is arguing?
          Quote: bayard
          it's like with a dinosaur on the streets of Moscow - 50/50

          No. There is no such "miracle" anywhere except here. There is no point in going back 100 years. Weapons should not just shoot, but also hit.
          Quote: bayard
          And first of all, develop and launch the TBTR into series production as the most in-demand and convenient for production. And the TBMP will be a follow-up - for reinforcement.

          To be honest, I don’t understand the difference between these cars at all.
          1. +1
            30 August 2025 23: 55
            Quote: Adrey
            To be honest, I don’t understand the difference between these cars at all.

            Only the combat module differs. And the troops need TBTRs, and to a much lesser extent TBMPs, in a ratio of approximately 4 to 1 or even 5 to 1.
            Quote: Adrey
            No. There is no such "miracle" anywhere except here.

            We came up with such a miracle for the BMD, but there the concept was different - to quickly destroy and disorganize the enemy's rear, to cause panic, more noise and crackle from a small "soapbox". It would be good to test the usefulness of such an option on experimental TBTR\TBMP and evaluate the feasibility. For a number of cases, such an option may be useful. In theory. Empirically. And we can always refuse.
            1. 0
              30 August 2025 23: 58
              Quote: bayard
              Only in the combat module

              And I am naive, I always thought that it was in the concept of tasks.
              1. 0
                31 August 2025 00: 02
                The BMP is a combat vehicle. The TBMP with the protection level of a tank is an assault vehicle, it goes ahead of the tanks, which support it with fire from a distance. And it is in the midst of the chaos after the landing of the troops.
                TBTR - delivery of troops to the dismounting line, evacuation of the wounded, supply of the front line. Participation in combat is optional - covering the landing force with fire during dismounting and evacuation from the battlefield.
                At one time, there was a lot of discussion on this topic, and for me everything had already come together.
                1. +1
                  31 August 2025 00: 13
                  But can it be otherwise?
                  The tank is the main striking force as the most protected, it goes ahead (it is not the SPGs that followed the tanks at a distance of 400-600 m). The BMP with the landing force BEHIND THE ARMOR (providing protection from the main weapons at a distance of 400-600 m and fragments of the main caliber artillery 155) follows, comprehensively supporting the main striking force in the attack (not the "gibberish" of the BMPT). Upon reaching the enemy's fortified area, the tank begins to "crush" it, the BMP landing force dismounts and, with the support of ALL means, destroys the enemy.
                  What's wrong?
                  1. +1
                    31 August 2025 02: 03
                    The tank is a bit blind, without infantry support if it is in front it will be finished even without FPV. And even if with a trawl through minefields, it is easier to have an empty TBTR (it is cheap - the armor box is empty), i.e. without troops, but with a trawl and under the barbecue. And the tank is behind, as direct fire support at identified targets. From such a distance, the tank can see better, it is less dangerous, and the fire support is very significant. But the IFV, having released the troops, can both provide fire support and as an assault vehicle in the thick of things - with its firepower and combat stability, this is the best. Previously, I considered the BMPT/ShMPP for such a role, but apparently the concept with the BMPT has no future. But the TBMP will cope with this role quite well.
                    But a tank in the infantry's combat formations... that's not the case today. It will concuss its own infantry with its gun even before it enters the battle, as proven in practice in Mariupol. That's why the roles should be distributed exactly like this:
                    - tank - direct fire support from a distance.
                    - TBMP - delivers infantry and acts as an assault infantry support vehicle.
                    - TBTR - delivers troops to the dismounting line and then supplies the front line and evacuates the wounded; combat is optional for TBTR.
                    And what you described is a concept from the 60s - 80s. Even in the 90s, something like "Terminator" was needed.
                    1. 0
                      31 August 2025 10: 49
                      Quote: bayard
                      The tank is blind

                      The BMP is also not a "keen falcon", the tank may even have better observation devices and it is certainly stronger.
                      1. +2
                        31 August 2025 14: 21
                        By definition, a heavy infantry fighting vehicle should have tank-level protection, but a different armament composition, more suitable for assault operations - a rapid-fire cannon, an automatic grenade launcher, faster turret rotation, the ability to use UAVs, ATGMs. And they interact much better with assault infantry. And the tank provides fire support and insurance from a certain distance.
                      2. +3
                        1 September 2025 10: 34
                        Quote: bayard
                        By definition, a heavy infantry fighting vehicle should have tank-level protection, but a different armament composition, more suitable for assault operations - a rapid-fire cannon, an automatic grenade launcher, faster turret rotation, the ability to use UAVs, ATGMs. And they interact much better with assault infantry.

                        Sorry, I'm late, but the topic is interesting. I agree with you in many ways. As for the voiced vision of "TBMP", it is essentially a BMPT, the specialization of which will be in the given composition of weapons, for interaction with assault infantry, and for interaction with tanks as well.
                        The whole point of the BMP is maneuverability and versatility, any "heavy BMP" loses this versatility. So, when dividing the function into transport and fire, we get two types of combat vehicles - a heavy APC (specialization highly protected transport for assault groups) and a BMPT (or "BMPP"), where the main task will be specialized fire support for tanks or assault infantry. A heavy APC will not be burdened with the dimensions and weight of weapons, and heavy support vehicles will not be burdened with a transport compartment. In this case, we get a harmonious triad on a single tracked base - a tank, BMPT, TBTR. In our case, on the T-72 / T-90 base.
                        The BMP should remain a maneuverable and versatile vehicle, capable of overcoming water obstacles, or be airborne (BMD). I would like to add to this that it is possible to revive the "missile tank" theme after the IT-1 has been forgotten, where a system with compact missiles will be used instead of a heavy and large tank gun, and an automatic 30 or 57 mm cannon will be used as an additional one. In fact, a caliber of 152 mm can already be considered the maximum possible, to keep the dimensions and weight within reasonable limits, without weakening, but even strengthening the protection, just what missile weapons can allow.
                        Also, what is happening in the SVO can hardly be considered as a standard for conclusions about what a big war can be, especially with the use of nuclear weapons, a preventive strike, the global use of aviation and the navy in this strike. The strange military operation has already generated a need for motorcycles, this is, rather, a product of a positional dead end, due to the absurd self-restraint and selfish interests of our fat cats.
                      3. +1
                        1 September 2025 14: 06
                        Quote: Per se.
                        Sorry, I'm late, but the topic is interesting. I agree with you in many ways.

                        hi
                        Quote: Per se.
                        As for the voiced vision of the "TBMP", this is essentially a BMPT, the specialization of which will be in the given composition of weapons, for interaction with assault infantry, and for interaction with tanks as well.

                        This is the exact point of view I have been proposing for the last 8 years, but the SVO, the experience of using the BMPT, the analysis of the capabilities and comparisons, lead to the idea that the BMPT in the form of the "Terminator" in modern conditions is not entirely rational, and on the modern battlefield and not very viable. They have a large crew (5 people), an extra automatic cannon and low-mounted TWO grenade launchers with personal shooters. As a result, the price is high, survivability on the modern battlefield is limited, and there is no troop compartment.
                        The fact is that the BM from the "Kurgansk-82" can easily be installed on the hull of a TBTR with a classic layout (front MTO, rear ramp, light BM from the BTR-25A), turning the TBTR into a TBMP with the firepower of the BMPT, but without the frills and inconveniences. As a result, for the industry, the production of such equipment is much simpler, more convenient for production cooperation in large-scale production, solves the same problems as the BMPT, but has a troop compartment, and this is important - the ability not only to deliver and land troops at the dismounting line, but also to pick up soldiers and the wounded during the battle itself, have its own drone driver in the troop compartment, including with a reserve of strike FPV, an additional BC, etc. But the main thing is that such a heavy infantry fighting vehicle based on a serial heavy armored personnel carrier will be cheaper and more convenient to operate, repair, and use in combat.
                        Quote: Per se.
                        A heavy APC will not be burdened with the dimensions and weight of weapons, and heavy support vehicles will not be burdened with a transport compartment.

                        If you make such a TBTR on the T-72\90 chassis, then with a full body kit it will weigh about 36-38 tons, and a TBMP, respectively, about 40 tons. When installing the same engine as on the T-90M and T-72B3M, these machines will be more than nimble and mobile. In addition, the TBTR can easily be covered with a solid barbecue a la barn, equipped with a trawl ... and this is cheaper than using a tank for demining.
                        The price of such a TBTR will be 2,5-3,5 times cheaper than a tank produced from scratch, and if we remember that we have 2500 T-64Bs with an untouched resource at our storage bases and use their chassis, then we can get even faster and cheaper up to 1500 TBTRs on the chassis of these tanks, and this can be done in the conditions of a re-equipped repair plant right at their storage bases. I have been writing about this for 9 years, I proposed it long before the SVO, foreseeing the nature of the future war with the storming of cities and fortified defense lines.
                        Quote: Per se.
                        The BMP must remain a maneuverable and versatile vehicle, capable of overcoming water obstacles, or be airborne (BMD).

                        The BMP-3M "Manul" is quite suitable for this, I would also leave the BMP-3 in its current form, but reclassify it as a BMPP (it goes into battle without a landing force, but is capable of picking up soldiers and the wounded on the battlefield), and of course an APC based on it\chassis of the correct layout with a front MTO and a rear ramp ... and a BM from the BTR-82A. Arm our Airborne Forces with a line of these machines (leave no more than 20-25% of the total fleet of BMDs), the Navy Marine Corps and vanguard units and subdivisions of tank and motorized rifle formations. And let them continue to swim. But this equipment is for capturing and holding bridgeheads, forcing water obstacles on the fly, for rapid airlift. But not for frontal attacks on fortified enemy positions.
                        Quote: Per se.
                        I would like to add that it is possible that the "missile tank" theme will be resurrected after the IT-1 has been forgotten, where a system with compact missiles will be used instead of a heavy and large tank gun

                        So this already exists and is in service, the vehicle is made on the BMP-3 chassis, and it has ATGMs with a range of up to 10 km.
                        Quote: Per se.
                        The strange military operation has already generated a need for motorcycles; this is, rather, a product of a positional deadlock, due to the absurd self-restraint and selfish interests of our fat cats.

                        That's right - a positional dead end is obvious and it came about because of the categorical unwillingness of the VPR to care about the defense capability of its army, because of the nonsense about the coveted Little Army, because of the failure of the SVO at the very first stages, because of the lack of a second echelon for the development and consolidation of the initially achieved success, because of the absence of mobilization plans and mobilization reserves for the rapid deployment of fresh forces. All today's blood and sweat is due to the sloppiness, unprofessionalism, embezzlement and sabotage of the previous leadership of the RF Ministry of Defense.
                        And now yes - motorcycles, homemade buggies, assault infiltration by small and ultra-small groups, losses and the inability to conduct a normal offensive operation. And something needs to be changed urgently with this.
                      4. +1
                        2 September 2025 06: 49
                        Quote: bayard
                        If we make such a TBTR on the T-72\90 chassis, then with full body kit it will weigh about 36-38 tons, and a TBMP, respectively, about 40 tons.

                        Thank you for the informative comment. What I would like to add here... Let's remember the Israeli "Achzarit", which was based on the T-54/T-55, or our BTR-T, this is one of the options for using a tank base, in Kharkov, on the basis of the T-64, they made an IFV (the engine allows transfer to the front part of the hull). We have the BMO-T, which on the basis of the T-72/T-90 can be modified into a heavy APC for assault groups. There are bases for both alterations and new production. Why did I say this, probably, if we are talking specifically about working with tanks, namely, as heavy equipment, both the TBTR and the updated BMPT must be made highly protected, where this protection (and combat weight) will be no less than that of tanks.
                        On the TBTR the number of landing troops is seen within 4-6 people, namely, as an assault group. This optimizes the comfort of placement, and without increasing the dimensions will allow to strengthen the protection, in case of defeat, with the landing troops on board, will reduce possible losses.
                        BMPT... Yes, there is scope for creativity. The crew could be reduced by making the grenade launchers course or with a separate remote guidance drive on the roof or side container. The BMPT's protection can and should be even higher than that of a tank, with the rejection of a large and heavy tank gun, this can be used. By the way, all of the above is not an alternative to classic armored personnel carriers, in particular wheeled ones, but a specialization for working with tanks, both as specialized fire support and as highly protected transport for assault groups.
                        SVO... This strange military operation, where they deliberately kill our men in frontal assaults, empty warehouses and arsenals, bleed Russia dry... The dominance in the heyday of drones is largely a product of a positional stalemate, zeroed-in areas, and established positions. I have already noted that the actions of small assault groups are at the forefront, and in three and a half years of SVO, there has not been a single military operation at the level of a combined arms army. No one has been held accountable for the failure of the "blitzkrieg", as well as for the lost opportunities of 2014, for the 8 years of head start for the Banderites. Probably, history will ask for this, as well as for the capitalism picked up from its garbage heap with its corrupt and dependent "elite".
                      5. +1
                        2 September 2025 09: 17
                        Quote: Per se.
                        In Kharkov, an infantry fighting vehicle was made on the basis of the T-64 (the engine can be moved to the front part of the hull).

                        These developments of the Kharkovites (even before the coup in Kyiv) should have been taken as a basis, and for a long time already. Due to the lighter chassis from the T-64 and the light compact opposed engine, their TBTR-64 ​​had a mass of 32 tons. We do not have such an engine, and as for the chassis ... they also made the TBTR-55 on the T-55 chassis and it turned out to weigh 28 tons! At the same time, special attention should be paid (I have always paid attention to this) to the enhanced protection of the side, which has spaced armor, sloping armor plates of the outer side above the fenders, on top of which our "Kontakt-5" fits so well. And fuel can be poured into the cavities above the fenders, like in additional fuel tanks for long marches, which (fuel) also well extinguishes the already disorganized cumulative jet. And the thickness of the citadel plate is left the same as the tank side - 80 mm. And Kevlar lining of the troop compartment. In combination with side screens like a tank with "Kontakt-5" on the screen panels and "Kaktus" on top of them, it provides very high-quality side protection, while keeping the weight of the TBTR within very reasonable limits. In addition, the TBTR-64 ​​also has a double roof with spaced armor, on top of which, if desired, "Kontakt-1" can be placed. And a light unmanned BM with an internal layout in the style of a "bus" - a continuous internal space.
                        Unfortunately, we do not have such a powerful and compact engine as the Kharkovites, which they finally brought to mind already in the 90s ... But if we had the engine that was prepared for the "Kurganets-25" (about 820 hp), it would be quite enough for such a TBTR. But ... since no, we need to install the engine that we have. Yes, it is large and heavy + reinforced armor of the front. But for balance, you can slightly extend the beveled stern with a ramp and hang a couple of armored cabinets on the sides of it for transported property and the APU, this will partly balance and add useful options.
                        But all this should have been done the day before yesterday. Then by today, most of the T-64s (which are unlikely to be returned to service as tanks) would have been transformed into heavy armored personnel carriers and heavy infantry fighting vehicles, and with the help of the modernized repair plant. Without loading the main production capacities.
                        From what is known today - UVZ has already created and is testing a TBTR of classic appearance on the T-90 chassis, its layout is similar to the "Kurganets" (as was recommended) ... But we have not heard about the series yet. Although UVZ has already built new hulls and assembly lines, so one of them can be loaded with the production of exactly these machines. But we are late.
                        We are also late with the launch of the BMP-3M "Manul" into production, which also needs its own assembly line and a new engine, which is only being finalized, is desirable. The workshops in Kurgan have also been built, but when will the production start... That's how you think about the price for our Army and the Country of the idiocy of the "airborne lobby" that pushed through the launch of a whole line of equipment for the Airborne Forces, which is completely useless now (and in the future). All these BMD-4, "Sprut-SDM", "Rakushka" and self-propelled guns based on them... It would be better to launch "Draguna" and "Manul" on these lines - for the same Airborne Forces and Marine Corps of the Navy they are much more useful and reliable.
                        Now we fight with what we have... on motorcycles.
                        Quote: Per se.
                        On the TBTR the number of landing forces is seen to be within 4-6 people, namely, as an assault group.

                        The size of the troop compartment should not be cut under any circumstances, any APC is an infantry transport. You can put fewer attack aircraft in the troop compartment, but with additional ammunition and weapons. You can take a medic in the troop compartment to assist in the evacuation of the wounded. You can take a couple of "bird houses" with a supply of attack drones. Yes, space is simply needed for use as a supply transport for the front line. A whole line of very useful vehicles can be made on the basis of the TBTR. In addition to the TBMP - KShM, a medical evacuation transporter, loading vehicles for artillery \ self-propelled guns of the front line \ near rear, for reloading tanks. But this is after saturating the Army with the required number of classic TBTR and TBMP.

                        Regarding the simplified BMPT\ShMPP, you can look at the experience of such a transformation of the Algerian T-62 park, with the replacement of the turret with an armored turret\BM "Berezhok" from the BMP-2M on the podium above the old ring. Cheap and cheerful. 30 mm. gun, 30 mm. grenade launcher, 4 ATGMs and reinforced turret armor. So from any old tanks you can quickly and inexpensively make a ShMPP, hang it with dynamic protection - here you have the "Hellish Thresher" of the front line. Highly protected, rapid-fire, maneuverable. And at the same time, using the efforts of an ordinary repair plant.
                      6. +2
                        2 September 2025 10: 16
                        Quote: bayard
                        The size of the troop compartment must not be reduced under any circumstances.
                        It's not about cutting the volume, but about not creating a monster for this volume like the T-15 BMP. A heavy APC should be specialized, namely, as a highly protected transport, which is how it will differ from a regular "armored bus" for 10-12 people. An assault group is something else, for it such a heavy APC on a tank base is needed, where 4-6 assault troops can comfortably sit, dismount faster and act as a group.
                        As for Kharkov, their developments... "That means we have a road there", but for this we need a renewed Union and people's, not bourgeois, power.
                      7. 0
                        2 September 2025 11: 47
                        I agree about people's power, and our road there... but the road is difficult.
                        Quote: Per se.
                        It’s not about cutting the volume, but about not creating a monster for this volume, like the T-15 BMP.

                        Ahura Mazda forbid such a monster. No - a regular six-wheel chassis, a troop compartment for 8 people. But you can load less - additional ammunition, weapons, take a medic to help the wounded on the way back, and who knows. Let the commander decide how many assault twos and threes to take based on the task at hand, and the capabilities of the equipment must be sufficient. Including so that a lying wounded person can fit.
                        The Kharkovites got a TBTR-64 ​​for 14 landing places, and a TBTR-55 for 12 people. But this is without heavy equipment, additional weapons and ammunition. For us, it is enough to have the ability to put 8 heavily equipped paratroopers in the TBTR. The war will not always be like it is now - a positional dead end.
                        Moreover - what else can you load such a TBTR with?? If it is a heavily armored bus on a tank chassis? If it has a light unmanned combat module, and inside it is a continuous space? It is possible to reduce the number of troops in a TBMP by a couple of people and it will be justified. But a TBTR, like any APC, must transport assault infantry and there must be enough space in it. Or are you suggesting that its base be shortened to 5 or even 4 rollers?? I am categorically against it - only a 6-roller base. And do not overcomplicate things with bells and whistles - the basic model of a TBTR should be as simple as possible, inexpensive and easy to operate and repair.
                      8. 0
                        2 September 2025 12: 26
                        Quote: bayard
                        Or are you suggesting that he shorten the base to 5 or even 4 rinks?
                        No, it's a tank chassis. It's just that you can't add anything without sacrificing anything. In our case, we increase comfort and protection by eliminating the weight of the turret and its ammunition. The internal volume is as large as the tank base and its dimensions allow. There used to be a joke about a "Zaporozhets" that could fit more than 4 people if desired (necessary). This is about how many assault troops are in the vehicle as standard and how many "if necessary". I repeat, reducing the number of troops (assault group), in addition to comfort and reducing the time for dismounting and deploying, is a reduction in the risk of losses when an APC with non-dismounted infantry is hit.
                        TBMP... Before dismounting, it has the function of an APC, after dismounting, the function of a BMPT. In one case, the ballast is weapons, in the second, the landing compartment. Therefore, I repeat, we need a "tandem IFV", the wheat from the chaff, this will strengthen the specialization, where there will be both powerful weapons for support and a fairly roomy transport compartment with high protection. Of course, this is just my opinion. Such a division of specialization will allow us to create effective and extremely simple, inexpensive and easy to operate and repair machines. Jack, reaper, and piper, this is already versatility, which is detrimental for heavy vehicles, since specialization is more suitable for a heavy vehicle, unless, of course, you breed expensive and complex monsters. For versatility, there is the BMP-3, and for an "armored bus" the same BTR-82.
                        Thank you for the dialogue, all the best.
                      9. -1
                        12 September 2025 10: 25
                        Quote: bayard
                        Survivability on the modern battlefield is limited (BMPT Terminator)


                        what are the statistics of losses % of bmpt, bmp3 and tanks?

                        It seems there is information ≈25% (if there were no replenishments) ≈20 there were ≈14-15 in stock.

                        Thank you?
                      10. +2
                        12 September 2025 12: 40
                        Quote: Eng Mech
                        what are the statistics of losses % of bmpt, bmp3 and tanks?

                        The question is incorrect. Everything depends on many factors - for what period of the current conflict, for and under what tactics of combat use, besides now all armored vehicles on the battlefield have been equalized with FPV. The question may be about the feasibility of using a specific type of armored vehicles for certain types of combat missions. And since the conditions and nature of combat operations can be different and vary greatly in different tactical situations and in different types of conflict, the tools for solving such problems should be different. Both heavy TBMP\TBTR and amphibious combat armored vehicles are needed. The BMP-3 is just that - it floats, and withstands heavy bullets and shrapnel, is armed excellently, but has inconvenient placement of troops and conditions for boarding/dismounting. As for a floating vehicle, such a layout is better (the issue of sealing during swimming is easier to solve), but as for an IFV in combat - the opposite.
                        But no one will give you real statistics on losses by type of armored vehicles, time periods and in specific combat conditions - the war is ongoing.
                      11. 0
                        12 September 2025 12: 55
                        Quote: bayard
                        Quote: Eng Mech
                        what are the statistics of losses % of bmpt, bmp3 and tanks?

                        The question is incorrect. Everything depends on many factors - for what period of the current conflict, for and under what tactics of combat use, besides now all armored vehicles on the battlefield have been equalized with FPV. The question may be about the feasibility of using a specific type of armored vehicles for certain types of combat missions. And since the conditions and nature of combat operations can be different and vary greatly in different tactical situations and in different types of conflict, the tools for solving such problems should be different. Both heavy TBMP\TBTR and amphibious combat armored vehicles are needed. The BMP-3 is just that - it floats, and withstands heavy bullets and shrapnel, is armed excellently, but has inconvenient placement of troops and conditions for boarding/dismounting. As for a floating vehicle, such a layout is better (the issue of sealing during swimming is easier to solve), but as for an IFV in combat - the opposite.
                        But no one will give you real statistics on losses by type of armored vehicles, time periods and in specific combat conditions - the war is ongoing.


                        You are right as always.

                        Then the thesis about the limited survival of the BMP on the modern battlefield is not clear.

                        Thank you.
                      12. +2
                        12 September 2025 14: 03
                        The survivability of the BMPT is at least no lower than the survivability of the MBT. The problem is that the BMPT is smaller, they are more expensive than a tank and it has a crew of 5 people (in case of a vehicle defeat, losses are greater). And with the appearance of attack drones over the battlefield, the BMPT has a smaller target load, and the threats (and, as a result, vulnerability) have increased at least an order of magnitude. Its targets are infantry with anti-tank weapons behind an obstacle, light and heavy armored vehicles. Now the combat conditions are completely different. Therefore, it was considered impractical to launch serial production of the BMPT, because with the advent of the TBMP, this machine will be able to replace the BMPT in all combat situations, but at the same time it will carry infantry, it will cost less, and its unification with the TBTR will simplify and reduce the cost of production.
                        The BMPTs were simply late in their appearance. If they had been in the troops at the beginning of the Central Military District in quantities of at least 200-300 units, they could well have been used as an assault vehicle to support infantry (and tanks on the march), and in addition to them, it would have been necessary to make a TBTR for joint operations. But since the BMPTs did not go into production, there is nothing to start. We simply make a TBTR and TBMP on its basis. And we will cover all the needs of the assault infantry in heavy armored vehicles.
                      13. +1
                        13 September 2025 08: 53
                        Quote: bayard
                        If you make such a TBTR on the T-72\90 chassis, then with a full body kit it will weigh about 36-38 tons, and a TBMP, respectively, about 40 tons. When installing the same engine as on the T-90M and T-72B3M, these machines will be more than nimble and mobile. In addition, the TBTR can easily be covered with a solid barbecue a la barn, equipped with a trawl ... and this is cheaper than using a tank for demining.
                        The price of such a TBTR will be 2,5-3,5 times cheaper than a tank produced from scratch, and if we remember that we have 2500 T-64Bs with an untouched resource at our storage bases and use their chassis, then we can get even faster and cheaper up to 1500 TBTRs on the chassis of these tanks, and this can be done in the conditions of a re-equipped repair plant right at their storage bases.



                        I remember we already discussed this topic under another article.

                        TBMP and TBTR, as far as I understand, are seen by you as the infantry transport vehicle closest to the enemy, which is supported by tanks, BMPTs and other reinforcements at a distance.

                        Hence my firm conviction that it should be protected no worse than a tank.

                        Again, based on the proximity to the enemy (=> high probability of being attacked from at least three sides and, accordingly, the ability to simultaneously fire in several directions at the same time (for example, there is information that the BMPT hits about 40% of targets with course AGS)),
                        и
                        a seemingly mandatory condition is at least the presence of a separate drone driver in the crew, => the minimum crew composition cannot be less than 4 people.

                        That is, it turns out that it is necessary to comfortably accommodate well-equipped personnel and, ideally, with additional ammunition and additional group means of increasing firepower on site.
                        For
                        TBTR 4+8=12 people
                        Let's say for
                        TBMP 4+6=10 people

                        Existing base
                        T-64 39t 6.6m hull length
                        T-72 41t 6.7m hull length
                        T-90 47t 6.9m hull length

                        In this case,
                        BMPT 48t 7m hull length 5 people
                        BMO-T 44t 7.2m hull length 2+7 persons
                        Kurganets-25 25t 7.2m hull length 3+8 persons


                        That is, the closest "unarmed" infantry transport vehicle, protected at the tank level, will weigh no less than the BMO-T 44t with the assumed extension of the hull by 1 roller (otherwise, it may be problematic to comfortably accommodate at least 10 people with an ammunition reserve)

                        That is, if I’m not mistaken, then I’m tormented by vague doubts that such a number of troops can be accommodated in a highly protected front-line vehicle the size of a domestic tank.

                        The weight category of less than 40t for at least 10 people seems to me to be stepping on the same rake, only a little heavier.

                        Thank you.
                      14. 0
                        13 September 2025 13: 11
                        Quote: Eng Mech
                        TBMP and TBTR, as far as I understand, are seen by you as the infantry transport vehicle closest to the enemy, which is supported by tanks, BMPTs and other reinforcements at a distance.

                        If we have a TBMP, then the need for a separate BMPT disappears, because the composition of the weapons is approximately the same. If you want to have a separately controlled grenade launcher, then there is experience in placing it on the main module. Two people to control the weapons - the commander and the gunner. The fourth crew member can be a drone operator - for optical reconnaissance and FPV use.

                        In terms of the mass of the TBTR and TBMP, it's better to look at these figures for the Kharkovites and their TBTR-64, which came out to be within 32-34 tons. But the T-64 chassis and its opposed engine are significantly lighter and more compact. And their TBTR did not have a full dynamic protection kit (it had a partial one based on "Kontakt-1". In our case, it should be "Kontakt-5" + "Kaktus" on top of "Kontakt-5" on the side screens. Like the MBT. Spaced side armor and such side screens will provide a very high level of side protection. In this case, the mass of the TBTR will be around 38-40 tons. The TBMP has more due to the weight of the BM.
                        There is no need to overthink the design of the TBTR itself - a continuous internal space of the "bus" type. Maximum technology and unification with existing models. Technology - simplicity and convenience for large-scale production with minimal costs and time expenditures.
                        I would really like to get a more compact engine, but in the absence of one, we will most likely have to use the large and heavy, but familiar and reliable one from the T-90M.
                        If it is possible to use the entire fleet from the T-64 storage bases for transformation into TBTR, it would be very good. But I am afraid that too much time has been lost for this.
                      15. -1
                        13 September 2025 15: 39
                        Quote: bayard
                        In terms of the weight of the TBTR and TBMP, it’s better to look at these figures from the Kharkovites and their TBTR-64, which turned out to be within 32-34 tons. But the T-64 chassis and its opposed engine are significantly lighter and more compact.


                        Well, accordingly, with a clearly larger armor surface area, the level of protection is most likely worse than that of the original tank.

                        Let's assume that, thanks to the ultra-compact SU on the BMPV-64, they managed to fit 3+12 people (like sardines in a barrel).

                        But even if you fit them all in two rows along the sides and one in the center between the rows, you get

                        7 people * 0.6 m = 4.2 m minimum only for the main part of people (with an overall length of the car of 6.5 m)

                        0.6m, not a very broad-shouldered young man 0.45m + equipment 0.15m (and I would not dare to call this a comfortable placement, which I estimate as 0.75m per person in equipment and with the fastening of personal weapons to the side of each)

                        Well, in general, I continue to be tormented by vague doubts about endless attempts to step on the same rake, only harder.

                        Do you have a full description of your vision published anywhere?

                        You yourself tried to sketch out what you want.

                        I can try to do low-art scale dimensions by hand if you provide some more or less finished technical specifications together with the proposed combat vehicles that exist in real life.

                        Thank you.
                      16. 0
                        13 September 2025 19: 39
                        Quote: Eng Mech
                        with a clearly larger armor surface area, the level of protection is most likely worse than that of the original tank.

                        Minus the weight of the turret, gun, ammo and automatic fire - from 8 to 10 tons.
                        This is just an armor box with spaced armor. The sides of the citadel with a troop compartment are 60-80 mm. (the Kharkovites have 80 mm in the original), side boxes with fuel tanks the width of the tracks, external armor plates are 25-30 mm.
                        Due to the large engine, the frontal part will have a somewhat specific configuration with an elevated lower part of the "wedge" and a longer and flatter upper part. The lower part of the wedge is a double sandwich, the upper part is a single one. The MTO is separated from the combat/troop compartment by a solid 25 mm armor partition.
                        The roof of the citadel is double, spaced. The upper armor plate is 15 mm, the lower is 25 mm, the space between the upper and lower plates is about 150 mm.
                        The stern is beveled for quick lowering/falling of the ramp under its own weight, the upper part is seriously extended beyond the track cut. This will, among other things, somewhat balance the heavy nose of the TBTR due to the heavy and large engine and transmission and will create a slightly larger internal volume.
                        The TBTR-64's landing capacity, in addition to the 3 crew members, is 14 landing personnel without heavy equipment. That's how it's written. The TBTR-12 (based on the T-55 chassis) has 55 landing personnel. It's clear that this is too much for combat use, but there's definitely enough space in the TBTR to comfortably accommodate 8 landing personnel with heavy equipment.
                        In principle, UVZ has been testing approximately the same TBTR for over a year now. Judging by the appearance, it is approximately the same as I am describing. I hope that their work is progressing successfully and that the fine-tuning has already been completed, new workshops have been built and serial production can be launched.
                      17. 0
                        14 September 2025 03: 17
                        Quote: bayard
                        Quote: Eng Mech
                        with a clearly larger armor surface area, the level of protection is most likely worse than that of the original tank.

                        Minus the weight of the turret, gun, ammo and automatic fire - from 8 to 10 tons.
                        This is just an armor box with spaced armor. The sides of the citadel with a troop compartment are 60-80 mm. (the Kharkovites have 80 mm in the original), side boxes with fuel tanks the width of the tracks, external armor plates are 25-30 mm.
                        Due to the large engine, the frontal part will have a somewhat specific configuration with an elevated lower part of the "wedge" and a longer and flatter upper part. The lower part of the wedge is a double sandwich, the upper part is a single one. The MTO is separated from the combat/troop compartment by a solid 25 mm armor partition.
                        The roof of the citadel is double, spaced. The upper armor plate is 15 mm, the lower is 25 mm, the space between the upper and lower plates is about 150 mm.
                        The stern is beveled for quick lowering/falling of the ramp under its own weight, the upper part is seriously extended beyond the track cut. This will, among other things, somewhat balance the heavy nose of the TBTR due to the heavy and large engine and transmission and will create a slightly larger internal volume.
                        The TBTR-64's landing capacity, in addition to the 3 crew members, is 14 landing personnel without heavy equipment. That's how it's written. The TBTR-12 (based on the T-55 chassis) has 55 landing personnel. It's clear that this is too much for combat use, but there's definitely enough space in the TBTR to comfortably accommodate 8 landing personnel with heavy equipment.
                        In principle, UVZ has been testing approximately the same TBTR for over a year now. Judging by the appearance, it is approximately the same as I am describing. I hope that their work is progressing successfully and that the fine-tuning has already been completed, new workshops have been built and serial production can be launched.


                        - tank turret with ammo, etc.
                        + combat module (modules) with ammo, etc.

                        Apparently we have different ideas (I admit that mine is fundamentally wrong) about protection no worse than a tank combat vehicle of the front line with an area and armored volume much larger than that of a tank.

                        Well, something worked out for KhTZ and UVZ, we’ll see how they survive.

                        Is there a name of the product from UVZ and links to its description and pictures?

                        Thank you
                      18. +1
                        14 September 2025 04: 26
                        Quote: Eng Mech
                        Is there a name of the product from UVZ and links to its description and pictures?

                        There was a short video about a year and a half ago of about 7-8 seconds of filming a TBTR at a crossing. There was snow. What I managed to see was approximately what I described. Judging by the configuration of the nose, the engine there is native to the T-90, the chassis too. The sides are straight vertical, and not slanted like those from Kharkov. There was no combat module at all. About the same size as the "Kurganets".
                        Quote: Eng Mech

                        Apparently we have different ideas (I admit that mine is fundamentally wrong) about protection no worse than a tank combat vehicle of the front line with an area and armored volume much larger than that of a tank.

                        I extrapolated the mass of the TBTR on the T-90 chassis from the mass of the TBTR-64. With a light module of 30 mm. gun (not like ours, but judging by the dimensions, it roughly corresponds to the module from the BTR-82A. If the TBTR-64 ​​with a module, side screens and ERA "Kontakt-1" weighs 34 tons, then our TBTR with a heavier chassis, a larger hull, straight sides, a heavier and larger engine and ERA "Kontakt-5" and "Kaktus" - about 40 tons.
                        TBMP on the same hull, but with a BM from "Kurganets" - 42 tons.
                        This is the maximum and with allowances on the larger side.
                        If there was an opportunity to experiment and work with armor thicknesses, then it would be quite realistic to reach a weight of 38 tons for the TBTR and 40 tons for the TBMP. But this is not fundamental. What is fundamental now is the timing of the preparation of the TBTR for serial production and the technological advancement of this vehicle (simplicity, convenience, optimization of cost and labor costs). And the engine is powerful, the thrust-to-weight ratio will definitely be sufficient.
                      19. 0
                        14 September 2025 04: 39
                        Incidentally,

                        You've probably already answered this question, but I have to ask.

                        Why not use the desired product as an example?
                        Intended for 60t, 7.5m hull length, 3+9 people?

                        Why as an example - products of "HTZ" weighing <40t

                        I would read your criticism of the Namer with genuine interest (maybe with the exception of the obviousness for me that it is too heavy for soft ground. Although before you it was obvious to me that for a TBMP/TBTR the most important thing is maximum protection from all angles, and as for the possibility of using existing tank chassis if desired - as it turns out).

                        Thank you
                      20. +1
                        14 September 2025 05: 43
                        Quote: Eng Mech
                        Why as an example - products of "HTZ" weighing <40t

                        Firstly, because it appeared before the Maidan in Kyiv, I looked at it with interest back in 2012 and 2013. At that time, it was "the best heavy tracked APC by a combination of parameters". In the world. As a concept. In which everything was optimal, from the chosen chassis and engine, to the optimal angles of the front and sides, the beveled rear part, so that the ramp itself fell under its own weight.
                        And yes, I got it a little mixed up - the TBMP version weighed 34 tons with a BM with a 30 mm cannon and machine gun. It was a fairly light module and not the final version. And the TBTR version weighed 32 tons.
                        And the TBTR-55 has 28 tons.
                        At the same time, both had 80 mm side plates on the citadel, and the outer side plates of the fender boxes, which were rolled up to the roof, were 25-30 mm. And despite the fact that it had a relatively squat appearance (maybe it seemed so because of the collapse of the upper part of the outer side), it had spaced armor on the roof. An additional advantage of this was that the submersible part of the unmanned BM was located in this spaced space of the roof and did not interfere with the landing force, as in the BTR-82A. If we had such an ultra-compact opposite engine ... And without it, with a huge engine from the T-90, our TBTR will definitely not become such a beauty. And it will have problems because of the overweight front part. If we had at least the engine that was prepared for the "Kurganets-25" and promised it 820 hp. Then we could try our luck to repeat the weight record of the Kharkovites with the same dimensions and boldly take on the conversion of all T-64s into TBTR and TBMP. And we had them in storage 2500 pcs. The power would be enough for good mobility with a weight of 34-35 tons.
                      21. +1
                        14 September 2025 06: 10
                        Quote: Eng Mech
                        Why not use the desired product as an example?
                        Intended for 60t, 7.5m hull length, 3+9 people?

                        Because this is definitely not our option. Not by any of the parameters. Firstly, we don't have an engine for a vehicle with such a mass - the engine for the "Armata" is not finished. Secondly, such a mass is excessive even for our railway platforms and many bridges will not withstand it. Thirdly, our soft soils will not normally support such a mass even in the summer. And fourthly, the price of such a piece of junk will be about 2 times higher than the TBTR on the chassis of our MBT.
                        Well, and the most important thing is that we are not fighting rebels armed with Kalashnikovs and simple grenade launchers. We need such equipment in large quantities, about 2000 units, so the price should be moderate, the quality high, and the production convenient due to the use of only ready-made and well-tested serial components.
                        So why look at Israeli fantasies, if we have sculpted something similar - T-15. As in that proverb: "We sculpted it - were surprised, we counted - we cried". That's how it turned out with "Kurganets", the price of which turned out to be the same as the T-90A MBT. And we don't need a wonder weapon, but a consumable of war.
                      22. 0
                        14 September 2025 08: 39
                        Quote: bayard
                        What we need is not a wonder weapon, but a consumable of war.


                        Well, I guess I shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
                        That is, it would be good if, as a result, only the vehicle was a consumable, and not the vehicle with the crew and troops.

                        As I understand it, you are only criticizing the obviously excessive weight for our proposed turboprop engines and the range of internal combustion engines available to us.

                        Or there are objections to the design/architecture.

                        Thank you.
                      23. +1
                        14 September 2025 12: 21
                        Quote: Eng Mech
                        Or there are objections to the design/architecture.

                        Objections to everything in a complex. From the size and weight, to the price and the underlying ideology. The desired image of the TBTR that I described for our army is optimal, it has extremely high side protection - a higher degree of protection due to the armor spaced across the width of the track (with the citadel armor plate thickness of the tank side) and two-layer dynamic protection of the side screens, which can cope with a tandem cumulative munition. In fact, in our case, the TBTR has frontal protection at the level of a tank, side protection above the tank level, rear - above the tank level (there is simply no MTO and penetration from this angle can cause damage to the landing party, but will not disable the vehicle and will not cause critical damage), and does not have an ammo pack inside that can detonate and destroy the vehicle upon penetration. And this is at a completely reasonable price, availability of technologies, serial production of components and the required characteristics. Don't look for good when good is good.
                      24. +1
                        14 September 2025 19: 54
                        What is described in words looks good.

                        UVZ product, apparently this is what is meant.

                        Looks like it's highly protected.
                        https://tehnoomsk.ru/archives/13373
                      25. +1
                        14 September 2025 20: 50
                        Yes, it looks like it.
                        Finally, the TBMP has its MTO in the front and the ramp in the back. All these perversions with landing through the engine reminded me of the creativity of a group of comrades from Ward No. 6. Now we need to finish it and put it into production - the war is on, and we still don't have a reliably protected TBMP or TBTR.
                      26. 0
                        16 September 2025 06: 27
                        Quote: bayard
                        Objections to everything in a complex. From size and weight to price and the underlying ideology.


                        I forgot to ask, what's wrong with the ideology of the "sons of the promised land" product?

                        Thank you.

                        By the way, I came across pictures of the interior of the products of the "gloomy Teutonic-Magyar genius" (KF41 44t) and the "descendants of the ancient Ukrainians".

                        The product of the latter does not look from the inside as "chopped for the glory of the heroes" unless it is eternal.
                      27. +1
                        16 September 2025 11: 23
                        Quote: Eng Mech
                        I forgot to ask, what's wrong with the ideology of the "sons of the promised land" product?

                        I don’t have a political ideology, let political scientists deal with that.
                        The focus is on maximum protection due to dimensions (spaced armor) regardless of weight restrictions. For the hard rocky soils of Palestine, it is still tolerable and justified. For our soft soils, muddy roads, snow cover and bridge load capacity... it is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. Not for our Palestines.
                        Quote: Eng Mech
                        The product of the latter does not look from the inside as "chopped for the glory of the heroes" unless it is eternal.

                        Well, on the left are the "space marine" seats, on the right - "seven on benches". I was wondering how they could fit 14 marines (even without body armor) into such dimensions, and now I can see it. I evaluated the concept from the outside, but they tried not to show off the interior. Which is not surprising. The plant carried out the work on its own initiative, using its own funds. No time for frills and the old-fashioned way. I remember such benches in the old artillery tractor (from WWII), which I played in as a child. Offhand - a bit low, the interior could use some work. Otherwise, and at that time - a tank level of protection at 34 tons in the TBMP version. The US aluminum Bradley weighs that much, which has protection at the level of "Dragoon\Manul" (with a mass of 21 tons).
                        Quote: Eng Mech
                        The product of the latter does not look from the inside as "chopped for the glory of the heroes" unless it is eternal.

                        In the former Sumeria there was a TV show called "It's been done in Ukraine".
                        There is a play on words here, because "poroba" in Sumerian-Jewish folklore means "witchcraft, black magic for harm, illness and death". So the conditions for the landing are indeed "poroblanes".
      3. +1
        1 September 2025 16: 40
        75mm is excessive. A 57mm machine gun in an unmanned module is sufficient
        a tank base is needed, preferably lightweight 40mm aluminum armor, welded explosively on both sides with 10mm steel sheets
        + 50 mm ceramics - DZ Relict + 50 mm ceramics - DZ Relict - then 60 mm armor
        equivalent of 660mm BOPS
        equivalent of KS 985-mm
        + from drones (up to 50 meters/sec) 5 12-mm machine guns in 5 DPUs coupled with APS - ARM at the gunner
        + from ATGM, UAS, RPG KAZ Afghanit to 50 mortars
  5. -6
    30 August 2025 06: 35
    Experience with the BMP-3 showed that a 100 mm cannon is useless; when the ammo detonates, the BMP becomes a mass grave.
    1. +4
      30 August 2025 10: 48
      Quote: Mars
      Experience with the BMP-3 has shown that a 100 mm cannon is useless

      The BMP-3 can fire at enemy infantry entrenched in trenches and dugouts with a 100mm gun. According to this scheme https://vkvideo.ru/video-203669938_456240758?ref_domain=yastatic.net
      What other IFV can destroy enemy infantry entrenched in trenches and ditches?
      1. +2
        30 August 2025 13: 03
        Why do you think that fire from the ZOP is part of the BMP’s mission?
        The IFV must deliver infantry to the battlefield and provide fire support if necessary.
        And artillery should fire from the ZOP.
        1. +7
          30 August 2025 14: 34
          Quote: Dmitry_Likhoded
          Why do you think that fire from the ZOP is part of the BMP’s mission?

          It wasn't me who decided this. In the Russian army, fire from a BMP-3 with a ZOP was practiced in exercises and practiced long before the SVO.
          It's very strange that you ask a question about this...
          Quote: Dmitry_Likhoded
          and provide fire support if necessary

          That's right. But small-caliber artillery fire on trenches and ditches is not effective, except for the use of programmable detonation.
          Quote: Dmitry_Likhoded
          And artillery should fire from the ZOP

          Would it be worse if, in addition to artillery, infantry fighting vehicles also fired?
          1. +2
            30 August 2025 14: 44
            Quote: rytik32
            Would it be worse if, in addition to artillery, infantry fighting vehicles also fired?

            At this time, the infantry fighting vehicle with the landing force must advance to the attack line.
            Quote: rytik32
            That's right. But small-caliber artillery fire on trenches and ditches is not effective, except use of programmable detonation.

            Which was needed yesterday, but tomorrow has not yet loomed. Hence all attempts to cram large calibers into a light vehicle are superfluous for it.
          2. +9
            30 August 2025 14: 48
            Shooting from the ZOP with the BMP began to be practiced after the BMP-3 with a hundred entered service. This is not included in the main tasks of the BMP.
            Is firing a .30 into trenches ineffective??? In theory?
            Have you ever sat on a strongpoint under fire from a 30mm gun? I have. It crushes resistance quite effectively. And the prisoners we interrogated said that direct fire from a XNUMXmm gun is the most terrible thing for them.
            Each type of weapon must be used for its intended purpose. The BMP has its own functions, and by sticking a 100mm gun in there, it was turned into a useless sub-tank.
            1. -5
              30 August 2025 19: 41
              Everyone also forgets that the 100mm cannon has terrifying accuracy, and the low projectile speed basically puts an end to shooting at moving targets.

              The shell there is essentially a shell from the T55, but the T55 works much better from closed positions and has a much longer range.

              In addition, the missiles from the 100mm cannon do not have the necessary lethal force and are not capable of hitting a tank. Which clearly indicates that the concept of remote ATGMs like the Bradley or the modernized BMP2 is much more effective.

              An alternative to the 100mm cannon could be the 57mm automatic module, which they say has some projectiles with programmable detonation - this is very useful for trenches, as is the 57mm for fortifications. But the 30mm also has a place to be, it's just that the modules can be universal.
            2. +2
              30 August 2025 23: 42
              Quote: Dmitry_Likhoded
              By sticking a 100mm gun in there, it was turned into a useless sub-tank.

              And not a self-propelled gun? And not a mortar? Capable of firing in any direction even from a ravine or a forest clearing? And also floating and carrying troops?
              Now imagine several of these vehicles on a bridgehead, separated from the main forces and in very rugged terrain. Do you think that the ability of the BMP-3 gun to fire at a mortar, raising the barrel almost 70 degrees, is this really an unnecessary option?
              And its 100 mm ATGMs will easily take out any enemy infantry fighting vehicle, and a tank from the side, even from the course angles.
              simply BMP-3, it is not so much a vehicle for frontal assault of fortified enemy positions, but a vehicle for airborne troops, marines of the Navy and vanguard units of tank and motorized rifle divisions. I would reclassify it in its current form from BMP to BMPP - infantry support fighting vehicle. Which goes into battle WITHOUT landing troops (landing in an armored personnel carrier on its chassis with a NORMAL layout - front MTO and rear ramp), but which has the ability to accept fighters on the battlefield. Because for landing troops BMP-3 is extremely inconvenient and its new modification is needed in the form of "Dragoon" or "Manul".
              The BMP-3 is a great tool, but it needs to be used correctly.
              1. -2
                1 September 2025 16: 06
                the ability of the BMP-3 gun to fire at a mortar by raising the barrel by almost 70 degrees, is this really an unnecessary option?

                Simply a wonderful option. And if you stick a 3mm howitzer on the BMP-152, it will become even more dangerous. And you can also put a missile-gun module on top, it will also turn into an air defense. And if it also makes coffee, then it will be a fire machine.

                And its 100 mm. ATGM will easily take out any enemy infantry fighting vehicle, and a tank from the side, even from the course angles.

                Is there even one documented case of something like this?

                Well, I saw a bunch of BPMs on the bridgehead in the spring of 2022 near Belogorovka. It didn't end well.
                1. +1
                  1 September 2025 17: 13
                  Quote: Dmitry_Likhoded
                  And if you stick a 3mm howitzer on the BMP-152, it will become even more dangerous.

                  You will obviously laugh, but you still got it - there is an experimental self-propelled gun on the BMP-3 chassis with a 152 mm gun, which was made at the turn of the 80s and 90s to replace the "Gvozdika". It also floated.
                  But of course this is all bad, harmful and funny.
                  Quote: Dmitry_Likhoded
                  And you can also put a missile-gun module on top.

                  So its standard module/turret is like that - missile-gun. Because the gun also fires ATGM.
                  Quote: Dmitry_Likhoded
                  it will also turn into an air defense system

                  And this already exists, though on the BMD chassis, I think it’s called “Birdcatcher”.
                  And there is an anti-tank complex with missiles/ATGMs with a range of up to 10 km on its base. It is also a good thing.
                  Quote: Dmitry_Likhoded

                  And its 100 mm. ATGM will easily take out any enemy infantry fighting vehicle, and a tank from the side, even from the course angles.
                  Is there even one documented case of something like this?

                  Any doubts?
                  At one time, even our "Baby" could do this.
                  Quote: Dmitry_Likhoded
                  and I saw a bunch of BPMs on the bridgehead in the spring of 2022 near Belogorovka. It didn't end well.

                  But this is already combat tactics. Combat tactics in war and safety precautions in production are written in blood.
                  What is needed on the bridgehead is not a "bunch of BMPs", but only the number necessary to hold it and then expand it. Air control, air defense of the front line, camouflage, proper maneuvering. In addition, this war is absolutely not like any of the previous ones. New threats lead to new means of stopping them. And now, in essence, there is a positional dead end. New solutions are needed, they are being sought, found, tried.
                2. -1
                  2 September 2025 22: 18
                  Simply a wonderful option. And if you stick a 3mm howitzer on the BMP-152, it will become even more dangerous. And you can also put a missile-gun module on top, it will also turn into an air defense. And if it also makes coffee, then it will be a fire machine.

                  Don't forget the team of military doctors. They will set up a mobile operating room there. Definitely with nurses! bully
      2. 0
        31 August 2025 10: 44
        In fact, the main task of the BMP is to deliver an infantry squad to the dismounting line. And next to 100 mm shells, this can end fatally, since the BMP is torn apart when detonated.
        1. +1
          31 August 2025 10: 58
          Quote: Mars
          how the BMP is torn apart during detonation

          If 20...40 mm shells explode inside the BMP, do you think the crew will feel better?
          Quote: Mars
          next to 100mm shells

          Do you think 152mm ATGMs inside an infantry fighting vehicle are acceptable?
          1. -2
            31 August 2025 11: 25
            30 mm shells do not tear the BMP apart. The ATGM on top of the armor will not completely destroy the crew and troops either.
            1. -1
              31 August 2025 12: 03
              Quote: Mars
              don't tear the BMP apart

              You only care about the safety of the hull, and you don’t care about the crew?

              Quote: Mars
              ATGM on top of the armor

              And inside
              1. -3
                31 August 2025 13: 32
                In addition to the crew, there is a landing party of 7 people, whom the BMP must carry to the dismounting line. And Bradleys have shown good survivability, both from drones and from mines. They are not torn apart.
                1. +1
                  31 August 2025 13: 43
                  Quote: Mars
                  And Bradleys have shown good survivability, both from drones and mines.

                  I have heard this statement many times about the CIPSOshniks, but no one has yet provided proof from reliable sources.
                  Quote: Mars
                  It doesn't tear them apart

                  Then what kind of infantry fighting vehicle is this?
                  And if you are still more worried about the hull than about the crew and landing party, I hasten to disappoint you. After a fire, the hull goes to scrap metal regardless of whether it is torn to pieces or not.
                  1. -3
                    31 August 2025 14: 15
                    You can watch the video where drones are hitting Bradley, you can watch where after a mine explodes, an entire infantry team with the crew climbs out of a Bradley.
                    The fire does not flare up quickly, but the detonation of the ammunition can happen instantly and no one will be able to leave the BMP.
                    1. +3
                      31 August 2025 14: 47
                      Quote: Mars
                      You can

                      No need to switch to "you"

                      Quote: Mars
                      detonation of the BC can occur instantly

                      Can't 25mm shells detonate?

                      Quote: Mars
                      where after a mine explosion from a Bradley, an entire infantry crew climbs out

                      Here is a video where you can see the secondary detonation of the Bradley ammunition https://vkvideo.ru/video-221272416_456249234?ref_domain=yastatic.net

                      In combat, no one carries ATGMs inside the hull except for the BMP-3

                      There's a photo of a Bradley destroyed by an internal explosion and a TEU lying nearby...
                      1. -1
                        31 August 2025 17: 42
                        25 mm shells do not tear apart an infantry fighting vehicle, and if you transport ammunition inside an infantry fighting vehicle, there will be a big bang. It is strange that such obvious things have to be explained. In war, people understand much faster because their lives and the completion of the mission depend on it.
                      2. +2
                        31 August 2025 22: 01
                        Quote: Mars
                        25mm shells don't tear apart IFVs

                        So why did the Bradley fly apart after hitting the mine in the link above? Why did these other two Bradleys fly apart?
                        https://vk.com/video-107986197_456241485
                        https://ok.ru/video/8451137931876

                        You said above that holy delirium does not tear into pieces?
                      3. -1
                        31 August 2025 22: 19
                        Because they carried ammunition inside. Even a BMP-25, which is worse armored, won't be torn to pieces by 3 mm Bradley shells.
                2. +3
                  31 August 2025 13: 52
                  You still haven't answered why you are not outraged by 152mm ATGMs inside the hull of the BMP, but are outraged by 100mm shells. After all, if even one such munition explodes, the probability is close to 100% that everyone inside the BMP will die.
                  1. -4
                    31 August 2025 14: 17
                    Because in combat, no one carries ATGMs inside the hull except for the BMP-3, where the ATGMs are launched through the gun
        2. -1
          1 September 2025 16: 46
          rather, we need an infantry fighting vehicle based on the T-90 tank with a 57-mm machine gun and more DZ and ceramics all around
          and from drones there is no barbecue - but a machine gun mount with a 12-mm smoothbore machine gun coupled with a KAZ (there are already 4 types of cartridges: 25, 50, 75, 100 meters)
          oh yeah. the starting point is to first install the Afghanit KAZ against ATGMs, RPGs and UASs
          just not 10 but ideally at least 50 mortars
    2. +3
      30 August 2025 17: 14
      And this is precisely why the BMP-3 is often completely unloaded with 100mm shells.
      1. +3
        30 August 2025 19: 43
        Or they unload troops and use the 100mm as a light tank for firing from the ZOP. Although, in my opinion, the same Nona would be better here.
  6. -2
    30 August 2025 07: 02
    The BMP that I would go into battle on is an ekranoplan, mines are much cheaper than others, and flying at an altitude of 1 meter at a speed of 200 km/h is difficult for drones to catch, I drew a sketch of such a machine, with two diesel engines from the T6, I see no obstacles to completing such a project at the beginning of the war hi
    1. +1
      30 August 2025 14: 21
      Quote: air wolf
      The BMP I would go into battle in is an ekranoplan,

      Are you kidding?:)))
      1. -2
        31 August 2025 19: 30
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: air wolf
        The BMP I would go into battle in is an ekranoplan,

        Are you kidding?:)))

        If he doesn't joke/make fun - it's bad.....
        He doesn't know that the USSR's experiments showed that it's a good thing - but only where the enemy has machine guns at most.
  7. +3
    30 August 2025 07: 59
    The author constantly emphasizes the speed of movement of the BMP on the battlefield. I wonder where he saw "high mobility" of armored vehicles on the battlefield? And the author also omits the class of armored vehicles: Tigers, Lynxes, etc.
    1. +2
      30 August 2025 10: 16
      in fact, it is not only the author who misses them, although the KOASS armored vehicles 4x4 and 6x6 in protection type stanag 4569/3a and 2+ are in great demand providing protection from 7.62x51/54r (almost all portable firearms) and some kind of anti-mine, moving in space up to 4 (8 in 6x6) leather bags on the battlefield, having mobility comparable to civilian cars (no one in combat and near-combat conditions and during transfer above a hundred does not go)
      at the same time they are quite cheap and do not require training and maintenance, since the skill is easily transferred from passenger cars and are capable of carrying/transporting the same FPV in different versions
  8. +4
    30 August 2025 08: 20
    I can imagine the cost of this wonder weapon...
    And some UAVs simply won’t let him freely ride through the minefield.
    I read the beginning, after
    Russian four-stroke diesel engine 12N360 in the simplest version of the A-85-3A model series with a power of only 1200 hp.

    finished.
    1. +2
      30 August 2025 23: 44
      Quote: Konnick
      I read the beginning, after
      Russian four-stroke diesel engine 12N360 in the simplest version of the A-85-3A model series with a power of only 1200 hp.
      finished.

      It's in vain, it gets even more fun further on.
  9. -2
    30 August 2025 10: 09
    It seems that everything is moving towards the merger of IFVs and MBTs into some kind of universal platform. There are many such attempts and more and more, so the direction is correct. The question is more about armament, there is no clear solution yet, but it is certain that a lot of it and different ones are needed.
  10. 0
    30 August 2025 10: 43
    General considerations.

    1. Armor won't protect you from a drone. None.
    2. Weak armor will not protect against ATGMs and RPGs.
    3. The armor will protect against small arms and artillery fragments.

    Based on this, a BMP-type vehicle can be useful for work in a zone of 600 meters and closer to the enemy trench line, in the absence of RPGs.

    But she won't get there because of the UAV.

    Hence.... what
    1. 0
      30 August 2025 19: 45
      Therefore - a barbecue and a bigger one.
    2. -1
      30 August 2025 22: 54
      Therefore... what
      Give the armored fighters shotguns and let them defend against drones. Since no one wants to develop a KAZ...
  11. +5
    30 August 2025 10: 50
    Seryozhka from Malaya Bronnaya and Vitka from Makhova
    The street is called Mokhovaya. There used to be (17th-18th century) shopping arcades there where they sold moss to seal cracks in wooden houses.
  12. +1
    30 August 2025 12: 20
    It seems to me that at the present time it is more relevant to create small armored vehicles, the size of a car, for one or two fighters, armored and equipped like an armored personnel carrier-infantry fighting vehicle, with good speed. After all, the widespread use of FPV drones has led to the fact that small groups of 2-3 people are now going into attack. These two people quickly moved forward in this armored vehicle, dismounted and began to carry out the task.
  13. +2
    30 August 2025 12: 54
    Hmm. Quite a good and extensive analysis of the BMP of today. The maximum possible sides and facets of problems and qualities are touched upon.
    But there is one indisputable vital parameter - universality, which techies say: - "Everything universal is worse than special."
    So.
    - Chassis (let's assume), that due to the economy and already mastered units, one can agree and accept what is described by the author - excellent, because the economy is also the most important parameter.
    - The engine, like on the Armata, for example, seems compact, but according to rumors and criticism on the Internet, there are problems with it where access to units and minor repairs is limited, especially to the cylinders at the bottom, and the dampness of the new design, and therefore it is not quite ice and it would be better to make it universal with tank engines (of previous generations, even from old ones), but overhauled T-72 (for the time being) with the possibility of installing more modern ones in the future. This is closer to universality and greater possibilities for replacing them with other types of engines (I don’t know which ones, the future will show).
    And here about its placement in the center of the BMP. The engine as a massive iron part is already armor for the crew and therefore it is more expedient to place it in the front of the vehicle, protecting at least the driver from a frontal attack by anti-aircraft missiles or a tank crowbar. In addition, replacing the engine if it is on the periphery is much more convenient and faster.
    - Armament. Well, there are many things you can do here and it will be different for everyone, and if so, then you don’t need to focus on the specific 75 mm cannon on top of the IFV, but make a universal rotating mechanism on which you can put anything depending on the specialization of this IFV (for different branches of the armed forces there can be different equipment for different tasks). And yes, there can be a 75 mm cannon, and a 57, and twin ones like on the BMPT and even 23, Shilka and so on up to aircraft NURS, and all sorts of mobile air defense or quickly reloadable anti-tank missiles. And by the way, as a result of moving the engine to the front of the vehicle, additional space will appear on the side of the engine (left and right), which will be very useful and certainly possible to install machine guns and grenade launchers with ammunition, which will increase the combat potential.
    - Crew and landing force. If the engine is in the front, the crew is shifted to the center and therefore united in a common space with the landing force, which is good because the crew will be able to leave the vehicle not only through the hatches on top, but also through the rear landing exit. Also, the interaction of the crew with the landing force is more effective in a common space, and the detonation of an IFV on a mine is less traumatic for the crew since it is no longer in front, but closer to the center.
    - General wishes (comments). It is necessary to think over the option with a barbecue from the FPV or instead of the barbecue install some kind of volumetric barrier so that the detonation of the FPV charge is at a distance from the armor in order to reduce the damaging factor, and this is either on the armor itself or on the rotating turret (universal rotating mechanism). In addition, there is no analysis of active counteraction systems for these FPV. And these can be (in the future) laser systems with a radar (2-3 per vehicle for duplication and efficiency) or rotating martyrs like KAZ shooting pellets in the direction of the FPV, by the way, they can also create a smoke screen. In addition, how to launch a drone from a vehicle for reconnaissance or destruction of the enemy without going outside and how to land it back and where?
    - Conclusion (summary). It will not be possible to make a universal machine for all cases of war, but as a universal basis - yes. Especially if many parts and weapons will be assembled from other equipment (from tanks, as the author suggests), which will simplify and speed up repairs and supplies. Buoyancy can be replaced by overcoming water bodies like a tank along the bottom with a pipe on top, but this is up to the customer.
  14. +1
    30 August 2025 13: 06
    And in 1970, the Marder IFV was released with an excellent 20-mm automatic cannon Rheinmetall Mk 20 Rh-202 (firing range on ground targets 2,5 km; muzzle velocity of the projectile 1044 m/s). Even based on hindsight, the author does not quite understand this choice, because already in those years the German military-industrial complex had access to the 35-mm Oerlikon KDA cannon (we know it better as part of the ZSU Gepard, which entered service with the Bundeswehr in 1973).

    The reason why the Germans chose the 20mm is very simple. Like the Anglo-Saxons, they conducted a REAL analysis of the use of APCs in WWII and drew the right conclusions.
    These are: a tank is a tank, and an armored personnel carrier (BMP) is an armored personnel carrier.
    The bigger the gun, the less space there is for troops and the more they will pound you, like a tank, with everything they have. angry

    Therefore, 20 mm is even a lot, Richard Simpkin in his monographs recommends an automatic grenade launcher and a machine gun (7,62 mm - 12,7 mm). ZSU Gepard is an anti-aircraft gun, 35 mm is the best there. Yes

    But the stupidest thing is to cram 100 mm into an APC, and even together with 30. This really has no analogues)).

    The result of this whole disaster is simple - in the USSR, as now, they were never able to create a normal armored personnel carrier in which the troops ride INSIDE.
    Well, for us this is also the experience of the Great Patriotic War and a tradition)). soldier
    1. +2
      30 August 2025 19: 50
      And this Richard would try storming the city with 12,7mm. The same Mariupol stormed a new armored personnel carrier with a 30mm module and it is better in literally everything. And certainly in breaking through walls and dugouts.
      1. -1
        2 September 2025 13: 19
        And this Richard would try storming the city with 12,7mm. The same Mariupol stormed a new armored personnel carrier with a 30mm module and it is better in literally everything. And certainly in breaking through walls and dugouts.

        This is what the tank was designed for. wink Simpkin wrote two books: "Tank Warfare" and "Motorized Infantry" - the basis of Anglo-Saxon tactics.

        We had an article by Gregory A. Pickell on btvt.info.
    2. +1
      30 August 2025 21: 58
      Quote: Arzt
      The result of this whole disaster is simple - in the USSR, as now, they were never able to create a normal armored personnel carrier in which the troops ride INSIDE.

      I understand the photo here as an illustration of the thesis about "inside". I don't know what German coffins have to do with it, there is only one Soviet APC here, in the center. And then I recommend the author of the comment to count the fighters on the armor of the BTR-80 and tell how he is going to shove them all inside. wassat
      1. -2
        2 September 2025 13: 14
        I understand the photo here as an illustration of the thesis about "inside". I don't know what German coffins have to do with it, there is only one Soviet APC here, in the center. And then I recommend the author of the comment to count the fighters on the armor of the BTR-80 and tell how he is going to shove them all inside. wassat

        Given that the Germans are riding INSIDE the coffins, protected from the sides, they are exposed to the greatest possible damage.
        I won’t even try in the BTR-80, that’s the point. wink
        1. 0
          2 September 2025 21: 18
          Quote: Arzt
          Given that the Germans are riding INSIDE the coffins, protected from the sides, they are exposed to the greatest possible damage.

          Did you know that German SDKs have very low sides? And when landing normally, half of the German sticks out. They had to bend down a lot and even their helmets glow. wassat
          1. 0
            2 September 2025 22: 23
            Did you know that German SDKs have very low sides? And when landing normally, half of the German sticks out. They had to bend down a lot and even then their helmets glow wassat

            And yet. A fragment, a bullet - in 90% of cases everything is on the side, on top only at the end of the flight.
  15. +8
    30 August 2025 13: 15
    twice the number of BMP-1s with a weak 73-mm smoothbore gun
    At the time of the BMP-1's creation, there was the Malyutka ATGM. It has a 500-meter dead zone. To close it, the BMP-1 was equipped with an analogue of the SPG-9. This is not a weak gun, it is actually a grenade launcher.
    Even based on hindsight, the author does not quite understand this choice, because already in those years the German military-industrial complex had access to the 35-mm Oerlikon KDA cannon (we know it better as part of the ZSU "Gepard", which entered service with the Bundeswehr in 1973).
    The caliber of a gun is determined not by its coolness, but by the tasks it solves. Putting an anti-aircraft gun on an IFV means being left without pants (they are very expensive, and IFVs need a lot of them).
    The latest version of the Terminator is not inferior to modern versions of Russian main battle tanks in terms of weight and protection, although initially it even surpassed them in these parameters.
    The latest version of the Terminator has little in common with that BMPT concept. It was supposed to have multiple observation channels and multiple engagement channels, even at the cost of reducing the power of the main armament. The BMPT will be if the crew has four shooters, each with their own gun or KPVT with AGS.
    On the other hand, the relatively new wheeled BTR-82A, with an initial weight of 15,4 tons, firstly, surpasses the first and second models of the BMP in this parameter, which may indirectly indicate some better protection for the crew and troops with comparable armament and mobility, and secondly, against the background of foreign analogues, it remains one of the lightest.
    So what did this additional armor protect against that the BMP did not protect against? Or did it simply increase the weight of the vehicle?
    Thus, the golden mean for the Russian heavy infantry fighting vehicle can be taken as a weight limit of 35 tons.
    Bliiii ...
    In this weight category, you will have to completely abandon the amphibious nature of the vehicle.
    Why? Sealing is still necessary, and buoyancy can be provided by separately transportable external tanks.
    The basis is a simple formula of three components, each of which represents the relationship of interrelated specific characteristics of the machine.
    Stupid formula. Sorry.
    Well, it’s indecent to keep domestic developments on the engine for the Armata platform under wraps for years.
    Everything would be fine, but Armita is not on the battlefield because of this engine. Besides, you will leave the country without pants: the engine is very expensive, and each motorized rifle squad needs one BMP (or did you really think that the BMP-1 was made light so that it could float, and not so that it could make tens of thousands of them?)
    The combined power unit of the engine and automatic transmission is located in the center of the armored hull under the remotely controlled weapon module (RCWM).
    Why? A very bad idea. They did it in the BMP-3 because it was converted from an amphibious tank, but why do it in the new vehicle?
    if possible, units and parts of existing T-80 and T-90 main battle tanks that are mass-produced and mastered by military-industrial complex enterprises.
    If you take the engine from Armata, then take the chassis from Armata, otherwise it will turn out really bad.
    In my opinion, the 100mm rifled gun/launcher 2A70 does not have any fundamental advantages over the 2A28 Grom gun and its extended version 2A41 Zarnitsa, other than those that come with an increased caliber by definition.
    The 100mm low ballistics gun is a unique means of influencing enemy trenches. There is nothing better for this now (except mortars, perhaps).
    If we remember that it is mid-2025, then we can confidently assume the reason for the indifference of the command of the Armed Forces to the initiative developments of the industry of a 57-millimeter caliber gun, and, most likely, this can be explained by the lack of progress in the development of modern, in-demand high-tech ammunition that could clearly demonstrate the advantages of the new system over existing ones.
    The military simply understands that the 57mm caliber elegantly combines the shortcomings of smaller and larger caliber guns (small ammunition, reduced rate of fire, small number of fragments and weak high-explosive effect of the projectile) without any fundamental advantages.
    With a weight of 55 tons, the vehicle’s armament with a 57mm automatic cannon causes a feeling of discomfort, as if the BRDM-2’s main armament were a 5,45mm machine gun!
    The caliber is determined by the tasks, by the tasks! Not by the steepness.
    The planned range was up to 500 km and a fuel reserve of more than two cubic meters - why this gigantomania?
    Because it's war. There may be problems with refueling (or if you refuel, they'll shut you down). 500 km is the standard range for Soviet equipment.
    Preference must be given to the combination of long-range supersonic cumulative ATGM "Ataka" and the irresistible power at short combat distances of sub-caliber projectiles with a uranium core of the 75-mm gun on the new vehicle.
    Why the hell? It's not a pity to waste an ATGM on a Western IFV. It's not a pity for a tank either.
    1. -1
      30 August 2025 14: 07
      Excellent. Nothing to add. Except perhaps a clarification. There are different guns for one caliber. There is an anti-aircraft gun for 57 mm. And there is also a LShO. In essence, the grenade launcher is overgrown. And it has a lot of advantages in working against infantry and non-capital shelters.
      1. -1
        30 August 2025 18: 18
        Quote: garri-lin
        Excellent. Nothing to add.
        Thank you. But there is something to add: why do we need a heavy IFV at all? Why drag people to a place where tank armor is needed for survival? Especially since an IFV with such armor will be considerably heavier than a tank: it needs to properly protect the troop compartment, and it should be quite large (otherwise everyone will climb on the armor again).
        Take the same Bradley - it is not a heavy IFV, although it weighs a lot. And it can be knocked out by everything that should knock out an IFV. What's the point of its weight then? The Bradley burns less often than the BMP-2 and BMP-3, the troops survive there more often? So we need to make a new normal IFV, which has measures to minimize damage from fuel fires, ammunition explosions, land mines, etc. Let it weigh as much as necessary. If it does not meet the maximum weight or dimensions (it does not fit into the plane) - develop measures to create modular protection (standard modules with armor, grilles, DZ blocks, barbecues, etc., installed in standard mounts by the crew and troops, perhaps provide some kind of winch), the main thing is that the chassis is initially designed for this.
        The new IFV should have a ramp, an exit on 3 sides, the ability to drive with open hatches and places for comfortable and safe boarding on the armor, if the inside is like now. And a place (box) for platoon gear.
  16. +1
    30 August 2025 13: 58
    They burn tanks. They burn everything that can be burned. The armor is losing. No matter how heavily armored the BMP is, it will still be burned.
    Only active defense against drones can radically change the situation.
  17. 0
    30 August 2025 14: 32
    But
    To finally close the topic of the TBMP air defense, we will reveal some intrigue about its armament. Along with the large-caliber gun, twin large-caliber Kord machine guns will be installed on the left and right, and the landing force on the route will use two automatic shotguns to prevent drone attacks, which will be included in the vehicle's ammunition and stored in a box on the roof of the landing compartment.

    nothing was said about protection from enemy UAVs. Until the problem of protection from UAVs is solved radically, that is, each combat vehicle must be able to repel an attack, at the moment, up to 100 UAVs, any IFV, no matter what armor and weapons it has, will be a Mass Grave of Infantry.
    That is - the level of armor protection should be no less, and preferably more than that of a medium tank (delivery of infantry to zero), dynamic + active protection, capable of fighting drones, no less than 100 pieces + at the moment - maximum "omangalization". Otherwise, the infantry will not get out of the pre-Sumerian period, and all their junk will be dragged 5-10 km to zero on their backs under attacks from fpv drones and a rain of cassettes.
  18. -4
    30 August 2025 15: 40
    Where is the engine located in this BMP?
    In front are two crew members, a driver and a UAV operator, behind them are two more people, then a turret module....
    There should be a troop compartment for at least 4-6 people behind the turret, but where do you plan to install the engine?
    1. +1
      30 August 2025 17: 45
      Quote: assault
      Where is the engine located in this BMP?

      In the center, under the tower
      1. -2
        30 August 2025 20: 59
        Cympak,
        Under the turret there is a basket with ammunition and turret rotation drives. If you are interested, look at the photo to see how far down from the turret the round drum descends.
        A Zhiguli engine won't fit under it....
        1. +1
          31 August 2025 05: 51
          Quote: assault
          Cympak,
          Under the turret there is a basket with ammunition and turret rotation drives. If you are interested, look at the photo to see how far down from the turret the round drum descends.
          A Zhiguli engine won't fit under it....

          Well, the author sees it that way, that's what he writes in his article. Read it again, you'll see for yourself.
          1. +1
            31 August 2025 15: 01
            Quote: Cympak
            A Zhiguli engine won't fit under it....

            By the way, if the DU is in the form of a serial hybrid, then the engine, the function of which will be to recharge the batteries, can be very compact. A serial hybrid DU generally provides wide possibilities for the layout of armored vehicles
  19. -1
    30 August 2025 16: 05
    It's rather strange to think about what kind of IFV we need against the backdrop of the refusal to use it on the front lines on both sides. Maybe we should move from the paradigm of "armored battles" to the paradigm of "network wars with drones"?
    1. +1
      30 August 2025 18: 03
      There is still a long way to go before the wars between terminators, in the SVO the infantry is the basis of assault units and in general the basis of the entire army! Art, drones of various kinds and tanks are all assistants to the infantry. And the infantry definitely needs its own transport that meets the realities of the 21st century!
    2. 0
      30 August 2025 22: 05
      It is rather strange to think about what kind of IFV we need in the context of the refusal to use it at the front on both sides.


      The SVO is an anomaly, our main adversary NATO is actively purchasing heavy and medium infantry fighting vehicles, as well as armored personnel carriers, there is no need to follow the beggars from the Armed Forces of Ukraine, who live off handouts from NATO.
      Having lost all their armored vehicles and almost all of NATO, they are forced to fight with infantry. We should not follow their example, but rather seek and invent our own more effective methods of conducting combat operations using the armored vehicles we have...
      1. 0
        31 August 2025 13: 09
        Quote: assault
        It is rather strange to think about what kind of IFV we need in the context of the refusal to use it at the front on both sides.


        The SVO is an anomaly, our main adversary NATO is actively purchasing heavy and medium infantry fighting vehicles, as well as armored personnel carriers, there is no need to follow the beggars from the Armed Forces of Ukraine, who live off handouts from NATO.
        Having lost all their armored vehicles and almost all of NATO, they are forced to fight with infantry. We should not follow their example, but rather seek and invent our own more effective methods of conducting combat operations using the armored vehicles we have...

        so we sharply reduced the use of armored vehicles this spring. and the losses of soldiers. decreased. because now the BMP (any) is a "mass grave of infantry" because of drones. And diligently churning out something that may not be used - so-so (hello to airborne landings)
        1. -1
          31 August 2025 17: 51
          Quote: assault
          It is rather strange to think about what kind of IFV we need in the context of the refusal to use it at the front on both sides.

          This is a quote from Flokе, I just responded to it myself.
  20. 0
    30 August 2025 17: 53
    Perhaps the main problem with this project is that the author is designing a separate IFV, but it is necessary to proceed from the tasks and combat use of a motorized rifle unit. It is necessary to remember that on the battlefield, the IFV does not operate alone, but as part of a unit, which in addition to it also has tanks, motorized riflemen and attached reinforcement units (artillery, UAVs, ATGM, etc.).
    At the very least, we need to think about the composition and armament of a motorized rifle squad on an infantry fighting vehicle, or better yet, an entire company.
  21. +1
    30 August 2025 19: 28
    The BMP3 is a light tank that they tried to stuff paratroopers into. This concept was controversial even when it first appeared and was essentially pushed through.
    The result is a shitty tank without armor and with a ridiculous half-gun/half-mortar in the spirit of the BMP1 and a shitty BMP in which the troops sit like a grayling and dismount literally like jumping out of a trash can. Drag the wounded inside? Hmmm..
    The forward machine guns are a throwback to World War II - they only shoot forward, but they weaken the front armor. The two front hatches for the landing force were also funny - getting in there in armor is literally a clown act. And what if it catches fire? A clown act.
    Rapid dismounting of troops in a BMP3 is essentially impossible, and the troops must dismount by literally jumping on the roof, dodging bullets.
    For all this we need to say THANKS to the chief designer, who promoted all these ideas and who, by the way, is also proud of them.

    My opinion about the BMP is known - the BMP is based on the T90 or new T80 tank bogie. It is not difficult to whip up a new bogie from scratch, and the spare parts will be identical to the tank.

    The main problem of the BMP3 is the lack of modernization reserves, which is clearly visible in the suspension and narrow tracks. The track of the same Bradley is almost identical to the T90 - here you can see the reserve.

    Therefore, having essentially a ready-made T90 light tank on the conveyor - there is no need to invent a new IFV from scratch. Take the bare armored hull of the T90 purely in steel, how much is there - +/- 80 mm, without any extras and so on, and already on this bare hull hang a removable Relikt + additional ERA like Kaktus. On top of that, weld on ERA.
    At the back there is a hinged ramp, on top there is either a 30mm cannon and ATGMs, or 57mm - it all changes.
    Crew: driver, commander, gunner + 8 landing personnel.

    As a result, we will get a BMP on a proven T90 base and tested spare parts, and a normal engine. The weight will be about 30 tons.

    Give the BMP3 to the Airborne Forces and Marines, they might need the swimming. But I would remove the 100mm cannon, making it 30mm + ATGM. And finally introduce the 30mm APCS.
    1. +1
      30 August 2025 23: 08
      Take the bare armored hull of the T90, purely in steel... There is a swing ramp at the back, ...

      The T90's armored hull does not have a ramp at the rear.
      1. -3
        31 August 2025 02: 41
        This is obvious. That's why I wrote "based on T90" and not "T72", because T90 is still being produced and the T90 hull can be welded from scratch in any configuration - for example, in the BMP configuration, unifying it technically with T90.
    2. -1
      31 August 2025 00: 05
      BMP-3 is a light tank and for its 20 tons it is even excellent
      what kind of drug addict nonsense is this about quickly dismounting under a hail of bullets and probably somewhere nearby an RPG is flying at a motionless BMP that the landing party forced to land in front of an unsuppressed enemy
      as a result, the shot-up landing force running out from behind the stern of any BMP, be it a Bradley or a Marder, and the BMP itself burned out due to the stupid use of the BMP as an assault armored personnel carrier

      there will never be an infantry fighting vehicle based on a tank, even the USSR couldn't afford it, and even more so in poor Russia, there's barely enough money to supply the army with T-90s, and here let's produce fewer tanks, which are very necessary, in favor of some useless Frankenstein
      During World War II, the Western Allies made assault armored personnel carriers based on a tank without a turret, but only because they had produced a shitload of tanks, lost thousands, and still had enough tanks
      and in Russia things are not so good with tanks, the Soviet legacy is ending
      and decide already, there is not much space in the tank, inside there is either infantry with a machine gun, or a cannon with shells and a maximum of 3-4 paratroopers

      30mm BOPS, hahahaha, naive)))
      1. -3
        31 August 2025 02: 57
        1) 20 tons is an excellent weight. But not for an infantry fighting vehicle.
        2) It is enough to look at the dismounting from the BMP3 and the height of the side to understand everything about the hail of bullets. Especially through the front hatches.
        3) The USSR could afford anything, for example, to produce T55 until the end of the 1980s or to cut up 1,000 of the first T64 or to have 3 MBTs at once, etc., right up to the navy and aviation.
        He could afford 30,000 T72 tanks, but not 5,000 heavy infantry fighting vehicles? Although their heaviness, as for me, is relative.
        I will say more - initially the Terminator was conceived as an IFV, but the collapse of the Union prevented its implementation. And if you read the memoirs, they did not want to accept the BMP3 into service precisely because of insufficient armor and controversial decisions in the form of the location of the engine, complicating the dismounting of troops and the 100 mm cannon. But there was pressure from the outside to accept it - the result is known.

        4) The BOPS for the autocannon is on the Bradley (and it is standard there) and in many places...even on the 30mm for the BMP3 it has been there since the early 1990s, but it has not been put into production.
        1. -3
          31 August 2025 14: 42
          Of course it's great, Russia needs cheap and mass-produced BMPs and APCs, and if cheap it means light
          choose either light armored vehicles for the majority, or the elite Moscow unit on something heavy, and all the other regions cut through in pickups and trucks

          infantry cannot be dismounted under a hail of bullets, this will immediately result in killed and wounded, any infantry fighting vehicle must stop in a safe place without the risk of being hit by grenade launchers and land troops, who must suddenly and just as calmly deploy in a chain, decide on the direction and object of attack and begin to carry out a combat mission
          T-34-85 and IS-2 were in service until 1992, were in reserve and what, since they produced T-55, it means either for export or for remote places of the vast motherland
          T-64 is a first line tank, T-72 is a simplified mobilization tank plus for export, T-80 is a replacement for T-64, everything is logical, it's just that some people don't know how to think and talk all sorts of nonsense without knowing the issue
          and the heavy infantry fighting vehicles of the USSR were not needed, there is a tank and not just one thing, but tank platoons and companies that will crush everyone with their fire, and the infantry fighting vehicles will fly up behind them, which will cover the landing force with their guns from those threats that the tanks did not eliminate, that's all
          all the ideas about heavy infantry fighting vehicles stem from the inability of tanks to perform their tasks, or the unwillingness of the command to lose expensive tanks, it is better to send cheap infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers

          when they thought about the bmpt, at first there was a temptation to put troops in it, but they immediately abandoned this and it is obvious, a tank chassis is not rubber, either infantry with machine guns, or guns, machine guns, grenade launchers and a crew that services all this
          By the way, the second version of object 781 is armed with a turret similar to the BMP-3
          The BMP is essentially an anti-infantry tank, which, together with other tanks, performs the combat mission of clearing the way for the BMP and BTR following behind

          what kind of nonsense is this, the combat weight of the BMP-3 is the optimal parameter for transportation by plane, helicopter, for swimming, sufficient armor and mobility
          A 30-ton infantry fighting vehicle is impossible in principle for the Soviet army; it would immediately have a tank engine, a tank transmission, a tank chassis, etc.
          colossal costs with insignificant emissions, especially considering that the BMP needs to be produced in tens of thousands
          Well, NATO will switch from 20-30mm guns to 40-50mm and will continue to penetrate new Soviet infantry fighting vehicles...
          don't touch the BMP-3 engine, it's where it should be, any BMP and its troops go into battle SEPARATELY!!!!!!! and the troops should be in front, conduct reconnaissance, provide target designation, and not let the grenade launchers stick their heads out, and all because any BMP is half-blind and vulnerable to RPGs

          Well, for the idiots, everything is the same: their armored infantry fighting vehicle must rush forward at full speed, fly into enemy positions, if they are lucky not to catch an anti-tank mine, stop, start landing troops through the ramp, catch an RPG, it catches fire, and they fire at the running troops with all their guns
          the landing party is in shock, they ran out of the dark closed box along the ramp, half of them are already dead and wounded, where are we? where to run? what to do? where is the enemy?
          the ammunition in the BMP is burning and exploding and you need to run away from it, but which way should you crawl?
          this is what the correct use of the correct bmp looks like from the words of idiots

          NATO has been churning out small-caliber BOPs for a long time, they have been doing this for a long time, since in the USSR they only churned out BOPs for tanks, so in impoverished Russia there are no plans to produce small-caliber BOPs, the damned communists did not bother to create such production before the collapse of the Union, so there is none in Russia
          1. -1
            1 September 2025 02: 53
            We can talk for a long time, but now the best way is to unload the landmines and cover ourselves with steel sheets and a barbecue. However, this will not help against mines and anti-tank missiles, etc.

            https://www.youtube.com/shorts/uJcGBkRCNho
            1. 0
              2 September 2025 23: 45
              OFS does not need to be uploaded
              steel sheets are more of a placebo than real protection
        2. -1
          1 September 2025 03: 20
          If they had improved it and implemented [instead of the initially unsuccessful] mechanism for changing the clearance, the “inconvenience” would have been reduced by half!
          And getting into/out of the BMP 1/2 is, in my opinion, no more convenient (and the interior of the landing compartment is ominous with fuel tanks with acid batteries).
          1. -2
            1 September 2025 04: 19
            All this equipment is for people 1,6 meters tall without body armor.
  22. Jan
    +1
    30 August 2025 20: 06
    What the author is right about is that we need a new infantry vehicle! We need a new concept developed for new tasks... however, the tasks remain the same, but the solutions need to be changed in accordance with reality... and here everything is sad!
  23. -2
    30 August 2025 22: 14
    The author wrote a lot of letters and numbers, but somehow didn't get around to writing the main thing. Why does he need a heavy infantry fighting vehicle? What kind of weapon does he want to protect his vehicle from, and why from this one?

    Judging by the armor penetration tables, we can assume that the only thing the author needed 40 mm armor for was protection from enemy IFVs. But here, too, I immediately want to ask a second question: how often have we had to observe or hear about at least real battles between IFVs? Over almost 4 years, I can recall three or four cases, the rest are a sad encounter with a tank or ATGM, or an even sadder run over a mine. The author's TBMP will not help from either the first or the second. I won't even mention UAVs, now even getting to the LBS is a big problem, the author did not even hint how the TBMP will help from this misfortune.
  24. -1
    30 August 2025 23: 41
    I have mastered it THIS... text.
    The author confuses everyone from the start. The title says "BMP", but in the middle of the text it becomes clear from the fog that in fact BMP T == TBMP (and a heavy BMP is not a mass-produced vehicle, although the author peddles the theme of mass production and saving rubles on each torsion bar).
    Calculating the "armor perimeter" based on overall dimensions is complete nonsense.
    The layout drawing is at the level of "a fourth-grader in a notebook in a box" [where is the rotation mechanism placed !?], and already prescribes the borrowed rollers and balancers.
    Instead of clear technical justifications - theatrical rhetoric
    The 57mm caliber causes a feeling of discomfort, as if the BRDM-2's main armament was a 5,45mm machine gun!

    Having mastered the text, I correct my first statement about the project:
    The author tries to compact the infantry squad into heavy tank.
  25. -1
    30 August 2025 23: 46
    What nonsense did I just read?
    Who doesn't make fun of the BMP these days? Some want a Bradley, others a Barbariska.
    but for some reason everyone suddenly forgot about the existence of such a type of armored vehicle as a main battle tank, which should now be somewhere in a secondary role, sitting in the background and not being noticed
    and some kind of wunderwaffe comes to the forefront, and the landing force will jump up and land, and will soak the infantry in the trenches and will knock down all the armored vehicles, in short, a jack of all trades.
    During World War II, tank units advanced in three echelons, the first two were medium and heavy tanks, the third were light tanks and self-propelled guns with infantry clearing out everything that survived the first two
    after the war everything is the same, tanks are in the lead, followed by infantry fighting vehicles, which replaced light tanks and self-propelled guns with infantry landing troops
    now we've reached the point where tanks are no longer used, they're too expensive toys, and so they send in purely infantry fighting vehicles for assaults, without tanks, without anything, is this a normal situation? of course not
    There should always be a tank in front of the BMP that will take the brunt of anti-tank weapons, suppress firing points and allow the BMP to do its job calmly

    let's get back to the article and here the author went wild, he designs an infantry fighting vehicle that will surpass even serial tanks in cost, if we try to save tanks so as not to suffer unnecessary losses of expensive vehicles, then with such an infantry fighting vehicle, which costs as much as an airplane wing, the situation will be the same, few will be able to see it in real life, especially the enemy
    for the Russian army even the BMP-3 is a very expensive vehicle, with an aluminum body, automatic transmission, weapons system, the best option is the BMP-2, because it is cheap, cheap and cheap again, Western 30-40 ton BMPs will never shine for the Russian army, it is expensive even compared to the BMP-3
    I don't understand the attacks on the BMP-1 Grom gun, it's a tribute to the fashion of the 50-60s, then everyone went crazy with recoilless guns, the Americans even planned to shoot a nuclear charge from a recoilless gun
    The 100mm BMP-3 cannon is a good option for picking off infantry in trenches, in houses, especially on the upper floors.
    People who want to arm the BMP with 57-76mm high-impulse guns with classic unitary cartridges clearly don't realize how unfriendly they are with the layout of any armored vehicle, separate loading rounds on our tanks did not appear because of a good life
    in the same way, people forget that, unlike the 100mm BMP-3 shot, in such cartridges the cartridge case with gunpowder takes up most of the entire cartridge, which guarantees that when such a BMP is hit, there will be a very colorful fireworks display from the burning gunpowder in the cartridge cases, and these unitary cartridges will be shoved everywhere possible to ensure a reasonable ammunition load
    an X-shaped diesel engine for a thousand horses, as they say, we don’t deny ourselves anything, no one will build something like that anyway, but I still don’t understand, where is the cooling system?
    a 300 horsepower engine and a thousand horsepower engine have completely different heat output and completely different areas of radiators with fans for four-stroke diesel engines
    for gas turbine engines and two-stroke diesel engines with an ejector, a compact cooling system is required
    I laughed at the fuel tanks inside the caterpillar drive, the author knows how the suspension of a car wheel works, where the wheel not only goes down, but also goes up to the bumpers
    let him google what the dynamic travel of a support roller is

    I'm waiting for sensible projects for tanks and armored personnel carriers, which should be engaged in delivering infantry to assaults, and the infantry fighting vehicle should operate from a distance, like a self-propelled gun, which will realize its firepower by covering both tanks and armored personnel carriers
    1. -2
      31 August 2025 13: 31
      Quote: bushmaster
      I'm waiting for sensible projects for tanks and armored personnel carriers, which should be engaged in delivering infantry to assaults, and the infantry fighting vehicle should operate from a distance, like a self-propelled gun, which will realize its firepower by covering both tanks and armored personnel carriers


      Well, deliver infantry to assaults with tanks... like the Israeli "merkava"? Specifically, in our conditions, this will not work. The possible theaters of military operations for our equipment are still larger than the Middle Eastern scale. What is the cruising resource of the same "merkava"? Actually, it is not so much a tank as a mobile (partly) and heavily armored firing stronghold. And our soils will not hold such a colossus well, after all - not dense sand. So, crossing a tank and an infantry fighting vehicle (APC, if you like) is not a good idea.

      It is also not entirely clear why the BMP would be used as a self-propelled gun (it would definitely do a poor job). It is best to provide cover with firepower from a self-propelled gun, there is no need to use ersatz weapons.

      Assaults simply require preliminary preparation. The best support is MLRS, long-range artillery, attack aircraft. It is best to bring the enemy's positions to condition with drones, both air and ground. And personnel, infantry - last of all.

      Unfortunately, relying on armor as a means of delivering infantry should be recognized as a losing proposition in modern conditions. Even tanks have proven vulnerable to ubiquitous drones, and we are only at the beginning of a real drone war. It is simply impossible to create an IFV/APC that would protect against such a threat with at least 80% probability. Tales about the "invulnerable" Bradley are just tales, nothing more.
      The criterion of truth is practice and experience. And they show that at present it is not armor that rules, but the maximum possible mobility and speed. It is not for nothing that bikes and buggies have become so popular in LBS. They should be used. Equip them with good electronic warfare equipment, perhaps even attach mini-drones-defenders to them (sharpened to combat enemy drones), and if possible, create a reduced and inexpensive MANPADS to combat drones (for buggies).
      1. -2
        31 August 2025 15: 31
        tanks should not deliver infantry to assaults, we are talking about tanks starting to take an active part in assaults, and not like now, 125mm self-propelled guns for shooting from the ZOP, and infantry should be delivered to assaults by armored personnel carriers

        The BMP differs from the APC in that it has a gun with a stabilizer, a thermal imager, an anti-tank guided missile, and, in general, a pretty good fire control system.
        at the same time, it always has worse armor protection than the main battle tank, in order to realize its advantages, the BMP must operate from a distance with direct fire, preferably from cover, hitting enemy firing points exposed by infantry, without entering the grenade launcher kill zone, without the risk of being blown up by a mine, or being ambushed by enemy armored vehicles
        using acacia, carnation or even sedge for direct fire at houses and trenches, well that's a real perversion

        well, as practice shows, if you bombard the enemy with fabs, shells and other things, then the assault will happen without problems, well, since people are constantly demanding a heavy infantry fighting vehicle, it means there is insufficient preparation and was it carried out at all
        and the people don't demand that tanks be better suited for assaults, they need a heavy infantry fighting vehicle and that's it

        To protect ourselves from drones, we need our own small air defense aircraft, we need anti-aircraft missiles that can target the drone's radio signal, we need armored electronic warfare vehicles that can jam everything at a distance of two kilometers, we need grenade launchers that fire grenades with radio fuses, none of this is available yet
        everything is fine with the armored vehicles

        we need cheap light armored personnel carriers that can be built in thousands, they can hold a machine gun and that's it, they were shot down with an RPG, they hit a mine, no big deal
        on the one hand, the loss of a cheap mass-produced APC is easy to compensate for, but on the other hand, there is nothing inside such an APC except for the personal weapons of the landing force
        I see such a cheap and mass-produced armored personnel carrier like the Universal Carrier
        bulletproof armor, yamz car engine like on the tiger, simple transmission, everything
        1. -1
          1 September 2025 09: 08
          For modern tanks, direct participation in the assault on not fully developed enemy positions is disastrous. Tanks have become forced to play the role of self-propelled guns. And if armored personnel carriers have not yet lost their role as infantry delivery vehicles, they may also lose it in the near future.

          And what kind of people are demanding it? Those who are really fighting for LBS or the armchair hundred fighters who are not averse to "groveling before the West"? Like, the bourgeoisie has it, so we should give it to them too?

          Well, we have something to fight drones... as for armored vehicles, we won’t know about their real losses anytime soon.

          Well, such "cheap APCs" can be destroyed by the thousands, fortunately their real speed will not allow them to escape even from quadcopters. Cheap APCs can be mass-produced, where else can we get cheap soldiers for them? Those that exist... they should be pitied, however, and not sent to certain death in such cheap armored vehicles.
          1. -1
            2 September 2025 23: 44
            something always goes wrong, but that doesn't mean that tanks can't be used under various pretexts, and BMPs can be sent to assault because there's no one else

            armored vehicles increase the survivability of soldiers, if you are able to provide only some of the soldiers with heavy armor, and all the rest will be naked, therefore large losses
            if the majority are provided with light armor, then the survivability of the infantry as a whole is higher
            1. 0
              3 September 2025 08: 19
              Quote: bushmaster
              armored vehicles increase the survivability of soldiers, if you are able to provide only some of the soldiers with heavy armor, and all the rest will be naked, therefore large losses
              if the majority are provided with light armor, then the survivability of the infantry as a whole is higher


              The modern conflict proves the opposite. In the competition between armor and projectile, armor lost. And since it became possible to hang an effective armor-piercing weapon on a cheap drone, armor is of little use at all.
              The only way to increase the survivability of an assault soldier in such conditions is to provide him with a highly mobile means of transport, dispersal (action in small groups), which is what we observe in the LBS.
              I would add one more factor: monitoring the combat situation in real time, 24/7, with timely transmission of information about changes to each fighter.
              It would be a good idea to use unmanned airships with technical reconnaissance equipment (electronic surveillance, radars, thermal imagers) and communications systems for this purpose, which would monitor the situation along the entire line of combat contact around the clock, including reporting on the presence and location of enemy drones.
              1. 0
                5 September 2025 23: 10
                if the armor was of little use, then both sides would not have used it so much, as we see from the fpv video reports
                the only way to increase survivability is an air defense system where a drone is shot down by another drone
                every fighter will go crazy from the abundance of incoming information and the need to analyze it, but when to fight?
                the airship will be shot down by another drone
                1. 0
                  6 September 2025 08: 50
                  Not that much. Both sides are betting on mobility.
                  Information can be selected. Don't want to blind yourself to make your brain's job easier?

                  Shooting down an airship (if it is filled with helium, not hydrogen) is much more difficult than you imagine. Small arms are of little use if the airship is divided into sections, and the shell can be made self-tightening. In addition, the airship can be at an altitude that is simply inaccessible to most drones (more than 10 km).
                  1. +1
                    7 September 2025 05: 59
                    mobility does not protect against small arms and artillery, so any armor will always be preferable
                    some crap
                    the main thing is that the airship will be visible on radars, especially at 10 km, a drone will be sent to eliminate the problem
                    1. 0
                      7 September 2025 08: 54
                      Mobility protects against both small arms and artillery when combined with good reconnaissance.
                      An airship will not necessarily show up on radar if the skin is made of the right material. Many radars use the Doppler effect and simply ignore low-speed targets.
                      Most drones can't reach 10 km. But an airship can go 20 km.
                      Remind me how long it took the Yankees to shoot down a Chinese balloon that flew almost across the entire territory of the United States? And for some reason the Yankees didn't use a drone to shoot it down, they had to launch an expensive F-22 into the air.
                      1. 0
                        7 September 2025 17: 12
                        mobility helps to quickly pass through a dangerous place, but bullets from machine guns and grenade launchers are faster
                        UAVs are made from the right materials and are still visible on radars
                        the airship has a huge sail area and in order to avoid being blown away by strong winds it must have a very powerful power plant with a fuel reserve
                        in short, modern UAVs like the Inohodets will be better
                        so this is the problem of the Americans, who were unable to react promptly, but everyone saw it, because the balloon, that the airship with the sane load will be huge and will be perfectly visible just like that
                      2. 0
                        8 September 2025 08: 25
                        The terrain is not always flat as a table and natural shelters can be used. ATGMs and drones with the right payload are also faster than any armored vehicles.

                        They don't always see, and the drones' flight altitude is much more modest. Again, the Doppler effect.

                        At an altitude of 10 km or more, the winds are not that strong, and the air is very thin. Therefore, a powerful engine is not needed. The electric motor can be powered by flexible solar panels placed on the upper surface of the airship (the optimal shape is disc-shaped). In this case, the autonomous flight resource can be calculated in weeks. No drone is capable of this.
                        The unmanned airship will have a modest load - no more than 200-300 kg. Well, communications equipment, OES, mini-radar, low-power laser as a target designator, compact engine and battery. The dimensions of such an airship will be quite modest, it is not the "Hindenburg".

                        All the Yankees saw it, but they shot it down so late. And the ball was quite big, the payload was over 1 ton, and who knows how much intelligence it managed to transmit to China via satellites. For the Chinese, this operation was a success, and the Yankees were disgraced in front of the whole world.
                      3. 0
                        8 September 2025 22: 29
                        the enemy is sitting in natural cover, towards which the infantry is rushing in unarmored vehicles
                        American spy balloons have been shooting down over the USSR since the 50s, and here we are in the 21st century and we see nothing...
                        weather radars even see rain clouds, and here is some kind of ball
                        the higher you are, the heavier and more expensive equipment you need to use to see anything
                        they will shoot down just like the Bayraktars
                        so the problem is with the Americans, who couldn't make a decision for a long time
  26. 0
    31 August 2025 03: 31
    Meanwhile. I read the other day that
    Poland has begun developing a "tank" IFV CBWP, which could weigh between 42 and 48 tons.
  27. 0
    31 August 2025 07: 21
    Regarding the large discussion in the comments about weapons.
    And what is the purpose of a gun with a caliber greater than 30 mm in the current conditions? Maybe it is not needed.
    The main means of destruction in close range is the FPV drone.
    We put a container for 30 FPV Drones. It will be much lighter and will not take up space in the internal compartment.
    We may add a bomber drone with airdrops to support infantry from closed positions and work in trenches.
    And other weapons, either a 30mm cannon, or the KPVT-AGS brand, or simply KPVT.
    1. 0
      1 September 2025 02: 04
      It is necessary to take into account that the enemy will counteract drones in all possible ways. If drones fail to complete the task, what to do?
      1. 0
        5 September 2025 08: 35
        Well, they counter ATGMs, and countering guns has been developed over centuries.
        1. 0
          5 September 2025 13: 36
          They will learn to counteract drones. And 30mm will come in handy, or better yet, 57mm.
  28. 0
    31 August 2025 11: 25
    The article is very good. But the main question is the economic component. Who will do what new now. To create drawings of the machine is one thing, and quite another to establish its Syrian production. Who does not understand this. For your information, the BMP-3 was created in the early 90s and went into mass production in the troops only after the beginning of the Central Military District. Our comrades managed to sell it to many countries of the world, the Koreans bought it, remade and modernized this model. By the way, the plant producing the BMP, the Kurgan Machine-Building Plant, was almost destroyed and only a miracle stopped this action, well, and the beginning of the Central Military District breathed new life. Do not expect anything new, only a deep modernization of all units and components. Everyone knows that the German Tiger and Panther tanks were superior to our T-34 in many respects. But the main difference was that the production of tanks was set on the flow, the conveyor, the equipment was easy to maintain, operate. And most importantly, it was repairable in field conditions. And the state could economically produce a huge number of tanks.
  29. -1
    31 August 2025 13: 24
    Quote: Saxahorse
    The author wrote a lot of letters and numbers, but somehow didn't get around to writing the main thing. Why does he need a heavy infantry fighting vehicle? What kind of weapon does he want to protect his vehicle from, and why from this one?

    Judging by the armor penetration tables, we can assume that the only thing the author needed 40 mm armor for was protection from enemy IFVs. But here, too, I immediately want to ask a second question: how often have we had to observe or hear about at least real battles between IFVs? Over almost 4 years, I can recall three or four cases, the rest are a sad encounter with a tank or ATGM, or an even sadder run over a mine. The author's TBMP will not help from either the first or the second. I won't even mention UAVs, now even getting to the LBS is a big problem, the author did not even hint how the TBMP will help from this misfortune.

    I completely agree. In fact, all that is needed is a "box" for delivering infantry, protected from mines, drones and artillery fragments. The engine is in the front (an additional electric one is also possible), the ramp is in the back. The DUMB is on top with 12,7. That's all
    1. +1
      31 August 2025 23: 24
      So we are talking about the BMP, not the APC. That is, about support in combat.
      1. 0
        1 September 2025 00: 54
        assaults will now be carried out from the air by drones. fast, accurate, safe. armored personnel carriers are needed for the rapid deployment of "strengthening infantry".
        1. 0
          1 September 2025 02: 38
          It is clear why we need APCs. Here the author of the article is simply trying to formulate/bring the BMP back to life. In my opinion, it would be better to outline the problems and needs of the fighters and dance from there, rather than make an uber-plus against everything
  30. -1
    31 August 2025 18: 08
    Is it possible to connect 10 ATVs together, give control to one in front, make light protection from machine guns, light nets with reflectors from UAVs, and very quickly go where ordered?
    And as soon as the enemies began to attack, all 10 split up and began to do what they were told.
  31. -2
    31 August 2025 18: 51
    Two buggies carry as much as one infantry fighting vehicle. It would be wiser to produce thousands of armored buggies and armored cars. It seems that large and expensive armored vehicles will suffer the same fate as mammoths.
  32. -1
    31 August 2025 18: 54
    Nothing new, just marking time.
  33. -1
    1 September 2025 02: 00
    It is unclear why, in the current conditions, it is necessary to cram infantry and a decent weapon into one vehicle.
    Why can't we separate the assault APC and the assault tank with tank armor and maximum protection from everything?
  34. -1
    1 September 2025 04: 05
    BTR (light, heavy, and all) - forever!
    The BMP is an anachronism in the era of drones. And not because it is very afraid of them, but because it has become possible to reinforce each APC with a self-contained combat vehicle with guns, mortars, electronic warfare and anti-aircraft guns (not all at once, and not always, but only when needed). Such vehicles do not yet exist ("toy" carts with machine guns - not the same!), but all the components (including software) are available. The main thing is that this robot can move after the lead vehicle (or move in front, controlled by the driver of the next vehicle, and the vehicle in which the driver moves after). And all such vehicles should look indistinguishable (put false turrets and false guns on [almost] all of them).
    And in the "minimal" configuration, the APC should briskly drive past the point where the landing party quietly jumps out of the vehicle and hides. And the APC should zigzag and drive away (by itself, without a driver). Because armored vehicles sometimes do not so much [potentially] "support" as "shine" the location.
  35. 0
    1 September 2025 08: 47
    Now any armor can be defeated by drones. That's why NOBODY in the world knows what a modern IFV should be like.
    1. +1
      2 September 2025 13: 42
      Quote: egsp
      Now any armor can be defeated by drones

      Probably, someday there should appear a light (attached to the tower instead of a barbecue) ZU that will autonomously, without human intervention, shoot down attacking drones.
      As for the BMP, one option is to attach a droppable landing container to the stern of the tank with 4-5 paratroopers sitting in a row.
      1. -1
        7 September 2025 19: 18
        A drone that will autonomously, without human intervention, shoot down attacking drones.
        Watch the videos of drone operators at work carefully. Some attacks are not carried out from above. They hit you in the forehead.

        a droppable landing container with 4-5 paratroopers sitting in a row is attached to the stern of the tank

        1 will hit this container with drones from everything they have
        2 Would you climb into such a container yourself?
        3 infantry prefers to ride on armor and no punishment can drive it under armor
  36. +1
    5 September 2025 10: 44
    I won't say anything about the armament of the TBMP, but the level of protection should be somewhere close to the latest Bradley variants. Swimming is not necessary. But it is important to understand that mobility and a number of active capabilities associated with infantry support are now more important than protection, because when artillery shells fly in, no one cares how much armor you have. Also, the TBMP needs protection from mines and small guided bombs from above.
    In terms of emphasis, I would moderately protect against kinetics and focus more on protection against cumulative and high-explosive shells, screens. Particular attention to standard means of review and reconnaissance.
    And of course, it would be cheaper to do this on some kind of unified chassis.
  37. 0
    7 September 2025 08: 13
    Quote: Per se.
    history will ask for this,

    She won't ask a damn thing! With the current level of information technology, any fuss is suppressed at the planning stage.
  38. 0
    9 September 2025 09: 40
    The concept needs to be defined. Soviet BMP 1-2-3 were designed for operations in Europe of the Western Group of Forces with breakthroughs to the English Channel through contaminated areas (after the use of TNW) and overcoming water obstacles.
    Now the concept has changed, and with the advent of the FPV it has changed completely.
  39. 0
    11 September 2025 09: 46
    At the moment, going into battle with any IFV (even one weighing 55 tons, more than many tanks)) is complete madness. As befits the author of such texts, it is stuffed with a lot of things that have no significance for real combat, but help sell certain designs to the army. Because the factories are not at all interested in combat use - it is not the factory owners who will die in their IFVs. They are interested in how many IFVs they can produce WITH THEIR EXISTING CAPACITIES. That's all. What will happen in battle, they (and the author of the article) do not give a damn.
    I will describe one system, without which no armored vehicle can be sent into battle, let alone driven out of the hangar. Therefore, naturally, no one has it, and no one even tries to make it. BMPs burn - the manufacturers' pockets are filled! That's what's important, not some casualties or some victory!
    This system is an ACTIVE counter-UAV system. That is, a couple of unmanned and therefore very small turrets. Which, among other things, are relatively easy to replace when hit. In such a turret there are either light small arms (even an AK, slightly adapted, would be quite suitable), or a video camera with a range extended to IR. Such cameras are widely sold on the civilian market.
    And inside the BM there is a computer that processes video data. That's all. Such a system will simply shoot down UAVs flying up to the armor. There is nothing impossible about it. The speed of UAVs is ridiculous, the IR trace of their engines is large, they are visible in the sky in the visible range, not to mention in the IR. The software for them can be adapted from that available in civilian video recorders almost instantly.
    It's not all that complicated. But the money... Bloody, but so tempting...
    1. 0
      12 September 2025 09: 35
      To the question of what kind of IFV should be, it is easier to answer what it should not be. I think it should not be light like an APC, that is, it needs a level of armor approximately like a tank and obviously it needs tracks, naturally it will not be able to swim, and there is no need to chase a large capacity of troops, 4 paratroopers plus a driver and commander are enough, then the vehicle will be significantly smaller in size.
      1. -1
        12 September 2025 11: 37
        And the armor is impenetrable like a tank's? It's not. And therefore any BMP is just a grave. Which is needed after the first hit, which makes the very idea of ​​an BMP not just meaningless, but already insane. My "sympathy" to the manufacturers of these graves, exchanging the lives of our soldiers for the money received for their death. The "filling" of the BMP has no chance after the first hit. Think about it. Additional armor gives NOTHING.
      2. 0
        12 September 2025 13: 07
        Quote: agond
        To the question of what kind of IFV should be, it is easier to answer what it should not be. I think it should not be light like an APC, that is, it needs a level of armor approximately like a tank and obviously it needs tracks, naturally it will not be able to swim, and there is no need to chase a large capacity of troops, 4 paratroopers plus a driver and commander are enough, then the vehicle will be significantly smaller in size.


        And I have the same opinion

        4 people max is solved by an armored capsule behind the existing equipment tank, BMPT, assault large-caliber mega TOS, etc.

        and in general there is no need to develop anything special and produce mutant entities by crossing snakes and hedgehogs.

        Unless we put a powerful mortar in the tank turret and develop a full-fledged robot for supplying and evacuating wounded troops

        See solutions for the T-34. Just add a couple of steerable wheels to the module so as not to worsen the cross-country ability too much.
        1. -1
          13 September 2025 10: 30
          If we consider that the fewer people sit in the BMP, the less their possible losses from enemy fire, therefore, a 2-seater BMP will ensure minimal losses of personnel. Such an BMP can be imagined as a motorized towing vehicle on one track pulling an armored sled with a driver and 1-2 paratroopers, thus we get a machine that is easy to manufacture, with good cross-country ability, which, due to its small size, is more difficult to detect and harder to hit
          1. -1
            13 September 2025 11: 07
            Quote: agond
            If we consider that the fewer people sit in the BMP, the less their possible losses from enemy fire, therefore, a 2-seater BMP will ensure minimal losses of personnel. Such an BMP can be imagined as a motorized towing vehicle on one track pulling an armored sled with a driver and 1-2 paratroopers, thus we get a machine that is easy to manufacture, with good cross-country ability, which, due to its small size, is more difficult to detect and harder to hit

            If this is not a joke:


            This is the simplest analogue of an articulated vehicle with a passive semi-trailer, which significantly reduces cross-country ability.

            No weapons ≠ BMP
            No protection ≠ APC

            Sleds dragged behind a tank were used during the Second World War by both sides in the winter.

            Next step 0 crew and landing in the first line
            =>
            A group of BPNA with weapons similar to those of infantry on an open transporter (analogous to the Komsomol tractor), with the ability to use standard weapons from all angles.
            1. 0
              13 September 2025 21: 01
              Quote: Eng Mech
              This is the simplest analogue of an articulated vehicle with a passive semi-trailer, which significantly reduces cross-country ability.

              The fact that the cross-country ability would supposedly deteriorate sharply is not true, look at how a motorized towing vehicle pulls a sled with two hunters in the summer through difficult terrain and everything will become clear, and then if they attack in small groups of 2-3 fighters, or on ATVs and even electric scooters ... or on a classic infantry fighting vehicle, it is impossible to create a universal infantry fighting vehicle for all cases,
              1. +1
                14 September 2025 03: 05
                Quote: agond
                Quote: Eng Mech
                This is the simplest analogue of an articulated vehicle with a passive semi-trailer, which significantly reduces cross-country ability.

                The fact that the cross-country ability would supposedly deteriorate sharply is not true, look at how a motorized towing vehicle pulls a sled with two hunters in the summer through difficult terrain and everything will become clear, and then if they attack in small groups of 2-3 fighters, or on ATVs and even electric scooters ... or on a classic infantry fighting vehicle, it is impossible to create a universal infantry fighting vehicle for all cases,

                So be it.
                Most people (including me) seem to agree that it is impossible to create a highly effective, protected and capacious universal combat vehicle.

                Although comrade bayard claims with a description of the design and examples from Ukraine that it is quite possible.
  40. 0
    15 September 2025 13: 09
    Incidentally,

    Note to the "Housewives" and the author:

    KF41 has a very sound idea (in my opinion) === "mission kits on common drive module"

    Which in translation means kits for a specific MISSION on a universal chassis, fully functional both with and without a module.

    The only version according to the picture implies "NOT field" replacement and storage.


    The solution is seen in ready-made modules with walls, a floor and a roof (for example, with additional equipment installed on the roof, including combat modules and without them) with standard fastenings compatible with ISO sea containers (which (walls, floor, roof) by the way can be an additional layer of internal armor and a power frame for transportation on standard container ships and stacking in a container)


    In this case, self-loading in field conditions can be done by means of a winch (as on the BTR-50 for the gun or by means of a "self-loading lever" as on standard self-loading container ships)

    The range of widths can be:
    5 feet ≈ 1522 mm
    Naturally 8 feet ≈ 2438 mm
    10 feet ≈ 3048 mm (which opens up some very interesting solutions for weapon modules of the “washer” type)