Military Review

Russia and China: divination in the thick of the strategic

66
A month ago, Chinese President Xi Jinping visited Moscow. Russia was the first country he chose for a state visit. The most important documents signed during the visit appeared agreements to increase the supply of Russian hydrocarbons to China and the construction of pipeline branches in the southern direction. In addition, an intergovernmental agreement to expand cooperation in the trade of crude oil and an agreement on cooperation in the construction and operation of the Tianjin oil refining and petrochemical plant were signed.


After the visit was followed by a curious refutation from ITAR-TASSin which 22-24 in March during the visit of the President of the People's Republic of China Xi Jinping to Moscow did not sign agreements on the supply of modern Russian weapons and military equipment to China. The source of such a statement, originating from the system of military-technical cooperation of the Russian Federation with foreign countries, was hidden behind a veil of anonymity. Information about the agreements allegedly signed during the visit through the PTS was distributed by the Central Chinese Television.

So, misinformation was caused by the habit of beating the Chinese in fanfare on the slightest occasion? The fact is that not during the visit of Comrade Xi, but on the eve of his Russia and China signed a document in the form of a framework agreement on the supply of aircraft and submarines. This is reporting "Sight" with reference to the RIA "News". The PRC is likely to purchase non-nuclear submarines of the 24 “Amur” project from the 35 and Su-4 and 1650 aircraft from the Russian Federation. The implementation of these two agreements may be the first in the last decade a major supply of Russian weapons to China. Moreover, the Chinese side believes that in the future, the PRC and the Russian Federation may expand cooperation in the field of arms supplies. We are talking about the purchase by China of heavy 117C engines, C-400 anti-aircraft guns, Il-76 transport aircraft and Il-78 tanker aircraft.

The contract for the supply of Su-35 and submarines, as told “Russian service BBC” military expert Viktor Murakhovsky, really signed. It was prepared for several months: during this time, the parties discussed the volume of deliveries. The fact is that Russia refused to deliver a small batch of aircraft to China, fearing that Beijing is planning to copy these products. But during the negotiations last year, an agreement was signed on the protection of intellectual property in terms of defense products.

However, you should not trust such a categorical statement about signing.

В Nezavisimaya Gazeta An article by Anastasia Bashkatova and Vladimir Mukhin was published, entitled: “Moscow and Beijing did not understand which agreements they had signed.” Correspondents mention the fact that negotiations on the conclusion of a contract for the supply of fighters to the PRC were conducted a long time ago, and an intergovernmental Russian-Chinese agreement on the supply of Su-35 to China was signed in January 2013. Then followed the consultation on the preparation of the contract. Vyacheslav Dzirkaln, deputy director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, told reporters in February about this. He clarified that this would not be a license, but a delivery contract: China will receive ready-to-operate aircraft. Deliveries should begin after 2015, and the deal was estimated at about 1,5 billion.

It seems that journalists write that Moscow and Beijing are confused. A scandal developed around the deliveries of Russian fighters and submarines to the PRC. The main dispute was caused by the possibility of transferring production technologies to China and organizing the production of analogues directly in Chinese enterprises.

According to sources from the Nezavisimaya Gazeta, China wants to minimize purchases of finished samples of military equipment from Russia. The main interest of China is the import and development of the latest Russian technologies. Therefore, the Chinese and halved the amount of purchases discussed Su-35: from 48 to 24 pieces. A preliminary memorandum on the import of such a number of Russian fighters was agreed by the parties in November 2012. The experts interviewed by NG confirmed that the development of their own foreign products is part of China’s industrial policy, which applies to virtually any of its production. Experts tried to predict the total value of the contract, which allegedly was concluded between the countries. Taking into account the price of one Su-35 of approximately 90 million dollars and taking into account the price of submarines, the cost of the contract may exceed 3,5 billion dollars, said Narek Avakian, an analyst at financial company AForex.

The “airplane” agreements of the PRC and the Russian Federation continue to torment journalists to this day.

Scott Harold and Lowell Schwartz on this matter a few days ago Wrote in “The Diplomat”: “Some journalists suggested that China expects to adapt the technologies used in the Su-35 engines for stealth fighters that they are currently developing. As in the case of energy supplies, Russian officials through the press make it clear that while negotiations are continuing, their final results are likely to be known only by the end of the year. ”

In the latest issue of the Japanese newspaper "Nikkei" says on the purchase by China of twenty-four Su-35 fighters of the latest development from Russia. True, the authors refer to the state media of China. The Japanese expressly point out that the goal of the Chinese is “stuffing.”

“Su-35 has only recently entered service with the Russian army and is a concentration of secret military developments. Amazing what weapon Russia without a doubt sold to China. The news of this deal surprised weapons experts from around the world. ”


In fact, according to the Japanese, China wants to seize advanced technologies. An unnamed representative of the Self-Defense Forces of Japan says: “China is not at all interested in the fighters themselves. The true goal is to reproduce engine systems and radars and use them on our own production fighters. " And there is no need to purchase a large number of machines, if the sole purpose is to copy the internal equipment of "Sukhoi".

“At the initial stage of negotiations, China was talking about buying only four fighters, but the Russian side said that it“ would not sell at all if the amount was less than 48 ”. The Chinese leader Xi Jinping, who visited Russia on a visit, during talks with President Putin on March 22, nevertheless reduced their number to 24 fighters. ”


This is exactly how they see this situation in Japan - a country, we recall, which doesn’t like the strengthening of the PRC and is arguing with China over the Senkaku Islands.

And what about the Chinese?

The topic of bilateral relations between China and Russia, which received an impetus since the meeting of comrades Putin and Xi in Moscow, developed the other day, the agency Xinhua. It should be noted that the “plots” of the Su-35 or submarines were not even mentioned.

An extensive article describes the visit to China by a large Russian government delegation led by First Deputy Prime Minister Igor Shuvalov. Delegates came to China for the presentation of investment opportunities in Russia. With pathos, it is noted that China became the first country where Vladimir Putin made his first foreign visit outside the CIS after re-election as president, and Russia became the first stop on Xi Jinping’s foreign tour after he assumed the head of state.

It was said about strategic cooperation. As deputy director of the Institute of Russia, Eastern Europe and Central Asia at the Academy of Social Sciences of China Li Yongquan noted in an interview with Xinhua, now both China and Russia view the intensification of bilateral cooperation as strategic chances. The expert noted: "High-level political mutual trust will undoubtedly provide significant opportunities for cooperation between the business circles of the two countries, and expanding bilateral cooperation is a natural choice of both parties." The Minister of Commerce of China, Gao Huchen, speaking at the Russian-Chinese investment conference held in Beijing on April 9 in 15, said that China and Russia view the deepening of practical cooperation as a central task in the development of bilateral relations in the future, and investment cooperation is a priority bilateral practical cooperation.

It is noted that according to Chinese statistics, between China and Russia in recent years there has been a favorable trend of intensification of investment cooperation. Its scale is close to 30 billion US dollars. Over the past ten years, China has maintained more than 40 percent rates of average annual investment growth in the non-financial sectors of Russia. The Russian Federation, according to Xinhua, has become one of the largest countries in terms of the growth rate of attracted investments from China.

However, it is noted that, given the high level of political relations and huge potential opportunities in the markets of the two countries, the current level of investment cooperation between Russia and China remains low. Chairman of the Board of the Russian-Chinese Center for Trade and Economic Cooperation Sergey Sanakoev expressed the opinion that the main task now is to create an atmosphere of higher level trust in commercial circles and to demonstrate the readiness of the two governments to ensure economic security. And Igor Shuvalov said that the main purpose of his visit to China is to implement the agreements reached by the leaders of the two countries and to demonstrate to the Chinese enterprises the great investment opportunities of Russia: “We want the myth about the alertness of Chinese investors to the Russian economy to be dispelled.”

One of the main tasks of the recent visit of the Russian delegation to the PRC was also mentioned - attracting Chinese investors to participate in large investment projects in the Far East. The Russian delegation, writes Xinhua, introduced Chinese businessmen to investment opportunities in this region: the sphere of transport, local energy, telecommunications, and finally, the field of seaport construction and social infrastructure. Government representatives expressed the readiness of the Russian government to provide a number of tax incentives in order to attract investors to the Far East and Baikal.

The above mentioned Scott Herold and Lowell Schwartz (by the way, these are political scientists, employees of the RAND Corporation brain trust) notethat cooperation between Russia and China, despite the enormous energy resources of Russia, the rapidly growing needs of China, the geographical proximity of the two countries and the strategic advantages of ground supplies, which the US fleet cannot interfere with, is limited. Russia remains only the fourth largest supplier of oil to China and serves only as a source for 8% of its oil imports. In the field of natural gas, the level of cooperation is even lower.

“... the head of Rosneft, Igor Sechin, said that Russia and China have not yet signed a final contract with the obligations of both parties. The stumbling block has once again become the pricing structure in Russian gas exports. Russia wants to set prices at the level of the lucrative deals that it makes with European countries, but China wants to get gas much cheaper. In the past, price disagreements more than once sabotaged the negotiations, therefore, it is still possible that the deal will collapse before the end of 2013. ”


As for the arms sector, according to analysts, Beijing wants to pay as little as possible for modern military technology and equipment. Russia wants to increase the supply of arms to China, but at the same time intends to avoid deals that may endanger its own security.

The supply of Russian weapons to China, political scientists remind, has noticeably decreased after the 2007 year: Beijing began to demand not only equipment, but also technology.

The Americans also note the likelihood of cooperation between Beijing and Moscow in the field of creating, together with other BRICS countries, an analogue of the IMF and the World Bank for the “developing world”.

In conclusion, analysts shrug their shoulders:

“... it is not yet clear whether Xi Jinping’s visit to Moscow led to new strategically significant agreements. During the summit, Chinese officials and journalists made a number of statements that hinted that important agreements had been reached in the field of energy and the arms trade. However, according to the Russian press, these statements were premature, and the parties still have difficult negotiations ahead. ”


Historical suspicions, mutual distrust and differences in strategic interests, analysts of RAND Corporation point out, may prevent China and Russia from expanding cooperation.

Thus, a possible strategic alliance of Russia and China, which is very worried about the West, remains under question mark.

So far, we can say with confidence about one thing: the main (and open) goal of Xi Jinping’s March visit to Moscow was to expand Chinese purchases of Russian hydrocarbons. Mostly today the Celestial buys oil in saudi arabia. It should be added to this that the Chinese are constantly thinking about diversifying the acquisition of energy resources: they do not accept dependence on suppliers.

As for the Su-35, then we will hear about this “framework agreement”.

Observed and commented on Oleg Chuvakin
- especially for topwar.ru
66 comments
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  1. tronin.maxim
    tronin.maxim April 19 2013 08: 54 New
    +1
    I certainly do not mind selling weapons but to China! If China purchases a S-400 copy, it won’t be able to make a copy, since the system is very complicated, especially its algorithms (maybe I was wrong somewhere). I wonder what benefits the government wants to get to me is not clear.
    1. Aleks28
      Aleks28 April 19 2013 08: 57 New
      +7
      Quote: tronin.maxim
      If China purchases a S-400 copy

      Of course, I apologize, but infa passed that the S-400 will not be exported for the next 15 years.A Rosoboronexport spokesman told reporters that Russia would not export Triumph S-400 anti-aircraft missile systems (air defense systems) until it fully meets the needs of the Russian army.Here are such statements. request
      1. tronin.maxim
        tronin.maxim April 19 2013 09: 11 New
        +3
        Quote: Allex28
        Of course, I apologize, but there was infa that the S-400 will not be exported for the next 15 years. A Rosoboronexport spokesman told reporters that Russia will not export S-400 Triumph anti-aircraft missile systems (air defense systems) to full satisfaction needs of the Russian army. Here are such statements.

        Oh, I would like to believe, but vague doubts torment me.
        1. Aleks28
          Aleks28 April 19 2013 10: 02 New
          +4
          Quote: tronin.maxim
          Oh, I would like to believe, but vague doubts torment me.

          I don’t understand where our people are looking, because by the very nature of the procurement it’s clear that it’s not weapons that are being purchased, but a copy sample. If you sign a contract, then for a large batch of + those services + spare parts. they’ll already say impudently: "sell a couple of pieces, we don’t need much, anyway for dismantling"
          1. Nitup
            Nitup April 19 2013 12: 45 New
            +2
            Yes, and demand full prepayment. So that it doesn’t work out like with the Su-27: we agreed on 200 pieces, then bought 100, and the purchase of the others was canceled.
          2. Dovmont
            Dovmont April 19 2013 18: 02 New
            0
            I generally can not understand the policy of the Kremlin towards China! On the one hand, he jammed us as he wanted, not embarrassed in receptions. On the other hand, we are making concessions to the Chinese on many issues. It seems that the leadership of our country completely forgot the lessons of recent history taught to us by China!
          3. YuDDP
            YuDDP April 19 2013 19: 25 New
            0
            maybe China should be strengthened? and this is more important than the risk of war with China
      2. Russian
        Russian April 19 2013 09: 14 New
        +3
        Well, well, China is our best friend, can it not be sold?) And IL-76, IL-78 are all that they wish)
        Well, but seriously, I hope this is all Chinese fantasies, because if this is true, then we will have to squeeze a lot out of the arms market in the near future, and we ourselves will be to blame for this. Plus, China borrows with us all-taxis, the population in the Far East and Siberia is extremely small for such territories, so such flirting with a very strong dragon is very dangerous.
        1. Alexander
          Alexander April 19 2013 11: 13 New
          +2
          Considering that the Chinese have this 5-year-old - the five-year plan of the aircraft industry, then they will in any way try to fuck foreign aircraft technologies ...
          1. Alikovo
            Alikovo April 19 2013 12: 14 New
            0
            agree with you
            1. fog
              fog April 19 2013 13: 34 New
              0
              and then Chinese aircraft will appear, which will be cheaper than our Su-35s and not inferior to them in characteristics
        2. ars_pro
          ars_pro April 20 2013 04: 20 New
          0
          I wonder how much su35 you need per 1 T-50ku,
      3. T-130
        T-130 April 19 2013 11: 31 New
        +2
        In principle, s-500 should appear during this time, but it’s not worth selling thieves at least three hundred and could not copy, but do not tempt the Chinese.
        1. Nitup
          Nitup April 19 2013 12: 46 New
          0
          In my opinion, even the Americans could not copy the S-300.
      4. Kolya
        Kolya April 20 2013 08: 57 New
        0
        You know how we, whoever gilded a pen, will sell the S-400 to that. So it was the last 20 years, as it will be now, let's see, so there is no certainty, only hope.
    2. vadimus
      vadimus April 19 2013 10: 00 New
      0
      Again, weapons to disassemble China to deliver? It's a shame, the right word ....
    3. Pancho
      Pancho April 19 2013 22: 11 New
      0
      Quote: tronin.maxim
      I certainly do not mind selling weapons but to China!

      But I’m against! I’m worried that these weapons and their derivatives may well be directed against us. And those who sold them at this time will be sitting overseas, cattle.
  2. VohaAhov
    VohaAhov April 19 2013 09: 03 New
    13
    The author raised a very interesting topic. Selling the Su-35 to China has great risks. And the smallest one is copying technologies with subsequent overproduction, and the biggest one, we ourselves will have to fight with them in a possible future conflict. On the other hand, there are pluses. India, Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, seeing increased Chinese power, will move from the purchase of obsolete Su-30s to the purchases of more modern Su-35s or what will come of the T-50 (mb Su-50). Russia will receive more than $ 2,1 billion from the sale of aircraft. And these are workers' salaries, taxes, and, possibly, money for future developments. Many blame the sale of 12 Project 877 and 636 submarines to China. However, no one remembered that the cost of 1 boat was more than $ 300 million and they were built at the same time at three shipyards, while almost nothing was being built for the Russian Navy. Perhaps only because of this order shipyards in Severodvinsk, St. Petersburg and Nizhny Novgorod were able to survive and have the opportunity and potential for building boats for the Russian Navy. So I believe that it is necessary to sell weapons abroad (including to China), but this must be done wisely.
    1. AK-47
      AK-47 April 19 2013 09: 32 New
      +3
      Quote: VohaAhov
      ... I believe that it is necessary to sell weapons abroad (including to China), but this must be done wisely.

      Golden words, I’m sure that GDP is not crazy in this matter.
      1. broker
        broker April 19 2013 12: 16 New
        0
        For example, you can take the Ecuador-Chinese air defense)))
    2. rolik
      rolik April 19 2013 10: 47 New
      +8
      Quote: VohaAhov
      And the smallest is copying technology

      Technologies cannot be copied. They can be stolen (documentation), bought, created, but not copied. We already supplied the Chinese with airplanes, if it were possible, they already produced engines like ours. But their engines are rubbish. The technology for the production of materials cannot be copied. Glider can be lapped, electronics, but not materials and their production. About the boats. Lada will not be delivered to China, Amur will be delivered. This is the same "Lada", only greatly reduced in capabilities. even if they copy it (and this will certainly be), then this copy will be an order of magnitude worse than our Lada. Like the submarines, they have bad boats, in a word go ..but.
  3. omsbon
    omsbon April 19 2013 09: 09 New
    +3
    If during China's copying of our technology we go ahead, then we can cooperate.
    1. Aleks28
      Aleks28 April 19 2013 09: 13 New
      +3
      Quote: omsbon
      If during China's copying of our technology we go ahead, then we can cooperate.

      The trouble is that the Chinas have time to copy faster than they have time to invent all over the world.
      1. Geisenberg
        Geisenberg April 19 2013 11: 29 New
        0
        Quote: Allex28
        The trouble is that the Chinas have time to copy faster than they have time to invent all over the world.


        Simply copying technology does not make sense. Copying technology involves the restoration of the entire chain from kostruktorskoy thought to the engineering embodiment. Only in this case will there be any sense. This is the main value of design documentation, which they do not give.

        The fact that the Chinese comrades draw well does not take into account that they understand the meaning of what they draw. Let them at least be copied. Until the designers of the appropriate level are up to them, they can only do this. And they will not grow very soon.
        1. T-130
          T-130 April 19 2013 11: 39 New
          +2
          Copying makes sense already in that, for copying you need materials close in composition to the source, and this will develop technologies that the Chinese are so lacking in.
        2. Aleks28
          Aleks28 April 19 2013 11: 51 New
          +1
          Quote: Geisenberg
          The fact that the Chinese comrades draw well does not take into account that they understand the meaning of what they draw. Let them at least be copied. Until the designers of the appropriate level are up to them, they can only do this. And they will not grow very soon.

          If everything was so simple, don’t underestimate the enemy, copying just shows that there are no shortages of chinas with engineering personnel. And to copy normally, you just need to get to the bottom of it, and the quality of Chinese clones is amazing.
        3. dievleha
          dievleha April 19 2013 12: 29 New
          +3
          look how quickly the quality of Chinese cars and automobiles, as well as electronics has grown. Therefore, do not underestimate them, their development at an abrupt pace should be respected and their underestimation will now lead to our chronic lag and loss of markets in the future
    2. avt
      avt April 19 2013 10: 02 New
      +1
      Quote: omsbon
      If during China's copying of our technology we go ahead, then we can cooperate.

      Quite right, what's the point of withering in today's designs with more modern ones? request In addition, copying today's samples, albeit good ones, they themselves lag behind for the future. For example, after the Patriotic War they began to import machine tools from Germany as compensation for the destroyed, so Academician Satel wrote a letter to Stalin with a request to limit, if not stop. He proposed that the Germans be forced to make a new generation of machine tools and mechanisms in place of their old equipment.
  4. disa
    disa April 19 2013 09: 11 New
    0
    A possible strategic alliance between Russia and China is possible in at least two “options”. We are selling to China everything that we “cannot” realize ourselves and “fighting” them with the USA with our hands or they are strengthening at our expense to the point where they can absorb our Far East. And of course, such an increase in China is of no interest to anyone ... not only Japan.
    1. T-130
      T-130 April 19 2013 11: 47 New
      +1
      In both cases, there is only one result - they are strengthened at our expense, they bring down the USA and come to us .....
      1. washi
        washi April 20 2013 16: 51 New
        0
        They need us as a source of technology and all ..
  5. cat-hipopotamus
    cat-hipopotamus April 19 2013 09: 20 New
    0
    the topic on the 35th has already passed, http://topwar.ru/26813-v-rossii-prodaetsya-vse.html, the conclusion suggests itself ...........
  6. Mikhail Topor
    Mikhail Topor April 19 2013 09: 23 New
    +4
    Quote: tronin.maxim
    All the same, it will not be able to make a copy, since the system is very complex, especially its algorithms

    any copy is worse than the original. This time.
    Everything that is exported has simplified characteristics than what is supplied for the Moscow Region. these are two.
    Moreover, as practice shows, Chinese radars tend to turn off a little more than completely, and all at once (a neighboring topic about Ecuadorian air defense). These are three.
    In general, the purchase of weapons has never been a matter of economics. This is always an exclusively political issue. Having bought weapons, especially high-tech ones, you are guaranteed to subscribe to further military-technical cooperation in its maintenance, modernization, personnel training, and so on.
  7. Lecha57
    Lecha57 April 19 2013 09: 33 New
    0
    The correct comment can be not only from the competence of the author, but also from reliable information, which I doubt very much.
  8. Black
    Black April 19 2013 09: 45 New
    0
    China will not be China unless it copies the acquired. But of all the evils, one has to choose, for the visible horizon of threats, the threat of strengthening the yellow neighbor.
  9. rolik
    rolik April 19 2013 10: 37 New
    -1
    Quote: VohaAhov
    And the smallest is copying technology

    Technologies cannot be copied, especially in the production of materials and their application. Such technologies can only be bought or developed by yourself. We have already delivered aircraft to China along with engines. But they did not learn how to make the same engines, they do not have such technologies. Glider can be copied, electronics. materials are not.
  10. tronin.maxim
    tronin.maxim April 19 2013 10: 36 New
    +1
    Quote: Michael Topor
    Having bought weapons, especially high-tech ones, you are guaranteed to subscribe to further military-technical cooperation in its maintenance, modernization, personnel training, and so on.

    But do we need this, help China?
  11. Canep
    Canep April 19 2013 10: 44 New
    +1
    But during the negotiations last year, an agreement was signed on the protection of intellectual property regarding defense products.

    I would not expect the Chinese to fulfill this agreement, after the history of J-11 - Su27, iron guarantees are needed. China is the father of buttress.
    1. Vladimirets
      Vladimirets April 19 2013 11: 40 New
      +1
      Quote: Canep
      China is the father of buttress.

      Breakthrough technologies in architecture or what? laughing
  12. zvereok
    zvereok April 19 2013 10: 37 New
    -1
    You can, after all, like China at one time from a purchase, refuse to supply aircraft. Only this will hit the reputation and the bench press is not iron in our Ivanovo-shuvalschiny.
    1. washi
      washi April 20 2013 16: 55 New
      0
      first read the course of political economy, and then evaluate the actions of the leadership
  13. Canep
    Canep April 19 2013 10: 44 New
    +1
    But during the negotiations last year, an agreement was signed on the protection of intellectual property regarding defense products.

    I would not expect the Chinese to comply with this agreement, after the history of J-11 - Su27, iron guarantees are needed. China is the father of buttress.
    1. Roll
      Roll April 19 2013 11: 19 New
      +2
      am The problem is that patent law is already surviving in recent years and will be abolished in the future. The fact that China copies everything that can do it right is the most rational way to progress. When we were developing rapidly, we also copied everything, both the 29 plane and the Fau missiles, and a lot of things, we have the very stigma in the cannon and we don’t have to teach China. And then they were smart, like let China drags round and rolls square. Then, the fact that China copies a lot is legal. Our efficient managers secretly sold the rights to copy, so we quietly blather, and China reluctantly snarls, but no one is interested in laying out the motive for transactions. As for Su 35, if China considers Su 35 to be a modernization of Su 27, it will legally copy it.
  14. Roll
    Roll April 19 2013 10: 50 New
    +1
    bully The assertion that any copy is worse than the original is stupid, each time in a different way, China needs to sell the most modern weapons and not think about the consequences, the main thing is to earn the military-industrial complex and develop production. If the war begins with China, we have vigorous weapons, and in other cases we have no chance of success. If a large-scale conflict begins with China, and China occupies Kazakhstan and Mongolia, we will not cover this front with anything. Therefore, to avoid conflict by diplomatic and economic methods is our main task. And we need China’s power for a possible future conflict between Amers and China, and the stronger China is, the better for us. The whole joke of the situation is that we want to sell obsolete weapons to China, like we are smart and China is stupid, but the problem is that the latest We can not sell weapons to anyone except China and India.
  15. Roll
    Roll April 19 2013 10: 56 New
    -2
    laughing But China has a maneuver, if it succeeds in lifting the embargo on Europe, then we will have to sell su 35 in a tender with rafals and typhoons. And why should we wait for this? Then China increases the military budget at a rate of 10 percent per year and for me it’s not entirely clear why they don’t buy 48 or 96 dryers, that is loot. Apparently, they do not plan major conflicts until 2020. Therefore, they are not worth fearing yet. In addition, there is Ukraine, Belarus, in general, China has a lot to buy without us. Therefore, you need to sell to the maximum and even with technology.
    1. Scythian 35
      Scythian 35 April 19 2013 18: 50 New
      0
      Ukraine and Belarus has the production of modern combat aircraft? Well, you old man. wassat Do you advise China to buy aircraft carriers in Birkina Faso?
  16. Fin
    Fin April 19 2013 11: 01 New
    +3
    We must deliver airplanes after 2015. At a minimum, add time to copy for two years and get three to four years. During this time, there will already be new developments that we insert in the t-50. In addition, the Chinese still could not copy engines normally. So nothing bad happened.
    In general, in the fight against the Yankees, we must do our utmost to help China and conclude with them some kind of agreement such as "On Eternal Peace and Friendship" or "Military Assistance in Aggression" while strengthening our borders well. China now depends on oil from the Middle East, they need to offer their own at a discount, small. And then the Europeans themselves will offer us to join the EU, they will ask to increase the supply of gas and oil, they will give out runaway thieves and ....
  17. vladkust
    vladkust April 19 2013 11: 15 New
    +1
    I would like to think that they (the government) know that our minds and engineers have already developed (or are developing) new weapons that will exceed the current "weapons" by several times and that this money will significantly help in creating these weapons and that our army will still have advanced technologies and technology while the Chinese masters blurt out plagiarism .... in any case, I want it to be that way !!! In such cases, success will be otherwise .....
  18. 120352
    120352 April 19 2013 11: 17 New
    +2
    Dude came to look at the new territory, where he will resettle his fellow citizens. What will happen to us? Read Gumileva L.N. It has everything, as in the picture: those who are buried alive, to whom, humanly, the guts will be released. But they will not leave ANYONE alive. Its closely.
    So, Russia must be protected!
  19. Withoutdream
    Withoutdream April 19 2013 11: 17 New
    0
    Quote: VohaAhov
    Selling the Su-35 to China has great risks. And the smallest one is copying technologies with subsequent overproduction, and the biggest one, we ourselves will have to fight with them in a possible future conflict. On the other hand, there are pluses. India, Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, seeing increased Chinese power, will move from the purchase of obsolete Su-30s to the purchases of more modern Su-35s or what will come of the T-50 (mb Su-50). Russia will receive more than $ 2,1 billion from the sale of aircraft. And these are workers' salaries, taxes, and, possibly, money for future developments.

    And who will India, Vietnam, Indonesia and Malaysia prefer to buy equipment from? China, with its hurricane methods of technology cloning and completely cheap labor, or Russia, with its weak production capacities, and high pricing policy due to the fact that everyone needs to put something in their pocket?
    1. T-130
      T-130 April 19 2013 11: 44 New
      +1
      Judging by the situation from Ecuador, I think the decision will not be in favor of the Chinese!
  20. larsky1
    larsky1 April 19 2013 11: 21 New
    +4
    The Chinese are raising us again. they’ll accumulate planes, but we will stay with our noses ...
  21. Whitehorse
    Whitehorse April 19 2013 11: 26 New
    -2
    Oh, not with those friends, not with those. One must be friends with the West, with the West.
    1. Vladimirets
      Vladimirets April 19 2013 11: 41 New
      0
      Quote: Whitehorse
      Oh, not with those friends, not with those. One must be friends with the West, with the West.

      Yeah, one good thing is rushing from him. wink
    2. silver_roman
      silver_roman April 19 2013 11: 56 New
      0
      nonsense .... complete. as they say, we have two allies (and a friend) - our army and navy. the rest, at the opportunity, is always stuck in the back.
    3. buga1979
      buga1979 April 19 2013 12: 31 New
      0
      he has been friends with him for 20 years better than a war friendship
  22. Withoutdream
    Withoutdream April 19 2013 11: 35 New
    +1
    Quote: Michael Topor
    Everything that is exported has simplified characteristics than what is supplied for the Moscow Region.

    Absolutely wrong remark. If we consider it from the point of view of the latest weapon classes, then in principle we do not supply them in order not to lose secret technologies. But the equipment of the previous class that we have at the moment, which is exported with the “E” index, lags behind the export version in terms of characteristics. Take for example Iskander-E, or Buk-2ME. Foreign buyers always have certain conditions and technical requirements for purchased equipment. We have to modernize weapons for sale abroad, in order to be competitive with other foreign arms and equipment suppliers. And we cannot afford such a modernization because of its high cost. It already turns out "whoever pays for the girl dances her."
  23. Goldmitro
    Goldmitro April 19 2013 11: 36 New
    +3
    <<< “The Su-35 has only recently entered service with the Russian army and is the focus of secret military developments. It is surprising that Russia without a doubt sold such weapons to China. >>>
    No wonder! In Russia, His Majesty is now ruled by the MARKET, which will solve all problems by itself. Its representatives - managers, managers of financial flows, who for some reason have been given up to the solution of such issues, are obviously ready to immediately sell (THIS MAIN) anything and anywhere, without thinking about the consequences. The consequences are not their problem.
  24. T-130
    T-130 April 19 2013 11: 41 New
    0
    Quote: T-130
    Copying makes sense already in that, for copying you need materials that are close in composition to the source, and this will develop technologies that are so lacking for the Chinese. It is clear that this will not happen soon, but they are trying to steal something that they cannot repeat!
  25. silver_roman
    silver_roman April 19 2013 11: 55 New
    -1
    This is an interesting topic of relations between the Russian Federation and China. In fact, in the long run, we IDEA, regarded by China as a geopolitical rival. But while a “different structure” dominates on the planet, cooperation is certainly beneficial. As the saying goes: "the enemy of my enemy, my friend!". Approximately by this logic the Chinese government now proceeds in this matter.
    The Russian Federation is also profitable for a strong ally, so some technologies are transferred, the main thing here is not to go too far and the same deal with the Su-35 seems very doubtful. Is it really impoverished due to 1.5 billion dollars? In fact, it seems to me that this was a personal request from Comrade Xi to V.V.P., which was not easy to refuse. And from here you can see a certain dependence. Although without this, nowhere ... and this is normal in foreign policy.

    On the other hand, it is said that according to UNOFFICIAL data, there are up to 20 million Chinese (!) - 1/7 of the population of the Russian Federation. such a figure cannot but scare. Hence, contracts for the development of the Far East may follow. After all, China already really wants and needs a territory and the fact that a dime a dozen of literature is published on the topic of expansion into the NORTH (!). And expansion can not always be military. In the long run, at a low rate of such expansion, banal assimilation in the Russian Federation will also take place. And there the infrastructure is already developed ... It’s somehow not calm and not pleasant to think about it! But to ignore this is definitely not worth it.
    And again, my pure IMHO, China is not looking for allies. Soon he will be able to solve ALL of his problems on his own and regardless of leftist criticism from the remaining world community!
    1. mda
      mda April 19 2013 18: 38 New
      -1
      Quote: silver_roman
      TO THE NORTH

      And what will it be the population that will move to the Far East to feed? They do not harvest 2 or 3 crops per year.
      1. Scythian 35
        Scythian 35 April 19 2013 19: 07 New
        0
        Do not worry, this is all started for us, the Chinese have cut and sold forests in a couple of years, they will plow the land, sow the land, and every shred. And the Chinese eat less than ours, and meat is a luxury for them. I think the Far East will feed millions of 100-200 Chinese, if they add Transbaikalia, they will feed half a billion. And more Chinese do not think to resettle in Siberia - there will be no people left in the metropolis !!! laughing
        1. washi
          washi April 20 2013 17: 06 New
          0
          Sorry, read earlier. Buy apartments in China. Cheap.
      2. silver_roman
        silver_roman April 19 2013 22: 39 New
        +1
        they have no hopelessness tough and critical at the moment. Therefore, AS I WRITTEN AND HOW YOU READ CAREFULLY, they invest in the development of the region, which in the future will be POSSIBLE to claim! Do you really think that they care about our standard of living or do they really want to help ??? that's why I made an assumption (!).
        And what does it mean to feed the population? is there a transportation problem in the 21st century? This is not some kind of Bangladesh for you, but China ... In addition, the railway connection is developed enough. I think they have rails and the floor to our standards, ka and everything else! let commodities and all. In addition, the sex of China is not necessarily relocated, and there are other regions that they are very successfully assimilating!
    2. washi
      washi April 20 2013 17: 04 New
      0
      Who's stopping you will move to China. A lot of pensioners in the Far East buy an apartment in northern China and live there. There are a lot of empty apartments in the north of China. Products are cheaper, rents too. At most once a month to return, receive a pension and back.
      Why apartments in the West, if there is in the east?
      The subscription will end, I can also buy it in China, otherwise I’ll get a horseradish from my native Moscow region
  26. nikolas 83
    nikolas 83 April 19 2013 11: 57 New
    +1
    I think China shouldn’t sell weapons, which we ourselves don’t have enough in the army. I am silent about the latest developments. Right now we sell them and we’ll arm our enemy. Remember Damansky. What are their plans to clean up Siberia and the Far East. Sooner or later they will climb to us with our own weapons. They don’t know how to copy yet, but they are learning fast. As soon as they feel their strength and then we can’t avoid the military conflict. We need to deliver the latest equipment to the troops faster and in a larger team and not engage in modernizing the old one. .... Who is not our enemy is India.
  27. optimist
    optimist April 19 2013 12: 00 New
    +3
    This "friendship" with narrow-eyed will not bring us to good ... They will organize us another 100% Damansky !!! In the history of Russia there was not a single "friend" who would not have thrown us. So the Russian army and navy are her only friends. But the Chinese only oil and gas for specific money !!!
  28. nod739
    nod739 April 19 2013 12: 26 New
    +2
    Quote: Michael Topor
    any copy is worse than the original. This time.


    the Chinese are copying, for example, our Su-27, modifying something, putting their electronics on, changing something.
    the plane has the worst engines. but not so bad compared to the original, but something better. at the same time cheaper!

    Moreover. without documentation, let's say you need to copy some block. function and parameter of the block is the same. You can not copy it, but create a new one, and they succeed. besides engines.
    And the main plus is that they SAVE significant funds for R&D, pre-production, etc., as a result, the final result is cheaper.
    Of course, the disadvantages are that the same Su-27 is yesterday’s aircraft, although it is very relevant when it is ready for combat at the airport

    Due to the use of radar absorbing materials, the EPR of J-11B is 27% less than that of the Su-25.
    here is more about all the differences vpk.name/news/82233_mnogolikii_su27_v_vvs_kitaya.html

    At one time, the B-29 - Tu-4 was copied to the USSR, but as it was copied, or production was improved, something was better there, and the engines were more powerful, if I'm not mistaken
    1. Roll
      Roll April 19 2013 13: 03 New
      +3
      laughing As for the engines, China allocated 10 yards of bucks for their development and then what engine parameters are important right now. By its power, the Chinese analogue of al 31 f is approximately the same, even a little more powerful, the reliability is slightly worse than ours, but the flight resource is much inferior, but the flight resource is a peacetime parameter, and what kind of resource will be su 35 in a situation of intense conflict. Maybe 20-30 hours. Nobody knows for sure. Then we do not get big advantages. such a hitch.
  29. nod739
    nod739 April 19 2013 12: 54 New
    0
    Quote: vladkust
    I would like to think that they (the government) know that our minds and engineers have already developed (or are developing) new weapons that will surpass the current "weapons" at times


    it’s better to scare

    so that weapons are many times better, we need a new concept, a new principle

    how a tank is better than just a cannon, a jet is better than a piston, etc.

    and the su-27, or su-35, is an improvement of the same technologies
    for example, if tomorrow they come up with a radar capable of detecting, for example, a raptor at a distance of 1000 km, then you don’t need an airplane, this raptor will be knocked down with any rocket, or instead of a classic rocket they’ll come up with ... which in the lower atmosphere, when accelerated at 100, will develop a speed of 10 km second, while maneuvering, then the su-35 will not be needed - this will be weapons that are different at times
  30. pensioner
    pensioner April 19 2013 12: 55 New
    +1
    Quote: VohaAhov
    So I believe that it is necessary to sell weapons abroad (including to China), but this must be done wisely.

    I remember fulfilling the contract (air defense) with Cyprus (or Greece - all the time confused). So much stuffed into it what lay due to non-compliance with the requirements of military acceptance. If they knew ... How it all behaves during combat use is unknown. If, when delivering airplanes, a similar brand is executed, then let them take it. Toko more careful, more careful ...
  31. Ivan.
    Ivan. April 19 2013 13: 20 New
    0
    Correct me who is good in the subject if I'm wrong

    "China wants to minimize the purchase of finished samples of military equipment from Russia. The main interest of the Celestial Empire is the import and development of the latest Russian technologies. Therefore, the Chinese have halved the volume of purchases of the Su-35 from 48 to 24 units."

    Is it not more profitable for both if a contract for the transfer of a license with technical documentation for the same amount is concluded? Russia will receive Chinese funding for several dozen aircraft for its army that will be very timely, and China wants to rivet the aircraft and provide for its work as much as it needs. Moreover, China needs some time to establish production and the design bureau cannot be copied, and their idea is tomorrow's finished, the product is yesterday embodied today.
  32. fog
    fog April 19 2013 13: 35 New
    +1
    and then Chinese aircraft will appear, which will be cheaper than our Su-35s and not inferior to them in characteristics
  33. Roll
    Roll April 19 2013 13: 49 New
    +1
    fellow And here is a simple question, why do we need su 35 if there is a conflict with China, What application will it find. Well, with a probability of 90 percent, half of the sushkas will guard Moscow, part of St. Petersburg. Guard our strategic bombers? whether they lie. And the Chinese will destroy the drying at the airport. and what’s our purpose, well, the Chinese will pay for drying 35 alone with one ji 11 b, a couple of ji 10 and for a heap a little ji 8 will not lose them. And then the Chinese do not copy everything but do it based on their motives. They have their own ji 20 and ji 31 ​​good. And they are made based on the motives.
  34. Standard Oil
    Standard Oil April 19 2013 13: 54 New
    +3
    It’s better that the Chinese with American Americans gnaw at it, and we stand aside in the best Anglo-Saxon traditions, and then in the same traditions hit the winner in the back, again using the Anglo-Saxon language, let the last Chinese throw a grenade into the last American bunker and destroy it, die under it debris. The Chinese are no friends to us, I’m completely silent about the Americans. And maybe it’s enough to act as a defending side, you need to shit the Americans with their NATO wherever you can, and make an innocent face yourself and say that we are supposedly out of business and shout to the UN about the violation of human rights in the United States, etc. And yet the pipe dream in public on Krasnaya Ploshad to hang some human rights activists for treason, along with some former and current ministers, Mr. in the West will certainly go wild, but after a while they will settle down and do it themselves. And to judge Gorbachev by the people's court live with reading the charges on camera. The Chinese have shown what friends they are on the Daman Peninsula which then our power was simply given to the Chinese, a disgrace. The Chinese then, by the way, together with the Americans delivered weapons to the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, all this must not be forgotten. By the way, China is also not invulnerable and it needs to find weaknesses, but this is all empty talk while Russia is sitting on an oil needle. But I would like to be optimistic and do everything to change it. And sell weapons to everyone who wants to buy it, but of course not the latest models, all cute ones.
  35. VohaAhov
    VohaAhov April 19 2013 16: 33 New
    +1
    Technologies cannot be copied. They can be stolen (documentation), bought, created, but not copied.


    Well, why not, Was the Americans B-29, and became the Soviet Union Tu-4. They copied everything, even the camera left by the Americans.
    1. Gromily4
      Gromily4 April 20 2013 15: 06 New
      0
      Not certainly in that way. There was a task to make an exact copy of the aircraft, and they did it (our designers suggested we do our own thing, but they were told to do this first so that it flies and throws bombs, and then do your own designs). But the materials that were used in the construction were already their own. Because materials are difficult to copy even knowing their composition. So, the design of the aircraft is American, the materials used in the creation are already ours. And not the fact that the materials were worse than those used by the Americans, but for certain parameters it was even better.
  36. Thunderbolt
    Thunderbolt April 19 2013 16: 39 New
    +2
    The Chinese are not averse to investing in the economy of the Far East, but they are interested in the extractive industries. They want to drive raw materials to themselves and process them there. The wise sages, however! wink
  37. Wild boar
    Wild boar April 19 2013 17: 58 New
    +1
    This is the so-called "Russian Government", will sell anything and to anyone, because there is EVERYTHING of them there in the west, and here they are only"feed". All reasoning."about partnership"And"strategic cooperation"are simply ridiculous. They only support the appearance of" caring "for the good of the state.
    Look carefully at what they say and what is really being done. Even the allocation of 20 trillion for the purchase of new weapons until 2020 is a laugh, Russia does not have that much time !! But this is half the trouble, take a look at the composition of the purchased weapons, no system, just patching holes. Where is the strategy? Where is the asymmetric answer? No them! Stupid copying of "zapadenskie" "nova hava" and "drank" allocated funds. I repeat once more, although I do not aspire to be a prophet, but Russia does not have time for experiments, two years before the war, maybe a little more.
  38. SEM
    SEM April 19 2013 19: 01 New
    0
    It’s a bad job to sell advanced technologies. It’s not clear who these technologies will work against later, it’s good if not against Russia ...... But of course you need to be friends, only here you need a filter that is possible, and that cannot be like this, I think you need to build in this case relationship)))
  39. Alex Nick
    Alex Nick April 19 2013 20: 10 New
    +1
    Trade must be profitable. And here, except for grandmas, there is no benefit. What is the benefit of sharing the latest technology? Such trade will not lead to anything good.
  40. sokoloff4791
    sokoloff4791 April 19 2013 21: 18 New
    0
    I THINK THOUGHT TO PUTIN NOT)) OBLOSHAT 1.5 BILLION OF CHINESE IT WILL BE AFFECTED BY HIM)))))))))))
  41. Vtel
    Vtel April 19 2013 23: 21 New
    0
    The fact is that Russia refused to supply a small batch of aircraft to China, fearing that Beijing expects to copy these products. But during the negotiations last year, an agreement was signed on the protection of intellectual property regarding defense products.

    They’ll copy it anyway, their technologies have already froliced. It is surprising, although in our time it’s not anymore, that “our” aces sell the latest military equipment with such haste that we don’t want to believe in the “fifth” column - which we would only annoy and grab money from, but vague doubts torment us.
  42. MICHELSON
    MICHELSON April 20 2013 00: 32 New
    0
    .... we must sell weapons to China and do not forget to push them to war with the United States and Japan !!!
  43. MICHELSON
    MICHELSON April 20 2013 00: 33 New
    0
    .... we must sell weapons to China and do not forget to push them to war with the United States and Japan !!!
  44. aszzz888
    aszzz888 April 20 2013 01: 33 New
    0
    Quote: dievleha
    look how quickly the quality of Chinese cars and automobiles, as well as electronics has grown. Therefore, do not underestimate them, their development at an abrupt pace should be respected and their underestimation will now lead to our chronic lag and loss of markets in the future


    What are interesting cars and cars? These are not those trucks with a single letter changed in the names of well-known companies? (I do not want to advertise with these well-known Japanese companies.) Isn’t this about ... it is all about when they fail in packs, cars. These are all Chinese copies, rubbish like everything else, for which they do not undertake. And what should be the respect for them? Oh yes !!!
  45. zevaka84
    zevaka84 April 20 2013 02: 05 New
    0
    China cannot be trusted much.
  46. darksoul
    darksoul April 21 2013 20: 54 New
    0
    The Su-35 has only recently entered service with the Russian army and is the focus of secret military developments. It is surprising that Russia without a doubt sold such weapons to China.

    Surprisingly, recklessly, I think about this one-time benefit we will again regret when the Chinese push us with their cheaper copy from another market and begin production of a similar class of aircraft for their air force