Novik-class destroyers – a steel legend

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Novik-class destroyers – a steel legend

Usually the class of "destroyers" is derived from destroyers or "fighters" - counter-destroyers. In the case of Russia, this is not the case. Our destroyers are directly descended from mine cruisers. The fact is that having lost fleet in Port Arthur and at Tsushima, the government of the Russian Empire urgently made a decision to recreate it, but on a new material base. In terms of mine carriers weapons At a meeting, the Marine Technical Committee (MTC) decided to stop building small destroyers that suffer from a number of irreparable shortcomings, such as poor seaworthiness and low survivability, and to focus on larger mine cruisers.

To say that the requirements for the new mine cruisers were drawn up over a long period of time is to say nothing! Letters were sent to leading shipbuilding companies asking them to present their vision of the new ships. Surveys were conducted among sailors who had participated in the recent war, opinions were compared in the course of heated discussions, more or less competent justifications were provided for various configurations of the performance characteristics, and discussions and agreements began again...




Parsons Turbine - 19th Century Hi-Tech

There was no particular debate about the propulsion system. Instead of a steam engine, a steam turbine was planned from the very beginning. At that time, this was “mega-high-tech” — “Parsons turbines” appear in the science fiction novels of Jules Verne, and this Frenchman had a keen sense of promising technical innovations. The first turbine was installed by the British in 1899 on the experimental ship “Turbinia”. Subsequently, the experiment was repeated on the destroyers “Viper” and “Cobra”: the ships with a displacement of 370 tons were able to accelerate to an unprecedented 30 knots at that time.


The Unlucky Destroyer "Cobra"

Why then was such a successful experiment not scaled up at that time? Well... things didn't work out very well with the destroyers. In order to achieve the record speed promised by the new propulsion systems, English engineers significantly over-lightened these very "power-armed" ships. As a result, the Viper ran aground and broke in half, the entire crew was saved, including two kittens - the sailors' favorites. And the crew of the Viper was lucky: the Cobra broke apart on a wave during a storm, the stern sank immediately, the bow remained afloat for some time. 12 people from the crew managed to escape in a lifeboat, 65 drowned. Only a month and a half passed between the death of the Viper and the tragedy of the Cobra, which is why the naval and near-naval public decided that the cause of the ships' deaths was the turbine. By the way, after this incident the English stopped calling ships "snake" names...


Water-tube boiler of the destroyer Novik (a similar boiler of the Italian destroyer is placed below for comparison)

But the Russo-Japanese War put everything in its place, and the new mine cruisers of the Russian Imperial Navy (RIF) had to furrow the expanses of the World Ocean using turbine propulsion. It was decided to install water-tube boilers to feed the turbines with steam - they ensured a more complete return of steam energy, high maneuverability, smaller weight and dimensions. Well, water-tube boilers were much better suited to oil heating, and the mine cruisers of the new project were supposed to be oil-powered from the very beginning.

It was more complicated with weapons: there was clarity regarding the refusal of fixed underwater torpedo tubes, but there were disputes regarding the number of "tubes" themselves. At first, it was even planned to install six twin-tube rotating torpedo tubes. artillery There were fewer disputes, it became clear that there was no point in installing guns with a caliber of less than 4 inches, it remained to decide on the number of guns. A radio station was also recognized as a necessary part of the ship's equipment.

While the approximate performance characteristics of the future torpedo cruiser were being agreed upon, the "Small Shipbuilding Program" was adopted in 1907. Torpedo cruisers of the new type were not included in it, but it was planned to build 14 destroyers of the old type in the Black Sea. Yes, "destroyers" - it was in 1907 that torpedo cruisers received a new name. True, at first they were in no hurry to build in the Black Sea: the Turks were not the most formidable enemy, but in the spring of 1910 they intended to buy three new battleships, so in 1911 they had to urgently adopt a new plan called "On the allocation of funds for strengthening the Black Sea Fleet." Among other things, it provided for the construction of nine destroyers of the new type for the Black Sea Fleet. And in 1912, the "Great Shipbuilding Program" was adopted, which assumed the completion of the construction of new ships by 1916-1917. According to it, the number of destroyers of new types was to be 36 units in the Baltic Fleet alone. The Russian Empire did not manage to fully implement either the small or the large program, but the projects of the ships included in it lived a long life!

However, let's return to our destroyers. The agreed requirements for the ship were as follows: speed - 35 knots, seaworthiness - allowing to perform combat missions in wind force 8-9 and sea state 6-7, cruising range - 86 hours of continuous sailing at a speed of 21 knots, in other words - 1800 miles. The ship's armament was to be represented by two twin-tube torpedo tubes, two 120-mm guns of 45 calibers in length. There were to be 4 spare torpedoes, and 100 shells for each gun. All this was planned to fit into a displacement of 1000 tons. It was separately stipulated that the destroyer's silhouette should not stand out among other ships, for the sake of minimal visibility.


Alexey Krylov is one of the fathers of Novik

Having received the requirements, the MTC began to develop technical specifications for a "35-knot destroyer". Since the members of the MTC at that time were such outstanding shipbuilders as Alexey Krylov (future academician) and Ivan Bubnov - the creator of the first Russian submarine with internal combustion engines "Dolphin", Alexander Shershov (future builder of the battleships "Gangut" and "Poltava") and Gustav Schlesinger (who supervised the construction of the destroyers of the "Finn" type), the result of their work could not but be outstanding!


Ivan Bubnov knew a thing or two about strength of materials...

Let's start with the fact that Russian shipbuilders did not repeat the mistakes of the British, who over-lightened the Viper and Cobra. The longitudinal hull frame system and the standards for permissible stresses were developed by Bubnov, and the project was the first to fully implement the system. It was he who, in a report to the chairman of the MTC dated November 2, 1907, defined the main elements of the future ship, which can be considered the first document that formed the basis of the 35-knot destroyer project. In 1908, the MTC developed 5 versions of technical specifications, two of which were sent to one rather interesting organization. It was called the "Special Committee for Strengthening the Naval Fleet with Donations."


Admiral Ivan Dikov

The fact is that the destruction of the navy in the Russo-Japanese War did not leave the people of the Empire indifferent. On the initiative of Count L. M. Kochubey, who addressed his fellow citizens through the newspaper "New Time", a collection of funds was started to build ships to replace those lost. Donations were of various sizes: from a peasant ruble to a million rubles contributed by the Emir of Bukhara, but so much money was collected that it was necessary to create a special body headed by Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich, whose deputy was Adjutant General Admiral I. M. Dikov. The collection was stopped after more than 17 million rubles were in the committee's coffers.


Emir of Bukhara Seyid Abdulahad Khan is a man...

The collected money was used to build 18 coal-fired mine cruisers with a displacement of 550-600 tons and a speed of 25 knots: "Voyskovoy", "Dobrovolets", "Kazanets", "Moskvityanin", "Trukhmenets", "Ukraina", "Finn", "Emir Bukharsky", "Donskoy Kazak", "Steregushchiy", "Strashny", "General Kondratenko", "Amurets", "Zabaikalets", "Ussuriets", "Okhotnik", "Pogranichnik", "Sibirsky Strelok". It is interesting that the part of the names of these destroyers that is not dedicated to the heroes of the Russo-Japanese War was given in honor of those parts of the Empire where the money for the construction was collected (Emir Bukharsky was honored with "his" ship!). And with this same money, the first of the destroyers of the new type began to be built...


...and a steamship!

The task of designing the ship was not simple. On the one hand, it was necessary to make the ship narrow and long - to achieve a speed of 35 knots, on the other hand - to achieve the necessary longitudinal strength, but without weighing down the elements of the ship's framing. In general, the task of slipping between the drops in the rain is not much easier! But it was solved by means of the framing system proposed by Bubnov and the use of high-resistance shipbuilding steels.


Steam turbine of the destroyer Novik[/ Center]
A separate issue was the choice of steam turbines for the new destroyer. The manufacturer was given the right to choose from the already proven Parsons, Curtis and Rateau turbines, for which it was also possible to choose water-tube boilers of the Yarrow, Thornycroft, Norman or other types. An original twin-tube torpedo tube of 450 mm caliber and a new 102-mm gun with a barrel length of 60 calibers were developed for the ship's armament. It was proposed to install rails on the deck, which ensured the convenience of fastening and installing mines. In general, by 1909, the technical specifications were agreed upon and sent to the factories that wished to participate in the competition for the destroyer project: Admiralty, Metallichesky, Nevsky, Creighton and Co., Nikolaevsky and the Lange and Son factory in Riga.


Twin-tube rotating torpedo tube of the Black Sea "Novik" "Derzkiy"

The MTK liked the Metal Plant project the most. It was the one that proposed installing six double torpedo tubes and 2x102-mm guns on the ship. However, it was not without its shortcomings: the high metacentric height with a shallow draft made the ship insufficiently stable. The placement of oil in the side compartments also raised questions: one shell that hit them could lead to the destruction of the destroyer. In general, all the projects were returned for revision, and the Creighton and Co. plant dropped out of the competition. The final project (presented by the Metal Plant) was approved on September 30, 1909. But they demanded that changes be made to it: the Naval General Staff (MGSh) agreed to a slight increase in draft...


102mm gun on the stern of the Novik Nezamozhnik, formerly Zante

Constant alterations and modifications of the ship designs caused harsh criticism in the press: the money for the construction of the fleet was raised much faster than the ships themselves were designed. In the end, on April 2, 1910, the destroyer design of the Metal Plant was finally approved. It provided for the construction of a ship with a displacement of 1025 tons, a length of 96 meters, a width of 9 meters, and a draft of 2,76 meters. True, for the Black Sea, they decided to slightly rework the design: to install a third 102-mm cannon instead of one of the torpedo tubes, and a Curtis-AEG-Vulcan turbine instead of the Rateau turbine. This led to a new competition: to design a destroyer for the Black Sea Fleet. It was completed on December 19, 1911.

The Special Committee for Strengthening the Navy was given the opportunity to order a new destroyer from industry, using donations: it had a simpler financial situation than the Naval Ministry, all expenses did not need to be coordinated with the State Duma, and two million of the 17 million collected were still left in the account. It was decided to build the ship at the Putilov Plant, the delivery of the finished ship for testing was to occur no later than June 1, 1912, and acceptance into the treasury - August 1 of the same year. The problem was that the propulsion system of the new destroyer was planned to be ordered from the German company "Vulcan", but it made a mistake in calculating the power of the mechanisms based on the results of testing in the experimental pool of the ship model, so the construction was delayed by almost a year...


Konstantin Alexandrovich Tennyson

Konstantin Tennyson was appointed the destroyer's chief builder, and the ship's keel was laid on July 19, 1910. In January, the boilers and turbines were installed, and it was then that it became clear that Vulcan had screwed up its calculations, and the boilers had to be replaced with more efficient ones. In other respects, German quality was also not up to par: cavities were found in the mechanisms accepted by German Lloyd - perhaps the Germans were deliberately pushing out defects? After all, no one had any doubts that war was just around the corner...

The name of the new destroyer, at the suggestion of the commander of the Baltic Sea forces, Vice-Admiral Nikolai Ottovich von Essen, was given in honor of the famous Port Arthur cruiser Novik, which Essen himself commanded during the Russo-Japanese War, which perished in an unequal battle with Japanese cruisers. Taking into account the screw corvette Novik, the destroyer became the third ship of this name in the Russian fleet. The word "novik" in the Muscovite kingdom meant a nobleman or a boyar's son who had reached the age of 15, but had not yet entered service, in general - a recruit. In a figurative sense - something new and modern. Nicholas II also agreed with the name, putting the letter "S" on the proposal - "I agree".


Novik's launch into the water

The ship was launched on June 21, 1911. There were no special celebrations because the battleship Poltava was launched at the same time, so all the VIPs were there. Captain 2nd rank Dmitry Verderevsky, later the Minister of the Navy of the Provisional Government, was appointed commander of the ship under construction. Completion continued until the spring of 1912. At the same time, further changes were made to the project: the artillery armament was reinforced - 4x102-mm guns were installed instead of two according to the original project, and the number of twin-tube torpedo tubes was reduced to four (the artillery of different destroyers of the Novik type varied from 3 to 5 guns of 102 mm caliber). On May 1, 1912, the St. Andrew's flag was raised over the ship.

It must be said that for its time the ship was uniquely good! The ratio of the weight of the hull to the weight of the mechanisms was extremely small: thanks to the new framing system, the ship's hull was very light, but at the same time very strong. To ensure unsinkability, it was divided into compartments by watertight longitudinal and transverse bulkheads. Three turbines (two in the bow and one in the stern turbine rooms), fed by six water-tube boilers, rotated three propellers. The power of each turbine on the shaft was 10,7 thousand horsepower. The ship had four pipes, fuel was stored in double-bottom and side tanks, water - in the bow tank. The engineers of the Putilov plant provided for the possibility of combat damage to the ship, so a backup steam pipeline was laid parallel to the main one, so that if the main one was damaged, the ship could maintain speed.


The officer's cabin of one of the "noviki", most likely the destroyer "Desna"

The ship had good habitability: seven officers' cabins, a buffet and a wardroom were located on the upper deck near the forecastle. Sailors' quarters for 80 people were on the living deck in the bow and stern. In the stern on the living deck there was also a six-berth conductor's cabin. All living quarters had portholes and were heated by steam heaters; lockers and hanging bunks were intended for the crew to rest.


102-mm Obukhov gun of the destroyer "Stalin", formerly "Samson"

The armament for 1913 was extremely powerful: the 102 mm guns of the Novik had a firing range of up to 120 cables and good accuracy. The 450 mm torpedo tubes were aimed at the target using an optical sight. The ship was equipped with a radio telegraph station, providing a communication range of up to 300 miles. During trials, the ship exceeded the speed specified in the technical conditions, showing a maximum speed of 37,3 knots on a measured mile. Thus, at the beginning of the First World War, it was the best destroyer in the world.


Novik-class destroyers on the slipway (judging by the name "Kerch" - in Nikolaev)

Soon, the construction of serial ships of the Novik type began. In total, 30 such ships were built in Russia, and another 28 were on the stocks by the time of the October Revolution. Six of them were subsequently completed in the USSR. It is worth mentioning right away: not all destroyers of this type met the standard set by the Novik: during the war, the quality of construction significantly decreased, but this did not prevent the ships from actively fighting in the First World War, and in the Civil War, and in the Great Patriotic War.


Gorshkov G.V. "Destroyer Novik fights German destroyers V-99 and V-100 on August 17, 1915"

It is interesting that the active participation of the Germans in the creation of the Novik engines led to the presence of Noviks in the Kaiserliche Marine as well - around the boiler-turbine units ordered by Russia, during the war 8 destroyers were built that strongly resembled the Novik in all details except for the artillery: the Blohm und Voss company built the B-97, B-98, B-109, B-110, B-111 and B-112, and the Vulkan shipyard built the V-99 and V-100. The difference in the designations should not be confusing: in Germany, the first letter in the ship's number designated the company where it was built. It was the Noviks that became the first "zerstrohrer" - destroyers in the German fleet. All ships before them were called "torpedo-bot" - a destroyer in our language.


The result of the above mentioned battle for V-99

It is no less interesting that on August 17, Novik single-handedly entered into battle with two of its German “clones” — V-99 and V-100 — in the Gulf of Riga. And emerged victorious! The Russian 102-mm guns turned out to be better than the German 88-mm guns installed on the “zerstrorrers,” and the V-99 received such serious damage that it lost its course and was blown onto mines, after which it story ended tragically. The story of the others ended with the self-sinking of Scapa Flow.


Peruvian newcomers in Callao...

And the Russian "Noviki" served for a long time! Some in Latin America served until the 50s. Yes, there was such a thing: the destroyers "Kapitan 1-go rank Miklukha-Maklay" and "Avtroil" after long adventures were sold by Estonia (to which they were given after the Civil War by the British, who captured the destroyers) to Peru for 400 thousand dollars, where they received the names "Almirante Villar" and "Almirante Guisse". The ships even fought a couple of times in local civil strife and were decommissioned only in 1955.


The Novik's bridge today...

Well, the Novik itself was less lucky: after the revolution it was renamed the Yakov Sverdlov, and it was under this name that it perished during the Tallinn crossing. According to the initial version, the destroyer covered the cruiser Kirov from a torpedo fired by an enemy submarine, but post-war research did not confirm this version — the ship perished on a mine. The former Novik was unlucky: ships of this project were unusually resilient: the destroyer Zabiyaka hit a floating mine near the Dagerort lighthouse on December 24, 1915, but remained afloat, was towed, and put into repairs. It served until 1955 under the name Uritsky; to sink the old ship, an atomic torpedo was needed — the last mission of the Zabiyaka was to participate in the tests of the T-5 nuclear torpedo warhead on September 21, 1955. At the same time, two more Noviks sank to the bottom - Valerian Kuibyshev (née Captain Kern) and Karl Liebknecht (Captain Belli). Although, well, how to the bottom... Kuibyshev really sank, and Liebknecht survived the nuclear explosion that occurred 1600 meters away, was towed to the shallows, and subsequently served as a floating dock in Belushya Bay for a long time. However, along with Novik, the Noviks Artem (former Azard), Volodarsky (former Pobeditel), Kalinin (former Pryamislav) perished in the Tallinn passage...


"Horned Death" on the deck of one of the "noviks"

The combat merits of the Novik-class destroyers are great. In World War I, the cruiser Bremen and the destroyers V-107, S-177, and the patrol ship Freya were sunk by the mines they laid (the rails for the mines on the decks were an excellent technical solution!). During the raid on the German convoy in Norrköping Bay, they sank several escort ships and 2-4 transports. In the Black Sea, their prey included the Turkish gunboats Tash-Kayprü and Chesgar, the German submarine US-13, but most importantly, they interrupted the coal supplies from the Zonguldak coal mines, sinking most of the colliers. During the Civil War, the Noviks Azard and Gavriil sank the English submarine L-55.


“Azard” and “Gabriel” sink the L-55 submarine in Koporye Bay,” art. N. E. Bublikov and G. V. Gorshkov

By the end of World War I, the Novik-class destroyers were no longer the best in the world: British and German destroyers had switched to larger-caliber artillery (120 mm), and the Noviks were no longer record-breaking in speed. Nevertheless, they fought successfully in the Great Patriotic War! It is worth mentioning the Nezamozhnik, formerly the Zante, one of the most distinguished ships of the Black Sea Fleet, which participated in the most famous operations, such as the Feodosia Wake-up Call on December 28-29, 1941. The Noviks of the Northern Fleet, the Uritsky and Kuibyshev, became workhorses, guarding polar convoys - the excellent seaworthiness incorporated into the design of the ships allowed them to successfully withstand the trials of the stormy Barents Sea. In a word - Legend!
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  1. +15
    20 August 2025 05: 50
    Thank you, Gerhard!
    I would like to note one more episode of the civil war:
    In 1919, "Azard", "Gavriil", "Konstantin" and "Svoboda" bore the brunt of the war in the Gulf of Finland with the British fleet. The tragic loss of three destroyers (Gavriil, Konstantin, Svoboda) to mines in the autumn of 1919 summed up the campaign. This event is dedicated to the poems I heard in my childhood:
    - We were heading to the West, the minutes were running out,
    We were heading to the West, as the order said.
    Counting off the miles one by one,
    To where death lay in wait for us.
  2. +5
    20 August 2025 06: 37
    It was the "Noviks" that became the first "zerstrohrers" - destroyers - in the German fleet.
    Wow! Freudian slip.
    "Zerstörer". The German word "Zerstörer" means "destroyer", and is pronounced exactly like that.
    Before writing, it would be a good idea to learn to read, because this word, or rather its correct pronunciation, is encountered extremely often in technical literature.
    It is time.
    Now two. Water-tube boilers have been used on torpedo boats since the 1890s.
    In the photograph provided by the author, the fundamental difference between the boilers of Novik and some Italian destroyer is not in the size, but in the use of curved boiler tubes. This technical solution allows to increase the total heating area, but significantly increases the requirements for boiler water.
    By the way, this is another confirmation of the extremely successful design of the hull of ships of this conventional type. Insufficient rigidity of the hull primarily leads to filtration of seawater and, as a consequence, salinization of feed water.
    For those interested in this glorious page of Russian engineering history, and in a normal, not kindergarten presentation, I can recommend:
    Chernikov, "Russian super destroyers. Legendary "Novinki".
    Second edition, supplemented and expanded. Moscow, "Yauza", "Eksmo", 2011.
    1. +3
      20 August 2025 08: 47
      Well, water-tube boilers were very different, at different times, in different countries. Therefore, in the photograph, it could be a boiler of some Italian destroyer, 19th century, VI of 100 tons.
    2. +11
      20 August 2025 13: 18
      And why such arrogance, which shines through in your comment? Are you always and in everything sinless? ,,"Zerstörer". The German word "Zerstörer" - "destroyer", is pronounced exactly like that.
      Before writing, it would be a good idea to learn to read,,... ,,For those interested in this glorious page of Russian engineering history, and in a normal, not kindergarten presentation, I can recommend: ,,...Just write ,,For those interested in this glorious page of Russian engineering history, I can recommend:,, did something get in the way?
      The article is normal, with interesting photos.
    3. +16
      20 August 2025 14: 47
      To all of the above: I don't read German, my linguistic background is limited to English, Spanish and Farsi (I read with a dictionary), so pronunciation of German words is a dark forest for your humble servant (despite the "German" pseudonym). As for water-tube boilers - I never claimed that they were first installed on the "Noviks". As for the proposed literature... Comparing material in the media with specialized literature is a bit incorrect. By the way, I used an older source: Yuri Stepanov "Destroyer "Novik"" 1981.
    4. +9
      20 August 2025 21: 24
      Quote: Grossvater
      Before you write, it would be a good idea to learn to read.

      It would have been possible to simply point out the mistake, without such moralizing phrases with the desire to humiliate the interlocutor and show one’s superiority.
  3. +5
    20 August 2025 07: 08
    Our ancestors knew how to build quickly and efficiently. And their cranes never fell on the decks of their ships.
  4. -3
    20 August 2025 07: 09
    In my opinion, the main thing where RIF "hit the bull's eye" with the Novik itself and the serial construction of its analogues is that the Noviks occupied the niche of light cruisers, which RIF did not have time to acquire. But for everyday combat in the Gulf of Finland and Riga, the Noviks turned out to be clearly excessive in size.
    1. +3
      21 August 2025 12: 44
      Yes, but they showed themselves well in the North, already during the Second World War. And they did not break down on the wave, like the first Soviet project...
  5. +3
    20 August 2025 07: 50
    The collected money was used to build 18 coal-fired mine cruisers with a displacement of 550-600 tons and a speed of 25 knots: "Voyskovoy", "Dobrovolets", "Kazanets", "Moskvityanin", "Trukhmenets", "Ukraina", "Finn", "Emir Bukharsky", "Donskoy Kazak", "Steregushchiy", "Strashny", "General Kondratenko", "Amurets", "Zabaikalets", "Ussuriets", "Okhotnik", "Pogranichnik", "Sibirsky Strelok". It is interesting that the part of the names of these destroyers that is not dedicated to the heroes of the Russo-Japanese War is given in honor of those parts of the Empire where the money for the construction was collected (Emir Bukharsky was honored with "his" ship!).


    Who, and most importantly, where built these COAL "cruisers"???
    These issues are not covered at all in the article.
    1. +8
      20 August 2025 08: 51
      Actually, the article is about the Noviks. If you are interested in these mine cruisers, Melnikov's book "Destroyers of the Dobrovolets type" is freely available on the Internet.
      1. +1
        20 August 2025 13: 32
        Quote: TermNachTER
        Actually, an article about "Noviki".

        Actually, the article is about the history of the creation of Novikov. It is quite difficult to bypass the Volunteers, the story turned out to be incomplete.
        1. +4
          20 August 2025 14: 00
          I don't see any connection at all. "Volunteers" are the end of the old "coal" destroyers. "Noviki" are fundamentally new ships, the next generation.
          1. -1
            20 August 2025 21: 35
            These "Mine Cruisers" became "coal-fired" in order to "save" and to supposedly speed up construction.
            As well as their weapons.
            1. 0
              20 August 2025 22: 11
              Experiments with oil heating of destroyer boilers were conducted in Russia back in the 19th century and yielded good results. What was the rush in 1906-07? Okay, I understand, in 1913. My opinion is that 17 million of the people's money was thrown down the drain.
              1. +1
                21 August 2025 06: 36
                My opinion is that 17 million of the people's money was thrown down the drain.

                Not a penny fell down Bobik's tail, but thick wads of rubles ended up in various deep pockets.
                And those pockets were in the frock coats of German shipbuilders.
                1. +3
                  21 August 2025 11: 00
                  Well, it's understandable that they stuffed it into their pockets. Well, the people who collected millions by the ruble or fifty kopecks probably felt offended. I understand that the Emir of Bukhara had a lot of money, he gave a million, and didn't become particularly poor. How is he worse than the Malay Sultan? Well, he paid a little less for the boat, but made a nice gesture. But those who saved this ruble or five on themselves? Not good, especially since the money was managed not by the naval ministry, but by the election committee.
                  1. 0
                    21 August 2025 11: 51
                    Ordinary people were most likely told that the "mine cruisers" built with their "patchwork" and "rubles" were real "analogue-free" superships. A sort of "Yamato" in the world of "mine cruisers"!
                    1. 0
                      21 August 2025 12: 08
                      Well, the commission or whoever distributed the money, they were supposedly working for the country. And there were sailors on board who understood what the fleet needed. 17 million rubles is the price of a squadron battleship or a couple of normal cruisers. And they built it - God forgive me
              2. +4
                21 August 2025 12: 46
                Well, why? They built a lot of things with that money: the same "volunteers", several submarines, if I'm not mistaken...
                1. 0
                  21 August 2025 12: 48
                  A few submarines - yes. But why the "volunteers"? By 1914 they had practically no value. Patrol duty, mine laying - was it worth it?
                  1. +2
                    21 August 2025 13: 05
                    As I understand it, it was necessary to urgently saturate the fleet with at least something while the nonsense with coordinating the requirements for the "newbies" was going on. Our bureaucracy showed itself in all its glory in this regard...
                    1. 0
                      21 August 2025 13: 49
                      To satiate?
                      "If they don't have bread, then let them eat cakes!"
                    2. 0
                      21 August 2025 14: 03
                      And what did this rush lead to? Well, we've already talked about the "volunteers". They built three "Bayan II", which was no match for the mare even on the Russian Navy, and "Rurik II", which was also neither a candle to God nor a poker to the devil. Although, of course, the Brits, those lousy allies, played a trick on them. They built "Invincibles" for themselves, and God knows what for the losers.
                      1. +3
                        21 August 2025 17: 49
                        This is not quite true: after the Russo-Japanese War, everywhere, at first, by inertia, they built "Lord Nelsons", "Dantons" and "Radetzkys". The question is not only about money: it is important to keep workers at the shipyards, and for this, shipbuilding must be continuous. At least, if I am not mistaken, this was the argument (one of many) during the construction of the "volunteers" series and other "Andrews Pervozvannys"...
                      2. 0
                        21 August 2025 18: 54
                        I didn't say anything about pre-dreadnoughts, they were built everywhere, including in Russia. And if the Baltic "Andrey" and "Pavel" were normal, average pre-dreadnoughts, not the worst, but not the best, then the Black Sea ones - again, God forgive me, what can I say. The best, in my opinion, were the British "Lord Nelson". But we were talking about "volunteers" and cruisers. Why, according to the old, RYaV-era and not the best project, build three more? I have no explanation. Well, and "Rurik II" is just absurd.
                      3. +4
                        21 August 2025 19: 17
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Why, according to the old method, from the times of the Russian Revolution and not the best project, build three more?

                        They ordered and started construction during the Russian Revolution, so as not to waste time on developing a new project.
                        Besides, they turned out to be pretty good training cruisers...

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Well, "Rurik II" is just plain absurd.

                        What's absurd about it?
                        At that time, the British were building three Minotaurs, the Germans a pair of Scharnhorsts, the French a pair of Edgar Quinets...
                        Also stupid idiots, probably...

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I have no explanation.

                        I can advise you to read reference books: from the dates of ship construction, you can draw conclusions about the trends of major maritime powers.
                      4. 0
                        21 August 2025 19: 35
                        1. And again we return to the moment - was it necessary to "rush the boat"? They were already behind on the RYaV. The project may have been ready, but it did not demonstrate anything good. I am generally surprised - the ships were built "practically across the road", "Bayan" in Toulon, "Kasuga" in Genoa. As much as "Kasuga" turned out to be "in the right color", so much "Bayan" turned out to be, God forgive me.
                        2. At that time, the British were building three Invisibles and designing the next series. The order for the construction of the Von der Tann was issued in September 1907, and by the time of the official laying down it was already under construction. As for France, I can say that they had such shipbuilding programs that you can't figure it out even with a bucket of vodka. And they completely skipped the class of battlecruisers.
                      5. +2
                        21 August 2025 20: 02
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And again we return to the moment - was it necessary to "rush the boat"? They didn't have time for the RYAV.

                        Again, it's you now so smart...

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I am surprised at all - the ships were built "practically across the street"

                        If ships were built according to one specification, then one could be surprised, but no...

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        As much as "Kasuga" turned out to be "in the right color and suit", so too "Bayan" turned out to be, God forgive me.

                        And how did the "Kasuga" turn out to be "in the color and color"? No more than that it survived Tsushima...

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        At this time, the British were building three Invisibles and designing the next series.

                        So what? They told everyone what wonderful ships they were building?

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The order for the construction of the "Von der Tann" was issued in September 1907, and

                        In fact, orders for construction are always issued BEFORE the keel is laid... sometimes long before. You won't believe it, but even before the keel is laid, materials, a slipway, and much more need to be prepared...
                      6. 0
                        21 August 2025 20: 56
                        1. And who didn't let you be smart then? A cruiser is built for 2-3 years, it's clear that it won't make it to the Russian Navy in time.
                        2. For some reason, the South American TTZ is very successful, but the Russian one is completely unclear. The characteristics that were included in it turned out to be unnecessary. And those that were needed - it did not have.
                        3. Actually, the British, supposedly allies, could have quietly whispered. And the attaché in London, for some reason, was also sitting. They didn't let him go to the Clyde and walk past the plant?
                        4. Regarding "Von der Tann" - this is because they were all close in time - "Invincible", "Von der Tann" and "Rurik". But they got a battlecruiser, and we got God knows what.
                      7. +2
                        21 August 2025 21: 10
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        1. And who didn't let you be smart then? A cruiser is built for 2-3 years, it's clear that it won't make it to the Russian Navy in time.

                        Again, you need to know this all in advance...

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        For some reason, the South American TTZ is very successful,

                        Maybe you should read the history of the design of the Garibaldi-type cruise missile cruiser and stop fantasizing? :)

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        and Russian, it’s not clear at all what it’s about.

                        They built a long-range reconnaissance aircraft for the squadron, but they had to fight in different conditions...
                      8. +3
                        21 August 2025 22: 26
                        1. A very convenient explanation - hindsight. Why can't an uncle covered in epaulettes, medals, and aiguillettes think three years ahead? He's paid for it. In 1908 they drew "Novik", and in 1905, who didn't?
                        2. I know the history of the Garibaldi design and I am not fantasizing. The Japanese ordered and bought exactly what they needed in the war. But what those who ordered the Peresvets and Bayans thought - I am interested.
                      9. +3
                        21 August 2025 22: 35
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        A very convenient explanation - hindsight. And why can't an uncle, covered in epaulettes, medals, and aiguillettes, think three years ahead?

                        To think, you need data, and with data, except for the experience of the Russian Nuclear Forces, we don’t have much...

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        In 1908 they drew "Novik", and in 1905, who didn't?

                        Probably for the same reason why the British admirals, having just seen the "Turbinia", did not rush to convert everything to turbines. It was necessary to understand what it is, how to use it, etc.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The Japanese ordered and bought exactly what they needed in the war.

                        The Japanese bought up what was available, nothing more... And they used it as they did, to the best of their ability: and they were very lucky that Tsushima turned out the way it did and that the Nissin and Kasuga survived that battle...

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        But what those who ordered "Peresvetov" and "Bayan" thought - I'm interested.

                        "Peresvets" are a strange little animal, but with "Bayan" everything is more or less clear...
                      10. 0
                        22 August 2025 09: 28
                        1. Wasn't the experience of the Russian Navy enough? In my opinion, more than enough, even the Naval Ministry underwent reforms. Especially since the Committee is not a government structure. People had the opportunity to do what they thought was necessary, and not what their uncle from under Spitz ordered.
                        2. British admirals saw the Turbinia back in 1897, when Parsons demonstrated it at Spithead Roads. And I repeat, the Admiralty is a government agency, with bureaucracy and everything else that is associated with government agencies. But the Committee included independent citizens who seemed to care about the well-being of the fleet.
                        3. Yes, they bought them, but quite successfully. The Italian cruisers were quite close in performance characteristics to the Asama class. Togo put them in the tail, they were practically not fired upon, so there was no particular luck. They also participated in the battle at Shantung.
                        4. I don't know what you understand about the "Bayan". Personally, I don't understand anything. If it was designed as a "cruiser" for a squadron, why does it need a speed of 22 knots? If the squadron crawls at 15-16 knots. And everything else - with the size and displacement of the "Garibaldi", it has half as much artillery. Well, about the armor - you can argue about whose is better? Here, as they say, it's an acquired taste.
                      11. +2
                        22 August 2025 18: 05
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        He put them at the tail, they were practically not shot at, so there was not much luck.

                        "Nissin" - 11 hits, 6 of which were 12".
                        "Kasuga" - 3 hits, 1 - 12", 1 - 6", 1-??

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        If it was designed as a "cruiser" for a squadron, why does it need a speed of 22 knots?

                        It was designed as scout with the squadron to support light forces...
                      12. 0
                        22 August 2025 18: 56
                        1. Regarding "Nissin" - no objections, regarding "Kasuga" - certain doubts - 6 12-inch "suitcases" are somehow too many. I'll have to look.
                        2. A reconnaissance vessel with a squadron to support light forces - that's a bit vague. Again, if a squadron is crawling at 15-16 knots, then 20 knots will be enough for support, and if more is needed, then there are 1st rank armored deck ships for that. A reconnaissance vessel with a squadron could also be, God forgive me, "Boyarin", with its 22 knots.
                      13. +2
                        22 August 2025 19: 04
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        A reconnaissance aircraft with a squadron to support light forces is a bit vague.

                        Read Vinogradov and Fedichkin: they have a wonderful two-volume work on "Bayans"
                      14. 0
                        22 August 2025 19: 46
                        I read this book, as well as Melnikov. By the way, there are no clear drawings for the "Bayan" there, so the book is average. And the theme of the reconnaissance ship - support of light forces, I somehow do not remember. In general, like many other RIF ships, an absurd ship, which does not have a clear tactical focus. Kapraz Abaza really wanted to please the general - admiral - and he succeeded.
                      15. 0
                        25 August 2025 12: 58
                        Me too. Peresvets - a completely vicious idea to cross a snake and a hedgehog. A repost for long-range reconnaissance? For reconnaissance you need the fastest ship that can get away from a stronger enemy. And to create a 7700-ton ship for this, and even weakly armed for such a displacement?
                      16. 0
                        25 August 2025 13: 28
                        "Peresvet" is a complete misunderstanding, no matter how you look at it. "Bayan" is also a set of mistakes. A speed of 22 knots is not needed for a reconnaissance vessel in a squadron that sails at 14-16 knots, and 20 knots is enough. And for long-range reconnaissance there is "Novik". And for cruising in the ocean, its range (officially) is 3400 miles, very little.
                      17. 0
                        24 August 2025 02: 22
                        4. And the Germans got the "Blucher", well, that is, they didn’t know where to put it until the British helped at Dogger Bank.
                      18. 0
                        24 August 2025 10: 16
                        This is also an absolutely absurd ship, but there is a small BUT. When the Germans learned about the "Invincibles", it was already in a high state of readiness. Dismantling it would have been more expensive than completing it. So they decided to complete it. And "Rurik II" was built simply as God put it into their souls. As a result, they got an enlarged "Peresvet" and just as stupid.
                      19. 0
                        24 August 2025 12: 19
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        When the Germans learned about the "Invincibles" he was already at a high level of readiness.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And "Rurik II" was built simply as God put it into his soul.

                        Let's compare some dates...
                        "Rurik"
                        Laid down - August 22, 1905
                        Launched - November 4, 1906
                        Delivered to the customer in August 1908.
                        The transfer period under the contract is - 24 June 1907.

                        "Indomitable"
                        Laid down - March 1, 1906
                        Launched - March 16, 1907
                        Commissioned - August 1908

                        "Blucher"
                        Laid down - February 21, 1907
                        Launched on April 11, 1908.
                        Commissioned on October 01, 1909.

                        So who was easier to cut into needles?
                      20. 0
                        24 August 2025 12: 34
                        "Rurik" was transferred to RIF in August 1908. And when was it officially commissioned? In the summer of 1909. Here I was not talking about the fact that it should have been cut up. But about the fact that it should not have been built at all. Similarly, "Blyukher" is an absolutely useless ship. When in April 1908, it was launched, "Indomitable" went on sea trials. How do you imagine the process of cutting up "Blyukher"? We pull out of the water, a ship that was just launched, and start sawing?)
                      21. 0
                        24 August 2025 12: 49
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And about the fact that it shouldn’t have been built at all.

                        Again, you are reasoning from the point of view of hindsight: in the current reality, the Rurik was considered a prototype of a ballistic missile cruiser for the Baltic.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        We pull the newly launched ship out of the water and start sawing?)

                        In general, that's what we did... I didn't know that this was news to you. :)
                      22. 0
                        24 August 2025 13: 03
                        1. A very convenient explanation for all occasions - hindsight. And why then are there dozens of colonels (captains) and generals (admirals) in the General Staff? At that time, the GP was Germany. The main theater of military operations was the Baltic, the Black Sea - not relevant then. Why do we need a cruiser with a long cruising range and a speed (God forgive me) of 21 knots in the Baltic? As a result, they built an enlarged Peresvet and it was just as useful. Although if you think about it a little, you could have made at least a slightly improved Peresvet with 3 main battery turrets, in the centerline plane.
                        2. When did they pull out of the water and cut up the ship that was launched a couple of months ago? I don't remember.
                      23. +2
                        24 August 2025 13: 16
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        A very convenient explanation for all occasions is afterknowledge.

                        For you - yes... Since you are constantly in the position of the wife from the old Odessa proverb: if only I were as smart now as my wife was later.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I don't really remember.

                        "Washington", "Caracciollo", for example...
                      24. 0
                        24 August 2025 13: 18
                        1. Everyone's personal opinion. If it's convenient for you, then go ahead.
                        2. The example is simply gorgeous))) and it doesn't matter that they were cut AFTER the war, when there were simply UNMEASURED ships of all classes. And we are talking about the fact that the war will begin in the near foreseeable future.
                      25. 0
                        24 August 2025 13: 20
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        1. Everyone's personal opinion. If it's convenient for you, then go ahead.

                        As you wish.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And we are talking about the fact that the war will begin in the near future.

                        And who whispered in your ear that it would begin?
                      26. 0
                        24 August 2025 13: 42
                        Well, of course, there were no prerequisites - the Agadir crisis, for example. The fact that Germany may not have wanted to fight, or may have wanted to? Who can say for sure now, after more than 100 years, does not mean that it would not have been dragged into the war, in one way or another. When London decided that there would be a war - then there would be one. And those in Berlin, who sat in the General Staff and the Admiral's Staff, could not help but understand this. Well, unless they are complete imbeciles)))
                      27. 0
                        24 August 2025 14: 05
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Who can say for sure now, more than 100 years later, does not mean that she would not have been drawn into the war in some way or another.

                        Such reasoning can lead to many places... :)
                        There are some wild heads who, with a straight face, assume that since the Shipbuilding Program was supposed to be completed in 1905, that means Nikolai was going to fight Japan in that same year of 1905. :)
                      28. 0
                        24 August 2025 15: 15
                        And when did this end of the shipbuilding program mean the beginning of the war? Hitler was going to finish "Plan Z" in 1946.
                      29. +1
                        24 August 2025 16: 13
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Hitler's "Plan Z" was supposed to be completed in 1946.

                        In 48 ...

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        And when did the end of the shipbuilding program mean the beginning of the war?

                        The same Hitler told Raeder that it was pointless to start a war with the British before 48.
                      30. +1
                        24 August 2025 12: 05
                        Quote: Grencer81
                        that they didn't know where to put it until the British helped at Dogger Bank.

                        The Germans understood everything perfectly well, which is why from 11 onwards, the Blucher was effectively a training and artillery ship, where elements of the SUAO for new ships were tested. With the beginning of WWI, it served in the Baltic as part of the 4th squadron.
                        In November 14, he was transferred to the 1st reconnaissance group "for the sake of numbers": while waiting for the completion of the combat training course for "Derfflinger". But due to the failure of the machines on "Von der Tann", "Blücher" was delayed in the 1st reconnaissance group, and so he ended up at Dogger Bank...
                      31. 0
                        24 August 2025 12: 39
                        Those thousand German mugs didn't give a damn what they died from. I won't even mention the German admirals - it's a clinic) then they put an old cruiser in the same column with battlecruisers. Then they add a brigade of battleships to the "Hochsee Flotte" so that the number of pennants during Jutland would be greater) there they were lucky that the British were in a mess and these battleships didn't get caught in the crossfire)
                      32. 0
                        24 August 2025 13: 00
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Those thousand German mugs didn't give a damn about why they died.

                        For me it's even more so... :)

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        I won't even mention the German admirals.

                        When there was no other option, we had to come up with "original" solutions...

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        the old cruiser is placed in the same column with battlecruisers

                        At Jutland (for the sake of purity of the experiment), the speed of the 1st reconnaissance group fluctuated in the range of 18-24 knots...
                        At Dogger Bank - from 18 to 23 knots. You will say: "Blyukher is to blame...", but no. And after the destruction of "Blyukher" the 1st reconnaissance group still left at 23 knots.
                      33. 0
                        24 August 2025 13: 15
                        At Dogger Bank, after the loss of the Blucher, Hipper's battlecruisers were damaged and were unlikely to reach speeds faster than 23 knots, especially since the Moltke's maximum was 25,5 knots under normal conditions. It had already been sailing for three years, so the condition of the control system was far from ideal.
                      34. 0
                        24 August 2025 13: 27
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Hipper's battlecruisers were damaged and were unlikely to be able to reach speeds faster than 23 knots, especially since the Moltke's maximum was 25,5 knots.

                        According to the records of the railway document, the damage received did not affect the course.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        especially since the Moltke had a maximum speed of 25,5 knots under normal conditions.

                        The Hipper's report did not indicate that full speed was limited by anything other than the Blucher...
                      35. 0
                        24 August 2025 13: 37
                        1. Entries in the ZhBD and commanders' reports are written later and adjusted to what the command needs. Three hits of 343 mm. + almost two hundred killed and no problems with the course? They did not extinguish the fires with seawater, the waves did not wash over the holes? The weather is fresh by the way - January, in the North Sea - this is not a pound of raisins.
                        Hipper wrote his report after the battle and he had to somehow explain - where did the cruiser and a thousand crew members go?
                      36. 0
                        24 August 2025 14: 01
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The fires weren't put out with seawater, and the waves weren't washing over the holes?

                        Maybe you can read whatever and wherever you want?
                        Staff's book is available online, as are German documents.

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The weather is fresh by the way - it's January

                        ONO 4 points, a little excitement...

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        he needed to explain somehow

                        I see... Pikul's case is flourishing. laughing
                      37. 0
                        24 August 2025 15: 19
                        I explained my attitude to Pikul to you. About reports, certificates, etc., what they write after a battle. Working in the police, I also wrote reports, explanatory notes, certificates, on the basis of which I had to close unimplemented operational search operations. Therefore, I know how such papers are written and what their value is.
                      38. 0
                        24 August 2025 16: 11
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Because I know how such papers are written and what their price is.

                        And then the responsible commanders from the Big Headquarters and with Big Shoulder Boards draw up a list of questions regarding the discrepancy between events in the squadron’s combat mission, and the uncles with three or four snots on their sleeves write explanations. :)
                      39. +1
                        24 August 2025 14: 28
                        To stick it in "for the sake of numbers" is very interesting. It's like in a sabotage and reconnaissance group everyone has an AK, and one has a penknife.
                      40. +1
                        24 August 2025 16: 08
                        Quote: Grencer81
                        It's like in a sabotage and reconnaissance group, everyone has an AK, and one has a penknife.

                        More likely with Stechkin...
                        Well, what can you do if this happened?
                    3. 0
                      21 August 2025 18: 07
                      Quote: Flying_Dutchman
                      As I understand it, it was necessary to urgently saturate the fleet with at least something while the nonsense with coordinating the requirements for the "newbies" was going on.

                      In general, it would be nice to look at the material: all the "volunteers" were ordered and construction began during the RYaV period, when "noviki" were not even dreamed of...
                2. 0
                  21 August 2025 13: 47
                  What successes were those submarines famous for?
                  1. +3
                    21 August 2025 17: 52
                    In principle, Russian submarines have had a hard time achieving success. Just like the English and French. And the issue is not the quality of the ships, or the level of training of the personnel. It's just that the Germans had England with its huge merchant fleet as an adversary, so the German submariners simply had their eyes wide open from the abundance of targets. And the Russians and the English were sad in this regard: "German Lloyd" was driven into the harbor, what was left to sink?...
                    1. 0
                      21 August 2025 20: 22
                      They could have tried their luck when the Germans tried to get through the Moonzund minefields...
                      And the boats themselves were very far from the perfection of those times.
                      They piled Dzhevetsky's "apparatuses" on the hulls (to save space inside the boats), and then abandoned them.
                      Didn't live up to expectations.
    2. +1
      20 August 2025 13: 30
      Quote: hohol95
      Who, and most importantly, where built these COAL "cruisers"???
      These issues are not covered at all in the article.

      Exactly. The author has thrown out a large chunk of Novikov's history by ignoring the series of the first sea-going destroyers.
    3. +7
      20 August 2025 14: 49
      Absolutely right. Since the material is not about them, but about "Noviki". If you wish, I can touch upon this project too)))
      1. 0
        20 August 2025 21: 32
        What caused this "cutting"?
        From the "dogs" of the Russo-Japanese War you jumped straight to "Novik" and "cut out" the murky story with the "volunteers".
        Although the appearance of German Eminians with power plants "from a Russian order" is no less a "mysterious story".
        For their new destroyers (and not only) Russian shipbuilders ordered "motors" from the main potential enemy...
        And not only "motors", but also light cruisers - "Muravyov-Amursky" and "Nevelskoy"...
        1. +1
          20 August 2025 22: 13
          Many ordered from friends who later became enemies. Or from such friends that they don't need enemies, like England. Just one "Rurik II" is worth something.
          1. 0
            21 August 2025 06: 42
            In 1913, both the Entente and the Triple Alliance had already been formed!
            The German Empire was among the main opponents, but Russian naval officials continued their warm friendship with German industrialists!
            And then they "sprinkled their heads with ashes" and looked for new suppliers of turbines for the destroyers under construction during the First World War!
            1. +2
              21 August 2025 11: 04
              Unfortunately, nothing can be done. Turbine production at that time was a very complex technology and not everyone had it. Therefore, they had to buy from the English or the Germans. And there was the corruption component, and the Baltic Germans, who, although they lived in Russia, considered themselves Germans.
              1. +1
                21 August 2025 11: 54
                I read that in some books on the history of the production of warships in the Russian Empire, some historians indicated the production of turbines in the Russian Empire itself.
                But in reality, the turbines were assembled from foreign-made parts!
                1. +1
                  21 August 2025 12: 50
                  Well, I also read that turbine wheels, blades, and some other parts were ordered abroad and assembled in Russia. Therefore, alas, it was impossible to do without help from England or Germany.
                  1. 0
                    20 November 2025 10: 35
                    They wanted a full cycle of turbine production, at least at the top, but they couldn’t, and in my opinion, they didn’t want to.
                    1. 0
                      20 November 2025 11: 01
                      As for "wanted," it was either Raikin or Khazanov: "He wanted it too." The problem was, they couldn't. Unfortunately, the overall level of mechanical engineering was weak, and the steam turbine, for its time, was a technological marvel. Only a few countries had a full steam turbine production cycle at the time. Even Italy, which built very good ships, sourced some of its parts from England, but assembly took place in Italian shipyards.
                      1. 0
                        20 November 2025 12: 35
                        So why were the Bolsheviks able to do it in the 30s? They bought it too, but they completely organized the entire production cycle.
                        Although this is a purely rhetorical question.
                        From memory, the topic of turbines in the Russian Empire is well covered on the Zen channel "MIR Sea, History, Russia," including which factories mastered turbine production to what extent, and why. The problem isn't that they couldn't, but in many cases, they didn't want to. For some, it was more profitable to import than to manufacture locally, and the authorities failed to show the will. They said we couldn't organize production and assembly in Kharkiv, and the West, the British, would help us.
                        Then, turbines for the Black Sea battleships had to be hauled around Europe and across Russia from Arkhangelsk to Nikolaev, when they weren't delivered in time with the outbreak of WWI. Those same Izmail ships, for which the British turbines were never fully assembled, were also involved.
                        In general, the story with turbines is murky.
                      2. 0
                        20 November 2025 12: 46
                        The Bolsheviks weren't much of a threat in the 30s either. The Kirov cruiser's propulsion system was made in Italy, as was the design itself. The Tashkent leader was entirely Italian, except for its artillery.
        2. +1
          21 August 2025 12: 48
          How were the "volunteers" fundamentally different from the earlier mine cruisers I wrote about? In my opinion, nothing. The "Emir Bukharsky" would have looked great in the Russo-Japanese war, but the "noviki" were a completely different level!
          1. 0
            21 August 2025 12: 52
            Here I am, the people's money was spent absolutely senselessly. "Volunteer" is a slightly enlarged destroyer of the "Buiny" type with two 102-mm. guns. And why was it necessary to build them? By 1914 they were not suitable for battles with the new German destroyers.
            1. +3
              21 August 2025 13: 51
              Initially, the "volunteers" were equipped with 75mm guns.
              There were no 102mm.
              Later, 75mm was replaced by 102mm.
              1. +1
                21 August 2025 13: 56
                I won't argue. I was never particularly interested in "volunteers". From the Russian Navy I immediately went to WWI, in the interwar period, I was interested in the battleships "Sevastopol", cruisers, "Noviki". But these misunderstandings - not so much.
                1. +1
                  21 August 2025 13: 58
                  But these "misunderstandings" fought to the best of their ability in the First World War and the Civil War.
                  1. 0
                    21 August 2025 14: 06
                    That's exactly it, in moderation, but that moderation was very small. And in the Civil War, what didn't fight? Including non-self-propelled barges and paddle steamers.
                    1. 0
                      21 August 2025 16: 10
                      That "measure" wasn't really that small -
                      On the night of 4/17 August 1915, General Kondratenko and Okhotnik repelled an attack by two new German destroyers, V-99 and V-100, which had made their way into the bay under the shore. They had been sent to sink Slava, which was the main threat to the breakthrough forces of the German squadron. Having disappeared into the darkness, they were discovered in Arensburg Bay by the destroyers Ukraina and Voyskovoy. Having illuminated them with searchlights (following the example of German tactics), our ships opened fire on them and simultaneously attacked with torpedoes. The torpedoes missed, but the Germans, having been hit by several shells, retreated to the Mikhailovsky lighthouse. Here, Novik blocked their path, driving one of them (V-99) into a minefield, where it sank from an explosion, while the second managed to escape. This battle showed with certainty that even 25-knot piston destroyers could successfully fight 35-knot turbine destroyers. After all, Novik spent its entire 17-minute battle at a speed of 17 knots and achieved success due to exceptionally competent maneuvering and exemplary artillery art, when the ship's entire artillery, consisting of 4 102-mm guns, was used with the greatest efficiency (keeping the enemy at a constant course angle).


                      "Volunteer-class destroyers"

                      Melnikov Rafail Mikhailovich
                      1. 0
                        21 August 2025 16: 45
                        I would be very careful about descriptions of battles in the Gulf of Riga, because sometimes official descriptions directly contradict real events. For example, the heroic descriptions of the battle of the destroyer "Grom". I do not deny that some of the "volunteers" could have had a short skirmish with the Germans. Well, and the German himself could have flown into the minefield, in the process of maneuvering, without any help from the "Novik".
                      2. 0
                        21 August 2025 17: 41
                        How is the 10th Destroyer Flotilla?
                        Without any "news" they lost 7 destroyers out of 11!
                      3. 0
                        21 August 2025 18: 18
                        Well, such massive losses, due to combat or navigational reasons, did happen.
                      4. 0
                        21 August 2025 20: 35
                        US Navy 1923.
                        The destroyers, like whales, washed ashore on the rocks.
                      5. 0
                        21 August 2025 21: 02
                        Well, or as the English call it - "The Battle of May")))
                      6. 0
                        21 August 2025 21: 35
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Well, or as the English call it - "The Battle of May")))

                        Very funny... :)
                        In English it will be - Battle of May Island, that is, the Battle of May Island.
                      7. -1
                        21 August 2025 22: 28
                        Well, actually it was named that because it happened in May.
                      8. +2
                        21 August 2025 22: 43
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Well, actually it was named that because it happened in May.

                        If the night from January 31 to January 1, 1918 was in May - so be it... :)
                      9. 0
                        22 August 2025 09: 32
                        Possibly. I read about it a long time ago, I don't remember all the details.
            2. +1
              21 August 2025 18: 00
              Quote: TermNachTER
              And why was it necessary to build them?

              After 120 years it's good to be smart...
              If you look at when the "volunteers" were ordered and laid down, you will have practically no questions left.
              1. 0
                21 August 2025 18: 20
                That's why the military-political leadership of the country exists - to forecast, plan and implement. What was the point of "volunteers" in 1914? And what about "Bayan II" or "Rurik II"?
                1. 0
                  21 August 2025 18: 32
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  That is why the military-political leadership in the country exists: to forecast, plan and implement.

                  Yeah... I wish I was as smart now as my wife was later. (c)

                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  What was the use of "volunteers" in 1914?

                  You know that it will be the 14th year, but in 1904 you didn’t know about it.
                  1. 0
                    21 August 2025 18: 47
                    That's what intelligence and the General Staff are for - to collect information, analyze it and report the findings to the leadership. That in 1904-05, there was a direct threat of war with Germany? Somewhere until 1907, when Russia was not dragged into the Entente, it was purely theoretical.
                    And why did the admirals and corporals sit in the naval ministry and the general staff? Were they getting into trouble? They were paid money, and not small by Russian standards, for thinking.
                    1. +1
                      21 August 2025 19: 07
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      That is why intelligence and the General Staff exist - to collect information, analyze it and report the findings to the leadership.

                      All this will help, especially if you remember that WWI actually came out of nowhere...

                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      And why did the admirals and corporals sit in the naval ministry and the general staff?

                      Again, you measure everything by hindsight.
                      The first serial turbine EMs in Britain - 1097, in Germany - 1908, in France - 1909....
                      In the early series (1904-05) there were single experimental ships, but something tells me that they were not widely publicized.
                      1. 0
                        21 August 2025 19: 26
                        WWI didn't come out of nowhere - mutual claims were piling up. The Agadir crisis, the Caroline crisis. So, things were heading towards war, although it's understandable - no one knew the exact date. And Gavrilo Princip, how suspiciously quickly he kicked the bucket in a cell, you have to understand, so that he wouldn't blurt out anything unnecessary.
                        That's what I'm saying, why the rush with the "volunteers"? If in two or three ships of a completely different class appeared. And a destroyer is not a battleship, it can be built at almost any shipyard. The Black Sea "noviki" were built, including in my favorite city of Kherson, at the shipyard of the merchant Vadon and nothing, they came out of quite normal quality. So, the loss of two or three years on the "volunteers" was not a problem of strategic scale.
                      2. +1
                        21 August 2025 19: 43
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        That's what I'm saying, why the rush with the "volunteers"? If in two or three ships of a completely different class appeared.

                        And you are persistent... laughing
                        I repeat, the "volunteers" were ordered and built at that time, no one even dreamed of turbine destroyers, but it was necessary to think about how to replenish them current military losses...

                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        So, the loss of two or three years on “volunteers” was not a problem of strategic scale.

                        Why two?
                        The last "volunteers" entered service in 1907. "Novik" - in 1913, the first "noviks" (Derzkiy class) - in 1914...
                      3. 0
                        21 August 2025 20: 49
                        "Turbinia", which is very similar to a destroyer and its speed, was assessed by officers, I don't remember whether "Rossiya" or "Gromoboy", in the English Channel, somewhere in the year 1900 + or -. So, the turbine was not some kind of transcendental secret. It is clear that the British were ahead of everyone, for many reasons. To make up for that, no one argues, but wisely. Moreover, the commission that chose the types of ships included naval officers. They should have understood that "volunteers" are yesterday's news. To blame naval bureaucrats or ramoliments, somehow does not work.
                        What prevented them from starting the design of the Novik earlier? Everyone understood that the destroyers of the next generation would be larger and more powerful. And they needed to be faster. Alas, everything I've read about the Noviks doesn't explain why the Special Committee started work in December 1905, well, let's start with 1906, in 1908 the factories were sent preliminary conditions and the contract was signed in the summer of 1909, so the "gap" between the last "volunteers" and the Novik was about three years.
                    2. +2
                      22 August 2025 09: 52
                      Did the Russian Empire and its navy have technical intelligence at that time?
                      Big question!
                      1. 0
                        22 August 2025 10: 51
                        And there was no such tough counterintelligence regime as it became later. The MI-5 service was created in 1909. You could easily go to the Clyde, walk around the shipyard, look at the shipyard from the opposite bank of the river, it is not that wide, but you can take binoculars. You can talk to the workers from the shipyard, fortunately, the gentlemen officers spoke languages ​​then. You could meet an engineer from the shipyard, especially since the shipyard was private, give him some money and find out a little more about the ship under construction. There is a lot you can do if you want to achieve something. Of course, it is much easier to sit in London and cut out articles from newspapers (magazines) about the fleet.
                      2. 0
                        24 August 2025 13: 49
                        And what did the naval attachés do in the host countries? Well, if we say correctly, what were they supposed to do?
                      3. 0
                        24 August 2025 15: 00
                        Did these attachés fulfill their official duties?
                        A question for historians of domestic special services.
                      4. 0
                        24 August 2025 15: 13
                        Or to these misunderstandings, hung with epaulettes and medals, but doing nothing at all? Japanese attachés in Europe were considered spies a priori and they did not even take offense.
          2. 0
            21 August 2025 13: 55
            Number of 75mm guns.
            If the Russian "destroyers" in Port Arthur had two or three 75mm guns instead of one and a "bunch" of 47mm guns, the Japanese "destroyers" would have had a very difficult time.
            1. 0
              21 August 2025 14: 07
              What prevented them from installing a second 75mm? The Japanese quickly got it done, no special modifications were required.
              1. +1
                21 August 2025 16: 04
                Probably the lack of brains among the senior ranks of the Russian Navy or the design features of the "falcons" and other destroyers that fought in Port Arthur or Tsushima.
                A third 2mm gun was added to the destroyers of the 102nd division, which required major alterations. Due to insufficient stability, all three 102mm guns on each ship were installed in the stern, and the vacated space on the forecastle was allocated for a 75mm anti-aircraft gun. Much was done in accordance with the views and intuition of the commanders due to the lack of a single rearmament project (one group of ships was repaired by the state-owned Revel port, the other by the private Russo-Baltic Plant in Revel).


                "Volunteer-class destroyers"

                Melnikov Rafail Mikhailovich
                1. +2
                  21 August 2025 16: 54
                  Well, that was when they started adding a third 102mm., which was clearly too much. We actually said that the Japanese, during the Russian Yamal-Nenets Autonomous Area War, figured out pretty quickly that one 76mm. and five 57mm. were not enough. And they started replacing one 57mm. with a second 76mm. The firepower certainly increased, but not to say that it did so significantly. A destroyer is a very poor artillery platform. And in fresh weather, even worse. That's why they tried to compensate for the instability of the platform with a large number of rapid-fire guns - if you "pour" fire at the enemy from a large number of rapid-fire guns, you never know, some shell might hit.
                  1. 0
                    21 August 2025 17: 44
                    Of course, 57mm is not 75/76mm, but it is also not Russian 47mm or 37mm.
                    The projectiles are a little heavier.
                    This means that the damage caused will be slightly greater than 37/47 Russian destroyers.
                    1. 0
                      21 August 2025 18: 50
                      The difference with the Russian 47mm is not great. The fragmentation and high explosive action is practically non-existent. If you do not consider that the 37mm is just a firecracker, 20 grams of black powder sometimes did not even explode the shell.
            2. +1
              24 August 2025 13: 50
              The second 75mm was installed on the "Strong" in April 1904, but this did not go any further.
          3. 0
            20 November 2025 14: 53
            The term "mine cruiser" is too broad a concept; Novik the First and Kamushki were also initially called mine cruisers, not to mention the earlier ones.
            British Rivers were launched on the 02nd, with a displacement of 500-600 tons and a speed of 26 knots, with a raised forecastle. Does that ring a bell? I mean, the Volunteers had plenty of prototypes around the world.
            I don’t argue that the second one is a qualitative leap.
            Although it’s in vain that they hate the Volunteers, good EMs that ours lacked in the RYAV.
  6. +5
    20 August 2025 08: 23
    However, let's return to our destroyers. The agreed requirements for the ship were as follows: speed - 35 knots, seaworthiness - allowing to perform combat missions in wind of 8-9 points and sea state of 6-7 points, cruising range - 86 hours of continuous sailing at a speed of 21 knots, in other words - 1800 miles.

    We don't have warships with such characteristics in the 21st century, but at the beginning of the 20th century we had...
    1. +3
      20 August 2025 10: 01
      Capitalism and the parquet set of admirals are the reason for the lack of high-quality ships in the near sea zone.
      1. +1
        20 August 2025 13: 33
        Quote: Severok
        Capitalism and the Admiral's Parquet Setthe reason for the lack of high-quality ships in the near sea zone.

        belay in the Russian Empire in 1912 socialism was or fighting admirals - since they built the Noviki????? fool
        You need to pull the owl more smoothly, otherwise it will burst with laughter
    2. +4
      20 August 2025 14: 51
      It's hard to compare: today there are different requirements - when the "noviki" were built, aviation was taking its first steps, so speed was a fundamental parameter for a destroyer. Now - everything is a little different: you can't run from an airplane or a missile, so 32 knots for a combat ship cause cries of delight...
  7. +6
    20 August 2025 09: 14
    Thank you for the article. All the information is well-known, but well collected and illustrated. I read it with pleasure.
  8. +7
    20 August 2025 11: 18
    The first turbine was installed by the British in 1899 on the experimental ship "Turbinia".

    Well, calling "Turbinia" a ship is too grandiose; it was not a large yacht, if not a boat in size. what
    The experiment was later repeated on the destroyers Viper and Cobra: the ships, with a displacement of 370 tons, were able to accelerate to 30 knots, an unprecedented speed at that time.

    The threshold of 30 knots had already been passed. Some Japanese fleet counter-destroyers went up to 32, and "Captain Burakov", a Russian fleet destroyer, a trophy of the Chinese Boxer Rebellion, ran up to 35.
    Another thing is that the turbines were much lighter with the same power, which made it possible to “play” with the displacement, increasing protection, armament or cruising range by increasing fuel reserves. what
    1. 0
      24 August 2025 13: 53
      No Japanese destroyers of the RYA period went 32 knots, some, built in England, slightly exceeded 30 knots during trials. Their usual operational speed during the war was somewhere around 28 knots.
  9. +5
    20 August 2025 11: 23
    Good article, thanks author. The fact that V-99 and V-100 were "relatives" of "Novik" is a revelation for me. And what a fate - in the huge theater of operations of WWI they will meet in open combat)!
    A little note:
    102mm gun on the stern of the Novik Nezamozhnik, formerly Zante

    There are 3 of them, but in the foreground is still Lender's 76 mm paper.
    1. +1
      20 August 2025 14: 52
      A little behind the anti-aircraft guns, on the superstructure)))
      1. +2
        20 August 2025 14: 53
        Quote: Flying_Dutchman
        A little behind the anti-aircraft guns, on the superstructure)))

        Behind the anti-aircraft gun, there are two more on the deck).
        Okay, it's not critical. It's just a bit of an eyesore)
  10. +3
    20 August 2025 11: 30
    A good article, informative and - most importantly - not overloaded with unnecessary technical details, which are usually a problem for specialized monographs.
  11. +7
    20 August 2025 11: 49
    Yes, there was such a thing: the destroyers “Captain 1st Rank Miklukha-Maclay” and “Avtroil”, after long adventures, were sold by Estonia (to which they were given after the Civil War by the British, who captured the destroyers) to Peru for 400 thousand dollars, where they received the names “Almirante Villar” and “Almirante Guisse”.

    Not after, but during the Civil War. The destroyers were transferred to Estonia almost immediately after capture, on January 2-3, 1919, receiving new names:
    "Wambola" - former "Captain 1st rank Miklouho-Maclay" and "Spartak";
    "Lennuk" - former "Avtroil".
    Already under the Estonian flag, this pair of destroyers took part in the joint offensive of the Whites, Estonians, Finns and British on Petrograd, landing troops and shelling the shore.
    On January 17, a detachment of six ships of the Estonian Navy, led by the destroyer Lennuk with a landing battalion (about 400 people) and the 1st detachment of Finnish volunteers (approximately 600 people), left Kunda.
    The coast in this area was guarded by about 1500 Red Army soldiers of the 6th and 10th rifle divisions. After a short battle, the landing force captured Udrija and the city of Hungerburg (now Narva-Jõesuu) on January 18, and the city of Narva by 19 a.m. on January 9.

    The use of the destroyers ended when the attackers entered the 12"/52 radius of fire of the Krasnaya Gorka fort - after several hits it was decided not to risk the best ships of the Estonian fleet.
    But in peacetime, the Noviks turned out to be too gluttonous for the limitrof. One of their friendship visits to Helsinki ate up almost the entire annual supply of liquid fuel of the proud and independent fleet. So the Estonians had to sell the destroyers even though they were assigned an important role in the joint Finnish-Estonian plan to defend the mine-artillery position.
  12. +6
    20 August 2025 13: 11
    "At the same time, two more "noviks" sank to the bottom - "Valerian Kuibyshev" (née "Captain Kern") and "Karl Liebknecht" ("Captain Belli"). Although, well, how to the bottom... "Kuybyshev" actually sank, and "Liebknecht" withstood the nuclear explosion that occurred 1600 meters away, was towed aground, and subsequently served for a long time as a floating dock in Belushya Bay."
    Dear author! As part of the 241st brigade of experimental ships, under the command of Captain 1st Rank P.A. Berdyashkin, the 3 Noviks of the Northern Fleet you describe actually served and participated in the tests on Novaya Zemlya. BUT!
    On October 03, 1955, after decontamination (water was taken to decontaminate the ship directly from the sea where the explosion took place, and with the help of 100% nitric acid), the destroyer Valerian Kuibyshev independently left the Black Bay in a wake column along with other ships and vessels. When approaching Kolguev Island, during a storm, the ship's water heating tubes in the boiler began to leak. The malfunction was fixed. About 40-50 minutes later, the situation repeated itself. The destroyer dropped anchor. The approaching guards destroyer Gremyashchy pumped out some of the fuel oil from the Kubyshev and left for Molotovsk (Severodvinsk). A tugboat arrived from the village of Ponoy in the Murmansk Region and towed the Valerian Kuibyshev. On October 13, 1955, the destroyer moored at berth #5 of the Belomorskaya Naval Base, where the experimental ships of the "Berdyashkina Brigade" were based (today these are the berths on Yuzhnye Yagry, the territory of the JSC CS "Zvezdochka", where the nuclear cruiser "Kirov" ("Admiral Ushakov") is quietly rotting away. The destroyer actively emitted radiation at the berth until 1957, making a significant contribution for almost 2 years to the radioactive contamination of the ships and personnel of the brigade, cadets of the SHMAS (school of junior aviation specialists, which was then on Yagry Island in Molotovsk (Sevrodvinsk), workers of "Zvezdochka". In this, it was "assisted" by the radioactive Guards destroyer "Gremyashchiy", until in the fall of 1957 "Gremyashchiy" was finished off during tests on Novaya Zemlya, and "Kuibyshev" began to be dismantled for scrap metal...
  13. +2
    20 August 2025 13: 45
    The article left a mixed impression. On the one hand, many interesting details are given, on the other hand, no less are omitted. By ignoring the Volunteer-class destroyers, the author seemed to have turned the chronology inside out. They were the first seaworthy destroyers of the Russian Empire fleet, laying the foundation for a new class - the destroyer. And it cannot be said that the author does not know about them, they are even mentioned in the article. In passing. Meanwhile, the first Volunteers were ordered from German shipyards and were supposed to be part of the 2nd Pacific Squadron. Even trained crews from the Baltic BBRs were transferred to them to speed up their introduction. But... "..it turned out as always", they did not have time to complete the construction and the BBRs were sent into battle, with new recruits in the crew.

    It is interesting that in the previous article the author for some reason posted a photo of the German destroyer S-42, which is considered to be the prototype of the Russian Volunteers. But in the new article the author ignored this important piece of history.
    1. +7
      20 August 2025 14: 55
      Unfortunately, it is impossible to embrace the immensity: several serious monographs are dedicated to the same "Noviki", to cram everything into a small journalistic material means to make it unreadable. Something has to be sacrificed...
      1. -2
        20 August 2025 22: 20
        Quote: Flying_Dutchman
        Unfortunately, you can't embrace the immensity

        In this case, a weak justification. Volunteers built in a fairly large series became a qualitative step from close-range ships to destroyers. And in WWI they were actively used as squadron support ships in combat.
        1. +1
          21 August 2025 12: 54
          Yes, they fought actively, but as for the "qualitative step"... I wouldn't be so decisive here. A qualitative step is the "Novik" with a qualitatively different power plant, and the "volunteers" are not even the next step, but marking time. However, this does not mean that the ships were bad, they fought in the First World War without problems, but this can be said about all the ships of the Russo-Japanese War, the "Tsesarevich" also fought, as did the "Aurora"...
          1. 0
            21 August 2025 13: 45
            Quote: Flying_Dutchman
            Yes, they fought actively, but as for “quality steps”... I wouldn’t be so decisive here.

            Namely, quality. The rejection of coastal small fry and a decisive transition to mine cruisers later called destroyers. This was the moment of birth of the new class. The new ones are already a logical work on mistakes, many of which could have been avoided almost immediately.
            1. +1
              21 August 2025 18: 00
              Abandonment of small things - yes, but mine cruisers had been built for a long time by that time, and how did the "volunteers" differ from older representatives of this class? And I just wrote about "abandonment of small things"... I had the idea to write about the "volunteers", but I deliberately abandoned it - so as not to inflate the volume of material. Precisely because technically there was nothing new in them...
              1. 0
                21 August 2025 21: 44
                Quote: Flying_Dutchman
                Precisely because technically there was nothing new in them...

                What was new was the very fact of accepting the sea-going destroyer as the main class, not individual experiments as before with mine cruisers, but now the main, basic class. And for technical shortcomings, Rafail Melnikov poured a good bucket of bile on the MTC and the bureaucracy of that time in his book. And he was basically right, much of what was done in Noviki was known even at the stage of ordering the Volunteers.
          2. 0
            20 November 2025 11: 20
            I agree, the British were busy building a seaworthy series of River-class destroyers, realizing that record speeds and carpass decks mean little in real conditions.
  14. +4
    20 August 2025 15: 05
    Ivan Bubnov knew a thing or two about strength of materials...
    Of course, I knew. The Bubnov-Galerkin method is still used.
  15. +2
    20 August 2025 17: 53
    Quote: Flying_Dutchman
    To all of the above: I don't read German, my linguistic background is limited to English, Spanish and Farsi (I read with a dictionary), so pronunciation of German words is a dark forest for your humble servant (despite the "German" pseudonym). As for water-tube boilers - I never claimed that they were first installed on the "Noviks". As for the proposed literature... Comparing material in the media with specialized literature is a bit incorrect. By the way, I used an older source: Yuri Stepanov "Destroyer "Novik"" 1981.

    Hmmm!
    How else can one read this phrase of yours:
    "It was decided to install water-tube boilers for feeding the turbines with steam - they provided a more complete return of steam energy, high maneuverability, smaller weight and dimensions. Well, water-tube boilers were much better suited to oil heating, and the mine cruisers of the new project were supposed to be oil-fired from the very beginning"?
    By the name of the type of ships of the German fleet.
    The term "Zershtörer" is found in engineering and historical literature on almost every page, so I thought that the person reading this should be familiar with this term. Sorry.
    Well, it is customary, whenever possible, to use the pronunciation of the names of engineering structures or their types that is closest to the pronunciation of the language of the country of manufacture.
    Of course, exceptions are possible; for example, Patyanin, in a book dedicated to the cruisers of the Arethusa type, warns the reader with a special footnote that he will use the pronunciation of the names of the ships that is historically accepted in Russian-language technical and historical literature.
    Not a bad habit, in my opinion?
    1. +1
      21 August 2025 12: 56
      This is not a book about cruisers. This is not a book at all. Do not confuse a monograph with journalistic material. These are different genres, with different requirements...
  16. 0
    20 August 2025 17: 55
    Quote: Yuri_K_Msk
    A good article, informative and - most importantly - not overloaded with unnecessary technical details, which are usually a problem for specialized monographs.

    Well, it depends! As the song goes: "Everyone chooses for themselves"...
  17. +1
    20 August 2025 17: 56
    It is no less interesting that on August 17, Novik single-handedly entered into battle with two of its German “clones” – V-99 and V-100 in the Gulf of Riga. And emerged victorious! The Russian 102-mm guns turned out to be better than the German 88-mm guns,

    The main difference from the German destroyers was that the Novik had an optical rangefinder on board. Thanks to it, the distance to the target was quickly determined and corrections were made to the sight. As a result, both destroyers were hit by Russian 102mm shells, and the V-99 hit a mine and ran aground.
    1. +3
      20 August 2025 22: 14
      Quote: dragon772
      The main difference from German destroyers

      The main difference is the 4x102 mm/60 Novik guns versus the 8,8 cm TbtsK L/45 on the German destroyers. The shell weight is 30 kg versus 10 kg for the Germans. After this battle, the Germans began to urgently rearm their destroyers with 105 mm guns. And of course, they shot better, the Germans simply did not hit a single target.
      1. +1
        21 August 2025 17: 59
        The German destroyers did not have optical rangefinders! They were only installed after this battle.
  18. 0
    20 August 2025 17: 56
    Quote: Adrey
    There are 3 of them, but in the foreground is still Lender's 76 mm paper.

    Get ahead!
  19. 0
    20 August 2025 17: 57
    Quote: Flying_Dutchman
    A little behind the anti-aircraft guns, on the superstructure)))

    "...Have you seen the sunrise in the mountains? Just like this, only green...lol"
  20. +1
    20 August 2025 17: 59
    Quote: Flying_Dutchman
    It's hard to compare: today there are different requirements - when the "noviki" were built, aviation was taking its first steps, so speed was a fundamental parameter for a destroyer. Now - everything is a little different: you can't run from an airplane or a missile, so 32 knots for a combat ship cause cries of delight...

    And the Noviki (it is customary to call them all this in a group) did not all run faster than 30 knots.
    1. 0
      21 August 2025 12: 59
      Yes, military construction always lags behind peacetime construction. I had the opportunity to compare the "dug" Mausers of 1898 with the "Sturmgewehrs" of 1944: both the metal and wooden parts of the former were preserved much better, despite the decades of difference...
      1. -1
        21 August 2025 18: 15
        Quote: Flying_Dutchman
        and the metal and wooden parts of the first ones were preserved much better, despite the decades of difference...

        Wood can be very different, as for metal, forgings are stored in the ground better than stampings...
  21. 0
    20 August 2025 18: 02
    Quote: D-east
    Why such arrogance that shines through in your comment?

    God forbid! What arrogance? A common reaction to a slapdash article with obvious disrespect for the reader.
    I was actually very surprised when I read the author's pseudonym. Compared to his other recent articles...
  22. +4
    20 August 2025 18: 07
    If we return to the subject of discussion, then personally I consider Novik and Co. to be the BEST domestic ships of the “iron” era.
    Particularly surprising is the absolutely incredible combination of small displacement, “armed to the teeth”, excellent seaworthiness with a low silhouette and excellent hull strength.
    Outstanding ships, most importantly, built on time, which is a veeeery rarity for domestic shipbuilding!
    1. +1
      20 August 2025 20: 23
      Quote: Grossvater
      "armed to the teeth"

      Initially torpedo armament STRONG prevailed over artillery

      Quote: Grossvater
      excellent body strength.

      The hull had to be reinforced in the area of the forecastle cut, otherwise the bow would start to break off.
  23. +2
    20 August 2025 19: 08
    Quote: avia12005
    Our ancestors knew how to build quickly and efficiently. And their cranes never fell on the decks of their ships.

    What are you talking about? Really? And Pavel and Andrey didn't build for almost ten years? Sorry, I forgot the exact dates, and I'm too lazy to look it up. And Vityaz didn't burn to the ground along with one of the workers?
    What kind of habit is this, to bark at anything? Forgive me, but I couldn't find another word from those allowed on VO.
    1. +4
      20 August 2025 20: 25
      Quote: Grossvater
      And Pavel and Andrey didn’t build it for almost ten years?

      Considering how many times the technical specifications changed during construction, it's surprising that they were completed at all... :)
  24. +3
    20 August 2025 19: 10
    Quote: dragon772
    It is no less interesting that on August 17, Novik single-handedly entered into battle with two of its German “clones” – V-99 and V-100 in the Gulf of Riga. And emerged victorious! The Russian 102-mm guns turned out to be better than the German 88-mm guns,

    The main difference from the German destroyers was that the Novik had an optical rangefinder on board. Thanks to it, the distance to the target was quickly determined and corrections were made to the sight. As a result, both destroyers were hit by Russian 102mm shells, and the V-99 hit a mine and ran aground.

    If I'm not mistaken, Novik had not only a rangefinder, but also a fire control system. Geisler, basically the same as on battleships.
  25. +2
    20 August 2025 19: 43
    During the tests, the ship exceeded the speed specified in the technical conditions, showing a maximum speed of 37,3 knots on the measured mile.
    This test alone would be enough to fill an entire article.
    The main machinery and armament were tested underway. The average speed of 36 knots was checked for a 6- or 14-hour run, with a supply of fuel, lubricants and a full supply of feed water. The ship had a full load (crew with baggage, ammunition, provisions, fresh water, etc.).
    The agreement then prescribed tests on a measured mile, the purpose of which was to determine the dependence of the ship's speed on the rotation frequency of the turbines within the range of 0,3-0,9 of the maximum. The number of runs at each given rotation frequency had to be at least three. At each run, the power developed on the propeller shafts was measured.
    On May 17, 1912, Novik left Reval for the measured mile near the island of Wulf (Aegna). Three runs were made at different speeds. Two runs with fully boosted mechanisms did not give the desired results. The maximum speed achieved was only 35,8 knots, and the power of the mechanisms did not exceed 39,5 thousand horsepower. The commission decided to stop the tests.
    It was decided to change some elements of the propellers and then proceed with further testing. New propellers arrived in May from Germany and were replaced in the dock in Kronstadt. On June 12, Novik left for Helsinki. During the passage, the hourly fuel consumption was determined at a speed of 21 knots (it amounted to 4,3 tons), as well as at a speed of 15 knots (2,0 tons). In all three runs on the measured mile in Revel, the ship again failed to reach a speed of 36 knots, despite the full forcing of the boilers. Analysis of the test results showed that their steam capacity was insufficient and the turbines could not develop the required rotation frequency to achieve the specified speed.
    In July, the Novik underwent a second replacement of propellers, which differed in pitch and size from those previously installed. However, on July 29, 1912, at the measured mile in Revel, the Novik's trials continued; the ship was still unable to develop an average speed of more than 35,85 knots with a main turbine power of 39,9 thousand hp and a propeller speed of 633 rpm.
    The commission came to the final conclusion that Novik with new propellers to achieve the specified speed of 36 knots should develop 650 rpm, for which the shaft power should be no less than 42 thousand hp. It became obvious that the Vulcan plant made a mistake in calculating the steam capacity of the boiler plant based on the results of the model tests in the pool - it could not develop such power. Then the Vulcan plant proposed to replace the boilers with new ones with a larger heating surface at its own expense. This was achieved by lengthening the water heating tubes by 325 mm, which increased the length of the small boiler (bow) by 213 mm, and the other five - by 294 mm. At the same time, the plant assumed the obligation to perform all work on the hull associated with this replacement.
    There is another version explaining the failure of the Novik's sea trials in the summer of 1912. During construction, the Putilov plant allowed the ship to be overloaded, as a result of which the Novik's displacement increased by approximately 100 tons compared to the displacement of 1260 tons indicated in the contract specification.
    During the repair of the Novik in 1926 at the Northern Shipyard, it was discovered that the painted marks of the recess were located approximately 300 mm higher than the marks punched on the stems.
    After replacing the boilers, the displacement of the Novik increased by another 36 tons. Thus, it should be considered that the destroyer Novik had a normal displacement of about 1400 tons and a draft of 3,3 m. Naturally, the power of the mechanisms, calculated based on the results of testing the model in the pool based on the displacement of 1260 tons, turned out to be insufficient to develop a speed of 36 knots.
    The work plan proposed by the Vulcan plant for the period from May 14 to August 15, 1913, included checking stability, docking and installing new propellers, dismantling the deck, dismantling and replacing boilers, reworking the foundations, testing the mechanisms and painting the underwater part of the ship.
    On August 27, 1913, Novik unmoored at the Swinemünde embankment and set out to sea. When setting out, the torpedo boat's displacement with full cargo, excluding ammunition, was 1437 tons, and its stem draft was 9 feet 6 inches. After 3 hours at full speed, given that the mechanisms were working smoothly and the average speed of the turbines exceeded the results obtained on August 21 at the measured mile, the commission considered it possible to terminate the inspection.
    It turned out that the destroyer Novik developed an average speed of 36,86 knots during this time, the maximum was 37,15 knots. The results were unprecedented, the average speed at full speed was 36,3 knots, oil consumption was 168 tons (28 tons/hour); the main turbines developed an average power of 41 hp, and the auxiliary mechanisms - 910 hp. Thus, the total power of all the ship's mechanisms was 3170 hp.

    P.S. I have no doubt that the author knows all this, but he had to "chop" the material so as not to overload the article. And it seemed to me not uninteresting to show the drama of the story. "Through thorns to the stars."

    Source: Yu.G. Stepanov I.F. Tsvetkov "Destroyer Novik".
  26. +2
    20 August 2025 20: 02
    An interesting story about the Novik is described by academician A.N. Krylov: "On the wave resistance of water and on the wake wave"

    In 1912, the torpedo boat Novik, commanded by Captain 2nd Rank D. N. Verderevsky, was passing at a speed of 20 knots at a distance of about 6 miles past a lighthouse located at the entrance to one of the skerries fairways, similar to the Grohar Tower located at the entrance to Helsingfors. A wooden pier was built on piles near this lighthouse, the platform of which rose above the water by 9 feet. There was a dead calm, a boat was lying upside down on the pier, and two boys were playing near it, one 10 years old, the other 6 years old. The elder noticed that a high wave was heading towards the pier across the sea and rushed to the shore; the younger remained on the shore. The wave rolled onto the pier, washed away the boat and everything that was on the pier, including the boy, who drowned. It goes without saying that none of this was visible from the Novik, and only upon arrival in Ganges was a telegram delivered to the commander about the accident that had occurred.

    An investigation was launched, and the Minister of the Navy instructed me to report on the matter.
    It turned out that in the open stretch along the Novik's path there was a short bank with a water depth of 35 feet. This depth is precisely "critical" for a speed of 20 knots; it was on this that a huge wave formed, which then ran further and caused trouble. It was truly "an unforeseen accident at sea."
  27. +2
    20 August 2025 21: 44
    Quote: Piramidon
    Quote: Grossvater
    Before you write, it would be a good idea to learn to read.

    It would have been possible to simply point out the mistake, without such moralizing phrases with the desire to humiliate the interlocutor and show one’s superiority.

    This isn't the first time!
    I don’t know about you, but the dominance of “writers”, meaning not readers, on VO has already gotten to me.
    There is literature available to anyone interested in the subject. Well, why not read it before sitting down to type. I do not reproach the author for not writing anything about the water treatment system on the Noviki, although it was primarily this that ensured the outstanding speed of the ships. This information in an easy-to-read form is really difficult to find. Although anyone who is interested can go to the Kamchatka Regional Library website and download Gavrilov. S. V. "Ship Power Plants. History of Development" and READ what efforts it took to ensure reliable operation of boilers with curved tubes in ship conditions (this is clearly visible in the photo provided by the author). By the way, who else but me noticed the non-circular shape of the water collectors of the second, small boiler in this photo?
    And this is not “superiority”, this is, forgive the old man, an ordinary boyish interest in technology.
  28. 0
    20 August 2025 22: 18
    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
    The hull had to be reinforced in the area of the forecastle cut, otherwise the bow would start to break off.

    Which type of "Noviks" are you talking about? Some Black Sea ones, excuse me, I can't remember which ones exactly, on the contrary, had their stern reinforced.
    1. 0
      20 August 2025 22: 42
      Quote: Grossvater
      Which particular variety of "Novikov" are you talking about?

      Baltic.
      If I remember correctly, there was even a whole article in "Shipbuilding"...
  29. 0
    20 August 2025 22: 21
    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
    Initially, torpedo armament was GREATLY superior to artillery

    Of course, since the ships were supposed to be used for a massive attack on a column of battleships.
    On the other hand, again, what type of destroyers are you writing about?
    1. 0
      20 August 2025 23: 08
      Quote: Grossvater
      On the other hand, again, what type of destroyers are you writing about?

      Initially, on everyone.
      The Black Sea "ten-pipe" ones were not touched, but on the "Ushakov" series, during construction, the aft TA was replaced with a 4".
      The Baltics also "lost" the aft TA "Orpheus" during modernization, the rest are in the process of completion (those that were completed).
  30. 0
    20 August 2025 22: 24
    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
    The hull had to be reinforced in the area of the forecastle cut, otherwise the bow would start to break off.

    However, during the Great Patriotic War, the Severomorsk Noviks endured the vagaries of the weather much better than the Sevens.
    1. +2
      20 August 2025 23: 09
      Quote: Grossvater
      However, during the Great Patriotic War, the Severomorsk Noviks endured the vagaries of the weather much better than the Sevens.

      The manganese steel of the "sevens" bodies saved weight, but was fragile: you have to pay for everything...
  31. 0
    20 August 2025 22: 51
    Quote: hohol95

    And not only "motors", but also light cruisers - "Muravyov-Amursky" and "Nevelskoy"...


    With these cruisers, everything is generally murky, since officially they were ordered as semi-training ships, to prepare engine crews for turbine destroyers, but at the same time, they were equipped with Melms-Pfenningen turbines, which were not used on any of our other ships, not even on the even more murky Riga freaks, the Gogland!!
    1. 0
      20 August 2025 23: 13
      Quote: deddem
      With these cruisers, everything is generally murky, since officially they were ordered as semi-training ships, to prepare engine crews for turbine destroyers.

      This was one of the tasks: the second was to replace Askold and Zhemchug in the Siberian Flotilla.
  32. 0
    20 August 2025 23: 19
    It's strange that "Kerch" is not mentioned in the article. By the way, there is a monument to him in Tuapse. And his story is much more interesting.
    When the Germans captured Crimea in the First World War, he sank the remaining Black Sea Fleet. So that it would not fall into the hands of the invaders. And it was he who broadcast "Shame on the soldiers heading to Sevastopol!"
    If it weren't for the Bolsheviks, we would have had at least another Port Arthur.
    1. +1
      21 August 2025 18: 04
      I didn't want to touch on this sad story. The photo of "Kerch" is present in the material, but the sinking of the Black Sea Fleet on Lenin's orders can hardly be considered a feat.
      1. -1
        21 August 2025 22: 54
        Do you think we should have left it to the Germans? Or are you for those who voluntarily surrendered to the invaders?
        Moreover, the order to sink was, in fact, given by the fleet commander. And Petrograd, in fact, approved it.
        1. +1
          22 August 2025 00: 32
          I am for not overthrowing legitimate governments. Then we don't have to sink the fleet, because Germans suddenly appeared in the Black Sea. And how did they end up there? The Tsar probably invited them, with the German Empress...
          1. -1
            22 August 2025 08: 18
            Oddly enough, it was the Tsar who declared war on Germany. Have you forgotten? The First World War.
            And in order not to overthrow the Tsar, it is necessary not to lose wars. For example, the Russo-Japanese. There we lost not only two squadrons, but also a lot of people, Port Arthur with the adjacent territory. And international prestige.
            So Kerch made a much greater contribution to history than the same Varyag!
            1. 0
              22 August 2025 11: 28
              The Bolsheviks managed to do the impossible - to lose in a war they had won, so "Kerch" is a symbol of shame, there is no need to mention it...
              1. 0
                22 August 2025 11: 34
                What, what? The Tsar lost the war. And the Bolsheviks stopped the destruction of the state.
                Citizen, it's a shame not to know history at your age!
  33. 0
    21 August 2025 07: 51
    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
    Quote: Grossvater
    On the other hand, again, what type of destroyers are you writing about?

    Initially, on everyone.
    The Black Sea "ten-pipe" ones were not touched, but on the "Ushakov" series, during construction, the aft TA was replaced with a 4".
    The Baltics also "lost" the aft TA "Orpheus" during modernization, the rest are in the process of completion (those that were completed).

    Thank you! It is worth rereading the sources. On the other hand, the very rearrangement of weapons only confirms the opinion about the extremely successful design of the ships. Consciously or not, but Russian designers more than a hundred years ago came close to the modern idea of ​​a modular combat vessel.
  34. 0
    21 August 2025 07: 53
    Quote: Macsen_Wledig
    Quote: Grossvater
    However, during the Great Patriotic War, the Severomorsk Noviks endured the vagaries of the weather much better than the Sevens.

    The manganese steel of the "sevens" bodies saved weight, but was fragile: you have to pay for everything...

    A break in construction has never been good for anyone. Plus an immoderate desire to reduce displacement, plus excessive optimism, plus an ideological burden.
    However, for inland seas the sevens were quite good.
  35. +1
    21 August 2025 21: 31
    Wow...the article is fire!!! Legendary Noviki...The author made me happy. Thank you good
  36. 0
    23 August 2025 15: 24
    Von Zwischen, not bad, but the last name and title are confusing...
  37. 0
    6 November 2025 16: 06
    Thank you, that's interesting. The only thing I find a bit lacking is the technological specifics of those times, such as the steel grades and quality, and the methods of joining parts and components. Granted, not all readers are engineers, but the experience of our ancestors is still interesting. Their ships (hulls) could withstand up to 100 years of use...