Military Review

Soviet education nourished monster

74
Soviet education nourished monsterAbout how we were taught in the USSR and what kind of education we have today - an interview with Peter Shchedrovitsky, a member of the board of the North-West Center for Strategic Research Foundation North-West.


The ghost of the Soviet educational system does not leave the country. Whatever happens in the field of education, we necessarily compare with what happened during the Soviet years: funding, programs, the level of teachers. What was the reality of education in the USSR? This, of course, is about 60 - 80's.

Petr SchedrovitskyA: The first thing we have to realize today is that the educational MMM was an extremely important aspect of the Soviet project.

I.e?

Soviet education was the real pyramid. Imagine an ordinary representative of the third generation of Soviet industrialization: his grandfather was a peasant, his father was a skilled worker, and he himself was an engineer. This is a classic structure. How does an ordinary family perceive what is happening in these conditions? Definitely like a social elevator. In 60 and 70, many already felt themselves to be representatives of the Soviet "middle class", and immense horizons of the scientific and technological revolution opened up before the next generation.

The number of engineers and graduates in the postwar period has been steadily increasing, universities are working on their production, and getting higher education for children becomes the main thing in every Soviet family. At this point, no one asks themselves what will happen next when 100% of high school graduates become engineers. Why I say that this is a pyramid. The fact is that such a model can only be viable under one condition: if the economy is simultaneously globalized in a Soviet way and these tens of millions of scientists and engineers living in the territory of the Soviet Union become "golden millions" for the countries of Asia, Africa, Latin America and Eastern Europe. For countries that are in 70 - 80-s enter the cycle of catching-up industrialization and take the socialist model of development as a role model. Then the model works.

Was there a perspective for this model, in your opinion?

In fact, the USSR and its education system could have only one development scenario: to become the leader structure of some kind of global world cooperation of countries. On such a scale, the most advanced part of the USSR population could specialize in “high” activities — scientific research, engineering and design work, high-tech services, and the education system — to maintain the quality of human capital. That is why it was so important during this period to create the CMEA and "help" developing countries in different parts of the world.

However, do not forget that this process occurred in conditions of constant and intensifying competition with another center of power that acted in a similar way - the United States. The competitor realized much faster that selling a lifestyle is more important than selling goods, that “liberalism” as an ideology of industrialization is a more popular product than “Marxism”. And that education, as a channel to future successes, is more profitable to sell to Indians and Chinese at home than to donate for free, as this was done by the USSR. The intellectual support of US leadership claims proved to be more effective than propaganda of "developed socialism", and with it the Soviet engineering solutions in space, aviation, atomic energy and automotive.

And then what?

And then, as we know, the competition of the two countries, which are identical in terms of claims to global leadership, ends in the defeat of one of them. History the loss of the USSR has not yet been comprehended by anyone and is not described, unfortunately. This is a matter of the future. The result is important: at that moment when the Union was in the position of a loser, all the systems supporting and supporting it were doomed. Including the education system.

Of course, such cataclysms do not occur simultaneously. Before our eyes, Soviet institutions have been dying for more than 25 years and will continue to die. It is important that the pyramid collapsed. She did not have anyone to train all those specialists she produced for the megaproject of globalization in the Soviet way. And the new government - no matter what - was forced in some form to cash out the problem. At first she says: "We do not need so many engineers." Then: "We do not need so many lawyers and economists."

Unbelievable lawyers and economists are the product of the first post-Soviet years. The so-called "managers" are the product of the 2000's. Our universities, designed for completely different scales and development prospects, in the 90-s under the guise of education began to sell a certain package of myths to people losing their jobs. Former teachers of scientific communism have been named marketing teachers, untrained psychologists have been made experts in cinema ...

This is insanity ...

Not insanity, and self-preservation system. Any system tends to survive. And since people live in the head with the old Soviet model of a social elevator, they traditionally see their children above themselves: "I am an engineer, and he must be a manager." Only it is not clear what they all will manage, these 20 - 30 million managers.

In 90-s, almost all universities created a huge number of branches in the regions, offering semi-unemployed people a modern "education": economic, legal, and managerial. This is air trade, in essence. The system began to preserve itself, parasitizing on residual social moods: "Our children should live better than us." And which way to live is better? Education. What kind of education? Ideologists of the rapid transition to the "capitalist model of development" say that lawyers and economists. And how to cook them? We have not done this before. Hence, social mimicry: the remaining teachers of scientific communism who are out of work, who are following the course of management and marketing, a sharp deterioration in the quality of education. As well as an ordinal increase in the number of universities and their branches, in fact - the sale of diplomas and consumer fraud.

And what could be done now?

Think. This problem situation includes at least two levels. First, can there be advanced education in a country that has lost global competition? Imagine that I am a simple person and I want to engage in the development of aviation. But I see that the planes on which Russian aviation flies are foreign. If some projects are even being launched in this area, then these are projects in niche markets: for example, military and transport aviation still maintain their positions.

Can there be a good education in a country where there is no good industry? It is necessary to clearly understand that education, in many respects, is the industry creating the image of the future. Prestige and social status in the field of education plays no less a role, and perhaps more, than its technological and substantive basis. Preparation, as the most important technological process in the field of education, is inseparable from work experience and student participation in real projects. Therefore, there can be no educational reform outside the formation of industrial policy and the definition of a country's place in global chains of the division of labor and cooperation.

And the second level of this problem?

And the second point: education is therefore “education”, because in order to form, it is necessary for a person to give a picture of the world, his image. The word "education" comes from the medieval lexicon of Christian pedagogy. And the picture of the world is what is called ontology in philosophy, that is, the idea of ​​how the world works.

In the USSR, this function — pictures of the world — was performed by Marxism. We are not discussing whether it is good or bad, but it was. It explained everything: the political system, and economic prospects, and the competition of world forces. There was historical materialism, dialectical materialism, and even "the chemical form of the motion of matter." It was a real ontology - a harmonious idea of ​​how the world works. She was ruined. A new picture of the world did not work out.

After all, the picture of the world is, among other things, the basis of values. What can be tools without values? What are we learning now? Where is the answer to the question about the nature of certain phenomena, about cause-effect relationships that permeate the world around us? Instead, it is a collection of random data, pulled from popular literature mixed with horoscopes. What kind of education can be in these conditions? Education is the path to the image of something. We are in a situation of "ideological", as they say now, but not really an ideological, but an ontological vacuum.
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  1. Fox
    Fox April 18 2013 06: 41 New
    30
    an attempt to tie realities to fantasies ... in some cases, it is possible, but nationwide, complete nonsense. the state just does not need engineers, but it needs a dumb and the same plankton for offices. Education is imprisoned for these tasks, because thinking is always dangerous!
    1. Tersky
      Tersky April 18 2013 07: 34 New
      23
      Quote: Fox
      under these tasks education is imprisoned, for the thinker is always dangerous!

      Posted by Zoya Miloslavskaya, work experience:
      - 2007 - Moscow Information Radio SITI.FM, presenter of the broadcast.
      - 2004 - 2006 - NTV, the program "Emergency", "PE. Weekly review", correspondent.
      - 2004 - NTV, host of the program "Izbirkom.ru", correspondent, editor; project "Expo 2005", documentaries, screenwriter.
      - 2003 - TV channel "Russia", host of the programs "Good morning, Russia!", "Vesti-Moscow".
      - 2003 - The TV channel "Third Channel", the program "Question Price", the author-presenter of the heading "News in Money". Information service of the Mayak radio station, editor-presenter.
      - 2001-2003 - VKT Television Company, host of the City News program and press review.
      -2000-2001 - Channel "Ugra" Khanty-Mansi Autonomous Okrug, the leading economic program "Capital"; correspondent, editor.
      - 2000 - TVC, the morning channel "Mood", the host of the column "In the Press Course".
      -1999 - 2000 - TV-6, Day-to-Day information and entertainment channel, author-presenter of the News Scale column and press review.
      -1997-1999 - RTR, DEPI "Vesti", editor, correspondent. Department of Special Projects, DEPI "Vesti", the documentary series "This is Moscow": author of the films "Nursing Home", "Funeral in Moscow", "Sklifosovsky Institute."
      -1996 - Radio station "Echo of Moscow", correspondent.
      -1994-1996 - Publishing House Kommersant, Kommersant Daily, correspondent.
      "Rich" experience, only work in "Echo of Moscow" and on NTV what are .... Zoya Miloslavskaya
      creative director
      Production Center "AlfaMedia"
      1. baltika-18
        baltika-18 April 18 2013 09: 38 New
        16
        Quote: Tersky
        Posted by Zoya Miloslavskaya, work experience:

        The interlocutor of Zoya Petya Shchedrovitsky, it must be said, is a rare-wise one.In the 90s, he developed schemes for corporating and reorganizing gold and diamond mining enterprises, worked in PR companies of various personalities, worked in Rosatom, was an adviser to the Minister of Education, was awarded the Order For Merit to the Fatherland. "
        I am offended and bitter for the country, when such people take .... leadership positions.
      2. luka095
        luka095 April 18 2013 15: 37 New
        +3
        And the article is also constructed as they say in Kommersant. And right away the thesis about the MMM pyramid. It is well remembered and, as always, peremptorily ...
        1. Pharao7766
          Pharao7766 April 19 2013 09: 48 New
          +1
          Having reached MMM, he stopped reading the lying vomit that this individual squeezed out with its kosher interlocutor.
      3. Ghenxnumx
        Ghenxnumx April 19 2013 00: 57 New
        0
        Quote: Tersky
        "Rich" experience, only work in "Echo of Moscow" and on NTV what are .... Zoya Miloslavskaya
        creative director

        Of course, this her work experience suggests that it is necessary as in USE - 500 engineers a year are enough for the eyes. fool . It’s time, and the ear and the businessman close the fuck ...
    2. ziqzaq
      ziqzaq April 18 2013 12: 26 New
      +6
      Quote: Fox
      the state just doesn’t need engineers, but it needs a dumb and the same plankton for offices

      The most valuable resource for the state is the education of its people.
      The most valuable resource for man, this time .......
    3. Alexander
      Alexander April 18 2013 14: 19 New
      -1
      The Cheops pyramid has been standing for thousands of years, and nothing happened to her.
    4. atalef
      atalef April 18 2013 18: 48 New
      -3
      Quote: Fox
      .Just the state does not need engineers, but it needs a dumb and the same plankton for offices.
      Universities do not need them (high-quality), otherwise they would not have stamped them without an account. Higher education in Russia (especially technic) simply degraded. There are several universities with a miserable semblance of former power. But MSU and Voenmekh (St. Petersburg) for some reason managed to open branches in Dubai and Switzerland. Who first guess why laughing
      1. aksakal
        aksakal April 18 2013 21: 13 New
        +4
        Quote: atalef
        Universities do not need them (high-quality), otherwise they would not have stamped them without an account. Higher education in Russia (especially technic) simply degraded. There are several universities with a miserable semblance of former power. But MSU and Voenmekh (St. Petersburg) for some reason managed to open branches in Dubai and Switzerland. Who first guess why

        - Dear, I lived in the USSR and now live in a neighboring state, often being in Russia on business trips, that is, I live closer to you to Russia and am aware of all the events in Russia, and even so I can’t say that
        Quote: atalef
        Higher education in Russia (especially technic) simply degraded. There are several universities left with a miserable semblance of former power

        You, being over three seas and two straits, categorically, in the tone of expression of truth in the last resort, claim about Russian education as disappeared. What is the aim of pursuing, by pouring mud on Russian higher education, convincing local members of the forum, mainly Russians, that "everything in Russia sucks, how you live there is incomprehensible"? I guess-hate Russia for the fact that everything in it sucks, and especially its rulers! You present it a bit softer and finer to the forum users than the professor did and does, but the essence does not change from this. I advise you to think well seven times before posting such categorical statements, then think again and DO NOT POST! For let the Russians themselves give an assessment of their education system. I, a Kazakhstani, have no right to do this, and I think that it is NOT YOU to give such assessments. Give grades to Israeli universities, not Russian, especially in such a tone.
        Do not make me continue to treat you like a professor, I hope that you understood correctly and correctly evaluated my post not as an attack on you personally, but as a remark. What a comment - re-read the post carefully. If you do not agree - let me know why.
        1. dddym
          dddym April 18 2013 21: 46 New
          0
          criticizing is helpful. Peremptory tone - yes worthless to say so. However, let's digress from the struggle of ideologies. Really - 10% of students know Russian literature. In our class, only the complete one didn’t know that there was such a writer, Gogol, when I advised him to read the sixth grader modern - she raised her eyebrows in surprise and asked: “And who is this?” My students were surprised to find that they can compose poetry, although I do not remember such a class in our school, so that at least someone at least once would not write an epigram, even if it’s primitive. I am not a teacher of literature, I teach acting. In modern education, everyone has the phrase “successful person” on their lips, and no one knows what this means. Sorry, first of all, education should cultivate a craving for knowledge, literacy and the ability to live in society. And the current education is stamping "successful people." Moreover, the excessive democratization of education gives a lot of minuses. For example, the choice of a teacher by voting means - the more a clown, the better the teacher. And they go to classes to have fun. While doing exercises and sketches, everything is fine, but as soon as you sit down for a reading, it immediately becomes boring. No reading, writing skills. What is proud of the current system?
          1. aksakal
            aksakal April 18 2013 23: 17 New
            +2
            Quote: dddym
            criticizing is helpful. Peremptory tone - yes worthless to say so

            - Atalef - not criticism! Criticism involves specifying specific flaws, the flaws are based on factual materials. After specifying specific flaws based on factual materials, ways of correction are indicated.
            Let's take the facts:
            Quote: atalef
            Higher education in Russia (especially technic) simply degraded
            - such a total degradation implies Russia's inability to create new types of aircraft. But PAK FA is being created, MS-21 is being created. Completely degraded? Who then creates it? Shipunov recently boasted that he managed to rejuvenate the team of designers in Kolomenskoye and reduce it to an average age of 41 years. Is it at the expense of foreigners? Or are the people of Kolomna already taking young people without higher education? Down to that? "Dry" in MAI grazes - what does it graze there? It completely degraded !!!!! Why aren't Sukhoi agents breaking into Cornell Aviation? After all, MAI has degraded!
            We saw a photo of the assembly of the SU-34, there are a lot of young people there - an employee of the Novosibirsk software says that they are all with higher education, because uneducated people are unable to assemble the most complicated design of a combat aircraft. Has it so degraded Russian technical education?
            I judge the facts and do not say that Russian higher education has become better and worse. It rather worsened, because the dashing 90s could not but worsen the entire social sphere, including the educational one. But there can be no talk of complete degradation.
    5. starshina78
      starshina78 April 18 2013 20: 35 New
      +7
      At first I did not want to comment on this libel, but then changed my mind. answering questions, he hates the USSR to the core, and everything that was created in the USSR. The whole Soviet system of education was recognized as the best, but you see the "pyramid" in it. I wonder where he saw 100 percent admission to universities. Now yes . then no. almost half (if not more) graduated from the 8th grade and went to either a vocational school or a technical school, and only a third went to the tenth in the hope of entering a university. The collapse was waiting for many (then it was more difficult to enter a university than now, it was necessary to prove your knowledge of the subject, not like now, by checking the box and guessing at the exam, get a certificate, apply to five universities, and go somewhere, and only September 1 to find out who and why the university is preparing). Then we went to the university, having prepared ourselves at the end of the university to serve in that particular field in which I studied, defended my diploma, completed practical training, and was ready to go according to the distribution to wherever the homeland would send. And people rode, then stayed, started families, and their children followed in the footsteps of their parents. This person does not blame the Soviet system for the effectiveness and incorrect presentation of knowledge, but he does not even know that the schools did not teach the theory of Marxism - Leninism, Marxist political science. On these subjects, there were lectures at universities, and in my opinion (I don’t remember exactly) in the second year, and everyone immediately forgot what and how they taught there (as well as the sopromat, to whom he came in handy after college life - to those who left to scientists or to the designer). I would like to ask the answer: what is the education system better now? What, because after graduation the graduate cannot show America on the map, or because some people don’t even know the start date of the Second World War, and they speak and write with such literacy that the hair stands on end. The easiest way is to slander something, than to recognize the greatness and significance of what is being poured with mud, than to improve the old and create the best product on its basis.
      1. aksakal
        aksakal April 18 2013 22: 51 New
        +2
        Quote: starshina78
        I wonder where he saw 100 percent admission to universities. Now yes . then no. almost half (if not more) graduated from the 8th grade and went to either a vocational school or a technical school, and only a third went to the tenth in the hope of entering a university. The collapse was waiting for many (then it was more difficult to enter a university than now, it was necessary to prove your knowledge of the subject, not like now, by checking the box and guessing at the exam, get a certificate, apply to five universities, and go somewhere, and only September 1 to find out who and why the university is preparing).
        - Perhaps the author is partially right that the “pyramidization” of higher education took place, but the author is definitely not right, claiming that this was characteristic only of Soviet education. The population always massively sought to obtain higher education for their offspring, and this was even in tsarist Russia. Recall that, having caught this "pyramidization", the tsarist government issued a decree restricting the attainment of higher education to "Cook children." How it ended literally in two or three decades - without comment. He who does not remember his story is forced to repeat it twice.
        The USSR was forced to build up a corps of people with higher education, for it understood that it was educated people, specialists, that were the key factor in winning the confrontation with the West. That is why students were paid a scholarship, while all over the world, unfortunately, in Kazakhstan too, you need to pay for higher education, and pay quite a lot of money - already by the tenth-second thousand cu for the year of study. This will be my headache in a few years, the children are in middle and high school. And already on this basis of this fact I hate liberals fiercely, hate their economic platform of eliminating the state from the educational system and am ready to bite their teeth and tear my nails - it will happen, I will do it, keep in mind that, liberals! am Okay, distracted. So, the USSR did it right, another thing is that the education of people did not save them from being infected by consumerism. Swedish wall, Finnish boots, German sneakers ... Oh, West! We want to live like them!
        But this process cannot be stopped! Whatever the author of the Sabbath writes, no matter how he shouts about the pyramids and the restriction of higher education, this is an objective process, according to Marx it is the development of productive forces. The productive forces will sooner or later come into conflict with production relations. Here is the Sabbath - just in this thread. Outdated production relations need primitive workers to bluntly tighten the screws on the conveyors, and the new productive forces all go to the university together and after graduation do not want to get behind the conveyor. It is hard to say how this conflict between obsolete production relations and new productive forces will end.
  2. svp67
    svp67 April 18 2013 06: 41 New
    +9
    Soviet education was a real pyramid. At this moment, no one asks himself what will happen next when 100% of school graduates become engineers.


    I do not quite agree with this thesis. This is what distinguishes the USSR from the current Russian Federation. By "investing" in the education of people, the state tried to educate a "new" person. I think no one will argue that a person who has not "bought" higher education is in many ways different from the same person without it ... And this is precisely the trouble state that it was not able to take full advantage of the huge potential that it itself has created. Sad crying
    1. smel
      smel April 18 2013 07: 00 New
      10
      I do not quite agree with this thesis
      But I don’t agree with many thoughts of this gentleman. After the destruction of the USSR by the traitorous minority, in our country, not only education, but also the country's industrial base was unclaimed. And the political component of society. And science. And the one-sidedness of agriculture was manifested. And the culture was in the pen. And what? Fold arms and drown? It’s necessary to swim. Keeping achievements in everything, strive to reform all spheres of state interests under the new realities. And thank God that this is happening, albeit not as fast as we would like, with errors, but still happening. It is only a pity that they did not give up the treacherous evil under the people's righteous and fair trial, but nothing, history will put everything in its place. But the education that Mr. Shchedrovitsky speaks of so incompetently was really brought to its knees. And I am very sorry that Dimon does not see and does not understand this, who yesterday once again showed his political shortsightedness (oh ???, or maybe Zionist malicious intent), speaking in our Duma and defending the minister worthless. After all, the literate enemies of our country once said that in order to destroy the country and people, it is enough to destroy the memory of one generation. That is the current education this goal is achieved
    2. DimychDV
      DimychDV April 18 2013 09: 06 New
      +9
      A friend fooled in the 80s - he says we had men among the sailors who were able to manually disassemble, calculate and rewind the electric motor in a flight. And today, on the shore, the problem is to find a welder of at least 3 categories to take him to the sea. And before that, it was most often not only a classy welder, but also a turner of good rank.
      1. Iraclius
        Iraclius April 18 2013 10: 43 New
        +6
        Heh. What are you talking about? In the middle of the month I was riding the Odessa-Ufa steam locomotive, and two Odessa residents were traveling with me in a compartment with my fellow travelers. The eldest is 65 years old, the second is about 40. We drove from the shipyard to Samara. Because in Samara there are no qualified diesel engineers - specialists in marine diesel engines. belay I dont know. Probably the end of the world is near.

        PS The soulful guys got caught, and the Odessa accent reminded me of a trip to the sea with my parents in my youth. The senior 30 has years of experience in shipyards, all his life to the elbow in oil. Diesel knows how to "Our Father." Pension for our money - about 3 thousand rubles P ... c. recourse
        1. Normal
          Normal April 18 2013 11: 04 New
          +5
          Quote: Iraclius
          . Mental souls got caught,

          Yes, the glory of Odessa as the city of thieves (Odessa-mother) and comedians completely overshadowed the glory of Odessa as a city - a seaport and, accordingly, a city - a hard worker. I knew one locksmith from Odessa; brightest head and golden hands
          1. Ascetic
            Ascetic April 18 2013 12: 28 New
            +3
            Quote: Normal
            I knew one locksmith from Odessa; brightest head and golden hands

            Greetings, Vladimir!
            I have a friend, also an assistant professor, and I will draw a chervonets in half an hour - you cannot distinguish from the present smile (Oblique, "Gentlemen of Fortune")
            1. Normal
              Normal April 18 2013 14: 15 New
              +4
              Greetings, Stanislav!
              Quote: Ascetic
              I have a friend, also an assistant professor, and a dime in half an hour ...

              Well, it’s all by itself laughing But seriously, then we followed that Odessa citizen with notepads on the heels and wrote down what he was doing and how (not banknotes of course).
              Then, behind our backs, process engineers grazed and recorded behind us. So there was "Assembly Technology"
              1. Fox
                Fox April 18 2013 15: 02 New
                +2
                Quote: Normal
                Then, behind our backs, process engineers grazed and recorded behind us.

                how familiar it is ... worthless technologists.
                1. Iraclius
                  Iraclius April 18 2013 17: 52 New
                  +3
                  I see nothing wrong with this. After graduating from college (and we were taught hard there), I was not shy about contacting the foreman of my company, a veteran of the war in Afghanistan, Tajikistan and the first Chechen, for practical questions. Thanks to him and a deep bow. Vladimir Nikolaevich was a rare breed honest and decent man. Soldiers on him prayed to God. I hate frantic cries that all ensigns are all thieves and crooks.
                  1. Mikhail3
                    Mikhail3 April 18 2013 22: 01 New
                    +1
                    Mihai Volontir showed something good to people that there is a real Russian ensign. Many of their colleagues recognized ...
                  2. Ghenxnumx
                    Ghenxnumx April 19 2013 15: 25 New
                    0
                    Quote: Iraclius
                    I did not hesitate to turn for practical questions to the foreman of my company - a veteran of the war in Afghanistan, Tajikistan and the first Chechen one. Thanks to him and a deep bow. Vladimir Nikolaevich was a rare breed honest and decent man. Soldiers on him prayed to God. I hate rabid cries that all ensigns are thieves and crooks.

                    I agree to all 100%. in rdn warrant officers: signalmen, mechvody and Nach. TSO - golden hands, knew and were able to much, with pleasure explained that it is not clear, but here the foreman and the Beginner. the hzvzvoda, unfortunately, have always been looking for the possibility of something, but where to grab more
      2. atalef
        atalef April 18 2013 18: 51 New
        0
        Quote: DimychDV
        among the sailors we had men capable of manually disassembling, calculating and rewinding manually the electric motor in the flight.

        Believe me as a little knowledgeable person, not at all an achievement. Almost like an 2 finger on aswalt. Adjusting the carburetor is much more difficult.
  3. fenix57
    fenix57 April 18 2013 06: 42 New
    +7
    Nonsense ... utterly obscure. " Soviet education was a real pyramid"- that is, all the achievements of the USSR are an illusion. request
    "Imagine an ordinary representative of the third generation of Soviet industrialization: his grandfather was a peasant, his father was a skilled worker, and he himself was an engineer. "- and that this is bad, it should be so. CHILDREN SHOULD BE SMARTER AND HEREER OF THEIR PARENTS. hi
    1. Kolya
      Kolya April 18 2013 09: 07 New
      +3
      Doctors of science during the time of Stalin were comprehensively educated people who literally knew everything. Over the past 20-30 years, doctors of science have become more and more just well-trained executors of instructions, with a few exceptions of course.
      1. atalef
        atalef April 18 2013 18: 56 New
        0
        Quote: Kohl
        Doctors of science during the time of Stalin were comprehensively educated people who literally knew everything

        did you live during the time of Stalin and yourself could appreciate the knowledge of these doctors? Or again out of habit of the OBS, that would pick up the pros laughing
        It is impossible to know everything a priori, even in one area of ​​specialization, even if it is a Stalinist doctor.
        By the way, the name of academician Lysenko does not say anything to you.
        One of the Stalinist luminaries, thanks to him and others like him in the genetics and cybernetics of the USSR, lagged behind for 20 years, or rather forever.
        1. dddym
          dddym April 18 2013 20: 44 New
          -1
          Stalin? :))
          Of the most famous achievements of Lysenko in agricultural technology, which gave a significant increase in yield, we can name: vernalization of grain; wide-row sowing of millet; chasing cotton; stubble wheat crops; planting the tops of potato tubers.
          Lysenko’s methods are now widely used and no one wants them. And not only with us :))).
          1. atalef
            atalef April 18 2013 23: 50 New
            0
            Quote: dddym
            Lysenko’s methods are now widely used.

            Only without demagogy, pliz. The conversation is not about What he was supposed to do as a scientist, but about the company of persecution of Vavilov and other geneticists, how many innocent scientists died in his camps through his fault.
            1. dddym
              dddym April 19 2013 08: 07 New
              -1
              http://www.lisenko-trofim.ru/
              By the way, the name of academician Lysenko does not say anything to you.
              One of the Stalinist luminaries, thanks to him and others like him in the genetics and cybernetics of the USSR, lagged behind for 20 years, or rather forever.

              Then apologize for this statement. It is either incorrectly composed, or you wrote one meaning the other.
              1. dddym
                dddym April 25 2013 11: 03 New
                0
                Instead of an apology minus. Then there is no explanation for your logic at all - you just decided to blurt out, as usual without even going into the essence. For example, tell people about Eugenics ...
        2. Avenger711
          Avenger711 April 20 2013 13: 22 New
          0
          Myth, albeit tenacious. And specifically computers were behind when they started copying IBM machines, but not in the 50s, when we were ahead of Europe.
  4. CCA
    CCA April 18 2013 07: 00 New
    +5
    The author Zoya Miloslavskaya is somewhat mistaken ... Commercialization and commodity-money relations in education are the main factor that has reduced its quality ... Grades, term papers, diplomas began to be sold and bought without regard to knowledge. And for 15-20 years, it generally fell into flux ... stop
  5. Kubatai
    Kubatai April 18 2013 07: 01 New
    +4
    Well, let's say we do not need citizens with higher education in previous amounts (well, so many specialists are not needed in the economy), although there are technical specialists. according to the leadership of the country is sorely lacking! (i.e. all the same, at least technical universities are needed). Attention questions - what and secondary education destroy to the ground? do not need educated at all? Which Christian gymnasiums have bred everywhere? can we immediately return the statement that the sun is around the earth and blow up our own spaceports?
    1. does it
      does it April 18 2013 14: 21 New
      +2
      Quote: Kubatai
      Which Christian gymnasiums have bred everywhere? can we immediately return the statement that the sun is around the earth and blow up our own spaceports?

      that it would be easier to manage the "cattle", and milk out to the last drop <plankton>.
  6. irka_65. irina
    irka_65. irina April 18 2013 07: 15 New
    +6
    Thanks to this "pyramid", current science is still afloat. The scientific developments of the USSR are now successfully used.
  7. AKOL
    AKOL April 18 2013 07: 21 New
    11
    Yeah, do not pour the aphthar anymore !!! The pyramid, as well as the MMM is just a storehouse of wisdom, how could we not steal it, and what does the EDUCATION SYSTEM have to do with it.
    There was just a system in Soez, a system that included all aspects and elements of education, from preschool to higher education. And to get working specialties was by no means considered shameful, which, incidentally, was financially stimulated. In short, complete nonsense.
  8. fenix57
    fenix57 April 18 2013 07: 36 New
    +3
    Quote: fenix57
    “Imagine an ordinary representative of the third generation of Soviet industrialization: his grandfather was a peasant, his father was a skilled worker, and he himself was an engineer.” - and that’s bad, that’s how it should be. CHILDREN SHOULD BE SMARTER, OF THEIR PARENTS.

    I would like to add: EDUCATION OF ITS PARENTS. hi
  9. individual
    individual April 18 2013 07: 36 New
    +8
    Since the Soviet Union collapsed-all collapsed. Mistakenly believing that now comes the happy "tomorrow". Young people sought to receive a humanitarian, economic and legal education. The education system itself collapsed, technical disciplines were promoted as not needed by the new system. The man of labor has lost value. The funding of vocational schools ceased and they received what they received. There is no reserve of pilots, welders, turners, electricians, skilled performers of mountains / households in the country. The mentality of a lawyer, an economist instilled in graduates of universities does not allow to occupy a niche of the worker. The country is forced to attract migrant workers from Central Asia. What is fraught with ethnic conflicts on racial and religious grounds. This is how the influence of bias in education looks on the state of the nation, its foreign and domestic policies.
  10. lewerlin53rus
    lewerlin53rus April 18 2013 07: 40 New
    +9
    A skilled worker working on high-tech equipment and production needs knowledge that is not inferior to engineering. If the author of the article complains that, supposedly, there was nowhere to put engineers, then where to put that army of economists, managers, lawyers, which has been done by hundreds of newly minted universities and colleges. But skilled workers are categorically not enough, as the system of special and secondary professional is very much undermined.
    1. SlavaS
      SlavaS April 18 2013 07: 53 New
      +4
      It’s not even that there’s nowhere to put managers, but that old-school people have been trained to work with quality and responsibility, and current managers, with purchased diplomas, dream only of a great s / n lying in bed before lunch or at the best case sitting on the pope all his working day.
    2. Kaa
      Kaa April 18 2013 09: 26 New
      +6
      Quote: lewerlin53rus
      But skilled workers are categorically lacking, as the system of special and secondary vocational training is very much undermined
      In the 90s, the Naglosakson system of higher education was imposed on us - more specialists with ANY higher education. It looks like a dozen of the "most educated" countries:
      1.Canada
      Share of population with higher education: 51% Average annual growth rate (2000-2010): 2,4%
      GDP per capita: $ 39
      2. Israel
      Percentage of population with higher education: 46% Average annual growth rate (2000-2010): Unknown GDP per capita: $ 26
      3 Japan
      Share of population with higher education: 45% Average annual growth rate (2000-2010): 2,9%
      GDP per capita: $ 33
      4. United States
      Share of population with higher education: 42% Average annual growth rate (2000-2010): 1,3%
      GDP per capita: $ 46
      5 New Zealand
      Share of population with higher education: 41% Average annual growth rate (2000-2010): 3,5%
      GDP per capita: $ 29
      6. South Korea
      Share of population with higher education: 40% Average annual growth rate (2000-2010): 5,2%
      GDP per capita: $ 28
      7. United Kingdom
      Percentage of population with higher education: 38% Average annual growth rate: 4,0%
      GDP per capita: $ 35
      8 Finland
      Share of population with higher education: 38% Average annual growth rate (2000-2010): 1,8%
      GDP per capita: $ 36
      9 Australia
      Share of population with higher education: 38% Average annual growth rate (2000-2010): 3,2%
      GDP per capita: $ 40
      10 Ireland
      Share of population with higher education: 37% Average annual growth rate (2000-2010): 7,3%
      GDP per capita: $ 40 http://www.rate478.com.ua/issledovanija-rate1/1/
      But I don’t see Germany, France, China here -countries producing products rather than services One of the possible options is to restore the system of technical colleges at factories where mid-level and top-level specialists trained for specific tasks will be trained.
      1. Avenger711
        Avenger711 April 20 2013 13: 25 New
        0
        In China, hundreds of millions of peasants live in deaf villages and do not produce anything for export. It’s just that even if people with a higher education in China are only 20%, then in absolute numbers they are fucked up, while the level of development of science in China remains low, since a million copyists will not create a scientific school.
  11. the polar
    the polar April 18 2013 07: 42 New
    +6
    The author is another drummer from the "fifth column"
    1. kaprall
      kaprall April 18 2013 17: 25 New
      +1
      What are you talking about, uncle? And the fact that the education system has become nonexistent, then in this we must ask those who steers, and not hit our heels on the chest, that we are the very best. You’re dreaming of a column, because it's just a friend or foe.
  12. kind
    kind April 18 2013 07: 43 New
    +5
    The article clearly smacks of the aspirations of overseas "friends." The USSR had the best education, even in Great Britain we borrow our pedagogical experience of the 60-80s. Look at what's happening in universities now. If earlier specialists were trained in certain areas, now they are taught some kind of asexual bachelors who teach a little of everything, but in general do not know anything. In addition, Westerners constantly give grants to our students, and according to the results of their distribution, they invite the best to themselves. In this way, at the expense of our budget, the scientific personnel of Europe and America are replenished.
  13. Landwarrior
    Landwarrior April 18 2013 08: 38 New
    +6
    Oh nonsense, oh nonsense no ... Well, never would have been 100% of engineers. Because, I'm sorry, someone is given, someone is not hi Yes, and humanitarian specialties, too, no one has canceled wink
    Further, there was a system of educational institutions at factories, when a person after graduation knew exactly which workshop and which machine, etc. he will come, And people went to such ultrasound consciously. have you heard of the "working dynasties"? That's the same wink
    Further, when there was a shortage of workers, they began to create new techies and vocational schools ...
    It is, for starters hi
  14. Iraclius
    Iraclius April 18 2013 08: 42 New
    +2
    offering semi-unemployed people fashionable “education”: economic, legal, managerial. This is air trading

    Thanks for these golden words! Article plus. I am pleased to read a few quotes to students.
    I did not see any overseas propaganda in the article. I saw an extremely impartial statement of facts. And the main fact is that today's higher education is this primitive pump for pumping money, which was created in the 90-s. It is true about the teaching staff - I personally know the people who led scientific communism and the history of the CPSU, and now successfully teach microeconomics and FDK. At the same time, all teachers know that 90% of graduates in the specialty will not work. Students are also aware of this. A kind of cat and mouse game. And the most scandalous thing is that now the services of a skilled worker exceed two to three times the work of a qualified engineer. I already said once that my wife earns money at a defense enterprise (design engineer of the 1 category, 15 years of experience) 10 thousand rubles At the same factory, workers' salaries are around 30 tr.
    We draw conclusions about who and why are taught in our country.
  15. rodevaan
    rodevaan April 18 2013 08: 43 New
    +8
    Bullshit! Custom crap.
    All this modernized blah blah blah fools seized power, pretending to be super-smart stars, and those who are still in the government licking the back of the Westerners and still can not sober up from this corrupting influence!
    Soviet education was the BEST on the planet! It is recognized by all, without exception, even Western enemies.
    The Soviet education system trained the world's best scientific personnel, engineers, electronic engineers, nuclear engineers, medical workers, teachers - it was the elite of the society, which trained a highly educated and developed society, which was an order of magnitude higher than the Western cattle, who only fucked and ate Coca-Cola popcorn . It was a shame for a Soviet school student not to know where America is, in what year the Great Patriotic War began. Ignorance was ridiculed by all of society. How can one compare Soviet education, which gave young people comprehensive and diverse knowledge about the world in which they live, with Western mandalas, confusing Siberia with Africa, and the black regions of Brooklyn with the Roman Empire ...
    I received Soviet education and am proud of it because it was real training, difficult and versatile, which made both me and the vast majority of my compatriots quite erudite and competent people, and not a faceless gray herd, seeing nothing further than its own TV with moronic squabble western-type talk shows like DOM-2.
    The USSR raised itself from scratch. And education as well. What is only one campaign to combat universal illiteracy! After the civil war, the competent and advanced elite of society massively left the country, as they fought for the whites. And our education was born almost from scratch. And despite this, it has become the best in the world. Of course, education should be reformed and should step forward, keeping pace with the times, you can’t sit at the level of the 70-80s. But for this it is necessary not to destroy everything that was done during the USSR in this regard (and a lot of work was done).
    It is necessary to reform YOUR education in accordance with our mentality, our needs, our consciousness, our own experience and vast knowledge and best practices in this regard. And to take from the West only that little that really applies to us and is useful for OUR, above all, society.
    Only in this way will we be the first and inaccessible in this area, since the Russian people are incredibly strong and talented, and if these natural abilities are given the same impetus that was given during the Soviet Union, the rest will be far in the ass and always trail in the tail.

    Even Hitler said that to finally conquer any nation is possible only when this nation is deprived of education and turns into an obedient dull gray herd. What we see in the west.
    1. Iraclius
      Iraclius April 18 2013 09: 30 New
      +1
      Comrades, where did you see in the article at least one bad word about the Soviet education system? Everyone has long known that she was the best in the world. But the USSR has long been gone. There is no need for so many people with higher education. It is as if you live on another planet and everything in Moscow. Take a look around! The factories are closed - in my city 2 works from about a dozen and a half (!!!), it’s barely breathing, Central Asian comrades work at the construction sites ... Those factories that have managed to not know the modernization of production - very few people serve modern CNC machines. .. Where to put all this armada of specialists with VO ??? Do you think that rumors about paid secondary education will remain rumors? You are mistaken.
      The authorities are now interested in what to do with people in the near future. The production sphere is saturated with specialists, the service sector is also not infinite ... We draw conclusions.
      1. baltika-18
        baltika-18 April 18 2013 10: 24 New
        0
        Quote: Iraclius
        Comrades, where did you see in the article at least one bad word about the Soviet education system?

        Andrei, and Petya Shchedrovitsky adviser to the Minister of Education. He also had a hand in what is happening now. It’s a pity that it’s not the 37th year ......
        1. Iraclius
          Iraclius April 18 2013 10: 35 New
          +1
          Honestly, I don’t know at all what to do with our leadership in the field of education. I can’t imagine at all. No way. If the commercial component is removed, then 99% of universities will stupidly bend, cease to exist. The state cannot draw a similar number of universities, and it does not need this army of “budget” specialists. If you remove (change, rejuvenate, dilute - as you like) the leadership of universities, then there will be no one to lead, because there is no succession of personnel for a long time. Probably a hint of the 37 year is the Ultima ratio regis. request
          1. baltika-18
            baltika-18 April 18 2013 10: 55 New
            0
            Quote: Iraclius
            If the commercial component is removed, then 99% of universities will stupidly bend, cease to exist.

            It is necessary to change the system. To carry out large-scale nationalization of the raw materials industry, metallurgy, petrochemistry, large chemistry, mechanical engineering, energy and transport. At the same time, in agriculture, begin construction of large agro-industrial complexes with a large share of mechanization and automation.
            To close commercial universities, leave state ones, admit them in accordance with the order of long-term planning. To revive what we lost, leaving 20-30% of the economy sector to private initiative, fully support private initiative in the production sphere. I can write a lot, even describe my vision of modern / x and the scheme of formation of the internal cost of production, which allows not an increase but a decrease in the price. The system we have is an illusion, a lie if you want.
            It is necessary to change the system, without this end, a dead end and collapse.
            1. Iraclius
              Iraclius April 18 2013 11: 29 New
              +2
              The working factories are saturated with specialists - nationalization will not solve the problem of employment and, accordingly, education. No one will build or raise collapsed production for two reasons - sales markets are lost and the lion's share of our products is uncompetitive simply because of the climatic conditions where the production works - depreciation charges are too large. In addition, the extractive economy allows to fill the budget with minimal costs and is a lever of international politics. It is not that simple... request
            2. djon3volta
              djon3volta April 18 2013 14: 37 New
              -3
              Quote: baltika-18
              It is necessary to change the system. To carry out large-scale nationalization of the raw materials industry, metallurgy, petrochemistry, large chemistry, mechanical engineering, energy and transport. At the same time, in agriculture, begin construction of large agro-industrial complexes with a large share of mechanization and automation.
              To close commercial universities, leave state ones, admit them in accordance with the order of long-term planning. To revive what we lost, leaving 20-30% of the economy sector to private initiative, fully support private initiative in the production sphere. I can write a lot, even describe my vision of modern / x and the scheme of formation of the internal cost of production, which allows not an increase but a decrease in the price. The system we have is an illusion, a lie if you want.
              It is necessary to change the system, without this end, a dead end and collapse.


              are you a member of the Communist Party of the Russian Federation? If so smart, why not a diplomat?
              1. baltika-18
                baltika-18 April 18 2013 14: 50 New
                0
                Quote: djon3volta
                you are not a case in the Communist Party

                Not and never am.
                Quote: djon3volta
                if so smart, why not a diplomat?

                Because you are not pros.
            3. atalef
              atalef April 18 2013 19: 04 New
              +1
              Quote: baltika-18
              It is necessary to change the system. To carry out large-scale nationalization of the raw materials industry, metallurgy, petrochemistry, large chemistry, mechanical engineering, energy and transport. At the same time, in agriculture, begin construction of large agro-industrial complexes with large

              They were already in this, the USSR is called, only then at least some kind of ideology made the people work, but not knowledge of life in the West. What will you campaign now? Everything around the farm is all around mine. Seen already. This model is only in the DPRK, but lives in Cuba, and even then due to the fact that they do not give people passports.
              Quote: baltika-18
              I can write a lot, even describe my vision of modern agricultural production and the scheme of forming the internal cost of production, which allows not an increase but a reduction in prices. The system we have is an illusion, a lie if you want.
              It is necessary to change the system, without this end, a dead end and collapse

              Draw a couple of formulas, laugh.
              Until a person feels like a master. in his case - nothing will change. Russia already has state corporations - read reports that are ineffective. bloated apparatus. risky, unjustified loans from abroad. Do you want to turn all of Russia into a state corporation? Enough 100 years of experimentation set, sblshali about a special way.
      2. Colonel
        Colonel April 18 2013 14: 30 New
        +2
        where did you see at least one bad word in the article about the Soviet education system?

        And you read at least the title of the article. And yet, why oppose the education (higher) and the labor of the worker? Is a cool milling machine operator or a turner or a locksmith - a rigger and a higher education - these are incompatible things ??? In the Union they were very much combined. And again, in the Union they did not drive anyone with sticks to the university and the education system also prepared good workers (those who are lacking today). You say that the production sphere is saturated with specialists. No, it (this sphere) is narrowed to such limits that even the existing minimum of specialists is redundant. And education has nothing to do with it. After leaving the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, he worked at the plant for three years and went a glorious battle path from the technologist of the workshop section to the head of the metrology laboratory and I know firsthand how smart engineers are lacking in the production.
        1. Iraclius
          Iraclius April 18 2013 18: 02 New
          0
          They meet me by their clothes ... I not only read the title of the article (but it is unsuccessful, I agree), but also its content. I have already written above that the problem of education in our country is complex and must be addressed comprehensively.
          In the USSR, graduates with a higher engineering education did not fall into work positions — no need to tell me fairy tales. If such cases were, then, then, such were the engineers. I’m not trying to oppose something there, but Prof. Preobrazhensky, through the mouth of M. A. Bulgakov, said quite correctly - everyone should do his own thing. A person has a talent and a penchant for technical sciences - you are welcome to engineer and work in your field to the benefit of the Motherland. There is no inclination or desire, but there is industriousness, then go to the workers - an honorable and paid profession. What am I saying wrong?
          If, however, a person who spends a lot of money on the training of the state (leaving commercial universities) is a kiosk seller after receiving a diploma in high school, then this indicates a vicious system. That's what I'm talking about.
          And you tell me about the narrowing of production. By the way, I also wrote about this above. It is necessary to read comments completely, and not to pull words from a context.
          Yours! hi
          1. atalef
            atalef April 18 2013 23: 56 New
            +1
            Quote: Iraclius
            In the USSR, graduates with higher engineering education did not fall into working positions

            They themselves walked because often they didn’t want to work in their specialty and the worker’s salary was often higher than the engineering one. There weren’t just a lot of engineers working as workers. but a lot. A nonsense that you will not see anywhere in the west. (Unless of course you are not philosophers or something like that, and even then units)
            1. Mhpv
              Mhpv April 19 2013 12: 32 New
              +1
              But what's wrong with having a university degree working on a lathe? Not everyone can be a leader, as not everyone can be a businessman now. For the West, such a worker is nonsense because they did not want to see educated people first in the USSR and now in Russia.
              Getting higher education, a person receives not only a specialty but also a culture of communication and behavior in society.
              1. atalef
                atalef April 19 2013 12: 39 New
                0
                Quote: mhpv
                And what's wrong with having a college degree working on a lathe?

                Money down the drain (both state and personal - although this is his problem) Well, I'm not talking about a violation of value systems, an engineer (under normal conditions and normally evaluated engineer labor) should not have a desire to work as a worker

                Quote: mhpv
                Getting higher education, a person receives not only a specialty but also a culture of communication and behavior in society.

                The level of education and culture (as well as intelligence) are not always connected.
                I have seen a huge number of educated boors in my life.
                1. Mhpv
                  Mhpv April 19 2013 13: 45 New
                  0
                  The state teaches a person, and the fact that he is a boor should not affect the rest of the people.
                  So just these educated louts are money down the drain, but they, oddly enough, will be leaders, and all the more so since now it’s not education that affects the current position, but the presence of connections.
          2. Colonel
            Colonel April 19 2013 11: 10 New
            0
            I’m not telling you fairy tales about how a production engineer was distributed on a lathe. I am trying to say that if a worker wanted to get a HE, he received it (even in absentia) and not necessarily after that he was eager for an engineering position. And if a person with a diploma works as a kiosk seller, then the education system has nothing to do with it, another thing. if all university graduates were good for anything but trade, then yes, the region. But this, fortunately, is not so. hi
  16. Garrin
    Garrin April 18 2013 08: 53 New
    +5

    Incredible numbers of lawyers and economists are the product of the first post-Soviet years. The so-called "managers" are a product of the 2000s.

    And where does the Soviet education system?
  17. Letnab
    Letnab April 18 2013 09: 19 New
    0
    Quote: fenix57
    Nonsense ... utterly obscure. " Soviet education was a real pyramid"- that is, all the achievements of the USSR are an illusion. request
    "Imagine an ordinary representative of the third generation of Soviet industrialization: his grandfather was a peasant, his father was a skilled worker, and he himself was an engineer. "- and that this is bad, it should be so. CHILDREN SHOULD BE SMARTER AND HEREER OF THEIR PARENTS. hi

    yes, in something smarter, but life experience as parents is acquired over time ..
  18. Egoza
    Egoza April 18 2013 09: 26 New
    +4
    The lady poured a bucket of slop on the Soviet education, but could not offer anything in essence. Under the Soviet education system, people were comprehensively developed. Children at school were prepared for life. The institutes trained professionals, and even the most "advanced" went to science. And there was a state order for certain specialists, because there was a planned economy. Having ruined the system of Soviet education, they also ruin science and turn youth into a herd, which will ultimately lead to the collapse of the whole country. And now urgent measures must be taken to prevent this from happening. Only here, the leadership, apparently, lacks the will and spirit to do this. I don’t think there was any strength.
    1. Misantrop
      Misantrop April 18 2013 09: 54 New
      +2
      Quote: Egoza
      The lady poured a bucket of slop on the Soviet education, but could not offer anything in essence
      The lady just poured a bucket of slop. Precisely because its ceiling is to hang around with such buckets. And pour where the finger will show. Under the USSR, EDUCATION was given, now they give a DIPLOMA. The lady is completely incomprehensible to the difference, so she drags through the whole article the idea of ​​the futility of extra knowledge, confusing KNOWLEDGE with the next purchased "crust", the cost of which must be repaid (after all, it’s paid for it, why doesn’t it work?) request

      A vivid example of what happens when a dumb dropout goes into analytics ... lol
  19. Iraclius
    Iraclius April 18 2013 09: 35 New
    +1
    Fidget, why did you all attack her? In what place did you read that she poured slop Soviet education? Everyone knows that this system was the best. But the USSR is no more. What to do with a multi-million army of people with HE? What should they do? The article is only about this - about redundancy and inefficiency modern education system. And this is a direct consequence of the commercialization of education, the lack of a clear strategic long-term planning in the economy, its pure focus on the extractive sector. Who is to blame? My first civic education is a process engineer, a specialist in oil refining. Not having a shaggy paw, I can get a job only at a gas station or tank farm. Why are 5 years of higher education for such posts?
    1. rodevaan
      rodevaan April 18 2013 10: 30 New
      +2
      Quote: Iraclius
      Fidget, why did you all attack her? In what place did you read that she poured slop Soviet education? Everyone knows that this system was the best. But the USSR is no more. What to do with a multi-million army of people with HE? What should they do? The article is only about this - about redundancy and inefficiency modern education system. And this is a direct consequence of the commercialization of education, the lack of a clear strategic long-term planning in the economy, its pure focus on the extractive sector. Who is to blame? My first civic education is a process engineer, a specialist in oil refining. Not having a shaggy paw, I can get a job only at a gas station or tank farm. Why are 5 years of higher education for such posts?


      - That's right, but you forgot some important things - 1. Education should not only give a diploma, and somehow determine the future career of a graduate, it should make a dumb and stupid animal living by instincts - a competent and knowledgeable person who can think analyze, create. Only in this way can society be called a society, and not a faceless dull gray obedient herd, and only in this way will society develop and civilize toward progress in ALL areas - in the family, in work, in public life.
      2. About the army of people with higher education - forgive me, for example, as an employer, or even as the owner of a gas station - which employee would be preferable to take - a highly skilled intelligent employee who has a HE, knows his job well, and can even advise clients on the quality, performance characteristics and various additives of gasoline, or an illiterate shepherd-laborer Uzbek, which yours and mine cannot understand in Russian, and which instead of a gas tank can fill this gas in the trunk? The fact that a huge number of people with HE turned out to be unnecessary for a huge country with huge needs is a misfortune and a terrible failure of degenerate shit-democrats who destroyed a high-class production base, left the country without their own products, and forced high-class specialists to shuttle across the border or stand in the Caucasus market in a churcoid tent and sell rotten rotten meat. Although, intellectually, these specialists should work in a research institute, and raise science, without which the future of a civilized society is unthinkable and which is now in a deep railway or at a university to transfer its knowledge to the younger generation.
      And do not tell me fairy tales about modern requirements. A shabby Uzbek, or a wild Chechen who came down from the mountains yesterday, can also sell shawarma in a hut, but in order to manage high-precision equipment at a factory or at a nuclear power plant, you need a specialist with a high level of training, which takes years and huge amounts of money.
      And it’s the trouble of the country that such specialists are thrown out into the street, and such equipment is stolen and sold to metal or abroad.
      Therefore, the people want to see Stalin in power, which this real crime would stop in the most severe way, without any fuss.
      1. Iraclius
        Iraclius April 18 2013 11: 03 New
        +1
        It is possible that they misunderstood me.
        I did not say that I like the current state of things. I will say more - I hate him. I have two higher educations, not counting the military, but I cannot find a job by any of them. And this is a direct consequence of state policy. The article says rightly - education is a continuation of state policy. I will develop the idea further - according to the state of the educational sphere, we can conclude about state policy.
        I repeat once again - the current state of the educational sphere is a consequence of the collapse of the USSR with all that it implies. Not factories are being built for engineers and workers, but engineers and workers are being trained for work at the factory.
        About an army of people with higher education - forgive me, for example, to your employer, or even as the owner of a gas station - which employee would be preferable to take

        Here you are wrong. The gas station at the gas station is not the level of a person with a higher education. At least as I prove. Spend 5 years of life then stick a refueling gun into the neck of the tank? You misunderstand the meaning of higher education.
        TSB says:
        Higher education is a combination of systematized knowledge and practical skills, which allow solving theoretical and practical problems in a professional profile.

        Have you heard about the qualifications in high school called "gas station refueling"? Me not.
        Already in the country, the imbalance between the availability and needs for working specialties. A welder or truck crane gets more than a design engineer in a factory. This is normal? I think not. Why is that? Because the state does not conduct any, I emphasize - no - educational policies. He does not need it. Education is practically left to chance. I'd like to ask those little people who rejoiced in the 91 year with EBN - is it joyful now?
        1. rodevaan
          rodevaan April 18 2013 11: 11 New
          0
          Quote: Iraclius
          It is possible that they misunderstood me.
          I did not say that I like the current state of things. I will say more - I hate him. I have two higher educations, not counting the military, but I cannot find a job by any of them. And this is a direct consequence of state policy. The article says rightly - education is a continuation of state policy. I will develop the idea further - according to the state of the educational sphere, we can conclude about state policy.
          I repeat once again - the current state of the educational sphere is a consequence of the collapse of the USSR with all that it implies. Not factories are being built for engineers and workers, but engineers and workers are being trained for work at the factory.
          About an army of people with higher education - forgive me, for example, to your employer, or even as the owner of a gas station - which employee would be preferable to take

          Here you are wrong. The gas station at the gas station is not the level of a person with a higher education. At least as I prove. Spend 5 years of life then stick a refueling gun into the neck of the tank? You misunderstand the meaning of higher education.
          TSB says:
          Higher education is a combination of systematized knowledge and practical skills, which allow solving theoretical and practical problems in a professional profile.

          Have you heard about the qualifications in high school called "gas station refueling"? Me not.
          Already in the country, the imbalance between the availability and needs for working specialties. A welder or truck crane gets more than a design engineer in a factory. This is normal? I think not. Why is that? Because the state does not conduct any, I emphasize - no - educational policies. He does not need it. Education is practically left to chance. I'd like to ask those little people who rejoiced in the 91 year with EBN - is it joyful now?


          - Yes, alas, but it is. And what is most regrettable - nothing is changing in education for the better even now, when the times of EBNi seem to have passed.
          Regarding the gas station at the gas station - I have led an example to the point that any employer will be interested in a competent job seeker with education, and not an illiterate person who has no idea about technology.
        2. Iraclius
          Iraclius April 18 2013 11: 15 New
          +2
          And now the main thing is that we live in a new Russia. We need to live on, right? I wrote above that I have no idea what to do. I admit, I was cunning - there are thoughts. Nobody in our country is going to build or restore industry at an accelerated pace - this is obvious and I think that it does not require an explanation of why this is, and not otherwise. What is the conclusion? Continue to produce semi-literate graduates with no job opportunities? I think this is not an option. This is another lever to raise social tension. I think that the only adequate option is propaganda in schools, that high-quality (namely, high-quality) secondary special education with subsequent employment is not a shame, but cool. This is a stable income and permanent employment. Further, it is imperative to reduce the number of commercial universities that do not understand whom they are preparing. Remove them and basta. Yes, unpleasant, but painful. But they are not needed at all, understand.
          The third step is the enlargement of the remaining universities. The goal is to simplify the control of the educational process and centralize the training of teachers "on the ground". The fourth step is a slight increase in budget places in higher education institutions after a thorough check of the need for specialized specialties. The introduction of elements of central planning in the work of higher education institutions - how many graduates in what specialties are trained and where they are employed. Given the level of development of current computer technology and networks - this is just a spit. And most importantly - to remove the elements of the Bologna system to hell, as wrecking and ineffective. Only then will some positive progress begin.
          Something like this ...
    2. djon3volta
      djon3volta April 18 2013 14: 44 New
      -3
      Quote: Iraclius
      I can get a job only at a gas station or tank farm. Why for such posts 5 years of higher education?

      well, everyone is sure that it is HE (SHE) after the institute will be arranged almost as the director of a huge company laughing I’m sure (almost everyone thinks so), as if I’d be the best and everyone will notice me! laughing
      but in fact, what do we see? out of 10 of these towers, 7-8 work at the offices, at the sellers in the markets, at some places, but not at all))) those who have friends in warm places can still go somewhere to crawl, and that’s not a fact, these acquaintances also have acquaintances)))
  20. sergius60
    sergius60 April 18 2013 09: 36 New
    0
    Regarding the biography of "author" it has already been competently said. No comments.
    Future. Reversal of resources in the Russian economy. And only memories of the “scientific and technological failure” of these decades will remain. After all, promising projects have already gone. The process has begun. Mark my words, in ten years we will abbreviate GDP decrypt - Vladimir the Great Winner! If a man before that stupidly do not bang ...
  21. darksoul
    darksoul April 18 2013 09: 59 New
    +1
    The Soviet system of education was the best in the world .... and now it’s ridiculous to call it education ... how can we say if we sell and prioritize the sale of national resources and buy all kinds of Chinese consumer society in which there is no place for engineers and qualified working .... I hope this rotten web is systematically built by Fursenko and Lebanon will not last long
  22. Vrungel78
    Vrungel78 April 18 2013 10: 02 New
    +2
    It would be good to revive the Soviet education system. Russian should wipe, along with all approaches to it. Miloslavskaya-mishandled Cossack. On stake am
  23. dddym
    dddym April 18 2013 10: 11 New
    +2
    The ghost of the Soviet educational system does not leave the country. Whatever happens in the field of education, we necessarily compare with what happened during the Soviet years: funding, programs, the level of teachers. What was the reality of education in the USSR? This, of course, is about 60 - 80's.
    In reality, I’ll tell you honestly - when I was practicing at the plant while still studying at the technical school — I had to mount the “automation” shield. You know how proud I was to know after 15 years that my shield was working and there were no failures for all 15 years. Now I work in a different field and because of my knowledge gained in "Scoop". Engaged in acting with children. At school. Do you know what question is most often asked by children who are given material about the war? And the brilliant question "Why are there wars?". And what is most striking is that with such a brilliant question, there is no level of knowledge on this subject. Neither about Zhukov nor about other characters they know anything at all. But they are well versed in clothes, they know who such Moses and Zverev, Ksyusha Sobchak. The level of education allows me to speak the language of the interlocutor who has received higher education now - at his level and in his field on an equal footing, and often even baffle them in their professional areas of knowledge. Recently I had a conversation with the head teacher of a prestigious gymnasium in Moscow. She said that the formula for modern education is "Success." However, few people even understand what it is. Do not be lazy, open explanatory dictionaries and try to find a definition for this phrase there. You will not find it because a person cannot be successful. Success may be the case. Nevertheless, modern education is stamping "successful" people. That's why we compare - there we were drawn to knowledge, and in the current education, children tend to have fun. For example, choosing teachers by voting. Who is more a clown is a good teacher.
    1. rodevaan
      rodevaan April 18 2013 10: 58 New
      +1
      Quote: dddym
      The ghost of the Soviet educational system does not leave the country. Whatever happens in the field of education, we necessarily compare with what happened during the Soviet years: funding, programs, the level of teachers. What was the reality of education in the USSR? This, of course, is about 60 - 80's.
      In reality, I’ll tell you honestly - when I was practicing at the plant while still studying at the technical school — I had to mount the “automation” shield. You know how proud I was to know after 15 years that my shield was working and there were no failures for all 15 years. Now I work in a different field and because of my knowledge gained in "Scoop". Engaged in acting with children. At school. Do you know what question is most often asked by children who are given material about the war? And the brilliant question "Why are there wars?". And what is most striking is that with such a brilliant question, there is no level of knowledge on this subject. Neither about Zhukov nor about other characters they know anything at all. But they are well versed in clothes, they know who such Moses and Zverev, Ksyusha Sobchak. The level of education allows me to speak the language of the interlocutor who has received higher education now - at his level and in his field on an equal footing, and often even baffle them in their professional areas of knowledge. Recently I had a conversation with the head teacher of a prestigious gymnasium in Moscow. She said that the formula for modern education is "Success." However, few people even understand what it is. Do not be lazy, open explanatory dictionaries and try to find a definition for this phrase there. You will not find it because a person cannot be successful. Success may be the case. Nevertheless, modern education is stamping "successful" people. That's why we compare - there we were drawn to knowledge, and in the current education, children tend to have fun. For example, choosing teachers by voting. Who is more a clown is a good teacher.


      - As for the shield - in the next house in the entrance there is a shield, on the back of which even the Soviet technical documentation and relay circuit have been preserved. Date - 1975 I have not even been born and did not even have plans. Soviet quality products.
  24. Bosk
    Bosk April 18 2013 10: 27 New
    +1
    Could there be a good education in a country where there is no good industry? - I have always believed that an educated society promotes industry, and not vice versa. And at the expense of the quality of education, I remember even when I was at school the guys in the mind could multiply double-digit numbers, and now this is almost equivalent to genius ...
  25. JonnyT
    JonnyT April 18 2013 10: 39 New
    0
    Article minus!
    Treacherous article!
  26. svp67
    svp67 April 18 2013 11: 01 New
    +2
    Soviet education nourished monster


    if the author by this meant Gorbachev or Yeltsin, then with both hands was “FOR”, so “NO”. Article "-1"
  27. Normal
    Normal April 18 2013 11: 23 New
    +3
    Soviet education nourished monster

    I agree with the title of the article.
    One of these monsters is Pyotr Shchedrovitsky.
    Quote: baltika-18
    I must say s.uk.a rare

    This creature was educated in the USSR, it worked perfectly and is now crap in our eyes.
    I would like to repeat the words of one of the heroes of the series "Eternal Call": "In the cradle you had to be strangled ... I did not look ..."
    But I do not agree with the meaning of the article. The defeatism and pseudo-ethereality of the interviewee are obvious.
    Article minus.
  28. Forget
    Forget April 18 2013 11: 23 New
    0
    Education is necessary, even total higher education, the more people will be trained, the greater the likelihood of talented specialists appearing among them, and as you know, cadres decide everything and not investments at all ...
    A vivid example, a lot of money goes to the aviation industry and there are still no mass aircraft .. or as one well-known submarine under repair, money is mastered every year and there are no repairs anyway ..
  29. Canep
    Canep April 18 2013 11: 46 New
    +2
    I don’t know what the author thinks there. I will tell about myself from 89-94 I studied at the Faculty of Engineering with a degree in metal-cutting machines and tools. Five years (it was in Kazakhstan) he studied and received an engineering degree. Now I work as a leading design engineer. Now they are studying at the same university for 4 years, specializing in mechanical engineering, i.e. combined 6 specialties into one, and they teach a year less. And they give out a bachelor’s diploma. Graduates can’t do anything. They can’t even draw a bolt. In Kazakhstan, too, seduced by the western education system. This is the result of this reform.
  30. Mhpv
    Mhpv April 18 2013 12: 12 New
    +1
    He began to read further casually ran through a delusional article.
    Here's what our children are learning right now:
    English riddle 2 class: "I am good, but not big, I can fly and sing, I am red and black, I can ride on a cat" guess hi
  31. Pancake
    Pancake April 18 2013 12: 13 New
    -4
    Soviet education is wretched and is not quoted by anyone in the West, which is very important now. So, at most, return Fursenko and change the track.
    1. Alex_g23r
      Alex_g23r April 18 2013 12: 33 New
      +1
      Education must meet the needs of your country.

      You want to return this to Fursenko: “The drawback of the Soviet education system was the attempt to form a human creator, and now the task is to nurture a qualified consumer who is able to use the results of creativity of others in a qualified way” Fursenko.
    2. Iraclius
      Iraclius April 18 2013 12: 42 New
      +3
      Fucking fat troll? I will feed you a little. If you think that the deity 95% of the population is an effective manager S. Jobs invented, say, a touch screen, then you are mistaken. Because copyright certificates were obtained in the USSR by Soviet scientists and engineers. Some of which later went abroad, so as not to work as janitors or clerks in Yeltsin's new Russia.
      Do you catch the point? And about the "not quoted in the West" - it’s you, dear, you have beguiled with the graduates of rednecks of the Higher Education Institutions, where they are training various types of govnomanedzhere. Here, yes. Our govnomazhenery Americans are not a couple. They only know how to steal, but they do not want and cannot work.
    3. Normal
      Normal April 18 2013 14: 25 New
      +1
      Quote: Pancake
      Soviet education is wretched

      Confused your worldview with Soviet education?
      Well .... The prize in the studio - skulls on the shoulder straps of the Blinomordom! To write less nonsense
  32. Igarr
    Igarr April 18 2013 12: 40 New
    +3
    Yes, brothers ...
    ".. Starlings look at starlings so seriously. They look, they look .."
    . We will not seriously discuss - ontological vacuum in the current system?
    We will not.
    Moreover, this vacuum is not there - it has been successfully pressed; it is "full" of LGBT yells, pedophilic sites, empty talk shows. And about the reality show - in general, keep quiet.
    The author (and the author of the interview) is from the category ... "dragonflies that all summer sang red." A track record is enough.
    He and she ... beat off their slice ... of bread and butter. He said a couple of dozen smart words. Everything is the pinnacle of activity. (This is me about Shcherbitsky. The same about Zoya - you can say)
    With the same success, she could talk about milking aphids by ants. About the problems of horseshoe Mongolian horses. About the ambiguous fate of the Bororo tribe in the Amazon River.
    To such specialists - to a damn - what to talk about and what to write. If only they paid.
    ....
    But for us here, it’s clear that the education system is being destroyed.
    It’s clear - who is falling apart. With whose consent it is falling apart.
    We even know what is possible, or rather, it is vitally necessary to do. With education, with the country.
    And ... nothing ... do it!
    We are working out flexibility .. fingers.
    .
    Who's guilty? We know.
    What to do? We also know.
    Let's start when? Do.
  33. Hort
    Hort April 18 2013 12: 46 New
    +2
    The problem was (and is) not in a huge number of engineers / managers, but in an inefficient approach to training personnel in principle.
    In my opinion, it would be effective to create a kind of "state order" for a certain number of specialists: for example, by 2020, so many thousands of electronic engineers, lawyers, chemists, etc.
    Upon completion of training, a young specialist must work for 5 years in state institutions / enterprises with a high share of state. property spent on his training funds from the budget. Of course, for an adequate salary and housing, if he has a family (an alternative to the mortgage program for young families). Moreover, you can also make sure that a person is interested in working longer than 5 years, say, at an aircraft factory — for the first 5 years, provide him with social housing. hired, and if he extends the contract for the next 5 years - give it to private ownership. Well this is how one of the options.
    In general, motivation and effective distribution of personnel are needed, then universities will be possible oblige to train specialists in good faith.
  34. k220150
    k220150 April 18 2013 13: 06 New
    0
    Petya is the son of Zhora, a family of posers. Although the older one is more decent, the younger one is next to Kiriyenko “Kinder Surprise”, the existential enemy of the Russians.
  35. Ratibor12
    Ratibor12 April 18 2013 13: 07 New
    +2
    The USSR will always be bad for those who plundered the wealth of the people and appropriated them to themselves.
  36. bunta
    bunta April 18 2013 13: 11 New
    +2
    Quote: hort
    First she says: “We don’t need so many engineers.” Then: “We don’t need so many lawyers and economists.”


    How awkward this helplessness and infantility! If you say that you don’t need as many engineers, then say how much you need!
    1. Hort
      Hort April 18 2013 14: 21 New
      0
      ??? Did not understand the comment
  37. fzr1000
    fzr1000 April 18 2013 13: 59 New
    +2
    This fool Zoe or paid ...
    1. svp67
      svp67 April 18 2013 14: 23 New
      +2
      Quote: fzr1000
      This fool Zoe or paid ...

      Most likely both
  38. Vtel
    Vtel April 18 2013 14: 42 New
    +2
    However, do not forget that this process occurred in conditions of constant and intensifying competition with another center of power that acted in a similar way - the United States. The competitor realized much faster that selling a lifestyle is more important than selling goods, that “liberalism” as an ideology of industrialization is a more popular product than “Marxism”.

    The fact is that "Marxism" brought Comrade Comrade to Russia. Trotsky, "our benefactor" on behalf of the "Zion wise men" from the USSR and England, but comrade Stalin did not badly chop all their raspberries. There, therefore, they began to think again, how to cultivate these Russian barbarians to their song - now they decided that the Liberals would better cope with this and the worst thing that they could almost cope with. And their assistants, well, at least a dime a dozen, there’s not enough to list the screen, well, at least “respected” Livanov or Fursenko. They already have to give the order "Liberast 1st degree to humiliate Russia"
  39. Avenger711
    Avenger711 April 18 2013 15: 47 New
    +2
    No, in theory, everything is correct, if the managerial / technical elite makes up 30 percent of the production structure, then why cook more. We include here any decision maker who manages very complex technical objects such as an airplane, or is engaged in creative work, the motor to repair the task is also a creative one. After all, someone should be engaged in unskilled labor, it is not necessary to work with a shovel, a truck can be driven there, probably 90% of men can be trained, and 90% of girls can work quite accurately in the office with papers.

    In general, a typical construction of a society of the nobility and slaves. And for the authorities, if the main thing is to sit in their seats, it’s convenient. Why do they think people.

    The population, however, will always have some kind of recipe in place that will increase the social status, if not of itself, then of its children, only specific requests will change, become an engineer or a lawyer, in general, the main thing is to unlearn, get a diploma, and there you’ll be able to push through at the output, we have the release of programmers, 90% of which cannot sort out a two-dimensional array, electronic engineers who have not seen a soldering iron in their eyes, lawyers with whom you yourself will become a respondent from the plaintiff. Now, getting a working specialty looks very reasonable in the eyes of parents, a good welder, or a turner is needed everywhere. All in a spiral.

    Apparently, there is no easy way out of this situation, but some measures suggest themselves:
    1) Acceleration of various private universities.
    2) Tighter selection system and, most importantly, screening. About half of the applicants received a diploma at my EMNIP stream. I don’t know about everyone’s fate, it’s a good thing that they have been employed by the majority, but as I graduated from graduate schools and diplomas, I am considering the possibilities.

    That is, the notion that enrolling in a university, torment yourself for a year in the 1st year, may still be in the 2nd year, and then a diploma and a highly paid job, almost automatically, should be exterminated.

    In general, it is necessary to start from schools, because the American approach to finding a certain super-solution for a specific situation completely cuts out the brains. That is, the worldview system must be built as part of compulsory education.
  40. aviamed90
    aviamed90 April 18 2013 17: 49 New
    +2
    At least in the USSR there was a vocational school system. And the graduates of these vocational schools worked in production. And in today's education system is there a vocational school? Where are skilled workers trained? And about the social elevator in the article in general nonsense! In general, one can cite thousands of facts refuting everything else mentioned in the article!
    Minus, minus and minus again! As said...
  41. Mrassy2012
    Mrassy2012 April 18 2013 18: 46 New
    +1
    Bullshit, nonsense, the order of current officials from education.
  42. NOBODY EXCEPT US
    NOBODY EXCEPT US April 18 2013 19: 43 New
    +1
    Grandfather and grandmother were peasants, parents were working on a piece of iron, I had a Soviet university behind me ... everything was written .. I studied at a secondary school, my son graduated from high school in 2005, my younger children are in middle school, if it weren’t for Soviet education as if the children studied because the eldest is now younger, they teach such nonsense in schools ,,, and about the article .... it’s bad to speak about women neither ethically and there are no other words, some gestures .....
  43. starch
    starch April 18 2013 21: 47 New
    0
    All these are liberoid moans. Under the condition of the normal innovative development of production, the position of the operator of a complex modern machine tool (CNC, etc.) should have been the primary engineering one. Well, even though the walls of the Universities and libraries are preserved, upon reaching sovereignty, it will be possible to start training normal engineering and teaching staff, thank God, even older teachers (such as mine, father, for example, 72 years old) have the strength and desire to teach properly
  44. serg792002
    serg792002 April 18 2013 21: 54 New
    0
    Disgusting. Complete inadequate.
  45. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 April 18 2013 22: 16 New
    +1
    The people who created the Soviet education, the post-war option, were great. Without a doubt. And here comes the only true moment in the whole article. It was not for that country. This, alas, is true.
    Stalin considered it possible to build communism by the 60 years. For communism, education was built. And what is communism, from the point of view of ensuring its functioning (and not blah blah blah CPSU ... traitors!)? And this is automation. That is, the replacement of low-skilled labor with machine labor. Not as automation as it is now, but real, unfulfilled, destroyed ... For communism, in which r ... the robot is rowing and no one is quibbling on anyone with a superpont wheelbarrow and dating (or rather relatives) near the authorities, it needs there were human gods. Smart, strong, with the broadest erudition and sophisticated skills. Ready to set and solve the tasks before which the leading states and powerful industrial empires now pass.
    The whole history of the USSR after Stalin is, first and foremost, the history of the struggle and destruction of creators brought up by the system of our education. It turned out, yes ... Do you know that in the suburbs there are two strange concrete pools, and there are not even villages near them? These are the foundations of the installations at which the Inverse laboratory was going to study ... non-classical effects that arise when trying to overcome the light barrier? Collider, speak? Oh well...
  46. Woodoo
    Woodoo April 20 2013 02: 37 New
    0
    Garbage liberoid.