On the damage that predetermined the death of the Oslyabya in the Battle of Tsushima

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On the damage that predetermined the death of the Oslyabya in the Battle of Tsushima

As is known, the squadron battleship Oslyabya perished as a result of flooding that was beyond the crew's control. During the battle, the ship suffered a strong trim by the bow and a list to the left side, and the list increased very quickly, causing the battleship to lie on its side, and then capsize and sink.

In order to recreate the picture of the death of the Oslyabya with any degree of reliability, it is necessary to understand which of its compartments were flooded. There are different versions on this issue, including one according to which the squadron battleship perished as a result of two, possibly three hits in the waterline area. But the respected A. Rytik did a great job, analyzing the available evidence, and came to the conclusion that seven Japanese shells hit the left side of the ship, in the waterline area. A. Rytik gave a very detailed description of each of them. To date, this is probably the most detailed and detailed version of the damage to the Oslyabya, containing, moreover, the maximum number of hits - that is why I take it as a basis. But I do not agree with A. Rytik's conclusions in everything, and my reasons will be set out below.

Hit #1. Breach in the 1st compartment of the living deck


A twelve-inch Japanese shell hit the Oslyabya's bow, striking the side plating almost at the waterline opposite the first compartment of the living deck. The consequences for the battleship were very serious: due to the fact that the hit damaged the bulkhead separating the first and second compartments, both of them began to communicate freely with the sea. This could only be corrected by patching the hole, but the crew was unable to do this.

The exact time of the hit is not recorded, but the senior mine officer of the Oslyabya, M.P. Sablin, indicated that the battleship was hit by "one of the first shots", and the mine-engine conductor of the Oslyabya, V.N. Zavarin, later testified that this hit occurred "no more than 10 minutes after the start of the battle". Considering that the Japanese opened fire on the Oslyabya at 13:52 and the time required for sighting, it is most likely that this shell hit between 13:55 and 13:59. A. Rytik believes that the hit was "around 13:55".

The fact of this hit does not raise the slightest doubt – it is well described by many witnesses, including M.P. Sablin and mine-machine conductor V. Zavarin.

Holes in the 2nd, 10th and 16th coal pits


Having analyzed eyewitness accounts, A. Rytik came to the conclusion that the Oslyabya was damaged in the area of the waterline, as a result of which water began to flow into three coal pits: the 2nd, 10th and 16th. And, since these pits are located at a considerable distance from each other, there could not have been less than three hits. However, A. Rytik assumes that not one, but two shells hit the 2nd coal pit.

In my opinion, which does not claim to be the Absolute Truth, in this case eyewitnesses describe a single hit by a single projectile. Such an assumption may seem strange, but let us carefully study the available materials.

In support of the hole in the 2nd coal pit, A. Rytik cites two testimonies: the commander of the squadron battleship "Sisoy Veliky" M. V. Ozerov and the galvanizer K. S. Boltyshev. Thus, A. Rytik cites the testimony of M. V. Ozerov:

“I believe that the armour plates on the left side of the Oslyaba opposite the command bridge fell off, since I clearly saw the burning side, and the list... formed quickly.”

However, the respected author did not quote the battleship commander's words in full. M. V. Ozerov stated the following verbatim:

“I believe that the armor plates on the Oslyaba fell off on the left side opposite the command bridge, since I clearly saw the burning side and the list right formed quickly."

I can assume that A. Rytik considered that M. V. Ozerov made a clear slip of the tongue here, since it is well known that the Oslyabya was listing to the left side, but not to the right. Perhaps that is why he did not quote M. V. Ozerov in full. However, M. V. Ozerov was indeed sure that the Oslyabya was listing to the right, which he not only testified to the Investigative Commission, but also reported in his report on the battle:

"At 14:30 o'clock in the afternoon "Oslyabya" with a large list to starboard "came out of line to the right."

Of course, both of his testimonies in this part are incorrect, but the reason why M. V. Ozerov's memory gave such an interesting failure is not important. The answer to another question is important: why did M. V. Ozerov consider the list to be right on board confirming that with left the armor plates fell off the sides? In my opinion, this is quite obvious.

Opposite the "command bridge" the armor plates of the "Oslyabya" were deep in the water, since there was no upper armor belt there - only the main one. If the battleship had really heeled to the starboard side, then the upper edge of the armor plates of the starboard side would have gone deep under the water, and the left side, on the contrary, would have risen above the water.

At the same time, the commander of the Sisoj Velikiy reported that he saw a fire, but the armor should definitely not be burning. So, if M.V. Ozerov saw the left side burning at the waterline, while the ship was listing to starboard, this should have indicated that the armor plates had fallen off and the lining underneath them that had come out of the water was burning, or coal in the coal pit, or maybe something else. In this interpretation, M.V. Ozerov's remark makes sense. But, since in fact the battleship was listing to port, his testimony cannot at all indicate that the left side had hit the 2nd coal pit.

Let us move on to the memoirs of the galvanizer K. S. Boltyshev, who, according to the words of the hold sailors, wrote:

"After several hits to the armor of the side opposite the conning tower, the plates began to fall off like damp plaster, and two new large shells hit the exposed unprotected side at the waterline and immediately broke through the entire gate. Water rushed in and quickly spread along the slope of the armored deck. A work division led by engineer Zmachinsky was called in to plug the hole, and they tried to close the hole with wooden shields, propping them up with stops. However, the wave knocks out the beams, and they have to work waist-deep in water. The spare coal pit on the slope has already been flooded, which is why the ship is listing."

So, objectively assessing this evidence, we see an internal contradiction in it. On the one hand, K.S. Boltyshev writes about hits "in the side armor opposite the conning tower", which indicates a hit in the area of the 2nd coal pit, which was located there. But on the other hand, the upper coal pit was not protected by armor. Obviously, something that does not exist cannot fall off. If we assume that it was not the upper armor belt that fell off, but the main armor belt, which were opposite the 2nd coal pit, then the description of the struggle for survivability under the leadership of Zmachinsky looks like complete surrealism.



In this case, the lower coal pit would have been literally overwhelmed by a stream of water, which would have been impossible to stop with any wooden shields. Let's not forget that the upper edge of the Oslyabya's armor belt in its bow part, in the best case, rose above the water by 10 centimeters, and most likely was somewhere at sea level. That is, with such damage, the battleship would have received a large underwater hole, and the coal pit on the slope would immediately fill with water.

It would be a different matter if the hits had hit the upper 102 mm belt, which, as we now know thanks to the research of A. S. Rytik, was made of low-quality armor plates. If such a plate had fallen off, then yes, water would have flooded into the pit, of course, but it would still have been an above-water breach, and trying to cover it with shields was quite realistic. But in the area of the 2nd coal pit there was no 102 mm belt.

It turns out that the respected galvanizer got something mixed up, or rather, he was confused by the sailors from whose words he wrote. Either K.S. Boltyshev described the location correctly - damage to the side in the area of the 2nd coal pit, but was mistaken about the armor, or he reported the armor correctly, but was mistaken about the place of impact. This alone does not give grounds to consider his recollections as evidence of hitting the 2nd coal pit. At the same time, indirect evidence indicates that the hit described by K.S. Boltyshev has no relation to the 2nd coal pit.

Let's start with the fact that the phrase of K. S. Boltyshev: "After several hits to the side armor opposite the conning tower, the plates began to fall off like damp plaster" does not necessarily mean that the plates began to fall off exactly opposite the conning tower. It can also be read as if first there were hits to the main armor belt in the bow of the Oslyabya, and then armor plates began to fall off somewhere else. And these are not my personal insinuations. For example, V. P. Kostenko holds this opinion, writing in his memoirs:

"The Japanese zeroed in on the motionless Oslyaba with the first salvo, which received heavy hits from 12-inch shells in the bow along the waterline against the conning tower... ...And when the Oryol entered service ahead of the Oslyaba, the latter already had a trim by the bow up to the hawse pipes. Its 10-inch bow turret was destroyed, two bow casemates were smashed, and a large fire was blazing on the rostra. Then the Oslyaba began to receive salvoes of 8-inch shells from the cruisers. As a result of repeated hits, the armor plates of the upper 5-inch belt began to fall off the side, the bolts of which were destroyed by the explosion of high-explosive shells. In the exposed side, new hits made a huge gap on the slopes of the lower deck..."

That is, we have the same sequence as K. S. Boltyshev: first, the shells hit the bow opposite the conning tower (where the armor belt was at the waterline), then the armor plates fall off. But - completely different armor plates and in a completely different place on the ship.

Let us now recall the testimony of M. P. Sablin. In his report to the commander of the Vladivostok port he reported:

"...the shell hit the 10th coal pit on the left side, penetrating the armor. Then water appeared in the left reserve powder chamber, and the list began to increase. As the list began, three side corridors on the right side began to fill with water, and then, as the list increased, the right ammunition magazines."

In another report addressed to the commander of the Siberian naval crew, M.P. Sablin described this moment in a little more detail:

"After the hole in the coal pit and the spare powder magazine, the list began to increase significantly. I spoke about this with the hold mechanic and the ship's engineer Zmachinsky. The ship's engineer found that such a list could not be allowed. At this time, the starboard corridors filled with water, and he insisted on flooding the starboard ammunition magazines."

There are two oddities here.

Firstly, the picture of a huge hole as described by K.S. Boltyshev is astounding. But M.P. Sablin was in the bow of the Oslyabya and in close proximity to the 2nd coal pit, but he did not report any damage to it. Let us recall how noticeable were the consequences of the hit opposite the 1st compartment of the living deck, according to M.P. Sablin:

"When we got a hole in the nose compartment, the smoke in the 1st and 2nd nose compartments was so thick that the incandescent light bulbs were completely invisible and there was complete darkness."

And it turns out that the hit into the 2nd coal pit was completely unnoticeable? This is probably only possible if the pit was filled to the brim with coal. But if this were so, then where did Zmachinsky and the sailors of the repair division, who were trying to stop the water from entering the hull, find room in it?

Secondly, according to A.S. Rytik, it turns out that the Japanese hit the 2nd coal pit at the very beginning of the battle, even before the hit in the 10th coal pit, described by M.P. Sablin. Let's assume that this is how it all happened. But then it turns out that M.P. Sablin spoke with Zmachinsky after he tried to eliminate the consequences of this hit. Let's take into account that the conversation between them was about how to stop the increasing list to the left side. Under such conditions, Zmachinsky obviously should have informed M.P. Sablin about the presence of a hole in the 2nd coal pit, but nothing of the sort happens.

It turns out that M.P. Sablin is somehow aware of the holes in the 10th coal pit, the leak in the reserve powder chamber, which are very far from his control and which he could not have seen personally. But the most serious hole in the bow of the ship, where M.P. Sablin was, and even after talking with the person who directly supervised its sealing, remains a mystery to him.

All of the above allows me to assume that there were no hits in the 2nd coal pit, and K.S. Boltyshev’s description refers to the 10th coal pit, not the 2nd.

Let us now move on to the entry into the 16th coal pit. A. S. Rytik believes that this took place, based on the following data:

1. Memories of Prince S. V. Gorchakov, who served on the Oslyaba as a watch officer;

2. The significant distance between the 10th coal pit and the spare powder chamber, which makes the version about water flowing from the former to the latter look very doubtful.

Let us first examine the prince’s testimony:

“…I began to notice an increasing list, which was initially caused by underwater holes, the largest of which, as far as I remember, was in the rear 16th coal pit, from which the pit filled with water...”

The evidence is, to put it mildly, weak. Firstly, it is obvious that S. V. Gorchakov himself did not see this hole, but heard it from third parties. In addition, his reservation "as far as I remember" indicates that S. V. Gorchakov is not confident in his memory and allows for the possibility of error.

Let's assume that S. V. Gorchakov was right. But why then do we have information about water being pumped out of the 1st and 2nd boiler rooms, but we know nothing about the flooding of the 3rd boiler room, opposite which the 16th coal pit and the spare powder chamber were located? After all, if S. V. Gorchakov is right and the 16th pit was flooded the most, then the water should have gone into the 3rd boiler room.

Now about the water in the spare powder chamber. Indeed, between the 10th coal pit and this chamber the distance is quite large, both on the living deck and on the lower one. Such a spread of water is difficult to explain by combat damage to the 10th coal pit.


It’s difficult... But the fact is that the water in the Oslyabya’s hull was distributed in a very strange way.

Let's take the case in Port Arthur, when on the day of S.O. Makarov's death, the Pobeda ran into a Japanese mine. The explosion occurred at a depth of 11 feet, the hull of the Pobeda received serious damage - an underwater hole from frame 54 to 58, 24 x 16 feet (7,31 x 4,87 m). And what happened? Two coal pits were flooded, No. 2 between frames 8 and 49 and No. 54 between frames 7 and 54. That is, coal pits where water had direct access. In addition to them, there were two sections of the side corridor between frames 58 and 49 and a minor leak in one of the two ammunition magazines, about which Kuteinikov later wrote:

"The ammunition magazine inside this one, 6 feet from the outer side, was damaged only slightly in the corner closest to the hole, and even then it did not leak much."

That's it! The water didn't go anywhere else.


Damage to Pobeda

And what about the Oslyabya? So, the shell hits the 102-mm belt opposite the 10th coal pit. Let's say it penetrates it and explodes in the compartment. Let's say it damages the deck, causing water to flow into the coal pit on the slope. This is normal.

But then the water finds a way through the bevel. Well... let's say that's still okay. Through the "poorly sealed necks" the water gets into the 10th lower and 12th coal pits. Okay, but should the spread of water be stopped here? But no - the water flows on, straight into the boiler room.


And it flows so intensely that M. P. Sablin has to turn on the turbines to pump water out of the 2nd boiler room. That is, where at Pobeda after an underwater explosion, a huge hole, streams of water under pressure, the latter does not go further than the neighboring compartment, at Oslyabya it calmly spreads not even to the second, but to the third compartment from the one that was damaged!

And one more thing. The water didn't just gush into the 10th lower and/or 12th coal pits like a river. It should have flowed in there gradually. So what, the stokers didn't have enough time to close the doors to these coal pits to prevent the 2nd boiler room from being flooded? But M. P. Sablin turned on the turbine not only in the 2nd, but also in the 1st boiler room. That is, sea water even managed to flow in there!


But even if we assume that I am wrong and that the water entered the 1st boiler house not from the 10th, but from the flooded 2nd coal pit, it does not become any easier. Because then it turns out that at Oslyabya neither the slope nor the lower coal pits were able to limit the water flow in two cases out of two.

Therefore, I state: after sea water gained access to the hull of the Oslyabya, it felt extremely at ease there, spreading through the compartments as freely as it could not even dream of in the case of the same Pobeda. But if this is so, then the leakage of water from the 10th coal pit into the spare powder chamber ceases to look like something completely beyond the pale.

Of course, there are other options. For example, water in the reserve powder chamber could have appeared as a result of a Japanese shell exploding near the side of the Oslyabya, which, under the influence of a hydraulic shock, gave a small leak. Or M.P. Sablin was simply given incorrect information, someone mixed something up, so that the leak was not in the reserve powder chamber, but in another room, say, in the shell cellar in the immediate vicinity of the 10th coal pit. There can be many options, and the flooding of the 16th coal pit is only one of them.

Based on the above, it turns out that there is, in general, no evidence of a hole in the 16th coal pit, and the evidence can be explained by other reasons.

And here's what's interesting. Each of the witnesses writes about only one hole in the coal pit. None of them describes two holes at once or more. S. V. Gorchakov writes about one, although he mentions other holes, but does not hint at all that these were holes in coal pits.

M.P. Sablin? A hole in the 10th coal pit, and that's it. Yes, "water appeared in the reserve powder chamber", but M.P. Sablin does not write anything about the reason for its appearance. Moreover, according to the text of the report, he speaks of them as one hole: "After a hole in the coal pit and the reserve powder chamber..." A hole. Not "holes".

K. S. Boltyshev? Again, a description of one hole in one coal pit.

The commander of the destroyer "Bravy" Durnovo 1st, who described the damage from the words of the crew members of the "Oslyabya" he rescued?

"Soon after the first shell, the second hit the tenth coal pit, penetrating the armor. According to the crew, the impact of this shell caused a whole sheet of armor to fall off. Water appeared in the left reserve powder magazine of the 10-inch guns, and the list began to increase sharply."

Simply put, we have a number of people involved in the battle, and each of them reports one hit in the Oslyabya coal pit. Only the locations of the hits are different. But this is not surprising, since they all wrote about this hit from hearsay.

In my opinion, this is what happened. First, the Oslyabya was hit by a 12-inch shell in the living quarters opposite the 1st compartment, as described above. Then, a few minutes later, another 12-inch shell hit the 102-mm armor plate opposite the upper 10th coal pit. It may have exploded as it passed through the plate, causing severe damage to it, or it may have passed through the armor and exploded immediately behind it, causing the plate or its main part to simply break off with the impact and its fragments to fall overboard – a serious “hole” was formed, which, in fact, became the source of stories about the “gate” in the side of the Oslyabya, formed by Japanese shells.

The sailors under Zmachinsky's leadership tried to seal the resulting "gates", but were unsuccessful, the water went down, both deep into the ship (into the 10th lower, and possibly the 12th coal pits), and to the sides, spreading along the armor slope. I do not claim, but I cannot exclude that it was through the slope that the water eventually reached the spare powder chamber of the 10-inch guns. Zmachinsky, seeing that it was not possible to seal the hole, and having received news that the water had already spread very far, and also observing the increase in the list, went to organize counter-flooding. It was then that a conversation took place between M.V. Sablin and Zmachinsky together with the bilge mechanic, at which a decision was made to flood not only the starboard corridors, but also the starboard ammunition magazines.

K.S. Boltyshev, based on the words of the hold sailors, later completely correctly described the struggle for survivability - an attempt to block access to water that had gushed into the 10th coal pit. But he or the hold sailors made a logical error "after this - therefore as a result of this", and they described the "falling out" of the plate as a consequence of shells hitting the bow of the Oslyabya. Although this was absolutely not the case. And perhaps K.S. Boltyshev did not mean at all that the plates fell out opposite the battleship's conning tower or as a result of hits to its bow.

Prince S.V. Gorchakov simply confused the 16th and 10th coal pits in his memories.

This version explains almost everything, including the lack of information about the struggle for survivability in the Oslyabya coal pits. When a shell hit the battleship's bow in the area of the 1st compartment of the living deck, the fire-holding division headed by F. S. Lebedev was sent to fight the breach, and M. P. Sablin came up there. Below we will consider other hits on the Oslyabya, where there are also mentions of attempts to seal the breaches that threatened to flood. But for three breaches in the coal pits (according to A. S. Rytik), there is only one description of the struggle for survivability given by K. S. Boltyshev, which is extremely strange. The version that there were not enough divisions can hardly be considered reliable - the same artillery The ship's starboard crew was not occupied at the guns and could be used to repair critical damage.

But if we assume that the hole was not in three coal pits, but in one, then everything fits. One hole - one description.

A hole in the living deck near the mine apparatus


A.S. Rytik takes her description from Novikov-Priboy:

"About 20-30 minutes after the start of the battle, we got a second small hole opposite the left mine apparatus, above the waterline, where the armor ends. It was somehow patched up with so-called hawse-sacks."

Whether this hole existed or not, I cannot know. Not only did the ship's butler from the Orel describe the damage to the Oslyabya from hearsay, but his memoirs were also compromised by obviously unreliable information. But even if the hole was described correctly, it turns out that the damage was small and was repaired very quickly, which is why it could not have seriously affected the stability of the Oslyabya.

A hole in the 2nd compartment of the living deck


There are several sources that testify to it, and there is no reason to consider them unreliable. It was a hit in the bow of the Oslyabya, not far from the first hit in the living deck, but not against the first, but against the second compartment. Since, according to F. S. Lebedev, it was "no more than two meters from the first", it is possible that these two hits became the basis for the legend about the "hole through which you can drive a carriage".

The important thing here is the following.

Firstly, this hole appeared practically at the moment of the Oslyabya's failure, when the ship already had a strong list and trim and was doomed. Secondly, in essence, this hole did not reduce the stability of the Oslyabya at all, since it only paved the way for water into the 2nd compartment of the living deck. And this 2nd compartment was already freely communicating with the sea through the hole in the area of the 1st compartment of the living deck, since the shell that made it also damaged the bulkhead between the compartments, and it was not possible to fix it. Therefore, this hit can be considered, with a stretch, only as having accelerated the death of the battleship, but it could not have been the cause of its death.

Conclusions


In view of the above, it is possible that during the battle the Oslyabya received three or four hits in the waterline area, of which two (in the area of the mine apparatus and in the 2nd compartment of the living deck) were insignificant, and the other two (opposite the 1st compartment of the living deck and in the 102-mm armor belt in the area of the 10th coal pit) predetermined the death of the ship.

Is this possible? Let's try to test this hypothesis by calculating the flooding of the Oslyabya compartments.

To be continued ...
154 comments
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  1. +3
    5 August 2025 05: 29
    Thanks for continuing, Andrey!
    Although you consistently build a version of the "construction holes" of the battleship "Oslyabya", I ask you to take into account the possibility of secondary damage due to large fragments of Japanese 12" shells and fragments of structures that received significant acceleration during the explosion.
    This is, of course, interesting, but the primary cause of the sinkings is the abundance of dangerous hits in a short period of time. If the high-quality Peresvet had been in the place of the defective Oslyabya, its fate would have been similar. Another ten minutes and twenty 8-12 inch shells (the Japanese had already zeroed in) - and death would have been inevitable.
    1. +4
      5 August 2025 06: 27
      N to the kind words about Andrey’s work!
      The article is definitely a plus!!!
      I would like to point out that the apron was not on Osoyabi’s side, seven hits at the beginning of the battle, half of which were along the waterline.
    2. +4
      5 August 2025 08: 05
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      Please take into account the possibility of secondary damage due to large fragments of Japanese 12"

      Victor, they usually didn't give large fragments:)
      Quote: Victor Leningradets
      but the root cause of flooding is the abundance of dangerous hits in a short period of time.

      Peresvet survived :) With very similar damages
      1. +2
        5 August 2025 08: 18
        Peresvet received them throughout the battle at Shantung, and Oslyabya - in 20 minutes. By the way, when you write that the gun crews of the casemates on the starboard side were free to be involved in patching up the holes, then keep in mind that they were the first to make up for the losses in the personnel of the artillerymen on the left side.
        I would still like to know your opinion on how the water could have spread through the left side compartments. In any case, a construction defect could have led to no more than water seepage, and not a catastrophic spill.
        1. +4
          5 August 2025 08: 21
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          Peresvet received them throughout the entire battle at Shantung, and Oslyabya - in 20 minutes.

          Well, no, not really. Peresvet got the bulk of the hits in a very short time, at the beginning of the second phase of the battle.
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          of these, the losses in the personnel of the left-hand artillerymen were primarily replenished

          They couldn't have been too great, these losses.
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          I would still like to know your opinion on how the water could have spread through the compartments on the left side.

          Absolutely and necessarily, and even with calculations. Honestly and for a long time I pored over shipbuilding textbooks... Although, of course, I could screw up due to inexperience
  2. +6
    5 August 2025 06: 49
    Then the Oslyaba began to receive salvos of 8-inch shells from the cruisers. As a result of repeated hits, the armor plates of the upper 5-inch belt began to fall off the side, the bolts of which were destroyed by the explosion of high-explosive shells.

    That is, armor plates. without penetration, were displaced, and then torn off by hits and explosions HE shells? Was something like this recorded anywhere else at Tsushima? If an armor plate "falls off like wet plaster" from hits and bursts of high-explosive shells, then we should be talking about the quality of construction, or rather, the lack thereof...
    1. +4
      5 August 2025 06: 59
      The Japanese Mikasa withstood about 30 hits, our Osyabya - three (four) times less. Mikaso was a priority target throughout the battle, Oslyabya died in the first half hour.
      The factor of poor design or construction is secondary in this case. The enemy realized its capabilities, both technical and tactical, as well as moral and psychological. We accepted the fight on their terms… and lost.
      Something like that, have a nice day everyone!
    2. +5
      5 August 2025 07: 06
      Here the word "quality" has rather a tangential meaning. If the armor bolts were of good quality, then there was no talk about fastening the plates in a row to each other. The upper armor belt was made up of relatively thin and large-area plates to withstand six-inch shells (which scared everyone so much after the battle on the Yalu River). When hit by large-caliber high-explosive shells, even without penetration, the plate receives a significant deflection, working as a membrane. In this case, local stresses in the armor bolts exceed the strength limit (especially if the hardening technology is not followed) and the plate simply bounces off the side during the return movement of the membrane.
      Well, such armor is no good against suitcases! The task of a naval commander is to control a squadron, allowing to avoid massed enemy fire on a selected target, and not our national habit of "tolerating" a hail of enemy shells.
      1. +1
        5 August 2025 16: 47
        There are doubts that 100 mm armor will withstand a hit from a 152 mm armor-piercing shell weighing 45 kg.
        1. +1
          5 August 2025 22: 03
          Quote: TermNachTER
          There are doubts that 100 mm armor will withstand a hit from a 152 mm armor-piercing shell weighing 45 kg.

          And the Japanese did not have full-fledged armor-piercing shells. There were very few cases of armor penetration during the entire RYA, only two or three.
    3. +4
      5 August 2025 08: 07
      Quote: severok1979
      That is, the armor plates, without being penetrated, were displaced and then torn off by hits and explosions of high-explosive shells?

      You are right when talking about quality, but it should still be taken into account that Kostenko wrote from hearsay; he himself spent the battle in the hospital and did not see the circumstances of Oslyabya’s death.
      1. +3
        5 August 2025 11: 46
        You didn't quite understand. When armor plates start to fall off when high-explosive shells hit and explode without penetrating the plates - was something like this generally recorded on other Russian and Japanese ships at Tsushima? Or was it only locally on Oslyaba, and with a suspicion of distortion in the description from secondary sources?
        1. +2
          5 August 2025 11: 59
          Something similar happened to the armor plate adjacent to the stem of the "Eagle". The plate (not penetrated) fell off to the side of the stem, but was held on by the stern bolts.
          Later, the armor plates of battleships were torn off when they were hit by torpedoes that had a small depression.
          1. +3
            5 August 2025 16: 57
            Quote: Victor Leningradets
            The plate (not pierced) fell off to the side of the stem, but was held on by the stern bolts

            Unfortunately, Japanese photos do not confirm the detachment of this plate.
            1. +2
              5 August 2025 23: 48
              Got to the photo of the bow section of the "Iwami". The plate is in place.
              1. 0
                6 August 2025 07: 47
                Good morning!
                This is immediately after capture?
                1. 0
                  6 August 2025 08: 53
                  Yes, this photo was taken in Mysuru
              2. 0
                6 August 2025 08: 54
                Although, perhaps Kostenko is right. The plate tore off the bolt heads, but did not fall off much.
    4. +1
      5 August 2025 16: 40
      I think it's just for the beauty of the picture. 203 mm, weighing almost a hundred kilograms, even a high-explosive fragmentation shell, should have penetrated 100 mm of armor. Another thing is that the armor plates could have been torn off their fastenings by the shock wave and shaking of the hull. Somehow I didn't delve into the method of fastening the casemate armor to the side.
    5. +4
      5 August 2025 18: 17
      Quote: severok1979
      If the armor plate "falls off like wet plaster"

      In my article https://topwar.ru/259199-kak-pogib-bronenosec-osljabja.html I came to the conclusion that no plates fell off
  3. +4
    5 August 2025 09: 39
    So much has been written that it can be said in a couple of sentences) the fast battleships of the Pobeda type were built for cruising in the ocean, and not for battle in a line against squadron battleships. Armor protection was sacrificed for speed and cruising range. However, neither the first nor the second happened. A big mistake was made by the naval leadership. In the same time and with the same money, it was possible to build two or three battleships of the Poltava or Rostislav type.
    1. +7
      5 August 2025 09: 58
      Quote: TermNachTER
      mistake of the naval leadership.

      Not only the naval leadership, but the country's leadership as a whole. They could not decide on the tasks facing them, and therefore could not choose the instrument. However, the political situation at that time was changing so quickly that mistakes were practically inevitable.
      Something like that.
      Quote: TermNachTER
      For the same amount of time and money, it would have been possible to build two or three battleships of the Poltava type.

      In general, yes, although given technological progress, full-fledged battleships would be a little more expensive.
      Quote: TermNachTER
      or "Rostislav".

      Lord, why him?
      1. +2
        5 August 2025 10: 36
        1. Well, I simplified it. In general, the top military-political leadership was not up to par, which is not surprising, since no one prepared Nikolashka for this position.
        2. Even two normal battleships in the Far East would be better than two "Victories".
        3. Well, if the admirals wanted to have 2nd class battleships, according to the British model. Then "Rostislav" is much better than "Pobedas". Having practically the same armament, it had much better armor. And the speed is like "Poltavas" ("Fuji").
        1. +3
          5 August 2025 12: 43
          ... in general, it’s not surprising, since no one prepared Nikolashka for this position.

          Alexander III - too, but...
          However, many people were not “prepared”: Peter I, Catherine I, Anna Ioannovna, Elizabeth, Catherine II and Nicholas I, as well as this galaxy of “accidental rulers”!
          1. +3
            5 August 2025 12: 49
            Well, I suppose that Pyotr Alekseevich had some minimal training within the limits of that time. Anna Ivanovna came from the position of Duchess of Courland and Semgalskaya, i.e. she had some management skills. Catherine II knew how to select smart people for leadership positions. Nicholas I himself was a very smart guy. The talk about his narrow-mindedness is mainly due to the fact that he really didn't like the words democracy and liberalism.
            1. +2
              5 August 2025 22: 10
              Quote: TermNachTER
              Nicholas I himself was a very smart uncle. The talk about his stupidity comes mainly from the fact that

              The talk about his stupidity came from his inability (and unwillingness) to delegate authority. Nikolai Pavlovich was firmly convinced that he could single-handedly, in manual mode, manage the entire empire. Which kind of casts doubt on your phrase about "not a stupid uncle."
        2. +1
          7 August 2025 09: 54
          Of all the Russian battleships, Rostislav was the most terrifying! Cut down to the limit, it sat 97 cm deeper, so that the belt was completely 28 cm under water, and this was at a normal draft, and if it had fallen into the caring hands of Rozhdestvensky, then his upper belt would have gone under water, and it is still unknown whether it would have reached Tsushima or drowned on the way!

          The armor was much inferior to the Peresvets, and it was an outdated type. The ends were bare, the conning tower was weak. The speed was also lower than the others.

          Rostislav was a ship for numbers, but not for battle!
          1. -1
            7 August 2025 10: 31
            It was meant that it would be in the Far East before the war. How is its armor worse than the Peresvet? Its speed is like the Poltavas' - no more is needed.
    2. +2
      5 August 2025 12: 26
      Quote: TermNachTER
      So much has been written that it can be said in a couple of sentences)

      But it's better to remain silent
      Quote: TermNachTER
      The Pobeda-class fast battleships were built for cruising in the ocean, not for battle in a line against squadron battleships.

      Incorrect. They were built in lines specifically for battle, against German battleships.
      Quote: TermNachTER
      Armor protection is sacrificed for speed and range.

      Incorrect. It wasn't.
      1. +2
        5 August 2025 12: 40
        Let me ask you something, Andrey.
        If the Peresvet trio was being built against the Kaiser's fleet, then why was it supposed to have such a large fuel reserve?
        I assume that the 10-inch caliber was chosen against the 24-cm German guns. What to do against the 28-cm?
        1. +4
          5 August 2025 15: 48
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          If the Peresvet trio was being built against the Kaiser's fleet, then why was it supposed to have such a large fuel reserve?

          Large fuel reserves to threaten British trade. And the turret armament and not as bad as is commonly believed, armor for possible opposition to the growing Kaiser's fleet.
          In general, it turned out to be a compromise.
          Quote: Victor Leningradets
          What to do against 28 cm?

          Those that were on the Brandenburgs, in principle, were not particularly superior to our 10". And the next generation of battleships with such a main battery began to be built only in 1901.
          280mm was greatly increased when their length was increased to 45 calibers, and this is already the "Nassau" and "Von der Tan"
          1. +2
            5 August 2025 16: 58
            So against Germany or against England - it's somehow unclear. Or against both at once? Against Germany, 2000 miles of cruising range is enough, but normal armor and main battery.
            What kind of artillery duel can there be with the Brandenburg if it has a 400 mm armor belt?
            and his "weak" 120 mm gun penetrated 160 mm of armor?
            1. +4
              5 August 2025 17: 41
              Quote: TermNachTER
              So, against Germany or against England - it’s somehow unclear.

              There are two equally probable opponents. Against one, one kind of ship is needed, against the other, another. And since the budget is not unlimited, a compromise had to be made.
              Quote: TermNachTER
              What kind of artillery duel can there be with the Brandenburg if it has a 400 mm armor belt?

              Long and narrow. Specifically, the Brandenburg has steel-iron armor.
              Peresvetov already has Harvey
              Quote: TermNachTER
              and his "weak" 120 mm gun penetrated 160 mm of armor?

              1) cut down the sturgeon. Even 40-caliber guns shot at a maximum of 80))) there is nothing to say about 35-caliber guns
              2) remember the low rate of fire.
              3) and don’t forget about the lack of high-explosive shells and the fact that armor-piercing shells were most likely simple blanks at that time.
              4) Add any medium caliber and it becomes clear that it is better not to meet the "Brandenburgs" with the "Peresvets".
              1. +1
                5 August 2025 18: 26
                1. If you design against two opponents at once, as a rule, you end up with no one in particular.
                2. The first two have a compound, the 3rd and 4th already have nickel cementation.
                3. Information taken from NavWeaps, their information is always accurate. Firing range is 15 m. And there are six of these guns in a broadside, versus 900 for the Peresvet, and if two against two, then 4 against 12. I do not argue that 8 4 mm. is worse than 105 - 5 mm., but I would not say that it is catastrophic. So, it is not worth talking about the unequivocal advantage of the Peresvet.
                1. +3
                  5 August 2025 19: 26
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  Firing range 15 m.

                  This is exactly 85 cables.
                  What did you write?
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  "weak" gun for 120 cab

                  Moreover, the data is for 40 caliber. The 35 has less anyway.
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  And there are six of these guns

                  With no rate of fire
                  On the Brandenburg-class battleships, ammunition was supplied in a rather primitive manner. It was lifted from the magazine located in the underwater part of the ship via a vertical armored elevator to the deck located below the gun platform rotating together with the turret, and there inside the barbette it was transported on a special cart to the place where the elevator to the turret was located, which supplied it to the loading line.
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  I don't argue that 4 105 mm is worse than 5 152 mm, but I wouldn't say it's catastrophic.

                  Well, yes. Five 152\45 guns and four 105\35 with approximately the same practical rate of fire, but the first one shoots shells weighing 41 kg, and the second one only 18. Despite the fact that the more modern gun has a higher accuracy.
                  Of course, nothing catastrophic...
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  So, it is not worth talking about the clear advantage of Peresvet.

                  That's exactly what it's worth, "Peresvet" is a much more modern and powerful ship.
                2. +3
                  6 August 2025 18: 14
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  3. Information taken from NavWeaps, their information is always accurate.

                  Yeah... Exactly. laughing
                  Would you believe that an armor-piercing 15 cm Pzgr. L/3,7 (m.Hb) with an initial velocity of 960 m/sec at a distance of 3200 m can penetrate 60 mm of either Krupp (which is funny in itself) or homogeneous armor?
                  But they believe in NavWeaps... And not just believe, but even refer to the entire Polish book "German Naval Guns 1939-1945" by Miroslaw Skwiot.
                  At the same time, there are German documents in the public domain, which clearly state in German that at a distance of 10000 m this projectile penetrates 100 mm of KS armor or 120 mm of Wh.
                  And there are plenty of such examples there...
                  1. 0
                    6 August 2025 18: 35
                    Well, everyone makes mistakes. No one is a saint. So where do you get the information?
                    1. +1
                      6 August 2025 19: 30
                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      Well, everyone makes mistakes. No one is a saint.

                      By itself...

                      Quote: TermNachTER
                      Then where to get information?

                      The problem is not where it comes from, the problem is that in any case you need to treat information critically and try to check it, because even a source with "always accurate information" can screw up pretty badly...
      2. +4
        5 August 2025 12: 54
        1. You can remain silent, but then why write?
        2. They said and wrote everywhere that they were "battleships - cruisers", but I hear for the first time that they were built against the Germans))) They began to consider Germany as a potential enemy after the Russian Revolution. And before that, there was friendship and even family relations.
        3. The fact that armor protection is sacrificed for cruising characteristics was already said back then. And even now it is visible to the naked eye.
        1. +3
          5 August 2025 15: 50
          Quote: TermNachTER
          And before that, there was friendship and even family relations.

          This is a misconception. We broke up with the Germans right after the Berlin Congress. Since then there have been periods of cooling and warming, but there has been no friendship.
          And family ties don't play a role in politics.
          1. +1
            5 August 2025 15: 58
            But Germany was not considered as a potential enemy? I don't know if family ties were in effect or not, but they met, visited, in general - communicated. There are even heart-rending photos - Nikolashka in the uniform of a German admiral, and Willy in a Russian one.
            1. +3
              5 August 2025 16: 07
              Quote: TermNachTER
              But Germany was not considered as a potential enemy?

              It was certainly considered.
              Quote: TermNachTER
              There are even some heart-rending photos - Nikolashka in the uniform of a German admiral, and Willie in a Russian one.

              Do you think such images interfered with the war?)))
              1. +1
                5 August 2025 16: 34
                1. I didn’t notice anything about this, including the fact that German coal miners supplied the 2nd TOE.
                2. They didn’t interfere, but family ties are family ties, you can’t get away from them.
                1. +3
                  5 August 2025 16: 53
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  I didn’t notice anything about this, including the fact that German coal miners supplied the 2nd TOE.

                  So this was in 1904. And during the design of the "Peresvets" the first customs war had just ended. Because Germany always perceived Russia only as its unequal partner and was very offended when it tried to protect its market with tariffs.
                  In fact, Wilhelm ascended the throne in 1888, and during his reign the vector of his foreign policy changed approximately every couple of years. That is why his proposal in Björkö was politely ignored. He was not a reliable partner. request
                2. +3
                  6 August 2025 11: 30
                  Quote: TermNachTER
                  1. I didn’t notice anything about this, including the fact that German coal miners supplied the 2nd TOE.

                  But you shouldn’t confuse personal wool with state wool. smile

                  If you look at who sold what to whom, then during the times of the Russian Revolutionary War, you could even paint Britain as an ally - for the rangefinders.
                  1. 0
                    6 August 2025 11: 48
                    Well, that's the usual practice, the capitalist sells to whoever is willing to pay. I read somewhere that shortly before the RYA, Barr and Strud offered Russia their new rangefinder with a 6ft base because the Royal Navy didn't want to buy it. That doesn't mean they are allies.
                    1. +2
                      6 August 2025 13: 25
                      Well, the Germans also followed Dunning's postulate about the percentage of profit at which capital becomes bold. smile
                      1. -2
                        6 August 2025 14: 44
                        So I say that at that moment, Germany was not considered as a potential enemy. Yes, there were problems in politics and trade (and when were there not?) But, Germany began to be considered as an enemy after Russia joined the Entente.
                      2. +2
                        6 August 2025 16: 43
                        No, in the 1880s and 1890s, Germany and Sweden were considered the potential adversaries in the Baltic.
      3. +3
        5 August 2025 16: 57
        It was precisely for battle that they were built in lines, against the German battleships.

        Andrey, where did you read about this? I have not come across such information.
        Archival documents speak of the construction of Peresvets for the Far East.
        1. +1
          5 August 2025 17: 01
          It was called the "Strengthening Program for the Far East".
          1. +3
            5 August 2025 17: 42
            Peresvets began to be built in 1895. And the program for the needs of the Far East was adopted in 1898.
            1. +1
              5 August 2025 18: 30
              If my sclerosis doesn’t fail me, this is already the second strengthening program, and the first was adopted in 95 or 96.
              1. +3
                5 August 2025 19: 14
                No. These are different programs. The 1895 program, although it did contain a certain number of ships for the Far East, was directed against Germany.
                1. 0
                  5 August 2025 19: 16
                  Sorry, I made a mistake when converting meters to cables. 160 mm. it penetrated at 65 cables. In general, it is enough for "Peresvet". From 40 - 45 cables it will penetrate everywhere.
                  1. +3
                    5 August 2025 19: 29
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    160 mm. he punched on 65 cab.

                    Have they ever demonstrated this in practice? Unless, of course, we are talking about steel-iron armor.
                    Quote: TermNachTER
                    From 40 to 45 the cable will break through everywhere.

                    GBP is very unlikely. Upper belt is possible, but considering the absence of BB... well, screw it.
                    1. 0
                      5 August 2025 22: 55
                      The projectile weighs 240 kg, even without explosives.
                      1. +1
                        6 August 2025 11: 23
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The projectile weighs 240 kg, even without explosives.

                        So what?
                        By the way, have you thought about how they will aim?
                      2. 0
                        6 August 2025 11: 46
                        And how will the Peresvet be sighted in? Do you think that the Germans didn't have a PUAO at all?
                      3. +1
                        6 August 2025 11: 48
                        In those days, only medium calibers were used for sighting.
                        152 mm is suitable for this purpose. 105 is not.
                        Even 120 isn't very good.
                      4. -1
                        6 August 2025 11: 51
                        Well, then the main guns would have been sighted in. With the same, medium turret.
                        Do you think the Germans haven't thought this through?
                      5. +2
                        6 August 2025 16: 10
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Well, that means the GC would have been zeroed in.

                        At a rate of fire, God willing, a shot in five minutes?
                        Good luck.
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Do you think the Germans haven't thought this through?

                        Do you think that unsuccessful ships were built only in Russia?
                        This is their first squadron battleship. So it is not surprising that it turned out to be a technical oxymoron.
                      6. -1
                        6 August 2025 16: 43
                        Well, what about the Saxe-class battleships? They don't count?
                      7. +1
                        6 August 2025 21: 50
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        Well, what about the Saxe-class battleships? They don't count?

                        Do you understand the difference between a squadron battleship and a coastal defense battleship?
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        6 guns 280 mm

                        With different barrel lengths, no rate of fire, blanks instead of projectiles.
                        Take care, let's waltz!
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        There is always a possibility of getting seriously injured.

                        Are you sure the shells were steel?
                      8. -1
                        6 August 2025 22: 02
                        I don't know, but making new-model shells is not such a big problem. Especially for German science and industry.
                      9. +2
                        6 August 2025 16: 40
                        When this battleship was designed, it was assumed that the combat distance would be no more than two miles, and then the sighting is not particularly important, "pistol range". And yes, "Peresvet" will tear this German apart like a dog, with the appropriate training of the crew, of course.
                      10. -3
                        6 August 2025 16: 44
                        I wouldn't be so sure. 6 280mm guns against not the most powerful armor. There is always a chance of getting seriously damaged.
                      11. +2
                        6 August 2025 16: 52
                        No, it won't. First, it'll fire 10-inch guns from a distance, and then, when it gets closer, it'll bombard you with a hail of 6-inch and 3-inch guns. The Germans don't have a chance, the ships are of different generations.
                      12. -2
                        6 August 2025 17: 43
                        One successful hit can decide everything. The failure of two engine rooms or boiler rooms and that's it. In order for 254 mm. to penetrate the belt or turrets, you need to approach to 20 cables. At such a distance, the German 280 mm. penetrates the armor protection of the Peresvet everywhere.
                      13. 0
                        6 August 2025 17: 50
                        Our battleships had neither belts nor turrets penetrated at Tsushima, so what?)) And the advantage of rapid-fire artillery over non-rapid-fire artillery was demonstrated at the Battle of Yalu. The Germans had NON-rapid-fire artillery.
                      14. -1
                        6 August 2025 17: 53
                        And how many Chinese battleships sank at Yalu? I won't even mention the level of training of Chinese officers and sailors, it simply didn't exist.
                      15. +2
                        6 August 2025 17: 59
                        A counter question for the especially gifted - how many battleships did the Japanese have at Yalu?)) Because the Peresvet, although weakened, is still a battleship. And the Japanese cruisers did not have effective guns higher than 6 inches, so they were unable to finish off the Chinese. And if they had at least modern 8-inch guns, these battleships would have gone to feed the fish.
                      16. +3
                        6 August 2025 18: 06
                        And yes, in addition, going into battle relying on the so-called "golden bullet" is, well, so-so, to put it mildly.
                      17. -2
                        6 August 2025 18: 28
                        Well, by the time the Peresvets entered service, the Germans already had five Kaiser Friedrich IIIs, which were in no way inferior to the Peresvets. And regarding the "golden bullet", there is an excellent example - the Hood. If we design our ships based on the fact that the enemy's commanders are idiots and the gunners are cross-eyed, then this is exactly about the Peresvets)
                      18. +1
                        6 August 2025 20: 25
                        Well, it's worse than I thought, and you still position yourself as an "expert in the history of the Navy",)) "Hood is just an exception to the rule, all the other battleships both in WWI and in WWII took a lot of hits before sinking, especially the battleships of the RYA era. And yes, the Kaisers were built at the same time as the Peresvets, so ours simply could not yet know their true performance characteristics.
                      19. -1
                        6 August 2025 21: 34
                        I don't claim to be an expert, I'm a person interested in naval history, but mostly WWII. Exceptions to the rule emphasize the rule. A bunch of hits? How many hits were there on the Invincible? How many on the Queen Mary?
                        Our people could know, there was no such secrecy back then and the performance characteristics of ships under construction were published in newspapers. So, the point of the article is not so much in the disgusting quality of the Oslyabya assembly, but in the disgusting project as a whole. The RIF had all sorts of ships, but such bad ones, you have to strain your memory well.
                      20. +1
                        6 August 2025 21: 38
                        And "Queen Mary" and especially "Invisible" - battleships? That's a revelation.)) Yes, you are right about one thing, you really are not an expert, you are not even close. With this I take my leave, I have no desire to argue with a talentless person.
                      21. +3
                        6 August 2025 21: 59
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        five "Kaiser Friedrich III", which were in no way inferior to the "Peresvets".

                        I understand that you are a communist, but fear God!))
                      22. -1
                        6 August 2025 22: 04
                        I didn't manage to become a communist, although I was offered to join the Army, only a Komsomol member. What's wrong with "Kaisers" compared to "Peresvets"?
                      23. +1
                        7 August 2025 10: 01
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        What's wrong with "Kaisers"

                        1) Poor main caliber.
                        2) Unsuccessful armor scheme. In the sense that the armor is already cemented, but the designers for some reason made a thick and narrow belt, as if it were steel-iron.
                        3) Weak cars (12000 hp versus 15000) and correspondingly lower speed.
                        4) Small coal reserves (650 tons)
                        The German battleship is, in principle, the same result of a compromise as the Peresvets, they just have different requirements.
                      24. -1
                        7 August 2025 10: 37
                        1. The wretched main gun for the Peresvets was quite sufficient + 18 pcs. 150 mm.
                        2. I don't know how bad it is, but the 150mm guns are covered with quite normal 150mm armor. The armor of the turrets and the wheelhouse is also better.
                        3. Weak machines gave a completely normal 17 knots, just a little less than the "Peresvets".
                        4. Why does he need an ocean range in the Baltic?
                        Overall, it is no worse than "Peresvet", well, with its "quirks".
                      25. +1
                        7 August 2025 17: 36
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        The wretched GK was quite enough for the Peresvets

                        140 kg of armor-piercing blank and a high-explosive shell with 2 kg of explosive?
                        Oh well...
                      26. 0
                        7 August 2025 17: 51
                        And 9 150-mm. in a broadside, we don't count anymore? Considering that they are protected much better than 5 of the same on the "Peresvet". And in general the German is better armored.
                      27. +1
                        7 August 2025 18: 04
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        9 150 mm in a broadside salvo

                        Usually, a little less)
                        They positioned themselves in such a clever way to concentrate fire on the course angles that they could only participate in a broadside salvo in a very narrow sector.
                        But, yes. The battery is very powerful. Any light cruiser would be immediately kicked. But for battleships, something more substantial is needed.
                      28. 0
                        17 August 2025 18: 00
                        For 1895, Peresvet was far from the worst project with a very common armor scheme for that time.
                        By the time of the RYaV, with the advent of battleships with a continuous armor belt, the VL began to become obsolete, but this is called technical progress.
                      29. 0
                        17 August 2025 18: 38
                        The Peresvet project was bad in 1895 and 1904-05. Progress has not gone that far in 10 years. There is no point in even taking this project apart, whatever you do, it is stupid.
                      30. 0
                        17 August 2025 18: 40
                        P.S. They shouldn't have been built at all, they should have been built "Poltavas", or at worst a modified "Rostislav".
                      31. +1
                        6 August 2025 21: 54
                        Quote: TermNachTER
                        At such a distance, the German 280 mm penetrates the armor protection of the Peresvet everywhere.

                        Why the hell?!
                      32. -1
                        6 August 2025 21: 59
                        With 20 cab., those that are 280/40 everywhere or are there other opinions?
    3. +3
      5 August 2025 16: 17
      Quote: TermNachTER
      So much has been written that it can be said in a couple of sentences) the high-speed battleships of the Pobeda type were built for cruising in the ocean, and not for battle in a line against squadron battleships.

      So there is eternal confusion with the "Peresvetichs". They were laid down as cruisers, then they became EBMs, and in WWI "Peresvet" again returned to the cruiser class.
      ...based on the report of the above-mentioned drawings, His Imperial Majesty the Sovereign Emperor received the Highest permission to build two armored cruisers, each 12674 tons.
      1. +1
        5 August 2025 16: 35
        That's the point, they laid it down for no one knows why. And the war turned out completely wrong and not where they intended)
        1. +1
          5 August 2025 16: 37
          P.S. RIF received many strange, to put it mildly, ships. But these are probably the most unsuccessful, practically by all parameters. And whoever signed these drawings for construction - I don't understand at all what he was thinking.
          1. +2
            5 August 2025 22: 20
            Quote: TermNachTER
            And whoever signed these construction drawings - I don’t understand at all what he was thinking.

            We dreamed of raiders, but it turned out "as always". laughing
  4. +2
    5 August 2025 11: 45
    Regarding "armor can't burn" - what about the wooden base underneath it?
  5. +1
    5 August 2025 14: 42
    a couple of years ago I read (I don't remember the author anymore) a similarly detailed analysis of Oslyaba on the topic of how the trim and capsize occurred because the water from the fire extinguishing systems did not go down, but accumulated on the upper decks due to the fact that the scuppers and other drain holes were closed or clogged... I feel very sorry for the people in the hold crew - who most likely died a long and painful death already at the bottom of the sea (unless, of course, they were killed by the explosion of the boilers, or by the same boilers and machines that fell off the foundations when they went to the bottom).... I wonder - has anyone examined the remains of Oslyaba at the bottom?
    1. +1
      5 August 2025 23: 52
      Quote: eugen_caro
      I wonder - has anyone examined Oslyabya's remains at the bottom?

      No, no one has examined it. And they say the Japanese don't let anyone in there because the area is strategic and there is equipment there to track our submarines.
  6. +4
    5 August 2025 16: 54
    Andrei, good afternoon!
    Thanks for continuing. But I can't agree with the conclusions.

    In order to recreate the picture of the death of the Oslyabya with any degree of reliability, it is necessary to understand which of its compartments were flooded.

    Unfortunately, it is no longer possible to obtain an exact list of all the compartments. And it is impossible to count the exact number of hits. There are no people left who could tell about this. I have not found a single letter or recollection from those who were in the KO or MO during the battle.

    M. V. Ozerov made an obvious reservation here

    That's right. Right and left are regularly confused in sources. And not only Russian ones.
    his testimony cannot at all indicate that he got into the 2nd coal pit on the left side

    Ozerov clearly indicated the place where he saw the fire, and that was where the 2nd upper coal pit was located.
    since there was no upper armor belt there

    This is a feature of the Peresvet armor that Ozerov did not take into account. Most other battleships, including the Sisoy, had plates there.

    But on the other hand, the upper coal pit was not protected by armor.

    Why didn't you defend yourself? The main belt was there.

    Obviously, something that doesn't exist can't fall off.

    The hold sailors came to patch up the hole and saw a huge breach the size of a gate. So they assumed that the plate had fallen off. The plate of the upper belt was exactly 4,4 meters long. They might not have known that there was no plate outside. Moreover, there was a "pocket" there, limited by armor on three sides, and the hole could have smooth edges, suggesting that the plate had fallen off.

    For example, V. P. Kostenko holds this opinion.

    Kostenko is a secondary source who clearly used Boltyshev as a primary source.

    M.P. Sablin ... does not report anything about its damage

    Seal of the holes was not Sablin's job description. He told about what he heard.

    Under such conditions, Zmachinsky obviously had to inform M.P. Sablin about the presence of a hole in the 2nd coal pit, but nothing like that happens.

    Most likely Zmachinsky ran past all in a lather and exchanged a few phrases with Sablin. And you are already drawing conclusions)))

    refers to the 10th coal pit, not the 2nd.

    The holes in the 2nd and 10th holes had different natures of damage to the side and the struggle for survivability was conducted differently in them - they cannot be the same hit.

    S.V. Gorchakov himself did not see this hole, but heard about it from third parties.

    But he saw the consequences of this breach.

    but we know nothing about the flooding of the 3rd boiler room, opposite which the 16th coal pit and the spare powder chamber were located

    But water gushed onto the living deck through the bulging bulkhead of coal pit 16. This clearly indicates the presence of a hole in coal pit 16.

    That's it! The water didn't go anywhere anymore.

    Why are you comparing two completely different situations? Better compare it with the "Eagle", which didn't seem to have any underwater holes, but everything inside was in water.

    But no, the water continues to flow, straight into the boiler room.

    You present this as a fact, but in reality there could have been many options. For example, the water was deliberately released down and pumped out, as Zavarin did.

    And it flows so intensely

    Andrey, stop!

    in "Oslyabya" it calmly spreads not even to the second, but to the third compartment from the one that received damage

    Andrey, your train of thought is truly amazing. Wouldn't it be more logical to admit the presence of a hole in the 2nd coal pit than to explain the water penetration through several watertight bulkheads in a row?

    Because then it turns out that at Oslyabya neither the slope nor the lower coal pits were able to limit the flow of water in two cases out of two

    No, it doesn't work! For example, we can take the example of the "Eagle" again, where someone from the crew released the water splashing on the gun deck into the upper side corridor, which caused a list. Then this water was lowered down and pumped out. Now you will ask yourself: does this mean that the water is freely spreading throughout the compartments of the "Eagle"?

    water leakage from the 10th coal pit into the spare powder chamber no longer seems like something completely impossible

    In the case of the sinking of the Oslyabya, there is not a single case of water penetration through undamaged bulkheads confirmed by witnesses.

    in the ammunition cellar in the immediate vicinity of the 10th coal pit

    Excluded. The shell cellar was inside the coal pit. And between the pit and the side there was another corridor.

    passed behind the armor and exploded immediately behind it, causing the plate or its main part to simply break off with the impact and its fragments to fall overboard

    There were many hits during the RYAV, but nothing even remotely similar was observed.

    Prince S.V. Gorchakov simply confused the 16th and 10th coal pits in his memoirs

    Gorchakov could not have made a mistake. The dressing station had the 16th coal pit, not the 10th.

    which is extremely strange

    Why is it strange? The fire-holding division was almost completely wiped out very quickly. Lebedev describes this well in his memoirs.

    the ship's starboard crew was not occupied at the guns

    It was used to replace the dead and wounded at the left-hand guns and also suffered heavy losses. In addition, it was not trained to seal holes. Note that none of those who led the fight for survivability survived. Not Pokhvsitnev, not Uspensky, not Zmachinsky.

    Firstly, this hole appeared almost at the moment the Oslyabya was out of action, when the ship already had a strong list and trim and was doomed.

    Andrey, don't confuse cause and effect! The strong list and trim arose precisely because of this hole. When the ship was "sitting up to the hawse holes" and had a list of about 12%, the shell could not have hit the place Lebedev wrote about. And Lebedev himself could not have been nearby, in the 1st compartment - the compartment would have been completely flooded.
    1. +1
      5 August 2025 21: 24
      Alexey, I'll answer in detail later. On the road
    2. +2
      7 August 2025 11: 36
      Good morning!
      Alexey, I am currently in the process of moving, there are problems with both time and the Internet, so I have to be brief
      Quote: rytik32
      Right and left are regularly confused in sources. And not only Russian ones.
      his testimony cannot at all indicate that he got into the 2nd coal pit on the left side

      The whole point here is that according to Ozerov the list was to one side, and the hole was to the other. He could have confused left and right, no problem, but he could also have confused the side of the hole...
      Quote: rytik32
      Kostenko is a secondary source who clearly used Boltyshev as a primary source.

      True. Or he himself communicated with those sailors. The point is that Boltyshev himself is a secondary source, and if Kostenko made different conclusions, it is possible
      Quote: rytik32
      Seal of the holes was not Sablin's job description. He told about what he heard.

      Naturally. But he talked about a number of holes, and in theory there was no way he could have been unaware of the hit in the 2nd coal.
      Quote: rytik32
      Most likely Zmachinsky ran past all in a lather and exchanged a few phrases with Sablin. And you are already drawing conclusions)))

      There was a small meeting of three. But if you were right, it is extremely strange that Zmachinsky reports a hole in the 10th coal, which he himself did not see, but does not report a hole in the 2nd, which he just tried to repair.
      Quote: rytik32
      The holes in the 2nd and 10th holes had different natures of damage to the side and the struggle for survivability was conducted differently in them - they cannot be the same hit.

      Alexey, where did you get such conclusions?:))) You took the damage to the 2nd coal from Boltyshev, and your conclusions directly contradict him - he talked about armor, you refute him. The nature of the damage to the 2nd coal is your theory, not a fact, so let's consider it as a hypothesis.
      Quote: rytik32
      You present this as a fact, but in reality there could have been many options. For example, the water was deliberately released down and pumped out, as Zavarin did.

      In the 1st and 2nd boiler rooms there is nowhere to get water. No one would drain it from the coal pits - it would go down into the hold by itself. Zavarin is a different story, he drained water from "his" compartment down
      Quote: rytik32
      Andrey, your train of thought is truly amazing. Wouldn't it be more logical to admit the presence of a hole in the 2nd coal pit than to explain the water penetration through several watertight bulkheads in a row?

      It's not more logical. Nevertheless, I recognized this possibility.
      But even if we assume that I am wrong and that the water entered the 1st boiler house not from the 10th, but from the flooded 2nd coal pit, it does not become any easier. Because then it turns out that at Oslyabya neither the slope nor the lower coal pits were able to limit the water flow in two cases out of two.

      That is, we have damage to the upper pit from which water reached the boiler rooms. This is precisely what testifies to the fact that the water in Oslyaba was spreading uncontrollably.
      Quote: rytik32
      No, it doesn't work! For example, we can again take the example of the "Eagle", where one of the crew released the water splashing on the gun deck into the upper side corridor, which caused a list.

      But let's remember where the water came from at the battery. It will immediately become clear that such a scenario could not have happened at "Oslyaba". Well, the Oslyaba residents did not have time to form such a "puddle", trivially, the timing does not cope. I am not even talking about the lack of evidence of the appearance of water at the battery.
      Quote: rytik32
      Excluded. The shell cellar was inside the coal pit. And between the pit and the side there was another corridor.

      What is excluded? This ammunition cellar could have leaked, they transmitted about 10-dm by mistake
      Quote: rytik32
      There were many hits during the RYAV, but nothing even remotely similar was observed.

      Poor ship construction? Poor armor? But the thing is that the hole in the 10th could have been normal, and "gate" is a description of a hit in the bow, opposite the 1st compartment.
      Quote: rytik32
      Andrey, don't confuse cause and effect! The strong list and trim arose precisely because of this hole.

      Exactly - no, the rapidly increasing list was recorded before this hit.
      Quote: rytik32
      When the ship was “sitting right up to its hawse holes” and had a list of about 12%, the shell could not have hit the place that Lebedev wrote about.

      It could. It's just that by waterline I didn't mean the waterline before the battle, but the waterline at the moment of impact.
      1. 0
        7 August 2025 12: 48
        and in theory there was no way he could have been unaware of being in the 2nd coal

        Sablin doesn't write anything about hitting the 2nd compartment of the living deck either. So, there's no need to be surprised...
        There was a small meeting of three.

        But perhaps Sablin simply joined the conversation between Zmachinsky and Uspensky. Sablin's presence at such a meeting is not at all necessary.
        Zmachinsky reports a hole in the 10th coal mine

        Is Sablin sure he has this?
        The nature of the damage to the 2nd coal is your theory, not a fact.

        In the sources: in one case "it broke through the armor", and in the second "the plate fell off". Completely different descriptions!
        In the 1st-2nd stoker water

        The turbines take water from the hold, not from the stokeholds.
        No one would have let it out of the coal pits

        Why? They could have let the water out so that it wouldn't interfere with patching the hole.
        water reached the boiler rooms

        The water reached the hold, not the KO!
        There are many options for how she could have been lowered into the hold.
        It will immediately become clear that such a scenario could not have happened on Oslyaba.

        The question is not where the water on the gun deck came from, but that draining excess water into the hold was a common practice at that time. And the presence of water in the hold does not mean that the water freely got there through leaky bulkheads.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        This ammunition cellar could have leaked, by mistake they transmitted about 10-dm
        By the way, there is a mention in one source of a hole in a spare 6-inch cellar, not 10-inch. But I am of the opinion that this is an error in the caliber.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        and "gate" is a description of the hit in the nose, opposite the 1st compartment
        Boltyshev further wrote that water flowed into the forward magazines through the ventilation pipes torn off by the new shell on the deck slope. This once again leaves no options for localizing the hole. The forward magazines were right under the 2nd coal pit.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        a rapidly increasing list was recorded before this hit

        I don't argue with that. In my article I even specifically analyzed the time of the tilt's occurrence.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Could.

        The first shell hit the living deck at a height of approximately 1 meters above the deck and up to the ceiling. How could the second shell hit "slightly below" the first, if the water was already "up to the hawse holes" on the battery deck? And how could Lebedev patch up the already underwater hole with an ordinary shield?
        1. +1
          7 August 2025 23: 10
          Quote: rytik32
          Sablin doesn't write anything about hitting the 2nd compartment of the living deck either. So, there's no need to be surprised...

          It is quite possible - at the time of this hit, Sablin was either picking at the dynamo machines, or had already climbed up to the battery deck, which is why he had no news of this hit. And even if he had - I repeat, it would not have decided anything.
          Quote: rytik32
          But perhaps Sablin simply joined the conversation between Zmachinsky and Uspensky. Sablin's presence at such a meeting is not at all necessary.

          After a hole in the coal pit and spare magazine
          the roll began to increase sharply. I spoke about this
          about the hold mechanic and the ship's engineer
          Zmachinsky. The ship's engineer found that this list
          This cannot be allowed.

          That is, there was a conversation, not on the run.
          Quote: rytik32
          Is Sablin sure he has this?

          Sablin doesn't have this. But how else would Sablin know about damage in the area of the 10th coal pit?
          Quote: rytik32
          In the sources: in one case "it broke through the armor", and in the second "the plate fell off". Completely different descriptions!

          Of course. But, firstly, certain deviations among eyewitnesses are more than possible. If we go into pedantry, then Gorchakov's phrase
          I began to notice an increasing list, which was initially caused by underwater holes

          In general, this transfers his testimony into the category of completely unreliable and not worthy of trust, since Oslyabya had no underwater holes.
          And secondly, it was not for nothing that I once posted a collection of testimonies about Oslyabya’s death from the outside
          https://topwar.ru/263751-o-dostovernosti-svidetelstv-ochevidcev-na-primere-jeskadrennogo-bronenosca-osljabja-v-cusimskom-srazhenii.html
          "Lies like an eyewitness" - the proverb did not appear out of nowhere. And here we need to look and analyze. Then it will be clear that the testimonies you cite still have something in common - a hit on an armor plate. The consequences - yes, they differ, but there is a commonality. But you accuse this commonality of being invalid
          Quote: rytik32
          The turbines take water from the hold, not from the stokeholds.

          You yourself write
          M. P. Sablin turned on the 4th and 6th turbines to remove water coming from the coal pits through the inevitable leaks in the doors into the holds of the 1st and 2nd boiler rooms (see diagrams No. 4, 5 and 6).

          So you yourself at least allowed for such a version.
          Quote: rytik32
          Why? They could have let the water out so that it wouldn't interfere with patching the hole.

          Impossible - because it is pointless. The damage is at the level of the upper coal pit - the water flows into the lower one, so draining the water from the lower one into the hold will not help anything.
          Quote: rytik32
          The water reached the hold, not the KO!
          There are many options for how she could have been lowered into the hold.

          So far I don’t see a single one - except for the one I described in the article.
          Quote: rytik32
          The question is not where the water on the gun deck came from, but that draining excess water into the hold was a common practice at the time.

          No. At the very least, in order to drain water into the hold, you need to have something to drain and a purpose for the drain. I am not aware of any cases of draining water into the hold from coal pits; usually the water was blocked there and left, leveling the ship with counter-flooding.
          Quote: rytik32
          And the presence of water in the hold does not mean that the water freely got there through leaky bulkheads.

          And there is nowhere else for water to come from.
          Quote: rytik32
          By the way, there is a mention in one source of a hole in a spare 6-inch cellar, not 10-inch. But I am of the opinion that this is an error in the caliber.

          Anything is possible - we still have hypotheses
          Quote: rytik32
          Boltyshev further wrote that water flowed into the forward magazines through the ventilation pipes torn off by the new shell on the deck slope. This once again leaves no options for localizing the hole. The forward magazines were right under the 2nd coal pit.

          So this is a new shell, it is unknown when it hit. Or do you want to say that 3 shells hit the same coal pit? :) Boltyshev spoke from hearsay, it could have been anything: for example, was this information about the bow magazine for the main gun?
          Quote: rytik32
          The first shell hit the living deck at a height of approximately 1 meters above the deck and up to the ceiling. How could the second shell hit "slightly below" the first if the water was already "up to the hawse holes" on the gun deck?

          Yes, it's easy - "up to the hawse holes" - this is most likely when the stem went so far that the gun deck on it was at sea level. Then, without a list, the lower edges of the hawse holes were about 40 centimeters above the water, taking into account the list - one below. That is, sitting up to the hawse holes, the waterline of the ship passed below the gun deck along the entire length of the ship.
          Quote: rytik32
          And how could Lebedev seal the already underwater hole with an ordinary shield?

          Waist-deep in water, of course - it was semi-submerged
          1. 0
            8 August 2025 01: 37
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            At the time of this hit, Sablin was either picking at the dynamo machines or had already climbed up to the battery deck, which is why he had no news of this hit.

            And at the moment of hitting the 2nd coal pit, Sablin was in the 1st compartment of the living deck, so he did not hear about the hit.
            That is, there was a conversation, not on the run.

            From this text it is impossible to even determine whether the conversation was between three or two separately, let alone on the run or not.
            But how else would Sablin have found out about the damage in the area of the 10th coal pit?
            There are many options. At least from the sailors who discovered the hole and reported it to the management.
            makes his testimony completely unreliable

            With this approach, absolutely all evidence can be relegated to the category of unreliable. Doesn't Sablin have any mistakes and contradictions?
            because Oslyabya had no underwater holes

            Firstly, no one inspected the underwater part to guarantee that there were no underwater holes.
            Secondly, after half an hour of fighting, some of the holes could well have become underwater.
            water flows down to the bottom

            Or the water is deliberately drained into the lower...
            There is a corridor between the pit and the side. Water can also be drained from it into the hold.
            I don't see any yet - except for the one I described in the article

            I gave you two more options.
            I can also name...
            I am not aware of any cases of water being released into the hold from coal pits.

            But there are examples of water being drained from the side corridors! Should we stick with this version?
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            So this is already a new projectile.

            Yes, that's exactly how it's written!
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            that 3 shells hit the same coal pit?

            There is nothing fantastic about this.
            information about the bow magazine for the gun

            According to Sablin, that cellar had been flooded for a long time and there could not have been people there.
            That is, sitting up to the hawse holes, the ship's waterline ran below the gun deck along the entire length of the ship.

            At least look at the diagram to see where the hawse holes are located...
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Waist-deep in water, of course - it was semi-submerged

            The shields and bunks could not withstand the pressure of the water. Completely different technologies are used to seal underwater holes...
            1. 0
              8 August 2025 09: 59
              Quote: rytik32
              And at the moment of hitting the 2nd coal pit, Sablin was in the 1st compartment of the living deck, so he did not hear about the hit.

              Judging by the effect of the first hit, he should have heard it when he was returning from there. But the main question is why he was not aware of this hit after talking to Zmachinsky.
              Quote: rytik32
              From this text it is impossible to even determine whether the conversation was between three or two separately, let alone on the run or not.

              Everything is possible. However, the point is that Sablin talked to them specifically about counter-flooding and in this situation, after talking with Zmachinsky, not finding out about water entering the 2nd coal pit is extremely strange and does not seem to be true.
              Quote: rytik32
              There are many options. At least from the sailors who discovered the hole and reported it to the management.

              It may well be that Sablin found out about the hole in the 10th before talking with Zmachinsky, I don’t argue.
              Quote: rytik32
              With this approach, absolutely all evidence can be relegated to the category of unreliable. Doesn't Sablin have any mistakes and contradictions?

              Of course. That's why I'm telling you that
              Quote: rytik32
              In the sources: in one case "it broke through the armor", and in the second "the plate fell off". Completely different descriptions!

              may well be descriptions of one event. But you postulate a much more serious contradiction - that both descriptions are false, both in that the shell hit the armor at all and in its impact on it.
              Quote: rytik32
              Firstly, no one inspected the underwater part to guarantee that there were no underwater holes.

              Moreover, Gorchakov could not have known about this.
              Quote: rytik32
              Secondly, after half an hour of fighting, some of the holes could well have become underwater.

              And secondly, Gorchakov could have called the holes into which water was poured underwater. Which is what I am writing to you about - eyewitnesses' assessments are inaccurate, so "pierced the armor"/"broke out the plate" are within the limits of what is acceptable for describing the same hit.
              Quote: rytik32
              There is a corridor between the pit and the side. Water can also be drained from it into the hold.

              Yes, you can. Why was it necessary to do this in this case?
              Quote: rytik32
              But there are examples of water being drained from the side corridors! Should we stick with this version?

              Alexey, there is some meaning in every action. Look at why they drained water from the side corridors in the examples known to you and ask yourself why they did it on the Oslyaba. I cannot accept the version only on the grounds that it is physically possible, we should proceed from the fact that the crew was solving some problem. And I do not see a problem that could be solved on the battleship by this action.
              Quote: rytik32
              There is nothing fantastic about this.

              Well, actually, there is - the hole is small, and partly went into the water as a result of the list. That is, the terver allows for this, of course, but with a big stretch
              Quote: rytik32
              According to Sablin, that cellar had been flooded for a long time and there could not have been people there.

              It is not a fact - he did not report a complete flooding of the cellar, but only the entry of water into it.
              Quote: rytik32
              At least look at the diagram to see where the hawse holes are located...

              Alexey, you'd better look at the photo of "Oslyabya". Specifically "Oslyabya", not other ships of the series. The rim around the hawse is in the immediate vicinity of the gun deck.
              Quote: rytik32
              The shields and bunks could not withstand the pressure of the water. Completely different technologies are used to seal underwater holes...

              In your case it is underwater. In my case it is at worst semi-underwater, that's one. Secondly, we patched it up with what was at hand - there was no time to look for "other technologies"
              1. 0
                8 August 2025 11: 33
                Judging by the effect of the first hit

                The first hit had that effect only because it was the first.
                why wasn't he aware

                Sablin was aware of three of the seven hits. So it is not surprising that he did not know about some hits. And Sablin wrote his report in such a way that most readers understood that there were only two hits!
                may well be a description of one event

                They can't!
                The hole in the 2nd pit is a huge hole, which amazed the sailors who were trying to seal it with its size; it was even visible from the neighboring ship.
                Sablin wrote modestly about the hole in the 10th coal pit: "the shell hit the 10th coal pit from the left side, penetrating the armor." These descriptions are completely different from each other.
                why was it necessary to do this on "Oslyaba"

                1. Remove water so that it does not interfere with the work of the emergency team.
                2. Reduce the roll.
                By the way, I found an example of pumping water out of a damaged coal pit: "Aurora" in Tsushima. Why you think that they couldn't have acted in exactly the same way on "Oslyaba" is not clear.

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                For me it turns out to be semi-underwater at worst.

                In your diagram, the hole appears to be completely underwater.
                1. +1
                  8 August 2025 12: 17
                  Quote: rytik32
                  The first hit had that effect only because it was the first.

                  No. Because it attracted Sablin's attention with its effect, he went to investigate.
                  Quote: rytik32
                  Sablin was aware of three of the seven hits.

                  This is your hypothesis. Mine is about two out of four.
                  Quote: rytik32
                  They can't!
                  The hole in the 2nd pit is a huge hole, which amazed the sailors who were trying to seal it with its size; it was even visible from the neighboring ship.
                  Sablin wrote modestly about the hole in the 10th coal pit: "the shell hit the 10th coal pit from the left side, penetrating the armor." These descriptions are completely different from each other.

                  They very well may. Firstly, the description of the "gate" is made from secondary sources, which themselves did not see the hole. Here even the effect of the first hit on the residential deck could have been superimposed. Secondly, there is DIRECT evidence that the slab fell exactly at the 1th hole (yes, also from second hands, but - it is there)
                  "Soon after the first shell, the second hit the tenth coal pit, penetrating the armor. According to the crew, the impact of this shell caused a whole sheet of armor to fall off. Water appeared in the left reserve powder magazine of the 10-inch guns, and the list began to increase significantly."

                  And this does not contradict Boltyshev.
                  Thirdly, all the evidence suggests that the gate formed in place of the fallen armor.
                  Quote: rytik32
                  1. Remove water so that it does not interfere with the work of the emergency team.

                  Alexey, this explanation is completely unsuitable. Firstly, it is completely absurd to drain the water that is pouring into the huge hole at the waterline into the hold - it will immediately get into the ship again. Secondly, the water is already leaving the upper coal pit for the lower one.
                  Quote: rytik32
                  2. Reduce the roll.

                  To reduce the list, it is necessary to stop water from entering the ship and correct the list by counter-flooding - which has always been done. And only then does it make sense to drain the water to the turbines in order to pump it out. But draining water from a compartment into which seawater is gushing like a fountain is a slightly suicidal tactic.
                  Quote: rytik32
                  By the way, I found an example of pumping water out of a damaged coal pit: "Aurora" in Tsushima.

                  2nd? Well, it was compensated for by counter-flooding during the battle. And there were shrapnel damages there, which were relatively easy to repair.
                  Quote: rytik32
                  In your diagram, the hole appears to be completely underwater.

                  Alexey, the diagram is schematic, simplified:)))) It is not the result of precise measurements and is not intended for this. And the water level that could be there needs to be calculated
                  1. 0
                    8 August 2025 19: 28
                    Because it attracted Sablin's attention with its effect, he went to investigate

                    Sablin was not there out of curiosity. He was called to fix the electricity. Bachurikhin and Boltyshev write that a Japanese shell cut the cable, and the electricity went out: both the lighting and the rotation of the turret. According to the electrical diagram, everything matches up - the power cable of the spire went right opposite the hole in the 1st compartment. It could have shorted to ground ...
                    It's strange that Sablin didn't write about it, electrics are his area of responsibility. But in the fog of war anything could happen. And you write that he should have known about the hole.
                    the second hit the tenth coal pit, penetrating the armor. According to the team, the impact of this projectile knocked off an entire sheet of armor

                    From this description, the scenario you described in the article is truly completely fantastic. Fantastic because an explosion in the coal pit would have certainly destroyed the bulkhead to the living deck, but would not have torn the plate from its fastenings. Half of the crew that was on the living deck at that moment would have learned about the destroyed bulkhead.
                    And this does not contradict Boltyshev

                    Contradictory. According to Boltyshev, the hole is opposite the conning tower, not the 2nd funnel. And there are forward magazines, not middle ones.
                    Thirdly, all evidence suggests that the gate formed in place of the fallen armor.

                    ... but everyone names a different place )))
                    Firstly, it is completely absurd to drain the water that is pouring into the huge hole at the waterline into the hold - it will immediately get into the ship again

                    If the hole is above water and the water is being washed over by waves, then there is no absurdity.
                    To reduce the list, it is necessary to stop water from entering the ship.

                    Yes, you need to put up a shield, but how can you do that while floating in water? It makes sense to drain the water, doesn't it?
                    and correct the list by counter-flooding - which is what has always been done

                    I wrote about the anti-tilt system project for the Oslyabya. That is, everyone knew perfectly well how long counter-flooding takes, so they did not rely solely on it.
                    And only then does it make sense to drain the water to the turbines to pump it out

                    Fundamentally wrong! The idea was to use turbines to pump out water coming through small holes until a patch was put in place.
                    So during the battle it was compensated by counter-flooding

                    Kravchenko writes that at night.
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    And the water level that could be there needs to be calculated.

                    So everything is in the sources. At first the water was just approaching the edge of the hole in the 1st compartment, and then "Oslyabya" sat down up to the hawse holes.
                    1. +1
                      8 August 2025 21: 43
                      Quote: rytik32
                      Sablin was not there out of curiosity.

                      It is not the cause that is important, but the location. He was there and described very serious and noticeable consequences of the hit. He was there during the hit, which you consider to be the hit in the 2nd hole, but did not notice the consequences.
                      Quote: rytik32
                      From this description, the scenario you described in the article is truly completely fantastic. Fantastic because an explosion in the coal pit would have certainly destroyed the bulkhead to the living deck, but would not have torn the plate from its fastenings. Half of the crew that was on the living deck at that moment would have learned about the destroyed bulkhead.

                      Alexey, you hit the 10th hole:)))))) With armor penetration. Therefore, the essence of your statement is absolutely incomprehensible.
                      Quote: rytik32
                      Contradictory. According to Boltyshev, the hole is opposite the conning tower, not the 2nd funnel. And there are forward magazines, not middle ones.

                      No. Because according to Boltyshev, this is a hole where there is armor, but it was not Boltyshev who assigned it the place opposite the 2nd hole, but you.
                      Quote: rytik32
                      ... but everyone names a different place )))

                      True. You, nevertheless, appointed yours. Boltyshev, I repeat, does not name this place directly.
                      Alexey, there are at least three people - Boltyshev, Kostenko, Durnovo, and all write about a hit to the armor. You alone claim that it was a hit outside the armor, and your entire evidence base is obviously erroneous. Your own interpretation of Ozerov's testimony - since the latter spoke about damage on the opposite side, opposite to the one to which the battleship was listing.
                      Quote: rytik32
                      If the hole is above water and the water is being washed over by waves, then there is no absurdity.

                      Quote: rytik32
                      Yes, you need to put up a shield, but how can you do that while floating in water? It makes sense to drain the water, doesn't it?

                      It's completely illogical.
                      Quote: rytik32
                      Fundamentally wrong! The idea was to use turbines to pump out water coming through small holes until a patch was put in place.

                      That's exactly it. When the hole is small, and when the amount of water that pours in through it is significantly less than the amount of water that drains into the hold, it makes sense. But when you have a hole the size of a gate, which you postulate, then the amount of water entering it is very large, and there is no point in draining it into the hold - there will be no drainage. And this is despite the fact that you constantly ignore the fact that the water from the upper coal pit was already draining into the lower ones.
                      Quote: rytik32
                      Kravchenko writes that at night.

                      Alexey, seriously, make up your mind. You either drained the water into the hold to make room for repairing the holes, or you drained the water and then at night, you started counter-flooding? That is, there was so much water in the coal pit after the drain into the hold that counter-flooding was needed?
                      Quote: rytik32
                      So everything is in the sources.

                      And how much do the sources give the water level opposite the hole in the 2nd compartment of the living deck?
                      1. 0
                        8 August 2025 23: 02
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        but I didn't notice any consequences

                        Sablin was in the 1st compartment, the 2nd UYa belongs to the 3rd compartment. It is far away, so Sablin did not notice the hole in the 2nd UYa.
                        Alexey, it hit the 10th hole:)))))) With armor penetration

                        I completely agree with this.
                        Therefore, the essence of your statement is absolutely incomprehensible.

                        There could not have been a detachment of armor due to a shell explosion in the 10th UYa. Do you agree?

                        According to Boltyshev, this is a hole where there is armor

                        Or rather, where the armor should have been. Actually, no one saw the armor in this place; it was supposedly torn off by several hits. Therefore, I quite reasonably questioned the witnesses' guesses, and not what they saw with their own eyes.
                        Interpretation of Ozerov's testimony

                        Ozerov saw fire bursting out of the side under the forward bridge, that's what I'm taking as a basis. And the fact that there was armor there is Ozerov's guess, not what he saw with his own eyes.
                        then the flow of water into it is very large

                        Originally, it was a hole above the water, into which the waves poured. The turbine could easily cope with such an amount of incoming water.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        and at night, it means, they started counter-flooding?

                        At night we got tired of pumping water out of the pit, closed it and flooded 2 pits on the other side.
                        there was so much water in the coal pit after draining

                        Water was constantly coming in and constantly being pumped out.
                      2. +1
                        9 August 2025 10: 11
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Sablin was in the 1st compartment, the 2nd UYA belongs to the 3rd compartment. It's far away

                        "When we got to the nose compartment, the smoke in the 1st and 2nd nose compartments was so thick that the incandescent light bulbs were completely invisible"...
                        It's very hard not to notice this, being through the compartment and considering that Sablin did return later. It's possible. But it's hard:)
                        Quote: rytik32
                        There could not have been a detachment of armor due to a shell explosion in the 10th UYa. Do you agree?

                        The armor could have been broken off - it is difficult to say whether the shell exploded behind it or while passing through the armor.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Or rather, where the armor should have been. Actually, no one saw the armor in this place; it was supposedly torn off by several hits. Therefore, I quite reasonably questioned the witnesses' guesses, and not what they saw with their own eyes.

                        You have questioned this, yes, but the validity of your position is questionable. I am not saying that your version is completely impossible, no, it is possible. But against the background of a number of testimonies, united by the fact that the hit was in the armor, your interpretation is still unlikely.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Ozerov saw how fire was bursting out of the side under the forward bridge, and this is what I take as a basis.

                        Ozerov saw the fire from the opposite side:))) Alexey, according to your version, it turns out that Ozerov made a mistake twice - not only did he confuse the side to which the ship was listing, but he also confuse that the side on which the fire was on the opposite side. Isn't that too much confusion? I assume that Ozerov made a mistake with the side to which the ship was listing, but correctly named the side on which he saw the fire - the side opposite the list, that is, the right one. This is a much more logical construction, especially considering that at the time of observing the fire, taking into account the list, the 2nd coal tank did not protrude above the water that much.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Originally, it was a hole above the water, into which the waves poured. The turbine could easily cope with such an amount of incoming water.

                        Quote: rytik32
                        At night we got tired of pumping water out of the pit, closed it and flooded 2 pits on the other side.

                        You can estimate the water flow into the 2nd coal compartment by the water flow into the 1st living compartment. There the water flow would be inside the ship, especially since the hole, due to the curvature of the side, is also turned in the direction of movement.
                        And so, please see - the Aurora crew couldn't cope with several shrapnel holes, couldn't drain/seal them, gave up and started counter-flooding. And the Oslyabtsy, led by Zmachinsky, opened the way for streams of water into the hold?
                        You yourself described the conditions - if the hole is insignificant. The "gate" you described is an extremely significant hole.
                      3. 0
                        9 August 2025 13: 18
                        It is very difficult not to notice this, being through the compartment and considering that Sablin did return later.

                        No. There was no chance to notice at all. Between the 2nd coal pit and the living deck there is a blank bulkhead, without doors. Therefore, Sablin physically could not see anything.
                        The armor could have been broken.

                        There were many cases of shells hitting the armor. But always, if the armor was pressed through, it was inward. I recall only one case when a plate was torn outward - at Jutland, when the shell hit from the inside opposite the entry hole.
                        In theory, I admit that the plate could have come off as a result of multiple hits by large shells. But this event would have been noticed not only on the Oslyaba, but also on neighboring ships and even enemy ships.
                        Ozerov saw fire from the opposite side

                        Ozerov made a typo. The fire could only have been on one side.
                        This is a much more logical design.

                        Boltyshev was hiding from the shells in the forward casemate on the starboard side. And Kolokoltsev was there too. If there had been a fire under them...
                        And the Oslyabtsy, led by Zmachinsky, therefore opened the way for the streams of water into the hold?

                        Andrey, there is nothing unusual about this. Read how they fought against water ingress through a hole on the "Sisoe":

                        as a result of the resulting trim, the cover ended up under water and water flowed into the living deck through the mine apparatus. The apparatus was stuffed with mats, but the water supply did not stop. Water was lowered through the hatch into the forward turret compartment to the main pipe and from there it was pumped out overboard by turbines
                      4. 0
                        9 August 2025 13: 58
                        Another quote from Ozerov’s report:
                        Particularly difficult was the patching of the hole near the forward left mine apparatus, through which water was pouring in large quantities into the living deck, and through the hatch coamings into the boiler rooms and hydraulic pump compartments. At one point the under-turret compartment was completely flooded, and the magazines had to be closed. The two working middle turbines saved the day.
                        That is, even on the "Sisoy" they tried to patch up the holes until the very end, and the water was specially drained down and pumped out.
                      5. +1
                        10 August 2025 10: 45
                        Quote: rytik32
                        No. There was no chance of noticing at all.

                        Alexey:))) It's very interesting to read this. That is, when we talk about a shell that exploded in the 10th coal behind the armor, then
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Half of the crew that was on the living deck at that moment would have learned about the destroyed bulkhead.

                        And if two large-caliber shells explode in the 2nd coal pit, where there was no armor at all, then Sablin, who was on the living deck one compartment away, could not have found out about this?:)
                        Quote: rytik32
                        There were many cases of shells hitting the armor. But always, if the armor was pressed through, it was inward.

                        That's right, the damage is, to put it mildly, atypical. But - not impossible.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        But this event would have been noticed not only on the Oslyaba, but also on neighboring ships and even enemy ships.

                        This is not true. Not at all.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Andrey, there is nothing unusual about this. Read how they fought against water ingress through a hole on the "Sisoe"

                        Alexey, you are again uncritically perceiving analogies. Yes, this happened on the "Sisoye", but they drained the water that flowed through a crack in the torpedo tube cover. That is, through a small hole, which, nevertheless, they were unable to close. And in this case, it made sense, since the turbines were quite capable of ensuring the removal of the incoming volume of water. In our case, there were "gates" that no turbines could cope with
                      6. 0
                        10 August 2025 12: 00
                        about the shell that exploded in the 10th coal behind the armor

                        And if two large-caliber shells explode in the 2nd coal pit, where there was no armor at all, then Sablin, who was on the living deck one compartment away, could not have found out about this?:)

                        The 10th coal pit is separated from the living deck by an unarmored bulkhead. And there can't be a situation where the armor is torn off by the force of the explosion, and this bulkhead survives. Is that clear?
                        And the 2nd coal pit, firstly, is located outside the citadel, where there were far fewer people during the battle. Secondly, the explosion probably occurred in the usual place for Japanese high-explosive shells - on the side plating itself. Therefore, there was no extensive damage in the depths of the ship.
                        But - not impossible.

                        Impossible. Gas pressure spreads in all directions, and it cannot be that 102 mm armor could not withstand this pressure, while a bulkhead of 10...12 mm could.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        through a small hole

                        You call a hole "insignificant" through which the under-turret compartment was flooded despite the turbines working???

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In our case, there were "gates" that no turbines could handle.

                        Andrey, yesterday you gave me an interesting thought. I asked myself: how did people get into the 2nd upper coal pit if there were no doors to the living deck?
                        So, they came from the boiler room through the door to the lower coal pit and the hatch in the armor deck. And what would happen to these people if the hatch or the door were closed?
                        I hope you understand why the hatch and door were guaranteed to remain open...
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In our case, there were "gates" that no turbines could handle.

                        I suggest we count.
                        It can be assumed that about the same amount of water entered the 1st compartment through the breach (the breach is smaller, but the location is much worse). Have you calculated the volume of water in the magazine of the 6-inch gun, chain lockers and on the living deck in a layer of 50...60 cm? Can you give the value? I will divide it by the time of entry and compare it with the turbine power.
                      7. +1
                        11 August 2025 03: 56
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The 10th coal pit is separated from the living deck by an unarmored bulkhead. And there can't be a situation where the armor is torn off by the force of the explosion, and this bulkhead survives. Is that clear?

                        Why do you make it a mandatory condition to preserve the integrity of this very bulkhead? We are talking about my thesis that Sablin should have known about getting into the 2nd hole. You are now saying that
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Secondly, the explosion probably occurred in the usual place for Japanese high-explosive shells - on the side plating itself. Therefore, there was no extensive damage in the depths of the ship.

                        Here we have one shell exploded opposite the 1st compartment of the living deck. And the result is more than impressive - in the neighboring compartment there was Egyptian darkness. Therefore, it is difficult for me to accept your reasoning.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Impossible. Gas pressure spreads in all directions, and it cannot be that 102 mm armor could not withstand this pressure, while a bulkhead of 10...12 mm could.

                        I wrote about the armor being knocked out. And the bulkhead might not hold up, that's your condition, not mine.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        You call a hole "insignificant" through which the under-turret compartment was flooded despite the turbines working???

                        It's not a fact that it was through it alone. But the most important thing is that the hole is just a crack in the TA cover, less than half a meter long and a few centimeters wide. Not a gate in the side:)))))) And if you think that through such a small thing the under-turret could have sunk... Then who would have started draining water from a compartment with a huge hole through the VL?

                        Quote: rytik32
                        Andrey, yesterday you gave me an interesting thought. I asked myself: how did people get into the 2nd upper coal pit if there were no doors to the living deck?

                        The answer is no way. They had no reason to go there:)
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I suggest we count.

                        I did the countdown, I hope I can post an article with it today.
                      8. 0
                        11 August 2025 10: 22
                        Here we have one shell exploded opposite the 1st compartment of the living deck. And the result is more than impressive - in the neighboring compartment there was Egyptian darkness. Therefore, it is difficult for me to accept your reasoning.

                        There was an open door between the 1st and 2nd compartments. Plus the bulkhead was damaged. Considering the ventilation features, I don't see anything unusual about the smoke from the rupture being sucked into the 2nd compartment.
                        But between the 2nd coal pit and the living deck there was a blank bulkhead, which is why Sablin could not see the hole.
                        But the most important thing is the hole.

                        On the diagram attached to Ozerov's report, in the living deck opposite the sick bay, two holes are marked on the left side. One is 2x4 feet, the second is 7x4 feet.
                      9. 0
                        11 August 2025 23: 47
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I counted backwards

                        I roughly calculated. The volume of water in the 1st and 2nd sections of the ZhP at an average level of 60 cm, + chain boxes + 6-dm cellar gave roughly 300 tons. And the capacity of just one turbine is 750 tons per hour. That is, even one turbine would easily pump out the water coming through the hole.
                      10. +1
                        11 August 2025 23: 55
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I roughly calculated. The volume of water in the 1st and 2nd sections of the ZhP at an average level of 60 cm, + chain boxes + 6-dm cellar gave roughly 300 tons.

                        They calculated incorrectly, because 60 cm there was closer to the 30th frame - and closer to the bow the trim worked. So, by the time the "Oslyabya" went out of action, there were at least 500 tons on the living deck alone.
                      11. +1
                        12 August 2025 09: 19
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        because 60 cm there was closer to the 30th frame - and closer to the bow the trim worked

                        But towards the bow the hull narrowed... If we take an average of 90 cm, then it turns out that the water entering was approximately the same volume that the turbine could pump out.
                        That is, the hatch to the lower UYA and the door to the KO could be kept open.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Thus, by the time the Oslyabya went out of action, there were no less than 500 tons on the living deck alone.

                        At the time of failure, the two forward compartments of the living deck were freely connected to the sea and were completely flooded. This is a completely different situation.
                      12. +1
                        12 August 2025 11: 12
                        Quote: rytik32
                        If we take an average of 90 cm, then it turns out that the water flowed in approximately the same volume that the turbine could pump out.

                        Alexey, you somehow equated the volume of water in the compartment with the speed of its flow there. Which is hardly true, or rather, completely wrong.
                      13. 0
                        12 August 2025 11: 32
                        You somehow equated the volume of water in the compartment with the speed of its flow there.

                        In about half an hour, about 12 tons of water entered through the above-water hole from a 2,5-inch shell 375 meters in diameter, which means that 750 tons of water would have entered in an hour. The turbine pumps out exactly 750 tons per hour. Is that clearer?
                        Your guess
                        In our case, there were "gates" that no turbines could handle.

                        not confirmed
                      14. +1
                        12 August 2025 13: 21
                        Quote: rytik32
                        In about half an hour, approximately 12 tons of water entered through the above-water hole from a 2,5-inch shell 375 meters in diameter.

                        More than 500, most likely - significantly. Is that clearer?:)))
                      15. 0
                        12 August 2025 18: 45
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        More than 500, most likely - significantly

                        Share the calculation method
                        I calculated the volume of water on the living deck in Excel with a step of 1 meter: from 1 to 31. Based on the fact that the depth of the water at the breach is 1 meter, at the hatch to the mine apparatus compartment 0,6 meters. I took the area as an isosceles triangle. I took into account the permeability coefficient and density. I got 271 tons. I did not recalculate the chain boxes and 6-inch cellar more precisely, but there is no way much will fit there.
                        How did you get more than 500???
                      16. +1
                        12 August 2025 20: 22
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I calculated the volume of water on the living deck in Excel in 1 meter increments: from 1 to 31.

                        I'm embarrassed to ask - what is this? Does your depth increase from frame 0 to frame 30?:)
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The area was taken as an isosceles triangle.

                        It will be approximately like this - length 30,84 m, base width - 17,4 m, area - 268,3 m3
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The result was 271 tons.

                        First, you need to calculate the trim correctly, but that's not the point. The point is that you are calculating the volume of water statically, but you need to calculate it dynamically. The volume of incoming water is not equal to the volume of the calculated flooding of the living deck. It is equal to "the volume of the flooded deck + leaks below + water lowered into the hold and pumped out by the turbines."
                      17. 0
                        12 August 2025 22: 11
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I'm embarrassed to ask - what is this? Does your depth increase from frame 0 to frame 30?:)

                        0 is the 30th frame and then every meter. 31 is the bow end.
                        length 30,84 m, base width - 17,4 m

                        I got a little more. I counted by pixels.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        First, you need to calculate the trim correctly

                        Too many unknowns to calculate accurately. Starting from the longitudinal MCB.
                        leaks below

                        I also considered the two compartments a plus.
                        water released into the hold and pumped out by turbines

                        Not much could have leaked through the hatch before Zavarin closed it; there were only a few tons.
                      18. +1
                        12 August 2025 22: 47
                        Quote: rytik32
                        0 is the 30th frame and then every meter. 31 is the bow end.

                        What does "16m width" mean at the 31st end?
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Too many unknowns to calculate accurately. Starting from the longitudinal MCB.

                        Actually, not too much. The moment of force is known, all that remains is to calculate the center of mass of the water on the living deck, and that's not difficult.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Not much could have leaked through the hatch before Zavarin closed it; there were only a few tons.

                        It leaked through the cracks, the water kept coming despite the turbines working
                      19. 0
                        12 August 2025 23: 35
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        What does "16m width" mean at the 31st end?

                        You found a mistake in the calculation, I recalculated. It turned out even less
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The moment of force is known

                        Theoretical. For the theoretical MCB. The real transverse MCB has deviated very much from the designed one. The longitudinal MCB has probably also deviated, but no one knows by how much.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It leaked through the cracks, the water kept coming despite the turbines working

                        From Zavarin's testimony, one can definitely conclude that the water flowed from a completely different hit. The shell in the 1st compartment could not have damaged the ventilation pipes of the mine apparatus compartment.
                      20. +1
                        13 August 2025 00: 01
                        Quote: rytik32
                        You found a mistake in the calculation, I recalculated. It turned out even less

                        Of course. But what's the point of this calculation? You took some ephemeral depth figures, it's unclear what they're connected to, completely disconnected from other damage to the ship... They don't matter. And yes, I repeat, you need to calculate a dynamic model, not a static one.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Theoretical. For the theoretical MCB. The real transverse MCB has deviated very much from the designed one. The longitudinal MCB has probably also deviated, but no one knows by how much.

                        And there is no need for the MTSV - it is enough to know the center of gravity. It has not gone too far (otherwise there would be a clearly expressed list/diff), so the design one will do just fine.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        From Zavarin’s testimony, one can clearly conclude that the water flowed from a completely different source.

                        From Zavarin's testimony, one can conclude that the water was constantly coming after the first hit. No other conclusions can be drawn from his testimony.
                      21. 0
                        13 August 2025 00: 29
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You took some ephemeral depth figures, it is not clear what they are connected with

                        I took the figures from witness testimony.
                        I'm deeply sorry if they don't fit your version :)
                        need a dynamic model

                        The task was to estimate the volume of water pouring in through the above-water hole. The conclusion is clear - the turbines were quite capable of pumping out the incoming water.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And there is no need for the MCS - it is enough to know the center of gravity

                        Andrey, you're scaring me :)
                        The center of gravity and the MCC are interdependent quantities. If the center of gravity changes, for example due to counterflooding, then the MCC also changes.
                        He didn't go too far.

                        How to say 91...76 cm instead of 148,5 cm, i.e. almost twice!

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        that the water kept coming after the first hit

                        After does not mean because of
                      22. +1
                        13 August 2025 00: 49
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I took the figures from witness testimony.
                        I'm deeply sorry if they don't fit your version:

                        Alexey, it is impossible to make a calculation similar to yours based on the figures from the testimony. These figures are broken up by time and give an approximate value (plus or minus ten centimeters, or even more). Therefore, there is no need to regret my version, but it is worth thinking about how to make such calculations correctly.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The task was to estimate the volume of water pouring in through the above-water hole. The conclusion is clear - the turbines were quite capable of pumping out the incoming water.

                        Alas. You have very inaccurately calculated the volume of water on the living deck in statics, ignoring the dynamics - the result is not applicable to anything at all and does not allow any conclusions to be made.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Andrey, you're scaring me :)

                        Don't be afraid to read textbooks on shipbuilding.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The center of gravity and the MCC are interdependent quantities. If the center of gravity changes, for example due to counterflooding, then the MCC also changes.

                        You are saying the right things, but apparently you do not quite understand how it works. Take a ship with its center of gravity before the flooding, and then simply calculate the effect of these floods from the existing CG. And everything will be fine:)))) And how much the ship's CG and MCC will change after the flooding - you do not need this, since the calculation results will show the list and trim, which is exactly what happened as a result of the change in CG and MCC.
                        However, further I will try to describe the technology of such calculations as clearly as possible.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        How to say 91...76 cm instead of 148,5 cm, i.e. almost twice!

                        MCV. Which is not needed in the calculations of the list and trim. That is, not so - yes, it is possible to calculate through MCV, but such a calculation can only be performed by a professional, EMINP with recalculation of the theoretical drawing based on the results of flooding, etc.
                        There are simpler ways
                        Quote: rytik32
                        After does not mean because of

                        In this case, it means
                      23. 0
                        13 August 2025 20: 25
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        You have very inaccurately calculated the volume of water on the living deck in statics, ignoring the dynamics

                        There was no dynamics. Zavarin turned on the turbines only after hitting the 2nd compartment of the living deck.
                        and then just calculate the effect of these floods from the existing central heating system

                        So the textbooks write that it is possible to neglect taking into account the change in the mean time of flooding only in the case of minor flooding.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        MCV. Which is not needed in the calculations of the roll and trim.

                        There are simpler ways

                        ... which have many limitations.
                      24. +1
                        13 August 2025 21: 34
                        Quote: rytik32
                        There was no dynamics. Zavarin turned on the turbines only after hitting the 2nd compartment of the living deck.

                        It is impossible to determine the time, but the water had been rising before.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        So the textbooks write that it is possible to neglect taking into account the change in the mean time of flooding only in the case of minor flooding.

                        Yeah. And also - they write what can be understood by small floods. For example, a small angle of heel is an angle up to the contact of the upper deck with water. That is, in the case of the "Oslyabya" these methods are completely legitimate
                      25. 0
                        13 August 2025 22: 31
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It is impossible to determine the time, but the water had been rising before.

                        Water started to spill over the hatch coaming and stopped spilling when Zavarin closed the hatch. And then suddenly it started to flow through the ventilation. The reason for this could not have been a hit in the 1st compartment. So the reason was a hit in the 2nd compartment. There are no other options. It was not Lebedev who knocked down the ventilation pipes smile

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        That is, in the case of "Oslyabya" these methods are completely legitimate.

                        I hope we will see your calculations soon.
                      26. +1
                        13 August 2025 22: 39
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Water began to spill over the hatch coaming and stopped spilling when Zavarin closed the hatch.

                        Somehow
                        Quote: rytik32
                        And then suddenly it started coming in through the ventilation. The reason for this could not have been the hit in the 1st compartment.

                        Not "later". Zavarin went out, closed the hatch, went back down and saw that water was flowing through the ventilation. At the same time, "the ship began to list". So this was a consequence of the first hit and the deliberately earlier hit in the second compartment.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I hope we will see your calculations soon.

                        Yes, I have posted the first part, it will soon be on the main page.
                      27. 0
                        13 August 2025 23: 18
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        and saw that water was flowing through the ventilation

                        Zavarin does not write how much time passed from his return until water appeared in the ventilation system and the list increased.
                        and obviously before entering the 2nd compartment

                        Here is the increase in the roll - this is a clear consequence of hitting the 2nd compartment. According to calculations, the MCB decreased by 80 cm at once and this could not but affect the roll.
                      28. +1
                        13 August 2025 23: 47
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Zavarin does not write how much time passed from his return until water appeared in the ventilation system and the list increased.

                        True, it is not written. And this alone makes your categorical statement impossible.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        So the reason was the hit in the 2nd compartment. There are no other options.

                        And considering that Zavarin writes directly that the ventilation was damaged by a shell that hit opposite the 1st living compartment, your assertion that
                        Quote: rytik32
                        And then suddenly it started coming in through the ventilation. The reason for this could not have been the hit in the 1st compartment.

                        directly contradicts Zavarin's testimony. It is very interesting that in support of your thesis you refer to evidence that refutes your thesis.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Here is the increase in the roll - this is a clear consequence of hitting the 2nd compartment. According to calculations, the MCB decreased by 80 cm at once and this could not but affect the roll.

                        :))))) You see, if a compartment receives direct communication with the sea, it stops forming a reserve of buoyancy, thereby reducing the MCB. So, since the hit in the 1st compartment of the living deck led to a direct communication of the 2nd compartment with the sea through the damaged bulkhead, it was as a result of the 1st hit that the MCB decreased (of course, not by 80 cm, but that is not the point). The point is that the hit in the 2nd living deck had no effect on either the reserve of buoyancy or the MCB.
                        Moreover. The reduction of the MCR itself does not create a list. The reduction of the MCR only weakens the ship's ability to resist the effects that increase the list.
                      29. 0
                        14 August 2025 00: 13
                        The ventilation was damaged by a shell that hit opposite the 1st living compartment

                        Only Zavarin does not specify which compartments' ventilation was damaged by the hit to the 1st compartment. Therefore, there is no contradiction. If we assume that these are the same compartments that Sablin wrote about being flooded, then everything falls into place.
                        a hit to the 1st compartment of the living deck led to a direct connection between the 2nd compartment and the sea through a damaged bulkhead

                        And how did the 1st compartment communicate with the sea? Lebedev writes directly that he almost sealed the hole. And the sea level was below the edge of the hole.
                        The reduction of the MCB itself does not create a tilt

                        It does indeed create.
                        Have you plotted the static stability diagram of the Oslyabya?
                        A decrease in the MCR only weakens the ship's ability to resist impacts that increase the list.

                        There are only two effects on the ship: gravity and buoyancy. They will create the list.
                      30. +1
                        14 August 2025 20: 08
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Only Zavarin does not specify which compartments' ventilation was damaged by the hit to the 1st compartment. Therefore, there is no contradiction.

                        Zavarin points to damage to the ventilation and water ingress through the ventilation. One follows from the other, such reading is acceptable. If you think otherwise, then you are within your rights, and you can prove your thesis. But you cannot cite Zavarin in support of your thesis. He does not confirm you - you still have to prove that he does not contradict you.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        If we assume that these are the same compartments that Sablin wrote about being flooded, then everything falls into place.

                        Nothing fits. The list of the "Oslyabya" appeared after the hole in the 10th coal pit, if not earlier, and the hit opposite the 2nd compartment of the living deck occurred later. And the water went through the ventilation at the beginning of the list - according to Zavarin. In general, my interpretation of Zavarin is not only absolutely logical, but also corresponds to the theory of the ship. Yours is full of stretches.
                        Quote: rytik32

                        It does indeed create.
                        Have you plotted the static stability diagram of the Oslyabya?

                        The decrease in the MTS itself does not create a list, Alexey:))))) And the diagram is not needed here at all.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        There are only two effects on the ship: gravity and buoyancy. They will create the list.

                        That's right. Reducing the MCR reduces the external force required for roll, but does not create it.
                      31. 0
                        15 August 2025 00: 44
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        One follows from the other.

                        Absolutely not. Zavarin writes about damaged pipes and water coming through pipes in different places.

                        According to Zavarin, the hole in the 1st compartment was actually sealed. That is, according to Zavarin, the water coming through it could not have gotten into the ventilation of the underwater mine apparatus compartment.

                        The list of the "Oslyabya" appeared after the hole in the 10th coal pit, if not earlier, and the hit opposite the 2nd compartment of the living deck occurred later. And the water went through the ventilation at the beginning of the list - according to Zavarin.

                        The Oslyabya began listing at approximately 14:00, about 5 minutes after the breach in the first compartment. Could these events have happened in sequence in 1 minutes:
                        1. Sablin was informed that the power had gone out.
                        2. Sablin came to the 1st compartment.
                        3. Sablin walked around and left.
                        4. Lebedev arrived and began to patch up the hole; there was knee-deep water in the 1st compartment.
                        5. The water rose to the coaming in the 2nd compartment and flowed into the mine apparatus compartment.
                        6. Zavarin went out onto the living deck and closed the hatch.
                        7. Zavarin returned to the mine apparatus compartment and closed the hatch.
                        The answer is no.
                        This means that Zavarin noticed the list not at the moment when it appeared, but when the list increased.
                        The reduction of the MCB itself does not create a tilt

                        Depends on the values to which the MCR decreases. When the MCR decreases below zero, the roll is inevitable.
                        reduces the external force required to roll

                        External force is not necessary. Conduct a simple experiment at home. Put a regular 200...250 ml tall glass, empty, into a bathtub/sink/large saucepan, etc. It will not be able to float smoothly. It has a very small MCV, and no external forces are needed.
                        To make it float smoothly, you need to put a weight on the bottom, for example, pour coins. Then the MCV will increase and it will float smoothly.
                        In the same way, when the MCR decreases to negative values, the ship falls on its side, even without any external forces.
                      32. +1
                        15 August 2025 19: 34
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Absolutely not. Zavarin writes about damaged pipes and water coming through pipes in different places.

                        I have not seen anywhere in Zavarin's phrases about different places
                        Quote: rytik32
                        According to Zavarin, the hole in the 1st compartment was actually sealed. That is, according to Zavarin, the water coming through it could not have gotten into the ventilation of the underwater mine apparatus compartment.

                        This is a completely incomprehensible judgment. I will not mention the fact that the hole was not sealed, as Sablin writes. But even if the hole had been sealed, there was still enough water on the living deck to continue to flow down, including through the ventilation.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        The Oslyabya began to list at approximately 14:00, about 5 minutes after the hole in the first compartment.

                        Let's say
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Could these events have happened in sequence within 5 minutes:

                        Why five?:))) You shouldn't confuse the moment of hitting the 10th corner with the moment when Zavarin realized the list. On a ship with waves of 4 points or whatever it was at that moment, a list of 1-2 degrees is quite difficult to feel, especially in battle, when you are doing something.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        1. Sablin was informed that the power had gone out.
                        2. Sablin came to the 1st compartment.
                        3. Sablin walked around and left.
                        4. Lebedev arrived and began to patch up the hole; there was knee-deep water in the 1st compartment.
                        5. The water rose to the coaming in the 2nd compartment and flowed into the mine apparatus compartment.
                        6. Zavarin went out onto the living deck and closed the hatch.
                        7. Zavarin returned to the mine apparatus compartment and closed the hatch.
                        The answer is no.

                        The answer is yes. Because the question should be put this way
                        Could the following events have occurred within 5-8 minutes from the moment of impact in the 1st compartment opposite the residential deck:
                        1. The water rose to the coaming in the 2nd compartment and flowed into the mine apparatus compartment.
                        2. Zavarin went out onto the living deck and closed the hatch.
                        3. Zavarin returned to the mine apparatus compartment and closed the hatch.
                        Everything. What happened there at Sablin's does not fit into this timeline at all.
                        It is simply necessary to remember that Zavarin knew about the damage to the ventilation from the shell explosion and about the sealing of the hole from other people's words, he did not see it himself and could not know when it happened. Therefore, it is impossible to time these events sequentially - they could have happened in parallel. That is, it is quite possible that the hole was sealed after Zavarin returned and discovered water flowing through the ventilation.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Depends on the values to which the MCR decreases. When the MCR decreases below zero, the roll is inevitable.

                        Are you sure that you understand the essence of the ICC correctly? The further I read your interpretation of the ICC, the stronger the suspicion that you have not fully understood the issue.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        External force is not necessary. Conduct a simple experiment at home. Put a regular 200...250 ml tall glass, empty, into a bathtub/sink/large saucepan, etc. It will not be able to float smoothly. It has a very small MCV, and no external forces are needed.

                        In my opinion, you made several mistakes in this example.
                        Without external forces, the glass will float smoothly. But for this to happen, the water must be perfectly smooth, you must lower the glass into the water perfectly smoothly, and the glass itself must be perfectly balanced (none of its edges should outweigh). If at least one of these conditions is not met, the glass will float as you described, but in the first two cases this will be caused by external influence, and in the third - by the displacement of the center of gravity of the glass relative to its central axis. The MCV has nothing to do with it in either case.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        In the same way, when the MCR decreases to negative values, the ship falls on its side, even without any external forces.

                        Alexey, if you put 50 tons of cargo on the upper deck of the Borodino with a center of gravity slightly more than 20 feet from the center plane, the ship will receive a constant list of 1 degree to the side closer to which the cargo was placed. Do you think that the ship's MCG has decreased to a negative value?:)))
                      33. 0
                        15 August 2025 20: 33
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        I have not seen anywhere in Zavarin's phrases about different places

                        I am writing that in his testimony, damage to ventilation and water ingress through ventilation are written in different places in the text. That is, there are no signs that Zavarin is referring to the same ventilation pipes.
                        The moment of hitting the 10th corner should not be confused with the moment when Zavarin realized the appearance of the list

                        Many people noticed the list of the Oslyabya even before it entered the wake.
                        The water rose to the coaming in the 2nd compartment and flowed into the mine apparatus compartment

                        You can't do it right away. The water must at least fill the chain boxes.
                        What happened there at Sablin's does not fit into this timeline at all

                        It hits. Sablin didn't even see the beginning of the work to seal the hole. Otherwise, he wouldn't have asked questions about it.
                        Without the influence of external forces, the glass will float smoothly.

                        Film this and post it)))
                        Do you think that the ship's MVC has decreased to a negative value?:)))

                        No, in this case the MTS could well have been positive.
                      34. +1
                        15 August 2025 21: 44
                        Quote: rytik32
                        I am writing that in his testimony, damage to ventilation and water ingress through ventilation are written in different places in the text. That is, there are no signs that Zavarin is referring to the same ventilation pipes.

                        No. However, the absence of such signs is not proof of your thesis. Here we can say, at most, that this particular thesis of Zavarin may not contradict your thesis.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Many people noticed the list of the Oslyabya even before it entered the wake.

                        So many noticed the list to starboard. And that the "Oslyabya" was sinking, settling on the stern:)))))
                        The point is that these testimonies do not make life any easier in terms of determining the roll time.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        You can't do it right away. The water must at least fill the chain boxes.

                        Alexey, let's make it simpler. Zavarin, verbatim, said the following
                        "Although the hole was sealed, before it was sealed, water got into the underwater mine vehicles"

                        So we have - it is directly stated that the water got in before the hole was sealed and there is no indication of how exactly the water got into the TA room. The ways in which the water got to this room is your hypothesis. But even within the framework of the hypothesis, I absolutely do not see why the chain boxes are an insurmountable obstacle.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        It hits. Sablin didn't even see the beginning of the work to seal the hole. Otherwise, he wouldn't have asked questions about it.

                        Sablin has absolutely nothing to do with it. At all. After 13.55 Sablin went to the nose to deal with the consequences of the first hit, that's for sure. But it's impossible to build a sequence of actions of Sablin & Zavarin - there is simply no data for this. That is, it is completely unclear what Sablin was doing when Zavarin climbed out to close the hatch, for example.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Film this and post it)))

                        Easy - as soon as you send me a perfectly balanced glass:)))))
                        Quote: rytik32
                        No, in this case the MTS could well have been positive.

                        Alexey, the essence of the MTS is that:
                        1) When a ship has a positive MCO, then when the ship is heeled by an external force (for example, waves), the ship tries to return to its original position. That is, when the ship is tilted, after the external force has dried up (a gust of wind, for example), the moment of gravity and the buoyant force (the restoring moment) is aimed at restoring the ship's position to its original position.
                        2) When a ship has zero MCO, the ship does not try to return anywhere. In a perfectly calm sea, you can push it with your hand, it will tilt, and when the energy of your push runs out, it will freeze in place.
                        A typical example of a body with zero metacentric height is a floating barrel. When in calm water, such a barrel will rotate along its longitudinal axis under the influence of any external forces (for example, wind).
                        3) When a ship has a negative MCO, then when the slightest roll from an external force is formed, the restoring moment will have a negative value and will increase this roll. The roll will increase either until the ship capsizes or until its underwater part changes its geometry so much that the original calculation of the MCO loses its meaning.
                        And this happens quite quickly, since after a roll of 10 degrees, the MCV formulas no longer provide an answer to the ship's behavior. And here the Reed diagram will help.
                        But all this does not help at all to estimate the list from combat damage - because the Reed diagram is constructed for a specific weight load of the vessel. That is, the "Oslyabya" without combat damage will have one diagram, and with some flooded compartment - another. Therefore, trying to calculate something there through diagrams is, well, an occupation.
                        Quote: rytik32
                        No, in this case the MTS could well have been positive.

                        Absolutely right. It is easy to conclude from this that a ship's constant list is not evidence of a zero or negative MCI.
                      35. +1
                        15 August 2025 22: 15
                        Quote: rytik32
                        No, in this case the MTS could well have been positive.

                        In general, if we are to be completely pedantic, then in this case the MTS could not be negative:)
                      36. +1
                        10 August 2025 11: 18
                        By the way, Alexey, can you tell me, the reading rooms at the Russian State Archive of the Navy are open only Monday through Friday during business hours, until 16.00:17.00-XNUMX:XNUMX. Is there any way to access the documents at a different time? I see that it is possible to order photocopies, but that is not a solution...
                      37. +1
                        10 August 2025 11: 36
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        exclusively Monday-Friday during working hours, until 16.00-17.00

                        Yes, that's the only way. Things need to be ordered in advance.
                        in the building on Serebristy Boulevard, 24, bldg. 1:
                        Monday, Wednesday from 10:00 to 17:00
                        Tuesday, Thursday from 13:00 to 17:00
                        Friday from 10:00 to 16:00
                        The last Friday of every month is a cleaning day.
                        Is there any possibility to access the documents at another time?

                        No
                        I see that it is possible to order photocopies.

                        Usually, copies of drawings are ordered. Ordering copies of the entire file is very expensive. And it is not a fact that you will find exactly what you need there.
                        I usually take a week off and go work on paperwork.
                      38. +1
                        11 August 2025 03: 43
                        Quote: rytik32
                        Yes, only so.

                        Well, well... Another crystal dream gone to waste. Alexey, do you happen to know where I can buy a lip-rolling machine? laughing
                      39. +1
                        11 August 2025 18: 22
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Do you happen to know where I can buy a lip-sealing machine?

                        Don't they sell it on Ozon? laughing
                      40. +2
                        11 August 2025 23: 01
                        Quote: Macsen_Wledig
                        Don't they sell it on Ozon?

                        I looked, it seems like the local models weren't designed for my lip laughing
  7. 0
    5 August 2025 19: 35
    Holes in the 2nd, 10th and 16th coal pits

    A-a-a-a!..
    Dear Andrey, well, by God...
    https://gramota.ru/biblioteka/spravochniki/pismovnik/kogda-nuzhny-bukvennye-narashcheniya-posle-tsifr
  8. +2
    6 August 2025 13: 29
    Andrey, and again very interesting and non-trivial!
    Thank you, I look forward to the continuation!
    1. 0
      7 August 2025 11: 36
      Thank you very much, dear Andrey!
  9. -2
    6 August 2025 18: 23
    "In my opinion, this is how things were." (quote from the article)... That's the main principle of this "research". Alternative fiction.
    1. +1
      7 August 2025 11: 38
      Quote: Evgeny Lyubchinov
      Alternative fiction.

      As you say:))))
      But you, of course, know exactly how the "Oslyabya" perished? You probably fought for its survivability yourself? Tell me, don't keep me in suspense:)))
      1. 0
        7 August 2025 20: 43
        Don't worry in vain, I won't tell you. Other "experts" tell you so much, it's breathtaking!!!
        1. +1
          7 August 2025 23: 11
          Quote: Evgeny Lyubchinov
          Don't languish in vain, I won't tell you

          You are tearing my heart into pieces:))))) I'll go and cry somewhere in a corner:)))))))))