Military Review

Everything is for sale in Russia

102



After more than a year of trading on the details of the deal, Russia agreed to sell 24 Su-35 fighters to China. A big obstacle to this deal was China’s inability to guarantee Russia that its new technology on these aircraft would not be stolen by Chinese aviation firms. Apparently, a mutually acceptable compromise was reached.

At first, China refused to buy Su-35 fighter jets in Russia if the clause "without unauthorized duplication" is included in the contract. The Chinese wanted to buy the Su-35, but were not ready to sign a commitment not to copy the Russian aircraft. China is already producing unauthorized copies of Russian Su-27, calling them J11, and Russia is not at all pleased with this event. Since then, China has developed a double version of a fighter-bomber (J16), an unobtrusive version (J17), and also in Ukraine got a deck version of the Su-30 (Su-33) aircraft and produces copies of it (J15).

China insists that all these are Chinese projects that just by chance have some similarities with Russian fighters. In response, Russia stopped selling combat aircraft to China, but still sells jet engines for these aircraft. So far, China’s attempts to create copies of these engines have failed. Sales of engines are too profitable to abandon them, as they allow Russian engine manufacturers to continue developing new models. China plans to steal the technology of their production as soon as it can figure out how to cope with the exotic production skills necessary to create these engines.

Su-35 is a 34-ton fighter and is more maneuverable than the original 33-ton Su-27, and is also equipped with much better electronics. It has a supersonic cruising speed, but costs at least fifty percent more than the Su-27. This results in about $ 60 millions (for the base model) or as much as the most advanced F-16 costs. The Su-27 was designed to fit the F-15, which is larger in size than the single-engine F-16. The large size of the Su-27 / 35 leaves developers with far more room to upgrade and improve.

Su-35 has some elements of stealth (or at least less visible to most fighter radars). Russia claims that the Su-35 has a lifespan of 6000 flight hours and engines of 4000 hours. Russia promises world-class avionics, as well as a very comfortable cockpit for the pilot. The use of jet control systems and active remote flight control engines will allow aircraft to be even more maneuverable than Su-30 (which were converted from Su-27 to be super-maneuverable). Su-35 was in development for two decades before it was declared ready for production in the 2005 year. But even then there were still problems with new engines, providing it with high flight performance. Russia claims that the problems with the engines have been resolved, but only time will tell if this is true.

Su-35 is not intended to be a direct competitor to the F-22, because the Russian aircraft is not so subtle. The Su-35 is equipped with an 30-mm automatic cannon (150 ammo) and is capable of carrying up to eight tons of ammunition on the 12 external suspension points. This reduces the stealthiness that the F-22 and F-35 achieve using internal compartments for bombs and missiles. However, if the maneuverability and modern electronics offered by the Su-35 will meet the promises, then the aircraft will surpass all existing fighters, except F-22. Since Su-35 is sold for less than $ 100 million, it should have a lot of buyers.

Meanwhile, J11, a clone of the Su-27, was not an easy affair for China. This aircraft entered service in the 1998 year, but its production was very slow and only about a hundred aircraft were produced. It was during this process that the Chinese mastered many technical details of the reproduction and modernization of the Russian aircraft. Then China changed the design of the Su-27 and built at least one hundred 33 tons of J11A. This model was equipped with modern Chinese-made electronics and is capable of carrying about eight tons of air-to-air guided missiles and smart bombs. Then followed J11B, which was the same size and weight as J11A, but was equipped with a more advanced radar with AFAR and was specifically designed for air-to-ground missions, and was also able to stand up for itself in air combat.

Su-35 will give China a lot of ideas (and technology) for its J11C, regardless of what promises have been made to Russia.
Originator:
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htmurph/articles/20130411.aspx
102 comments
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  1. Nicholas C.
    Nicholas C. April 16 2013 07: 42
    +6
    While their level is to copy ours. The main thing is that we always be ahead.
    1. d1m1drol
      d1m1drol April 16 2013 08: 20
      43
      we are ahead in terms of quality ... but in terms of quantity, they have wiped us long ago. Well, you can’t sell them su35 .. not only one themselves .. not one.
      1. Kolya
        Kolya April 16 2013 08: 39
        34
        As always, a few people will warm their hands on the sale of the SU-35, and all of Russia, which has created this plane, will lose. The infamous "problem of the common" when the units usurp what belongs to the people.
      2. Bronis
        Bronis April 16 2013 09: 06
        12
        Su-35's 10 pieces (serial). They promise as much by the end of the year. Up to 2015 - 48 pcs. But still, not yet very thick.
        1. Civil
          Civil April 16 2013 09: 22
          21
          Yes, even on a hundred pages of the contract, indicate "CANNOT COPY" the Chinese do not care.
          1. FATEMOGAN
            FATEMOGAN April 16 2013 11: 04
            +7
            Quote: Civil
            Yes, even on a hundred pages of the contract, indicate "CANNOT COPY" the Chinese do not care.

            Yes, wait ahead of time to get upset, some foreign rag has scribbled ala a sensation, and our foreign "Professor" published it and all that business wassat !! Where at least once this deal was OFFICIALLY reported, but not where! Maybe the Professor will simply program all of us for the sale of fighters, and for the negative, who knows what these foreign "professors" have in mind, especially the topic has already been eaten away and discussed more than once, why it was necessary to get it out of the dusty closet again, it is not clear ..... So let's wait and see for now, but we will always have time to tear the hair on the pope laughing
            1. Jurkovs
              Jurkovs April 16 2013 19: 24
              +1
              During the recent visit of their Chairman to Moscow.
      3. ole
        ole April 16 2013 13: 43
        +1
        China's naive technology is already ahead of everyone in only a few branches.
        1. FATEMOGAN
          FATEMOGAN April 16 2013 15: 07
          +1
          Quote: ole
          Naive China in technological advancement ahead of everyone

          Interestingly, but the Chinese themselves are guessing about this? lol and that’s why they are ahead of the rest, they are asking for the sale of airplanes, helicopters, submarines, air defense systems, etc., etc. ...... just like that, I'm tired of flying in copies, I wanted to ride on the Original .... and of course, China is technologically ahead of everyone in stamping stolen ideas wassat
          1. ole
            ole April 17 2013 01: 04
            +1
            You have backward stereotypes, today China has microelectronic production technologies that are not available in Japan and Korea, in chemistry and metallurgy they stably compete, they invest huge amounts of money in fundamental and applied science, and the United States is keen on cybernetics, I agree that consumer goods are ..., but this is for us, for ourselves everything will be done at a good level. No wonder the whole figure is made from them.
            1. old man54
              old man54 8 May 2013 19: 38
              +1
              Well, firstly, not all of them are far from "the entire figure" being produced, and there is evidence that Western corporations have begun to actively transfer their production from China to South America. And China itself has not yet come up with anything worthy. And stealing what is constantly bad is meanness, and meanness must and will be punished, look!
      4. SuperVodka777
        SuperVodka777 April 16 2013 18: 03
        +1
        You want to say that the Chinese Air Force is larger in number? And not close, but the question is what can.
      5. Jurkovs
        Jurkovs April 16 2013 19: 22
        +1
        Quantity is a relative concept. It is necessary to consider what% of the aircraft is under repair, how quickly the machine can make a second flight. Due to the low quality of the engines, the Chinese are forced to check the engines in detail before each flight, as we recently did. All this significantly reduces the number of cars that can be in the air.
      6. old man54
        old man54 8 May 2013 19: 32
        0
        but such as Smerdyukov-taburetkin is not an argument, then, that Russia will lose the technologies that painfully and with difficulty have been created for so long in our military-industrial complex!
    2. Geisenberg
      Geisenberg April 16 2013 11: 18
      +3
      Quote: Nikolay S.
      While their level is to copy ours. The main thing is that we always be ahead.


      Each purchase with subsequent copying delays their development. So let them buy and copy.

      In general, these squeals have already gotten sick of the fact that everything is for sale with us.
      1. tungus
        tungus April 16 2013 12: 38
        +5
        Yes, no one has sold anything to anyone yet.
        "Reports in the state-owned Chinese press trumpeted a new agreement for China to acquire 24 Su-35 fighters in Russia, as well as 4 Lada-class submarines, a deal denied by Russia's official ITAR-TASS news agency."
      2. Bashkaus
        Bashkaus April 16 2013 15: 56
        +3
        Each purchase with subsequent copying delays their development. plus you from me, a very interesting idea, but the main thing is that you are right, but all the same, until our T50 fully enters the troops, I would wait with the Su35 for sale, or if I sell, then at least make cavities filled with Chinese plague and closed screwed bolts - let them unwind for health
        )))
        1. Geisenberg
          Geisenberg April 16 2013 17: 58
          0
          Quote: Bashkaus
          [b] it’s all the same, until our T50 fully enters the troops, I would wait with the sale of Su35, or if I sell, then at least make cavities filled with Chinese plague and closed with screwed bolts - let them unwind
          )))


          Then I didn’t begin to spoil my image with children's dirty tricks, such as turned nuts and bolts, the Chinese are not so stupid :) ... There is a real holivar on the ban on copying. Now, if the Chinese win it then it will be very certainly, then in principle it can be abandoned.

          Flood T50 of our Air Force - and when else will this happen ??? It’s easier and faster to start mass production of the C500.
          1. antiaircrafter
            antiaircrafter April 16 2013 18: 50
            0
            Quote: Geisenberg
            and it’s faster to start the C500 batch production, in large quantities.

            And where are the calculations to take in large quantities?
  2. Alexander Romanov
    Alexander Romanov April 16 2013 07: 43
    26
    SU 35 will have many buyers until they are sold to China, then a copy will appear on the arms market much cheaper. Themselves with bare pants, but no need to sell, remove the broth from the transaction. Our politicians not only lack conscience, but also a simple mind.
    1. andrejwz
      andrejwz April 16 2013 07: 57
      10
      Quote: Alexander Romanov
      Our politicians not only lack conscience, but also a simple mind.

      Where politics begins, conscience ends there. But here, just where is the politics here? I visa only the personal interests of the participants in the process.
    2. AK-47
      AK-47 April 16 2013 08: 30
      +2
      Quote: Alexander Romanov
      Our politicians not only lack conscience, but also a simple mind.

      It’s a pity that they don’t read these comments by politicians, maybe then their conscience would wake up and their minds would increase.
      1. Alan
        Alan April 16 2013 09: 40
        +4
        Where big money appears, conscience becomes selective, or rather, big money mainly comes from those whose conscience is atrophied. In a mess with China, they and their children will simply leave Russia. Pi Pi Pi Pi (no other words). one hope that this is "another duck" "in Peking"
      2. old man54
        old man54 8 May 2013 19: 43
        0
        yes to them "us..t" on all our comments, conclusions and conclusions! they live in another reality!
  3. Kyrgyz
    Kyrgyz April 16 2013 07: 52
    +4
    The dry one needs money, it needs export, they will sell the goods to China intensively working on the obsolescence of this product, they will block exports from China by lawsuits, China is a bad copy but it always copies yesterday. Of course, as one great one said, sometimes quantity is a quality - time will tell.
  4. svp67
    svp67 April 16 2013 07: 53
    0
    Quote: Alexander Romanov
    Our politicians not only lack conscience, but also a simple mind.


    And not who did not think that "alliance" has to be paid. Although that doesn't color our guide either
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov April 16 2013 08: 04
      +6
      Quote: svp67
      And not who did not think that "alliance" has to be paid.

      Pay for alliance what Maybe China will immediately begin to pay tribute, but what do you think goes racketeers roofing is also allies fool
      1. Gemar
        Gemar April 16 2013 08: 09
        +4
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        Maybe China will immediately begin to pay tribute

        Paul Ussuriysk is already being paid ... They already have authority there.
        My friend is sitting in a pre-trial detention center in Vlad, he says the Chinese are sitting there in different huts, doing gop-stop, roofing, pimping (Russian lyady) ...
        1. morpex
          morpex April 16 2013 21: 46
          +2
          Quote: Gamar
          Paul Ussuriysk is already being paid ... They already have authority there. My friend is sitting in a pre-trial detention center in Vlad, he says the Chinese are sitting there in different huts, doing gop-stop, roofing, pimping (Russian lyady) ...

          I read the comments .... Yours finished off .. It’s true .. Tosca su .. and green ... Some slogans. Eat .. But in fact, who will grab more .. Like Grebenshchikov: ".. I look at this is the case in the old Russian melancholy ... "
          You can’t sell. Oh, you can’t ... Believe me, nobody sells new technologies to us, only junk. And do not flatter yourself that they will not copy. Copy, how else! And in five or seven years they will do even better. We ourselves copied ( remember the story of B-25?), and then you caught up with and overtook. Because the government was smart, and not the nouveau riches that are now ...
        2. old man54
          old man54 8 May 2013 19: 45
          0
          to feel !! Is that really all?
      2. svp67
        svp67 April 16 2013 08: 27
        +2
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        Pay for the alliance. Maybe China will immediately begin to pay tribute,


        Oh, how I did not want to, I would like to slide down to that. Although history says that everyone to whom Russia paid tribute, to put it mildly, "ended badly ..."
    2. Kyrgyz
      Kyrgyz April 16 2013 08: 09
      +3
      Quote: svp67
      And not who did not think that "alliance" has to be paid. Although that doesn't color our guide either

      And no one thought that China has the technologies we need to achieve, which we will spend years and money on, China will provide them faster, albeit for money, maybe they are stolen but not stolen by us but what we need.
      1. svp67
        svp67 April 16 2013 08: 25
        0
        And no one thought that China has the technologies we need to achieve, which we will spend years and money on, China will provide them faster, albeit for money, maybe they are stolen but not stolen by us but what we need.


        Then it is "exchange" and then I am "FOR", but on condition that it is worthwhile. And then China, which is not a month, then "pleases" the world with new developments, by "pure coincidence" very similar to what was developed in the USSR, but in our country it is not very ...
      2. mark1
        mark1 April 16 2013 08: 52
        +2
        Quote: Kyrgyz
        And no one thought that China has the technologies we need to achieve, which we will spend years and money on, China will provide them faster, albeit for money, maybe they are stolen but not stolen by us but what we need.

        This may be true if we intend to pursue a policy similar to that of China regarding the intellectual property of others. In general, buying up a stolen act is a criminal offense.
      3. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov April 16 2013 10: 07
        +2
        Quote: Kyrgyz

        And no one thought that China has the technology we need,

        For example?
        1. fzr1000
          fzr1000 April 16 2013 13: 08
          +1
          Microelectronics at least.
  5. evgenii67
    evgenii67 April 16 2013 07: 55
    +8
    Hello everyone! I read the article, some are not accurate and the author's mistakes, but not the essence. What we have, from about 15 years old, we will start selling China the best fighter of Russia today, which it will be in 15, when the PAK FA appears on the promises (although not a fact, it will probably be 16-17 at best and how much more will be finalized) most likely the Su-35 in 15 will remain the best in Russia. It is sad that Russia can only offer for export resources and its best military technologies, which are most necessary, but we export money, profits. China, and that China, they quickly learn, progress, one day they will learn to copy both the Su-35 and engines In the end, copies will be of good quality, especially since our "patriots" can help in the transfer of technology, which will speed up the quality and time of copying.
  6. Mitek
    Mitek April 16 2013 08: 02
    +6
    They won’t be taught by the Chinas .... But how much technology can they merge ????
    1. Kyrgyz
      Kyrgyz April 16 2013 08: 16
      0
      Quote: Mitek
      They won’t be taught by the Chinas .... But how much technology can they merge ????

      What a strange perception - trade in resources is bad, trade in high-tech products is bad. Millions of Toyota were brought to Russia, but they didn’t copy anything, Chinese copies of Toyota are deplorable, I am sure that copies of more complex products are even more deplorable, submarines and aircraft carriers are a good example of this with aviation, and the same is simply more hidden. China works for which licenses have been acquired, and what has been finalized based on the acquired licenses.
      1. Nayhas
        Nayhas April 16 2013 09: 05
        +2
        Because they do not trade in technologies, but products of these technologies.
        1. Kyrgyz
          Kyrgyz April 16 2013 13: 40
          +1
          Quote: Nayhas
          Because they do not trade in technologies, but products of these technologies.

          In the article, it is about selling a technology product and not about the technology itself
          1. ABV
            ABV April 16 2013 17: 11
            +1
            Quote: Kyrgyz
            Quote: Nayhas
            Because they do not trade in technologies, but products of these technologies.

            In the article, it is about selling a technology product and not about the technology itself


            that's it! what kind of panic ?? what's the point of making a copy? Of what? from papier-mâché you can make a copy .... we need materials, production and processing technologies. And this is a completely different calico and nobody is going to transfer technology to them. they’ve been trying to make their engine for a long time ... so what? copied, but what's the point? the resource is hundreds of times lower --- there is no production technology, including turbine blades (this is generally beyond the limits of complexity) ...
  7. Gemar
    Gemar April 16 2013 08: 05
    13
    Professor, it’s clear that you only translated. BUT! Why publish an article in which there are no links to official sources in the government. Again, the people are upset that they sold the Su-35 to China. However, the fact of the sale has not yet been confirmed.
    Apparently, a mutually acceptable compromise was reached.

    And what is this ... gossip ??? Or maybe drunk nonsense ??? Apparently ... maybe ... it seems ... Enough to nightmare our patriots! stop
    PS If Putin sells Su-35 to China, I will make a Voodoo doll, call her Vova and ... am
    1. Professor
      April 16 2013 08: 35
      0
      However, the fact of the sale has not yet been confirmed.

      It is difficult to call a source of information pro-Russian, but I have no doubt in its reliability. Caught on minor inaccuracies, but not on greater lies. hi
      1. smirnov
        smirnov April 16 2013 09: 53
        +1
        "
        Caught on minor inaccuracies, but not on greater lies.
        For your fellow tribesmen this is a common thing ...
        1. Professor
          April 16 2013 11: 27
          0
          Drink some water from the tap and calm down, the American resource. fool
          1. Gemar
            Gemar April 16 2013 18: 10
            0
            Quote: Professor
            American resource.

            And then the trust of your opponent has increased many times! laughing
          2. old man54
            old man54 8 May 2013 19: 52
            0
            but I have already decided that Masad is the source :)))
      2. Mairos
        Mairos April 16 2013 10: 20
        0
        Hmmm .. no matter how the quantity has gone into quality. )))
    2. AK-47
      AK-47 April 16 2013 08: 40
      0
      Quote: Gamar
      ... the fact of the sale has not yet been confirmed.

      Smoke without fire does not happen.

      ... I’ll make a Voodoo doll, I’ll call her Vova ...

      And write a complaint to sportloto.
      1. Gemar
        Gemar April 16 2013 18: 08
        0
        Quote: AK-47
        And write a complaint to sportloto.

        No! I’m better in the old way ... Fortunately, you don’t have to do a wig for the doll! It was harder with Yeltsin. No.
        And voodoo magic will be stronger than your sarcasm! wink
      2. antiaircrafter
        antiaircrafter April 16 2013 18: 57
        +1
        Quote: AK-47
        write a complaint to sportloto.

        Complaints must be written to the League of Sexual Minorities.
  8. Svatdevostator
    Svatdevostator April 16 2013 08: 08
    +1
    The Chinese do not need the su-35, they need technology, it would be foolish to sell them to the Chinese and then fight on the arms market with cheaper copies stop
    1. Kyrgyz
      Kyrgyz April 16 2013 08: 20
      +1
      Quote: Svatdevostator
      it would be foolish to sell them to the Chinese and then fight on the arms market with cheaper copies

      There is an example where we fight with them in aviation?
      They are mainly competitors in the small arms market, but there a number of licenses were transferred to them legally and in full.
      1. Svatdevostator
        Svatdevostator April 16 2013 12: 57
        +1
        It's all a matter of time.
        1. Kyrgyz
          Kyrgyz April 16 2013 13: 41
          +1
          Quote: Svatdevostator
          It's all a matter of time.

          a lot of time has passed since China mastered tank building, but we don’t intersect there either
  9. Per se.
    Per se. April 16 2013 08: 09
    +3
    Traders dollar-headed, as if in a hurry to sell everything before leaving. For the sake of momentary benefits, not worrying about the consequences, it is clear that China has created little competition for us on our own clones. Our Air Force will wait, but the Chinese army cannot wait.
  10. Ragnarek
    Ragnarek April 16 2013 08: 10
    +2
    Well, probably you need to sell in the export configuration, so that new products are minimized
  11. Avenger711
    Avenger711 April 16 2013 08: 11
    +1
    Already pulled up by these fake articles. angry
    1. smirnov
      smirnov April 16 2013 10: 32
      +1
      Third in ten days on the sale of China SU-35
  12. UFO
    UFO April 16 2013 08: 14
    0
    ALL hi ... We are already openly peeing in the face under the fable "everything is fine, beautiful marquise ....". And what about Rogozin and Shoigu? belay
    1. Rustiger
      Rustiger April 16 2013 09: 27
      +5
      Quote: UFO
      And that Rogozin

      Rogozin was deigned to dine yesterday in the dining car of the train with Gaster. In uncle Gena Nedrishchenko's pomp. At the same time we checked all the "guests of our beloved" for head lice and diarrhea! winked
      Didn't seem to like it, came out dissatisfied and "slightly" surprised. On the lobeshnik, a creeping line, the thought ran through "this is where I got to, because Georgich told me - Send Dima better vooon to that cheburechka".
    2. FATEMOGAN
      FATEMOGAN April 16 2013 11: 58
      0
      Quote: UFO
      ALL. We are already openly pissing in person

      Maybe they write to you, who knows how you like to spend your leisure time, but you don’t need to, to declare this on behalf of ALL workers hi
  13. Vanek
    Vanek April 16 2013 08: 15
    +5
    Everything is for sale in Russia

    And then we do not know damn.
  14. Rustiger
    Rustiger April 16 2013 08: 54
    +2
    Selling / trading is of course necessary! I have no words! With whom and with what is another question.
    But when will the illusions disappear from the handlers. Since childhood, phrases like “the first word is more expensive than the second”, “didn’t give a word - be strong, but gave it - then hold on”, etc., were specifically hammered into our memory, but this does not work with Asians. This is known best of all by those "shuttle traders" whom all sorts of yellow-top "Brothers" have already hurled (maybe more than once). The basic rule of an Asian official is that TRUE intent should not be read on his face. Sold them one sample - they copied, sold another - they copied again; they were shocked with a finger - they either wrinkled their faces guiltily, or rushed into offense. And let's believe and check. ... ... fool
    What is the difference between the modern Kitaisovsky GOODS and the former Soviet ones? In our old samples of products, reliability and durability were paramount, with a MAXIMUM UNLIMITED lifetime. Even to the detriment of the "gypsy shine of the packaging" and material consumption. The Kitaisi have absolutely no intention of using a motto like "German quality" Why? It is necessary to maintain the desire of the buyer to purchase the product, even in such a way as its failure after a short time.
    On the example of radio components. What is the difference between two processors with the same characteristics, but at times different in price? LOADED RESOURCE. One product, without loss of functionality with a calculated load, one amount of time (year), another month. Any of us will name hundreds of examples from life, but remember Chinese thermoses released 30-20 years ago. Inconvenient, heavy, but still used.
    That is why this principle should not be "adopted" by our producers who are "korefanischiy" with the Chinese.
    There is one product on your market, for "friends" (yopt) SIMILAR, BUT ANOTHER DISPOSABLE. Let not for a year, but for 5-7 years. And there we will promise something new for them, and for the rescued babos and for us
    Something like this . . .
  15. Hikar
    Hikar April 16 2013 08: 55
    +1
    Stop draining the Chinese technology ... but who am I talking to
  16. mogus
    mogus April 16 2013 09: 03
    +3
    I looked at the original article, a horror story for a Western man in the style of "weapons-grade uranium / plutonium is sold in Russia at the price of BMW" (earlier, on other sites in polemics, such a belief was already encountered).
  17. snow779
    snow779 April 16 2013 09: 22
    0
    Ooh! It wouldn’t have plagued our technologies with our own garbage ...
  18. engineer74
    engineer74 April 16 2013 09: 32
    +3
    "The use of jet engine and fly-by-wire active flight control will allow the aircraft to be even more maneuverable than the Su-30 (which was converted from the Su-27 to be super-maneuverable)." wassat
    Dear Professor, was it in the original? Then the author, to put it mildly, is poorly versed in the topic. Thank you for the translation, but it looks like you wasted your time.
    1. TRAFFIC
      TRAFFIC April 16 2013 10: 39
      +2
      In the original so
      The use of many thrusters and fly-by-wire will produce an aircraft even more maneuverable than Su-30s (which were Su-27s tweaked to be extremely agile)
      So think about how to translate "use of many thrusters". laughing
      1. engineer74
        engineer74 April 16 2013 11: 00
        +1
        RS UVT and EMDSU, it seems, it turns out that only EMDSU on the Su-27 is present from birth. smile
      2. Professor
        April 16 2013 11: 31
        0
        I already thought: use of many thrusters and fly-by-wire = The use of reactive control system engines and remote active flight control
        1. engineer74
          engineer74 April 16 2013 12: 16
          +4
          "fly-by-wire" - "flight by wire" is the accepted name of EDSU without mechanical connection, and "thruster" - "rotary thruster, thrusters", and PGO and UHT can be called ... what
          1. TRAFFIC
            TRAFFIC April 16 2013 14: 17
            +1
            UVT can be called
            that's it, why not write trust vectoring ability?
            1. engineer74
              engineer74 April 16 2013 14: 41
              +1
              Maybe he wrote about automated thrust control + UHT + aerodynamics (I don't remember what it is called in science)? In general, "Liverpool is written, Manchester is read" © .... smile
  19. nod739
    nod739 April 16 2013 09: 34
    0
    it remains to be hoped that the PAK FA is better than the Su-35 in some ways, although it’s still so long for the T-50 production model
  20. pinecone
    pinecone April 16 2013 09: 36
    -1
    What about a spaceport on the Chinese border?
  21. LaGlobal
    LaGlobal April 16 2013 09: 38
    0
    Everything is for sale in Russia


    This is a long known fact. But why sell everything from military equipment ????? Well, I don’t understand such a decision of the leadership! Give at least the slightest explanation on this fact.
  22. vadson
    vadson April 16 2013 09: 39
    0
    read yesterday
    The Chinese military resource airforceworld.com published an extensive article on how negotiations were conducted with the USSR, then Russia on the purchase of Su-27 fighters and a production line for their assembly (the material is given with some abbreviations - “VP”).



    A favorable factor in the success of negotiations on the acquisition of Su-27 fighters was the warming of relations between the two countries after the visit of M.S. Gorbachev to China. The subsequent deterioration of the Russian economy, which experienced a shortage of hard currency, led to an expansion of the arms trade. The Chinese economy, on the contrary, has demonstrated high growth rates. In 1992, Russia and China reached an agreement on the sale / purchase of Su-27 in the amount of $ 1,8 billion.



    On September 17, 1990, a Chinese military delegation visited the Kubinka airfield near Moscow, which was used to test military aircraft. According to some reports, the then existing Soviet Union recommended that China purchase MiG-29 fighters, but China rejected this offer. The Chinese clearly knew that this aircraft was a “low-grade front-line fighter” compared to the Su-27. The Su-27 was equipped with an electro-remote control system (although not as perfect as on Western fighters), but the MiG-29 was equipped with an archaic hydromechanical control system.



    The AL-31F engine of the Su-27 fighter had a greater thrust (as well as better specific thrust) and a service life than the RD-33 of the MiG-29 fighter.



    In November 1990, the parties reached an agreement on the supply of the first batch of Su-27SK fighters. This news shocked the West. On June 27, 1992, the first batch of 12 aircraft (eight single-seat Su-27SK and four double-seat Su-27UBK) flew to China from the Jed airfield of the Trans-Baikal Military District. In 1995, an agreement was reached on the supply of a second batch, but already improved Su-27SMK in the amount of 24 aircraft. This version had a refueling rod in the air (on the left side of the bow), two pylons for suspending external fuel tanks of 500 l each, and an internal fuel reserve increased to 9965 kg (standard Su-27S contained 9400 kg in the internal tanks - “VP” ) Without refueling in the air, the Su-27SMK could fly from Beijing to Singapore, with one refueling the fighter traveled 5200 km (flight duration 7 hours). The maximum mass of the combat load was increased from 4000 kg to 8000.







    Russia did not want to sell the license and the Su-27 production line, but China put forward an ultimatum that in this case would purchase no more than 48 fighters. In 1993, Russia agreed to provide technical documentation, a license and a production line for the Su-27. In November 1993, the China Aviation Industry Corporation and the PLA General Staff signed an agreement to create their own version of the Su-27 and its production. The right to these works was obtained by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation. Russia pledged to provide technical assistance in organizing licensed production.



    The localization of Su-27 production required China to master advanced production processes. In 1996, Russia signed a contract for the supply of 200 car kits worth $ 2,5 billion. At the first stage, the Shenyang plant mastered the assembly of ready-made car kits and imported equipment (the first batch of 24 cars). The situation with Taiwan escalated, and the PLA air forces needed a more advanced Su-27 model (there were rumors that Russia supplied several Su-27 combat air defense regiments as ready-made planes).
  23. Belogor
    Belogor April 16 2013 09: 39
    0
    Maybe this is an unspoken exchange of technologies, because easily no one will share technologies. What could have been repeatedly verified by my own experience.
  24. vadson
    vadson April 16 2013 09: 40
    +2
    Thanks to the efforts of Chinese technologists, a large number of titanium alloys were applied to the Su-27 licensed, electron beam welding of chassis elements made of high-strength structural steel and other advanced technologies were mastered. Almost 10 thousand glider elements needed welding. In addition to traditional types of welding, diffusion, vacuum, laser, plasma and electric arc types of welding technologies were used. In general, the transition to the production of licensed Su-27s, which received the Chinese designation J-11, was quick. Issues related to the production of weapons for this aircraft were being addressed.



    On December 16, 1998, Air Force test pilot Fu Guoxiang lifted the first J-11 into the sky. The leaders of the Communist Party of China personally observed this flight, who regarded it as a "first victory."
    1. Alan
      Alan April 16 2013 10: 53
      +2
      interesting fu Gosyan According to the rulers .... laughing tongue
    2. Argon
      Argon April 16 2013 11: 03
      0
      What kind of licensed production are we talking about? The license to manufacture the Su-27, China has never been transferred
      1. Avenger711
        Avenger711 April 16 2013 14: 38
        +2
        It was transmitted, if you do not own the question, then better keep quiet.
  25. xmike
    xmike April 16 2013 09: 41
    +1
    Ours will sell su 35, knowing full well that they are giving some technologies ... It seems to me that the stake is on financing PAKFA even through the transfer of "outdated" technologies.
    If in 5-10 years they establish the production of su 35, then we will establish the production of PAKFA ...
    The advantage is ours, and no technological parity is expected with China.
    1. wave
      wave April 16 2013 10: 14
      +1
      What kind of thoughts and words do not try to find, if only to justify again for themselves another fact of selling
    2. Praetorian
      Praetorian April 16 2013 18: 50
      0
      The advantage is for those who will have more than one of this technique. If we have one and a half to two dozen pack fas, and they have one hundred and two hundred su-35s, will technological superiority and lack of parity help us?
  26. wave
    wave April 16 2013 10: 04
    -2
    Yes, let them sell ... This means only one thing - the Su-35 is a well-promoted, promoted and advertised product that does not fundamentally differ from the Su-27. In other words, the Su-35 was "inflated" for export. If there were innovations in it, it would be forbidden to sell!
  27. Black Colonel
    Black Colonel April 16 2013 10: 21
    0
    "... just by chance they bear some resemblance to Russian fighters"... Well, it turns out! Well, nothing can be done about it! ("I'm not guilty, he came by himself!")
  28. silver_roman
    silver_roman April 16 2013 10: 52
    0
    It's all sad. We ourselves are growing our potential "rival". Apparently many have forgotten the events that took place on Damansky Island, when these children cut the heads of our border guards. 58 then our soldiers were killed.
    While we are strong, we are respected. China is one of the most ancient nations and its imperial motives can be understood. In addition, a long time ago a huge amount of literature has been published and published in China, aimed at uniting the nation in the struggle with EXACTLY RUSSIANS! So go ahead ... let's put a TT in their hand, direct the barrel to our head and press the trigger! fool
    1. FATEMOGAN
      FATEMOGAN April 16 2013 12: 15
      +2
      Quote: silver_roman
      So go ahead ... let's put a TT in their hand, direct the barrel to our head and press the trigger!

      Yes, wait ahead of time to be afraid, the article is Amer’s crap, and by the way do not remind who handed over the Su-33 to China, after the Russian leadership refused to sell it, or maybe remember the hovercraft Bizon, whose documentation Ukraine again without agreement with the owner sold this development, so do not la la poplar.
  29. Zlu
    Zlu April 16 2013 11: 18
    +2
    It seems to me that the main thing is to make sure that they buy all 34 destroyers. And then after all we put 2 they will refuse. Their goal will be achieved.
  30. ATATA
    ATATA April 16 2013 11: 31
    +4
    The article was embossed by the PROFESSOR, i.e. either he is so worried about the Russian aviation industry, or really wants to push us and upset us.
    In the first I doubt, in the second I’m almost sure, and you are all being fooled by this subtle trolling. fool
    To reassure you a little, I want to ask one question.
    Why do you think that some key technologies will not be removed on the SU-35 sold?
    Simply put, most likely, these SU-35 will be simplified, export versions.
    Simply put, if you give a simple graphite pencil in your hands, you cannot make it SAMIif you don’t know HOW?
    Stop tearing your hair and sprinkling ash on your head. hi
    1. Professor
      April 16 2013 11: 39
      -2
      The article was embossed by the PROFESSOR, i.e. either he is so worried about the Russian aviation industry, or really wants to push us and upset us.
      In the first I doubt

      And you do not hesitate. As I know, the CIA pays for trolling. bully

      Simply put, most likely, these SU-35 will be simplified, export versions.

      How much easier? The engines of the reactive control system and active remote control flight will be removed from the export version, the planes will be unscrewed, the keels and the fuselage will be filed. What else remains, the Chinese do the aviation science themselves.
      1. ATATA
        ATATA April 16 2013 11: 45
        +6
        Quote: Professor
        How much easier? The engines of the reactive control system and active remote control flight will be removed from the export version, the planes will be unscrewed, the keels and the fuselage will be filed. What else remains, the Chinese do the aviation science themselves.

        Enough cheap banter!
        It is designed for children.
        You write about what no belmez do not understand what kind of
        jet control engines
        ?

        Essentially answer. Are you sure that SU-35 sold to China will be the same as for the Russian Air Force?
        1. Professor
          April 16 2013 12: 03
          -3
          Enough of a cheap banter!
          It is designed for children.

          Persuaded. Reveal your thoughts in an adult way. What exactly will be removed from the export version of the Su-35? wink

          You write about what no belmez do not understand what kind of
          jet control engines?

          Materiel, dear, materiel!

          Essentially answer. Are you sure that SU-35 sold to China will be the same as for the Russian Air Force?

          Except for not significant changes. I already wrote that China does not need Russian avionics, but they need such an outstanding platform.

          PS
          I run away for a salary at the CIA, and then the cash desk is closed early (Ramat David). hi
          1. ATATA
            ATATA April 16 2013 12: 04
            +3
            Quote: Professor
            Materiel, dear, materiel!

            Enlighten the esteemed PROFESSOR.
            Maybe it's an emf, or a controlled thrust vector?
          2. TUMAN
            TUMAN April 16 2013 13: 05
            +1
            Quote: Professor
            Materiel, dear, materiel!

            Dear Professor! Do not want to change something in your troll? It’s not interesting, from such a highly respected expert in the field of military technology, I want to see something new, and not a constant hackneyed record. hi
            1. Kasym
              Kasym April 16 2013 14: 06
              +4
              Good day to all ! ATATA, TUMAN. Myzhiki, I don’t understand something, Professor just translated the article - he did the job. For example, I am interested in what the West writes about us, about our military equipment. He will stop translating, can you do this for us? What pounced on something? hi
              1. TUMAN
                TUMAN April 16 2013 15: 29
                +3
                Quote: Kasym
                Good day to all ! ATATA, TUMAN. Myzhiki, I don’t understand something, Professor just translated the article - he did the job. For example, I am interested in what the West writes about us, about our military equipment. He will stop translating, can you do this for us? What pounced on something?

                Good day to you too! Do not worry, he will not stop, he receives money for this, and a lot of nishtyaks from the Ministry of Absorption of Israel.
                1. Professor
                  April 16 2013 19: 44
                  -3
                  ! Do not worry, he will not stop, he receives money for this, and a lot of nishtyaks from the Ministry of Absorption of Israel.

                  Do not tell me where you can get a lot of nishtyakov from the Ministry of Absorption of Israel?
              2. Ascetic
                Ascetic April 16 2013 22: 05
                +4
                Quote: Kasym
                He will stop translating, can you do this for us? What pounced on something?


                Let him translate but don’t try to insert false conjectures and falsification in two words of truth, for example, from the last PGRK tires purchased abroad. And in general, no one cares about the life of a Russian soldier, the technological level of the Russian army which should buy the best abroad is best in Israel and the states, realize their wretchedness. experience guilt for the mediocre leaders and backward industry .. Well, you , Kasim, if you want, learn the materiel under the strict guidance of this Consultant - translator.
                1. Kasym
                  Kasym April 17 2013 21: 36
                  +1
                  Stanislav, hello! Apparently, the confrontation between the Professor and other colleagues is not the first day - I'm not in kurse. But in this case, he did not start a polemic, if you look objectively.
                  "Well, and you, Kasym, if you want to study the materiel under the clear hands of this Consultant - translator" - thank you, Stanislav, I don’t want to - please !!!
            2. Professor
              April 16 2013 19: 46
              -2
              Do not want to change something in your troll?

              I do not want. Do not like add me to the Blacklist. hi And let the lazy people tear off their ass from the chair and ... however, this is no longer necessary, even if they look at Google.
              1. TUMAN
                TUMAN April 16 2013 23: 14
                0
                Quote: Professor
                Do not like add me to the Blacklist.

                I do not want! From the principle. just because it is your idea! Recommend this to Karisha, he is a fan of the black list! hi
    2. Andy
      Andy April 16 2013 11: 41
      0
      they build planes themselves, and you say that you don’t know how. Let them take it not by quality but by quantity
  31. Andy
    Andy April 16 2013 11: 40
    0
    it is understandable. in Cyprus they have run out of money, it is necessary to correct the "budget"
  32. Takashi
    Takashi April 16 2013 11: 53
    -2
    Advertisement: Selling Homeland. Is free.
    1. Cyanide
      Cyanide April 16 2013 19: 47
      -3
      I already sold in the 92nd. And I recommend you.
  33. cat-hipopotamus
    cat-hipopotamus April 16 2013 12: 41
    +6
    Who are we talking to ??? Does anyone hear us on the TOP ??? All normal people agree, SHOULD be sold to China 35th, NOT NECESSARY !!! Not any Chinese assurances of refusing to steal technology and copy will not be saved, they will be cut to the screw when they receive the first aircraft !!!! I have lived in Ussuriysk (Primorsky Krai) for over 35 years, I have spoken to the Chinese like any Far Easterner, every day, there is only one conclusion - they are deceiving, they are trying to deceive, they are cunning, etc. Do you want to know the truth about the people, communicate with ordinary people, he is the face of the nation, and so, without exaggeration, the Chinese are smiling at your face. but it is worth losing vigilance, you will get a knife in the back. Well, damn it’s stupid to sell Sushki to the Chinese, it’s like to arm Hitler, he even signed a non-attack pact and even traded on June 21, 1941. As soon as China feels powerful enough in every way, it will calmly trample on Russia. Siberia and the Far East have been interested in him for a long time, and they believe that this is their territory !!!! Well, apparently the sale of these Sushka to someone's pocket is great ..... there is no patriotism and common sense in the minds of the country's leaders ((((((((((((((
    1. nikolas 83
      nikolas 83 April 16 2013 19: 17
      +2
      I completely agree. You can’t sell our modern weapons to China. Sooner or later they will climb to Russia. We will have nothing to answer. request
  34. Naval
    Naval April 16 2013 12: 51
    +2
    Do not forget that China is learning fast, and the fact that quality is still lame will soon be corrected. Skills and experience are gained, technologies are polished. In addition, they have a clear goal and desire to achieve it, and there are no Serdyukovs and Vasilyevs, etc., but this is a big +. Therefore, do not underestimate China, selling them technology today we risk standing in line. to buy from them tomorrow. Europe refused to sell us OPEL so that there would be no technology leakage, although the crisis was pushing them.
  35. leon-iv
    leon-iv April 16 2013 13: 21
    +2
    Proff fit threw a cho but the websiteer is acting. They will sell and okay, the question will just be there. And while there is no contract there is no conversation. Remember they also wanted to buy Tu-22M3.
  36. aleksandr.k
    aleksandr.k April 16 2013 13: 34
    -1
    The Putin team would be ready to sell us too, but then the feeder will end, and for now they will bring down education and medicine. What went from EBN will not do anything good for people.
  37. ed65b
    ed65b April 16 2013 13: 41
    +2
    China plans to steal their manufacturing technology as soon as it can figure out how to deal with the exotic manufacturing skills necessary to create these engines.

    Where infa, the Chinese reported.
  38. Goldmitro
    Goldmitro April 16 2013 14: 09
    -1
    Everyone knows what they want to say when they say - a monkey with a grenade. Arming China with modern military equipment, Russia contributes to a similar situation. Is it not possible that Russia, with its own hands, is contributing to the accelerated transformation of China into a powerful military power, unpredictable so much that quite unexpectedly (as history shows) it can turn out to be our OPPONENT? Is the instantaneous economic benefit of selling our modern military equipment to China such a prospect?
    1. ATATA
      ATATA April 16 2013 15: 50
      +1
      Quote: Goldmitro
      Doesn’t it turn out that Russia with its own hands contributes to the accelerated transformation of China into a powerful military power

      No.
  39. Harleone
    Harleone April 16 2013 15: 42
    0
    I do not understand how the Chinese can easily copy technology. Are there really no laws or restrictions? Well this is actually plagiarism, theft of intellectual property.
  40. Sokrat
    Sokrat April 16 2013 17: 45
    0
    At one time, Khrushchev made a great mistake: he presented the Chinese with the technology of manufacturing nuclear weapons and not only handed over the blueprints, but with the help of Soviet specialists built a plant for the production of weapons-grade plutonium. How it all ended we know.
    1. old man54
      old man54 8 May 2013 20: 10
      0
      Well, I don’t know, I haven’t heard that they would be selling technology for the production of nuclear weapons. Rather, there is infa that they her, this technology was stolen from us like that.
  41. Ser 47RUS
    Ser 47RUS April 16 2013 18: 37
    -3
    Quote: Civil
    Yes, even on a hundred pages of the contract, indicate "CANNOT COPY" the Chinese do not care.

    Well done, they pull to their country! And Russia is only pulling from ...
  42. zinander
    zinander April 16 2013 18: 46
    0
    It is ridiculous to demand from China guarantees not to copy technology. They gave a word, they took a word .... request
  43. Dimanrus86
    Dimanrus86 April 16 2013 20: 48
    0
    China has repeatedly given the floor and still copied, you can not sell advanced technology, even if so far to a friendly country.
  44. WIN969
    WIN969 April 16 2013 22: 33
    -1
    We give them technology means giving, and in return, that, a recipe for Chinese noodles. Soon we will awaken the territories of the Russian Federation to them for factories, where they will collect these SU 35. Maybe Putin and Medvedev will explain what the matter is. Or does China want to join the Eurasian Union?
  45. olegff68
    olegff68 April 16 2013 23: 46
    0
    If this is still true, then one can only marvel at the greed, unprincipledness and narrow-mindedness of modern Russian nouveau riche !!!
  46. afpaz
    afpaz April 17 2013 04: 45
    0
    What kind of hysteria? You can't only trade in oil. With the planned time frame, the deal is extremely beneficial for Russia. "T-50" is being finalized, and "Su-35" is a promising export product. If it is in service with us and buys China, then others will also buy. There will be something to develop our aviation industry.
  47. aszzz888
    aszzz888 April 17 2013 07: 12
    0
    The adoption of the T-50 is planned for 2013-2015, despite the fact that the beginning of development is October - 1980. And the fact that China will buy the Su-35 is definitely yes.
  48. cat-hipopotamus
    cat-hipopotamus April 17 2013 11: 06
    0
    Here is an article about honest Chinese plans and realities with regard to Russia, a little bit overkill in the number of Chinese, but I think not much. Http://warfiles.ru/show-28957-kitaycy-navodnyayut-rossiyu.html
  49. cherkas.oe
    cherkas.oe April 18 2013 22: 10
    +1
    Quote: Professor
    I run away for a salary at the CIA, and then the cash desk is closed early (Ramat David).

    From well done, from honestly in Israeli.
  50. avant-garde
    avant-garde 8 May 2013 21: 58
    +1
    rubbish heading ((((I can name two components that are not for sale on the fly: This is the HONOR and ADVANTAGE of the Russian Federation !!!! Think affrtor you write!